2023 RYDER CUP REACTION

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:06):
Hello and welcome to the first edition of the Making
the Turn podcast featuring theDouch and Double D, where we
talk all things golf and how itrelates to golfers out there in
this space, trying to figure outhow they can possibly play a
better golf.
And man, are we excited to havethis first episode because it's
coming right on the heels, noteven an hour removed from the

(00:29):
finish of this edition of ourRyder Cup, where we saw that the
Europeans were able to makegood and finish off the
Americans on day three, whichlooked pretty good and thorough
from the beginning, and thescore probably got a little
closer than they would haveliked, but they definitely saw
it through.
So, without further ado, let'stalk to my partner out there,
the man with the plan, the guyover in the UK and absolutely

(00:53):
one of my favorite writers onthe entire planet, mr Dan Davies
, or as I like to call him,double D, double D, what's going
on?

Speaker 2 (00:59):
Well, douch, I'm emotionally strung out after
that final day of the Ryder Cup.
I mean, it always does that toyou, doesn't it?
I mean, whatever the outcome,it just has this way of putting
you through the emotional ringer.
And as a fan of Team Europe andas somebody who's been watching
these matches since the mid toearly 80s, that was you know,

(01:20):
even though the score at the end16.5, 11.5 to Europe, which I
think reflected the you know,the overall play it was really
tight on the last day, it wasnerve-wracking and at points,
like it always is on the Sundaysingles, there were points where
you think this is going to,this is, this is getting away
from Team Europe.
But you know, in the end theycame through and I think they

(01:42):
were very, very worthy winnersin the end.
And I think that Luke Donalddid a fantastic job as captain.
I mean, I think he I do thinkhe outclassed Zach Johnson as
captain from sort of day one,from the get-go.

Speaker 1 (01:53):
I don't think there's any dispute about that, which
is really concerning, because Idon't understand how the
European team had to make thechange in captaincy due to the
events with Henrik Stinsonjoining Liv and them taking that
away from him.
But you know, it should havebeen Europe.
That felt like maybe they werea little scrambling, but it
never felt like they weren'tprepared for what was in front

(02:16):
of them and what they needed todo.

Speaker 2 (02:18):
Yeah, I think they definitely had a plan, didn't
they?
I mean, I think in EduardoMolinari, they had a guy who you
know, as Luke said, puttogether a stats packet for each
of the players.
They had a definite plan thatwas based around each of the
players strengths, around howthe course was set up.
You know, that course wasdesigned specifically for the
Ryder Cup, for the 2023 RyderCup, and they set it up in a way

(02:39):
that played into the strengthsof Team Europe.
And you're right, you know LukeDonald had much less of a run
in than Zach Johnson did, but Ithink, since you know, from day
one, from the moment he wasappointed, he had a touch of
class about him.
He looked like he was a leaderwho had sort of you know he was
considered, he was intelligenthe was, he made good choices

(03:00):
throughout and I think he wasn'toverly emotional as well in the
heat of the battle, which Ithink was important.
And I think clearly you knowyou see the reaction at the end
of all the players that they hada huge amount of respect for
him and that's massivelyimportant as a captain.

Speaker 1 (03:14):
But I think he took kind of his playing career right
into his captaincy right interms of you know a lot of
people forget but there was apoint in time where Luke was the
number one player in the worldand you know, honestly, has
never been even at tour averagein his length.
So you know, luke has alwayskind of been in this underdog
role and he's kind of bet onhimself, like he alluded to in

(03:35):
the interview right after theywent official.
But you know, he just kind ofit seemed like really embraced
that underdog role.
And I think generally when yousee these quote unquote upsets
where on paper it doesn't looklike it should be much of a
match, but when you see thesethings happen, generally the
team that you know doesn't havethe all-stars they really have

(03:55):
to think about how they're goingto beat all of that talent
right.
They have to outsmart them,they have to be tricky.
It's kind of like going out andplaying on a Sunday afternoon
and you obviously are hitting itway better than the 85 year old
gentleman that you're playingwith, but he just kind of keeps
dinking it down the fairway andpopping it on the green and
rolling some putts in.
That guy is tough to beat andit wears you out and on paper

(04:17):
you should beat that guy prettyhandily, yet he finds a way to
kind of outsmart you and usesome of that veteran wisdom.
And I think that that's reallywhat you saw, with the Molinari
brothers really coming maybe alittle bit more so in the
spotlight, because I think, asan American, a lot of Americans
had forgotten about theMolinari's because they've been
out of the spotlight as playersfor a little while.

Speaker 2 (04:38):
Yeah, I mean Edward.
And Molinari was a winningrider-cut player.
I mean he had the experience ofbeing there.
And you're right about LukeDonald.
I mean Luke Donald was probablythe last number one who wasn't
a bomber.
You know he was a player whodid not like you say, he was not
even anywhere near the top ofthe driving averages, but a
player who played to hisstrengths at a brilliant short
game was a great iron player.
It was a fantastic putter.

(04:59):
I mean, really for a playerlike him to go to number one in
the modern era was a superlativeachievement.
And I think you're right, he didtake that strategy, that
ability to think around the gamein a different way than you
know, a multi-dimensional way.
He brought that into hiscaptaincy and I think you know,
with the Molinari brothers,particularly Eduardo, who you

(05:20):
know is a is a golf dated guruwho's looking for the edge all
the time.
But you know the US also hadaccess to those sorts of people.
They had Scout consulting whoworked with them for the last
two or three rider cups.
You know they had a lot of thesame sort of insight.

Speaker 1 (05:36):
But it just seems that to me that it's not
embraced, it falls on deaf ears.
And that's that's where my bonecomes into play with the
captaincy and generally justkind of you know the PGA is kind
of, you know, tried and truemotto of hey, we got the best
players and we think we're thebest, so we'll just throw it out
there.
And you know, sunday afternoonthey'll make it tight because,

(05:59):
you know, in the singles it getsa lot more difficult for a
David vs Goliath scenario tooccur.
But when we get out there andfour balls and four some, you
know, I think that obviously yousee that Americans aren't used
to playing in that format andobviously Team Europe always has
an advantage there.
So I just think it's reallyblindingly absurd at how

(06:20):
traditional we tend to be withhow we send our teams to the
rider cup and we generally areill-prepared.
The guys, a lot of the guys,hadn't played in five weeks.
And then you look at a lot ofthe picks and man, you know if,
a couple of those things, if youknow the big one, obviously the
, the final dagger was Rickyhitting driver into the middle

(06:41):
of the pond.
But you know if, if we had youknow a few different players
down the stretch.
That could have been spicy likethat could have been really
spicy double.

Speaker 2 (06:53):
D.
Yeah, man, cameron Young isobviously the the, the one that
people are going to bring upbecause he's a brilliant driver.

Speaker 1 (06:59):
We're not going to talk about Cameron Young.
We're going to forget about thefact that we could have
potentially had Dustin Johnsonout there.
We could have potentially hadBryson D Shambow out there like
okay it comes down to a drivablepar four and Bryson D Shambow
sitting at home and wasn't evengiven a phone call.
Give me a break.

Speaker 2 (07:15):
There's three drive three drivable par fours on
Marcos Simone and they pushed upthe fifth, I think it was, to
make it drivable.
So, yeah, and Europe knew thatthe Americans were better with
their wedge game, so they madethose, those, those par fours,
drivable and actually Europe hada really good record.
I mean, strangely, spieth wasthe one who actually had the
highest birdie percentage, wentgoing for a green on a drivable

(07:38):
par four, but you know, spiethonly really brought it on the
last day, but it was, it was, itwas odd, I mean, I think it was
.
I think Alain Bells wereringing for America, team
America, from that very illconsidered press conference, as
Zach Johnson gave, where I don'tlike the fact that the
captain's being indignant.

Speaker 1 (07:56):
You know and that's the word that stands out to me I
know that there's a lot ofpeople you know that you, for
example, you are an actualjournalist, so you have to watch
these things and pay attention.
But in the modern age a lot ofus are clicky and we like to
read the headlines and move on.
But as somebody who actuallywatched all the matches and woke
up extra early here in theUnited States and then would

(08:16):
actually watch the pressconferences and read the
clippings, you know, the oneword that I would use about
Captain Johnson is he had a veryindignant attitude towards the
press and towards any kind ofquestioning of his captaincy.
And I'm here to tell you thatwhen you are a captain who is
trying to win something, youshould be taking in all, all,

(08:37):
all information from every angleand trying to use that to come
up within a competitiveadvantage.
And for him to kind of beindignant and act like nobody
has a right to question himbecause he's the captain, I just
think that's a farce, yeah well, I think the interesting thing
he was asked about the analyticswasn't he?

Speaker 2 (08:53):
he was asked about, you know, what was America going
to do to counter, you know theimpact of Dodo Molinari had on
the the European side.
And you know the Europeans were, from the outset, going to be
very analytics driven.
They were going to look atwhere they could find the edge
because obviously the worldrankings, you know, proved that
the Americans had the strongestside, I mean actually in terms
of, in terms of form, coming inEurope, had the best three

(09:16):
players in, you know, inHoughton sorry, in Hovland
Houghton and you know McElroythey were, you know they were on
form coming in and Sean Rahmwas just unbelievable, like
every writer.
Yeah, I mean Rahm was having a,was struggling a little bit
before he came into Wentworthand then he played beautifully
at Wentworth.
But all 12 players played inthe BMW PGA championship at

(09:37):
Wentworth, which is obviouslythe European tour, a DP World
Tours marquee event.
They were there, they weretournament sharp and there were
only three members of the teamUSA who had actually played
since the tour championshipwhich you alluded to earlier.
I mean, they just can't betournament ready.
Whatever you know Wyndham Clarkis saying about being rested
and all that sort of stuff, youhave to be tournament sharp, you

(09:58):
have to be sort of absolutelyready to take that on the nerve
endings kind of have to besinged a little bit.

Speaker 1 (10:03):
You know what I mean.
Like if you I always tell peopleyou know when you're a tour
player, like the grief that youtake is unreal because every fan
that that paid their way isgoing to say something to you at
some point during the round andit's.
It's just like you know, yournerve endings are constantly
kind of getting teased and burntand you almost kind of have to
develop a little bit of thatsinge at the end of those things

(10:26):
to kind of put those blinderson and be ready to go into that
octagon.
And when you kind of move outof that bubble for a little bit,
those nerve endings grow backand you're, you're well rested.
But to your point, like you'realso very sensitive because you
haven't really been out there ina little bit and you kind of
forgot a little bit.
And to your point, man, I thinkplaying in is just critical.

(10:46):
I think that that's really notnecessarily that you know they
should be playing three or fourweeks straight coming in,
nothing like that, obviously.
But you know, I think you knowit's five weeks since your last
competitive round.
I think that's probably a bitof a stretch.

Speaker 2 (10:59):
Yeah and you know, I think Max Homer and Justin
Thomas played at the Fortinet,which is, you know, a very
relaxed Stop on the PGA tour.
It's not the sort of hightension, hydrama, big stakes of
a lot of other tournaments,whereas, you know, these guys
have played at Wentworth for thebiggest title on the European
tour and all 12 of them areplayed and they actually played.
They've been grouped togetherso that this plan was clearly in

(11:22):
place about getting these guys,getting these guys bonded.
All 12 of them went out toMarco Simone two weeks before
the Ryder Cup or just before theBMW PGA.
You know, any nine of the 12from Team America went out to
Marco Simone.
You know.
You know reasons have been givenfor that.
But you know, as Paul McGinley,who is regarded as being one of

(11:42):
the best-prepared EuropeanRyder Cup captain, said, you
know you've got to take thisseriously, you've got to explore
every edge you can get.
And it seemed to me now, andthe thing that, as I keep coming
back to, when Zach Johnson wasasked about what role analytics,
what role performance data, wasgoing to play in his captaincy,
he just got no answer.

Speaker 1 (12:00):
Yeah, no answer.

Speaker 2 (12:01):
Yeah, so it was just like.
You know, it's too complicatedfor me to be able to describe it
to you so well, why don't youtry?

Speaker 1 (12:09):
Yeah, I just, I really find it.
It's difficult.
Like you know, they theyconstantly talk about heart.
You know, like that's the bigtagline for the Ryder Cup.
It means more you representyour country, you represent your
hometown, you represent thestreet you grew up with and the
people who have been in yourlife.
And that is all true.
And and that has never rungmore true to me than being at

(12:32):
the Ryder Cup at WhistlingStraits and watching Shane Lowry
.
After they had just taken athumping by the Americans, he
stayed in his match and grindedit out and on 18, made a putt,
and I cannot remember who tobeat.
But just to see the reactionfrom Shane and the people with
him, even though they had justtaken an absolute drubbing, I
mean it shows you what it meansto the Europeans to win a point

(12:53):
and to say that they have awinning record in the Ryder Cup.
I mean it truly is special.
But I really find it difficultto believe that.
It all comes down to heart inthis thing.
And don't get me wrong, I thinkthat heart is a big part of it
and I think, when it comes tothe Ryder Cup and dealing with
the emotions is an additionalpiece.
But you can't tell me it's allabout the heart.

(13:15):
There has to be substance thereto double D, like you've got to
have a plan and then go afterthe heart.
I mean, here's my.

Speaker 2 (13:23):
Look at, look at what happened in the foursome's.
I mean, that's the perfect casein point is the foursome's
Europe 171, you know, and thefact that they, they chose to
play foursome's first becausethey knew they'd have an
advantage in that, so they, theywanted to build a lead.
You know, if you look at howmany times, you know, either
side won the first hole toactually establish momentum, and

(13:44):
I think it was Europe was onethat won the first hole ten
times.
I think.
The USA won it four times andthey didn't win it once Until
the third session on the second,the fourth session on the
second day, right?
So they haven't, they haven'tgot to a point where they were
sort of like coming out of thetraps, putting red on the board,
and actually that psychologicalimpact of being able to do that

(14:05):
, and that, I think, is allabout Taking care of the details
and it's the small details thatthen compound to become bigger
impacts on the overallperformance.
I think you're right.

Speaker 1 (14:15):
I think that but that's, that's that you're
talking about, aren't detailseither, right?
So, like when you say stats,it's like, okay, how did they
use the stats to help them?
Because a lot of people don'treally use stats and don't
understand them.
But, for example they'vealluded a bunch to this, this
massive Anomaly.
They found between 180 and 220yards.
Right, they knew that they hada significant advantage at that

(14:38):
yardage that the Americans didnot have, quite frankly, because
the Americans never have thatyardage on the PGA tour.
So the big thing that theywould do is that they would
literally force you to playshots from this distance.
They set the par 3's to thoselengths.
They grew the grass in.
I mean, marco Simone Looks likea completely different golf
course than it did originallyBecause of the way they change

(15:01):
this golf course to give them anadvantage and, and to the to
the point of stats, they went astoo far as to actually go in
and change some of the grassesaround the golf course, because
they knew that that was going tolevel with the thick, wide
blade.
They knew that the playersweren't going to be able to spin
the ball nearly as much andthey kept talking about how the

(15:21):
Americans had Such an advantagewith the wedges.
Well, how do you take away someof that advantage?
Well, you give them reallyrough grass around the greens.
It's kind of difficult tomanage, and now everybody loses
a little bit and that bringstheir advantage back.
I mean, that's really usingstats.
But once again, that's startingusing those stats way
beforehand and really building aplan, and that's just, quite

(15:42):
frankly, what we don't do asAmericans.
We show up and think ourtalent's going to get it done,
we have a good doing it andother sports.

Speaker 2 (15:48):
Yeah, the golf course was was really almost like the
13th man for Team Europe.
They really did create thatgolf course Not, you know, not
only for match play and Ithought it turned out to be a
fantastic match play golf course.
I really didn't.
You know the Marcos Mone camein for a lot of criticism before
the tournament.
People were saying the roughstoo long and all this sort of
stuff and it's another sort offaceless Ryder Cup venue.

(16:10):
But I thought it was a superbRyder Cup venue.
I thought it produced fantasticdrama.
I thought it framed some amazingmoments and some amazing shots.
I mean whole 16.
I mean how many times on thatshort path forward did we see
sort of outrageous shots from?
You know people chipping ineven on the last day, like Sept
Strakas chip in or you knowTommy Fleetwood's Tea shop there
to actually find that green andto find the back of that green

(16:33):
after his opponent to put it inthe water.
I mean you know there was justso much that was dialed in to
Europe's strengths andunderstanding those strengths
and it wasn't just about drivingaccuracy.
I mean Europe had a very slightedge over the US Driver length
at three wood length andprobably long iron hybrid length
.
But it wasn't.
It wasn't significant, butactually and and Europe had a

(16:54):
team that was longer hitters,and they've had before.
I mean, traditionally the UShas been a longer-hitting side
but, like you say, they knewthat Europe had strengths and
had advantages in differentareas and they set up the golf
course and they told the playersthis was the plan.
This is what we've done.
This is how we've created anopportunity for you to find that
edge and exploit it.
And they did it.

(17:14):
I mean, in the fact that youknow a lot of those players had
played in Italian opens before.
You know it's a tough course.
It's been for the last threeyears.
It's been a tough, it's been areally tough venue for players
on the European tour.
So they were getting peopleinto the, into the feeling, into
the mindset, into the what wasgoing to be required to really
play well on that course.

(17:35):
And I think that I think thatyou know Dave Samson, who is the
the course architect from ArcoSimone.
He deserves a lot of credit.
He, you know, he he certainlyfaced a few brick bats in the in
the build up with peoplecriticizing the course, but I
think it was it was a fantasticBeautifully.

Speaker 1 (17:50):
I thought it's beautifully, I really did.
I thought it was great.
I mean, even from an Americanstandpoint, like it didn't.
It didn't feel link see, itdidn't feel.
You know, like some of theseother rider cups that have been
in Europe have felt to whereit's like, oh you know they got
a massive no, it felt like, youknow, everybody played.
I thought the play was at ahigh level across the board with
both sides.
Obviously some of the playersthat hadn't been there before

(18:13):
struggled a bit with thepressure, but you know, I
definitely think that the golfcourse played well and I think
not only that, but it was, itwas good theater.
If you look at the way the golfcourse is designed in the way
that the slopes are utilized, inthe way that the that the golf
course, the design actually fitsthe topography.
It creates a lot of these kindof nice big bowl features and

(18:33):
you could just see it at the endwith how many people were
packed in around every hole.
Man, it was.
So I think that was awesome.

Speaker 2 (18:40):
Yeah, the scene on the 16th, I mean it was just.
The crowds were absolutelyenormous.
And I was listening to apodcast this morning.
I think max home was sayingthat this is just the best T-box
I've ever been on.
You're looking down, it'scompletely ringed by these
massive crowds.
But you know, they designedthat golf course for the
spectators, they designed it forthe rider cup.
They knew there was going to bethis enormous number of people

(19:01):
who wanted to actually be ableto follow the action and see the
action and also create thatatmosphere.
And I think you know one thingI feel about the rider cup is I
love the sort of tribalism, Ilove the atmosphere which is
unique to the rider cup, but Idon't really, I really fired up.

Speaker 1 (19:16):
Man Like Roy's thrown in the back of a car because
he's all wound up, like I mean.

Speaker 2 (19:21):
You know you're getting that way at PGA that's
that's great, all that sort ofstuff, and it shows the passion.
But I really do feel quitestrong.
I don't like people shoutingout hit it in the water.
You know, yeah, cheat all thissort of stuff.
There's always a few sort ofpeople that let the vast
majority down.
I think you can cheer your team.
You can, absolutely.
You know, you can sing, you canchant them onto the tea.

Speaker 1 (19:43):
Yeah, you can have huge product of being in the sun
all day and having a few toomany, a few too many sodas, you
know I mean it's just it'sunfortunate man.

Speaker 2 (19:54):
What's it gonna be like at Beth page in two years?

Speaker 1 (19:56):
I mean, I'm real yeah yeah, and I really I don't.
I don't like the fact that webait these things to happen.
You know, like the, the PGAwants to see, you know, bedlam
when it comes to the Ryder Cupin 2025, because obviously that
makes, you know Twitter, nowknown as X, and you know
Instagram and everything gocrazy, you know, due to that.

(20:17):
But at the end of the day, man,like you know, I think it's
like anything.
These things happen right.
Like you know, somebody sayssomething shouldn't say they're
a little over-served, somebodydives in the water, but it's
always unfortunate because welet these things go too far and
then somebody gets hurt and thenwe say, well, we didn't see
that coming.
No, we tried to make that come.
Like we set that up, we setthat whole situation up.

(20:40):
So I just hope that they dosomething, because golf is one
of those sports and one of thosegames that really can be
affected by somebody from theoutside, and I certainly hope we
would never have a Ryder Cupcome down to something like that
.

Speaker 2 (20:53):
Yeah, when there was, there was and I don't know
whether this was true butsomebody shining their cell
phone torch On somebody's ballwhen they're teeing off and
things like that.
I mean you were alreadystarting to see this coming in
with with gambling and thingslike those people.
I mean, especially the RyderCup, when you got 12 singles
matches.
I mean the gamblingopportunities for that are, you
know, enormous on the last dayand actually on the first two
days as well.

(21:13):
But you don't want you don'twant that to sort of overstep
the mark.
I think partisanship isabsolutely fine.
The atmosphere of the Ryder Cupis totally unique.
It's more like a Britishfootball match than it is a golf
tournament.

Speaker 1 (21:24):
You're going into a heavyweight fight.
You know I mean it really does.
It has big energy.
It feels like a big footballgame.
It feels like rugby cricket.
I'm sure you know I haven'tbeen to a cricket match with
double D yet, but he's promisingto take me to one and I hear
the energy is pretty good there.
So Cricket.

Speaker 2 (21:40):
Cricket is quite gentile.
If you come to a, come over tothe UK next time, do you shall
take to a football match andwe'll you know what the proper
football, not what what youAmericans call football.
But, like you know, and I knowthat there's great atmospheres
at US sports as well, but andthat's why the players, but it's
over the line a lot too.

Speaker 1 (21:56):
You know we have that problem.
You know we celebrate theBuffalo Bills fan base, the
Bills mafia, because they jumpthrough tables and see.
Like it's it definitely, youknow, and I we will have this
conversation down the road andthat's the beautiful thing about
this podcast and making theturn is that it affords us the
opportunity to really look at alot of Things.
But I think part of making theturn with golf is we've seen

(22:20):
that there's a lot more of thisfootball crowd that's very kind
of in your face and we won andyou lost.
We see that really making itsway to the golf course and drove
.
So you know that is my concern.
Is that how much of golf'stradition We'll kind of move on
to the next generation, becauseI think it's what you see more
across the board in general atany sporting event.

(22:41):
Yeah, I mean there wasn't.

Speaker 2 (22:43):
You know who was.
There was in the UK.
On the coverage on TV there wasa lot of Trailing of the
Nicholas Jacqueline award.
You know the concession awardabout, you know sportsmanship
but and Justin Rose won it inthe end, which is fine because
he is a.

Speaker 1 (22:55):
He's a consummate sportsman's favorite golfer of
all time.
It's not close.

Speaker 2 (22:59):
But it's but it.
You know, there wasn't really amoment and I thought maybe it
was Ricky Fowler, because I wasreally surprised that he gave
that part to Tommy Fleetwood onthe 16th, which effectively
sealed the game.
I think there was a bit of meaton that bone.
I wouldn't have given that part.

Speaker 1 (23:11):
Three-footer to win the Ryder Cup.

Speaker 2 (23:13):
Yeah, downhill three-footer.
I was thinking, you know, whenit was serving the balance.
I was really surprised he gavethat part and I was thinking,
well, maybe he's looking to winsomething this week and it's the
Jacqueline Nicholas award.
But yeah, I mean, went to.
I kind of thought to myself.

Speaker 1 (23:27):
You know, for a guy that you wonder about under the
gun sometimes in my hats.
Off to him, because the lasttime he was under the gun he
paid it off at the rocketmortgage.
So you know he's a different.
Maybe he's different this way,but when I think of Ricky man
and I thought this to myself alot coming down the stretch a
lot of those guys were reallysquirrely under the gun.
And you know you're talkingabout late matches and You're

(23:51):
possibly a late match becausecoach didn't think it was gonna
matter when it came down to youand it's like those.
Just, you know I get it.
In the first couple matches yougot your rock stars out there.
You know, with the with theexception of Scotty kind of
really making a mess with theputter every now and then those
guys are pretty rock solid.
But to your point, man Threeand a half feet downhill to win
the rider cup in front of anawful lot of people, whoo, I

(24:13):
don't know.

Speaker 2 (24:14):
I went away.
Yeah, I was surprised by that.
But also you look at JordanSpieth.
I mean he was put out 12 ifyou're, it will gun if the US
were gonna win the rider cup.
They needed a really stronganchoring there.
Of course they needed to getred on the board, of course they
needed to get off to a reallyfast start.
But actually, the player whoplayed the worst all week by any
metric, you look at the playerwho was in the worst form coming

(24:34):
in by quite a long way and we,you know, we looked at the day
to the clip data on that and youcould see that.
You know Jordan Spieth wasstruggling coming in and
obviously, you know we're onlylooking back at his last
performance, which is five weeksago, so we don't know quite
what he's done in the meantime.
But nothing over the first,nothing over the first two days,
suggested he was on great formand, okay, he pulled it out, he
played.
It was an incredible match withLarry and we didn't see a lot of

(24:56):
it because it was sort of itwasn't a good form either, and
fairness to Shane, right likeand he hasn't been in great form
either no, but they both, they,apparently they just shot the
lights out in the last, in thelast match, but it was
interesting, you know, again,looking at that order that Zach
Johnson put out, you know thathe had, to your point, a lot of
players who weren't reallyplaying particularly well at the

(25:16):
bottom.
You know, maybe Justin Thomasare thinking, okay, we can trust
his rider, cut pedigree, he's afighter, he's somebody who's
gonna pull it out, and you know,sure enough, he did.
But yeah, it was just it.
There were so many strangedecisions, I thought, from Zach
Johnson, and a lot of them havebeen commented on.
But you know the pairings onthe first day putting out Ricky
Fowler when he wasn't feelingwell, I mean, why?
Why do that?

(25:37):
You know?
And the speed Thomas pairingjust wasn't, you know it wasn't.

Speaker 1 (25:43):
I don't think we had the right I mean, I don't think
that the US team had the I justI think that the whole system is
kind of flawed and and my pointthat I was gonna make a little
bit earlier, but I'll just goahead and say now is that, you
know, as an American, I love mycountry and I support the
American teams, obviously, butit's embarrassing, it's just

(26:04):
absolutely embarrassing that youknow, for us to have that big
of an advantage on paper andthen to not even Really make it
close because, if we're beinghonest, you know, I think it got
a little snug at the end, ormore so than people Expected it
too.
But, for the most part, like Iwas really hoping that the
European team would come out andjust trounce us this morning,

(26:25):
because I think very similar towhat happened after whistling
straights, I really think weneed to Look at the people who
are putting together theprocesses that lead to who gets
selected for the Capitancy andwho's going to be involved with
helping that captain, and whatkind of systems are we gonna put
in place to make sure we pickthe right people?
Because, quite frankly, youknow, as I alluded to earlier,

(26:47):
dustin Johnson Brooks kept.
I'm sorry Bryson De Shambow notbeing there.
You know, like you said, cameronYoung, another really
world-class player you know, notthere it's, it's like I get it.
You know we love the storylinesand we love that.
You know that we have all thesepictures of Ricky, jordan and
JT All together when they wereyoung and how cute is that and

(27:09):
it's an easy story to sell.
But at the end of the day Idon't know that what they did
this past year really, with theexception of Jordan Spieth, I
don't know what the other tworeally did With this year to
earn that spot.
I know that Ricky's an amazingstory and came back from you
know it looked like off the gridto win, but that's a wonderful
story.
But like what do you do therest of the year?

(27:30):
Like?

Speaker 2 (27:30):
how does it feel?
It feels to me a bit like thepower was in the hands of the
players too much.
You know the players, the sortof caucus of players that made
up the team USA, had the castingvote and you know Sam Burns.
He played okay, but he wasthere on the pick of Scotty
Sheffler almost certainly,wasn't he?
I mean, yes, he won the WorldMatch play this year and you

(27:51):
know that's a, that's a goodsort of tick in his column, but
he was there to partner ScottySheffler and that didn't really
work, did it?
It's kind of funny.

Speaker 1 (27:59):
We have this thing called.
We call it like elite bath.
We have elite travel basketballteams here in the US and these
teams it's kind of funny becausethey they, you know move on and
go play high school basketballor college basketball and like
the, the kids that are on theteam will only work with the
Other kids that they've been onteams with before, like they
won't pass the ball to the.
You know, I mean, and it doesfeel that way, right, it feels

(28:21):
like this is kind of a crew thatgrew up kind of playing all
this high-level junior golftogether and Like they're kind
of like well, now that we'rehere, let's just keep it to us
and they don't let any of theother kids you know on the bus.

Speaker 2 (28:33):
Yeah, there's a lot of commentary around that wasn't
there and you know people havecome out to defend the team
saying that wasn't the case.
But you know, bryson de Shambotis one of the most informed
players in the world at themoment and, like you say, in a
golf course with three drivablepar 4s, a short par 5 in 12 and
with that sort of prodigiouslength, he's going to have a
have a big advantage.

Speaker 1 (28:54):
Then, dustin Johnson, you want to talk about having
the right stuff.

Speaker 2 (28:59):
He went five and oh, the whistle whistle in straights
, you know.

Speaker 1 (29:01):
I mean.
I mean you really he's not evengood enough to get a phone call
like I mean, dude, it's justlaughable at what we're putting
out there.
And then my hats off.
You know, I'm not.
I'm not saying that we put outsuch a bad product that we lost
the Ryder Cup.
That's not true at all is amatter of fact.
What happened was the Europeanteam put together such a good
plan that they couldn't be beatwith an ensemble cast of some of

(29:24):
the best players in the world,and I don't want to take
anything at all away from whatteam Europe did.
But, with all that being said,still I feel like it could have
been potentially different, andCertainly a different outcome
than it was, had we had acaptain that was more involved
and looking at actualperformance instead of

(29:46):
storylines.

Speaker 2 (29:48):
Yeah, I mean, I think I think you know that the
Dilemma of being a Ryder Cupcaptain is if you win you're a
hero, if you don't, you'renowhere.
And then then the sort ofInquest starts afterwards and I
think after a 16 and a half for11 and a half to feet on the
back of a 1711 win, that wasmeant to be the opening of a new
epoch for the Ryder Cup in inthe US Ryder Cup teams.

(30:10):
That's a big step back.
You know that's a.
That's a really big sort ofBackward step and I think that
you know you made a really goodpoint.
Team Europe played superbly forthree days, particularly for
the first three sessions.
There was always going to be achange in momentum at some point
, because playing that level ofgolf is tiring Not that I've got
any experience of it whatsoever, but I've watched enough Ryder

(30:33):
Cup golf to know that how manyholes it do you think you've
walked with Seve?

Speaker 1 (30:39):
Oh, I don't know many , many.
What I want to know when he'sbut when he's in contention, how
much energy do you feel aroundthat?

Speaker 2 (30:47):
Oh, enormous.
Yeah, I mean, he became like,he became right, but to?

Speaker 1 (30:50):
do that at the Ryder Cup.
To your point, right, like toexude that amount of energy to
be in those moments, like Sevewas and you were there and you
could feel it, like I could feelit with Tiger on 18 at Augusta,
like I mean, it just literallysucks the energy out of
everything else.
And to your point, there isabsolutely no way to play five
matches and sustain that samelevel for all five.

(31:11):
There's just no way.

Speaker 2 (31:12):
I was at Brookline in 99 and watched all three days
of that and it was, you know, itwas a very similar Pattern to
what, almost what played outtoday.
Europe were imperious for thefirst two days, they built a big
lead, but then America came outon that last day, team USA came
out on that last day, and theystarted putting red on the board
.
And once you can change thatmomentum, once you can sow that

(31:35):
seed, once you can, you know,just just plant that doubt in
the opposition mind and alsothat Uncapitalized, on the fact
that a team had had played theirhearts out, had literally
Played so well over the firsttwo days and they were tired,
there's no doubt about it.
And obviously there weremistakes made by mark mark James
, who was the european captainthat year.
He didn't put out, you know,andrew Coltart, he didn't put

(31:57):
out Yame Samblin until thesingles they hadn't played and
Andrew Coltart went out againstTiger Woods at Brookline.
I mean, you know what chancehave you got?
But you know, I I was there onthe 17th when Justin Leonard
hold that part against JoseMaria.
Really, yeah.

Speaker 1 (32:13):
I was up a tree being shouted at by, Um uh sort of
Massachusetts police officer notthe first time you've been I
shouted at from being up a treeright Well so, certainly by
american police officer, but itwas an extraordinary and it was.

Speaker 2 (32:24):
It was a really feebrile atmosphere that day.
I mean it was that was the timethat I remember really thinking
, even post keawa, that therider cup has really changed.
Now this is really hostile andgoing, going to play away, and
maybe that template had been setby what happened at keawa.
But you know, going to playaway was a he was walking into
the sort of lines.
Then it was, it was enteringthe bear pit.

(32:44):
But you know what happened onthat day and I did fear a little
bit for europe today.
I did fear that if Team usastarted getting read on the
board, started sort of buildleads.
But you know, over the firsttwo days I think it was, it
wasn't until the third sessionon day the, the second session
rather, on day two, the fourballs that team usa had held a

(33:06):
lead of three up in any game.
Two up was the biggest leadthey'd built.
And you know, as we know,europe won the foursome seven
one.
They were miles ahead after twodays.
So they just never had thatability to put the foot down and
actually move clear andactually start to Send that sort
of that pulse of anxietythrough the other team.
And that's what happened atbrookline and, and you know the

(33:29):
result was a phenomenal comebackby by team usa, just as it was
at medina, you know, for the,for the miracle of medina, it
can happen.
So there is a, you know thereis precedent for that, but it
just seemed that the, you know,the american players couldn't
really put their foot to thefloor, couldn't put their, you
know, couldn't hit the gas in asufficient way.
And also europe had those, thosetotems in John rom, rory

(33:52):
mackereloy, you know you had afantastic rider cup.
He was unbeaten three and ahalf out of four points.
Rory, four out of five.
Hovland was just fantastic andRam as well, of course.
You know I mean, some of the,some of the golf shots he hit
were just extraordinary.
And you know we talk about Seviand you know I heard an
interview with Ram afterwards inwhich he talked about how Jose

(34:14):
Merela Athabal had said to him,I think after, you know, after
one of the one of the matches onSaturday, he said you reminded
me of somebody today.
And he was put, he was doingstuff that was otherworldly, he
was superhuman some of the stuffhe was doing.
But can I?

Speaker 1 (34:26):
tell you my theory about John Rom that I don't
think anybody else has ever said.
Here's my theory on John Rom.
Okay, you remember the movie,the movie major league with
Charlie Charlie Sheen, right?
Yeah, so he's in major league,right?
You remember they had thehitter that hadn't had any hits
all season and he would pray toJobu and he was giving them,
like you know, live chickens andwhiskey and everything.

(34:48):
And like, praying to Jobu, likeI'm convinced that they just
bring all the Sevi stuff out andthat's like them, praying to
the spirit of Sevi, come insideof John Rom, because there is
zero doubt in my mind that JohnRom has encapsulated and
embodied Sevi Bayesteros.

(35:08):
And just during the writer,like that shot he hit on 17 to
end it yesterday was justabsolutely mind boggling good.
I mean that golf ball tried toturn three different directions
and in the middle of the shotand like it was just willed to
go, I'm surprised it didn't goin.
That was.
The surprising part about thatshot is that it didn't go in the

(35:28):
hole.

Speaker 2 (35:29):
Yeah, he was, he was, he was just incredible
throughout.
I mean I lost count of how manyother worldly golf shots John
Rom hit during it.
He was a man inspired and Ithink you know he mentioned Sevi
after winning the Masters.
Sevi is obviously a hugeinfluence on him on Spanish golf
but on European golf, I meanthat generation of players that
Sevi led.
I mean he he played in theRyder Cup, you know, in the 83

(35:53):
Ryder Cup in PGA National whereEurope came really really close
and he hit one of the greatestshots of all time.
That sadly was never captured ontelevision because the telecast
hadn't started and he was inthe first match out against
Fuzzy Zella and hit a three-woodout of a fairway bunker from
240 yards up near the lip with aTony Penner, per Sim and three
wouldn't just carved this ball,you know, got its turn in the

(36:15):
air like 40 yards and found agreen guarded by water and
managed to make a five.
That was his third shot becausehe hacked his second into a
bunker from thick rough.
I mean the guy was capable ofpulling out these shots in the
moment, you know, when themoment called for it and when
you know, come at the hour.
Come at the man that was Seviall over and there was something

(36:36):
about playing, playing theAmericans that brought out the
absolute best in him.
And I think the same with Ram.
I mean the strange thing isthat you know three of the three
of the European side of anAmerican accent.
I mean John Ram's got a prettyAmerican accent, ludwig A Berg
or Orberg has got, you know, hasbasically been schooled in the
States, and then Sepsdraker Ithink.
I think he lives in Texas.

(36:57):
So you know he's lived overthere for a long time.
But there's something about themand they come together about
representing Europe and you knowit can be seen as a cliché and
I know there are certainAmerican fans who get tired of
the reference to Sevi, but youonly had to see the huge sort of
flag that was that was sort ofunfurled across the massive
grandstand around the first tee.

(37:18):
You know the fact that theplayers had, you know, sevi's
sort of image embroideredunderneath their rider cup sort
of insignia on their shirts.
You know what happened atMedina.
You know they had Jose MariaLathabal there, who was this
sort of living, you know theliving connection between that
era that Sevi completelyspearheaded you know with it,
which included the lights ofNick Faldo and Bernard Langer

(37:40):
and Sandy Lyle and Ian Woosamand all those sorts of amazing
players.
But you know Lathabal is thebridge and there were all sorts
of things around the rider cupand I think you know they even
in the team dressing room theyhad an extra locker for Sevi.
Yes, I think that you know.
I think if it didn't reallymean something, there would be a

(38:00):
certain element of eye rollamongst the European players.
But it really does meansomething, even to like players.

Speaker 1 (38:07):
Yeah, I don't, I don't buy into that stuff, but
it doesn't mean anything to theplayers and like no, no, no it
and like the whole.
You know, I think it was astory that somebody put out to
gain some recognition.
But the whole story about youknow how shawfully and can't lay
were, you know, kind of at oddsfor not getting paid.
You know, I'm on the, I'malways on the fan, I'm always on

(38:28):
the side of the players gettingpaid, and the reason is is
because the rider cup generatesan enormous amount of money and
if none of that money is goingto the players, then I have a
real problem with it, becausethey're why we tune in.
It's always about the players.
You can tell me it's tradition,this, that or the other, but we
all tune in to watch the bestplayers hit the most terrific
shots.
So I'm always, always, alwaysin fan of them getting paid.

(38:50):
But I don't think the story wastrue.
I think that those guys, itmeans something to all of them,
and you know whether you're anAmerican or European, you know I
don't know that the fansnecessarily get it, but the
players definitely do, andanybody that's on on one of
those players teams gets it too.
You know I've talked to quite afew coaches this week who are
over working with players at therider cop and you know just the

(39:13):
text messages I've shared withthem has been really cool and
insightful and you know just themoments that they're having
just being, you know, very smallcontributing part of that.
It changes everybody's liferight, like everybody that goes
keeps mementos, everybody hangson to that stuff and it's the
stories you tell yourgrandchildren.
So I definitely think it meansa lot to the players.

Speaker 2 (39:32):
Yeah, I mean, you know Patrick Cantlay has
obviously been the sort ofvillain of the piece.
You know amongst team, you knowEuropean fans, but also
probably amongst some Americanfans as well.

Speaker 1 (39:43):
Yeah, they go after the poor guy constantly.

Speaker 2 (39:46):
There's been a lot of backlash, but the guy was a
rock star, you know.
He played really, really wellthis week and, like anybody
who's getting that much stickfrom that many people you know
walking off every tier, alongevery fairway and they're waving
hats at him and he's stillthere and he's still battling
and he was still pulling outthese clutch shots at clutch
times.
I find it impossible to believethat it doesn't matter to

(40:08):
somebody like that.
He might have an issue, likeyou say, with the amount of
money that's been made, you know, for different organizations
and that maybe he's not goinginto his pocket, but they do get
$200,000 to donate to a charityof their choice.

Speaker 1 (40:21):
So they you know there is, which is a tax write
off right.

Speaker 2 (40:24):
So let's be honest yeah.

Speaker 1 (40:26):
Like that's the way that you write down your taxes,
a little bit for people thatdon't know how you work the
system.

Speaker 2 (40:30):
But like, okay, like but it's not.

Speaker 1 (40:32):
That's not why anybody's there, right?
And I agree.
The one thing I will agree withis Zach Johnson said in one of
his press conferences was youknow people would pay to play in
this?
And he's absolutely telling thetruth, right?
Because I think that you knowthe upset is.
A few of the names are that Imentioned that aren't there.
You know, given the opportunityto pay a couple million and be

(40:52):
there on Sunday to go out for asingles match, I bet they would
have paid it to be there.

Speaker 2 (40:56):
Yeah, I mean, it's a totally unique experience.
Every single player talks aboutthat.
It's unlike anything else.
And these, you know many ofthem have won major
championships.
Virtually all of them have wonbig tournaments.
In fact all of them have andsome of them have sort of Hall
of Fame careers.
But there is nothing like arider cup for putting you in
that sort of crucible ofpressure, to experience pressure

(41:17):
, and you know the pressure ofnot only performing in front of
crowds like that and that mustfeel like that but for your
teammates, and all the playerstalk about this.

Speaker 1 (41:25):
So yeah, you can see why I would take away from this
rider cup.
Here's what I would take awayfrom the American side.
If you're a betting man and Iknow that the double D likes to
the way- to you, like you poundhere and there.
I'll tell you what.
I think that this was thebeginning, and I'm saying it
here first on the making theturn podcast, I think that this
is kind of the beginning of thereal coming out party for one,

(41:49):
mr Max Homa.
I think he played rock solid.
I think that really did a lotto build his confidence.
His team that he has around himis impeccable.
He works with one, mr MarkBlackburn, I believe.
If I'm not mistaken, markBlackburn had, I believe, four
players in the rider cup withthis pretty darn good and he's

(42:11):
got a great team.
He seems to be finding a lot ofconfidence and seems to have
maybe found his footing.
And I would hate to be havingto beat him on a Sunday when
it's coming down the stretchwith the confidence of what it
took for him to make that sevenand a half footer, to keep it
going and to keep the dreamalive, because that's what I
would be thinking about everycompetitive tournament the rest

(42:33):
of my life.

Speaker 2 (42:34):
Yeah, I think that the really interesting thing
about what he did on 18 is itshowed such clear thinking at a
time when he had every right forhis brain to be completely
scrambled.
You know, to take the drop toback himself, to get up and down
to assess the situation as itwas unfolding.
And you're right, he playedfantastic golf.
He was an undoubted star of theAmerican team.

(42:56):
I think that Cantley deserves alot of credit as well, for
where he performed.

Speaker 1 (43:01):
Yeah for taking the stick and playing that way, 100%
.
But I mean, I just think thatwhen you look at who really
stood out and, like you know, ifyou were walking out the gate
of the Ryder Cup today and youwere like, oh, it was a great
show.
You know, who do you think weought to keep an eye on next?
You know, like kind of like youdo after a movie, picking an
actor that you're like Idefinitely think that Max

(43:22):
Pomer's, the guy that stood out,had his shoulders above
everybody else.

Speaker 2 (43:25):
He hit a lot of great looking shots.
So didn't him.
And he's got a great swing andactually some of the you know
seeing the flight of the ballfrom you know down the line he
just seemed to be, just it wason a rope, you know he was
playing.
He just seemed to be strikinghis eye and so well, he seemed
to be thinking his way aroundthe golf course.
Well, very cool under pressure.
And I think, like you say, hehad a good president's cup last

(43:46):
time out.
He's performed really well in afaltering US side.
He's proven himself and now itwill be really interesting to
see if he can take that nextstep on in his career.
He's already, you know, anelite performer.
He was, you know, he had a goodseason.
He was probably about fourth orfifth in terms of form coming
into, coming into the Ryder Cupin the US team and I think it

(44:09):
will now obviously the one, theone sort of black mark on his
record at the moment, if you'dlike, is his performances and
majors.
Can he use that experience nowto take that away and think,
okay, I've actually performed inthe harshest crucible of all.
I'm going to back myself nowbecause he's never really done
it in a major yet.

Speaker 1 (44:30):
Yeah, I don't think he's going to waste that
opportunity.
I definitely think he's goingto learn from this and take it
forward.
And you know, I just think itwould be hard to imagine that,
you know, the team that he workswith would would not build
around this moving forward.
You know.

Speaker 2 (44:44):
I think you kind of have to.
Who do you, who do you thinkwho would you say the same about
?
From Team Europe?
I mean, who surprised you fromTeam Europe?
I mean Bobby.
You know, I think it wasinteresting that that you know
Bob McIntyre had a lot ofnegative press coming in, wasn't
playing that well, didn'treally have his best stuff, but
he was still unbeaten.

(45:04):
I don't necessarily think, Idon't necessarily think he's
going to go on and do somethingamazing next season.

Speaker 1 (45:09):
I think he's going to have a better career than he
would have.
I think he'll definitely growfrom it right and probably go
out there and compete at alittle higher level.
But you're right, I don't, Idon't think that he's the one
you know, interestingly enough,and it's the easy answer.
You know, when I look at youknow kind of what is chalk.
You know, for the Ryder Cup,you know John Rom summoning the

(45:30):
spirits of Sevi, like we weretalking about, like that seems
pretty on brand for John Rom,like I don't, I don't know that
he necessarily takes anythingaway other than just more kind
of lure around the Ryder Cup andwhat he is as a Ryder Cup
player.
But I really think that you know, rory really surprised a lot of
people and I almost kind offeel like this was kind of him

(45:53):
finally letting go of the PGAtour live battle in regards to
you know, he kind of wentthrough that and then it kind of
fizzled out and then Rory waskind of made to look like, you
know, a mouthpiece for the PGAand it didn't really.
It was pretty anticlimacticreally and Rory never got a
chance to even have a rebuttalto that.
It was just kind of onto thenext news cycle.

(46:14):
And then I think that this,really, rory is tired of being
walked on.
And I think that I don't thinkthat anything that happened on
18 yesterday was really all thatabsurd.
I just think it was the wrongtime at the right time, sort of
thing.
Right, yeah, or the wrong thingat the right time, and I think
that Rory's frustrations boiledover.

(46:35):
But the thing that wasimpressive and I don't know, but
it would be scary if we gotthat Rory to show up at the
majors Like that was that Rorythat showed up this morning was
pissed off and determined andlike he wasn't going to get beat
.

Speaker 2 (46:49):
Like he that was To go four out of five.
You know that after whathappened at Whistling Straight
there was a lot of pressure onhim.
Obviously, the question markabout the long major drought
continues and it will come backat, you know, when April rolls
around and we come around toAugusta and of course that will
start again.
But he will put a lot, I think,in the locker from what
happened this week.

(47:10):
I think you're right about Rahm.
I mean, rahm is on a greattrajectory.
I think Hovland you know nosurprises.
He played well.
He was the most informed playeron both sides coming into the
tournament and he just continuedto play in the world.

Speaker 1 (47:22):
Because I don't know, like normally when you look at
a guy like Scottie Scheffler,right, like you know he kind of
breaks all the rules.
His footwork's kind of all overthe place.
He quote, unquote, earlyextends.
He just breaks a lot of therules that instructors think
that exist within golf.
But you know it's easy to pointto Scottie and go, well, you

(47:44):
know it's putting.
You know, especially from shortrange can be an Achilles heel,
right, like you could see how hekind of the rails come off and
all of a sudden he can't make afive footer for a couple months
in a row.
That would make sense.
But when you look at Victor,you know he first off he's been
a very well known commoditysince college.
Okay, like I know that mostAmericans are typically late to

(48:07):
the story, but you know Victor'sbeen a very known commodity
since he came out of Oklahomaand has just been an absolute
flusher ever since he steppedfoot on the PGA tour and he's
been known as that since day one.
And the thing is is and it'sbeen very well documented.
At a point he was not as good atchipping as he was the other

(48:28):
skills.
It doesn't mean like hecouldn't chip and we couldn't,
of course he could, he was onthe PGA tour but the work he's
done with Joe Mayo, with hisshort game and the confidence
that he has in that short gamelike this, isn't just he's
confident and it's working.
Now they actually changed itand now it works for him and he
understands how to make it work.
And he doesn't do anythingamazing.

(48:49):
He really doesn't.
He hits fairways, he hitsgreens, he makes putts and like
when you're just kind of one ofthose whole hum guys and he
seems to be pretty much, youknow, nothing seems to really
bother him too much in terms ofthe added pressure from winning
big events.
Like dude, I don't know what'sgoing to beat that guy.

Speaker 2 (49:11):
I mean he looks pretty dangerous for next year.
I mean he's just on such asteep trajectory.
I mean his chipping was belowtwo average.
We saw that.
We looked at his clip data andhe was below two.
But his trajectory with hisshort game has been really
really impressive.
He's now he's now got a really.
He's now got a really strongshort game.

Speaker 1 (49:29):
It might not be elite yet, but it's certainly better
than better than two average Atthe US Open at Brookline when he
hit it into the face of thatbunker to lose the open right,
Like he was coming down thestretch when he drilled that six
or seven iron right into theface of that bunker and that was
essentially the tournamentright.

(49:49):
That was it for Victor.
I swear.
The reason that he tried toeven hit that shot was because
he didn't have the confidence hehas today in his short game and
he was trying to hit a shotthere to knock it near or on the
green because he didn't want tohave to pitch or chip that ball
.
I swear, and I know that I getit like.
I know he had already made thechange with Joe and all that

(50:11):
stuff, but at the same time Iwould be willing to bet that he
would go full Max Homa here, hita wedge out of that bunker now
lay up, chip up, make the parand move on, instead of trying
to take that shot on, whicheffectively took him out of that
tournament.
I think he made a decisionthere and said, OK, like now I

(50:31):
got to start trusting this thingand I really got to like learn
how to do this because, underthe gun, this is what's
separating me from them.

Speaker 2 (50:38):
Well, the interesting thing is, he's clearly got a
growth mindset, hasn't he?
He's very easy to say I'm goingto take the lessons of a
painful defeat.
And it was I think it was PGA,wasn't it?

Speaker 1 (50:49):
I'm sorry, pga, thank you.

Speaker 2 (50:52):
And he took the lessons from that and he's
worked on it and he's not he'snot sort of allowed it to be an
anchor around his, around hisankles.
He's, he's moved forwards fromit.
I mean, I think the interestingthing on the team year will be
players like Hatton andFleetwood, I mean both of them
are top 20 players.
Yeah, they're both.
They're both.
They're both really goodplayers.

(51:13):
But can they now make thatbreakthrough?
Can they now go through thatsort of glass ceiling to the
next level?
I mean I think it will behappens been knocking on the
door for a while.

Speaker 1 (51:22):
Fleetwood obviously hasn't won in the States but has
had a really good season anddanger of being mean spirited
and I don't want to be.
I really I loved Harold Hatton.
I think he's amazing, and TommyFleetwood as well.
But you know, I kind of thoughtthe same thing double D when,
you know, obviously Fleetwoodbecame the closer there.
I would have liked to have seenTommy make that three and a

(51:44):
half footer to close it out,because I think he would have
learned something from that.
But I kind of thought to myselfabout it.
You know, did Tommy grow fromthis?
But at the end of the day, youknow, I think if Tommy would
have had to go out there to winthat tournament for Europe and
face the pressure, knowing thatit was going to come down to him
for three days in a row, Idon't necessarily know that

(52:05):
Tommy would have showed up thesame way.
It felt kind of back, dory, youknow what I mean Like you just
happened to be a random guy.

Speaker 2 (52:11):
I think it's a.
I think it's a, it's, it's a.
It's an interesting point.
I mean, obviously, the.
You know the way he played withMolinari.
He was fantastic and they wentfor no for the first two days
and then he didn't quite haveanything left in the town for
the singles.
He is a great partner.
He's a great team player.
He's hugely valued by histeammates.
He's a great guy.
Everybody loves Tommy Fleetwood.
He's got a wonderful swing.

(52:33):
He strikes a ball.
He's a winner.
He just, I don't think he winsenough for that level of talent
and that ball striking abilitythat he has, which is, you know,
which is elite.

Speaker 1 (52:44):
I get in trouble for saying this, but there is a
level right, Like there is.
You know, certain people havethe it factor, the killer
mindset or whatever you want tocall it right, Like Tiger is a
winner and Tiger is not likebeloved by all, Like Tiger rubs
a lot of people the wrong waybecause he kind of has that I'm
a winner mindset and generally,like I mean I kind of think the

(53:05):
same of Sergio, you know, I meanI thought it was amazing that
we just watched a Ryder Cup thatdidn't have Sergio Garcia and
it didn't have probably Mr RyderCup himself and we know that
would be Mr Ian Polter.
Right, Like, think about it,Neither one of those guys were
there for Europe and you didn'teven notice.
Like it's unreal.

(53:25):
I thought when they announcedthe changes and those two guys
wouldn't be there, like I didn'tthink it would be the same.
But I'll be, I'll be darned, itreally was.
But those guys, really Ithought it was interesting how
it all played out.

Speaker 2 (53:39):
I really did, yeah it was a great Ryder Cup.
I mean, there's nothing,nothing like the Ryder Cup.
I know that's a cliche, but itis unique.
I feel sort of emotionallyspent after the last three days.

Speaker 1 (53:50):
Yeah, just just imagine having the Soulheim Cup
with it, though.
Imagine having the Soulheim Cupwith it.
Man, that would have been socool.

Speaker 2 (53:57):
It was a big opportunity Miss, wasn't it the
fact that they had the SoulheimCup and the Ryder Cup in
consecutive weeks in Europe, theopportunity to market them
together?
And I think Stacy Lewis madethe point that she sort of tried
to do outreach to the PGA.
She tried to see whether therewere opportunities to be able to
market the two events together.
And I think that the women'sgame is on such an amazing

(54:20):
uptick at the moment.
There are so many great playersaround.
But you know, in the StatesDouble D.

Speaker 1 (54:26):
It was so hard, like the coverage was on, you know,
not on any mainstream, like youhad to go to Peacock to find the
coverage and then, like, eventrying to find just scoring
updates online, I mean verydifficult, even on the LPGA
website, which I really that'sthat really frustrated me the
most was the fact that, going tothe LPGA website, I still

(54:48):
couldn't find, like they hadsome stuff, but I mean it wasn't
like, you know, just give mesome live scoring man, like let
me know how the matches stand,because I'm trying to follow
this and I want to be engaged,and that's where I think we
really don't don't hit the mark,because, you're right, the
Ryder Cup has been amazing.
I'm emotionally spent, you know, and it's been fun.
But what could we tie the, thegolf consumer, over with?

(55:10):
Well, we could do, you know,ryder Cup every two, soulheim
every two, and dude, it's fun,like these are fun events, right
?
So, you know, we couldliterally get it going to where
the guys that like to go andsupport the men at the Ryder Cup
Heck, those people wouldprobably love to go to the
Soulheim Cup too, and you'regoing to see the same level of
golf.
It's not like the women don'tplay as well as the men.

(55:31):
I mean, I thought the SoulheimCup was amazing.
I thought that the Europeanteam obviously did an amazing
job.
But you know, I think honestly,if you look I know Stacy gets a
lot of credit for usinganalytics as well but if you
look at how the Soulheim teamthe European Soulheim team beat
the American team and you lookat how the Ryder Cup teams were

(55:51):
beaten, it was a very similarstyle.
The Europeans just really had amore well thought out plan that
they executed.
Simple as that.

Speaker 2 (56:00):
Yeah, I mean, I think that the United States, the
access to the golfing world, hasshifted sort of you know, so
strongly towards the UnitedStates over the last 15, 20
years that Europe need to, as wediscussed at the outset, they
need to explore everyopportunity to find an edge, and

(56:21):
they did that very successfullyat the Solheim Cup and they did
that very successfully at theRyder Cup.
And the big test now will becan they do something that a
Ryder Cup team hasn't done for along time since Medina, which
is to win on away soil?
And it's going to be very, verytough at Beth Page, as we know,
and I think after theatmosphere we've seen in Rome,

(56:43):
then the crowds at Beth Page aregoing to be totally up for it.

Speaker 1 (56:47):
Yeah, I think that New York loves a chance to show
off when it comes to who's gotthe craziest fans.
You know, it's like the onlything that could be crazier is
as soon as it's over.
If we went to Boston, becauseBoston would, boston would be
sure to one up them.
But you know, I mean, whenyou're talking about the
Northeast and you're talkingabout sports, you're talking
about very, very passionatesports fans people.
So I think it'll be great.

(57:08):
I hope, I hope that itmaintains some level of respect.
Obviously, you know, as a fan,you know I've been to a lot of
these events, as have you.
It's like, yeah, you know, likethat is part of the fun.
But it's fun to like wave yourhat at somebody right, like I
think that that was kind of agood fun kind of thing with
Patrick and the crowd the wholeweek.
But you know, when you starttalking about players, wives and

(57:31):
stuff like that and shininglights, and I think that gets a
bit disrespectful.
And as long as we don't crossthat line, you know, I'm all for
it because I do think itcertainly adds an element to it.

Speaker 2 (57:41):
Yeah, I agree.
I just I just don't like, as Isaid earlier, I don't like
hearing voices from the crowdgoing hit it in the water, miss
it, shank it, you're a cheat.
You know he wasn't a cheat.
You know somebody shoutedyou're a cheat.
You know when he took the drop.
When Max Homer took the drop onon 18, he wasn't a cheat, he
was actually.
You know, he had an unplayablelie where he was very likely
just going to flub it into thebunker and he made a really
smart choice and actually thatgold fan if he is indeed a goal

(58:05):
for the guy who shouted cheatwould have something to learn
from what Max Homer did on the18th actually to be present and
in the moment and think, okay,what is the best course of
action here?
I mean, it obviously helps whenyou've got a short game like
Max Homer's, but the shot he, itwas incredible.

Speaker 1 (58:20):
The shot.
I mean I, the decision.
You're absolutely right.
I couldn't agree with you moreLike.
As a coach, my heart is singingright.
Like that a player was presentand made a good decision and
like, didn't just go attack thatpen and hit it in the water and
take themselves out of the holeor whatever the case may be,
but you're the shot that he hitlike, because the thing is is,

(58:40):
you know that as soon as hewalked up and saw how bad that
lie was and as great as he is,it's self regulating, I'm sure
your heart rate is still jacked.
Like to walk up and to justalmost you know that there's
that thought that crosses yourhead.
I'm done Right, like, and you,just you have that moment and
luckily, I have that on thefirst tee generally.

Speaker 2 (59:02):
I have that.
I put a club in my hand.

Speaker 1 (59:04):
But yeah, I know you're right, I just thought
there was.

Speaker 2 (59:06):
I just I don't, you know, to your point, I don't.
I just think that I hope thatit doesn't cross the line with
the Ryder Cup.
I mean, at times it borders onit and at times it does cross
over.
I think that what I've alwaysbeen proud about, about being a
British golf fan, is the waythat, you know, visiting players
when they come and play in theopen championship would talk

(59:27):
about knowledgeable gallerieswho would actually clap, it's
true, it's all true, clap greatshots that were hit to.
You know they recognize a goodshot.
The good shot doesn't have tobe within two foot of the pin.
Sometimes it can be finding agreen, you know, finding the fat
of the green from a reallydifficult spot in a crosswind.
You know, we're talking reallyhere about the open championship
and that is a very differentvibe to the Ryder Cup.

(59:48):
I mean, they're two completelyseparate things.
But I do think that spirit ofrespect, that spirit of being
able to applaud a good shot,even if you're, it's very clear
about which team you'resupporting and who you're
pulling for and who you'rerooting for, I just don't.
I hope that that doesn't go outof the game entirely, because I
don't really appreciate playersbeing booed and stuff like that
.
I mean, you know we're watchingthese guys to your point about,

(01:00:11):
to your point about the playersbeing paid.
You know they are the stars ofthe show.
They are pulling out the mostunbelievable golf shots and
playing the most unbelievablegolf under the most extreme
pressure and that makes forgreat theatre and that's why,
you know, so many thousands ofpeople travel to Rome.
That's why so many millions ofpeople watch it on TV.

(01:00:32):
That's why there's so manybillions of comments on social
media.

Speaker 1 (01:00:36):
We're talking about it right now, man.

Speaker 2 (01:00:38):
And we're talking about it.

Speaker 1 (01:00:39):
Right, you know I mean it's, it is.
It really is an amazing eventand at the, at the at the risk
of sounding like atraditionalist, you know I agree
.
You know I, I love.
You know I have a single strapbag.
I love carrying it, I likewalking.
You know it doesn't mean thatI'm against music on the golf
course, it doesn't mean I'magainst.

(01:00:59):
I played with a gentlemanyesterday who played with bare
feet.
You know I'm good with that,like I'm not against these
things.
It's just at the end of the day, though, when it comes to these
special events, I do hope thatwe do stay a little bit more
with the traditional side of itand and always make sure that we
keep respect at the center ofthe competition, because I

(01:01:20):
really don't like I mean I waswatching, been a big Colorado
football fan this season so far.
I really like what coach prime'sdone.
But you know I saw that videocome out of kind of how that
team, how the Colorado team, wasacting towards the Oregon team
prior to the game, and you knowI don't, I don't think I want
that for golf.
You know I just I don't likethe, the ultra macho stuff, the,

(01:01:42):
the, the crazy alpha.
You know, I just I don't thinkgolf needs that because at the
end of the day, golf's hardenough just trying to beat the
golf course.
You add, you know, a personinto that.
I mean, dude, you got yourhands full.
So like, let's just keep it allrespect and and and compete.

Speaker 2 (01:01:58):
Yeah, I mean I was really disappointed to hear what
Brian Harmon said and this isno criticism of Brian Harmon
after the, after his openchampionship win and we were at
the, you know, we were at HoyLake together, deutch, and we
watched a lot of golf that weekbut I thought he was a fantastic
winner.
He played lights out golf for aweek.
He'd lapped the field.
He was, you know, clearly thebest golfer that week.

(01:02:20):
And just because he isn'tnecessarily one of these sort of
marquee names or these sort ofrock stars of the game, that
didn't matter to me.
I just think you've got toidentify the best winner.
And actually there was a guy, Ithink on the final day, who he
had ejected from the crowd, fromthe galleries, because he was
literally on his case andshouting miss it.
Yeah, he was putting his putterback.
And you know what I take, thatI sort of take that personally

(01:02:43):
because I'm proud of the factthat British and European
particularly British, you knowgolf fans and golf crowds and
galleries are knowledgeable andthey, like you know, they
appreciate good golf and they'rehappy to show that appreciation
.
And I don't like it when, whenpeople overstep the mark or
people, you know, besmirch ourreputation, and I think that

(01:03:04):
while the the beautiful thingright is like for one guy that
messed that up like you'retalking about.

Speaker 1 (01:03:08):
But you know, man, they had to be removed for
ribbon, you know.
So actually, double Dabsolutely saved me.
He wasn't there on Sunday andthe weather was really really
terrible on Sunday.
So the double D saved me abunch and gave me a pass to get
into one of the large mediacenters.
So I was in there for a goodmajority of the front nine and

(01:03:30):
it was funny because everybodywas watching the TVs and this
thing, right, and it's packedbecause the weather's so bad,
everybody's just trying to staydry and warm.
But every time Brian would likemiss a shot or like it wouldn't
be like going, the wholeeverybody would cheer, right,
but it was like such a it wasn'tlike you suck kind of cheer, it
was like everybody was justhaving good fun because it was

(01:03:51):
pretty obvious that Brian wasn'tgoing.
You know what I mean and andthat's fun, right, Like that's
what the Ryder Cup should belike.
A good ribbing is fun, but, toyour point, when you're trying
to actually get in the way andmake yourself part of the story,
that's when I have a problemwith it.

Speaker 2 (01:04:05):
Yeah, well, hopefully , you know I think it was a
great Ryder Cup.
You know there's always a few,there's always.
There's always times when it's,you know, it goes over the
margins or or things get alittle bit out of hand.
But I do think it was afantastic Ryder Cup.
There was amazing passionshowed by the crowds, by the
players.
There was an X, you know,extremely high level of golf

(01:04:28):
from both teams, particularlyEurope, over the first two days
and even on the final day therewas some.
There was some fantastic golfand I think you know what you
said earlier on about, you know,the players almost having to
have their nerve ends singed abit to actually get back into
that, that competition mode.
It almost felt like it was twodays of Ryder Cup competition

(01:04:49):
that singed the nerve ends ofthe American team to be able for
that, for some of them to comeout and play.
You know as well as they did.
I mean Jordan Spieth was, Ithink he was like six or seven
under or something, and so wasLarry, but you know Spieth
hadn't been there for for twodays.
So it was, it was a great.
It was a great Ryder Cup.
They, they, they, you know theyinvariably are, even if the

(01:05:11):
results hasn't been closed forquite some time now, and I think
a lot of people wanted a closeoutcome.
We didn't necessarily get one,although it did definitely get
squeaky bum time, as they say inthe UK at various times on the
on the final day, but I think 16and a half, 11, half, is a fair
result.
I think it's a fair reflectionof the the, the disparity

(01:05:31):
between the two teams.
I think that the way that theyprepared, the way that they were
set up, I think a five pointmargin probably probably an
accurate reflection.

Speaker 1 (01:05:42):
Yeah, and I honestly think that, to your point, I
think the Americans reallyrallied around some of the, some
of the stuff, you know, thatwas going on in the media and
all that, and I'm sure someclarity will come about, all
that.
You know, I'm a big believer inthe fact that I really disagree
with how the US team was set upin the first place, which led

(01:06:03):
to the captaincy of Zach.
But, with all that being said,you know, I really think that at
some point, we really need tolook at how we're going to go
about doing this, because you'reseeing that the Europeans are
taking this very seriously and Ithink that the US now has to,
you know, have a rebuttal forthat, obviously, when we get to
25 in New York.

(01:06:25):
So it'll be very interesting,right?
I think that it's just one ofthose things to where, you know,
at the end of the day, we needto stop trying to necessarily
just, you know, rest ontradition and the fact that you
know, on paper, we should winthis thing by a mile and we need
to really start thinking about,you know, what are the
differentiators?

(01:06:45):
Who's going to be on our team,who are going to be the
difference makers and, mostimportantly, we.
I think we really need to startdoing what Europe does, an
amazing job of which is groomingthat next generation right,
like Justin Rose as I saidearlier, one of my all time
favorite players, and I wouldsay he definitely stepped into
that Ian Polter role, you know,and he was kind of out there and
really just did an amazing job.

(01:07:06):
I felt like if kind ofshepherding some of the young
players which you saw, you know,john Rom doing earlier in the
week, and I think that that'ssmart right.
I think that the Ryder Cup issomething very serious for the
European team and, as anAmerican, I would really like to
see us take it more seriouslyand put together a better
product.

Speaker 2 (01:07:23):
But something that's very, very important for the
European tour, the DP World Touras it's now known.
You know it hasn't.
It's really suffered from theso called strategic alliance.
You know it is very much now asort of feeder circuit.
Success in the Ryder Cup isenormous for it, both in terms
of both on a financial basis butalso on a sort of status level.

(01:07:46):
To just to reaffirm that thereare some fantastic players
coming out of Europe.
Most of them might spend mostof their time playing in the
United States, but there's agood number of those guys that
play a number of events inEurope still as well, and Justin
Rose.
Justin Rose is obviously goingto be a Ryder Cup captain in the
future.
I'd like to see Luke Donaldscaptain again in at Beth Page.

(01:08:09):
I think he did a fantastic job.
I think it was a return to thatsort of level of meticulous,
you know, making sure that nostone was left unturned, that
approach that Paul McGinley andothers super classy to super he
was.
He was very classy.
I mean, he was always a classyplayer, wasn't he?
I mean, he swung the clubbeautifully, he always dressed

(01:08:29):
really nicely, he spoke reallywell.
He was just.
He's a he's a classy individual, and I think he's kind of like.

Speaker 1 (01:08:36):
You know, I always tell people I don't really worry
about presidents because, youknow, very, very rarely do I?
I think president decisions getto me.
You know, by the time they gothat far downstream and you know
, I just at the end of the day,want my president to be very
presidential, I want him to lookgood on TV and like, not offend
anybody, right?
So you know, Luke Donald, Ithink definitely, definitely did

(01:08:58):
that part of it, but obviouslyhad the substance to go with
that as well and I thought thathe was really classy.
I thought that the way that heanswered questions, even though
the questions were obviouslyvery American biased, I thought
he did a great job of backing uphis players and supporting his
team and he didn't know a way towhere he didn't tear down the

(01:09:20):
Americans to do it.
You know, he just found a wayto stay classy and above it the
whole time, which is no smallfeat given how high passions
obviously run at these things.

Speaker 2 (01:09:29):
Yeah, and he talked about creating a culture and
then allowing those players tostep into that culture and then
succeed and, and you know, haveeverything at their disposal to
be able to perform and execute,and that's what they did.
So I'd love to see Luke.
Luke Donald, I agree, I'vegiven two more years, yeah,
anyway, deuce, well, listen, itwas a great ride, the cup.
It was, you know, great.

(01:09:49):
Talking to you about it, I feellike, you know, I can't believe
it can be two more years untilwe have another one.
But you know, I just think back, finally, to what Jordan Spieth
said.
After whistling straights, hesaid you know, this was great.
We had a 1711 win, we gaveEurope a massive beatdown, but
this is unfinished business.
We need to go over to Europeand win in Europe in order for

(01:10:10):
this to really be seen to be adynasty.
And unfortunately, that dynastyfor Team USA, team USA, that
dynasty was exposed as beingsomething of a sham.

Speaker 1 (01:10:21):
Yeah, I just think it really is going to come down to
.
You know, there's going to haveto be a systematic change.
I mean, and that's what I thinkEuropean team did after
whistling straights and I reallythink that's what the US team
is going to have to do as well.
And you know, honestly, if weplay American golf right, which
is very soft and long and it'svery easy to throw out targets,

(01:10:44):
you know generally chalk wins onthat and I think whistling
straights is definitely one ofthose places to where, if the
wind and the weather doesn'tintervene, it's a pretty wide
and generous golf course.
So I'm not surprised that theAmericans had the big win there.
But you know, as we've talkedabout and as we will talk about
down the road, you know playinggolf in Europe is very different

(01:11:04):
than playing golf in the US andI don't think that many of your
top US players spend very muchtime other than maybe the open
championships.
You know playing golf in Europe.

Speaker 2 (01:11:14):
So I think in terms of real.
Here's a start for you, Duc.
Sorry to jump in.
Of the 12 players, take outBrooks Kepko, who obviously cut
his teeth on the European tourand the challenge tour before
that.
What about it?
Of the remaining 11 players,only three of them had ever
played a tournament on MainlandEurope.
I mean, there you go.

(01:11:35):
Do you take out the ScottishOpen and take out the Open
Championship, Both those takingplace not on Mainland Europe but
in the UK?
Yeah, Only three of them hadever played a tournament in
Mainland Europe.
And I think that what you knowwhat the European tour has done,
with tournaments being stagedin different countries,
different temperatures,different climates it does

(01:11:59):
produce a well-rounded golfer.
A golfer is used to compete ondifferent terrains and different
grass types and differentconditions, and you know, I
think that that makes for notonly a better-rounded golfer,
but often a better-roundedindividual, and I think that
that's what really came out atMarket so many this week.

Speaker 1 (01:12:20):
I don't disagree at all.
I mean, as an American, youknow, I want to beat on my chest
and scream USA, and likeshotgun a beer, but at the same
time, like you know, it's justtrue.
I mean, I think the Europeansoutclassed us.
I think that, honestly, I thinkthe American team was beat
before they ever showed up.
And that's a tough thing to sayand swallow as an American who

(01:12:41):
has pride in this.
But you know, my hat's off man.
I just I think that we werecaught with our pants down.
I think we thought it was goingto be another whistling
straights and you know, big badIan Polter and Sergio Garcia
aren't there to come out ofnowhere to save the European
team.
So you know, we're just goingto go over there and stop them.
And you know, I think you sawthe backbone of Sevi I'm not

(01:13:05):
sure if it was the spine or thelast shirt he wore that they put
in that locker, but it wassomething, man.
And you know, europe just kindof had this quiet determination
all week and it just kind offelt like, you know, you never
really lost sense of the feelingthat they were going to pull it
out in the end.
Yeah, amen to that.

Speaker 2 (01:13:23):
Anyway, I'm looking forward to talking.
You know we've got a number ofguests lined up for reaching the
turn, finding the turn Makingthe turn.
Yeah, we'll cut that.

Speaker 1 (01:13:38):
We'll get that.
No, you're fine.
No, we do, and you'reabsolutely right.
This has been great.
We actually shot another episodeas a primer for this whole
podcast, but then, with theRyder Cup happening and the
results, we just figured thatthis would be more fun and less
about me and Double D, whichmore people will probably find
entertaining.
So he is exactly right, and theMaking the Turn podcast will be

(01:14:00):
available wherever you get yourpodcast, as well as YouTube, and
we do look forward to havingsome amazing guests, most of
which we actually have alreadysigned up, but we're going to be
very secretive and not tell youabout.
But we're looking forward todebuting some amazing
conversations with some amazingpeople not necessarily all golf
people and not necessarily allpeople that you know, but,

(01:14:21):
generally speaking, we want tomake this a very fun
conversation for you to listento and maybe engage you with
some topics and people that youhaven't heard from before.
So, as always, it's been agreat time having Double D on
here with me.
I am the Dooch, as I am knownwhen I cross the pond, so we
really appreciate you tuning, Iam the Dooch, so thank you so

(01:14:43):
much.
Make sure to download thispodcast so you never miss your
next episode, and head on overto YouTube and subscribe to it
there as well.
So thanks again and until nexttime, keep grinding.

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