February 7, 2025 • 27 mins
Chris and Patrick explore strategies for discussing heated topics with people you strongly disagree with.
They emphasize the importance of understanding why you want to have such conversations, preparing for emotional triggers, and having a game plan. They recommend being intentional about your mindset — advocating dialogue over debate, perspectives rather than positions, and assuming positive intent. They explore techniques for effective listening, including tapping into genuine curiosity, mirroring, and using the Socratic method to help you understand and potentially influence the other person's viewpoint.
Finally, they stress the value of being gracious and grateful throughout the conversation.
Getting Clear on Why You Want to Have the Conversation
- Some motivations, like wanting to mend relationships or broaden perspectives, are positive, while others, like dominating a conversation, are not.
- Be honest with yourself about intentions and be aware of when higher intentions are compromised by lower ones.
Being Intentional About Your Mindset
- Be intentional about your mindset during the conversation, and choose a context that focuses on dialog rather than debate.
- Set a mindset of cooperation over conflict, and consider perspectives and values rather than positions.
- Language can influence the tone of the conversation. Shift from a battle metaphor to a cooperative exploration.
- Assume positive intent and look for connection over victory.
Managing Emotional Reactions and Responses
- Responses are conscious choices; reactions are automatic.
- Avoid attacking character or body language that conveys contempt.
- Bring genuine curiosity rather than judgment,
Having a Game Plan for the Conversation
- Role play the conversation in advance with a neutral third party, like a friend or coach.
- Get into a conducive emotional state before starting the conversation.
- The "pause and pivot" technique.
Inviting the Other Person to the Conversation
- Invite the other person to the conversation and get their consent.
- Stating intentions positively.
Making Sure the Other Person Feels Heard and Respected
- The importance of listening, not just to respond but to understand and make the other person feel heard.
- Mirror back what the other person says to show understanding.
- The Socratic method as a way to understand and persuade.
Focusing on Values Rather Than Positions, and Being Gracious
- Focus on shared values rather than just positions in the conversation.
- Be gracious and grateful to maintain a positive tone.
- Focus on shared goals.
Checking in and Recalibrating
- Check in periodically to see how you're doing against your stated intentions.
- Celebrate wins and recalibrate if the conversation veers off track.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
I'm really curious how it is that an otherwise smart person could have this dumb view of
(00:03):
things.
Can you help me understand that, Patrick?
Welcome to Making Yourself Clear, where we explore topics we find interesting on the
overall theme of clarity of thought and communication.
I'm Chris.
I'm Patrick.
And today we're going to explore how to keep friends and influence people.
(00:25):
And what we mean by that is referring to this phenomenon of wanting to have a conversation
with somebody in your circle, maybe it's a family member or a friend or a colleague,
who has a strongly held opinion or view on something that's very different from yours
and where there's some emotional charge to it.
Often this will be some opinion someone else holds that you might find upsetting, or you
(00:46):
might have an opinion or a view on a topic and they find it upsetting.
And there's something compelling you to try to talk this through with that person.
Yeah, we're seeing quite a bit of that now.
There's been some really tense elections.
We're seeing it especially in the political sphere where we might have a disagreement
of opinion with a person who we otherwise care about and it makes it difficult to potentially
(01:10):
keep them in our lives.
We're seeing a lot of people getting cut out of other people's lives because of that difference
of opinion.
And so really we wanted to just unpack ways in which that we can have those kinds of conversations
and not have it blow up relationships.
Absolutely.
The world is becoming more and more polarized and people are getting more and more separate.
(01:32):
And if there's anything we can do to help reduce that and help bring people back together
to have these kinds of conversations in ways that are productive, then we would love to
do that.
So I think the first and most important step here, if you're thinking about a conversation
like this, is to really get clear on why you want to do it in the first place.
(01:53):
Yeah.
So why do I want to have this conversation with a person?
As we alluded to, it possibly is because you care about the person, you want them in your
life, you want to keep them around.
So that's going to take some preparation.
That's going to take some skill, some emotional regulation, some patience as well.
And there's possibly a little bit of risk involved.
(02:15):
There is.
There are no guarantees.
No matter how skillfully you navigate the conversation and how clear your mind is going
into it, we can never control how someone else reacts.
So there is some risk that the conversation or the other person has a negative reaction
and that it blows up.
So that's why it's important to get clear on why you want to do it.
And that's worth double clicking on because we often have multiple motives for doing the
(02:39):
things that we do.
And I would say some of those motivations would be what I would call above the line,
meaning coming from a higher part of ourselves.
You'd recognize these right away.
If you're concerned about a difference of opinion causing a rift in a relationship and
the relationship matters and you want to mend it, well, that's, I'd say, a good reason.
(03:01):
Or if you're wanting to broaden your perspective and actually learn something from people who
view a situation differently, these are all good reasons.
There can also be below the line kinds of reasons.
There can be some shadow stuff for sure.
If you want to dominate a conversation or if you just want to be right in the conversation,
(03:22):
those might not be good reasons to have this particular conversation.
And here's where it's important to be honest with yourself because we like to whitewash
our intentions and we'll convince ourselves that we have nothing but the highest intentions.
But a lot of these shadowy things can sneak in.
And if you find yourself flipping back and forth between higher and lower intentions
(03:43):
in the conversation, that becomes evident.
You may start off with good intent, but then somebody says something that triggers you,
and now you're all about being right and showing them how wrong they are.
And that's something to watch for.
But we'll get into the how-to later.
Going in, just make sure it's worth it.
Make sure that your reasons for wanting to have the conversation and the potential benefits
justify the effort and the risk because these things are hard.
(04:04):
Yeah.
So the first thing you want to do after you've come up with a reason as to why you want to
have the conversation, why is this important, you want to be intentional about your mindset.
So how am I going to be throughout this conversation and what do I want to ground myself in?
What's that context that I'm going to keep coming back to?
Because if this is something that's important to you and there's a huge difference of opinion
(04:27):
and it's a person you care about, there's going to be some emotional triggers.
You're probably going to stand to get dysregulated at one point or another.
So what is it that I'm coming back to?
What's my true north here?
So a big part of that is choose a mindset.
So dialogue versus debate, cooperation versus picking a battle, perspectives and values
(04:47):
versus positioning.
Those are some different contexts that we might want to set and dive into a little bit
here.
Yeah.
Really, really good points.
And often even in the language we use to describe a conversation, we sometimes use the metaphors
of war, right?
Like you're staking out a position and then defending it or you're attacking the other
person's argument.
And baked into the language we use is this battle sort of metaphor.
(05:09):
And that affects how we view these things.
So if you consciously override some of that and say, okay, I don't want this to be a battle.
I want it to be cooperative.
I want it to be you and me exploring an issue instead of you versus me.
Right.
Yeah.
So it's a dialogue.
It's not a debate.
I'm not coming in with these are my points and I need to prove them.
It's more about, okay, let's have a conversation and we know that there's probably going to
(05:33):
be some differences of opinion.
Yeah.
And think in terms of perspective rather than position.
So when you have a position, it has this feeling of rigidity to it and like it's a static thing
that you're not likely to be uprooted from.
Whereas if it's a perspective or a vantage point, instead of saying this is my position
and I'm defending it, it's, hey, come over here and like take a look at the view from
(05:57):
this part of the hill.
Maybe it looks a little differently from how you see it.
And let me come over there and try to look down into the valley from where you stand
and see what I might see differently.
Right.
I love that.
That's a great way to think about it.
So instead of I'm standing here, you're standing there.
It's I'm looking from here and you're looking from there.
Exactly.
And let's see if we can get a different vantage point.
(06:17):
Yeah.
Another one to keep in mind is just assume positive intent.
If a person has a strongly held view on something, it's not likely that they hold that view in
order to piss you off.
There's something other than that to it and they're not trying to be evil or ignorant
or insert whatever denigrating adjective you want.
(06:38):
It's probably not that.
Yeah.
No one sets out and says, you know what I'm going to do today?
I'm going to be a bigot or very few people at some day.
But like presumably the person you're spending all this effort trying to have this conversation
with is not someone who you'd put in that category.
Yeah.
If they're worth having the conversation with, then they are likely not falling into
that camp.
One would hope.
So that's one is assume positive intent and also look for connection over victory.
(07:03):
Right?
We often feel like a conversation or these sorts of debates are something we're trying
to win.
And if both sides are trying to win, then it goes very predictably.
Both sides will leave feeling victorious and having less respect and less affinity for
and connection with the other person.
So index on connection as well as what you're talking about.
(07:25):
But like try to bring yourself back to connection if you find yourself drifting into an adversarial
stance.
Right.
So drifting into an adversarial stance can spark based on the reaction that we have to
something that somebody says.
So you might want to position yourself in a space where your mindset is I'm going to
respond to things that somebody says rather than react to something that somebody says.
(07:49):
Reaction, you know, reactivity is, it can be violent.
It can be sort of a snap into that emotional state.
Right.
And that's not to say that your emotions are not valid.
But if you're coming from an emotional place, it can be difficult to respond in a way that
furthers the dialogue.
Yeah, I think that's a really good point.
(08:10):
And the way I like to think of the difference between a response and a reaction is that
a reaction is automatic.
It's a thing that it's almost like it happens to us.
Right.
Whereas a response is something we consciously choose.
And so if you notice yourself on autopilot and just kind of thrown around by your own
emotions, you're likely in a reactive state rather than responsive one.
And you want to notice that and do what you need to do to self-regulate emotionally.
(08:35):
Maybe it's pause, take a deep breath, and just get yourself back into a more thoughtful
state where you can actually respond with your prefrontal cortex rather than reacting
from the amygdala.
That's definitely one that hooks me.
That's one of the only one that hasn't happened to anybody else.
I'm the only one with that chink in my arm.
Exactly.
Okay.
(08:56):
So what we talked about was assuming positive intent and a big part of that is if you go
in thinking this person is bigot, this person has the wrong state of mind, if we make negative
assumptions about the person that we're going to have this conversation with, but you also
want to make a concerted effort not to attack character.
And body language is a big part of that too.
(09:16):
So if we're rolling our eyes when somebody says something, they're going to pick up on
that and that's going to match up.
Sarcasm, snark, all of these things.
What they convey is contempt, which is like really looking down on someone else and viewing
them as less than.
I'm guilty of this way more often than I'd like to admit.
I get super judgy and it's like this contempt, disdain, high and mighty righteousness thing
(09:41):
that I can get into if I'm angry.
The other thing too, and one way that this can sneak in, because you may not come into
the conversation assuming that this person has some character flaw, but what you might
have whether you know it or not is a belief like, I can't imagine how somebody could hold
that viewpoint and not be racist, bigoted, whatever, too woke, pick your favorite thing.
(10:07):
And that's when you walk in with that belief, you're kind of setting yourself up to make
negative assumptions about the person and your curiosity has shut down.
Yeah.
And then you're just going to poison the conversation.
I mean, you're going to ratchet up the tension, you're going to poison the conversation and
you're really not going to walk away with anything.
I like what you said just there, curiosity.
So curiosity is another thing that as another tool that you can put in your tool belt and
(10:31):
be curious.
Why is it that this resonates with you, this particular political candidate or this particular
point of view?
What about this is compelling for you?
The conversation will probably go a lot smoother too.
Yeah, curiosity is much, much better than judgment and one will kind of displace the
other.
When you're in a judgmental state, it has this feeling of certainty to it and certainty
(10:55):
is the antithesis of curiosity.
And vice versa.
If you can bring genuine curiosity back into your intentions, that'll push the judgment
out of the way.
And where this can be tricky is if your initial reaction to someone else's position is to
feel strongly and negatively emotionally about it, it can be a big ask to bring curiosity.
(11:20):
But one thing that can be helpful is remember that you can be curious about why someone
else feels a certain way and that's not at all the same as agreeing with their position.
You're not being asked to submit to or agree to anything.
You're just trying to understand how they see the world.
Yeah.
And I like to use a genuine curiosity because I can come in and I can act curious from a
(11:40):
place of judgment and say like, why is it that you think that this bigoted view is the
right way to be?
That's not going to get me.
Yeah.
I'm really curious how it is that an otherwise smart person could have this dumb view of
things.
Right.
Can you help me understand that, Patrick?
Yeah.
Yeah.
Not that kind of curiosity.
No, that's not going to get you anywhere.
It'll get you somewhere, but you may not like it.
(12:01):
If the point is maintaining this relationship and getting through the murkies, because we're
going to have that.
We're going to brush up against things in people that we don't love.
And so it's about, how do I salvage the relationship?
How do I make sure that I don't throw the baby out with the bath water?
(12:21):
So another piece that we want to focus on is having a game plan.
Yeah.
And that's a really good point.
So high stakes conversations of any sort, just like anything that matters to you, you
want to think about in advance.
You want to plan it out.
You might even want to get someone like a friend or a coach or someone who's neutral
and isn't part of the conversation and role play it in advance.
(12:42):
That allows you to practice how you're going to cue up the conversation.
That's a really valuable tool.
Yeah, that's great.
We actually, we have a mutual friend who calls it a prevent.
A prevent.
Yes.
He gets to vent his point of view and how he feels about the person in the conversation
and get all that judgy stuff out of the way.
And then he's preventing that from coming into the actual conversation when it happens.
(13:04):
Shout out to our friend Andrew for that one.
So back to the game plan.
So what does a game plan look like?
You want to pick a suitable time and place for when you're going to have this conversation.
Kids learn pretty early to be on the lookout for when mom and dad are in a good mood versus
a bad mood.
Right.
And if they're smart, they wait till they're in a good mood before they ask for things.
Right.
So it's something like that.
(13:25):
Set yourself up for success.
So make sure there's adequate time to have the conversation.
Pick a suitable place.
Make sure you are in a conducive emotional state to having this go well.
So what does that mean?
It means calm, centered, balanced, low in reactivity.
I mean, we saw a lot of tough conversations taking place the day after the election.
(13:48):
Right.
That's probably not the time or place to do that.
When I mean, emotions are super high then.
Your candidate won, your candidate lost.
You're probably going through a lot.
Maybe you need to take.
Take a beat.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Whatever it is before you have that conversation with the person who is celebrating this victory
that feels like an absolute.
A loss to you.
(14:09):
Yeah.
Yeah.
And also if you have certain practices that you know are useful to help you get into a
conducive state, like if you meditate, you might want to meditate before having this
conversation.
Great point.
Do some breathing exercises, a bit of yoga, a nice workout.
Like whatever sets you up to be at your best for a conversation like this.
(14:29):
Yeah.
One of the things that I'm curious about Chris is what do I do if things go sideways on me?
One aspect of having a game plan going in is recognizing, okay, you've got a clear intention,
you're in a good state, the conditions are as good as they're going to be, and that's
not a guarantee.
So there are a lot of ways the conversation might go sideways.
(14:50):
And most of those ways are probably things you've experienced before and might be somewhat
foreseeable or predictable.
Right?
So somebody starts to adopt a certain tone of voice, things get tense.
You can feel yourself getting activated.
Actually sit down and think about, okay, if it goes sideways in this particular way, here's
what I'm going to do about it.
Here's what I'm going to say.
(15:12):
If it starts to escalate beyond a certain point, what will you do?
Will you pause the conversation and suggest you circle back to it later?
And that way you're not caught thinking on your feet and relying on impulsive decisions
in the moment.
You've got a consciously chosen game plan.
Soldiers do this in the military, all of their training and the exercises they run are so
that they don't have to figure out what to do while being shot at.
(15:32):
They've trained it and they've ran scenarios that are similar over and over and over again.
So they've got that muscle motor memory for what's going to work as opposed to just panicking
and having to think on the fly.
Right.
So it's what we said earlier, right?
It comes back to that response versus reaction.
If I feel myself reacting, I'm going to take a beat.
And there's the, what we call pause and pivot technique.
So I'm going to take a moment.
I'm just going to pause here and maybe we pivot for the conversation.
(15:56):
Maybe this is not the right time to have, maybe I thought it was and it's no longer
the right time to have the conversation.
So hey, things are getting heated right now.
Why don't we circle back to this?
Can we just take a minute and get out of the, the, the Merck of, of that, that tough conversation?
Yeah.
And if it's escalating to a point where you need to pause the conversation, that's definitely
one way to pivot.
(16:16):
But if you, if you're on your game and you catch it before it gets to that point, you
can sense things are starting to, things are starting to heat up, but they haven't yet,
it's still salvageable.
There's still room to bring this back.
And you can pause and say, Hey, can we take a step back and look at what's most important
here?
Because people often get lost in the weeds.
And if you zoom out to a 10,000 foot view and say, okay, what are we really trying to
(16:38):
accomplish?
What's the goal here?
And reorient yourself towards that or reorient yourself towards what is, what are some things
we value in common here?
Remind yourself that you're not enemies.
You are your collaborators in this exploratory dialogue.
And that comes back to the very first thing we said, get clear on why you want to have
this conversation.
What's your context?
(16:58):
Right?
Well, I want to salvage this friendship.
I want to understand where this person's coming from.
Whatever your why is.
And so that, yeah, coming back to that will really help.
What's the shared goal here?
So in terms of navigating the conversation itself, we've talked about, first of all,
getting clear on why you want to do it.
Then we talked about intentionally choosing a mindset for going in, coming up with a game
(17:21):
plan, meaning when, where, how you're going to get into a good emotional state, how you
will navigate bumps in the road during the conversation.
So we've covered a lot of ground so far.
Next piece is how do you actually do it?
Yeah.
So first of all, setting a time and place is going to be crucial.
That's going to involve a small conversation with the person.
(17:42):
Hey, would it be okay if we had a conversation, you know, tomorrow, later today, next week?
I'd really like to talk to you.
And then stating your intentions upfront, you know, listen, this, this, whatever it
is, this, this election, or maybe it's a personal thing.
Maybe it's an interpersonal conversation.
Maybe it has nothing to do with a larger, with politics.
(18:03):
People play about things that have other than politics.
Is that a thing anymore?
Yeah.
So maybe this is in your relationship with your, with your partner, your spouse that,
you know, I really need to talk to you about this specific thing.
Could we pick a time and place to actually talk about it?
So an open invitation to the person into the conversation, get their consent to participate.
(18:26):
This one is super important.
If you just bring it on somebody and you ambush them into the conversation, then they're in
the position of being in that reactive state.
Because at the beginning of this chat, we talked about if somebody just brings something
on you, you may not be ready for it.
That's right.
Don't put the other person in that position because you're setting, you're setting the
two of you up to fail.
Absolutely.
(18:47):
So a few things happen when you, when you state the intention upfront and that includes,
okay, I'd like to have a conversation with you about X.
My intention is I really want to come to understand your position better.
And I know this has been a source of friction for us in the past.
I'm hoping we can come to more of a shared understanding because I value our relationship
and I don't want this to be in between us.
(19:09):
So that's now you've stated that your intention is something positive that they can likely
align behind as opposed to, Hey, I want to show you what kind of a dummy you are.
And I want you to agree that I'm right.
And you're an idiot.
There you go.
Because the people might assume that when you come at them with something that's counter
to their position.
So state your intention upfront and then invite them in.
And that might look just can be simple as, Hey, I'd really like to have this conversation.
(19:33):
Here's what I would like to get out of it.
Are you open to that?
And it's now a good time.
Right.
And that does a few things.
When you spring something on somebody unannounced, it's an imposition on them.
You're coming at them with your intention and you're presupposing that they will now
have to comply.
Like here's what's happening.
Deal with it.
Right.
And that can feel rather dominating and forceful.
(19:53):
And now they're at the effect of something.
They're kind of a victim of this thing you're doing to them.
Whereas if you say, Hey, like this matters.
I think it's important.
Are you, are you open to exploring this with me?
Most people will say yes, because well, for a few reasons, most people want to see themselves
as the kind of person who would engage in that kind of conversation.
And by agreeing to it, now they've kind of, they've made a commitment to actually be receptive
(20:18):
to having that conversation with you.
And then this consistency principle kicks in where we want to be consistent with what
we've just said about ourselves.
And then the other piece is by getting them to opt in, you're showing some deference
and giving them agency to choose their own adventure.
They're choosing to participate in the conversation now, as opposed to having it happen to them.
(20:39):
So by, by letting them choose, giving them some agency, it really, it helps to just put
them in a position where they're not on the back foot and they're not going to have to
be reactive and they're not going to have to be defensive.
And you can actually get on with having a constructive conversation and hopefully coming
to a point where at the very least you understand one another a little better.
Yeah.
(21:00):
You're going to have much better odds talking to someone who feels empowered, respected,
validated and invited to participate.
Right.
And who feels kind of ambushed or attacked with a bunch of judgment.
So then what are some tools that we can use?
What are some techniques that we can use to make sure that we are doing our best to make
that person feel heard, feel respected, and, and as though this was not just merely, you
(21:24):
know, an attack on their position.
First of all, the biggest thing is listening, right?
If I'm trying to understand your position on something, I need to let you explain to
me why you hold that belief.
And that, again, having you explain something to me doesn't mean that I agree with you.
It doesn't mean that I'm going to change my point of view.
(21:45):
But if the object here is to understand, then I've got to listen.
Yeah.
And we're going to do, I'm sure we'll do a whole other episode on different levels of
listening and unpacking that in greater detail.
But the quick and dirty version would be, there's listening in order to come up with
your really witty, smart response that is the gotcha moment.
(22:07):
That's not what we're talking about.
No, we're talking about actually listening for the purpose of two purposes.
One is really deeply understanding where the person's coming from.
And the second one, which is just as important, maybe more so is having them feel understood.
And those are different things.
You can understand someone and they may or may not know that they may or may not feel
it.
(22:28):
Right.
And what's really important here is that the other person feels understood because that's
disarming.
That's going to bring down the tension.
So you should be able to, at a bare minimum, be able to mirror back whatever that person
has said to you.
And that's going to display that you actually got the content.
Right.
If I'm just sitting here and I've got my point in my head, I'm just waiting for you to stop
(22:49):
talking so that I can jump in and say whatever smart thing that I've been sitting on.
I'm really not listening at that point.
I'm just waiting.
I'm waiting your turn.
Yeah.
So I can interrupt you.
I can wait for you to shut up or I can actually sit down and I can absorb what it is you're
saying and then be able to mirror it back.
Okay.
I hear what you're saying.
I think that this is it and check in.
(23:11):
Right.
Did I get that clear?
Are we operating from the same point where we both understand what this is and what this
means?
There's something else too, which is people's opinions are rarely changed on the basis of
facts and arguments.
As much as we'd like to think that that's how we work, it tends not to be.
And this is where something like the Socratic method comes in so handy.
(23:34):
This is they call it Socratic after Socrates.
And really what he did was he would ask a lot of questions.
And so back to that curiosity thing.
And by asking questions, why is it you feel that way or explain to me how you got there,
it's a much more effective way to understand somebody, but also to persuade them.
So if somebody is espousing a particular position and you know that there's something that they
(23:57):
value that seems to you to maybe be in contrast with that, you can say, okay, so what I'm
hearing is this is how you feel about that issue.
I'm curious about something though, because I know you as someone who values X and I'm
having trouble reconciling those two.
Can you explain to me how you square that circle?
And then listen.
And this isn't, this is not a trap.
This is not for a gotcha.
You're not cross examining them.
(24:17):
You're actually listening with curiosity.
And one of two things can happen and sometimes both.
One at minimum, you'll come to understand them better.
And two, people often soften their positions when faced with these questions like that.
That's why the Socratic method is so powerful.
By being gentle and curious, you may lead them towards some of their own cognitive dissonance.
And when they encounter that, the impulse that they'll have to reconcile that may cause
(24:42):
them to loosen up on some of their more tightly held beliefs and actually become more flexible.
Well, and I think that's something that is important to make a point of.
Just because I have a deeply held belief doesn't mean I thought about it for a really long
time.
I would hope that that's the case, but that's not necessarily true.
Just because I feel some very strong way about something doesn't mean that I've sat down
(25:06):
and I've, I've checked all the angles and done the math.
So exactly having conversations like this.
Again, if you're willing to put in the time and you're willing to come from a place where
you're, you're clean and you don't have, you know, a nefarious intentions or to make somebody
wrong, you may find that the root of the whole thing, which is again, connection, what do
(25:28):
we value together?
All of that sort of stuff.
Yeah.
I think two last points.
One, we've sort of touched on earlier, but it might be worth making explicit.
Index on what they value.
People may have a strongly held belief or even a position on something.
See if you can get past the position into the value that underlies it, because you're
(25:48):
more likely to find alignment around values rather than in the details of a particular
view.
Right.
And then the last thing is be gracious and grateful along the way.
Acknowledge that these conversations are hard and check in with yourself periodically and
with the other person to see how you're doing against your stated intentions.
Right.
So at the beginning of the conversation, you said, Hey, my goals for this conversation
are I'd like to understand you better.
(26:10):
I want us to, with curiosity, come to understand each other's positions better and perspectives
better rather than positions, and I want this to make us feel closer rather than farther
apart.
Right.
For example, partway through the conversation and maybe periodically as you go, check in,
Hey, just let's zoom out and say, we set out to achieve the following goals here.
How are we doing?
(26:31):
Yeah.
Right.
How are we doing against those intentions?
And if you're doing well, then celebrate the win.
If it's not going well, or if it's not heading in the direction of those intentions, then
that's an opportunity to pivot and recalibrate and reset your intentions and get back on
track.
We covered a lot in there.
To summarize it, we had seven things.
We want to make sure we're clear on what we want from the conversation.
(26:53):
We want to be intentional about our mindset.
We want to have a game plan going in, set the stage for the conversation, make sure
that the other person feels heard and respected during the conversation, drill down on values,
index on what you value and what they value, and then be gracious and grateful throughout
the conversation.
If you do decide to take this on, I think it's worthwhile.
(27:16):
I think it's important and the world needs more of this kind of conversation.
Absolutely.
So hats off to you.
It's good work.
It's not easy, but it's worth doing and good on you.
As always, we hope this was useful.
Thanks for tuning in.
We'll see you next time.
I'm really curious how it is that an otherwise smart person could have this dumb view of
(00:03):
things.
Can you help me understand that, Patrick?
Welcome to Making Yourself Clear, where we explore topics we find interesting on the
overall theme of clarity of thought and communication.
I'm Chris.
I'm Patrick.
And today we're going to explore how to keep friends and influence people.
(00:25):
And what we mean by that is referring to this phenomenon of wanting to have a conversation
with somebody in your circle, maybe it's a family member or a friend or a colleague,
who has a strongly held opinion or view on something that's very different from yours
and where there's some emotional charge to it.
Often this will be some opinion someone else holds that you might find upsetting, or you
(00:46):
might have an opinion or a view on a topic and they find it upsetting.
And there's something compelling you to try to talk this through with that person.
Yeah, we're seeing quite a bit of that now.
There's been some really tense elections.
We're seeing it especially in the political sphere where we might have a disagreement
of opinion with a person who we otherwise care about and it makes it difficult to potentially
(01:10):
keep them in our lives.
We're seeing a lot of people getting cut out of other people's lives because of that difference
of opinion.
And so really we wanted to just unpack ways in which that we can have those kinds of conversations
and not have it blow up relationships.
Absolutely.
The world is becoming more and more polarized and people are getting more and more separate.
(01:32):
And if there's anything we can do to help reduce that and help bring people back together
to have these kinds of conversations in ways that are productive, then we would love to
do that.
So I think the first and most important step here, if you're thinking about a conversation
like this, is to really get clear on why you want to do it in the first place.
(01:53):
Yeah.
So why do I want to have this conversation with a person?
As we alluded to, it possibly is because you care about the person, you want them in your
life, you want to keep them around.
So that's going to take some preparation.
That's going to take some skill, some emotional regulation, some patience as well.
And there's possibly a little bit of risk involved.
(02:15):
There is.
There are no guarantees.
No matter how skillfully you navigate the conversation and how clear your mind is going
into it, we can never control how someone else reacts.
So there is some risk that the conversation or the other person has a negative reaction
and that it blows up.
So that's why it's important to get clear on why you want to do it.
And that's worth double clicking on because we often have multiple motives for doing the
(02:39):
things that we do.
And I would say some of those motivations would be what I would call above the line,
meaning coming from a higher part of ourselves.
You'd recognize these right away.
If you're concerned about a difference of opinion causing a rift in a relationship and
the relationship matters and you want to mend it, well, that's, I'd say, a good reason.
(03:01):
Or if you're wanting to broaden your perspective and actually learn something from people who
view a situation differently, these are all good reasons.
There can also be below the line kinds of reasons.
There can be some shadow stuff for sure.
If you want to dominate a conversation or if you just want to be right in the conversation,
(03:22):
those might not be good reasons to have this particular conversation.
And here's where it's important to be honest with yourself because we like to whitewash
our intentions and we'll convince ourselves that we have nothing but the highest intentions.
But a lot of these shadowy things can sneak in.
And if you find yourself flipping back and forth between higher and lower intentions
(03:43):
in the conversation, that becomes evident.
You may start off with good intent, but then somebody says something that triggers you,
and now you're all about being right and showing them how wrong they are.
And that's something to watch for.
But we'll get into the how-to later.
Going in, just make sure it's worth it.
Make sure that your reasons for wanting to have the conversation and the potential benefits
justify the effort and the risk because these things are hard.
(04:04):
Yeah.
So the first thing you want to do after you've come up with a reason as to why you want to
have the conversation, why is this important, you want to be intentional about your mindset.
So how am I going to be throughout this conversation and what do I want to ground myself in?
What's that context that I'm going to keep coming back to?
Because if this is something that's important to you and there's a huge difference of opinion
(04:27):
and it's a person you care about, there's going to be some emotional triggers.
You're probably going to stand to get dysregulated at one point or another.
So what is it that I'm coming back to?
What's my true north here?
So a big part of that is choose a mindset.
So dialogue versus debate, cooperation versus picking a battle, perspectives and values
(04:47):
versus positioning.
Those are some different contexts that we might want to set and dive into a little bit
here.
Yeah.
Really, really good points.
And often even in the language we use to describe a conversation, we sometimes use the metaphors
of war, right?
Like you're staking out a position and then defending it or you're attacking the other
person's argument.
And baked into the language we use is this battle sort of metaphor.
(05:09):
And that affects how we view these things.
So if you consciously override some of that and say, okay, I don't want this to be a battle.
I want it to be cooperative.
I want it to be you and me exploring an issue instead of you versus me.
Right.
Yeah.
So it's a dialogue.
It's not a debate.
I'm not coming in with these are my points and I need to prove them.
It's more about, okay, let's have a conversation and we know that there's probably going to
(05:33):
be some differences of opinion.
Yeah.
And think in terms of perspective rather than position.
So when you have a position, it has this feeling of rigidity to it and like it's a static thing
that you're not likely to be uprooted from.
Whereas if it's a perspective or a vantage point, instead of saying this is my position
and I'm defending it, it's, hey, come over here and like take a look at the view from
(05:57):
this part of the hill.
Maybe it looks a little differently from how you see it.
And let me come over there and try to look down into the valley from where you stand
and see what I might see differently.
Right.
I love that.
That's a great way to think about it.
So instead of I'm standing here, you're standing there.
It's I'm looking from here and you're looking from there.
Exactly.
And let's see if we can get a different vantage point.
(06:17):
Yeah.
Another one to keep in mind is just assume positive intent.
If a person has a strongly held view on something, it's not likely that they hold that view in
order to piss you off.
There's something other than that to it and they're not trying to be evil or ignorant
or insert whatever denigrating adjective you want.
(06:38):
It's probably not that.
Yeah.
No one sets out and says, you know what I'm going to do today?
I'm going to be a bigot or very few people at some day.
But like presumably the person you're spending all this effort trying to have this conversation
with is not someone who you'd put in that category.
Yeah.
If they're worth having the conversation with, then they are likely not falling into
that camp.
One would hope.
So that's one is assume positive intent and also look for connection over victory.
(07:03):
Right?
We often feel like a conversation or these sorts of debates are something we're trying
to win.
And if both sides are trying to win, then it goes very predictably.
Both sides will leave feeling victorious and having less respect and less affinity for
and connection with the other person.
So index on connection as well as what you're talking about.
(07:25):
But like try to bring yourself back to connection if you find yourself drifting into an adversarial
stance.
Right.
So drifting into an adversarial stance can spark based on the reaction that we have to
something that somebody says.
So you might want to position yourself in a space where your mindset is I'm going to
respond to things that somebody says rather than react to something that somebody says.
(07:49):
Reaction, you know, reactivity is, it can be violent.
It can be sort of a snap into that emotional state.
Right.
And that's not to say that your emotions are not valid.
But if you're coming from an emotional place, it can be difficult to respond in a way that
furthers the dialogue.
Yeah, I think that's a really good point.
(08:10):
And the way I like to think of the difference between a response and a reaction is that
a reaction is automatic.
It's a thing that it's almost like it happens to us.
Right.
Whereas a response is something we consciously choose.
And so if you notice yourself on autopilot and just kind of thrown around by your own
emotions, you're likely in a reactive state rather than responsive one.
And you want to notice that and do what you need to do to self-regulate emotionally.
(08:35):
Maybe it's pause, take a deep breath, and just get yourself back into a more thoughtful
state where you can actually respond with your prefrontal cortex rather than reacting
from the amygdala.
That's definitely one that hooks me.
That's one of the only one that hasn't happened to anybody else.
I'm the only one with that chink in my arm.
Exactly.
Okay.
(08:56):
So what we talked about was assuming positive intent and a big part of that is if you go
in thinking this person is bigot, this person has the wrong state of mind, if we make negative
assumptions about the person that we're going to have this conversation with, but you also
want to make a concerted effort not to attack character.
And body language is a big part of that too.
(09:16):
So if we're rolling our eyes when somebody says something, they're going to pick up on
that and that's going to match up.
Sarcasm, snark, all of these things.
What they convey is contempt, which is like really looking down on someone else and viewing
them as less than.
I'm guilty of this way more often than I'd like to admit.
I get super judgy and it's like this contempt, disdain, high and mighty righteousness thing
(09:41):
that I can get into if I'm angry.
The other thing too, and one way that this can sneak in, because you may not come into
the conversation assuming that this person has some character flaw, but what you might
have whether you know it or not is a belief like, I can't imagine how somebody could hold
that viewpoint and not be racist, bigoted, whatever, too woke, pick your favorite thing.
(10:07):
And that's when you walk in with that belief, you're kind of setting yourself up to make
negative assumptions about the person and your curiosity has shut down.
Yeah.
And then you're just going to poison the conversation.
I mean, you're going to ratchet up the tension, you're going to poison the conversation and
you're really not going to walk away with anything.
I like what you said just there, curiosity.
So curiosity is another thing that as another tool that you can put in your tool belt and
(10:31):
be curious.
Why is it that this resonates with you, this particular political candidate or this particular
point of view?
What about this is compelling for you?
The conversation will probably go a lot smoother too.
Yeah, curiosity is much, much better than judgment and one will kind of displace the
other.
When you're in a judgmental state, it has this feeling of certainty to it and certainty
(10:55):
is the antithesis of curiosity.
And vice versa.
If you can bring genuine curiosity back into your intentions, that'll push the judgment
out of the way.
And where this can be tricky is if your initial reaction to someone else's position is to
feel strongly and negatively emotionally about it, it can be a big ask to bring curiosity.
(11:20):
But one thing that can be helpful is remember that you can be curious about why someone
else feels a certain way and that's not at all the same as agreeing with their position.
You're not being asked to submit to or agree to anything.
You're just trying to understand how they see the world.
Yeah.
And I like to use a genuine curiosity because I can come in and I can act curious from a
(11:40):
place of judgment and say like, why is it that you think that this bigoted view is the
right way to be?
That's not going to get me.
Yeah.
I'm really curious how it is that an otherwise smart person could have this dumb view of
things.
Right.
Can you help me understand that, Patrick?
Yeah.
Yeah.
Not that kind of curiosity.
No, that's not going to get you anywhere.
It'll get you somewhere, but you may not like it.
(12:01):
If the point is maintaining this relationship and getting through the murkies, because we're
going to have that.
We're going to brush up against things in people that we don't love.
And so it's about, how do I salvage the relationship?
How do I make sure that I don't throw the baby out with the bath water?
(12:21):
So another piece that we want to focus on is having a game plan.
Yeah.
And that's a really good point.
So high stakes conversations of any sort, just like anything that matters to you, you
want to think about in advance.
You want to plan it out.
You might even want to get someone like a friend or a coach or someone who's neutral
and isn't part of the conversation and role play it in advance.
(12:42):
That allows you to practice how you're going to cue up the conversation.
That's a really valuable tool.
Yeah, that's great.
We actually, we have a mutual friend who calls it a prevent.
A prevent.
Yes.
He gets to vent his point of view and how he feels about the person in the conversation
and get all that judgy stuff out of the way.
And then he's preventing that from coming into the actual conversation when it happens.
(13:04):
Shout out to our friend Andrew for that one.
So back to the game plan.
So what does a game plan look like?
You want to pick a suitable time and place for when you're going to have this conversation.
Kids learn pretty early to be on the lookout for when mom and dad are in a good mood versus
a bad mood.
Right.
And if they're smart, they wait till they're in a good mood before they ask for things.
Right.
So it's something like that.
(13:25):
Set yourself up for success.
So make sure there's adequate time to have the conversation.
Pick a suitable place.
Make sure you are in a conducive emotional state to having this go well.
So what does that mean?
It means calm, centered, balanced, low in reactivity.
I mean, we saw a lot of tough conversations taking place the day after the election.
(13:48):
Right.
That's probably not the time or place to do that.
When I mean, emotions are super high then.
Your candidate won, your candidate lost.
You're probably going through a lot.
Maybe you need to take.
Take a beat.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Whatever it is before you have that conversation with the person who is celebrating this victory
that feels like an absolute.
A loss to you.
(14:09):
Yeah.
Yeah.
And also if you have certain practices that you know are useful to help you get into a
conducive state, like if you meditate, you might want to meditate before having this
conversation.
Great point.
Do some breathing exercises, a bit of yoga, a nice workout.
Like whatever sets you up to be at your best for a conversation like this.
(14:29):
Yeah.
One of the things that I'm curious about Chris is what do I do if things go sideways on me?
One aspect of having a game plan going in is recognizing, okay, you've got a clear intention,
you're in a good state, the conditions are as good as they're going to be, and that's
not a guarantee.
So there are a lot of ways the conversation might go sideways.
(14:50):
And most of those ways are probably things you've experienced before and might be somewhat
foreseeable or predictable.
Right?
So somebody starts to adopt a certain tone of voice, things get tense.
You can feel yourself getting activated.
Actually sit down and think about, okay, if it goes sideways in this particular way, here's
what I'm going to do about it.
Here's what I'm going to say.
(15:12):
If it starts to escalate beyond a certain point, what will you do?
Will you pause the conversation and suggest you circle back to it later?
And that way you're not caught thinking on your feet and relying on impulsive decisions
in the moment.
You've got a consciously chosen game plan.
Soldiers do this in the military, all of their training and the exercises they run are so
that they don't have to figure out what to do while being shot at.
(15:32):
They've trained it and they've ran scenarios that are similar over and over and over again.
So they've got that muscle motor memory for what's going to work as opposed to just panicking
and having to think on the fly.
Right.
So it's what we said earlier, right?
It comes back to that response versus reaction.
If I feel myself reacting, I'm going to take a beat.
And there's the, what we call pause and pivot technique.
So I'm going to take a moment.
I'm just going to pause here and maybe we pivot for the conversation.
(15:56):
Maybe this is not the right time to have, maybe I thought it was and it's no longer
the right time to have the conversation.
So hey, things are getting heated right now.
Why don't we circle back to this?
Can we just take a minute and get out of the, the, the Merck of, of that, that tough conversation?
Yeah.
And if it's escalating to a point where you need to pause the conversation, that's definitely
one way to pivot.
(16:16):
But if you, if you're on your game and you catch it before it gets to that point, you
can sense things are starting to, things are starting to heat up, but they haven't yet,
it's still salvageable.
There's still room to bring this back.
And you can pause and say, Hey, can we take a step back and look at what's most important
here?
Because people often get lost in the weeds.
And if you zoom out to a 10,000 foot view and say, okay, what are we really trying to
(16:38):
accomplish?
What's the goal here?
And reorient yourself towards that or reorient yourself towards what is, what are some things
we value in common here?
Remind yourself that you're not enemies.
You are your collaborators in this exploratory dialogue.
And that comes back to the very first thing we said, get clear on why you want to have
this conversation.
What's your context?
(16:58):
Right?
Well, I want to salvage this friendship.
I want to understand where this person's coming from.
Whatever your why is.
And so that, yeah, coming back to that will really help.
What's the shared goal here?
So in terms of navigating the conversation itself, we've talked about, first of all,
getting clear on why you want to do it.
Then we talked about intentionally choosing a mindset for going in, coming up with a game
(17:21):
plan, meaning when, where, how you're going to get into a good emotional state, how you
will navigate bumps in the road during the conversation.
So we've covered a lot of ground so far.
Next piece is how do you actually do it?
Yeah.
So first of all, setting a time and place is going to be crucial.
That's going to involve a small conversation with the person.
(17:42):
Hey, would it be okay if we had a conversation, you know, tomorrow, later today, next week?
I'd really like to talk to you.
And then stating your intentions upfront, you know, listen, this, this, whatever it
is, this, this election, or maybe it's a personal thing.
Maybe it's an interpersonal conversation.
Maybe it has nothing to do with a larger, with politics.
(18:03):
People play about things that have other than politics.
Is that a thing anymore?
Yeah.
So maybe this is in your relationship with your, with your partner, your spouse that,
you know, I really need to talk to you about this specific thing.
Could we pick a time and place to actually talk about it?
So an open invitation to the person into the conversation, get their consent to participate.
(18:26):
This one is super important.
If you just bring it on somebody and you ambush them into the conversation, then they're in
the position of being in that reactive state.
Because at the beginning of this chat, we talked about if somebody just brings something
on you, you may not be ready for it.
That's right.
Don't put the other person in that position because you're setting, you're setting the
two of you up to fail.
Absolutely.
(18:47):
So a few things happen when you, when you state the intention upfront and that includes,
okay, I'd like to have a conversation with you about X.
My intention is I really want to come to understand your position better.
And I know this has been a source of friction for us in the past.
I'm hoping we can come to more of a shared understanding because I value our relationship
and I don't want this to be in between us.
(19:09):
So that's now you've stated that your intention is something positive that they can likely
align behind as opposed to, Hey, I want to show you what kind of a dummy you are.
And I want you to agree that I'm right.
And you're an idiot.
There you go.
Because the people might assume that when you come at them with something that's counter
to their position.
So state your intention upfront and then invite them in.
And that might look just can be simple as, Hey, I'd really like to have this conversation.
(19:33):
Here's what I would like to get out of it.
Are you open to that?
And it's now a good time.
Right.
And that does a few things.
When you spring something on somebody unannounced, it's an imposition on them.
You're coming at them with your intention and you're presupposing that they will now
have to comply.
Like here's what's happening.
Deal with it.
Right.
And that can feel rather dominating and forceful.
(19:53):
And now they're at the effect of something.
They're kind of a victim of this thing you're doing to them.
Whereas if you say, Hey, like this matters.
I think it's important.
Are you, are you open to exploring this with me?
Most people will say yes, because well, for a few reasons, most people want to see themselves
as the kind of person who would engage in that kind of conversation.
And by agreeing to it, now they've kind of, they've made a commitment to actually be receptive
(20:18):
to having that conversation with you.
And then this consistency principle kicks in where we want to be consistent with what
we've just said about ourselves.
And then the other piece is by getting them to opt in, you're showing some deference
and giving them agency to choose their own adventure.
They're choosing to participate in the conversation now, as opposed to having it happen to them.
(20:39):
So by, by letting them choose, giving them some agency, it really, it helps to just put
them in a position where they're not on the back foot and they're not going to have to
be reactive and they're not going to have to be defensive.
And you can actually get on with having a constructive conversation and hopefully coming
to a point where at the very least you understand one another a little better.
Yeah.
(21:00):
You're going to have much better odds talking to someone who feels empowered, respected,
validated and invited to participate.
Right.
And who feels kind of ambushed or attacked with a bunch of judgment.
So then what are some tools that we can use?
What are some techniques that we can use to make sure that we are doing our best to make
that person feel heard, feel respected, and, and as though this was not just merely, you
(21:24):
know, an attack on their position.
First of all, the biggest thing is listening, right?
If I'm trying to understand your position on something, I need to let you explain to
me why you hold that belief.
And that, again, having you explain something to me doesn't mean that I agree with you.
It doesn't mean that I'm going to change my point of view.
(21:45):
But if the object here is to understand, then I've got to listen.
Yeah.
And we're going to do, I'm sure we'll do a whole other episode on different levels of
listening and unpacking that in greater detail.
But the quick and dirty version would be, there's listening in order to come up with
your really witty, smart response that is the gotcha moment.
(22:07):
That's not what we're talking about.
No, we're talking about actually listening for the purpose of two purposes.
One is really deeply understanding where the person's coming from.
And the second one, which is just as important, maybe more so is having them feel understood.
And those are different things.
You can understand someone and they may or may not know that they may or may not feel
it.
(22:28):
Right.
And what's really important here is that the other person feels understood because that's
disarming.
That's going to bring down the tension.
So you should be able to, at a bare minimum, be able to mirror back whatever that person
has said to you.
And that's going to display that you actually got the content.
Right.
If I'm just sitting here and I've got my point in my head, I'm just waiting for you to stop
(22:49):
talking so that I can jump in and say whatever smart thing that I've been sitting on.
I'm really not listening at that point.
I'm just waiting.
I'm waiting your turn.
Yeah.
So I can interrupt you.
I can wait for you to shut up or I can actually sit down and I can absorb what it is you're
saying and then be able to mirror it back.
Okay.
I hear what you're saying.
I think that this is it and check in.
(23:11):
Right.
Did I get that clear?
Are we operating from the same point where we both understand what this is and what this
means?
There's something else too, which is people's opinions are rarely changed on the basis of
facts and arguments.
As much as we'd like to think that that's how we work, it tends not to be.
And this is where something like the Socratic method comes in so handy.
(23:34):
This is they call it Socratic after Socrates.
And really what he did was he would ask a lot of questions.
And so back to that curiosity thing.
And by asking questions, why is it you feel that way or explain to me how you got there,
it's a much more effective way to understand somebody, but also to persuade them.
So if somebody is espousing a particular position and you know that there's something that they
(23:57):
value that seems to you to maybe be in contrast with that, you can say, okay, so what I'm
hearing is this is how you feel about that issue.
I'm curious about something though, because I know you as someone who values X and I'm
having trouble reconciling those two.
Can you explain to me how you square that circle?
And then listen.
And this isn't, this is not a trap.
This is not for a gotcha.
You're not cross examining them.
(24:17):
You're actually listening with curiosity.
And one of two things can happen and sometimes both.
One at minimum, you'll come to understand them better.
And two, people often soften their positions when faced with these questions like that.
That's why the Socratic method is so powerful.
By being gentle and curious, you may lead them towards some of their own cognitive dissonance.
And when they encounter that, the impulse that they'll have to reconcile that may cause
(24:42):
them to loosen up on some of their more tightly held beliefs and actually become more flexible.
Well, and I think that's something that is important to make a point of.
Just because I have a deeply held belief doesn't mean I thought about it for a really long
time.
I would hope that that's the case, but that's not necessarily true.
Just because I feel some very strong way about something doesn't mean that I've sat down
(25:06):
and I've, I've checked all the angles and done the math.
So exactly having conversations like this.
Again, if you're willing to put in the time and you're willing to come from a place where
you're, you're clean and you don't have, you know, a nefarious intentions or to make somebody
wrong, you may find that the root of the whole thing, which is again, connection, what do
(25:28):
we value together?
All of that sort of stuff.
Yeah.
I think two last points.
One, we've sort of touched on earlier, but it might be worth making explicit.
Index on what they value.
People may have a strongly held belief or even a position on something.
See if you can get past the position into the value that underlies it, because you're
(25:48):
more likely to find alignment around values rather than in the details of a particular
view.
Right.
And then the last thing is be gracious and grateful along the way.
Acknowledge that these conversations are hard and check in with yourself periodically and
with the other person to see how you're doing against your stated intentions.
Right.
So at the beginning of the conversation, you said, Hey, my goals for this conversation
are I'd like to understand you better.
(26:10):
I want us to, with curiosity, come to understand each other's positions better and perspectives
better rather than positions, and I want this to make us feel closer rather than farther
apart.
Right.
For example, partway through the conversation and maybe periodically as you go, check in,
Hey, just let's zoom out and say, we set out to achieve the following goals here.
How are we doing?
(26:31):
Yeah.
Right.
How are we doing against those intentions?
And if you're doing well, then celebrate the win.
If it's not going well, or if it's not heading in the direction of those intentions, then
that's an opportunity to pivot and recalibrate and reset your intentions and get back on
track.
We covered a lot in there.
To summarize it, we had seven things.
We want to make sure we're clear on what we want from the conversation.
(26:53):
We want to be intentional about our mindset.
We want to have a game plan going in, set the stage for the conversation, make sure
that the other person feels heard and respected during the conversation, drill down on values,
index on what you value and what they value, and then be gracious and grateful throughout
the conversation.
If you do decide to take this on, I think it's worthwhile.
(27:16):
I think it's important and the world needs more of this kind of conversation.
Absolutely.
So hats off to you.
It's good work.
It's not easy, but it's worth doing and good on you.
As always, we hope this was useful.
Thanks for tuning in.
We'll see you next time.
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