How Parenting Continues To Evolve: Then vs Now

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The age-old question of how to raise our children echoes through every generation, but the answers seem to shift with each passing decade. In this deeply reflective conversation, we bring together a fascinating mix of perspectives – a 45-year-old military veteran father, a 27-year-old dad navigating early parenthood, and a young mother of twins alongside her own father.

Through their candid exchanges, we explore one of parenting's most fundamental tensions: how do we balance preparing our children for a harsh world while giving them the love and tenderness they need? The military dad puts it starkly: "I see it as I'm preparing him for the world. The world's a rough place... He's got to learn to fight lions, tigers and bears and slay dragons." Meanwhile, his co-parent sees this approach as unnecessarily hard on their son – a disagreement many parents will recognize.

We dive into the evolution of discipline across generations, from the "because I said so" era to today's more communicative approaches. Should children be allowed to question or correct their parents? Does fear have a place in healthy parent-child relationships? And perhaps most provocatively – do we, should we, treat our sons and daughters differently when it comes to independence, protection, and expectations?

The conversation takes a particularly raw turn when discussing co-parenting challenges after separation. One young father's frustration is palpable as he describes trying to parent alongside someone who seems determined to disagree with every decision. The advice shared – about remaining neutral, documenting everything in writing, and refusing to provide the emotional reactions an ex-partner might be seeking – represents hard-won wisdom.

Whether you're a seasoned parent, new to the journey, or contemplating parenthood, this episode offers both practical insights and emotional resonance. Because while parenting styles may evolve, the fundamental challenge remains the same: raising human beings who are both loved and prepared for the world that awaits them.

After the episode, stay tuned for a heartfelt message from Nailah to her girls. 

🎂HAPPY BIRTHDAY CLEO & CALI 💕

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
I see it as I'm preparing him for the world.
I do need to be loving andtender and things like that with
him, but at the same timepreparing him for the future
that he's going into.
The world's a rough place.
I was in the military for 17years, so I know preparing my
son for those things and at thesame time, navigating the family
dynamic as far as his motherand things like that goes.
She's sheltered from the worldbecause I've sheltered her from

(00:22):
it.
But my son, I'm not shelteringhim from it.
He's got to go out there.
He's got to learn to fightlions, tigers and bears and slay
dragons and that process.
She doesn't feel like it shouldbe that hard for him, but it is
going to be that hard for him.

Speaker 2 (00:34):
But it sounds to me from our conversations even
prior to this that you balanceit.
This particular episode was somuch fun and very
self-reflective.
I, as a parent, have made somany mistakes.
In this conversation, I amjoined by Jermon Elder, a
45-year-old father of two boys,nick Pierre, a 27-year-old

(00:58):
father of a toddler, and my owndaughter, nayila, who is 27 and
has twin girls of her own.
What is your parenting style?
What are the nuances betweenthen and today?
How were you raised versus howyou raise your own kids?
Do we treat girls and boysdifferently?

(01:18):
Should we give them choices orguide their every move?
Parenting, to me, is about thehardest challenge on earth,
because the stakes are so high.
Well, that's the discussionwe're having today.
Welcome to Manhood Matters.

(01:46):
Let's get to it.
So let's start with theintroduction.
I am your host, stefan.
I'm back and for the first timein the studio, I have three new
co-hosts Nick, introduceyourself, brother.
Tell us who you are.
What's going on with you?

Speaker 4 (02:00):
What's up everybody.
My name's Nick Pierre, 27 yearsold, father of one.
Well, you sound like a hundred,though.
Yeah, Sounded like this sincemiddle school.
You say I sound like BarryWhite, right?

Speaker 1 (02:11):
You got that, barry.

Speaker 4 (02:11):
White that's how I heard it from him, because all
the old heads said I soundedlike him.

Speaker 2 (02:14):
He's like I don't know who Barry White is, yeah.

Speaker 4 (02:16):
So I had to look it up like who is that person?

Speaker 2 (02:19):
That's funny.
So how old is you, said yourfather, when you have a boy girl
.

Speaker 4 (02:23):
A boy.
How old is he?
He's three.
He about to be four in August.
Okay, cool, and we've got.

Speaker 1 (02:28):
My name is Jermon Elder.
Everyone just calls me G.
I'm a consultant with theinsurance industry and I have
two kids.
I have an older, 23-year-old hehas two children and then I
have a younger, five-year-old,and I'm trying trying to raise
them to be a good boy, you know.

Speaker 2 (02:43):
Dude, that's so insane.
The gap yes, when.

Speaker 1 (02:46):
I got divorced, I kind of went on a little rampage
.
But I'm very happy to have morekids, you know, because I've
always wanted more children.

Speaker 2 (02:52):
Yeah, so my situation is kind of like yours, with my
oldest being 27 and my youngestbeing nine, so I get to almost
do it again and I'm watchingmyself, like learning from past
experiences.
And speaking of my oldest being27,.
She's here with us today, myoldest, my baby girl.
What's going on, nai?

Speaker 5 (03:12):
Hi, I'm Naila Alexandre.
I am 27.
I have two little girls.
I am an insurance agent and I'ma part-time nanny.

Speaker 2 (03:20):
Nice, all right, so I guess we'll start with you.
G.
What do you see that'sdifferent between the old way
you used to parent and the newway that you parent?

Speaker 1 (03:45):
gone.
So now that I'm back home withmy youngest son, I kind of feel
like I'm learning for the firsttime to actually parent a
younger child, cause I dealtwith my son a lot when he got a,
got a little older.
I want to be.
I find myself being harder onmy younger son than I was on my
older son because I was alwaysgone.
So when I would come home, youknow I wanted to just play with
him and just be around him andthings like that.
So I probably wasn't, I didn'tdiscipline them as much as I

(04:05):
probably should have.

Speaker 2 (04:07):
That's interesting because you know older parents
again, like myself, I find thatit's the other way around.
You know where I was harder onthe older ones than I am on the
younger ones.
There's been times where babygirl will get away with certain
things or she'll do certainthings, and my style of

(04:27):
discipline is more of a let'sreason, let's talk through it,
whereas what did I used to doback then?

Speaker 5 (04:34):
Whoopins.
Now I can't even say that Ididn't get too many, but
definitely a lot more than shedoes.

Speaker 1 (04:39):
I say now I'm more quick to the whooping than I,
than I was.
I was more I did, I did morereasoning with my older son,
just because, like I said, I wasgone all the time.
So, when.
I come home.
I wasn't as quick to be thatway, Right.

Speaker 2 (04:50):
It's difficult, right , you're gone.
I mean, dude, you're.
First of all, it's not like youweren't around.
You were in the military, youwere gone 15 years, you were
building a career.

Speaker 1 (05:09):
You were taking care of the family, so coming home is
very hard for you to just belike guy who shows up and starts
to lay down the law orwhoopings and things like that.
Yeah, and I would talk to himon the phone and I'd speak to
him and things like that.
He knew exactly who I was.
It's not that I was just goneall the time.
I'd speak to him almost everyday, but I wasn't there when
you'd come home from schoolbeing able to say I'm gonna tell
your dad when you get home.
It wasn like that.

Speaker 2 (05:21):
I wasn't, I wasn't going to show up, you know,
because I was gone yeah, what doyou think discipline looked
like back then versus what itlooks like today in a more
generalized sense it was morephysical consequences.

Speaker 1 (05:35):
Um, for me, growing up, it was more physical
consequences.
As a young man, as a boy, my,my father was quick to to the
spanking, to the, to the beaten,to the punishment side of more,
so than to the explanation andreason side.
And I think I'm probably moreinto the reason side, but I
should be more the way my fatherwas, because in the end I
turned out pretty good.

(05:56):
So why fix what ain't broken?

Speaker 2 (05:58):
Our fathers raised us we're nearly about the same age
, right Approximately.
Then the way we raise ourchildren, who are now in their
twenties, and the way these guys, these younger, 20, some years
old, are raising their children.
So what about you guys?
Like what do you find that wasdifferent from the way you were
raised, versus the way you wantto raise your own kids?
So you just wait.
I know it's coming, but let'sgo.

(06:19):
That's what I want to hear.

Speaker 4 (06:25):
I think I'm a little soft with my son, like I don't
never beat him or anything likethat.
I kind of just let him be a kid.
I feel bad if.
I beat him for being a kid and Ifeel like I, I feel like I
raised him with more love thanwhat I got.
My dad didn't know how to showthat.
He was like an old schoolHaitian.
My son know I love him.
Like I always tell him I lovehim and you know what I'm saying
.
Just I embrace him more thanwhat I'm saying.
Just I embrace him more thanwhat I got when I was a kid.
How was your dad when he died?
He was 55.

(06:45):
So, oh, I'm sorry, I didn'tknow he was there anymore.
Yeah, yeah, it's all good, butif he was alive today he would
probably be like 70 something.

Speaker 2 (06:51):
So he's much older, because you're my kid's age and
he's almost 20 years older thanI am.
Yeah, I, yeah, I see what youmean.
As far as that generation, theywere tough man.
So what you're doing is do youfeel like you might be
over-correcting?

Speaker 4 (07:06):
I don't know.
I might be a little bit becauseI feel like I might have to
make some changes soon.
He think I'm more of a friendand I need to make a boundary
you know what I'm sayingsomewhere to where he know, like
this is my dad still so I gotto kind of be more, a little

(07:26):
stern with them, yeah.

Speaker 2 (07:26):
So, yeah, I might have to make some corrections.
I think that's what happens alot of times is that we see
certain things based on the waywe come up and then how we've
acted, and then by the time wetake that dial and we
overcorrect.
So I think there needs to bethat balance.
Still, what are your thoughts,nai?

Speaker 5 (07:37):
I don't think I was over disciplined.
I don't want to make it seemlike I was just getting whooped
nonstop.
I definitely had a lot ofconversations.
I think I was raised like I'lljust speak about you, I'll speak
about the other parent becauseyou're here.
But I think you were overdisciplined physically.
So you took that into accountwhen you were raising us and I
was the only child for a while.
So I don't I can count on onehand how many whoopings you

(07:57):
actually passed out.
They all still hurt my feelingsbecause they were big deals.
But with my kids I don't punishthem for breaking rules they
didn't know were rules.
They're allowed to correct me.
They're allowed to question mebecause I said so or just me
being their mom.
I just take time to like I seethem as humans.
I don't want them to fear me, Iwant them to respect me.
But it's always like a two-waystreet.

(08:17):
Don't lie to me because mommytrust you, you're supposed to
trust mommy.
Like it's a two way street.
Mommy respects you, you respectmommy.
I always get to their level.
So I'm very gentle with them inthat way.
But I also am a disciplinarian,like if I, if you understand my
boundary and you break it, wehave an issue Now.
It's not always physical.
I would never pick anything upto assault my children.
They're small but they do getpopped, they do go to that wall.

(08:39):
They do get devices taken away.
I think I'm the onlydisciplinarian between the two
parents.
We just have differentparenting styles.
So I feel like someone has tomake sure they walk that fine
line.
But they still act likechildren.
I still allow them to makemistakes.
They can make messes, they cando all the things.
They can break things.
I allow them to mess up firstand I don't jump on them as long

(08:59):
as it's not threatening theirsafety.
They don't usually get introuble the first few times.

Speaker 2 (09:03):
When you say you allow them to correct.
You give me an example of whatthat looks like, because I think
that anyone my age is into that.
Going wait what?

Speaker 3 (09:10):
What did you say?
Are you crazy?
Well, I'll give you an example.
Correct you.
What do you mean?
So my twins Give me bills.
No, I know seriously.

Speaker 5 (09:17):
So my twins they received lollipops at school for
being happy helpers or whatever.
If they help the teacher theyget lollipops.
Well, when they got in the carthey were allowed to have their
lollipops.
They had two each.
They said something in the carthat was not Okay.
I corrected them.
I said mommy, doesn't like that, don't say it again.
They thought it was a joke.

(09:40):
They said it again, so I saidyou say it again.
I'm taking it to me.
Throw them out the window.
Mind you, I am a candy mom.
I have chocolate jars, I haveall kind of candies at the house
.
So if I throw away a lollipopout the window, my kids are not
being bullied.
They can get another one whenthey get home.
But when we got home I realizedthat one of my twins was holding
a lollipop.
She had hit it, I guess, andjust didn't give me both.

(10:02):
So in a way she was lying rightand so when I was taking them
out the car she already had itin her mouth so that I couldn't
take it away from her.
So she did get in trouble.
When we got inside she gotpopped, took the lollipop.
Whatever Come to find out, atthe end of the day.
They've already had their baths.
Everybody's good.
We're moving on dolls, we'retalking and she goes.

(10:22):
I don't think it's fair.
Well, and then she correctedherself and she said the only
thing I did wrong was eat thelollipop.
But I gave you my lollipops.
That was Cleo's lollipop.
This is Callie now talking tome.
So what Cleo did because Cleodidn't want to give me her
lollipop, she, you, mine, so Ican take this one and she got in

(10:43):
trouble technically for hersister's lollipop.
And she was just trying tounderstand.
Like, did I get in troublebecause I had a lollipop period
or because I took my sister's?
Like she just didn't understand.
So then I had to bring themback all together and we had to
have a conversation.
But I feel like before it wasyou got a whooping because you
didn't listen, like that's it,don't question me, whatever.
And now it's like we had to sitthere and really break it down,

(11:04):
like you can't get your sisterin trouble like that, or like
you have to listen when mommysays things.
We had to have a, we had adiscussion and it took like 15
minutes for everybody tounderstand what was okay, what
was not okay, what boundaries wecan break.
They had already been.
I didn't understand that.
I don't think that that wasfair.
I don't know how I broke thatrule what even was the rule that

(11:24):
I broke?
And I got to their level and wehad that conversation, and I
think that that's something thatwasn't.
It's not normalized.
Like you know, a kid is a kid.
A kid stays in a kid place.
You do it because I said so.

Speaker 1 (11:39):
And I just think that that parenting style is so.
Believe in women, children andterrorists.
Right, I don't negotiate withyou.
You know what I meant when Isaid give me those lollipops.
In that situation, I would seeit as my child's trying to find
a loophole.
They're trying to deceive,they're trying to get around,
they're trying to skirt therequirements that I've put on
them.
So, women, children andterrorists is what I think.

Speaker 5 (12:00):
I think for us they're four, right?
So I think we try to put adultmindsets into children.
She gave me her lollipops.
I asked her to give me.
She gave me both.
So in her mind she did what shewas asked to do.
Now, whatever is following,that is a reward.
I guess she really didn'tunderstand.
So now the other one that gaveher the lollipop is where I was
looking at her like why did youdo that instead of just giving

(12:22):
it to me?
So now I'm confused, like whoactually should have been in
trouble?
Both?
No, that's the thing.
So once we were done with thatconversation, they both hit the
wall.
They both understood the rule.
That's what I'm saying.
I will discipline, but I allowthem to have that conversation.
I allow them to question me.
I it's not a negotiation, it'sstill.
This is what I want, this,don't mind having that

(12:42):
conversation.

Speaker 2 (12:43):
I think it's commendable to have the
conversation, and I think G'sdead on when he says they're
trying to find a loophole Ofcourse I negotiate with
terrorists.
And here's what I'm hearing.
Here's what I'm hearing.
These kids are brilliant rightthere, and from the fact that
they can approach you, they havethe conversation.
Of course, you set up, you kindof set it up that way for them

(13:09):
to know they can come to mommy.
I think that's what's greatabout everything that you're
saying here.
I think what's good about it isthat they can go to mom or dad
and just be like hey, listen, Ihave a question about this.
But then you get thrown aroundand go.
You try to be slick.
I know exactly what you aredoing.
No, you don't get off on aloophole.
I understand it, but you, youget the rule.
In fact, you were actually alittle extra smart, which is how
you thought you can get awaywith this.
Yeah, but I do agree in thatsense with the whole.

(13:32):
Let's explain it now.
I'm not gonna go over it.
You know back and forth withyou.
Once I tell you why I'm doingthis.
This is what I used to do.
That, I think, is different.
That I do differently, likebefore it was because I said so.
Right, it was just what it is.
Hey, do this why?
I can't believe.
You just asked me why.
If I'm going to answer anything, it's because I said so.
I think that also back whenguys like your age near 20s

(13:56):
right now were growing up, Idon't think that your
intelligence was.
It wasn't appreciated.
I don't think we gave youenough grace, enough rope to say
, or even enough credit to say,they can't understand this if
you explain it to them a certainway.

Speaker 1 (14:12):
At what point could your children question you?

Speaker 2 (14:15):
When they're grown.
So now as an adult.
Can she question you?
Can she question me?
It depends on what theconversation is.
If the conversation is abouther life and what she wants to
do and I'm giving her advice andshe wants to question and go
back and forth, there's noquestion.
You're grown, you could do whatyou want.
But when it comes to somethingthat has to do with the family
that I created, right, if you'respeaking from that context,
we'll have a discussion.

(14:35):
But at the end of the day thefinal decision still lies with
what I want to do.
But she and I have a differentrelationship in the sense that
she's more she's my daughter,she's my oldest, but we do have
conversations Like I'll go toher for advice, for counsel.
We'll have those conversationsbecause I trust her.
I think she's very, very smart,so because of that I'll lean on
her in that way.
My son, who just turned 20 justlast week, still doesn't

(15:00):
question me.

Speaker 1 (15:01):
So go down the line.
How far back, would you say, tothe point where your kids could
actually question what you haveto say?
So you see, your 20 year oldcan't so 27.
It depends, right Like so, forinstance he wanted to join the
military.

Speaker 2 (15:14):
I was against it.
So I actually got a bunch of mybuddies from the military.
I said, look, I'm going toleave it up to him.
I didn't put my foot down andsay you're not doing this.
I said I actually want you tospeak to other people who are in
the military and then they'lltell you what they have to say.
I've had guys who said this isall I know, I love it, and the
majority of people that I knowis I have a lot of friends who

(15:35):
came from military differentbranches too who were just like
nah, I wouldn't do it again andI would not recommend for my kid
to do it.
But at the end of the day itended up being his decision.
I think it's somewhere in thelate teens when they get to
start questioning, because again, at that point man, they could
almost be they can have childrenof their own right.
So I'm having more discussions.

(15:57):
I don't think I've ever beenthat much of a hard ass sewer.
It's like my way or the highway.
It comes down to that.
But I really haven't had toomany challenges.

Speaker 1 (16:05):
They don't question your leadership.

Speaker 2 (16:06):
Yeah, I haven't had those challenges, so I guess
it's hard for me to answer thatquestion.
I haven't had the tantrums asteenagers.
Tantrums as teenagers, tantrumsas babies, sure, but I've never
had a teenage gentrum like Ihate, you go to my room.
That shit doesn't exist in myworld.

Speaker 4 (16:18):
I don't know what that's like do you feel like
your kids should like?
Fear you a little bit I don't.

Speaker 2 (16:23):
I don't think that's necessary for me and I don't
think it's necessary.
My son, for whatever reason,feared me.
Yeah, and I don't.
I still don't know why.
It was all love, but it wastough.
But I I also at the time.
Now I have another son, but atthe time I expected him to be, I
was raising him to be a man.
So I was a bit more stern withhim.
Right, I expected certainthings I mean, if there was, if
we were playing sports, andthere's certain things he

(16:44):
couldn't do.
I was sounding more like acoach, I was a bit more harsh, I
was pushing.
I was being that way because,as a man I'm, you know, I'm
raising a man, I'm raising a man.
But, to answer your question, Iprefer, in that order, love and
respect.
And the reason I don't putrespect first because I feel
like if there's enough love, thesacrifice that they will make,
the way that they will bendtheir own will to make sure that

(17:07):
I don't get disappointed, Ithink that supersedes everything
, because I've heard otherpeople my age, his age say my
biggest thing was making myfather proud, was making my
parents proud and making themhappy, and because I love them
so much because I admired themso much.
I think that takes care ofeverything else, if that makes
sense do you find that you dodifferent things?

Speaker 1 (17:26):
you have a blend of girls and you have boys full
yeah, I could see myself beingmore patient and more
understanding and more on thenegotiation side with my girls.
But my boys, I know that in theend, especially when they're
young, when they're young Ithink I'd be.
I was more hard on my son whenhe was young because I knew as
he got older I wouldn't have tobe hard on him, because I could

(17:48):
just look at him or I could tellhim, hey, stop, or whatever.
He would know because I washard on him when he was young,
as opposed to waiting until hegets older and then having to be
hard on him then.
So I think I'm more on thatside.
I want more of the respect andthen the love, because I feel
like you can't love me unlessyou respect me.
When you said you would preferlove over fear and respect, that

(18:09):
was kind of interesting to me.
Yeah.
Because on my side, I wouldprefer the respect and the fear
and then the love.
You know why fear?
I think fear is a necessarycomponent of respect.
You know, if you have to fearlosing or having that person not
around, like I want my, I wantmy girl, oh, fear in that way.
I want my girl to fear losingme.

(18:30):
Ok, fear having me not be inher life.
That's different.
I want to provide so much valueand so much utility.
Yeah, and I want to be so usefulthat finding another me is
exhausting, like the thought oftrying to replace me would be
unfathomable yeah and that's howit is like I trained everybody
in my life my mother, my sister,all my family members.

(18:51):
I am extremely helpful in somany different ways.
People depend on me.

Speaker 2 (18:55):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (18:55):
And that's probably bad on me because it creates
like a Superman complex.
I got to save everybody, I gotto do everything.

Speaker 2 (19:01):
And you're spread thin.

Speaker 1 (19:02):
Yeah, I am in many respects, but I also know that
everyone depends on me becauseI'm dependable.

Speaker 2 (19:08):
I agree with you on that one.
I think that's a little bitdifferent.
I think we're using fear in thewrong context Well, not wrong,
but in separate contexts here.
Because, yes, of course I wantthem to fear losing me because
of what I do and what Irepresent in their lives, but I
don't want them to fear me as inthey're scared If I come in,
like my boy right now, who's 13,right, I come home and I tell

(19:30):
him to do something or whateverhe's going to do it.
And that's out of love andrespect right I just think that
we can flip those any kind ofway and still end up being right
.
If you love me enough, you'llrespect me, because you'll care
about how I feel, and if you'renot showing me any respect, you
obviously don't love me.
So I think loving me enough isall I really need from you, and
the rest is for me to do my job,to step up as a man, so that

(19:53):
there's something for you tofollow and admire about me I
feel like with some kids theyjust like hard-headed so it
might look like they don'trespect you, but they just can't
get it right at the moment.

Speaker 4 (20:03):
I think like you got to do a lot for your kids to not
love you.
You know I'm saying it's likethat's true.
They're gonna see you as asuperhero regardless.
So it might be a kid thatalways mess up and it's like
dang, you don't respect me.
You know I'm saying you mustnot love me and they respect you
, they love you.
They just keep messing up atthe moment, so it's a cognitive
issue, I don't know, but likeyou know how it is like

(20:24):
everybody know a kid that yeahthey just can't stop fucking up
like it take them a while to getright seasons, you have to be
okay with your kids not likingyou and

Speaker 2 (20:35):
a lot of parents.
That's strong.
I like that.

Speaker 1 (20:37):
You got to be okay with your kids not liking you.

Speaker 5 (20:39):
I hear that every day .

Speaker 1 (20:40):
They're still going to love you, but you've got to
correct them and have them notlike you in that moment, because
kids' memories, their memoriesare fleeting.
They'll forget about what youwere mad about last week yeah
they'll get over it yeah so youstarted out a little too soft.

Speaker 2 (20:55):
Yeah, how are you gonna show up from this point
forward?

Speaker 4 (20:58):
and he's only three yeah, I started doing the little
things.
I don't know if they're toolittle, but like the other day
we had got some food and like hecrying because he don't want to
like bring it in the house, andit's light, it's not heavy, I'm
sitting like, okay, you don'tgot too soft, you're talking
about, you don't want to do it.
You want me to hold everythingfor you.
So I'm like, nah, you hold it,you bring it inside the house.
He crying while he doing it,lying, talking about it's too

(21:21):
heavy.
You know little things likethat.
I'm not going to do everythingfor you.

Speaker 1 (21:48):
Like you go do.
As a boy, he got to understandcertain things like that,
instead of looking at his dadlike, oh, dad going to bring it,
he's going to carry me here,he's going to do this, and that
you feel me, like what he saidabout.
I have to be OK with him cryingand not liking me at the moment
because, do that, go over thereand pick that up.
Go over there and move that.
Go over there and put thoseclothes over there, because
he'll be mom, I want some juice.
Hey, go over there, pick upthat juice box and put the
little straw in it and walk backto the couch.
You know you got to do that forthose kids cuz, like I said,

(22:09):
you won't make them soft, youwill make them dependent, and
even though my son's five, yoursis three, start instilling that
into them.
Repetition's the key.
They'll get to the point wherethey stop asking for things and
start being more self-sufficientand independent.

Speaker 2 (22:22):
So do you think it'd be different if you guys had
girls?
I?

Speaker 1 (22:26):
do think I'd be different with girls.

Speaker 2 (22:27):
Yes, Tell me about that.

Speaker 1 (22:29):
I think I'd be more into the.
Okay, I'll go get it for you.

Speaker 5 (22:32):
I would want to create that song.

Speaker 1 (22:35):
He just melted right, but I also know that's wrong.
Yeah, but I know as a young manyou have to be different.
Boys have to learn to do things.
They have to learn to be useful.

Speaker 2 (22:44):
I got girls.
Inevitably we end up melting.
It's just what it is.
Oh, yeah, you were melted for,please, you, you were melted for
.
You don't even understand.
This was my best friend forlike six years.
I remember a couple times whereshe's asleep on the couch in
the studio, things that youwon't even remember and um, yeah
, she got to be mad at me acouple of times, you know.

(23:05):
So, speaking of allowing you tocorrect me, there were a couple
of times I remember, like therewere times when she's mad and
I'm over here kind of likebreaking a little bit Fine,
let's, you know whatever it was.
But there were times againwhere I was really tough and I
had to show that, and maybe wecan talk about this a little bit
too.
Sometimes you look at the kid.
You just kind of made thatpoint a little while ago, nick.

(23:26):
You said you know, depending onthe kid, you can.
Sometimes the kid just don'tget it.
Sometimes the kid shows so muchpotential that my expectations
are sky high.
Now I'm like, okay, I see this,I'm going to extrapolate all
this out of you.
I want this to be who youbecome right.
So I'm going to chisel away allthe imperfections because I

(23:46):
want you to be this big,wonderful thing or whatever it
is, which is a lot of pressureto put on a kid, but that's what
I started seeing.
So when she started showingpotential at a very young age
and she was super young andshe's two years old, three years
old, running circles around thesix year olds so when I get bad
news from school, I'm over herejust losing my mind, losing my
shit, because at that point Ihad to be like this person who

(24:08):
was just going to hone in on allthe things that I thought that
I could do.
In retrospect, I did a lotwrong.
Obviously, I can see it now,but there were times where I
also did not imagine she coulddo anything wrong, which, by the
way, made me blind to a lot ofthings.
Yeah.
Yeah, so there were things thatyou'd get away with just because
she can't do anything wrong.
You know, it doesn't matterwhat anybody said and I'll be

(24:30):
beefing with her mother.
We didn't get along for a longtime, you know what I mean.
So she calls me about.
She's like hey, this is what'sgoing on with Nye.
I was committing the cardinalsin of not talking to her and
instead I was like I'm donetalking to you, Let me call my
daughter, which was obviouslywrong.

Speaker 4 (24:46):
This might be our topic, but I do got a question
about that.
Some people tell me that I juststarted, so it's going to be a
long time.
How long does this beefingthing take?
Because I'm ready for it to beover with.

Speaker 5 (24:56):
I can answer Let me answer Okay, yeah, yeah, Okay so
.

Speaker 4 (24:59):
She's just.

Speaker 2 (25:01):
Yeah so You're going to answer from your perspective,
or yes?
Actually.

Speaker 5 (25:04):
So it's crazy because I don't have many years on you,
but when I tell you you guysare the same age, a probably
older than me as far as a gauge,but, um, I am a firecracker
only with that person.
I mean, when all of thenegative characteristics that I
can have it comes out with him.
I use really bad profanity,like he makes me angry, and a

(25:28):
lot of the times I realize notanymore.
I mean nothing gets a reactionout of me now, but as long as my
kids are safe, I don't care.
But I realized that I wasparenting through pride and it's
really really hard to separatethe relationship from the
parenting.
And I had to have a lot ofconversations where I will call
my dad and be like I am losingit, I'm about to lose it.

(25:51):
I'd be in tears.
I mean I'm cursing, like I Ihate this guy, like what is
happening, I think I'm doing allthe right things and he just
makes my life so difficult.
Um, I've actually been counseledthat like you have to remove
your own emotions out of it.
You have to make it about thekids.
You have to be so non-reactivethat it almost makes them feel
silly to even do anything toirritate you.
You can't take anythingpersonal, anything If it's not

(26:15):
anything that you need to retainin one out one.
You also need to be able to sayI'm sorry, say I didn't
consider that, you know, likeswitch it up.
Sometimes, if something is saidto you, you're just like, oh, I
didn't think about that, my bad.
And then oftentimes, because Igo to counseling too, now I've
said things to him where you'renot doing this or you're not
doing that.
You too, now I've said thingsto him where you're not doing
this or you're not doing that,you're not doing this.

(26:35):
Like you don't even deservethis.
Like it's not my job to tellhim what he deserves.
There are things that I'vereceived that I don't deserve.
I get grace, he gets grace, weall get grace, but just
separating the two things andletting it be about the kid.
The kid doesn't want to be in asituation where the parents are
hostile, and sometimes oneparent.
It takes them longer to figureit out.
Sometimes they just want to bemad at you for the whole 18.
And it's not even 18.

(26:55):
It goes on forever.
You guys are going to begrandparents together, so it
doesn't end, I think, for mewith my situation is I just see
him as family and I just have to.
And sometimes it's a stepcousin that you only see once a
year and you tell him happybirthday on Facebook.
That's fine, but he's stillfamily and children that we love
the most we created together.
So it has to be bigger than theargument, the beefing it

(27:18):
literally just overnight, itjust stopped One day.
I was just like I promise youand I had to have that
conversation with him.
I had to say look, I don't knowif you can see the growth, but
the growth has happened.
I'm sorry if I've ever offendedyou, you know I'm ready to move
on from offending you.
I don't mean to offend you.
Clearly we're just polaropposites and we loved each

(27:39):
other at a time and now you knowwe're in a different space.
But I want us to be a team.
At the end of the day, we are ateam.
Whether we are romanticpartners or we're just
co-parents, we're a team.
So let's just cut the bullshit.
Let's stop all this senselessfighting, because if it's not
going to matter next year, whydoes it matter today?
Like, let's just, you know, andit's going to be hard.
It's going to be hard.
We went through years of insaneback and forth.

Speaker 4 (28:04):
And then I kid you not, overnight I was like I'm
done, so you have to be donewell, you see, it's easy to say
as the woman, because it's likeyou hold all the power, because
you was able to just stop thebeef and I could not be arguing
the beef was coming to me oh, sohe was coming to you I was.

Speaker 5 (28:19):
I wasn't just like okay, I was not just calling
that man, just beefing that wasnot my thing, but there would be
things where he would saysomething or I would say
something.
They would pop off immediately,and it would go on forever yeah
so in your situation, just stayneutral.

Speaker 4 (28:32):
I tried to.
I know bless, bless your heart.

Speaker 5 (28:35):
But it's one of those things where sometimes you need
to be a little bit nicer, youknow, not just say nothing.
Sometimes you need to be like Ididn't under.
I'm sorry, I didn't perceive itthat way and I know that's what
I'm saying.
It's hard for you because inyour head you're like I'm not
doing anything wrongno-transcript like oh okay,

(29:03):
that's great.
You have to literally respondlike that.
It is insane.
Like you're talking topreschool children.
See your ex-partner as a childsometimes.

Speaker 4 (29:13):
Oh, I already do.
Oh man, yeah, I already do.
You know, he's still a littlewounded right now.

Speaker 5 (29:19):
He's like got you on that.

Speaker 2 (29:20):
So, nick, let me put it to you this way right, with
Nye, she's talking aboutsomething that's more fresh and
more.
It's more raw.
Right, the wound is still verymuch open, and so this is what I
mean, even talking to her.
She's my daughter, but intalking to her, I learned a lot
like that I had never heard.
If you're having a conversation, how would you address it?
Because you're not going tolose your shit in front of the
kid, right?
At least you shouldn't, mostnormal people shouldn't.

(29:42):
The other thing that I heardthat was really, really powerful
is we all, especially as men.
One thing we'll say is bro, youdon't know how many times I've
said oh my God, eight more years.
She is 10, eight more years.
I don't have to fuck with heranymore.
That's child support.
That's different right?
Real life is like you said.
We're going to be grandparentstogether, so that means you're

(30:04):
dealing with this person for therest of your life.
You're going to have tointeract with this person.
You're going to see them atyour kid's wedding.
You're going to see them atyour grandkid's wedding.
You're going to be there.
You're going to have to somekind of way figure out how to
interact, and you are a team inthe sense that both your goals
is you want that child to win.
So here's the secret.
I used to react to whatever shitshe would do.

(30:24):
So, for instance, I lived inTennessee.
They live here in Georgia.
I will drive down here to comesee my kids.
I just drove six hours.
I tell you I'm going to be hereat three o'clock, for example.
I, kids.
I just drove six hours.
I tell you I'm going to be hereat three o'clock.
For example, I get to yourhouse, you're not around, kids
are not around.
Just drove six hours.
Man, I'm tired, I want to seemy kids, I want to take them out
, I want to go out with them,hang out with them and I'll call

(30:48):
them.
Calling, no answer.
Finally, about four, 30, anhour and a half later, oh, I'm
going to be a couple hours late,so just just wait.
yeah right, stuff like thatwould happen whole time we're in
the house.
Um, we can't go and they're inthe house we're so stuff like
that would happen, right, allthat stopped when I stopped
reacting my co-parent literallytold me one time and I will
never forget it.

Speaker 5 (31:05):
He said a reaction is all that I'm looking for.
I don't care if it's a good oneor a bad one, it's just.
I don't think he rememberstelling me that.

Speaker 2 (31:11):
But he's hooked up and said it, but that's really
what it is what he said.

Speaker 5 (31:15):
I know that, no matter what, I can get you
really happy or really madquickly and that's all it takes,
man, that's insane.

Speaker 2 (31:23):
How about if you don't?
Because the power is in thereaction that you give?
But why do we?

Speaker 4 (31:26):
have to go through that.
Get to the root of the beef,though, like what are y'all
beefing about?

Speaker 5 (31:30):
I think that that's what y'all need to talk about
too.
It's not about the kids.
It's never about the kids.

Speaker 4 (31:34):
It's nothing, though, like not so long ago she just
started.
So I asked her.
I said so what did I do thistime?
Like what's wrong?
And she says the fact that,like my father had me, like I'm
here.
So at that point I was like,okay, I can't, I can't win with
you.

Speaker 5 (31:56):
I can't stop live.

Speaker 1 (31:56):
I'm going to tell you this I literally have no idea
what to do.
I literally just exist andshe's pissed.
What this young lady saying isvery modern and very reasonable.
What he's saying is very mature.
I'm going to give you the otherside of it.
Do not ever let a woman thatdoes not have your best interest
have that much leverage overyou.
You be ready to burn everythingto the ground, like you're
saying to yourself you're tryingto do what's best for your
children and you want to spendtime with them, you want to

(32:19):
support them and things likethat.
If she just wants child supportand every time you try and
interact or take him somewhereor do something for him it's a
problem, then you removeyourself from there.
If you take your presence, yourreaction and everything away
from it and she sees how muchshe's losing, then she'll come
to the conclusion that havingyou around is actually better
than not.

(32:39):
If someone's hindering youhelping them, then you be ready
to remove yourself from them andit may be short term painful
for your, for your children oryou or for you, but you cannot
let someone have leverage overyou because, just like you said,
sometimes people just want areaction out of you.
And allowing people to have thattype of control over you is bad

(33:00):
for your sanity and it's badfor your spirit.
So you be ready to removeyourself, burn everything to the
ground, let your presence nolonger exist in their life.
If that's the case, you payyour child support, you pay
whatever you're supposed to, andthen you remove everything else
from it, and then they'll missyou.
They'll see how much youbrought to the table and I'd be

(33:20):
like, hey, come, get this littleguy.
Can you come do this?
And then after that get thingson paper.
They'll be more reasonable.
You'd be ready to, like I said,pull the pin on that grenade
and take everyone to die.
You know.
Yeah, I mean speaking to the micpull the grenade do not let
people have that type ofleverage over you, so anybody I
love what you're saying.

Speaker 2 (33:39):
I love what you're saying.
I'm gonna add one thing to that, and that was also the mature
response, but it's a trueresponse.
I think yours is more real thananything else that we've said
here.
I mean, I meant what I said,she meant what she said.
But what I like about it is thefact that he's peeling the
band-aid off and he's tellingyou look, this is gonna hurt,
but it's okay because it canonly last a certain time.
So here's the one thing thatI'll add.
He said go ahead and pay yourchild support.

(34:00):
Right, do what you have to do.
Keep pursuing your obligations.
Your obligations are yourobligations.
But if there is something inthe way of that say, for
instance, you're supposed tohave your son on the weekends go
pick up your son, but don'thave a reaction if she something
changed and only communicatethrough text yeah, this way it's
written down.

Speaker 5 (34:18):
Don't pick her up so she can say silly stuff to you
on the phone it's going toimpact your brother.

Speaker 2 (34:21):
You're gonna feel it.
I know what I'm saying to you,right, and I know what we're
asking you to do is real, realheavy.
But I'm telling you, kids arelittle humans.
They're gonna grow up.
They're going to see the truth.
My dad is always trying to pickme up.
He shows up, he calls.
She won't let me talk to him,mom won't let me.
They'll start to figure thatout.
I've heard men say well, look,if you keep trying and you keep

(34:45):
hitting a wall, stop trying.
I disagree with that statement.
I think that, as long as you dowhat you're supposed to do, but
to your point G, don't putyourself out there to just keep
getting hurt Like it's.
This is what I'm supposed to do, but I'm going to keep my
sanity.
I'm going to keep doing whatI'm supposed to do.
Anything beyond that, you don'tcontrol me.
You don't control reactions.
You don't get anything out ofme.

Speaker 1 (35:05):
Another thing don't be reckless, but you should have
more children.
And if you have more children,nothing makes a woman want you
to see their children more thanthem seeing you with other
children and you, being good tothem, go have you another baby
you be.
You be good to your otherchildren and you know what
surprisingly, your otherchildren's mothers will show up
wanting you to also be good totheir children, he said don't be

(35:26):
reckless I'm gonna add one more.
I'm not saying you have less,but do you?

Speaker 2 (35:29):
have any?
Are you with someone?
No, I'm not with anybody.
Well, when it happens,naturally because I think g and
I disagree on this, becauseearlier I was saying yeah, no,
it's like if I had to do it allover again.
I'm having way fewer kids,right, oh man?
And it has to do with the factthat I think the world is shit
in a way.
I think there's too much to beconcerned about.

(35:52):
Now that I do have children,I'm worried about them all the
time.
I think there's too much to beconcerned about now that I do
have children.
I'm worried about them all thetime.
I worry about things happeningto them.
Hell, on your way here thismorning, someone almost ran you
off the road.

Speaker 5 (36:00):
They did run me off the road and I called him losing
it.

Speaker 2 (36:02):
Yeah.
So she calls me crying like itdoesn't stop Right.
So I have this worry for therest of my life.
Sorry about that.
I'll be 90 and worry about my70-year-old kid who's calling me
crying because something'sgoing on.
So, yes, I would do it a littlebit differently, but I would
also make sure because I wouldnot want to go through that pain

(36:23):
again because it was painfulfor me to leave my kids.
So what you be careful with andI think that's what I mean by
don't be reckless is whoeveryou're going to have a kid with
next.
That needs to be a foreverperson.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (36:34):
I will say this as well.
For me personally, I think backover my ancestors, the people I
came from.
I know they survived wars, theysurvived famine, they survived
the transport across the ocean,all that type of stuff.
They survived all those thingsand they still managed to have
children, still managed to havefamily.
Now that the world is as goodas it's going to be, as bad as

(36:54):
we think it is, it's still thebest it's ever been.
So, to say, I don't want tohave any more children, or I
don't want to contribute to theworld, because it's hard.
After what my ancestors wentthrough, I just think that's.
I can't do it.
You know me personally.

Speaker 2 (37:10):
Yeah, that's an interesting perspective.

Speaker 1 (37:12):
I don't think you should necessarily look at it as
oh, the world's too tough, it'sgoing bad.
I think it's been physicallyharder.
It's probably mentally harderto see the way the world's going
at the moment, but it's justdifferent.
Yeah.

Speaker 5 (37:23):
Good point, Good point man but, pregnancy, but
pregnancy Well we're talkingfrom our perspective.
I guess right Jesus.

Speaker 2 (37:32):
On a lighter note, what are some of the strictest
rules y'all grew up with?
Mine is so silly.

Speaker 5 (37:40):
Y'all are going to think it's so bad.

Speaker 1 (37:42):
Be home on time and don't lie.
Yes, do not lie to me.
That's the strictest rule.

Speaker 2 (37:47):
That was it.

Speaker 4 (37:48):
Yeah, it's not bad.
Yeah, I couldn't really do muchanyway, so I don't even see it
as being strict.

Speaker 1 (37:57):
It's just school church.
Yeah, I think church was abigger part of my life growing
up than I have it as part of mychildren's life.

Speaker 4 (38:00):
But yeah, I was forced to go to church.
Yeah, me too.

Speaker 1 (38:03):
On saturday, yeah, saturdays yeah so y'all, seven
day of venice yeah, okay, yeah,so I stopped going.

Speaker 2 (38:10):
I mean I yeah, I stopped mean, yeah, I pop in
every now and again, but yeah,my rule, I think, growing up was
don't lie With my dad.

Speaker 5 (38:20):
It was definitely just don't lie to me.
If you tell me the truth, we'llfigure it out, but just don't
lie to me.
And I have the same rule for mykids, the only thing that I

(38:40):
allow them to do.
Only their other parent knowsthat this is a thing, but I
allow it.
I'm trying not to be, but I amstill somewhat of a sailor.
Everyone that they know, all theadults in their life, use
profanity and they hear it.
They hear it at school, theyhear it everywhere, and
sometimes you know I'm sure theywant to let one out.
So I let them, but not in frontof me.
They have a safe place.
If they feel like they need tosay their one S word or their
one H word, go in that bathroom,close the door and just hearing
the little voices be like shit,shit, shit, shit, shit, shit,
shit, shit, shit, shit, shit,shit, stupid.
But they're in the bathroomwith the door closed.

(39:01):
So there is a place where youcan break the rules, as long as
it's in the home.
So when you go to school, whenyou go to church, when you're
being watched by a family member, that's not the time to not be
a young lady, not be respectful.
There's a place where you canbreak the rules, and it's with
me, I guess it's a little-.

Speaker 4 (39:18):
Why can't they do it in front of?

Speaker 5 (39:19):
you.
They can if they'd like, but mything is they don't know that
Nah, I ain't cool with that.
No, my thing is they don't know, they don't understand time and
place just yet.
So that's what I'm trying toimplement there is a time and a
place.
Now I still.
This is very weird for me.
This is probably last year iswhen I finally started saying
like words in front of you.
Before I used to be like daddycan I curse?
Because I'm in a mood and Iwould have to ask first and I'm

(39:42):
gonna have children and I'mstill like I need.
There's no way I can tell youthis story without the words.
I have to say the words and Istill wanted to be like that,
like you can say what you needto say, but I'm still mom.
You don't say it in front of me, like there has to be some type
of never understood that rule.
I feel like because they don'tknow not to curse at you.
They don't know the difference.
Yet there's no boundary.
They don't understand.
So if they're allowed to justsay things, they're just going

(40:04):
to throw it out and say it to meso for me, not with me.

Speaker 2 (40:07):
Well, it's not just that right.
I've always known that you knowbad words very, very early on.
But I think this is kind ofwhat Merle was talking about
earlier when he said somethingabout you know having more
respect and fear.
I think this is why that comesin right.
So again we can kind of go backand say you love me enough that
you respected me to make sureyou didn't say those words in
front of me.
I mean, you're a grown womanwith kids of your own and still

(40:29):
not cursing when you're talkingto me that's far and it's my
favorite.

Speaker 5 (40:31):
And I still find that's bar and it's my favorite
and I still find a way she'slike it's my favorite, but I
can't say it Right.
And still don't.

Speaker 2 (40:37):
And you know there's a question of like same thing.
I curse a lot, but there was apoint where I don't know if it
was maybe a few years ago, whereI started saying bad words in
front of my mom.
Again, it was just a using likewhat we call bad language.
I don't think it's bad, I justthink it's colorful.
But I think when a kid is five,six, seven years old I don't
even know if I how I feel aboutthe whole you can say it.

(41:05):
I'm giving you permission tosay it.
Go say it here.
But again, I've made too manymistakes to know what's right or
wrong when it comes to that, soI'm not sure.
I just feel like, yeah, youdon't get to say not to me, or
even in front of me at that age.
Now, when you start to paybills again and you're grown and
you're in your own environment.

Speaker 5 (41:18):
You're paying bills at your house, At your house,
right in your own environment.

Speaker 2 (41:21):
And even then, you know again, look at you, look at
Julian, who's 20 years old.
We were at the gym, working outtogether, we were hanging out,
developing more of a friendship.
Now, because of his age, it'sjust the way it is my 13 year
old son.
We were doing some volunteerwork at a nursery one time and,
you know, I asked him a question.
I was like how are you doingover there?
And he goes can I curse, yeah,cause I'm dying to hear this.

(41:44):
And he goes this is prettyshitty.
And I was like that's good,cause he's shoveling shit.

Speaker 1 (41:49):
But again, if I go, you know, go clean the kitchen
or something like that.
He's like well, this is fuckedup, I'm not going to hear that.
Yeah, I'm in my 40s and I don'tthink I've cursed in front of
my father or my mother, eventhough I curse profusely.
It's the same thing withsmoking, like I smoke cigars,
but I feel weird smoking infront of my parents.
Really yes, I do.

(42:09):
Interesting.
I feel really strange doing it.
I do it at family functionshere and there, but I do feel
strange.
Stefan, let me ask yousomething.
You have boys, right?
You have a 20-year-old and youhave like a 13-year-old.
How close do you expect them tobe in terms of like their
support of one another, theolder one teaching the younger
one, things like that?
No-transcript relationship tothat teacher mentor type

(43:00):
relationship.

Speaker 2 (43:01):
That's a great question.
Again, I don't do it enough andI need to do a better job of it
.
I'm recognizing this again.
When you asked the questionjust now, it triggered something
for me to go.
I'm not doing that job as wellas I should be doing it, but he
has the biggest heart in theworld.
So all I need to do is justkind of redirect him and say hey
, just look out for your littlebrother.
So I need to do a better job ofdoing that, because otherwise

(43:22):
you won't think of it.

Speaker 1 (43:23):
Yeah, absolutely.
Especially as boys, you need,you need that.
You need to feed off other menfor the, for the cause.
You can't experience everythingyourself.
You got to take in things fromother other sources and other
locations.
You know, we used to have thoseuncles.
You'd have the cousins, you'dhave the older brothers, you'd
have that.
But we're so separated now thatyou don't have that that
anymore.
So, yeah, you should definitelyhave those influences.

Speaker 2 (43:44):
And one thing that I think what parenting too, is
that I feel blessed in the waythat I have much older kids who
can almost be parents to theyounger ones.
Not in the way that you know.
Some people will say well, Ihave kids and now the kid gets
to raise this one or babysit.
Not at all in that way, In away where in 10 years my
youngest will be 19 years old.

(44:05):
There are ways that my oldestwill be able to connect with her
as a young woman who's beenthere, done that that I can't.
I think she'll listen more toher sister and she will listen
to her mom and to listen to me.
So when she's, if she decidesto spread her wings, start
wilding out, whatever it is,she's got three older sisters

(44:25):
that can kind of rein her backin and have those conversations.
So in that way I'm lucky inthat sense.
My 13 year old son he's gonnawhen he is 20, my oldest son
will be 27.
Maybe there's words of wisdomthat could come from them.
You know how young kids willlook at us, like that's how I
was back in your day.
You're so old.
You know they may not say that,but that's the reason they're

(44:47):
not listening, because they'realso kind of thinking about how
disconnected we are.
Too much of a gap ingenerational wise, you know what
I mean.
Whereas, oh, this is my oldersister.
I looked up to her just a fewyears ago.
I still look up to her and Iknow she's recently lived it,
Whereas one my dad has neverlived it because, A he's not a
woman, B he's 150 years old.

Speaker 1 (45:10):
My father would tell me things that would happen in
my life, even though he grew upin the 70s.
He he would tell me hey, son,watch out for this.
And I and I, just like you said, I would look at him as being
old.
I would do the same thing withmy older son.
I would say, hey, look I, thisis gonna happen, things are
gonna pop up.
Watch out for that little girl.

(45:30):
I see these little signs of her, you and her interacting
together, you know yeah, I wouldpoint those things out.
History repeats itself.
Like everything my dad said isthe same thing I was saying to
my son and my son he's probablygoing to say to his son.

Speaker 2 (45:42):
So ain't that crazy?
Yeah, ain't that crazy, becauseno matter what you do, there's
nothing new under the sun man.
And then what's interestingabout parenting is, I guess I'll
ask you guys what is yourbiggest frustration with
parenting.
Ooh-wee, co-parenting, nick,you over here, hurt.

Speaker 4 (46:00):
The extra child Co-parenting.

Speaker 2 (46:03):
I'll let you expound on that a little bit before I
ask anybody else.
So your biggest issue withparenting is having a co-parent.

Speaker 4 (46:09):
Yeah, Because, like, if it was just me, I could just
go ahead and make all thedecisions and go this route, do
whatever I want to do, but sinceit's not, I gotta go say
something to somebody who'salways gonna disagree with me.

Speaker 2 (46:21):
Let me ask you a question.
Oh we, she's not here to defendherself.
She can't say anything.
So the question is this do youfeel that she has your son's
best interest at heart all thetime?
I want to say all the time notall the time, so that's not the
case.
Do you think that yourperspective could be skewed a
little bit, because you're stillvery much in?

Speaker 4 (46:41):
the moment, anytime when it's time to make a
decision or something, I have anidea.
Her goal is to just go againstthe grain every time.
I'd be like hold on, just likestop, let's think about it, but
she just don't want to agreewith me.
You get what I'm saying, sothat's how I know it's just me.
I feel like I got to be patient.

Speaker 2 (46:58):
Do you have a support system in the sense that
someone else could bring heryour ideas?

Speaker 4 (47:08):
and she'll listen to them.
If they come from someone else,I call her dad.
So she wanted other people'sopinion to see if she was
tripping.
So I call her dad every timewhen I feel like she wrong or
just anything like that and myfriend feel like I'm lame for
that.

Speaker 2 (47:23):
I think it's wonderful that you had that
opportunity, bro, are you?

Speaker 4 (47:25):
kidding me.
I don't know what's the worst.

Speaker 5 (47:27):
If there was a different work, like handle it
without the dad.
Yeah, you can't she feel likeI'm bringing them into it, which
they are into it, but they areinvolved.
They're the grandparents,that's right, yeah.

Speaker 4 (47:38):
So I feel like, why would I be wrong?
And the dad?

Speaker 5 (47:40):
can probably have more of a conversation at a
different level because theydon't have that relationship.
So when I call his mom or I'lltext I'll be like, hey, this is
what's going on.
I'm getting frustrated.
I need a little bit morestructure with this.
I'm about to lose my patiencehere and this is my only goal.
So can you help me with this,or do I need to go ahead and go

(48:01):
with my idea?

Speaker 2 (48:02):
I think that you're doing the right thing If you
have that door open to you andyou're able to pick up the phone
and go.
Hey, this is what I'm dealingwith.
Here's the situation.
Here's why I think this.
Can you maybe speak to her?
He might be able to tell youwell, no, I think you're wrong.
Right, Because that's not theway I would approach it.
And oh, now you have adifferent perspective, Now you
understand why she was feelingthis particular way, or whatever

(48:25):
it may be.
So I think that, no, I don'tthink it's wrong at all, brother
doing it.

Speaker 5 (48:34):
He knows her vulnerable side.
She's meeting you with thishuge wall up, not her dad.
So he might even be able to sayI'm not going to get involved
in this.
But this is how I wouldcommunicate with her if I were
you call whoever is in thathouse.
I definitely plan on it youknow, I wouldn't stop either.

Speaker 1 (48:44):
Hey man you're coming at things from like a very
logical, reasonable point ofview, and you're trying to deal
with grenade again you're tryingto deal with somebody who's
coming at it from an emotionalpoint of view, like they're
doing it based on how you makethem feel yeah, based on what
you're asking them to do.
You cannot reason withunreasonable people.
If you're trying to dosomething that you consider
reasonable and they're nottrying to trying to accept it,

(49:06):
you beating your head againstthe wall.
Trying to reason with anunreasonable person is just
gonna upset you you're right,you gotta be willing to pull the
pin on the grenade.

Speaker 2 (49:18):
I love that.
So, uh, gee, what is?
What is that?

Speaker 1 (49:22):
one thing that you find is the most challenging
thing about parenting as far asparenting goes for me,
separating my son as far as,like he's, he's a boy I know
life as a man is going to behard and I think that his mother
doesn't see that, so she seesit as I'm being overly harsh on
him and I see it as I'mpreparing him for the world.

(49:42):
She's seeing it as he's youngand you know he's too hard.
Well, what is the age Like?
Balancing that I do need to beloving and tender and things
like that with him, but at thesame time preparing him for the
future that he's going into.
The world's a rough place.
I was in the military for 17years, so I know the world's a
rough place.
So, preparing my son for thosethings and at the same time,

(50:06):
navigating the family dynamic asfar as his mother and things
like that goes, she's shelteredfrom the world because I've
sheltered her from it, that'syour job right, but my son.
I'm not sheltering him from it.
He's got to go out there.
He's got to learn to fightlions, tigers and bears and slay
dragons.
You know he's got to learn that.

Speaker 2 (50:22):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (50:22):
And that process is not something that she doesn't
feel like it should be that hardfor him.

Speaker 2 (50:29):
But it sounds to me from our conversations even
prior to this, that you balanceit all out, because I feel like,
from what we talked aboutbefore, yes, you're tough on him
, you're trying to teach himeverything you're saying, you're
trying to build an armor aroundhim and show him how to build
his own armor and shield.

Speaker 1 (50:44):
I see it as me to him .
I see that.
But from his mother to seeingus interact, she just sees it as
I'm being harsh on him.
But I know I'm doing this outof love, I'm doing this out of
I'm caring for you, I'mrespecting you, I'm preparing
you.

Speaker 2 (50:57):
Let me ask your question and let me know if this
is personal.
But do you tell your son youlove him?
Yes you kiss your son, tell himyou love him, hug him and
things like that, then to methis is what I'm saying like
there was a time where this wastaboo.
Our dads didn't do that, my daddidn't.

Speaker 1 (51:12):
I can't remember being hugged by my dad very many
times.

Speaker 2 (51:14):
You know what I mean, and I talked to a lot of guys
our age who pretty much are likeyeah, that's not something we
grew up with.
Even dudes who had a greatrelationship with their fathers
would still grow up and say wedidn't start saying I love you
to my dad and vice versa, untilI was in my thirties, because I
had kids of my own and I hadlearned to soften up because
that's not the way I was raised.
But you're doing that as wellas being tough and being that

(51:38):
model for him to follow.
So I think that balance isgreat, because what's most
important is this what is yourson seeing?
What's that image?
Is he going to grow up and go?

Speaker 1 (51:48):
yeah, my dad was just a hard ass, never heard I love
you, no, no, that's not the caseas far as, like what you're
saying, you understand thatbecause you're a man, yeah, but
have you ever dealt with havingyour wife say, hey, you're being
too hard on the kids, like,even though you know you're
doing it out of love, you knowyou're preparing them for
something?

Speaker 2 (52:06):
I haven't had that because of who I am.
I'm not this unreasonablepunishing type.
Dad, I do think that I need todo what I've never had the
criticism of you being too hardon them.

Speaker 1 (52:16):
No.
Have you ever seen somebodyresist arrest?
Sure, okay, when you seesomebody resisting arrest, the
arrest looks hard.
It looks tough Even though it'sall procedural, it's all by the
book.
It looks rough from somebodylooking at it from the outside,
but that's what it it takes.
It's the same way withparenting boys.
You know parenting boys itlooks rough from the outside,

(52:37):
but it's what it takes.
There's going to be someresistance.
There's going to be some somestruggle involved that's a good
good analogy.

Speaker 2 (52:43):
I like that.
Now, what's the hardest thingabout parenting?

Speaker 5 (52:46):
don't say cool parenting no, he's cool, I
promise you, we vibe now it's.
It's we good, I think, timemanagement just because I work a
lot.
I work a lot and I wasprivileged enough to spend a lot
more time with them when theywere younger.
I had them during COVID.
I nursed them until they werealmost a year.
So it's just, it's weird now,because now it's like I can go

(53:07):
to the store and they're likeare you leaving again?
Like, where are you going?
Do you have to go to work?
Work takes so long, like I haveto bring them to school forever,
and that's what they say.
It's just so long, it's forever.
And then I nanny on weekends.
So it's like I'm just trying toprovide for them.
I want there to be some type ofyou know, financial stability.
So I work like a dog, I'm upbefore 6am six days out of the
week and just balancing that.

(53:28):
I want to provide for them.
But I also don't want to havethe kids that are like, yeah,
like we were cool with all thestuff, but I would have rather
have less stuff and you be here.

Speaker 2 (53:36):
You can't get it right.
You get them all the stuff.
They're going to complain bythe time you weren't there.
You spend too much time.
They're going to complain aboutthat.
You were broke bum and theydidn't have shit that Timmy had.
So there's no for everyindividual.
Every child is different.
There's going to be a kid thatI know is going to grow up to be

(53:58):
like I admire my dad so muchbecause he was never here.
He worked so hard.
The lights were always on.
There's going to be a kid who'sgoing to be like my dad
balanced it all out.
We can barely pay the bills.
We ate rice and beans andthat's what we ever had.
We never had a piece of chicken, but I'll tell you the love
that I got from my dad and theyadmire it.
So I don't think that there's away to no there's no way, it's
just a guilt, and that's.

(54:18):
That's what parenting is,because that's still that's.
That's to me.
That's that's the challenge aswell.
For me, the biggest challengeis the fact that I don't
understand why in the hellbecause, yeah, because I feel
like I'm about to have a tantrumright now I don't understand
why y'all don't listen.
Honestly, we don't either.
I don't understand why it takesfor you to burn your head on

(54:38):
the stove when I told you it washot.

Speaker 5 (54:40):
We didn't think that stove got that hot.

Speaker 2 (54:42):
It's life, my frustration, even with my son.
I tell him I'm like dude, I'mliterally you from the future
and I'm coming back in time 20,30 years to tell you certain
things that I've already seen.
If only you will listen, thisis how your life's going to go.
You know?
Simple example I was trying toget my son to play golf at nine,
then 13, then 14 or whatever.
Now he wants my clubs.

(55:03):
Oh, can I get your clubs to goplay?
Yeah, nigga.
So you understand the advantagenow, when I was trying to
prepare you a long time ago, buthe didn't want to.
But now he wants to.
But I'm like here's whathappened.
You can never get those 10, 15years back because that free
ride to the HBCU, playing golfthere, that would have been a

(55:24):
free ride for you if youunderstood what I was trying to
teach you back then.
Now here's what G is saying Igive him a choice.
That's where I went wrong.
Tiger's dad didn't give him achoice.
Michael Jordan's dad didn'tgive him a choice.
Kobe's dad didn't give him achoice.
The people who become thegreatest at what they do.
When you hear their storiesit's damn near abusive, but it's
like this is what you're goingto do so if you want greatness
for your children.

(55:44):
Sometimes you have to be thatwarden in a sense.
So I think that's what'schallenging.

Speaker 1 (55:50):
Quick story.
So I think that's what'schallenging quick story.
Go for it.
My oldest son that has my twograndkids.
When he was graduating fromcollege I said hey, I'm gonna
buy you a car.
Go pick out whatever car youwant, right, he was sending me
like hondas and toyotas andthings like that responsible
nice sedans.
In the end he ended up withlike a camaro.
You know he was like dad, Iwant this camaro.
And I know what he was thinking.

(56:10):
He was thinking you know, it'sflashy, it's nice.
He wants a little nice car.
Right?
I told him your insurance isgoing to be high, you're going
to burn a lot of gas.
You're going to potentially geta lot of tickets.
There's going to be a lot ofconsequences to having this car.
I'll let you have it, butthere's going to be consequences
.
Fast forward, six years later.
We got rid of that car two daysago.
It was loading onto the truck,being hauled away, towed away.

(56:33):
He looked at me and said dad, Ishould have listened to you
back then.
I spent a lot of money oninsurance, I spent a lot of
money on gas, I spent a lot ofmoney having girls chase me
around and it caused a lot ofproblems, and I should have
listened to you back then yeahthey got to come to that
conclusion but you're right myyounger son.
He's not gonna have that choiceexactly.

Speaker 2 (56:51):
Tell him to get right , and so lesson is for you more
than anybody else like he's gothis own lesson, but it's like
the years are lost and you getto do it differently that
conclusion on his own yeah, youknow you're absolutely right.

Speaker 1 (57:03):
I'll give them some, some rope to hang themselves.
They might have to just learnit on their own.
Some kids just don't listen,they just don't get it.
They got to get it on their own.

Speaker 2 (57:10):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (57:11):
Yeah, in the future, my youngest son, if I want him
to be great, if I want him toskip all those bad steps, yeah,
I'm probably just going to haveto know this is what you're
going to get.

Speaker 2 (57:20):
They were very hard on me.
So then I was giving my kidschoices, and that has to do with
the fact that I come from adifferent culture.
You didn't ask why, you didn'tquestion your reason.
It's just what it is.
This is what you do.
My mindset was I'm going to dothings a little bit different,
within reason.
I would give choices.
Well, she doesn't want to playguitar anymore, she doesn't want
to play piano anymore, shedoesn't want to practice?
All right, we'll stop.
But then years go by and you godamn.

Speaker 1 (57:44):
If you have so many children, do you think it's
better to under parent them interms of giving them choices and
options and stuff like that, ordo you think it's better to
over-parent them?
A lot of discipline, a lot ofstructure, a lot of.
You're going to complete this.

Speaker 2 (57:56):
If I had to pick one, I would pick over-parenting, I
would pick pushing, I would pickbeing a coach.
I would rather them later onnot like me and say I wish you
weren't so hard on me, butthey're successful.
Then I wish you had pushed me alittle harder, because I think
that's the worst thing as aparent that you can hear from a
child later on in life, whenthings are not going so well, to
look at you and go I wish youhad pushed me a little harder.

(58:16):
Have you had things, instances,where you're good, I think
you're great so you know, I didactually push me.

Speaker 5 (58:23):
I think that's why I'm in the field that I'm in.
My brother and I both had theopportunity to do sales.
My dad is big on.
Just try it.
You learn different skills.
You know, you learn how tocommunicate, you learn how to
get out of tough situations.
I was thrown into it and I wasterrified and even though I'm
great at having conversationswith people, it was scary for me
and I was thrown into a summerprogram and then I traveled a

(58:44):
little bit and now I have theskill set to where, like, I've
never interviewed for a job andnot gotten it just because I'm
great at interviews, I'm greatat having conversations, I'm
amazing at customer service andI can sell anything.
And now I'm in a position towhere I have a career Like this
is something that I want to do.
You know, eventually the goalis to own an agency and have all
of the things, and had I notwent ahead and went through with

(59:06):
the sales thing, I wouldn'thave make the- Not retail either
.

Speaker 2 (59:09):
Door to door sales.
Knock on people's strangersdoors, right, right, the hard
shit.
So now.

Speaker 5 (59:13):
All the other sales are like please whatever joke
like I can, I can talk toanybody, it's not a big deal.
I don't have that fear ofconfrontation.
I don't have that fear ofovercoming objections like those
are all things that you learnin sales and I was pushed.
There are times where I waslike I'm done, I'm going home, I
don't want to do this, it sucks.
And he was, he was just likenope, you're not done, you get
off at eight, go hit four moredoors.
I don't care if it's hot.

(59:33):
If you want to not be hot, getinside of a house because they
have AC.
And that was it Like.
I just had to figure it out andI was pushed.

Speaker 2 (59:46):
My brother was not and I, you know, I didn't.
I didn't get to do that.
I had to finish the worst thing.
What's the thing that bringsyou the most joy about parenting
?

Speaker 4 (59:54):
The best thing is like the love.
I never felt what I get from myson.
I do whatever for him and I'mcool with just a hug and a smile
and stuff.
Like I never thought that Icould love anybody more than I
love my mom.
I'd die for him.
You know what I'm saying.
I'd do whatever.
Yeah, and he looks at me likeI'm just perfect and I'm still
trying to figure things out.
Yeah, and he looks at me likeI'm just perfect.
I'm still trying to figurethings out.

(01:00:14):
All right, g what?

Speaker 2 (01:00:15):
about you, brother.

Speaker 1 (01:00:16):
Unconditional love is for women, children and pets.

Speaker 2 (01:00:19):
Dogs specifically, not even cats.

Speaker 1 (01:00:21):
Yes, my son's my older son.
He's a knucklehead, he doesthings, he messes up stuff all
the time, but I love him.
It's the same thing with myyounger son.
I love him intensely, and justhaving him around, knowing that
when I'm gone there'll besomebody that looks like me
continuing on on the earth andyou know just, there'll be
another Jermon Elder on earth.

(01:00:41):
So knowing that makes me reallyhappy, makes it all worth it.
I'll go through the fire, I'llgo through the struggles,
whatever it takes, to take careof him.

Speaker 2 (01:00:49):
That's awesome.
To me, it's more spiritual.
I kind of feel like they choseme, as opposed to the other way
around.
I knew that I wanted children,but I didn't know how many, who
they'd be, what they would looklike.
So I kind of feel like, on moreof a soul level, I was chosen
to be a father and so to me, I'mhonored in that way and I feel
that happiness and blessingevery single day.
So when I talk about if I coulddo it again, I wouldn't have

(01:01:11):
kids, you know, because of thestate of the world or my
concerns, my worries, I alsoconsider the fact that I never
had a choice, because they weregoing to be with me and I'm
lucky to have them.
And, like you guys said, whatyou get back from them, the way
they look at you, the way theylook up to you I don't think
there's anything better thanthat.

Speaker 1 (01:01:34):
To me, the mark of a great man is access to resources
, influence over people andchildren.
You know you're able to have alot of children, take care of a
lot of children, influencechildren.
That says a lot about you.
You know a lot of people havesmall families, but I mean when
you, when someone loves youenough that they want to
reproduce you that many timeslike that, that says a lot about
you.

Speaker 2 (01:01:47):
I love it.
Thank you, brother.
Nye, you can go last and cry.

Speaker 5 (01:01:53):
Oh, okay, I'm not going to.
I'm so tough.
I really always wanted to be amom, so I think them simply
existing is just an answeredprayer.
They've made me a more gratefulperson.
Like it's just every day.
I want to be better becausethey exist.

Speaker 3 (01:02:03):
So everything All right.
That's it.
Oh, I did it Woo.

Speaker 2 (01:02:08):
So, listen, we're about to wrap up.
You lost the coin toss, whichmeans that you get to go out and
do the outgoing messages.
Who are you supposed to be?
Dolly.

Speaker 5 (01:02:19):
Parton Somebody country Dolly's good, let's see
if I can turn it on.
Is it on?
All right, y'all?
Thank you for listening to thepod.
Please support us by followingthe show.
Leave us a five-star on Applepodcast.
Thank you so much for listening.
We'll catch you next week whenwe share conversations
surrounding real issues we dealwith every day Manhood matters.

(01:02:41):
We're out.

Speaker 2 (01:02:42):
Let's go.
That was great.

Speaker 1 (01:02:44):
It was a nice little Southern twang.
That's what gets my sales going.

Speaker 2 (01:02:51):
Hey, family, before you leave us, Naila's daughters,
Cleo and Kelly, turn five thisweek and mom has a very special
message for them.
Naila, you have the floor.

Speaker 5 (01:03:05):
Hi littles, it's mommy.
I wanted to take some time torecord something that you can
play back and listen to anytimeyou need to in the future.
In just a few days you'll befive years old.
I say this all the time, but Iwant to remind you that I've
always wanted to be a mother,and at 19 years old I was told
that that probably wouldn't bemy reality.
But God had mercy and blessed mewith you two.

(01:03:27):
You two are so special to me.
You are my world and I loveevery single thing about you.
I want you to know that you areloved, no matter what, no
matter the situation.
I want you to know that my lovefor you isn't based on anything
you could ever do for me orgive me, and it will never be
something that you ever have toearn.
It's limitless and it growsevery day.
Know that you are important andwhen life gets loud, you'll

(01:03:50):
always have a quiet and safeplace with me.
You, too, make everyone that isprivileged to be a part of your
life and village want to growand be better.
You simply existing is a dailyanswered prayer.
You solidified my faith andconfirmed that God is indeed
good and gives grace that wedon't deserve.

Speaker 3 (01:04:09):
I love you, cleo Sky, and I love you, callie Sky.
Thank you for choosing me.
I will love you through my verylast breath.
Happy birthday, littles.