February 5, 2025 • 54 mins
I don't know about you but in the course of my adult life, I have had some very defining moments that required me to question- "Should I stay, or is it time to walk away?"
Join us for an enriching conversation with Emily P Freeman, the insightful author of "The Next Right Thing" and her latest book, "How to Walk into a Room." Emily offers a treasure trove of wisdom on gracefully navigating these very transitions, tackling the pervasive issue of decision fatigue with her thoughtful guidance. Her perspective is a breath of fresh air for anyone feeling the weight of change, encouraging us to embrace who we become in the process of making life’s pivotal choices.
We explore Emily’s unique approach to discernment and transition, rooted in her love for storytelling and journaling. Her latest work challenges the traditional January-bound resolutions, urging us to extend our self-reflection throughout the year. Emily's ideas on goal setting are not just about achieving more, but about finding clarity and ease as we move forward in our personal and professional lives. She illuminates the shifting sands of generational attitudes towards careers, loyalty, and entrepreneurship, providing valuable insights into how these cultural shifts influence our identity and choices.
Our conversation wouldn't be complete without discussing the importance of emotional safe havens during times of change. Emily shares how recognizing those who genuinely hold space for us can make all the difference. We also touch on the empowerment drawn from connecting with our ancestry and the broader narratives of which we are a part. Tune in for a wealth of practical tools and inspiration to help navigate your own transitions, whether you're stepping into a new role or reimagining your path.
Follow Emily @EmilyPFreeman
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
There are a few names of people that have commonly
come up in friend groups thatI've been in all around the
world, and while Michael Bubleis one of them, Emily P Freeman
has always been another one.
She is very commonly known forher book the Next Right Thing,
and you'll hear me say that alot refer to her work in that
book.
A lot and friends have oftenencouraged me with the same.
(00:23):
Well, it was a joy more than ajoy, it was profound and an
honor to host her on the showtoday, and we are talking about
her latest book, how to Walkinto a Room.
Guys, this conversation ispoignant.
If you listened to my episodewith Liz Walsh a few weeks ago,
you will remember that I learnedhow to use that word, Very
(00:45):
proud to use it again.
It is perfect timing for thosewho are really in every walk of
life.
I have said since having thisconversation with Emily and
since reading the book, that I'mgoing to gift this to friends
in every season of transitionthat you could possibly imagine,
because it's such agrace-filled approach, such an
(01:09):
insightful approach.
You could tell that Emily knowsthe heart of the person in
transition and speaks exactly tothem.
Well, enough gushing If you donot know who Emily is, Emily P
Freeman is the New York Timesbestselling author of six books.
The Next Right Thing, A Simple,Soulful Practice for Making Life
Decisions, how to Walk into aRoom, the Art of Knowing when to
(01:32):
Stay and when to Walk Away arejust the names of two of the
ones that she's getting a lot ofattention for right now.
With a master's degree inspiritual formation and
leadership from FriendsUniversity, her most important
work is to help create soulspace and offer spiritual
direction and discernment foranyone struggling with decision
fatigue.
Her nationally ranked podcast,the Next Right Thing, has more
(01:57):
than 27 million downloads, andshe regularly offers perspective
and clarity through her weeklynewsletter, the Soul Minimalist.
Emily is a glad partner to herhusband, John, and together they
have three children, two incollege and one in high school.
Guys, you are going to be justawestruck and encouraged and
left with so much food forthought after this conversation.
(02:21):
I am so grateful that I get tobring it to you Well after this
conversation.
I am so grateful that I get tobring it to you.
Well.
Whenever February comes along,my mind automatically shifts to
spring.
So as far as I'm concerned, weare on a speed train to spring,
and I am very happy about it.
But if I stop and let realitysoak in, I know that we have a
few cozy, cold weeks left, andso I might as well embrace it.
(02:42):
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Hi, I'm Katie, a hospitalityeducator and the host of Making
Room by Gather podcast.
I am set to see our communitiesget back to the table through
hospitality, but it wasn'talways this way.
My husband and I moved toThailand and through it I
experienced some loneliness, andwith it I was given a choice to
(04:14):
sit back and accept it or to dosomething about it.
And for me that meant twothings that I needed the healing
to learn how to accept aninvitation and the confidence to
know how to extend one.
Through this process, Ideveloped some of the richest
and deepest relationships of mylife.
Through Making Room by Gather,you will hear conversations from
(04:35):
myself and experts in the areasof food, design and
relationships.
You see there are countlessthings trying to keep us from
the table.
But can I tell you something?
Take a seat because you areready, you are capable, you are
a good host.
Oh my goodness.
I have been so ready for thisconversation.
(04:57):
For a while.
You've been so gracious with us.
I'm so excited to be here.
We are celebrating a launch ofyour latest book.
How to Walk into a Room andremind me when was the launch of
this book, the official launch?
So?
Speaker 2 (05:12):
this book, released in March of 2024.
So we're not quite a year yet.
Speaker 1 (05:18):
Okay, okay.
Well, we are very excited foryou.
I feel like the conversationbehind it is one that all of us
can will be encouraged by in onedirection or another, so I want
to dive into it.
So I have been in communitiesthat have deeply been inspired
by your work for years, and youoffer such a level of I'll call
(05:41):
it understanding of the humanheart through your writing.
That's so approachable and it'srefreshing to receive, and I
think if anyone reads your work,they'll know what I'm talking
about.
And one thing I know is peoplethat carry this kind of
understanding of people andrelationship often have gone
through a lot to get to thatplace, and so I want to hear
(06:05):
more of your story.
What do you want people to knowabout becoming the Emily
Freeman that we know today?
Speaker 2 (06:13):
Well, it's a good question and it's so funny.
I've heard that Maybe you'veheard that saying before that
says we can't read our own label, and so it's really hard
sometimes to know what are themoments in time, what's the
narrative arc of my own life,that have sort of shaped me into
becoming the person who I amand am continuing to become.
But I do know that I'm someonewho pays attention to what keeps
(06:37):
my attention, and so for meover the years that's been the
interplay of faith andcreativity.
I'm endlessly fascinated byknowing what keeps us healthy
and what makes us sick.
And when I say that I guess Imean more on an inner life level
, the headlines that won't showup in your newsfeed or on your
(06:59):
phone or TV screen, but theheadlines of our very own soul
and what's happening within us.
And I guess I've probably comeby that fairly naturally.
When I was really little I wassomebody who was kind of always
making up stories in my head,and then when I grew a little
bit maybe like middle school,high school I started to narrate
my own life in the form ofjournaling and storytelling of
(07:20):
my own life and kind of I'm anatural reflector, and so I
think that somehow I have founda way to make a living out of
that.
Speaker 1 (07:28):
That's great.
Speaker 2 (07:29):
I'm grateful for, but I am, I'm also really
interested in, and I have founda lot of rich I don't want to
say content, that's not the wordI'm looking for but a lot of
rabbit trails to follow thathave become books.
When it comes to, what does itlook like?
What does formation of thehuman soul look like through the
(07:51):
process of decision making, andwhat has it done in me in those
moments when I've had bigdecisions to make that I thought
at the time you know thisdecision to go to grad school or
to have kids or to get marriedI'm kind of working in backwards
order there.
You know sort of some of thebig decisions that we've made
over our lives, but at the timethe decision felt like the thing
(08:13):
.
But as I reflect on thosemoments in our life where big
things have happened or wherewe've made big moves, I
recognize that, yeah, thedecision's important, but what's
even more important in manyways is the person who I am
becoming as I make my decisions.
Speaker 1 (08:31):
Wow, goodness, that's such a beautiful process to
think through.
What a beautiful lens.
Well, with that, as we'rerecording, we're towards the
start of a new year.
Can't believe we're halfwaythrough January.
I feel like it's flying, but alot of people find themselves
trying to figure out what's next.
There's a huge emphasis on goalsetting, looking out to the year
(08:54):
, mapping your time all of thesethings right.
They just saturate our feeds toalmost.
I look at it almost like apressure cooker to muster up all
the knowledge we have, all thestrength, all the might and
figure out the perfect wayforward, and I think it's
unsustainable.
Because of this pressure, somany people don't make it to the
(09:16):
start of the next year, or aslong as they would like, with
their goals because of thisunderlying stress that comes
with it.
But you welcome us into a newconversation and approach that,
I think, invites us to a deepexhale, and that's what we can
call discernment.
For many, this is not a newconcept.
For others, this might betotally new, and so I would love
(09:39):
to start off by you walking usthrough, I guess, the definition
of this.
So how would you definediscernment?
Speaker 2 (09:46):
Well, first, I'll just speak briefly to that
January first of the yearpressure.
I like to say that January isthe new week between Christmas
and the new year.
I like to take the whole monthof January and sometimes into
February to really reflect onthe year we just had.
There's no way we can fit thatinto that one week between.
(10:07):
It's a glorious week betweenChristmas and the new year, but
we want to do puzzles, we don'twant to plan our whole life and
look back on everything.
So I like extending that and Ithink this discernment concept,
to kind of answer your question,is I think that plays a part.
Discernment concept, to kind ofanswer your question, is I
think that plays a part.
(10:31):
Discernment is an interestingword.
It's a rich word, if you'll letit be.
A lot of us maybe have heard itin faith spaces, for example.
It's a word that's sort of a.
It holds hands withdecision-making.
But it's quite different in myexperience and kind of in my
definition of the word, in thatdiscernment is a process where
decision making is more sort oflike an action or maybe a moment
(10:53):
in time.
I think decision making is muchmore compelling to us because
it's actionable, it kind of getsa result.
It gets us to an answer andwhile there is a process there,
when you're making a decision,you know you're kind of headed
somewhere.
Discernment is much morenuanced.
It's a formation processnecessary to grow our faith, to
(11:15):
teach us what it means to hearour inner selves, our inner
wisdom, to hear God, todetermine our yeses from our nos
, and it also draws us intocommunity.
I think discernment is a deeplycommunal practice.
It's about becoming awholehearted person, about
learning how to lead confidentlyfrom a space of unknowing.
And what does it look like tobegin to know?
(11:36):
I think all of this is part ofour formation mind, body and
spirit.
And I'll also say you know bodyand spirit.
And I'll also say you know,unfortunately, discernment can
be deeply inefficient.
It can take a lot of time andpatience, and that's why I think
a lot of us would prefer tothink of things as like well,
(11:56):
I'm making a decision, this isclear, it's active, it's final.
I would much rather have adecision to make than a move to
discern.
But when it comes to those bigmoments in life or influencing
change within a system orleaving a meaningful
identity-forming room that'sbeen a part of our lives for a
long time.
We're rarely confronted with asimple binary decision to make.
(12:20):
Instead, we have to enter intoa process of determining what is
going to be the most generativespace for me, for my family,
for my work life, whatever thequestion is, and so I think
discernment, in short, is reallya process of naming what we
know to be true that may nothave been true in the past.
Speaker 1 (12:44):
Wow, that's so comprehensive and so well said,
gives us a lot to think aboutand process through.
Well, with that, you recentlywe said you released your book,
and I love the subtitle as wellhow to Walk into a Room, the Art
of Knowing when to Stay andwhen to walk away, and I don't
think that there's enoughresources on this for the person
(13:06):
kind of learning aboutdiscernment for the first time
or approaching these harddecisions, and so I'm so
grateful that you brought itinto culture right now.
I think it's very timely, and Iwent through the book taking
notes on what to talk about, andI could have you here for a
whole series if we went throughall of them.
But when you're thinkingthrough who this book is for, I
(13:27):
would love for you to maybe giveus some examples of some things
that people might be needing towalk away from, along with some
things that they might need tobe walking towards.
Speaker 2 (13:41):
Well, the reality is we are always leaving various
rooms of our lives, and when Isay room, I just mean any type
of commitment, any type of placethat we have found to be
comfortable, or a family place,or a workplace, whatever it
might be but we're alwaysentering and leaving rooms, and
whether that is the room ofrelationship, personal or
(14:04):
professional, the room ofvocation maybe it's a job or a
volunteer opportunity that youmaybe sense has run its course,
we watch people in the public dothis all the time.
I mean, I think the Duke andDuchess of Sussex you know they
sort of left the royal.
You know their royal dutiessenior royal duties in 2020.
We watched that happen publicly.
We saw Simone Biles pull out ofthe Olympics on live TV in 2020
(14:27):
.
It was actually in 2021, but itwas the 2020 Olympics.
The Beatles broke up, if youwere here way back then.
There's a lot of public exitsthat we see happen, but what
we're missing is what happenedbehind closed doors, what led to
the process of those verypublic figures leaving those
rooms.
(14:47):
And then what we also oftendon't see is what rooms they
walk into.
But we all are familiar withthis in our own lives, and so we
all know what it is to leavesomething behind or to enter
into a new opportunity, a newrole, maybe a new role even in
the same job.
It could be a new, likebecoming a parent for the first
time, or a grandparent or a stepparent.
(15:09):
It could be just moving to anew house or a new neighborhood
or starting some type ofrelationship that you haven't
had before.
So we all know what it means,but a lot of us don't think
about that process, and so Ithink that there are times when
we are in the middle, maybestanding at the threshold
between rooms, and I found Iwanted to provide something, a
(15:32):
framework, a conversation for usto normalize this process of
leaving rooms and finding newones, because often what can
happen if we don't normalize itis maybe there's something that
you loved and you've prayed forto get there, maybe you even
paid a lot of money, you got adegree to get this particular
job, let's say.
And then time goes on and maybethings change in you or around
(15:56):
you and you start to question it.
What can happen is, if it's nota normalized like, hey, we're
human people and we're alwaysthe healthy human rhythm of life
is to leave rooms and find newones.
But if we don't have thatnormalized, what happens is we
start to maybe be resentful ofour environment, we feel guilty
for questioning it because otherpeople would kill for this
opportunity and here I amquestioning it and so sometimes
(16:19):
we stay past our time because wedon't have a process for
discerning whether or not it'stime for us to go.
And so that's really why Iwrote this book is because I had
wished I had that, but also Iwanted to provide it for other
people to know that, hey, thisis normal, and also know that
every new beginning, even if youwanted it and loved it and
(16:41):
hoped for it, it's going toprobably be preceded by some
kind of ending, and that mightbe hard or sad.
And here's some ways we canprocess.
Speaker 1 (16:48):
Wow, emily, so good, and honestly, I'm not yeah, I'm
not hearing this conversationother places, so it's so healthy
that it's coming to the table.
I was thinking as you weresaying that do you think that
this is I mean, it's definitelya generational change.
Like I'm thinking back to mygrandparents era and a very
common conversation is oh, Iworked at the same job for 40
(17:10):
years and there's almost thislike value on, like loyalty and
long-term commitment.
Do you know what I'm saying?
Like, do you see a change withthe generation?
Speaker 2 (17:21):
I do, and I think it also depends on your cultural
and social location, becausethere may be some families or
situations where the opposite isvalued.
It's all about the communalvalue, because some people like
if you come from anentrepreneurial family, for
example, the value might bestarting something new, it might
(17:41):
be taking risk, it might be notstaying in one place for too
long.
So it really comes down towhat's the narrative of your
familial, social, culturalsurroundings and based on that,
that's going to determine howyou feel about staying or
leaving.
And it's not just a decision,because the reality is staying
(18:01):
or leaving could be neutral, butwe attach meaning to it, we
attach sometimes morality to it,because it's not just about
making a decision to stay orleave.
It becomes about our identityAm I a stayer or am I a leaver?
Am I a quitter?
And once we bring that decisioninto our identity now it's like
(18:27):
, okay, now it's rooted andmixed up and tied to a whole
bunch of things beneath thesurface in our inner life, to
where that decision now canbecome that much more difficult
to discern.
Which is why I think we needthis process to walk ourselves
through.
Speaker 1 (18:40):
Wow, wow, wow.
So good, remind me, do you havea background in sociology?
I don't, but I love thequestion.
Yeah, cause I mean you, we.
I think we share that lovecause I don't either, but I just
I love people, I love cultures.
I love because I don't either,but I just I love people, I love
cultures.
I love understanding why peopledo what they do, and it sounds
like you do too.
Speaker 2 (18:59):
Well, I'm a, I'm a trained listener really.
I mean, that really is my.
My professional training is asa listener, and I say that not
as a counselor but as a first itwas sign language interpreting,
so it was really part of my joband I got nationally certified
for this was to translate onelanguage into another.
But so much about the deafculture and the deaf community
(19:20):
is paying attention to not justwhat's being said but what's
meant by being what's being said, and you had to interpret more.
You know, kind of like, theintention behind the words.
And so that was sort of my likeundergrad training, undergrad
training.
And then I became a spiritualdirector years later where I'm
also listening and holdingprayerful space for people in
their spiritual lives and what'scaught up to in their lives, in
(19:41):
and around them.
So it's another kind of way ofpaying attention to, like what's
happening beneath the surface.
What do we say, but what do wemean?
And so there is someprofessional training there
behind the scenes.
But I also think it is justlike a natural proclivity to
being endlessly fascinated bywhat makes people tick, and kind
of the stories that we tellourselves Thanks for that
wording from Brene Brown Likewhat is the story I'm telling
(20:03):
myself, and you know I'm alwayspaying attention to that, not
just in my own life, but in thelives of like literally everyone
around me.
Speaker 1 (20:13):
Wow.
Well, I am soaking it upbecause I feel like it's my
language too and I'm like it'svery refreshing.
Well, there is a very helpfultool that you include in the
book, and these are 10 questions, and remind me what audience
these 10 questions are for.
This is to those leaving orcoming.
Speaker 2 (20:30):
Okay, so thank you for asking that.
Listen, people have told me, asthey've read this book, they're
like I need to read it againbecause you ask so many
questions in this book and it'sso true, I hope they're helpful.
You know, I've thought aboutlike if I were just to pull we
could write.
I feel like it'd be like awhole half the book is just
questions.
So I have, you know, towardsthe beginning of the process of
(20:54):
discerning is it time to leaveor stay?
You know, is it time to leaveor maybe you discern it's time
to stay?
I do have sort of an official10 questions that you can ask
yourself when you're questioninga room.
But then towards the end of thebook, when you're you know, as
you've gone through this process, there's also a list of really
helpful 10 more questions tosort of ask yourself.
And this could be honestly.
It's it's framed up for asyou're entering into your next
(21:17):
thing, but it could truly beused for any, any kind of
situation that you're in,whether you're kind of
evaluating the rooms you're inor where am I now.
It's sort of like a place toget you present to what is true
right now.
So that's sort of what thesewould be helpful for, I think.
Speaker 1 (21:33):
Phenomenal.
I respond, my personalityresponds very well to guides
like this, and so you weresaying that maybe there's too
many.
I'm like no, no, no, there'snot enough.
Speaker 2 (21:41):
Like I could use all the questions.
Speaker 1 (21:45):
But if it would be okay with you, here's what I'm
picturing this next, these nextfew minutes, looking like I'm
going to read you one of thequestions that you wrote, like
from next few minutes, lookinglike I'm going to read you one
of the questions that you wrotefrom the book, and I would love
for you to process as much or aslittle as you would like,
(22:06):
expand on them as much or aslittle as you would like, just
to give people a better grasp onhow to use this as they're
entering their own rooms in thisnext season.
Sound good, that sounds great.
Okay.
So the first one is what ismine to do?
Speaker 2 (22:16):
This is a question we've probably seen floating
around the internet.
I first heard it from SuzanneStabile, who is an Enneagram
teacher, wisdom teacher, and shetalks about you know, kind of
her sort of way that she movesthrough the world is she tends
to do more than is hers to do,she tends to take on too much,
and so I think this is a greatquestion, though, even if that's
(22:39):
not your tendency orpersonality is to ask ourselves
always what is mine to do herein this moment, in this room, as
I'm entering this space?
What belongs to me and keepingin mind that as we walk into a
room, if we hold that questionwith us, it could keep us from
overfunctioning and that's aword that was new to me in the
(23:00):
last five or so years is it'skeep me from doing more than my
share of responsibilities here,because the reality is it is
possible to.
I think it's good to follow inother people's footsteps and
learn from them, but we don'twant to live someone else's life
, and so paying attention towhat is mine to do here in this
space can give some longevityinto the rooms that we enter
(23:24):
rather than burning us all theway out.
So good.
Speaker 1 (23:28):
So so good, Wow.
Well, the second is where orwith whom can I safely feel my
feelings?
Speaker 2 (23:36):
You know, as we mentioned before, when you leave
a room, a lot of emotion maycome up there, even if you were
happy to go, and that means thatwhen you enter a new one, new
emotions may rise up.
And so there has to be a placeas you kind of cross a threshold
into a new situation,environment, even if it's
celebratory, there has to be aplace, as you kind of cross a
threshold, into a new situation,environment, even if it's
(24:00):
celebratory, there has to be aplace where you are able to
safely feel your feelingswithout the person who is
holding space for you to,without them feeling the need to
fix it or to agenda you oranything like that.
Feelings are meant to be felt,and so it may not be appropriate
to share your feelings in everyroom that you enter, but I
think it's good to know and namein advance who are those safe
(24:21):
people who can walk with you,even if it's just metaphorically
, as you enter these rooms andconsider that your feelings
matter Obviously you're notgoing to make all your decisions
based on just feeling, but thatthey do have a seat at the
table, so having people or evena person in your life who you
can safely say how you reallyfeel about this new situation
(24:44):
you're walking into is so, soimportant kind of like
mentorship takeaways.
Speaker 1 (24:52):
For me early in marriage was a mentor saying
Katie, not every friend is meantto carry every role and I am an
extrovert, I love people, but Iwas also learning how to
process, like vulnerability,authenticity, and I just wanted
to process everything witheveryone.
I wanted everyone to beeverything.
It was a messy season.
(25:12):
Everything with everyone, Iwanted everyone to be everything
.
It was a messy season, but thatwas so helpful for me to manage
expectations, to preventrelationship burnout, everything
that you're talking about andso I think it's so important for
us to process that, to know whowe could safely feel your
feelings with, because that'snot everyone's safely feel your
feelings with, because that'snot everyone's, all of our
(25:36):
friends' jobs, right?
Speaker 2 (25:41):
That's right, yes, and we could never.
It's unfair to expect it to beso, and so I love that wisdom
that you added.
Speaker 1 (25:43):
I think that's really important.
Very, very good, wow, well, whois with me is number three.
Speaker 2 (25:49):
There is a thing about when you enter into new
space.
Oftentimes you're doing it byyourself.
You know if you start a new job, you're the new person in the
job, or if you're going to a newschool or if you move to a new
town.
So walking into a room as thenew person, by definition, often
means you're doing so alone,and so it's been helpful for me
to practice presence andawareness as I enter new rooms,
(26:12):
considering that, in reality,I'm actually bringing.
I am bringing some people withme.
I'm bringing all the people wholove me.
Though they may not be here,they can be with me in spirit.
I'm bringing even my ancestorswho have come before me.
That's not language I normallyuse, but I do think about.
Like I have a mother and I hada grandmother and a great
grandmother who thought life wasalways going to be the way it
(26:34):
was right then for them, andthen things changed and they now
are no longer here, but Icontinue on and it's because
they were here first.
So recognizing that I am partof a longer story and it's not a
perfect story, but I carry iton, and walking into this new
room is a part of that and, Ithink, also recognizing God who
(26:55):
walks into the room with me.
That God's promise to us is.
I find more comfort in thepromise of God that God is not,
that God is in control, but thatGod is with me, there's
presence there no matter whathappens.
And the reality is we reallynever have to walk into a room
alone.
Speaker 1 (27:11):
Goodness, never have to walk into a room alone.
Goodness, I think thatancestral is that the word?
Like awareness, because that'snot a term that I use often
either.
I think that's really profoundand almost empowering in a way.
Yeah, I think so too.
Yeah, wow, goodness.
Yeah, I like that.
I'm going to chew on that somemore after this.
But the next one is what do Ineed more of right now?
Speaker 2 (27:36):
There's no use faking it or making it sound good.
I think, just honestly, in themoment as we are in our spaces,
as we're being present, of justhonestly taking account what do
I need more of right now?
Do I need more?
Do I need more sleep?
Do I need more clarity?
Do I need some more time?
Do now, do I need more?
(27:59):
Do I need more sleep?
Do I need more clarity?
Do I need some more time?
Do I need more belonging?
Do I wish I was understood?
I don't.
I don't think we have to findthe energy all the time to make
our needs sound impressive or toeven find ways to meet them,
but just being aware thatthey're there.
And I say that because a lot oftimes when we are on the
opposite side, which is I'mdeciding to leave a room, we
often find ourselves with kindof a buildup of resentment or
(28:20):
frustration that lives on thetop and we're like I need to get
out of this place because I'mso tired or because everything's
the worst.
It's because we don't askourselves what do I need more of
right now?
Often enough, and because ofthat things can build up, I
think, and kind of take up spacein our inner life and, I think,
asking yourself this questionwhile we may not always be able
(28:42):
to get the more that we want,the reality is you might want it
, and so it's really good to payattention to those desires that
live beneath the surface,because knowing they're there
helps us live more authenticallyin the moment and I and for me
at least it keeps me from kindof building up that resentment
or that like I'm trying to beeverything for everyone else and
no one's here for me, you know,just recognizing wait, what do
(29:05):
I need right now?
And just being aware of that.
Speaker 1 (29:07):
That's really good.
As we're going into this newyear, my husband, colby and I
were processing a lot and we'vedone so.
We transitioned back fromThailand to the States, launched
a small business, went throughCOVID, lots of seasons that
we've needed to like, processand work through and seeking out
mentorship and just healing andall of that stuff, and we said
at the beginning of this yearwe're like this year we actually
(29:29):
need a little less of that anda little more fun, and that was
really profound to us because weare able to more intentionally
pick the rooms that we're goingthrough this year with that kind
of in mind, and so I canunderstand that and I think a
lot of people will be able totoo.
That's good, beautiful, okay,what is?
(29:50):
Oh, there we go.
What is the best thing that canhappen here?
So good.
Speaker 2 (29:55):
Well, my default is usually the opposite, is to, as
I start something new is, I'llkind of go to the opposite end,
which is what is the worst thingthat might happen here?
But to ask what is the bestthing that could happen here is
making a practice to considerthat the best thing is possible,
that what if it all does workout?
Like what a mind, what awonderful mind.
(30:17):
Experiment to practice hopefulthings in every room that we
enter, and this allows us tosort of move beneath the banner
of a hopeful vision rather thantrying to move underneath the
burden of potential catastrophe,which is really no way to live.
Speaker 1 (30:34):
Can you say that part again, the banner of potential
catastrophe, which is really noway to live Can you say that
part again, the banner of what?
Speaker 2 (30:40):
Do you remember what you said?
Yeah, just sort of livingbeneath living and learning to
move beneath the banner of ahopeful vision of the space that
you're in, rather than ifyou're asking yourself what's
the worst thing that can happenall the time.
You're sort of livingunderneath the burden of
potential catastrophe at everymoment, at every turn.
And I don't know about you, butI don't come up with my best
(31:01):
ideas or have my most trustingrelationships if I'm constantly
considering what's the worstthing that might happen.
Speaker 1 (31:08):
Yes, yeah, I love that visual and I love how
that's said.
The next one what have I hadtoo much of?
Speaker 2 (31:16):
lately.
Well, I love that you just kindof answered this one, because I
think that was such a greatexample of that.
Just the question alone couldhelp us set boundaries in the
rooms of our lives and toclarify if a particular room was
good for us.
Today, For example, I justlived through this and this is
kind of a silly example, youknow, if I mean I just lived
through this in and this is kindof a silly example, but we have
several birthdays right aroundChristmas.
(31:38):
So we have Christmas and thenNew Year's and then we have, you
know, my twins birthday andthen a couple other family
members birthdays.
And let me tell you what, bylike January the fourth, I was
like I have had too muchcelebration.
I cannot go to one more party,I cannot make one more toast,
and I mean my body was tellingme like you need like a piece of
bread and like some soup and along nap.
(32:00):
Just, you know, your body kindof tells you when you've had too
much of something.
But I think the same can betrue when it comes to
environments and decisions, thatknowing like just you know, the
experience of life tells mewe've been a bit too serious or
the opposite.
We've been celebrating a littlebit too much and I need some
like stability.
So asking what I've had toomuch of lately, I think can be a
(32:21):
helpful, informative question.
Speaker 1 (32:23):
Wow, really good.
I was giggling a little bitbecause I was.
I can understand that.
Do you know that meme?
And I shouldn't make fun ofthis lady, but the meme went so
viral.
It was that woman who wasgetting ready for a blizzard and
they said what's your plan forthe blizzard?
And she said I'm going to eatsome soup and dessert and get
all fat and sassy.
Do you know what I'm talkingabout?
(32:47):
No, I haven't seen that one.
It's so sweet.
She's an older lady who justplanned on eating dessert and
bread and being all sassy duringthe storm and I kind of got
that sweet visual Okay so theother one is what bothers me
most?
Speaker 2 (33:01):
A lot of us, depending on you, know again
that social, family, cultural,location, the question, what
bothers you might not be onethat you tend to ask yourself
very often.
In fact, some of us probablytry to avoid admitting what's
bothering us.
But I do think that knowing andnaming what bothers us can be
really powerful, because reallyany meaningful change we've ever
(33:21):
made in our lives probablystarted by us being bothered.
And even small changes too,Like I mean, I'm bothered that
my hair's too long.
I'm going to get a haircut, youknow, even something as small
as that goes like it does startwith being bothered or
frustrated and so askingourselves, like what bothers me
the most?
That's one to pay attention to,because the reality is there
(33:42):
might be 10 things that botheryou in this new space that
you're entering.
But if there's one that bothersyou the most, that's one that
maybe you can take action on,because we can't take action on
everything, but some of thethings that bother us are things
that could be a clue to ournext right thing.
And sometimes things bother usbecause we are uniquely made and
designed and even like have aunique proclivity towards
(34:05):
impacting meaningful change inan area.
So you'll see a lot of timesyou know the things that break
our hearts, the news storiesthat kind of keep us up at night
.
A lot of times we can feelhelpless because we feel like
there's nothing I can do tochange this.
But if you start to get to thatplace where you feel bothered
by something, pay attention,because that's a really powerful
(34:27):
motivator toward asking myselfthat question what is mine to do
here?
And what is just one next rightthing I can do within my own
sense of agency to impact changein this area?
Speaker 1 (34:42):
I think it's really important to give people the
invitation to make room for that.
I've really never processedthat and wow, that's really good
.
I mean, yeah, it's very commonto be told like well, everything
bothers you, or um, I don'tknow, to almost feel guilty.
I guess that's what I'm gettingat, to feel like it's a
negative, like a negativequality yeah.
(35:04):
That's yeah, that's really good, that's really good.
So the thing that bothers memost, wow.
The next one is what do I haveto offer?
Speaker 2 (35:17):
I think presence matters a lot here, and I think
a lot of us forget that we havesomething to offer in the form
of the person who we are, notjust what we can do for
everybody.
Speaker 1 (35:29):
Wow.
Speaker 2 (35:29):
So, knowing and naming what you have to offer in
the form of your wisdom, yourclarity, the joy you bring, the
discern, naming that as a thing,as something important, can
help us, helps me show up morefully in the room.
Wow, wow, wow, wow.
The last two.
(36:18):
Last but certainly not leastbut what needs undoing?
Well, I think a lot of timesagain, we ask the opposite is
what needs doing?
But a lot of times, somethingneeds to be undone.
And when we're faced withconfusion or tragedy, chaos,
difficulty, our first questionis often well, we got to do
something about it.
But I think and that might betrue, but I think we also need
(36:39):
to consider is there anythinghere that needs to first be
undone?
And this might be true when itcomes to systems or groups or
the way things have always beendone.
You know, you hear that a lot.
Well, this is how we've alwaysdone it.
Well, what might need to beundone in order for the system
to be more just, to be moreinclusive, to be more of
(37:02):
something that it can't be if itcontinues to go the way it's
always gone?
Speaker 1 (37:06):
Wow, I remember when I first started writing, first
started processing all of this,I called my blog the sweet
unraveling.
And and people would laugh at me.
They're like, katie, unravelingis a bad thing.
Are you sure that's the wordyou want to use?
I'm like, oh, I am very surethis is exactly the terminology
I'm going for, um, because itwasn't unraveling and it was
(37:31):
sweet, you know.
Yeah, and there were some verysignificant things that needed
to be undone in order for growth, in order for health, in order
for all of this on the otherside, in order to if we're
talking about it in this contextenter new opportunities.
Well, and so it's very sweetfor me to read that, because I
(37:53):
do get it.
I do get it, and I think it'san important process that not
many of us understand.
Hmm, make space for, yeah, it'sgood.
Well, lastly, who can I ask forhelp?
Speaker 2 (38:09):
This one's a good reminder that the discernment
process is a communal one, andthere's something really
profound and joyful about beinghuman together.
So, if we want to do our goodwork for the long haul and when
I say good work I mean bothvocation, but also the work of
building a family and being partof a community and doing good
(38:31):
in the world there's longevitythere that we want to be true,
and so this work of love, ofactivism, of ministry, we can't
do this alone, and so we need topay attention to those people
who are bothered by the samethings.
We're bothered by people we canlink arms with in order to
impact change, and so I thinkthat's who.
(38:52):
Can I ask for help?
That's an important question tohave kind of in our arsenal of
questions that we are askingwhen it comes to the spaces that
we're entering.
Speaker 1 (39:01):
Really good, I love that these are in the book.
Really good, I love that theseare in the book.
(39:23):
But as I'm looking at thesequestions on my notes, I'm like
man, this would be a great thingto print and tape into a
planner on your mirror.
It's just, they're goodprocessing questions, because I
don't see these things asquestions that are processed
like instantly.
It's almost like a, it's aprocess, right, it's a big time
to chew through them and to landon answers, the whole
discernment concepts that we'retalking about.
So they are in the book, thoughfor listeners who are wanting to
chew through them more havingto make the types of decisions
(39:43):
of what rooms to enter and toleave, hard conversations, the
brink of change, all of that.
And I could think of people inmy life too who have felt that
maybe they can't trustthemselves in making these
decisions or maybe, beyond that,that they'll make the wrong
decision.
And you talk a lot about theconcept of being your own friend
, building trust with yourselfin the process of deciding these
(40:07):
next steps.
So I would love to know whatyou say to the person who maybe
feels frozen or needs to developthat.
I'll call it a reckoning withthemselves in this process.
Speaker 2 (40:20):
It's a beautiful question.
It's one I have a lot ofcompassion for.
I think the first thing I wouldprobably ask this person is to
see if they could name whatthey're afraid of, or at least
one thing they might be afraidof.
From there I might see ifthere's just one next right
thing they feel comfortabledoing.
Several authors that I haveread and admire.
(40:44):
One is Marie Forleo and theother is a new author.
Her name is Tracy G.
She has a book releasing inJanuary called the Magic of
Knowing what you Want, but theyboth talk about the importance
of how action leads to clarityand how we can't.
I think it's Tracy who says youcan't answer a.
(41:05):
How does she say it?
It's basically how you can'tanswer a doing question.
Hold on, let me look it up sowe can cut this out right.
You can edit yeah, yeah, ofcourse.
Yeah, because it's worthfinding the actual quote.
You can't answer a.
How does she say this about aquestion?
Can't answer a doing you can't.
(41:27):
Oh, I know what it is.
Okay, I think it's Tracy whosays you can't think your way
through a doing question, andthat has been so helpful for me,
because I think the person whofeels frozen, is working really
hard to solve the problem oftheir decision in their head.
(41:47):
But clarity comes.
And Marie Forleo says you can'trush clarity, which means we
can't force it to come beforeit's ready.
But she also says, on the flipside of that, clarity comes from
action, not thought.
So I quote her a lot, and nowI'm adding Tracy into the mix,
because this idea of claritycoming from action can be deeply
satisfying after we move, butit can be deeply terrifying
(42:11):
before we move because we don'tknow what's going to happen on
the other side.
But I can speak from experience, as someone who I am doing
repressed, like I would muchrather.
I feel my way through the worldand I can think my way through
the world, but when it comes toaction, that is my last resort.
So I know of that which I speak.
But I think, if we can, insteadof thinking about making big
(42:34):
moves, there is a lot of powerin small moves and so thinking
that, okay, what is just onenext right thing I can do in the
direction that I think I wantto go, next right thing I can do
in the direction that I think Iwant to go, recognizing that
the emphasis isn't on the wordright, but on the word next,
what is just one next thing youcan do and you don't have to
(42:57):
start or end all at once, andthat's why the discernment
process is one that I love tothink about, rather than the
decision-making process, becausedecision feels it's not, but we
often kind of interpret it asif it's binary, like I'm going
to do this and now it's just onestep.
But actually most decisions,especially big ones, are many,
(43:17):
many, many small moves over aperiod of maybe even a long time
.
So if someone's feeling frozen,I think that in a long, long
answer to say, I think that'swhat I would say is recognizing
the power of small moves.
But a small move is better thanno move at all.
Speaker 1 (43:35):
Wow.
Well, to the person listeningtoday who's thinking, wow, I
would love to really grow inthis.
I would love to have someonewalk through this with me,
whether it's a mentor, aspiritual director Well, kind of
answering the question, but I'dlove to hear from you as well
who is the type of person thatmaybe they should seek out.
How can they seek them out?
(43:56):
I guess, walk them through thata little bit.
Speaker 2 (44:00):
Well, I do think that remembering we can be this
person for ourselves is reallyimportant and that's why I wrote
the book is I hope that thebook can help you be that person
for yourself.
But I also think we need eachother, and so one of the things
my husband and I did when thiswas back in 2013, when he had
been a pastor for 12 years andreally felt led out of that role
(44:24):
, that official role kind of, inthe church, but wasn't sure
what was next.
So what we did was we gathereda group of what we called
co-listeners, and they werepeople in our lives who knew us
really well, who were kind ofyes, and people.
They weren't going to shut usdown, they were going to kind of
hear us and then maybe offersomething in a very improv way.
They were people who knew howto ask the second and third
(44:47):
question, so they didn't justwant to hear what we had to say
and then give us an answer, butthey knew how to hold that kind
of open space for us to be ableto talk, and then they could ask
follow-up questions and thenfollow-up questions of the
follow-up questions, and thatwas really important to us.
So we called them co-listeners.
(45:14):
Years later I learned that thisis actually.
There's actually a thing amongthe Religious Society of Friends
, otherwise known as the Quakers, and they have this process
kind of perfected and that'ssomething that we have benefited
from, as we have participatedin and worshipped in a Quaker
community for the last severalyears.
But they call this a clearnesscommittee, where you kind of
bring this just like.
It's very much similar to whatI just shared, but we did it
informally and didn't know itwas like a thing, but later
(45:35):
learned it was a thing and sothat was really really beautiful
.
But the same way, the clearnesscommunity listens and they ask
questions and they let you kindof talk your way all the way out
and then are not afraid ofsilence in community, which I
think is really powerful.
So I think, just avoid thepeople who you there might be.
(45:57):
Here's what I'll say.
There might be people in yourlife who you think you ought to
be able to trust or you thinkyou ought to ask for their
opinion when it comes towhatever this decision you're
making.
But for whatever reason, youhave a sense you have some type
of hesitation and I wouldencourage you to listen to that
hesitation that you get to talkto people who you have full
(46:23):
confidence as best as you knowhow to trust them, and that it's
okay.
If there's a certain person orgroup of someone's who, just
with this particular decision,don't quite make the cut, that's
okay.
Speaker 1 (46:38):
Incredible.
So many different ways that wecould take this Wherever you're
at listener.
Oh my gosh Words are a littlehard sometimes.
Oh my gosh Words are a littlehard Words are hard.
Words are hard.
Coffee is good, but I need moreof it.
So I guess what I'm saying iswherever you're at listeners
like whether you're looking toleave a room, walk into a room,
(47:01):
maybe helping someone goingthrough this process there's
really something for all of usto process in this.
So much more in the book.
I would encourage all of youguys to run and get your copy
available for delivery right now, which is always a treat.
Emily, I'd love to hear fromyou what maybe didn't we cover
(47:22):
that you would like people toknow about the book.
Speaker 2 (47:28):
Oh, you know, I didn't expect that question.
Speaker 1 (47:31):
Sorry, you could skip it if you'd like.
Speaker 2 (47:33):
No, I think it's fine .
A couple things I would say.
One is anybody who has thisbook.
I have a free offering foreverybody who has the book.
In the back there's a QR codethat you can scan with your
phone and it takes you directlyto the Quiet Collection app,
which is an app that we'vedeveloped, and inside that it
(47:54):
will basically you'll follow theprocess, you'll put your email
in, blah blah blah and you willget a special code to download a
collection of blessings forhellos and goodbyes that we have
created specifically forreaders of this book, because I
assume that anybody who has theneed to pick this book up,
they're most likely saying bothhellos and goodbyes, so I
(48:16):
created a series of blessingsthat you can listen to.
There's also transcripts if youprefer to read them, and that's
something that's just a lot ofpeople don't know about, but
it's just there for the readerand it's free, and so I like to
mention that.
But again, that's called the.
It's a collection of blessingsfor hellos and goodbyes, and so
that's, again, just scanned inthe back of the book, available
for anyone who has it.
Speaker 1 (48:38):
What an incredible gift.
I actually didn't get to thatpoint, so I'm going to have to
do that myself, but we end eachof our conversations with the
same three questions for all ofour guests, and I'd love to hear
your answers as well as we getto know you.
The first one is something thatyou have eaten recently and
loved.
Speaker 2 (48:55):
Oh gosh.
Okay, so I make this.
It's kind of a Panera dupe soup.
It's a chicken and wild ricesoup, that the one that you can
get at Panera, but you can makeit at home too, and I forgot
about it for this whole seasonuntil recently, and I just made
it this weekend and I was sohappy because it's delicious
(49:15):
I've actually, I can't believeit.
Speaker 1 (49:17):
I've never got, I've never ordered that one.
Oh it's so good.
Speaker 2 (49:20):
I mean it's good at panera, but also you can make it
at home.
So I'm here to tell you that'samazing.
Speaker 1 (49:25):
That's great.
Speaker 2 (49:30):
Okay, something you have found to be beautiful
lately, one of my favoritethings to do lately is I get up
in the morning.
It's this time of year, it'sbefore the sun comes up, because
the sun comes up later, so it'seasier and I sit in the corner
of my sunroom office and itfaces east, and one of the most
beautiful parts of my day iswhen that sun begins to come up
(49:50):
over the horizon.
Of course, I can't see the sun,I just see the sky changing and
it's so beautiful and I'malways so amazed by the reality
that this happens every singleday, and every day it's just as
beautiful.
It's like it never gets old.
Speaker 1 (50:05):
Goodness, that's really sweet.
As you were saying that, I waslike I'm directionally
challenged, really bad, and I'mlike I'm thinking in my house.
I'm like what direction is eastin my house?
It's awful, oh goodness.
Okay, and a gathering.
Actually, we switched up ourquestions.
(50:25):
What one do I want to ask you?
If you're not prepared for thisone, let me know and we could
switch back.
But our new last question issomething random you've
discovered recently that youthink everyone should know about
.
I've been loving hearing theseanswers.
It's fun.
Yeah, an Amazon purchase aNetflix show, anything random
like that.
Speaker 2 (50:47):
Okay, let me think for a second.
Speaker 1 (50:49):
I'm happy to answer it.
Speaker 2 (50:51):
Okay, let me look around, because there are so
many things that it could beOkay.
Well, this is maybe noteveryone should know about, but
anybody who has to use yourphone for the internet in any
(51:13):
way, like if you ever have tomake a video, or like I often
and you know, working online anddoing things online, I often
have to make videos.
I found this like dumb phonething I don't even know if it's
called.
This is terrible.
It's got like suctions on theback of it.
You just stick it to your phoneand then your phone will stick
(51:33):
to almost any surface so you canjust put it up anywhere, like
if you, even if you just like ifyou want to show something to
people, you just stick yourphone to the wall and there it
is.
But I found it at Target and itwas just like on the end cap.
(51:54):
It was, I think, 10 bucks I puton my kids' stockings and it's
been so dumb.
But also kind of fun because Ifeel like now I'm not hindered,
like when my you know, when Ineed to make a video for
something, I don't have to likeprop my phone up on 10 books and
make sure it doesn't fall over.
It's like I can just stick itto the window and all is well.
Speaker 1 (52:06):
I love that.
I've been trying to make thatprocess easier on my end too,
and I don't own one yet, sothat's, that's good.
I'll look into that.
And you were talking aboutstocking stuffers too, and I was
just laughing that you werecalling it dumb because it's not
done dumb, but I get whatyou're saying.
Speaker 2 (52:20):
It's like well it's like it feels like it should be
like there should be somethingmore profound or cool.
Speaker 1 (52:26):
Well, I was making Wesley's stocking and he's only
like a year and a half, justabout and I wanted everything to
be really intentional and I wasshowing my husband what I got
and he pulled out this one superrandom thing.
He's like what the heck is this?
I was like Colb I needed onedumb one dumb thing to add to
the stocking.
That's good.
So it was some just like cheesylittle thing to add.
(52:47):
So that's fun, that's reallyfun.
Speaker 2 (52:50):
Well, I'm going to attach one of those and it's
like a.
It's like a grippy, I don'tknow what it's called Like.
It's like a grippy or a suctionmount type of thing.
That's what it is.
You can probably picture.
Speaker 1 (53:00):
I could definitely like think of, like.
I've seen influencers use themand so I could picture what
you're talking about.
I'll link one in the show notesfor anyone else that might be
interested.
Um, I'm going to reference, um,maybe Tracy Chee's book too, um
, uh, in the show notes, andthen of course, yours, uh, that
everyone can get their copy of.
Is there a place that's betterfor people to order than others?
(53:20):
That maybe supports you more?
Speaker 2 (53:22):
that you want to send them to buy it.
No, not really.
Speaker 1 (53:25):
No, anywhere Okay.
So you guys can purchase itwherever books are sold.
Um, and where do you wantpeople to follow along website
and handles?
Where can they find you?
Speaker 2 (53:35):
Oh yeah, you can find me basically it's Emily P
Freeman everywhere.
Website Instagram I've beenplaying on blue sky lately, Um,
but you know that's not reallythe place, so would say
instagram and um and the websiteokay, what is blue sky amelie?
that's new to me yeah, it's likeum instead of twitter, slash x,
(53:55):
okay, instead of threads.
It's like it's like a newversion of that called blue sky
um, but it's not owned by metaor elon or any of any of those
it's.
I don't know who the owner is,but it's someone, so it's sort
of like.
I don't know that a ton ofpeople are there yet, but there
are a few people who I follow onother places who have moved
(54:17):
over there and seem to like itso far, but it's new, so who
knows, who knows what chaosmight ensue there eventually.
Speaker 1 (54:24):
Always something new, right To keep up with, but
that's right.
Thank you so much, emily.
This was so rich, so useful.
I picture this episode beingshared with people in our
circles that are going throughseasons that could use this kind
of wisdom and direction on nextsteps.
So thank you for leadingauthentically and bring this
book out into the world.
(54:44):
We appreciate you Absolutely.
Thanks for having me, of course.
Well, guys, thank you so muchand we will see you next week.
There are a few names of people that have commonly
come up in friend groups thatI've been in all around the
world, and while Michael Bubleis one of them, Emily P Freeman
has always been another one.
She is very commonly known forher book the Next Right Thing,
and you'll hear me say that alot refer to her work in that
book.
A lot and friends have oftenencouraged me with the same.
(00:23):
Well, it was a joy more than ajoy, it was profound and an
honor to host her on the showtoday, and we are talking about
her latest book, how to Walkinto a Room.
Guys, this conversation ispoignant.
If you listened to my episodewith Liz Walsh a few weeks ago,
you will remember that I learnedhow to use that word, Very
(00:45):
proud to use it again.
It is perfect timing for thosewho are really in every walk of
life.
I have said since having thisconversation with Emily and
since reading the book, that I'mgoing to gift this to friends
in every season of transitionthat you could possibly imagine,
because it's such agrace-filled approach, such an
(01:09):
insightful approach.
You could tell that Emily knowsthe heart of the person in
transition and speaks exactly tothem.
Well, enough gushing If you donot know who Emily is, Emily P
Freeman is the New York Timesbestselling author of six books.
The Next Right Thing, A Simple,Soulful Practice for Making Life
Decisions, how to Walk into aRoom, the Art of Knowing when to
(01:32):
Stay and when to Walk Away arejust the names of two of the
ones that she's getting a lot ofattention for right now.
With a master's degree inspiritual formation and
leadership from FriendsUniversity, her most important
work is to help create soulspace and offer spiritual
direction and discernment foranyone struggling with decision
fatigue.
Her nationally ranked podcast,the Next Right Thing, has more
(01:57):
than 27 million downloads, andshe regularly offers perspective
and clarity through her weeklynewsletter, the Soul Minimalist.
Emily is a glad partner to herhusband, John, and together they
have three children, two incollege and one in high school.
Guys, you are going to be justawestruck and encouraged and
left with so much food forthought after this conversation.
(02:21):
I am so grateful that I get tobring it to you Well after this
conversation.
I am so grateful that I get tobring it to you.
Well.
Whenever February comes along,my mind automatically shifts to
spring.
So as far as I'm concerned, weare on a speed train to spring,
and I am very happy about it.
But if I stop and let realitysoak in, I know that we have a
few cozy, cold weeks left, andso I might as well embrace it.
(02:42):
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Hi, I'm Katie, a hospitalityeducator and the host of Making
Room by Gather podcast.
I am set to see our communitiesget back to the table through
hospitality, but it wasn'talways this way.
My husband and I moved toThailand and through it I
experienced some loneliness, andwith it I was given a choice to
(04:14):
sit back and accept it or to dosomething about it.
And for me that meant twothings that I needed the healing
to learn how to accept aninvitation and the confidence to
know how to extend one.
Through this process, Ideveloped some of the richest
and deepest relationships of mylife.
Through Making Room by Gather,you will hear conversations from
(04:35):
myself and experts in the areasof food, design and
relationships.
You see there are countlessthings trying to keep us from
the table.
But can I tell you something?
Take a seat because you areready, you are capable, you are
a good host.
Oh my goodness.
I have been so ready for thisconversation.
(04:57):
For a while.
You've been so gracious with us.
I'm so excited to be here.
We are celebrating a launch ofyour latest book.
How to Walk into a Room andremind me when was the launch of
this book, the official launch?
So?
Speaker 2 (05:12):
this book, released in March of 2024.
So we're not quite a year yet.
Speaker 1 (05:18):
Okay, okay.
Well, we are very excited foryou.
I feel like the conversationbehind it is one that all of us
can will be encouraged by in onedirection or another, so I want
to dive into it.
So I have been in communitiesthat have deeply been inspired
by your work for years, and youoffer such a level of I'll call
(05:41):
it understanding of the humanheart through your writing.
That's so approachable and it'srefreshing to receive, and I
think if anyone reads your work,they'll know what I'm talking
about.
And one thing I know is peoplethat carry this kind of
understanding of people andrelationship often have gone
through a lot to get to thatplace, and so I want to hear
(06:05):
more of your story.
What do you want people to knowabout becoming the Emily
Freeman that we know today?
Speaker 2 (06:13):
Well, it's a good question and it's so funny.
I've heard that Maybe you'veheard that saying before that
says we can't read our own label, and so it's really hard
sometimes to know what are themoments in time, what's the
narrative arc of my own life,that have sort of shaped me into
becoming the person who I amand am continuing to become.
But I do know that I'm someonewho pays attention to what keeps
(06:37):
my attention, and so for meover the years that's been the
interplay of faith andcreativity.
I'm endlessly fascinated byknowing what keeps us healthy
and what makes us sick.
And when I say that I guess Imean more on an inner life level
, the headlines that won't showup in your newsfeed or on your
(06:59):
phone or TV screen, but theheadlines of our very own soul
and what's happening within us.
And I guess I've probably comeby that fairly naturally.
When I was really little I wassomebody who was kind of always
making up stories in my head,and then when I grew a little
bit maybe like middle school,high school I started to narrate
my own life in the form ofjournaling and storytelling of
(07:20):
my own life and kind of I'm anatural reflector, and so I
think that somehow I have founda way to make a living out of
that.
Speaker 1 (07:28):
That's great.
Speaker 2 (07:29):
I'm grateful for, but I am, I'm also really
interested in, and I have founda lot of rich I don't want to
say content, that's not the wordI'm looking for but a lot of
rabbit trails to follow thathave become books.
When it comes to, what does itlook like?
What does formation of thehuman soul look like through the
(07:51):
process of decision making, andwhat has it done in me in those
moments when I've had bigdecisions to make that I thought
at the time you know thisdecision to go to grad school or
to have kids or to get marriedI'm kind of working in backwards
order there.
You know sort of some of thebig decisions that we've made
over our lives, but at the timethe decision felt like the thing
(08:13):
.
But as I reflect on thosemoments in our life where big
things have happened or wherewe've made big moves, I
recognize that, yeah, thedecision's important, but what's
even more important in manyways is the person who I am
becoming as I make my decisions.
Speaker 1 (08:31):
Wow, goodness, that's such a beautiful process to
think through.
What a beautiful lens.
Well, with that, as we'rerecording, we're towards the
start of a new year.
Can't believe we're halfwaythrough January.
I feel like it's flying, but alot of people find themselves
trying to figure out what's next.
There's a huge emphasis on goalsetting, looking out to the year
(08:54):
, mapping your time all of thesethings right.
They just saturate our feeds toalmost.
I look at it almost like apressure cooker to muster up all
the knowledge we have, all thestrength, all the might and
figure out the perfect wayforward, and I think it's
unsustainable.
Because of this pressure, somany people don't make it to the
(09:16):
start of the next year, or aslong as they would like, with
their goals because of thisunderlying stress that comes
with it.
But you welcome us into a newconversation and approach that,
I think, invites us to a deepexhale, and that's what we can
call discernment.
For many, this is not a newconcept.
For others, this might betotally new, and so I would love
(09:39):
to start off by you walking usthrough, I guess, the definition
of this.
So how would you definediscernment?
Speaker 2 (09:46):
Well, first, I'll just speak briefly to that
January first of the yearpressure.
I like to say that January isthe new week between Christmas
and the new year.
I like to take the whole monthof January and sometimes into
February to really reflect onthe year we just had.
There's no way we can fit thatinto that one week between.
(10:07):
It's a glorious week betweenChristmas and the new year, but
we want to do puzzles, we don'twant to plan our whole life and
look back on everything.
So I like extending that and Ithink this discernment concept,
to kind of answer your question,is I think that plays a part.
Discernment concept, to kind ofanswer your question, is I
think that plays a part.
(10:31):
Discernment is an interestingword.
It's a rich word, if you'll letit be.
A lot of us maybe have heard itin faith spaces, for example.
It's a word that's sort of a.
It holds hands withdecision-making.
But it's quite different in myexperience and kind of in my
definition of the word, in thatdiscernment is a process where
decision making is more sort oflike an action or maybe a moment
(10:53):
in time.
I think decision making is muchmore compelling to us because
it's actionable, it kind of getsa result.
It gets us to an answer andwhile there is a process there,
when you're making a decision,you know you're kind of headed
somewhere.
Discernment is much morenuanced.
It's a formation processnecessary to grow our faith, to
(11:15):
teach us what it means to hearour inner selves, our inner
wisdom, to hear God, todetermine our yeses from our nos
, and it also draws us intocommunity.
I think discernment is a deeplycommunal practice.
It's about becoming awholehearted person, about
learning how to lead confidentlyfrom a space of unknowing.
And what does it look like tobegin to know?
(11:36):
I think all of this is part ofour formation mind, body and
spirit.
And I'll also say you know bodyand spirit.
And I'll also say you know,unfortunately, discernment can
be deeply inefficient.
It can take a lot of time andpatience, and that's why I think
a lot of us would prefer tothink of things as like well,
(11:56):
I'm making a decision, this isclear, it's active, it's final.
I would much rather have adecision to make than a move to
discern.
But when it comes to those bigmoments in life or influencing
change within a system orleaving a meaningful
identity-forming room that'sbeen a part of our lives for a
long time.
We're rarely confronted with asimple binary decision to make.
(12:20):
Instead, we have to enter intoa process of determining what is
going to be the most generativespace for me, for my family,
for my work life, whatever thequestion is, and so I think
discernment, in short, is reallya process of naming what we
know to be true that may nothave been true in the past.
Speaker 1 (12:44):
Wow, that's so comprehensive and so well said,
gives us a lot to think aboutand process through.
Well, with that, you recentlywe said you released your book,
and I love the subtitle as wellhow to Walk into a Room, the Art
of Knowing when to Stay andwhen to walk away, and I don't
think that there's enoughresources on this for the person
(13:06):
kind of learning aboutdiscernment for the first time
or approaching these harddecisions, and so I'm so
grateful that you brought itinto culture right now.
I think it's very timely, and Iwent through the book taking
notes on what to talk about, andI could have you here for a
whole series if we went throughall of them.
But when you're thinkingthrough who this book is for, I
(13:27):
would love for you to maybe giveus some examples of some things
that people might be needing towalk away from, along with some
things that they might need tobe walking towards.
Speaker 2 (13:41):
Well, the reality is we are always leaving various
rooms of our lives, and when Isay room, I just mean any type
of commitment, any type of placethat we have found to be
comfortable, or a family place,or a workplace, whatever it
might be but we're alwaysentering and leaving rooms, and
whether that is the room ofrelationship, personal or
(14:04):
professional, the room ofvocation maybe it's a job or a
volunteer opportunity that youmaybe sense has run its course,
we watch people in the public dothis all the time.
I mean, I think the Duke andDuchess of Sussex you know they
sort of left the royal.
You know their royal dutiessenior royal duties in 2020.
We watched that happen publicly.
We saw Simone Biles pull out ofthe Olympics on live TV in 2020
(14:27):
.
It was actually in 2021, but itwas the 2020 Olympics.
The Beatles broke up, if youwere here way back then.
There's a lot of public exitsthat we see happen, but what
we're missing is what happenedbehind closed doors, what led to
the process of those verypublic figures leaving those
rooms.
(14:47):
And then what we also oftendon't see is what rooms they
walk into.
But we all are familiar withthis in our own lives, and so we
all know what it is to leavesomething behind or to enter
into a new opportunity, a newrole, maybe a new role even in
the same job.
It could be a new, likebecoming a parent for the first
time, or a grandparent or a stepparent.
(15:09):
It could be just moving to anew house or a new neighborhood
or starting some type ofrelationship that you haven't
had before.
So we all know what it means,but a lot of us don't think
about that process, and so Ithink that there are times when
we are in the middle, maybestanding at the threshold
between rooms, and I found Iwanted to provide something, a
(15:32):
framework, a conversation for usto normalize this process of
leaving rooms and finding newones, because often what can
happen if we don't normalize itis maybe there's something that
you loved and you've prayed forto get there, maybe you even
paid a lot of money, you got adegree to get this particular
job, let's say.
And then time goes on and maybethings change in you or around
(15:56):
you and you start to question it.
What can happen is, if it's nota normalized like, hey, we're
human people and we're alwaysthe healthy human rhythm of life
is to leave rooms and find newones.
But if we don't have thatnormalized, what happens is we
start to maybe be resentful ofour environment, we feel guilty
for questioning it because otherpeople would kill for this
opportunity and here I amquestioning it and so sometimes
(16:19):
we stay past our time because wedon't have a process for
discerning whether or not it'stime for us to go.
And so that's really why Iwrote this book is because I had
wished I had that, but also Iwanted to provide it for other
people to know that, hey, thisis normal, and also know that
every new beginning, even if youwanted it and loved it and
(16:41):
hoped for it, it's going toprobably be preceded by some
kind of ending, and that mightbe hard or sad.
And here's some ways we canprocess.
Speaker 1 (16:48):
Wow, emily, so good, and honestly, I'm not yeah, I'm
not hearing this conversationother places, so it's so healthy
that it's coming to the table.
I was thinking as you weresaying that do you think that
this is I mean, it's definitelya generational change.
Like I'm thinking back to mygrandparents era and a very
common conversation is oh, Iworked at the same job for 40
(17:10):
years and there's almost thislike value on, like loyalty and
long-term commitment.
Do you know what I'm saying?
Like, do you see a change withthe generation?
Speaker 2 (17:21):
I do, and I think it also depends on your cultural
and social location, becausethere may be some families or
situations where the opposite isvalued.
It's all about the communalvalue, because some people like
if you come from anentrepreneurial family, for
example, the value might bestarting something new, it might
(17:41):
be taking risk, it might be notstaying in one place for too
long.
So it really comes down towhat's the narrative of your
familial, social, culturalsurroundings and based on that,
that's going to determine howyou feel about staying or
leaving.
And it's not just a decision,because the reality is staying
(18:01):
or leaving could be neutral, butwe attach meaning to it, we
attach sometimes morality to it,because it's not just about
making a decision to stay orleave.
It becomes about our identityAm I a stayer or am I a leaver?
Am I a quitter?
And once we bring that decisioninto our identity now it's like
(18:27):
, okay, now it's rooted andmixed up and tied to a whole
bunch of things beneath thesurface in our inner life, to
where that decision now canbecome that much more difficult
to discern.
Which is why I think we needthis process to walk ourselves
through.
Speaker 1 (18:40):
Wow, wow, wow.
So good, remind me, do you havea background in sociology?
I don't, but I love thequestion.
Yeah, cause I mean you, we.
I think we share that lovecause I don't either, but I just
I love people, I love cultures.
I love because I don't either,but I just I love people, I love
cultures.
I love understanding why peopledo what they do, and it sounds
like you do too.
Speaker 2 (18:59):
Well, I'm a, I'm a trained listener really.
I mean, that really is my.
My professional training is asa listener, and I say that not
as a counselor but as a first itwas sign language interpreting,
so it was really part of my joband I got nationally certified
for this was to translate onelanguage into another.
But so much about the deafculture and the deaf community
(19:20):
is paying attention to not justwhat's being said but what's
meant by being what's being said, and you had to interpret more.
You know, kind of like, theintention behind the words.
And so that was sort of my likeundergrad training, undergrad
training.
And then I became a spiritualdirector years later where I'm
also listening and holdingprayerful space for people in
their spiritual lives and what'scaught up to in their lives, in
(19:41):
and around them.
So it's another kind of way ofpaying attention to, like what's
happening beneath the surface.
What do we say, but what do wemean?
And so there is someprofessional training there
behind the scenes.
But I also think it is justlike a natural proclivity to
being endlessly fascinated bywhat makes people tick, and kind
of the stories that we tellourselves Thanks for that
wording from Brene Brown Likewhat is the story I'm telling
(20:03):
myself, and you know I'm alwayspaying attention to that, not
just in my own life, but in thelives of like literally everyone
around me.
Speaker 1 (20:13):
Wow.
Well, I am soaking it upbecause I feel like it's my
language too and I'm like it'svery refreshing.
Well, there is a very helpfultool that you include in the
book, and these are 10 questions, and remind me what audience
these 10 questions are for.
This is to those leaving orcoming.
Speaker 2 (20:30):
Okay, so thank you for asking that.
Listen, people have told me, asthey've read this book, they're
like I need to read it againbecause you ask so many
questions in this book and it'sso true, I hope they're helpful.
You know, I've thought aboutlike if I were just to pull we
could write.
I feel like it'd be like awhole half the book is just
questions.
So I have, you know, towardsthe beginning of the process of
(20:54):
discerning is it time to leaveor stay?
You know, is it time to leaveor maybe you discern it's time
to stay?
I do have sort of an official10 questions that you can ask
yourself when you're questioninga room.
But then towards the end of thebook, when you're you know, as
you've gone through this process, there's also a list of really
helpful 10 more questions tosort of ask yourself.
And this could be honestly.
It's it's framed up for asyou're entering into your next
(21:17):
thing, but it could truly beused for any, any kind of
situation that you're in,whether you're kind of
evaluating the rooms you're inor where am I now.
It's sort of like a place toget you present to what is true
right now.
So that's sort of what thesewould be helpful for, I think.
Speaker 1 (21:33):
Phenomenal.
I respond, my personalityresponds very well to guides
like this, and so you weresaying that maybe there's too
many.
I'm like no, no, no, there'snot enough.
Speaker 2 (21:41):
Like I could use all the questions.
Speaker 1 (21:45):
But if it would be okay with you, here's what I'm
picturing this next, these nextfew minutes, looking like I'm
going to read you one of thequestions that you wrote, like
from next few minutes, lookinglike I'm going to read you one
of the questions that you wrotefrom the book, and I would love
for you to process as much or aslittle as you would like,
(22:06):
expand on them as much or aslittle as you would like, just
to give people a better grasp onhow to use this as they're
entering their own rooms in thisnext season.
Sound good, that sounds great.
Okay.
So the first one is what ismine to do?
Speaker 2 (22:16):
This is a question we've probably seen floating
around the internet.
I first heard it from SuzanneStabile, who is an Enneagram
teacher, wisdom teacher, and shetalks about you know, kind of
her sort of way that she movesthrough the world is she tends
to do more than is hers to do,she tends to take on too much,
and so I think this is a greatquestion, though, even if that's
(22:39):
not your tendency orpersonality is to ask ourselves
always what is mine to do herein this moment, in this room, as
I'm entering this space?
What belongs to me and keepingin mind that as we walk into a
room, if we hold that questionwith us, it could keep us from
overfunctioning and that's aword that was new to me in the
(23:00):
last five or so years is it'skeep me from doing more than my
share of responsibilities here,because the reality is it is
possible to.
I think it's good to follow inother people's footsteps and
learn from them, but we don'twant to live someone else's life
, and so paying attention towhat is mine to do here in this
space can give some longevityinto the rooms that we enter
(23:24):
rather than burning us all theway out.
So good.
Speaker 1 (23:28):
So so good, Wow.
Well, the second is where orwith whom can I safely feel my
feelings?
Speaker 2 (23:36):
You know, as we mentioned before, when you leave
a room, a lot of emotion maycome up there, even if you were
happy to go, and that means thatwhen you enter a new one, new
emotions may rise up.
And so there has to be a placeas you kind of cross a threshold
into a new situation,environment, even if it's
celebratory, there has to be aplace, as you kind of cross a
threshold, into a new situation,environment, even if it's
(24:00):
celebratory, there has to be aplace where you are able to
safely feel your feelingswithout the person who is
holding space for you to,without them feeling the need to
fix it or to agenda you oranything like that.
Feelings are meant to be felt,and so it may not be appropriate
to share your feelings in everyroom that you enter, but I
think it's good to know and namein advance who are those safe
(24:21):
people who can walk with you,even if it's just metaphorically
, as you enter these rooms andconsider that your feelings
matter Obviously you're notgoing to make all your decisions
based on just feeling, but thatthey do have a seat at the
table, so having people or evena person in your life who you
can safely say how you reallyfeel about this new situation
(24:44):
you're walking into is so, soimportant kind of like
mentorship takeaways.
Speaker 1 (24:52):
For me early in marriage was a mentor saying
Katie, not every friend is meantto carry every role and I am an
extrovert, I love people, but Iwas also learning how to
process, like vulnerability,authenticity, and I just wanted
to process everything witheveryone.
I wanted everyone to beeverything.
It was a messy season.
(25:12):
Everything with everyone, Iwanted everyone to be everything
.
It was a messy season, but thatwas so helpful for me to manage
expectations, to preventrelationship burnout, everything
that you're talking about andso I think it's so important for
us to process that, to know whowe could safely feel your
feelings with, because that'snot everyone's safely feel your
feelings with, because that'snot everyone's, all of our
(25:36):
friends' jobs, right?
Speaker 2 (25:41):
That's right, yes, and we could never.
It's unfair to expect it to beso, and so I love that wisdom
that you added.
Speaker 1 (25:43):
I think that's really important.
Very, very good, wow, well, whois with me is number three.
Speaker 2 (25:49):
There is a thing about when you enter into new
space.
Oftentimes you're doing it byyourself.
You know if you start a new job, you're the new person in the
job, or if you're going to a newschool or if you move to a new
town.
So walking into a room as thenew person, by definition, often
means you're doing so alone,and so it's been helpful for me
to practice presence andawareness as I enter new rooms,
(26:12):
considering that, in reality,I'm actually bringing.
I am bringing some people withme.
I'm bringing all the people wholove me.
Though they may not be here,they can be with me in spirit.
I'm bringing even my ancestorswho have come before me.
That's not language I normallyuse, but I do think about.
Like I have a mother and I hada grandmother and a great
grandmother who thought life wasalways going to be the way it
(26:34):
was right then for them, andthen things changed and they now
are no longer here, but Icontinue on and it's because
they were here first.
So recognizing that I am partof a longer story and it's not a
perfect story, but I carry iton, and walking into this new
room is a part of that and, Ithink, also recognizing God who
(26:55):
walks into the room with me.
That God's promise to us is.
I find more comfort in thepromise of God that God is not,
that God is in control, but thatGod is with me, there's
presence there no matter whathappens.
And the reality is we reallynever have to walk into a room
alone.
Speaker 1 (27:11):
Goodness, never have to walk into a room alone.
Goodness, I think thatancestral is that the word?
Like awareness, because that'snot a term that I use often
either.
I think that's really profoundand almost empowering in a way.
Yeah, I think so too.
Yeah, wow, goodness.
Yeah, I like that.
I'm going to chew on that somemore after this.
But the next one is what do Ineed more of right now?
Speaker 2 (27:36):
There's no use faking it or making it sound good.
I think, just honestly, in themoment as we are in our spaces,
as we're being present, of justhonestly taking account what do
I need more of right now?
Do I need more?
Do I need more sleep?
Do I need more clarity?
Do I need some more time?
Do now, do I need more?
(27:59):
Do I need more sleep?
Do I need more clarity?
Do I need some more time?
Do I need more belonging?
Do I wish I was understood?
I don't.
I don't think we have to findthe energy all the time to make
our needs sound impressive or toeven find ways to meet them,
but just being aware thatthey're there.
And I say that because a lot oftimes when we are on the
opposite side, which is I'mdeciding to leave a room, we
often find ourselves with kindof a buildup of resentment or
(28:20):
frustration that lives on thetop and we're like I need to get
out of this place because I'mso tired or because everything's
the worst.
It's because we don't askourselves what do I need more of
right now?
Often enough, and because ofthat things can build up, I
think, and kind of take up spacein our inner life and, I think,
asking yourself this questionwhile we may not always be able
(28:42):
to get the more that we want,the reality is you might want it
, and so it's really good to payattention to those desires that
live beneath the surface,because knowing they're there
helps us live more authenticallyin the moment and I and for me
at least it keeps me from kindof building up that resentment
or that like I'm trying to beeverything for everyone else and
no one's here for me, you know,just recognizing wait, what do
(29:05):
I need right now?
And just being aware of that.
Speaker 1 (29:07):
That's really good.
As we're going into this newyear, my husband, colby and I
were processing a lot and we'vedone so.
We transitioned back fromThailand to the States, launched
a small business, went throughCOVID, lots of seasons that
we've needed to like, processand work through and seeking out
mentorship and just healing andall of that stuff, and we said
at the beginning of this yearwe're like this year we actually
(29:29):
need a little less of that anda little more fun, and that was
really profound to us because weare able to more intentionally
pick the rooms that we're goingthrough this year with that kind
of in mind, and so I canunderstand that and I think a
lot of people will be able totoo.
That's good, beautiful, okay,what is?
(29:50):
Oh, there we go.
What is the best thing that canhappen here?
So good.
Speaker 2 (29:55):
Well, my default is usually the opposite, is to, as
I start something new is, I'llkind of go to the opposite end,
which is what is the worst thingthat might happen here?
But to ask what is the bestthing that could happen here is
making a practice to considerthat the best thing is possible,
that what if it all does workout?
Like what a mind, what awonderful mind.
(30:17):
Experiment to practice hopefulthings in every room that we
enter, and this allows us tosort of move beneath the banner
of a hopeful vision rather thantrying to move underneath the
burden of potential catastrophe,which is really no way to live.
Speaker 1 (30:34):
Can you say that part again, the banner of potential
catastrophe, which is really noway to live Can you say that
part again, the banner of what?
Speaker 2 (30:40):
Do you remember what you said?
Yeah, just sort of livingbeneath living and learning to
move beneath the banner of ahopeful vision of the space that
you're in, rather than ifyou're asking yourself what's
the worst thing that can happenall the time.
You're sort of livingunderneath the burden of
potential catastrophe at everymoment, at every turn.
And I don't know about you, butI don't come up with my best
(31:01):
ideas or have my most trustingrelationships if I'm constantly
considering what's the worstthing that might happen.
Speaker 1 (31:08):
Yes, yeah, I love that visual and I love how
that's said.
The next one what have I hadtoo much of?
Speaker 2 (31:16):
lately.
Well, I love that you just kindof answered this one, because I
think that was such a greatexample of that.
Just the question alone couldhelp us set boundaries in the
rooms of our lives and toclarify if a particular room was
good for us.
Today, For example, I justlived through this and this is
kind of a silly example, youknow, if I mean I just lived
through this in and this is kindof a silly example, but we have
several birthdays right aroundChristmas.
(31:38):
So we have Christmas and thenNew Year's and then we have, you
know, my twins birthday andthen a couple other family
members birthdays.
And let me tell you what, bylike January the fourth, I was
like I have had too muchcelebration.
I cannot go to one more party,I cannot make one more toast,
and I mean my body was tellingme like you need like a piece of
bread and like some soup and along nap.
(32:00):
Just, you know, your body kindof tells you when you've had too
much of something.
But I think the same can betrue when it comes to
environments and decisions, thatknowing like just you know, the
experience of life tells mewe've been a bit too serious or
the opposite.
We've been celebrating a littlebit too much and I need some
like stability.
So asking what I've had toomuch of lately, I think can be a
(32:21):
helpful, informative question.
Speaker 1 (32:23):
Wow, really good.
I was giggling a little bitbecause I was.
I can understand that.
Do you know that meme?
And I shouldn't make fun ofthis lady, but the meme went so
viral.
It was that woman who wasgetting ready for a blizzard and
they said what's your plan forthe blizzard?
And she said I'm going to eatsome soup and dessert and get
all fat and sassy.
Do you know what I'm talkingabout?
(32:47):
No, I haven't seen that one.
It's so sweet.
She's an older lady who justplanned on eating dessert and
bread and being all sassy duringthe storm and I kind of got
that sweet visual Okay so theother one is what bothers me
most?
Speaker 2 (33:01):
A lot of us, depending on you, know again
that social, family, cultural,location, the question, what
bothers you might not be onethat you tend to ask yourself
very often.
In fact, some of us probablytry to avoid admitting what's
bothering us.
But I do think that knowing andnaming what bothers us can be
really powerful, because reallyany meaningful change we've ever
(33:21):
made in our lives probablystarted by us being bothered.
And even small changes too,Like I mean, I'm bothered that
my hair's too long.
I'm going to get a haircut, youknow, even something as small
as that goes like it does startwith being bothered or
frustrated and so askingourselves, like what bothers me
the most?
That's one to pay attention to,because the reality is there
(33:42):
might be 10 things that botheryou in this new space that
you're entering.
But if there's one that bothersyou the most, that's one that
maybe you can take action on,because we can't take action on
everything, but some of thethings that bother us are things
that could be a clue to ournext right thing.
And sometimes things bother usbecause we are uniquely made and
designed and even like have aunique proclivity towards
(34:05):
impacting meaningful change inan area.
So you'll see a lot of timesyou know the things that break
our hearts, the news storiesthat kind of keep us up at night
.
A lot of times we can feelhelpless because we feel like
there's nothing I can do tochange this.
But if you start to get to thatplace where you feel bothered
by something, pay attention,because that's a really powerful
(34:27):
motivator toward asking myselfthat question what is mine to do
here?
And what is just one next rightthing I can do within my own
sense of agency to impact changein this area?
Speaker 1 (34:42):
I think it's really important to give people the
invitation to make room for that.
I've really never processedthat and wow, that's really good
.
I mean, yeah, it's very commonto be told like well, everything
bothers you, or um, I don'tknow, to almost feel guilty.
I guess that's what I'm gettingat, to feel like it's a
negative, like a negativequality yeah.
(35:04):
That's yeah, that's really good, that's really good.
So the thing that bothers memost, wow.
The next one is what do I haveto offer?
Speaker 2 (35:17):
I think presence matters a lot here, and I think
a lot of us forget that we havesomething to offer in the form
of the person who we are, notjust what we can do for
everybody.
Speaker 1 (35:29):
Wow.
Speaker 2 (35:29):
So, knowing and naming what you have to offer in
the form of your wisdom, yourclarity, the joy you bring, the
discern, naming that as a thing,as something important, can
help us, helps me show up morefully in the room.
Wow, wow, wow, wow.
The last two.
(36:18):
Last but certainly not leastbut what needs undoing?
Well, I think a lot of timesagain, we ask the opposite is
what needs doing?
But a lot of times, somethingneeds to be undone.
And when we're faced withconfusion or tragedy, chaos,
difficulty, our first questionis often well, we got to do
something about it.
But I think and that might betrue, but I think we also need
(36:39):
to consider is there anythinghere that needs to first be
undone?
And this might be true when itcomes to systems or groups or
the way things have always beendone.
You know, you hear that a lot.
Well, this is how we've alwaysdone it.
Well, what might need to beundone in order for the system
to be more just, to be moreinclusive, to be more of
(37:02):
something that it can't be if itcontinues to go the way it's
always gone?
Speaker 1 (37:06):
Wow, I remember when I first started writing, first
started processing all of this,I called my blog the sweet
unraveling.
And and people would laugh at me.
They're like, katie, unravelingis a bad thing.
Are you sure that's the wordyou want to use?
I'm like, oh, I am very surethis is exactly the terminology
I'm going for, um, because itwasn't unraveling and it was
(37:31):
sweet, you know.
Yeah, and there were some verysignificant things that needed
to be undone in order for growth, in order for health, in order
for all of this on the otherside, in order to if we're
talking about it in this contextenter new opportunities.
Well, and so it's very sweetfor me to read that, because I
(37:53):
do get it.
I do get it, and I think it'san important process that not
many of us understand.
Hmm, make space for, yeah, it'sgood.
Well, lastly, who can I ask forhelp?
Speaker 2 (38:09):
This one's a good reminder that the discernment
process is a communal one, andthere's something really
profound and joyful about beinghuman together.
So, if we want to do our goodwork for the long haul and when
I say good work I mean bothvocation, but also the work of
building a family and being partof a community and doing good
(38:31):
in the world there's longevitythere that we want to be true,
and so this work of love, ofactivism, of ministry, we can't
do this alone, and so we need topay attention to those people
who are bothered by the samethings.
We're bothered by people we canlink arms with in order to
impact change, and so I thinkthat's who.
(38:52):
Can I ask for help?
That's an important question tohave kind of in our arsenal of
questions that we are askingwhen it comes to the spaces that
we're entering.
Speaker 1 (39:01):
Really good, I love that these are in the book.
Really good, I love that theseare in the book.
(39:23):
But as I'm looking at thesequestions on my notes, I'm like
man, this would be a great thingto print and tape into a
planner on your mirror.
It's just, they're goodprocessing questions, because I
don't see these things asquestions that are processed
like instantly.
It's almost like a, it's aprocess, right, it's a big time
to chew through them and to landon answers, the whole
discernment concepts that we'retalking about.
So they are in the book, thoughfor listeners who are wanting to
chew through them more havingto make the types of decisions
(39:43):
of what rooms to enter and toleave, hard conversations, the
brink of change, all of that.
And I could think of people inmy life too who have felt that
maybe they can't trustthemselves in making these
decisions or maybe, beyond that,that they'll make the wrong
decision.
And you talk a lot about theconcept of being your own friend
, building trust with yourselfin the process of deciding these
(40:07):
next steps.
So I would love to know whatyou say to the person who maybe
feels frozen or needs to developthat.
I'll call it a reckoning withthemselves in this process.
Speaker 2 (40:20):
It's a beautiful question.
It's one I have a lot ofcompassion for.
I think the first thing I wouldprobably ask this person is to
see if they could name whatthey're afraid of, or at least
one thing they might be afraidof.
From there I might see ifthere's just one next right
thing they feel comfortabledoing.
Several authors that I haveread and admire.
(40:44):
One is Marie Forleo and theother is a new author.
Her name is Tracy G.
She has a book releasing inJanuary called the Magic of
Knowing what you Want, but theyboth talk about the importance
of how action leads to clarityand how we can't.
I think it's Tracy who says youcan't answer a.
(41:05):
How does she say it?
It's basically how you can'tanswer a doing question.
Hold on, let me look it up sowe can cut this out right.
You can edit yeah, yeah, ofcourse.
Yeah, because it's worthfinding the actual quote.
You can't answer a.
How does she say this about aquestion?
Can't answer a doing you can't.
(41:27):
Oh, I know what it is.
Okay, I think it's Tracy whosays you can't think your way
through a doing question, andthat has been so helpful for me,
because I think the person whofeels frozen, is working really
hard to solve the problem oftheir decision in their head.
(41:47):
But clarity comes.
And Marie Forleo says you can'trush clarity, which means we
can't force it to come beforeit's ready.
But she also says, on the flipside of that, clarity comes from
action, not thought.
So I quote her a lot, and nowI'm adding Tracy into the mix,
because this idea of claritycoming from action can be deeply
satisfying after we move, butit can be deeply terrifying
(42:11):
before we move because we don'tknow what's going to happen on
the other side.
But I can speak from experience, as someone who I am doing
repressed, like I would muchrather.
I feel my way through the worldand I can think my way through
the world, but when it comes toaction, that is my last resort.
So I know of that which I speak.
But I think, if we can, insteadof thinking about making big
(42:34):
moves, there is a lot of powerin small moves and so thinking
that, okay, what is just onenext right thing I can do in the
direction that I think I wantto go, next right thing I can do
in the direction that I think Iwant to go, recognizing that
the emphasis isn't on the wordright, but on the word next,
what is just one next thing youcan do and you don't have to
(42:57):
start or end all at once, andthat's why the discernment
process is one that I love tothink about, rather than the
decision-making process, becausedecision feels it's not, but we
often kind of interpret it asif it's binary, like I'm going
to do this and now it's just onestep.
But actually most decisions,especially big ones, are many,
(43:17):
many, many small moves over aperiod of maybe even a long time
.
So if someone's feeling frozen,I think that in a long, long
answer to say, I think that'swhat I would say is recognizing
the power of small moves.
But a small move is better thanno move at all.
Speaker 1 (43:35):
Wow.
Well, to the person listeningtoday who's thinking, wow, I
would love to really grow inthis.
I would love to have someonewalk through this with me,
whether it's a mentor, aspiritual director Well, kind of
answering the question, but I'dlove to hear from you as well
who is the type of person thatmaybe they should seek out.
How can they seek them out?
(43:56):
I guess, walk them through thata little bit.
Speaker 2 (44:00):
Well, I do think that remembering we can be this
person for ourselves is reallyimportant and that's why I wrote
the book is I hope that thebook can help you be that person
for yourself.
But I also think we need eachother, and so one of the things
my husband and I did when thiswas back in 2013, when he had
been a pastor for 12 years andreally felt led out of that role
(44:24):
, that official role kind of, inthe church, but wasn't sure
what was next.
So what we did was we gathereda group of what we called
co-listeners, and they werepeople in our lives who knew us
really well, who were kind ofyes, and people.
They weren't going to shut usdown, they were going to kind of
hear us and then maybe offersomething in a very improv way.
They were people who knew howto ask the second and third
(44:47):
question, so they didn't justwant to hear what we had to say
and then give us an answer, butthey knew how to hold that kind
of open space for us to be ableto talk, and then they could ask
follow-up questions and thenfollow-up questions of the
follow-up questions, and thatwas really important to us.
So we called them co-listeners.
(45:14):
Years later I learned that thisis actually.
There's actually a thing amongthe Religious Society of Friends
, otherwise known as the Quakers, and they have this process
kind of perfected and that'ssomething that we have benefited
from, as we have participatedin and worshipped in a Quaker
community for the last severalyears.
But they call this a clearnesscommittee, where you kind of
bring this just like.
It's very much similar to whatI just shared, but we did it
informally and didn't know itwas like a thing, but later
(45:35):
learned it was a thing and sothat was really really beautiful
.
But the same way, the clearnesscommunity listens and they ask
questions and they let you kindof talk your way all the way out
and then are not afraid ofsilence in community, which I
think is really powerful.
So I think, just avoid thepeople who you there might be.
(45:57):
Here's what I'll say.
There might be people in yourlife who you think you ought to
be able to trust or you thinkyou ought to ask for their
opinion when it comes towhatever this decision you're
making.
But for whatever reason, youhave a sense you have some type
of hesitation and I wouldencourage you to listen to that
hesitation that you get to talkto people who you have full
(46:23):
confidence as best as you knowhow to trust them, and that it's
okay.
If there's a certain person orgroup of someone's who, just
with this particular decision,don't quite make the cut, that's
okay.
Speaker 1 (46:38):
Incredible.
So many different ways that wecould take this Wherever you're
at listener.
Oh my gosh Words are a littlehard sometimes.
Oh my gosh Words are a littlehard Words are hard.
Words are hard.
Coffee is good, but I need moreof it.
So I guess what I'm saying iswherever you're at listeners
like whether you're looking toleave a room, walk into a room,
(47:01):
maybe helping someone goingthrough this process there's
really something for all of usto process in this.
So much more in the book.
I would encourage all of youguys to run and get your copy
available for delivery right now, which is always a treat.
Emily, I'd love to hear fromyou what maybe didn't we cover
(47:22):
that you would like people toknow about the book.
Speaker 2 (47:28):
Oh, you know, I didn't expect that question.
Speaker 1 (47:31):
Sorry, you could skip it if you'd like.
Speaker 2 (47:33):
No, I think it's fine .
A couple things I would say.
One is anybody who has thisbook.
I have a free offering foreverybody who has the book.
In the back there's a QR codethat you can scan with your
phone and it takes you directlyto the Quiet Collection app,
which is an app that we'vedeveloped, and inside that it
(47:54):
will basically you'll follow theprocess, you'll put your email
in, blah blah blah and you willget a special code to download a
collection of blessings forhellos and goodbyes that we have
created specifically forreaders of this book, because I
assume that anybody who has theneed to pick this book up,
they're most likely saying bothhellos and goodbyes, so I
(48:16):
created a series of blessingsthat you can listen to.
There's also transcripts if youprefer to read them, and that's
something that's just a lot ofpeople don't know about, but
it's just there for the readerand it's free, and so I like to
mention that.
But again, that's called the.
It's a collection of blessingsfor hellos and goodbyes, and so
that's, again, just scanned inthe back of the book, available
for anyone who has it.
Speaker 1 (48:38):
What an incredible gift.
I actually didn't get to thatpoint, so I'm going to have to
do that myself, but we end eachof our conversations with the
same three questions for all ofour guests, and I'd love to hear
your answers as well as we getto know you.
The first one is something thatyou have eaten recently and
loved.
Speaker 2 (48:55):
Oh gosh.
Okay, so I make this.
It's kind of a Panera dupe soup.
It's a chicken and wild ricesoup, that the one that you can
get at Panera, but you can makeit at home too, and I forgot
about it for this whole seasonuntil recently, and I just made
it this weekend and I was sohappy because it's delicious
(49:15):
I've actually, I can't believeit.
Speaker 1 (49:17):
I've never got, I've never ordered that one.
Oh it's so good.
Speaker 2 (49:20):
I mean it's good at panera, but also you can make it
at home.
So I'm here to tell you that'samazing.
Speaker 1 (49:25):
That's great.
Speaker 2 (49:30):
Okay, something you have found to be beautiful
lately, one of my favoritethings to do lately is I get up
in the morning.
It's this time of year, it'sbefore the sun comes up, because
the sun comes up later, so it'seasier and I sit in the corner
of my sunroom office and itfaces east, and one of the most
beautiful parts of my day iswhen that sun begins to come up
(49:50):
over the horizon.
Of course, I can't see the sun,I just see the sky changing and
it's so beautiful and I'malways so amazed by the reality
that this happens every singleday, and every day it's just as
beautiful.
It's like it never gets old.
Speaker 1 (50:05):
Goodness, that's really sweet.
As you were saying that, I waslike I'm directionally
challenged, really bad, and I'mlike I'm thinking in my house.
I'm like what direction is eastin my house?
It's awful, oh goodness.
Okay, and a gathering.
Actually, we switched up ourquestions.
(50:25):
What one do I want to ask you?
If you're not prepared for thisone, let me know and we could
switch back.
But our new last question issomething random you've
discovered recently that youthink everyone should know about
.
I've been loving hearing theseanswers.
It's fun.
Yeah, an Amazon purchase aNetflix show, anything random
like that.
Speaker 2 (50:47):
Okay, let me think for a second.
Speaker 1 (50:49):
I'm happy to answer it.
Speaker 2 (50:51):
Okay, let me look around, because there are so
many things that it could beOkay.
Well, this is maybe noteveryone should know about, but
anybody who has to use yourphone for the internet in any
(51:13):
way, like if you ever have tomake a video, or like I often
and you know, working online anddoing things online, I often
have to make videos.
I found this like dumb phonething I don't even know if it's
called.
This is terrible.
It's got like suctions on theback of it.
You just stick it to your phoneand then your phone will stick
(51:33):
to almost any surface so you canjust put it up anywhere, like
if you, even if you just like ifyou want to show something to
people, you just stick yourphone to the wall and there it
is.
But I found it at Target and itwas just like on the end cap.
(51:54):
It was, I think, 10 bucks I puton my kids' stockings and it's
been so dumb.
But also kind of fun because Ifeel like now I'm not hindered,
like when my you know, when Ineed to make a video for
something, I don't have to likeprop my phone up on 10 books and
make sure it doesn't fall over.
It's like I can just stick itto the window and all is well.
Speaker 1 (52:06):
I love that.
I've been trying to make thatprocess easier on my end too,
and I don't own one yet, sothat's, that's good.
I'll look into that.
And you were talking aboutstocking stuffers too, and I was
just laughing that you werecalling it dumb because it's not
done dumb, but I get whatyou're saying.
Speaker 2 (52:20):
It's like well it's like it feels like it should be
like there should be somethingmore profound or cool.
Speaker 1 (52:26):
Well, I was making Wesley's stocking and he's only
like a year and a half, justabout and I wanted everything to
be really intentional and I wasshowing my husband what I got
and he pulled out this one superrandom thing.
He's like what the heck is this?
I was like Colb I needed onedumb one dumb thing to add to
the stocking.
That's good.
So it was some just like cheesylittle thing to add.
(52:47):
So that's fun, that's reallyfun.
Speaker 2 (52:50):
Well, I'm going to attach one of those and it's
like a.
It's like a grippy, I don'tknow what it's called Like.
It's like a grippy or a suctionmount type of thing.
That's what it is.
You can probably picture.
Speaker 1 (53:00):
I could definitely like think of, like.
I've seen influencers use themand so I could picture what
you're talking about.
I'll link one in the show notesfor anyone else that might be
interested.
Um, I'm going to reference, um,maybe Tracy Chee's book too, um
, uh, in the show notes, andthen of course, yours, uh, that
everyone can get their copy of.
Is there a place that's betterfor people to order than others?
(53:20):
That maybe supports you more?
Speaker 2 (53:22):
that you want to send them to buy it.
No, not really.
Speaker 1 (53:25):
No, anywhere Okay.
So you guys can purchase itwherever books are sold.
Um, and where do you wantpeople to follow along website
and handles?
Where can they find you?
Speaker 2 (53:35):
Oh yeah, you can find me basically it's Emily P
Freeman everywhere.
Website Instagram I've beenplaying on blue sky lately, Um,
but you know that's not reallythe place, so would say
instagram and um and the websiteokay, what is blue sky amelie?
that's new to me yeah, it's likeum instead of twitter, slash x,
(53:55):
okay, instead of threads.
It's like it's like a newversion of that called blue sky
um, but it's not owned by metaor elon or any of any of those
it's.
I don't know who the owner is,but it's someone, so it's sort
of like.
I don't know that a ton ofpeople are there yet, but there
are a few people who I follow onother places who have moved
(54:17):
over there and seem to like itso far, but it's new, so who
knows, who knows what chaosmight ensue there eventually.
Speaker 1 (54:24):
Always something new, right To keep up with, but
that's right.
Thank you so much, emily.
This was so rich, so useful.
I picture this episode beingshared with people in our
circles that are going throughseasons that could use this kind
of wisdom and direction on nextsteps.
So thank you for leadingauthentically and bring this
book out into the world.
(54:44):
We appreciate you Absolutely.
Thanks for having me, of course.
Well, guys, thank you so muchand we will see you next week.
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