February 24, 2025 • 50 mins
What if the stereotype that good men are hard to find is just a myth? Join us on this enlightening journey with guests Leon Cohen, Delva Michel, and Justin Bradford as we challenge preconceived notions about men's faithfulness. Leon’s unwavering commitment to his marriage of nearly 18 years sets the stage for a discussion on the importance of surrounding oneself with loyal individuals. Through candid conversations, we explore how the company we keep can shape our beliefs about fidelity, casting new light on monogamy as a conscious choice rather than an obligation.
Our exploration takes a personal turn as we navigate the evolution of monogamy, combining personal experiences with biblical principles. I share my journey through marital challenges and how choosing fidelity amidst societal pressures has reshaped my views on commitment. Delva, my co-host, offers a poignant recount of emotional infidelity, highlighting the nuances of boundaries and respect within relationships. The dialogue reminds us that genuine love requires discipline, communication, and the courage to uphold promises, all of which are essential in fostering meaningful partnerships.
As we dissect stereotypes and explore the complexities of desire, we underscore that personal growth and self-reflection are integral in attracting fulfilling, faithful relationships. From setting clear standards to challenging our own biases, the episode offers a roadmap to understanding and nurturing love based on integrity and mutual respect. Tune in for an engaging conversation that promises to redefine how we perceive loyalty and the daily commitment required to sustain authentic connections.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Okay, now you start talking to her.
You're seducing her a littlebit.
You guys order some drinks up.
Okay, now she starts, go deeper.
Shirt comes off, her clothescome off.
Now y'all in the bed.
Now y'all are tussling.
Now go deeper.
Then you wake up the nextmorning, lose yourself.
Would you be happy if your lifewas on film and it just
captured that moment.
Speaker 2 (00:31):
Damn.
That's either the death of theego or it's going to light up a
new, a new you, because you'regoing to be like, oh, I would
say you know this is going tosound crass, but I have to say
it.
Can men be faithful?
This seems to be this crazyconsensus.
It's kind of a rare thing andall the good ones are taken, but
maybe there is a correlationbetween what you're thinking and
what you're attracting.
I don't know.
Just maybe the men that I knoware wonderful people.
(00:52):
They are all in greatrelationships.
So I invited two of my friends,leon Cohen and Delva Michelle,
who have both been inlongstanding marriages and are
faithful men.
I've also invited a young man,justin Bradford, because of his
solid philosophy and why hebelieves.
(01:12):
I appreciate you guys so muchfor joining the conversation
today.
If it's your first time, makesure you hit the follow button
so you could know when theepisodes are released every
Monday.
Welcome to Manhood Matters.
Let's get right to it.
Thanks for being here again.
(01:32):
I appreciate you guys.
Leon, back with us.
I definitely wanted you herefor this conversation.
You're actually the firstperson I thought about when I
thought about this particularsubject.
I agree, delva, I had to callyou and ask you if you were
qualified to have thisconversation and, justin, back
in the living room with us.
So I kind of know where yourheart is and kind of what your
(01:56):
philosophy is.
But it'll be interesting to getyour take on this as well.
I talk to a lot of women, youknow, and the consensus is there
are no good men out there.
Right, we hear that a lot.
The other thing that we hear ismen cannot be faithful.
Right, there's infidelity.
If there is, if given theopportunity that men will step
out.
And I thought that's not whatI've seen.
(02:19):
I've seen a lot of that.
Obviously, right, I'm not, Idon't live under a rock.
I've seen a lot of it, butthat's not who I am and that's
not what I've seen.
You talked about this, justin,before.
We are the average of the fivepeople we hang out with.
I guess if you hang out arounda bunch of guys, that's really
what they're about you knowyou'd be tempted.
But if you're hanging aroundmen who by the same laws, then
(02:42):
it's very hard for you to dothat and brag about it.
So I want to start with you,leon, like.
The reason I thought about youfirst is I never forgot this.
I had just become a manager atADT, so we were working there.
I want to say the year is 2010.
We went on some convention orwhatever, right?
(03:03):
Yeah, I remember now, and wewere in Savannah, georgia.
That I remember because I had tocome from.
I was in Huntsville, alabama,and I had to travel all the way
to Savannah.
And I remember being in the car.
We were going out to dinnerMyself, leon and some other dude
.
We saw this woman, you know, byany standard was a beautiful
woman, and the dude made acomment and I made a comment and
(03:25):
Leon didn't make a comment.
So you know I forgot what thequestion was.
Maybe we asked you for youropinion or if you'd be
interested in your, and I and Ican't even paraphrase, but I
remember that the gist of it wasyou came back with saying I
have zero interest and evenlooking at other women, cause
I'm a married man, that kind ofshit doesn't interest me.
I'm not distracted by it.
How long you been married 18years.
Speaker 3 (03:47):
It'll be 18 years in July.
Speaker 2 (03:50):
So 2010 was what?
For you then?
That was year number two, justyear number two, and that was
your mindset.
So talk to us about what yourphilosophy is, what is the
compelling drive behind that andwhat's keeping you on the
straight path.
Speaker 3 (04:05):
So the biggest thing for me, what has evolved, is I
told you, like I said, this ismy second marriage and I was I
wouldn't say quote unquoteunfaithful in the first marriage
, but there was, it was adifference.
What changed for me is thatafter I divorced as I mentioned
in the previous podcast, is thatwas a probably the hardest
(04:26):
thing that I've ever had to doin my life, because it was
admitting that I had failed andit was one of the first times
that I ever had to admit failure.
I mean, I've had challenges andcircumstances I've had to work
through before, but not afailure, you know, and not a
broken, a breaking of a promise.
So biggest thing for me is thatwhen I got married the second
(04:47):
time, I said marriage is achoice, right.
You can choose to be married,you can choose to not be married
.
Monogamy is a choice, right.
I could, I could be singletomorrow and go sleep with as
many women as I want to Correct,but if I've pledged my life to
this one and I've pledgedfidelity to this one, then that
is a promise that I need touphold.
But biologically.
Speaker 2 (05:07):
we have a certain need, we have a certain desire.
We lust after women In thissociety.
Right, we live in a monogamoussociety and many societies are
not.
And what they're saying inthose societies is we're going
against you know, our naturaldesire.
So what's keeping you fromdeviating from that path?
Or do you totally feel like isit?
Is it totally natural for you?
(05:28):
Is it effortless or no?
Speaker 3 (05:29):
of course, it's not effortless.
I will be a robot, but thething about it is this you will
see beautiful women, beautifulmen, all the time, depending on,
like I say, if you're a woman,you're going to see a beautiful
man, I'm glad you clarified thatshit real quick.
An attractive right, anattractive man.
If you're a man, an attractivewoman, right, you're going to
see beautiful people all thetime, you're not oblivious to it
(05:50):
.
But I have tried, just asDelvin said, not to put myself
in situations where I'm going tocompromise the principle of
marriage.
Right, so I don't hang out inthe clubs, you know.
Do I get approached by women?
Yes, I have been several times,but the thing that has kept me
is that vow and that promise ofthat it will do more damage and
(06:14):
for however long, that littletime is that you, you know, have
sex with this other person then, to nine minutes.
Speaker 4 (06:24):
yeah, you are, it's a record Speak for yourself.
Speaker 2 (06:25):
It depends on who you are.
Speaker 4 (06:27):
Speak for yourself, I'll be out there for two hours
I got to talk to you.
Speaker 3 (06:36):
Who are you?
Speaker 4 (06:37):
trying to please.
Speaker 3 (06:45):
Hey me.
So, whatever that amount oftime may be, you know is, is it,
is it worth the the residual ofit?
You know I say no, I gottamanage two relationships.
Oh, so much fucking effort,yeah, and and you know what, if
you know what, if it what, ifit's bad, now you gotta try to
get out.
Well, I mean, yeah, you know,trying to try to get out.
Or I always got to look over myshoulder that I could run out
(07:06):
to her in the street and she cansay I had your man.
Speaker 2 (07:10):
Right, not too much Stuck on your name.
Not too many brothers namedLeon Right.
Speaker 3 (07:15):
So I mean, when you, when you weigh the pros and cons
of it, you know it's just forme it's just not, it's just
never been worth it.
Yeah, ok, I see her, Iacknowledge her, she's fine.
She ain't the first fine womanthat I've ever seen in my life.
She won't be the last.
She doesn't need thatacknowledgement.
And the reason why I'mprefacing being quote unquote,
monogamous first time versus thesecond time, the first time I
(07:38):
may have actually entertained aconversation, and you know, but
the difference between me at 28and me at 35 is that growth, to
know there is more damage to bedone by entering that
conversation.
Yeah.
Or it's not worth it, it's notyeah, yeah, you start wearing it
, wearing the risk of it.
So you know, like I said,monogamy for me is a choice,
(07:59):
delva.
Speaker 4 (08:00):
Yes, sir, how long have you been married, brother
22,.
I mean 19 years, but we've beentogether 22.
Okay, I was about to say whyare you?
Speaker 2 (08:08):
confused 19 years.
That's a beautiful thing.
So question that I asked youwhen I called you was a very
personal question.
You know you want to share.
Do you remember what I asked IfI ever stepped out?
Yeah, yeah, You're comfortablewith answering that question.
Speaker 4 (08:21):
Absolutely All right, go for it.
I have emotionally cheated onmy wife once.
Speaker 2 (08:25):
Break that down for us.
Okay.
What do you mean by emotionally?
Speaker 4 (08:27):
cheated on.
To me it wasn't, but becauseshe saw it as that, so I
accepted it Because she wasn'tcomfortable with it.
There's a young lady that Iknow in Connecticut.
She was going through a toughtime in her marriage.
She reached out to me foradvice so we were talking every
night, mostly her marriage.
She reached out to me foradvice, so we were talking every
(08:49):
night mostly on um yahoomessenger.
Speaker 2 (08:50):
That's how old we are .
Damn, I didn't know that was athing.
I I listen, I ain't gonna lieto you, I don't, I don't even
know okay, yeah, it's still athing actually but why you did
like this with your fingers?
Because then she has to be on acomputer, a typewriter it was a
type I mean, we started on this, but you know it's we had oh
there was.
Speaker 4 (09:07):
There was a messenger , okay he took a lot of time
with a t9 uh keyboard, but oh mygod over the head, okay yeah,
um, yes, and then we gotcomfortable.
Yeah, the conversation startedto go into the night, but it's
always about her and her husband.
One night I was in bed and mywife woke me up.
(09:29):
I think it was like 3 am andshe said I'm sorry, your phone
keep going off.
I don't have a lock on my phone, we never have passwords and
all that.
She doesn't check my phone.
I don't check hers Right, butshe felt the need because it was
going and the first message shesent me was she called me Poppy
when is she?
From.
She was from Connecticut, shewas Haitian, but she was born
(09:51):
here.
Speaker 2 (09:52):
Yeah, that's what I meant.
Like so yeah.
Speaker 4 (09:54):
So she's not Latina, but Haitians will call you Poppy
too, uh, that's why she woke meup.
She was like what's, what'shappening?
Who's this?
I'm like, oh my god.
I'm like, all right, this iswhat it is so you explained to
her what it was right then andthere and I'm like you know what
it stops.
Now picked up the phone, calledher and I say it's my fault, I'm
not blaming you, but we can'tnever talk again because my wife
(10:16):
is not comfortable with it andI understand why I wouldn't be
comfortable either.
I'm like I hope you understandthat she was like.
I respect that.
I'm like my wife is listening.
You know you don't have to sayanything, but know that we can't
talk anymore.
That was the last time as faras physically stepping out.
Never I never had the need tofeel like I need something else
and then I always want.
(10:38):
I said to my wife, I to myselfas well I never want to put my
wife in a situation where shefeels like she has to be
uncomfortable, not even knowingwhat's going on.
Speaker 2 (10:48):
Yeah, never.
It's funny you mentioned thething about the phones, but
there is such freedom.
I got to say in my lastrelationship I was married for
10 years Now I've been married.
We're on our third year.
In both relationships I've beenthe example of monogamy.
Relationships have been theexample of monogamy even when I
had reasons to kind of feel that, as we mentioned about the, the
(11:09):
last podcast we talked about,is it ever the woman's fault?
I could have conjured up in myhead a million reasons exactly
why?
well, this was the, this is whyI was then.
There was the need or whateverit was, but I always felt like,
if I have to get to that point,I don't need to be in that
relationship.
So, going, going over to you,young man, what is your
philosophy on monogamy andfidelity?
Do you believe you can be in amonogamous relationship?
(11:31):
Is that the goal, or what areyour thoughts on it?
Speaker 1 (11:33):
Yeah, like I'm very biblical as far as the courting
of a relationship and how to doso.
In Ephesians it talks aboutlike how to make your wife holy
by washing her with the word andall that and instructing on how
to be a good wife and appearsbeautiful, but not externally.
But when it talks about a manand a woman, it obviously talks
about two becoming one in theflesh.
But, more importantly, in Kingswhich, referring to Solomon who
(11:56):
had 700 wives, was the richestman.
I mean he was like the grand ofall grand.
I don't remember the exactverse, but I think it was in
Second Kings where it says youngmen or young kings, do not
spend your strength on women.
The one who ruined kings, andit's a very intentional word
right there where he says women,not woman, and he's singular.
(12:17):
It's plural for a reason becauseI mean even dating it's like
those DMs get hit up Like youtalked about the DMs.
Dating it's like those dms gethit up like you talked about the
dms is what they use now, likethere's options, which gives me
the opinion of who to interactwith and who to take stuff from
and who to not tolerate, whichis a good thing, right, that I
don't have to settle and that Ican have options to court out.
And it's not like just becauseshe's beautiful now I'm
(12:39):
instantly going to be attractedto just her.
But even to that extent's likeI know, when I do get into that
serious relationship, that I amgoing to be a monogamous man.
But it's a lot of theprinciples that are already
being said before me, even withyou just said, as far as the
comfort of not needing to worryabout your phone, as far as what
he talked about not needing toeven emotionally cheating, right
(12:59):
, it's like doing to others asthey would do unto you.
It's like I wouldn't want mywoman talking to some dude.
And like crying about arelationship, because a shoulder
to cry on turns into a to rideon.
You know what?
A shoulder to cry on turns intoa to ride on, to ride on.
Speaker 2 (13:15):
I forgot how biblical you are keeping that shit clean
, but I appreciate it Trying myPR.
You know, Trained, but no inregards to oh and that's very
true, by the way, very, it'sextremely true.
I speak from experience.
Speaker 1 (13:26):
I will tell you but to what you said.
Also, as far as just like um,going and learning to keep your
eyes to yourself, your emotionsto yourself, because of maturity
.
I've been through it too, cause, like maturity comes from
wisdom, wisdom comes fromexperience.
I've been around long enough toknow what's right from what's
wrong.
And if I even open the door foropportunity, like it talks
(13:49):
about in Proverbs heavily onjust the ways of a seductive
woman and how honey would dripfrom her lips, basically saying
that their speech is better thanours.
But in listening to that you arean ox bringing yourself to the
slaughterhouse, knowing that atthe end of your life, when your
flesh and body are spent, youwill groan and say how my heart
hated discipline and I spurnedcorrection.
(14:10):
So like, if you only look forlust, you're never going to find
somebody worth loving.
Because love is a, it's asymbol, but the substance is
sacrifice right.
Everybody wants to love or beloving, but nobody's really
willing to sacrifice the lustpart of them to actually show
that they're loving, show thatthey're faithful, show that
they're in it for the long run.
(14:30):
So as far as, when that womandoes come and I choose willingly
that you are the one that I'mhappy to settle down with not
settle for, but settle down thenit's a matter of communication
boundaries and knowing whatwe're actually trying to achieve
here, because I'm not going tobe the secondary mom in my
relationship.
I'm not the goo-goo-ga-ga typeof this and that I'm very.
(14:54):
These are the roles.
Eve was made from the rib to bea helper.
It talks about this a lot in 1Timothy as well.
As far as a woman's role versusa man's and if a man is worthy
of submitting to what hisstandard should be, how he
should lead, how he should love,and because I'm going to be the
man that's following thoseprinciples and I've first
already submitted to Christ,it's like I would expect that
woman to follow in line andsubmit to the man.
Speaker 2 (15:15):
Would you say it's easy?
Actually, it's never easy.
Speaker 4 (15:19):
Easier.
Speaker 2 (15:20):
It's easier if you're principled in that way and
you're rooted in the Bible inthat sense, because I'm not
Right, so would you say?
You know, I'm a believer.
Obviously I'm surrounded bythree.
And Leon just frowned, lookedat me like nigga, what?
No, I mean I was raised aroundit, I mean it was all around me
and I've read the Bible.
You know that's not aconversation, but I will tell
(15:40):
you that I'm very spiritual butI'm not as rooted in the word as
you are, not nearly.
I don't know so many people whoare.
By the way, in terms of like,you know your passages well and
you can quote them, but not justto say some wild dumb shit, but
you actually use them in a waythat it has everything to do
with what we're talking aboutand it makes sense and it
applies, and it applies in reallife.
I think if most people use itthat way, it would be more, it
(16:00):
would be better received, asopposed to just quoting it just
like nonsensically.
Do you find that it's easierfor you to dismiss that
temptation?
Speaker 1 (16:07):
Absolutely, and I'll say why.
Because it became easier once Istopped believing in God but
started to know God, likethere's a difference between
reading the Bible and learningthe Bible, because I treat it
like a study guide underlineeverything, circle it.
I mean every day at four in themorning I'm posting a passage
out of it.
(16:28):
Every day I'm texting 10 of myfriends and my accountability
group my verse of the day andthe interpretation.
Every single day, or even today, like at seven o'clock, we'll
have a righteous reset and it'sprobably 75 men from ages 25 to
50.
And that's a group that I leadat 22 to where people come to me
to get biblical guidance on howto righteously reset themselves
(16:48):
.
Because with me and my past,especially in Cashville, nash
Vegas, whatever you want to callit I was a player, serial
player.
I'm talking about Australiancattle dog.
I'm talking about I'm the lightskin on tender gold 500 matches
in two weeks and it's over.
It's like sushi date.
All right, we're going to playJenga, all right.
(17:08):
Loser got a back massage, allright, same thing.
Yeah, lost myself to lust, thebiggest demon.
Lost my community but felt likeI was gaining financial freedom
.
So at the time, externally Iwas winning, but inside I was
losing, and to have theawareness, to internalize.
That was everything.
Because then, when I start toknow God, it's like that moral
(17:31):
compass and the conviction iswhat pops out, because what I
would call my spiritual giftingis discernment and the ability
to take what's big and scary andmake it very simple and warming
To where, even if you'reungodly, you feel guilt.
All these things that we havewhen we don't even know God.
When you know God, it onlyheightens itself.
So, like with my past self, itwasn't that I made a decision,
(17:54):
it's that I felt disgust.
Speaker 2 (17:56):
I'm not going to ask you how you would answer to that
, but those guys have lived muchlonger.
They've been in longrelationships.
How have you maintained this?
You know this fidelity to yourmarriage, to your woman, even
when you could have gotteneasily, could have gotten away
with it.
You, as a traveling musician,you're gone a lot Weeks at a
time, so there's no like, oh,they'll know me, you're all the
(18:16):
way in freaking Madagascar andyou know, on the East coast of
Africa doing a concert Ifsomeone meets you.
I've always asked men thisquestion.
I said you know, if you couldjust go ahead and be with
someone never even know theperson's name, they don't have
any way to contact you, theydon't even know your name, they
just see you on stage.
You like you, whatever hour,whatever setting, would you do
it knowing that there is no waythis ever follows you anywhere?
Speaker 4 (18:39):
obviously I wouldn't, because I have not right.
And then those situationspresent themselves all the time.
It goes back to the work.
I don't want men to take thisand run with it and make excuses
.
Oh well, that's the way we'rewired.
But you have to do the work foryourself.
I'm going to tell you one way Ikeep myself out of trouble is
to never I think you said thattoo don't put yourself in a
position where you know youcan't get out.
(18:59):
That that's one.
That's why I don't go out and Icut some friends out Because,
like you say, you are theaverage of your friends, right?
Speaker 2 (19:07):
That's right.
Speaker 4 (19:07):
So if you know your friends in a certain way, cut
that.
Speaker 2 (19:10):
And that's the majority of all these musicians
anyway.
Speaker 4 (19:13):
Absolutely and.
Speaker 2 (19:13):
I hate to just put them all in a box, but that's
shit, I've lived it.
Speaker 4 (19:20):
That's why I mean if they a lot of guys you see I'm
playing with that will never beto my house, we'll never go out
for drinks, we'll never goanywhere.
But I'm going to tell you onething If you don't do the work,
there is no way you could befaithful because of the way we
are as men.
There's an estimated 8 to 11million of animal species out
there just on land and ocean.
Only 11 of them 1, 2, five,eleven they actually have life
(19:50):
partners.
Even then they step out if thethe female can't give birth or
the male, uh, have a lower genethat the female wants.
So there's really none of them.
That's really monogamous.
So, which means that's just theway we're wired.
But if you do the work, if yourespect your principle, you set
some principle and stick to them, you could do it, and then it
becomes easier.
Beautiful women's all going tobe around, right?
Speaker 1 (20:11):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (20:11):
I mean, wherever you go, there's this club that I
play.
I'm playing in tonight.
There's three bartenders,beautiful people, it's funny.
Not recently one came to me.
He said why are you so mean?
He said like you've been cominghere for about two years.
Speaker 1 (20:31):
You never asked me for my name if I need a drink, I
come to the bar and order adrink.
I don't need to know your nameand it's so environmental.
I always give people thisquestion because it makes them
like, sit down on the on the way, we're hardwired.
And I ask it to a girl actuallywho says, well, no, I got guy
friends, but they're just First.
I'll make them call that guyfriend and say, hey, I'm feeling
for you.
Would you want to see me too?
And they fold.
But even away from that, evenjust like off the principle, I
(20:52):
go okay, a Lamborghini, we'llcall it a Rolls Royce.
If you lock that car, you wouldtrust that it locks.
Absolutely Everybody wouldtrust that you click the.
It's a nice $300,000 car, it'sgonna lock.
Would you park it in the hood?
I don't know, probably not.
But you trust the locks ExactlyBecause the environment is
dangerous.
Yes, I trust my girl, I trustmyself, but I know the
(21:15):
environment is dangerous.
So why would I put my nice mostvaluable asset, most valuable
asset, my time that I've spentbuilding with this person, the
energy I've connected over thefoundation and the plan that
we're trying to accomplish whywould I go, take it into the
hood for one night, even thoughI still trust the locks.
Speaker 2 (21:29):
That is good, that is very good.
Are we then saying, based onthat analogy you just made there
, that environment obviouslyplays a big factor, but could we
not transcend beyond thosetemptations?
Regardless of environment, youcould.
Speaker 1 (21:44):
but it's more tempting.
Why would you open the door tothe devil when you see that he's
knocking and you can lookthrough the peephole?
Absolutely.
Speaker 3 (21:51):
Let's see so 18 years .
Have there not been situationsthat have presented themselves,
or have at least been temptingAbsolutely?
Speaker 2 (22:00):
Oh well how tall are you?
6'2", 6'3", because that seemsto be under your body Almost
6'4".
Yeah, that's everybody's list,right?
What are you 6'1"?
Justin, I'm 6'0" 6'0", 6'3" Igot some boots on.
Speaker 4 (22:13):
Hey, I'm 5'7".
It's available to me.
Speaker 2 (22:26):
You know what I'm saying?
Same bro.
So so you know.
Um, yeah, you meet one of those.
You know, I didn't mean tointerrupt, but you definitely.
You walk in the room, you meetone of those criteria that the
first thing these women say askthem to describe the list.
So they do, they want first andthey say some shallow shit,
like well, you gotta be over sixfeet tall.
You know, I'm like, yeah,that's what you're about to get
hurt because you said nothing ofsubstance.
That should be like yeah, that'swhat you're about to get hurt
Because you said nothing ofsubstance.
That should be on the list ifthat's what you like, but it
can't be not.
It can't be the first thing onthe list.
(22:47):
But go ahead, brother, I'msorry.
Speaker 3 (22:48):
No.
So I'm just saying you knowthere are, you know I'm not
Superman and that was the thingthat came out of the first
divorce is to realize thatvulnerability, that you're not
Superman, that you do fail, thatyou do have frailties, that you
do.
And that was the hardest partfor me in that first divorce was
(23:10):
admitting that failure,admitting that I was not the
person that in my mind I thoughtI was.
And that was tough because youhave to confront you and the
image of who you thought youwere and you realize that you
are not.
But where I was going with thatin the 18 years is that?
So you met me at year two.
(23:30):
Have there been times over that16 year period that there have
been vulnerabilities?
Of course, and probably for her, but I never want to know it, I
would never ask her, but whathas sustained it is God and his
grace.
When those situations occur orhave occurred, something happens
to make them not go forward orfurther than what?
Speaker 2 (23:51):
they Just an initial thought.
Speaker 3 (23:53):
Right, that initial quick you know, fleeting thought
, or even a conversation.
Right, you might be inconversation with somebody and
it turns left and you're like,oh you got to remove yourself.
Speaker 4 (24:01):
Yeah, you're like oh, you got to remove yourself.
Speaker 3 (24:02):
Yeah, you're like.
Oh, you know, it just startsout as a friendly deal and then
it becomes something that isgoing to go left.
Speaker 2 (24:11):
So you know, it's interesting.
When I was much younger, Ireally had almost nothing to
pull from.
There were no mentors, therewere no dudes around me.
All the guys that I hung outwith were older than me were no
mentors.
There were no dudes around me.
All the guys that I hung outwere older than me and they
would end up looking up to mebecause I had no one to look up
to.
You know, I would.
I would be friends with guyswho were 10 years older than I
was and they were all doing dumbshit, including not just doing,
(24:36):
but bragging about the factthat they had many women and
things like that.
So that's what I saw.
I kind of thought that's justthe way it was how it was
supposed to be.
And I had a conversation withone guy one time a long, long
time ago.
This dude was just roughlyabout my age and he made he kind
of alluded to what you talkedabout, justin, is how to do unto
others as you would have themdo unto you.
(24:58):
The conversation from anotherwoman came up and he basically
said why would I ever need to dothat?
And they weren't married, theywere just dating.
But his whole mindset was ifshe would ever do that to me.
And I found out yeah is, and Ithink he goes.
I think about that.
I think about that pain anddiscomfort and I'm not willing
(25:18):
to do that to someone else.
Speaker 3 (25:19):
That's that same you know, that's that's been, that's
been a stopping factor for meas well.
Speaker 4 (25:25):
Yeah, that is somebody who's done the work.
Speaker 3 (25:28):
Yeah, and other times we're talking about like a very
young person.
Speaker 2 (25:31):
at that point he might have been 20, 21.
You know what I mean and thisis.
You know I was around that agethen.
Yeah, just kind of like Justinhere.
But you know that wasn't myenvironment.
That was the exception, right.
So in my first marriage, thatmarriage was damned from the
beginning.
You know, it was a lot ofturmoil, a lot of fights and
(25:52):
again, like I said, she is not abad person per se.
You know it was just.
We weren't meant to be together.
You know, we kind of fought.
I got to tell you like in amonth, in 30 days, we might have
two good days in those 30 days.
We're talking hell.
And you knew me then I wasmiserable, right.
It was just really, really bad.
(26:14):
Again, no shade on her, it'sjust what it was.
When the opportunity presenteditself, I took advantage of it
and I never felt good about it.
It was something that I thoughtmade sense.
It was almost somethingrebellious in the sense to where
I was disrespectful, to where Ididn't even need to hide it.
I remember feeling like I hadlost myself, like there was a
(26:36):
sense of hopelessness.
There was a sense of just, Idon't know who I am.
What do you say to someone orhow do you help guide a man who
is struggling with that and thatis not rooted in the church?
I guess I'm good.
Speaker 1 (26:51):
I actually like he speaks on doing the work, like
last year when I talked to thatcoach and he said he couldn't
coach me.
I was like because you saidthat I need just one session and
he was like no.
I was like yes, and then I thatI need just one session and he
was like no.
I was like yes, and then Ipitched my price at him.
He accepted it.
He was like you know what Fineit's February 1st, it'll be
Black History Month.
I got you.
It's like I love it.
(27:11):
Now, the only thing that heactually told me from the first
call he was interested in divingdeeper as far as my perspective
was my outlook on women and myrelationship dynamic and how I
view that and what I'm lookingfor right now.
All that good stuff.
So in my conversation with him,there was one thing that I took
out of it which was fantastic,and the second thing is what
(27:34):
somebody could do in thatsituation you just talked about.
The first thing that he helpedme realize which a lot of
high-performing men willencounter.
The first thing that he helpedme realize which a lot of
high-performing men willencounter is a leakage in the
way that they compartmentalizethemselves so, like as an
ambitious man, I'm ambitious allaround.
Spiritually, I want to getbetter.
Physically I want to get better.
Financially, mentally,relationally, I always want to
(27:56):
get better.
What that means is I pushmyself to a point of exhaustion.
I see what the bar looks like,but the next time I go at it,
what do I want?
More, more, more, and I woulddo that all around, but it would
leak over with my relationships, meaning I would talk to a girl
Okay, she's funny, she's pretty, she's not that smart.
(28:16):
Okay, next date she's funny,she's pretty, she got to be
smart.
Okay, she's smart, she has abad family relationship.
Well, that's my new bar Nextdate, funny, pretty, smart, good
family, bunch of exes or abunch of.
And it would keep on stackingto where I was trying to like,
almost craft this perfect girlwhen it's not about it's not
(28:39):
perfection, it's progression.
So it's finding a girl that iscompatible to the things that I
don't want, but she's willing towork on the things that I want
out of sacrifice and developingherself.
So when he gave me thatawareness of where I was falling
short as a man just byconversating with him this is
not a licensed therapist, thisis a guy that played for the
(29:00):
Kansas City Chiefs, had hiscareer cut short and now he's in
Miami doing coaching, and hewas a guy that told me he
couldn't coach me but gave methe best coaching I've ever
received, cause that awarenessis what's going to help me
actually build a foundation withthe right woman and bring fruit
out of it.
But now the second thing thathe told me on that call cause
he's very like, deeply connectedspiritually not biblical at all
(29:21):
.
But then the guy had me walkthrough the desire to where it
could either lead you todarkness or light.
If it leads you to light,that's going to be something
scary.
If it leads you to dark, goodjob.
You had the death of the egoMeaning if you said, okay, what
if I did holler at that girl?
Or if you said what if I did goto that bartender.
(29:42):
Well, now take it farther,because that's just the surface.
Okay, you're forging Steve.
Okay, she says something.
Okay, you get her name.
Okay, you get her.
Now go deeper.
Okay, she sends you a text whenyou're leaving.
Okay, she says there's a hotelright here.
Okay, you meet her at the hotelright Now.
(30:07):
You get the room and she'sright there behind you, the
security cameras.
Now you're on camera with herand then you go up to the room
and go deeper.
Okay, now you start talking toher.
You're seducing her a littlebit.
You guys order some drinks up.
Okay, now she starts.
Get go deeper.
Shirt comes off, her clothes,come off.
Now.
Y'all on the bed.
Now y'all are tussling it.
Now go deeper.
Then you wake up the nextmorning, lose yourself.
Would you be happy if your lifewas on film and it just
captured that moment?
Damn, that's a good one,because you got to sit there and
that's either the death of theego or it's going to light up a
(30:29):
new you, because you're going tobe like ooh.
Speaker 2 (30:33):
I would say you know this is going to sound crass,
but I have to say it that wayyou're with someone you don't
want to be with physically.
You said go deeper and godeeper.
And you talk about the next day, the next morning, the second
sex is over.
You realize what you've done.
Immediately, you immediatelydon't want to be there.
You're immediately talkingabout get off me.
(30:54):
I miss my wife.
Speaker 1 (30:56):
But now, what if you did, though?
What if?
What if you?
What if you got done right?
And this is the light side ofit.
Now, what if you enjoyed it?
What if you want to stay forsome little cuddles afterwards
and you wanted to go getbreakfast in the morning and you
wanted to stay in?
Because now you're seeing thelight that got brought to your
darkness, because, gabe, he'sthe guy that leads our Bible
study.
He said this so good in ourcall last Sunday.
He said secrecy is the oxygenfor addiction, secrecy.
(31:22):
So you have all these desiresthat you stuff in your closet,
which die off like skeletons,but in reality they just come to
life when every other lightgoes off and nobody's looking.
Because I always say this yourtestimony comes from your test.
When you're lonely, that's whenyou get tempted.
That's when you get tempted.
That's when we get tempted whenwe're lonely, because that's
(31:45):
when we're starting to see allthese other things and we're not
seeing it for what it is.
Speaker 2 (31:47):
Because now, we have nobody holding us accountable.
Now we're actually tested.
A lot of men who cheat man.
They're not even lonely, bro, Imean they can be, and not if
they're cheating.
Speaker 1 (31:53):
They're just alone.
Speaker 2 (31:53):
Someone's there yeah, yeah, in a sense right.
I mean we're talking aboutpeople who have, at least on the
surface.
I mean, you know, you don'tknow what's going on inside
someone's home, but we'retalking about someone who has
what seems to be a good marriage.
There's a great person at home.
You know the fact that she's awonderful woman.
You can see that right.
Let's say, I know the coupleright.
You can see this person iswonderful in every way.
The person's a good mother, agood provider for the family.
(32:25):
Take care it presents itself.
They take advantage of it,totally detached from the
reality of it and in their mindlong gone, goodbye.
It doesn't matter.
It happened, it's in the past.
It doesn't have any residualeffect and I argue that it does
right.
It does have a residual impacton you.
That energy that is exchangedis one thing.
What you're bringing home toyour wife is another, Because
(32:48):
you know you're having sex withthis person A lot of times it's
going to be unprotected.
Even if it is protected sex,you're still taking a chance.
There's none of that.
Shit is 100%.
So you have all these differentthings.
I guess what I'm getting at isyou have these guys who are just
like the excuse is the gaugethat governs them, the.
I can't help it, I'm a guy.
It's just what guys do, youknow, like?
(33:10):
What do you say to that Like?
Speaker 3 (33:12):
I'm sorry.
I think it goes back to whatJustin said in a previous
podcast where, you know, men arenaturally divided into hunters
and gatherers.
Our instinct is to hunt and sofor a lot of guys it's just the
thrill of the chase and youcatch and you release.
Sometimes the hunter getscaptured by the game and you
can't release.
You have to be cognizant as aman in order to stay monogamous
(33:35):
of that hunter instinct, becauseit never goes away.
Is it ever enough?
When is it enough?
Speaker 2 (33:42):
I have.
I mean, I never get into thesedebates with these women because
I don't know them personally.
You know, these are people thatI'll see on social media, but
they are.
There's this belief that menoverall cannot be faithful.
They are cheaters and they justit's just what it is.
You just have to deal with it.
You know, oftentimes I want tokind of scream out and be like
what are you guys doing?
(34:02):
You're taking a subset of agroup right, a tiny, tiny sliver
of it, because this is what youare attracting.
You know, cat Williams said itbest one time you have to figure
out what it is about you thatattract these no good ass men.
And they keep attracting thesame men.
They don't realize it's thesame man, different face, but
(34:23):
it's the same man you just keepbringing towards you.
There's a reason that women whoare in abusive relationships
tend to end up in anotherabusive relationship.
You come out of one, you end upinto another, and another and
another, until you fix somethingabout yourself so you no longer
attract that.
(34:46):
So if you attract a man thatcannot be faithful to you,
that's just something thatyou're doing, again, not your
fault, but you're attractingthat type of person into your
environment and then you go andgeneralize and say all men are
cheaters, no man can be faithfuland etc.
Etc.
So I want to push back and andand can you guys talk about that
and about, like, the dudes thatyou know and the men in your
circle and things like that, andthe people who've had
successful marriage, thosesuccessful relationships?
You know how?
You know how are they doing?
(35:06):
Because they're not theexception.
That is the rule.
Speaker 1 (35:08):
I believe the cheaters are the exception,
that's that's super wrong,though, as far as them saying
men are cheaters, because thedifference, in my opinion, from
a boy to a man, because there'sno true indicator of when a boy
becomes a man, at least like inthis lifetime, there's just no,
and you can't say 21, or I haveone what?
Speaker 2 (35:25):
so?
This is something that jimrohan said.
Um, the transition to adulthoodis when you accept and you take
full responsibility for yourlife.
Yeah, once you do that, thenyou become an adult.
Speaker 1 (35:37):
It's not an age that makes you an adult what makes
you a man, and what I'm gonnasay from listening to all this
and just like analyzingcharacter here, is like, what
makes you a man is when it'sbigger than you.
That's what makes you a man,because a boy it's not bigger
than him, it's just him and hislust and his desires and his
goals and his but.
A man is looking for the future, he's looking for the family,
(35:57):
he's looking for faith.
He's looking for faith.
He's looking for all thesethings that are much bigger than
just the self.
Speaker 2 (36:04):
So it's like anything else, right, it's like healing,
it's like success.
None of these things are adestination.
They are a journey, journey, somonogamy itself.
Speaker 3 (36:12):
Based on what your guys are saying, this is
something you continuallypractice on a daily basis, and
you make decisions that alignwith that, so that you're not
ever in a situation where andit's hard bro- that's what she
said.
Speaker 4 (36:25):
It's hard.
Yeah, I've never been analcoholic, but you got to treat
it like a recovering alcoholic.
Yes, because the thing is younever recovered.
Once you get comfortable, youget that next drink.
You undo 20 years of sobriety,correct.
And I have a question for youguys on the panel, because we
use that a lot as men, do youthink sex is a need Shit?
(36:47):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (36:47):
Yeah, well, I do, and the reason why, in his wisdom
he probably has this probably atrick-ass question.
So be careful.
Speaker 3 (36:54):
No, no, no, it's just but it's not a trick question.
You answer and I'll answer yeah, I, I think it is a need,
because it is an instinct thatyou don't suppress, right?
So that tells me it's a need,right?
So even priests who vowcelibacy sometimes break it and
(37:18):
can't suppress it, right, theymight try to mask it by messing
with a little boy, but you stillhad sex, god damn, you weren't
there.
Well, what I'm saying?
So this is why I went there,steph, you know me, I'm going to
keep it 100.
Yeah, they mask it because itis a boy or a male, that they
(37:46):
don't consider it the same asbreaking their vow to God
because it wasn't with a woman.
Speaker 2 (37:51):
So you know, that's why I think sometimes religion
is so obtuse, because you'retricking God, you're tricking
yourself, you're tricking God.
Speaker 3 (37:58):
It's not your mindset , you're tricking yourself.
You're 100% tricking God nothat's what I'm saying You're
thinking you're tricking god.
So am I lying?
Am I lying?
Speaker 1 (38:04):
that's out of human concern where he was rooted.
Yeah, yeah they.
Speaker 3 (38:08):
They will say that that they did, that they have
sinned, but they didn't breaktheir vow because it was not
what they wanted.
Yeah, great job, right on thetechnicality.
Speaker 2 (38:18):
So so, to answer your question, it is a basic
instinct, I think if you'reapproaching it from a deeper
context, what is it really for?
You can say it's to procreate,but I would have to disagree
with that too.
I don't think it's just forthat sole purpose.
Speaker 4 (38:36):
No, no, I'm asking Okay, you're not saying it is.
Speaker 2 (38:38):
I'm not saying it is, so for me it's a way that we
connect in the most intimate waywith another human being that
we deeply, deeply care about,that we love.
Now we waste a lot of ourspiritual energy with the people
we don't care about when wejust go and sleep around and
mess with other people, butthere's a reason, it doesn't
(38:58):
feel bad, right, if it was justlike hey, this is a chore, you
are to have children, this iswhen you do it, this is how it's
done, et cetera, et cetera.
But our society and previoussocieties have been collapsing
from day one because of sex.
So for men, we are governed byit.
I think that I don't thinkthere's no bones about it, man,
(39:20):
I think that it is an absoluteneed for us, it's a need and
it's a basic instinct.
Biologically, I think it's aneed for us.
Yeah, and sperm counts is outof control.
Speaker 4 (39:30):
So I think that I'm sorry.
I'm going to let you answer aswell.
Sorry, before I.
Speaker 1 (39:34):
I think it's a need, but the timing and the frequency
is a want.
Speaker 4 (39:37):
I think that's where I'm at.
Yeah, I think that's where I'mat If we think of it as a need
although it is and then that'swhy a lot of guys say, well, we
have need, you're not giving itto me, I'm going to get
somewhere else.
If it's just a want, all of asudden it's not that important
anymore, and I think that's partof doing the work on yourself.
Speaker 3 (40:00):
So, I mean as early as 10, 11, 12, 13, young men get
erections.
Oh for sure, right, they also.
I mean hell.
Even as an adult, you may havean erotic or wet dream where you
ain't even having intercourse.
But because you're thinkingabout it, right, because you're
thinking about it, it is anatural instinct and release
Right In your sleep.
(40:21):
A natural instinct and releaseright in in your sleep.
So that's why I say I go.
It goes back to me as afundamental need, because it's
it's, it's an urge and it's aninstinct that, even when you try
to suppress it or when youhaven't quote unquote brought it
into your mind as an existence,it still comes and it still
happens as a natural release.
Yeah, you don't have to eventhink about it, I'm not.
Speaker 4 (40:40):
I'm not disagreeing at all.
It's about you it correct.
It pops up in your mind thereare things I don't disagree, you
know it's.
The thing I just wanted topoint out is something we could
work on there to kind of helpyou out.
Speaker 2 (40:53):
It's growing through the discomfort to say how often
is this gonna happen?
I know couples right now whoschedule it and at first I used
to laugh at them.
I used to be like they go,you're doing, what are you?
You schedule sex for friday,right and?
And you know schedule forfridays and and mondays, or
fridays and wednesdays, or justonce a week or whatever it is.
(41:14):
Initially my reaction wasthat's funny, so I wish I might
go ahead and schedule some shitlike that.
Speaker 3 (41:20):
It's, but it changes that you can speak to this too.
It changes and evolves as theyget older.
Speaker 2 (41:26):
Well, it's not.
So that's not what I was going.
Speaker 3 (41:28):
I was just things of that nature.
It changes yeah.
Speaker 2 (41:30):
Well, I was going to the fact that what I appreciate
about those couples and whatthey're doing is life gets in
the way and next thing, you know, intimacy starts to suffer and
now there's resentment and theconversations have been had.
So A you have the conversation.
Second, if you schedule it, ifnothing else, it gives the
person, let's say in this casethe woman we're going to go with
(41:52):
a typical example of the womanhaving a lower sex drive
no-transcript you that thing tolook forward to for.
So it's not for every couple.
I personally would prefer, youknow, just to be spontaneous and
not be like it's seven o'clockfriday where are you?
(42:16):
you know, but you know so, so,but, but I I realize that it
works for for the couples andlistening to you know um other
people speak about it.
There's podcasts that talkabout marriage and successful
marriages, where that's actuallya common thing, more than you
would believe it is, and thesepeople are having amazing
relationships.
I believe, it Amazingrelationships, amazing sex,
(42:36):
amazing everything.
Speaker 1 (42:38):
When sex becomes scheduled, it becomes a chore.
You take away the butterflies,you take away the nerves, you
take away all the naturalemotions that come with the
spontaneous action.
Imagine if God told you whenyou were going to die and he
told you when you were going toget blessed.
It takes away the fun becausethe joy is in the journey.
The joy comes from thosesporadic moments where you
(42:59):
didn't plan it but you got it.
And not just sex, everythingright.
I think if you try to make itsomething so systematic, you
lose the fun of the process.
Speaker 2 (43:09):
So what usually happens in the beginning of the
relationship, where things areexciting, sex is happening all
the time, everything is loving,lustful at the same time, and
it's great.
And then, sometime into therelationship, when things settle
, the man is still like whathappened?
To all the sex?
What happened to all this stuffand it and things you know
settled?
(43:29):
in the woman was like damn, Iwas hoping you wouldn't be as
horny all these years exactlythat's why I married a man who's
older, because I was hoping,you know, you'd be done with
this shit, right, you know?
But yeah, it's.
It's interesting what do yousay to your, to young men who
are in relationships, to kind ofguide them towards this path
that you guys have been onforever and the path that you're
(43:51):
currently on, justin, somethingpractical that you can impart
on those guys?
Speaker 3 (43:55):
What I tell young men is that one when you're young,
you make a lot of decisions offof instinct and you marry for
the wrong reasons a lot of times.
As Justin said lust or looksinstead of love.
If you're going to get in arelationship, if you're going to
get married young, you have tofigure out what your deal
(44:17):
breakers are.
That will allow you to not makecertain mistakes.
And do your deal breakerschange?
Yeah, as you get older, end upin situations where you've
learned from lessons.
Then that bar will always movebecause you will always grow and
change.
Muhammad Ali is my favoriteathlete, one of my favorite
individuals in the world, and hehas a saying that he said if
(44:40):
you're the same person at 50that you were at 20, then you
wasted 30 years of your life.
So that means you have theability and you will evolve.
So those things will change.
Your goals will change.
The person you are shouldchange 100%.
Speaker 2 (44:57):
Good insight, brother .
Final question for you guyswhat's the final words on women
who have, who throw us all intothis one big old mixing bowl and
say, yeah, just you know, stickyour hand in there, yank one
out, it's gonna be a cheater.
More than likely it's gonna bea cheater.
All right, what is it you know?
What is it that you're?
(45:17):
My advice to them is this andI'll compare it.
Speaker 3 (45:20):
I'll compare it to race.
Right?
We, as black people or whitepeople or whatever nationality
there are, will say that thereare bad people in every race,
right?
Or you know, I can speak frommy perspective in a black race.
I don't like white peoplebecause white people didn't do
this, but there have been someof the best thing that have
(45:40):
happened in my life through thehelp or prism of a white person,
right?
So where I'm going with that isis that when you throw everybody
into a box, you usually throwaway a lot of good people.
Treat people individually.
Treat the men that youencounter individually.
Don't throw them all in theboxes, all as cheaters, as all,
as this, as all of that, becausethat's the same as saying all
(46:02):
white people are this, all blackpeople are that, which is what,
which we're in the situationwe're in now.
You know, racially in thiscountry or politically in this
country, you know where you geton.
You get on an elevator, likeyou said in your other podcast,
and because you got the stigmaas a black man some ladies
clutching a person you gotprobably more money in your
pocket than she got in her purseor in the bank.
That's what I would would sayto that would be.
(46:25):
My advice is that you takeevery man you encounter
individually.
You don't encounter them all orput in your mind that they're
all cheaters.
But when they show you thosesigns that they are who you
thought they were, then that'swhen you separate makes sense
well, my advice to them is tolook up the common denominator.
Speaker 4 (46:43):
oh, you saying it's them could be?
Could be because I think wespoke about that earlier.
Yeah, because you attract samepeople all the time.
Especially if you don't changeyour environment, mm, or you
don't do the work on yourself.
You don't know your triggers,you don't know anything.
You just you're the same person, so you're going to keep
attracting the same dude, justin a different shell let's say
that's all I got.
Look at the common denominatorgood one.
Speaker 2 (47:05):
You got anything for us, jay?
Speaker 1 (47:15):
I got two things to the or for the women that are,
um, obviously generalizingeverybody.
Typically, you are what youattract, so there should be a
lot of self-reflection.
If that's the case and you'reonly attracting bad people,
chances are you're probably abad person or you like bad
things.
To the men.
My advice is invest in cat anddog food, cause there's going to
be a lot of lonely women thatalways think that way.
What?
Speaker 2 (47:33):
What I miss.
Is it because I'm tired?
Oh yeah, he must be investingcat?
Speaker 3 (47:36):
No, he didn't say he wasn't.
He thought he was doing a JDVans thing.
That's not what he's doing.
Speaker 1 (47:41):
Invest in cat and dog food, because a lot of these
women that think that way Aregoing to be single For the rest
of their life.
Speaker 2 (47:48):
And have a lot of cats and a lot of dogs.
My friend To the women.
Speaker 1 (47:51):
The stock is going to be up there.
Yeah, and that's my advice Tothe men Invest in cat and dog
food.
Speaker 3 (47:55):
Yeah, let the women Keep thinking that way, so you
can make Some money off of theirloans?
Speaker 1 (47:59):
Yeah, thank you.
There's Profit, isn't?
Speaker 2 (48:03):
the problem, baby, they're going to be alone for a
very, very long time.
Speaker 4 (48:06):
Buy a cat, die alone.
Speaker 2 (48:07):
Yep, Buy a cat die alone, and I'm a prophet.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (48:11):
You're probably my prophet.
Yeah, all right.
Speaker 2 (48:15):
Hey guys, I want to thank you for being here.
You know, leon Delva, justin,this was really really
insightful.
When I look at social media, Isee that some type of gender war
has started and really what itends up doing is it ends up just
destroying families.
It ends up destroying ourrelationships with each other,
and we're not at war.
(48:35):
I don't know what the agenda is, I don't know who's behind it,
I don't know why they're doingit that way, but everything's
politicized.
So one of the things that I sawthat they were using as rocket
fuel was men are cheaters andthere are so many memes and all
it takes is one jaded person togo ahead and take that that has
a platform and just to propagatethat stuff.
(48:58):
A lot of the men I know are notlike that.
They're in happy and solidrelationships.
I wanted to just not only havethe two of you guys who can talk
to your very longstandingrelationship that is a
monogamous one myself and veryhappy with it and just being in
that space, justin, whoseprinciple is rock solid and your
(49:18):
integrity is rock solid.
So those men do exist.
They're out there.
They're not rare.
As you said, delva, it's lookingfor the common denominator,
look for what it is about youthat is making you attract the
person who cannot be faithful,the person who seems to, or puts
you in a position to bedisrespected or, in a lot of
(49:40):
ways, threatens your lifebecause they put you in
situations where you don't evenknow who's out there hating you.
So there's something about thatman.
There's something that you'redoing also that is attracting
that type of person.
So focus on if you go back tothe last podcast focus on doing
the work on yourself, createyour list, set your standards
and work on those things.
We'll catch you next time.
(50:01):
Echoes of fine time, expertsand friends, a powerful blend
Tackling issues that never end.
From our perspective, true ortrue, a podcast for all, but our
point of view.
Okay, now you start talking to her.
You're seducing her a littlebit.
You guys order some drinks up.
Okay, now she starts, go deeper.
Shirt comes off, her clothescome off.
Now y'all in the bed.
Now y'all are tussling.
Now go deeper.
Then you wake up the nextmorning, lose yourself.
Would you be happy if your lifewas on film and it just
captured that moment.
Speaker 2 (00:31):
Damn.
That's either the death of theego or it's going to light up a
new, a new you, because you'regoing to be like, oh, I would
say you know this is going tosound crass, but I have to say
it.
Can men be faithful?
This seems to be this crazyconsensus.
It's kind of a rare thing andall the good ones are taken, but
maybe there is a correlationbetween what you're thinking and
what you're attracting.
I don't know.
Just maybe the men that I knoware wonderful people.
(00:52):
They are all in greatrelationships.
So I invited two of my friends,leon Cohen and Delva Michelle,
who have both been inlongstanding marriages and are
faithful men.
I've also invited a young man,justin Bradford, because of his
solid philosophy and why hebelieves.
(01:12):
I appreciate you guys so muchfor joining the conversation
today.
If it's your first time, makesure you hit the follow button
so you could know when theepisodes are released every
Monday.
Welcome to Manhood Matters.
Let's get right to it.
Thanks for being here again.
(01:32):
I appreciate you guys.
Leon, back with us.
I definitely wanted you herefor this conversation.
You're actually the firstperson I thought about when I
thought about this particularsubject.
I agree, delva, I had to callyou and ask you if you were
qualified to have thisconversation and, justin, back
in the living room with us.
So I kind of know where yourheart is and kind of what your
(01:56):
philosophy is.
But it'll be interesting to getyour take on this as well.
I talk to a lot of women, youknow, and the consensus is there
are no good men out there.
Right, we hear that a lot.
The other thing that we hear ismen cannot be faithful.
Right, there's infidelity.
If there is, if given theopportunity that men will step
out.
And I thought that's not whatI've seen.
(02:19):
I've seen a lot of that.
Obviously, right, I'm not, Idon't live under a rock.
I've seen a lot of it, butthat's not who I am and that's
not what I've seen.
You talked about this, justin,before.
We are the average of the fivepeople we hang out with.
I guess if you hang out arounda bunch of guys, that's really
what they're about you knowyou'd be tempted.
But if you're hanging aroundmen who by the same laws, then
(02:42):
it's very hard for you to dothat and brag about it.
So I want to start with you,leon, like.
The reason I thought about youfirst is I never forgot this.
I had just become a manager atADT, so we were working there.
I want to say the year is 2010.
We went on some convention orwhatever, right?
(03:03):
Yeah, I remember now, and wewere in Savannah, georgia.
That I remember because I had tocome from.
I was in Huntsville, alabama,and I had to travel all the way
to Savannah.
And I remember being in the car.
We were going out to dinnerMyself, leon and some other dude
.
We saw this woman, you know, byany standard was a beautiful
woman, and the dude made acomment and I made a comment and
(03:25):
Leon didn't make a comment.
So you know I forgot what thequestion was.
Maybe we asked you for youropinion or if you'd be
interested in your, and I and Ican't even paraphrase, but I
remember that the gist of it wasyou came back with saying I
have zero interest and evenlooking at other women, cause
I'm a married man, that kind ofshit doesn't interest me.
I'm not distracted by it.
How long you been married 18years.
Speaker 3 (03:47):
It'll be 18 years in July.
Speaker 2 (03:50):
So 2010 was what?
For you then?
That was year number two, justyear number two, and that was
your mindset.
So talk to us about what yourphilosophy is, what is the
compelling drive behind that andwhat's keeping you on the
straight path.
Speaker 3 (04:05):
So the biggest thing for me, what has evolved, is I
told you, like I said, this ismy second marriage and I was I
wouldn't say quote unquoteunfaithful in the first marriage
, but there was, it was adifference.
What changed for me is thatafter I divorced as I mentioned
in the previous podcast, is thatwas a probably the hardest
(04:26):
thing that I've ever had to doin my life, because it was
admitting that I had failed andit was one of the first times
that I ever had to admit failure.
I mean, I've had challenges andcircumstances I've had to work
through before, but not afailure, you know, and not a
broken, a breaking of a promise.
So biggest thing for me is thatwhen I got married the second
(04:47):
time, I said marriage is achoice, right.
You can choose to be married,you can choose to not be married
.
Monogamy is a choice, right.
I could, I could be singletomorrow and go sleep with as
many women as I want to Correct,but if I've pledged my life to
this one and I've pledgedfidelity to this one, then that
is a promise that I need touphold.
But biologically.
Speaker 2 (05:07):
we have a certain need, we have a certain desire.
We lust after women In thissociety.
Right, we live in a monogamoussociety and many societies are
not.
And what they're saying inthose societies is we're going
against you know, our naturaldesire.
So what's keeping you fromdeviating from that path?
Or do you totally feel like isit?
Is it totally natural for you?
(05:28):
Is it effortless or no?
Speaker 3 (05:29):
of course, it's not effortless.
I will be a robot, but thething about it is this you will
see beautiful women, beautifulmen, all the time, depending on,
like I say, if you're a woman,you're going to see a beautiful
man, I'm glad you clarified thatshit real quick.
An attractive right, anattractive man.
If you're a man, an attractivewoman, right, you're going to
see beautiful people all thetime, you're not oblivious to it
(05:50):
.
But I have tried, just asDelvin said, not to put myself
in situations where I'm going tocompromise the principle of
marriage.
Right, so I don't hang out inthe clubs, you know.
Do I get approached by women?
Yes, I have been several times,but the thing that has kept me
is that vow and that promise ofthat it will do more damage and
(06:14):
for however long, that littletime is that you, you know, have
sex with this other person then, to nine minutes.
Speaker 4 (06:24):
yeah, you are, it's a record Speak for yourself.
Speaker 2 (06:25):
It depends on who you are.
Speaker 4 (06:27):
Speak for yourself, I'll be out there for two hours
I got to talk to you.
Speaker 3 (06:36):
Who are you?
Speaker 4 (06:37):
trying to please.
Speaker 3 (06:45):
Hey me.
So, whatever that amount oftime may be, you know is, is it,
is it worth the the residual ofit?
You know I say no, I gottamanage two relationships.
Oh, so much fucking effort,yeah, and and you know what, if
you know what, if it what, ifit's bad, now you gotta try to
get out.
Well, I mean, yeah, you know,trying to try to get out.
Or I always got to look over myshoulder that I could run out
(07:06):
to her in the street and she cansay I had your man.
Speaker 2 (07:10):
Right, not too much Stuck on your name.
Not too many brothers namedLeon Right.
Speaker 3 (07:15):
So I mean, when you, when you weigh the pros and cons
of it, you know it's just forme it's just not, it's just
never been worth it.
Yeah, ok, I see her, Iacknowledge her, she's fine.
She ain't the first fine womanthat I've ever seen in my life.
She won't be the last.
She doesn't need thatacknowledgement.
And the reason why I'mprefacing being quote unquote,
monogamous first time versus thesecond time, the first time I
(07:38):
may have actually entertained aconversation, and you know, but
the difference between me at 28and me at 35 is that growth, to
know there is more damage to bedone by entering that
conversation.
Yeah.
Or it's not worth it, it's notyeah, yeah, you start wearing it
, wearing the risk of it.
So you know, like I said,monogamy for me is a choice,
(07:59):
delva.
Speaker 4 (08:00):
Yes, sir, how long have you been married, brother
22,.
I mean 19 years, but we've beentogether 22.
Okay, I was about to say whyare you?
Speaker 2 (08:08):
confused 19 years.
That's a beautiful thing.
So question that I asked youwhen I called you was a very
personal question.
You know you want to share.
Do you remember what I asked IfI ever stepped out?
Yeah, yeah, You're comfortablewith answering that question.
Speaker 4 (08:21):
Absolutely All right, go for it.
I have emotionally cheated onmy wife once.
Speaker 2 (08:25):
Break that down for us.
Okay.
What do you mean by emotionally?
Speaker 4 (08:27):
cheated on.
To me it wasn't, but becauseshe saw it as that, so I
accepted it Because she wasn'tcomfortable with it.
There's a young lady that Iknow in Connecticut.
She was going through a toughtime in her marriage.
She reached out to me foradvice so we were talking every
night, mostly her marriage.
She reached out to me foradvice, so we were talking every
(08:49):
night mostly on um yahoomessenger.
Speaker 2 (08:50):
That's how old we are .
Damn, I didn't know that was athing.
I I listen, I ain't gonna lieto you, I don't, I don't even
know okay, yeah, it's still athing actually but why you did
like this with your fingers?
Because then she has to be on acomputer, a typewriter it was a
type I mean, we started on this, but you know it's we had oh
there was.
Speaker 4 (09:07):
There was a messenger , okay he took a lot of time
with a t9 uh keyboard, but oh mygod over the head, okay yeah,
um, yes, and then we gotcomfortable.
Yeah, the conversation startedto go into the night, but it's
always about her and her husband.
One night I was in bed and mywife woke me up.
(09:29):
I think it was like 3 am andshe said I'm sorry, your phone
keep going off.
I don't have a lock on my phone, we never have passwords and
all that.
She doesn't check my phone.
I don't check hers Right, butshe felt the need because it was
going and the first message shesent me was she called me Poppy
when is she?
From.
She was from Connecticut, shewas Haitian, but she was born
(09:51):
here.
Speaker 2 (09:52):
Yeah, that's what I meant.
Like so yeah.
Speaker 4 (09:54):
So she's not Latina, but Haitians will call you Poppy
too, uh, that's why she woke meup.
She was like what's, what'shappening?
Who's this?
I'm like, oh my god.
I'm like, all right, this iswhat it is so you explained to
her what it was right then andthere and I'm like you know what
it stops.
Now picked up the phone, calledher and I say it's my fault, I'm
not blaming you, but we can'tnever talk again because my wife
(10:16):
is not comfortable with it andI understand why I wouldn't be
comfortable either.
I'm like I hope you understandthat she was like.
I respect that.
I'm like my wife is listening.
You know you don't have to sayanything, but know that we can't
talk anymore.
That was the last time as faras physically stepping out.
Never I never had the need tofeel like I need something else
and then I always want.
(10:38):
I said to my wife, I to myselfas well I never want to put my
wife in a situation where shefeels like she has to be
uncomfortable, not even knowingwhat's going on.
Speaker 2 (10:48):
Yeah, never.
It's funny you mentioned thething about the phones, but
there is such freedom.
I got to say in my lastrelationship I was married for
10 years Now I've been married.
We're on our third year.
In both relationships I've beenthe example of monogamy.
Relationships have been theexample of monogamy even when I
had reasons to kind of feel that, as we mentioned about the, the
(11:09):
last podcast we talked about,is it ever the woman's fault?
I could have conjured up in myhead a million reasons exactly
why?
well, this was the, this is whyI was then.
There was the need or whateverit was, but I always felt like,
if I have to get to that point,I don't need to be in that
relationship.
So, going, going over to you,young man, what is your
philosophy on monogamy andfidelity?
Do you believe you can be in amonogamous relationship?
(11:31):
Is that the goal, or what areyour thoughts on it?
Speaker 1 (11:33):
Yeah, like I'm very biblical as far as the courting
of a relationship and how to doso.
In Ephesians it talks aboutlike how to make your wife holy
by washing her with the word andall that and instructing on how
to be a good wife and appearsbeautiful, but not externally.
But when it talks about a manand a woman, it obviously talks
about two becoming one in theflesh.
But, more importantly, in Kingswhich, referring to Solomon who
(11:56):
had 700 wives, was the richestman.
I mean he was like the grand ofall grand.
I don't remember the exactverse, but I think it was in
Second Kings where it says youngmen or young kings, do not
spend your strength on women.
The one who ruined kings, andit's a very intentional word
right there where he says women,not woman, and he's singular.
(12:17):
It's plural for a reason becauseI mean even dating it's like
those DMs get hit up Like youtalked about the DMs.
Dating it's like those dms gethit up like you talked about the
dms is what they use now, likethere's options, which gives me
the opinion of who to interactwith and who to take stuff from
and who to not tolerate, whichis a good thing, right, that I
don't have to settle and that Ican have options to court out.
And it's not like just becauseshe's beautiful now I'm
(12:39):
instantly going to be attractedto just her.
But even to that extent's likeI know, when I do get into that
serious relationship, that I amgoing to be a monogamous man.
But it's a lot of theprinciples that are already
being said before me, even withyou just said, as far as the
comfort of not needing to worryabout your phone, as far as what
he talked about not needing toeven emotionally cheating, right
(12:59):
, it's like doing to others asthey would do unto you.
It's like I wouldn't want mywoman talking to some dude.
And like crying about arelationship, because a shoulder
to cry on turns into a to rideon.
You know what?
A shoulder to cry on turns intoa to ride on, to ride on.
Speaker 2 (13:15):
I forgot how biblical you are keeping that shit clean
, but I appreciate it Trying myPR.
You know, Trained, but no inregards to oh and that's very
true, by the way, very, it'sextremely true.
I speak from experience.
Speaker 1 (13:26):
I will tell you but to what you said.
Also, as far as just like um,going and learning to keep your
eyes to yourself, your emotionsto yourself, because of maturity
.
I've been through it too, cause, like maturity comes from
wisdom, wisdom comes fromexperience.
I've been around long enough toknow what's right from what's
wrong.
And if I even open the door foropportunity, like it talks
(13:49):
about in Proverbs heavily onjust the ways of a seductive
woman and how honey would dripfrom her lips, basically saying
that their speech is better thanours.
But in listening to that you arean ox bringing yourself to the
slaughterhouse, knowing that atthe end of your life, when your
flesh and body are spent, youwill groan and say how my heart
hated discipline and I spurnedcorrection.
(14:10):
So like, if you only look forlust, you're never going to find
somebody worth loving.
Because love is a, it's asymbol, but the substance is
sacrifice right.
Everybody wants to love or beloving, but nobody's really
willing to sacrifice the lustpart of them to actually show
that they're loving, show thatthey're faithful, show that
they're in it for the long run.
(14:30):
So as far as, when that womandoes come and I choose willingly
that you are the one that I'mhappy to settle down with not
settle for, but settle down thenit's a matter of communication
boundaries and knowing whatwe're actually trying to achieve
here, because I'm not going tobe the secondary mom in my
relationship.
I'm not the goo-goo-ga-ga typeof this and that I'm very.
(14:54):
These are the roles.
Eve was made from the rib to bea helper.
It talks about this a lot in 1Timothy as well.
As far as a woman's role versusa man's and if a man is worthy
of submitting to what hisstandard should be, how he
should lead, how he should love,and because I'm going to be the
man that's following thoseprinciples and I've first
already submitted to Christ,it's like I would expect that
woman to follow in line andsubmit to the man.
Speaker 2 (15:15):
Would you say it's easy?
Actually, it's never easy.
Speaker 4 (15:19):
Easier.
Speaker 2 (15:20):
It's easier if you're principled in that way and
you're rooted in the Bible inthat sense, because I'm not
Right, so would you say?
You know, I'm a believer.
Obviously I'm surrounded bythree.
And Leon just frowned, lookedat me like nigga, what?
No, I mean I was raised aroundit, I mean it was all around me
and I've read the Bible.
You know that's not aconversation, but I will tell
(15:40):
you that I'm very spiritual butI'm not as rooted in the word as
you are, not nearly.
I don't know so many people whoare.
By the way, in terms of like,you know your passages well and
you can quote them, but not justto say some wild dumb shit, but
you actually use them in a waythat it has everything to do
with what we're talking aboutand it makes sense and it
applies, and it applies in reallife.
I think if most people use itthat way, it would be more, it
(16:00):
would be better received, asopposed to just quoting it just
like nonsensically.
Do you find that it's easierfor you to dismiss that
temptation?
Speaker 1 (16:07):
Absolutely, and I'll say why.
Because it became easier once Istopped believing in God but
started to know God, likethere's a difference between
reading the Bible and learningthe Bible, because I treat it
like a study guide underlineeverything, circle it.
I mean every day at four in themorning I'm posting a passage
out of it.
(16:28):
Every day I'm texting 10 of myfriends and my accountability
group my verse of the day andthe interpretation.
Every single day, or even today, like at seven o'clock, we'll
have a righteous reset and it'sprobably 75 men from ages 25 to
50.
And that's a group that I leadat 22 to where people come to me
to get biblical guidance on howto righteously reset themselves
(16:48):
.
Because with me and my past,especially in Cashville, nash
Vegas, whatever you want to callit I was a player, serial
player.
I'm talking about Australiancattle dog.
I'm talking about I'm the lightskin on tender gold 500 matches
in two weeks and it's over.
It's like sushi date.
All right, we're going to playJenga, all right.
(17:08):
Loser got a back massage, allright, same thing.
Yeah, lost myself to lust, thebiggest demon.
Lost my community but felt likeI was gaining financial freedom
.
So at the time, externally Iwas winning, but inside I was
losing, and to have theawareness, to internalize.
That was everything.
Because then, when I start toknow God, it's like that moral
(17:31):
compass and the conviction iswhat pops out, because what I
would call my spiritual giftingis discernment and the ability
to take what's big and scary andmake it very simple and warming
To where, even if you'reungodly, you feel guilt.
All these things that we havewhen we don't even know God.
When you know God, it onlyheightens itself.
So, like with my past self, itwasn't that I made a decision,
(17:54):
it's that I felt disgust.
Speaker 2 (17:56):
I'm not going to ask you how you would answer to that
, but those guys have lived muchlonger.
They've been in longrelationships.
How have you maintained this?
You know this fidelity to yourmarriage, to your woman, even
when you could have gotteneasily, could have gotten away
with it.
You, as a traveling musician,you're gone a lot Weeks at a
time, so there's no like, oh,they'll know me, you're all the
(18:16):
way in freaking Madagascar andyou know, on the East coast of
Africa doing a concert Ifsomeone meets you.
I've always asked men thisquestion.
I said you know, if you couldjust go ahead and be with
someone never even know theperson's name, they don't have
any way to contact you, theydon't even know your name, they
just see you on stage.
You like you, whatever hour,whatever setting, would you do
it knowing that there is no waythis ever follows you anywhere?
Speaker 4 (18:39):
obviously I wouldn't, because I have not right.
And then those situationspresent themselves all the time.
It goes back to the work.
I don't want men to take thisand run with it and make excuses
.
Oh well, that's the way we'rewired.
But you have to do the work foryourself.
I'm going to tell you one way Ikeep myself out of trouble is
to never I think you said thattoo don't put yourself in a
position where you know youcan't get out.
(18:59):
That that's one.
That's why I don't go out and Icut some friends out Because,
like you say, you are theaverage of your friends, right?
Speaker 2 (19:07):
That's right.
Speaker 4 (19:07):
So if you know your friends in a certain way, cut
that.
Speaker 2 (19:10):
And that's the majority of all these musicians
anyway.
Speaker 4 (19:13):
Absolutely and.
Speaker 2 (19:13):
I hate to just put them all in a box, but that's
shit, I've lived it.
Speaker 4 (19:20):
That's why I mean if they a lot of guys you see I'm
playing with that will never beto my house, we'll never go out
for drinks, we'll never goanywhere.
But I'm going to tell you onething If you don't do the work,
there is no way you could befaithful because of the way we
are as men.
There's an estimated 8 to 11million of animal species out
there just on land and ocean.
Only 11 of them 1, 2, five,eleven they actually have life
(19:50):
partners.
Even then they step out if thethe female can't give birth or
the male, uh, have a lower genethat the female wants.
So there's really none of them.
That's really monogamous.
So, which means that's just theway we're wired.
But if you do the work, if yourespect your principle, you set
some principle and stick to them, you could do it, and then it
becomes easier.
Beautiful women's all going tobe around, right?
Speaker 1 (20:11):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (20:11):
I mean, wherever you go, there's this club that I
play.
I'm playing in tonight.
There's three bartenders,beautiful people, it's funny.
Not recently one came to me.
He said why are you so mean?
He said like you've been cominghere for about two years.
Speaker 1 (20:31):
You never asked me for my name if I need a drink, I
come to the bar and order adrink.
I don't need to know your nameand it's so environmental.
I always give people thisquestion because it makes them
like, sit down on the on the way, we're hardwired.
And I ask it to a girl actuallywho says, well, no, I got guy
friends, but they're just First.
I'll make them call that guyfriend and say, hey, I'm feeling
for you.
Would you want to see me too?
And they fold.
But even away from that, evenjust like off the principle, I
(20:52):
go okay, a Lamborghini, we'llcall it a Rolls Royce.
If you lock that car, you wouldtrust that it locks.
Absolutely Everybody wouldtrust that you click the.
It's a nice $300,000 car, it'sgonna lock.
Would you park it in the hood?
I don't know, probably not.
But you trust the locks ExactlyBecause the environment is
dangerous.
Yes, I trust my girl, I trustmyself, but I know the
(21:15):
environment is dangerous.
So why would I put my nice mostvaluable asset, most valuable
asset, my time that I've spentbuilding with this person, the
energy I've connected over thefoundation and the plan that
we're trying to accomplish whywould I go, take it into the
hood for one night, even thoughI still trust the locks.
Speaker 2 (21:29):
That is good, that is very good.
Are we then saying, based onthat analogy you just made there
, that environment obviouslyplays a big factor, but could we
not transcend beyond thosetemptations?
Regardless of environment, youcould.
Speaker 1 (21:44):
but it's more tempting.
Why would you open the door tothe devil when you see that he's
knocking and you can lookthrough the peephole?
Absolutely.
Speaker 3 (21:51):
Let's see so 18 years .
Have there not been situationsthat have presented themselves,
or have at least been temptingAbsolutely?
Speaker 2 (22:00):
Oh well how tall are you?
6'2", 6'3", because that seemsto be under your body Almost
6'4".
Yeah, that's everybody's list,right?
What are you 6'1"?
Justin, I'm 6'0" 6'0", 6'3" Igot some boots on.
Speaker 4 (22:13):
Hey, I'm 5'7".
It's available to me.
Speaker 2 (22:26):
You know what I'm saying?
Same bro.
So so you know.
Um, yeah, you meet one of those.
You know, I didn't mean tointerrupt, but you definitely.
You walk in the room, you meetone of those criteria that the
first thing these women say askthem to describe the list.
So they do, they want first andthey say some shallow shit,
like well, you gotta be over sixfeet tall.
You know, I'm like, yeah,that's what you're about to get
hurt because you said nothing ofsubstance.
That should be like yeah, that'swhat you're about to get hurt
Because you said nothing ofsubstance.
That should be on the list ifthat's what you like, but it
can't be not.
It can't be the first thing onthe list.
(22:47):
But go ahead, brother, I'msorry.
Speaker 3 (22:48):
No.
So I'm just saying you knowthere are, you know I'm not
Superman and that was the thingthat came out of the first
divorce is to realize thatvulnerability, that you're not
Superman, that you do fail, thatyou do have frailties, that you
do.
And that was the hardest partfor me in that first divorce was
(23:10):
admitting that failure,admitting that I was not the
person that in my mind I thoughtI was.
And that was tough because youhave to confront you and the
image of who you thought youwere and you realize that you
are not.
But where I was going with thatin the 18 years is that?
So you met me at year two.
(23:30):
Have there been times over that16 year period that there have
been vulnerabilities?
Of course, and probably for her, but I never want to know it, I
would never ask her, but whathas sustained it is God and his
grace.
When those situations occur orhave occurred, something happens
to make them not go forward orfurther than what?
Speaker 2 (23:51):
they Just an initial thought.
Speaker 3 (23:53):
Right, that initial quick you know, fleeting thought
, or even a conversation.
Right, you might be inconversation with somebody and
it turns left and you're like,oh you got to remove yourself.
Speaker 4 (24:01):
Yeah, you're like oh, you got to remove yourself.
Speaker 3 (24:02):
Yeah, you're like.
Oh, you know, it just startsout as a friendly deal and then
it becomes something that isgoing to go left.
Speaker 2 (24:11):
So you know, it's interesting.
When I was much younger, Ireally had almost nothing to
pull from.
There were no mentors, therewere no dudes around me.
All the guys that I hung outwith were older than me were no
mentors.
There were no dudes around me.
All the guys that I hung outwere older than me and they
would end up looking up to mebecause I had no one to look up
to.
You know, I would.
I would be friends with guyswho were 10 years older than I
was and they were all doing dumbshit, including not just doing,
(24:36):
but bragging about the factthat they had many women and
things like that.
So that's what I saw.
I kind of thought that's justthe way it was how it was
supposed to be.
And I had a conversation withone guy one time a long, long
time ago.
This dude was just roughlyabout my age and he made he kind
of alluded to what you talkedabout, justin, is how to do unto
others as you would have themdo unto you.
(24:58):
The conversation from anotherwoman came up and he basically
said why would I ever need to dothat?
And they weren't married, theywere just dating.
But his whole mindset was ifshe would ever do that to me.
And I found out yeah is, and Ithink he goes.
I think about that.
I think about that pain anddiscomfort and I'm not willing
(25:18):
to do that to someone else.
Speaker 3 (25:19):
That's that same you know, that's that's been, that's
been a stopping factor for meas well.
Speaker 4 (25:25):
Yeah, that is somebody who's done the work.
Speaker 3 (25:28):
Yeah, and other times we're talking about like a very
young person.
Speaker 2 (25:31):
at that point he might have been 20, 21.
You know what I mean and thisis.
You know I was around that agethen.
Yeah, just kind of like Justinhere.
But you know that wasn't myenvironment.
That was the exception, right.
So in my first marriage, thatmarriage was damned from the
beginning.
You know, it was a lot ofturmoil, a lot of fights and
(25:52):
again, like I said, she is not abad person per se.
You know it was just.
We weren't meant to be together.
You know, we kind of fought.
I got to tell you like in amonth, in 30 days, we might have
two good days in those 30 days.
We're talking hell.
And you knew me then I wasmiserable, right.
It was just really, really bad.
(26:14):
Again, no shade on her, it'sjust what it was.
When the opportunity presenteditself, I took advantage of it
and I never felt good about it.
It was something that I thoughtmade sense.
It was almost somethingrebellious in the sense to where
I was disrespectful, to where Ididn't even need to hide it.
I remember feeling like I hadlost myself, like there was a
(26:36):
sense of hopelessness.
There was a sense of just, Idon't know who I am.
What do you say to someone orhow do you help guide a man who
is struggling with that and thatis not rooted in the church?
I guess I'm good.
Speaker 1 (26:51):
I actually like he speaks on doing the work, like
last year when I talked to thatcoach and he said he couldn't
coach me.
I was like because you saidthat I need just one session and
he was like no.
I was like yes, and then I thatI need just one session and he
was like no.
I was like yes, and then Ipitched my price at him.
He accepted it.
He was like you know what Fineit's February 1st, it'll be
Black History Month.
I got you.
It's like I love it.
(27:11):
Now, the only thing that heactually told me from the first
call he was interested in divingdeeper as far as my perspective
was my outlook on women and myrelationship dynamic and how I
view that and what I'm lookingfor right now.
All that good stuff.
So in my conversation with him,there was one thing that I took
out of it which was fantastic,and the second thing is what
(27:34):
somebody could do in thatsituation you just talked about.
The first thing that he helpedme realize which a lot of
high-performing men willencounter.
The first thing that he helpedme realize which a lot of
high-performing men willencounter is a leakage in the
way that they compartmentalizethemselves so, like as an
ambitious man, I'm ambitious allaround.
Spiritually, I want to getbetter.
Physically I want to get better.
Financially, mentally,relationally, I always want to
(27:56):
get better.
What that means is I pushmyself to a point of exhaustion.
I see what the bar looks like,but the next time I go at it,
what do I want?
More, more, more, and I woulddo that all around, but it would
leak over with my relationships, meaning I would talk to a girl
Okay, she's funny, she's pretty, she's not that smart.
(28:16):
Okay, next date she's funny,she's pretty, she got to be
smart.
Okay, she's smart, she has abad family relationship.
Well, that's my new bar Nextdate, funny, pretty, smart, good
family, bunch of exes or abunch of.
And it would keep on stackingto where I was trying to like,
almost craft this perfect girlwhen it's not about it's not
(28:39):
perfection, it's progression.
So it's finding a girl that iscompatible to the things that I
don't want, but she's willing towork on the things that I want
out of sacrifice and developingherself.
So when he gave me thatawareness of where I was falling
short as a man just byconversating with him this is
not a licensed therapist, thisis a guy that played for the
(29:00):
Kansas City Chiefs, had hiscareer cut short and now he's in
Miami doing coaching, and hewas a guy that told me he
couldn't coach me but gave methe best coaching I've ever
received, cause that awarenessis what's going to help me
actually build a foundation withthe right woman and bring fruit
out of it.
But now the second thing thathe told me on that call cause
he's very like, deeply connectedspiritually not biblical at all
(29:21):
.
But then the guy had me walkthrough the desire to where it
could either lead you todarkness or light.
If it leads you to light,that's going to be something
scary.
If it leads you to dark, goodjob.
You had the death of the egoMeaning if you said, okay, what
if I did holler at that girl?
Or if you said what if I did goto that bartender.
(29:42):
Well, now take it farther,because that's just the surface.
Okay, you're forging Steve.
Okay, she says something.
Okay, you get her name.
Okay, you get her.
Now go deeper.
Okay, she sends you a text whenyou're leaving.
Okay, she says there's a hotelright here.
Okay, you meet her at the hotelright Now.
(30:07):
You get the room and she'sright there behind you, the
security cameras.
Now you're on camera with herand then you go up to the room
and go deeper.
Okay, now you start talking toher.
You're seducing her a littlebit.
You guys order some drinks up.
Okay, now she starts.
Get go deeper.
Shirt comes off, her clothes,come off.
Now.
Y'all on the bed.
Now y'all are tussling it.
Now go deeper.
Then you wake up the nextmorning, lose yourself.
Would you be happy if your lifewas on film and it just
captured that moment?
Damn, that's a good one,because you got to sit there and
that's either the death of theego or it's going to light up a
(30:29):
new you, because you're going tobe like ooh.
Speaker 2 (30:33):
I would say you know this is going to sound crass,
but I have to say it that wayyou're with someone you don't
want to be with physically.
You said go deeper and godeeper.
And you talk about the next day, the next morning, the second
sex is over.
You realize what you've done.
Immediately, you immediatelydon't want to be there.
You're immediately talkingabout get off me.
(30:54):
I miss my wife.
Speaker 1 (30:56):
But now, what if you did, though?
What if?
What if you?
What if you got done right?
And this is the light side ofit.
Now, what if you enjoyed it?
What if you want to stay forsome little cuddles afterwards
and you wanted to go getbreakfast in the morning and you
wanted to stay in?
Because now you're seeing thelight that got brought to your
darkness, because, gabe, he'sthe guy that leads our Bible
study.
He said this so good in ourcall last Sunday.
He said secrecy is the oxygenfor addiction, secrecy.
(31:22):
So you have all these desiresthat you stuff in your closet,
which die off like skeletons,but in reality they just come to
life when every other lightgoes off and nobody's looking.
Because I always say this yourtestimony comes from your test.
When you're lonely, that's whenyou get tempted.
That's when you get tempted.
That's when we get tempted whenwe're lonely, because that's
(31:45):
when we're starting to see allthese other things and we're not
seeing it for what it is.
Speaker 2 (31:47):
Because now, we have nobody holding us accountable.
Now we're actually tested.
A lot of men who cheat man.
They're not even lonely, bro, Imean they can be, and not if
they're cheating.
Speaker 1 (31:53):
They're just alone.
Speaker 2 (31:53):
Someone's there yeah, yeah, in a sense right.
I mean we're talking aboutpeople who have, at least on the
surface.
I mean, you know, you don'tknow what's going on inside
someone's home, but we'retalking about someone who has
what seems to be a good marriage.
There's a great person at home.
You know the fact that she's awonderful woman.
You can see that right.
Let's say, I know the coupleright.
You can see this person iswonderful in every way.
The person's a good mother, agood provider for the family.
(32:25):
Take care it presents itself.
They take advantage of it,totally detached from the
reality of it and in their mindlong gone, goodbye.
It doesn't matter.
It happened, it's in the past.
It doesn't have any residualeffect and I argue that it does
right.
It does have a residual impacton you.
That energy that is exchangedis one thing.
What you're bringing home toyour wife is another, Because
(32:48):
you know you're having sex withthis person A lot of times it's
going to be unprotected.
Even if it is protected sex,you're still taking a chance.
There's none of that.
Shit is 100%.
So you have all these differentthings.
I guess what I'm getting at isyou have these guys who are just
like the excuse is the gaugethat governs them, the.
I can't help it, I'm a guy.
It's just what guys do, youknow, like?
(33:10):
What do you say to that Like?
Speaker 3 (33:12):
I'm sorry.
I think it goes back to whatJustin said in a previous
podcast where, you know, men arenaturally divided into hunters
and gatherers.
Our instinct is to hunt and sofor a lot of guys it's just the
thrill of the chase and youcatch and you release.
Sometimes the hunter getscaptured by the game and you
can't release.
You have to be cognizant as aman in order to stay monogamous
(33:35):
of that hunter instinct, becauseit never goes away.
Is it ever enough?
When is it enough?
Speaker 2 (33:42):
I have.
I mean, I never get into thesedebates with these women because
I don't know them personally.
You know, these are people thatI'll see on social media, but
they are.
There's this belief that menoverall cannot be faithful.
They are cheaters and they justit's just what it is.
You just have to deal with it.
You know, oftentimes I want tokind of scream out and be like
what are you guys doing?
(34:02):
You're taking a subset of agroup right, a tiny, tiny sliver
of it, because this is what youare attracting.
You know, cat Williams said itbest one time you have to figure
out what it is about you thatattract these no good ass men.
And they keep attracting thesame men.
They don't realize it's thesame man, different face, but
(34:23):
it's the same man you just keepbringing towards you.
There's a reason that women whoare in abusive relationships
tend to end up in anotherabusive relationship.
You come out of one, you end upinto another, and another and
another, until you fix somethingabout yourself so you no longer
attract that.
(34:46):
So if you attract a man thatcannot be faithful to you,
that's just something thatyou're doing, again, not your
fault, but you're attractingthat type of person into your
environment and then you go andgeneralize and say all men are
cheaters, no man can be faithfuland etc.
Etc.
So I want to push back and andand can you guys talk about that
and about, like, the dudes thatyou know and the men in your
circle and things like that, andthe people who've had
successful marriage, thosesuccessful relationships?
You know how?
You know how are they doing?
(35:06):
Because they're not theexception.
That is the rule.
Speaker 1 (35:08):
I believe the cheaters are the exception,
that's that's super wrong,though, as far as them saying
men are cheaters, because thedifference, in my opinion, from
a boy to a man, because there'sno true indicator of when a boy
becomes a man, at least like inthis lifetime, there's just no,
and you can't say 21, or I haveone what?
Speaker 2 (35:25):
so?
This is something that jimrohan said.
Um, the transition to adulthoodis when you accept and you take
full responsibility for yourlife.
Yeah, once you do that, thenyou become an adult.
Speaker 1 (35:37):
It's not an age that makes you an adult what makes
you a man, and what I'm gonnasay from listening to all this
and just like analyzingcharacter here, is like, what
makes you a man is when it'sbigger than you.
That's what makes you a man,because a boy it's not bigger
than him, it's just him and hislust and his desires and his
goals and his but.
A man is looking for the future, he's looking for the family,
(35:57):
he's looking for faith.
He's looking for faith.
He's looking for all thesethings that are much bigger than
just the self.
Speaker 2 (36:04):
So it's like anything else, right, it's like healing,
it's like success.
None of these things are adestination.
They are a journey, journey, somonogamy itself.
Speaker 3 (36:12):
Based on what your guys are saying, this is
something you continuallypractice on a daily basis, and
you make decisions that alignwith that, so that you're not
ever in a situation where andit's hard bro- that's what she
said.
Speaker 4 (36:25):
It's hard.
Yeah, I've never been analcoholic, but you got to treat
it like a recovering alcoholic.
Yes, because the thing is younever recovered.
Once you get comfortable, youget that next drink.
You undo 20 years of sobriety,correct.
And I have a question for youguys on the panel, because we
use that a lot as men, do youthink sex is a need Shit?
(36:47):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (36:47):
Yeah, well, I do, and the reason why, in his wisdom
he probably has this probably atrick-ass question.
So be careful.
Speaker 3 (36:54):
No, no, no, it's just but it's not a trick question.
You answer and I'll answer yeah, I, I think it is a need,
because it is an instinct thatyou don't suppress, right?
So that tells me it's a need,right?
So even priests who vowcelibacy sometimes break it and
(37:18):
can't suppress it, right, theymight try to mask it by messing
with a little boy, but you stillhad sex, god damn, you weren't
there.
Well, what I'm saying?
So this is why I went there,steph, you know me, I'm going to
keep it 100.
Yeah, they mask it because itis a boy or a male, that they
(37:46):
don't consider it the same asbreaking their vow to God
because it wasn't with a woman.
Speaker 2 (37:51):
So you know, that's why I think sometimes religion
is so obtuse, because you'retricking God, you're tricking
yourself, you're tricking God.
Speaker 3 (37:58):
It's not your mindset , you're tricking yourself.
You're 100% tricking God nothat's what I'm saying You're
thinking you're tricking god.
So am I lying?
Am I lying?
Speaker 1 (38:04):
that's out of human concern where he was rooted.
Yeah, yeah they.
Speaker 3 (38:08):
They will say that that they did, that they have
sinned, but they didn't breaktheir vow because it was not
what they wanted.
Yeah, great job, right on thetechnicality.
Speaker 2 (38:18):
So so, to answer your question, it is a basic
instinct, I think if you'reapproaching it from a deeper
context, what is it really for?
You can say it's to procreate,but I would have to disagree
with that too.
I don't think it's just forthat sole purpose.
Speaker 4 (38:36):
No, no, I'm asking Okay, you're not saying it is.
Speaker 2 (38:38):
I'm not saying it is, so for me it's a way that we
connect in the most intimate waywith another human being that
we deeply, deeply care about,that we love.
Now we waste a lot of ourspiritual energy with the people
we don't care about when wejust go and sleep around and
mess with other people, butthere's a reason, it doesn't
(38:58):
feel bad, right, if it was justlike hey, this is a chore, you
are to have children, this iswhen you do it, this is how it's
done, et cetera, et cetera.
But our society and previoussocieties have been collapsing
from day one because of sex.
So for men, we are governed byit.
I think that I don't thinkthere's no bones about it, man,
(39:20):
I think that it is an absoluteneed for us, it's a need and
it's a basic instinct.
Biologically, I think it's aneed for us.
Yeah, and sperm counts is outof control.
Speaker 4 (39:30):
So I think that I'm sorry.
I'm going to let you answer aswell.
Sorry, before I.
Speaker 1 (39:34):
I think it's a need, but the timing and the frequency
is a want.
Speaker 4 (39:37):
I think that's where I'm at.
Yeah, I think that's where I'mat If we think of it as a need
although it is and then that'swhy a lot of guys say, well, we
have need, you're not giving itto me, I'm going to get
somewhere else.
If it's just a want, all of asudden it's not that important
anymore, and I think that's partof doing the work on yourself.
Speaker 3 (40:00):
So, I mean as early as 10, 11, 12, 13, young men get
erections.
Oh for sure, right, they also.
I mean hell.
Even as an adult, you may havean erotic or wet dream where you
ain't even having intercourse.
But because you're thinkingabout it, right, because you're
thinking about it, it is anatural instinct and release
Right In your sleep.
(40:21):
A natural instinct and releaseright in in your sleep.
So that's why I say I go.
It goes back to me as afundamental need, because it's
it's, it's an urge and it's aninstinct that, even when you try
to suppress it or when youhaven't quote unquote brought it
into your mind as an existence,it still comes and it still
happens as a natural release.
Yeah, you don't have to eventhink about it, I'm not.
Speaker 4 (40:40):
I'm not disagreeing at all.
It's about you it correct.
It pops up in your mind thereare things I don't disagree, you
know it's.
The thing I just wanted topoint out is something we could
work on there to kind of helpyou out.
Speaker 2 (40:53):
It's growing through the discomfort to say how often
is this gonna happen?
I know couples right now whoschedule it and at first I used
to laugh at them.
I used to be like they go,you're doing, what are you?
You schedule sex for friday,right and?
And you know schedule forfridays and and mondays, or
fridays and wednesdays, or justonce a week or whatever it is.
(41:14):
Initially my reaction wasthat's funny, so I wish I might
go ahead and schedule some shitlike that.
Speaker 3 (41:20):
It's, but it changes that you can speak to this too.
It changes and evolves as theyget older.
Speaker 2 (41:26):
Well, it's not.
So that's not what I was going.
Speaker 3 (41:28):
I was just things of that nature.
It changes yeah.
Speaker 2 (41:30):
Well, I was going to the fact that what I appreciate
about those couples and whatthey're doing is life gets in
the way and next thing, you know, intimacy starts to suffer and
now there's resentment and theconversations have been had.
So A you have the conversation.
Second, if you schedule it, ifnothing else, it gives the
person, let's say in this casethe woman we're going to go with
(41:52):
a typical example of the womanhaving a lower sex drive
no-transcript you that thing tolook forward to for.
So it's not for every couple.
I personally would prefer, youknow, just to be spontaneous and
not be like it's seven o'clockfriday where are you?
(42:16):
you know, but you know so, so,but, but I I realize that it
works for for the couples andlistening to you know um other
people speak about it.
There's podcasts that talkabout marriage and successful
marriages, where that's actuallya common thing, more than you
would believe it is, and thesepeople are having amazing
relationships.
I believe, it Amazingrelationships, amazing sex,
(42:36):
amazing everything.
Speaker 1 (42:38):
When sex becomes scheduled, it becomes a chore.
You take away the butterflies,you take away the nerves, you
take away all the naturalemotions that come with the
spontaneous action.
Imagine if God told you whenyou were going to die and he
told you when you were going toget blessed.
It takes away the fun becausethe joy is in the journey.
The joy comes from thosesporadic moments where you
(42:59):
didn't plan it but you got it.
And not just sex, everythingright.
I think if you try to make itsomething so systematic, you
lose the fun of the process.
Speaker 2 (43:09):
So what usually happens in the beginning of the
relationship, where things areexciting, sex is happening all
the time, everything is loving,lustful at the same time, and
it's great.
And then, sometime into therelationship, when things settle
, the man is still like whathappened?
To all the sex?
What happened to all this stuffand it and things you know
settled?
(43:29):
in the woman was like damn, Iwas hoping you wouldn't be as
horny all these years exactlythat's why I married a man who's
older, because I was hoping,you know, you'd be done with
this shit, right, you know?
But yeah, it's.
It's interesting what do yousay to your, to young men who
are in relationships, to kind ofguide them towards this path
that you guys have been onforever and the path that you're
(43:51):
currently on, justin, somethingpractical that you can impart
on those guys?
Speaker 3 (43:55):
What I tell young men is that one when you're young,
you make a lot of decisions offof instinct and you marry for
the wrong reasons a lot of times.
As Justin said lust or looksinstead of love.
If you're going to get in arelationship, if you're going to
get married young, you have tofigure out what your deal
(44:17):
breakers are.
That will allow you to not makecertain mistakes.
And do your deal breakerschange?
Yeah, as you get older, end upin situations where you've
learned from lessons.
Then that bar will always movebecause you will always grow and
change.
Muhammad Ali is my favoriteathlete, one of my favorite
individuals in the world, and hehas a saying that he said if
(44:40):
you're the same person at 50that you were at 20, then you
wasted 30 years of your life.
So that means you have theability and you will evolve.
So those things will change.
Your goals will change.
The person you are shouldchange 100%.
Speaker 2 (44:57):
Good insight, brother .
Final question for you guyswhat's the final words on women
who have, who throw us all intothis one big old mixing bowl and
say, yeah, just you know, stickyour hand in there, yank one
out, it's gonna be a cheater.
More than likely it's gonna bea cheater.
All right, what is it you know?
What is it that you're?
(45:17):
My advice to them is this andI'll compare it.
Speaker 3 (45:20):
I'll compare it to race.
Right?
We, as black people or whitepeople or whatever nationality
there are, will say that thereare bad people in every race,
right?
Or you know, I can speak frommy perspective in a black race.
I don't like white peoplebecause white people didn't do
this, but there have been someof the best thing that have
(45:40):
happened in my life through thehelp or prism of a white person,
right?
So where I'm going with that isis that when you throw everybody
into a box, you usually throwaway a lot of good people.
Treat people individually.
Treat the men that youencounter individually.
Don't throw them all in theboxes, all as cheaters, as all,
as this, as all of that, becausethat's the same as saying all
(46:02):
white people are this, all blackpeople are that, which is what,
which we're in the situationwe're in now.
You know, racially in thiscountry or politically in this
country, you know where you geton.
You get on an elevator, likeyou said in your other podcast,
and because you got the stigmaas a black man some ladies
clutching a person you gotprobably more money in your
pocket than she got in her purseor in the bank.
That's what I would would sayto that would be.
(46:25):
My advice is that you takeevery man you encounter
individually.
You don't encounter them all orput in your mind that they're
all cheaters.
But when they show you thosesigns that they are who you
thought they were, then that'swhen you separate makes sense
well, my advice to them is tolook up the common denominator.
Speaker 4 (46:43):
oh, you saying it's them could be?
Could be because I think wespoke about that earlier.
Yeah, because you attract samepeople all the time.
Especially if you don't changeyour environment, mm, or you
don't do the work on yourself.
You don't know your triggers,you don't know anything.
You just you're the same person, so you're going to keep
attracting the same dude, justin a different shell let's say
that's all I got.
Look at the common denominatorgood one.
Speaker 2 (47:05):
You got anything for us, jay?
Speaker 1 (47:15):
I got two things to the or for the women that are,
um, obviously generalizingeverybody.
Typically, you are what youattract, so there should be a
lot of self-reflection.
If that's the case and you'reonly attracting bad people,
chances are you're probably abad person or you like bad
things.
To the men.
My advice is invest in cat anddog food, cause there's going to
be a lot of lonely women thatalways think that way.
What?
Speaker 2 (47:33):
What I miss.
Is it because I'm tired?
Oh yeah, he must be investingcat?
Speaker 3 (47:36):
No, he didn't say he wasn't.
He thought he was doing a JDVans thing.
That's not what he's doing.
Speaker 1 (47:41):
Invest in cat and dog food, because a lot of these
women that think that way Aregoing to be single For the rest
of their life.
Speaker 2 (47:48):
And have a lot of cats and a lot of dogs.
My friend To the women.
Speaker 1 (47:51):
The stock is going to be up there.
Yeah, and that's my advice Tothe men Invest in cat and dog
food.
Speaker 3 (47:55):
Yeah, let the women Keep thinking that way, so you
can make Some money off of theirloans?
Speaker 1 (47:59):
Yeah, thank you.
There's Profit, isn't?
Speaker 2 (48:03):
the problem, baby, they're going to be alone for a
very, very long time.
Speaker 4 (48:06):
Buy a cat, die alone.
Speaker 2 (48:07):
Yep, Buy a cat die alone, and I'm a prophet.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (48:11):
You're probably my prophet.
Yeah, all right.
Speaker 2 (48:15):
Hey guys, I want to thank you for being here.
You know, leon Delva, justin,this was really really
insightful.
When I look at social media, Isee that some type of gender war
has started and really what itends up doing is it ends up just
destroying families.
It ends up destroying ourrelationships with each other,
and we're not at war.
(48:35):
I don't know what the agenda is, I don't know who's behind it,
I don't know why they're doingit that way, but everything's
politicized.
So one of the things that I sawthat they were using as rocket
fuel was men are cheaters andthere are so many memes and all
it takes is one jaded person togo ahead and take that that has
a platform and just to propagatethat stuff.
(48:58):
A lot of the men I know are notlike that.
They're in happy and solidrelationships.
I wanted to just not only havethe two of you guys who can talk
to your very longstandingrelationship that is a
monogamous one myself and veryhappy with it and just being in
that space, justin, whoseprinciple is rock solid and your
(49:18):
integrity is rock solid.
So those men do exist.
They're out there.
They're not rare.
As you said, delva, it's lookingfor the common denominator,
look for what it is about youthat is making you attract the
person who cannot be faithful,the person who seems to, or puts
you in a position to bedisrespected or, in a lot of
(49:40):
ways, threatens your lifebecause they put you in
situations where you don't evenknow who's out there hating you.
So there's something about thatman.
There's something that you'redoing also that is attracting
that type of person.
So focus on if you go back tothe last podcast focus on doing
the work on yourself, createyour list, set your standards
and work on those things.
We'll catch you next time.
(50:01):
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