October 12, 2023 • 52 mins
Step into the captivating sphere of golf course architecture with us, where intricacies and subtleties transform a round of golf into a mesmerizing experience. We're thrilled to welcome Dave Sampson, the brilliant mind behind the celebrated Marco Simone Ryder Cup venue, who shares invaluable insights into the design process and the nail-biting anticipation leading to the event. We take the time to appreciate the nuances that enhance a golf course's charm and the hospitality units' indispensable role in creating an immersive atmosphere.
Drawing on data analysis, we plunge into a compelling discussion on the contrasts in American and European golf styles. From the perspective of a seasoned golf course architect like Dave Sampson, every course is a playground of strategic temptations and creative opportunities. We dissect the unique grass mix on the fairways and the terrain's elevation changes, discussing how these elements played into the Europeans' hands.
As we journey into the heart of the strategy and postmortem of the Ryder Cup, we unveil some hard truths about the American team's learning curve. We illuminate the strategies that worked, the ones that fell short, and the steps taken towards improvement, focusing on tournament readiness and course insight. Moreover, we relish the thrill of Marco Simone's Ryder Cup course design, accentuating the exhilaration injected by the elevation changes, raised greens, and substantial runoffs. Experience the magic of golf course architecture and strategy with us in this enthralling episode.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:06):
Hello and welcome to another episode of the Making
the Term podcast featuringDouble D and the Deut.
And we are really excitedbecause we are still coming off
an incredible Ryder Cup to,where we saw an amazing
performance by the European teamtaking down the American team.
But I think one of the starsthat has really emerged post
(00:28):
Ryder Cup has been Marco Simoneand the amazing venue that it
was for this incredible venue.
So I know, unfortunately there'sbeen a little bit of extra
press for the golf club and therecent weeks with the, it looked
like one of maybe the bighospitality tents are catching a
blaze and that certainly is oneway to take them down if you
don't want to use them again.
(00:49):
So I'm not sure if they weretrying to save a little time or
if it was an actual accident.
But long story short, we'revery fortunate because one of
the leading designers for MarcoSimone, mr Dave Samson from the
European Golf Design Company, iswith us and he is going to join
us and explain to us the fineart that is golf course
(01:09):
architecture, so that guys likemyself can understand, because
this is definitely where DoubleD has the upper hand on the Deut
.
So I'm going to let Danprobably give him a little
proper read in real quick andthen I'm going to let them kind
of take it away and I'll jump inwhen I can.
Speaker 2 (01:25):
Well, thanks, deut.
I mean, Dave, we spoke beforethe Ryder Cup.
You know there's beenincredible accolades for Marco
Simone.
He's been described as the bestRyder Cup venue of the century.
People have said can we havethe Ryder Cup there every year,
that it comes to Europe?
I mean, I just wanted to findout how you were feeling in the
(01:46):
build up to the event, becausethere is so much scrutiny now of
golf course architecture.
It's become a very hot buttontopic within the golf community
over the last five or 10 yearsand it's only getting sort of
hotter.
And for an event the size andmagnitude of the Ryder Cup, how
did it feel as being in yourshoes, as the man who designed
(02:08):
the course that was going tostage the Ryder Cup, in the lead
up to the event itself?
Speaker 3 (02:13):
Well, firstly, thanks a lot for having me on.
To be honest, I was nervous.
On top everything was calm, butthe legs beneath the water were
like a duck.
But I think that was probablytwo or three weeks before the
event.
But from the moment I got toMarco Simone and actually saw
(02:36):
the course, I was a lot calmer.
The course was in great shape.
Yeah, I don't know.
I suppose just because of thecondition that the course was in
, things felt calm andfortunately, the week was great.
(02:58):
So, yeah, I mean the weatherwas amazing, the staging that
Ryder Cup Europe had built, thatwas incredible.
And then the golf course playedas well as we had hoped.
Speaker 1 (03:15):
I gotta imagine.
You know you're in a uniqueposition, right?
So you're designing a golfcourse for Ryder Cup, so
essentially you're designing agolf course for the top
professional players in theworld, and these guys kind of
have a knack for making even thebest architects look maybe like
they're not up to snuff andthey go out there and shoot
(03:37):
ridiculously low scores and dosome things that you wouldn't
necessarily think is possible.
So my hat's off to you, becauseI think that the golf course
really has become a star in theaftermath.
And I think one of the thingsthat was really cool about the
golf course is it really wasn'tpart of the story but was the
whole story.
And it's a cool trick thatAugusta National kind of pulls
(04:01):
every year and they makereference to the golf course all
the time but nobody actuallydirectly references the golf
course.
And it's an amazing trick Iwant to call it because I don't
have a better vocabulary like mypartner but it's an amazing
trick that you seem to havepulled off making it the star.
That kind of stays hidden untilthe aftermath and the people
(04:21):
have the ability to kind of diveinto the details and the
analytics of it all.
Speaker 3 (04:27):
Well, thank you for those comments.
Yeah, really nice to hear.
Yeah, I mean, I think, marcus,I think what people you know,
you are for a rider cup course.
You're trying to create a lotmore than just the golf course.
You're actually trying tocreate the atmosphere.
You're trying to build in allthese and I mentioned it to Dan
(04:52):
on the other podcast.
You're trying to build in a lotof hospitality units.
You know there's so much morefactoring in just.
You know.
I mean, obviously it was ablank site but you're trying to.
You know, as I said to Dan,you're trying to find the best
golf course but you're alsotrying to factor in.
You know what are those bestholes going to be for the
spectator.
And you know, if we look backon, you know, some of the, some
(05:15):
of the comments from you knowItalian Opens and some of the
players who probably played inthe.
You know the pre-round whenthere's.
You know there was, in effect,no crowd similar to what you had
of the rider cup.
But you know an example youknow there are numerous uphill
approach shots, but you know weposition those greens with big
embankments behind.
(05:36):
So, for instance, 15 is a goodexample.
You know.
You say you, you, you, we weretrying to look at the site and
trying to use these features tocreate that, that atmosphere and
that experience, you know, forboth the spectators and the
players.
You know, and coming back to tothe routing, you know I always
(05:59):
felt one of the strengths of thegolf course was the central
area that we had, where we,where we managed to position
four golf holes, being the firstwhere obviously you've got all
the atmosphere that thatprovides in the pressure, and
then you had the seventh and thesixteenth and the seventeenth,
and you know it enabled thespectators to actually stay very
(06:21):
close.
So you weren't, actually youdidn't have to go too far away
and you'd always a match wouldalways be coming, coming through
it within half an hour or anhour if you decided to stay.
You know, in that particulararea and you know we always felt
that that central valley areawas which we, which we pitched
as the Coliseum to theFederation back in 2016, you
(06:44):
know, would be the real, thereal heart and the real hub of
the of the golf course and youknow, thankfully it proved to be
and and going.
You know also.
You know people have also, youknow there were a few comments
about.
You know 18 playing into thesetting sun and you know, look,
(07:05):
the clubhouse position.
You know that was fixed.
But you know the drama and the.
You know the amazing light thatactually got cast on 18 on
Friday and Saturday was wasreally good.
But you know, having the backnine over the more undulating,
interesting, dramatic land withthe views over Rome, we just
felt, you know that was so muchmore important than you know we
(07:29):
wouldn't normally have 18playing west towards the same
sun but you know we were willingto sacrifice that small little
bit to get, you know, those backnine.
Drivable path was short 1213.
Those those really key,interesting, you know match play
holes, I guess on the on theback of nine.
Speaker 2 (07:48):
It was an incredible course for match play.
I think that's what it turnedout to be.
There were so many swings.
When you look at Europe,whenever the US seemed to win, a
whole Europe would hit backstraight away.
I mean, I think it workedbeautifully as a match play golf
course.
You mentioned the 16th.
It must have been reallyexciting for you to see that,
(08:14):
ringed by spectators, thousandsupon thousands of people, almost
creating a completeencirclement of that hole,
because you can't have a dressrehearsal for the Ryder Cup.
You can have Italian opens, butit is on a completely different
scale.
I wanted to ask you when youwere on the grounds at Marcos
Simone for the week, you musthave been looking at so many
(08:35):
different things that you'dfactored into your design and
your routing.
What were the little details,if you like, that made you feel
really good and satisfied beyondthe golf?
Because there's so much thatwent into this, because it's
unlike any other event and, asyou said, the infrastructure is
so huge around it and that hasto bleed into how you design the
(08:57):
holes and how you route thegolf course.
So I just wondered what littledetails really succeeded for you
.
Speaker 3 (09:04):
Well, definitely from a spectator point of view, I
remember standing behind 7 Greenand you see all the fans coming
down the left-hand side of 7.
And they were like 15, 20 deep.
You got the raised hospitalityunit and it was a similar
feeling.
I stood behind the Green on orsat behind the Green on 16.
And I was very thankful forsome of these hospitality units
(09:26):
because it actually provided alittle bit of shade Because it
was so hot, but I did sit therewatching 17, well, most days,
from behind the Green and seeingall the fans come down.
I mean, and you're right,there's no dress rehearsal but
we have pictured it in our mindsfrom the moment it's been on
(09:50):
the drawing board and I supposethere was after on Sunday, once
the matches had been won, jeremySlesser, our managing director,
and I we were just stood on thetop floor of the hospitality
unit on 16, just watching allthe people coming back towards
the first for the trophycelebration.
(10:15):
So it was quite a nice, it was alovely moment.
Just the two of us have pouredour hearts and soul in Jeremy
from 2014, me from 2017, justyeah, it was a lovely moment
watching all the people and juststanding back and taking it all
in and thinking, yeah, it'sgone really well and we couldn't
(10:36):
have been obviously happier.
But yeah, I mean seeing all thespectators ringing the fairways
all the way around and knowingthat we would factor it in and
that's what.
We had the opportunity this wasprobably the first purpose
(10:56):
built Ryder Cup course andknowing that we had the
opportunity and grateful for thefact that we didn't mess it up,
I suppose no, I thought it wasawesome I mean even being an
American, and obviously it was alittle rough start and then it
didn't get much better fromthere.
Speaker 1 (11:15):
But I just thought that the golf course demanded
such quality golf, that and itreally raised I felt like it
really raised the level of playand it really demanded that out
of the players.
So I was telling Dan before wecame on, I actually operate an
indoor golf facility and we useTrackman and we're fortunate
(11:36):
enough to have Marco Simone onour Trackman.
So I actually played the golfcourse before coming on this
morning just to kind of get alittle more of a feel for the
golf course, prior to talking toyou, and the first thing that
kind of stuck out to me was it'slike, man, it's definitely the
feeling of a big park, becauseon the Trackman simulation you
don't have the hospitality unitsthere that kind of define the
(12:00):
holes.
So it's like you said, there'snot a lot of shade, there's not
a lot of trees, it's pretty open, but it feels like a big park.
But I think the thing that isreally interesting is there's a
lot of people that are gettinginto golf and they're not
getting in in the traditionalsense, meaning that they're not
going to green grass.
They're actually coming into anenvironment like mine, to where
(12:22):
they're starting withsimulation.
And the thing that's interestingabout simulated golf is that
the courses that do really wellare the courses that obviously
have the most elevation changeand topography and scenic things
like that.
So like, for an example, likeLehenge does great on Trackman
because you can really see itand you almost can kind of feel
(12:44):
it and it's a really coolexperience on Trackman.
But do you think, being a golfcourse architect, that, knowing
that there's a lot of people whoare falling in love with golf
that way, could you see inreality to where the
architecture gets a little moreanimated, let's say, and a
little more over the top, towhere it actually presents
(13:04):
itself better to a simulatedmodel and has a little more
defining characteristics?
Speaker 3 (13:11):
Interesting question.
I mean, you know we are.
You know Marcus Mone is anundulating site for sure and I
mean that posed a lot ofquestions and a lot of different
questions for the professionals.
And I think you know, if youcompare, I think on the European
tour there are probably moreundulating courses and maybe
(13:34):
we'll get into that later andthat's maybe one of the reasons
why Europe were a little bitmore successful.
But you know, part of our jobis, you know, we don't want to
be just moving land for the sakeof moving land.
You know we have aresponsibility to treat all
sites, you know, assympathetically as possible and
(13:55):
trying to find, you know, thebest holes that a particular
site gives you.
You know so it's you.
Yeah, I mean they do add a lotof interest from a simulator
point of view.
But you know like to say to aclient well, we're going to move
another you know million cubeof material for that particular
(14:21):
reason.
You know that could be aninteresting sell to a potential
owner.
Speaker 1 (14:28):
Yeah, I just think as we move into this I think I
think Dan kind of alluded to ita little bit you know,
especially in America, golfcourse architecture is more hot
topic because you're seeing moregolf courses designed to
attract and be a stand alonekind of destination, right.
So you know, if you think of aband and dunes, for example,
that's obviously a magnet, right, and it's just, it's a little
(14:52):
bit.
I like your answer a lot likeas someone who, like, believes
in sustainability and is alittle more traditional that way
.
You know, I definitely see thevalue in trying to be
sympathetic in your approachwith the land that's provided.
However, there's also theopposite of that and I don't
want to get into a comparingcontrast, but I happen to be at
(15:12):
the Ryder Cup at WhistlingStraits and that land was a flat
piece of land and now it isanything but.
And it's like I just wonder howmuch temptation there is from
these development groups tocreate that kind of attraction
so that they can spin it off andsell it and repackage it in a
simulation and things like that.
Speaker 3 (15:33):
Yeah, for sure, I think every client is different.
I think that will be attractiveto some clients and it won't be
attractive to others.
For sure, I definitely see yourpoint.
Any way that we can bring morepeople into the game is
(15:54):
definitely a positive.
Speaker 2 (15:56):
We need to be looking at every avenue that we can,
for sure, Dave, what were yourmain takeaways from watching the
golf In terms of how theplayers approached the challenge
of Marco Sermoni?
Was there anything thatsurprised you?
Was there anything that reallythought oh wow, I really didn't
expect that.
(16:17):
I know that one of the thingsthat we spoke about before the
Ryder Cup was the short par 4 onthe front line that you were
maybe hoping that wouldn't bepushed up.
Obviously, we can come on tosome of the data on that, which
I'm very keen to get youropinion on.
Was there anything that stoodout for you or that surprised
you about the way either sidetackled the test of Marco
(16:37):
Sermoni?
Speaker 3 (16:42):
I think, similar to Paris.
I just don't think theAmericans drove the ball as well
as Europe, the number of timesthey were pulling driver, when
the obvious play, it seemed, wasa three word into the wider
part of the fairway you playfrom there the penalty for
(17:05):
missing the rough.
It was so obvious.
It just felt that the Americans, and sometimes the Europeans as
well, got caught in that trap.
I've come back and I've onlymanaged to get to Saturday four
(17:26):
balls.
I'm trying to catch up andwatch it all again on TV.
I really felt that they justkept being tempted, as was the
hope and the wish from theEuropean captain that they would
pull the driver, and they keptpulling it.
Speaker 1 (17:49):
Dan and myself have talked about stylistically the
differences between American andEuropean golf quite a bit.
Actually, I've been fortunateenough to play both.
I quite prefer European golf.
I think it's much more artisticand fun and I definitely think
that the creativity has to behigher.
I think for Americans,especially young, competitive
(18:10):
Americans, the idea is that youhave to shoot 63 every time you
play golf.
That's the way that it's lookedat in the US.
I think that that breeds thisjust attacking mentality to
where you can't help yourselfbut hit the driver because you
always hit the driver.
We hit the driver here becausewe're trying to make a birdie.
We just can't get out of thatalmost archaic way of thinking.
(18:32):
I think that my man, double D,has some pretty good data here.
I know we've referenced it afew times and I would absolutely
love it if my man would talkabout some of this data, because
I know the word data getsthrown out there a lot.
I would like to really come onto some of the statistical
things that we actually haveseen when breaking this down.
(18:52):
Dan, if you wouldn't mind,maybe start teasing some of this
out and maybe we can get Daveto react to some of it and see
if maybe that gets a reactionand he maybe tips his cap that
that was part of the design.
Speaker 2 (19:06):
Well, I think, thanks to each man I think you
mentioned one thing there, dave,which was very significant
tempting Team America to takethe driver the Team Europe were
considerably better driving theball in every single session of
the Ryder Cup.
We're talking more than 20strokes gained better across the
Ryder Cup.
(19:26):
I mean that's huge.
I know there are a lot ofmatches, but that is an enormous
amount.
We put all the data from theRyder Cup through Clip and we've
looked at the shot quality, theaverage shot quality in every
distance being every skill andalso in the overall, and then
off the tee approach, around thegreen putting and then dived in
deeper than that.
(19:47):
You're absolutely right in thesense that the USA, team USA,
were tempted to take the driverand they paid the price because
there was grass.
Just tell us a little bit aboutthe rough at Marcus Monique,
because it was a different typeof grass, wasn't it Probably a
grass?
Speaker 1 (20:03):
maybe wrong.
Why delay?
They only said it 763 times yes, please tell us about the grass
.
Speaker 3 (20:10):
I kept calling it Paspelum.
It wasn't Paspelum, it's atotal Feski mix, I mean yeah,
right, okay.
Speaker 2 (20:17):
Well, that's that nailed.
Speaker 3 (20:19):
Yeah, it's Paspelum fairways and it's just a tall
Feski mix which is incrediblystrong and, as you say, a very
thick blade.
Speaker 2 (20:30):
Yeah.
And then you know, I think wealso mentioned elevation, which
I think is really interesting.
Us courses on the PGA tour,particularly, are considerably
less hilly than Marcus Monique,particularly the back nine.
I mean actually the back ninehad let me count them one, two,
three, four, five, six, seven,eight holes that have a greater
(20:52):
elevation change than 80% ofcourses on the PGA tour.
Well, so there were, andparticularly for approach shots.
So you know, we looked at, wewere able, in the build up to
the rider cup, take all the clipdata for all 24 players and
Europe had a clear advantage,both playing uphill and downhill
.
And I think that also is veryinteresting in terms of feeding
(21:15):
into your pairings, because thepairings, I think in some ways
the European pairings, mighthave been a surprise to some
people, whereas I don't thinkthere were any surprises in the
American approach, which was,you know, justin Thomas is going
to play with Jordan Spieth,patrick Cantley is going to play
with Xander Schoffley, you knowScotty Schoffler is probably
going to play with Sam Burns.
You know it was sort of writtenbefore the event, whereas it
(21:40):
feels like there was a lot moreattention to analytics and much
more attention to actually thestrength, the skill set required
on certain holes, whichobviously comes into its own in
four sums.
Speaker 3 (21:51):
Yeah, I mean, I suppose it's quite difficult.
I mean, if you are Zach Johnson, you've got, you've got two of
those pairings in CantleySchoffley and Jordan Spieth and
Justin Thomas.
You know they've proven overnumerous presidents cups and
rider cups to be successful.
(22:14):
So it would have been a prettyballsy call for him to say, oh
well, I'm actually going tosplit them up.
But your point about you knowthe data and the stats on this,
you know, relative to MarcusSimone, is a good one.
But yeah, I think it would havebeen ballsy for Zach Johnson to
(22:37):
split.
Speaker 2 (22:37):
It would have been more ballsy to throw.
Speaker 1 (22:41):
Jordan Spieth at foot , driver away and hit three wood
over the water.
I think that was probably theballsy call?
Speaker 3 (22:49):
Yeah, I think.
But he, you know that wasn'tpicked up in the press
conference after because thatwas all Capgate on 18, which
became the main story.
But if it wasn't you know, joeLeCarvo walking around with
waving his cap, then I thinkZach Johnson would have had a
whole load of differentquestions to answer that
(23:09):
Saturday evening.
Speaker 1 (23:10):
I'm going to be honest yeah, I'm sorry, real
quick, hang on, because this isan interesting topic, but it
just goes in.
It's like you know, I think ifyou, if you look at the data and
and we have so much of it itwould make even the math who in
the world blush.
But really, when you, when youlook at it, it's just there's
(23:32):
there's case point after casepoint for the fact that the
Europeans Were very, very wellprepared.
They had that, they understoodwhat the task was.
They probably went out therewith the smartest NASA type
people in the world to figureout the elevation changes, with
the degrees of Temperature, withthe relative humidity, like
they had it figured out right,they did their homework and I
(23:55):
just felt like a lot of thestorylines to your point that
were picked up and taken out ofMarco Simone were, you know,
news newspaper trash, like Ijust felt like they were all
tabloids and it was just.
It felt like they were runninga lot of interference and a lot
of cover for the fact that ourcaptain just showed up with a
team that was unprepared andJust like the military generally
(24:18):
, when you start pointing thefinger, you start at the top and
obviously we have to start withthe captain, and I just think
that, no matter how you look atit, they were completely
unprepared and and they gotshown what a prepared team could
do when they were motivated.
Speaker 3 (24:30):
Yeah, I think it's, it's.
It's interesting a few of thelessons from from the Gulf
National.
They obviously didn't, theydidn't seem, it doesn't seem
that those were learned.
You know, like only one playerplayed played in Paris before
that event, that was JustinThomas.
Not one player plays played inItalian open, there's been three
so far.
When I said to Dan on theprevious part, I think you know
(24:53):
Playing a course and playing acourse in tournament conditions,
you know, even though it wasstroke play, you know that's
gonna help, for sure You'regonna.
You're gonna know, know thecourse better, you're gonna know
where the the better misses andthe wrong misses.
So I, you know, and obviously,the you know no competitor golf
of five weeks is, you know, isthere's also a nuance to a golf
(25:16):
course that you, I don't know.
Speaker 1 (25:18):
I like to think that some people you know designed
for these things.
But my favorite thing to try toexplain to some people is when
you look at number 12 at AugustaNational, you know one of the
most famous holes of golf in theworld.
I don't know if it wasintentional, I don't know that
it was, but the thing that makesthat hole so iconic is the
vortex of wind that's createdbehind that green.
(25:38):
It literally creates a cyclonelike this on that green because
you've got 11 coming in this way, you've got 15 coming in from
the other way, and then you'vegot a massive backdrop behind
that hole with the land shootingstraight upward and it just
creates a cyclone.
And that's why Tiger and a lotof guys have figured out that if
you catch it the correct way,spinning this way, if you aim
(26:01):
left, it pulls the ball intowards the green Versus hitting
the right side of that cyclonewhere it spits it out right,
which is where the raised Creekis.
Yeah, so it.
It's understanding thosenuances right and I don't know
how.
I'm sure that things like thatare considered in the design
process, but you have to learnthose for yourself through the
plane for sure.
Speaker 3 (26:21):
So I come back to the , the, the, the Zach Johnson and
Speed thing on the team on 16.
They were actually quite, quiteright in that.
You know, to actually get intothat pin you had to come in it
from a different angle.
So we're Justin Thomas, theleft is, drive it was.
You had a pretty, reallydifficult up and down because of
(26:43):
where that particular pin is.
So that you know we are and andand that Any pin on the on the
right, the far right hand sideof 16, you're actually better
off coming in with a pitchingwedge from the fairway to get as
it is, there's a, there's a,there's a like a knob that sort
of protects all those pins onthe right.
So their thinking was actuallypretty sound.
(27:04):
I think he just pushed, pushthe tee shot, but yeah.
And then going back to four ballSaturday, the only people who
actually played 11 well Were theAmerican team, where they
actually hit three word or fiveword of the tee and to that
particular pin.
The play was to actually Throwa wedge from a 90 yards, pass
(27:27):
the pin and spin it back,whereas a lot of the Europeans
got caught up.
But they were, they were behindon their matches there were
three or four behind so theyfelt like they had to to chase
it.
But the actual play to thatparticular pin was was where the
Americans played it.
So I think you know they gotbetter and better, as you know,
like they couldn't get too muchworse after the first couple of
(27:50):
four sums Sessions.
But the more they got to knowthe golf course, I think, the
more the better they played it,I think.
And and they were obviouslygetting more into tournament,
tournament, play, tournament fit, so to speak.
Speaker 2 (28:03):
That's a really good point, dave, because actually
that's born out in the clip data, you know.
You can see that the marginbetween the two sides in four
sums and four balls just startsto diminish as the week goes on
and, like you say, they learnthe course.
I mean the, the, I mean it'sjust a par threes where it's
extraordinary, I mean a wholeseven on On Friday you're at one
(28:24):
, at seven times, at five times.
Sorry, when it five times onFriday.
Well, I mean games well out ofeight out of eight games.
They won it five times and theywere 30.
They were 33 percent Better onpar three.
Tee shots on the four sums inday one.
Again, you know whether that'sa mixture of Tournament
(28:46):
readiness, tournamentpreparation, tournament hardness
and course knowledge, but thosetwo things.
And, to your point, theyobviously did learn the course
and they started to playthemselves into form.
But by that stage they'recompletely by the eight, behind
the eight ball.
Speaker 1 (29:00):
Yeah, yeah, kind of like watching a professional
band right, like I mean thecomment that I was, I'm glad you
said that double D but it'skind of like watching a band
that doesn't really want to bethere and like the first three
songs Like they're kind of likewarm-up songs in there.
You know that you can seethey're maybe drinking that red
cup a little Later into the show, but like they eventually get
(29:22):
it going and they put on a greatshow, but the first few it.
And I felt the same way aboutthe American team and I think
that the data definitelysupports the fact that, once
again, had they been prepared,we would have saw probably much
more what we saw on Sundayversus what we saw earlier in
the week.
Speaker 3 (29:40):
But I think it was also a master stroke from them
to switch, you know, the foursums and the four balls on the
Friday Come.
You know they've obviouslyFactored in the fact that
there's no, you know, there maybe some, some rustiness from the
Americans and then, and thenplaying them on Friday morning
and Saturday morning, first twoof the three sessions at
Europe's strongest, you know,sort of match play.
Speaker 1 (30:05):
Well, I was an American.
We don't know that there'sanother format other than stroke
play.
Dave, like, honestly, like Ipride myself on somewhat
understanding things and whenit's like four sums and four
balls, like I have to think alittle bit like, okay, which one
are we play?
Don't play it in the US.
And honestly, I think if youlooked at and this is a little
(30:26):
different for anotherconversation but if you looked
at, you know this massive influxof new golfers that we have
coming into the industry, intothe game.
When you look at that, I would,I would argue that most of them
probably don't even realizethat there's an format other
than stroke play.
I mean, it's really kind ofalarming at how ill-prepared we
are for that format.
Speaker 2 (30:47):
Yeah, we looked at in the in the build-up to the
rider cup at Clip's.
You know we looked at the mostcommonly hit approach shots at
Marcus Simone in the last two orthink or three Italian opens
and they've been played between180 and 208, 220 yards both from
the fairway and the tee andEurope had eight of the top ten
performers from both sides atthat distance.
(31:09):
Again, it's sort of like, youknow, tempting, tempting the,
the Americans to pull the driver, whereas actually, you know,
even by laying back and having alonger second shot which was
something we discussed in thebuild-up, dave, you know that
really played into to Europe'sstrengths.
Speaker 3 (31:25):
Yeah, I mean the captain didn't do you know too
much to the golf course, butthere were Definitely some areas
where, well you know, therewere definitely some fairways
that were narrowed up to to tryand Maximize that perceived
strength in Europe's game andobviously this the the data
(31:47):
proves that they are stronger atthose distances.
Speaker 2 (31:52):
Yeah, they really are .
I mean, I think that you knowyou look right the way across
across the data.
I mean in approach Europe, 140to 160 yards were better in four
out of five sessions.
160 to 180 yards better inthree out of five.
200 to 224 out of five, 220 to244 out of five.
(32:13):
So that's you know, that's abig edge right the way across
the bulk of approach shots thatwere hit, yeah, at Marco Simone
and it sort of all fits into mytheory which was Marco Simone
was Europe's 13th, 13th man, Imean obviously he had this he
had the Seville locker in therein the team changing room, but
you know, maybe it was afterSeville was.
(32:34):
It was Europe's 14th band then.
Speaker 3 (32:36):
Yeah well, I mean, look, I think a lot of you know
I, yeah, a lot of credits got togo to to the captain and the
vice captains for, you know,coming up with a strategy and
and, as you know this, thestrategy did work at in Paris
and you know it's no, it wasn'ttoo much of a surprise that the
(32:58):
that strategy was going to beimplemented at Marcus Simone,
but, yeah, it definitely worked.
Yeah, and then, as you say, thenumbers proven and I've seen
some of your, your, your chartnumbers here and, yeah, some of
the numbers are literally offthe staggering, the difference,
the difference is just yeah soif we were uh, if we were On the
(33:22):
back side all the way we were,we had one project left.
Speaker 1 (33:25):
So let's say that we're 40 years from now and you
are designing your rider cup.
Um, finale, this is the, thebig one, this is the one that
you're going to be rememberedfor, and we're 40 years from now
.
So we've played quite a fewrider cups between here and
there.
Tell me about what you couldforesee this golf course looking
(33:47):
like.
I'm curious.
Where does the golf coursearchitecture Um kind of thinking
be the game going in the future?
Speaker 3 (33:57):
Well, that, that's a very interesting question and
we're the rider cup.
So this is for the rider cup.
I think well, well, I mean youyou can't foresee what will
happen so many years down theline.
I think I think what we havecreated, um at Marcus Simone,
the, you know the, the spectatorand the player experience, Um,
(34:22):
you know you, you would look todo similar things because
obviously it's, it's proved tobe, you know, a big hit.
Um, I think you know the, youknow like, because the the
elevation change gave usopportunities to have, you know,
raised greens and big runoffsand Angulations in the green.
(34:43):
I think you know that's quiteimportant because it engages the
spectator so much more becausethey are Watching these balls
and you know like, let's say, 10, for instance, for the big
false front, you know, if theball doesn't get there, you know
they cheering as the ball goesdown.
I think that's all part ofrider cup and and and an
atmosphere and getting you knowpeople involved and I think, um,
(35:05):
you know rider club, rider cups, match, play golf, having half
power holes is is important andI think that that's, you know,
birdie, you know, easy, for youknow, you know, you know half
power holes.
So, um, I think that's.
You know, incredibly importantfor for for match play golf.
So you know, right now, youknow, as we know, there will be
(35:28):
lots of change, but right nowyou'd look to do, you know, try
and do something similar andkeep the player and the fan fan
engaged, and I think that'sthat's an important thing with
rider cup.
Speaker 2 (35:38):
I think, I think you know he said something really
interesting there.
I mean about the half powerholes and there were plenty at
Marcus Mane, and that's whatmade it such a great match play
course.
It brought the whole notion ofrisk and reward right up front,
uh, in the players minds andalso in the minds of the
Spectator on the viewer at home.
That's what made it soenjoyable and so gripping.
But the other thing I think isreally key is that Even though
(36:01):
the course measured what?
7250 yards not not hugely longby modern standards yet it put a
lot of clubs, different clubs,in the players hands, which I
think is it's really interesting.
So that I think it's that thisalmost follows on from the
duchies question about you knowwhen is golf going, you know are
we going to have when we saystadium courses, you know
(36:21):
courses with literally Hugepermanent stadiums sort of built
into them, but also in terms ofyou know, obviously, the
distance debate we could talkabout all day and all night.
But what marco simone showedfor my money was that even at
7250 yards which is a long wayin in if I was playing it, but
for these guys not a long waythey were asked to hit a lot of
(36:42):
different shots with a lot ofdifferent clubs.
Speaker 3 (36:45):
Yeah, no, I, I mean, Well, when, when the jack
johnson went out there over ayear ago, he, he made that, that
statement that's.
You know, marcus, money's goingto test every club in their bag
, which you know, as anarchitect, you, you are looking
to do, you're looking to poseall those different questions.
(37:06):
Yes, you know the elevationposes questions.
Um, you know, there wasobviously uphill, downhill, side
hill, shots, left to right,right to left.
You know, and I think, as anarchitect, you are looking to to
try and ask, you know, theplayer and especially the
professional player.
You know this course is rightand Marcus money is always going
(37:26):
to be known for For hosting ariding cap.
So and and we, you know, wewere all obviously trying to
Trying to do that and, as yousay, yeah, one of the one of the
things I take away from thisweek is, you know, there were,
there were players that probablyHadn't hit a five iron or put a
five iron in their bag for ayear and they were actually
(37:47):
having to play these, play withthese clubs again.
So I think that's that's greatand you know, you know All we
can try and do is pose as manyquestions as we can, and you
know that's that provides Um anexcitement level for for the
spectator and the and the viewerwatching on tv.
Speaker 1 (38:06):
Well, without trying to get into too much flattery,
um, I really think that you knowthat shows when we, when we
talk about, like, the distancedebate, I get really frustrated
with because it's it's totallytheoretical.
Uh, because it totally dependson where we're playing, right,
like there's a real distanceproblem in Denver, colorado,
(38:27):
like, yeah, we hit it too farthere, but like when we go down
to Florida and the swamps andthe sea level, you know, all of
a sudden, 7200 yards feels like78.
So it's like I really feel likewhat happens in this distance
debate is that, for lack ofbetter terminology, you know, a
lot of the designers go outthere and they just kind of like
it's a flat golf course andokay, well, we can't figure out
(38:49):
a way to make shots playdifferently, so, okay, we'll
just make it 8 000 yards andthat's not really helping
anybody.
You know, I don't think thatthe the general public out there
playing golf enjoys it.
I don't think the members ofthat club enjoy it and I know
that the tour guys don't enjoyplaying an 8 000 yard golf
course because it's just it'snot Creative and it just feels
like it's you're actuallyworking at it instead of playing
(39:10):
it.
So, um, I applaud you because Ithink that there are ways to be
creative and strategic With howyou force players to play
different shots off at ease.
Speaker 3 (39:21):
Yeah, no, no, well, thank you.
I mean, yeah, it's uh, yeahit's it.
Yeah, as I said it was, it wasjust great to see these guys
hitting Different, differentclubs, you know, and.
But, uh, you know, withmarcusimony We've also tried to
factor in the fact that it'sstill a member's club, you know,
(39:43):
and, and yes, it is a difficultcourse, but I think people will
go to marcusimony and go well,I'm playing a rider cup course,
so I'm expecting it to be, youknow, a level of difficulty or a
higher level of difficulty.
But you know, we always, wealways do try hard on the
simulator.
Speaker 1 (39:58):
I mean, not very many golf courses are hard on a
trackman simulator, but I'll,I'll be damned if marcusimony
isn't a difficult track on thesimulator.
Man like Even probably, I meanI think the white or you know,
quote-unquote the member keyright is what?
6800 yards, I think is what Iplayed it from earlier.
Is that about right?
Speaker 3 (40:17):
Yeah, that's sort of the middle t68, but the sort of
the normal yellow members.
T was sort of 63, 62, 60.
Okay, got you.
Speaker 1 (40:25):
Yeah, but I mean, it's just it feels like a lot
longer like that, that shot onone.
You know, I think the and Idon't know once again, I'm
playing it on a simulator, right, but it's see, I know that that
green in reality is a littlebit higher, I think.
Then the t box right it's alittle bit elevated.
Yeah but it plays way moreelevated because the t shot is
actually downhill right and thenit kind of goes back up the
(40:47):
hill.
Speaker 3 (40:48):
The, the landing area in the t are similar-ish, but
there's a stream in front of thet's which make you feel like
you're going Down and up alittle bit but that's not a shot
.
Speaker 1 (40:58):
Plays a lot longer than you would think it would
normally play, you know, I mean,it's things like that that you
constantly see throughout thatround.
Speaker 3 (41:06):
Yeah, yeah, but I mean that, that's you know.
I mean I said this to Dan.
I mean the elevation change weactually saw was a massive
positive on this side,especially when you, you know
you're trying to factor in thespectators and the fans and what
you can give them.
You know, and and and thedifference between Paris and and
you know, marcus Simone, isParis had like embankments On
(41:31):
both sides of only one goal fall.
So, you know, spectator got,you got to see a lot of
spectators around one hole, butthey only got to see that
particular, whereas MarcusSimone, you know you had so much
, you could see numerous goalfalls and I think that added to
you know the, the experience alot.
Speaker 2 (41:49):
Dave, can I ask you the Ryder Cup is a huge process.
You've been working on thisproject for many years, but
European Golf Design, thecompany you work for, has a long
history with the Ryder Cup and,obviously, with the European
Tour.
Can I ask you what's next?
Obviously, everything keepsmoving forwards, and planning
(42:10):
and the processes for the nexthome European Cup for Team
Europe are well underway.
But what's next for you, interms of both the Ryder Cup but
also other projects that youmight be really excited about or
really passionate about at themoment?
Speaker 3 (42:26):
Well, the next Ryder Cup is a day of manner in
Ireland.
That's already been well newly,I think there was a golf course
there before and it's beenredone by Fezio and Tom Marzell
from Fezio Design, so there willbe work on that, but that will
be a relationship between themand Ryder Cup Europe.
(42:49):
European Golf Design won't beinvolved in that project, but
there are numerous candidatesfor 31 and 35 that the company
is involved in, but obviouslynothing to really be said on
that at this stage.
(43:09):
So yeah, I mean there arepossibly a couple of those
projects knocking around, butyeah, I mean I've got some
really interesting projects One27-hole project in Jakarta,
which is a really interestingpart of the world to go to, been
(43:30):
there a couple of times.
In terms of other new projects,there's one in Spain, there's
another one in Croatia, sothere's a lot on the drawing
board.
We're going back to Crom Susierup in the Swiss Alps and next
week we're starting constructionthere again doing a bit more
(43:52):
work.
Speaker 1 (43:52):
So there's a lot going on Elevation in the Swiss
Alps.
I'm curious that one is 1500meters, that golf course.
Speaker 3 (44:00):
I've played that golf course.
Speaker 2 (44:02):
I've played Crom Montana.
It's quite a spectacular venue,and you talked about playing
golf in Denver.
The ball does fly a certaindistance further up in the Swiss
Alps.
I mean, there's one morequestion, dave, if I don't mind
asking me.
You're rewinding all the way tothe beginning.
You're now at a point probablyin your career and I might be
wrong here, but where all theaccolades are going to come your
(44:25):
way.
You've had this incrediblesuccess with Marcus Mone, very
well deserved.
Your start in golf coursearchitecture was very similar to
Alistair McKenzie's, was it not, in the sense that you
submitted a whole design to acompetition and then that really
gave you your start in thebusiness, did it not?
Speaker 3 (44:44):
Yeah, that's right Now.
I was back in 2002.
I was in South Africa finishingmy building architecture thesis
and my grandfather wasseriously ill.
He lived in Cardiff, so I cameover and said my goodbyes and
then on the way back, there wasa design, a whole competition in
(45:05):
Golf World Magazine which theywere running in conjunction with
European golf design, and I putsome entries in the postbox
that he throw, and it was justthe lucky winner, I suppose.
But then, so that was end of2002.
And then, yeah, got a job atEGD in November 2004.
So I've been there 19 years.
(45:27):
But yeah, it was definitely thefoot in the door.
That's very lucky.
Speaker 1 (45:37):
I can't imagine the amount of skills that it would
require to be a golf coursearchitect.
I mean, I was kind of, really Iwas nervous.
This is the first podcast I'vereally been nervous about,
because Double D has to do itpretty often, but we get a swing
guy on here and he feels alittle out of his element.
But I really feel out of myelement and I've played a lot of
(45:57):
golf courses, and even somereally famous ones that are
really well rated.
But if you really drilled medown and said, hey, what do you
like about that golf course?
It generally is tied prettyclosely to what I shoot.
You know what I mean.
It's not because of the actualgolf course, it's more how my
experience was there.
So I would imagine like it'sdifficult to design a golf
(46:19):
course that you feel has abackbone and has some ethics.
You know what I mean.
It doesn't just roll over butat the same time isn't one of
those golf courses that youcreate to where everybody hates
it because it's just a kick inthe teeth.
Nobody wants to go and play it,because there's a ton of those
out there too, and I think thatif you look at those golf
courses economically, they tendto really struggle because it's
(46:40):
just not an enjoyable experience.
Speaker 3 (46:42):
No, I mean yeah, I mean so we are very fortunate
that we get to work on a lot ofprojects.
I mean obviously tournamentprojects and that's obviously
through our association with theEuropean Tour.
But on every project we'retrying to factor in the main
client to somebody that's got ahigh handicap and you've got to
(47:03):
try and make them as fun forthem as possible because they
are your return customer andyou've got to make them
enjoyable for them.
But you're obviously trying toprovide enough challenge and
strategic interest in a golfcourse so that they you know,
that's that yeah.
Speaker 2 (47:25):
Which course have you played, dave?
That sort of you just keepcoming back to thinking, wow,
that's got so much strategicinterest to it, that's got so
many interesting design elementsand it's playable.
Which one for you?
And it doesn't?
You know, obviously there'ssome legendary courses out there
, but is there one for you thatsort of captures so many of the
(47:49):
elements that you value in golfcourse architecture that you
know, if you just had to playone place again and again and
again through that architectslens, which one would it be?
Speaker 3 (47:59):
Well, I'm going to be a bit boring here,
unfortunately, but it's.
I think it comes back toMichael's point of every time
I've played it, I've played itparticularly well, but that's
the old course that's in.
Yeah, I just, you know you canplay it a million different ways
, you know, depending on thewind, depending, you know you
just there's so much interest inthat place and I think the
(48:22):
first time you actually go thereyou're just a little
underwhelmed by the place.
But then the more times youwalk around there, the more you
see every time you go, you go.
Speaker 1 (48:32):
I can attest to that.
I can attest to the exact thing.
I was there for the 150th andif it hadn't like, I remember
walking.
I think I got in Monday thatweek and I remember going out
and working with a player thatmorning and then I remember
walking back, like into town toget dinner before I left to go
to my Airbnb and I just rememberthinking like man, if it wasn't
(48:54):
for the tournament, I don'tthink that place is all that
Like, I don't get it.
Like am I missing?
Like I spent my whole lifetrying to get here and I don't.
But by the end of the week Ijust really, really, really sell
in love with the place.
And it's their point.
There's something that there'sthat interest.
The wind is different, thewhole place completely different
, and it's not just the fullshot either.
(49:17):
The short game is incrediblydifferent day to day.
Speaker 3 (49:20):
Yeah, and I mean, obviously you know it comes back
to you know some of the thingswe try to do at Marcus and Ernie
.
It's like, depending on certainpin positions, you play the
golf hole differently.
Strategically, you plot yourway differently to certain pins.
And I think you know St Andrews, you do that, do that a lot.
So I think that's the thing.
Speaker 2 (49:38):
Is that about a great course?
That it reveals itself, doesn'tit, With each playing.
I mean, I think so many peoplehave had the same experience at
the old course.
First time it's like, oh really, what's, what's all this about?
But then, every time you havethe good fortune to play, it
just reveals more of itsintricacy, more of its genius,
more of the nuances, untilyou're completely intoxicated by
(49:59):
it.
And you only have to look atthe impact it's had and the
influence, how it's influencedyou know, generations of great
golf course architects and thethe esteem it's held in by the
very greatest players in in thehistory of the game to you know,
to see why.
I think that's just the perfectanswer for me from a golf
course architect.
Speaker 1 (50:21):
Hey Dave, by the way safe and boring.
Speaker 3 (50:24):
I wanted to let you know, dave.
Speaker 1 (50:26):
Dan got his job on this podcast by revealing
himself, so just just be carefulwhen you start throwing that
word around.
Speaker 2 (50:33):
I'm not.
Yeah, I'm not going to tell youwhat I'm wearing on the bottom
half, but yeah, it's, it's, it'sa great place.
Well, dave, listen, thank you.
Thank you so much for your time.
I'm I'm really thrilled for you, as you know, and I've been
sort of forwarding you all thethe incredible plaudits and
accolades that people have beenwriting on social media, and I'm
(50:54):
just thrilled for you that itturned out so well and it was
such a great course.
So thank you so much for yourtime and thank you for joining
us today.
Speaker 3 (51:02):
Thank you for those kind words and thanks for having
me on.
Speaker 1 (51:06):
Yeah, it's been a great pleasure, and, from
somebody who definitely doesn'tbelong in this conversation, I
really appreciated it because Ithink it's been.
It's been really interesting tolearn and think about some of
this.
I mean the the scale of a RyderCup is obviously massive and
huge.
Obviously an enormousundertaking by you and your team
and everybody involved.
But even as the losing side, Istill have to tip my hat,
(51:29):
because it was an incrediblevenue and I think that it
definitely displayed the bestthat everybody had to offer.
So my hats off.
I thank Dave for joining us onthis episode of making the turn.
As always, double D came inwith a lot of facts and a lot of
good notes, so I alwaysappreciate having a good partner
that bells me out, even whenI'm not the expert of the topic.
(51:50):
So, thanks to Double D, thanksto Dave once again, and if you
haven't already, make sure todownload this podcast, and if
you haven't found it already,you also can find the full video
on YouTube by searching makingthe turn go podcast.
So that does it for us.
Thanks so much for tuning inand until next time, keep riding
.
Hello and welcome to another episode of the Making
the Term podcast featuringDouble D and the Deut.
And we are really excitedbecause we are still coming off
an incredible Ryder Cup to,where we saw an amazing
performance by the European teamtaking down the American team.
But I think one of the starsthat has really emerged post
(00:28):
Ryder Cup has been Marco Simoneand the amazing venue that it
was for this incredible venue.
So I know, unfortunately there'sbeen a little bit of extra
press for the golf club and therecent weeks with the, it looked
like one of maybe the bighospitality tents are catching a
blaze and that certainly is oneway to take them down if you
don't want to use them again.
(00:49):
So I'm not sure if they weretrying to save a little time or
if it was an actual accident.
But long story short, we'revery fortunate because one of
the leading designers for MarcoSimone, mr Dave Samson from the
European Golf Design Company, iswith us and he is going to join
us and explain to us the fineart that is golf course
(01:09):
architecture, so that guys likemyself can understand, because
this is definitely where DoubleD has the upper hand on the Deut
.
So I'm going to let Danprobably give him a little
proper read in real quick andthen I'm going to let them kind
of take it away and I'll jump inwhen I can.
Speaker 2 (01:25):
Well, thanks, deut.
I mean, Dave, we spoke beforethe Ryder Cup.
You know there's beenincredible accolades for Marco
Simone.
He's been described as the bestRyder Cup venue of the century.
People have said can we havethe Ryder Cup there every year,
that it comes to Europe?
I mean, I just wanted to findout how you were feeling in the
(01:46):
build up to the event, becausethere is so much scrutiny now of
golf course architecture.
It's become a very hot buttontopic within the golf community
over the last five or 10 yearsand it's only getting sort of
hotter.
And for an event the size andmagnitude of the Ryder Cup, how
did it feel as being in yourshoes, as the man who designed
(02:08):
the course that was going tostage the Ryder Cup, in the lead
up to the event itself?
Speaker 3 (02:13):
Well, firstly, thanks a lot for having me on.
To be honest, I was nervous.
On top everything was calm, butthe legs beneath the water were
like a duck.
But I think that was probablytwo or three weeks before the
event.
But from the moment I got toMarco Simone and actually saw
(02:36):
the course, I was a lot calmer.
The course was in great shape.
Yeah, I don't know.
I suppose just because of thecondition that the course was in
, things felt calm andfortunately, the week was great.
(02:58):
So, yeah, I mean the weatherwas amazing, the staging that
Ryder Cup Europe had built, thatwas incredible.
And then the golf course playedas well as we had hoped.
Speaker 1 (03:15):
I gotta imagine.
You know you're in a uniqueposition, right?
So you're designing a golfcourse for Ryder Cup, so
essentially you're designing agolf course for the top
professional players in theworld, and these guys kind of
have a knack for making even thebest architects look maybe like
they're not up to snuff andthey go out there and shoot
(03:37):
ridiculously low scores and dosome things that you wouldn't
necessarily think is possible.
So my hat's off to you, becauseI think that the golf course
really has become a star in theaftermath.
And I think one of the thingsthat was really cool about the
golf course is it really wasn'tpart of the story but was the
whole story.
And it's a cool trick thatAugusta National kind of pulls
(04:01):
every year and they makereference to the golf course all
the time but nobody actuallydirectly references the golf
course.
And it's an amazing trick Iwant to call it because I don't
have a better vocabulary like mypartner but it's an amazing
trick that you seem to havepulled off making it the star.
That kind of stays hidden untilthe aftermath and the people
(04:21):
have the ability to kind of diveinto the details and the
analytics of it all.
Speaker 3 (04:27):
Well, thank you for those comments.
Yeah, really nice to hear.
Yeah, I mean, I think, marcus,I think what people you know,
you are for a rider cup course.
You're trying to create a lotmore than just the golf course.
You're actually trying tocreate the atmosphere.
You're trying to build in allthese and I mentioned it to Dan
(04:52):
on the other podcast.
You're trying to build in a lotof hospitality units.
You know there's so much morefactoring in just.
You know.
I mean, obviously it was ablank site but you're trying to.
You know, as I said to Dan,you're trying to find the best
golf course but you're alsotrying to factor in.
You know what are those bestholes going to be for the
spectator.
And you know, if we look backon, you know, some of the, some
(05:15):
of the comments from you knowItalian Opens and some of the
players who probably played inthe.
You know the pre-round whenthere's.
You know there was, in effect,no crowd similar to what you had
of the rider cup.
But you know an example youknow there are numerous uphill
approach shots, but you know weposition those greens with big
embankments behind.
(05:36):
So, for instance, 15 is a goodexample.
You know.
You say you, you, you, we weretrying to look at the site and
trying to use these features tocreate that, that atmosphere and
that experience, you know, forboth the spectators and the
players.
You know, and coming back to tothe routing, you know I always
(05:59):
felt one of the strengths of thegolf course was the central
area that we had, where we,where we managed to position
four golf holes, being the firstwhere obviously you've got all
the atmosphere that thatprovides in the pressure, and
then you had the seventh and thesixteenth and the seventeenth,
and you know it enabled thespectators to actually stay very
(06:21):
close.
So you weren't, actually youdidn't have to go too far away
and you'd always a match wouldalways be coming, coming through
it within half an hour or anhour if you decided to stay.
You know, in that particulararea and you know we always felt
that that central valley areawas which we, which we pitched
as the Coliseum to theFederation back in 2016, you
(06:44):
know, would be the real, thereal heart and the real hub of
the of the golf course and youknow, thankfully it proved to be
and and going.
You know also.
You know people have also, youknow there were a few comments
about.
You know 18 playing into thesetting sun and you know, look,
(07:05):
the clubhouse position.
You know that was fixed.
But you know the drama and the.
You know the amazing light thatactually got cast on 18 on
Friday and Saturday was wasreally good.
But you know, having the backnine over the more undulating,
interesting, dramatic land withthe views over Rome, we just
felt, you know that was so muchmore important than you know we
(07:29):
wouldn't normally have 18playing west towards the same
sun but you know we were willingto sacrifice that small little
bit to get, you know, those backnine.
Drivable path was short 1213.
Those those really key,interesting, you know match play
holes, I guess on the on theback of nine.
Speaker 2 (07:48):
It was an incredible course for match play.
I think that's what it turnedout to be.
There were so many swings.
When you look at Europe,whenever the US seemed to win, a
whole Europe would hit backstraight away.
I mean, I think it workedbeautifully as a match play golf
course.
You mentioned the 16th.
It must have been reallyexciting for you to see that,
(08:14):
ringed by spectators, thousandsupon thousands of people, almost
creating a completeencirclement of that hole,
because you can't have a dressrehearsal for the Ryder Cup.
You can have Italian opens, butit is on a completely different
scale.
I wanted to ask you when youwere on the grounds at Marcos
Simone for the week, you musthave been looking at so many
(08:35):
different things that you'dfactored into your design and
your routing.
What were the little details,if you like, that made you feel
really good and satisfied beyondthe golf?
Because there's so much thatwent into this, because it's
unlike any other event and, asyou said, the infrastructure is
so huge around it and that hasto bleed into how you design the
(08:57):
holes and how you route thegolf course.
So I just wondered what littledetails really succeeded for you
.
Speaker 3 (09:04):
Well, definitely from a spectator point of view, I
remember standing behind 7 Greenand you see all the fans coming
down the left-hand side of 7.
And they were like 15, 20 deep.
You got the raised hospitalityunit and it was a similar
feeling.
I stood behind the Green on orsat behind the Green on 16.
And I was very thankful forsome of these hospitality units
(09:26):
because it actually provided alittle bit of shade Because it
was so hot, but I did sit therewatching 17, well, most days,
from behind the Green and seeingall the fans come down.
I mean, and you're right,there's no dress rehearsal but
we have pictured it in our mindsfrom the moment it's been on
(09:50):
the drawing board and I supposethere was after on Sunday, once
the matches had been won, jeremySlesser, our managing director,
and I we were just stood on thetop floor of the hospitality
unit on 16, just watching allthe people coming back towards
the first for the trophycelebration.
(10:15):
So it was quite a nice, it was alovely moment.
Just the two of us have pouredour hearts and soul in Jeremy
from 2014, me from 2017, justyeah, it was a lovely moment
watching all the people and juststanding back and taking it all
in and thinking, yeah, it'sgone really well and we couldn't
(10:36):
have been obviously happier.
But yeah, I mean seeing all thespectators ringing the fairways
all the way around and knowingthat we would factor it in and
that's what.
We had the opportunity this wasprobably the first purpose
(10:56):
built Ryder Cup course andknowing that we had the
opportunity and grateful for thefact that we didn't mess it up,
I suppose no, I thought it wasawesome I mean even being an
American, and obviously it was alittle rough start and then it
didn't get much better fromthere.
Speaker 1 (11:15):
But I just thought that the golf course demanded
such quality golf, that and itreally raised I felt like it
really raised the level of playand it really demanded that out
of the players.
So I was telling Dan before wecame on, I actually operate an
indoor golf facility and we useTrackman and we're fortunate
(11:36):
enough to have Marco Simone onour Trackman.
So I actually played the golfcourse before coming on this
morning just to kind of get alittle more of a feel for the
golf course, prior to talking toyou, and the first thing that
kind of stuck out to me was it'slike, man, it's definitely the
feeling of a big park, becauseon the Trackman simulation you
don't have the hospitality unitsthere that kind of define the
(12:00):
holes.
So it's like you said, there'snot a lot of shade, there's not
a lot of trees, it's pretty open, but it feels like a big park.
But I think the thing that isreally interesting is there's a
lot of people that are gettinginto golf and they're not
getting in in the traditionalsense, meaning that they're not
going to green grass.
They're actually coming into anenvironment like mine, to where
(12:22):
they're starting withsimulation.
And the thing that's interestingabout simulated golf is that
the courses that do really wellare the courses that obviously
have the most elevation changeand topography and scenic things
like that.
So like, for an example, likeLehenge does great on Trackman
because you can really see itand you almost can kind of feel
(12:44):
it and it's a really coolexperience on Trackman.
But do you think, being a golfcourse architect, that, knowing
that there's a lot of people whoare falling in love with golf
that way, could you see inreality to where the
architecture gets a little moreanimated, let's say, and a
little more over the top, towhere it actually presents
(13:04):
itself better to a simulatedmodel and has a little more
defining characteristics?
Speaker 3 (13:11):
Interesting question.
I mean, you know we are.
You know Marcus Mone is anundulating site for sure and I
mean that posed a lot ofquestions and a lot of different
questions for the professionals.
And I think you know, if youcompare, I think on the European
tour there are probably moreundulating courses and maybe
(13:34):
we'll get into that later andthat's maybe one of the reasons
why Europe were a little bitmore successful.
But you know, part of our jobis, you know, we don't want to
be just moving land for the sakeof moving land.
You know we have aresponsibility to treat all
sites, you know, assympathetically as possible and
(13:55):
trying to find, you know, thebest holes that a particular
site gives you.
You know so it's you.
Yeah, I mean they do add a lotof interest from a simulator
point of view.
But you know like to say to aclient well, we're going to move
another you know million cubeof material for that particular
(14:21):
reason.
You know that could be aninteresting sell to a potential
owner.
Speaker 1 (14:28):
Yeah, I just think as we move into this I think I
think Dan kind of alluded to ita little bit you know,
especially in America, golfcourse architecture is more hot
topic because you're seeing moregolf courses designed to
attract and be a stand alonekind of destination, right.
So you know, if you think of aband and dunes, for example,
that's obviously a magnet, right, and it's just, it's a little
(14:52):
bit.
I like your answer a lot likeas someone who, like, believes
in sustainability and is alittle more traditional that way
.
You know, I definitely see thevalue in trying to be
sympathetic in your approachwith the land that's provided.
However, there's also theopposite of that and I don't
want to get into a comparingcontrast, but I happen to be at
(15:12):
the Ryder Cup at WhistlingStraits and that land was a flat
piece of land and now it isanything but.
And it's like I just wonder howmuch temptation there is from
these development groups tocreate that kind of attraction
so that they can spin it off andsell it and repackage it in a
simulation and things like that.
Speaker 3 (15:33):
Yeah, for sure, I think every client is different.
I think that will be attractiveto some clients and it won't be
attractive to others.
For sure, I definitely see yourpoint.
Any way that we can bring morepeople into the game is
(15:54):
definitely a positive.
Speaker 2 (15:56):
We need to be looking at every avenue that we can,
for sure, Dave, what were yourmain takeaways from watching the
golf In terms of how theplayers approached the challenge
of Marco Sermoni?
Was there anything thatsurprised you?
Was there anything that reallythought oh wow, I really didn't
expect that.
(16:17):
I know that one of the thingsthat we spoke about before the
Ryder Cup was the short par 4 onthe front line that you were
maybe hoping that wouldn't bepushed up.
Obviously, we can come on tosome of the data on that, which
I'm very keen to get youropinion on.
Was there anything that stoodout for you or that surprised
you about the way either sidetackled the test of Marco
(16:37):
Sermoni?
Speaker 3 (16:42):
I think, similar to Paris.
I just don't think theAmericans drove the ball as well
as Europe, the number of timesthey were pulling driver, when
the obvious play, it seemed, wasa three word into the wider
part of the fairway you playfrom there the penalty for
(17:05):
missing the rough.
It was so obvious.
It just felt that the Americans, and sometimes the Europeans as
well, got caught in that trap.
I've come back and I've onlymanaged to get to Saturday four
(17:26):
balls.
I'm trying to catch up andwatch it all again on TV.
I really felt that they justkept being tempted, as was the
hope and the wish from theEuropean captain that they would
pull the driver, and they keptpulling it.
Speaker 1 (17:49):
Dan and myself have talked about stylistically the
differences between American andEuropean golf quite a bit.
Actually, I've been fortunateenough to play both.
I quite prefer European golf.
I think it's much more artisticand fun and I definitely think
that the creativity has to behigher.
I think for Americans,especially young, competitive
(18:10):
Americans, the idea is that youhave to shoot 63 every time you
play golf.
That's the way that it's lookedat in the US.
I think that that breeds thisjust attacking mentality to
where you can't help yourselfbut hit the driver because you
always hit the driver.
We hit the driver here becausewe're trying to make a birdie.
We just can't get out of thatalmost archaic way of thinking.
(18:32):
I think that my man, double D,has some pretty good data here.
I know we've referenced it afew times and I would absolutely
love it if my man would talkabout some of this data, because
I know the word data getsthrown out there a lot.
I would like to really come onto some of the statistical
things that we actually haveseen when breaking this down.
(18:52):
Dan, if you wouldn't mind,maybe start teasing some of this
out and maybe we can get Daveto react to some of it and see
if maybe that gets a reactionand he maybe tips his cap that
that was part of the design.
Speaker 2 (19:06):
Well, I think, thanks to each man I think you
mentioned one thing there, dave,which was very significant
tempting Team America to takethe driver the Team Europe were
considerably better driving theball in every single session of
the Ryder Cup.
We're talking more than 20strokes gained better across the
Ryder Cup.
(19:26):
I mean that's huge.
I know there are a lot ofmatches, but that is an enormous
amount.
We put all the data from theRyder Cup through Clip and we've
looked at the shot quality, theaverage shot quality in every
distance being every skill andalso in the overall, and then
off the tee approach, around thegreen putting and then dived in
deeper than that.
(19:47):
You're absolutely right in thesense that the USA, team USA,
were tempted to take the driverand they paid the price because
there was grass.
Just tell us a little bit aboutthe rough at Marcus Monique,
because it was a different typeof grass, wasn't it Probably a
grass?
Speaker 1 (20:03):
maybe wrong.
Why delay?
They only said it 763 times yes, please tell us about the grass
.
Speaker 3 (20:10):
I kept calling it Paspelum.
It wasn't Paspelum, it's atotal Feski mix, I mean yeah,
right, okay.
Speaker 2 (20:17):
Well, that's that nailed.
Speaker 3 (20:19):
Yeah, it's Paspelum fairways and it's just a tall
Feski mix which is incrediblystrong and, as you say, a very
thick blade.
Speaker 2 (20:30):
Yeah.
And then you know, I think wealso mentioned elevation, which
I think is really interesting.
Us courses on the PGA tour,particularly, are considerably
less hilly than Marcus Monique,particularly the back nine.
I mean actually the back ninehad let me count them one, two,
three, four, five, six, seven,eight holes that have a greater
(20:52):
elevation change than 80% ofcourses on the PGA tour.
Well, so there were, andparticularly for approach shots.
So you know, we looked at, wewere able, in the build up to
the rider cup, take all the clipdata for all 24 players and
Europe had a clear advantage,both playing uphill and downhill
.
And I think that also is veryinteresting in terms of feeding
(21:15):
into your pairings, because thepairings, I think in some ways
the European pairings, mighthave been a surprise to some
people, whereas I don't thinkthere were any surprises in the
American approach, which was,you know, justin Thomas is going
to play with Jordan Spieth,patrick Cantley is going to play
with Xander Schoffley, you knowScotty Schoffler is probably
going to play with Sam Burns.
You know it was sort of writtenbefore the event, whereas it
(21:40):
feels like there was a lot moreattention to analytics and much
more attention to actually thestrength, the skill set required
on certain holes, whichobviously comes into its own in
four sums.
Speaker 3 (21:51):
Yeah, I mean, I suppose it's quite difficult.
I mean, if you are Zach Johnson, you've got, you've got two of
those pairings in CantleySchoffley and Jordan Spieth and
Justin Thomas.
You know they've proven overnumerous presidents cups and
rider cups to be successful.
(22:14):
So it would have been a prettyballsy call for him to say, oh
well, I'm actually going tosplit them up.
But your point about you knowthe data and the stats on this,
you know, relative to MarcusSimone, is a good one.
But yeah, I think it would havebeen ballsy for Zach Johnson to
(22:37):
split.
Speaker 2 (22:37):
It would have been more ballsy to throw.
Speaker 1 (22:41):
Jordan Spieth at foot , driver away and hit three wood
over the water.
I think that was probably theballsy call?
Speaker 3 (22:49):
Yeah, I think.
But he, you know that wasn'tpicked up in the press
conference after because thatwas all Capgate on 18, which
became the main story.
But if it wasn't you know, joeLeCarvo walking around with
waving his cap, then I thinkZach Johnson would have had a
whole load of differentquestions to answer that
(23:09):
Saturday evening.
Speaker 1 (23:10):
I'm going to be honest yeah, I'm sorry, real
quick, hang on, because this isan interesting topic, but it
just goes in.
It's like you know, I think ifyou, if you look at the data and
and we have so much of it itwould make even the math who in
the world blush.
But really, when you, when youlook at it, it's just there's
(23:32):
there's case point after casepoint for the fact that the
Europeans Were very, very wellprepared.
They had that, they understoodwhat the task was.
They probably went out therewith the smartest NASA type
people in the world to figureout the elevation changes, with
the degrees of Temperature, withthe relative humidity, like
they had it figured out right,they did their homework and I
(23:55):
just felt like a lot of thestorylines to your point that
were picked up and taken out ofMarco Simone were, you know,
news newspaper trash, like Ijust felt like they were all
tabloids and it was just.
It felt like they were runninga lot of interference and a lot
of cover for the fact that ourcaptain just showed up with a
team that was unprepared andJust like the military generally
(24:18):
, when you start pointing thefinger, you start at the top and
obviously we have to start withthe captain, and I just think
that, no matter how you look atit, they were completely
unprepared and and they gotshown what a prepared team could
do when they were motivated.
Speaker 3 (24:30):
Yeah, I think it's, it's.
It's interesting a few of thelessons from from the Gulf
National.
They obviously didn't, theydidn't seem, it doesn't seem
that those were learned.
You know, like only one playerplayed played in Paris before
that event, that was JustinThomas.
Not one player plays played inItalian open, there's been three
so far.
When I said to Dan on theprevious part, I think you know
(24:53):
Playing a course and playing acourse in tournament conditions,
you know, even though it wasstroke play, you know that's
gonna help, for sure You'regonna.
You're gonna know, know thecourse better, you're gonna know
where the the better misses andthe wrong misses.
So I, you know, and obviously,the you know no competitor golf
of five weeks is, you know, isthere's also a nuance to a golf
(25:16):
course that you, I don't know.
Speaker 1 (25:18):
I like to think that some people you know designed
for these things.
But my favorite thing to try toexplain to some people is when
you look at number 12 at AugustaNational, you know one of the
most famous holes of golf in theworld.
I don't know if it wasintentional, I don't know that
it was, but the thing that makesthat hole so iconic is the
vortex of wind that's createdbehind that green.
(25:38):
It literally creates a cyclonelike this on that green because
you've got 11 coming in this way, you've got 15 coming in from
the other way, and then you'vegot a massive backdrop behind
that hole with the land shootingstraight upward and it just
creates a cyclone.
And that's why Tiger and a lotof guys have figured out that if
you catch it the correct way,spinning this way, if you aim
(26:01):
left, it pulls the ball intowards the green Versus hitting
the right side of that cyclonewhere it spits it out right,
which is where the raised Creekis.
Yeah, so it.
It's understanding thosenuances right and I don't know
how.
I'm sure that things like thatare considered in the design
process, but you have to learnthose for yourself through the
plane for sure.
Speaker 3 (26:21):
So I come back to the , the, the, the Zach Johnson and
Speed thing on the team on 16.
They were actually quite, quiteright in that.
You know, to actually get intothat pin you had to come in it
from a different angle.
So we're Justin Thomas, theleft is, drive it was.
You had a pretty, reallydifficult up and down because of
(26:43):
where that particular pin is.
So that you know we are and andand that Any pin on the on the
right, the far right hand sideof 16, you're actually better
off coming in with a pitchingwedge from the fairway to get as
it is, there's a, there's a,there's a like a knob that sort
of protects all those pins onthe right.
So their thinking was actuallypretty sound.
(27:04):
I think he just pushed, pushthe tee shot, but yeah.
And then going back to four ballSaturday, the only people who
actually played 11 well Were theAmerican team, where they
actually hit three word or fiveword of the tee and to that
particular pin.
The play was to actually Throwa wedge from a 90 yards, pass
(27:27):
the pin and spin it back,whereas a lot of the Europeans
got caught up.
But they were, they were behindon their matches there were
three or four behind so theyfelt like they had to to chase
it.
But the actual play to thatparticular pin was was where the
Americans played it.
So I think you know they gotbetter and better, as you know,
like they couldn't get too muchworse after the first couple of
(27:50):
four sums Sessions.
But the more they got to knowthe golf course, I think, the
more the better they played it,I think.
And and they were obviouslygetting more into tournament,
tournament, play, tournament fit, so to speak.
Speaker 2 (28:03):
That's a really good point, dave, because actually
that's born out in the clip data, you know.
You can see that the marginbetween the two sides in four
sums and four balls just startsto diminish as the week goes on
and, like you say, they learnthe course.
I mean the, the, I mean it'sjust a par threes where it's
extraordinary, I mean a wholeseven on On Friday you're at one
(28:24):
, at seven times, at five times.
Sorry, when it five times onFriday.
Well, I mean games well out ofeight out of eight games.
They won it five times and theywere 30.
They were 33 percent Better onpar three.
Tee shots on the four sums inday one.
Again, you know whether that'sa mixture of Tournament
(28:46):
readiness, tournamentpreparation, tournament hardness
and course knowledge, but thosetwo things.
And, to your point, theyobviously did learn the course
and they started to playthemselves into form.
But by that stage they'recompletely by the eight, behind
the eight ball.
Speaker 1 (29:00):
Yeah, yeah, kind of like watching a professional
band right, like I mean thecomment that I was, I'm glad you
said that double D but it'skind of like watching a band
that doesn't really want to bethere and like the first three
songs Like they're kind of likewarm-up songs in there.
You know that you can seethey're maybe drinking that red
cup a little Later into the show, but like they eventually get
(29:22):
it going and they put on a greatshow, but the first few it.
And I felt the same way aboutthe American team and I think
that the data definitelysupports the fact that, once
again, had they been prepared,we would have saw probably much
more what we saw on Sundayversus what we saw earlier in
the week.
Speaker 3 (29:40):
But I think it was also a master stroke from them
to switch, you know, the foursums and the four balls on the
Friday Come.
You know they've obviouslyFactored in the fact that
there's no, you know, there maybe some, some rustiness from the
Americans and then, and thenplaying them on Friday morning
and Saturday morning, first twoof the three sessions at
Europe's strongest, you know,sort of match play.
Speaker 1 (30:05):
Well, I was an American.
We don't know that there'sanother format other than stroke
play.
Dave, like, honestly, like Ipride myself on somewhat
understanding things and whenit's like four sums and four
balls, like I have to think alittle bit like, okay, which one
are we play?
Don't play it in the US.
And honestly, I think if youlooked at and this is a little
(30:26):
different for anotherconversation but if you looked
at, you know this massive influxof new golfers that we have
coming into the industry, intothe game.
When you look at that, I would,I would argue that most of them
probably don't even realizethat there's an format other
than stroke play.
I mean, it's really kind ofalarming at how ill-prepared we
are for that format.
Speaker 2 (30:47):
Yeah, we looked at in the in the build-up to the
rider cup at Clip's.
You know we looked at the mostcommonly hit approach shots at
Marcus Simone in the last two orthink or three Italian opens
and they've been played between180 and 208, 220 yards both from
the fairway and the tee andEurope had eight of the top ten
performers from both sides atthat distance.
(31:09):
Again, it's sort of like, youknow, tempting, tempting the,
the Americans to pull the driver, whereas actually, you know,
even by laying back and having alonger second shot which was
something we discussed in thebuild-up, dave, you know that
really played into to Europe'sstrengths.
Speaker 3 (31:25):
Yeah, I mean the captain didn't do you know too
much to the golf course, butthere were Definitely some areas
where, well you know, therewere definitely some fairways
that were narrowed up to to tryand Maximize that perceived
strength in Europe's game andobviously this the the data
(31:47):
proves that they are stronger atthose distances.
Speaker 2 (31:52):
Yeah, they really are .
I mean, I think that you knowyou look right the way across
across the data.
I mean in approach Europe, 140to 160 yards were better in four
out of five sessions.
160 to 180 yards better inthree out of five.
200 to 224 out of five, 220 to244 out of five.
(32:13):
So that's you know, that's abig edge right the way across
the bulk of approach shots thatwere hit, yeah, at Marco Simone
and it sort of all fits into mytheory which was Marco Simone
was Europe's 13th, 13th man, Imean obviously he had this he
had the Seville locker in therein the team changing room, but
you know, maybe it was afterSeville was.
(32:34):
It was Europe's 14th band then.
Speaker 3 (32:36):
Yeah well, I mean, look, I think a lot of you know
I, yeah, a lot of credits got togo to to the captain and the
vice captains for, you know,coming up with a strategy and
and, as you know this, thestrategy did work at in Paris
and you know it's no, it wasn'ttoo much of a surprise that the
(32:58):
that strategy was going to beimplemented at Marcus Simone,
but, yeah, it definitely worked.
Yeah, and then, as you say, thenumbers proven and I've seen
some of your, your, your chartnumbers here and, yeah, some of
the numbers are literally offthe staggering, the difference,
the difference is just yeah soif we were uh, if we were On the
(33:22):
back side all the way we were,we had one project left.
Speaker 1 (33:25):
So let's say that we're 40 years from now and you
are designing your rider cup.
Um, finale, this is the, thebig one, this is the one that
you're going to be rememberedfor, and we're 40 years from now
.
So we've played quite a fewrider cups between here and
there.
Tell me about what you couldforesee this golf course looking
(33:47):
like.
I'm curious.
Where does the golf coursearchitecture Um kind of thinking
be the game going in the future?
Speaker 3 (33:57):
Well, that, that's a very interesting question and
we're the rider cup.
So this is for the rider cup.
I think well, well, I mean youyou can't foresee what will
happen so many years down theline.
I think I think what we havecreated, um at Marcus Simone,
the, you know the, the spectatorand the player experience, Um,
(34:22):
you know you, you would look todo similar things because
obviously it's, it's proved tobe, you know, a big hit.
Um, I think you know the, youknow like, because the the
elevation change gave usopportunities to have, you know,
raised greens and big runoffsand Angulations in the green.
(34:43):
I think you know that's quiteimportant because it engages the
spectator so much more becausethey are Watching these balls
and you know like, let's say, 10, for instance, for the big
false front, you know, if theball doesn't get there, you know
they cheering as the ball goesdown.
I think that's all part ofrider cup and and and an
atmosphere and getting you knowpeople involved and I think, um,
(35:05):
you know rider club, rider cups, match, play golf, having half
power holes is is important andI think that that's, you know,
birdie, you know, easy, for youknow, you know, you know half
power holes.
So, um, I think that's.
You know, incredibly importantfor for for match play golf.
So you know, right now, youknow, as we know, there will be
(35:28):
lots of change, but right nowyou'd look to do, you know, try
and do something similar andkeep the player and the fan fan
engaged, and I think that'sthat's an important thing with
rider cup.
Speaker 2 (35:38):
I think, I think you know he said something really
interesting there.
I mean about the half powerholes and there were plenty at
Marcus Mane, and that's whatmade it such a great match play
course.
It brought the whole notion ofrisk and reward right up front,
uh, in the players minds andalso in the minds of the
Spectator on the viewer at home.
That's what made it soenjoyable and so gripping.
But the other thing I think isreally key is that Even though
(36:01):
the course measured what?
7250 yards not not hugely longby modern standards yet it put a
lot of clubs, different clubs,in the players hands, which I
think is it's really interesting.
So that I think it's that thisalmost follows on from the
duchies question about you knowwhen is golf going, you know are
we going to have when we saystadium courses, you know
(36:21):
courses with literally Hugepermanent stadiums sort of built
into them, but also in terms ofyou know, obviously, the
distance debate we could talkabout all day and all night.
But what marco simone showedfor my money was that even at
7250 yards which is a long wayin in if I was playing it, but
for these guys not a long waythey were asked to hit a lot of
(36:42):
different shots with a lot ofdifferent clubs.
Speaker 3 (36:45):
Yeah, no, I, I mean, Well, when, when the jack
johnson went out there over ayear ago, he, he made that, that
statement that's.
You know, marcus, money's goingto test every club in their bag
, which you know, as anarchitect, you, you are looking
to do, you're looking to poseall those different questions.
(37:06):
Yes, you know the elevationposes questions.
Um, you know, there wasobviously uphill, downhill, side
hill, shots, left to right,right to left.
You know, and I think, as anarchitect, you are looking to to
try and ask, you know, theplayer and especially the
professional player.
You know this course is rightand Marcus money is always going
(37:26):
to be known for For hosting ariding cap.
So and and we, you know, wewere all obviously trying to
Trying to do that and, as yousay, yeah, one of the one of the
things I take away from thisweek is, you know, there were,
there were players that probablyHadn't hit a five iron or put a
five iron in their bag for ayear and they were actually
(37:47):
having to play these, play withthese clubs again.
So I think that's that's greatand you know, you know All we
can try and do is pose as manyquestions as we can, and you
know that's that provides Um anexcitement level for for the
spectator and the and the viewerwatching on tv.
Speaker 1 (38:06):
Well, without trying to get into too much flattery,
um, I really think that you knowthat shows when we, when we
talk about, like, the distancedebate, I get really frustrated
with because it's it's totallytheoretical.
Uh, because it totally dependson where we're playing, right,
like there's a real distanceproblem in Denver, colorado,
(38:27):
like, yeah, we hit it too farthere, but like when we go down
to Florida and the swamps andthe sea level, you know, all of
a sudden, 7200 yards feels like78.
So it's like I really feel likewhat happens in this distance
debate is that, for lack ofbetter terminology, you know, a
lot of the designers go outthere and they just kind of like
it's a flat golf course andokay, well, we can't figure out
(38:49):
a way to make shots playdifferently, so, okay, we'll
just make it 8 000 yards andthat's not really helping
anybody.
You know, I don't think thatthe the general public out there
playing golf enjoys it.
I don't think the members ofthat club enjoy it and I know
that the tour guys don't enjoyplaying an 8 000 yard golf
course because it's just it'snot Creative and it just feels
like it's you're actuallyworking at it instead of playing
(39:10):
it.
So, um, I applaud you because Ithink that there are ways to be
creative and strategic With howyou force players to play
different shots off at ease.
Speaker 3 (39:21):
Yeah, no, no, well, thank you.
I mean, yeah, it's uh, yeahit's it.
Yeah, as I said it was, it wasjust great to see these guys
hitting Different, differentclubs, you know, and.
But, uh, you know, withmarcusimony We've also tried to
factor in the fact that it'sstill a member's club, you know,
(39:43):
and, and yes, it is a difficultcourse, but I think people will
go to marcusimony and go well,I'm playing a rider cup course,
so I'm expecting it to be, youknow, a level of difficulty or a
higher level of difficulty.
But you know, we always, wealways do try hard on the
simulator.
Speaker 1 (39:58):
I mean, not very many golf courses are hard on a
trackman simulator, but I'll,I'll be damned if marcusimony
isn't a difficult track on thesimulator.
Man like Even probably, I meanI think the white or you know,
quote-unquote the member keyright is what?
6800 yards, I think is what Iplayed it from earlier.
Is that about right?
Speaker 3 (40:17):
Yeah, that's sort of the middle t68, but the sort of
the normal yellow members.
T was sort of 63, 62, 60.
Okay, got you.
Speaker 1 (40:25):
Yeah, but I mean, it's just it feels like a lot
longer like that, that shot onone.
You know, I think the and Idon't know once again, I'm
playing it on a simulator, right, but it's see, I know that that
green in reality is a littlebit higher, I think.
Then the t box right it's alittle bit elevated.
Yeah but it plays way moreelevated because the t shot is
actually downhill right and thenit kind of goes back up the
(40:47):
hill.
Speaker 3 (40:48):
The, the landing area in the t are similar-ish, but
there's a stream in front of thet's which make you feel like
you're going Down and up alittle bit but that's not a shot
.
Speaker 1 (40:58):
Plays a lot longer than you would think it would
normally play, you know, I mean,it's things like that that you
constantly see throughout thatround.
Speaker 3 (41:06):
Yeah, yeah, but I mean that, that's you know.
I mean I said this to Dan.
I mean the elevation change weactually saw was a massive
positive on this side,especially when you, you know
you're trying to factor in thespectators and the fans and what
you can give them.
You know, and and and thedifference between Paris and and
you know, marcus Simone, isParis had like embankments On
(41:31):
both sides of only one goal fall.
So, you know, spectator got,you got to see a lot of
spectators around one hole, butthey only got to see that
particular, whereas MarcusSimone, you know you had so much
, you could see numerous goalfalls and I think that added to
you know the, the experience alot.
Speaker 2 (41:49):
Dave, can I ask you the Ryder Cup is a huge process.
You've been working on thisproject for many years, but
European Golf Design, thecompany you work for, has a long
history with the Ryder Cup and,obviously, with the European
Tour.
Can I ask you what's next?
Obviously, everything keepsmoving forwards, and planning
(42:10):
and the processes for the nexthome European Cup for Team
Europe are well underway.
But what's next for you, interms of both the Ryder Cup but
also other projects that youmight be really excited about or
really passionate about at themoment?
Speaker 3 (42:26):
Well, the next Ryder Cup is a day of manner in
Ireland.
That's already been well newly,I think there was a golf course
there before and it's beenredone by Fezio and Tom Marzell
from Fezio Design, so there willbe work on that, but that will
be a relationship between themand Ryder Cup Europe.
(42:49):
European Golf Design won't beinvolved in that project, but
there are numerous candidatesfor 31 and 35 that the company
is involved in, but obviouslynothing to really be said on
that at this stage.
(43:09):
So yeah, I mean there arepossibly a couple of those
projects knocking around, butyeah, I mean I've got some
really interesting projects One27-hole project in Jakarta,
which is a really interestingpart of the world to go to, been
(43:30):
there a couple of times.
In terms of other new projects,there's one in Spain, there's
another one in Croatia, sothere's a lot on the drawing
board.
We're going back to Crom Susierup in the Swiss Alps and next
week we're starting constructionthere again doing a bit more
(43:52):
work.
Speaker 1 (43:52):
So there's a lot going on Elevation in the Swiss
Alps.
I'm curious that one is 1500meters, that golf course.
Speaker 3 (44:00):
I've played that golf course.
Speaker 2 (44:02):
I've played Crom Montana.
It's quite a spectacular venue,and you talked about playing
golf in Denver.
The ball does fly a certaindistance further up in the Swiss
Alps.
I mean, there's one morequestion, dave, if I don't mind
asking me.
You're rewinding all the way tothe beginning.
You're now at a point probablyin your career and I might be
wrong here, but where all theaccolades are going to come your
(44:25):
way.
You've had this incrediblesuccess with Marcus Mone, very
well deserved.
Your start in golf coursearchitecture was very similar to
Alistair McKenzie's, was it not, in the sense that you
submitted a whole design to acompetition and then that really
gave you your start in thebusiness, did it not?
Speaker 3 (44:44):
Yeah, that's right Now.
I was back in 2002.
I was in South Africa finishingmy building architecture thesis
and my grandfather wasseriously ill.
He lived in Cardiff, so I cameover and said my goodbyes and
then on the way back, there wasa design, a whole competition in
(45:05):
Golf World Magazine which theywere running in conjunction with
European golf design, and I putsome entries in the postbox
that he throw, and it was justthe lucky winner, I suppose.
But then, so that was end of2002.
And then, yeah, got a job atEGD in November 2004.
So I've been there 19 years.
(45:27):
But yeah, it was definitely thefoot in the door.
That's very lucky.
Speaker 1 (45:37):
I can't imagine the amount of skills that it would
require to be a golf coursearchitect.
I mean, I was kind of, really Iwas nervous.
This is the first podcast I'vereally been nervous about,
because Double D has to do itpretty often, but we get a swing
guy on here and he feels alittle out of his element.
But I really feel out of myelement and I've played a lot of
(45:57):
golf courses, and even somereally famous ones that are
really well rated.
But if you really drilled medown and said, hey, what do you
like about that golf course?
It generally is tied prettyclosely to what I shoot.
You know what I mean.
It's not because of the actualgolf course, it's more how my
experience was there.
So I would imagine like it'sdifficult to design a golf
(46:19):
course that you feel has abackbone and has some ethics.
You know what I mean.
It doesn't just roll over butat the same time isn't one of
those golf courses that youcreate to where everybody hates
it because it's just a kick inthe teeth.
Nobody wants to go and play it,because there's a ton of those
out there too, and I think thatif you look at those golf
courses economically, they tendto really struggle because it's
(46:40):
just not an enjoyable experience.
Speaker 3 (46:42):
No, I mean yeah, I mean so we are very fortunate
that we get to work on a lot ofprojects.
I mean obviously tournamentprojects and that's obviously
through our association with theEuropean Tour.
But on every project we'retrying to factor in the main
client to somebody that's got ahigh handicap and you've got to
(47:03):
try and make them as fun forthem as possible because they
are your return customer andyou've got to make them
enjoyable for them.
But you're obviously trying toprovide enough challenge and
strategic interest in a golfcourse so that they you know,
that's that yeah.
Speaker 2 (47:25):
Which course have you played, dave?
That sort of you just keepcoming back to thinking, wow,
that's got so much strategicinterest to it, that's got so
many interesting design elementsand it's playable.
Which one for you?
And it doesn't?
You know, obviously there'ssome legendary courses out there
, but is there one for you thatsort of captures so many of the
(47:49):
elements that you value in golfcourse architecture that you
know, if you just had to playone place again and again and
again through that architectslens, which one would it be?
Speaker 3 (47:59):
Well, I'm going to be a bit boring here,
unfortunately, but it's.
I think it comes back toMichael's point of every time
I've played it, I've played itparticularly well, but that's
the old course that's in.
Yeah, I just, you know you canplay it a million different ways
, you know, depending on thewind, depending, you know you
just there's so much interest inthat place and I think the
(48:22):
first time you actually go thereyou're just a little
underwhelmed by the place.
But then the more times youwalk around there, the more you
see every time you go, you go.
Speaker 1 (48:32):
I can attest to that.
I can attest to the exact thing.
I was there for the 150th andif it hadn't like, I remember
walking.
I think I got in Monday thatweek and I remember going out
and working with a player thatmorning and then I remember
walking back, like into town toget dinner before I left to go
to my Airbnb and I just rememberthinking like man, if it wasn't
(48:54):
for the tournament, I don'tthink that place is all that
Like, I don't get it.
Like am I missing?
Like I spent my whole lifetrying to get here and I don't.
But by the end of the week Ijust really, really, really sell
in love with the place.
And it's their point.
There's something that there'sthat interest.
The wind is different, thewhole place completely different
, and it's not just the fullshot either.
(49:17):
The short game is incrediblydifferent day to day.
Speaker 3 (49:20):
Yeah, and I mean, obviously you know it comes back
to you know some of the thingswe try to do at Marcus and Ernie
.
It's like, depending on certainpin positions, you play the
golf hole differently.
Strategically, you plot yourway differently to certain pins.
And I think you know St Andrews, you do that, do that a lot.
So I think that's the thing.
Speaker 2 (49:38):
Is that about a great course?
That it reveals itself, doesn'tit, With each playing.
I mean, I think so many peoplehave had the same experience at
the old course.
First time it's like, oh really, what's, what's all this about?
But then, every time you havethe good fortune to play, it
just reveals more of itsintricacy, more of its genius,
more of the nuances, untilyou're completely intoxicated by
(49:59):
it.
And you only have to look atthe impact it's had and the
influence, how it's influencedyou know, generations of great
golf course architects and thethe esteem it's held in by the
very greatest players in in thehistory of the game to you know,
to see why.
I think that's just the perfectanswer for me from a golf
course architect.
Speaker 1 (50:21):
Hey Dave, by the way safe and boring.
Speaker 3 (50:24):
I wanted to let you know, dave.
Speaker 1 (50:26):
Dan got his job on this podcast by revealing
himself, so just just be carefulwhen you start throwing that
word around.
Speaker 2 (50:33):
I'm not.
Yeah, I'm not going to tell youwhat I'm wearing on the bottom
half, but yeah, it's, it's, it'sa great place.
Well, dave, listen, thank you.
Thank you so much for your time.
I'm I'm really thrilled for you, as you know, and I've been
sort of forwarding you all thethe incredible plaudits and
accolades that people have beenwriting on social media, and I'm
(50:54):
just thrilled for you that itturned out so well and it was
such a great course.
So thank you so much for yourtime and thank you for joining
us today.
Speaker 3 (51:02):
Thank you for those kind words and thanks for having
me on.
Speaker 1 (51:06):
Yeah, it's been a great pleasure, and, from
somebody who definitely doesn'tbelong in this conversation, I
really appreciated it because Ithink it's been.
It's been really interesting tolearn and think about some of
this.
I mean the the scale of a RyderCup is obviously massive and
huge.
Obviously an enormousundertaking by you and your team
and everybody involved.
But even as the losing side, Istill have to tip my hat,
(51:29):
because it was an incrediblevenue and I think that it
definitely displayed the bestthat everybody had to offer.
So my hats off.
I thank Dave for joining us onthis episode of making the turn.
As always, double D came inwith a lot of facts and a lot of
good notes, so I alwaysappreciate having a good partner
that bells me out, even whenI'm not the expert of the topic.
(51:50):
So, thanks to Double D, thanksto Dave once again, and if you
haven't already, make sure todownload this podcast, and if
you haven't found it already,you also can find the full video
on YouTube by searching makingthe turn go podcast.
So that does it for us.
Thanks so much for tuning inand until next time, keep riding
.
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