Travis Payne - Award Winning Choreographer, Dancer, Producer, Director - Manage the Moment: Conversations in Performance Psychology

Episode Transcript
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DR. Shepp (00:08):
Thanks for tuning in to Manage the Moment:
Conversations in performancepsychology.
I'm Dr.
Sari Shepphird.

Travis Payne (00:16):
You get another chance if you take it, you know,
it's really about how yourecover.
I think it's not about thefailure cause they're going to
be big ones.
I mean, you know, got to takethe big risks, big rewards and
sometimes you fall short and youknow, I think your character
shows just in how you deal withand how you move on from it.
You know, sometimes it's hard tonot hold onto it.

(00:38):
Um, but that invites fear and soI try just to remember there is
no space for fear in the room.
So just kind of go from it, growfrom it, you're not the first or
the last who'll fail.
And I think that the greatnesshas to come from that.

(00:59):
You know, you've got to fail inorder to appreciate you know,
the process and the journey.

Dr. Shepp (01:06):
You have probably heard the phrase poetry in
motion.
Not only is that how today'sguest moves on the dance stage,
it's how he enables others tomove as well.
Emmy nominated and multipleaward winning choreographer.
Travis Payne has worked withartists, Lady Gaga, Beyonce,
Usher, Madonna, Prince, JenniferLopez, Jessica Simpson, Janet

(01:29):
Jackson, Michael Jackson, MariahCarey, as well as on multiple
sport event half- time shows,award shows, Dancing with the
Stars, Cirque du Soleil andmany, many other artistic
contributions; helping each andevery one of his clients to move
in ways that mesmerize,entertain, and even inspire.
Travis is the recipient of threeMTV awards, two Emmy

(01:51):
nominations, two Bob Fosse,American choreography awards,
and more.
Travis's art and work rangesfrom being an acclaimed dancer
and award-winning choreographeras well as an artistic director,
producer, and apparel designer.
For some of you, thisconversation may feel like a
masterclass for others.
It's an Easter egg.

(02:12):
Feast of stories from Travis isa claimed career for me.
It was a distinct pleasure and Ihope you will take the pleasure
as well of enjoying thisconversation with Travis Payne.
Hey Travis, thanks so much fortaking the time to be with me
today.

My pleasure, Siri.
Thank you for having me.

Dr. Shepp (02:29):
Absolutely.
I'm really excited to talk toyou because your background
shares a love that I have, whichis a love for dance.
Um, I'm certainly not aprofessional dancer, nor do I
have even a fraction of yourtalent, but I have a passion for
it and, and have since I wasyoung.
So I'm really excited just totalk with you as someone who
loves the art that you havedevoted your life to.

(02:52):
And also just to get a sense ofhow you've approached your work,
um, over the course of time.
But you started dancing, youwere quite young.
I think it was four or fiveyears old.

[inaudible] first of all, you're very kind.
I appreciate your kind words andit's my pleasure to talk to you.
Yeah, dance has been a part ofmy life since I can first
remember.
But yeah, I started sort of, youknow, wiggling around, uh, to
music at about four years old.

Dr. Shepp (03:18):
And do you recall what it was about dance when you
first began?
I mean, of course when you'rethat little, you're just being
dropped off and going through,going through the motions of, of
, um, just learning how to moveto music, but at some point or
another, um, in your developmentas a dancer, you must've
connected and found a passionfor it.
Do you recall what that was likeas you were developing your own

(03:40):
love for dance?

Yes, there were a few things.
I mean, music has always been abig influence in my life.
My father had a very extensivecollection of, of, um, LPs and
CDs, probably one of the biggestin Atlanta where I'm from at the
time.
And he had a lot of friends andthey all enjoyed collecting
musical equipment and albums.

(04:01):
So I heard different types ofmusic from an early age.
And my mother also, um, was aninstrumentalist.
Her, her main instrument was theflute, but she was band director
and you know, worked in thesymphony orchestra, um, where
she was from in new Orleans.
And so it was just kinda there.
And then I had a sister who wasa cheerleader and you know, a

(04:24):
lot of just influences around meand I just always remember
moving and, and part of that wasalso my love of gymnastics or
tumbling, you know, back flipsand such.
So where I was from, um, I wentoutside and we had this sort of
sloped Hill front yard and Icould get a lot of momentum and
start tumbling.

(04:45):
And so early on I just had alove for that, you know,
tumbling, jumping, you know,flight and then you know,
started to actually train veryseriously at night.

Dr. Shepp (04:58):
And when you were nine years old and wanted to
train more seriously, was it atthat early age that you wanted
to devote your life to dance or,or was it that you didn't really
have a sense of a goal or whereyou would, where you would take
it, you just wanted to be moreinvolved with it?

Well, I think it was in my blood, but I also knew
growing up as I'm the youngestof four kids, but there was an
age gap.
So it was like I was only childand my mother's only child.
So I was always, um, having tofind ways to sort of entertain
myself and I wasn't very muchinto the team sports.

(05:33):
Um, but I loved sort of theindividual things like running
and stuff like that.
And when I would see, I believeit was ABC's wide world of
sports and there was acombination of diving, ice
skating and gymnastics thatreally sort of hooked me in,
knew that individual movementwas there and that's what I

(05:55):
wanted to do.
You, I got the opportunity whenone of my father's former
students, um, who was my veryfirst dance instructor, normal
bell Mitchell out of Atlanta,asked him to let me come to a
dance classes and he said, no,of course, because men at that
time, my mum, my dad was born in1921 so for him, you know, a son

(06:19):
that dances, let alone a careerin dance was the furthest thing
from his mind at the beginning.
And so after my parents splitand I returned back to Atlanta
from about a year living in LA,I asked if I could go and he
took me and it was great.
And so I just fell in love.
And of course shortly after that, um, we're probably around the

(06:41):
same time, you know, I beenintroduced to the Jacksons.
They had a Saturday morningcartoon, you know, they had huge
hits, huge records.
I think the first album I everbought was the destiny album,
um, by the Jacksons.
And it was like a combination ofall those things and especially
Michael that just made me knowthat that is what I want to do.

(07:04):
Didn't know how yet, but I knewit was there.

Dr. Shepp (07:06):
You've mentioned just a few things that I already want
to pull apart.
They're there because there'ssomething that you connected to
about what you saw others doing.
Um, as you mentioned, you were,you were watching some of the
moves of the Jacksons and, andyou wanted to do that.
Um, but something inside of youalso thought that you could

Oh yeah.
Oh yeah.
Because I think that the, youknow, and this is just reminds
me of something that I mean Iguess would have come much
later, but part of the reasoningand psychology behind the
movement that I got to createwith Michael is that it needs to
be easy enough for pupil tolearn it, but innovative,
innovative enough that they wantto.

(07:46):
So I think that that, you know,I guess worked on me really
short films, smooth criminal andall of that, jumping ahead.
But you know, all of thatinformation definitely, you
know, helped guide me, you know,in the path that I just was much
more comfortable in than some ofthe others that, you know, for a

(08:09):
boy in the arts in the South,you know, uh, there teasing and
all that at first, you know, butthen when I got to a performing
arts high school that sort ofcelebrated, you know, the
diversity and the arts and, youknow, all that goes with it.
You know, that was the communityI started to thrive in.

Dr. Shepp (08:31):
I grew up in a, in a town where the diver, Greg
Louganis went to high school.
Um, and you mentioned divingand, yup.
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
He's, he's an artist that I'vealways admired because he
combined, um, the classicalmovement of dance with diving

and the athleticism necessary for that
competition and nerves of steel.
Yeah,

Dr. Shepp (08:53):
absolutely.
Um, but was a thing of beauty to

be able to, to watch him dive.
And it's interesting that youfound some of your inspiration
in some of those artisticsports.
Oh, absolutely.
I mean, speaking to mr Louganis,I got a chance to meet him at a
USC school of medicine workshopa few years ago.
Got him to sign a copy of hisbook and everything.
I've been a fan since thebeginning with him, you know,

(09:17):
because certainly I could pointthem out, you know, and it got
to meet Oksana Baiul who was,you know, a huge, huge figure
skater at that time.
You know, so a lot of thesepeople who are my heroes in the
sports world, you know, I got tomeet when I came to Hollywood
and likewise many of my danceheroes I got to meet as well.
And it was, um, just, uh, it washeaven for me when I got to LA.

(09:41):
I felt like I could really do ithere.
You know, of course, growing upin Atlanta, your goal is New
York, you know, Alvin Aileydance theater of Harlem, um, you
know, um, Arthur Mitchell andall of that.
Judith Jamison, you know, andum, it was just a, I suppose,

(10:04):
destiny that I'd wind up in LAinstead of New York.
Um, because one of my dearfriends that I grew up with
dancing, um, with Laurie Warnerfrom Atlanta.
Um, she and I, I think we metwhen we were like teens and then
wound up going to high schooltogether, performing together.

(10:25):
And she was the first to makethe move to LA.
And when she came back, um,after being here a year, it was
my, I think, senior year in highschool and I will never forget
she got off the bus and she'dalways been very, you know,
flashy and just clearly a starin born for this, you know, from
a young age.
But when she came back there wasa sense of accomplishment.

(10:47):
And, you know, it wasn'tcockiness, it was confidence and
you could see that she wasfinding her moment and I looked
at her and I was like, what, youknow, who is this girl?
She was like, listen, if youwant to, you know, I know we've
always imagined going in NewYork, but if you want to be in

(11:08):
classes and if you want to dothat and the theater and the be
in the company, that's great.
But if you want to, you know,actually make money and travel
and you know, tour and have, youknow, such exciting experiences,
you should move to Hollywood.
And so from that moment on, Iwas like, okay, yup.
And I knew that's where MichaelJackson lived and I was like,

(11:28):
it's done.
So yeah, that was good.
That was it.
She helped me make the decision.
Unfortunately, I had a, uh,uncle, my dear uncle Claude, um,
uh, who lived here and I'dgotten a scholarship to go to
Cal arts, which is up by magicmountain.

(11:51):
Uh, I got out here and you know,went to Cal arts for a day.
It was entirely too far, too faraway.
Working in addition for PaulaAbdul and you know, my first
audition, I was next to JenniferLopez and Adam Shankman and you
know, and I was just able to seethat, wow, everybody here is

(12:12):
really different and everybodyhere really is sort of the best
from their hometown.
And so now you know, you reallyfind out like how you measure
and you know, how, how preparedyou are, you know, in those
first auditions.
And I, and I was fortunate thatI'd had the training, um, from

(12:33):
Norman Mitchell and Dan afterthat.
Gary Harrison that yeah, I couldcompete and you know, was able
to book jobs but still was a,you know, college student.
And so I would come out here onthe weekends and audition and
just take class and then be backat school, um, you know, Sunday
night for Monday.
And I did that like my wholesenior year in high school and

(12:56):
also in like the very beginningsemester of college.
And then at my second semesterof college, I just made the
move.
And I think that February, um,Marguerite derricks hired me to
do the super show in Atlanta.
So fortunately first sort ofpaying job that I got, I was

(13:21):
able to use that money to movefrom Atlanta to LA cause the job
was in Atlanta.
And so everything just sort oflined up and it was, um, it was
really, it was really good.
Uh, I loved my transition outhere and I think that it was at
the perfect time cause a lot ofkids, you know, I think it's
good to come early and see ifit's for you, you know, um, you

(13:45):
know, a lot of people,especially when I was growing
up, it was necessary to docollege and many of my friends
did it and have that experience,but realize that they still
wanted a career in the arts andso they got a little bit of a
later start, you know, causeit's so competitive.
So I'm really, I was on, I neverwas sort of fearful of it or

(14:07):
unsure.
I'm just happy that I thinkthere was a little bit of
naivete and just a lot of, uh,confidence and excitement that
made me say, Hey, you know, inthat moment I decided and did it
and it was worth it.

Dr. Shepp (14:26):
And I'm hearing someone who sounds very
confident, um, even from a youngage.
And, and did the confidence comebecause you, you mentioned you
had to overcome some teasing andsome of the things that might've
chipped away a little bit, butdid the confidence come because
you just knew what you wanted todo and you were going to devote
yourself to making it happen?
Was it because you receivedfeedback from your instructors

(14:47):
that you had talent?
What, where did that confidencecome from?

I think that, I mean certainly my parents
encouraged me to just be thebest at whatever it was, you
know, even while we werefiguring that out, whether it
be, you know, a career in theeducational field or this
entertainment thing that Ididn't really know a lot about
nor that day.
But I think that my dancingbecame a, you know, sort of

(15:13):
armor for me.
You know, because I can enterthe talent show, I could win it,
I could be the mascot andtumble, you know, that adulation
from my ability sometimes sortof shielded the teasing, if that
makes sense.
So it was a, an S in a defensemechanism and I just happened to

(15:35):
be good at it and felt, youknow, gratitude in those moments
where I could perform like areally, really enjoyed it.
And fortunately in my, in my, inmy city, there was a performing
arts school, a North side schoolof the arts that there was a
bunch of kids who had a bunch ofdifferent talents and uh, RuPaul

(15:59):
went there.
Um, Jasmine guy went there.
Um, we have opera singers, uh,that went there, actors, you
know, dancers and you know, itwas a great sort of home to
nurture us who might've been onthe fringe, you know, in other
places because of the arts inour neighborhoods.

(16:19):
And that did give me a certainamount of confidence, you know,
once I got there.
And in just seeing, you know,guys dancing on TV, you know,
growing up when I started atnine and ballet and tap and jazz
and African and modern, I wasthe only guy in the class.
So I didn't see a lot of guysdancing.
And it wasn't until I got tohigh school where my instructor,

(16:42):
Gary, you know, um, reallyopened my eyes to what was
possible.
You know, I learned aboutBaryshnikov and about Farsi and
you know,[inaudible] and youknow, I got to, um, have classes
and work with Michael Peters whowas at the height of his
thriller fame when I was in theninth grade.

(17:04):
And it was the Coca ColaCentennial celebration.
It was happening in Atlanta.
Our school was the rehearsalspace and we had this, you know,
performing arts class of, ofstudents.
And then new dancers came fromNew York and LA.
And, you know, I got to meetEartha who I'd always seen him
fame, you know, and Robin andEdgar and you know, people that

(17:26):
I would go on and still havegreat relationships with from
back then.
Um, like, so I think it wasthose early experiences that
helped me, you know, make adecision and, and be very clear
in what it needed to be and, um,and just be open, you know, to
what it would take to get there.

(17:47):
And just being prepared like Ibefore, I think, and I say that
to young people all the timewhen I speak, it's like, you
know, if you stay ready, youdon't have to get ready.
And I try to, you know, sort oflive by that.
I think it's important.

Dr. Shepp (18:09):
That's great advice too, because you studied, you
learned, you prepared for youreventual success and it, I can
hear how, how dedicated you musthave been to your preparation.

And it was, you know, I wasn't a football guy, I
wasn't a baseball guy.
I wouldn't have basketball guy.
You know, I certainly wasn't afighter, you know, but I could
dance and you know, the girlsliked me.
So that meant the guys were, youknow, wanting to be, you know
what I mean?
For me, you know, so, you know,I found my way and dancing

(18:42):
certainly helped.

Dr. Shepp (18:44):
Right.
So you mentioned Michael Petersand a number of your
instructors.
You're talking about the best ofthe best.
I am sure that you learned fromDebbie Allen,

Frank chair, you know, Lester Wilson, you know,
um, there was so many, I said,Marguerite, you know, early on
there was Jackie's slate slate.
Um, and certainly, uh, clawThompson and uh, Stanley's and
Pacos, um, uh, Billy Dan's morefrom Atlanta.

(19:17):
He was the creative director formy high school.
And, um, we actually had atouring company and the first
time I had gotten to go to Asia,I was in maybe the 10th grade.
And you know, that started mylove affair with Asia, but we
had this company calledAtlanta's Coke is it kids?

(19:39):
And so we were sponsored by CokeAmerican express.
And at the time I think Sabenaairlines and we got to go to,
you know, Europe and Asia andperform in cathedrals and in the
airports and you know, have allthese experiences and really get

(19:59):
sort of world-class exposure at,um, such a young age, you know,
to be able to see what theculture was like.
This was before the internet,you know, we were very much into
encyclopedias and the librarythen.
Um, and so to have points ofreference that are like actually
getting to go into, you know,the big Ben or these landmarks

(20:24):
that many kids our age, youknow, maybe still haven't seen
as adults, um, I think wassuper, super valuable.

Dr. Shepp (20:33):
Sure.
That, that, um, worldexperience, but also the
experience of being in placeswhere the critique was probably
greater.
I'm imagining.
Um, and, and maybe the pressure.

Absolutely.
And you know, Gary Harrisonespecially was very hard on all
of us, you know, and we didn'tknow it at the time, but he's
preparing us and giving us toughskin, you know, cause along with
success comes even morerejection really.
Um, so I thank him for that, youknow, and he was able to have

(21:04):
some success, um, you know,nationally and internationally
too with his company.
Um, Gary Harrison, Dan's companyand a lot of great talents, you
know, came through there, youknow, and Fon chambers wound up
being out here.
And, um, she came from thecompany and you know, later was
able to join me on tour withMichael Jackson for history.

(21:25):
Um, as did Laurie Warner, youknow, my dear friend who's the
one that told me to move to LA,you know, to get to have that
full circle moment with her, um,with Michael, you know, as, uh,
with me as one of hischoreographers, um, you know,
was wonderful.
And to be able to also get myhero, Desmond Richardson in the
fold, you know, eventually wasawesome.

(21:48):
You know, and I, I, I look atthose moments and think like,
Whoa, it's very cool.
And I have been, you know,reflecting and going through
photos.
It'll be 30 years that I'velived in Los Angeles this
February.
Oh my goodness.
Yeah.
So, you know, this, this, uh,opportunity and others coming to
great time cause I, I do enjoyreflecting at this point and,

(22:11):
um, you know, just in, in andmaking new goals.
What are some of those newgoals?
Oh, film and TV direction.
I've been, um, developingproperties and content for
streaming and television.
And you know, my filmdirectorial debut all of my own
and you know, managing artists.

(22:33):
I have a shoe line that I'm veryexcited about that's entering
its fifth year.
I was looking at it and whereare the women's shoes, Travis?
Because you got to understand isthat I go from male four to 13
and they're yours and yeah,certain styles of unisex and the
beauty is that they'recustomizable.
So I've even done pink patentleather with, you know, silver

(22:57):
piping.
You know, I've done green suedewith pink, you know, crocodile,
you know, so that, that part ofthe story is to come.
That's one of the things I'mworking on a very passionate
about because like other people,I haven't been able to convey
the full sort of, um, the rangeof what the, what the shoe

(23:19):
project is about yet.
But that's my partnership withrunic.
They're out of Italy and I metthem when creating custom shoes
for this.
Is it for Michael to perform it?
Oh, how interesting.
Yeah, I'm always checking thoseout again.

(23:39):
You know, they have anInstagram, both of the Instagram
and the website or Travis Payneapparel and you know, it's very
exciting, some very excitingthings coming up, been able to
film, um, dancers in differentparts of the world.
And, um, you know, the newcampaign will feature, um, uh,
one more of those artists thatI've found.

Dr. Shepp (24:00):
No.
Great.
Well, speaking of campaigns, I'mgoing to jump around a little
bit, but your work has been, hasbeen sprinkled into our lives
whether we know it or not.
Um, because I, I, I believe I'maccurate.
When I mentioned the, the gapkhakis, swing ad

Speaker 4 (24:21):
looks like a spider jump, Java, Java, Java.

Dr. Shepp (24:47):
Um, yeah.
And this, this is something thatkind of revolutionized
advertising and when it's inour, our minds and our, our
footsteps for quite awhile whenthat commercial came out.
But, but, um, you've beeninvolved in so many different
projects.
Um, you've staged world tours,music, videos, film.
How do the tasks differ in yourmind?
Do you approach the varioustasks with, um, a great degree

(25:12):
of similarity?
Are, are there differencesdepending on the demand that
stand out to you?

Well, to talk about gap for a moment that was
with my dear friend, MatthewRalston, world famous director
and photographer who, you know,took me under his wing.
You know, I think I was maybe 19or 20.
The first thing I everchoreographed as part of a team,
um, was invoke my loving, you'renever going to get it, which was

(25:37):
the first of four MTV awardsthat I was able to win with my
creative partners during thoseprojects.
And Matthew, um, we're stilldifference today and you know, I
got to learn, you know, um, alot of on the job training, you
know, he would work in differentsituations.
We, you know, one day it'd bewith models, you know, like

(25:59):
Cindy Crawford and ClaudiaSchiffer, you know, uh, the next
day to be with Marilyn Manson ona video.
The next day it's more the nextday it's, you know, Lenny
Kravitz, you know, and then thegap commercial.
And I said, Matthew, you know,this is very, very, very cool,
but this is like, I'm kind ofold school dance.
He was like, right.

(26:20):
And you have about a week tolearn it for research, you know,
figure it out and you know,we'll go from there.
So it wound up being, you know,one of the most popular
commercials in that time.
And I was very, very grateful,you know, to collaborate with
Neesha folks on it and to go tothe Derby and silver Lake, um,

(26:45):
uh, Las villas during the,during that time and really
immersed myself in the world andmeet a lot of great, you know,
performance Christian Perry.
Um, and I had friends, uh,Gustavo Vargas and Ellison fuck,
who were just great partnerdancers and sort of helped
Stacey and I mold vet stuff aswell as, um, uh, who else was

(27:06):
there?
Karen Dyer was there at thattime, I think.
And I believe this was maybebefore I even started working
with Stacy Walker.
Yeah.
So it was, it was a while we,from that job and swing dance
the next year or two, you know,we were booking all of these
swing jobs and Stacy and I gotto do many things like with
Brian Setzer and with film and,and um, let's see, what was it,

(27:29):
Stuart little and you know, nevCampbell and we just got to sort
of work in that world.
Um, but Christian Perry wasreally invaluable during that
time.
I just loved the way he mixedwhat looked like sort of like
street dance with his swingdance and how competitive and
how committed they all were.

(27:50):
You know, the girls did a redlip all the time and they were
always dressed to the nines andthe guys, you know, were always
in, you know, there's Zoot suitsor the suspenders or the wingtip
shoes, you know, their vehicles.
They drove for vintage.
So it's like, it was, it was thestorytelling.
Like they really lived, youknow, their, their sort of their

(28:13):
world.
And I, and I respected that somuch.
But um, yeah, the world tours,getting to just do all those
things.
I mean, Kenny Ortega means somuch to me and still does.
I got to work with Joseph Khanand Chris Applebom and Mark
romantic and you know, RandySaint Nicholas and all of these

(28:33):
great, you know, directors who,and Nigel Dick all had different
approaches when I show him andbeing able to see, alright, this
really works.
That really works.
I love how, you know, Nigel Dickwill get in there and sort of
carry equipment.
I love how Matthew Austin isgoing gonna make the, you know,
the set really aestheticallypleasing and it's going to be

(28:56):
comfortable and efficient, youknow, and just all those
textures and things in it andlet alone the artists that, you
know, we got to collaborate onthose projects with, you know,
there's always some nugget, youknow, of knowledge that I can
get from, you know, anysituation.
It's just the list of peoplethat you've mentioned and worked

(29:17):
with and learn from.
I, I imagine your education hasbeen quite amazing.
Um, was, was Janet Jackson'srhythm nation tour your first
tour?
Yes, it was my first big, youknow, thing.
And it was such a blessing.
I remember being a, um, maybe 18years old in Atlanta and dancing

(29:43):
in Gary Harrison's dance company, uh, at the Fox theater and it
was around this time for aChristmas show and a gentleman
by the name of Frank Gatson camebackstage and met me and was
like, I think you are verytalented.
Um, I had also met Frank hatchetfrom New York and they knew each

(30:06):
other and Frank was working withLavelle Smith who was on the
rhythm nation tour and in therhythm nation videos as and as a
dancer and one of thechoreographers.
So instantly I was veryfascinated and got the
opportunity to start coming toLos Angeles and meeting people

(30:28):
and you know, being around andseeing Janet's tour.
Cause I met Lavelle and so I'dgotten to see maybe 10 of her
concerts and it became time forAnthony Thomas, who was the
creator and creative director atthat time with a Rene Elizondo

(30:50):
for Janet Jackson.
And it was time for Anthony tomove on.
He had spent several years withJanet in creation of the music
and the visuals and the conceptfor the album.
Um, you know, in and aroundMinneapolis with Jimmy jam and
Terry Lewis and Janet and it wastime he had the rhythm nation.

(31:11):
It hit, it was a massivesuccess.
He was getting opportunities tochoreograph other artists and
projects and he decided it wastime for him to leave and
Lavelle told me that Anthony wasleaving.
The very next day we went to the, uh, uh, at that time you could
go rent a video camera, like a,like a high end, you know, good

(31:35):
quality camera.
So we rented a camera, I wentinto the record ball court at
the apartments we lived in andmade a videotape of myself doing
all of her numbers with my ownversion of the costumes and sent
it to her.
And within about a week I wasgoing to Tokyo to join them.

(31:55):
My first show was at the Tokyodome.
I had just been there as a highschool student and was back
there, you know, as a gen edJackson rhythm nation dancer.
And so that was really myintroduction onto the world
stage, you know, as, as afeature, you know, and so I
always credit Janet for thatexperience.

(32:16):
And then I toured with her forawhile.
And I think that, you know,working with her really, you
know, taught me the, like thetouring life and scheduling and
traveling between cities and,you know, sort of tempering your
energy on days off so you can,you know, get through the shows

(32:39):
on show days and, you know,different foods and different
languages.
And it was just all so wonderfuland, and, um, and really helped
me to just sort of meet so manyimportant people, you know.
And I think that, you know, oneof those people was Lavelle
Smith jr who for many years, um,was a very close confidant and,

(33:02):
and, and working partner,creative partner.
And, um, you know, it was he whoalso introduced me to Michael.
And that was, um, in 92.
Yeah, 1992 and we did, uh,remember the time short film.
And then right after that I wasable to, um, join the dangerous

(33:25):
tour, which was already in fullswing.
But again, one of the performers, uh, was leaving the tour,
Randy layer, who owns, um, theedge performing arts center here
in LA with bill prudish andyeah.
And so I was able to, uh, youknow, step in because I knew the

(33:46):
information being such a bigfan.
I mean, the first tour I went towas the victory tour, um, ever,
you know, as a, as a kid.
And so it had just been like,you know, and Michael and I
laughed about this, but mymorning ritual was cereal
frosted flakes.
At what?

(34:06):
Smooth criminal at watch, youknow, Motown 25, I go school, I
come home and I'd probably watchbeat it then I'd have to watch,
then I have to watch rhythmnation, you know.
And so we would joke whensomething needed to be better,
we would say in these morecereal, you know, it needs more
time and attention.

(34:27):
Um, and so it was like, yeah, I,I was, I was ready.
It was, I F I really feel like,not even in a cocky way, just I
feel so fortunate to have gottenthe information early enough to
be able to make the decisionthat that's what I want to do.
You know, um, you know, Michaellive at the Omni in Atlanta, uh,

(34:49):
with his brothers and then againon the bad tour, you know, I was
like, wow, they're likesuperheroes.
Those are guys dancing.
You know, it wasn't LA, but itwas balletic, you know, it
wasn't proper jazz, but it hadthe essence of it, you know, but
it was rock and roll mixed alltogether.
That's what got me excited.

Dr. Shepp (35:09):
Uh, Michael Jackson is also known as being a, a
field answer.
He wasn't somebody who, whocounted out steps.
Um, but, but let the music kindof dictate where he would go.
So would you describe yourselfas a dancer who is more of a
field answer?

I think I had to do both.
Okay.
For example, in, remember thetime, um, which was
choreographed by FA Tema and thelaptops for team a Robinson and
a mop tops team.
I'm from New York.
And some members from LA andthey were a completely feel
group and it was a directed bythe great John Singleton start,

(35:48):
Eddie Murphy, mind magicJohnson.
It was a dream job, but for Temathe mop tops her group, they
were feel dancers.
The LA dancers need accounts.
Okay.
So one of the things I got to dowas learn their feel and then
break it down into counts andhelp and assist her and the team

(36:11):
in instructing the LA dancers.
And so that became one of mystrong suits that I could sort
of kind of hover between bothsides.
You know, having the technicaltraining and very aware of
counts, but then getting in asituation where you need to feel
the music because theinterpretation of the music is

(36:33):
oftentimes more important thanthe counts.
You use the counts just totranslate the information and
then the music helps you moldthe sort of feeling of the
movement.

Dr. Shepp (36:42):
So

Speaker 5 (36:47):
[inaudible]

and so that became , um, you know, something that
was very good at doing.
And, um, yeah, I think, I thinksort of the best of both worlds
is going to make any dancerstand out.

Dr. Shepp (37:02):
Now how do you translate that to just the
variety of personalities thatyou've worked with?
Because I imagine you know,someone like usher, Beyonce, um,
maybe they've had some morebackground in dance.
They, they could understand theidea of feel.
My guess is that Marilyn Mansonmight not have as much
connection to the fields as hemight need more of the count,

(37:23):
but how do you adapt to thosedifferent personalities as a
choreographer?
And obviously you want toencourage the connection to the
music and the feel, but, but youstill have to be able to adapt
to different, different, um,personalities and different
approaches.

[inaudible] well, going in order.
So usher, I just spoke to lastweek actually, and we were
talking about that very thingthat this generation sometimes
doesn't understand the nuanceand the setup.
Yes, they're going to have agreat, you know, four counts of
eight counts of eightcombination, you know, or chunk.

(38:00):
But how do you get into it andout of it, how do you share that
on different people and whatdynamics can you give it?
You know, and if you think of itin terms of how the music is and
it has different vocalarrangements and parts that fly
through it, and how can youinterpret that out of that one
chunk of choreography.
And sometimes people don't, youknow, but coming from the

(38:23):
Michael Jackson sort of era andyou know, before him Fauci and
Astaire and you know, thosegreat Sammy Davis jr Jackie
Wilson, James Brown, you know,it's in between stuff that's
important.
Yes.
You know, not always the counts,it's what you're not doing.
Sometimes the negative spacehelps.
The moves look better.

(38:45):
Um, and so that's one thing.
And with us, you're having theskill set that he does and also
a tumbler.
Certainly when he first startedit made it easier to communicate
with him.
Beyonce, just a natural, youknow, she is still astounds me
with how good she continues tobe.

(39:07):
Um, you know, but we have a lotof the same creative team in
common.
Lavelle Smith.
Frank Gatson and then later on,you know, Chris grant Jaquelle
night, you know, and we're allin there connected, you know,
Jackwell is even from Atlanta aswell, you know, and it's his
moment now, you know, and he andChris have been able to do
amazing things with Beyonce, youknow, and Chris was the first

(39:27):
person we hired for this is it,and was also, you know, sort of
introduced to LA by Frank.
So there's a lot of sort ofcommonality between the song and
I think that that's not amistake.
Um, and then Marilyn Manson forhim, I just went into his world,

(39:47):
you know, and that was anotherone with Matthew Ralston.
Um, it was for the spawnsoundtrack.
The song is long, hard road outof Hill.
So just getting into Brian as heinsisted on being calling, being
called personality started toinform me of how he should move.
Okay.
And all right, he's going to bewearing this eight foot gown and

(40:10):
standing on, you know, thisladder and you know, be, you
know, 10 feet tall.
Okay, great.
So that means that the thingsneed to be sweeping.
And he's gonna look like a hugestatue.
Okay.
So he's going to be gender Bindywith nails and hair and, okay,
well what if, what is the golfsort of like, you know, really

(40:31):
when I saw my left scent, itreminded me of how I was
thinking of Manson in thatvideo.
Does that make sense?
It was just this sort of likecalled Darren and sort of witchy
but really glamorous and youknow, dark but fabulous and you
know, so all of those things,like even with my creative
process, it's about words orcolors or shapes, you know.

(40:55):
Um, and so that was how Iapplied it to Marilyn Manson.
And I still love that videostill.
Um, but yeah, so at the end andeach experience is different,
but what is common is that themusic is going to dictate it.
The personality of the person,you know, once they're
comfortable and are open tomovement because not everyone is

(41:20):
at first, you know, Halle Berry,it took a moment with her.
She is gorgeous as she is,doesn't walk around flicking her
hair and finding angles of herface and delivering lines in a,
you know, beauty ad.
But we were able to play on herstrengths and things that she
was comfortable with and keywords that would make her think

(41:41):
of a certain thing that youknow, it, it was just, we create
a shorthand all of that to saythat we create a shorthand with,
with whatever, whoever theclient is, we create a shorthand
so that we can refer to things.
You know, Mariah Carey, it wasfor her.
Once we can find the, for theshot, we find the right angle of

(42:02):
her body.
We get in that angle and then wejust work around, you know, in
that axis.
And I might be on the other sideof the camera, just sort of
moving, offering her shape,suggestions, and then I'll hold
the shape and then through herperformance she'll get it to the
shape and move through theshape.
And then we just do the wholething again.
You know, so I call thatmovement styling.

(42:24):
So I've got to have a large, youknow, part of that in my career
too.
You know, especially withworking with artists, like Lenny
Kravitz who's, you're not goingto get counts too, but you'll
say, Hey, when you say you know,Jesus, you know, your arms are
going to stretch out.
Like you're taking a big hug andthen you come in and you know,
if we're saying you know thesongs about his mother and he's

(42:44):
looking at imagery of her andyou know, how does that make you
feel?
You know, he says, it makes memelt.
Okay, well melt down the wall.
You know?
So we've, we've associate,we've, we've identified a key
word to associate with anaction.
So in the take I can just saymelt and there he'll know what
that means, you know?
So a lot of those things arekind of shortcuts, especially

(43:07):
when you don't have a lot ofrehearsal time.
You know, when the artist showsup and might not be necessarily
open to learn in a bunch ofdance moves.
But there's always this sort ofrange, the spectrum of movement
that we can do that'sappropriate for the moment.

Dr. Shepp (43:23):
Yeah.
A lot of those shortcuts we usein performance psychology to be
able to find what connects, um,for the particular genre, um,
and performer and then makethose shortcuts performance.
Well, I can hear it.
I can hear that.
That you, um, you're apsychologist too because you're
connecting with, um, the folksthat you're working with.

(43:44):
You're drawing out what theywould naturally gravitate to and
in, in choreography and indirection.
Um, it's such an asset if youcan connect to who you're
working with and then have itfeel more natural for them.
And I think that that translatesinto much better work.

I do too.
I mean, it reminds me of workingwith kids too.
You know, they're not going toalways understand sort of the
big words and nuance that comewith it.
You know.
So you might have to create aseries of, you know, patterns
and then just put numbers tothem or give them names like
sugar cookie or you know, youknow, rattlesnake or you know,

(44:23):
and keywords.
And then they'll know how to rereact.
Yeah, exactly.

Dr. Shepp (44:32):
Well, you've hinted a few times at one of your most
longstanding collaborations withJanet's brother Michael.
Um, and you mentioned that youstarted in the dangerous tour,
but I know that collaborationlasted until, um, the end of his
life.
And I imagine the twists andturns and the, and what you

(44:52):
learned over that time is toomuch to put into words.
But I know that you've mentionedbefore that with Michael
Jackson, you were encouraged togo outside the box.
Um, you've said with him therewere no, no boundaries, no
limits.
You could think as big as animpressive and as impressive as
you wanted to.
So what would it, was it likegoing from, um, the background

(45:15):
where everything of courseneeded to be learned in, in
steps and, and with the basicsto find yourself at a point in
your career where you couldthink as as big as you want it
to?
Charlie and the chocolatefactory, literally, literally
first DVD I ever bought wasWilly Wonka.

(45:37):
[inaudible].
I got the golden ticket.
I did, I did.

And later for the auditions for this is it, I
would simulate it thatexperience again for this new
group.
You know, when we did aworldwide search and you know,
the golden tickets where they'rein their responses to their
video submissions, inviting themto LA, um, for a weekend of

(46:01):
auditions with Michael, 5,000people showed up and you know,
those that were chosen found outright there in the moment, just
like, you know, the end ofCharlie's movie.
Um, and so to really kind ofquantify my experience with
Michael Jackson, it was verymuch like that, you know,
everything's bigger and louderand more elaborate.

(46:25):
And it was purposeful.
That was what was cool about it.
It wasn't just big for the sakeof being big.
It was big because it messed theidea in the moment.
And because Michael insisted onus, thinking outside of the box,
whoever it was, you know, fromwardrobe to sound design, you
know, to the dance, to even thesurface of the floor, even the

(46:48):
type of chords that are goinginto, you know, the amps for the
sound department.
It was, he cared about everydetail and set the stage for
excellence in the creativeprocess.
And sometimes the ideas were sogreat that the technology didn't
exist before.

(47:09):
Like ghosts for example.
We started it with a totallydifferent group of dancers,
totally different choreography,totally different set of songs.
And as we got into the process,realized that it wasn't looking
like, you know, Michael hadimagined along with the, um, uh,
Stan Winston and, um, and, andLavelle and I got to work very

(47:34):
closely with he and Stan andalso Barry Lazar and Courtney
Miller, uh, and Richmond andTony Tyler, Waco.
Um, and we stopped that firstset and then we started again
years later when the, you know,CGI technology had caught up to
the ideas.
And, you know, that's why whenyou look at it now and then, Oh,

(47:58):
and then after we completed it,it still didn't come out in
America for like another decade,you know?
Yeah.
It was at least five years orsix years.
It was a while.
It was a, it was quite awhile.
I think we did it in 96 and um,yeah, we didn't see it until, I
think at least sometime in themid two thousands or early two

(48:21):
thousands.
You could check that for sure.
But I know we waited and wenever saw it.
We saw it on screen in Japancause we went there to launch.
Um, but then nothing in Americauntil, um, you know, years
later.
Uh, and it still lasted, youknow, and, and holds us on,

(48:43):
holds its own.
Today.
I got to go a couple of yearsago, um, there was a Michael
Jackson scream album and therewas, I think it was Halloween
before last maybe.
And uh, ghosts was shown in thetheaters there and that was
like, wow, he would be so proud,you know, to see people now, you

(49:04):
know, in whatever.
I think it was maybe 2017 or 18,seeing it, you know, as it had
been intended.
Um, you know, in a theater onthe big screen.
Yeah.
And to see it at Grumman'sChinese theater was just, you
know, it was a special, specialmoment.
I'm sure I watched the, themaking of ghosts and I recall a

(49:27):
time when you, pardon me, thankVH1.
Did it.
Oh, did they?
Okay.
Um, and I recall when MichaelJackson was asking you, um, is
that the best you can do right.
And, um, and I'm sure youbrought your best every day and
yet you were being asked to, todig as deep as you as you could.

(49:51):
Was that something that you,that you welcomed, that you
loved and wanted to hear or didyou feel like it was pressure?
How did you respond to, to thosekinds of asks?
Oh, both.
I mean, of course I wanted tohear it because that gave me,
it's weird, some comfort in himhaving that much confidence to
keep pushing cause he knowssomething's left.

(50:13):
Right.
So that's the one hand.
But on the other hand, of courseit was pressure in the moment,
you know, but I trusted hisinstincts enough to know that.
All right, I got to follow him.
You know, I got to follow himthrough this and[inaudible] stay
steadfast cause we always cameout on the other side, um, with,

(50:33):
with a great piece of memorable,you know, filmed art and you
know, it would have been lovelyto be able to do the same with
this is it, you know, butunfortunately that wasn't, um,
you know what?
Go ahead and store

Speaker 6 (50:59):
[inaudible]

Dr. Shepp (51:00):
to contrast that with when you would be on tour and
you would be performing songsthat had been performed on stage
for decades and that, that fanswere used to seeing at the same
time you, you had to bringsomething fresh.
It couldn't just feel like itwas getting stale.
How did you bring somethingfresh to the same pieces that
had been danced for years?

Great question.
And there was a balancing actthat was, I think a lot of the
performance psychology that I'm,I'm realizing was so apparent
all the time.
Um, certain parts you can'talter, you just better not touch
pillaging gotta be what it is,you know.

(51:45):
Um, and you better not touchthriller.
Not too much cause people havegot to see the famous
choreography.
You can dress it up different.
You can serve a different sortof um, appetizer.
I know, but the entree better bewhat people came to see and it
needs to sound like it and looklike it.
And Michael would stress thatand also say, um, you know, he

(52:10):
certainly opened the change butif it's not going to be better
then we can't change it.
You know, he would oftenreference James Brown.
He said when you go see JamesBrown, if he doesn't do the
split and the, you know, thesnaky leg and all of his dances,
you're going to leave.
They're disappointed.
So why would we change, youknow, if it's not going to be

(52:34):
better.
And I believe him, cause a lotof times before we would even
present a piece, it was the bestit could be in that moment.
And if we were not going toadvance it, he was fine with
adding to it.
But the change[inaudible] a lotof times it wouldn't.
The new ideas wouldn't stand upto the original.

(52:56):
So it was no, no need, you know.
But we did get the opportunityto expand pieces.
Like, you know, smooth criminalwas a great piece he created
with a Vince Patterson.
But then Lavelle and I got toadd to that idea with dangerous,
you know, and then, you know,rich and tone got to add to that
idea with you, rock my world,you know, the gangster sort of

(53:20):
thing.
So if you think about it,they're like on a Kestrel piece,
you know, it's like orchestralpiece with different movements.
Um, but it's the same thing.
Uh, and then to be able to comeback years later and add, you
know, things to dangerous, likegood, bad and ugly, you know,
um, samples from Janet's music,um, you know, her voice inside

(53:42):
of the composition, you know, itgave it another twist.
And for this is it, it had a newincarnation that I hate.
People, you know, never got tosee, hopefully one day that
footage will be released.
But we had yet another, um,interpretation of dangerous
prepared.
Yeah.
In 2009 that we had worked onfor the greater part of our time

(54:08):
together.
I mean dangerous, we kept goingback to it, you know, whether we
got to present those pieces ornot, you know, it was always a
work in progress.
Well, he obviously trusted you,um, both because of what you
described and how he wanted topull out the best from you.
But, um, I had spoken recently,recently with Brad boxer and he

(54:30):
said that Michael talked to veryfew people when he was on tour.
He would talk to Brad, he wouldtalk to Karen Fe, he would talk
to you and Lavelle Smith jr.
So, um, but that was about it.
And Michael Bush, of course,Michael Bush.
And then of course, security,you know, at that time it was
Wayne and Wayne Nagin and YanaKalane among others.

(54:51):
But yeah, there were, there wasa, it was a tight circle and it
was, um, you know, and that wasjust not because Michael didn't
love everybody.
It was just cause he was a shyand very, very private person.
And a lot of times ourconversations were about work.
I mean, we, we talk about ourfamilies and you know, world
events obviously, but it alwayscomes back to the idea.

(55:12):
And so I really, really valuedthose times with him.
Yeah.
Brett and I spent many, manyhours for performances and I, I
used to love those timesbecause, you know, Michael
trusted Brad with the music andtrusted us along with Lavelle to

(55:32):
reimagine it for, um, a liveperformance.
And you know, those, thoseclassic songs, I mean, to be
able to even work inside themultitrack of, uh, of dangerous,
you know, um, that Michaelproduced with Teddy Riley, um,
just was for me as, as a fan,you know, anyway, uh, was just

(55:52):
magical, you know, and hearingthe stories behind the creation
of the sound, you know, that oneBay sound that we love is maybe
a combination of five differentelements to make that one sound.
And you know, how these thingswere, you know, works of art.
They were crafted like da Vincior something, but, um, just to

(56:16):
be entrusted with those thingsor even participate in edits,
um, you know, the of the filmlike ghosts and dance and you
know, being able to have thoseopportunities and Michael would
make them competitions.
He'd have one room over hereediting, he'd have another room
over here, Lavelle and I with adifferent editor.
And then he'd be in a room withan editor and whoever made the

(56:37):
best chunks of each section,that's the section that got to
go in the final piece, you know?
And, and another, I guesspsychological lesson that I got
was, and I still do it to thisday, it's like I don't, I just
want to arrive at the best idea.
It does not have to come fromme.
We just have to get it.
We just have to find it, youknow?

(56:57):
And so that was the way Michaelwould talk to us a lot of times.
So we welcomed the challengebecause it was coming from a
loving place and we knew that ifwe were able to reach that goal,
we will have done somethingpretty awesome and hopefully,
you know, lasting and enduring.

Dr. Shepp (57:16):
And it just makes the art better when you can allow
yourself to get out of the wayand, and, and let the best rise
to the top regardless of how itgets there.
Right?

Yeah.
Oh yeah.
Don't care.
As long as we find it, that'sfine, you know, and memorialize
it, you know, because if, ifyou, it's one thing to get the,
get to have the ideas but quiteanother to be able to film it
and memorialize it and havegenerations of performers
appreciate it.
You know, I giggle so hard when,when I get, um, you know, uh,

(57:47):
messages, um, from people allover the world with showing, you
know, different generations,whether they be really old
people, which I just saw thisHalloween or a really young
person who can't even walk yet,who's just enjoying, you know,
Michael's music or one of thevideos that we did.

(58:08):
And, and, and it's, and it'sbeing filmed and you can see the
reaction.
Um, and I think that there is apsychology there, the visuals in
the music and the combination ofall of the images, you know,
really, I think at a deep, sortof even physiological, sometimes

(58:30):
even spiritual level connectwith people.
And you know, not many artistscan do that with their art.
Now, you know, temporaryartists.

Dr. Shepp (58:43):
Yeah, certainly not to that degree.
And one of the most viral videosever viewed, uh, was something
that you were involved in thePhilippines at the CPRC with the
dancing inmates who, who were,who recorded their
interpretation of thriller.
But that's, but that's anotherexample of something that
obviously not only, um, wastranslated by them but impacted

(59:08):
a lot of people who watched andI'm sure for various reasons,
but because, because there weremany levels that that one would
connect to, to see that thatgroup of people dance and iconic
, um, series of steps like that.
But it's just interesting

as you mentioned, the psychology of things that we
connected to that so deeply.
Yup.
And sort of Michael Jackson, infact, while we were in creation
for this is it, that's when Ifirst learned of the dancing
inmates of Subu and one ofMichael's fans emailed me a link
to their thriller, aperformance, and I showed it to

(59:43):
Michael and he laughed.
Riotously he loved it.
He ran around the room.
He wanted to see it at everychance we got, you know, during
breaks.
We would oftentimes watch itover and over and over.
You know, if he got tense or sador distracted, I'd play it.
You know, it helped me, youknow, in our quest to, you know,

(01:00:06):
sort of harness everyone'senergy for this show.
Cause it was a huge undertaking,no doubt.
But those moments where we gotto be with the prisoners on
video were very, very special.
So when Michael passed, um, oneof the first things I suggested
we do is go to that prison andactually teach them they don't
care about us, which Michaeloriginally filmed in a prison

(01:00:27):
years before.
Um, and let's go to this prison.
He gave them so much joy in ourcreative process and they didn't
even know it.
They should.
And so the universe just smiledon us.
Turns out that Fritz Reed, uh,Fritz Friedman, who was the, um,
president of home video forSony, made a call to, he's

(01:00:50):
Filipino.
He made a call and knows themayor who happened to be related
to warden Byron Garcia from theCPD RC.
And within a week or two, wewere in that prison meeting.
The prisoners took Daniel'scelebrity with me as well as
trace Reed from a tour.

(01:01:11):
And we went there and spent acouple of days with them
teaching the content that wasmeant to be for this is it.
And we filmed it.
And, um, I get to direct thatwith a local, um, uh, DP there
and we brought it on back.
Um, but it was a spiritualexperience in that the, one of
the days we were filming wasMartin Luther King's birthday.

(01:01:33):
It had been storming the wholeday, you know, the whole time we
were there, we went to film, youknow, it was sunny and bright.
Um, you know, you could feelthere was a, I'd like to say
Michael's energy there.
You know, all of the prisonerswere walking around, you know,
saying Michael Michael kind ofunder their breaths.
Like it was, it was, you couldfeel it.

(01:01:53):
And so it was just so magicalthat we were just as, you know,
transported as the prisonerswere, you know, it meant as
much, if not more to us.
And it just wound up being, youknow, I guess the beginning of

(01:02:16):
some healing for the loss ofanyway, and for it to be so well
received online on YouTube, um,speaks volumes and, you know, S,
you know, running into peopleand then making the connection
and, you know, it's just, itjust speaks to how music and
dance not only heal, but youknow, certainly change people's

(01:02:39):
lives and connect people.
And you know, that was rightalong with Michael Jackson's
brand and you know, really sortof having a social consciousness
to the messages, you know, andeverything having a purpose and
you know, that we had torepurpose our, this is it
performance, um, for thatexperience.

(01:03:01):
How great was it to be able toactually do, you know, the
choreography on real people andnot have to use CGI like we have
to do in the movie or in themovies, um, in the, in the
tours.
Um, but to really be able to doit in real life and capture it,
um, in the environment.
And so I, I just felt it was afitting tribute.
I got to also do a similarsituation in the Dominican

(01:03:25):
Republic.
I think that was in 2017, um,with, um, you know, homeless and
impoverished, um, dancers andkids and their families.
And we did sort of a same kindof thing, a couple of days of
flashmob rehearsals and then Ifound it and released it on
Michael's birthday.

(01:03:45):
Um, then, um, but it just, Idon't know, just a lot of those
and we wouldn't have been ableto do that if the original
pieces had not been so strong intheir messages, in their
convictions and, and, and whatthe meanings behind them were,
you know.
So with that information, itmade it possible to go have
those two experiences and otherslike them and, um, uh, continue

(01:04:08):
to,

Dr. Shepp (01:04:09):
well, another spiritual experience for many
people was the Michael JacksonMemorial service that you
choreographed helped, helps tochoreograph that took place at
the staple center.
And I was, I was there at thestaple center and it was
certainly, yes.
Yeah.
And it certainly was a spiritualexperience for many people.
Um, but, but also a chance toreflect at the impact of what

(01:04:31):
some someone's art, one person'sart and then of course, their
collaborators, how that canaffect the lives of, of people
pretty deeply.

Travis Payne (01:04:42):
I agree.
I mean, who knew we would beeven doing that?
Um, you know, but it was justlike, seemed like from one day
to the next, we were creatingwhat was to be the biggest
concert of all time.
And then, you know, havingimmediately repurpose our
efforts to this global, youknow, sort of Memorial and
farewell and then directly intoediting of what would be, this

(01:05:04):
is a documentary, um, which thengot promoted and sold.
And then, you know, almostimmediately it was three years
with Cirque for two Cirque deSolei Michael Jackson shows.
So it was a lot of, you know,work in, even in the midst of
everything we were goingthrough.
And, you know, it wasn't untilafter about five years did I
even take the time to grieve,you know, because everything

(01:05:27):
continued to go, you know,because we had to, you know,
keep the promise as best wecould and at least try to share
what Michael was planning, youknow, to the best of our ability
with the footage that we had,you know, and, um, all of it,

(01:05:48):
you know, all of it just sort of, um, I dunno, it was
bittersweet.
I mean, I w it was so painful,but I couldn't have imagined
being anywhere else, you know,certainly.
Um, at that time we all sort ofbonded together and get through
it.
And it was so interesting thatit was, uh, I was talking with
my, uh, with Mariah Carey thispast weekend.
I get to see her Christmasconcert and she brought up

(01:06:11):
Michael's Memorial.
Um, that was the first time wehad gotten to, you know, um,
work together.
Um, but you know, it, it was, itwas, uh, even though it was a
super sad moment, it was still avery magical moment.
And, you know, um, I will neverforget it

Dr. Shepp (01:06:31):
and normal lie.
Yeah.
And just hearing the, the thingsthat people had to say, um, Kobe
Bryant, you know, speaking, I'msure people were really
surprised to hear when he saidthat people ask him who his
greatest influence was and whyhe works so hard.
And he said, you might think itwas Michael Jordan.
Um, you can name a lot of peoplewho you would think it was, but

(01:06:51):
it was Michael Jackson ofcourse.
And, and just, just the thingsthat people were, were saying
about his influence.
Um, very, very moving, veryimpacting

really.
I mean, and that's when we firstheard from Paris, Jackson, and
you know, it, it was just, Idon't know, just so many things
going on.
I saw one of the images fromthat, um, Memorial a few weeks
ago, and you know, in thatmoment it was Judith was singing
and there was smokey Robinsonand Barry Gordy and you know,
Janet and all the brothers andyou know, his children and just

(01:07:25):
all of these sort of luminaries.
And then there's me and then,you know, it was just like,
Whoa.
Even in that moment I didn'trealize what it was.
I think, you know, there was acertain amount of autopilot that
we just sort of went intobecause it was crisis mode, you
know, so, you know, looking backon those moments, I'm like,

(01:07:46):
Whoa, okay.
Wow.
Okay.
Yeah.
Ms ms Liz was still with, thiswas with Taylor, you know, she
was, she was there throughout,you know, um, I don't know.
It was just, I dunno, it stillis.
So, uh, haunting that wholetime.
Sure.

Dr. Shepp (01:08:03):
Yeah.
And it makes sense with so muchto do that you were involved
with in, in honoring him so manyprojects that you might not have
had the chance to stop andgrieve for quite some time.

Oh yeah.
Oh yeah.
[inaudible] that's, that's partof it.
Yeah.
[inaudible] and I think the fearof what that all means because
everybody liked Michael himselfhad invested so much and this is
it, and was really lookingforward to, you know, executing.
We were going to revolutionizetouring, you know, to go and do

(01:08:34):
residencies, you know, in theseglobal facilities and be there
for several weeks or months at atime, you know, it was going to
be a totally different way of,you know, bringing the art
there.
It's like move into a city andjust be there, you know, um, for
as long as possible beforemoving to the next place.
You know, he, we hadn't done itlike that before, so I'm just

(01:08:56):
really, you know, still sad thatwe didn't get to because it was
so set to be the biggest, youknow, that ever was.
And I think the best becausealong those, in those years we
were doing some prettyinnovative stuff and again,
working with the highest andtechnical ability, um, artists

(01:09:18):
from all over the world to pullthis together.
And, you know, after we were,you know, unfortunately unable
to, you could see some of theideas that had been developed,
you know, visible and other art,you know, so they get to live
on, you know, even if peopledon't know their origins.

Dr. Shepp (01:09:36):
Hmm.
Yeah, I suppose there's somesatisfaction in that.

Yeah, a little bit.
I mean, you know, cause it's art, it's, it's influence.
That's the, that's the, that'sthe thing, you know, we, we
humbly contribute, you know,many have come before us,
there'll be others after us.
It's just, you know, where didwe get to do?
And hopefully people can connectthe dots and you know,
opportunities like this to eventalk about it helps with that.

Dr. Shepp (01:10:00):
I'm glad.
Yeah, me too.
Absolutely.
One of the things you've said isthat you've learned to let the
artistry be first and keep yourmind clear about what you want
and how, how you, how to achieveit.
Um, and you've also learned tobe patient because it can take a
long time to do things.
Right.
So I think what you've, whatyou've just talked about kind of

(01:10:22):
summarizes it goes along withthat summary, I suppose.

Yeah.
But I mean to add to that, thereis also, you know, a balancing
act, you know, and, and having avision, being very clear about
what that should be, but thenbeing open and flexible to
getting there.
You know, and how we get thereand what the process is going to
be.
It's kinda hard to, you know, doit sort of, um, like a template.

(01:10:46):
Um, so each experience isdifferent.
That's exciting, you know, butthe challenge these days is that
with the internet and digital asopposed to film, you know,
production costs go down a lot,you know, so very few artists
can afford the time and theexpense to have a proper

(01:11:06):
workshop and develop ideas anddo tests.
And absolutely, a lot of times,you know, sometimes the artists
will show up and they have maybea few hours and they've got
something else to do and thenmaybe the soundcheck and then
the show, you know, not many getto take, you know, and have a

(01:11:29):
huge audition first of all.
And then bring people fromdifferent parts of the world and
have a workshop with them andteach them skills and you know,
enhance what they do and buildthe team, you know, that can
unify, you know, appropriatelybefore they even start a
rehearsal process that then goeson to, you know, a production

(01:11:52):
that can sustain.
And, you know, keep theirinterest and you know, and keep
them engaged and safely and youknow, be seen by, you know,
thousands and thousands ofpeople.
You know, it's just rare thesedays.
It really is.
I mean, there's not many thatinvest the time.
I mean, I, I still applaudMadonna and obviously Janet for

(01:12:14):
doing so, Jennifer Lopez putsthe time in.
Clearly Beyonce does, you know,usher does, you know, I would
imagine Justin Timberlake doesChris Brown, um, you know, but
that's a few, you know, butstill, you know, no one's gotten
to the height of what Michaelwould do, you know, it's just

(01:12:35):
not the time for it.
You know, it's not, I dunno,it's just the, the turnover is
so much faster too.
I mean, there'd be years betweenMichael's projects so that there
was this natural anticipation,you know, and, and, and that was
part of the theater of thelaunch, you know, now some

(01:12:56):
artists to stay relevant,they've got to put out a
project, you know, you know,like clockwork to stay relevant
and stay, you know, in the, inthe, in the public sigh.
And you know, get likes andviews, which equates to
sponsorships and endorsements.
You know, it's all sort ofdifferent and more codependent
now.

(01:13:17):
Um, it's not bad, it's justdifferent.
So, um, that's what makes those,those experiences that much more
cherished because they werereally special.

Dr. Shepp (01:13:28):
Absolutely.
And, and contributes to the longlasting impact for sure.
Of course.
Well I want to thank you forbeing so generous with your
time, Travis.
Um, I'm going to shift gears ifit's okay and just to ask you
some questions that I ask toeveryone.
Okay.
So, Travis, what in life are youstill curious about?

I'm still curious about additional contributions I
can make to art as a whole.
I'm still curious about what thenext chapter of my career and my
life will look like and feellike.
And I'm still curious about, youknow, who is next, who is the

(01:14:09):
next, you know, artists toemerge out of, you know, being
influenced by our work.

Dr. Shepp (01:14:19):
That's great cause you're, you're, you're still
invested in, um, in, in whatyou're contributing to.

Oh, absolutely.
Absolutely.
I communicate with artists allover the world.
I mean Salif from Paris, youknow, Carlos from say shows a
show from Japan.
We're actually working on hisfirst album.
And, uh, you know, I've alwayswanted to be able to launch a
Japanese artist in America.
It's not been done before.

(01:14:45):
Um, show is going to be going tobe next and we're working very
hard on that, you know, and justmy love of music and dance and
the arts, you know, just keepsme motivated.
And like Michael used to say,find the diamonds in the rough,
you know, and, and help Polishthem and make them brilliant and
you know, for everybody to, youknow, see and enjoy.

(01:15:06):
So I still love doing that.
I really, really do.

Dr. Shepp (01:15:10):
Is more distracting to you Travis, as a, as a
performer.
Um, and as a choreographer,director, is it the praise or
the criticism?

I think they can both be distracting, but I had
to choose one.
I'd probably say the praisebecause I'd learned something in
Japan years ago.
Um, and it made sense to me thatin Japan you're not rewarded for

(01:15:40):
doing your job.
So when you do a good job inAmerica, we're so busy
congratulating each other inJapan, it's expected that you do
a good job, you know, so a lotof times what we would reward,
they don't necessarily, theyjust look for what could be
better.
And I think that that is, um,not only constructive, but it's

(01:16:05):
humbling as well.
Um, you know, because I thinkwhen we get caught up in our
past achievements, we're missingout on, you know, current and
future opportunities.

Dr. Shepp (01:16:14):
Absolutely.
Yeah.
It's so important to be in themoment.
You can get stuck in the pastfor all the wrong reasons, not
just because you, you stayfocused on a mistake, but
sometimes it's staying focusedon an achievement.
Correct.
Yeah, correct.
As a performer and an and achoreographer, you obviously
prepare for every performanceand yet the unexpected can

(01:16:36):
happen.
And what's something unexpectedthat has happened to you in your
career?

In the history tour, I fell in Russia on stage
in a performance and gotmunicipal damage.
So that was unexpected.
Yeah.
And then spent eight weekshobbling around on crutches from
the home, though I was not goingto leave the road from a
wheelchair or crutches and itwas fine and I was fine with it.

(01:17:05):
But I did get, um, acupuncturefor the first time in Warsaw,
Poland, which I, yeah.
Which I still swear by.
Um, but yeah, that was veryunexpected.
And then obviously, you know,Michael's untimely passing on
June 25th, 2009, um, wasprobably the most unexpected
thing that's ever happened.
Um, but along a lighter one, uh,working on the Academy awards

(01:17:28):
with Debbie Allen, uh, the yearwas, um, beauty and the beast
was nominated and I think a hugeJackman was opening the show.
And we, it was the first timeI'd ever descended, um, on a
cable.
And I remember in the rehearsalsjust being horrified and having
a panic attack and, you know, wehad to stop the run and

(01:17:51):
everything, and Debbie comfortedme, of course, as she would do.
And, uh, you know, what wassurprising that, uh, was in the
actual performance after beingterrified of my wits and staying
up there for the whole openingthing and before, you know, and
then coming down and justsomething sorta just happened
and I just added all these extramoves and my cord was spinning

(01:18:12):
and it wasn't supposed to.
And it was just, I just sortawent there and lived in the
moment and had such a great timethere.
And then we, we actually did thesame gag and dangerous for MTV,
you know?
Yeah.
And I, cause I remember havingthat experience that was like,
ah, it's a piece of cake.
You love it, you know, yearsbefore screaming my head off,

(01:18:35):
you know, and embarrassingmyself.
But yeah, that was, that wasdefinitely a surprising moment.
And Debbie never let me live itdown.
Every time I see her, she bringsit up.
Oh, that's great.
Oh, and surprising.
First audition, Jennifer Lopezwas to my right, you know, and
then a Seper Ascension has beenso just been, uh, marveled at it

(01:19:00):
of Marvel and I continue to bejust really in awe of what she's
been able to accomplish.
Ah, that's fantastic.
Paula Abdul too.
You know, Paula Abdul as well,you know, seeing her and okay
now her dance has made her, youknow, a pop star and a
personality and a brand.
You know, I look at that andKenny Ortega and you know Bob

(01:19:22):
Fossey with, you know, Tony Emmy, you know, and an Oscar, like
those kinds of things.
I love that stuff.
You know, Guinness world recordstuff, you know, that's, that
excites me and that's great.
And you want to Bob FosseyAmerican choreography awards as
well.
So yes, one was for ghosts withMichael Jackson and the other, I

(01:19:43):
believe was a, I think it wasfor free your mind with invoke,
I believe.
Okay.
Yeah.
Amazing how some of those thingscome come full circle.
Oh, just to begin where you didand then to see some of the, the
trajectory over time.
Oh yeah.
Oh yeah.
It's still like, I can't believeit.

(01:20:05):
It's, it's crazy.
It's crazy.
Um, you know, so in the timegoes so fast, I mean, I never
really believed that, but youknow, if you're able to string
together a number of years ordecades in a career, you know,
it does seem like, you know,yesterday the first audience,
you know, the first big sort of,you know, 20 or 30,000 people or

(01:20:28):
you know, you remember thosemoments, you know, remembering
Israel and you know, 110,000people in a failed, uh, for the
history tour and you know, beingable to perform and bring sort
of peace to the, um, I thinkit's East and West or upper and
lower bank, you know, they're inthat territory for the time we

(01:20:48):
were doing the concert.
And then when we took off thecivil unrest continued.
But for that moment people werein, you know, sort of unity.
You know, Michael Jackson wouldplot his tour to go to places
that needed it, you know,whether it be financially, you
know, cause the economy would beenriched by his show.
Being in town, you know, peoplehave jobs, you know, if not to

(01:21:11):
build the stays to show, youknow, to sell their sort of
knockoff, you know, um, swagmerchandise.
And he was fine with all ofthat.
You know, it's so interesting.
Absolutely.
You know, so many concerts.
Um, the tickets were just sortof free to a certain amount of
people just because it was likego into the community, make a

(01:21:33):
difference, leave it better thanyou found it.
You know, even if it's just toentertain the folks for free and
not require them to pay.
Um, and it was like those kindsof things I remember and they
let me know that, you know, asyou ascend in your career, you
know, it's just kind of yourresponsibility to be nicer, you
know, and inspire people.

(01:21:55):
You know, that's the point ofart.
That's what got us here is firedby something that we saw or
experienced before.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I've heard, you've mentioned afew things today that that
really drives home, thatinspiration is part of your
mindset clearly.
Yeah, absolutely.
Oh yeah.
Travis, what is one comment thatstill stands out to you because

(01:22:17):
of its impact that a commentthat you've received during the
course of your career that stillstands out to you?
The same people you see on theway up.
You will see on the way down.

Speaker 7 (01:22:29):
Hmm.

So it's necessary to, you know, be kind to
everybody because you never knowwho you're meeting.
I love that.
Yeah.
You don't never know.
You never know.
I was in a, I was in a nightclubin some crazy place, I want to
say maybe UK, somewhere inEurope and we were at a, at a

(01:22:54):
like restaurant bar type ofthing.
Some party and I wound upsitting next to a gentleman and,
uh, we just talked all night andjust, it was fun.
And you know, I told them I wasthere with the concert and
Michael Jackson and he said, so,um, okay, cool.
You know, and, and I asked himwhat he was doing.
He said, Oh, I'm playing withthe all star team.
And I was like, really?
What's your name?
He said, Charles Barkley.

Dr. Shepp (01:23:23):
Right.
Oh that's great.

Austin told me, he said, the nicer you get to be
nicer, the richer you are, themore successful you are, the
nicer you get to be, you know,important to remember people's
names, you know, and you know,folks appreciate that cause it
means you were listening.
And so I remember that, thosekinds of things too.
Um, but yeah.

(01:23:48):
Oh like I say, every experience,there's something, there is some
takeaway.

Dr. Shepp (01:23:52):
I I hear how much your philosophy impacts your
work.
Um, but you, you sound like you,you live it out on a daily
basis, which is also fantastic.
I try my best.
I really do.
Speaking of trying your best, um, my next question would be how
do you move on from failure?

Understanding that you get another chance if you
take it, you know, it's reallyabout how you recover.
I think it's not about thefailure cause they're going to
be big ones.
I mean, you know, you've got totake big risks for big rewards
and sometimes you fall short andyou know, I think your character
is judged on how you deal withit and how you move on from it.
You know, sometimes it's hard tonot hold onto it.

(01:24:31):
Um, but that invites fear.
And so I tried just to rememberthere is no space for fear in
the room.
So just kind of go from it, growfrom it.
You're not the first or, or thelast who will fail at something,
you know?
And um, and, and I think thatthe greatness has to come from

(01:24:52):
that.
You know, you've got to fail inorder to appreciate, you know,
your, your process and yourjourney.

Dr. Shepp (01:24:58):
I love that.
There's no space for failure inthe room.
That's a Michael Jackson quote.
Okay.
Yup.
There's no place for fear in theroom.
There's no space for fear.
Right?
Correct.
Yeah.
Um, two more questions if it'sokay.
Sure.
Have you ever had what you wouldsay was a transformative moment
in your work and if so, what wasit?

The transformative moment I gotta to say.
I mean, maybe the first thing Iever choreographed, which was a
Tevin Campbell just asked me to,for the boys in the hood
soundtrack.
And that was the first thing Iever did.
You know, all of my own, um, youknow, I, I'd already done the
invoke and like sounds ofblackness, uh, which was Jimmy

(01:25:42):
jam and Terry Lewis, his group.
But Tevin was the first thing Idid.
And you know, that let me know,okay, okay, I have a full
vision.
I could make up the steps, Icould decide how it looks, I
could decide what we're wearing,I could decide, you know, who
the dancers are.
And it just really got meexcited about now getting to
participate in all of thoseother aspects of, you know,

(01:26:04):
beyond just the dance.
And so I think that was reallytransformative because it, let
me see, all right.
Dance for the camera's differentfrom dance for the stage and
dance and supportive of song.
You know, it's different thandance in support of, you know,
um, a ballet or any other genre.

(01:26:24):
But you know, there was, therewas power in the music video
then and it was, you know,before our internet and our
accessibility to all of thatstuff, you know, it was getting
to dance on camera and it playon MTV or B E T at the time.
That was how we measured out ofsuccess.

(01:26:47):
You know, seeing ourselves inthose short movies that, you
know, influenced so many.
And I think that that wasdefinitely a transformative
moment for me, seeing myself oncamera, you know, in those, in
those, in those moments

Dr. Shepp (01:27:01):
and how that transformed all of our lives.
Just that, that part of, of timeand that impact of culture, the
music video.
Absolutely.
Yeah,

I agree.
Yeah.
The video, the movies, you know,news AIDS was the first film I
ever did with Kenny Ortega, youknow, as a dancer.
And you know, that was, that wasgreat.
I mean, seeing production onthat scale, having, you know,
gene Kelly come to rehearsal.
I mean, that was, that was, thatwas mind blowing for me, you
know?
Um, yeah, I mean, I dunno, it'sjust there was a, there was a

(01:27:37):
few of them.
It's definitely a few of them, Iwould imagine.
Overall.
Yeah.
Overall, most of them were withMichael though at some time.
Yeah.

Dr. Shepp (01:27:46):
Well, in, in brief, what have you learned about
yourself, Travis, from your workover time and in your career to
date?
What have you learned aboutyourself?

I have learned that I am a loyal person.
I've learned that I am, youknow, a very sensitive person.
Um, but I've also learned toguard my feelings because, you
know, if we are always searchingfor validation, that is, and can

(01:28:19):
be very unhealthy.
And I think that, you know, asI, you know, as I live longer,
you know, I realized that, youknow, it's just easier to be
kind, you know, it's just easierto be kind.
And I, and I know that I'm not aconfrontational person.

(01:28:40):
Um, I was asked once one time,what do I do when, you know,
people I'm working with arestudents I'm teaching get out of
hand.
And I had to say, honestly, I'venever had it because I don't
welcome it.
I don't encourage it, but Icertainly don't, you know, go
there and escalate with people.
That's just never been my thing.
That's why, you know, whenthose, when some of the dance

(01:29:02):
shows were out, you know, um,and you'd go to castings for
judges, you know, everybodywanted assignment, you know, and
I would just start by saying,I'm not assignment.
I'm Kmart.
Paula, you know, that plate, youknow, work on lifted dance with
Paula Abdul as a judge, youknow, and that's it.

(01:29:23):
That I was like, you know, Iknow you have Paula, but I'm
not, I'm not your assignment.
I'm sorry.
I'm just not, you know, but itwas, it, it wound up working
anyway, still get to do it for aseason.
And it was fun.
Yeah.
That was, that was cool.
I really love that.
Yeah.
Yeah.
It was cool.
Yeah.
But, uh, yeah, I did learn that.
I, I learned that, you know,just remember the experiences.

(01:29:45):
Be grateful for the experiencesyou gotta stay in gratitude, you
know, or, or you won't continueto be blessed.
I believe that.

Dr. Shepp (01:29:53):
Well, I have been blessed by being able to spend
some time with you today, sothank you so much for, for
sharing your time today andtaking the time to chat with me.
I really appreciate it, Travis.

Well, it goes both ways.
Appreciate it.
I've been my pleasure.
Thank you so much.
Yes.
I hope your listeners get a lotout of it and we can do it
again.
I love that.
Yup.
Thanks, Travis.
I want to launch some stuff withyou.
I'll keep you in the loop aboutmy movie.
Oh, I would love it.
Yeah, I would love that.
Yeah, absolutely.
Yeah, we have some interestingstuff coming up.
Hopefully you'll get to see someof it soon.

Dr. Shepp (01:30:22):
Well, it sounds like you have a number of things that
are, that are percolating inthere.

I do.
I do.
I do.
I'm very interested in gettingmy studio or school's situation
together.
I want to have an educationalfacility, fantastic production
facility.
Maybe it lands at where I'mfrom.
You know, I'm very, verypassionate about my shoe line.
You know, worked very closelywith runic in Italy to develop
dance performance wear that, youknow, has a fashion aesthetic.

(01:30:50):
I'm very excited about that,about my new artists show and
our record label, Jairusentertainment.
Um, you know, all of the TV andcontent I'm working on with my
partner's agent and say she isin Kita, Randolph and Stacy
Walker.
Um, and you know, just the, themeetings and having the
opportunities that are sort ofpresenting themselves that, you

(01:31:13):
know, are going to help me, um,you know, sort of craft the next
chapter of my career.
I'm very excited about all ofit.
I'm so glad a lot of people thatfrom my past, you know, I've
reconnected with, you know,Jimmy locust and you know,
Eartha Robinson and you know,folks that you know, were there
and, and I share history withand um, you know, I just went to
my 30 year class reunion, so theperforming arts high school

(01:31:36):
that, you know, first gave meinternational experience, you
know, getting to go back thereand you know, celebrate, you
know, all of those years and allof our accomplishments, um, in,
in my class, um, was veryspecial.
I got to do that in Atlanta afew weeks ago.
So glad.
That's great.
Yup.

Dr. Shepp (01:31:56):
The things that you've mentioned, um, are going
to be linked in the episodenotes for the podcast and my
website is Travis payne.com andI try to keep it pretty updated.
And you know, Instagram isTravis Payne wine and my Twitter
is, is Travis Payne.
Great, perfect.
And I will link all of thosethings too in the episode notes.
Thank you.

Speaker 1 (01:32:31):
This has been managed the moment with dr Shep.

Speaker 8 (01:32:33):
Yeah,

Speaker 1 (01:32:33):
my physical action of moments.
It's how you manage the momentsthat makes the difference.
Special thanks to all of you whohave taken the time to leave a
review and to rate the podcast.
I really appreciate it and ithelps this podcast to reach more
people and enables us to havemore conversations that you'd be
interested in listening to.

(01:32:54):
So thanks.
You can subscribe to the managethe moment podcasts for free
just by clicking the subscribebutton wherever you're listening
to this podcast, and then you'llbe sure to get the newest
episodes as soon as they'reuploaded.
And for more information aboutmanage the moment podcast, you
can see the episode notes forthis broadcast.

(01:33:14):
You'll also find us on socialmedia, and I'm on Twitter and
Instagram at dr Shep.
Thanks so much for listening andtaking the time to share these
moments with us.
Until next time.

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Travis Payne - Award Winning Choreographer, Dancer, Producer, Director

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Travis Payne - Award Winning Choreographer, Dancer, Producer, Director