October 2, 2023 • 55 mins
Trillium Rose, a top golf coach with a unique perspective on the game, joins us for an enlightening conversation on the art and science of golf. Her expertise in motor learning, a discipline she studied at the prestigious Columbia University's Teachers College, offers an intriguing analysis of the sport – from the technique adjustments for individual players to the diverse pathways that the human brain can take to learning golf. Trillium, recognized as one of the Top 50 instructors in the US by Golf Digest and one of the Top 100 teachers by Golf.com, sheds light on the value of continuous learning and the dynamic growth of golf.
Our conversation takes us through the nuances of motor learning and its application in golf coaching. Trillium shares the importance of understanding, analyzing, and adjusting a player's technique, and the prominent role technology plays in delivering these insights. She also highlights the challenges of finding the right help and how motor learning can pave the way for tailored strategies for individual players. The art of coaching, she emphasizes, requires communication skills that can adapt on the fly and connect with athletes in real-time.
We finish our talk with reflections on the importance of humility, commitment, and the ability to learn from mistakes in golf. The difference in approach between US and international golfers provides an intriguing insight into the sport's varied styles. We also share our experiences of playing golf in Scotland, challenging our preconceived ideas about the game. Whether you're a seasoned golfer or just swinging your first club, there's inspiration and wisdom to be found in our conversation with Trillium. Tune in for a fresh take on golf, learning, and the joy of the game.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:06):
Hello and welcome to a new episode of Making the Turn
with Double D and the Dooch and, unfortunately, a small
programming note.
Double D is not feeling verywell this episode and is sitting
this one out, but luckily we'vegot such a tremendous guest
that I think we're going to beokay and we're going to go ahead
and soldier on.
So, in Double D's good spiritof the game, I would be more
(00:27):
than happy to introduce ourguest, who is none other than
Trillium Rose, who is just anamazing coach in the northeast
here in the United States and,in addition to be a director
instruction at the WoodmontCountry Club, she has also taken
a very unique journey into howshe chooses to coach her clients
and I think it's a really coolstory.
(00:48):
And Trillium has went back toschool and gotten a master's at
the Columbia University, at theTeachers College, getting that
in motor learning, and it isjust amazing what she brings to
the table in terms of helpingpeople understand how to change
a pattern and how to learn.
(01:09):
So we're very, very happy tohave Trillium on.
She's not only a great friendof mine and a great inspiration
and somebody I look up to andtry to be more alike, but she's
also a member of the Golf Digesttop 50 instructors in the
United States, as well as beinga member of the golfcom top 100
teachers.
So Trillium is one smart cookieand we're super happy to have
(01:31):
her.
So, without further ado, helloTrillium.
How are you today?
Speaker 2 (01:35):
Hi Michael, good to see you.
That intro makes me a littlenervous, uncomfortable.
Speaker 1 (01:40):
Why We'll just have a conversation.
It is, and that's the thing thatI like is that, trillium, it
was easy to find you becauseI've been a great admirer of
yours online and I think thatthe content you put out is very
thoughtful.
And it's always kind of easy tofind you, because if it's an
event where there's peoplelearning, there's normally a
(02:03):
group, and Trillium tends tofind herself towards the middle,
and not only that, but shealways looks great in her Jay
Lindberg clothing, so she alwaysstands out a little bit as well
, so that makes it even slightlyeasier to find you.
But you know, I think it'sinteresting that we always cross
paths at these learning events,and that's one thing that I
really want our listeners tounderstand is how committed you
are to learning about the gameof golf and how people learn and
(02:26):
how to kind of translate thosetwo.
Speaker 2 (02:29):
Isn't that the truth?
So that's a really nicestarting off point, because in
our industry, I think it'ssimilar to, say, fitness or
nutrition, where it's easy totake, I think, the clear cut
path.
Or maybe to say, all right,this is what I have always done,
or this is what I've alwayslearned, let's just do it that
(02:51):
way, yeah, right, or this iswhat, this is what someone I
really trust said I'm going todo exactly that.
Now, not to say you shouldn'ttrust somebody, and but I think
it's important to explore otherapproaches, other other
perspectives, and question andquestion everything, and not in
(03:13):
a negative way, but just in aokay.
Well, someone said that on thegolf channel.
Why did they?
Why what's really actuallygoing on?
Speaker 1 (03:23):
So I think it's so good.
Kevin Kirk, I know somebodythat you you like as well, but
Kevin Kirk always uses the wordkaizen, right?
And this, always this quest ofcontinuous learning and
understanding and I think that'swhat you're talking about is
just that you have a curiosity,right, and it's not.
I think some people in our kindof wavelength of thinking
(03:50):
sometimes we come off as beingkind of combative or maybe even
kind of constantly justquestioning things to question
them, when in reality we justhave this yearning to really try
to figure out the whole subjectinstead of just a very small
piece of it.
Speaker 2 (04:05):
That's, that's so right, and what's wonderful is
that there are people that haveexcelled in certain avenues.
So if I want to really learnabout, you know, track men,
numbers, I mean early on Jameslights had had been doing so
much and did a really good jobexplaining D plane before I was
really thinking about the Dplane, your swing direction,
(04:27):
angle, attack facing off.
So that's neat.
You know, parker McLaughlinsort of branding himself as
short game chef, right, thereare what about John John doing
the aim point?
And and Mark Swaney, mike, mikeSwaney, on aim point, I mean
there's just so many differentlevels that we can, we can sit
(04:48):
on level meaning maybe, maybeit's better like angle.
We're looking at this throughbiomechanics or through
performance, with nutrition even.
Or we're looking at the.
You know Lynn and Pia do such agreat job on their mindfulness
and like being aware of yourstate, your emotional state, and
(05:10):
what does that do to your game,as opposed to just thinking
about the technical, becausethere are so many different
dimensions to the humanexperience, not just I know what
I need to do.
Why can't I do it?
Speaker 1 (05:25):
Absolutely.
I mean that, that I mean you'respeaking to just kind of the
growth of the game.
I think right, and one of thethings that I was talking to
with Ryan Holly about the otherday on a different podcast was
how, you know, there's reallythis inflection point in the
game right now and you knowthere used to only be a handful
(05:47):
of people who knew about thesecertain subjects and they were
like really world class, but nowwe're starting to see the next
wave, right, the next wave ofinstructor who grew up and
didn't have to figure this outand came out of the gate with an
understanding of deep playingbecause of the work of James
lights.
You know there's and I honestlyam one of those right, I've
kind of been able to come in atthis great point and it's like
(06:08):
you're absolutely right, there'sso many competencies that go
into being a great competitivegolfer or even being somebody
that shoots 80 for the firsttime versus somebody currently
shooting 100.
You know there's a lot ofdifferent ways that you can
approach this and for somepeople maybe the low hanging
fruit is just general fitness.
You know there's also peoplethat I know who are great
(06:29):
players, like club champions,and they can't figure out why,
or they can't draw thecorrelation, why, you know, they
go on their buddies trip andthey shoot like 10 strokes
higher across the weekend andit's like, well, I don't know
how do you normally have thatmany bourbon and coax every
night Like, is the there's?
There's a trade off there, right?
So I mean, when you look at thehighest of levels, like what
(06:49):
we're seeing in the Ryder Cupand the Solheim Cup, you know a
lot of the players you seewearing a loop, and I promise
you they're not just wearing itbecause they get paid.
I promise you that there'ssomebody on their team that
looks at that.
And I think that that's reallywhere golf has changed.
Is there's room now for more?
In my opinion, with the currenttour and the way people work,
(07:11):
the teams are getting bigger,because I think people are
willing to be open to new ideasmore frequently now.
So you coming from motorlearning and me coming from,
let's say, the force plate side,right, we can be on the same
team and we can still be talkingabout a lot of the same end
goals, but we're trying to comeat it from various levels to see
which one is going to help usget there the quickest.
Speaker 2 (07:34):
That's right and I think we should.
We should recognize Dave, DavePhillips and Greg Rose for what
they did with TPI.
I think they took a really areally great kind of holistic
approach from the beginning.
They said, Listen, everyone'stalking about the club and the
ball and the swing, but whatabout the human body and what
(07:57):
about the testing?
The human body and where we areon that, let's explore it.
And they just they kind of tookthat next level in terms of
having a team checking.
I mean, they're looking atblood work, you know, they're
looking at all kinds of things3D.
So I really appreciate,appreciate how many ways there
are to to kind of measureourselves and to and to kind of
(08:22):
thoughtfully put a comprehensiveplan together.
Speaker 1 (08:26):
I don't know that this is widely known and I think
I'm okay talking about it, butI think it might be fun because
I know that you know a lot ofthe same people I do and
obviously I love the guys at TPI.
I think Greg is awesome andDave is awesome and I was
fortunate this past year to gustto walk the last 18 holes on
Sunday with Dave, which wasreally really cool to watch him
(08:49):
there with John obviouslygetting it done.
So that was just mega, megacool.
So I obviously appreciate those.
But do you know, kind of, whatthe genesis for TPI was?
Speaker 2 (09:02):
My understanding is the genesis was the body itself.
I mean exactly the issue or theconcept.
Like the concept, was peoplegetting hurt and you're asking
someone to do something thattheir body can't do or shouldn't
do, or if we're asking someoneto put a ton of torque and
(09:23):
speeds in certain joints, can wemake sure that they have the
range of motion and thestability and the mobility to do
that before we ask them to doit?
Speaker 1 (09:30):
For sure.
So the first guys that reallykind of looked at this were the
Australians.
So I don't know if you've seenit on Netflix yet, but you can
go and watch the America's Cupand it's about the 1983
America's Cup when literallyAustralia was the first team to
ever beat the New York YachtClub.
(09:52):
In 132 years.
They'd been having this thingin the New York Yacht Club at
one every year and Australiafinally got serious and wanted
to knock them off their peg.
And this was their opportunity.
This was their sport and theypoured all these resources into
it right, and they really gotall these really bright people
together that were reallymavericks and really just kind
(10:13):
of outside the box people andthey said, hey, if you wanted to
make the best yachtsman in theworld, what would you look for?
And they put together all thesedifferent groups and asked all
these amazing questions and atthe end of the day, what
Australia kind of figured outwas, if we can get good at sport
, we can get people to recognizeour little island out here.
That's not really got a wholelot of tourism going on and it's
(10:35):
very similar to what's kind ofgoing on now with the whole
concept of sports washing andhow countries are trying to use
sports to better their image andworld standings.
But it's really cool how therewere people who were listening
to the Australians and Greg andDave were definitely two of
those people right, and theybrought us something.
That I think is remarkablebecause, you know, I think the
(10:55):
concepts of motor learning arevastly difficult.
So I actually have a master'slevel biomechist on my payroll
and before you came on, I wastalking to Will about this and
he's like man, motor learning ishard and I was like really.
And he's like, yeah, reallyhard.
And I was like that'ssurprising.
He's like, yeah, he goes, itwas so hard he goes.
I actually started in motorlearning and chose biomechanics
(11:17):
because I thought it was easier.
So, like the motor learningstuff is really really hard and
I think it's so difficult for usas modern coaches to try to
wear the hat of everybodybecause, quite frankly, I don't
have the time or possibly evenhave the ability to learn as
much about motor learning as youalready know.
So it would make sense to bringyou into the team and let you
(11:38):
help us in that way, because nowwe're just getting to, you know
, solving problems, instead ofhaving to feel like I'm
reinventing the wheel.
So I applaud you and I thinkthere's definitely a lot of
camaraderie coming forth in thecoaching sphere.
Speaker 2 (11:52):
I totally agree with that.
I mean, it's like if you'retrying to fix a airplane, you
need specialists to kind ofweigh in on.
You need to be an electrician,you need the plumber, you need
the aerospace engineer who'sgoing to look at whatever else.
So yeah, I'm a huge fan ofcollaborating and kind of
pulling together.
And the other when you weretalking about the Australians, I
(12:14):
was thinking about the 74, Ibelieve, olympics.
When the Australians came backwith not one single medal and
the government said this isreally embarrassing.
They formed the AustralianInstitute of Sport, which then,
was kind of dovetailing of whatyou're talking about and
incubating really good athletes,but also putting together some
(12:37):
serious thought leadership whichwas backed by the government.
So there was a reallycollective effort to cultivate,
develop and really do it in asmart way.
And of course, now we knowwhere the Australians are
they're a leader in sport andathletic development.
Speaker 1 (12:56):
Yeah, it's unreal.
It's just so cool because Ithink that for so long.
I hate to say this, but youlook at some of our greats, some
of the best players in the game, all played with injuries, all
battled this and that throughouttheir entire careers and I
think a lot of that could beattributed to doing it the way
it had always been done.
(13:16):
There wasn't really a lot ofuniqueness.
When you look back at thehistory of golf instruction and
golf teaching, you knoweverybody kind of wanted to see
more or less the same things,but we also had a completely
different task than we do today.
We were very limited with theballada golf ball, with the fact
that it just wanted to spinlike crazy and it really limited
the athletic ability in termsof speed that you could apply to
(13:39):
the ball because of the spinrate.
So now that we're seeing that wehave a golf ball that suits an
athlete better in terms of itdoesn't want to spin, so you can
hit this thing really reallyhard and it doesn't go straight
in the air, you know it's reallydifficult to go to a tour event
and not find one of the groupshave at least one participant
with their left wrist taped up,and my firm belief in that is
(13:59):
because the modeling that we'reusing is very antiquated in a
lot of ways and I think thatwe're going to continue to find
that the pure.
You know, making a playerbetter through technique alone
approach is an approach and ithas worked in the past, but I
think that at a certain pointthese other developmental
factors have to be kind ofaddressed if you're trying to
(14:22):
holistically make the person abetter player, and I think that
that's why having somebody therewho's a motor learning expert
really helps the team.
Speaker 2 (14:33):
I know people picked up what you just said because
that was really insightful, andI'm thinking of all these
different examples of playersfrom all walks of life that are
that are trying to trying to getbetter and trying to level up
what they have, and I look atthis as well.
(14:54):
Okay, you are a human in frontof me with what you have right
now, right today.
What can you do today with that?
Now we're just going to rollour sleeves up and get into the
motor learning part, becausethis is my lane.
The mileage I call mileage, orthe experience, the number of
repetitions that that any givenperson has on a particular
(15:17):
movement plays, as such, a heavyrole in in how we're going to
move forward.
For example, someone that'splayed for 30 years and they
have a particular backswing,that might look and do something
that they've done for a longtime.
That's going to be a little bitharder to adjust or maybe to
(15:39):
find some field.
And someone that's starting forthe first week they're they're
a year into the game.
It's much more malleable thansomeone that's that's created
some patterns that are now.
That being said, old habits diehard, so why would I want to
change something if it's so, ifit's so reliable, like usually,
consistency is somethingeverybody wants in golf, so it
(16:01):
could be, it could it could.
It could be a movement thatsomeone may not like the look of
, but if it's consistent, wehave to.
We have to be really good andsure that we're going to want to
mess with that, because it'sgoing to be hard pressed to
change.
Speaker 1 (16:15):
And I throw something in there right there, because I
like what you just said and notfrom a from a technical
perspective in terms of liketrying to stay more in my lane
Right I would say that you'reabsolutely right because for the
most part, if it's a, let's say, 10 plus handicap that comes in
for a golf lesson, generally inthe first sentence, normally
(16:38):
the first three words I hearconsistency.
That's what they want, they gotto have it and like they're
just not going to be satisfiedwithout it, right, and at the
end of the day, generallyspeaking, before they get the
chance to tell me that I'vealready had them hit some warm
up shots and I have it there ontrack man or foresight or
whatever launch monitor I'musing at the time.
(16:59):
And the funny thing is is whenyou look at the standard
deviation of, let's say, theirclub path, it tends to be very
consistent onto itself, right,so the standard very, very small
.
And then when you startbreaking it down and start
really looking at the individualmetrics that make up their golf
swing, to your point, they maynot like the look of it.
(17:20):
However, it is very consistentonto itself.
So the interesting thing ishelping them understand that
they are very, very consistentand with this pattern, this is
what it's going to produce,right, and we're also able to
help them understand as wellthat.
You know, I think where wheretechnology can be helpful is to
(17:42):
your earlier point, which isthis person doesn't have the
same feel and the same amount ofreps as a scratch handicap
player.
I can tell a scratch handicapplayer to add duck their left
arm, left across their body, andthey might understand that, but
somebody who's like you know,basically, is this the heel or
the toe?
They're not going to quiteunderstand that, right?
So having the technology thereto kind of show them and modeled
(18:06):
for them, kind of what we'relooking for, man, it makes just
a simpler message for thatperson to take in, versus having
to rely on something they maynot have experience with.
Speaker 2 (18:16):
That's?
Yeah, that's right, I'm thinkso.
Let's say, let's go back tothis 10 handicapped, for example
.
So I've got a guy it was mylast lesson have an hour ago so
he's, he's, he comes in, he'sthey're missing, right?
Let's just see what's going on.
Take a look at shots watchingthe club path and I'm watching
(18:38):
the face and he's swingdirection and club path are
definitely left in the middle.
Single digits three, four, five, six sometimes an eight
negative.
So I'm looking at that, his, hiswrist at the top and he's got
in full extension over the clubstraight down.
So that in itself doesn'tbother me.
(18:59):
But I certainly don't see it alot on the high level players.
Because why?
Because then they've got to getit back into flexion coming
down.
So it's a lot of moving parts.
Guy doesn't even play that muchgolf or practice that much.
So I'm weighing that in too andhe's all feel tennis player
technique is not on his brain.
(19:20):
But if he can think ball flight, change direction, he can
usually kind of find somethingin his athletic kind of system
to do it.
So I did mention the okay, well,you're steep with an open face.
I you know the easiest thingwould be to just adjust where
(19:41):
that club is at the top.
It's a backswing thought.
It's at the top.
You know you don't have to doit through the swing.
That did not land whatsoever.
Not one little moment of thatwas gonna work.
Zero.
No, I figured that out fast,it's not a problem.
So I put some clubs down on theground in the direction of the
(20:03):
target and ball was in themiddle.
So probably three or four feetof grass in between the clubs or
a lemur, so you can seevisually, in a peripheral vision
, where that target line is.
So then I said, okay, I wantyou to imagine that you're gonna
swing kind of at a diagonal tothis.
You're gonna come in from herein the inside.
That resonated Right, Not how todo it, but just this is what
(20:26):
you wanna imagine.
So for him that was reallyeffective.
That was all he really neededto kind of manage that movement.
Speaker 1 (20:34):
You're spot on.
But I don't think that that'snecessarily true of just a 10
handicap either, right?
I mean, there's really goodplayers and they're terrified of
a golf lesson.
You know like they areabsolutely terrified to take a
golf lesson because and I'm nottrying to be mean to anybody but
they just they haven't foundhelp when they've went looking
for it.
Right, because maybe the coachwasn't as prepared or maybe had
(20:55):
just a very singular viewpointthat this player had already
heard.
Whatever the case may be, butthere are certainly a lot of
high level athletes that just dothings, whether they know about
them or not.
Dustin Johnson's always kind ofthe joke, right, like he
obviously doesn't understandvertical force, yet the guy
could dunk wearing Italianloafers, so he obviously knows
(21:16):
how to use them.
He might not be able to describethem to you, but I think that
there's beauty in that, and weas the coaches have to excuse me
have to sometimes make thosejudgment calls into how we want
to either lean into a client andreally try to help them learn a
new concept, because we thinkthat this is the only or the
(21:37):
best path forward, and thenthere's times where you have to
lean out a little bit, like youwere saying ago okay, well, that
approach was a mess and now wehave to find a way to
communicate with them, kind ofon the fly.
And I think that's beautifulbecause in my opinion you know
definitely motor learning stuffthere, but also the art of
coaching is another way.
We could say that right.
And I think that you know, if Ithink of motor learning, what I
(22:00):
tend to think of is, you know,there's a lot of coaches who
have always kind of done it oneway, but I think that the beauty
in motor learning isunderstanding like there are
different paths for everybodyand, yes, you can have success
with all of them, but this iskind of a measured approach to
how you want to move forwardwith somebody.
Speaker 2 (22:19):
Yeah, yeah, and I hear I mean you're a colleague
who said, well, motor learningis harder, it's just really wide
.
I mean I love numbers and mathis so much more simple than
English.
I think that's the comparisonhe's kind of talking about.
Like motor learning is reallythe nexus of psychology and
neuroscience.
(22:40):
So you're in neurophysiology,so like the brain functioning
and sending signals from yourprefrontal cortex three or CNS
down into the muscle spindlesthrough to the motor neurons,
like there's a lot in that chainreaction that has to happen
(23:01):
correctly but it uses.
So much of this discussion isabout how our brains process
things and what they do and howthey create networks and how
those networks change and howthat changes over development in
a skill development and generallifespan development, cause
there's also a lot of differentthings you'd want to factor in
depending on how old that personis.
(23:22):
So there's just a lot ofvariability in that and the act
of a synapse is a chemistry.
It's a chemistry reaction wherean uneven balance of potassium
and sodium between us wall ofthe cell creates this flash of
(23:46):
electricity which then goes downthrough the neuron to neuron,
like okay, but then what doesthat output look like?
I can't really measure all thatstuff, whereas what we love so
much about biomechanics andtechnical discussions is it's so
measurable.
Speaker 1 (24:07):
For sure.
Speaker 2 (24:09):
And there's something really clean and neat and
thorough and secure about that.
And I am with you 100% onlooking at technique, because
you can be sure of it.
When someone says how can I,how can I can do it with a
practice swing, but I can't doit with a ball.
(24:29):
Now we're into motor learning,like okay, now it gets really
hard.
Speaker 1 (24:34):
Yeah, I couldn't agree more.
I mean, I think that most ofthe literature that you read
that isn't about technicalswings is probably about
transference of skill right andlike I think honestly that it
gets mislabeled so much becauseI don't think that I work with a
lot of high end players, kidsand young adults that win a lot
(24:55):
of golf tournaments and none ofthem have psychological issues,
none of them are what I wouldcall mentally damaged or
anything like that.
Yet when I meet parents andthey want me to take on a young
person, they tell me about allthis trauma that this poor kid
has went through.
And I'm like there've been agolf course, what's going on at
(25:16):
the?
I've been to a lot of golfcourses, like they're pretty
chill environments, like what'sgoing on here, and it's just so
interesting because I think thatwe mislabel as being weak
minded or not being a finisheror all those things.
But to your point, I reallydon't think it's so much of that
as it is the ability totransfer the skill that those
(25:37):
same parents see on the practicetee to the tournament tee right
.
And I think that you're rightthere.
I think that there is somedeeper understanding in your
clients and understanding like,hey, here's the thing, the skill
that we got to make better.
But, most importantly, I thinkwhere you can really help is
this is how we're going topractice this skill, to transfer
(25:59):
it and to play to where you cantrust it and I applaud you,
because that's really important.
Speaker 2 (26:04):
That's so right, that's right and I'll just I'll
put a little extra on that.
So some comes in, says I can't.
I can do it here if I can't doit there.
My first question, and aoutward question I'm also
thinking this is well, can youreally do it on the range Right,
like that's number one?
Speaker 1 (26:23):
How many people do you think actually okay, so I'm
not gonna.
I mean, obviously I introducedyou and told everybody where you
work, but you work at a privateclub and you work with mostly,
I would imagine, members of thatclub, right?
So I would imagine that it's avery good reflection of the
people that are probablylistening to this podcast.
(26:44):
So, with that being said, howmany of the people that you're
working with right now and playgolf at that club do you think
actually understand, like from abenchmark perspective, what is
good for them?
Speaker 2 (27:00):
Well, I'd like to think my students have a really
good understanding.
Speaker 1 (27:05):
It's tough, though right, because, like Ego's so
tied in.
Speaker 2 (27:09):
Yes, and it's misleading and there is great
research that's indicated thatto be a common thing.
So Bob Bjork had done somegreat work on using the
psychology department at UCLA,some great work on perception of
practice versus effectivenessof practice, specifically
(27:35):
blocked and random.
So blocked being I'm going tohit the same shot to the same
spot and then random, I'm goingto vary my targets and my
distances and I'm going to domore what I would do on a golf
course.
So I have a lot to say.
I'm blocked and blocked andrandom and kind of.
(27:56):
We've touched just a moment onexternal versus internal cues,
and that's another one.
So both of these kind of versesI said verses, but, but I
actually think there's so muchmore nuanced and and if you
treat them in a nuanced way, youjust have so much more success
rather than do I do this or that.
(28:17):
Well, the answer is it depends,depends, yeah.
Speaker 1 (28:21):
I think that that's what we're finding through
societal fabric right now.
Right Is like the world isn'tas black and white as we once
thought it was.
You know, there's a there's alot of shades of gray in between
and I think you're exactlyright.
You know, I would say I'vereally tried hard, on a personal
note, to find more joy in thegame of golf this year.
There's been a long periodwhere I haven't enjoyed it very
(28:43):
much, not because I haven'tplayed well and shot good
numbers, just because I haven'tfound very much joy with it.
So I've been pairing less than13 golf clubs in the bag and
I've been playing golf courses,you know, that are more fun and
user friendly and shorter, andI've really been having fun.
But I think to your point andwhat I'm trying to say is that
(29:06):
for such a long time I've beenso technical when I've tried to
be almost like a surgeon when Iapproach golf, because that's
kind of how I tend to think ofgolf, with my role and what I do
.
However, when I go into playermode, you know I it's really
hard to perform at a high leveland to have all those internal
things going through your headbecause we need to be, you know,
(29:29):
creative and able to adapt andable to process large amounts of
stimuli on the golf course, andwhen you're trying to be all up
tight, it just doesn't leave alot of room for that.
So I think that there's a timeand a place to where my
technical precision I can leanthat end of that part of me.
But there's also times, man,where you're hitting one out of
(29:49):
you know foot high, rough andthe ball's chest high and like
throw the math out.
You got to figure out a way toget this thing kind of back into
play.
So I love what you're sayingthere, because I don't think
that very many people look at itthat way.
I think that they try to bethis or that, red or blue,
whatever the case may be.
Speaker 2 (30:07):
This is a lot like music and other sports too.
Like, let's say, you've got acouple measures and you play the
violin and it's a technicalmaneuver with your fingers and
the string and the sound and youkeep getting caught up on it.
Well, okay, that would be agood idea to go back to those
(30:27):
and really feel in your fingershow that's supposed to feel, get
that right, get that right overand over block practice.
Feel it, feel it, get it right,get it right.
But also be thoughtful whileyou're doing that initial
practice to really work throughwhat that progression has to do.
What does that have to feellike?
(30:48):
Same thing with delivering theclub.
I mean, I'm so into the wristbeing the wrist angles and wrist
and how you move the club withyour wrists through impact.
I'm kind of a stickler throughthat because this A, you can get
injured, but B, if you'retrying to deliver a club solidly
and efficiently, you do need tohave certain parameters.
(31:08):
You just do.
There's just physics involved.
So how we go about that is oneway.
So then you get your repetition, you get your feeling on that,
you can kind of make it flow.
Then let's add that to thelarger scope.
Let's add the rest of the pieceso you can kind of blend it in.
(31:30):
So you're going to play it,play it, play it.
Does it then fall into place?
But you don't want to be in aspot where, okay, I'm coming to
the now, I need to lift myfinger here, I need to press
harder there.
This is reminding me of golf.
Thinking too much Overthinkingisn't productive.
Overthinking if you've alreadydone your work, which you have
(31:51):
in golf, it's not going to be agreat addition to your brain.
When you're kind of going backto that online processing where
you're either overcontrolling oroveranalyzing, it's one thing
to do it afterwards, after youhit the shot and you're like
okay, I know what I did, I wantto kind of work through, but you
do that to get the feel back.
(32:13):
The feel is what we need whenwe're playing.
Speaker 1 (32:16):
What I hear you saying too is and I think
there's some real beauty in thisis that I think it's really
important that we approach ourpractice with some intention,
and I think that that reallydoesn't happen very much.
And what I mean by that is likeintentional practice, right,
like okay, I've done my warm-upand I notice that my club path
(32:40):
is, let's say, a little morerightward than we would like to
see it.
Okay and okay, cool.
So my intention is that I'mgoing to hit the next five shots
and after those five shots Iwant to see that that club path,
on average, has shifted more tothe left.
But I don't think that wereally see that right.
I think we see people that getlost in the result, and as long
(33:03):
as the ball winds up close tothe target, the ends tend to
justify the means and they kindof fall for that trick time and
time again and they think thatthey found the secret that
they've always been missingevery time they go to the
driving range and then, just asquickly as they get to that
first tee, they realize theydidn't really learn anything in
that practice and they're justas lost as they've always been.
So you know.
Speaker 2 (33:24):
I think you hit the nail on the head with the word
intention.
It's probably where we shouldhave started, because that is,
you can't go anywhere with with,with with change.
You can't make any changes ifyou aren't clear on what your
intention is.
Speaker 1 (33:44):
I agree with you.
I have a question.
I want to get this end, becauseI think this is where you
really get to shine a little bit.
I'm going to ask you to put onyour motor learning I hate to
use the word expert, but I'mgoing to go ahead and cheat a
little bit because I can't thinkof a better one.
I'm going to go ahead and sayyou know, you're going to be a
(34:06):
motor learning expert, hat on.
And, from the motor learningperspective of things, what are
you looking at right now andwhat do you think is going to be
really important in terms ofmotor learning in the next three
to five years?
Speaker 2 (34:24):
I am looking in my own time, outside of my lessons.
I'm looking at the group ofpeople that have already
committed to wanting to change.
They know they want to change,they're committed to it, but
they need to find out what to doand how to really be there.
(34:45):
So not the people that arestruggling to get motivated to
practice or they don't likepractice.
I'm talking to the people thatare like boom, I got to practice
.
All right, now what do I do?
Speaker 1 (34:55):
Yeah, you're high achievers.
Speaker 2 (34:57):
The high achievers are, you know, the operators,
the people that actually willget there, and I'm looking at
this not entirely through a golflens, but through a motor
learning lens, and this appliesto just behavior in life as well
.
So that's where I'm spending alot of time, and the second step
(35:22):
after that is reallyunderstanding where you are with
something and where you want tobe with something.
Speaker 1 (35:31):
Right, and I think that's beautiful too, because I
get frustrated because there's alot of people that mean well in
the coaching space and theyconstantly tell me that you're
not allowed Sorry, our phonesare ringing there.
They constantly tell me thatyou're not allowed to ever ask a
young person about what theydidn't do.
(35:52):
Well with Right, you're onlyallowed to focus on the
positives and it's got to stayall positives.
But I think that you knowthat's good and there are people
that need to balance that some.
But at the end of the day youhave to be able to reflect,
because if you're not reflecting, then where was the intention
to begin with?
Right, like, if you're notgoing to set an intention and
(36:12):
then go back and say, did Ireach that?
Then the intention is kind oflike a wish at that point and
it's not really going to add upto much at the end of the day.
Speaker 2 (36:20):
Now, I totally disagree with whoever said that
you shouldn't ask someone whatthey did wrong, because if you
make a mistake, that's anopportunity to learn why and
what happened.
Speaker 1 (36:30):
Right, right.
So you're always going to bethe greatest speaker.
Speaker 2 (36:35):
Yeah, and touching on your, if you're willing and
able to accept it and then be ina place where you're going to
make a lot of mistakes and youhave to trust the process and
hopefully you have some kind ofguidance or a plan or a person
or a team or you know, orsomething around you that can
help keep you on the right path.
(36:56):
So, when, when you said thatpeople get, either they get
distracted by outcome or they'lluse outcome as their kind of
feedback as to whether they didsomething correctly or not, I
think it's misleading, like yousaid, and not that somebody
can't figure out how to hit theball and have it go up in the
(37:19):
air, not that they have to havelessons to do that.
And there's plenty of people,plenty of people that are great
golfers.
Without thinking too much aboutthis, that and the other thing,
I mean gosh.
Last time I was in Scotland andI introduced myself as a golfer,
this was in 2001.
(37:39):
I got a lot of weird books,yeah, and maybe I don't know if
it was because I was a female Ididn't get that.
I got the impression more likeyou're golf, you know, you teach
golf, like that's what, yeah,what we just got the same thing.
Speaker 1 (37:53):
Yeah, I hear you.
They were very bamboozled bywhat I did.
Speaker 2 (37:57):
They're like what's the what you help people play?
We just tell them to go out andthey figure it out Like, yeah,
like our people are not okay,okay, you just go.
You did it.
Speaker 1 (38:07):
You're talking about one of my favorite subjects,
which is golf outside the UnitedStates.
When I was over for the 150thplaying of the open which was
amazing and St Andrew's I hadnever been, so it's my first
time but when I was there, youknow, staying light until like
1030 at night, it just stayslight forever.
And, believe it or not, theplace I was staying just outside
(38:28):
of St Andrew's was a golfcourse right across the street
called St Michael's and I waslike, well, you know, I'm going
to have to do that eventually.
So they didn't have any rentalclubs, it was just a very public
kind of rustic golf club and Iplayed with a ping rapture
hybrid, some kind of six iron.
That wasn't very good, ping Itwo six iron or something like
(38:49):
that, and some wedge that I wishdidn't have the grip ahead
because it would have beenbetter.
And I played with just theseguys that were like factory guys
and like they just got off workand they had a couple beers
with them, you know, and we werejust out for a walk and like
this.
They were just, they were notgood golfers and I don't think
they would take offense to thatbecause they told me that
repeatedly, but at the end ofthe day, trillium, it was
(39:11):
amazing, right, if you watchthem on the tee, hit the ball,
you knew they weren't very good.
But once they got within about150 yards of the pen dude, they
started flighting these shotsdown and hitting these creative
bumping runs and like just, itdidn't look like what we do over
here in terms of golf, becausethe setups are so much softer
(39:32):
and it's a little more targeted.
But like over there, like youdon't have to hit a perfect shot
up in the air and, to yourpoint, like you can figure out
how to kind of slap it aroundand make you know a score.
And man, is it freaking, cooland beautiful.
Because I thought it was justamazing, because, realistically,
those guys showed me morecontrol of the golf ball than I
see most scratch players here inthe United States have, and I
(39:55):
mean that in all sincerity.
Speaker 2 (39:58):
And probably the best part, is they played fast.
Speaker 1 (40:00):
They did.
They, I mean you're, you'rehustling right like they.
We're gonna get as many holesin as we can before it gets dark
, and they didn't care if wewound up on 14 and had to walk
back in the dark.
I mean it was a great time.
Speaker 2 (40:12):
That's a great time and that's just such a good
example of players Just havingfeel and working with what they
have and their experience intheir plane a lot of golf and
they're playing quickly and theyhave a lot of shots that they
can, as opposed to our approachwhich sometimes tends to get a
little clogged up in the let'sbe perfect.
Yeah, so that's like one end ofthe spectrum and then, and then
(40:33):
really Scott Leonard, the other.
Speaker 1 (40:36):
You know, I just think it really is squeezes the
joy out of golf because you knowit's just.
You know the problem is is mostpeople going back to?
You know a little bit of thebenchmark conversation we had
earlier.
Most people's benchmark is like20 minutes of PGA tour coverage
on a Sunday afternoon, right,and it's basically a highlight
reel that they present as a golftournament and it's just really
(40:57):
not how golf works for people.
And I think that when they seethat, and then they see a guy
that quote-unquote doesn't lookall that athletic which is
completely not true, but that'swhat gets said I think that
they're like, oh well, I can dothat.
And then they get out there andthey pretty quickly find out
that it's a different gamealtogether.
Speaker 2 (41:15):
Here's another issue on that point that I think I see
, which I give a lot of To graceto the people that are feeling
this, because I can understandwhat it must feel like.
I'm learning tennis and I'm indevelopment Two years of it, I'm
learning drums oh.
Oh, very cool, yeah, very cool.
So I make him a sick everyone.
(41:36):
But when, when we are, let'ssay, you know you're playing and
you realize, okay, you need,you need a certain aspect, like
you need to be hitting up on it,for example on the driver.
Let's say you're hitting eightdown and you're hitting these
low, they're landing at like 180and then rolling to 250.
(41:57):
That's not, that's gonna be aproblem in some golf courses.
Okay, so Adjusting someone setup or give, giving some of the
different ball position orfeeling like they're doing some
different, the player may feellike that's an astronomical
change.
They may feel like that iscompletely Upending their whole
(42:18):
deal, right, the deal with thefeel.
So From from, from the outsideperspective, as a coach, you say
, well, this is not that big ofa change, but your feet, I
respect that.
Your feel is so different.
So the question then comes Well, are you gonna?
Are you gonna just Got throughit, or are you gonna shy away
(42:39):
and say I can't because it's toodisruptive?
And this is where I come in andsay well, you're gonna have what
you always have, like you're.
You're always gonna have that30% miss where you're never
gonna carry that water on thathole.
You don't change right and talkabout Versatility.
Playing in other courses aroundthe country or world, you're
(43:00):
gonna come into some situationswhere you're gonna want that
shot, where you're gonna want ashot with your wedge that
actually has the ability to goup rather than just bump and run
.
You're gonna put everythingthrough 50 yards out like you're
gonna want some other skills.
Speaker 1 (43:13):
So in other words.
Speaker 2 (43:15):
Someone has to decide how much they they really want
it and then actually commit tothe process and put the time in
and and really be okay thatthere are gonna be a lot of
misses.
It's really uncomfortable butin order to strategize, it's
both pull it together.
You have to be focused ontechnique initially and you have
to commit to it and you can'tgo back to the old way.
Speaker 1 (43:36):
Yeah, no, I completely agree it's.
It's difficult.
You know I get frustratedSometimes because you know I do
work with a lot of just you know10, 15 plus handicaps.
But I also have the the extremehonor to work with some of the
best players in the world, andPeople always make comments that
well, if I had that player, I'dbe a great coach too and I go
(43:59):
really well, what would you tellthem?
And it's they they get quietpretty quick, right, and it's
like the better the player, theharder it is to Really try to
help them.
But what I learned Helpingbetter players has really helped
me help everybody else, becauseat the end of the day, when I
(44:19):
look at a golf shot, it's not astandalone event.
What I'm trying to see is I'mtrying to see the pattern that
led to that shot right.
So like for a lot of, for a lotof good players, let's just say
, right, they hit a lot ofreally great shots on the range.
And then they're like what doyou think of that pro?
Right, and it's like well, thatlooks really nice and I would
be willing to bet out of ahundred shots you probably do
(44:41):
that about 20 of them, which isgreat.
But the issue is is that the 30that you hit that are really,
really bad, out of that pattern,are Unplayable and they make
you get another ball out of yourbag and the magnitude of your
miss out of this pattern isreally what's holding you back
as a player.
So we can keep trying to hit itto two feet every time, but it
would be much simpler to helpyou stop making six, sevens and
(45:03):
eights.
Then it would be to teach youto make more two, threes and
fours.
So it's like just trying tohelp people sometimes like
understand that we're not sayingthat you Can't hit a good shot
this way.
You can.
But when we look at the overallpattern behind that, yeah, you
got away with it there and youmight want to go play the
lottery tonight, but you're notgoing to be able to live and die
(45:24):
with that because it's justgoing to create this huge
magnitude miss that takes youout of play.
Speaker 2 (45:29):
That's yeah, that's right.
This is where I like our ghost,because it gives you, on course
, data of it.
And then you can look at thatand say, well, like the other
day, he's looking at a playerand he's telling me that it that
it's his chip shot to shuriken,but, but, but, and I look at, I
look, I'm noticing his teeshots were awfully short.
And then I started looking atthe dispersion and I thought,
(45:51):
well, geez, here we are workingon your short game, which I call
that defense.
Your offense would be off thetee because you're you're giving
yourself 240 through 220 yardapproach shots.
Speaker 1 (46:04):
Yeah, you know, nobody's gonna live with that.
Speaker 2 (46:06):
No, and so of course, you're gonna have to have a
wedge in your hand, becausethat's a pretty hard club to hit
from the green, especiallywhere you've been hitting your
drives.
You're not in the fairway, sothat game.
So if he had never mentionedwanting or needing to work on
his drive, he always saidthey're fine.
So when someone comes to me andthey say something, I mean I'm
listening to what they're saying, of course, but I don't always
really know, unless I have somedata or something, some evidence
(46:30):
, to kind of base it onabsolutely so.
Speaker 1 (46:34):
You know a question that I'm really interested in.
I've got one more after this,but we're kind of, we've spent
some time together and it's beenwonderful and I just really
appreciate you coming on becauseyou're so insightful.
But Think back Trillium, maybe10, 15 years ago Uh, you as a
coach, right, and I wouldimagine, uh, that that was quite
(46:55):
a bit of a different coach,right.
But I want you to think back 10to 15 years and then kind of
fast forward to today and kindof doing this podcast and maybe
your lessons this morning.
But how would we get here?
How did we go from where youwere 10, 15 years ago to where
you are today?
What would you say is like the,the biggest learning that
(47:15):
you've had over that time andwhat's helped you get to the
person you are today?
Speaker 2 (47:21):
Okay.
So there's always a lot ofstuff that I'm that I'm learning
and getting better at, but Ithe the biggest thing that's
really stand out my mind whenyou're asking this is Is is my
realization and understandingthat just by communicating to
someone what they need to do Isan enough, and when they leave
(47:42):
my lesson T, they may or may not, they may or may not have a
understood what, what justhappened, or be able to then
carry on with what we were doingby themselves, and so that
really was the Impetus for me togo back to school to help
people to really figure out.
(48:02):
Are that what are?
The silver bowl.
Speaker 1 (48:03):
It's such a badass thing, by the way, like that's
so badass, brilliant, like thatreally is cool, like I really do
think that that is.
That's the one thing man liketo.
I mean, I had, to a way, lesserdegree.
I did not go back to school Godhelp me but like to to be able
to stop yourself in your tracksand go, hey, I got to get better
at this thing.
And then to commit to gettingbetter and then showing up and
(48:26):
like, looking people in the Faceand going like, hey, I got
something better, now let's trythis.
Speaker 2 (48:31):
I'm sure enough that is bad.
I don't care what anybody saysI'm showing up.
Yeah, I gotta show up, michael.
Speaker 1 (48:37):
You do bad, you kill that, so.
So I love the fact that you'realways learning, like I mean, I
think that every coach is gonnasay that right, and then for you
to take such a serious,intentional path and Wanting to
understand you know one of themechanisms so much better, I
mean, I think that's reallyreally cool.
So the big question, that'salways the hard one, right, and
(49:01):
I know that there is an answer,because you're a professional
coach and obviously resultsmatter and I totally understand
that.
But that's not allowed to beyour answer to this question.
You can't just say results,even though I know that they do
matter, but how do you measuresuccess with your client?
Speaker 2 (49:20):
It's funny.
You should ask that questionbecause on my way to work today
I was thinking I what?
I was thinking of the number ofpeople that I've taught in my
whole stretch of teaching thathave made real meaningful
strides in, in, in, in theirpractice, and I was kind of
(49:43):
relating it to my own strugglewith tennis.
Like, wow, that's really hardto do.
I See the people around me thatdidn't decide to bite the
bullet and make the change likea golf or tennis, and you see
what that looks like.
And then you see the peoplethat did bite the bullet.
So for me, the and what?
(50:04):
When I say bite the bullet, Imean Like doing the drills so
that you don't, you don'tcontinue to go steep and over
the top, like Whatever it is,but actually sitting there and
just putting the repetitions onand and seeing some real,
miserable, miserable outcomesbut then finally letting that,
(50:27):
like letting it all happen andyou see the lights.
I think it's not necessarilyoutcome, as much as it is
someone's willingness to stay inthe Uncomfortable realm for a
terrible time it's just awful,like it's just so bad.
Speaker 1 (50:44):
Like when I'm sitting on my little stool and my
little drum teacher, like I cantell, like he's actually
thinking about maybe throwing asymbol at my head, like in whip
flash or something like that.
Like when it's going like, and Ijust I look at him, I go, dude,
I'm sorry, I'm really like, Ijust apologize, I'm trying
really hard, I'm just not good,it's so.
But it's so nice to have thathumility because it's so easy to
(51:08):
then be able to come back toyou know, coaching others, and
be able to show some empathy andsome sympathy and like, just
like, dude, I get it, it's onthe on the tennis court.
Speaker 2 (51:18):
I have to say to myself quite often, like I have
really bad sailor mouth when I'mplaying and I usually don't
swear much, that f word comesout all the time.
So I realized you know, firstof all I don't deserve to be mad
about making this any, but it'sright and I'm not mad at
anybody else.
But I realized I can't be, Ican't be fun for anyone else to
(51:40):
see me, even my coach to see.
So I just stopped doing it, soI just stopped judging and it's
more like the, the intensity.
My intensity level is reallyhigh when I'm practicing and
playing.
It's really high and it'sreally on and and my like.
My hope is that I pull it offand most of the time I don't.
(52:01):
But my thoughts are right.
So, like I'm, I just got a, Ijust got to go back and like and
I'm inspired.
I'm really inspired because I'mthinking.
This is what I was thinking thismorning.
I was thinking my students Arebetter at this than I am.
Like I've got some reallyincredible Experiences.
Theme people go through thatand not have a high expectation.
(52:24):
Like I'm really athletic, so myexpectations are high.
That's a hard student to havewhen someone comes from another
Highly skilled right, they'rehighly skilled in another sport
and they come over to golf andthey expect they should get it
quickly.
Speaker 1 (52:38):
And it's just not a golfer is always the most
successful business person.
Always, like, always, always,always, like I Feel so bad for
people that are so accomplishedin other areas in their life and
like it's kind of I don't wantto say it's all going right for
them, but obviously it's goingwell, and then they get to a
golf course, man, and likeeverything goes well, and then
they get to that one beautifulplace on the planet and like it
(53:00):
just doesn't work for them and,man, it just drives them Monkers
.
It is crazy.
They are the heart.
You're absolutely right.
But I think it's also, you knowour job really with that person
Really turns into thatexpectation and goal setting
right and like really helpingthem.
You know, maybe through yourtennis stories or my drumming
stories or whatever they may be,but you know, kind of Showing
(53:24):
them that like hey, man, likebuckle up, because this is hard,
there's a reason why you knowthere's not that many people who
are really all that good at itand like you better learn to
enjoy the scenery, because ifyou're gonna Be miserable, then
go be miserable somewhere else,because this is never gonna work
for you right, or find theright person to help you figure
out where where the breakdown isand then work on it.
(53:46):
Absolutely so, man, that was fun.
I know that we are out of time.
Unfortunately, I could and Iwill.
I'll end up texting Trilliumabout 15 minutes after we end
the zoom call and we'll keep theconversation going, but it's
been great having Trillium on.
I really do appreciate it.
I got a text message while Iwas doing this from the, the
double D, and he is not feelingwell, so we wish him a speedy
(54:10):
recovery.
We hope he's doing well and hewill be back during the next
episode.
So please do me a favor makesure to go and find Trillium
Rose on Instagram.
She does an amazing job.
Everything she does is veryprofessional and very well done,
and if you are in the Northeastarea and looking for a great
coach, that can definitely helpyou put together a plan to see
(54:31):
your Best results.
I can't recommend Trilliumenough.
So, trillium, do you haveanything you'd like to say?
To send this off?
Speaker 2 (54:38):
Oh, Michael, thanks so much.
I I just I like to think peopleget better.
So if you, if there's a will,there's a way.
Speaker 1 (54:47):
I love it.
That's great.
So thank you again to Trillium,thank you to everybody for
letting us borrow her for just alittle while, and that's it for
us.
So make sure that you go aheadand download this podcast and
subscribe, and then you also canfind the full videos on our
YouTube page at making the turn.
Thanks so much.
Until next time, keep grinding.
Hello and welcome to a new episode of Making the Turn
with Double D and the Dooch and, unfortunately, a small
programming note.
Double D is not feeling verywell this episode and is sitting
this one out, but luckily we'vegot such a tremendous guest
that I think we're going to beokay and we're going to go ahead
and soldier on.
So, in Double D's good spiritof the game, I would be more
(00:27):
than happy to introduce ourguest, who is none other than
Trillium Rose, who is just anamazing coach in the northeast
here in the United States and,in addition to be a director
instruction at the WoodmontCountry Club, she has also taken
a very unique journey into howshe chooses to coach her clients
and I think it's a really coolstory.
(00:48):
And Trillium has went back toschool and gotten a master's at
the Columbia University, at theTeachers College, getting that
in motor learning, and it isjust amazing what she brings to
the table in terms of helpingpeople understand how to change
a pattern and how to learn.
(01:09):
So we're very, very happy tohave Trillium on.
She's not only a great friendof mine and a great inspiration
and somebody I look up to andtry to be more alike, but she's
also a member of the Golf Digesttop 50 instructors in the
United States, as well as beinga member of the golfcom top 100
teachers.
So Trillium is one smart cookieand we're super happy to have
(01:31):
her.
So, without further ado, helloTrillium.
How are you today?
Speaker 2 (01:35):
Hi Michael, good to see you.
That intro makes me a littlenervous, uncomfortable.
Speaker 1 (01:40):
Why We'll just have a conversation.
It is, and that's the thing thatI like is that, trillium, it
was easy to find you becauseI've been a great admirer of
yours online and I think thatthe content you put out is very
thoughtful.
And it's always kind of easy tofind you, because if it's an
event where there's peoplelearning, there's normally a
(02:03):
group, and Trillium tends tofind herself towards the middle,
and not only that, but shealways looks great in her Jay
Lindberg clothing, so she alwaysstands out a little bit as well
, so that makes it even slightlyeasier to find you.
But you know, I think it'sinteresting that we always cross
paths at these learning events,and that's one thing that I
really want our listeners tounderstand is how committed you
are to learning about the gameof golf and how people learn and
(02:26):
how to kind of translate thosetwo.
Speaker 2 (02:29):
Isn't that the truth?
So that's a really nicestarting off point, because in
our industry, I think it'ssimilar to, say, fitness or
nutrition, where it's easy totake, I think, the clear cut
path.
Or maybe to say, all right,this is what I have always done,
or this is what I've alwayslearned, let's just do it that
(02:51):
way, yeah, right, or this iswhat, this is what someone I
really trust said I'm going todo exactly that.
Now, not to say you shouldn'ttrust somebody, and but I think
it's important to explore otherapproaches, other other
perspectives, and question andquestion everything, and not in
(03:13):
a negative way, but just in aokay.
Well, someone said that on thegolf channel.
Why did they?
Why what's really actuallygoing on?
Speaker 1 (03:23):
So I think it's so good.
Kevin Kirk, I know somebodythat you you like as well, but
Kevin Kirk always uses the wordkaizen, right?
And this, always this quest ofcontinuous learning and
understanding and I think that'swhat you're talking about is
just that you have a curiosity,right, and it's not.
I think some people in our kindof wavelength of thinking
(03:50):
sometimes we come off as beingkind of combative or maybe even
kind of constantly justquestioning things to question
them, when in reality we justhave this yearning to really try
to figure out the whole subjectinstead of just a very small
piece of it.
Speaker 2 (04:05):
That's, that's so right, and what's wonderful is
that there are people that haveexcelled in certain avenues.
So if I want to really learnabout, you know, track men,
numbers, I mean early on Jameslights had had been doing so
much and did a really good jobexplaining D plane before I was
really thinking about the Dplane, your swing direction,
(04:27):
angle, attack facing off.
So that's neat.
You know, parker McLaughlinsort of branding himself as
short game chef, right, thereare what about John John doing
the aim point?
And and Mark Swaney, mike, mikeSwaney, on aim point, I mean
there's just so many differentlevels that we can, we can sit
(04:48):
on level meaning maybe, maybeit's better like angle.
We're looking at this throughbiomechanics or through
performance, with nutrition even.
Or we're looking at the.
You know Lynn and Pia do such agreat job on their mindfulness
and like being aware of yourstate, your emotional state, and
(05:10):
what does that do to your game,as opposed to just thinking
about the technical, becausethere are so many different
dimensions to the humanexperience, not just I know what
I need to do.
Why can't I do it?
Speaker 1 (05:25):
Absolutely.
I mean that, that I mean you'respeaking to just kind of the
growth of the game.
I think right, and one of thethings that I was talking to
with Ryan Holly about the otherday on a different podcast was
how, you know, there's reallythis inflection point in the
game right now and you knowthere used to only be a handful
(05:47):
of people who knew about thesecertain subjects and they were
like really world class, but nowwe're starting to see the next
wave, right, the next wave ofinstructor who grew up and
didn't have to figure this outand came out of the gate with an
understanding of deep playingbecause of the work of James
lights.
You know there's and I honestlyam one of those right, I've
kind of been able to come in atthis great point and it's like
(06:08):
you're absolutely right, there'sso many competencies that go
into being a great competitivegolfer or even being somebody
that shoots 80 for the firsttime versus somebody currently
shooting 100.
You know there's a lot ofdifferent ways that you can
approach this and for somepeople maybe the low hanging
fruit is just general fitness.
You know there's also peoplethat I know who are great
(06:29):
players, like club champions,and they can't figure out why,
or they can't draw thecorrelation, why, you know, they
go on their buddies trip andthey shoot like 10 strokes
higher across the weekend andit's like, well, I don't know
how do you normally have thatmany bourbon and coax every
night Like, is the there's?
There's a trade off there, right?
So I mean, when you look at thehighest of levels, like what
(06:49):
we're seeing in the Ryder Cupand the Solheim Cup, you know a
lot of the players you seewearing a loop, and I promise
you they're not just wearing itbecause they get paid.
I promise you that there'ssomebody on their team that
looks at that.
And I think that that's reallywhere golf has changed.
Is there's room now for more?
In my opinion, with the currenttour and the way people work,
(07:11):
the teams are getting bigger,because I think people are
willing to be open to new ideasmore frequently now.
So you coming from motorlearning and me coming from,
let's say, the force plate side,right, we can be on the same
team and we can still be talkingabout a lot of the same end
goals, but we're trying to comeat it from various levels to see
which one is going to help usget there the quickest.
Speaker 2 (07:34):
That's right and I think we should.
We should recognize Dave, DavePhillips and Greg Rose for what
they did with TPI.
I think they took a really areally great kind of holistic
approach from the beginning.
They said, Listen, everyone'stalking about the club and the
ball and the swing, but whatabout the human body and what
(07:57):
about the testing?
The human body and where we areon that, let's explore it.
And they just they kind of tookthat next level in terms of
having a team checking.
I mean, they're looking atblood work, you know, they're
looking at all kinds of things3D.
So I really appreciate,appreciate how many ways there
are to to kind of measureourselves and to and to kind of
(08:22):
thoughtfully put a comprehensiveplan together.
Speaker 1 (08:26):
I don't know that this is widely known and I think
I'm okay talking about it, butI think it might be fun because
I know that you know a lot ofthe same people I do and
obviously I love the guys at TPI.
I think Greg is awesome andDave is awesome and I was
fortunate this past year to gustto walk the last 18 holes on
Sunday with Dave, which wasreally really cool to watch him
(08:49):
there with John obviouslygetting it done.
So that was just mega, megacool.
So I obviously appreciate those.
But do you know, kind of, whatthe genesis for TPI was?
Speaker 2 (09:02):
My understanding is the genesis was the body itself.
I mean exactly the issue or theconcept.
Like the concept, was peoplegetting hurt and you're asking
someone to do something thattheir body can't do or shouldn't
do, or if we're asking someoneto put a ton of torque and
(09:23):
speeds in certain joints, can wemake sure that they have the
range of motion and thestability and the mobility to do
that before we ask them to doit?
Speaker 1 (09:30):
For sure.
So the first guys that reallykind of looked at this were the
Australians.
So I don't know if you've seenit on Netflix yet, but you can
go and watch the America's Cupand it's about the 1983
America's Cup when literallyAustralia was the first team to
ever beat the New York YachtClub.
(09:52):
In 132 years.
They'd been having this thingin the New York Yacht Club at
one every year and Australiafinally got serious and wanted
to knock them off their peg.
And this was their opportunity.
This was their sport and theypoured all these resources into
it right, and they really gotall these really bright people
together that were reallymavericks and really just kind
(10:13):
of outside the box people andthey said, hey, if you wanted to
make the best yachtsman in theworld, what would you look for?
And they put together all thesedifferent groups and asked all
these amazing questions and atthe end of the day, what
Australia kind of figured outwas, if we can get good at sport
, we can get people to recognizeour little island out here.
That's not really got a wholelot of tourism going on and it's
(10:35):
very similar to what's kind ofgoing on now with the whole
concept of sports washing andhow countries are trying to use
sports to better their image andworld standings.
But it's really cool how therewere people who were listening
to the Australians and Greg andDave were definitely two of
those people right, and theybrought us something.
That I think is remarkablebecause, you know, I think the
(10:55):
concepts of motor learning arevastly difficult.
So I actually have a master'slevel biomechist on my payroll
and before you came on, I wastalking to Will about this and
he's like man, motor learning ishard and I was like really.
And he's like, yeah, reallyhard.
And I was like that'ssurprising.
He's like, yeah, he goes, itwas so hard he goes.
I actually started in motorlearning and chose biomechanics
(11:17):
because I thought it was easier.
So, like the motor learningstuff is really really hard and
I think it's so difficult for usas modern coaches to try to
wear the hat of everybodybecause, quite frankly, I don't
have the time or possibly evenhave the ability to learn as
much about motor learning as youalready know.
So it would make sense to bringyou into the team and let you
(11:38):
help us in that way, because nowwe're just getting to, you know
, solving problems, instead ofhaving to feel like I'm
reinventing the wheel.
So I applaud you and I thinkthere's definitely a lot of
camaraderie coming forth in thecoaching sphere.
Speaker 2 (11:52):
I totally agree with that.
I mean, it's like if you'retrying to fix a airplane, you
need specialists to kind ofweigh in on.
You need to be an electrician,you need the plumber, you need
the aerospace engineer who'sgoing to look at whatever else.
So yeah, I'm a huge fan ofcollaborating and kind of
pulling together.
And the other when you weretalking about the Australians, I
(12:14):
was thinking about the 74, Ibelieve, olympics.
When the Australians came backwith not one single medal and
the government said this isreally embarrassing.
They formed the AustralianInstitute of Sport, which then,
was kind of dovetailing of whatyou're talking about and
incubating really good athletes,but also putting together some
(12:37):
serious thought leadership whichwas backed by the government.
So there was a reallycollective effort to cultivate,
develop and really do it in asmart way.
And of course, now we knowwhere the Australians are
they're a leader in sport andathletic development.
Speaker 1 (12:56):
Yeah, it's unreal.
It's just so cool because Ithink that for so long.
I hate to say this, but youlook at some of our greats, some
of the best players in the game, all played with injuries, all
battled this and that throughouttheir entire careers and I
think a lot of that could beattributed to doing it the way
it had always been done.
(13:16):
There wasn't really a lot ofuniqueness.
When you look back at thehistory of golf instruction and
golf teaching, you knoweverybody kind of wanted to see
more or less the same things,but we also had a completely
different task than we do today.
We were very limited with theballada golf ball, with the fact
that it just wanted to spinlike crazy and it really limited
the athletic ability in termsof speed that you could apply to
(13:39):
the ball because of the spinrate.
So now that we're seeing that wehave a golf ball that suits an
athlete better in terms of itdoesn't want to spin, so you can
hit this thing really reallyhard and it doesn't go straight
in the air, you know it's reallydifficult to go to a tour event
and not find one of the groupshave at least one participant
with their left wrist taped up,and my firm belief in that is
(13:59):
because the modeling that we'reusing is very antiquated in a
lot of ways and I think thatwe're going to continue to find
that the pure.
You know, making a playerbetter through technique alone
approach is an approach and ithas worked in the past, but I
think that at a certain pointthese other developmental
factors have to be kind ofaddressed if you're trying to
(14:22):
holistically make the person abetter player, and I think that
that's why having somebody therewho's a motor learning expert
really helps the team.
Speaker 2 (14:33):
I know people picked up what you just said because
that was really insightful, andI'm thinking of all these
different examples of playersfrom all walks of life that are
that are trying to trying to getbetter and trying to level up
what they have, and I look atthis as well.
(14:54):
Okay, you are a human in frontof me with what you have right
now, right today.
What can you do today with that?
Now we're just going to rollour sleeves up and get into the
motor learning part, becausethis is my lane.
The mileage I call mileage, orthe experience, the number of
repetitions that that any givenperson has on a particular
(15:17):
movement plays, as such, a heavyrole in in how we're going to
move forward.
For example, someone that'splayed for 30 years and they
have a particular backswing,that might look and do something
that they've done for a longtime.
That's going to be a little bitharder to adjust or maybe to
(15:39):
find some field.
And someone that's starting forthe first week they're they're
a year into the game.
It's much more malleable thansomeone that's that's created
some patterns that are now.
That being said, old habits diehard, so why would I want to
change something if it's so, ifit's so reliable, like usually,
consistency is somethingeverybody wants in golf, so it
(16:01):
could be, it could it could.
It could be a movement thatsomeone may not like the look of
, but if it's consistent, wehave to.
We have to be really good andsure that we're going to want to
mess with that, because it'sgoing to be hard pressed to
change.
Speaker 1 (16:15):
And I throw something in there right there, because I
like what you just said and notfrom a from a technical
perspective in terms of liketrying to stay more in my lane
Right I would say that you'reabsolutely right because for the
most part, if it's a, let's say, 10 plus handicap that comes in
for a golf lesson, generally inthe first sentence, normally
(16:38):
the first three words I hearconsistency.
That's what they want, they gotto have it and like they're
just not going to be satisfiedwithout it, right, and at the
end of the day, generallyspeaking, before they get the
chance to tell me that I'vealready had them hit some warm
up shots and I have it there ontrack man or foresight or
whatever launch monitor I'musing at the time.
(16:59):
And the funny thing is is whenyou look at the standard
deviation of, let's say, theirclub path, it tends to be very
consistent onto itself, right,so the standard very, very small
.
And then when you startbreaking it down and start
really looking at the individualmetrics that make up their golf
swing, to your point, they maynot like the look of it.
(17:20):
However, it is very consistentonto itself.
So the interesting thing ishelping them understand that
they are very, very consistentand with this pattern, this is
what it's going to produce,right, and we're also able to
help them understand as wellthat.
You know, I think where wheretechnology can be helpful is to
(17:42):
your earlier point, which isthis person doesn't have the
same feel and the same amount ofreps as a scratch handicap
player.
I can tell a scratch handicapplayer to add duck their left
arm, left across their body, andthey might understand that, but
somebody who's like you know,basically, is this the heel or
the toe?
They're not going to quiteunderstand that, right?
So having the technology thereto kind of show them and modeled
(18:06):
for them, kind of what we'relooking for, man, it makes just
a simpler message for thatperson to take in, versus having
to rely on something they maynot have experience with.
Speaker 2 (18:16):
That's?
Yeah, that's right, I'm thinkso.
Let's say, let's go back tothis 10 handicapped, for example
.
So I've got a guy it was mylast lesson have an hour ago so
he's, he's, he comes in, he'sthey're missing, right?
Let's just see what's going on.
Take a look at shots watchingthe club path and I'm watching
(18:38):
the face and he's swingdirection and club path are
definitely left in the middle.
Single digits three, four, five, six sometimes an eight
negative.
So I'm looking at that, his, hiswrist at the top and he's got
in full extension over the clubstraight down.
So that in itself doesn'tbother me.
(18:59):
But I certainly don't see it alot on the high level players.
Because why?
Because then they've got to getit back into flexion coming
down.
So it's a lot of moving parts.
Guy doesn't even play that muchgolf or practice that much.
So I'm weighing that in too andhe's all feel tennis player
technique is not on his brain.
(19:20):
But if he can think ball flight, change direction, he can
usually kind of find somethingin his athletic kind of system
to do it.
So I did mention the okay, well,you're steep with an open face.
I you know the easiest thingwould be to just adjust where
(19:41):
that club is at the top.
It's a backswing thought.
It's at the top.
You know you don't have to doit through the swing.
That did not land whatsoever.
Not one little moment of thatwas gonna work.
Zero.
No, I figured that out fast,it's not a problem.
So I put some clubs down on theground in the direction of the
(20:03):
target and ball was in themiddle.
So probably three or four feetof grass in between the clubs or
a lemur, so you can seevisually, in a peripheral vision
, where that target line is.
So then I said, okay, I wantyou to imagine that you're gonna
swing kind of at a diagonal tothis.
You're gonna come in from herein the inside.
That resonated Right, Not how todo it, but just this is what
(20:26):
you wanna imagine.
So for him that was reallyeffective.
That was all he really neededto kind of manage that movement.
Speaker 1 (20:34):
You're spot on.
But I don't think that that'snecessarily true of just a 10
handicap either, right?
I mean, there's really goodplayers and they're terrified of
a golf lesson.
You know like they areabsolutely terrified to take a
golf lesson because and I'm nottrying to be mean to anybody but
they just they haven't foundhelp when they've went looking
for it.
Right, because maybe the coachwasn't as prepared or maybe had
(20:55):
just a very singular viewpointthat this player had already
heard.
Whatever the case may be, butthere are certainly a lot of
high level athletes that just dothings, whether they know about
them or not.
Dustin Johnson's always kind ofthe joke, right, like he
obviously doesn't understandvertical force, yet the guy
could dunk wearing Italianloafers, so he obviously knows
(21:16):
how to use them.
He might not be able to describethem to you, but I think that
there's beauty in that, and weas the coaches have to excuse me
have to sometimes make thosejudgment calls into how we want
to either lean into a client andreally try to help them learn a
new concept, because we thinkthat this is the only or the
(21:37):
best path forward, and thenthere's times where you have to
lean out a little bit, like youwere saying ago okay, well, that
approach was a mess and now wehave to find a way to
communicate with them, kind ofon the fly.
And I think that's beautifulbecause in my opinion you know
definitely motor learning stuffthere, but also the art of
coaching is another way.
We could say that right.
And I think that you know, if Ithink of motor learning, what I
(22:00):
tend to think of is, you know,there's a lot of coaches who
have always kind of done it oneway, but I think that the beauty
in motor learning isunderstanding like there are
different paths for everybodyand, yes, you can have success
with all of them, but this iskind of a measured approach to
how you want to move forwardwith somebody.
Speaker 2 (22:19):
Yeah, yeah, and I hear I mean you're a colleague
who said, well, motor learningis harder, it's just really wide
.
I mean I love numbers and mathis so much more simple than
English.
I think that's the comparisonhe's kind of talking about.
Like motor learning is reallythe nexus of psychology and
neuroscience.
(22:40):
So you're in neurophysiology,so like the brain functioning
and sending signals from yourprefrontal cortex three or CNS
down into the muscle spindlesthrough to the motor neurons,
like there's a lot in that chainreaction that has to happen
(23:01):
correctly but it uses.
So much of this discussion isabout how our brains process
things and what they do and howthey create networks and how
those networks change and howthat changes over development in
a skill development and generallifespan development, cause
there's also a lot of differentthings you'd want to factor in
depending on how old that personis.
(23:22):
So there's just a lot ofvariability in that and the act
of a synapse is a chemistry.
It's a chemistry reaction wherean uneven balance of potassium
and sodium between us wall ofthe cell creates this flash of
(23:46):
electricity which then goes downthrough the neuron to neuron,
like okay, but then what doesthat output look like?
I can't really measure all thatstuff, whereas what we love so
much about biomechanics andtechnical discussions is it's so
measurable.
Speaker 1 (24:07):
For sure.
Speaker 2 (24:09):
And there's something really clean and neat and
thorough and secure about that.
And I am with you 100% onlooking at technique, because
you can be sure of it.
When someone says how can I,how can I can do it with a
practice swing, but I can't doit with a ball.
(24:29):
Now we're into motor learning,like okay, now it gets really
hard.
Speaker 1 (24:34):
Yeah, I couldn't agree more.
I mean, I think that most ofthe literature that you read
that isn't about technicalswings is probably about
transference of skill right andlike I think honestly that it
gets mislabeled so much becauseI don't think that I work with a
lot of high end players, kidsand young adults that win a lot
(24:55):
of golf tournaments and none ofthem have psychological issues,
none of them are what I wouldcall mentally damaged or
anything like that.
Yet when I meet parents andthey want me to take on a young
person, they tell me about allthis trauma that this poor kid
has went through.
And I'm like there've been agolf course, what's going on at
(25:16):
the?
I've been to a lot of golfcourses, like they're pretty
chill environments, like what'sgoing on here, and it's just so
interesting because I think thatwe mislabel as being weak
minded or not being a finisheror all those things.
But to your point, I reallydon't think it's so much of that
as it is the ability totransfer the skill that those
(25:37):
same parents see on the practicetee to the tournament tee right
.
And I think that you're rightthere.
I think that there is somedeeper understanding in your
clients and understanding like,hey, here's the thing, the skill
that we got to make better.
But, most importantly, I thinkwhere you can really help is
this is how we're going topractice this skill, to transfer
(25:59):
it and to play to where you cantrust it and I applaud you,
because that's really important.
Speaker 2 (26:04):
That's so right, that's right and I'll just I'll
put a little extra on that.
So some comes in, says I can't.
I can do it here if I can't doit there.
My first question, and aoutward question I'm also
thinking this is well, can youreally do it on the range Right,
like that's number one?
Speaker 1 (26:23):
How many people do you think actually okay, so I'm
not gonna.
I mean, obviously I introducedyou and told everybody where you
work, but you work at a privateclub and you work with mostly,
I would imagine, members of thatclub, right?
So I would imagine that it's avery good reflection of the
people that are probablylistening to this podcast.
(26:44):
So, with that being said, howmany of the people that you're
working with right now and playgolf at that club do you think
actually understand, like from abenchmark perspective, what is
good for them?
Speaker 2 (27:00):
Well, I'd like to think my students have a really
good understanding.
Speaker 1 (27:05):
It's tough, though right, because, like Ego's so
tied in.
Speaker 2 (27:09):
Yes, and it's misleading and there is great
research that's indicated thatto be a common thing.
So Bob Bjork had done somegreat work on using the
psychology department at UCLA,some great work on perception of
practice versus effectivenessof practice, specifically
(27:35):
blocked and random.
So blocked being I'm going tohit the same shot to the same
spot and then random, I'm goingto vary my targets and my
distances and I'm going to domore what I would do on a golf
course.
So I have a lot to say.
I'm blocked and blocked andrandom and kind of.
(27:56):
We've touched just a moment onexternal versus internal cues,
and that's another one.
So both of these kind of versesI said verses, but, but I
actually think there's so muchmore nuanced and and if you
treat them in a nuanced way, youjust have so much more success
rather than do I do this or that.
(28:17):
Well, the answer is it depends,depends, yeah.
Speaker 1 (28:21):
I think that that's what we're finding through
societal fabric right now.
Right Is like the world isn'tas black and white as we once
thought it was.
You know, there's a there's alot of shades of gray in between
and I think you're exactlyright.
You know, I would say I'vereally tried hard, on a personal
note, to find more joy in thegame of golf this year.
There's been a long periodwhere I haven't enjoyed it very
(28:43):
much, not because I haven'tplayed well and shot good
numbers, just because I haven'tfound very much joy with it.
So I've been pairing less than13 golf clubs in the bag and
I've been playing golf courses,you know, that are more fun and
user friendly and shorter, andI've really been having fun.
But I think to your point andwhat I'm trying to say is that
(29:06):
for such a long time I've beenso technical when I've tried to
be almost like a surgeon when Iapproach golf, because that's
kind of how I tend to think ofgolf, with my role and what I do
.
However, when I go into playermode, you know I it's really
hard to perform at a high leveland to have all those internal
things going through your headbecause we need to be, you know,
(29:29):
creative and able to adapt andable to process large amounts of
stimuli on the golf course, andwhen you're trying to be all up
tight, it just doesn't leave alot of room for that.
So I think that there's a timeand a place to where my
technical precision I can leanthat end of that part of me.
But there's also times, man,where you're hitting one out of
(29:49):
you know foot high, rough andthe ball's chest high and like
throw the math out.
You got to figure out a way toget this thing kind of back into
play.
So I love what you're sayingthere, because I don't think
that very many people look at itthat way.
I think that they try to bethis or that, red or blue,
whatever the case may be.
Speaker 2 (30:07):
This is a lot like music and other sports too.
Like, let's say, you've got acouple measures and you play the
violin and it's a technicalmaneuver with your fingers and
the string and the sound and youkeep getting caught up on it.
Well, okay, that would be agood idea to go back to those
(30:27):
and really feel in your fingershow that's supposed to feel, get
that right, get that right overand over block practice.
Feel it, feel it, get it right,get it right.
But also be thoughtful whileyou're doing that initial
practice to really work throughwhat that progression has to do.
What does that have to feellike?
(30:48):
Same thing with delivering theclub.
I mean, I'm so into the wristbeing the wrist angles and wrist
and how you move the club withyour wrists through impact.
I'm kind of a stickler throughthat because this A, you can get
injured, but B, if you'retrying to deliver a club solidly
and efficiently, you do need tohave certain parameters.
(31:08):
You just do.
There's just physics involved.
So how we go about that is oneway.
So then you get your repetition, you get your feeling on that,
you can kind of make it flow.
Then let's add that to thelarger scope.
Let's add the rest of the pieceso you can kind of blend it in.
(31:30):
So you're going to play it,play it, play it.
Does it then fall into place?
But you don't want to be in aspot where, okay, I'm coming to
the now, I need to lift myfinger here, I need to press
harder there.
This is reminding me of golf.
Thinking too much Overthinkingisn't productive.
Overthinking if you've alreadydone your work, which you have
(31:51):
in golf, it's not going to be agreat addition to your brain.
When you're kind of going backto that online processing where
you're either overcontrolling oroveranalyzing, it's one thing
to do it afterwards, after youhit the shot and you're like
okay, I know what I did, I wantto kind of work through, but you
do that to get the feel back.
(32:13):
The feel is what we need whenwe're playing.
Speaker 1 (32:16):
What I hear you saying too is and I think
there's some real beauty in thisis that I think it's really
important that we approach ourpractice with some intention,
and I think that that reallydoesn't happen very much.
And what I mean by that is likeintentional practice, right,
like okay, I've done my warm-upand I notice that my club path
(32:40):
is, let's say, a little morerightward than we would like to
see it.
Okay and okay, cool.
So my intention is that I'mgoing to hit the next five shots
and after those five shots Iwant to see that that club path,
on average, has shifted more tothe left.
But I don't think that wereally see that right.
I think we see people that getlost in the result, and as long
(33:03):
as the ball winds up close tothe target, the ends tend to
justify the means and they kindof fall for that trick time and
time again and they think thatthey found the secret that
they've always been missingevery time they go to the
driving range and then, just asquickly as they get to that
first tee, they realize theydidn't really learn anything in
that practice and they're justas lost as they've always been.
So you know.
Speaker 2 (33:24):
I think you hit the nail on the head with the word
intention.
It's probably where we shouldhave started, because that is,
you can't go anywhere with with,with with change.
You can't make any changes ifyou aren't clear on what your
intention is.
Speaker 1 (33:44):
I agree with you.
I have a question.
I want to get this end, becauseI think this is where you
really get to shine a little bit.
I'm going to ask you to put onyour motor learning I hate to
use the word expert, but I'mgoing to go ahead and cheat a
little bit because I can't thinkof a better one.
I'm going to go ahead and sayyou know, you're going to be a
(34:06):
motor learning expert, hat on.
And, from the motor learningperspective of things, what are
you looking at right now andwhat do you think is going to be
really important in terms ofmotor learning in the next three
to five years?
Speaker 2 (34:24):
I am looking in my own time, outside of my lessons.
I'm looking at the group ofpeople that have already
committed to wanting to change.
They know they want to change,they're committed to it, but
they need to find out what to doand how to really be there.
(34:45):
So not the people that arestruggling to get motivated to
practice or they don't likepractice.
I'm talking to the people thatare like boom, I got to practice
.
All right, now what do I do?
Speaker 1 (34:55):
Yeah, you're high achievers.
Speaker 2 (34:57):
The high achievers are, you know, the operators,
the people that actually willget there, and I'm looking at
this not entirely through a golflens, but through a motor
learning lens, and this appliesto just behavior in life as well
.
So that's where I'm spending alot of time, and the second step
(35:22):
after that is reallyunderstanding where you are with
something and where you want tobe with something.
Speaker 1 (35:31):
Right, and I think that's beautiful too, because I
get frustrated because there's alot of people that mean well in
the coaching space and theyconstantly tell me that you're
not allowed Sorry, our phonesare ringing there.
They constantly tell me thatyou're not allowed to ever ask a
young person about what theydidn't do.
(35:52):
Well with Right, you're onlyallowed to focus on the
positives and it's got to stayall positives.
But I think that you knowthat's good and there are people
that need to balance that some.
But at the end of the day youhave to be able to reflect,
because if you're not reflecting, then where was the intention
to begin with?
Right, like, if you're notgoing to set an intention and
(36:12):
then go back and say, did Ireach that?
Then the intention is kind oflike a wish at that point and
it's not really going to add upto much at the end of the day.
Speaker 2 (36:20):
Now, I totally disagree with whoever said that
you shouldn't ask someone whatthey did wrong, because if you
make a mistake, that's anopportunity to learn why and
what happened.
Speaker 1 (36:30):
Right, right.
So you're always going to bethe greatest speaker.
Speaker 2 (36:35):
Yeah, and touching on your, if you're willing and
able to accept it and then be ina place where you're going to
make a lot of mistakes and youhave to trust the process and
hopefully you have some kind ofguidance or a plan or a person
or a team or you know, orsomething around you that can
help keep you on the right path.
(36:56):
So, when, when you said thatpeople get, either they get
distracted by outcome or they'lluse outcome as their kind of
feedback as to whether they didsomething correctly or not, I
think it's misleading, like yousaid, and not that somebody
can't figure out how to hit theball and have it go up in the
(37:19):
air, not that they have to havelessons to do that.
And there's plenty of people,plenty of people that are great
golfers.
Without thinking too much aboutthis, that and the other thing,
I mean gosh.
Last time I was in Scotland andI introduced myself as a golfer,
this was in 2001.
(37:39):
I got a lot of weird books,yeah, and maybe I don't know if
it was because I was a female Ididn't get that.
I got the impression more likeyou're golf, you know, you teach
golf, like that's what, yeah,what we just got the same thing.
Speaker 1 (37:53):
Yeah, I hear you.
They were very bamboozled bywhat I did.
Speaker 2 (37:57):
They're like what's the what you help people play?
We just tell them to go out andthey figure it out Like, yeah,
like our people are not okay,okay, you just go.
You did it.
Speaker 1 (38:07):
You're talking about one of my favorite subjects,
which is golf outside the UnitedStates.
When I was over for the 150thplaying of the open which was
amazing and St Andrew's I hadnever been, so it's my first
time but when I was there, youknow, staying light until like
1030 at night, it just stayslight forever.
And, believe it or not, theplace I was staying just outside
(38:28):
of St Andrew's was a golfcourse right across the street
called St Michael's and I waslike, well, you know, I'm going
to have to do that eventually.
So they didn't have any rentalclubs, it was just a very public
kind of rustic golf club and Iplayed with a ping rapture
hybrid, some kind of six iron.
That wasn't very good, ping Itwo six iron or something like
(38:49):
that, and some wedge that I wishdidn't have the grip ahead
because it would have beenbetter.
And I played with just theseguys that were like factory guys
and like they just got off workand they had a couple beers
with them, you know, and we werejust out for a walk and like
this.
They were just, they were notgood golfers and I don't think
they would take offense to thatbecause they told me that
repeatedly, but at the end ofthe day, trillium, it was
(39:11):
amazing, right, if you watchthem on the tee, hit the ball,
you knew they weren't very good.
But once they got within about150 yards of the pen dude, they
started flighting these shotsdown and hitting these creative
bumping runs and like just, itdidn't look like what we do over
here in terms of golf, becausethe setups are so much softer
(39:32):
and it's a little more targeted.
But like over there, like youdon't have to hit a perfect shot
up in the air and, to yourpoint, like you can figure out
how to kind of slap it aroundand make you know a score.
And man, is it freaking, cooland beautiful.
Because I thought it was justamazing, because, realistically,
those guys showed me morecontrol of the golf ball than I
see most scratch players here inthe United States have, and I
(39:55):
mean that in all sincerity.
Speaker 2 (39:58):
And probably the best part, is they played fast.
Speaker 1 (40:00):
They did.
They, I mean you're, you'rehustling right like they.
We're gonna get as many holesin as we can before it gets dark
, and they didn't care if wewound up on 14 and had to walk
back in the dark.
I mean it was a great time.
Speaker 2 (40:12):
That's a great time and that's just such a good
example of players Just havingfeel and working with what they
have and their experience intheir plane a lot of golf and
they're playing quickly and theyhave a lot of shots that they
can, as opposed to our approachwhich sometimes tends to get a
little clogged up in the let'sbe perfect.
Yeah, so that's like one end ofthe spectrum and then, and then
(40:33):
really Scott Leonard, the other.
Speaker 1 (40:36):
You know, I just think it really is squeezes the
joy out of golf because you knowit's just.
You know the problem is is mostpeople going back to?
You know a little bit of thebenchmark conversation we had
earlier.
Most people's benchmark is like20 minutes of PGA tour coverage
on a Sunday afternoon, right,and it's basically a highlight
reel that they present as a golftournament and it's just really
(40:57):
not how golf works for people.
And I think that when they seethat, and then they see a guy
that quote-unquote doesn't lookall that athletic which is
completely not true, but that'swhat gets said I think that
they're like, oh well, I can dothat.
And then they get out there andthey pretty quickly find out
that it's a different gamealtogether.
Speaker 2 (41:15):
Here's another issue on that point that I think I see
, which I give a lot of To graceto the people that are feeling
this, because I can understandwhat it must feel like.
I'm learning tennis and I'm indevelopment Two years of it, I'm
learning drums oh.
Oh, very cool, yeah, very cool.
So I make him a sick everyone.
(41:36):
But when, when we are, let'ssay, you know you're playing and
you realize, okay, you need,you need a certain aspect, like
you need to be hitting up on it,for example on the driver.
Let's say you're hitting eightdown and you're hitting these
low, they're landing at like 180and then rolling to 250.
(41:57):
That's not, that's gonna be aproblem in some golf courses.
Okay, so Adjusting someone setup or give, giving some of the
different ball position orfeeling like they're doing some
different, the player may feellike that's an astronomical
change.
They may feel like that iscompletely Upending their whole
(42:18):
deal, right, the deal with thefeel.
So From from, from the outsideperspective, as a coach, you say
, well, this is not that big ofa change, but your feet, I
respect that.
Your feel is so different.
So the question then comes Well, are you gonna?
Are you gonna just Got throughit, or are you gonna shy away
(42:39):
and say I can't because it's toodisruptive?
And this is where I come in andsay well, you're gonna have what
you always have, like you're.
You're always gonna have that30% miss where you're never
gonna carry that water on thathole.
You don't change right and talkabout Versatility.
Playing in other courses aroundthe country or world, you're
(43:00):
gonna come into some situationswhere you're gonna want that
shot, where you're gonna want ashot with your wedge that
actually has the ability to goup rather than just bump and run
.
You're gonna put everythingthrough 50 yards out like you're
gonna want some other skills.
Speaker 1 (43:13):
So in other words.
Speaker 2 (43:15):
Someone has to decide how much they they really want
it and then actually commit tothe process and put the time in
and and really be okay thatthere are gonna be a lot of
misses.
It's really uncomfortable butin order to strategize, it's
both pull it together.
You have to be focused ontechnique initially and you have
to commit to it and you can'tgo back to the old way.
Speaker 1 (43:36):
Yeah, no, I completely agree it's.
It's difficult.
You know I get frustratedSometimes because you know I do
work with a lot of just you know10, 15 plus handicaps.
But I also have the the extremehonor to work with some of the
best players in the world, andPeople always make comments that
well, if I had that player, I'dbe a great coach too and I go
(43:59):
really well, what would you tellthem?
And it's they they get quietpretty quick, right, and it's
like the better the player, theharder it is to Really try to
help them.
But what I learned Helpingbetter players has really helped
me help everybody else, becauseat the end of the day, when I
(44:19):
look at a golf shot, it's not astandalone event.
What I'm trying to see is I'mtrying to see the pattern that
led to that shot right.
So like for a lot of, for a lotof good players, let's just say
, right, they hit a lot ofreally great shots on the range.
And then they're like what doyou think of that pro?
Right, and it's like well, thatlooks really nice and I would
be willing to bet out of ahundred shots you probably do
(44:41):
that about 20 of them, which isgreat.
But the issue is is that the 30that you hit that are really,
really bad, out of that pattern,are Unplayable and they make
you get another ball out of yourbag and the magnitude of your
miss out of this pattern isreally what's holding you back
as a player.
So we can keep trying to hit itto two feet every time, but it
would be much simpler to helpyou stop making six, sevens and
(45:03):
eights.
Then it would be to teach youto make more two, threes and
fours.
So it's like just trying tohelp people sometimes like
understand that we're not sayingthat you Can't hit a good shot
this way.
You can.
But when we look at the overallpattern behind that, yeah, you
got away with it there and youmight want to go play the
lottery tonight, but you're notgoing to be able to live and die
(45:24):
with that because it's justgoing to create this huge
magnitude miss that takes youout of play.
Speaker 2 (45:29):
That's yeah, that's right.
This is where I like our ghost,because it gives you, on course
, data of it.
And then you can look at thatand say, well, like the other
day, he's looking at a playerand he's telling me that it that
it's his chip shot to shuriken,but, but, but, and I look at, I
look, I'm noticing his teeshots were awfully short.
And then I started looking atthe dispersion and I thought,
(45:51):
well, geez, here we are workingon your short game, which I call
that defense.
Your offense would be off thetee because you're you're giving
yourself 240 through 220 yardapproach shots.
Speaker 1 (46:04):
Yeah, you know, nobody's gonna live with that.
Speaker 2 (46:06):
No, and so of course, you're gonna have to have a
wedge in your hand, becausethat's a pretty hard club to hit
from the green, especiallywhere you've been hitting your
drives.
You're not in the fairway, sothat game.
So if he had never mentionedwanting or needing to work on
his drive, he always saidthey're fine.
So when someone comes to me andthey say something, I mean I'm
listening to what they're saying, of course, but I don't always
really know, unless I have somedata or something, some evidence
(46:30):
, to kind of base it onabsolutely so.
Speaker 1 (46:34):
You know a question that I'm really interested in.
I've got one more after this,but we're kind of, we've spent
some time together and it's beenwonderful and I just really
appreciate you coming on becauseyou're so insightful.
But Think back Trillium, maybe10, 15 years ago Uh, you as a
coach, right, and I wouldimagine, uh, that that was quite
(46:55):
a bit of a different coach,right.
But I want you to think back 10to 15 years and then kind of
fast forward to today and kindof doing this podcast and maybe
your lessons this morning.
But how would we get here?
How did we go from where youwere 10, 15 years ago to where
you are today?
What would you say is like the,the biggest learning that
(47:15):
you've had over that time andwhat's helped you get to the
person you are today?
Speaker 2 (47:21):
Okay.
So there's always a lot ofstuff that I'm that I'm learning
and getting better at, but Ithe the biggest thing that's
really stand out my mind whenyou're asking this is Is is my
realization and understandingthat just by communicating to
someone what they need to do Isan enough, and when they leave
(47:42):
my lesson T, they may or may not, they may or may not have a
understood what, what justhappened, or be able to then
carry on with what we were doingby themselves, and so that
really was the Impetus for me togo back to school to help
people to really figure out.
(48:02):
Are that what are?
The silver bowl.
Speaker 1 (48:03):
It's such a badass thing, by the way, like that's
so badass, brilliant, like thatreally is cool, like I really do
think that that is.
That's the one thing man liketo.
I mean, I had, to a way, lesserdegree.
I did not go back to school Godhelp me but like to to be able
to stop yourself in your tracksand go, hey, I got to get better
at this thing.
And then to commit to gettingbetter and then showing up and
(48:26):
like, looking people in the Faceand going like, hey, I got
something better, now let's trythis.
Speaker 2 (48:31):
I'm sure enough that is bad.
I don't care what anybody saysI'm showing up.
Yeah, I gotta show up, michael.
Speaker 1 (48:37):
You do bad, you kill that, so.
So I love the fact that you'realways learning, like I mean, I
think that every coach is gonnasay that right, and then for you
to take such a serious,intentional path and Wanting to
understand you know one of themechanisms so much better, I
mean, I think that's reallyreally cool.
So the big question, that'salways the hard one, right, and
(49:01):
I know that there is an answer,because you're a professional
coach and obviously resultsmatter and I totally understand
that.
But that's not allowed to beyour answer to this question.
You can't just say results,even though I know that they do
matter, but how do you measuresuccess with your client?
Speaker 2 (49:20):
It's funny.
You should ask that questionbecause on my way to work today
I was thinking I what?
I was thinking of the number ofpeople that I've taught in my
whole stretch of teaching thathave made real meaningful
strides in, in, in, in theirpractice, and I was kind of
(49:43):
relating it to my own strugglewith tennis.
Like, wow, that's really hardto do.
I See the people around me thatdidn't decide to bite the
bullet and make the change likea golf or tennis, and you see
what that looks like.
And then you see the peoplethat did bite the bullet.
So for me, the and what?
(50:04):
When I say bite the bullet, Imean Like doing the drills so
that you don't, you don'tcontinue to go steep and over
the top, like Whatever it is,but actually sitting there and
just putting the repetitions onand and seeing some real,
miserable, miserable outcomesbut then finally letting that,
(50:27):
like letting it all happen andyou see the lights.
I think it's not necessarilyoutcome, as much as it is
someone's willingness to stay inthe Uncomfortable realm for a
terrible time it's just awful,like it's just so bad.
Speaker 1 (50:44):
Like when I'm sitting on my little stool and my
little drum teacher, like I cantell, like he's actually
thinking about maybe throwing asymbol at my head, like in whip
flash or something like that.
Like when it's going like, and Ijust I look at him, I go, dude,
I'm sorry, I'm really like, Ijust apologize, I'm trying
really hard, I'm just not good,it's so.
But it's so nice to have thathumility because it's so easy to
(51:08):
then be able to come back toyou know, coaching others, and
be able to show some empathy andsome sympathy and like, just
like, dude, I get it, it's onthe on the tennis court.
Speaker 2 (51:18):
I have to say to myself quite often, like I have
really bad sailor mouth when I'mplaying and I usually don't
swear much, that f word comesout all the time.
So I realized you know, firstof all I don't deserve to be mad
about making this any, but it'sright and I'm not mad at
anybody else.
But I realized I can't be, Ican't be fun for anyone else to
(51:40):
see me, even my coach to see.
So I just stopped doing it, soI just stopped judging and it's
more like the, the intensity.
My intensity level is reallyhigh when I'm practicing and
playing.
It's really high and it'sreally on and and my like.
My hope is that I pull it offand most of the time I don't.
(52:01):
But my thoughts are right.
So, like I'm, I just got a, Ijust got to go back and like and
I'm inspired.
I'm really inspired because I'mthinking.
This is what I was thinking thismorning.
I was thinking my students Arebetter at this than I am.
Like I've got some reallyincredible Experiences.
Theme people go through thatand not have a high expectation.
(52:24):
Like I'm really athletic, so myexpectations are high.
That's a hard student to havewhen someone comes from another
Highly skilled right, they'rehighly skilled in another sport
and they come over to golf andthey expect they should get it
quickly.
Speaker 1 (52:38):
And it's just not a golfer is always the most
successful business person.
Always, like, always, always,always, like I Feel so bad for
people that are so accomplishedin other areas in their life and
like it's kind of I don't wantto say it's all going right for
them, but obviously it's goingwell, and then they get to a
golf course, man, and likeeverything goes well, and then
they get to that one beautifulplace on the planet and like it
(53:00):
just doesn't work for them and,man, it just drives them Monkers
.
It is crazy.
They are the heart.
You're absolutely right.
But I think it's also, you knowour job really with that person
Really turns into thatexpectation and goal setting
right and like really helpingthem.
You know, maybe through yourtennis stories or my drumming
stories or whatever they may be,but you know, kind of Showing
(53:24):
them that like hey, man, likebuckle up, because this is hard,
there's a reason why you knowthere's not that many people who
are really all that good at itand like you better learn to
enjoy the scenery, because ifyou're gonna Be miserable, then
go be miserable somewhere else,because this is never gonna work
for you right, or find theright person to help you figure
out where where the breakdown isand then work on it.
(53:46):
Absolutely so, man, that was fun.
I know that we are out of time.
Unfortunately, I could and Iwill.
I'll end up texting Trilliumabout 15 minutes after we end
the zoom call and we'll keep theconversation going, but it's
been great having Trillium on.
I really do appreciate it.
I got a text message while Iwas doing this from the, the
double D, and he is not feelingwell, so we wish him a speedy
(54:10):
recovery.
We hope he's doing well and hewill be back during the next
episode.
So please do me a favor makesure to go and find Trillium
Rose on Instagram.
She does an amazing job.
Everything she does is veryprofessional and very well done,
and if you are in the Northeastarea and looking for a great
coach, that can definitely helpyou put together a plan to see
(54:31):
your Best results.
I can't recommend Trilliumenough.
So, trillium, do you haveanything you'd like to say?
To send this off?
Speaker 2 (54:38):
Oh, Michael, thanks so much.
I I just I like to think peopleget better.
So if you, if there's a will,there's a way.
Speaker 1 (54:47):
I love it.
That's great.
So thank you again to Trillium,thank you to everybody for
letting us borrow her for just alittle while, and that's it for
us.
So make sure that you go aheadand download this podcast and
subscribe, and then you also canfind the full videos on our
YouTube page at making the turn.
Thanks so much.
Until next time, keep grinding.
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If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.