What if we've been getting anxiety all wrong? Today, we sit down with Molly Birney, a former therapist turned coach, who takes us on a journey through her eclectic career and shares profound insights on embracing uncomfortable emotions. Molly's transition from choral conductor to clinical psychologist to coach illuminates the freedom she discovered in coaching, which empowers her to bring her authentic self into her work. We discuss the importance of confronting discomfort directly and Molly's candid response to a client wanting to eradicate anxiety, emphasizing the necessity of coexistence with challenging emotions.
Capitalism often shapes our identities and creates a dependency on marketed solutions for our problems. Together with Molly, we unpack this intricate relationship and explore how labels can both define and limit us. By examining systems of dysfunction, whether familial, societal, or personal, we highlight the importance of self-love and understanding in moments of pain. Through direct yet loving communication, we discuss the pathway to healthier relationships and personal growth, using examples like Alcoholics Anonymous to illustrate the need for embracing all parts of ourselves, including the uncomfortable ones.
Mindfulness and meditation emerge as powerful tools for accepting anxiety, as we explore the practice of observing thoughts and emotions without rushing to fix them. Molly shares her approach to fostering curiosity and awareness, promoting a healthier relationship with our feelings. We also dive into personal growth and ego awareness, inspired by Ram Dass’s philosophy. Molly’s upcoming offerings, including her weekly donation-based sessions and her six-week coaching group, "The Living Room," promise further avenues for transformative support and connection. Tune in to discover how acknowledging anxiety and letting go of control can lead to more authentic self-compassion and growth.
Get connected with Molly Birney
Website: molliebirney.com
Instagram: molliebirney
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
How many times, while sitting in the grips of our
anxiety, have we uttered thewords I hate this, I wish it
would just go away.
Now, as we sit and we thinkabout the words we're saying,
we're actually trying to get ridof a part of ourself this
anxiety, this sadness, thedepression.
(00:21):
Now I understand it might becompletely uncomfortable to sit
with, but the deeper questionwhen we're saying such words as
I hate this or I want it to goaway, is how do we get rid of a
part of ourself?
Would we want to get rid ofthat part of ourself, and what
are the possibilities that thatpart of ourself is actually here
(00:43):
to reveal, possibilities thatthat part of ourself is actually
here to reveal, to light a pathon a way to heal?
In today's episode, I sit withformer therapist turned coach,
molly Burney as we explore thisdeeper question, as why would we
want to, and is that the pathto freedom, or is learning how
(01:05):
to be with it the way toliberation?
Speaker 3 (01:12):
Welcome to man Uncaved.
My name is Shane Coyle.
Welcome back, welcome back.
I am sitting today with MollyBurney, former therapist turned
coach.
So I think the question I wantto start with is usually it's
the other way, right.
People go from maybe a coach Imean I would.
I would gather they go fromsome type of coach to become a
(01:33):
therapist.
It seems like and I guess, inour understanding of how this
goes, but you went the other way, so I don't know if there is a
right way.
So let's just put that out,sure, but kind of give a
snapshot of what was thatdecision behind your becoming a
coach.
Speaker 2 (01:50):
Yeah, a lot of pieces to this.
First of all is that I hadworked with a coach since I was
20.
My coach got me out of my firstcareer, which was choral
conducting, of all things.
I was finishing a master's inchoral conducting right before I
got the master's in clinicalpsych and my coach was telling
me are you done pretending to dowhatever this is, you need to
(02:10):
be coaching.
And I had said to his face,coaching has no credibility.
I said this to my coach this isnot a credible field.
I think I was being sort oftongue in cheek.
But that's fine for you, butfor me I need to do something
serious with my life.
And he sort of smirked at thatand he said look, you should be
working in human behavior.
And so I went and got themaster's in clinical psych and
(02:32):
after a few years, uh, with thatunder my belt, he said are you
done pretending to be atherapist?
You ready to have theconversation you want to have?
And I had to look at the work Iwas doing as a therapist and
watched how often I was tuggingmy reins or how often my client
was asking a follow-up questionthat I wanted to answer a little
bit more cavalierly and withmore directiveness, and how
(02:55):
often I was biting my tongue andlook, there are plenty of
therapists who coach and keeptheir license For me.
I had so much noise of like, ohno, if I say that, is that
clinically inappropriate, wouldthis be something a coach says
or what a therapist says?
I was so wrapped up in my noisethat it robbed me of being
(03:18):
present with my client and Ifinally surrendered to my coach.
I said, fine, yes, train me.
Let's go the apprentice model,let's do this Because I was
clear how much I was.
It was in my own internalconflict of like, can I say this
?
I want to speak the way I wantto speak, and so this was just
about freeing me up to integrateall parts of myself.
I will say that there areplenty of clients that I work
with and it might look quitesimilar to therapy, but I get to
(03:41):
bring a lot more of myself andmy I don't know my doggedness,
my playfulness, to theconversation.
So in that sense it's quitedifferent.
Speaker 3 (03:49):
Yeah, I love that and I think that it rings true for
the straight talk therapy thatyou or the coaching that you do
which I love it because I thinkwe're in agreeance or some type
of conscious shock to the system.
That needs to happen, andsometimes we need to hit it
direct and we need to hit it rawand and we can move in the
discomforts from that place, asopposed to the soft and gentle
(04:10):
staying in some type ofparameters, whether that's
parameters of illusion,parameters, or we're making the
parameters, or whatever it isRight.
There's definitely a risktaking into this work.
I think we need to push thelines a little bit sometimes.
Speaker 2 (04:23):
Yeah, yeah, and that certainly allows me the forum to
do that without the noise, andthat doesn't mean I'm not still
discovering parameters.
I mean one of the things that Igot to see in putting up this
reel that we're going to talkabout today was like oh, there
are some elements of this thatare too in your face, that are
quite provocative, which youknow.
(04:43):
I think that's playful.
I also my social media tooksome my person took some
liberties with the Zoom, so Ithink all that was a little bit
more aggressive, but it allowsfor just a more authentic
presentation of the work for me.
So that's why I dig the titleno-transcript.
Speaker 3 (05:31):
You know, set the stage a little bit around that.
Speaker 2 (05:34):
Yeah, well, the post specifically was about a
consultation that I'd hadrecently with a client who was
asking you know, I'll ask in aconsultation with a prospective
client how can I be of service?
What are you looking to do?
How would you know if this workwas effective?
And she said, well, my anxietywould be gone.
And I had said sort ofplayfully well, I need you to
(05:55):
know, I want to shoot youstraight I have no ability to
get rid of your anxiety and Idon't know that there's anyone
out there who can.
She was shocked.
You know I'm saying this againout there who can?
She was shocked.
I'm saying this again sort oftongue-in-cheek because of
course, the work that I'm doingis of help to the anxiety.
I wouldn't continue to getclients if I'm not helping you
work with the anxiety andexperience relief around it.
(06:15):
But for her, the idea that itwould be extinguished entirely
if our work was successful.
It's a theme I hear sometimes,sometimes that clients have an
expectation that they are goingto be able to amputate
successfully some part ofthemselves and that will allow
them to move forward when I canrewrite my story or cut off from
(06:36):
my trauma or when I can reallywash my hands of that nasty
anxiety or that shame, then Ican move forward with my life.
And I think this is a reallycommon misconception.
We can get into the reasons whywe think that way, but suffice
to say I was responding withlike, look, the game is about
making a relationship with ouranxiety so you can have it
(06:59):
rather than it has you.
But the idea that you'resupposed to be able to get rid
of this puts us in combat, intrue conflict with ourselves and
convinced that some part of usshouldn't be there.
So you know, then you have tolive at war with yourself if
you're striving to get rid of it.
And the whole game is about howdo we live in more peace, how
do we live in more freedom?
(07:20):
So anyway, that's the post,that's the gist of the post.
Speaker 3 (07:25):
Yeah, well, definitely in an agreeance with
you and as I was listening toyour post and I don't know if
you know, and maybe you doactually you know Rolo May was
talking about this to themeanings of anxiety,
particularly with anxiety andthe meanings to find out.
It could lead to sense ofcreativity, it could lead, you
know.
So he looks at it from a verywide lens and a very narrow way
(07:47):
of I need to get rid of this.
And and and again, I am analliance with you because I
don't know how do you get rid ofthese things, nor do I, nor do
particularly I want to, becausethere's such learning, there's
such messaging behind that, andI think there's this let me just
get over these things, let meget over this, Let me and I
think there's this let me justget over these things, let me
get over this, let me move mytrauma, let me move these things
(08:08):
out of the way.
And I'm just like, well, whydon't we learn and understand
the messaging?
And it's kind of bringing thatto your forefront.
Speaker 2 (08:13):
Sorry, go ahead.
Yes, no, no, I was justspeaking to like.
I think that's a reallyadvanced and or fear or anything
we're looking to get rid of.
We can't be curious aboutanything we're trying to banish.
Speaker 1 (08:32):
Right.
Speaker 2 (08:33):
And the game here is curiosity, like, well, what does
my fear have to tell me andwhat is my anxiety trying to
communicate?
And what else is on the heelsof this boredom or that shame or
whatever it is that's showingup?
And so much of this work?
I don't care if it's coachingor therapy or fucking plant
medicine, lots of directions youcan go in here, but you have to
be curious about whatever it isthat you're studying.
(08:53):
And if you're studying yourthoughts, let's get curious
about them.
If you're studying your fear,anxiety or shame, curiosity is
it.
Again, as soon as we're tryingto get rid of it, there is no
room for that curiosity.
There's this thing I'll talkabout sometimes is that I
playfully call it the step zeroparadox, meaning before you
actually start doing the work,here's the zero step, which is
(09:17):
anything you're trying to getrid of.
You know I'm trying to stoplying or stop this addiction or
stop this thing.
We first have to include it, wefirst have to be in embracing
it and in relationship with itso that we can do the work of
changing our relationship to it,because that's not possible if
amputation is the only goal here, right, and I, yeah, and I'm
(09:39):
agreeance I think thedismemberment of those is really
the root of it anyway, is likewe've been trying to dismember,
or it became dismembered insteadof learning from it.
Speaker 3 (09:47):
You know, and and it's, it's so interesting and
you did in the post and I wantto kind of talk about that too
is well, first of all, there wasa lot of mixed, mixed feedback,
which is fine, that's okay and,again, I love the allowance of
people having their experienceand it's not for us to tell them
what their experience is, it'sfor us to sit in it and I think
that sense of curiosity givesthem the invitation to challenge
(10:11):
it.
What about what I'm saying isevoking something and what about
that is there with a sense ofcuriosity.
So I do love that.
You did bring up something too,and it wasn't particularly at
this individual, so we have tomake this clear.
I think, yeah, yeah, there wassome feedback.
It was like why are you talkingabout this, about your client?
I was like, but that's not whatI heard, you know, it was like
(10:31):
there is a system that kind ofcan create these conditionings
of let's get rid of, let's getrid of, and so maybe we can talk
about that and and and and, theanger towards some of that
stuff or the frustrations, yeahyeah, I think anger is valid and
this is some of the pushback Igot.
Speaker 2 (10:51):
It's like wait, why would you be angry at a client?
Absolutely not angry at theclient.
I'm angry at the system thatperpetuated this misconception
for her.
Speaker 1 (10:59):
Right.
Speaker 2 (11:01):
And, yeah, instagram.
Of course I'm going to be alittle provocative and start the
real, like I'm fucking madabout this, um, but you know, if
anyone is watching that andbananas enough to think that I
would speak to a client that way, I think you might be missing
the point of Instagram.
But that's okay.
That's okay If you're, ifyou're, if you're seeing it that
way, you're probably not, uh,my client.
(11:21):
Let's be clear.
Um, but yeah, that there was.
There was a lot of uh, a lot ofpushback and, and specifically
from people with um reportedhaving acute anxiety and complex
PTSD anxiety, things like that,saying no, no, no, I can't
accept this as a part of myself,and how dare you suggest that I
do?
And I gotta say I, I, um, Itend to have a pretty peaceful
(11:45):
approach to this, so I wassurprised that, even with how
provocative and the video was alot of zooms and so it is um, I
was surprised to get that kindof response and it made me
really, really interested in um,uh.
You know, my, my assumption ishow identified you have to be
with your anxiety, uh, and theidea of getting rid of it and
being victimized by it too, thatthe idea of including it is
(12:07):
offensive.
That's my first interpretation,maybe no being on the bones to
that um, but I think it's reallyinteresting taking a look at
why that is such a dangerousidea to folks.
Um, and I think it's because itreally is in conflict with
everything our culture, yes, yes.
(12:30):
I don't know about you, but Imean, I grew up in the
capitalist soup, right.
Speaker 1 (12:35):
Yeah, of course.
Speaker 2 (12:36):
We get a lot of information about how to be
successful, and not beinganxious is part of how to be
successful, by the way, Icertainly got that message
really clearly.
And even though our culture hasincluded anxiety to some degree
it's okay to talk about.
You know, I have a diet, I havesocial anxiety or I have a
diagnosis of anxiety there isstill the idea that we need to
(13:00):
use the wellness industry tofigure out how to get rid of
this thing.
Therapy is going to help me getrid of it, yeah, and we.
I think also capitalism isreally committed to this idea.
You're a problem to solve youbetter figure out how to solve
that you better Let me sell youthe solution to that problem.
Let me market you the problemthat you don't actually have,
and then I'm going to sell youthe solution to that same
(13:21):
problem.
Speaker 3 (13:22):
You never have in the first place, definitely for
capitalism.
It's a great business.
Speaker 2 (13:25):
You have a problem that can never be fixed and we
have the only solution onlysolution, and I think that not
only can it be fixed, but I havethe solution for it.
Speaker 3 (13:33):
Yes, yes, absolutely, and I and I'm in total
agreeance with you, and this iswhere I think we align.
You know, when we're doing thiswork.
Obviously, there's just themicro, the macro lens to
everything, and, uh, I came uponthis thing where it was.
This gentleman was talkingabout what creates a dysfunction
in a system.
So that's going to be a familysystem.
Obviously, we ourselves are asystem, society is a system,
(13:55):
relationships are a system.
Everything is systematic.
But what creates dysfunction isthis abandonment in your pain
or abandonment in your hurt.
What creates a healthy systemis we love you in your pain.
So, if you look at that fromthe lens of a society, or even
our own self, we are a system ofcommunication within our own
(14:15):
self.
Learning to love that part ofourself or understand that part
of ourselves with a sense ofcuriosity creates a healthy
system.
But, like what you were goingback a while ago, is that, if
that is a part that we have toget rid of, we're in constant
collision with ourself.
And, believe me, you know and Iknow probably you, as me, as
(14:36):
any human being out there I haveenough going on in collision
with myself on a daily basis.
I don't need another thing tohold on to and attach to and
speaking of attachment, that isso interesting because I think
there is something we can usepeople, we, I can use these
(15:00):
labels as an identity to attachto, and we can somehow hide
behind these identities.
These are the reasons why wecannot move forward or cannot
succeed or cannot have thatrelationship, whatever is
presented in front of us, and wewill hide behind our own
excuses, without the sense ofcuriosity.
Is that true?
Speaker 2 (15:17):
Yeah, it sort of begs the question well, who would I
be then without the anxiety andthere's often fear about that
and somehow including theanxiety, even though, like the
illusion is like let me get ridof this thing and then I'll be
fine, there's often an enormousamount of anxiety about not
having anxiety.
Um that when I, when I work withclients and it starts to get
better, some of the feedbackI'll get instantly is wait, who
(15:40):
am I?
I feel disoriented.
Is this safe?
Is this okay?
I feel irresponsible.
Um, because we're so allied towho we were when we're listening
to it like it's credible, um,but yeah, we have a real
conflict about like, am Isupposed to get rid of this?
But who will I be without it?
And then I want to be allied toit.
Um, there's a lot of personalidentification with our
(16:00):
so-called pathology.
That's just part of ourhumanity.
It doesn't need to be bigger,or smaller.
Speaker 3 (16:05):
That's right.
Yeah, and that, and thatrepetitive pattern that keeps us
stuck there and just, you know,that identity kind of a
regurgitation we we attach to itis this is, this is who I am,
and this is who I am.
And it's like I don't know ifthat's necessarily true because,
right, I love that question.
It's like, well, what would bepossible if that wasn't true?
And you're not that, andbringing that from the rear view
(16:29):
to the frontal view, but justunderstanding the mechanisms of
it.
Speaker 2 (16:40):
Yeah, yeah.
Well, this parlays into abetter identity conversation.
Like whoever you think you areis immediately a limitation.
One of my favorite quotes and Iwant to be clear before I
provide this quote I grew up inAlcoholics Anonymous.
There's a lot to love aboutAlcoholics Anonymous and I love
that.
One of the things Ram Das saysis look, you don't want to end
up an alcoholic, you want to endup free.
But even with that title ofalcoholic and sobriety and all
(17:01):
of the positive things that comewith that, there's a limit to
any title we put on ourselves.
There's something quitecongested about that.
And he's not saying you need togo out and drink necessarily.
He's saying open up thatidentity, get curious about what
the identity costs you.
If you are an anxious person,there are things that are going
to cost you.
If I have to be seen in anyidentity, if I need to be seen
(17:22):
as smart right now, certainthings I cannot say for fear of
protecting that identity or forfear of risking that identity.
So true freedom is the abilityto show up using all parts of
ourselves, including our anxietyand our shame.
Speaker 3 (17:35):
For goodness sake, yeah, absolutely, and I think
that's really what was callingme with your post is just.
First of all, I just love yourstraightforward talk.
I tend to really love that.
You know, it's something that Iinspire in mine is being very
direct as possible.
I mean, obviously, withgentleness, I think we can be
direct, obviously, but the loveneeds to be felt right, the
(17:56):
connection needs to be feltunderneath that.
Speaker 2 (17:58):
If it's not present, that directiveness is abuse.
If the love isn't there, it'sjust that direction, it's
actually abuse.
Speaker 3 (18:04):
Right and I think, yeah, absolutely Good point.
And so making sure that that isclear within our relationship,
that we can allow the space tohave that direct, because you
know that it's coming from sucha loving place, and that's what
it was really.
What that post was reallycalling to me is the micro, the
macro.
(18:24):
I mean, obviously you did pointout, obviously it's
unprecedented times.
There's a lot going on in theworld.
We don't have to get into it.
That's what you were talkingabout.
We all know, we're all livingit.
However, yes, what is thisteaching us?
What is this learning?
What are we learning here inour own healing and actually I'm
a firm believer in that we haveeverything we need to actually
(18:45):
heal.
I think these are beautifulthings.
To know is that you haveeverything.
I'm not giving you anything,I'm just pointing to it.
We're just pointers.
Did you see that?
Look at that.
Did you see this?
Speaker 2 (18:57):
One of my favorite things is I'll be coaching a
client and I'm watching them nod.
I'm like, by the way, you'renodding not because I'm blowing
your mind here, I'm sayingsomething you already know
clearly.
I'm affirming what you alreadyknow, so let's ride on that
particular.
Speaker 3 (19:12):
Right, it's so.
It's so interesting Cause Iknow you know we're in the same
lines of work.
But obviously, yes, Listeningto someone talk and they're like
you know, say, if it's comingfrom the recovery and I'm like
I'm, I'm feeling stuck, I'm notcalling my sponsor.
If you're looking from therecovery, I'm not calling my
sponsor.
I'm not doing this step works,I'm not.
Did you just hear what you'rejust saying?
So what would be the solution?
You already have the solution.
(19:33):
That's right, let's just pauseand listen to what we're saying
for a second.
Did you hear what you're saying?
Oh, so call your sponsor and doyour step work, if that's the
room I'm sitting in or if theperson I'm dealing with.
So I, you know and I, and so ifthat is true, then really this
understanding more of what is myown experience and what is my
(19:55):
own process, this is exactly thestuff, and so I started this
little weekly.
Speaker 2 (20:02):
what is it?
It's like, really, my officehour and folks can come.
I'll do a little meditation andanswer some questions for folks
.
It's a.
It's a chance for people whoare not familiar with my work to
step into it a little bit, andone of the things we're doing is
just a little bit of meditationpractice at a time, and I love
this idea of can you just take alook at what's present In our
(20:25):
silence, with your eyes closed,if that's comfortable for you,
in your stillness?
What's here?
Because we're so quick to getinto.
I want to start organizing it.
I want to start labeling it.
I want to start fixing it.
I want to start clearing it out.
Can you tolerate just thelooking?
Can we tolerate just theawareness as the dimmer switch
increases and more light is shedin this room?
(20:46):
We want to start organizing andcleaning and fixing.
Speaker 1 (20:50):
Tolerate more so beautiful.
Speaker 2 (20:53):
Tolerate more and cleaning and fixing, tolerate
more, so beautiful.
Tolerate more and and not like.
Tolerate from like suffering.
But can you tolerate the peaceand the stillness before taking
action?
That's really this, the uh, thepiece that's often missing in
our ability to sit with ouranxiety, because we think,
including the anxiety, makingroom for it or whatever, that
it's going to be either allconsuming and dominating right,
or that we're going to be eitherall consuming and dominating
(21:13):
Right or that we're going tosomehow lose something in the
process.
I'm going to lose some control,and this is why our instinct
when we feel anxious, is alwaysto push against it.
Speaker 1 (21:22):
Right.
Speaker 2 (21:23):
Every time I do a workshop, I'm nervous.
Every time I do a podcast, I'musually nervous.
And at the beginning of mostworkshops I will start by saying
I need you to know I'm anxiousbecause I want to model what it
looks like to not be pushingthat away.
If I was pushing it away, Ithen have to pretend like I'm
not anxious and you don't wantto watch me pretend like I'm not
anxious.
You want to hear me coach.
So in order for me to includethat anxiety in the room and not
(21:47):
have to pretend like it's notthere, let me name it.
So you know I'm anxious, we knowI'm anxious.
Can we fucking move forward nowwe get on with it.
Speaker 1 (21:53):
Right.
Speaker 2 (21:54):
And that's being in relationship with it.
But that only comes from thatability to slow down, be mindful
and compassionate about whatI'm seeing Ah, my anxieties.
Of course it belongs here.
Wouldn't it be bizarre if I dida workshop and I wasn't anxious
?
Speaker 3 (22:10):
Absolutely.
I don't care how many workshopsyou've done right.
Can you speak more and maybewhat you're noticing too?
Because you brought up a goodpoint about the need to control
and how there's a collisionagainst that.
I guess that fear response.
Speaker 2 (22:26):
Yeah, when I talk about anxiety with my clients
and this is a coachingdefinition this is not a
clinical distinction, but Ithink of anxiety as the instinct
, the attempt to control.
Get control over something wehave no business trying to
control, whether it's the futureor the outcome or what.
You think of me trying tomicromanage something I have no
(22:46):
business trying to micromanage.
Think of me trying tomicromanage something I have no
business trying to micromanage.
And this is why our instinctwhen we're trying to work with
anxiety is get the control, asthough that's going to
extinguish the anxiety and thegame is actually can I practice
surrendering the control, whichis the most counterintuitive
thing we could possibly asksomeone in high anxiety to do?
(23:07):
I realize how absurd andoffensive that can be.
What do you mean?
Go into?
Speaker 1 (23:12):
it.
Speaker 2 (23:13):
You know, I've usually spent a decade surviving
it by not going into it.
That's why we do drugs and whywe binge and why we have
compulsive sex and why we gambleand why we do all the things we
have to do to avoid it.
What do you mean?
Go into it?
Are you insane?
Yeah, a little bit, A littlebit, To suggest some of this
counterintuitive stuff.
We have to be right.
But that is the game.
(23:33):
What happens if I orienttowards it?
And just that idea can be anoverstimulating conversation for
someone, which is why we comeback to the mindfulness.
What happens in your body whenI just present the idea of
moving towards it.
Notice all the tension that,like we haven't even done
anything and your shoulders areup around your ears and there's
(23:56):
survival is in play.
So we want to get curious aboutthese phenomenons, because you
wouldn't choose to pay the coachand then resist everything the
coach is suggesting.
Speaker 1 (24:06):
Right.
Speaker 2 (24:07):
You wouldn't put that on your to-do list.
Only a crazy person would do itthat way, and you're not crazy.
So, like speaking to the pieceof them that wants to be there
and is hungry for a differentexperience, acknowledging the
fear about including the anxietyand holding space for that
whole dance.
I don't even know if I'manswering your question.
I'm sort of just riffing here,forgive me.
Speaker 3 (24:26):
No, I think you did.
I mean, I connect to it againbecause I love the wide lens of
understanding this and, yeah, Idefinitely agree with you on
this way of approaching it froma different way and a different
lens and connecting to it to itum, well, what we're talking
(24:51):
about is a sense of morecuriosity, um, a sense of yeah,
I think it pushes up againstsurvival, just as a species.
if I'm not in control, I'm goingto die, I'm going to lose
validation, I'm going to loselove, I'm going to lose
something, and so if I hold on,then then I can control outcomes
and then I can survive as aspecies.
You know, it's like all ofthese underlying needs, these
basic needs, totally Right.
Speaker 2 (25:13):
And that really gets to the heart of what I was
taught by my mentor, the guy whotrained like he's been my coach
forever and he's a madman.
I want to be clear I come fromthe lineage of a madman.
This is why it's good to haveclinical training along with the
insanity too, and I love men.
It's good to have clinicaltraining along with the insanity
too, and I love Breck.
Breck is he's he's a phenomenalfigure to me, but is is the
freedom work and the to me.
(25:35):
I don't know that he would agreewith this, but to me, one of
the biggest components of thefreedom work is freedom to lose,
freedom to let go, causeanything I have to have work
like.
Freedom to let go, becauseanything I have to have work
like if this podcast has to gowell, then I can only say things
that will make it go well.
I can't take risks, I can'tplay, I can't tell you like, oh,
this thing I just thought of,we can't work organically.
As soon as I'm attached to anoutcome or a way I need to be
(25:58):
seen or something I'm going tosuffer.
So freedom to lose it all.
Freedom for this to go poorly.
Freedom for it to lose therelationship, freedom to lose
the thing that your anxiety saysyou need to control.
As soon as we're inrelationship with loss and can
work with loss like it's a partof our curriculum rather than
it's a mistake, we can start toget liberated.
And again, that's not atherapeutic conversation, that's
(26:21):
a coaching conversation,because I not that it can't be
therapeutic.
Let me clarify it's not atherapy conversation.
Speaker 3 (26:48):
But I love that, the freedom to lose.
You know you said something.
Not that it can't betherapeutic.
Let me clarify it's not atherapy conversation, fighting
yourself.
Actually, it's more sane to letgo, and I did this interesting
piece a while ago, where it was.
I always hear this idea of theawkward silence and I'm like but
silence isn't awkward.
It's actually awkward that wedon't know how to sit in the
silence.
I think that's actually.
It's like I always like.
It's not awkward to silenceSilence.
There's nothing about silencethat's awkward at all.
It's just silence.
There's nothing, shane, that'sabout silence.
Speaker 2 (27:07):
That's awkward at all .
It's just silence.
There's nothing, shane.
That's brilliant.
What's awkward about awkwardsilence is not the silence, it's
our commentary, that's right,our narrative.
This shouldn't be happening.
That's what's fucking awkwardsilence.
Speaker 3 (27:19):
There's nothing to silence.
Everything is neutral.
It's the meaning you're makingit right.
So it's like whatever.
Whatever you're implying tothis neutral thing is your own
story and which could becreating more anxiety.
Speaker 2 (27:32):
That's the game.
Speaker 3 (27:32):
And stemming from you know, I know we just made
references to.
I did come from the AAcommunity as well and I love
this idea is like to restoresanity, is to understand the
insanity in your own thinking.
You know it's like we have tounderstand we are wild creatures
, by the way, that are just ourmind.
We create problems that haven'thappened yet.
(27:53):
We don't know what's going on.
We have a very limited frame ofreference that we see life from
, so we're not ever getting thewhole picture of anything
actually, and we leave it to betrue.
And when we react on that,whatever my mind's telling me
must be true, whatever I'mtelling myself, and it's like I
don't know if that's necessarilytrue.
Speaker 2 (28:14):
But that idea of like we're not getting the whole,
you're not getting the wholepicture, Like this is, I'm
telling you what?
you think about this Cause Ioften think there are stages to
this.
Um, like Ram Dass, too, talksabout, look, you have to become
somebody and then you can becomenobody.
And I think a lot of what we'redoing in therapy is becoming
somebody, learning how toadvocate for our needs and speak
(28:34):
up and trust our boundaries andget the result we want, take
care of ourselves.
But then freedom changes, youknow.
Then it becomes about.
Can I surrender all thesecomponents that I thought made
me up?
Not that we don't keep theboundaries or speak up, but can
I hold all of that a little bitmore loosely, a little bit more
gently, and can I allow moreloss and more curiosity in this
(28:57):
process?
Like the becoming somebodyprocess is wait a second.
I do see this clearly.
I can trust how I see this.
That's a valid stage.
But the becoming nobody is waita second.
I can't see any of this clearly.
I'm making it all up and that'sliberating, but if you tell
that to someone who's cominginto the becoming somebody phase
, it's the wrong fuckingconversation.
(29:17):
I can't tell someone who'snever had any therapy and needs
therapy hey, you're imaginingall this.
That's an inappropriateinvention, that's a totally,
yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, what aterrible gaslighting, absolutely
.
Speaker 3 (29:31):
Wow, that's a great way.
So the timing on thisconversation is Wow, that was so
meaningful, molly, because Ijust love that direction as far
as recognizing where thisindividual or individuals fall
on, you know, the spectrum ofchange, and understanding where
they are in their owndevelopment.
So, coming in, I don't have ame, I don't have a self, I don't
(29:53):
know how to advocate, I'mboundaryless, I'm living in my
shame.
So it's like, how do weadvocate through the boundaries,
through understanding internalor external boundaries, and then
we can move into which couldseem so interesting.
Right, it's like build this nowtake it apart, you know, it's
like that's exactly right.
Speaker 2 (30:12):
That's exactly right.
Look, this is why we have tochange clinicians or therapists
or coaches or guides, or why weneed to diversify often Because
the person that helped you buildit, or the conversation or the
modality that helped you developthat self or get sober, that
eventually has to fall apart.
I can't tell you how many, howoften.
I again love the recoveryprograms and I get a lot of
(30:35):
people in my practice who are 10or 15 years sober insisting I
still can't trust myself.
Right, hold on a second.
I think you've developed theright to trust yourself.
When you came in to sobriety,you absolutely didn't.
But if you're still believingthat you haven't developed
enough credibility to trustyourself when you came in to
sobriety, you absolutely didn't.
But if you're still believingthat you haven't developed
enough credibility to trustyourself now we're staying
arrested from exactly where youbegan, and that's a problem.
(30:57):
That's a problem.
So, look, there's a time totrust ourselves.
There's a time to surrendertrust and defer to other people,
and we want to know, in thebeginning and in the end, what's
actually required here, becauseyou may have not started
trusting yourself.
Learn to trust yourself andthen you operate differently.
So we want to allow the rulesto change and evolve.
(31:17):
Things have to fall away.
Even the stick that you pokethe fire with goes in the fire.
All of these methods are trapsand have to dismantle.
That might be too much.
That's insane.
Speaker 3 (31:30):
Oh, molly, this is so rich and so good.
I really love your wide lens.
It really we really move whenyou can expand again.
That idea is, if we always areseeing our life from a frame,
that our freedom is just outsidethat frame, if we can just see
it from, we turn from a verytwo-dimensional to a
multi-dimensional individual andthe more that you keep going
(31:53):
down the journey is, the moredimensions you can pull from and
see from and understand fromand feel from and be with and
not be.
You know it's like, but it'salways this idea of maybe it
still serves a purpose, right?
So if we're looking at it fromthe idea of the attachment and
identity, so what's the purposeit's still holding for you?
What are those gains that areassociated with continuing to
(32:14):
hide behind?
Say, if we're just looking fromthe anxiety, what is it serving
?
How does it serve and what'sthe risk?
If you let that go right, it'sjust like gain risks you know
there's a certain risk.
There's a fear that is coming.
So if I let this go, what?
What does that mean?
(32:34):
I'm going to annihilate, I'mgoing to just dissolve into thin
air.
Speaker 2 (32:36):
I'm not going to exist.
Yeah, and I'll hear all sortsof things.
Some people think like theanxiety allows them to feel
productive.
It feels like they're doingsomething like rearranging the
furniture.
Some of us that allows us tofeel like we're just we're doing
something, I have some role.
Or you know, even if it's, it'smundane, it, the obsession,
feels like it's might be makingprogress in some way, even
(32:56):
though it isn't.
And some of us just the habitof anxiety is what we're
addicted to.
That that feels like, well, I'man anxious person, this is what
I do.
Again, it feels so identifiedwith it it's hard to let that go
.
It can be like a real threat toyour identity to start to heal,
let alone to learn that, oh,this is a part of you and you
(33:20):
can keep it.
Speaker 3 (33:20):
You don't have to get rid of it, by the way, you
couldn't if you wanted to.
It's so interesting, as we'retalking about it, something that
landed as far as like, if thatcan move in somewhat of a
distraction piece, right, it'salmost like that can be our over
obsession and driving a lot ofwhatever that might be where we
can obsess solely on that,because, as it relates to the
fear, well, what's underneaththat?
(33:40):
Yeah, now, we had that's wherethe work is lying, but I could
just focus here and I'll justfocus on the top.
I heard this.
I heard this.
I don't know who it was.
It might've been, uh, I don'tknow if it's Richard Ward, but
he had said something like thefirst part of life is developing
the ego, so there's a sense ofidentity.
The second part of life islearning how to become friends
with your ego.
(34:03):
Right, like noticing themechanism, and that is the
becoming.
The ego is the evolved.
We need that.
We can't survive without an ego.
We need that.
We wouldn't be able to make itas a species so great.
Create it Now, let's unpackthat and dissolve that, and so
this is where it's like that isso confusing If you're on this
journey.
Wait, am I supposed to?
(34:24):
Am I I not supposed to?
But I love what you reallybrought in you.
You spoke these words of likeknowing where that person is and
on their journey of healing andhonoring that space where
they're at, and meeting themthere on that road, I think is
really important yeah, that's,that is the work, and I look, I
relate to that, you and I we're.
Speaker 2 (34:46):
What I love about you , shane, is that you're doing
this work and you're livingembodiment of it as well, and I,
it's clear, you're doing yourown work while you're also
facilitating this for yourclients.
Um, but, yeah, we're workingwith our own egos in this
process.
We don't get to amputate thoseeither.
Uh, we have to know where ourzip code is.
We have to know, like, who ourtax person is.
We have to, we have to havethese resources at our disposal,
(35:08):
um, and the instinct often whenit comes to personal growth or
even spiritual development, ishow do I transcend that?
And I love your point.
No, we fucking need that, that'sessential you know, get to get
rid of that.
That's an orienting piece.
It's both.
Can you use both?
That's the game.
Can you work?
with the duality of both goingat the same time and that's a
(35:30):
tough one.
It's a tough one.
I also love what you said aboutlike having to see the ego in
play, and I say this to clientsall the time the first step to
getting out of prison isagreeing that you're in prison.
You can't get out of prison ifyou think you're free.
I was talking to a client who'slike, yeah, I keep talking to a
client who's like, yeah, I keepuh, uh.
This is a client who's stillbecoming somebody and she was
talking about, uh, I, I keepinternet stalking my ex and as I
(35:54):
got in, I started coaching herand how to stop that and I
realized, oh, she wasn't fullyon board, that this wasn't
helpful behavior good but firstI gotta back this up, uh, and I
gotta get her to a point whereshe can agree oh right, stalking
my ups online is in prison,that's prison, and then we can
develop you.
Oh, I'm in prison right now.
I'm doing the thing, and now Ican stop doing the thing or make
(36:15):
efforts.
What do I have to feel if I'mnot doing the thing?
But, yeah, we can't see whereour ego is in our way, or have
an awareness that it's even inplay right now.
Speaker 3 (36:30):
We don't get free from it.
The awareness is the first stepto that.
Oh, molly.
Speaker 1 (36:34):
Molly, molly, so beautiful, so rich.
Speaker 3 (36:34):
I love, I love your approach because I just it, I
resonate with all of it.
So let's kind of you talkedabout this before.
What do you got going on?
Um, you talked about some, um,some sessions that people can
get involved in.
Tell us what you got going on.
Speaker 2 (36:49):
Yeah, I have uh, every Wednesday at noon Pacific
I offer with what?
Uh, this is kind of cheesy Ialways think it's cheesy when I
say the name, but it's called inpractice with Molly, come do
some practice with me.
We do a little guidedmindfulness practice and, uh,
again, I do it my way.
So there's also some Q&A.
So people bring in questionsabout their relationship, their
(37:10):
meditation practice, theiranxiety, questions about
coaching.
It's kind of a free for all andit's usually a really little
intimate group so between twoand 10, where people are
practicing together, and then Iusually will do a lecture on a
particular topic, answer somequestions and we're out in an
hour so that you can registerthrough the link in my bio on
Instagram or if you go to theworkshops on my website.
(37:32):
That's a weekly offering.
It's also sliding scale.
It's by donation.
You can come for free, and thenI have the living room starting
in September, which is my.
It's my six week coaching group.
I offer it several times a year.
That's when one startsSeptember 3rd.
Speaker 3 (37:45):
It's right around the corner.
Can't believe it.
Speaker 2 (37:48):
We're already almost there, so yeah and I'll have all
the links down at the bottom.
Speaker 3 (37:56):
So if you didn't catch any of that, I'll have the
links where you can getconnected with Molly and hear
her approach.
I mean, again, directful, butwith love and understanding.
So I really it resonates withme.
I really love that.
So I really it resonates withme.
I really love that.
So, Molly, such a pleasure tohave you Always, always, always.
I'm sure we'll probably do itmany times because, yes,
(38:16):
Absolutely.
Anyway, we'll end here Again.
My name is Shane.
This is Men Uncaved.
We need to come out of hiding.
How many times, while sitting in the grips of our
anxiety, have we uttered thewords I hate this, I wish it
would just go away.
Now, as we sit and we thinkabout the words we're saying,
we're actually trying to get ridof a part of ourself this
anxiety, this sadness, thedepression.
(00:21):
Now I understand it might becompletely uncomfortable to sit
with, but the deeper questionwhen we're saying such words as
I hate this or I want it to goaway, is how do we get rid of a
part of ourself?
Would we want to get rid ofthat part of ourself, and what
are the possibilities that thatpart of ourself is actually here
(00:43):
to reveal, possibilities thatthat part of ourself is actually
here to reveal, to light a pathon a way to heal?
In today's episode, I sit withformer therapist turned coach,
molly Burney as we explore thisdeeper question, as why would we
want to, and is that the pathto freedom, or is learning how
(01:05):
to be with it the way toliberation?
Speaker 3 (01:12):
Welcome to man Uncaved.
My name is Shane Coyle.
Welcome back, welcome back.
I am sitting today with MollyBurney, former therapist turned
coach.
So I think the question I wantto start with is usually it's
the other way, right.
People go from maybe a coach Imean I would.
I would gather they go fromsome type of coach to become a
(01:33):
therapist.
It seems like and I guess, inour understanding of how this
goes, but you went the other way, so I don't know if there is a
right way.
So let's just put that out,sure, but kind of give a
snapshot of what was thatdecision behind your becoming a
coach.
Speaker 2 (01:50):
Yeah, a lot of pieces to this.
First of all is that I hadworked with a coach since I was
20.
My coach got me out of my firstcareer, which was choral
conducting, of all things.
I was finishing a master's inchoral conducting right before I
got the master's in clinicalpsych and my coach was telling
me are you done pretending to dowhatever this is, you need to
(02:10):
be coaching.
And I had said to his face,coaching has no credibility.
I said this to my coach this isnot a credible field.
I think I was being sort oftongue in cheek.
But that's fine for you, butfor me I need to do something
serious with my life.
And he sort of smirked at thatand he said look, you should be
working in human behavior.
And so I went and got themaster's in clinical psych and
(02:32):
after a few years, uh, with thatunder my belt, he said are you
done pretending to be atherapist?
You ready to have theconversation you want to have?
And I had to look at the work Iwas doing as a therapist and
watched how often I was tuggingmy reins or how often my client
was asking a follow-up questionthat I wanted to answer a little
bit more cavalierly and withmore directiveness, and how
(02:55):
often I was biting my tongue andlook, there are plenty of
therapists who coach and keeptheir license For me.
I had so much noise of like, ohno, if I say that, is that
clinically inappropriate, wouldthis be something a coach says
or what a therapist says?
I was so wrapped up in my noisethat it robbed me of being
(03:18):
present with my client and Ifinally surrendered to my coach.
I said, fine, yes, train me.
Let's go the apprentice model,let's do this Because I was
clear how much I was.
It was in my own internalconflict of like, can I say this
?
I want to speak the way I wantto speak, and so this was just
about freeing me up to integrateall parts of myself.
I will say that there areplenty of clients that I work
with and it might look quitesimilar to therapy, but I get to
(03:41):
bring a lot more of myself andmy I don't know my doggedness,
my playfulness, to theconversation.
So in that sense it's quitedifferent.
Speaker 3 (03:49):
Yeah, I love that and I think that it rings true for
the straight talk therapy thatyou or the coaching that you do
which I love it because I thinkwe're in agreeance or some type
of conscious shock to the system.
That needs to happen, andsometimes we need to hit it
direct and we need to hit it rawand and we can move in the
discomforts from that place, asopposed to the soft and gentle
(04:10):
staying in some type ofparameters, whether that's
parameters of illusion,parameters, or we're making the
parameters, or whatever it isRight.
There's definitely a risktaking into this work.
I think we need to push thelines a little bit sometimes.
Speaker 2 (04:23):
Yeah, yeah, and that certainly allows me the forum to
do that without the noise, andthat doesn't mean I'm not still
discovering parameters.
I mean one of the things that Igot to see in putting up this
reel that we're going to talkabout today was like oh, there
are some elements of this thatare too in your face, that are
quite provocative, which youknow.
(04:43):
I think that's playful.
I also my social media tooksome my person took some
liberties with the Zoom, so Ithink all that was a little bit
more aggressive, but it allowsfor just a more authentic
presentation of the work for me.
So that's why I dig the titleno-transcript.
Speaker 3 (05:31):
You know, set the stage a little bit around that.
Speaker 2 (05:34):
Yeah, well, the post specifically was about a
consultation that I'd hadrecently with a client who was
asking you know, I'll ask in aconsultation with a prospective
client how can I be of service?
What are you looking to do?
How would you know if this workwas effective?
And she said, well, my anxietywould be gone.
And I had said sort ofplayfully well, I need you to
(05:55):
know, I want to shoot youstraight I have no ability to
get rid of your anxiety and Idon't know that there's anyone
out there who can.
She was shocked.
You know I'm saying this againout there who can?
She was shocked.
I'm saying this again sort oftongue-in-cheek because of
course, the work that I'm doingis of help to the anxiety.
I wouldn't continue to getclients if I'm not helping you
work with the anxiety andexperience relief around it.
(06:15):
But for her, the idea that itwould be extinguished entirely
if our work was successful.
It's a theme I hear sometimes,sometimes that clients have an
expectation that they are goingto be able to amputate
successfully some part ofthemselves and that will allow
them to move forward when I canrewrite my story or cut off from
(06:36):
my trauma or when I can reallywash my hands of that nasty
anxiety or that shame, then Ican move forward with my life.
And I think this is a reallycommon misconception.
We can get into the reasons whywe think that way, but suffice
to say I was responding withlike, look, the game is about
making a relationship with ouranxiety so you can have it
(06:59):
rather than it has you.
But the idea that you'resupposed to be able to get rid
of this puts us in combat, intrue conflict with ourselves and
convinced that some part of usshouldn't be there.
So you know, then you have tolive at war with yourself if
you're striving to get rid of it.
And the whole game is about howdo we live in more peace, how
do we live in more freedom?
(07:20):
So anyway, that's the post,that's the gist of the post.
Speaker 3 (07:25):
Yeah, well, definitely in an agreeance with
you and as I was listening toyour post and I don't know if
you know, and maybe you doactually you know Rolo May was
talking about this to themeanings of anxiety,
particularly with anxiety andthe meanings to find out.
It could lead to sense ofcreativity, it could lead, you
know.
So he looks at it from a verywide lens and a very narrow way
(07:47):
of I need to get rid of this.
And and and again, I am analliance with you because I
don't know how do you get rid ofthese things, nor do I, nor do
particularly I want to, becausethere's such learning, there's
such messaging behind that, andI think there's this let me just
get over these things, let meget over this, Let me and I
think there's this let me justget over these things, let me
get over this, let me move mytrauma, let me move these things
(08:08):
out of the way.
And I'm just like, well, whydon't we learn and understand
the messaging?
And it's kind of bringing thatto your forefront.
Speaker 2 (08:13):
Sorry, go ahead.
Yes, no, no, I was justspeaking to like.
I think that's a reallyadvanced and or fear or anything
we're looking to get rid of.
We can't be curious aboutanything we're trying to banish.
Speaker 1 (08:32):
Right.
Speaker 2 (08:33):
And the game here is curiosity, like, well, what does
my fear have to tell me andwhat is my anxiety trying to
communicate?
And what else is on the heelsof this boredom or that shame or
whatever it is that's showingup?
And so much of this work?
I don't care if it's coachingor therapy or fucking plant
medicine, lots of directions youcan go in here, but you have to
be curious about whatever it isthat you're studying.
(08:53):
And if you're studying yourthoughts, let's get curious
about them.
If you're studying your fear,anxiety or shame, curiosity is
it.
Again, as soon as we're tryingto get rid of it, there is no
room for that curiosity.
There's this thing I'll talkabout sometimes is that I
playfully call it the step zeroparadox, meaning before you
actually start doing the work,here's the zero step, which is
(09:17):
anything you're trying to getrid of.
You know I'm trying to stoplying or stop this addiction or
stop this thing.
We first have to include it, wefirst have to be in embracing
it and in relationship with itso that we can do the work of
changing our relationship to it,because that's not possible if
amputation is the only goal here, right, and I, yeah, and I'm
(09:39):
agreeance I think thedismemberment of those is really
the root of it anyway, is likewe've been trying to dismember,
or it became dismembered insteadof learning from it.
Speaker 3 (09:47):
You know, and and it's, it's so interesting and
you did in the post and I wantto kind of talk about that too
is well, first of all, there wasa lot of mixed, mixed feedback,
which is fine, that's okay and,again, I love the allowance of
people having their experienceand it's not for us to tell them
what their experience is, it'sfor us to sit in it and I think
that sense of curiosity givesthem the invitation to challenge
(10:11):
it.
What about what I'm saying isevoking something and what about
that is there with a sense ofcuriosity.
So I do love that.
You did bring up something too,and it wasn't particularly at
this individual, so we have tomake this clear.
I think, yeah, yeah, there wassome feedback.
It was like why are you talkingabout this, about your client?
I was like, but that's not whatI heard, you know, it was like
(10:31):
there is a system that kind ofcan create these conditionings
of let's get rid of, let's getrid of, and so maybe we can talk
about that and and and and, theanger towards some of that
stuff or the frustrations, yeahyeah, I think anger is valid and
this is some of the pushback Igot.
Speaker 2 (10:51):
It's like wait, why would you be angry at a client?
Absolutely not angry at theclient.
I'm angry at the system thatperpetuated this misconception
for her.
Speaker 1 (10:59):
Right.
Speaker 2 (11:01):
And, yeah, instagram.
Of course I'm going to be alittle provocative and start the
real, like I'm fucking madabout this, um, but you know, if
anyone is watching that andbananas enough to think that I
would speak to a client that way, I think you might be missing
the point of Instagram.
But that's okay.
That's okay If you're, ifyou're, if you're seeing it that
way, you're probably not, uh,my client.
(11:21):
Let's be clear.
Um, but yeah, that there was.
There was a lot of uh, a lot ofpushback and, and specifically
from people with um reportedhaving acute anxiety and complex
PTSD anxiety, things like that,saying no, no, no, I can't
accept this as a part of myself,and how dare you suggest that I
do?
And I gotta say I, I, um, Itend to have a pretty peaceful
(11:45):
approach to this, so I wassurprised that, even with how
provocative and the video was alot of zooms and so it is um, I
was surprised to get that kindof response and it made me
really, really interested in um,uh.
You know, my, my assumption ishow identified you have to be
with your anxiety, uh, and theidea of getting rid of it and
being victimized by it too, thatthe idea of including it is
(12:07):
offensive.
That's my first interpretation,maybe no being on the bones to
that um, but I think it's reallyinteresting taking a look at
why that is such a dangerousidea to folks.
Um, and I think it's because itreally is in conflict with
everything our culture, yes, yes.
(12:30):
I don't know about you, but Imean, I grew up in the
capitalist soup, right.
Speaker 1 (12:35):
Yeah, of course.
Speaker 2 (12:36):
We get a lot of information about how to be
successful, and not beinganxious is part of how to be
successful, by the way, Icertainly got that message
really clearly.
And even though our culture hasincluded anxiety to some degree
it's okay to talk about.
You know, I have a diet, I havesocial anxiety or I have a
diagnosis of anxiety there isstill the idea that we need to
(13:00):
use the wellness industry tofigure out how to get rid of
this thing.
Therapy is going to help me getrid of it, yeah, and we.
I think also capitalism isreally committed to this idea.
You're a problem to solve youbetter figure out how to solve
that you better Let me sell youthe solution to that problem.
Let me market you the problemthat you don't actually have,
and then I'm going to sell youthe solution to that same
(13:21):
problem.
Speaker 3 (13:22):
You never have in the first place, definitely for
capitalism.
It's a great business.
Speaker 2 (13:25):
You have a problem that can never be fixed and we
have the only solution onlysolution, and I think that not
only can it be fixed, but I havethe solution for it.
Speaker 3 (13:33):
Yes, yes, absolutely, and I and I'm in total
agreeance with you, and this iswhere I think we align.
You know, when we're doing thiswork.
Obviously, there's just themicro, the macro lens to
everything, and, uh, I came uponthis thing where it was.
This gentleman was talkingabout what creates a dysfunction
in a system.
So that's going to be a familysystem.
Obviously, we ourselves are asystem, society is a system,
(13:55):
relationships are a system.
Everything is systematic.
But what creates dysfunction isthis abandonment in your pain
or abandonment in your hurt.
What creates a healthy systemis we love you in your pain.
So, if you look at that fromthe lens of a society, or even
our own self, we are a system ofcommunication within our own
(14:15):
self.
Learning to love that part ofourself or understand that part
of ourselves with a sense ofcuriosity creates a healthy
system.
But, like what you were goingback a while ago, is that, if
that is a part that we have toget rid of, we're in constant
collision with ourself.
And, believe me, you know and Iknow probably you, as me, as
(14:36):
any human being out there I haveenough going on in collision
with myself on a daily basis.
I don't need another thing tohold on to and attach to and
speaking of attachment, that isso interesting because I think
there is something we can usepeople, we, I can use these
(15:00):
labels as an identity to attachto, and we can somehow hide
behind these identities.
These are the reasons why wecannot move forward or cannot
succeed or cannot have thatrelationship, whatever is
presented in front of us, and wewill hide behind our own
excuses, without the sense ofcuriosity.
Is that true?
Speaker 2 (15:17):
Yeah, it sort of begs the question well, who would I
be then without the anxiety andthere's often fear about that
and somehow including theanxiety, even though, like the
illusion is like let me get ridof this thing and then I'll be
fine, there's often an enormousamount of anxiety about not
having anxiety.
Um that when I, when I work withclients and it starts to get
better, some of the feedbackI'll get instantly is wait, who
(15:40):
am I?
I feel disoriented.
Is this safe?
Is this okay?
I feel irresponsible.
Um, because we're so allied towho we were when we're listening
to it like it's credible, um,but yeah, we have a real
conflict about like, am Isupposed to get rid of this?
But who will I be without it?
And then I want to be allied toit.
Um, there's a lot of personalidentification with our
(16:00):
so-called pathology.
That's just part of ourhumanity.
It doesn't need to be bigger,or smaller.
Speaker 3 (16:05):
That's right.
Yeah, and that, and thatrepetitive pattern that keeps us
stuck there and just, you know,that identity kind of a
regurgitation we we attach to itis this is, this is who I am,
and this is who I am.
And it's like I don't know ifthat's necessarily true because,
right, I love that question.
It's like, well, what would bepossible if that wasn't true?
And you're not that, andbringing that from the rear view
(16:29):
to the frontal view, but justunderstanding the mechanisms of
it.
Speaker 2 (16:40):
Yeah, yeah.
Well, this parlays into abetter identity conversation.
Like whoever you think you areis immediately a limitation.
One of my favorite quotes and Iwant to be clear before I
provide this quote I grew up inAlcoholics Anonymous.
There's a lot to love aboutAlcoholics Anonymous and I love
that.
One of the things Ram Das saysis look, you don't want to end
up an alcoholic, you want to endup free.
But even with that title ofalcoholic and sobriety and all
(17:01):
of the positive things that comewith that, there's a limit to
any title we put on ourselves.
There's something quitecongested about that.
And he's not saying you need togo out and drink necessarily.
He's saying open up thatidentity, get curious about what
the identity costs you.
If you are an anxious person,there are things that are going
to cost you.
If I have to be seen in anyidentity, if I need to be seen
(17:22):
as smart right now, certainthings I cannot say for fear of
protecting that identity or forfear of risking that identity.
So true freedom is the abilityto show up using all parts of
ourselves, including our anxietyand our shame.
Speaker 3 (17:35):
For goodness sake, yeah, absolutely, and I think
that's really what was callingme with your post is just.
First of all, I just love yourstraightforward talk.
I tend to really love that.
You know, it's something that Iinspire in mine is being very
direct as possible.
I mean, obviously, withgentleness, I think we can be
direct, obviously, but the loveneeds to be felt right, the
(17:56):
connection needs to be feltunderneath that.
Speaker 2 (17:58):
If it's not present, that directiveness is abuse.
If the love isn't there, it'sjust that direction, it's
actually abuse.
Speaker 3 (18:04):
Right and I think, yeah, absolutely Good point.
And so making sure that that isclear within our relationship,
that we can allow the space tohave that direct, because you
know that it's coming from sucha loving place, and that's what
it was really.
What that post was reallycalling to me is the micro, the
macro.
(18:24):
I mean, obviously you did pointout, obviously it's
unprecedented times.
There's a lot going on in theworld.
We don't have to get into it.
That's what you were talkingabout.
We all know, we're all livingit.
However, yes, what is thisteaching us?
What is this learning?
What are we learning here inour own healing and actually I'm
a firm believer in that we haveeverything we need to actually
(18:45):
heal.
I think these are beautifulthings.
To know is that you haveeverything.
I'm not giving you anything,I'm just pointing to it.
We're just pointers.
Did you see that?
Look at that.
Did you see this?
Speaker 2 (18:57):
One of my favorite things is I'll be coaching a
client and I'm watching them nod.
I'm like, by the way, you'renodding not because I'm blowing
your mind here, I'm sayingsomething you already know
clearly.
I'm affirming what you alreadyknow, so let's ride on that
particular.
Speaker 3 (19:12):
Right, it's so.
It's so interesting Cause Iknow you know we're in the same
lines of work.
But obviously, yes, Listeningto someone talk and they're like
you know, say, if it's comingfrom the recovery and I'm like
I'm, I'm feeling stuck, I'm notcalling my sponsor.
If you're looking from therecovery, I'm not calling my
sponsor.
I'm not doing this step works,I'm not.
Did you just hear what you'rejust saying?
So what would be the solution?
You already have the solution.
(19:33):
That's right, let's just pauseand listen to what we're saying
for a second.
Did you hear what you're saying?
Oh, so call your sponsor and doyour step work, if that's the
room I'm sitting in or if theperson I'm dealing with.
So I, you know and I, and so ifthat is true, then really this
understanding more of what is myown experience and what is my
(19:55):
own process, this is exactly thestuff, and so I started this
little weekly.
Speaker 2 (20:02):
what is it?
It's like, really, my officehour and folks can come.
I'll do a little meditation andanswer some questions for folks
.
It's a.
It's a chance for people whoare not familiar with my work to
step into it a little bit, andone of the things we're doing is
just a little bit of meditationpractice at a time, and I love
this idea of can you just take alook at what's present In our
(20:25):
silence, with your eyes closed,if that's comfortable for you,
in your stillness?
What's here?
Because we're so quick to getinto.
I want to start organizing it.
I want to start labeling it.
I want to start fixing it.
I want to start clearing it out.
Can you tolerate just thelooking?
Can we tolerate just theawareness as the dimmer switch
increases and more light is shedin this room?
(20:46):
We want to start organizing andcleaning and fixing.
Speaker 1 (20:50):
Tolerate more so beautiful.
Speaker 2 (20:53):
Tolerate more and cleaning and fixing, tolerate
more, so beautiful.
Tolerate more and and not like.
Tolerate from like suffering.
But can you tolerate the peaceand the stillness before taking
action?
That's really this, the uh, thepiece that's often missing in
our ability to sit with ouranxiety, because we think,
including the anxiety, makingroom for it or whatever, that
it's going to be either allconsuming and dominating right,
or that we're going to be eitherall consuming and dominating
(21:13):
Right or that we're going tosomehow lose something in the
process.
I'm going to lose some control,and this is why our instinct
when we feel anxious, is alwaysto push against it.
Speaker 1 (21:22):
Right.
Speaker 2 (21:23):
Every time I do a workshop, I'm nervous.
Every time I do a podcast, I'musually nervous.
And at the beginning of mostworkshops I will start by saying
I need you to know I'm anxiousbecause I want to model what it
looks like to not be pushingthat away.
If I was pushing it away, Ithen have to pretend like I'm
not anxious and you don't wantto watch me pretend like I'm not
anxious.
You want to hear me coach.
So in order for me to includethat anxiety in the room and not
(21:47):
have to pretend like it's notthere, let me name it.
So you know I'm anxious, we knowI'm anxious.
Can we fucking move forward nowwe get on with it.
Speaker 1 (21:53):
Right.
Speaker 2 (21:54):
And that's being in relationship with it.
But that only comes from thatability to slow down, be mindful
and compassionate about whatI'm seeing Ah, my anxieties.
Of course it belongs here.
Wouldn't it be bizarre if I dida workshop and I wasn't anxious
?
Speaker 3 (22:10):
Absolutely.
I don't care how many workshopsyou've done right.
Can you speak more and maybewhat you're noticing too?
Because you brought up a goodpoint about the need to control
and how there's a collisionagainst that.
I guess that fear response.
Speaker 2 (22:26):
Yeah, when I talk about anxiety with my clients
and this is a coachingdefinition this is not a
clinical distinction, but Ithink of anxiety as the instinct
, the attempt to control.
Get control over something wehave no business trying to
control, whether it's the futureor the outcome or what.
You think of me trying tomicromanage something I have no
(22:46):
business trying to micromanage.
Think of me trying tomicromanage something I have no
business trying to micromanage.
And this is why our instinctwhen we're trying to work with
anxiety is get the control, asthough that's going to
extinguish the anxiety and thegame is actually can I practice
surrendering the control, whichis the most counterintuitive
thing we could possibly asksomeone in high anxiety to do?
(23:07):
I realize how absurd andoffensive that can be.
What do you mean?
Go into?
Speaker 1 (23:12):
it.
Speaker 2 (23:13):
You know, I've usually spent a decade surviving
it by not going into it.
That's why we do drugs and whywe binge and why we have
compulsive sex and why we gambleand why we do all the things we
have to do to avoid it.
What do you mean?
Go into it?
Are you insane?
Yeah, a little bit, A littlebit, To suggest some of this
counterintuitive stuff.
We have to be right.
But that is the game.
(23:33):
What happens if I orienttowards it?
And just that idea can be anoverstimulating conversation for
someone, which is why we comeback to the mindfulness.
What happens in your body whenI just present the idea of
moving towards it.
Notice all the tension that,like we haven't even done
anything and your shoulders areup around your ears and there's
(23:56):
survival is in play.
So we want to get curious aboutthese phenomenons, because you
wouldn't choose to pay the coachand then resist everything the
coach is suggesting.
Speaker 1 (24:06):
Right.
Speaker 2 (24:07):
You wouldn't put that on your to-do list.
Only a crazy person would do itthat way, and you're not crazy.
So, like speaking to the pieceof them that wants to be there
and is hungry for a differentexperience, acknowledging the
fear about including the anxietyand holding space for that
whole dance.
I don't even know if I'manswering your question.
I'm sort of just riffing here,forgive me.
Speaker 3 (24:26):
No, I think you did.
I mean, I connect to it againbecause I love the wide lens of
understanding this and, yeah, Idefinitely agree with you on
this way of approaching it froma different way and a different
lens and connecting to it to itum, well, what we're talking
(24:51):
about is a sense of morecuriosity, um, a sense of yeah,
I think it pushes up againstsurvival, just as a species.
if I'm not in control, I'm goingto die, I'm going to lose
validation, I'm going to loselove, I'm going to lose
something, and so if I hold on,then then I can control outcomes
and then I can survive as aspecies.
You know, it's like all ofthese underlying needs, these
basic needs, totally Right.
Speaker 2 (25:13):
And that really gets to the heart of what I was
taught by my mentor, the guy whotrained like he's been my coach
forever and he's a madman.
I want to be clear I come fromthe lineage of a madman.
This is why it's good to haveclinical training along with the
insanity too, and I love men.
It's good to have clinicaltraining along with the insanity
too, and I love Breck.
Breck is he's he's a phenomenalfigure to me, but is is the
freedom work and the to me.
(25:35):
I don't know that he would agreewith this, but to me, one of
the biggest components of thefreedom work is freedom to lose,
freedom to let go, causeanything I have to have work
like.
Freedom to let go, becauseanything I have to have work
like if this podcast has to gowell, then I can only say things
that will make it go well.
I can't take risks, I can'tplay, I can't tell you like, oh,
this thing I just thought of,we can't work organically.
As soon as I'm attached to anoutcome or a way I need to be
(25:58):
seen or something I'm going tosuffer.
So freedom to lose it all.
Freedom for this to go poorly.
Freedom for it to lose therelationship, freedom to lose
the thing that your anxiety saysyou need to control.
As soon as we're inrelationship with loss and can
work with loss like it's a partof our curriculum rather than
it's a mistake, we can start toget liberated.
And again, that's not atherapeutic conversation, that's
(26:21):
a coaching conversation,because I not that it can't be
therapeutic.
Let me clarify it's not atherapy conversation.
Speaker 3 (26:48):
But I love that, the freedom to lose.
You know you said something.
Not that it can't betherapeutic.
Let me clarify it's not atherapy conversation, fighting
yourself.
Actually, it's more sane to letgo, and I did this interesting
piece a while ago, where it was.
I always hear this idea of theawkward silence and I'm like but
silence isn't awkward.
It's actually awkward that wedon't know how to sit in the
silence.
I think that's actually.
It's like I always like.
It's not awkward to silenceSilence.
There's nothing about silencethat's awkward at all.
It's just silence.
There's nothing, shane, that'sabout silence.
Speaker 2 (27:07):
That's awkward at all .
It's just silence.
There's nothing, shane.
That's brilliant.
What's awkward about awkwardsilence is not the silence, it's
our commentary, that's right,our narrative.
This shouldn't be happening.
That's what's fucking awkwardsilence.
Speaker 3 (27:19):
There's nothing to silence.
Everything is neutral.
It's the meaning you're makingit right.
So it's like whatever.
Whatever you're implying tothis neutral thing is your own
story and which could becreating more anxiety.
Speaker 2 (27:32):
That's the game.
Speaker 3 (27:32):
And stemming from you know, I know we just made
references to.
I did come from the AAcommunity as well and I love
this idea is like to restoresanity, is to understand the
insanity in your own thinking.
You know it's like we have tounderstand we are wild creatures
, by the way, that are just ourmind.
We create problems that haven'thappened yet.
(27:53):
We don't know what's going on.
We have a very limited frame ofreference that we see life from
, so we're not ever getting thewhole picture of anything
actually, and we leave it to betrue.
And when we react on that,whatever my mind's telling me
must be true, whatever I'mtelling myself, and it's like I
don't know if that's necessarilytrue.
Speaker 2 (28:14):
But that idea of like we're not getting the whole,
you're not getting the wholepicture, Like this is, I'm
telling you what?
you think about this Cause Ioften think there are stages to
this.
Um, like Ram Dass, too, talksabout, look, you have to become
somebody and then you can becomenobody.
And I think a lot of what we'redoing in therapy is becoming
somebody, learning how toadvocate for our needs and speak
(28:34):
up and trust our boundaries andget the result we want, take
care of ourselves.
But then freedom changes, youknow.
Then it becomes about.
Can I surrender all thesecomponents that I thought made
me up?
Not that we don't keep theboundaries or speak up, but can
I hold all of that a little bitmore loosely, a little bit more
gently, and can I allow moreloss and more curiosity in this
(28:57):
process?
Like the becoming somebodyprocess is wait a second.
I do see this clearly.
I can trust how I see this.
That's a valid stage.
But the becoming nobody is waita second.
I can't see any of this clearly.
I'm making it all up and that'sliberating, but if you tell
that to someone who's cominginto the becoming somebody phase
, it's the wrong fuckingconversation.
(29:17):
I can't tell someone who'snever had any therapy and needs
therapy hey, you're imaginingall this.
That's an inappropriateinvention, that's a totally,
yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, what aterrible gaslighting, absolutely
.
Speaker 3 (29:31):
Wow, that's a great way.
So the timing on thisconversation is Wow, that was so
meaningful, molly, because Ijust love that direction as far
as recognizing where thisindividual or individuals fall
on, you know, the spectrum ofchange, and understanding where
they are in their owndevelopment.
So, coming in, I don't have ame, I don't have a self, I don't
(29:53):
know how to advocate, I'mboundaryless, I'm living in my
shame.
So it's like, how do weadvocate through the boundaries,
through understanding internalor external boundaries, and then
we can move into which couldseem so interesting.
Right, it's like build this nowtake it apart, you know, it's
like that's exactly right.
Speaker 2 (30:12):
That's exactly right.
Look, this is why we have tochange clinicians or therapists
or coaches or guides, or why weneed to diversify often Because
the person that helped you buildit, or the conversation or the
modality that helped you developthat self or get sober, that
eventually has to fall apart.
I can't tell you how many, howoften.
I again love the recoveryprograms and I get a lot of
(30:35):
people in my practice who are 10or 15 years sober insisting I
still can't trust myself.
Right, hold on a second.
I think you've developed theright to trust yourself.
When you came in to sobriety,you absolutely didn't.
But if you're still believingthat you haven't developed
enough credibility to trustyourself when you came in to
sobriety, you absolutely didn't.
But if you're still believingthat you haven't developed
enough credibility to trustyourself now we're staying
arrested from exactly where youbegan, and that's a problem.
(30:57):
That's a problem.
So, look, there's a time totrust ourselves.
There's a time to surrendertrust and defer to other people,
and we want to know, in thebeginning and in the end, what's
actually required here, becauseyou may have not started
trusting yourself.
Learn to trust yourself andthen you operate differently.
So we want to allow the rulesto change and evolve.
(31:17):
Things have to fall away.
Even the stick that you pokethe fire with goes in the fire.
All of these methods are trapsand have to dismantle.
That might be too much.
That's insane.
Speaker 3 (31:30):
Oh, molly, this is so rich and so good.
I really love your wide lens.
It really we really move whenyou can expand again.
That idea is, if we always areseeing our life from a frame,
that our freedom is just outsidethat frame, if we can just see
it from, we turn from a verytwo-dimensional to a
multi-dimensional individual andthe more that you keep going
(31:53):
down the journey is, the moredimensions you can pull from and
see from and understand fromand feel from and be with and
not be.
You know it's like, but it'salways this idea of maybe it
still serves a purpose, right?
So if we're looking at it fromthe idea of the attachment and
identity, so what's the purposeit's still holding for you?
What are those gains that areassociated with continuing to
(32:14):
hide behind?
Say, if we're just looking fromthe anxiety, what is it serving
?
How does it serve and what'sthe risk?
If you let that go right, it'sjust like gain risks you know
there's a certain risk.
There's a fear that is coming.
So if I let this go, what?
What does that mean?
(32:34):
I'm going to annihilate, I'mgoing to just dissolve into thin
air.
Speaker 2 (32:36):
I'm not going to exist.
Yeah, and I'll hear all sortsof things.
Some people think like theanxiety allows them to feel
productive.
It feels like they're doingsomething like rearranging the
furniture.
Some of us that allows us tofeel like we're just we're doing
something, I have some role.
Or you know, even if it's, it'smundane, it, the obsession,
feels like it's might be makingprogress in some way, even
(32:56):
though it isn't.
And some of us just the habitof anxiety is what we're
addicted to.
That that feels like, well, I'man anxious person, this is what
I do.
Again, it feels so identifiedwith it it's hard to let that go
.
It can be like a real threat toyour identity to start to heal,
let alone to learn that, oh,this is a part of you and you
(33:20):
can keep it.
Speaker 3 (33:20):
You don't have to get rid of it, by the way, you
couldn't if you wanted to.
It's so interesting, as we'retalking about it, something that
landed as far as like, if thatcan move in somewhat of a
distraction piece, right, it'salmost like that can be our over
obsession and driving a lot ofwhatever that might be where we
can obsess solely on that,because, as it relates to the
fear, well, what's underneaththat?
(33:40):
Yeah, now, we had that's wherethe work is lying, but I could
just focus here and I'll justfocus on the top.
I heard this.
I heard this.
I don't know who it was.
It might've been, uh, I don'tknow if it's Richard Ward, but
he had said something like thefirst part of life is developing
the ego, so there's a sense ofidentity.
The second part of life islearning how to become friends
with your ego.
(34:03):
Right, like noticing themechanism, and that is the
becoming.
The ego is the evolved.
We need that.
We can't survive without an ego.
We need that.
We wouldn't be able to make itas a species so great.
Create it Now, let's unpackthat and dissolve that, and so
this is where it's like that isso confusing If you're on this
journey.
Wait, am I supposed to?
(34:24):
Am I I not supposed to?
But I love what you reallybrought in you.
You spoke these words of likeknowing where that person is and
on their journey of healing andhonoring that space where
they're at, and meeting themthere on that road, I think is
really important yeah, that's,that is the work, and I look, I
relate to that, you and I we're.
Speaker 2 (34:46):
What I love about you , shane, is that you're doing
this work and you're livingembodiment of it as well, and I,
it's clear, you're doing yourown work while you're also
facilitating this for yourclients.
Um, but, yeah, we're workingwith our own egos in this
process.
We don't get to amputate thoseeither.
Uh, we have to know where ourzip code is.
We have to know, like, who ourtax person is.
We have to, we have to havethese resources at our disposal,
(35:08):
um, and the instinct often whenit comes to personal growth or
even spiritual development, ishow do I transcend that?
And I love your point.
No, we fucking need that, that'sessential you know, get to get
rid of that.
That's an orienting piece.
It's both.
Can you use both?
That's the game.
Can you work?
with the duality of both goingat the same time and that's a
(35:30):
tough one.
It's a tough one.
I also love what you said aboutlike having to see the ego in
play, and I say this to clientsall the time the first step to
getting out of prison isagreeing that you're in prison.
You can't get out of prison ifyou think you're free.
I was talking to a client who'slike, yeah, I keep talking to a
client who's like, yeah, I keepuh, uh.
This is a client who's stillbecoming somebody and she was
talking about, uh, I, I keepinternet stalking my ex and as I
(35:54):
got in, I started coaching herand how to stop that and I
realized, oh, she wasn't fullyon board, that this wasn't
helpful behavior good but firstI gotta back this up, uh, and I
gotta get her to a point whereshe can agree oh right, stalking
my ups online is in prison,that's prison, and then we can
develop you.
Oh, I'm in prison right now.
I'm doing the thing, and now Ican stop doing the thing or make
(36:15):
efforts.
What do I have to feel if I'mnot doing the thing?
But, yeah, we can't see whereour ego is in our way, or have
an awareness that it's even inplay right now.
Speaker 3 (36:30):
We don't get free from it.
The awareness is the first stepto that.
Oh, molly.
Speaker 1 (36:34):
Molly, molly, so beautiful, so rich.
Speaker 3 (36:34):
I love, I love your approach because I just it, I
resonate with all of it.
So let's kind of you talkedabout this before.
What do you got going on?
Um, you talked about some, um,some sessions that people can
get involved in.
Tell us what you got going on.
Speaker 2 (36:49):
Yeah, I have uh, every Wednesday at noon Pacific
I offer with what?
Uh, this is kind of cheesy Ialways think it's cheesy when I
say the name, but it's called inpractice with Molly, come do
some practice with me.
We do a little guidedmindfulness practice and, uh,
again, I do it my way.
So there's also some Q&A.
So people bring in questionsabout their relationship, their
(37:10):
meditation practice, theiranxiety, questions about
coaching.
It's kind of a free for all andit's usually a really little
intimate group so between twoand 10, where people are
practicing together, and then Iusually will do a lecture on a
particular topic, answer somequestions and we're out in an
hour so that you can registerthrough the link in my bio on
Instagram or if you go to theworkshops on my website.
(37:32):
That's a weekly offering.
It's also sliding scale.
It's by donation.
You can come for free, and thenI have the living room starting
in September, which is my.
It's my six week coaching group.
I offer it several times a year.
That's when one startsSeptember 3rd.
Speaker 3 (37:45):
It's right around the corner.
Can't believe it.
Speaker 2 (37:48):
We're already almost there, so yeah and I'll have all
the links down at the bottom.
Speaker 3 (37:56):
So if you didn't catch any of that, I'll have the
links where you can getconnected with Molly and hear
her approach.
I mean, again, directful, butwith love and understanding.
So I really it resonates withme.
I really love that.
So I really it resonates withme.
I really love that.
So, Molly, such a pleasure tohave you Always, always, always.
I'm sure we'll probably do itmany times because, yes,
(38:16):
Absolutely.
Anyway, we'll end here Again.
My name is Shane.
This is Men Uncaved.
We need to come out of hiding.
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