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October 8, 2023 46 mins

This engaging conversation with Sean Foley, one of the world's leading golf coaches, is not to be missed. Learn from the man who has trained legendary golfers like Tiger Woods and Justin Rose on how to unlock your potential. Throughout our talk, Sean reveals the importance of analyzing your game from a physical, mental, and emotional perspective. He also provides an enlightening look at the neuroscience behind his coaching techniques, which he has honed over many years of working with top-tier players.

Sean goes beyond the swing, discussing the lessons he learned from his mentors and the importance of authenticity in the industry. He opens up about his personal journey, shedding light on the resilience and adaptability that has led him to where he is today. We also delve into his revolutionary Pro Sender training tool, which has been a game-changer for both tour players and amateurs. 

Finally, Sean offers invaluable insights into the power of a tailored approach to coaching. He shares his experiences in helping Justin Rose clinch the number one spot on the leaderboard and how understanding the brain's learning process can significantly enhance one's game. As a treat, Sean also talks about his upcoming trips to Toronto, San Diego, and Vegas to work with golfers and shoot content. Tune in for an inspiring chat with a true industry titan.

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Transcript

Episode Transcript

Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:06):
Hello and welcome to another episode of Making the
Turn Golf podcast with the Ducand Double D, and today we are
excited because we have a guestthat is a hard man to track down
because he's so busy and insuch demand, and whether it be
through his revolutionarytraining tool called the
ProCinder, or whether it be theplethora of tour players, both

(00:28):
men and women, that he'sconstantly working with, or
college athletes, or youngathletes, or just people in
general, if there's somebodythat needs help with their golf
swing, there's nobody betterthan Sean Foley to help them
kind of get back on the journeyto finding their best golf again
.
So, as you heard, we're very,very fortunate to have the one
and only Mr Sean Foley, who isreally needs no introduction,

(00:51):
but if you've been living undera rock or just came to golf
recently, sean was one of thepeople that was fortunate enough
to work with Mr Tiger Woods.
I worked with one of mypersonal favorite golfers of all
time.
Justin Rose currently workswith Ben On Cameron Champ, lydia
Co and a host of other greatplayers Sam Horsfeld, not to be
left off the list, but just aplethora of great players.

(01:13):
So, without further ado,because it doesn't really need
to be said let's just go aheadand bring them on.
Sean, how the heck are you thismorning?

Speaker 2 (01:21):
Hey Michael, hi Dan, Good to be with you guys.

Speaker 1 (01:25):
Yes, Sean, Thanks for being here, man.
We caught you on your way tothe airport as usual, a man in
demand.
But one of the biggest reasonsthat we wanted to have you on,
man, is like.
I was driving in this morningto work thinking about this
podcast and I was like, how do Iwant to start talking to Sean
and I would be remiss if Ididn't go ahead and show
everybody this bad boy righthere.

(01:46):
And obviously the ProCinder hasreally caught fire and has done
really, really well, not onlywith tour players but also
amateur players, and I thinkthat you guys have actually had
a tough time meeting demand forthis thing because it's so, it's
just, it works very well for alot of people.
So, you know, is this therebirth of Sean?

(02:09):
Like, is this, is Sean version763.7?
Because it seems like, you know, there's a new look and we're
doing the ProCinder thing and,like you seem more dedicated and
more rigorous than ever.
So what's going on, man?
Is this the new Sean Foley?

Speaker 2 (02:25):
No, I don't think so.
I don't think there's.
You know, there's just theevolution, and I think that you
know, as you're starting out,Michael and I met at Memorial
and, as Michael found out, I'mquite easy to talk to and you
never know.
You might walk for two dayswith me, and my favorite is when

(02:46):
someone walks with me and thenthey go.
Man, you're so down to earth,I'm like where else on my feet.
You know what I'm saying.
Like I teach golf.
When I see guys in the golfcommunity and in the coaching
community get you know, sotender with one another, I'm
like yo, this is not oncology.
Okay, this is not like childeducation, this is teaching golf
.
So keep it, keep it chill,Leave your insecurity at the

(03:09):
gate.
No, I think it's just anevolution.
I think that, you know, when Ifirst got into teaching golf, I
obviously enjoyed golf and Ienjoyed the golf swing, but it
was kind of more a function ofsurvival, Because I didn't know
what else I'd do.
10 semesters of academicprobation, don't have employers
knocking your door down.
You know how hard it isactually, though, to do 10

(03:32):
semesters of academic probationwithout being kicked out.
I mean, it's a prettyimpressive feat.

Speaker 1 (03:38):
Took me eight years to get an undergraduate degree.
Sean, You're talking to theright man here.

Speaker 2 (03:44):
You know what it wasn't like.
I wasn't studying, I justwasn't studying what they wanted
me to study.
So absolutely not, which hasbenefited me a lot more at
corporate outings with CEOs thanwhat they wanted me to study.
So you know, I did that andworked for John Jacobs golf
schools initially and I enjoyedit.
You know, like, as you know, Ienjoy people and I like to.

(04:07):
You know I like to inspirepeople.
And then I like being right, Ilike solving problems, I like
overcoming challenges.
The thing I love about the PGATour and Tour players, but just
golf in general, is just thedifficulty and challenge of how
hard it is to get somebody toimprove and it's not improved
within five minutes.
You and I both help peoplewhere they've hit a shot and

(04:30):
turned around and said, holyshit, but it's, you know, it's
about laying protein aroundtheir pathways before they wake
up in the morning and they justdo that.
So I think that I do reallylike discomfort and I like
challenges.
And then when I got on, when Imoved to Florida with the
intention of coaching tourplayers, I came to where they

(04:50):
were or where they used to be.
Now they're in Jupiter or WestPalm, but Orlando was the hub
and I had this kind of dreamthat I was going to do that.
Then I did that and I wasabsolutely madly in love with
the whole thing, the travel, youname it.
2013 rolls around.
Tigers had a great year, justinRose had a great year, hunter

(05:13):
Mayans had a great year, leeWestwoods had a great year.
And here I am with absolutely abanner year and a dream year,
but I can't be present with myown family and my own house, and
so that's not what I'm after.
So you know, to me, I think,when I was younger, I was very

(05:34):
Western in my, in my thinking asit relates to achievement,
accomplishment, worldly rewards,kick ass, be the best, and that
really drove me.
But then it got to the pointthat I realized that that was
all an illusion.
So, 2013 to 15, I'm kind of inno man's land, trying to be,

(05:58):
trying to be, you know, a greathusband, a great dad and a great
coach.
So when I'm on the road, I wantto be at home, and then, when
I'm at home, I want to be on theroad.
So I'm never anywhere, I'mnever where I'm at, and that's
not a good place to be,obviously.
So then I kind of had to sitdown and redefine to myself.
Okay, and I think by this point, I think by this point, the

(06:26):
only two left are Hunter andRosie, and Hunter's on his way
out.
So then I just defined okay,why do you do this?
What's the purpose behind?
I kind of reread the firstchapter of Man's Search for
Meaning.
I think I've probably rereadthat chapter about a hundred
times.
It continuously brings me backto meaning and purpose.

(06:51):
But the meaning and purpose ofa 20-year-old on the PGA tour
might be much different thanwhen that 20-year-old is 40
years of age and that20-year-old has already done
everything, supported himself,and then, at 40, he opens an
oncology unit for children.
Things change.
You go from being self-centeredwhich there's nothing wrong with

(07:12):
that, I don't know.
It's like saying that we haveto remember that 90% of our
brain is identical to a chimpbrain.
So if we're acting in ways ofthe animal kingdom, which is
survival and adaptation, that'sfine.
That's what we are.
Now we have 10% that allows usto think about morality and

(07:34):
right and wrong and God and allthat.
But when push comes to shove,it's incredible to see what
human beings are capable of andit's quite animalistic.
And so I redefine that.
Okay, I enjoy learning, I enjoyinspiring people and I like
being correct.
So those are the three reasonsthat I'll ultimately do it Now.

(07:55):
I think liking to be correctwas just more a manifestation
that came from kind of, I think,insecurity more than anything.
So because I wasn't a goodathlete, because I wasn't a tall
guy, because I had all theseholdups about myself, if I could
intellectually bully someonethen I felt fine.
So that kind of overreachesmore.

(08:18):
So that's probably left me bynow into I love the game, I love
myself, I love my players, Ilove the challenge and I enjoy
inspiring people.
And then I enjoy the client.
The funny thing is I've been tothe summit a few times with

(08:40):
players and it's just not reallythe place for me.
I kind of like being stuck in ablizzard, like at 20,000 feet
on Everest, not knowing whenit's going to end.
I just think that there's somuch vitality there for me and
excitement, and that's what I'vekind of enjoyed.
Michael the last couple ofyears is taking players like Ben

(09:00):
and Michael, kim and Lydia, whokind of lost their game and
helped them build it back, andwhat I look at it is.
It's a different when you're atyour golf academy and people
are coming in they're learningthe game.
It's very much instruction.
So at that point they're goingto climb Everest and you're

(09:26):
getting their legs ready.
So what can I do?
If I'm going to climb Everest,I can get stronger, get my
cardio up.
I can train at elevation.
When I go there, I can makesure I have a great Sherpa.
I can make sure that everythingI need for the climb is great

(09:48):
my boots, my gloves.
I got the best of the best.
But after that it's trustingthe Sherpa and I think once you
get with a tour player, that'swhat you're doing.
I mean you get a 30, you get a28-year-old Michael Kim I mean
there's been a lot of reps inthere and I think that's
probably the thing, michael,that I've spent two years now

(10:10):
studying neuroscience andworking with consultants.
And the funny thing is this isthe last thing I've kind of
learned, and it should have beenthe first thing that I learned.
I mean, go figure, eh.

Speaker 1 (10:24):
Every time I go and read something new or learn
something new, man, I feel theexact same way.
I want to get this and I wantto give them credit, but very
rolls.
I remember being at theBiveswing Dynamic Summit in 2019
, and I was really new man.
I was still an early golfingmachine guy, barely had a track

(10:44):
man, just didn't reallyunderstand the body very much at
all.
And Terry said the more I learn, the less I know.
And that's kind of a truestatement for what you just said
there.
And it's true, man, because itdoes seem like all these things
that we continually learn, man,it would have been nice to know
those from the jump.

Speaker 2 (11:04):
Yeah, and I just think that, like you know, if we
were going to run, if we weregoing to start an academy that
raised great teachers, I thinkneuroscience has to be in the
first year.
And it's not neuroscience, it'snot heavy, I don't know much
about it, but I kind ofunderstand how we learn, what's
the process of how we learn?
Why do we detect feareverywhere we go?

(11:25):
And these are things that aremore helpful.
Like it really helps the playerto realize that when he gets
freaked out all the time on thegolf course, he's not, he just
has a mesocortex that's beendetecting threats for 400,000
years.
And it's amazing when theylearn that they're less ashamed,
they're less guilty, but theyalso realize that 98% of what
they're afraid of is justperceived as not accurate.

(11:46):
And so when people understandthat that fear is false,
evidence that appears real and Iobviously didn't create that
acronym, but I love that acronymFalse evidence that appears
real.
Our brain is literally a threatdetection center.
Its whole goal for our life isthat we survive, not that we
thrive.
And so I think, as you look atthat, then you recognize neuro

(12:07):
pathways and you recognize howthoughts travel through the
whole system out into the golfclub.
You're really careful on kindof you know what you look to
change or grow.
And you look at guys and you'relike man, that guy's been like
that for 15 years.
I mean, let's remember, dude,that social media is a place

(12:29):
where the video that we see isthe 100th video.
It's normally in slow motionand there's no way that person
could do that on the first team.
You know what I'm saying.
I think that that's kind of theevolution is to now is that I
got to a point there, afterJustin Rose got to number one

(12:52):
After 15, when I kind ofreorganized myself.
I made Rosie like the center ofthe universe as a relate to my
career, because he told me look,I'm going for number one and
I'm not stopping till I getthere and I want you to be with
me.
And we went and we didn't stopand we worked really, really
hard.
We were structured, we wereefficient and we worked and we

(13:15):
worked and we worked and weworked and we worked and then
you gave Justin Rose the nicestcompliment I've ever heard a
coach give a player.

Speaker 1 (13:22):
I can't remember where it was, but you said when
you watched Justin Rose practiceyou would think that the guy
had never won anything in hisentire life.

Speaker 2 (13:31):
Yeah, and you know who's like that, even more so.
He's a member where I'm amember at our Steve Stricker.
Steve Stricker practice is fromeight till eight and he's a DJ,
yeah, well, yeah, vj has been awhole different psycho category
of hitting drivers out of thefairway bunkers for 10 hours in
100 degrees.
So VJ is my boy, but the bigman's not.

(13:54):
He's definitely not right, butStricker, it's like you know you
wouldn't go up to him on therange and be like you need to
borrow 20 bucks.
Like man, you just hit 700balls and you just want to say
hey, I'm a router cup captain,you know who I'm taking.
I got Stricker on my team, bythe way that was a no brainer
pick to me.
Okay, he's a great player, he'sforget about it.

(14:18):
I mean, he's arguably, in thelast 20 years, one of the
greatest players in the world,and that's starting in his 40s.
So I think that once Rosie gotto number one and then we kind
of had a fall off, but for noreal reason.
I mean, he's my boy, I text himevery single day last week,
that's my guy.
And then the pandemic kind ofhit.

(14:40):
I actually had Danny Willettduring that time too, and we
kind of came back to a goodplace where he was playing great
on that fall apart.
And then the Rosie thing justkind of once we got to the top,
it was like there was almostnothing left to do between one
another.
That's why what ensues is stilla deep friendship or
brotherhood, because that'llnever change.

(15:03):
And then the pandemic hit.
And then Lydia co called me andwe worked for two years and
then, when she got to number one, she moved to San Fran.
So we parted ways after she gotto number one and then I
remember just sitting there andgoing, okay, like I've helped
three players get to number onein the world and within that

(15:24):
happening within two months,these relationships have
dissolved, I'm probably going tobe 0 for 4.
So I've got to this point in mycareer, putting everyone ahead
of myself, and now, from heretill the end, I'm going to put
myself and my business ahead ofmy players, and that's what the
evolution comes from.
Michael, as you look at the prosender, remember, my first

(15:48):
swing coach is Greg McCatt,who's pretty much at the top of
the hierarchy of the golfingmachine.
So this might be the firstthing I ever learned, so like at
11 years old, like doing thisand doing this and hitting tires
and shaking hands like this andopening my hips.
So I never really veered farfrom accumulators my whole time

(16:10):
in golf instruction and I'vebeen really lucky to have
friends who are ahead of thecurve as it relates to ground
forces.
I met Scotland in 2007, actuallygot Scott the job with swing
catalyst, the Craig Davies, allthose guys in Kairos, and

(16:33):
physios and osteos people likePhil Cheatham.
So that was always kind ofsomething I didn't really
discuss much with people is thatI'd been consulting people like
Sasha over a decade.
So all that's very important tome, so to put yourself around

(16:55):
people who are smarter than youat what they know, and I think
that what happens sometimes withthe modern golf teacher is
there's a real stressful aspectto wanting to understand 3D and
force plates and trackman and sothen you understand 10% of all
of it and then you just soundgood and absolutely destroy golf

(17:16):
swings.
So I'm kind of part ofresponsible for that whole
generation, but I wasn'tlearning it myself.
If I wanted to get force platestuff done, I would just send
them to Scott.
If I wanted to get 3D done, Isend them to Mark Bull.

Speaker 1 (17:36):
I want to be really fair to something though, sean
If you're going to take creditfor some of that, I continually
post to Instagram and YouTubeand am definitely guilty of a
lot of the same things, so weall have to be responsible here.
But, at the end of the day, onething that I want to make
really clear is that I kind oflook at what David Ledbetter did

(17:58):
in terms of creating anindustry for us.
When it comes to creating thisteam atmosphere.
Okay, when it comes to puttingyour ego aside and going, I'm
going to get an expert in hereand we're both going to learn
from this expert together, andwe're all going to be better for
it.
I truly do believe that you wereone of the first coaches to

(18:22):
really put the ego aside andkind of give us including myself
like this blueprint for hey,get smart people on the team.
Luckily, my assistant is anactual biomarkerist with a
master's degree from Auburn, soobviously a very smart young man
.
But you're the one that kind oflaid that template out that
it's okay not to always have theanswer, but to know where to go

(18:45):
and get the answer, and then,when you find it, put that guy
on the payroll, so you alwayshave him around.

Speaker 2 (18:50):
Yeah, I think so.
To me it just took the you gotto be able to.
You see that corporations right, you put people, you don't put
sales guys in marketing, youdon't put executives in research
and development.
So I'll sum myself as theoverall kind of manager of the
team.
And so I have a player whoisn't putting.

(19:13):
Well, he's kind of seen a lot ofputting coaches and that's not
really fixed it.
So then we go to aneuroscientist and while he's
putting, we get a brain scan.
Why not?
Neuroscientist says wow, man,your thoughts are everywhere.
You're never present over aputt.
And so now, all of a sudden, itstarts to leave clues, because

(19:36):
we've been to these guys who areall great putting coaches, they
are knowledgeable, they knowhow to set up practice, and we
just have a player who continuesto hit the ball, hit the hole
more than anyone and make lessputts.
This isn't a yippy problem.
This is hitting the hole,making no putts.
Okay, so there's got to be asolution.
Right, like every problem onthe planet is, just some is a

(20:00):
solution that we haven't foundyet.
So to me, you know, I can'tsleep trying to figure out how
can I help this guy.
And it's not going to be on theputting green.
Obviously right Is what isgoing on?
How come he cannot have accessto his subconscious while he's
over putts and he goes and doesthat and you know we'll see
eventually over time how well itworks.

(20:22):
But it ain't, it's not a mentalthing.
It ain't mental, I don't I, andI think that that word is just.

Speaker 1 (20:28):
I agree 100%, thank you.

Speaker 2 (20:30):
That word is so overused.
Look, mental is to me, mentalis PTSD, mental is multiple
personality disorder, mental isschizophrenia, that's mental,
okay, mental is not the factthat you feel pressure over a
six foot putt.
That's just not it to me.

(20:52):
And I think that problem withgolf is there's a lot of
co-dependence in golf.
So you know, regardless of thetrauma that you had as a kid
which we all did and I would sayoverachievers probably had the
right amount I'm not quite surehow to define that, but they had
to go through it to get to it Idon't think it matters that

(21:15):
much if I know how to get intoalpha theta for 50 seconds at a
time and be present.
And so when they measure, youknow with the brain waves, when
they measure alpha theta, gamma,beta, delta literally can show
this is someone in love.
Oh look, they're in alpha at asuper low frequency.
Here's someone who's inabsolute anger right now.

(21:36):
They're off the charts in gammain frequency.
So when someone's actuallypresent at between 5 and 15
hertz, they're in alpha theta.
That's been measured.
It doesn't need to be.
So how do you become present?
We're always present, it's just.
It's just our thoughts thattake us out of it.
So how can I readjust to beback to here and be here right

(21:57):
now?
It's just, I'm just focused onit, that's it.
There's nothing else going on,and then it's a.
It's a, it's a train thing.
So I get these young playersnow.
I never used to do this in thepast and meditation is part of
our program because there's justtoo much.
It's not about being a Buddhist.
There's just too much data onthe importance of it, just the
pure importance of it, andsomething I've always done

(22:20):
myself.
But that was, I mean, trust me,when I was doing that as a kid.
It wasn't, I definitely wasn'tperceived as being cool for
doing it.
It wasn't a cool thing, so tospeak.
And so, yeah, the ProSender is,you know, is a is a tool that
really helps people and it alsodrives a solid business model,

(22:41):
which is this is a businessright, because I didn't do
anything like this for 20 years.
My buddy was like man, are youselling out?
And I was like, how am Iselling out when I'm helping
people have better wrist angles?

Speaker 1 (22:55):
I think this is the real Sean that I've met.
This is the most real Sean I'veever met.
I love this, Sean.
This is you selling out.
You should have sold out yearsago, brother.
Good for you.

Speaker 3 (23:04):
Sean, could I ask you ?
You take your information froman enormous landscape of sources
.
You know you pull on teachingsor insight from all sorts of
areas to inform what you do.
You know what are you lookingat now?
It sounds like neuroscience, asyou said earlier, is the thing
you would love to have startedwith.

(23:25):
You know to almost have that asthe foundation point.
Would it be fair to say that'sthe thing that you think is
going to be the most importantover the next three years, or is
there something else thatyou're looking at that you think
you know what?
This hasn't broken the surfaceyet, but this is going to be a
needle mover within golf, withinperformance, you know, over the

(23:46):
next three years, as somebody,as I said, who takes their
information and insights from somany different sources.

Speaker 2 (23:53):
Yeah, I don't know, I think it'll take this long to.
I think it'll take quite awhile to be able to make this
useful, to make it, I thinkit'll take.
I mean, the fact is, I've spoketo these people who are, you
know, they're excellent at whatthey do and they literally say,
look, we understand 10% of howthis thing works, you know, but
10% is better than what I have.

(24:13):
But it's kind of always beenlike this, like one of my first
tattoos damn, because you werein Jamaica is lyrics to
redemption song Right, right.
So emancipate yourself frommental slavery.
Numb, but ourselves can freeour mind.
When I finally put that there,I understood like, oh my God, my

(24:34):
whole life.
I thought it was outside of mebut I've literally shackled
myself to the confines of my ownmind.
So I feel much more now as acoach, as like just a peer
mentor, and you know I have alot of young men that I'm
coaching and young women, andyou know I've kind of made every

(25:00):
cardinal sin that you can makeas a coach.
I don't, I don't, I think I'mliterally almost out of mistakes
at this point.
I still can't tell you exactlywhat's right, but I'm completely
sold on what's wrong, and sohow the relationship with the
player works is, if you knowwhat's wrong, that's already a
good place to start, causepotentially when they come to

(25:20):
see you, they're doing somethings wrong.
A lot of that can be conceptual.
So once you change their,there's low hanging fruit and
then there's the fruit at thetop of the tree Right.
So there's the short termpicture and the big term picture
.
So the short term picture withthe young player like my lefty,
garret Higo, is that you know he, when he stood, he had a lot of

(25:44):
extensions, his lower back andhis feet were almost pigeoned in
.
So he's starting to have kneeissues and lower left side
issues in his back.
So as soon as we got his feetflared out slightly, which is
pretty natural for how you humanbeing stand, the problem with
when we look at, when we look atthe pelvis and the golf swing,
we look at the hips and stuff,but we don't really look at the
bones, and I think bones arefrom what I've learned from my

(26:06):
friends, it's really importantas it relates to creating torque
and force obviously causemuscles are, are inserted to
that.
So getting his feet like thatand then getting him to be in
more flexion with literallywithin and then trying to get
him to where he has more loft inthe takeaway, cause he kind of
got the club in and shut.

(26:27):
He's tricky cause he's the lefthanded golfer, is a right
handed guy and his left hand ishis left hand is quite like.

Speaker 3 (26:35):
I was always told, sean, that it was, that was a
great combination.
I mean, maybe that's reallyoutdated thinking, but I was
always told that was a greatcombo to play, to have a
stronger hand, almost oppositethe way you play the game.
But is there any?

Speaker 2 (26:47):
Yeah, and and, and you know I was also told that.
You know that.
You know I also read somewhereas a kid that it was liberty and
justice for all right.
So what the thing to me is like, for a right like that would
give me the ability to pull,okay, and and I could.

(27:08):
You know I can pull, but I alsohave to push right.
So if my, if my heels and toesare creating couple forces, then
my hands are too, and if I'mall pulled with no push, I'm
probably going to be steep andacross it and shallowing with
side bend.
So with with the player likeEric, we get loft on the club
and keep the club in front ofhim and get his feet flared and

(27:30):
he starts to hit it better rightaway.
Well, that he should have hitit better.
That the problem with musclememory that we have to be
careful of is like there's a lotof people out there who are
paralyzed, so muscle memory as atheory is a bit.
My point is is that how come?
You know how come vets who havelost a limb at war still have
steering pain in their foot eventhough they don't have a foot

(27:53):
for like up to a year after theylose their foot right, it's
because the memory is, it's allhere.
So the person who's paralyzedstill thinks of walking.
It's just that neuron istraveling through the central
nervous system.
It just doesn't get past thepoint where there's a fracture
to the and where the spinal cordis severed.
Period, that's it for today.

(28:14):
He might have to stand on thetee and go.
Man, this club feels really outhere and really open.
But if he knows that, if hedoes that when he hits it it
goes where he wants to, then hejust has to be good at being
discomfort, like havingdiscomfort, and I think that you
know that's important.
Like, a big thing I've beenthinking about lately is, you

(28:35):
know, is challenging really, howwe train, because we have to
remember, right, that I'm goingto sit there on the range and I
really prefer how I do things.
I really prefer what I like totalk about.
I really prefer this, this andthat.
Well, in most cases that playeris not there to listen to me
talk about what I prefer.
I have to, you know, I have totailor, make a suit to them, so

(28:59):
the wool that I'm going to useis going to be the finest
quality, but the suit alwaysgoing to look different because
if you, michael and I get suited, the suit could be the same,
but everyone's going to thinkit's a different suit because it
looks different and it's stillthe same dynamic in the sense
that it's still very fine.
Marina wool, do you know what Imean?
So I think that over time youknow if, if I was to simplify

(29:24):
everything and say, when someonecomes to me, when you finish a
round of golf, whether you're inthe southwest of England or
whether you're up in Ohio orwhether you're in Florida, no
one asked you where you were atP5.
No one asked you if youshallowed the club.
People simply asked you whatdid you shoot?
Right, that's it.
So when I start a lesson withsomeone or I'm working with

(29:47):
someone, there's the big pictureof like.
We can manifest this patternover five of six years of really
passionate and mundane work.
Just dotting eyes crossing T's.
Dotting eyes crossing T's right, you can write a beautiful
paragraph, but if the grammar isnot good, it's not going to
read very well.
Even though it could be fromyou know, it could be from Poe
or Elliott or Kipling.

(30:07):
If you don't get the commas inthe right place and all that,
it's not going to read very well, so that those are the
mechanics of writing.
Now, most everyone can learn todo that.
Now, not everyone can learn tothink like Kipling or these
types of individuals, but youget my point.
So, as it comes into golf, it'sthe same kind of ideas is how do

(30:30):
I get Ben on to get the facemore squared, impact and get the
angle of attack less steep?
That's all I care about for Ben.
Okay, having less loft andhaving less attack angle.
That's what we work on, anddoing so as we worked on the
club face and then we worked onthe right arm.

(30:50):
I work on the right arm.
I don't really think about thelead arm very much, to be honest
with you, depending if thatperson needs it or not.
But Ben is also right handedgolfer, left handed person.
So Ben's very good at this andthere's nothing wrong with this.
I'm just saying that that alsoneeds that.
They can't both be doing that,because then you're in big
trouble, right?

(31:11):
So you know, in two years Ben'sgone from 172 to 185 balls feet
on the golf course and peoplelike how'd you do it?
And I'm like I just showed himwhat was already inside of him,
like because you're not going tosee me, market, come to me and
I'll get you 13 miles an hourball speed.
Basically, ben was hitting it.
Ben was hitting it really weak.

(31:33):
I didn't do anything to him tomake him faster, except put in
the right principles that overtime they really really helped
us.
So Ben's misses still high,right.
It still spins like a thousandover what it should and it
probably always will, right?
So when guys say you know, oh,that was my old swing, I was
like no, that's your swing.

(31:53):
So when you talk to theneuroscientist he goes yeah, you
know.
When they say they're liketheir old swing or their old
movement pattern, he goesremember, you're always running
from that 15 year old kid.
So the 15 year old kid who gotstuck underneath them and slid
and jumped and flipped it andwhen he was 15, that was a five
yard draw.
When he was 25, it was a 40yard snap hook.
You're always working againstthat kid Like that is.

(32:17):
That is in the DNA, that isjust weaved in there, right?
I'll give you an example.
So I was working with thisplayer one time I won't name
names and he just looked to melike he needed way more linear
in both directions.
He needed to get right more.
He needed to get left more.
He needed to stand up faster.
He needed to do all thesethings that are really uncool.

(32:37):
Michael and we're doing it andhe's hitting it so much better,
but he's fascinated with keepinghis elbow bent and rotating,
which I just think is there'snot been many boxers who
succeeded by keeping their armbent when they hit somebody.
There's not been many pitcherswho succeeded in keeping their
arm bent as they threw the ballRight, so I think this arm has

(32:58):
to get pretty long.
I just I agree.

Speaker 1 (33:00):
Yeah, okay.
I'm just saying I don't know alot, but my friends call me
crazy, but your right arm startsrelatively straight when you
set up to it, so like this ideathat we want to shorten the
lever by bending it a bunchdoesn't make a ton of sense to
me either, sean.

Speaker 2 (33:14):
Like I said, dude, I'm not that smart, but my
friends are super smart and thenI'm just better at talking than
they are.
So, basically, like I thinkthese are all important things.
Like if I, if I straightened myleft arm with a club in my hand
and try to hit balls with myarms straight, you should see it
All I can do is top it andshank it.
When I bend that thing and Ilet it straight and I can really

(33:35):
move it.
Now, when this gets too bent, Ijust top it and shank it.
When it gets straight, I canreally move it.
So the interesting thing is,when I'm doing left arm, you'll
see a little more linear andyou'll see me kind of pop out of
it with the body too.
And then when I go right hand,you just see my right hand wide
with a hell of a lot morerotation from my body.
So it's it's quite interestingwhen you do that with somebody.

(33:58):
Think about the idea that wewant the left arm straight and
the right arm on the rib cage.
If you hit balls individuallywith those hands, you would not
do that.
So you know that that's kind ofwhere I've been.
Like I think my wife would evensay like she hasn't seen me
this content in a while, becauseI'm making my own schedule,
like I'm leaving today to go toToronto to do an outing for

(34:19):
Microsoft tomorrow, and then I'mflying to San Diego to do the
same thing there, and then onSunday David Woods and I are
shooting a ton of content.
I've already seen all my guysthat I worked with in the last
couple of weeks, so now I'm notgoing to go to Vegas, and I
think that that's kind of thekey.
You know, I love it, man.

Speaker 3 (34:39):
John Kalajski yeah.
Sorry sorry to just just whatyou were saying about you know
over the last few topics.
I mean, you talked about beinga Sherpa to the golfers you work
with and you talked about, youknow, being a mentor.
I'm really interested in whohas been the most impactful, who
have been the most impactfulmentors to you, not only in your

(34:59):
professional life, but in thesort of balance that you talk
about achieving now in your life, where you are, in your own
words, more content than you'veever been.
So who are those who have thekey mentors been for you?

Speaker 2 (35:15):
Well, obviously, my dad, my dad's a pretty
impressive guy, you know.
He grew up in abject poverty inGlasgow, moved to Canada in 67.
And just as a fantastic, justjust a fantastic man, period,
like you know, when my, when mydad passes, there's going to be
speakers in the parking lot nextdoor, right, Like this is a

(35:38):
quality human being, like lovelyguy.
So I mean, look, the moment ofconception almost is like 90% of
where your life's going to goright.
And so I was really fortunateto be born to them and I can't
wait to see them today becausethey're now my dad's 84, my
mom's 80.
But I think, I think theuniverse is going to curse me

(35:58):
with my mother until she's about120.
My mom still to this day seesme on TV and text me and says,
are you eating?
And it's like, mom, I'm 50years old, I don't worry, I
promise you all.
But just, I think in our mom'seyes we're about this big, all
of us, you know all of us Golfwise, greg McCatten in Canada,

(36:22):
ben Kern and Jack McLaughlin,who were kind of, you could kind
of say they're the Bob Ford ofCanadian golf, the Dave Podis of
Canadian golf, so directors ofgolf who could play, instruct,
run a pro shop, run a business.
Those guys were big time mentorsof mine.
I'd say, on the road, butchHarman's been the person who

(36:47):
kind of took me under his wingas it related not to the golf
swing but to the thing to like,to the zoo.
You know where zoologists right, our species are pro golfers,
so trying to understand thatspecies.
And then you know Mark Bull,scott Lynn, craig Davies, george
Gankes, kevin Duff, I mean itgoes.

(37:09):
I mean who's not really who's,who's not been someone that,
andy plumber, I've beeninfluenced by, by everyone you
know, so I think it's.
Everyone thought that I wasjust this guy who could, you
know, talk his way into theWhite House without a credential
, and I have players on the assand give them motivational
speeches.
I've been on my P's and Q's fora long time.

(37:29):
I just never have.

Speaker 1 (37:33):
There's one thing I want to point out there, sean.
I told Dan before we startedthis I've heard things you know
we all do, and it's really hardto be the person you present
yourself to be.
But one thing that I would liketo really share about you is
that I have watched you fromafar for you know, the past
several years and I'm at a fairamount of events, and one thing

(37:56):
that I always think is theclassiest thing that you do,
sean, is that every singleperson you see on that driving
range, you know who they are.
You shake their hand, you givethem 30 seconds, 45 seconds, 15,
whatever, whatever they need.
Man Like you are always the guyout there who is like super
upbeat, super positive and I gotto be honest man like Justin

(38:18):
Rose is my favorite player ofall time because I consider him
to be a true sportsman.

Speaker 3 (38:23):
And the definition of that word.

Speaker 1 (38:24):
Like he's just a super classy grinder and I was
mega excited to see what he wasable to accomplish at 43 at this
year's Ryder Cup.
But like you don't operate,sean, with those types of people
with that kind of intensity.
Tiger Woods, justin Rose, lydiaCo those are warriors and what
you've talked about today islike you have to be a warrior

(38:47):
yourself to be in that crowd,because those people aren't
going to put up with people whocan't get it done and can only
talk and can't do.
So I think that you really haveearned every step of the way
and I applaud you, sean, becauseyou've certainly been somebody
that I've looked up to and youdefinitely have put out the
blueprint for people like me inthis, in this industry.

(39:08):
So thank you.

Speaker 2 (39:10):
And the thing is, michael, like that means
everything to me, like thatreally does.
But the thing is we didn't.
What I'm trying to get youngercoaches to understand is we
didn't do this on purpose.
This was just about like, okay,we're super curious, now think
about society, right, I don'tknow what it is in the UK, but
probably the same.
But one of the things growingup is curiosity kills the cat

(39:33):
and no.
So that's a great thing if youwant to create generations of
robots, of people who just, youknow, just tote the line and
democracy, that's a whole otherpodcast we can have on that.
But curiosity is about what itis.
And then, obviously, you know,then I had these two sons and
they're born and then I got tosupport them and you know we're

(39:53):
trying to think of okay, I heldoff on social media until,
basically, I think it was theend of the quarantine.
I'd never done it and I can seenow that I probably should have
.
But you can do it in a waythat's also like, you know,
where there's integrity.

(40:14):
But it's a great business tool,an unbelievable business tool,
as long as it's authentic for me, anyways, as long as authentic
and other people do their thing.
Look, if you're doing this andyou're working hard, I'm your
biggest fan.

Speaker 1 (40:28):
Like Coach Prime says , don't let my confidence affect
yours.

Speaker 2 (40:33):
Yeah, you know who said Denzel said something
really cool when he won theOscar.
They said what do you have tosay to your critics now?
And he said you know, I don'treally have anything to say.
And then they said well,anything?
And he said you know, I'm sorrythat my angels agitated your
demons, right?
So I learned a long time agothat I learned a long time ago

(40:55):
that that if I have an issuewith someone, you know, I'll
just teach him.
My son the other day he waspissed off about something and I
.
This was the old Wayne Dyerthing that Wayne used to talk
about, where Wayne said when yousqueeze an orange, what comes
out?
And everyone in the audiencesaid orange juice.

(41:15):
He said why?
And they said that's becausethat's what's inside of it.
And so when golf, society,politics, religion, whatever,
whenever you get squeezed likeyou're the orange.
Now, whenever you get squeezed,you know it can feel like the
metaphor is not the same,because it could feel like I
feel like this because of thatperson and that person.

(41:36):
When I'm with them, it makesyou feel that way, but all
that's really doing is showingyou is, when they squeeze you at
showing what's inside of you.
So that's what I really enjoyabout the difficulty of life.
It kind of gives me a waybetter understanding of where
I'm at versus the speech that Igive on that exact thing, and so
the nice thing to note is thatthe world can't squeeze me, and

(41:59):
somehow my 15 and 12 year oldstill squeeze the shit out of me
and I still think it's theirfault.
I love it man.

Speaker 3 (42:06):
That is Sean.
That is Sean.
Can I ask you something, sean?
This might be a really binaryquestion and we've covered so
much ground.
It's fascinating, but how doyou measure success?

Speaker 2 (42:18):
Well, that you know what I think that changes, right
, you know, and for you, dan,you could say the same thing in
your life, right?
And so I'm 49.
Sure, I think at one point itwas you know, at one point it
was a lot of you know, it wasmonetary, it was getting, you

(42:40):
know, getting awards, it wasbeing known, it was all that.
And then I think over time itstarts to change as life kind of
shows itself to you or youstart to understand it for what
it's always been.
And I think now, like, the ideaof success to me is that when I
lay down at night I fall asleepquickly and when I wake up I'm
really excited about going outand doing what I do.

(43:02):
I think that's it, because Ithink if you've done all the
other stuff and you know thatNervon is not going to come from
more of any of it, you know.
So we have to be able torecognize like these
trajectories where we go frombeing self-centered to then
going in service to others, whenwe go into worldly rewards, to
this attachment from all of it.

(43:23):
So I feel like there's there'skind of this first wave of like
this Western mentality and thenwhere that wave starts to go
into decline.
So where the intelligence isnot fluid anymore, it's more
crystal, it's more wisdom thanknowledge.
Then that next trajectory is alittle bit more eastern, and I
stole that from Arthur Brooks inthe book Strength to Strength,

(43:45):
which is fantastic.

Speaker 1 (43:47):
That's great man and that's you know.

Speaker 2 (43:49):
I wish I came up with any of this.
I wish any of this was original, but I've just been really
lucky to.
I've been really lucky to be insome material You've got to get
a source of material.
Yes.

Speaker 1 (43:59):
Yeah, no, so we're out of time, unfortunately with
Sean and Sean I have to askreally really quick.
I've been privy to see a coupleof things from some of these
tour players.
That really blows my mind and Ihave a question really quick
before we get you out of herebut what is the most athletic
thing that you have ever seen MrWoods do that wasn't related to

(44:21):
golf or on a golf course?

Speaker 2 (44:26):
Not really, because he was pretty banged up when we
started.
So he's really good at call ofduty, yeah, but the most
athletic thing I've ever seen inmy whole life was Cameron Champ
hitting five iron over in afairway bunker in Vegas over a
fairly high lip, and you knowhis.

(44:46):
You know his impact conditionsover a high lip from two, 35 to
two feet.

Speaker 1 (44:54):
That's impressive yeah.

Speaker 2 (44:56):
Cameron, for the rest of your life, you know, if you
ever intend to practice again.
If you do intend to practice,what you should do is just get
in the fairway bunker with ahigh lip and hit 100 balls a day
and you won't ever have to heara word from me.
You should have.
You should have seen this video.
I mean the reason I took thevideos, because I wanted to see
a knife it right into the middleof the mound.
And then this thing came outand it went up and I you know,

(45:18):
it didn't matter that there waslittle kids around I couldn't
even avoid saying like Holy, andthis ball took off and I'm
watching it and I'm like there'sno way that's covering it and
it covered to like this.
And I just was like and he goes, that was good.
Hey, I'm like do you have?

Speaker 1 (45:34):
it.
That sounds about right for Camso once again.
Yeah, thank you so much, Sean,it's been great.
We really appreciated the timeit's been wonderful.

Speaker 2 (45:44):
For sure We'll do it again.

Speaker 1 (45:46):
For sure and for any of our listeners who, like I
said, don't don't know if Sean,like he said, he is somewhat
newer to social media in thepast few years.
But Sean fully performance golfyou can find him on social
media does a great job.
The pro sender an amazingtraining tool.
Even if you're not a worldclass golf coach.
This is something that you canuse.
Along with the videos that he'sput together with David Woods.

(46:08):
It's an amazing tool.
And for all the neurosciencegeeks out there that want to
start looking at some of that, acouple great places you can
start With.
That would be the focus band isa great place.
You can kind of start gettingsome information as well as
doing some breath work throughmeditation and using a product
like the neuro peak pro.
So Sean has definitely given usall a blueprint to get better

(46:30):
at golf and now, once again,it's up to us to do the work
with the information that we'vegained.
So thanks again to Mr Double D,to Mr Sean Foley, and until
next time, keep riding.
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