Rethinking Mental Health: Human Connection, Healing, and the UnDoctor Approach with Dr. Fred Moss

In this episode of the Making Hope Happen Radio Show, host Erin Brinker welcomes Dr. Fred Moss, a board-certified psychiatrist known for his unconventional approach to mental health. Dr. Moss shares his journey from traditional psychiatry to advocating for holistic healing, emphasizing the transformative power of genuine human connection over medication and diagnosis. The conversation explores the limitations of psychiatric labels, the societal factors contributing to mental distress, and the importance of practices like gratitude, meditation, service, and creativity for optimal well-being. Dr. Moss also discusses the role of trauma, the epidemic of loneliness, and how aligning with one’s authentic self can lead to profound healing. Listeners are encouraged to rethink mental health, embrace connection, and discover practical steps for personal growth and resilience.

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Episode Transcript

Erin Brinker (00:00):
Erin, welcome everyone to the making hope

(00:11):
happen radio show. I am ErinBrinker, and I'm so glad to have
you with me today. Got a reallyinteresting guest for you, so
I've had a lot of doctors on theshow from people who specialize
in women's health to men'shealth, to, you know, mental
health, to all of the differentkinds and some talking about
issues impacting physicians. Andtoday I have a psychiatrist who

(00:34):
has a, well, let's call itunorthodox view of mental
health, and stick with me. It isreally an interesting
conversation, and let's getstarted without any delay,
except that I do want to saywhat I what I often do, what I'm
grateful for. I'm grateful forthe fall. Yes, it's slightly
cooler. It's still warm outside,but slightly cooler than it was.

(00:55):
It's October. It is officiallyfall before we know it will be
in the holidays. Whoo, so allright without any further delay.
Let's get started. Well, I amvery pleased to welcome to the
show Dr Fred moss. He's aseasoned board certified
psychiatrist, and he boasts anillustrious career spanning over
four decades. His journey beganin Detroit, inspired early on by

(01:17):
an elder brother in the sameprofession, his commitment to
holistic healing was furthercemented during his tenure as a
child care worker, emphasizingthe essence of genuine
communication. A proud graduateof Wayne State University, Dr
moss pursued his medical studiesat Northwestern University. He
specialized in Psychiatry at theUniversity of Cincinnati, and

(01:38):
broadened his expertise withChild, Adolescent fellowship,
further branching intogeriatrics, forensics and drug
rehabilitation, empathy,curiosity and authenticity
characterize Dr Moss' approach.
His dedicated dedication, ratherto offering individualized care,
shines through as he dives deepinto his vast repertoire of
interventions to find bespokesolutions. Dr Fred Moss, welcome

(02:01):
to the show.

Dr. Fred Moss (02:05):
Thank you. It's really great to be here. I look
forward to our conversation.
Thanks for having me on.

Erin Brinker (02:09):
So first, tell me about yourself, how you ended up
going into psychiatry. What youknow this family member, an
older brother or sister and sokind of what, what drew you into
psychiatry,

Dr. Fred Moss (02:21):
yeah. So, yeah, we'll talk about that. I think
that I it started from thisfirst second that I was born,
and so I really do mean that I Iwas I was born into a family of
chaos and disarray and a fairamount of conflict between my
two brothers and my parents, andthey were 10 and 14 years old
when I was born, and in my job,and it was even preconceived

(02:43):
like before I arrived, is was tobring joy and happiness, like we
had talked about before, joy andhappiness and unity to a family
that was in this chaos, disarrayand conflict.

Erin Brinker (02:52):
Okay, that's a tall order for an infant or
anyone.

Dr. Fred Moss (02:56):
Yeah, not that big a deal. When I arrived, I
just hit the time card and off Igo. You know, a bundle of joy is
how I came out, and I was, like,fun and cute and smart and easy
to go with, and, you know, funto listen to and fun to fun to
watch. And, you know, apparentlyI did a pretty good job for a
couple years. I think mybrothers wouldn't say that. I've
been continuous, but I've donepretty good, you know, pretty

(03:17):
good early on, of reallycreating that sense of unity.
And early on in my years, Iremember being in my playpen and
watching my parents and mybrothers interact with each
other, like watching them talkto each other, and feeling like,
I wish I could do that. I'm not.
I'm too much of a little boy. Ican't quite do that. Where do
you learn how to do that? And Iheard about this thing called
school that that would probablybe a place where you might learn

(03:39):
that. So I looked forward tostarting school, and by the time
I started school, I was prettyprecocious, given that, of
course, I had these twobrothers, and I knew a little
bit about sex and drugs and rockand roll, and I knew about
things that you know, how towrite and how to read and how to
do simple math upon arrival inkindergarten, which was more
than most of my peers knew. Sothis led me being somewhat

(03:59):
aboard, if you will, like undera, you know, under under no one,
no one really required me to domuch more than I already had. So
under assigned, if you will, andI got by being bored, I really
and wanting to communicate. Iwas just a really talkative
little kid. And there's no, noteacher who ever forgot having

(04:21):
Dr, having Fred as a student.
Let's put it that way. And I wasreally looking to learn how to
communicate, and what I insteadwas learning, and I remember
being disappointed about thiswas, you know, sit down, be
quiet and do what I say was whatI was learning. So this is not
the essence of open discourse.
This is a way to, you know, getto the next grade. This was

(04:42):
disappointing, and I wonderedwhere I was going to learn. And
it seemed like I was learningmore outside of school than
inside of school, but maybe thejunior high would be the right
place. And so when I went tojunior high, was kind of
excited, like, this must bewhere the big kids learn. And
no, it got a little worse there,and then it got. Worse in high
school. But one thing thatdidn't get worse is I knew that
I commute, I could communicateoutside of school, so I

(05:04):
hitchhiked around. I rode mybike past the boundaries. I went
to places I wasn't necessarilyin. You know, encouraged to go
to by my family, just so I couldmeet new people and communicate.
That's what I wanted to do morethan anything. And when high
school was over, I spent, I hadspent a lot of time outside of
high school, during high school,for sure, and when high school

(05:26):
was over, I decided I'd givecollege a try. I had heard that,
you know, Ann Arbor and theUniversity of Michigan would be
a good place to go. And sureenough, I got myself into Ann
Arbor and was there for about ayear and a half, and then
dropped out because, mygoodness, Ann Arbor is a good
place to communicate, but notthe University of Michigan. And
so off I went again, and thistime I got on a bus as the

(05:48):
hitchhiker fool that I've beenin the past. I got on a bus,
took all my stuff, and took abus all the way to Berkeley,
California, where I would learnwhat my life was about. That was
Wow. So I spent that summer inBerkeley, and I did, in fact,
have a beautiful summer oflearning a lot about what my
life was about, but it wasn'treally sustainable. And there
was, you know, my family was alittle concerned about me,

(06:10):
which, retrospectively, I guessI could get but I wasn't very
concerned about me, but theytold me that there was this new
industry they thought I wouldhave a good aptitude for and
they wanted me to consider goingback to school and trying it
out. You may heard of theindustry. It was called
computers. And, you know, theonly computer that was in
Michigan was the one, indeed onAnn arbor's campus. It was like

(06:32):
a two, two acre facility calledthe computer building. And, you
know, I went back and I flewback. They gave me a flight
ticket. I flew back, and Istarted doing computers and
punch cards and batch jobsgalore, Up All Night in that
computer building, and it waslike, no, no, no. I get that I
could be good at this, but thisisn't what my life is going to

(06:53):
be about. I refuse, and Idropped out one more time. Now
this time I promised that therewould never be any way that I
would go back to doinguniversity or any kind of
conventional school again. And Itold my family that they knew
that, and they my mom told me Ihad to get a job. You know that
that's what moms do. So she gotme an application for a state
mental health facility foradolescent boys as a childcare

(07:16):
worker. And so in January of1980 is when I started being a
childcare worker, and I thoughtI would only last for about
three weeks when the orientationended. But on the fourth week,
my friend Paul, later became areally good friend, convinced me
that I should go try out thefloors and up to meadow view
five we went, and I was scared,but jeebus, yeah, I was so

(07:36):
scared. Man. Why? What wasscary? This wasn't going to work
out. And it worked out like,there I was, you know, I was
like, Okay, I'll go back onTuesday, I'll go back on
Wednesday, maybe I'll even lastlonger than three more weeks.
And I kept on going back, andbefore too long, I'd gone back
three weeks and three months.
And then, you know, I decidedthat I was actually pretty good,
because all I really had to dowas communicate with these

(07:58):
people, and that's what I reallywanted to do in the first place.
And all I had to do was nottreat them like they were any
worse or better than anybodyelse, or any privilege or not
privilege. None of that likejust be with these kids and
understand them and connect withthem, and, you know, resonate
with them and and you know,harmonize with them. And that's
what I did, and I got prettygood at that.

Erin Brinker (08:19):
What did you learn about yourself through that
process, because you're seeingkids who have likely experienced
some trauma, maybe they havemental health issues that that
also needed to be dealt with.
What did you learn aboutyourself as you were helping
them to kind of work throughtheir issues

Dr. Fred Moss (08:35):
that I wasn't very much different from them,
and none of us are. That's whatI really learned. So there's
this preconceived notion thatthey're, you know, they had it
worse, or something like that,and then we all have it rough,
you know. And the idea was thatI could relate to them along
every lines, just like theycould relate to each other. And
what I learned about myself isthat maybe there's nothing wrong
with me and maybe there'snothing wrong with them. We're
trying to get through this lifewithout a owner's manual,

(08:57):
without a recipe book, and we'rebumbling, stumbling and tumbling
all of us, and we're pretendinglike we know what we're doing.
If we do what most people do, wethink we must be doing something
right. And that wasn't reallythe case. These are great kids
who, you know, on nonpretentious children, as as I
was always intending, hoping tobe myself, and I could learn a

(09:18):
lot from them about how to howto interact. These are just kids
who found themselves living in astate mental health facility,
but they weren't much differentfrom the people living outside
of the state mental healthfacility, in fact. And you know,
they're just people who areassigned to living in that
setting.

Erin Brinker (09:34):
You know, we just, some people just are able to
keep their crazy hidden a littlebetter, but we all, all of us,
carry a bit a bit of crazy withus,

Dr. Fred Moss (09:40):
right? Not just a bit,

Erin Brinker (09:45):
okay, a lot, a lot

Dr. Fred Moss (09:47):
like all of it, like we think we actually know
what we're doing. And, you know,we really, we really feel that
way, especially if we getsupport from the outside world
that what we're doing is good,or what we're doing is right, or
what we're doing is noble, orwhatever we think. Then we think
we're really must be doingsomething well. But the truth
is, none of us really know whatwe're doing or why we're doing
it, not really. And I know youcan make a case. Yeah, I know

(10:09):
what I do, what I do. You know,like for me, I really am on a on
a mission about humanconnection. Because what I
really found then, and what Iknew when I was three, and what
I continue to know, maybe nowmore than ever is that there's
never been a medicine created.
There never been a treatmentcreated. There's never been
anything created that in theworld of healing that is more
profound and more effective andmore astonishing in its impact

(10:31):
than a human connection. So atthe heart of all healing is a
human connection. And that'swhat I was learning back then,
and that's what I've taken I'vetaken with me. And so when I
decided one more time to go backto school, because this time I
was going to be a psychiatrist,and my brother 14 years older
than me, he was already apsychiatrist, so I knew that

(10:53):
there was a pathway to do that,I went back to school one more
time with the sole intention ofjust holding my breath and
getting through another eight ornine years of school with, you
know, completing myundergraduate school, going to
medical medical school inChicago, and then coming out in
Cincinnati, and, you know, doingmy residency, and starting my
family and all of those things,I decided that that psychiatry

(11:16):
would be the place where I couldbe A representative of human
connection, despite the factthat psychiatry was headed in an
alter a totally alternativedirection, which was this whole
notion of Biological Psychiatry,or if there's something
uncomfortable in their life,it's about you, like there's
something wrong with you ifyou're uncomfortable, if there's
something wrong with you, if youhave you know, if you're moody,

(11:37):
if you're scared, if you'reanxious, if you're depressed, if
you're awkward, if you'redistracted, all of those things,
there's something, there must besomething so called wrong with
you. But that wasn't the case,and I really didn't like the
fact that it was being called achemical imbalance, because
frankly, that's been disprovenmany, many times.

Erin Brinker (11:56):
That has been debunked. They don't, they
there's, it's never been proventhat that that we have a
serotonin problem, even thoughthat's what the SSRIs are
ostensibly created to address.

Dr. Fred Moss (12:08):
Well, not really, and even they don't do what they
say they're going to do. Butyou're right. You know, it was
1987 when Prozac was introduced,and that's when the whole world
shifted on a dime. At thatmoment, that's when this whole
notion of Biological Psychiatryand chemical imbalance became
the real deal. And Prozac wasthe first SSRI, you know, the
grandma of them all. And it wason the cover of Newsweek, all by

(12:30):
itself. And when it was created,and that green and white
capsule, and there was talk,like very serious talk, about
the idea that it was a panacea,that it was, you know, going to
create happiness where happinesswasn't and and even that this
should go into the water systemsof the big cities like Los
Angeles and New York, was areally, very real conversation

(12:50):
about that. And you know, what'sreally sad about it is that we
don't blame a log for burning inthe fire. We live in a very
difficult life. And you know,judu Krishnamurthy said it,
well, I think the best I've everheard anyone else, which is said
it is no sign of mental healthto be well adjusted to a

(13:10):
profoundly sick society. Andwhen we really start looking at
that's what we're dealing withhere, a profoundly sick society,
being uncomfortable, beingdepressed, being afraid, being
anxious, being distracted, likeWelcome to humanity, is what
that is, you know. And if you'renot feeling those things, it's
because you're not telling yourtruth. And if you are feeling
those things, it's just part ofbeing human. Now, the truth is,

(13:32):
you can choose to continue tofeel those things, or you can
take on different practices, andthere are different practices
that can literally undo some ofthose intense default
experiences of feeling miserableand staying miserable. You don't
have to stay miserable. That'sthe exciting power to be at
being human. We're no longerwe're not a slave to the habits
that brought us to today, and wecan really step away from that

(13:56):
and in the world of exploringjoy or happiness, or say,
freedom or power oroptimization. At some level, if
you take on different ways oflooking at the same data, your
life changes drastically. Andthis is what I then became a
real, deep proponent of as apsychiatrist. But for many
years, I was doing somethingthat I wasn't aligned with,

(14:18):
which was actually diagnosingpeople and then medicating them.
You know, there was alreadysunken cost for me to be a
psychiatrist, and I had to kindof squeeze in my humanity around
the edges that wasunsatisfactory to me. And then
in the last decade or so, I'vedecided that I can no longer
align with being that kind ofperson. I just took people off

(14:38):
of medicine. In 2006 I took muchof my practice off of medicine,
and there was just these greatresults. You know, these people
got better, way better, reliablybetter, profoundly better, and
their diagnosis typically justand totally disappeared into
thin air. So when I learnedthat, the

Erin Brinker (14:54):
question that about that because, because
there are, and I would say thatmost of America. Erica is is
being over medicated. Right nowthey know the percentage of
people, especially young people,who are taking SSRIs and other
psychiatric medications is hasnever been as high as it is. Now
it's really off the charts. Butthere's a there's a difference
between kind of those, thedepression and anxiety, the

(15:17):
generalized depression andanxiety, and then people who
have really severe mentalillnesses, the bipolar this,
like the schizophrenia, the, youknow, borderline personality
disorder and other personalitydisorders. So can you kind of
differentiate those so thatpeople are clear about what
you're talking about?

Dr. Fred Moss (15:34):
Yeah, I'm not saying. I am not in agreement
exactly with what you just said.
And so once you declare yourselfas having one of those
conditions, and an authoritygives you the sort of a stamp
that there is your condition.
Now you then become that. Notonly you become that, but the
medicines that you take in, thetreatments that you actually
willing to have intervene createthat. In other words, if someone

(15:54):
was following an entirelyregimen of, you know, the 20
things that come with the mossmethod, like, you know, really,
watching what they eat, watchingwhat they drink, and watching
their meditation and theirgratitude, their nature, their
creativity, their spirituality,their service work, their
walking, you know, being withpets and sleep hygiene and

(16:14):
pampering themselves, all thosethings everyone can do. So I
don't really have it thatnecessarily, there's a natural
propensity to have bipolardisorder. In fact, Bipolar
disorder is created uponreceiving that diagnosis, and
once you receive that diagnosis,everything you thought about
bipolar disorder is then putinto your lap. In other words,
if you're living a very cleanlifestyle, if you're doing some

(16:36):
of the things that you know youcan do, it isn't the same, but
once you start taking themedicines, they are designed, in
fact, designed to induce orincrease or perpetuate, or, in
fact, cause the symptoms. Aremarketed to treat. And then it
really looks real, because, infact, the medicines have created
the chemical imbalance that youthought you had in the first

(16:58):
place.

Erin Brinker (16:59):
So are you saying that bipolar disorder and
borderline personality disorderand schizophrenia don't exist?

Dr. Fred Moss (17:06):
I'm saying they are simply conversations. And I
will say this, let me, let's putthis into perspective. Number
one, they're simplyconversations that are subject
to transformation. And whenschizophrenia was first
designed, it was less than one,less than point 1% of the
population. Bipolar disorder isa very odd disorder that talks
about having too many moods.
It's an effort to homogenizesociety rather than really get

(17:28):
that people are allowed to goexplore whatever their moods
are. And what's really veryclear here to me is that if you
have bipolar disorder in StLouis or in Sacramento, and you
take that to Reykjavik orJohannesburg or Auckland, you
might not have that disorderanymore. In the same clinicians
might review you and think thatyou're great, think that you're
gifted, think that you're ashaman, or they may think you

(17:48):
got something worse, justbecause one clinician thinks you
have bipolar disorder, anotherclinician thinks you don't have
a bipolar disorder, unlike likea broken arm, like if you have a
broken arm in Sacramento or StLouis, and you take that to
Reykjavik, you still have abroken arm. If you take it to
Singapore, you still have it'sactually a standard that holds
true in all cultures, and, youknow, by all reviews, by all

(18:11):
diagnosticians. So not true withpsychiatric conditions, very
culturally specific and verydiagnostician specific as well.
So one of the things thathappens frequently is that
someone with a psychiatricdisorder will come who thinks
they have a psychiatricdisorder, has been told and
agrees that they have apsychiatric disorder, will come
to my office. They have likeseven different diagnoses, or

(18:33):
like 11, and all that says to meis that they've gone to at least
11 different clinicians. That'sall it says it doesn't mean that
they have 11 differentdisorders. It means that they've
been them the whole time, andthey've been outside of the
bounds of what the diagnosticianis used to calling normal. But
let's make another thing clear,which is diagnosticians are not
incentivized to call you normal.

(18:55):
As a matter of fact, they can'tcall you normal. If they call
you normal, they will not getpaid, right? They need, they
need to give you a diagnosis ofabnormal, even if you're the
most normal thing that ever hasbeen walked the planet.

Erin Brinker (19:07):
But, but let me ask you this, and I hear what
you're saying. And certainly,there were studies where college
students went into mentalinstitutions and they were all
done, they were all fine beforethey went in, and they were all
diagnosed with things. And therewas a study that was run, and
I'm, I don't remember when thatwas, but I think it was, yeah,
in the 60s and so. But there arebehaviors that that so we'll use

(19:28):
by, we'll use bipolar disorder.
So the the like, reallyincreased spending, really
increased sexual promiscuity,really, and, you know, like the
manic behaviors. And we've seen,Kanye, Kanye West, for example,
when he, you know, he's clearlyin a manic episode, and you know
the kind of delusions and thingsthat happened to him, you know

(19:50):
that that, to me, is not on theis not on the scale of what I
would say normal. But I

Dr. Fred Moss (19:57):
understand. I understand. So there's ways to
tie. Toxify yourself, and youcan get that way. And if we were
to really look at Kanye West oranyone about what the practices
are that are leading to theseconditions, I propose that we
could get underneath this andsee that this is not a way of
being. This has to do with thecocaine that he snorts every
day. To do with the cocaine,with the Coca Cola he drinks too

(20:18):
much. It has to do with the factthat he, you know, drinks too
much coffee, or he eats too manyadderalls or whatever the hell
he does, but now we have achemical imbalance. It shows up
as if it's real. What I'm sayingis that at the heart of the
matter, we're all little kidsnot having a clue how to live,

(20:39):
and we're all doing our verybest all things considered,
considering all the toxins, andnot just internal toxins of what
we eat or what we take in ourmouth, but what we take in with
our eyes, what we take in withour ears. Do we spend time
actually being of service forservice sake? Do we spend time
looking at spirituality formystical sake, for a higher

(20:59):
power sake? Do we really sitstill, silent and and, you know,
contemplative in our meditativestate? Are we really putting
forth a gratitude practice? Dowe, in fact, watch what we eat
and what what we drink so thatwe're not eating toxins that
absolutely cause mental healthdiscomfort and this, you know,

(21:19):
derangement or imbalance. WhatI'm suggesting is at the heart
of the matter when and I havebeen with some of the most wild
people that the planet has tooffer, for sure, inside of the
jails, inside of prisons, insideof my travels, I've been
introduced to people thatotherwise would be considered
several, you know, severallayers outside of the norm,

(21:40):
which, by the way, has neverbeen defined either,

Erin Brinker (21:44):
which is also, that's a moving target. I do
know that.

Dr. Fred Moss (21:47):
So if the normal is not defined, how do we have
the audacity to describeabnormal?

Erin Brinker (21:54):
That's true.
That's true. So let's, let'stalk about, you know, the the
healing, the healer in that, inthat work that you're doing,
that it's that you know what youeat and how you live and the
habits that create kind ofoptimal health, and then mental
health. What does that looklike?

Dr. Fred Moss (22:12):
Yeah, so healing, the healer is just a function of
a lot of people who went into atrade, you know, went into a
trade like nursing school orsocial work, or maybe doctor or
psychologist, you know, theywent into something hoping to
get out on the other side andhave a new trade where they can
actually do that, which wouldtheir ideal was about what that
job entailed, only to find outthat the job isn't anything like

(22:35):
what they thought it was rightand they, you know, I have to
spend all their time doing paperpaperwork or or living within
the compliances, or, you know,busy working their schedules, or
billing for ucrs, or whateverthey're doing, like it's just
not what they thought it was.

Erin Brinker (22:52):
But Isn't life like that? I mean, all of us, we
get out of school and we thinkthe world is going to be some
way, and then reality hits us inthe face, and some people can
pick themselves up easily andsome people can't.

Dr. Fred Moss (23:03):
I don't know that life is guaranteed to be that
way, but it is the way that it'sset up inside of the way that
the trade and the education areformulated. So you are, in fact,
spat out with a differentposition than what you thought
you were going in to obtain.
That's very, very common. Butwhat happens then? And it sounds
like it happened to you, and itsounds, you know, it certainly
has happened to me, is that westop in our tracks at some

(23:25):
point, like, No, I can'tcontinue to do this. I need to
do that which I came here to be,right? And then we step into
being healed ourselves andfinding our own unique track,
whether it be our bus ride toBerkeley or whatever we have to
do, we find our own unique trackto being aligned with ourselves,
to forgetting that it's mucheasier to be aligned with

(23:46):
ourself, to be resonating andharmonic with our own core
intentions, than it is to besomebody else pretending to be
somebody else in order toprotect that person From all the
you know, shame and blame anddisregard then might happen if
we say the wrong thing to thewrong people.

Erin Brinker (24:06):
So being aligned with ourself is not meaning
putting ourselves above allpeople at all time. It just
means that we're walkingauthentically with who with the
gifts that we were given

Dr. Fred Moss (24:17):
exactly, exactly.
We don't have to look outwardfor that stuff. By the way, it's
been there the whole time, itwill be there the whole time,
and we've just muddied it upwith all these different ways of
learning how to be somebody elsein order to, so called, protect
ourselves. And you know, one canmake a case that we learned that
in first grade when we were toldto sit down, be quiet, and do
what I said, rather thanactually explore what's
interesting to us. So yeah,being aligned with ourselves,

(24:39):
and moving this stuff out of theway that's in the way to that's
presently in the way to findyourself or be with yourself, is
a real, serious challenge of ourlife. And we have a methodology
inside of the moss method andinside of Welcome to humanity,
to help people actually getaligned with their self again,
so that when they're resonatingwith another human. Men. It's
actually them resonating ratherthan the person that they

(25:02):
pretended to be. You know, HenryDavid Thoreau said it this time.
We'll quote him where he says,the massive men go through life
and quiet desperation and thengo to their graves with their
songs still in them. And that'sbecause we're all pretending to
be somebody else instead ofourselves thinking that it's
protective. Now I see that to beone of the most tragic aspects

(25:22):
of all of humanity. Imaginegoing through life and having
nobody ever actually get to knowyou. Like, what a bummer. Yeah,
what a terrible bummer. Andthat's what we're all headed to
if we don't take if the defaultis to go that direction, you
have to, like, step up andactually make a commitment to
find your true self, you know,and that's what's really

(25:43):
important.

Erin Brinker (25:45):
So that would necessitate for everyone to just
be dissociative, going throughtheir entire lives one more
time. Please. You would in orderfor you to live your life as
someone else or doing thingsthat you are supposed to be
doing, it requires that youdissociate with who you are from
who you are.

Dr. Fred Moss (26:02):
And that does that. You've just done a great
job at completely debunking thewhole diagnosis of dissociative
disorder. Exactly. Every one ofus is doing it anyways.

Erin Brinker (26:11):
100% interesting, exactly. So, so Okay, let's,
let's say I'm a patient. I've,I've just been fired from my job
will say I'm an accountant andI'm getting a divorce. I'm 35
years old, I've got two kids,and I'm an absolute wreck. How
would you start with me?

Dr. Fred Moss (26:30):
There's nothing wrong with you that we'd start
with that that's reallyimportant. There's nothing wrong
with you and your life iscompletely miserable, let's face
it, but there's nothing wrongwith you inherently. So having
this equation that got createdin 1987 with Prozac was that if
there was something that washighly miserable or intolerable
or untenable, you know, if therewas something going on in your

(26:52):
life that was causing massivepain, that meant there was
something wrong with you, perse. So the first place we get
is, I can get this. I can bewith you. I can resonate with
you. I can listen to you. I cancare for you. I can be a human
with you. And when we really getthat, there's a sense that, you
know, all of a sudden, I'm notalone. All these things that are

(27:13):
happening. I lost my job, I gotmy two kids. I'm having a
divorce, you know, I got moneyproblems, I've got health
problems. My mom is yelling atme all those things that happen,
we can get that I am a mess, butwe can also get that that's an
internal experience of emotions.
And in fact, how you feelinternally doesn't have to
dictate how you behave yourself.

(27:33):
Ooh. How do you separate that?
How you separate that is withmeditation and gratitude. We
start getting that I am not myexperiences, I am not my
feelings, I am not my thoughts,I am not my circumstances. There
is a person here who'sexperiencing life as it is and
then judging and assessingwhether it's good or bad, and
then collapsing ourselves ontothose experiences. But what
meditation has to offer, whatGratitude has to offer, really

(27:55):
what spirituality and much ofthe list on the moth method has
to offer is being able toseparate this core self from the
experiences you're havinginternally or externally. It
sounds kind of odd for peoplethat don't don't have experience
with it. It's like trying toexplain swimming to somebody
who's never been in a poolyou're not going to really be
able to do that, or trying toexplain what a mango tastes like

(28:16):
to somebody who's never had one,right? That's you're not going
to be able to do as well, so,but what really does happen
inside of this remarkable ageold, you know, time tested,
effective means of managing lifeis inside meditation. You really
do get access to this person, tothe center, to this core that is
experiencing those things, butdoesn't have to become those

(28:40):
things.

Erin Brinker (28:43):
It reminds me of Aristotle's question, does a
fish know that it's wet 100% andbecause if you, if you are, if
you are living the way thatyou've always lived, and
miserable throughout the wholething, but you're living the way
that you always live, it hasn'toccurred to you that there might
be another way,

Dr. Fred Moss (28:59):
exactly, exactly, and there really might be
another way, and that's what thepractices are really aimed at,
is opening the doors to thepossibility of other ways,
exactly.

Erin Brinker (29:08):
So, when did you start really seeing this,
bringing this kind of worktogether with your patients?
Because I, you know, you get outof medical school, medical
school, you have you've said,fixed costs. Are you, you know,
sunk cost? You have to, youknow, pay your student loans,
etc, etc. And at what point didyou say, Yeah, I'm not in this
anymore. I'm I'm done with thestatus quo. This is not working.

Dr. Fred Moss (29:33):
I think most of my med school colleagues, and
certainly my residentialcolleagues, the ones that we
had, 12 of us at the Universityof Cincinnati, would already say
that it was, well, started backthen. So I was already calling,
you know, calling out the wholetheories and the idea I was

(29:54):
doing that back it's just anextension of little Freddy at
three years old. It's not anextension of post doctor. So at
post, all that really happenedis I got twisted and contorted
during medical school, so thatby the time I came out, I was
now asked to be a oak soimportant doctor with a white
coat, and all those things thatI have to do to take care of
inpatients and outpatients andinsurance forms, and, you know,

(30:17):
residential patients andorphanage patients and nursing
home patient, that all of thosethings sort of asked me to do
something that was misalignedwith who I really was, and I
found a way to get that done,but around the side, like I had
said earlier, squeaking aroundthe edges where there was this
character that was like, Look,this is bullshit. Like,

(30:37):
seriously, like, this is both,like, the center chord of what
we're being taught isn't real,and there is something way more
powerful and way more realthat's in the world of human
connection and interaction thatactually works to cure and to
heal, rather than to contain orslow down deterioration, which
is all the mental healthindustry really contain, really
describes itself as under noconditions is the mental health

(30:59):
industry described that it'sgoing to cure your mental
illness. No, once you havewhatever they say you had that
you will now agree you have. Youactually have a propensity
towards that in their worldanyways. To have it recurve, to
have it happen again, to have itbe part of you. I am like once I
have an episode where I've beendeclared manic or declared, you

(31:21):
know, depressed or narcissist orwhatever it is that I've been
given, there's a sense that,okay, I guess I'm stuck with
this the rest of my life. Youjust don't have that with other
fields. And so what's reallyhere is the possibility of
getting that there is analternative way to look at the
same data and allow yourself toheal from the conditions that

(31:43):
you otherwise thought wereprobably permanent, because
that's what the industry toldyou. Wow.

Erin Brinker (31:50):
Okay, so I'm processing this. And one of the
things you know, looking at thedata now and the explosion in
these diagnoses, the world thatwe live in has changed
dramatically. People no longerhave faith communities. Families
are scattered all over thecountry. The people are
connecting via a device thatthey're staring at all day long.

(32:12):
And so there's this artificialconnection. And so the in that
environment, you know, I thinkthat we're reaching a crisis
level. What are you seeing?

Dr. Fred Moss (32:22):
Yeah, of course, we're reaching a crisis level,
but we're not because there'ssomething wrong with us. Well,
lean back on Krishnamurthyagain. You know, we're being
asked to live a life that'soutside the bounds of of
healthiness, and we're beingasked to do things that humans,
up until this point, have neverbeen asked to do. So of course,
it leads to confusion, it leadsto chaos, it leads to disarray,

(32:43):
it leads to depression, leads tofear, leads to anxiety, leads to
distractibility, leads toaimlessness, leads to
hopelessness, leads to funnythoughts, all those things
happen. It's okay. There'snothing wrong with us. So once
we start getting that there'snothing wrong with us, we're
walking through this temporaryexperience on the earth
together, and we get to see thatthe what really does cure is

(33:04):
finding someone who gets you isactually getting another person
inside of that experience isjust a, you know, an epiphany.
It's just an explosion of healththat takes place at that moment.
I've worked in some of themaximum security prisons and in
California, you know, PelicanBay and Folsom and Salinas and,

(33:26):
you know, these are supposed tobe like some of the sickest
people in the world orsomething, yeah, but not, not
the inmates, everyone else,maybe, but not the inmates. And
the inmates are so, so healthybecause they actually have
nothing to lose. It's veryinteresting. It's not across the
board, by the way. Of course,there are people there who you
know aren't I wouldn't wantliving next door to me, but that

(33:49):
doesn't make you know they'reall just trying to express
themselves in whatever way theycan, given all the limitations
and the gifts that they have,

Erin Brinker (33:56):
but they, many of them, have, I mean, made
objectively harmful and evildecisions, murder, rape, armed
robbery, you know, kidnapping,you know the things that would
land you in a in a maximumsecurity prison. I mean, yeah, I
mean, maybe they're just, theymake really bad choices and they
need to be locked up. Or there'ssome, maybe they're broken.

(34:17):
Maybe it's from trauma. I don'tknow.

Dr. Fred Moss (34:19):
I don't know either, and I think you have to
be very careful before yougeneralize what you know. Not
you. I'm not. There's not adirection to you. We have to be
very careful before wegeneralize what we think is
going on in the prisons withthose people who, so called,
made those decisions. And onceyou start looking at the core of
those decisions, normally, youcan actually follow the thinking
all the way through to whateveract led them to, you know, be,

(34:40):
be to get their offense. You canfollow through their thinking of
how they got to whatever theygot to on the day that they
finally did that, which we nowcall to be a, you know, a
counterproductive act that ledthem to life in prison, like
murder or rape. Yeah, murder orrape. Indeed, you can start
listening to what. If you canopen yourself up and listen to

(35:02):
them for the human that theyare, you can get whatever they
thought was going on at the timeand see how at least their mind
worked, even if you don't agree,or if at some certain point you
would have done somethingdifferent, what you can really
get is it's just another humanhere. It's literally just
another human here who made somedecisions that landed them

(35:23):
behind bars. By the way, I'm noteven sure that they're more
behind bars than we are, butthat's a whole different
question as well.

Erin Brinker (35:30):
Interesting. So what? Okay, so that's that that
is a new way of thinking, andit's but it's begging a lot of
questions about what you do witha population that is that
maladaptive to society,

Dr. Fred Moss (35:45):
they're not well, you like I said, once you meet
them, you start realizing thatthey're just humans, and they're
the most non pretentious humansI've ever met. And inside of
that process, there's an eye toeye that can happen that is so
extraordinary. There's such aconnection waiting to happen.
Most people don't give thosepeople the time of day because
they're either afraid of them orthey have whatever preconceived
thoughts they have. But in asociety where people are

(36:07):
struggling, the best move, whatI've ever found ever for anyone,
and I don't know that I can everbe altered from this, if I could
learn a better move, I would doit is to actually understand
somebody, listen to somebody, bewith somebody, and get somebody
as best as you can, and, youknow, stay right in there while
they're sharing their truth withyou, whether or not you agree,

(36:27):
or they're or they're, you know,completely diametrically opposed
in all of their decisions,doesn't stop the possibility of
listening to them like they'rehuman. What that's fair, because
they are human. They are human.
And once that happens, that youcan do that you can see a
explosion of healing takingplace in some situations that
happens instantaneously andspontaneously upon them, getting

(36:49):
that you get them. It's anexplosion. I've never seen
healing take place anything likethat with any of the tools or
any of the modalities associatedwith conventional or any
unconventional mental healthtreatment.

Erin Brinker (37:07):
So what role does trauma play in all of that?
Because we're, you know, lots ofpeople grow up, whether they've
been to war or they grew up inan abusive family or whatever,
violent neighborhood. What roledoes trauma play?

Dr. Fred Moss (37:19):
Trauma is an experience that we, really,
pretty much all of us, have. Youknow, you know you don't have to
be in a street where there'sdrive bys to call it trauma.
Whatever you have is that youras greatest trauma is a big
trauma for you. So almosteveryone, if not everyone, has
had their form of trauma, andtrauma happens. And then what we
have is a tendency, a defaulttendency to relive that trauma,

(37:40):
default tendency to think thatit's still happening as false, a
false tendency to try to resolveit in our thoughts and our
feelings in a default way ofbeing. But one can be taught to
just dismantle themselves, todisconnect themselves from that
sense that it's still going on.
And you can use several of themodalities and gifts and tools
that I said earlier with themoss method, and there are

(38:02):
others as well, to at leastdisconnect, if not loosen the
jar, some significantly, so thatthe trauma is no longer being
experienced as ongoing orrecurrent, because it isn't
ongoing and it isn't recurrent,and then the possibility even
becomes that you can transferthat to being of service for
others who have experiencedsimilar trauma. And there's a

(38:23):
tremendous amount of healingthat takes place like that. So
inside of healing to healer, forinstance, there's this whole
idea that when one can resonatewith an experience because
you've had a similar one foryourself, then you become
available to others who arehaving that similar experience
in such a way that, yes, indeed,they feel connected, they feel
understood, they feel resonatedwith, and healing can take place

(38:43):
for them before it gets out ofhand. So trauma is a big deal.
But trauma isn't what causes thedamage. Trauma is something that
happens and then how we enter,how we interface with that, how
we react, or even, should I say,respond to that is a little bit
up to us. So we have severaldifferent opportunities, and if

(39:05):
we don't do anything, more thanlikely, and especially with
these medications, whichactually freeze the trauma in
place. So once you start takingmedicines for the trauma you
had, you can be sure that you'llhave that trauma on an ongoing
basis, because that's reallywhat the medicine are designed
to do is to stop the evolutionaway from experiencing the
trauma.

Erin Brinker (39:25):
Well, you know, addiction works like that. So if
you that, you essentially freezeyour development at whatever,
whenever it was that thataddiction started, and so that
alcoholics then are trying toavoid, or addicts are trying to
avoid dealing with with badfeelings. Well, those feelings
well, those feelings are alwaysthere, and they're going to be
sitting there cooking untilyou're clean and work through

(39:45):
them the hard way.

Dr. Fred Moss (39:46):
And there's some notion that those pills and
those substances are differentthan psychiatric medicines, and
they're not. So the truth is,this is another form of
dependency, as all psychiatricmedicines are. And in fact,
these. Medicines are very welldesigned, even though they're
given a prescription, and a bigold, you know, well trained,
well educated physician wrote alittle note and said that you

(40:08):
can take it. That doesn't meanthat these medicines are doing
you any good. Now, before we gomuch further, I do want to say
this disclaimer. I thought aboutit earlier, and I waited a
little longer than I normallydo, and that is, there's a group
of people listening to thisinterview right now who are
pretty sure that they have beenproperly diagnosed. They love
their therapist, they love theirintervention, they love their
therapeutic you know, they lovetheir treatment plan, and maybe

(40:31):
even they love their medicine,and they wouldn't trade it for
the world. And what I want tosay to them is, please keep
doing exactly what you're doingwith all due respect, and I mean
that in all serious goodness.
Because if you've reached thatplace in any area of life where
you wouldn't want to trade whatyou have with anything else in
the world, this is the best it'sgoing to get. And you're pretty
sure about that, and you don'twant to even consider
alternatives, then you need tobottle that, because that is a

(40:53):
very rare occurrence. And ifthat's happening in your life
with respect to your mentalhealth, then good for you.
Please keep doing exactly whatyou're doing. Okay, no kidding,
this conversation isn't evenreally for you. This
conversation is for the hundredsof millions of people,
literally, who are pretty surethey've been misdiagnosed,
underdiagnosed, overdiagnosed,mistreated, undertreated,

(41:14):
overtreated, mismedicated, undermedicated, over medicated. These
are those people who really knowin their heart of hearts that
they're not getting the best outof life anymore, and that it has
something to do with how theynow perceive themselves, or the
things that they're taking in,or the treatments that they're
involved in that aren'toptimizing their life. And
what's very possible is tooptimize your life, no matter
what has happened up until now.

Erin Brinker (41:38):
So let's talk about loneliness, because you
talked about community playingsuch an important role in living
an optimized life. You knowwhen, specifically, as it
pertains to mental health, thenumber of lonely people,
especially seniors, is off thecharts at the moment, and so, so
what does loneliness do? And youknow, how do you create

(41:59):
community when you don't evenknow where to start?

Dr. Fred Moss (42:02):
Well, there is a big difference between being
alone and being lonely, numberone and but I hear what you're
saying exactly, and I don't wantto diffuse it with that truth,
but that is an important truth.
Being alone and being lonely aretwo different things. Lonely.
Being lonely is the processingof the area being alone. So once
one alone, one can say, I'malone and I wish I wasn't alone.
So I'm not aligned with the waythings are going right here. And

(42:23):
that level of of of, you know,of space between how things are
going and how you wish they weregoing creates this non this
experience of loneliness. Soloneliness is a very painful
experience, and in fact, ifyou're not interacting with
someone, well, you're missingthe number one cure available to
humans, and that's in the worldof human connection. So if, in

(42:45):
fact, you're connecting with noone, you are starving yourself
at the number one cure, thenumber one healing resource, the
number one medication known toall of humanity over all of
time, and that is being withanother human. When we really
get that, that's really whatwe're all after, then that
possibility exists that even ifyou're lonely, there are things

(43:07):
you can do to alleviate thatloneliness. Number one, a you
could become okay with beingalone. That's a little bit of a
hard process, but could betheoretically gained. You know,
you could, again, you do a lotof bunch of meditation, a bunch
of gratitude, a bunch ofspiritual of spirituality, a
bunch of, I guess, service workrequires somebody else, but, you
know, do some creativity, dosome pampering. You can get

(43:29):
yourself so that you're actuallyokay with the process of being
alone. That's one way. It's notnecessarily the recommended way.
It's a little bit difficult todo all of that alone. So the
other way to do that is youreally can reach out. You really
can call your child, you reallycan talk to your friend, you
really can go to the library,you really can take a walk in
the park. You really can dothose things and then reach out

(43:52):
to other people. When you dothat, it's amazing that you
know, once you've gone a littlebit of time without being with
someone, and you decide to havethe courage, because it does
take courage. You're afraid ofbeing rejected. It takes courage
to go out there and say hello tosomebody, or go, you know, just
make yourself known and meetsomebody or or to call a friend
or call a family member for fearthat you're going to be a

(44:13):
burden, or, you know, you'reBrinker, you're like a Debbie
Downer to their life instead ofall that you can actually reach
out and alleviate yourloneliness by one simple way,
which is, go call somebody. Gobe with somebody. Go walk with
somebody. Like that's the way tothat is the cure for loneliness,
after all,

Erin Brinker (44:32):
right. And, and I have to say that there, there
are so many seniors, especiallywho they've retired from their
jobs. Maybe their kids are notin, not in the same community,
or they're just busy and theyhave all of this capacity to
still impact the world aroundthem. They're not sure what to
do. And my answer is alwayswhatever, whatever your passion
is, puppies and kittens orveterans or, you know, low

(44:56):
income kids, go find a nonprofitto volunteer at, because you
you. Can still make an impactand still have a connection and
give you purpose. And when youthink that you don't have one,
because you're no longer working

Dr. Fred Moss (45:08):
right, it's just a thought process. This idea
that I don't have a purpose isreally just a thought process,
and we all can fall into that. Iknow, frankly, even though I may
sound like I know some stuff,there are several times in a day
where I get to, what's theeffing point I get to that? You
know, I get to it. I do. Andwhere I are, no one gets me. Or

(45:29):
why do I got to be so different,or all those things, you know,
right? That is very muchinherent inside of the human
condition. So when we get tothose spaces, we don't have to
go volunteer at a nursing homeor a soup kitchen. It's not the
only way to do service. Helpinganybody do anything is service.
And, you know, we don't have tobe a candy striper in order to
do service. We can do stuff thatis very small and it that might

(45:53):
be even, you know, helping theneighbor bring groceries into
their house or something, or,you know, raking the leaves or
take, you know, asking someoneto go for a walk with you, or
any of those things. You know,that's that it. There are
multiple ways, especially in ourpresent way. And you said
something about staring at thescreen, after all, me and you

(46:13):
are having a very robustconversation at this very
moment, and neither of us areeven seeing each other. No,
we're not. And that's reallyinteresting, you know that. But
to say this is like adisconnected conversation would
be completely unfair andcompletely inaccurate. Indeed,
what's really here isconnection, even available using
this virtual process.

Erin Brinker (46:33):
So let's talk a little bit about gratitude and
the power of gratitude totransform where you are in life.

Dr. Fred Moss (46:42):
So in the list of the moss method, number one
thing is gratitude. So grad it'sit does it. The moss method has
20 things in the list, and thenumber one thing is gratitude,
not because it's the mostimportant, but it's because it's
the first thing you can do inthe morning before you even get
up out of bed. So I know for me,and I did it today, and I do it
every single day. I wake up andI'm a little bit
discombobulated, somehowdisorganized or disoriented. I'm

(47:04):
like, what, what? What's what?
And what are we? What are we up?
You know, what are we doingtoday? What's i? What? Who like?
Who's like? Is that my wife, youknow, like, those kind of
things, you know. And I have alittle bit of that. And before
too long, within a few secondsbefore I climb out of bed, I put
my hand on my heart, or bothhands on my heart, and I come up
with 10 things that I'm gratefulfor. Now I have done this enough

(47:26):
times in a row that it takes meless than 10 seconds to come up
with 10 things. And by the way,the first thing I come up with
is my wife, because, after all,if I'm going to say it out loud
and wake her up, she should knowthat she's number one on my
list. And then number two, threeand four are my cats, desposito
Winston and Valentino all thetime. Now sometimes I just call
my cats and that's then becomesnumber two. So now I'm left with

(47:48):
the burden of coming up witheight more things, rather than
six more things. If I actuallysplit my cats out as being two,
three and four, plus, I have tochoose which cat I want to make
two. It's all pretty

Erin Brinker (47:56):
complicated. And they understand you. I have four
cats. I They understand you. Ohyeah, they

Dr. Fred Moss (48:01):
know what I'm up to for sure, Valentino.
Valentino is very aware that I'msuper grateful for him, and so
is despot Winston. Now, when westart looking at that, we start
realizing that in thatgratitude, all I've done is
reset my point of view. I'vereset the filter, I've reset how
I'm looking at the world,because the world can be a hell
hole. It's not very hard tocreate 100 reasons why you think

(48:23):
the world is a hell hole, right?
It's really easy to get 100reasons why we should be
depressed, or 100 reasons why weshould be afraid, 100 reasons
why we should be like anxious,like there's 100 reasons that we
would take us four seconds, fourminutes, I'm sorry, to come up
with 100 reasons for any ofthose things if we work
together, and in fact, some ofthose things, we could probably
take a break and do it in fourminutes. But when we really

(48:45):
start looking at, you know, thepower of gratitude, what it
really does is it a lot like it.
When I pick Alexandra and thenpick Winston, desposito and
Valentino, there is somethinglike a charge of, okay, at least
it's worthwhile for these four,right? But then I go to the sun

(49:05):
and go to the moon, or I go to,you know, the sun and the moon
or the stars or my porch or mymentors or my teachers or my
leaders or my work or my friendor my patient or my sister or my
brothers or my mom or my dad,you know, not that's, I don't
know how many I just named, butsomewhere near 20, because it's
not very hard. Once you getgoing, people are like, What if

(49:26):
I can't come up with 10? Well,if you can't come up with 10,
lower the bar and then come upwith 10, you know it's there's
10. It's not. You don't have toworry about that. And that's
true wherever you're living,wherever, if you're on the
streets, if you're homelessentirely, there's still
absolutely 10 things in theworld that you can be very happy
about. It rewires

Erin Brinker (49:46):
your brain too. I mean, there are neuroscience to
back up how thinking aboutgratitude and intentionally
thinking about gratitude canchange how everything is wired
in your brain, not everything,but at least your because i know
that i. I'm a ruminator. Ifsomething goes sideways, I
ruminate, I think about it, andI have to intentionally change
my thinking, create new neuralpathways, so to speak.

Dr. Fred Moss (50:09):
Yeah, yeah.
There's no doubt about it,whether it's, you know, whether
it's proven by studies or not,isn't really so important. It's
the experiential. Theexperiential aspect of is very
real. And on on days where I'mslow to do gratitude, or I get
up out of bed without it, Inotice it like, within minutes,

(50:29):
I'm like, Oh, wait, here's 10things. You know, I put my even
if I haven't got to the showeryet, my hands on my heart, I'm
saying those 10 things. And thepower of it is, is
extraordinary, you know,enormous.

Erin Brinker (50:44):
So what are some of the other habits that people
can do every day?

Dr. Fred Moss (50:50):
So meditation is a great habit, you know, sitting
still and silent, and thenhaving some sort of mantric
center where you can get likewhat you had asked earlier,
where you can get I'm not myexperiences. You know, you know,
you let your thoughts go andyou're like you notice yourself
off track, and you bringyourself back to center with
their touch points, or with yourmantra or or with a visual or a

(51:13):
listening. There's multiple waysto do meditation, but all of
them have that certain one thingthat come back to the center
from wherever your thoughts tookyou and be calm, compassionate,
accepting and forgiving ofyourself for having your
thoughts go offline because youstart realizing, well, I'm not
those thoughts. How could I bethose thoughts if I'm actually
describing them? I'm not theirthoughts, I'm not the feelings,

(51:35):
I'm not the emotions, I'm notthe sensations, I'm not the
circumstances. And meditation isextremely effective. You know,
time tested and proven. Asmentioned, this is something
that's been going on since thebeginning of time. You can make
a case for even biblicalcharacters, or whoever you think
are the first characters on onthe planet. All of them, you
know, found access and foundsuccess inside of doing

(51:57):
meditation over the years,because it really works. Now.
That's the same thing, as wesaid earlier. They can't really
explain how meditation works inthe same way that you can't
really explain how what swimmingis, if you've never been in a
pool. But meditation is one ofthose things that I think is
really high powered, and thenanother one is getting out in
nature. So getting out innature, you don't have to study
when you're out in nature. Youdon't have to actually learn

(52:19):
what that squirrel is doing. Youdon't have to actually see a
deer. You don't have to actuallysee a roses or a creek or an
ocean, but all those things canbe very helpful. And you really
just see that this is how naturegoes this. And we are part of
nature. In fact, we are nature.
And you could start seeing thatthere's a perfection in the flow
of nature, even if it's justaround the block, by the way,
and you once you startincorporating that, this can

(52:41):
also recenter us, and, you know,put us back in touch with our
core just by being out in natureand being out in the sun each
and every day. We were intendedto do that when we were when we
were brought to this earth. Andnow we spend so much time
staring at these screens andsitting on our cubicles and
thinking that life takes placein front of us on those screens
or in between our two ears,when, in fact, there's a whole

(53:04):
world going on out there thatcan be remarkably revitalizing.
Another one is spirituality. Soinside of the world of
spirituality, you know you havewhatever you believe is a higher
power. And if you believenothing's higher power, then
have that nothing be your higherpower, whatever you like. And
once you start taking place thatyou know you're a small cog and
a small cog in a huge wheel, andthere's a real opportunity to

(53:27):
get in touch with what yourtemporary purpose is on this
earth. And if you believe thatthere's before and after lives,
what that all is entailed, youcan follow that through
spirituality and get again, atremendous amount of re
optimization and revitalizationand renewal. Another one is in
this world of service. We talkedabout that briefly. Whenever we

(53:49):
are helping another person, itseems that all of our negative
experiences goes away instantly,at least diminishes
significantly whenever we'rehelping someone, even if it's
just sharpening their pencil, weget an opportunity to explore
what it really means to be ofassistance to others. There are
several different organizations,rehab organizations, including
at the very bottom of that list,all the 12 step programs that

(54:12):
recognize that service is at theheart of all you know, of all
humanity and we really are herefor others, even more so than
for ourselves. So when we findourselves drowning in our own
self pity and our own selfworries, one of the things
that's really an easy way to gois start, you know, it's go,
help somebody else. And sothat's another one. And then

(54:32):
creativity is probably the fifthone that comes to mind, although
there are many others, nutritionand hydration and movement and,
you know, sleep hygiene and petsand things like that. But
creativity is another one,because this is just another
form of communication with eachother, with all of humanity,
through art and music anddancing and singing and drama,

(54:54):
cooking and writing andgardening, all those things. Are
creative in their own right.
Cause also a diminishment in oursense of self loathing and our
sense of, you know, fear andanxiety, and in its expression,
create another opportunity toexpress ourselves, which, of
course, you've heard me say,being self expressed and then

(55:16):
radically listening is the ultraform of connecting with another
person, and that's becomesavailable inside of the
creativity and

Erin Brinker (55:23):
radically listening, and we only have
about 30 seconds left. Radicallylistening is making me like
intentionally listen to what isspoken and unspoken in your
communications with someone,right?

Dr. Fred Moss (55:36):
Yeah, for sure, we're radical listening is goes
far beyond just simply. Look, ifyou're going to count on what
everybody says to be exactlywhat they mean, you're not
giving them very much credit.
You say a lot of things that youdidn't actually mean. Plus,
we're saying it on the flywithout any kind of rehearsal,
and we're putting together ourwords and then our sentences and
then our thoughts and then ourfeelings and throwing it across

(55:58):
the ether to the other personand hoping that they that they
receive it in something similarto how we meant it. There are so
many moving pieces inside of theverbal communication realm that
it's a good idea to see what'selse is going on besides simply
vocal interaction.

Erin Brinker (56:14):
Well. Dr Fred Moss, this has been a lively and
enlightening conversation. Howdo people find and follow you on
social media and find you on theweb.

Dr. Fred Moss (56:22):
So the UN Doctor reset is the thing I'm working
on the most. And you can findthat as UN Doctor reset com, and
I invite people to come overthere and take a look, and you
get access to me there with awith a discovery call by doing
that, and it is what it is. Youknow, I'm helping people learn
how to come off medicine, comeoff their diagnosis, and get
their life back. And I'm helpingpeople learn how to become an un
doctor. So other people in theirworld could do that, because you

(56:44):
don't need a license oreducation to become an un
doctor. So the UN doctor is alot of fun, and that's that's my
central focus these days. Butanother place to find me would
be at Dr Fred 360 com. That's DrFred 360 com, and everything I
do, and including a bunch offreebies and my books and all my
podcasts. You know, 500 or sopodcasts are loaded on there, so

(57:06):
that's a cool place to do it.
And on social media, you canfind me at Dr Fred moss in
multiple different places. Youknow, I like LinkedIn more than
any but I unfortunatelysometimes hang out in meta on
both of the meta places and andthen do a little little bit of x
as well. But social media is aplace to learn. You know,

(57:26):
YouTube is I'm growing myYouTube channel quite a bit.
It's a great place for me, andthat Welcome to humanity sits on
YouTube and but in reality, ifyou just want to get a hold of
me instead of over riding you.
Dr, Fred, 360 calm is what I'mabout and on Doctor reset, comm
is what I'm up to.

Erin Brinker (57:45):
Well, Dr Fred Moss, thank you so much for
joining me today and for yourinteresting and enlightening
life's work and conversation. Sothank you so much.

Dr. Fred Moss (57:55):
You're welcome.
Thanks for having me on. It wasa great conversation.

Erin Brinker (58:00):
Well done. Well, that is all we have time for
today. Thank you so much forspending this time with me. I
always appreciate you, know,spending some time with you. I'm
Erin Brinker, you've beenlistening to the making hope
happen radio show. For moreinformation about the making
hope happen Foundation, go towww, dot making hope.org. That's
www, dot Making Hope. Dot O, R,G, have a great one, everyone.

(58:23):
I'll see you next week.

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