April 16, 2024 • 24 mins
In this episode, we cover the fine-tuned art of giving feedback so it's received well.
It's not easy to give feedback. Most of us have had at least one experience with giving feedback and seeing it blow up in our faces.
If you like to avoid conflict, like me, it might seem like giving feedback to a colleague is a lose-lose situation.
Let's turn giving feedback into a win-win situation.
This podcast episode puts the "sandwich" method where it belongs (in the trash) and dives into what it takes for your feedback to be received well and acted on.
Let's make you a better leader - a leader people want to follow. Let's turn you into management material.
Book a complimentary management coaching conversation at https://calendly.com/catherine-vanderlaan/free-60-minute-leadership-consultation
Email me at catherine@managementmaterialcoaching.com to ask a question or get in touch.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:04):
well, in order to have your feedback received, you
have to be open to gettingfeedback too.
So ask for feedback, receive itwell, make some changes.
Show that you are faithful,available and teachable.
Show that you are willing togrow, because if you're not
willing to grow, nobody is goingto want to take your
(00:25):
suggestions to grow, becausethen people will just peg you as
somebody who is demanding andself-centered and all that stuff
.
If you want to start thisprocess, start it with yourself.
Start it with getting feedback,growing yourself, becoming more
of a team player, and then youcan follow this model and give
(00:46):
feedback.
Welcome to Management Material.
My name is Katherine Vanderlaan.
I started my career at thebottom as an assistant and
worked my way up to become theboss's boss in eight years and,
man, I love management.
Welcome back to ManagementMaterial.
(01:13):
This is the podcast that helpsyou become a leader people want
to follow.
Today we are discussing aninteresting topic.
It's one of the crucial topicsfor being a leader.
It's how to give feedback.
How to and not just anyfeedback how to give difficult
(01:34):
feedback that will help theother person and be received
well by the person you're givingfeedback to.
You might guess by now, but Ilearned this piece of advice
through some really toughsituations.
Nobody I know is really good atgiving feedback right off the
(01:56):
bat.
It's not something that welearn that well in families
maybe your family okay, maybeyou're not like me at all Maybe
you learned this in your familyand you went out into the
workforce.
You rocked giving feedback.
Everybody wanted to listen toyou.
You went into the workforcewith an A plus an MBA in
feedback giving.
(02:17):
Well, that's not that manypeople that I know, most people
that I know, most people that Icoach, most people that I have
mentored or been a guide for inany capacity needed to learn how
to give feedback.
That was well received.
It is a skill that leaders needto learn, because leaders
(02:38):
leaders that people want tofollow develop the people around
them, develop the people aroundthem, and in order to develop
the people around them, theyneed to give feedback and work
with people so that it isreceived, so that they are
developed, so they're improvedand so that they improve the
company, the project, anythingthat they're working on.
(02:59):
Let me tell you a little story.
This is how I learned it rightwhen I was a new sort of leader
actually not quite a leader, yetI just wanted to be one.
I had to learn quickly how togive feedback without creating
just the worst team environmenton the planet.
Honestly, I didn't want toaddress what was going on in my
(03:20):
team.
I really didn't.
So I talked to my boss, hopingthat my boss would talk to this
other woman's boss.
Right, does that sound familiar?
You talk to your boss and say,hey, go talk to this person's
boss and solve my problem for me.
I wanted my feedback to trickledown to the coworkers that I was
working with and well, to cutthis story short, well, not
(03:42):
really.
I'll just give you some cliffnotes.
That didn't happen.
That didn't happen.
My boss talked to the coworkerand she told me to go talk to
her about it.
So I did.
So.
My boss did the adult thing,the mature thing, and said you
know what you go solve thisproblem, you know what you're
talking about, you know thefeedback you want to give and so
(04:03):
go give it.
Know what you're talking about,you know the feedback you want
to give, and so go give it.
It didn't go well.
It did not go well.
I gave some feedback to thiscoworker, and I'm not giving you
too many details because Idon't want to out somebody.
If you know me, I don't wantyou to know who I'm talking
about but I gave feedback tothis coworker about
communication, about basicallyhow she was doing her job, and
(04:26):
that I didn't appreciate it.
Now I did not give too manyimprovement suggestions beyond a
vague improve yourcommunication.
This is how I'm receiving it.
I don't like working with you.
Basically is how it wasreceived.
I don't like working with you.
And when somebody receivesfeedback like that the I don't
like working with you kind offeedback, somebody receives
feedback like that the I don'tlike working with you kind of
feedback how well do you thinkthat's going to go?
(04:48):
Most people say that is notwell, it will not go well.
And you're right, it will notgo well.
So here's what I learned, andI'll tell you a different story
in a moment.
But here's what I learned whenyou are giving feedback to a
coworker, to anyone you areworking with, you have to follow
(05:10):
a model and before that, youhave to show that you care about
the person.
People's ears are not open toreceiving feedback unless they
know that you care about themfirst.
Okay, and let me say that onemore time for the people in the
back.
Nobody is going to receive yourfeedback about them unless they
(05:33):
know that you care about themas a person.
Unless you care about theperson you're giving feedback to
and they know it, they will notreceive the feedback from you.
And it's because there are alot of people in this world with
really bad motivations for life.
They want things just becausethey want them.
They want things for themselvesand don't care about the people
(05:57):
around them.
As soon as people understandthat you care about that person
as an individual, you care aboutthat person as an individual.
You care about that person'smental health.
I mean, don't go out and saymental health, but you care
about that person and what theycare about.
You're putting that otherperson's needs ahead of your own
(06:17):
.
Then you're going to be ablethey will, in fact, be much more
likely to listen to you.
So here's how to give feedbackthat will be received.
First, you show that you care.
All right, because you do care.
You do care about that person,and if we get into the
(06:40):
nitty-gritty, I'll get into itin a moment, but this is really
our show that you care.
Make it situation-based.
So here's what happened, here'sthe behavior that I experienced
and here is the impact.
It's called the SBI model.
And then make some comment, aquestion and ask what can we do?
(07:01):
What can you and I do togetherto improve this?
If they say I don't know, Idon't care, then you know what?
Come back later and say I wouldlove to know when we can have
this discussion.
All right, so make thosesuggestions, give feedback and
own it.
Now let's get into some of thenitty-gritty here, because it's
(07:24):
very broad.
What I just said and I want tomake sure that this is
applicable to you and helpful toyou as you are becoming a
leader people want to follow.
There's a model out there.
It's the radical candor model.
I'm wondering who created it.
I know I learned it from AdamGrant and he's an organizational
(07:44):
psychologist.
I really appreciate him.
And there's this four by fourthat you can find online about
caring about somebody personallyis up at the top, right.
So it's a grid right.
So X-axis, y-axis.
On the Y-axis it's caring about, about somebody personally, and
up at the top you really,really care about them.
(08:05):
Down at the bottom you don'tcare about anybody but yourself,
all right.
And in the middle right thereis just that middle ground of
you.
You kind of care halfway rightand then you have the x-axis, so
the horizontal line, and to theright, that is challenging
people directly.
(08:26):
So really being blunt.
And up at the to the left isbeing indirect and and kind of
silent right, so not bringingthings up at all, being
extremely avoidant, beingakeeper, somebody who doesn't
(08:46):
want to bring up where peoplecan improve.
Now this ends up making fourdifferent personalities that fit
within these quadrants.
So you have, let's say you havesomebody who's silent, who
really, really cares aboutpeople.
That is called ruinous empathy.
So that's called feeling a lotLike you really care about
(09:06):
people, you feel their feelingsand you don't want to rock the
boat, you just want to be apeacekeeper.
You're not making suggestions,you are not bringing anything up
, you are probably covering upfor people's mistakes.
That's ruinous empathy.
That is what that hurts people,and it hurts people because
then they can't improve, they'renot seeing their blind spots.
(09:29):
Now, on that same side ofsilence, you let's come on down
the Y-axis where you have peoplewho absolutely don't care at
all about anybody else andthey're silent.
That quadrant is calledmanipulative insincerity.
That is when you're silent, youdon't care and you are silent
(09:49):
because you just want them toruin themselves.
So that is manipulativeinsincerity.
Those people do exist.
They tend to be few and farbetween, as far as I can tell,
but manipulative and insincerepeople absolutely exist and you
can find more of them in thecorporate world than I have
(10:09):
found other places, except forsome mom groups.
But anyway, we won't get intothat.
Another quadrant is when youchallenge directly but you don't
care about anybody else.
Now these are your loud,obnoxious people in the office
that will be bold and blunt andhave no empathy.
They will come up and just say,hey, you did this and I think
(10:32):
you're wrong and here's why, andthis is what you should do
instead.
Now, anyone who gets feedbacklike that is not going to
receive it, are they?
They absolutely won't receiveit.
Those are the jerks.
All right, they're obnoxious.
It's the obnoxious aggressionquadrant.
So they're obnoxious, they'reaggressive.
They might be brilliant, butthey bring down morale and those
(10:57):
are not people you want in theoffice.
Those are the people you wanton your team and those certainly
are not leaders that peoplewill want to follow.
Now, people might follow theruinous envy because they're
silent, they corrupt people'smistakes and they care.
People will definitely followthose people for a little while,
but they won't get greatresults because they burn
(11:17):
themselves out.
Where you want to be is in thatradical candor quadrant where
they care personally andchallenge directly.
At the very beginning of thisepisode, I talked about how you
have to establish that you careabout the person before they are
open to feedback.
Well, it's not good enough justto establish it.
(11:39):
You have to continue to care.
As you're giving feedback, it'sto couch it, and I don't like
the term couching it becauseyou're not really couching it.
It's not a sandwich that wewere all taught in elementary
school.
If you are a Gen X, amillennial or even Gen Z, you're
told to say something nice andthen say something direct and
then say something nice again.
(11:59):
No, no, no, no.
Ridiculous.
All that does is make peoplethink that when they hear
something nice about themselves,they're going to hear something
that they need to improve onlater.
So they tend to not trust thatnice thing.
Because most of the time, peoplemade it up have this radical
(12:27):
candor that people willeventually want to follow.
And I'm going to give you alittle bit of a caveat here,
because even with pouching it,even with having empathy and
caring about people five to 10%of people are going to take that
feedback and absolutely throwit in your face, absolutely get
defensive.
They will look at that and saynot me, I don't need that and I
(12:50):
didn't ask you for feedback inthe first place.
10% okay.
They usually come around.
At almost every place that I'veworked actually, every place
that I've worked, I try toembody this radical candor and
my colleagues end up in thistight knit, beautiful team that
(13:11):
all also exhibit radical candor.
So all they need is an exampleand maybe a little training.
I used to give corporatetrainings on this, so you're not
seeing my corporate training onthis.
Maybe I will make that and putit on YouTube, but it's so
valuable because without this,your team ends up just storming
(13:32):
and never, ever norming orperforming.
So you have to learn how togive feedback and take feedback.
That's another podcast episode.
Let me just give you an example.
I had a guy on my team who wasnot doing his job all that well.
We were doing a marketdevelopment project and he was
taking a long time to follow up.
He wasn't saying the thingsthat I thought he should know
(13:55):
about the products.
We were losing some momentuminstead of gaining it, and if
you are launching a product ordeveloping one, you need a full
support for marketing.
You need to launch marketdevelopment.
I mean, if you want to developsomething that people will want
to use, you have to get peopleinvolved, right.
(14:16):
So I had this team of people itwas really me kind of driving
it.
We had marketing guys, we hadmarket development One like half
of a person.
We had my assistants, projectmanagers, who are developing the
project.
Everyone was involved.
I'll just say that everyone wasinvolved, even sales and
technology.
They were all involved in thisbecause I wanted them all to
(14:39):
have a touch point withcustomers.
It's important to develop greatproducts.
People need to know who theircustomers are, what they want
and their future.
And so we were launching thisthing and or developing it
pre-launch and we were losingmomentum, mostly because the
customers were not being talkedto, they were not being
(15:01):
communicated with.
So I went up to it and, if youknow me at all or have worked
with me at all, I get kind ofmad when people aren't doing
their jobs.
I just get a little angry.
Like you said said you weregoing to do this.
I don't see any reason youcan't.
Let's do it, just do it.
That's my attitude, but that'snot really terribly helpful.
(15:21):
And I care about the people onmy team.
I absolutely do.
I care about them as people.
I mean I have, when people haveinjuries and they're nearby,
I've made meals and dropped themoff, like I really and that's
just one example.
But like I really do care aboutpeople, I'm just super blunt
(15:42):
too and I can fall in thatobnoxious aggressor category
because the way that Icommunicate doesn't always
communicate that I care.
So here's why I'm helping youand why we're going through this
right now because I had tolearn this.
I had to learn to be nice andshow that I cared, but also be
straightforward.
So I went up to him and I said,hey, I'm curious what's going
(16:04):
on.
I'd love to know, can we do acheck-in?
Do you have a moment, do youhave 30 minutes in the next week
where we can do a check-in?
I'm curious on what's going onand what I can do to support you
.
And he he knew that he wasbehind in some of this work.
He knew, because I had askedhim for follow-ups for different
(16:24):
things, that I wanted to knowhow to support him because I
wanted him to do his job.
So we scheduled a meeting andget this.
So scheduled a meeting so that Iknew that he would be receptive
to feedback.
He knew it was coming.
We sat down and I said hey, canyou tell me what's going on in
(16:46):
your life, what is going on inyour workload?
I want to know how to supportyou and if your workload is too
high, if you don't have thework-life balance that you want.
So we went into discussing hislife and some things that
happened.
Somebody in his family wasgetting sick and I trusted the
guy.
This is all real stuff, I mean.
(17:06):
Eventually we were Facebookfriends, verified absolutely.
Somebody was getting sick andhe was having to pick up some
slack at home.
So I asked him what can we do tosupport you?
What part of this is too much?
Where do you need to focus inyour role and what would make
you feel accomplished?
Now, if your leader saidsomething like that to you, how
(17:31):
would that make you feel Reallysupported?
Right, you'd feel supersupported.
Yeah, something is going on athome.
Yeah, I am having troubleconcentrating.
Hey, if we schedule parallelworking meetings, I think I can
concentrate on work.
Hey, if we do whatever thesuggestion is, I'll be able to
(17:53):
do my job a little bit better.
So we did that.
He needed a little bit ofsupport.
I come to find out that'scalled body doubling.
It helps me too.
So we scheduled meetings wherewe could work just alongside
each other, silent.
We were not talking to eachother, we were not even working
on the same projects.
We were just sitting in a roomworking alongside each other.
(18:16):
And when people go by and theysee two people in a room working
alongside each other, theythink they're in a meeting so
they don't bother.
It was great.
Here's the big point Be direct.
I was direct in that meeting,said hey, we're missing some of
the deadlines.
I want to make sure that ourcustomers are getting the
support that they need.
What can I do to support you sothat we can make sure that this
(18:40):
is happening?
And he told me because he knewthat I cared and I really did.
It was a true caring and he sawthat across the team too, and
I'm sure he talked about it Now,whenever I am doing any sort of
leadership coaching with peopleand they are trying to figure
out how to get promoted, sothey're in the promotion group
(19:03):
or they're in leadership andmanagement group coaching or I'm
doing one-on-one managertraining, whatever it is.
Oftentimes we'll talk about thisfeedback because it's so
crucial.
Oftentimes we'll talk aboutthis feedback because it's so
crucial.
It is so crucial and I get alot, of, a lot of different
responses that's not my job.
It's never gone well before.
I'm afraid to give feedback.
(19:28):
So those are the people who aresilent, but they care.
I'm afraid to give feedbackbecause I don't want people not
to like me or the people who areobnoxious aggressors say it's
never gone well before.
Well, if you are listening tothis podcast, you want to be a
manager or at least a leaderpeople want to follow.
You need two things.
You need the courage to bringthings up.
You need to use that SBI modelso situation, behavior and
(19:52):
impact.
You need to show people thatyou care throughout the
discussion and you need to beconstructive and really put some
action to your words.
Support people when you ask howto support them, but don't be a
doormat.
So that means saying I'll takea little bit of this burden off
(20:12):
your shoulders and we can sourceit from the rest of the team.
It's not saying I'm going to doyour job for you.
That is a silent doormat right.
Instead, it's saying let'sfigure out how we can do this
and if there are otherarrangements that we need to
make, we'll make them.
That doesn't mean, hey, I'mgoing to fire you or I'm going
to report you to your boss.
That just means we're going tofigure this out together.
(20:36):
Stay open to suggestions,understand and respond with
empathy.
When they tell you thatsomething is going on, say, wow,
that really sounds like it'stough.
I would be really sad if I werein your situation.
I can see that this isaffecting you and I'm so sorry
that you're going through thissituation.
So respond with empathy.
Establish that you care,continue to care and work it
(21:02):
through with that other person.
That is how you give feedback.
That and I'll tell you what 99%of the time, as long as they're
open, so you've scheduled atime for it, right.
99% of the time, as long asthey're open, so you've
scheduled a time for it, right.
99% of the time, it will gowell, maybe 98.
It will go well.
Now, if you don't schedule timefor it, you have a much higher
(21:24):
chance of it not going well.
That's when you get to your 10%mark of people who are like
yeah, no, I didn't ask for this.
Follow those steps and it willgo well.
Now here's how you apply it.
Let's say you are a marketingmanager or product manager, or
maybe you're in sales, somewherewhere you work on a team.
(21:45):
Right, you're not a lone wolf.
You do work with other people,and that is by and far almost
everyone here.
Right, Everyone who's listeningto this works on a corporate
team somehow, or in a team in anonprofit somewhere.
Right, look at how you canimprove yourself and ask for
(22:11):
feedback.
Ask for feedback from thepeople around you.
And you know what?
I'm sure, if you're listeningto this, you're going wait.
No, that wasn't the point.
That's not what we discussedtoday.
Well, in order to have yourfeedback received, you have to
be open to getting feedback too.
So, ask for feedback.
That is your first step tobeing able to give feedback.
(22:32):
Ask for feedback, receive it.
Well, make some changes.
Show that you are faithful,available and teachable.
Show that you are willing togrow, because if you're not
willing to grow, nobody is goingto want to take your
suggestions to grow, becausethen people will just peg you as
somebody who is demanding andself-centered and all that stuff
(22:54):
.
If you want to start thisprocess, start it with yourself.
Start it with getting feedback,growing yourself, becoming more
of a team player, and then youcan follow this model and give
feedback.
Anyway, I hope this was helpful.
I hope you learned a little bitmore about how to be a leader
(23:17):
People want to follow, how tobecome management material.
Now go do it.
Go do it.
Get some feedback yourself,receive it, change how you work,
become more of a part of theteam and then be equipped with
everything we just talked aboutto give feedback in a way that
cares to give feedback withradical candor and not in an
(23:41):
obnoxiously aggressive kind ofway, not in a silent enabler
kind of way, not with maliciousinsincerity, but with radical
candor.
All right, I hope this helpedand I will see you in the next
episode.
well, in order to have your feedback received, you
have to be open to gettingfeedback too.
So ask for feedback, receive itwell, make some changes.
Show that you are faithful,available and teachable.
Show that you are willing togrow, because if you're not
willing to grow, nobody is goingto want to take your
(00:25):
suggestions to grow, becausethen people will just peg you as
somebody who is demanding andself-centered and all that stuff
.
If you want to start thisprocess, start it with yourself.
Start it with getting feedback,growing yourself, becoming more
of a team player, and then youcan follow this model and give
(00:46):
feedback.
Welcome to Management Material.
My name is Katherine Vanderlaan.
I started my career at thebottom as an assistant and
worked my way up to become theboss's boss in eight years and,
man, I love management.
Welcome back to ManagementMaterial.
(01:13):
This is the podcast that helpsyou become a leader people want
to follow.
Today we are discussing aninteresting topic.
It's one of the crucial topicsfor being a leader.
It's how to give feedback.
How to and not just anyfeedback how to give difficult
(01:34):
feedback that will help theother person and be received
well by the person you're givingfeedback to.
You might guess by now, but Ilearned this piece of advice
through some really toughsituations.
Nobody I know is really good atgiving feedback right off the
(01:56):
bat.
It's not something that welearn that well in families
maybe your family okay, maybeyou're not like me at all Maybe
you learned this in your familyand you went out into the
workforce.
You rocked giving feedback.
Everybody wanted to listen toyou.
You went into the workforcewith an A plus an MBA in
feedback giving.
(02:17):
Well, that's not that manypeople that I know, most people
that I know, most people that Icoach, most people that I have
mentored or been a guide for inany capacity needed to learn how
to give feedback.
That was well received.
It is a skill that leaders needto learn, because leaders
(02:38):
leaders that people want tofollow develop the people around
them, develop the people aroundthem, and in order to develop
the people around them, theyneed to give feedback and work
with people so that it isreceived, so that they are
developed, so they're improvedand so that they improve the
company, the project, anythingthat they're working on.
(02:59):
Let me tell you a little story.
This is how I learned it rightwhen I was a new sort of leader
actually not quite a leader, yetI just wanted to be one.
I had to learn quickly how togive feedback without creating
just the worst team environmenton the planet.
Honestly, I didn't want toaddress what was going on in my
(03:20):
team.
I really didn't.
So I talked to my boss, hopingthat my boss would talk to this
other woman's boss.
Right, does that sound familiar?
You talk to your boss and say,hey, go talk to this person's
boss and solve my problem for me.
I wanted my feedback to trickledown to the coworkers that I was
working with and well, to cutthis story short, well, not
(03:42):
really.
I'll just give you some cliffnotes.
That didn't happen.
That didn't happen.
My boss talked to the coworkerand she told me to go talk to
her about it.
So I did.
So.
My boss did the adult thing,the mature thing, and said you
know what you go solve thisproblem, you know what you're
talking about, you know thefeedback you want to give and so
(04:03):
go give it.
Know what you're talking about,you know the feedback you want
to give, and so go give it.
It didn't go well.
It did not go well.
I gave some feedback to thiscoworker, and I'm not giving you
too many details because Idon't want to out somebody.
If you know me, I don't wantyou to know who I'm talking
about but I gave feedback tothis coworker about
communication, about basicallyhow she was doing her job, and
(04:26):
that I didn't appreciate it.
Now I did not give too manyimprovement suggestions beyond a
vague improve yourcommunication.
This is how I'm receiving it.
I don't like working with you.
Basically is how it wasreceived.
I don't like working with you.
And when somebody receivesfeedback like that the I don't
like working with you kind offeedback, somebody receives
feedback like that the I don'tlike working with you kind of
feedback how well do you thinkthat's going to go?
(04:48):
Most people say that is notwell, it will not go well.
And you're right, it will notgo well.
So here's what I learned, andI'll tell you a different story
in a moment.
But here's what I learned whenyou are giving feedback to a
coworker, to anyone you areworking with, you have to follow
(05:10):
a model and before that, youhave to show that you care about
the person.
People's ears are not open toreceiving feedback unless they
know that you care about themfirst.
Okay, and let me say that onemore time for the people in the
back.
Nobody is going to receive yourfeedback about them unless they
(05:33):
know that you care about themas a person.
Unless you care about theperson you're giving feedback to
and they know it, they will notreceive the feedback from you.
And it's because there are alot of people in this world with
really bad motivations for life.
They want things just becausethey want them.
They want things for themselvesand don't care about the people
(05:57):
around them.
As soon as people understandthat you care about that person
as an individual, you care aboutthat person as an individual.
You care about that person'smental health.
I mean, don't go out and saymental health, but you care
about that person and what theycare about.
You're putting that otherperson's needs ahead of your own
(06:17):
.
Then you're going to be ablethey will, in fact, be much more
likely to listen to you.
So here's how to give feedbackthat will be received.
First, you show that you care.
All right, because you do care.
You do care about that person,and if we get into the
(06:40):
nitty-gritty, I'll get into itin a moment, but this is really
our show that you care.
Make it situation-based.
So here's what happened, here'sthe behavior that I experienced
and here is the impact.
It's called the SBI model.
And then make some comment, aquestion and ask what can we do?
(07:01):
What can you and I do togetherto improve this?
If they say I don't know, Idon't care, then you know what?
Come back later and say I wouldlove to know when we can have
this discussion.
All right, so make thosesuggestions, give feedback and
own it.
Now let's get into some of thenitty-gritty here, because it's
(07:24):
very broad.
What I just said and I want tomake sure that this is
applicable to you and helpful toyou as you are becoming a
leader people want to follow.
There's a model out there.
It's the radical candor model.
I'm wondering who created it.
I know I learned it from AdamGrant and he's an organizational
(07:44):
psychologist.
I really appreciate him.
And there's this four by fourthat you can find online about
caring about somebody personallyis up at the top, right.
So it's a grid right.
So X-axis, y-axis.
On the Y-axis it's caring about, about somebody personally, and
up at the top you really,really care about them.
(08:05):
Down at the bottom you don'tcare about anybody but yourself,
all right.
And in the middle right thereis just that middle ground of
you.
You kind of care halfway rightand then you have the x-axis, so
the horizontal line, and to theright, that is challenging
people directly.
(08:26):
So really being blunt.
And up at the to the left isbeing indirect and and kind of
silent right, so not bringingthings up at all, being
extremely avoidant, beingakeeper, somebody who doesn't
(08:46):
want to bring up where peoplecan improve.
Now this ends up making fourdifferent personalities that fit
within these quadrants.
So you have, let's say you havesomebody who's silent, who
really, really cares aboutpeople.
That is called ruinous empathy.
So that's called feeling a lotLike you really care about
(09:06):
people, you feel their feelingsand you don't want to rock the
boat, you just want to be apeacekeeper.
You're not making suggestions,you are not bringing anything up
, you are probably covering upfor people's mistakes.
That's ruinous empathy.
That is what that hurts people,and it hurts people because
then they can't improve, they'renot seeing their blind spots.
(09:29):
Now, on that same side ofsilence, you let's come on down
the Y-axis where you have peoplewho absolutely don't care at
all about anybody else andthey're silent.
That quadrant is calledmanipulative insincerity.
That is when you're silent, youdon't care and you are silent
(09:49):
because you just want them toruin themselves.
So that is manipulativeinsincerity.
Those people do exist.
They tend to be few and farbetween, as far as I can tell,
but manipulative and insincerepeople absolutely exist and you
can find more of them in thecorporate world than I have
(10:09):
found other places, except forsome mom groups.
But anyway, we won't get intothat.
Another quadrant is when youchallenge directly but you don't
care about anybody else.
Now these are your loud,obnoxious people in the office
that will be bold and blunt andhave no empathy.
They will come up and just say,hey, you did this and I think
(10:32):
you're wrong and here's why, andthis is what you should do
instead.
Now, anyone who gets feedbacklike that is not going to
receive it, are they?
They absolutely won't receiveit.
Those are the jerks.
All right, they're obnoxious.
It's the obnoxious aggressionquadrant.
So they're obnoxious, they'reaggressive.
They might be brilliant, butthey bring down morale and those
(10:57):
are not people you want in theoffice.
Those are the people you wanton your team and those certainly
are not leaders that peoplewill want to follow.
Now, people might follow theruinous envy because they're
silent, they corrupt people'smistakes and they care.
People will definitely followthose people for a little while,
but they won't get greatresults because they burn
(11:17):
themselves out.
Where you want to be is in thatradical candor quadrant where
they care personally andchallenge directly.
At the very beginning of thisepisode, I talked about how you
have to establish that you careabout the person before they are
open to feedback.
Well, it's not good enough justto establish it.
(11:39):
You have to continue to care.
As you're giving feedback, it'sto couch it, and I don't like
the term couching it becauseyou're not really couching it.
It's not a sandwich that wewere all taught in elementary
school.
If you are a Gen X, amillennial or even Gen Z, you're
told to say something nice andthen say something direct and
then say something nice again.
(11:59):
No, no, no, no.
Ridiculous.
All that does is make peoplethink that when they hear
something nice about themselves,they're going to hear something
that they need to improve onlater.
So they tend to not trust thatnice thing.
Because most of the time, peoplemade it up have this radical
(12:27):
candor that people willeventually want to follow.
And I'm going to give you alittle bit of a caveat here,
because even with pouching it,even with having empathy and
caring about people five to 10%of people are going to take that
feedback and absolutely throwit in your face, absolutely get
defensive.
They will look at that and saynot me, I don't need that and I
(12:50):
didn't ask you for feedback inthe first place.
10% okay.
They usually come around.
At almost every place that I'veworked actually, every place
that I've worked, I try toembody this radical candor and
my colleagues end up in thistight knit, beautiful team that
(13:11):
all also exhibit radical candor.
So all they need is an exampleand maybe a little training.
I used to give corporatetrainings on this, so you're not
seeing my corporate training onthis.
Maybe I will make that and putit on YouTube, but it's so
valuable because without this,your team ends up just storming
(13:32):
and never, ever norming orperforming.
So you have to learn how togive feedback and take feedback.
That's another podcast episode.
Let me just give you an example.
I had a guy on my team who wasnot doing his job all that well.
We were doing a marketdevelopment project and he was
taking a long time to follow up.
He wasn't saying the thingsthat I thought he should know
(13:55):
about the products.
We were losing some momentuminstead of gaining it, and if
you are launching a product ordeveloping one, you need a full
support for marketing.
You need to launch marketdevelopment.
I mean, if you want to developsomething that people will want
to use, you have to get peopleinvolved, right.
(14:16):
So I had this team of people itwas really me kind of driving
it.
We had marketing guys, we hadmarket development One like half
of a person.
We had my assistants, projectmanagers, who are developing the
project.
Everyone was involved.
I'll just say that everyone wasinvolved, even sales and
technology.
They were all involved in thisbecause I wanted them all to
(14:39):
have a touch point withcustomers.
It's important to develop greatproducts.
People need to know who theircustomers are, what they want
and their future.
And so we were launching thisthing and or developing it
pre-launch and we were losingmomentum, mostly because the
customers were not being talkedto, they were not being
(15:01):
communicated with.
So I went up to it and, if youknow me at all or have worked
with me at all, I get kind ofmad when people aren't doing
their jobs.
I just get a little angry.
Like you said said you weregoing to do this.
I don't see any reason youcan't.
Let's do it, just do it.
That's my attitude, but that'snot really terribly helpful.
(15:21):
And I care about the people onmy team.
I absolutely do.
I care about them as people.
I mean I have, when people haveinjuries and they're nearby,
I've made meals and dropped themoff, like I really and that's
just one example.
But like I really do care aboutpeople, I'm just super blunt
(15:42):
too and I can fall in thatobnoxious aggressor category
because the way that Icommunicate doesn't always
communicate that I care.
So here's why I'm helping youand why we're going through this
right now because I had tolearn this.
I had to learn to be nice andshow that I cared, but also be
straightforward.
So I went up to him and I said,hey, I'm curious what's going
(16:04):
on.
I'd love to know, can we do acheck-in?
Do you have a moment, do youhave 30 minutes in the next week
where we can do a check-in?
I'm curious on what's going onand what I can do to support you
.
And he he knew that he wasbehind in some of this work.
He knew, because I had askedhim for follow-ups for different
(16:24):
things, that I wanted to knowhow to support him because I
wanted him to do his job.
So we scheduled a meeting andget this.
So scheduled a meeting so that Iknew that he would be receptive
to feedback.
He knew it was coming.
We sat down and I said hey, canyou tell me what's going on in
(16:46):
your life, what is going on inyour workload?
I want to know how to supportyou and if your workload is too
high, if you don't have thework-life balance that you want.
So we went into discussing hislife and some things that
happened.
Somebody in his family wasgetting sick and I trusted the
guy.
This is all real stuff, I mean.
(17:06):
Eventually we were Facebookfriends, verified absolutely.
Somebody was getting sick andhe was having to pick up some
slack at home.
So I asked him what can we do tosupport you?
What part of this is too much?
Where do you need to focus inyour role and what would make
you feel accomplished?
Now, if your leader saidsomething like that to you, how
(17:31):
would that make you feel Reallysupported?
Right, you'd feel supersupported.
Yeah, something is going on athome.
Yeah, I am having troubleconcentrating.
Hey, if we schedule parallelworking meetings, I think I can
concentrate on work.
Hey, if we do whatever thesuggestion is, I'll be able to
(17:53):
do my job a little bit better.
So we did that.
He needed a little bit ofsupport.
I come to find out that'scalled body doubling.
It helps me too.
So we scheduled meetings wherewe could work just alongside
each other, silent.
We were not talking to eachother, we were not even working
on the same projects.
We were just sitting in a roomworking alongside each other.
(18:16):
And when people go by and theysee two people in a room working
alongside each other, theythink they're in a meeting so
they don't bother.
It was great.
Here's the big point Be direct.
I was direct in that meeting,said hey, we're missing some of
the deadlines.
I want to make sure that ourcustomers are getting the
support that they need.
What can I do to support you sothat we can make sure that this
(18:40):
is happening?
And he told me because he knewthat I cared and I really did.
It was a true caring and he sawthat across the team too, and
I'm sure he talked about it Now,whenever I am doing any sort of
leadership coaching with peopleand they are trying to figure
out how to get promoted, sothey're in the promotion group
(19:03):
or they're in leadership andmanagement group coaching or I'm
doing one-on-one managertraining, whatever it is.
Oftentimes we'll talk about thisfeedback because it's so
crucial.
Oftentimes we'll talk aboutthis feedback because it's so
crucial.
It is so crucial and I get alot, of, a lot of different
responses that's not my job.
It's never gone well before.
I'm afraid to give feedback.
(19:28):
So those are the people who aresilent, but they care.
I'm afraid to give feedbackbecause I don't want people not
to like me or the people who areobnoxious aggressors say it's
never gone well before.
Well, if you are listening tothis podcast, you want to be a
manager or at least a leaderpeople want to follow.
You need two things.
You need the courage to bringthings up.
You need to use that SBI modelso situation, behavior and
(19:52):
impact.
You need to show people thatyou care throughout the
discussion and you need to beconstructive and really put some
action to your words.
Support people when you ask howto support them, but don't be a
doormat.
So that means saying I'll takea little bit of this burden off
(20:12):
your shoulders and we can sourceit from the rest of the team.
It's not saying I'm going to doyour job for you.
That is a silent doormat right.
Instead, it's saying let'sfigure out how we can do this
and if there are otherarrangements that we need to
make, we'll make them.
That doesn't mean, hey, I'mgoing to fire you or I'm going
to report you to your boss.
That just means we're going tofigure this out together.
(20:36):
Stay open to suggestions,understand and respond with
empathy.
When they tell you thatsomething is going on, say, wow,
that really sounds like it'stough.
I would be really sad if I werein your situation.
I can see that this isaffecting you and I'm so sorry
that you're going through thissituation.
So respond with empathy.
Establish that you care,continue to care and work it
(21:02):
through with that other person.
That is how you give feedback.
That and I'll tell you what 99%of the time, as long as they're
open, so you've scheduled atime for it, right.
99% of the time, as long asthey're open, so you've
scheduled a time for it, right.
99% of the time, it will gowell, maybe 98.
It will go well.
Now, if you don't schedule timefor it, you have a much higher
(21:24):
chance of it not going well.
That's when you get to your 10%mark of people who are like
yeah, no, I didn't ask for this.
Follow those steps and it willgo well.
Now here's how you apply it.
Let's say you are a marketingmanager or product manager, or
maybe you're in sales, somewherewhere you work on a team.
(21:45):
Right, you're not a lone wolf.
You do work with other people,and that is by and far almost
everyone here.
Right, Everyone who's listeningto this works on a corporate
team somehow, or in a team in anonprofit somewhere.
Right, look at how you canimprove yourself and ask for
(22:11):
feedback.
Ask for feedback from thepeople around you.
And you know what?
I'm sure, if you're listeningto this, you're going wait.
No, that wasn't the point.
That's not what we discussedtoday.
Well, in order to have yourfeedback received, you have to
be open to getting feedback too.
So, ask for feedback.
That is your first step tobeing able to give feedback.
(22:32):
Ask for feedback, receive it.
Well, make some changes.
Show that you are faithful,available and teachable.
Show that you are willing togrow, because if you're not
willing to grow, nobody is goingto want to take your
suggestions to grow, becausethen people will just peg you as
somebody who is demanding andself-centered and all that stuff
(22:54):
.
If you want to start thisprocess, start it with yourself.
Start it with getting feedback,growing yourself, becoming more
of a team player, and then youcan follow this model and give
feedback.
Anyway, I hope this was helpful.
I hope you learned a little bitmore about how to be a leader
(23:17):
People want to follow, how tobecome management material.
Now go do it.
Go do it.
Get some feedback yourself,receive it, change how you work,
become more of a part of theteam and then be equipped with
everything we just talked aboutto give feedback in a way that
cares to give feedback withradical candor and not in an
(23:41):
obnoxiously aggressive kind ofway, not in a silent enabler
kind of way, not with maliciousinsincerity, but with radical
candor.
All right, I hope this helpedand I will see you in the next
episode.
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