December 10, 2024 • 61 mins
World-renowned performance coach and best-selling author Chris Janssen joins us to uncover the often hidden struggles of high-achievers and perfectionists. Sharing her journey of sobriety during the challenging holiday season, Chris opens up about the themes of shame, grace, and rewriting personal narratives. Our conversation offers tools and strategies for managing performance pressure and avoiding self-sabotage, drawing from Chris’s wealth of experience training with Tony Robbins and working with athletes and entrepreneurs.
Mentorship takes center stage as we explore the dual role of being both a mentor and a mentee. We discuss the value of shared experiences and community support, especially in contexts like motherhood and sobriety. Challenging popular misconceptions about addiction, we highlight how it can affect anyone, shedding light on the deeper struggles that alcohol use can mask. Through our personal stories, you’ll find inspiration and guidance on navigating these complex issues, reinforcing the importance of community in recovery and personal growth.
Finally, we dive into the transformative power of grace and self-worth. By addressing the pervasive issue of shame, we reveal practical methods for reframing negative narratives and fostering a healthier self-image. Chris and I share insights from our personal journeys and professional experiences, encouraging listeners to engage in the necessary heart work for richer, more meaningful connections and relationships. Whether you're seeking sobriety or personal growth, this episode offers a beacon of hope and a roadmap to a more joyful life.
Buy your copy of Grace Yourself HERE before February 17
and HERE after February 1
Follow Chris on her website and instagram @Chris3Janssen
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
Hey guys, welcome back to Making Room.
I'm so glad you're here.
You will see me sipping on myChristmas mug and cozying up
with my blanket because I'vedecided I'm fully embracing the
season.
It is a little bit chilly herein Connecticut and you guys know
I fought hard.
I fought the change of weatherhard, but I'm excited.
Little Wesley is 15 months thismonth.
(00:21):
He's at a really fun phasephase pulling all the ornaments
off the tree already.
But something about this yearjust seems sweeter.
Well, a few weeks ago we wereintroduced to a new friend.
Her name is chris and there isso much about her background and
her new book that wasinteresting to me and I know
will be interesting to you guysas well, and we're going to be
(00:41):
talking about her sobrietyjourney which especially,
especially this time of year mygoodness, the holidays, starting
a new year is so relevant,whether it's personal to you or
maybe someone in your life.
But as I was reading her bio,there were other kind of key
words that have been a huge partof my own life and my own
journey that I want to dive intoas well.
Words like high-achieving,perfectionist or perfectionism
(01:05):
we're going to dive into that.
Words like shame and somethingI love about the word shame you
guys will know what I mean notlove about it, but can
appreciate about it is so manyof us don't even realize that
it's something that we'redealing with or that we're
carrying or that we're livingunder.
And I had a mentor when wefirst moved to Thailand.
I was mid-20s and she said heyKatie, I think you're living
(01:28):
under shame, I think you'rewrestling with shame, and that
was the first time that had everbeen said to me.
That's the first time my eyeswere ever opened to it and it
started this whole journey forme that a lot of us, I don't
think, have worked through yet,and so I'm excited to bring that
conversation to you as well.
Well, chris, if I don't sayyour last name right, I want you
(01:50):
to correct me when we hoponline together.
But Chris Jansen yes,performance and mindset I love
that niche.
And a best-selling,award-winning author.
She has worked with hundreds ofsought-after athletes,
creatives, soldiers,entrepreneurs and small
(02:12):
businesses internationally,helping them to close the gap
between where they are and wherethey want to be.
I feel like all of our handsjust shot up and they're like
add me to your list.
In addition to her academicachievements.
Chris trained with and workedwith Tony Robbins which, as an
entrepreneur, I'm kind of likefangirling over a little bit and
(02:36):
his team of results coaches atthe number one personal
development and peak performingstrategy company in the world.
As a board-certified coach witha Master's in Counseling
Psychology and over 25 years ofexperience, chris excels in
helping high-achievingperfectionists navigate
performance pressure, overcomeself-sabotage and rewrite
(02:56):
narratives.
Through her successful andsustainable living, all-in
methodsients learn to attachmeaning to life events and
circumstances beyond theircontrol.
A California narrative.
Chris and her husband, scott,have been married for nearly 30
years.
Together they raised 3 children, now thriving young adults.
Chris and Scott split theirtime between Los Angeles and
(03:19):
Colorado.
They love to ski golf, be withtheir horses and adventure
outside.
I am excited to dive in, butbefore we do, guys, this time of
year is so full, it is so busy.
No matter how much you try tocreate some kind of routine and
rhythm and slow down, it usuallydoes.
(03:41):
Christmas seems like it'scoming faster.
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(04:35):
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Hi, I'm Katie, a hospitalityeducator and the host of Making
Room by Gather podcast.
I am set to see our communitiesget back to the table through
hospitality, but it wasn'talways this way.
My husband and I moved toThailand and through it I
experienced some loneliness andwith it I was given a choice to
(04:58):
sit back and accept it or to dosomething about it.
And for me, that meant twothings that I needed the healing
to learn how to accept aninvitation and the confidence to
know how to extend one.
Through this process, Ideveloped some of the richest
and deepest relationships of mylife.
Through Making Room by Gather,you will hear conversations from
(05:18):
myself and experts in the areasof food, design and
relationships.
You see there are countlessthings trying to keep us from
the table.
But can I tell you something?
Take a seat because you areready, you are capable, you are
a good host, okay, okay, so gladto be here.
(05:42):
We were just talking about howyou're in California.
I wish I was in California.
You said it was cold, whichmade me feel a little bit better
.
Speaker 2 (05:51):
It's cold in the morning.
It's already warming up, thoughI hate to tell you looking out
the window at a palm tree in thesun.
Speaker 1 (05:59):
There is this new airline near us that started
launching these insanelyaffordable flights to Florida
and I told my husband I was likeI think I'm just going to take
Wesley and go sometimes notforever, but for some breaks but
so excited to be here with you,chris, as we chat today.
(06:20):
We're pulling from somedifferent areas of your career
and your background.
I'm excited to kind of coverthe full scope, the full range.
But I want to start startasking you about this.
So you work with someincredible leaders as a results
coach.
We talked about it.
It's a life coach is what youwould call yourself, but also a
results coach.
I kind of like that.
(06:40):
I like that a little better,honestly.
But what was your experiencewith leaders growing up?
Because I'm sure there wassomething that led you to work
specifically in this area.
Speaker 2 (06:50):
That's a great question.
I don't know if I've ever hadthat question.
First of all, thank you forhaving me.
It's super great to be herewith you.
Yeah, my experience withleaders growing up, I had a lot
of really good leaders around me.
Yeah, I had my mom and my dadas first right and then, uh, I
had the opportunity to grow upin wonderful communities.
(07:13):
I grew up in anon-denominational church
community and had those you knowthe, the youth group I had.
I had a very good experiencewith the authority figures and
leaders.
In my life I've always soughtout mentors, as since I was
(07:33):
probably 14.
I remember going.
I went to the same summer campevery summer and I sought out,
you know my camp counselor,sought out you know my camp
counselor.
She was a woman older than meand from the time I was 14 on,
I've I've always valued mentors.
So, and then when I got older,I really valued, because a
(07:56):
mentor told me to always have amentor and always have a mentee
at least one.
So I think that is what it'sbeen great advice in my life.
So I always have at least one.
Right now I probably have threesolid, just mentors I check in
with that are women older thanme, more experienced than me,
that I check in with indifferent parts of my life every
(08:18):
week, and I have mentees aswell.
Speaker 1 (08:22):
So we've talked a little bit about having mentors
in some of the past episodes,but you're the first to bring up
also having a mentee, and sotell me more about that, like
what's the value in that for you?
Well, the value is or you don'thave to take it that way,
whatever direction like or whyyou would recommend it.
Speaker 2 (08:42):
Yeah, it's well humility.
For one, I think it really it.
It keeps me grounded and humblebecause I realized it's not
about I don't have perfectadvice.
I mean, I am a life coach, butI'm a life coach because of the
things I've struggled with in mylife and I feel like I am an
(09:05):
expert at serving the person Ionce was.
I'm not an expert at not doingthat right.
I'm not an expert at servingsomeone that is in an area that
I haven't traveled.
So I think having mentees is itreally humbles you and lets you
see, you know the best way to beof service to people is to
(09:29):
share stories and listen andlove and show grace and be
unconditional and to not.
As coaches, we're trained tonot tell, we ask, we don't give
advice, we ask questions and wetap into the client's
resourcefulness and creativity.
So that's what I do with mymentees.
(09:50):
It's really about bringingtheir light, shining their light
, reminding them of thestrengths they might not be
aware of, and it's definitelynot about telling or giving
advice.
So that having mentees in mylife is a great reminder of that
that I don't.
I don't know much.
All I know is how to serve theperson I once was.
Speaker 1 (10:12):
I was just going to ask you to bring that phrase
back up, because I've neverheard it phrased that way.
That is so profound.
So say that one more time,serving the person you once were
Well, I'm, I'm going to givecredit to my good friend, rory
Vaden.
Speaker 2 (10:27):
So he's the co-founder he and his wife of a
group I'm part of called BrandBuilders Group.
So I don't want to take credit,but that's his saying that we
are, and he helps thousands ofentrepreneurs and leaders that
we are most powerfullypositioned to serve the person
we once were.
Speaker 1 (10:48):
So you know what's so funny?
So I have a I'm part of like asmall group, like a women's
Bible study type thing, andthere's women from all walks of
life.
Okay, so there's this girl thatstarted asking me questions and
I kept saying like, oh well, Idon't know everything, but like
here's my answer, and she kindof stopped me in my tracks.
She was like Katie, you havesix years of experience more
(11:10):
than I do, right?
And I think we forget that,like even though we might not be
fully healed or fully to thepoint in business that we want
to be at or whatever, we haveexperience that other people
don't have that we're in, kindof like at the beginning we were
like what am I trying to say?
Do you know what I'm trying tosay?
I, I do Right.
Speaker 2 (11:31):
We, um, we're older than somebody, we've traveled
the road, especially as mothers,right Like I remember reaching
out to when you have the, thephase where they're just
spitting up on you and they'recrying and then they're teething
and you can't figure anythingout and it's just very alarming
If you don't, if you're not in acommunity of other people, that
(11:52):
that's happening to you'regoing to think you're all alone.
So it's very reassuring to knowyou're not alone and also to
talk to those older mothers whoalready went through it mostly,
so they can tell you this isnormal, you're not going to die.
You will make it to the otherend of this, right we, we?
(12:14):
I think life is meant to belived in community and there's
always something to share thatpeople that went ahead of us.
Speaker 1 (12:21):
Yes, your experience matters at every point in the
journey.
I think that's what I'm kind ofgetting at right, like you.
I mean, some people are inchapter 10, some people are
chapter one.
You don't have to wait untilyou're at the end of the book,
kind of thing to start startsharing.
You don't have to be 90.
You could share with you know,whatever you've lived.
So we're going to talk a lotabout that today.
I think that's so good.
(12:42):
So.
So we're going to talk a lotabout that today.
I think that's so good.
So I wasn't sure what to expectwhen I was asking you about
your experience with leaders.
I didn't know if maybe a seriesof bad leaders led you wanted
to continue that trend.
(13:02):
But how about your experiencewith alcohol in your family, in
your community?
Because we're going to betalking about sobriety and
alcohol a little bit today too.
Speaker 2 (13:11):
Yeah, I think that's a really important point.
This is a great time to bringup that point that you don't
have to have had a troubledchildhood or terrible authority
figures in your life to fallinto an addiction, and so you
can look like me.
You can be a mom with greatkids.
You can look great on theoutside.
(13:32):
I mean, I am I talk about thisin my books and I think we're
going to talk about this but I,I grew up a perfectionistic kid.
I, I'm like a high functioning,high achieving person that
looks good from the outside.
I have it all together.
So, by all you know, yeah,looking at me from the outside,
(13:53):
you would believe that Um, andso I think that's really
important that addiction,whether it's alcohol or anything
else, it doesn't care.
It doesn't care where you camefrom, it doesn't care, of course
.
Of course, our environmentplays into all kinds of
addiction and other things inour life.
It just doesn't have to.
(14:13):
So for me, I grew up in a thisis fun.
I grew up in a family ofteetotalers.
They didn't drink.
My parents didn't drink andthey were part of a denomination
that was pretty rigid nodancing, no drinking.
(14:37):
My parents and my relativeswere not, though they were
loving, not rigid, notlegalistic people.
In fact, when I was eight yearsold we left that denomination
and went to a non-denominationalchurch, but I just think
alcohol was never part of theirstory.
Because of that, andsocioeconomically people just
(14:58):
didn't have time or funds for it.
And then so none.
I didn't know anyone whoidentified as an alcoholic in my
whole life, like I did not haveaunts, uncles, cousins, you
know.
If they were, I didn't knowabout it.
My parents didn't drink.
Um, you know, there was a tinybit of that that when I got into
(15:18):
my high school just a verytypical public high school in my
town and people's parents diddrink and then the friends would
drink at parties or whatever.
I think there was a little bitthat was alarming for me, like,
oh my gosh, am I going to hell?
That type of thing.
But I would not say, I wouldnever say that played into my
(15:41):
addiction.
I just think that I got caughtin an addictive snare.
Alcohol is a poison, it's.
I'm not anti-alcohol, but forsome people it's not okay and
for me I'm the type of personthat's not okay it's very
addictive, it's.
It's an addictive substance.
So it alcohol, not other people, not me, not my environment is
(16:07):
the problem.
Wow, I believe.
Speaker 1 (16:10):
I'm really curious.
So my sisters and I we have afather who's an alcoholic and a
drug addict and he's notcurrently in our life just
because life is safer andhealthier that way and I think
I've shared a little bit of thatstory with our listeners safer
and healthier that way, and Ithink I've shared a little bits
of that story with our listeners.
But I remember when we wereapproaching 21, we were scared
to death of alcohol and I thinkwhat we realized is we had kind
(16:33):
of like addictive personalitytraits in other ways whether I
don't I have to study this alittle bit more whether it was
learned like learned behavior orjust in our DNA and so we kind
of introduced I think I drankalcohol last because I was so
scared of its effects on me.
But I remember as a kid I hadother addictive personality
(16:54):
traits, whether it was soda orcandy and I had to have it, or
like there were withdrawals whenI didn't have it.
And I know that sounds so silly, but if you have addictive
personality traits I guessyou'll know exactly what I'm
talking about.
Did you experience that as akid?
Like did you see early signs ofit wasn't alcohol, but it was
(17:17):
something else, definitely.
Speaker 2 (17:19):
Yes, I was addicted to exercise and running.
I had an eating disorder, andthat's definitely.
I think that's true.
I see it over and over again.
If you go into any recoverymeeting, you're going to hear
that story, the one you justtold, over and over again.
(17:39):
Some of us were just born,whether, no matter what our
environmental circumstances aresome of us are predisposed to
just not be able to process orhandle certain things.
You know and and it also thereare I go in the book.
In my book, grace Yourself, Ido start off in like chapter two
(18:01):
saying here are some addictionaccompaniers that I've noticed
over time and just being inrecovery meetings and having so
many friends in recovery for thepast 18 years, there's a lot of
things that I've noticed whereI can kind of see a kid and know
if that kid might have troublewith substances when they're
(18:21):
older, right, because of some ofthese traits.
So that's what your story isvery typical.
It's just part of being human.
Some of us are like that andyou need to be careful with
substances or or screens orwhatever it is.
We just need to take extraprecautions or screens or
whatever it is.
Speaker 1 (18:40):
We just need to take extra precautions.
Yeah, that's so, that's ahealthy, healthy mirror for a
lot of us, right?
And I'm so thankful for ahusband who doesn't have that
tendency at all to be able tosay, like Kate, I see it, I see
it rearing its head with thisagain and yeah, it's, it's good,
it's a good conversation tobring ourselves back to.
Well, we're going to jump tothis, back to this, in a few
(19:02):
minutes.
So the area of your bio that Ilove they've referenced it a few
times already is that you helphigh achieving perfectionists
navigate performance pressure.
Now, here's the deal.
We have a lot of listeners thatare entrepreneurs, slash
creatives.
We have a lot of listeners thatare parents.
We also have just the everydayhost who is trying to embrace
(19:26):
hospitality but is told byculture don't start until it's
perfect, right?
So we have perfectionism in afew different ways here.
Right, I know that theEnneagram is viewed differently
by different people, but it'sbeen a helpful tool for me.
I'm a three, so I'm an achiever, I'm a one or a hundred.
(19:46):
I tend to live that way, and soI'm sure there's a lot of us
that are approachingperfectionism in different ways
here For the people listeningthat are like, wow, I've never
heard anyone that works withpeople like me.
This is me.
Our hands are going up.
What are some of the thingsthat you I mean you could really
take this any direction, chris,because you work with people in
(20:09):
this position a lot what do youwish they knew?
What are helpful tools thatyou're like I wish culture was
saying, I guess tell us what youthink is valuable.
Speaker 2 (20:18):
Yeah, I'll share some tools too.
Um, and, and I and if you know,people don't get this in the
podcast the, the tools are inboth my books.
So I like the books are veryinteractive.
They give a tool and thenthere's places to fill in the
blanks.
Um, so I would say I wouldfirst define to me there's a
(20:38):
difference between perfectionismand a high growth.
Individual, like a high achieverand I think an achiever will be
find a lot of fuel and energytoward their goal.
They will do what it takes toreach that goal.
I'm an achiever where you knowwe're in fast forward a lot of
(21:00):
the time and that's okay.
We, we get a lot of stuff done.
We want to be careful withperfectionism because
perfectionism is different.
It can can invite shame, it caninvite guilt, unwanted guilt.
Some guilt can be helpful, likesome guilt can be leading us,
like, oh, I shouldn't have donethat, let's lead it.
(21:20):
There's also a guilt assessmentin the book.
But what we want to be carefulof is shame.
Like guilt is maybe I need tochange direction.
Shame is I'm a bad person, andthat just doesn't ever have a
place in anybody's lives.
So, in short, an achiever willdo what it takes to reach the
(21:40):
goal.
A perfectionist will, if theydon't reach the goal or if it's
not going the way they think itshould, it's trash.
They'll, literally.
I have one kid that is aperfectionist and and a highly,
highly creative artist, and as avery, very young child he would
(22:01):
draw, and if it wasn't perfectit was crumpled up and thrown in
the trash.
That's perfectionism.
And so if we carry that intoadulthood he's did not carry
that into adulthood, but if wedo, we run into all kinds of
snares and when we can't handlethe pressure, that can lead to
addiction.
Right, because we ha, we arehuman and we have to find a
(22:23):
coping mechanism.
And so when we find a soother,it becomes a ritualistic soother
, and if that's a harmful thing,like a harmful substance, that
ritualistic soother will turninto an addiction, a harmful
addiction that ritualisticsoother will turn into an
addiction, a harmful addiction.
Speaker 1 (22:42):
I love powerful, helpful phrases, and that is a
new one to me a ritualisticsoother, that's so I mean that's
.
You're describing addictionwith that.
Speaker 2 (22:55):
I mean in my view.
Yes, that's how I describe itin my book.
You know it's a wide topic.
Everybody's going to come withtheir research and all their
things.
Like I said, I don't know if wewere recording when I said to
you at the beginning, so I'llsay it for the listeners but I'm
not an addiction expert and I'mnot a sobriety coach.
(23:18):
I'm a life coach and I have alot of great coaching tools.
But I am an expert at servingthe person.
I once was.
So I'm an expert at sharing myown story, and I was addicted to
alcohol and now I'm not, and soI share that in the latest book
.
So mine is not based on a tonof research.
(23:38):
It's based on, you know, mystory in the book is based on my
story, what I've learned inbeing in recovery over the last
18 years and from hearingthousands of other people's
stories.
Yeah, Wow.
Speaker 1 (23:53):
Well, I have a few thoughts here.
But when my husband and I firstgot married, I was starting
kind of like a.
It's a very long story.
I'm happy to answer anyquestions anyone has, but here's
just like a little snippet ofit.
So I was starting this likeat-home bakery and I was baking
cakes.
I was a new baker, had neverbeen formally taught and I had
this view that I had to achievethis Pinterest picture the first
(24:17):
time.
I baked Right, and I always.
So I've come a long way.
I've had.
I have hundreds of cakes in mytoolbox now.
So, when people see me nowthey're like oh my gosh, these
cakes are incredible.
And I'm like you have no ideawhat would happen was all of
these cakes, as I was learning,didn't come up perfect, straight
in the trash, chris.
So, just like your son, thatwas the artist.
(24:38):
I couldn't even look at it, Icouldn't have evidence of it, I
didn't want to take pictures.
I have very few pictures of thefailed cakes, so I didn't want
any evidence that they existed.
And my poor husband would sayKate, there's, it's still flour,
sugar and butter.
Like I still want to eat it.
Can you at least put it in thefreezer?
And I'm like no, as no placehere.
(24:58):
So I get it, I do get it, and Ithink that that breakdown of
achievers and perfectionistshelps me, helps me to identify,
I guess myself, the differentphases.
I think it will help a lot ofus actually.
Speaker 2 (25:13):
Yeah, yeah, Well.
And then you asked about tools.
I kind of skipped over thatpart, but you brought up such a
good, that's such a greatexample.
Like if I were coaching thatold version of you that was
throwing away the cakes, itprobably would have been
delicious.
The exercise I use is so simple.
(25:34):
It's just so.
We create standards that are toohigh as perfectionists, Right,
and that's where we get pressure.
So what I have clients do islook at the rules they make and
sometimes these are subconscious.
We don't know they're happening.
The rules we create that weneed to put in place to make
(25:56):
that standard happen or thatRight.
So, like in your case, I wouldhave how this you know, as an
example.
I would say um, so your, yourstandard was a certain cake
right now.
That's not your husband'sstandard, that's not my standard
and that was your standard.
(26:16):
So if you were my client backthen, I would have said tell me,
you know, how will you knowwhen you've baked that cake?
So we're going to get realspecific about what that perfect
cake looks like.
And then we're going to gothrough and I'm really big into
having everything written withpencil and paper because it gets
it into our physiology and andbrain while we're writing.
(26:40):
But I would have had you writedown the rules you had for
creating that perfect cake, whathas to happen for this cake to
be perfect, and you might'vetold me I mean what.
What would you have said, Like,what were name one or two rules
?
You would have had.
Speaker 1 (26:57):
This sounds so silly to non-bakers.
No air bubbles in the frosting.
Speaker 2 (27:00):
Okay.
So that's a great example.
So then I'd have you write downno air bubbles in the frosting
and then I would Um no, no, it'snot Okay.
So, since it's not, we're goingto toss that and we're going to
(27:28):
.
Then we're going to go througha series of exercises to help
you like a muscle at the gym.
We have to form a new narrativeto get rid of that.
But basically you're only goingto keep the things that are
within your control, because youset rules for your goal that
are outside of your control,like a big one that people said
(27:48):
especially, I bet, inhospitality is.
You know they want to have aparty, but maybe one of the
rules for a successful party iseverybody has to have fun.
Well, you have no control overthat.
We don't control other people,so we have to ditch that one too
.
So we need to keep our rulesonly within what's in our
(28:09):
control and keep them realistic,and you know that we go through
all of that.
So that's my greatest tool forhelping people navigate
performance pressure.
A lot of this stuff just hasgot to be ditched.
And then I have a great exercisethat is in both books.
It's just how to when you justhow to know cause.
(28:31):
I think feelings are actionsignals.
So when you feel a way youdon't want to feel like maybe
it's pressure, or maybe you feellike a failure, or you feel
like you're about toself-sabotage, you feel like
your cake's a failure, that's athat's not wrong, it's just an
action signal.
So then we're going to find out, we're going to unpack that and
(28:51):
find out where that, what,where'd that come from?
It came from a narrative goingthrough your head, and then
we're going to fact check it.
Is that true?
No, is it within my control?
No.
Speaker 1 (29:01):
And so then we're going to flip it and reframe it
to something better it is sohelpful to hear that there are
like rules, like subconsciousrules that we set, the only, as
you were saying that I wentthrough a season of counseling
when we were in Thailand.
It was mandated counseling andI'm so thankful it was the best
thing that ever happened in mylife.
It's kind of like tail endhealing from eating disorder
(29:24):
phase, and she heard me saysomething about like a shirt
that I was wearing or something,and she mirrored back to me
that I had dress code rules formyself that I didn't even know I
had, Right, and so I was likeman and just hearing them, she
fished them out of my mouth.
So it was man, she was good,but I, when you said that, I'm
(29:48):
like, oh my gosh, there arerules that I have in my own life
that I didn't even realize thatI set.
And listeners I mean it'sprobably the first time
listeners are hearing that thereare hospitality rules and
relationship rules and foodrules, right, I mean food rules
is a huge one, probably withhostesses, Like.
I hear people say like, well, Ican't serve frozen food and I'm
(30:10):
like, well, why not?
But it's kind of like a rulethat we've bought into.
Oof man, Chris, this is good,kind of like a rule that we've
bought into Oof man.
Chris, this is good and theseare tell me what book this is?
Speaker 2 (30:25):
This lab.
The rules are in.
Standards are in my latest book.
This is the advanced.
Yeah, it's the new one comingout February 18th, but you can
pre-order it now.
Grace yourself how to show upfor theber Life you Want.
Speaker 1 (30:41):
Okay, I was hoping it was this one and not your first
one, because we got to plugthis one.
Speaker 2 (30:44):
It's not all about.
I mean, it's about it explainsthese types of things, and the
way I do that is sharing mystory with sobriety.
So in that sense, it's a bookon sobriety, but it's also a
book on so much more.
Speaker 1 (31:01):
Man so good.
I've heard people over theyears say like even if you don't
struggle with alcohol, likeeveryone could benefit from
things like AA, the 12 steps arewonderful.
Yes, is that I mean?
I know we're not talking aboutthat today, but I feel like
there are there's like levels offreedom that people don't tap
into until it's things arealmost out of control.
(31:24):
But it's like, man, there's somuch Right we could benefit from
.
Speaker 2 (31:28):
Yeah, there are hundreds of us, millions
probably in recovery that justfeel so grateful.
You know that we are therebecause we get to work on all
these things.
Speaker 1 (31:40):
So good man, so good.
Well, let's keep going withthis.
So, um, you actually justanswered a question I had about
hospitality, but yourrelationship with alcohol, I
think, is one that is morecommon than many of us realize.
Um, partially because a lot ofpeople walking through it are
(32:00):
silent about the journey.
I think that culture says it'sshameful, there's no place for
it to talk about when you feellike you're struggling with it.
It's also, I don't know, it'san uncomfortable topic to have
with family and friends.
We live in an alcohol-saturatedculture right now.
Family and friends, we live inan alcohol saturated culture
(32:22):
right now.
But tell us, I guess, what ledyou to lead this conversation
and to kind of grab a hold ofyour own freedom.
Speaker 2 (32:29):
Yeah, I well, I was sober.
I got sober when the kids werelittle, and this was in 2007.
And back then there was wedidn't have mocktails and people
going alcohol free for healthchoices.
It was really, and, like Iexplained, I didn't grow up
(32:51):
around, um, people that haddrinking problems, um, drinking
problems Um, and so that I knewof, and so it was really, um,
you're either an alcoholic oryou're not.
You're a normal drinker oryou're.
This was, you know, in 2007.
So I went to.
(33:12):
I knew in my gut I could notdrink alcohol.
That it was, even though ithadn't really manifested to
everybody else yet, because Istill had people telling me oh
honey, you don't have a problemwith that.
I really did them, but myhusband and I were the only ones
that kind of noticed it,because I was a housewife at
home with small babies and justhaving too much to drink while I
(33:36):
was cooking, and it was quiet.
It was quietly just killing mysoul and about to kill me
physically, and so I reallydidn't know where to go.
So I went to a sober communitythat I looked up online one
night and I was scared to death.
It was an all women's group andI went the next day and it
(33:59):
changed my life because a womanin the group said you know,
again I'd never met other peoplewith the same problem as I was
experiencing the same struggle,and this woman said she knew I
was brand new.
She said it's not your fault,it's like an allergy.
You have a condition, there's asolution, stay here, we're
(34:19):
going to help you.
And that is why belief is sucha big part of my writing.
I have an exercise in bothbooks about belief, because my
belief about myself up to thatpoint when that woman said that
was the fact, was I'm addictedto alcohol.
I had this story attached tothat fact that I'm a monster
(34:42):
because I can't stop.
And it was a really ridiculousnarrative because I was
successful in all other areas ofmy life except this one.
I'm a very disciplined person,I have a lot of willpower, but
with this I couldn't get itunder control because it's a
highly addictive substance.
I didn't know all that then.
(35:02):
I thought I was the problem.
So when she said that, mybelief switched from you know,
the fact was still the same I'maddicted, but the belief
switched from I'm a monster toI'm just an addicted woman
deserving of community andrecovery.
I'm just an addicted womandeserving of community and
recovery, and so I was able tostay sober.
I stayed in that community andI was sober just short of 14
(35:35):
years.
And then, in 2020, we moved, andthis whole story is in my book,
so I'll just give you thenutshell.
But we moved to my book.
So I'll just give you thenutshell.
But we moved to.
I'd never left California.
We moved out of state.
Um, I was a brand new emptynester.
I don't think I processed that.
I just kind of said this newadventure, let's, you know, take
up golf and let's do thesethings.
I didn't really.
Bottom line is I decided Ididn't think I was an alcoholic.
(35:58):
I didn't think I was.
I forgot the reasons I stoppeddrinking in the first place and
I decided to invite it back intomy life.
I had this false belief that Idon't think I ever had a problem
.
I think the reason I couldn'tdrink was all these other things
in my life, all these otherpressures, and the second I
(36:20):
invited it back.
I knew, without a doubt nope,it was the alcohol.
I can't process it and you know, I have changed, I have evolved
, but alcohol has not, and sowhen that happens.
It is because addiction is sucha beast.
It was so difficult for me toget sober a second time.
It was like there's a saying wehave in recovery that it's
(36:43):
easier to stay sober than to getsober, and that's very true.
So it was.
It was a battle trying to getmy sobriety back.
So I wrote this book to kind ofjust document what that was
like and what I learned.
And I wouldn't have learned the.
I mean I'm glad it worked outand I'm here and I'm sober again
(37:05):
, but I could have died.
You know I'm I'm just happy I'mback.
But I wrote it all down so thatit wouldn't be wasted and
hopefully somebody else doesn'thave to do the same field trip I
went on, doesn't have to do thesame field trip I went on.
Speaker 1 (37:18):
Well, you talk about how community was a lifeline.
I think you use the term inEpiPen, right?
Is that what you refer to themas?
Speaker 2 (37:44):
I did in the book.
I've never said that, otherthan what I read nut allergies
and um.
You know as young children thatI carried an EpiPen and so it's
in.
An EpiPen buys you time untilyou get it doesn't save your
life.
It buys you 20 minutes of timeuntil you get to the ER, the
ambulance comes.
So I just thought that was agood analogy that it addiction
can be like an allergy and acommunity can be like an EpiPen,
where it's it's not going tosave your life.
(38:05):
There's a lot of other thingsthat are at play, but it it is,
it will.
It will save your life one dayat a time.
Right, it's, it is one of thekey.
I just don't think people canget sober with or be.
I don't think people can likeme can be sober without
(38:28):
community.
I think there are a lot ofpeople not like me who are sober
for health reasons and they'realcohol free for wellness, and
that's so wonderful.
I'm so happy the world is goingthat direction.
I don't I'm not suggesting theyall need a community, but if
someone struggled with addiction, I think community is key.
Speaker 1 (38:52):
Yeah, so I want to expand on this just a little bit
.
So we have listeners that maybeare kind of like in a similar
situation as you like a similarlifestyle and recovery.
We also have people that arelike man.
I don't struggle with alcohol,but I have people in my life
that do.
How would you say that we canbest be community to support
(39:15):
people in our life that aresober?
Speaker 2 (39:25):
sober, curious Like how can we be that EpiPen to
them?
That's a really good, that's avery compassionate question.
Yeah, my good friends will askme that no, I don't drink.
Do you care if I drink?
Is it okay if we serve drink?
Those are polite questions.
If you're a host, I thinkthat's a really polite,
hospitable question.
My answer is always I don'tcare at all, it doesn't bother
(39:46):
me at all.
I my sobriety.
I'm not tempted at all by otherpeople drinking, and a lot of
people are like me Because if II were, I couldn't.
I mean, if I didn't have myrecovery figured out and being
taken care of in in a sobercommunity, I wouldn't be able to
(40:10):
go out in the world becauseit's everywhere.
So I think that's a politequestion, though, and I'll just
let people know I don't care atall.
I do have things.
Like my husband knows, I don'tserve alcohol.
That's just my thing.
I'm not making this suggestionfor other people, but I just
know things that I've I've putin place that.
I just are my little um, tipsand and routine.
(40:32):
I don't buy alcohol at thegrocery store, I don't serve it
and no one notices those things.
Right, If we're hosting, myhusband buys the alcohol, he
serves the alcohol, he opens thewine, so, and nobody else ever
notices those things.
Speaker 1 (40:48):
So I think it's important to notice too that
there is kind of like a range,right, like I've only had
friends over the years that arelike I can't smell it, cause
like the smell depending on whatstage you're at, right, and so
I think it is good to ask thosequestions, like you're saying,
because, um and and to be aware,as a host, that the answers
might vary based on where youare on the recovery journey,
(41:11):
right.
Speaker 2 (41:12):
That's very smart.
Be aware that they'll, they andand don't cause anybody else to
stumble right.
It's like, yeah, my husband,yeah, if we're going to be
kissing or whatever he won'thave alcohol right, he's very
(41:34):
polite about it.
Speaker 1 (41:35):
Yeah, that's good, just aware, compassionate.
Yeah, I mean it's a hard thingbecause, you know, I do love a
glass of wine at a holiday party, but I'm very aware, like my
and I'm also Italian and I cookwith a lot of wine.
I cook with white wines, I cookwith Marsala, all those things.
And we have a new member of ourfamily that has been sober for
a long time and I was like, oh,wow, I, I just like.
(41:58):
I recently was just reminded,like, oh, I should ask if he's
okay that I cook with wine.
And I've had different answersto that question over the years.
Like for him he's kind of saida similar thing to you, like
that that doesn't affect me,like that's fine when it's in
the chicken.
But I have had people, um,friends, say, oh, thank you for
asking, like, can you usesomething else?
Speaker 2 (42:18):
So yeah, I.
I would say to hosts anyonehosting a party, go ahead and
ask.
We appreciate it.
Speaker 1 (42:24):
Yeah, Because I don't like.
Speaker 2 (42:25):
I don't have desserts that aren't that the alcohol is
not cooked off.
That's great.
It's like a liqueur, achocolate with liqueur I stay
away from.
But I don't mind if it's in alot of sauces and it cooks off.
So same thing with a lot ofpeople are okay drinking in a
beers or in a things, I'm okayhaving mocktails, but some
(42:46):
people in sobriety, that's a bigno-no because they feel like it
triggers their, their brainsomehow.
So it's, it is different foreverybody, which is good for
hosts to know.
Speaker 1 (42:58):
How about celebrating and I'm probably going to get
the terminology wrong, so pleasecorrect me, but like the,
you're like sober, it's notbirthday.
Speaker 2 (43:09):
Yeah, sometimes I call them sober versaries or you
call them birthdays though Isthat?
Speaker 1 (43:16):
is that something that's meaningful to you?
And maybe this varies.
Speaker 2 (43:18):
It's very meaningful, and I do write about this too.
I it's.
It's again.
No, it's different for everyperson.
So you guys just have to knowwhat it is for you.
For me, I love, I thinkcelebration is very important
and I do celebrate milestones.
I get really excited about it,um.
But when I was trying to getthat second sobriety back, I
(43:39):
made a point to not count daysbecause it was tripping me up.
That perfectionism kicked in.
But see, not everybody has thatold perfectionistic tendency
that I struggled with as a youngkid, so they might not have
that problem.
So you have to know yourself.
I would say if it's moving youforward, do it, and if it's not,
dump it.
(43:59):
There's no formula, there's noright or wrong there.
Yeah, whatever works.
Speaker 1 (44:05):
It's a good thing, just as community, to maybe
bring up to a friend or a familymember, maybe mark the day if
you think of them saying it, andfollow up a year later and
write a card, send a text, Idon't know, like there's so many
ways to be intentional.
I guess my last question is howabout accountability?
And I know that some people doaccountability very well.
(44:29):
Other people are still learning.
But I mean, what role huh Doyou like when people I don't
know like what doesaccountability look like in
community?
Speaker 2 (44:37):
Well, I have a sober mentor and she's my
accountability and she's one ofmy mentors that's older and I
don't want yeah, unless I'veasked for it, I don't want it.
I don't want somebody checkingin with me.
My husband doesn't check inwith me because the truth is
(44:58):
we're adults, we're going to dowhat we want, Right and so but.
But I think it is important toask somebody and to be
intentional about having anaccountability partner.
Awesome, but everybody elsedoes not.
Speaker 1 (45:14):
I'm so glad we talked about that, though, because so
so many of these things it'sjust important to be intentional
with and understand the rolesof community and how to ask.
It's good, it's really good.
Thank you for being sovulnerable with all of that.
Well, last but not least, we'regoing to talk about shame just
for a bit, and we're going toend on the topic of hope.
(45:34):
So, if anyone's like man, we'regetting deep.
We're going to end with hope.
So this I'm going to quote youdirectly.
So I think it's from your book,I think it's a quote that's
pulled from there.
So shame is a liar.
Regardless of how high or lowyou set your standards and
whether or not you reach them,you are worthy and loved and
(45:56):
whole.
You are a priceless treasure,whether you are addicted or
sober, guilty or innocent, sickor healthy, stalled or growing.
Oh my gosh, I'm going to getchoked up.
Seeking or knowing there isnothing you could do or think to
negate your worth, and shameholds no power, right or
authority in your life.
I feel like so many of us findourselves under a heavy blanket
(46:21):
of shame, whether it's in thecontext of sobriety, whether
it's another form of shame, andwe don't even know that we are,
or what shame is.
I remember again the first timemy mentor told me Katie, I
think you're struggling withshame, and this started like a
process for me.
So I guess to start a processthat was liberating, I will add.
(46:43):
I guess my first question ishow does someone know if they're
wrestling with shame?
Speaker 2 (46:52):
The best way to know is to use your feelings as
indicators.
So if you're feeling a way youdon't want to feel disempowered,
sad, depressed, not good enough, unworthy, those are just some
feelings.
There's zillions of them.
That's when you're going to,like I had mentioned the four
(47:13):
F's Just use that feeling as anaction signal.
It's not wrong.
None of our feelings are wrong.
We do want to bring.
Some of them are so deep downand subconscious that we want to
start listening to these thingsrattling through the
subconscious.
So feelings are a great way todo that.
You feel a way you don't wantto feel great.
Stop celebrate your awareness,then immediately ask find it.
(47:36):
That's the second Like.
I do feel it, find it, factcheck it, frame it.
So find it.
It's probably, if you thinkabout what just went through
your head and it might besubconscious, it's probably a
lousy thought or lousy questionthat's not serving you.
So then you'll fact check that,right.
And so you'll say so.
(47:58):
Then you'll fact check that,right.
And so you'll say is that true,right?
So say the.
The feeling of like shame is afeeling, and maybe the thing
rattling through our head is whydo I always do this?
Why can't I get it right.
Why is this happening to me?
Those types of things neverserve us, but we might not know
that they're rattling throughour head until we find them
(48:20):
right.
So those I call lousy questions, and when your brain asks a
question like that, it can'tanswer it in a positive way.
It will answer it with a lousyanswer.
So instead of answering thelousy question, we're going to
reframe it to something thatserves us, and a lot of my work
(48:42):
with clients is coming up withmantras or affirmations or a new
narrative even before we fullybelieve it.
So we're going to say it.
You know I am.
You said something at the ohshould have written it down, but
(49:02):
you said a really good one inthe beginning.
Yeah, it's, I am.
You know.
Let's just say I am intentional, I am worthy, I am.
Just start pouring out all thepositive things and you might.
It's okay.
It took a long time to writethat old, lousy story.
So it will.
It's like a muscle at the gym.
It'll take time to conditionthe new story and we just have
(49:27):
to keep saying it or writingwhatever works for you.
Put it on your wallpaper, youknow, your screensaver, or your
sticky notes or um, wherever, sothat you are remembering these
new narratives every day andthen conditioning them.
Speaker 1 (49:46):
So good.
I think that's such a good umHmm, I always use the word.
I always say this is such agood invitation, but it really
is.
It's a good invitation to beable to deal with shame.
I think you know, I tell Ispeak to hosts a lot and in the
context of hospitality, and I'llsay a lot of us could be the
(50:07):
next Martha Stewart.
A lot of us are very skilled atfood and design and all of
these things, and we're like man.
What is this missing key toconnection, to relationship?
And for a lot of us, it's thethis heart work.
And for me, for a lot of years,it was.
I was living under thiscrushing blanket of shame and as
you start to deal with that andfind freedom, um, there is so
(50:30):
much that opens up in life andin relationships and, um, it's,
it's worth the work.
Speaker 2 (50:37):
It's worth it.
Yeah, and I think so.
The book is called GraceYourself, and I think it's
important because people have adifferent, a lot of people have
a different definition of grace,and so I just don't think.
I think grace has a lot to dowith shame, because I don't
think they coexist.
And so one thing you did say atthe beginning, that is in your
(51:01):
intro, that I love you saidaccept an invitation and extend
one.
And to me that's I'm a personof faith, so to me grace is
about God's grace and it'sunmerited favor.
And it's like that definitionof shame you read is from my new
book, and that's what I mean.
It's this unmerited favor that,no matter what you're worthy,
(51:29):
just because you were born, youknow we're going to have a more
fun life and a more productivelife and a more joy-filled life
and a more abundant life if weembrace these positive
narratives.
But whether or not we do thatdoesn't change our worth.
Like I could still be in anactive addiction and I might
feel shameful about that, I'lldefinitely feel really bad, but
(51:55):
the truth is, I believe thatwouldn't change my worth, Wow.
And so I think that, like yousay, accept an invitation.
We have been given an invitationof grace and all we have to do
is accept it, but, as a personwho used to be a perfectionist
(52:17):
and who used it, got caught upin these ritualistic suitors and
addiction.
Control is a big part of that,because we're controlling.
We're wanting to control allour outcomes, we're wanting to
control the way we feel, ourstate right, and it is very
difficult.
As a young person, it was verydifficult for me to accept grace
(52:39):
, because I thought I needed tocontrol my own worth.
So I was like you can't tell mewhat I deserve and what I don't
.
I don't deserve this.
I want to feel shameful.
Well, that's not acceptinggrace, because grace is free and
we get it no matter what.
We do have to accept it, though, and then, like you said, we
(53:03):
have to extend it.
Speaker 1 (53:06):
So so powerful.
I feel like we can keep talkingabout this.
I really could.
I could dive deep, because thisis like I love depth, and I
think so many of us crave it anddon't know how to put words to
it.
And you put words to it so well.
But I was raised in the church anon-denominational church my
whole life.
So since I was four and movedto Thailand, lived on the
(53:30):
missions field for a while,serving in a multicultural like,
a lot of different religions, alot of different nationalities,
and I was babysitting thislittle girl.
She had to be four or five atthe time and her parents were
away.
It was the first time I watcheda little kid this length of
time and I think it was like1030 in the morning.
(53:52):
We were on a bike ride, drivingpast this kind of like a
convenience store, like a7-Eleven, and she said Katie,
can I have?
She was a little bit choked up,missing her parents, and she
said Katie, can I have an icecream?
And I said, oh, I'm sorry,sweetheart, we can't, we have to
have lunch first.
And she said she looked mestraight in the eyes, she like
spoke to my soul and she said.
She said, katie, can you justhave some grace with me.
(54:15):
And it was the first time I'veheard grace talked about in that
way and in a second Iunderstood it.
I was like, oh my gosh, ofcourse.
And then I was like how comethis four-year-old understands
grace more than I do?
Isn't that funny?
And obviously we're talkingabout it in a much deeper light
(54:37):
as adults.
But I was like that simpletruth of like I know it's not an
example of God's gracenecessarily, but I was like
sometimes we just need people toextend it.
I don't know, show us.
Yeah, I love that.
Speaker 2 (54:51):
I really love that because, yeah, if you have to
have your lunch first, you'reearning it right, you're earning
the dessert, and yeah, I know.
Speaker 1 (55:05):
It's not necessarily an exact mirror, but it made me,
it invited me to wrestle withgrace for the first time, and I
think that's really what it didfor me, with grace for the first
time, and I think that's reallywhat it did for me.
And and I was like alsoparenting note to teach my kids
(55:26):
grace from a young age, causethose parents, man, they were
onto something and that sweetlittle girl got an ice cream
cone that day before lunch.
Okay, well, we are.
I guess I'll wrap this up, like, if anyone is like, wait, don't
wrap up yet, we still got tokeep talking.
There's so much to dig intohere.
Go buy Chris's book.
Um, if you're watching this onYouTube I think I'm posting the
(55:46):
video.
Um, grace yourself.
Uh, you can pre-order the book.
Uh, if you're listening beforeFebruary, if you're listening
after, you can go ahead andorder it.
Um, or, my goodness, people canwork with you too, right, they
can.
Speaker 2 (55:59):
Yeah, and, and a lot of this is in my um first book,
living all in has great exercise.
That's available now on Amazon.
Grace yourself will beavailable where books are sold.
People can work with me on mywebsite.
It's chrisjansencoachingcom,and so you can contact me there.
You can read about my coachingand and all of that good stuff.
Speaker 1 (56:20):
So good, so so good.
Well, let's wrap up with thesame questions we ask all of our
guests.
Um the sun?
If you're watching this video,the sun is like doing weird
things with my screen.
It's like a spotlight.
But let's wrap up with the samethree questions we ask each of
our guests.
So the first one is somethingyou have eaten recently and
(56:42):
loved.
Speaker 2 (56:44):
I well it's fall.
I've been really into thisvegan tomato basil soup, and I'm
not vegan, but I don't love thetaste of heavy cream, and so if
somebody makes a tomato basilsoup without heavy cream, it's
just.
I just love it.
I love basil.
I just had some last night atum of all places.
(57:05):
We went to Disneyland yesterday, my husband and I, yeah and um.
There was this good restaurantin California adventure park
that served this vegan tomatobasil soup.
It was so good.
Speaker 1 (57:19):
I've heard him.
I live so far from both of theDisney's that we don't have
there a lot but, I've heard suchgood things about the food
scene.
Oh yeah, it's like wonderfulgood food.
Yeah, and I'm, I'm gluten free,dairy free.
Speaker 2 (57:31):
So, but when you could eat at Disneyland, for
sure, oh my gosh, I gotta go, Igotta go.
Speaker 1 (57:37):
That sounds amazing.
I have to say this puts alittle damper on it.
When I was pregnant so I'mItalian, huge like red sauce
tomato family you know, I couldnot.
The one thing I couldn't havewas red sauce or anything tomato
based, and so I haven'tventured back, actually since
Wesley's been born.
But I could have some tomatosoup today.
(57:57):
I could stomach it.
So I'm actually going to switchback to our old second question
, and it's something that youhave found to be beautiful
lately.
Speaker 2 (58:10):
Oh, I mean, how long do you have?
I mean, how long do you have I?
Just I got to have.
So I have three grown kids, andI say I have five kids because
two of them are married, and soI got to have all five at my
(58:30):
Thanksgiving table last week andit was so beautiful.
I I feel like every year getsbetter because our relationships
get deeper.
And, um, you know, I talkedabout when we went around the
table for what we're thankfulfor, I, the two that have their,
their partners.
(58:51):
I just said I'm so gratefulthat the whole family embraced
my child right, that the whole,not just that they found their
significant other, but thatthey're loved by that person's
parents and family.
That's always been reallyimportant to me for who my kids
end up with, and that was that'sjust been a huge source of
(59:15):
beauty right now andthankfulness in my life.
Speaker 1 (59:19):
Wow, that's a really great answer.
And, last but not least,something you have discovered
recently that you think everyoneshould know about an Amazon
purchase, a Netflix show, a food, anything.
Speaker 2 (59:33):
So I love these I don't know how to pronounce it
Ufos recovery sandals.
I think it's O-O-F-O-S orO-F-O-O-S but it's Ufos and
their recovery sandals.
I wear mine inside the houseand they're a little bit like.
I think they're a little priceybut it will save on doctor
(59:56):
bills because your back is goingto feel great and brings me
great joy.
I just love putting them on andI just feel like I stand up
straight.
Speaker 1 (01:00:07):
I'll tag them in the show notes.
I'm kind of in that stage whereI'd rather have fewer higher
quality things than a closetfull of like fast fashion.
You know what I mean?
I no, I'm with you.
I'd rather a good pair ofsandals that are going to last
me five-ish years, you know then, yeah, that sounds great.
Well, thank you so much fortaking this time, for being so
(01:00:29):
vulnerable.
I've kind of learned throughthis conversation how much I
have to learn about sobriety,really.
I mean, it's so important forus to stay teachable, to have
conversations, to ask questions,and thank you for sharing parts
of your story and inviting usinto all of that.
I appreciate it.
Oh, thanks, katie, I loved yourquestions.
Thank you, oh sweet.
(01:00:50):
Well, I'm so glad we're newfriends and I'm sure this is not
the last we're going to see you.
So, um, thank you guys.
So much for tuning in.
Um, be sure to follow Chris onall of her social pages and, uh,
purchase the book and we willsee you next week.
Speaker 2 (01:01:07):
Oops, I love that picture of you.
Is that your husband?
Hey guys, welcome back to Making Room.
I'm so glad you're here.
You will see me sipping on myChristmas mug and cozying up
with my blanket because I'vedecided I'm fully embracing the
season.
It is a little bit chilly herein Connecticut and you guys know
I fought hard.
I fought the change of weatherhard, but I'm excited.
Little Wesley is 15 months thismonth.
(00:21):
He's at a really fun phasephase pulling all the ornaments
off the tree already.
But something about this yearjust seems sweeter.
Well, a few weeks ago we wereintroduced to a new friend.
Her name is chris and there isso much about her background and
her new book that wasinteresting to me and I know
will be interesting to you guysas well, and we're going to be
(00:41):
talking about her sobrietyjourney which especially,
especially this time of year mygoodness, the holidays, starting
a new year is so relevant,whether it's personal to you or
maybe someone in your life.
But as I was reading her bio,there were other kind of key
words that have been a huge partof my own life and my own
journey that I want to dive intoas well.
Words like high-achieving,perfectionist or perfectionism
(01:05):
we're going to dive into that.
Words like shame and somethingI love about the word shame you
guys will know what I mean notlove about it, but can
appreciate about it is so manyof us don't even realize that
it's something that we'redealing with or that we're
carrying or that we're livingunder.
And I had a mentor when wefirst moved to Thailand.
I was mid-20s and she said heyKatie, I think you're living
(01:28):
under shame, I think you'rewrestling with shame, and that
was the first time that had everbeen said to me.
That's the first time my eyeswere ever opened to it and it
started this whole journey forme that a lot of us, I don't
think, have worked through yet,and so I'm excited to bring that
conversation to you as well.
Well, chris, if I don't sayyour last name right, I want you
(01:50):
to correct me when we hoponline together.
But Chris Jansen yes,performance and mindset I love
that niche.
And a best-selling,award-winning author.
She has worked with hundreds ofsought-after athletes,
creatives, soldiers,entrepreneurs and small
(02:12):
businesses internationally,helping them to close the gap
between where they are and wherethey want to be.
I feel like all of our handsjust shot up and they're like
add me to your list.
In addition to her academicachievements.
Chris trained with and workedwith Tony Robbins which, as an
entrepreneur, I'm kind of likefangirling over a little bit and
(02:36):
his team of results coaches atthe number one personal
development and peak performingstrategy company in the world.
As a board-certified coach witha Master's in Counseling
Psychology and over 25 years ofexperience, chris excels in
helping high-achievingperfectionists navigate
performance pressure, overcomeself-sabotage and rewrite
(02:56):
narratives.
Through her successful andsustainable living, all-in
methodsients learn to attachmeaning to life events and
circumstances beyond theircontrol.
A California narrative.
Chris and her husband, scott,have been married for nearly 30
years.
Together they raised 3 children, now thriving young adults.
Chris and Scott split theirtime between Los Angeles and
(03:19):
Colorado.
They love to ski golf, be withtheir horses and adventure
outside.
I am excited to dive in, butbefore we do, guys, this time of
year is so full, it is so busy.
No matter how much you try tocreate some kind of routine and
rhythm and slow down, it usuallydoes.
(03:41):
Christmas seems like it'scoming faster.
Don't try to do it all.
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.
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(04:02):
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Or if you live in the Northeastand you want to take advantage
(04:35):
of Feast and Fettle, head onover to their website,
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week.
Hi, I'm Katie, a hospitalityeducator and the host of Making
Room by Gather podcast.
I am set to see our communitiesget back to the table through
hospitality, but it wasn'talways this way.
My husband and I moved toThailand and through it I
experienced some loneliness andwith it I was given a choice to
(04:58):
sit back and accept it or to dosomething about it.
And for me, that meant twothings that I needed the healing
to learn how to accept aninvitation and the confidence to
know how to extend one.
Through this process, Ideveloped some of the richest
and deepest relationships of mylife.
Through Making Room by Gather,you will hear conversations from
(05:18):
myself and experts in the areasof food, design and
relationships.
You see there are countlessthings trying to keep us from
the table.
But can I tell you something?
Take a seat because you areready, you are capable, you are
a good host, okay, okay, so gladto be here.
(05:42):
We were just talking about howyou're in California.
I wish I was in California.
You said it was cold, whichmade me feel a little bit better
.
Speaker 2 (05:51):
It's cold in the morning.
It's already warming up, thoughI hate to tell you looking out
the window at a palm tree in thesun.
Speaker 1 (05:59):
There is this new airline near us that started
launching these insanelyaffordable flights to Florida
and I told my husband I was likeI think I'm just going to take
Wesley and go sometimes notforever, but for some breaks but
so excited to be here with you,chris, as we chat today.
(06:20):
We're pulling from somedifferent areas of your career
and your background.
I'm excited to kind of coverthe full scope, the full range.
But I want to start startasking you about this.
So you work with someincredible leaders as a results
coach.
We talked about it.
It's a life coach is what youwould call yourself, but also a
results coach.
I kind of like that.
(06:40):
I like that a little better,honestly.
But what was your experiencewith leaders growing up?
Because I'm sure there wassomething that led you to work
specifically in this area.
Speaker 2 (06:50):
That's a great question.
I don't know if I've ever hadthat question.
First of all, thank you forhaving me.
It's super great to be herewith you.
Yeah, my experience withleaders growing up, I had a lot
of really good leaders around me.
Yeah, I had my mom and my dadas first right and then, uh, I
had the opportunity to grow upin wonderful communities.
(07:13):
I grew up in anon-denominational church
community and had those you knowthe, the youth group I had.
I had a very good experiencewith the authority figures and
leaders.
In my life I've always soughtout mentors, as since I was
(07:33):
probably 14.
I remember going.
I went to the same summer campevery summer and I sought out,
you know my camp counselor,sought out you know my camp
counselor.
She was a woman older than meand from the time I was 14 on,
I've I've always valued mentors.
So, and then when I got older,I really valued, because a
(07:56):
mentor told me to always have amentor and always have a mentee
at least one.
So I think that is what it'sbeen great advice in my life.
So I always have at least one.
Right now I probably have threesolid, just mentors I check in
with that are women older thanme, more experienced than me,
that I check in with indifferent parts of my life every
(08:18):
week, and I have mentees aswell.
Speaker 1 (08:22):
So we've talked a little bit about having mentors
in some of the past episodes,but you're the first to bring up
also having a mentee, and sotell me more about that, like
what's the value in that for you?
Well, the value is or you don'thave to take it that way,
whatever direction like or whyyou would recommend it.
Speaker 2 (08:42):
Yeah, it's well humility.
For one, I think it really it.
It keeps me grounded and humblebecause I realized it's not
about I don't have perfectadvice.
I mean, I am a life coach, butI'm a life coach because of the
things I've struggled with in mylife and I feel like I am an
(09:05):
expert at serving the person Ionce was.
I'm not an expert at not doingthat right.
I'm not an expert at servingsomeone that is in an area that
I haven't traveled.
So I think having mentees is itreally humbles you and lets you
see, you know the best way to beof service to people is to
(09:29):
share stories and listen andlove and show grace and be
unconditional and to not.
As coaches, we're trained tonot tell, we ask, we don't give
advice, we ask questions and wetap into the client's
resourcefulness and creativity.
So that's what I do with mymentees.
(09:50):
It's really about bringingtheir light, shining their light
, reminding them of thestrengths they might not be
aware of, and it's definitelynot about telling or giving
advice.
So that having mentees in mylife is a great reminder of that
that I don't.
I don't know much.
All I know is how to serve theperson I once was.
Speaker 1 (10:12):
I was just going to ask you to bring that phrase
back up, because I've neverheard it phrased that way.
That is so profound.
So say that one more time,serving the person you once were
Well, I'm, I'm going to givecredit to my good friend, rory
Vaden.
Speaker 2 (10:27):
So he's the co-founder he and his wife of a
group I'm part of called BrandBuilders Group.
So I don't want to take credit,but that's his saying that we
are, and he helps thousands ofentrepreneurs and leaders that
we are most powerfullypositioned to serve the person
we once were.
Speaker 1 (10:48):
So you know what's so funny?
So I have a I'm part of like asmall group, like a women's
Bible study type thing, andthere's women from all walks of
life.
Okay, so there's this girl thatstarted asking me questions and
I kept saying like, oh well, Idon't know everything, but like
here's my answer, and she kindof stopped me in my tracks.
She was like Katie, you havesix years of experience more
(11:10):
than I do, right?
And I think we forget that,like even though we might not be
fully healed or fully to thepoint in business that we want
to be at or whatever, we haveexperience that other people
don't have that we're in, kindof like at the beginning we were
like what am I trying to say?
Do you know what I'm trying tosay?
I, I do Right.
Speaker 2 (11:31):
We, um, we're older than somebody, we've traveled
the road, especially as mothers,right Like I remember reaching
out to when you have the, thephase where they're just
spitting up on you and they'recrying and then they're teething
and you can't figure anythingout and it's just very alarming
If you don't, if you're not in acommunity of other people, that
(11:52):
that's happening to you'regoing to think you're all alone.
So it's very reassuring to knowyou're not alone and also to
talk to those older mothers whoalready went through it mostly,
so they can tell you this isnormal, you're not going to die.
You will make it to the otherend of this, right we, we?
(12:14):
I think life is meant to belived in community and there's
always something to share thatpeople that went ahead of us.
Speaker 1 (12:21):
Yes, your experience matters at every point in the
journey.
I think that's what I'm kind ofgetting at right, like you.
I mean, some people are inchapter 10, some people are
chapter one.
You don't have to wait untilyou're at the end of the book,
kind of thing to start startsharing.
You don't have to be 90.
You could share with you know,whatever you've lived.
So we're going to talk a lotabout that today.
I think that's so good.
(12:42):
So.
So we're going to talk a lotabout that today.
I think that's so good.
So I wasn't sure what to expectwhen I was asking you about
your experience with leaders.
I didn't know if maybe a seriesof bad leaders led you wanted
to continue that trend.
(13:02):
But how about your experiencewith alcohol in your family, in
your community?
Because we're going to betalking about sobriety and
alcohol a little bit today too.
Speaker 2 (13:11):
Yeah, I think that's a really important point.
This is a great time to bringup that point that you don't
have to have had a troubledchildhood or terrible authority
figures in your life to fallinto an addiction, and so you
can look like me.
You can be a mom with greatkids.
You can look great on theoutside.
(13:32):
I mean, I am I talk about thisin my books and I think we're
going to talk about this but I,I grew up a perfectionistic kid.
I, I'm like a high functioning,high achieving person that
looks good from the outside.
I have it all together.
So, by all you know, yeah,looking at me from the outside,
(13:53):
you would believe that Um, andso I think that's really
important that addiction,whether it's alcohol or anything
else, it doesn't care.
It doesn't care where you camefrom, it doesn't care, of course
.
Of course, our environmentplays into all kinds of
addiction and other things inour life.
It just doesn't have to.
(14:13):
So for me, I grew up in a thisis fun.
I grew up in a family ofteetotalers.
They didn't drink.
My parents didn't drink andthey were part of a denomination
that was pretty rigid nodancing, no drinking.
(14:37):
My parents and my relativeswere not, though they were
loving, not rigid, notlegalistic people.
In fact, when I was eight yearsold we left that denomination
and went to a non-denominationalchurch, but I just think
alcohol was never part of theirstory.
Because of that, andsocioeconomically people just
(14:58):
didn't have time or funds for it.
And then so none.
I didn't know anyone whoidentified as an alcoholic in my
whole life, like I did not haveaunts, uncles, cousins, you
know.
If they were, I didn't knowabout it.
My parents didn't drink.
Um, you know, there was a tinybit of that that when I got into
(15:18):
my high school just a verytypical public high school in my
town and people's parents diddrink and then the friends would
drink at parties or whatever.
I think there was a little bitthat was alarming for me, like,
oh my gosh, am I going to hell?
That type of thing.
But I would not say, I wouldnever say that played into my
(15:41):
addiction.
I just think that I got caughtin an addictive snare.
Alcohol is a poison, it's.
I'm not anti-alcohol, but forsome people it's not okay and
for me I'm the type of personthat's not okay it's very
addictive, it's.
It's an addictive substance.
So it alcohol, not other people, not me, not my environment is
(16:07):
the problem.
Wow, I believe.
Speaker 1 (16:10):
I'm really curious.
So my sisters and I we have afather who's an alcoholic and a
drug addict and he's notcurrently in our life just
because life is safer andhealthier that way and I think
I've shared a little bit of thatstory with our listeners safer
and healthier that way, and Ithink I've shared a little bits
of that story with our listeners.
But I remember when we wereapproaching 21, we were scared
to death of alcohol and I thinkwhat we realized is we had kind
(16:33):
of like addictive personalitytraits in other ways whether I
don't I have to study this alittle bit more whether it was
learned like learned behavior orjust in our DNA and so we kind
of introduced I think I drankalcohol last because I was so
scared of its effects on me.
But I remember as a kid I hadother addictive personality
(16:54):
traits, whether it was soda orcandy and I had to have it, or
like there were withdrawals whenI didn't have it.
And I know that sounds so silly, but if you have addictive
personality traits I guessyou'll know exactly what I'm
talking about.
Did you experience that as akid?
Like did you see early signs ofit wasn't alcohol, but it was
(17:17):
something else, definitely.
Speaker 2 (17:19):
Yes, I was addicted to exercise and running.
I had an eating disorder, andthat's definitely.
I think that's true.
I see it over and over again.
If you go into any recoverymeeting, you're going to hear
that story, the one you justtold, over and over again.
(17:39):
Some of us were just born,whether, no matter what our
environmental circumstances aresome of us are predisposed to
just not be able to process orhandle certain things.
You know and and it also thereare I go in the book.
In my book, grace Yourself, Ido start off in like chapter two
(18:01):
saying here are some addictionaccompaniers that I've noticed
over time and just being inrecovery meetings and having so
many friends in recovery for thepast 18 years, there's a lot of
things that I've noticed whereI can kind of see a kid and know
if that kid might have troublewith substances when they're
(18:21):
older, right, because of some ofthese traits.
So that's what your story isvery typical.
It's just part of being human.
Some of us are like that andyou need to be careful with
substances or or screens orwhatever it is.
We just need to take extraprecautions or screens or
whatever it is.
Speaker 1 (18:40):
We just need to take extra precautions.
Yeah, that's so, that's ahealthy, healthy mirror for a
lot of us, right?
And I'm so thankful for ahusband who doesn't have that
tendency at all to be able tosay, like Kate, I see it, I see
it rearing its head with thisagain and yeah, it's, it's good,
it's a good conversation tobring ourselves back to.
Well, we're going to jump tothis, back to this, in a few
(19:02):
minutes.
So the area of your bio that Ilove they've referenced it a few
times already is that you helphigh achieving perfectionists
navigate performance pressure.
Now, here's the deal.
We have a lot of listeners thatare entrepreneurs, slash
creatives.
We have a lot of listeners thatare parents.
We also have just the everydayhost who is trying to embrace
(19:26):
hospitality but is told byculture don't start until it's
perfect, right?
So we have perfectionism in afew different ways here.
Right, I know that theEnneagram is viewed differently
by different people, but it'sbeen a helpful tool for me.
I'm a three, so I'm an achiever, I'm a one or a hundred.
(19:46):
I tend to live that way, and soI'm sure there's a lot of us
that are approachingperfectionism in different ways
here For the people listeningthat are like, wow, I've never
heard anyone that works withpeople like me.
This is me.
Our hands are going up.
What are some of the thingsthat you I mean you could really
take this any direction, chris,because you work with people in
(20:09):
this position a lot what do youwish they knew?
What are helpful tools thatyou're like I wish culture was
saying, I guess tell us what youthink is valuable.
Speaker 2 (20:18):
Yeah, I'll share some tools too.
Um, and, and I and if you know,people don't get this in the
podcast the, the tools are inboth my books.
So I like the books are veryinteractive.
They give a tool and thenthere's places to fill in the
blanks.
Um, so I would say I wouldfirst define to me there's a
(20:38):
difference between perfectionismand a high growth.
Individual, like a high achieverand I think an achiever will be
find a lot of fuel and energytoward their goal.
They will do what it takes toreach that goal.
I'm an achiever where you knowwe're in fast forward a lot of
(21:00):
the time and that's okay.
We, we get a lot of stuff done.
We want to be careful withperfectionism because
perfectionism is different.
It can can invite shame, it caninvite guilt, unwanted guilt.
Some guilt can be helpful, likesome guilt can be leading us,
like, oh, I shouldn't have donethat, let's lead it.
(21:20):
There's also a guilt assessmentin the book.
But what we want to be carefulof is shame.
Like guilt is maybe I need tochange direction.
Shame is I'm a bad person, andthat just doesn't ever have a
place in anybody's lives.
So, in short, an achiever willdo what it takes to reach the
(21:40):
goal.
A perfectionist will, if theydon't reach the goal or if it's
not going the way they think itshould, it's trash.
They'll, literally.
I have one kid that is aperfectionist and and a highly,
highly creative artist, and as avery, very young child he would
(22:01):
draw, and if it wasn't perfectit was crumpled up and thrown in
the trash.
That's perfectionism.
And so if we carry that intoadulthood he's did not carry
that into adulthood, but if wedo, we run into all kinds of
snares and when we can't handlethe pressure, that can lead to
addiction.
Right, because we ha, we arehuman and we have to find a
(22:23):
coping mechanism.
And so when we find a soother,it becomes a ritualistic soother
, and if that's a harmful thing,like a harmful substance, that
ritualistic soother will turninto an addiction, a harmful
addiction that ritualisticsoother will turn into an
addiction, a harmful addiction.
Speaker 1 (22:42):
I love powerful, helpful phrases, and that is a
new one to me a ritualisticsoother, that's so I mean that's
.
You're describing addictionwith that.
Speaker 2 (22:55):
I mean in my view.
Yes, that's how I describe itin my book.
You know it's a wide topic.
Everybody's going to come withtheir research and all their
things.
Like I said, I don't know if wewere recording when I said to
you at the beginning, so I'llsay it for the listeners but I'm
not an addiction expert and I'mnot a sobriety coach.
(23:18):
I'm a life coach and I have alot of great coaching tools.
But I am an expert at servingthe person.
I once was.
So I'm an expert at sharing myown story, and I was addicted to
alcohol and now I'm not, and soI share that in the latest book
.
So mine is not based on a tonof research.
(23:38):
It's based on, you know, mystory in the book is based on my
story, what I've learned inbeing in recovery over the last
18 years and from hearingthousands of other people's
stories.
Yeah, Wow.
Speaker 1 (23:53):
Well, I have a few thoughts here.
But when my husband and I firstgot married, I was starting
kind of like a.
It's a very long story.
I'm happy to answer anyquestions anyone has, but here's
just like a little snippet ofit.
So I was starting this likeat-home bakery and I was baking
cakes.
I was a new baker, had neverbeen formally taught and I had
this view that I had to achievethis Pinterest picture the first
(24:17):
time.
I baked Right, and I always.
So I've come a long way.
I've had.
I have hundreds of cakes in mytoolbox now.
So, when people see me nowthey're like oh my gosh, these
cakes are incredible.
And I'm like you have no ideawhat would happen was all of
these cakes, as I was learning,didn't come up perfect, straight
in the trash, chris.
So, just like your son, thatwas the artist.
(24:38):
I couldn't even look at it, Icouldn't have evidence of it, I
didn't want to take pictures.
I have very few pictures of thefailed cakes, so I didn't want
any evidence that they existed.
And my poor husband would sayKate, there's, it's still flour,
sugar and butter.
Like I still want to eat it.
Can you at least put it in thefreezer?
And I'm like no, as no placehere.
(24:58):
So I get it, I do get it, and Ithink that that breakdown of
achievers and perfectionistshelps me, helps me to identify,
I guess myself, the differentphases.
I think it will help a lot ofus actually.
Speaker 2 (25:13):
Yeah, yeah, Well.
And then you asked about tools.
I kind of skipped over thatpart, but you brought up such a
good, that's such a greatexample.
Like if I were coaching thatold version of you that was
throwing away the cakes, itprobably would have been
delicious.
The exercise I use is so simple.
(25:34):
It's just so.
We create standards that are toohigh as perfectionists, Right,
and that's where we get pressure.
So what I have clients do islook at the rules they make and
sometimes these are subconscious.
We don't know they're happening.
The rules we create that weneed to put in place to make
(25:56):
that standard happen or thatRight.
So, like in your case, I wouldhave how this you know, as an
example.
I would say um, so your, yourstandard was a certain cake
right now.
That's not your husband'sstandard, that's not my standard
and that was your standard.
(26:16):
So if you were my client backthen, I would have said tell me,
you know, how will you knowwhen you've baked that cake?
So we're going to get realspecific about what that perfect
cake looks like.
And then we're going to gothrough and I'm really big into
having everything written withpencil and paper because it gets
it into our physiology and andbrain while we're writing.
(26:40):
But I would have had you writedown the rules you had for
creating that perfect cake, whathas to happen for this cake to
be perfect, and you might'vetold me I mean what.
What would you have said, Like,what were name one or two rules
?
You would have had.
Speaker 1 (26:57):
This sounds so silly to non-bakers.
No air bubbles in the frosting.
Speaker 2 (27:00):
Okay.
So that's a great example.
So then I'd have you write downno air bubbles in the frosting
and then I would Um no, no, it'snot Okay.
So, since it's not, we're goingto toss that and we're going to
(27:28):
.
Then we're going to go througha series of exercises to help
you like a muscle at the gym.
We have to form a new narrativeto get rid of that.
But basically you're only goingto keep the things that are
within your control, because youset rules for your goal that
are outside of your control,like a big one that people said
(27:48):
especially, I bet, inhospitality is.
You know they want to have aparty, but maybe one of the
rules for a successful party iseverybody has to have fun.
Well, you have no control overthat.
We don't control other people,so we have to ditch that one too
.
So we need to keep our rulesonly within what's in our
(28:09):
control and keep them realistic,and you know that we go through
all of that.
So that's my greatest tool forhelping people navigate
performance pressure.
A lot of this stuff just hasgot to be ditched.
And then I have a great exercisethat is in both books.
It's just how to when you justhow to know cause.
(28:31):
I think feelings are actionsignals.
So when you feel a way youdon't want to feel like maybe
it's pressure, or maybe you feellike a failure, or you feel
like you're about toself-sabotage, you feel like
your cake's a failure, that's athat's not wrong, it's just an
action signal.
So then we're going to find out, we're going to unpack that and
(28:51):
find out where that, what,where'd that come from?
It came from a narrative goingthrough your head, and then
we're going to fact check it.
Is that true?
No, is it within my control?
No.
Speaker 1 (29:01):
And so then we're going to flip it and reframe it
to something better it is sohelpful to hear that there are
like rules, like subconsciousrules that we set, the only, as
you were saying that I wentthrough a season of counseling
when we were in Thailand.
It was mandated counseling andI'm so thankful it was the best
thing that ever happened in mylife.
It's kind of like tail endhealing from eating disorder
(29:24):
phase, and she heard me saysomething about like a shirt
that I was wearing or something,and she mirrored back to me
that I had dress code rules formyself that I didn't even know I
had, Right, and so I was likeman and just hearing them, she
fished them out of my mouth.
So it was man, she was good,but I, when you said that, I'm
(29:48):
like, oh my gosh, there arerules that I have in my own life
that I didn't even realize thatI set.
And listeners I mean it'sprobably the first time
listeners are hearing that thereare hospitality rules and
relationship rules and foodrules, right, I mean food rules
is a huge one, probably withhostesses, Like.
I hear people say like, well, Ican't serve frozen food and I'm
(30:10):
like, well, why not?
But it's kind of like a rulethat we've bought into.
Oof man, Chris, this is good,kind of like a rule that we've
bought into Oof man.
Chris, this is good and theseare tell me what book this is?
Speaker 2 (30:25):
This lab.
The rules are in.
Standards are in my latest book.
This is the advanced.
Yeah, it's the new one comingout February 18th, but you can
pre-order it now.
Grace yourself how to show upfor theber Life you Want.
Speaker 1 (30:41):
Okay, I was hoping it was this one and not your first
one, because we got to plugthis one.
Speaker 2 (30:44):
It's not all about.
I mean, it's about it explainsthese types of things, and the
way I do that is sharing mystory with sobriety.
So in that sense, it's a bookon sobriety, but it's also a
book on so much more.
Speaker 1 (31:01):
Man so good.
I've heard people over theyears say like even if you don't
struggle with alcohol, likeeveryone could benefit from
things like AA, the 12 steps arewonderful.
Yes, is that I mean?
I know we're not talking aboutthat today, but I feel like
there are there's like levels offreedom that people don't tap
into until it's things arealmost out of control.
(31:24):
But it's like, man, there's somuch Right we could benefit from
.
Speaker 2 (31:28):
Yeah, there are hundreds of us, millions
probably in recovery that justfeel so grateful.
You know that we are therebecause we get to work on all
these things.
Speaker 1 (31:40):
So good man, so good.
Well, let's keep going withthis.
So, um, you actually justanswered a question I had about
hospitality, but yourrelationship with alcohol, I
think, is one that is morecommon than many of us realize.
Um, partially because a lot ofpeople walking through it are
(32:00):
silent about the journey.
I think that culture says it'sshameful, there's no place for
it to talk about when you feellike you're struggling with it.
It's also, I don't know, it'san uncomfortable topic to have
with family and friends.
We live in an alcohol-saturatedculture right now.
Family and friends, we live inan alcohol saturated culture
(32:22):
right now.
But tell us, I guess, what ledyou to lead this conversation
and to kind of grab a hold ofyour own freedom.
Speaker 2 (32:29):
Yeah, I well, I was sober.
I got sober when the kids werelittle, and this was in 2007.
And back then there was wedidn't have mocktails and people
going alcohol free for healthchoices.
It was really, and, like Iexplained, I didn't grow up
(32:51):
around, um, people that haddrinking problems, um, drinking
problems Um, and so that I knewof, and so it was really, um,
you're either an alcoholic oryou're not.
You're a normal drinker oryou're.
This was, you know, in 2007.
So I went to.
(33:12):
I knew in my gut I could notdrink alcohol.
That it was, even though ithadn't really manifested to
everybody else yet, because Istill had people telling me oh
honey, you don't have a problemwith that.
I really did them, but myhusband and I were the only ones
that kind of noticed it,because I was a housewife at
home with small babies and justhaving too much to drink while I
(33:36):
was cooking, and it was quiet.
It was quietly just killing mysoul and about to kill me
physically, and so I reallydidn't know where to go.
So I went to a sober communitythat I looked up online one
night and I was scared to death.
It was an all women's group andI went the next day and it
(33:59):
changed my life because a womanin the group said you know,
again I'd never met other peoplewith the same problem as I was
experiencing the same struggle,and this woman said she knew I
was brand new.
She said it's not your fault,it's like an allergy.
You have a condition, there's asolution, stay here, we're
(34:19):
going to help you.
And that is why belief is sucha big part of my writing.
I have an exercise in bothbooks about belief, because my
belief about myself up to thatpoint when that woman said that
was the fact, was I'm addictedto alcohol.
I had this story attached tothat fact that I'm a monster
(34:42):
because I can't stop.
And it was a really ridiculousnarrative because I was
successful in all other areas ofmy life except this one.
I'm a very disciplined person,I have a lot of willpower, but
with this I couldn't get itunder control because it's a
highly addictive substance.
I didn't know all that then.
(35:02):
I thought I was the problem.
So when she said that, mybelief switched from you know,
the fact was still the same I'maddicted, but the belief
switched from I'm a monster toI'm just an addicted woman
deserving of community andrecovery.
I'm just an addicted womandeserving of community and
recovery, and so I was able tostay sober.
I stayed in that community andI was sober just short of 14
(35:35):
years.
And then, in 2020, we moved, andthis whole story is in my book,
so I'll just give you thenutshell.
But we moved to my book.
So I'll just give you thenutshell.
But we moved to.
I'd never left California.
We moved out of state.
Um, I was a brand new emptynester.
I don't think I processed that.
I just kind of said this newadventure, let's, you know, take
up golf and let's do thesethings.
I didn't really.
Bottom line is I decided Ididn't think I was an alcoholic.
(35:58):
I didn't think I was.
I forgot the reasons I stoppeddrinking in the first place and
I decided to invite it back intomy life.
I had this false belief that Idon't think I ever had a problem
.
I think the reason I couldn'tdrink was all these other things
in my life, all these otherpressures, and the second I
(36:20):
invited it back.
I knew, without a doubt nope,it was the alcohol.
I can't process it and you know, I have changed, I have evolved
, but alcohol has not, and sowhen that happens.
It is because addiction is sucha beast.
It was so difficult for me toget sober a second time.
It was like there's a saying wehave in recovery that it's
(36:43):
easier to stay sober than to getsober, and that's very true.
So it was.
It was a battle trying to getmy sobriety back.
So I wrote this book to kind ofjust document what that was
like and what I learned.
And I wouldn't have learned the.
I mean I'm glad it worked outand I'm here and I'm sober again
(37:05):
, but I could have died.
You know I'm I'm just happy I'mback.
But I wrote it all down so thatit wouldn't be wasted and
hopefully somebody else doesn'thave to do the same field trip I
went on, doesn't have to do thesame field trip I went on.
Speaker 1 (37:18):
Well, you talk about how community was a lifeline.
I think you use the term inEpiPen, right?
Is that what you refer to themas?
Speaker 2 (37:44):
I did in the book.
I've never said that, otherthan what I read nut allergies
and um.
You know as young children thatI carried an EpiPen and so it's
in.
An EpiPen buys you time untilyou get it doesn't save your
life.
It buys you 20 minutes of timeuntil you get to the ER, the
ambulance comes.
So I just thought that was agood analogy that it addiction
can be like an allergy and acommunity can be like an EpiPen,
where it's it's not going tosave your life.
(38:05):
There's a lot of other thingsthat are at play, but it it is,
it will.
It will save your life one dayat a time.
Right, it's, it is one of thekey.
I just don't think people canget sober with or be.
I don't think people can likeme can be sober without
(38:28):
community.
I think there are a lot ofpeople not like me who are sober
for health reasons and they'realcohol free for wellness, and
that's so wonderful.
I'm so happy the world is goingthat direction.
I don't I'm not suggesting theyall need a community, but if
someone struggled with addiction, I think community is key.
Speaker 1 (38:52):
Yeah, so I want to expand on this just a little bit
.
So we have listeners that maybeare kind of like in a similar
situation as you like a similarlifestyle and recovery.
We also have people that arelike man.
I don't struggle with alcohol,but I have people in my life
that do.
How would you say that we canbest be community to support
(39:15):
people in our life that aresober?
Speaker 2 (39:25):
sober, curious Like how can we be that EpiPen to
them?
That's a really good, that's avery compassionate question.
Yeah, my good friends will askme that no, I don't drink.
Do you care if I drink?
Is it okay if we serve drink?
Those are polite questions.
If you're a host, I thinkthat's a really polite,
hospitable question.
My answer is always I don'tcare at all, it doesn't bother
(39:46):
me at all.
I my sobriety.
I'm not tempted at all by otherpeople drinking, and a lot of
people are like me Because if II were, I couldn't.
I mean, if I didn't have myrecovery figured out and being
taken care of in in a sobercommunity, I wouldn't be able to
(40:10):
go out in the world becauseit's everywhere.
So I think that's a politequestion, though, and I'll just
let people know I don't care atall.
I do have things.
Like my husband knows, I don'tserve alcohol.
That's just my thing.
I'm not making this suggestionfor other people, but I just
know things that I've I've putin place that.
I just are my little um, tipsand and routine.
(40:32):
I don't buy alcohol at thegrocery store, I don't serve it
and no one notices those things.
Right, If we're hosting, myhusband buys the alcohol, he
serves the alcohol, he opens thewine, so, and nobody else ever
notices those things.
Speaker 1 (40:48):
So I think it's important to notice too that
there is kind of like a range,right, like I've only had
friends over the years that arelike I can't smell it, cause
like the smell depending on whatstage you're at, right, and so
I think it is good to ask thosequestions, like you're saying,
because, um and and to be aware,as a host, that the answers
might vary based on where youare on the recovery journey,
(41:11):
right.
Speaker 2 (41:12):
That's very smart.
Be aware that they'll, they andand don't cause anybody else to
stumble right.
It's like, yeah, my husband,yeah, if we're going to be
kissing or whatever he won'thave alcohol right, he's very
(41:34):
polite about it.
Speaker 1 (41:35):
Yeah, that's good, just aware, compassionate.
Yeah, I mean it's a hard thingbecause, you know, I do love a
glass of wine at a holiday party, but I'm very aware, like my
and I'm also Italian and I cookwith a lot of wine.
I cook with white wines, I cookwith Marsala, all those things.
And we have a new member of ourfamily that has been sober for
a long time and I was like, oh,wow, I, I just like.
(41:58):
I recently was just reminded,like, oh, I should ask if he's
okay that I cook with wine.
And I've had different answersto that question over the years.
Like for him he's kind of saida similar thing to you, like
that that doesn't affect me,like that's fine when it's in
the chicken.
But I have had people, um,friends, say, oh, thank you for
asking, like, can you usesomething else?
Speaker 2 (42:18):
So yeah, I.
I would say to hosts anyonehosting a party, go ahead and
ask.
We appreciate it.
Speaker 1 (42:24):
Yeah, Because I don't like.
Speaker 2 (42:25):
I don't have desserts that aren't that the alcohol is
not cooked off.
That's great.
It's like a liqueur, achocolate with liqueur I stay
away from.
But I don't mind if it's in alot of sauces and it cooks off.
So same thing with a lot ofpeople are okay drinking in a
beers or in a things, I'm okayhaving mocktails, but some
(42:46):
people in sobriety, that's a bigno-no because they feel like it
triggers their, their brainsomehow.
So it's, it is different foreverybody, which is good for
hosts to know.
Speaker 1 (42:58):
How about celebrating and I'm probably going to get
the terminology wrong, so pleasecorrect me, but like the,
you're like sober, it's notbirthday.
Speaker 2 (43:09):
Yeah, sometimes I call them sober versaries or you
call them birthdays though Isthat?
Speaker 1 (43:16):
is that something that's meaningful to you?
And maybe this varies.
Speaker 2 (43:18):
It's very meaningful, and I do write about this too.
I it's.
It's again.
No, it's different for everyperson.
So you guys just have to knowwhat it is for you.
For me, I love, I thinkcelebration is very important
and I do celebrate milestones.
I get really excited about it,um.
But when I was trying to getthat second sobriety back, I
(43:39):
made a point to not count daysbecause it was tripping me up.
That perfectionism kicked in.
But see, not everybody has thatold perfectionistic tendency
that I struggled with as a youngkid, so they might not have
that problem.
So you have to know yourself.
I would say if it's moving youforward, do it, and if it's not,
dump it.
(43:59):
There's no formula, there's noright or wrong there.
Yeah, whatever works.
Speaker 1 (44:05):
It's a good thing, just as community, to maybe
bring up to a friend or a familymember, maybe mark the day if
you think of them saying it, andfollow up a year later and
write a card, send a text, Idon't know, like there's so many
ways to be intentional.
I guess my last question is howabout accountability?
And I know that some people doaccountability very well.
(44:29):
Other people are still learning.
But I mean, what role huh Doyou like when people I don't
know like what doesaccountability look like in
community?
Speaker 2 (44:37):
Well, I have a sober mentor and she's my
accountability and she's one ofmy mentors that's older and I
don't want yeah, unless I'veasked for it, I don't want it.
I don't want somebody checkingin with me.
My husband doesn't check inwith me because the truth is
(44:58):
we're adults, we're going to dowhat we want, Right and so but.
But I think it is important toask somebody and to be
intentional about having anaccountability partner.
Awesome, but everybody elsedoes not.
Speaker 1 (45:14):
I'm so glad we talked about that, though, because so
so many of these things it'sjust important to be intentional
with and understand the rolesof community and how to ask.
It's good, it's really good.
Thank you for being sovulnerable with all of that.
Well, last but not least, we'regoing to talk about shame just
for a bit, and we're going toend on the topic of hope.
(45:34):
So, if anyone's like man, we'regetting deep.
We're going to end with hope.
So this I'm going to quote youdirectly.
So I think it's from your book,I think it's a quote that's
pulled from there.
So shame is a liar.
Regardless of how high or lowyou set your standards and
whether or not you reach them,you are worthy and loved and
(45:56):
whole.
You are a priceless treasure,whether you are addicted or
sober, guilty or innocent, sickor healthy, stalled or growing.
Oh my gosh, I'm going to getchoked up.
Seeking or knowing there isnothing you could do or think to
negate your worth, and shameholds no power, right or
authority in your life.
I feel like so many of us findourselves under a heavy blanket
(46:21):
of shame, whether it's in thecontext of sobriety, whether
it's another form of shame, andwe don't even know that we are,
or what shame is.
I remember again the first timemy mentor told me Katie, I
think you're struggling withshame, and this started like a
process for me.
So I guess to start a processthat was liberating, I will add.
(46:43):
I guess my first question ishow does someone know if they're
wrestling with shame?
Speaker 2 (46:52):
The best way to know is to use your feelings as
indicators.
So if you're feeling a way youdon't want to feel disempowered,
sad, depressed, not good enough, unworthy, those are just some
feelings.
There's zillions of them.
That's when you're going to,like I had mentioned the four
(47:13):
F's Just use that feeling as anaction signal.
It's not wrong.
None of our feelings are wrong.
We do want to bring.
Some of them are so deep downand subconscious that we want to
start listening to these thingsrattling through the
subconscious.
So feelings are a great way todo that.
You feel a way you don't wantto feel great.
Stop celebrate your awareness,then immediately ask find it.
(47:36):
That's the second Like.
I do feel it, find it, factcheck it, frame it.
So find it.
It's probably, if you thinkabout what just went through
your head and it might besubconscious, it's probably a
lousy thought or lousy questionthat's not serving you.
So then you'll fact check that,right.
And so you'll say so.
(47:58):
Then you'll fact check that,right.
And so you'll say is that true,right?
So say the.
The feeling of like shame is afeeling, and maybe the thing
rattling through our head is whydo I always do this?
Why can't I get it right.
Why is this happening to me?
Those types of things neverserve us, but we might not know
that they're rattling throughour head until we find them
(48:20):
right.
So those I call lousy questions, and when your brain asks a
question like that, it can'tanswer it in a positive way.
It will answer it with a lousyanswer.
So instead of answering thelousy question, we're going to
reframe it to something thatserves us, and a lot of my work
(48:42):
with clients is coming up withmantras or affirmations or a new
narrative even before we fullybelieve it.
So we're going to say it.
You know I am.
You said something at the ohshould have written it down, but
(49:02):
you said a really good one inthe beginning.
Yeah, it's, I am.
You know.
Let's just say I am intentional, I am worthy, I am.
Just start pouring out all thepositive things and you might.
It's okay.
It took a long time to writethat old, lousy story.
So it will.
It's like a muscle at the gym.
It'll take time to conditionthe new story and we just have
(49:27):
to keep saying it or writingwhatever works for you.
Put it on your wallpaper, youknow, your screensaver, or your
sticky notes or um, wherever, sothat you are remembering these
new narratives every day andthen conditioning them.
Speaker 1 (49:46):
So good.
I think that's such a good umHmm, I always use the word.
I always say this is such agood invitation, but it really
is.
It's a good invitation to beable to deal with shame.
I think you know, I tell Ispeak to hosts a lot and in the
context of hospitality, and I'llsay a lot of us could be the
(50:07):
next Martha Stewart.
A lot of us are very skilled atfood and design and all of
these things, and we're like man.
What is this missing key toconnection, to relationship?
And for a lot of us, it's thethis heart work.
And for me, for a lot of years,it was.
I was living under thiscrushing blanket of shame and as
you start to deal with that andfind freedom, um, there is so
(50:30):
much that opens up in life andin relationships and, um, it's,
it's worth the work.
Speaker 2 (50:37):
It's worth it.
Yeah, and I think so.
The book is called GraceYourself, and I think it's
important because people have adifferent, a lot of people have
a different definition of grace,and so I just don't think.
I think grace has a lot to dowith shame, because I don't
think they coexist.
And so one thing you did say atthe beginning, that is in your
(51:01):
intro, that I love you saidaccept an invitation and extend
one.
And to me that's I'm a personof faith, so to me grace is
about God's grace and it'sunmerited favor.
And it's like that definitionof shame you read is from my new
book, and that's what I mean.
It's this unmerited favor that,no matter what you're worthy,
(51:29):
just because you were born, youknow we're going to have a more
fun life and a more productivelife and a more joy-filled life
and a more abundant life if weembrace these positive
narratives.
But whether or not we do thatdoesn't change our worth.
Like I could still be in anactive addiction and I might
feel shameful about that, I'lldefinitely feel really bad, but
(51:55):
the truth is, I believe thatwouldn't change my worth, Wow.
And so I think that, like yousay, accept an invitation.
We have been given an invitationof grace and all we have to do
is accept it, but, as a personwho used to be a perfectionist
(52:17):
and who used it, got caught upin these ritualistic suitors and
addiction.
Control is a big part of that,because we're controlling.
We're wanting to control allour outcomes, we're wanting to
control the way we feel, ourstate right, and it is very
difficult.
As a young person, it was verydifficult for me to accept grace
(52:39):
, because I thought I needed tocontrol my own worth.
So I was like you can't tell mewhat I deserve and what I don't
.
I don't deserve this.
I want to feel shameful.
Well, that's not acceptinggrace, because grace is free and
we get it no matter what.
We do have to accept it, though, and then, like you said, we
(53:03):
have to extend it.
Speaker 1 (53:06):
So so powerful.
I feel like we can keep talkingabout this.
I really could.
I could dive deep, because thisis like I love depth, and I
think so many of us crave it anddon't know how to put words to
it.
And you put words to it so well.
But I was raised in the church anon-denominational church my
whole life.
So since I was four and movedto Thailand, lived on the
(53:30):
missions field for a while,serving in a multicultural like,
a lot of different religions, alot of different nationalities,
and I was babysitting thislittle girl.
She had to be four or five atthe time and her parents were
away.
It was the first time I watcheda little kid this length of
time and I think it was like1030 in the morning.
(53:52):
We were on a bike ride, drivingpast this kind of like a
convenience store, like a7-Eleven, and she said Katie,
can I have?
She was a little bit choked up,missing her parents, and she
said Katie, can I have an icecream?
And I said, oh, I'm sorry,sweetheart, we can't, we have to
have lunch first.
And she said she looked mestraight in the eyes, she like
spoke to my soul and she said.
She said, katie, can you justhave some grace with me.
(54:15):
And it was the first time I'veheard grace talked about in that
way and in a second Iunderstood it.
I was like, oh my gosh, ofcourse.
And then I was like how comethis four-year-old understands
grace more than I do?
Isn't that funny?
And obviously we're talkingabout it in a much deeper light
(54:37):
as adults.
But I was like that simpletruth of like I know it's not an
example of God's gracenecessarily, but I was like
sometimes we just need people toextend it.
I don't know, show us.
Yeah, I love that.
Speaker 2 (54:51):
I really love that because, yeah, if you have to
have your lunch first, you'reearning it right, you're earning
the dessert, and yeah, I know.
Speaker 1 (55:05):
It's not necessarily an exact mirror, but it made me,
it invited me to wrestle withgrace for the first time, and I
think that's really what it didfor me, with grace for the first
time, and I think that's reallywhat it did for me.
And and I was like alsoparenting note to teach my kids
(55:26):
grace from a young age, causethose parents, man, they were
onto something and that sweetlittle girl got an ice cream
cone that day before lunch.
Okay, well, we are.
I guess I'll wrap this up, like, if anyone is like, wait, don't
wrap up yet, we still got tokeep talking.
There's so much to dig intohere.
Go buy Chris's book.
Um, if you're watching this onYouTube I think I'm posting the
(55:46):
video.
Um, grace yourself.
Uh, you can pre-order the book.
Uh, if you're listening beforeFebruary, if you're listening
after, you can go ahead andorder it.
Um, or, my goodness, people canwork with you too, right, they
can.
Speaker 2 (55:59):
Yeah, and, and a lot of this is in my um first book,
living all in has great exercise.
That's available now on Amazon.
Grace yourself will beavailable where books are sold.
People can work with me on mywebsite.
It's chrisjansencoachingcom,and so you can contact me there.
You can read about my coachingand and all of that good stuff.
Speaker 1 (56:20):
So good, so so good.
Well, let's wrap up with thesame questions we ask all of our
guests.
Um the sun?
If you're watching this video,the sun is like doing weird
things with my screen.
It's like a spotlight.
But let's wrap up with the samethree questions we ask each of
our guests.
So the first one is somethingyou have eaten recently and
(56:42):
loved.
Speaker 2 (56:44):
I well it's fall.
I've been really into thisvegan tomato basil soup, and I'm
not vegan, but I don't love thetaste of heavy cream, and so if
somebody makes a tomato basilsoup without heavy cream, it's
just.
I just love it.
I love basil.
I just had some last night atum of all places.
(57:05):
We went to Disneyland yesterday, my husband and I, yeah and um.
There was this good restaurantin California adventure park
that served this vegan tomatobasil soup.
It was so good.
Speaker 1 (57:19):
I've heard him.
I live so far from both of theDisney's that we don't have
there a lot but, I've heard suchgood things about the food
scene.
Oh yeah, it's like wonderfulgood food.
Yeah, and I'm, I'm gluten free,dairy free.
Speaker 2 (57:31):
So, but when you could eat at Disneyland, for
sure, oh my gosh, I gotta go, Igotta go.
Speaker 1 (57:37):
That sounds amazing.
I have to say this puts alittle damper on it.
When I was pregnant so I'mItalian, huge like red sauce
tomato family you know, I couldnot.
The one thing I couldn't havewas red sauce or anything tomato
based, and so I haven'tventured back, actually since
Wesley's been born.
But I could have some tomatosoup today.
(57:57):
I could stomach it.
So I'm actually going to switchback to our old second question
, and it's something that youhave found to be beautiful
lately.
Speaker 2 (58:10):
Oh, I mean, how long do you have?
I mean, how long do you have I?
Just I got to have.
So I have three grown kids, andI say I have five kids because
two of them are married, and soI got to have all five at my
(58:30):
Thanksgiving table last week andit was so beautiful.
I I feel like every year getsbetter because our relationships
get deeper.
And, um, you know, I talkedabout when we went around the
table for what we're thankfulfor, I, the two that have their,
their partners.
(58:51):
I just said I'm so gratefulthat the whole family embraced
my child right, that the whole,not just that they found their
significant other, but thatthey're loved by that person's
parents and family.
That's always been reallyimportant to me for who my kids
end up with, and that was that'sjust been a huge source of
(59:15):
beauty right now andthankfulness in my life.
Speaker 1 (59:19):
Wow, that's a really great answer.
And, last but not least,something you have discovered
recently that you think everyoneshould know about an Amazon
purchase, a Netflix show, a food, anything.
Speaker 2 (59:33):
So I love these I don't know how to pronounce it
Ufos recovery sandals.
I think it's O-O-F-O-S orO-F-O-O-S but it's Ufos and
their recovery sandals.
I wear mine inside the houseand they're a little bit like.
I think they're a little priceybut it will save on doctor
(59:56):
bills because your back is goingto feel great and brings me
great joy.
I just love putting them on andI just feel like I stand up
straight.
Speaker 1 (01:00:07):
I'll tag them in the show notes.
I'm kind of in that stage whereI'd rather have fewer higher
quality things than a closetfull of like fast fashion.
You know what I mean?
I no, I'm with you.
I'd rather a good pair ofsandals that are going to last
me five-ish years, you know then, yeah, that sounds great.
Well, thank you so much fortaking this time, for being so
(01:00:29):
vulnerable.
I've kind of learned throughthis conversation how much I
have to learn about sobriety,really.
I mean, it's so important forus to stay teachable, to have
conversations, to ask questions,and thank you for sharing parts
of your story and inviting usinto all of that.
I appreciate it.
Oh, thanks, katie, I loved yourquestions.
Thank you, oh sweet.
(01:00:50):
Well, I'm so glad we're newfriends and I'm sure this is not
the last we're going to see you.
So, um, thank you guys.
So much for tuning in.
Um, be sure to follow Chris onall of her social pages and, uh,
purchase the book and we willsee you next week.
Speaker 2 (01:01:07):
Oops, I love that picture of you.
Is that your husband?
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