May 26, 2025 • 47 mins
Remember when men had hobbies? Not just squeezing in an occasional round of golf or gaming session, but actually dedicating regular time to activities that brought them joy and connection with other men. This disappeared cultural norm became the catalyst for one of our most reflective conversations yet.
Our panel dives into the complex reasons why modern men struggle to prioritize leisure. From self-imposed productivity guilt to societal expectations and relationship dynamics, we unpack the shame many feel about taking time for themselves. As our host poignantly asks, "Why aren't we doing more of that? Why aren't we doing a little bit of an escape or just something to help us?" The answers reveal how deeply many men have internalized the message that their value lies primarily in their productivity.
This conversation takes a fascinating philosophical turn when discussing whether men should even pursue happiness as a goal. While some argue that contentment and achievement should be the focus for men rather than euphoric happiness, others passionately advocate that men deserve joy and must recognize this right. Through personal stories of material success without fulfillment, we explore how purpose—not possessions—ultimately brings satisfaction. One guest shares his journey from having "a hundred thousand dollars in the bank and feeling nothing" to finding profound fulfillment in community work.
Perhaps most importantly, we highlight the irreplaceable value of male connection through shared activities. Whether fishing, gaming, sports, or simply gathering together, these spaces create opportunities for mentorship, advice-sharing, and authentic relationships that men desperately need but rarely prioritize. As we conclude, the message becomes clear—making time for hobbies isn't selfish; it's essential for maintaining sanity and becoming better men, fathers, and partners.
Join our ongoing exploration of modern masculinity and share your thoughts with us at manhoodmatterspodcast@gmail.com. What hobbies have you abandoned, and which ones bring you back to yourself?
Resources: The Way of Men by Jack Donovan https://a.co/d/6OfSyMl
Email us at manhoodmatterspodcast@gmail.com
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Host: StéphaneAlexandre
IG: @stephanealexandreofficial
Music by Liam Weisner
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Why aren't we doing more of that?
Why aren't we doing a littlebit of an escape or just
something to just kind of helpus?
Is it the pressure to beproductive?
Like what is it?
Speaker 2 (00:09):
We're shamed by society for having hobbies,
we're shamed by ourselves forhaving hobbies and we're shamed
by the relationships in ourlives for having hobbies.
Speaker 1 (00:17):
You think so Because I don't know if I've experienced
that you tell yourself.
Speaker 2 (00:20):
You're too busy, you got.
You're too busy, you got toomuch going on.
I'm not going to take the timeto do what I want to do for me.
So you're shaming yourselfbecause you should be doing
something else.
Speaker 3 (00:27):
Some of your meetings could be on the golf course,
could they Not in thisparticular?
Speaker 1 (00:31):
case, not yet.
Once upon a time in America, aman could earn a decent living
wage, take care of home andfamily and still find time and
the financial means for hobbiesor distractions, or even ways to
reset and rejuvenate.
My guests, jamon Elder, ladre,gilbert, nick, pierre and myself
(00:54):
are discussing this so-calledluxury we can no longer afford.
It seems that today we work andgo home.
That's it.
We do our very best in facingour responsibilities, but hardly
, if ever, schedule time forourselves.
I remember being in a very sadrelationship once and a friend
told me that love is overrated.
(01:16):
Just do what you're supposed todo as a man go home and shut up
.
So is chasing happinesssomething we should abandon, or
can we make it part of theequation that completes us as
men?
Do these hobbies ordistractions allow us to
recalibrate our minds, ourhearts?
(01:36):
How important are they in ourdaily lives?
Join us for thisthought-provoking conversation
and, as always, email us yourfeedback at
manhoodmatterspodcast atgmailcom.
Welcome to Manhood Matters.
Let's get to it.
(02:18):
Thank you, gentlemen, forcoming back one more time and
having this conversation with me.
I appreciate you guys beinghere Glad to be back.
Yes, sir, yes sir, no doubt manOnce again you know, and, of
course, newcomer here, youngblood.
Thanks for having me.
This is something that, offline, g and I were talking about and
I said you know, we talk aboutmen's health a lot.
(02:40):
We talk about a lot of thingsthat we need to have, and when
he brought up, something thatseems really simple and really
basic and it's just hobbiesGrowing up and even watching our
parents and their parents menhad hobbies, and that seems to
be something that's just lost.
So what do you guys do?
What's your outlet?
First of all, how important isit to have those things?
(03:03):
Let's start with that Beforeyou talk about what your hobbies
are.
How important is it to havethose things?
Let's start with that Beforeyou talk about what your hobbies
are.
How important is it to evenhave those in your life?
Speaker 3 (03:09):
I think it's paramount.
My outlet used to be beforeCOVID.
I used to travel, so it didn'teven have to be anywhere in
particular, like anywherespecial, just changing scenery.
So a lot of times, from NorthFlorida I'd come up here just
for a weekend just to get out ofthe space.
It, um, it paid like majordividends feeling something
(03:30):
different, getting a differentvibe, and then going back it
just kind of helped re-energizeme.
So I absolutely.
But now what I do, man, listen,I'm a lifelong gamer.
I'm not ashamed of it, nobody'sgonna make me feel bad about it
.
I had an Atari.
I had a Nintendo, I had a SuperNintendo, I had a PS3.
I had an Xbox and now I wentback to PS5.
(03:52):
No, ps4 and PS5.
But yeah, I'm a gamer.
That's what I do, you know hunt, fish and stuff like that
outside.
But my main hobby that I don'thave to do anything but just go
and sit down and hit that buttonSounds like you're keeping
yourself pretty busy.
Speaker 1 (04:08):
What about you G?
Speaker 2 (04:14):
Hobbies are very important.
I think it's a lost thing onthis generation.
I think a lot of guys youngerthan me don't have any hobbies.
Me personally, I do a lot ofhiking, I run a lot of obstacle
races and I also do like combatsports, sports.
So I like to go.
I go to boxing gyms, I'll go to.
I'll go to jujitsu.
I used to wrestle.
So I'll call up my old highschool buddies and a lot of them
coach teams, so I'll go inthere and roll with some of the
young bucks.
(04:34):
So you know, just, you stillneed to do something to compete
and kind of keep the bloodflowing, things like that.
You know, as an older guy, youwant to try and keep those
things going.
Speaker 1 (04:43):
What about you, Nick?
You do anything.
Speaker 4 (04:44):
I guess I hit the gym .
I don't know if that's a hobby.
No, it's not.
Yeah, it's not a hobby.
Everything is like I used to.
I used to hit the boxing gymyears ago and I ran little stuff
like the 5Ks and stuff, butlately, no, I haven't been doing
anything.
Speaker 1 (05:02):
So why do you find that?
Is it time for you as well, oris it just?
Speaker 4 (05:06):
I don't know, I don't want to use time as an excuse,
because people make time forthings, but I guess I just don't
fit it into my life.
Speaker 1 (05:14):
I had this conversation with a few of my
buddies not too long ago where Ihad no drive or no desire.
It was time, but also I had nodesire.
Fact, I hadn't been in the gymfor like over a year and a half.
I used to kind of work out allthe time and I just stopped
working.
I just stopped like I no driveto do anything.
My excuse was a bit different,though.
I'm a lot older.
Let me throw something outthere.
Speaker 2 (05:35):
Yeah, with his generation.
What I think it is with them isthat a lot of times when a man
has hobbies, they're shamed.
They'll shame you for having.
Lot of times when a man hashobbies, they're shamed.
They'll shame you for havinghobbies or hanging out with the
boys, things like that.
So this guy's a gamer rightyeah.
If he says, hey, I play videogames all day, people
immediately think okay, he'syoung, he's lazy, he probably
(05:56):
just sits around smoking weedand pushing buttons, like that's
how they they see it.
You know he goes hunting or hegoes fishing, things like that.
They, they automatically attestlike a stigma to it.
I think, like the youngergeneration, when a man has
hobbies and he hangs out withother men doing those things,
they immediately kind of attacha negative connotation to it.
Speaker 1 (06:16):
Is this one of those things where your generation
calls everything lame?
I don't think they call thingslame, as lame as you go fishing,
maybe like gaming, or somethingmight have like a bad look, but
I don't think there call thingslame.
Speaker 4 (06:24):
That's lame.
You go fishing, maybe, likegaming or something might have
like a bad look, but I don'tthink there's anything wrong
with gaming.
Like I'm pretty sure you likeyou done got your life set up
Like you're comfortable.
You could afford to sit andplay games.
I feel like I can't yet rightnow you know what I'm saying
Like I'll probably feel bad if Isit and play games like that
Cause, like shoot, I need to getmy life together.
So I feel like if I game for anhour or two, it's like damn, I
(06:44):
just wasted that.
I could have you know what I'msaying did something else.
You know what I'm saying.
Speaker 2 (06:48):
There's a stigma and a shame behind it.
Speaker 1 (06:50):
Yeah, I mean I love what you're saying in terms of
the drive and the ambition andhaving that self-reflection to
say, hey, you know, that's great, but at the out, here is the
(07:11):
fact that we need that outlet.
We need that hour or two.
If it's 30 minutes a day foryou, if it's something we get
away and we go do once a week,once a month hell, I'm trying to
get back to where I can golfonce a month.
Again, that's my outlet.
But I think you should be ableto do that and kind of balance
it all out.
Speaker 3 (07:18):
It's actually the exact opposite with me.
So it's not that I haveeverything together, it's not
that I have a bunch of time.
What I do with the game is, asopposed to, like wanting to go
out, spend money and do otherthings, that's something I can
do at home and I'm comfortabledoing it and it allows me to be
able to, you know, like staygrounded, stay focused and not
go out and blow a bunch of moneyand kind of like you know, just
(07:40):
just kind of.
you know, blow off steam withouthaving to go anywhere and do
anything, and it's been a realimportant part of my life.
Speaker 1 (07:46):
Should we, as men, go out of our way to create
something that gives us achannel and an outlet?
Absolutely so what does thatlook like for everyone?
For me, I'm kind of like you,but I haven't gotten there yet
to where.
I'd love to just travel a wholelot.
I prefer experiences overthings.
But one thing I do enjoy, man,is a nice round of golf, and I
(08:09):
used to play a lot when I was inTennessee.
I mean, I was in the league.
I played every weekend,probably played twice a week,
but here I don't think I'veplayed in forever right.
And every time I drive by acourse I'm in the car all day
long.
As you know, for what I do forwork, I'm going from appointment
to appointment and I'm alwaysdriving by a golf course, and
every time I drive by one I'mslowing down, I'm looking, I'm
(08:32):
all feeling sad.
I'm looking at one guy playinga hole.
I'm like, ah, he chunked thatball.
So it's something that I thinkthat I need so much.
Or even just getting togetherwith the boys to just like
hanging out, going to someone'syard, throwing something on the
grill, just chilling, smoking acigar, whatever.
It's just something I thinkthat is so imperative, something
that we need in our lives andwe just I think that it's not
(08:54):
the kind of thing that you canafford not to have for our own
sanity.
Do you think there's levels tohobbies?
Speaker 2 (09:00):
I'm not sure what you mean by that, but I'm going to
say that I mean like there'ssome healthy masculine hobbies
that men should have, right.
And then there's other hobbiesthat are their hobbies, but
they're potentially destructive.
Sure, yeah, so I like to gohunt or I like to go fish.
Those are hobbies, right.
Yeah, I want to play around thegolf all the time.
I want to play video games allthe time.
(09:22):
Those are potentiallydestructive.
I want to play video games allthe time.
Those are potentiallydestructive.
Why do you say that?
I mean, anything in excess isdestructive, right?
Okay, yeah, and you knowimmediately, certain things have
like a negative connotation tothem and some other things may
not, you know.
So I travel too much.
Anything in excess is bad, yeah, so are there levels to hobbies
?
Speaker 1 (09:39):
I guess.
So I guess it's called a hobbyfor a reason.
Don't let it become anobsession or more of a habit
right when it's like it needs tohappen or an addiction.
As much as I love to beaddicted to golf, I'm not I mean
, obviously.
Speaker 2 (09:51):
In order to decompress, though, you need to
get away right?
That's exactly what I'm saying,so it can become an obsession.
Speaker 1 (09:56):
I have balance, even though I do have an obsession,
do you?
Speaker 3 (10:09):
Like being real, bro, because I'm sounds like you're,
because, bro, I'm just beyondwith you, bro, like when I hear
you, I hear you tell you work,work, work, work.
Speaker 1 (10:12):
You're right.
So I miss folk and you alwayssay you have balance.
I'm kind of like wait a minute.
I think we kind of need to have.
So what, what I meant was in mydesire and what I want to do
right meaning that I will neverlet it get out of hand to where?
Oh yeah, you know, I go golf somuch that I'm not even going to
my appointments.
I'm not working, I'm spendingtoo much money.
Speaker 3 (10:25):
Unless you become the club pro right.
Speaker 1 (10:28):
And that's not happening right.
So you know, and that's justreality.
You don't decide at 50.
You're going to be a pro andthen do it.
But in that sense you're right.
I don't have that balance thatI'd like to have, but I do have
that balance in terms of, likemaking the decision for me to
say, yeah, I need to golf once aweek, and if I don't, I don't.
I smoke cigars.
I'm like you, I'll go six,seven, eight months without
(10:51):
smoking a single cigar, cause AI, to your point, should find
time to at least go sit on mydeck, pull out a cigar and just
breathe, just relax.
I don't even get to do thatShit.
I bought this golf simulatorthing that I can just hit off my
deck.
It's been in a box for sixmonths.
I haven't even taken it out ofthe box.
So I need to be able to dothese things.
But I don't find time.
(11:12):
But to answer your question, Iknow for me that it would never
get to a point where it'sdestructive or it's taking time
away from family or anythinglike that.
But we do need to create timefor ourselves, otherwise we
implode.
Speaker 2 (11:26):
Should we sacrifice time with our family or doing
other things for ourselves, forour hobbies?
Speaker 1 (11:29):
I don't think it's a sacrifice.
I think they should be able tomake time for it, and I don't
know that I'm qualified to giveadvice.
I can only tell what I'm doing.
So for me, my responsibilitiesfor my household and my family
come first.
So the hobbies are beingsacrificed.
When I get to where I need toget to, I'm headed back to that.
I've had it at one point, lostit, but I'm headed back to that.
(11:51):
But once I get there again, Iknow for a fact that first of
all, I enjoy spending time withmy wife.
It's not a sacrifice.
We enjoy the same things.
We have a good time together.
She's gone to the golf course.
She doesn't play golf, butshe'll go there and wear the hat
and be cute and drink.
That's perfectly fine with me.
I love playing soccer.
I want to go back to playing ina league once a week or
whatever.
It is one evening, becauseusually those guys play at night
(12:12):
again.
Speaker 3 (12:13):
These are things that I can go do, but never at the
expense of spending time with myfamily first, right one of the
um things I wanted to ask g,because I think you brought it
up and and if I'm getting ahead,you always let me know I'm
getting ahead of myself.
No worries If I'm getting aheadof myself.
So what's the balance betweenhaving an outlet and escapism?
That's a great question Becausefor me, when I talked about
(12:36):
travel a lot of times like I wasusing travel, it was a hobby,
but it became like let me, letme escape this reality for a
while and get out of thisenvironment.
But you know, like they alwayssay, like you know, people say
you drink or you get intoxicated, your problems are going to be
there when you get back.
So I had to, you know, try tofigure out a way to like OK, let
(12:58):
me not, you know, spend so muchtime away that I'm not actually
like dealing with the thingsthat I need to.
So that's why I just kind ofwanted to pose that question to
you guys, like even you, g, orSteph, or Nick.
Speaker 2 (13:09):
To me that's an interesting question.
But my personal philosophy as aman I don't believe I should be
happy.
I think men that focus on beinghappy all the time that's not
not what a man's supposed to be,you know, know, you shouldn't
be in a continuous state ofunhappiness and or fear, but you
should relatively be living inlike a state of contentment they
(13:31):
talk to.
That appears, alan bro, youshouldn't be happy.
I know, like a happy man isweird.
It's weird happy man is weirdyes, if you're around a man,
he's just always focused onbeing happy.
People that focus on beinghappy.
That's how you get into drugsand alcohol and and women and
sex and all that type of stuff.
You start getting intodegenerate stuff, trying to
focus on being happy.
Okay, no, you should just notbe in pain and like a continuous
(13:53):
state of of disease.
Speaker 3 (13:55):
You know, gee, I'm concerned.
What'sfree, footloose, noresponsibility like I'm not
holding or ownership?
Is that what you're saying?
Speaker 2 (14:14):
I'm not saying that you shouldn't experience some
fleeting moments of happiness?
Right, right, you should.
You should be able to playbasketball with your son and and
really be happy in that moment.
You should enjoy that.
But you shouldn't spend yourlife seeking to just be happy,
right?
Like women say, I just want tobe happy.
Men shouldn't say that, youknow.
Speaker 3 (14:32):
Really Relating to the Constitution life, liberty
and pursuit of happiness.
Speaker 2 (14:35):
And the pursuit of happiness right you should be
pursuing happiness, but youshouldn't sit there and be happy
all the time.
Speaker 1 (14:42):
Never reach it Wow.
Speaker 2 (14:45):
Conquest, never reaching, happy all the time,
never reaching wow.
But I'm interested in whatcontinuous?
For me, conquest is continuous.
You should never get to a pointwhere you're just happy and
content and that's just the wayit is.
That's not how life's supposedto be as a man.
Women are supposed to focus onhappiness.
Children are supposed to havefocus on happiness.
Men we should focus on beingproud of ourselves and
achievement and trying toaccomplish things you know
that's not that's.
And if you need a, little bit ofstepping back to recharge some
(15:05):
escapism, like you said.
That's okay, but you shouldn'tfocus on I need to do this to be
happy.
I don't believe that's howyou're supposed to live that's a
very, very interesting take onit think about what I'm saying
when you hear a man say I justwant to be happy I'm gonna do
whatever it takes to be happy,don't?
You think that's strange?
Speaker 1 (15:25):
Sure Doesn't that sound weird.
I've never heard that by theway Okay.
Speaker 2 (15:28):
You've never seen a man say that.
Speaker 1 (15:29):
Nobody I know.
Yeah, I mean.
I don't think there's a manthat I know personally that I'd
be in conversation with, that'dbe like I just want to be happy.
I don't know.
For some say what I mean.
Right, maybe it's because wedon't open up to each other
enough that we don't say that,but also it's because I've never
heard that as a completesentence.
There's more to it.
(15:49):
They'll say here's what I needin order for me to be happy.
It's not.
I just want to be happy as aconcept and it's just wide open.
So, for instance, I want moneyto be out of the way.
I want to have enough that Idon't have to think about it
anymore.
I want to make sure that I havemy health, the people that are
closest to me wife and kidsthey're healthy.
I heard Jim Rohn say this onceand I love that.
(16:15):
He says I want to build afinancial armor around my family
that is unbreakable.
Now, you don't need a milliondollars a month to do that.
You can do that verycomfortably on 20 grand a month.
Some people barely crack, youknow, 40, 50 a year.
You could do really, reallywell, depending on where you
live in the country, right With20,000, 30,000 and do extremely
well where you're not thinkingabout money, especially if it's
passive.
You're not having to go work 80hours a week for it.
So I want to be able to do whatI want to do with whomever I
(16:38):
want, whenever I want.
Speaker 2 (16:45):
Let's.
So let's unpack what you justsaid, right?
You said hey, in order to behappy, I need my health.
Relatively speaking, for themost part you're in decent
health, right.
You can function, you can moveand everything.
You're good, right, so you haveyour health.
Can I correct something?
Go?
Speaker 1 (16:54):
ahead and if I said it I want to correct it.
I didn't say in order for me tobe happy, I need anything
external.
What I said, if we're going totalk about being happy, at least
here in this incarnation not todive into the spiritual, but I
will say I don't need anythingoutside of me to be happy.
But if we're going to talkabout the happiness in the sense
that we're speaking of it hereon this planet, living as human
(17:14):
beings, I have certain thingsthat I would chase in order for
me to be content, happy and bein a place where I'm satisfied.
I'm not going to chase forever,chase forever, satisfied and
content.
There's okay, there's aconquest.
So I disagree with you on onething fundamentally right when
you said the joy or thehappiness itself is in the
pursuit.
I get that when I'm trying toachieve something, maybe if I
(17:36):
want to be a pro athlete, maybeif I'm trying to be successful
in business or anything likethat.
But in terms of how I live, ifI could just pay all my bills
off and all I have to pay istaxes on my property, I have
passive income coming in.
I have my health, my wife hasher health, I'm not battling.
So the health is important tome because that's the one thing
I really can't control.
I could control it to a certaindegree, but, yeah, I can't.
Speaker 2 (17:56):
But what I'm saying is you're describing happiness
and contentment.
You're not describing happiness.
People that want to be happy,like I said, they get into
things trying to feel that allthe time right, feeling content
and okay, everything's good,nothing's nothing catastrophic
is happening.
That's different than I.
Want to be happy all the time.
You know you're constantlychasing a high when you're
(18:18):
looking for happiness is thatwhat we're saying, though?
Speaker 1 (18:19):
to have that, those endorphins and yeah, that's not
what we're saying.
Speaker 2 (18:23):
I don't think that's what I'm saying I'm saying, oh
yeah, okay, you shouldn't bechasing happiness.
I mean, it's okay to be content, it's okay to be good with what
you have, actually focusing ontrying to be happy all the time
in a state of euphoric bliss.
Yeah, well, no everything'sincredible, everything's
interesting and exciting andit's yeah, that's a weirdo.
That's that's a weirdo.
Yes, it'll be like that, but,yes, a weirdo, don't want to be
(18:44):
like that.
Speaker 3 (18:44):
But what you just wrote down, brother, what you
just said, right, I'm going topiggyback off of that.
I think that more men, butespecially black men, need to
get in the space of.
We deserve to be happy man.
And it's not like, it's not achore, it's not an indictment
(19:06):
and it a knock on us as men forwanting to be happy, for us to
be able to have the basicaccoutrements of life a roof
over our head, clothes to go onour backs, food on our table,
our health, our family doingwell.
You can put a smile on yourface because of that.
For example, I'm watching youinteract with your daughter here
(19:30):
, right In this space.
Your daughter, who was onceyour little baby, was sitting
across from you and you'repodcasting and she's helping you
and you know she's a part thathas to make you happy.
It's euphoric.
You get what I'm saying.
Or even looking out the windowand seeing your wife out there,
or maybe some of your relativesout there in the yard doing what
she wants to do right, tryingto get your two salads Right.
(19:52):
Get your two salads.
All this for two salads, right.
So what I'm saying is like bro,like, yes, someone who wants to
be like jovial and just I meanjust like carefree fancy foot
and carefree like all the timeright.
I think that yes, because Ithink even in the Godfather I
think he's talking to Michael hesays that you can never be
(20:14):
careless.
Men can't be careless.
Women and children can becareless, but not men, and I've
always taken that.
You know we can't let ourguards down and let things go
undone, but I think, as much aswe can, we need to try to find a
way to carve out a space in ourlives that exudes our happiness
.
Speaker 1 (20:35):
Well, it's because of that tension, it's what you
just said.
It's because of that tension.
This is why we need that space.
This is why we need to escapeevery once in a while, because
there's always tension, like youjust said.
I look out the window.
I see my wife.
Thank God I'm not over thereworking on the garden right now.
But that makes me happy.
I watch my kids and I'm veryjoyful in these moments and I
(20:55):
can live like this forever.
But, to your point, there'salways a level of vigilance that
we are still kind of watchingbecause we have to Right.
It's kind of like that sheepdogwho was to watch the flock to
make sure nothing's coming toharm any of that.
Speaker 2 (21:10):
And I'm not saying you're not going to have those
moments of happiness.
You're going to experiencehappiness over the course of
your life.
But trying to consistently livein that state that's my point
you shouldn't try and live inthat state.
Speaker 3 (21:19):
But G, I want to share something with you, man,
because I like that you'reexpounding on your point.
I want to share this with youguys man, there was one time I
was living in the morning and myhardest decision was what I was
(21:41):
going to drive that day rightand a couple hundred thousand
dollars in the bank, and I wasmiserable.
Like I was miserable.
I remember I went to the bankone day and I put a check for a
hundred thousand dollars in thebank and I felt nothing.
I wouldn't feel happy, I didn'tfeel sad, I didn't feel a car,
I felt nothing.
And so I think that, like whenwe talk about escapism, I had a
(22:01):
deeper problem that wasmanifesting itself, it was
festering with me that caused meto be in that state and I had
to go unpack a lot of things andfigure out what was going on,
how you get everything in life.
Like when you said, right, I had, and you and I have a lot of
similar values.
I see we have a lot of similarvalues.
I had all that and I wasmiserable, but it took, like to
(22:23):
me and my spiritual journey, godtaking away all of that living
in a room, sometimes living inmy car, not having money in my
pocket, having to go into hotelsto eat continental breakfast
and then making another plate totake with me to eat later that
day, right To understand how toappreciate when I have certain
things, and because I was ableto develop that level of
(22:46):
appreciation, that's where myhappiness came in, because I
realized I didn't need, I don'tneed all of these things to be
happy.
I just need these basic things,along with, like those things
that you said, to truly be happy.
Speaker 1 (22:59):
So I love that you said that and I actually thought
about this, because if you hadasked me 15, 20 years ago what
would make me happy, I didn'tknow what it was Right, you know
.
First of all, I am.
Next step for me really is thatfinancial armor security.
Yeah, it's just getting towhere you're creating something
that cannot be taken or rippedaway from you, right, and you
(23:20):
have the security for yourfamily, and I want to be able to
spend a lot of time with myfamily, right, which means I
don't be trading time for moneyanymore.
I don't want to be working 80hours, 90 hours a week, and to
not see them to provide thatright, right, so I'm working on
some other things right nowbehind the scenes where I can
create that security for themand work in 20 hours a week.
Speaker 2 (23:39):
Is that happiness for you, or is that happiness for
them?
Speaker 1 (23:42):
So I don't know, I think me and my wife talk enough
, that I think we have the same.
We talk enough about thesethings.
Speaker 2 (23:48):
Like I said when we met it's making you happy
because you feel like you'reproviding for your family and
they'll be okay about thesethings.
Like I said when we met, it'smaking you happy because you
feel like you're providing foryour family and they'll be okay.
It's like Christmas For me.
You know, you got my kids, Igot my kids, my cousins, my
grandchildren, stuff like thataround handing out presents to
everybody.
The joy is in the giving foryou, I get socks you know,
everybody around me is happy.
Speaker 1 (24:09):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (24:10):
Right, and as soon as all the presents are done being
wrapped and all that stuff, allthe presents are opened and
everything I'm ready to go backto work.
You know, like I was happy inthat moment, but I'm ready to
move on from this moment.
I don't live in happiness, Idon't live in that blissful
state.
Everybody around me is content,happy, like I don't think
you're supposed to be happy,happy all the time.
Speaker 1 (24:30):
I can give an opinion , but I'm not qualified to
dissect it any further than that.
I can tell you that I believethat there is a point.
Once I checked certain boxeschecked a few already, I've got
a few more to check I can be inthat state.
I'm not going to say that I'mgoing to live in that state
permanently, but overall, if youlook at the overall person,
(24:50):
when we say, is someone happy,is someone miserable?
Miserable people have happymoments.
Right, you have people who areabsolutely the worst.
They're always miserable,everything's always negative,
but yet they have the experiencehappy moments.
But overall that's themiserable bastard.
Right there, right.
So I want to be the opposite.
I want to be a person whoexperiences sadness, ups and
downs, sickness and everythingelse.
(25:11):
Sure, sure, but overall, whenyou look at my life, I am a
happy person who's working on afew extra things, and maybe it's
because I'm older to where Iknow exactly what it takes to
get me there.
Speaker 4 (25:21):
So how do you prepare yourself or how can you avoid
being miserable once you get tothat point of like success or
close to it or something likehow you had everything and you
was miserable.
So if you could go back, do youthink there was a way to avoid
feeling like that while havingall that stuff?
Speaker 3 (25:40):
Yes, sir, yes, sir, and thank you for that question,
because that is a question thatI had to answer within myself.
That, I believe, has allowed meto now be happy.
And that question was why am Idoing what I'm doing?
I was 20 years old.
I was on my way to class.
I remember this plainest dayand it was like cold in
(26:01):
tallahassee, like.
I don't know if y'all been intallahassee, but tallahassee
cold is a different type of cold.
Anybody listening to this hasbeen in tallahassee.
That tallahassee cold isdifferent.
This spring is coldtallahasseallahassee.
Speaker 1 (26:11):
Florida, florida, that's where we got laughing.
You're not in Florida, right?
Speaker 3 (26:14):
Yeah, yeah.
But listen, man, I'm tellingyou man.
Speaker 2 (26:18):
It's next to the water, so it gets cold, is that?
Speaker 3 (26:20):
why?
But hey, listen, at that point,I had not.
I grew up in New York, dude.
That's what we're talking about, man, listen, I see what you
mean, coming from Florida.
Speaker 1 (26:31):
Right, and then you were in.
Speaker 3 (26:32):
Tallahassee.
So I was on my way to class onemorning and I was like man,
fuck this man, I'm about to goto Waffle House get me some eat.
I'm about to go get back in thebed, right.
And then everybody like here'sthe class.
And I saw one at that time,like I'm gonna get my degree
because this is what I want.
(26:52):
Um, I got a chance to work withum attorney Benjamin Crump.
Man, I saw the first day Iworked with him.
I saw what his watch was like,I saw what kind of car he was
driving, I saw what kind of suithe was wearing.
I just saw all these things andI thought like man, that's what
I want.
Like I saw the way the house hehad, I saw the wife, I mean all
the things that he had.
I was like these are the thingsthat I want.
And I went and I pursued those.
(27:13):
Like Willie Gary, have you everseen that movie?
The Burial with Jamie Foxx wasabout Willie Gary, very
successful lawyer down South.
Um, but I, these are the thingsthat I thought I wanted.
So I just chased this stuff.
Like I want 757,.
Like him, I want the wings ofjustice.
I want, you know, these things,this is what I want.
This is happiness for me, andwhat I wound up realizing is man
(27:34):
on my way to these things as alawyer, chasing ambulances is
what.
That's just not what makes mehappy, right.
So fast forward to today.
After all that's over and nowall the dust is cleared and
everything.
Here I am in this new phase.
You know, after the ashes andeverything, man, I get up every
day and I'm focused on healthequity outcomes for
(27:56):
African-American males in ourcommunity.
I can work on that all day, allnight, whether I get paid or
don't get paid.
And I'm more fulfilled than whenI've gone to court and gotten a
jury verdict, because I'd neverlost a jury trial murder cases,
all that stuff.
I feel more fulfilled in doingthat.
I barbershop talk.
I was more fulfilled that daywhen I walked out of that
(28:17):
barbershop talk than I ever feltfulfilled walking out of a
courtroom.
Wow, and that's real purpose.
Like I said, you being 27,you're in that point now where
you're about to really start tofigure out who and what you are
as a man and what makes youreally truly happy and what your
life pursuits need to be.
So have grace with yourself,but always if you're pursuing
purpose.
When the money comes, it's anadded bonus because you love
(28:40):
what you do.
Speaker 1 (28:41):
But when you're doing something strictly for money,
man, you get the money and thenyou still feel miserable because
the money doesn't fix what'sbroken inside you and the issues
that you already have.
Yes, sir you, what's brokeninside you and the issues that
you already have?
Yes, sir, you know one of myfavorite movies of all time
avengers.
They ask thanos, okay, you'regonna do this you're gonna get
(29:02):
the stones.
Speaker 2 (29:02):
You're gonna destroy half the universe.
And then what he goes?
I'm gonna look on on onto agrateful universe or something.
Speaker 1 (29:05):
Yeah, he goes then I can retire in my little cabin,
yeah, grow my plants and watchthe sunrise on a grateful
universe.
If you ask me, what's going tomake me happy is to sit around a
campfire, watch my kids, watchmy grandkids.
My wife and we're cooking in avery modest home, plenty of land
, and be able to just enjoythose moments.
(29:26):
Take my guitar, hang around thecampfire, maybe learn how to
ride a horse, go down the Creekand fish a little.
Speaker 2 (29:32):
Do you think your wife would love that man?
Speaker 1 (29:39):
Yes, yes, Because that man is who she has now.
We're just trying to get tothese things.
That man is who she has now.
We're clear on that.
I know what the direction isbecause I know what I want.
She and I talked about what wewant as the end goal.
Are we going to travel?
Sure, Am I going to still run abusiness?
Absolutely.
I'm not going to sit around anddo nothing but that $50 million
in a bank account.
We're not going to sit aroundand be useless.
That's the way I would look atit.
(29:59):
Still, purpose my drive andmotivation, which is one of the
reasons I considered joining the100 Black Men, is because my
true calling is to give andmentor young men.
I'm writing a book.
I'm going to put that out.
To give and mentor a young man.
I'm writing a book.
I'm going to put that out.
My core audience is young menfrom the age of 11 years old to
about 20, 25 years old.
Why?
Because I want to focus onthese gentlemen.
(30:20):
I want to help them understandthat I want to pull the veil so
they can see what's behind thecurtain, because there are
opportunities I never thoughtabout doing, from
entrepreneurship to sales andthings of the sort.
I want to basically show themthis and I want to go to the
worst parts of the country, theinner cities, and these kids
have there's only one dream forthem, and hopefully they make it
in sports.
(30:40):
Otherwise they're screwedbecause they're certainly not
chasing academics the way theyshould, and I want to show them
some alternatives.
So I do have those desires, butI'll enjoy doing that.
I'll do it for free.
This podcast, I've had someoneask me when I was first started
doing it.
Before I even started, I say,hey, I'm going to do a podcast
and one of the main reasons fordoing is because I think we come
on this platform and we sitdown and we happen to be more
(31:00):
vulnerable.
I think it's therapeutic for alot of us.
I've had people sit here andcry.
I've myself had shed some tears.
We have these conversations andthe question I was asked by a
buddy who still doesn't supportthe show, but basically, hey,
how are you going to monetizethis?
I said if I make money, I makemoney, If I don't, I don't.
He goes.
Well, if you don't make moneyin a year, are you going to keep
(31:22):
doing it?
My answer was yeah, I enjoydoing this.
Dude, I want to do this.
I've had people come throughand they were like, for the most
part, everyone who leaves here.
They were like man.
I'm grateful that I had thisconversation.
This helped me, help put a newspin on things.
I got some things out of mysystem that so would I still do
that without getting a singledime out of it?
Absolutely.
I'd keep going and do it forfree until my soul desire is not
(31:42):
to do it anymore and then I'dstop.
What I don't want to do is be aslave to working 80 hours a
week for somebody else's companyand chasing them.
I have my own company.
I'm working on building now andonce it's done, 90% of what I
do is going to be passive.
Speaker 2 (31:57):
Back to what he was saying about success.
I think what you guys said asfar as like finding a purpose
behind it A lot of young mendon't know how to find a purpose
, trying to find what they'resupposed to be doing.
But I would say, until you findthat purpose, you should just
chase achievement.
People say I want to besuccessful, but they can't
really define success.
I would pick things you want toachieve.
You want to get your license soyou can start driving trucks.
(32:20):
You want to make a certainamount of money a year.
I would focus on achievingthose things and in that you'll
find your purpose.
You'll find what makes yousuccessful.
Speaker 1 (32:29):
I would have to agree with that.
Yep, yeah.
Speaker 2 (32:31):
Those are all like nebulous terms.
I want, I want to find mypurpose, I want to find success.
Like those are like nebulous,all encompassing terms.
Speaker 3 (32:40):
And also the commonality of life.
All of us, all of us came froma woman and all of us are going
to return to the groundeventually.
So everything in between thatright is up to us to find, like,
where, which way we go.
But that commonality of wherewe start and where we end lets
us know that we have a beginning, a finite period of time in
(33:03):
which we're going to exist, andwe have an ending, and so, when
we think about it in those terms, that's how it, when people say
success is a journey and not adestination, this is the most,
uh, like, just apt that you'regoing to be as a, as a man,
given all that you have, towardsbeing the best version of
yourself.
And in that, take time, dothings that 20 year man.
(33:24):
What do 20 year olds do now?
Do things that 20 year old man.
What do 20 year olds do now?
Do things that 20 year olds dowhile you're still in your 20s,
because before you know it,you'll be 35 and you'll be like,
where did my 20s go?
And then you'll be having your40th birthday party.
So, like we talk about hobbies,don't feel ashamed, don't be in
a rush, take your time andenjoy as you're going to fulfill
(33:46):
your purpose, man.
Speaker 1 (33:54):
But, like you said, like definitely reach for the
stars, man, get you some hobbies.
So, speaking of get you somehobbies, and since we're
circling back to that, whyaren't we doing more of that?
Why aren't we doing a littlebit of an escape or just
something to just kind of helpus?
I call it keeping my sanity,you know, I don't just go
fucking blow up on somebody.
Is it the pressure to beproductive?
Like what is it?
Speaker 2 (34:10):
We're shamed by society for having hobbies.
We're shamed by ourselves forhaving hobbies and we're shamed
by our the relationships in ourlives for having hobbies, you
know.
Speaker 1 (34:20):
You think so Because I don't know if I've experienced
that.
I mean, I know what you'resaying, but I guess maybe you
tell yourself you're too busy.
Speaker 2 (34:26):
You got too much going on.
I'm not going to take the timeto do what I want to do for me,
right?
So you're shaming yourselfbecause you should be doing
something else.
You could be more productivedoing something else.
You shame yourself.
Speaker 3 (34:37):
Some of your meetings could be on the golf course,
could they no?
Speaker 1 (34:42):
Not in this particular case, not yet.
Okay, I got you, but I see whatyou're saying.
I guess it's when I hear theword shame there's a parallel to
am I embarrassed about thisparticular thing?
But I know what you're sayingnow.
So I appreciate you clarifyingbecause, you're right, I'm
judging myself very harshly.
Speaker 3 (34:58):
You know a goat conversation that we had in the
barbershop about Kobe andMichael LeBron and we talked
about Kobe and that mamamentality man, about how he just
worked, he just worked, he justworked.
And I always I go back to this.
I remember that story when theywere in that the Redeem team,
when they were out in Vegas, howLeBron and those guys were
coming home from the club atfour o'clock in the morning and
(35:20):
Kobe was in the lobby with hisgym shoes and his bag ready to
go to the gym to get to work.
And it's like truly achievewhat it is that you want, Like
you want that it's going to takethat level of sacrifice, Right.
But even if you ask Kobe, evenif you ask Michael, I guarantee
you, man, as much success asthey had.
I guarantee they would go backand say, man, there were times
(35:41):
that I would have taken a break.
Know he had that much time left.
Would he have not taken moretime with his family and more
time with his daughters?
Or I think he's a prime exampleof someone who sacrificed a
tremendous deal to be great andthen the moving finger decided
that he was going to leave earthbefore any of us thought that
(36:04):
he was supposed to, and nowthat's time he can't get back
and we'll ask Colby now if wecould Colby was all that worth
it?
Would he still give the sameanswer that yes, five rings, and
me being a great basketballplayer and arguably the greatest
of all time was that worth allthe sacrifice you made when you
left this earth?
Speaker 1 (36:23):
I think that'd be a question that I'd love to hear
the answer to, if we somehowcould you know it's interesting
about everything you just said,we talk about just like how much
time we have left.
Do take time for your family,do take time for yourself, et
cetera.
And when I think about thatcause I have contemplated my own
mortality at times more, as oflate, only because of how many
people that I've, you know,starting to lose yeah, you're
(36:44):
starting to lose some people,and you know some of them are
younger than I am.
So then I'm just like I thinkabout that.
You know, my only concern, mybiggest fear, is not man, I need
to take more time for me.
It does the opposite.
So what it does for me?
It tells me to go faster andharder and do more, because I'm
not comfortable yet with wheremy family is.
(37:05):
So if I leave them, I haven'tdone enough.
So instead of me saying, oh, Ineed a break because I don't
want to croak, I leave them, Ihaven't done enough.
So instead of me saying, oh, Ineed a break because I don't
want to croak, I'm going, shit,I need to go harder until I get
to where I feel that they'reokay, then I can take my foot
off the gas.
But do you see the fallacy inthat?
Of course I do.
That's what I'm saying.
That's my biggest fear and Iunderstand how.
You know how warped thatmentality is, that mindset is.
Speaker 2 (37:30):
Can you?
Speaker 1 (37:31):
you know how warped that mentality is, that mindset
is, can you?
Speaker 2 (37:33):
find some productivity in your hobbies.
I used to be able to do that.
Let's say, we go to a golfcourse you, me, we, we nick,
everybody, we all, we all stepoff to the golf course.
Right, we could be on the golfcourse hitting balls, having
great conversation, talkingabout business, talking about
our families, talking aboutparenting all these same
conversations.
But out on the golf course,decompressing, having that good
time, and you're getting valueout of that, those conversations
(37:53):
.
You're getting value out ofthat decompression, that time
away.
Speaker 3 (37:56):
You're telling us bring you, I'm going to go play
golf with you guys, but you guysgot to bring me 20 lead, 20 hot
leads, that when I leave thisgolf course, I can call them all
and they'll listen to.
You know what it is that I haveto say.
Speaker 2 (38:08):
Or I give you some advice on how to expand the
podcast, or you give him someadvice on how to be a better
lawyer.
There's value in thatcamaraderie and interacting and
those hobbies together, but wenever take the time to do that
because, like I said, we shameourselves and we're shamed by
society for coming togetherhaving those moments.
Speaker 1 (38:26):
Very good point.
Yeah, I could see how thatwould be beneficial.
Speaker 2 (38:29):
We used to do that, like when we used to go on like
we were.
We was in a tribe, we would gohunting, we would knock down an
antelope or a Buffalo orwhatever and we'd sit around a
fire at night and we'd talkabout parenting, we'd talk about
our relationships with ourwives and spouses before we
dragged the Buffalo back to theplan.
Yeah, we would have thosemoments, we'd have that get
together.
We don't do that no more.
Speaker 3 (38:48):
For me, being a part of a fraternity, and there are
times where I won't go aroundthe bros for months because,
like you said, I don't feel likeI'm performing up to the level
or I don't feel like that mygoals and the things that I'm
doing.
I deserve that time to be ableto go hang out with the bros
like that.
But every time I go around themI feel energized.
Every time it's not been onetime I've gone around them and
(39:10):
I've not been poured back intoit.
So I feel like we have to takeadvantage of what we have.
Some people do church or somepeople do the mentoring Like
when we go to our mentoringsessions.
I'm always made better forgoing to our mentoring sessions
Me and the kids.
They do more for me than I dofor them.
Speaker 1 (39:27):
I even used to use it as a reward, a metric.
So for me, when I was in alarmsales, I would say until I get a
certain amount in one day, Idon't get to play golf.
You know, I used to do thingslike that and that would push me
really, get me going.
It worked but it would drive meinsane because you know, as you
(39:47):
could imagine, you know there'smany, many days that I got to
six and I didn't get to sevenand, by the way, the average is
one.
It's a way to kind of driveourselves more and more and more
, but I'm not sure that the tollthat it takes on us, it's worth
it.
Speaker 3 (40:13):
You remember that tall tale that we have that folk
hero, john Henry, where hedecided that he was going to go
up against the steel drivingmachine.
He wanted to prove.
You know what I'm talking about?
Still, no, so, uh, john Henry,the steel driving John here, the
steel driving man.
No.
So, when they were laying therailroads, they used to the
means to go out and drive thespikes, drive the spikes, drive
the spikes.
And there was this one man,john Henry.
He was like 10 times the manright and he just drive a spike
with one swoop.
It was boom is.
Speaker 4 (40:27):
Is this a real story?
Speaker 3 (40:28):
No, it's a folk story .
Okay, so they came up with asteel driving machine and a
steel driving machine.
They were bragging about it,like how efficient it was and
how it could replace everybodyon the railroad right.
And so John Henry said, well, Iguarantee you, you know, you
set a time limit, I'll go upagainst the machine and I'll
prove that a man has more heartand can do more than a machine.
So he goes up against themachine and they're working on
(40:49):
the machine, oiling the machinedown, making sure it's whatever,
and John Henry's just going,he's just going, he's just going
, he's going.
And at the end they look andthey say, well, the machine lays
, I'm just throwing it out there.
They laid three miles of track.
John Henry laid three miles anda quarter of track, but then
John Henry's, over there on theside, passed out with a heart
attack.
He died, he died, he killedhimself to prove that he was
(41:11):
better than the machine.
And like that's a folk storythat we're told as kids, Pace
yourself.
That's what.
That's what I got out of it.
Speaker 1 (41:17):
Gotcha, gotcha.
Speaker 3 (41:18):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (41:18):
To kind of wrap it up , it's a three part question
what hobbies do you have ifyou've neglected those hobbies
for a little while, and whatwould you recommend to people?
Speaker 3 (41:29):
So with me.
I game now, but I miss huntingand fishing man.
And when I say hunting, I'm nottalking about like safari God,
I'm talking about man just goingthrough the woods.
You're shooting a deer no witha 410 and shoot some squirrels
out of trees Like that's.
To me, that's enough, I don'tneed to go any deeper than that.
And also fishing man.
Fishing has been such a hugepart of my family and our
(41:52):
history and our culture, who weare.
I want to actually pass thatdown to my son, but me, being up
here in Atlanta, I don't get achance to really do that.
When I go back home I'm in andout.
So at some point I want to beable to get my boat back and be
able to take my son out thereand my daughter and show them
how to fish and show them allthe things that my parents
taught me.
So that's something I reallywant to get back to make a nice
(42:15):
week out of it, yeah, week, yeah, yeah, yeah, man, you know
vacation yeah, it's like thattype.
Speaker 1 (42:20):
I want to get with you one day and learn how to
fish.
That's cool.
Never fished.
Let me know when you're ready.
Speaker 3 (42:25):
I know I know you're laughing right now.
Hey, I ain't going to bait yourhook and I ain't going to take
your fish off, but I woulddefinitely.
Speaker 1 (42:31):
Well, I just need to know what I'm doing, just so you
know what?
Speaker 4 (42:33):
do I I got you, so it's not something I've.
I said I want to learn too.
I heard it was real liketherapeutic and stuff, but I've
never been Crazy.
Speaker 1 (42:41):
Yeah, he's like no one showed you this.
I'm like, no, I've never gonefishing.
Keep in mind where I grew upagain New York City.
It's not something we did.
Now, obviously, if you wantedto make time for it, you could
there's plenty of water outthere but never done it.
So yeah, yeah, I definitelyrecommend fishing.
All right, what about you?
G?
Speaker 2 (42:58):
I still go out obstacle racing and that's an
opportunity to get together witha bunch of other guys.
You can compete against them,it against you, you have a good
laugh and talk about it.
My main thing as far as hobbiesgo is you should do hobbies
that help you to interact and besocial with people and also
give you the opportunity to runideas by other men Like.
I think you should have malehobbies.
(43:19):
You know, I don't think thereshould be a lot of women around.
As far as the hobbies go, itshouldn't be something that
necessarily that your familyparticipates in.
It should just be somethingthat you can do with you and
your boys and you can step backand get that advice, that
recharge, that information thatyou want from other men, from
what they're going through.
You can talk about it, stufflike that.
I think hobbies is more of acommunal social thing for men.
(43:42):
What my point is and I don'teven think it necessarily needs
to be anything extravagant, itdoesn't have to be anything
crazy, something expensive oranything like that.
It's just an opportunity to gettogether, just sitting around
on the deck, fishing, have youever read the book the Way of
Men?
I have not.
Speaker 4 (43:55):
I feel like you would like it Real quick.
What's it about Basically?
It talks about manhood, likeour ancestry, like things that
are just in our DNA.
It kind of talks about it'sokay being a man Now.
It's okay being a man now thisgeneration, or just how it's
been.
They kind of make masculinitytoxic in a way.
Men are afraid to be real men.
Yeah, and it's all right to bea man, like it's in your dna.
Speaker 2 (44:17):
Yeah, back then that's what you are.
Yeah, is it the way of thesuperior man?
Speaker 4 (44:21):
or is it?
No, no, I know that book, butit's called the way of men.
Speaker 2 (44:24):
Yeah, way of men, I've never heard that okay what
about yourself, man?
Speaker 1 (44:27):
what hobbies do you have or did you have?
What do you want to go back toand what would you recommend?
I want to go back to umbasketball.
Speaker 4 (44:35):
Basketball is something I always used to play
and I always talk about it likeman.
One weekend I need to go outthere and do it, but I just
don't do it and I'm in pain whenI do it afterwards now.
But yeah, that and likeprobably finding a boxing gym
and just getting back into that.
Speaker 1 (44:51):
And you're a little young to be in pain after you
work out.
Speaker 4 (44:53):
I don't know, it's like my body, not the same.
Speaker 2 (44:56):
I always think that Listen at it, listen at it now,
if you don't lose it you lose it.
You lose it.
Speaker 4 (45:03):
Yeah, the problem is you're not games outside in the
sun and then now, after one, twogames, I'm like dang these.
The same knees ankles I had,yeah, sir health is wealth too.
Speaker 2 (45:14):
You know you got to keep yourself up, especially
when you're young.
Start maintaining your body.
Yeah, so by the time you're oldman like us, you know you'd be
good, please, bro, please.
Speaker 1 (45:22):
It's crazy because, like I said earlier, I said like
I haven't been in the gym in along time.
I just started going back threeweeks ago.
One of the biggest drivers forme me going with my son.
I take so much joy in liketaking him to the gym.
So now he's lifting weights,he's working out and it's really
, really cool and I can't waitto see him start to transform.
So it's going to be prettyexciting to see that.
But the most important thing wegot out of this conversation, I
(45:44):
think is think, is just to makesure that we do understand that
we are also a priority.
I heard someone say it best.
They said you know, at the endof the day, when you come to
this planet, you have one humanthat you're supposed to treat
better than any other human andit's the body you occupy.
And as men we don't do that allright.
So cool earlier today who lost?
(46:04):
You didn't flip before, oh shit, let's flip I'll go.
I won't do it.
I love that.
Okay, so we're gonna pretendthat we flipped the coin.
We didn't flip a coin, butlet's say, you lost that coin.
Speaker 3 (46:15):
Toss my brother so, dre, who you gonna be?
I am going to be presidentbarack obama all right let me
know when you're ready.
Shit, let's go for it, man.
My fellow Americans, pleasesupport us by following the show
(46:35):
.
Leave us a five-star review onApple Podcasts.
Thank you so much for listening.
We'll catch you next week,where we share conversations
surrounding real issues that we,as black men, deal with every
(46:56):
day.
Manhood Matters Obama out,obama out, let's go.
We'll see you next time.
Why aren't we doing more of that?
Why aren't we doing a littlebit of an escape or just
something to just kind of helpus?
Is it the pressure to beproductive?
Like what is it?
Speaker 2 (00:09):
We're shamed by society for having hobbies,
we're shamed by ourselves forhaving hobbies and we're shamed
by the relationships in ourlives for having hobbies.
Speaker 1 (00:17):
You think so Because I don't know if I've experienced
that you tell yourself.
Speaker 2 (00:20):
You're too busy, you got.
You're too busy, you got toomuch going on.
I'm not going to take the timeto do what I want to do for me.
So you're shaming yourselfbecause you should be doing
something else.
Speaker 3 (00:27):
Some of your meetings could be on the golf course,
could they Not in thisparticular?
Speaker 1 (00:31):
case, not yet.
Once upon a time in America, aman could earn a decent living
wage, take care of home andfamily and still find time and
the financial means for hobbiesor distractions, or even ways to
reset and rejuvenate.
My guests, jamon Elder, ladre,gilbert, nick, pierre and myself
(00:54):
are discussing this so-calledluxury we can no longer afford.
It seems that today we work andgo home.
That's it.
We do our very best in facingour responsibilities, but hardly
, if ever, schedule time forourselves.
I remember being in a very sadrelationship once and a friend
told me that love is overrated.
(01:16):
Just do what you're supposed todo as a man go home and shut up
.
So is chasing happinesssomething we should abandon, or
can we make it part of theequation that completes us as
men?
Do these hobbies ordistractions allow us to
recalibrate our minds, ourhearts?
(01:36):
How important are they in ourdaily lives?
Join us for thisthought-provoking conversation
and, as always, email us yourfeedback at
manhoodmatterspodcast atgmailcom.
Welcome to Manhood Matters.
Let's get to it.
(02:18):
Thank you, gentlemen, forcoming back one more time and
having this conversation with me.
I appreciate you guys beinghere Glad to be back.
Yes, sir, yes sir, no doubt manOnce again you know, and, of
course, newcomer here, youngblood.
Thanks for having me.
This is something that, offline, g and I were talking about and
I said you know, we talk aboutmen's health a lot.
(02:40):
We talk about a lot of thingsthat we need to have, and when
he brought up, something thatseems really simple and really
basic and it's just hobbiesGrowing up and even watching our
parents and their parents menhad hobbies, and that seems to
be something that's just lost.
So what do you guys do?
What's your outlet?
First of all, how important isit to have those things?
(03:03):
Let's start with that Beforeyou talk about what your hobbies
are.
How important is it to havethose things?
Let's start with that Beforeyou talk about what your hobbies
are.
How important is it to evenhave those in your life?
Speaker 3 (03:09):
I think it's paramount.
My outlet used to be beforeCOVID.
I used to travel, so it didn'teven have to be anywhere in
particular, like anywherespecial, just changing scenery.
So a lot of times, from NorthFlorida I'd come up here just
for a weekend just to get out ofthe space.
It, um, it paid like majordividends feeling something
(03:30):
different, getting a differentvibe, and then going back it
just kind of helped re-energizeme.
So I absolutely.
But now what I do, man, listen,I'm a lifelong gamer.
I'm not ashamed of it, nobody'sgonna make me feel bad about it
.
I had an Atari.
I had a Nintendo, I had a SuperNintendo, I had a PS3.
I had an Xbox and now I wentback to PS5.
(03:52):
No, ps4 and PS5.
But yeah, I'm a gamer.
That's what I do, you know hunt, fish and stuff like that
outside.
But my main hobby that I don'thave to do anything but just go
and sit down and hit that buttonSounds like you're keeping
yourself pretty busy.
Speaker 1 (04:08):
What about you G?
Speaker 2 (04:14):
Hobbies are very important.
I think it's a lost thing onthis generation.
I think a lot of guys youngerthan me don't have any hobbies.
Me personally, I do a lot ofhiking, I run a lot of obstacle
races and I also do like combatsports, sports.
So I like to go.
I go to boxing gyms, I'll go to.
I'll go to jujitsu.
I used to wrestle.
So I'll call up my old highschool buddies and a lot of them
coach teams, so I'll go inthere and roll with some of the
young bucks.
(04:34):
So you know, just, you stillneed to do something to compete
and kind of keep the bloodflowing, things like that.
You know, as an older guy, youwant to try and keep those
things going.
Speaker 1 (04:43):
What about you, Nick?
You do anything.
Speaker 4 (04:44):
I guess I hit the gym .
I don't know if that's a hobby.
No, it's not.
Yeah, it's not a hobby.
Everything is like I used to.
I used to hit the boxing gymyears ago and I ran little stuff
like the 5Ks and stuff, butlately, no, I haven't been doing
anything.
Speaker 1 (05:02):
So why do you find that?
Is it time for you as well, oris it just?
Speaker 4 (05:06):
I don't know, I don't want to use time as an excuse,
because people make time forthings, but I guess I just don't
fit it into my life.
Speaker 1 (05:14):
I had this conversation with a few of my
buddies not too long ago where Ihad no drive or no desire.
It was time, but also I had nodesire.
Fact, I hadn't been in the gymfor like over a year and a half.
I used to kind of work out allthe time and I just stopped
working.
I just stopped like I no driveto do anything.
My excuse was a bit different,though.
I'm a lot older.
Let me throw something outthere.
Speaker 2 (05:35):
Yeah, with his generation.
What I think it is with them isthat a lot of times when a man
has hobbies, they're shamed.
They'll shame you for having.
Lot of times when a man hashobbies, they're shamed.
They'll shame you for havinghobbies or hanging out with the
boys, things like that.
So this guy's a gamer rightyeah.
If he says, hey, I play videogames all day, people
immediately think okay, he'syoung, he's lazy, he probably
(05:56):
just sits around smoking weedand pushing buttons, like that's
how they they see it.
You know he goes hunting or hegoes fishing, things like that.
They, they automatically attestlike a stigma to it.
I think, like the youngergeneration, when a man has
hobbies and he hangs out withother men doing those things,
they immediately kind of attacha negative connotation to it.
Speaker 1 (06:16):
Is this one of those things where your generation
calls everything lame?
I don't think they call thingslame, as lame as you go fishing,
maybe like gaming, or somethingmight have like a bad look, but
I don't think there call thingslame.
Speaker 4 (06:24):
That's lame.
You go fishing, maybe, likegaming or something might have
like a bad look, but I don'tthink there's anything wrong
with gaming.
Like I'm pretty sure you likeyou done got your life set up
Like you're comfortable.
You could afford to sit andplay games.
I feel like I can't yet rightnow you know what I'm saying
Like I'll probably feel bad if Isit and play games like that
Cause, like shoot, I need to getmy life together.
So I feel like if I game for anhour or two, it's like damn, I
(06:44):
just wasted that.
I could have you know what I'msaying did something else.
You know what I'm saying.
Speaker 2 (06:48):
There's a stigma and a shame behind it.
Speaker 1 (06:50):
Yeah, I mean I love what you're saying in terms of
the drive and the ambition andhaving that self-reflection to
say, hey, you know, that's great, but at the out, here is the
(07:11):
fact that we need that outlet.
We need that hour or two.
If it's 30 minutes a day foryou, if it's something we get
away and we go do once a week,once a month hell, I'm trying to
get back to where I can golfonce a month.
Again, that's my outlet.
But I think you should be ableto do that and kind of balance
it all out.
Speaker 3 (07:18):
It's actually the exact opposite with me.
So it's not that I haveeverything together, it's not
that I have a bunch of time.
What I do with the game is, asopposed to, like wanting to go
out, spend money and do otherthings, that's something I can
do at home and I'm comfortabledoing it and it allows me to be
able to, you know, like staygrounded, stay focused and not
go out and blow a bunch of moneyand kind of like you know, just
(07:40):
just kind of.
you know, blow off steam withouthaving to go anywhere and do
anything, and it's been a realimportant part of my life.
Speaker 1 (07:46):
Should we, as men, go out of our way to create
something that gives us achannel and an outlet?
Absolutely so what does thatlook like for everyone?
For me, I'm kind of like you,but I haven't gotten there yet
to where.
I'd love to just travel a wholelot.
I prefer experiences overthings.
But one thing I do enjoy, man,is a nice round of golf, and I
(08:09):
used to play a lot when I was inTennessee.
I mean, I was in the league.
I played every weekend,probably played twice a week,
but here I don't think I'veplayed in forever right.
And every time I drive by acourse I'm in the car all day
long.
As you know, for what I do forwork, I'm going from appointment
to appointment and I'm alwaysdriving by a golf course, and
every time I drive by one I'mslowing down, I'm looking, I'm
(08:32):
all feeling sad.
I'm looking at one guy playinga hole.
I'm like, ah, he chunked thatball.
So it's something that I thinkthat I need so much.
Or even just getting togetherwith the boys to just like
hanging out, going to someone'syard, throwing something on the
grill, just chilling, smoking acigar, whatever.
It's just something I thinkthat is so imperative, something
that we need in our lives andwe just I think that it's not
(08:54):
the kind of thing that you canafford not to have for our own
sanity.
Do you think there's levels tohobbies?
Speaker 2 (09:00):
I'm not sure what you mean by that, but I'm going to
say that I mean like there'ssome healthy masculine hobbies
that men should have, right.
And then there's other hobbiesthat are their hobbies, but
they're potentially destructive.
Sure, yeah, so I like to gohunt or I like to go fish.
Those are hobbies, right.
Yeah, I want to play around thegolf all the time.
I want to play video games allthe time.
(09:22):
Those are potentiallydestructive.
I want to play video games allthe time.
Those are potentiallydestructive.
Why do you say that?
I mean, anything in excess isdestructive, right?
Okay, yeah, and you knowimmediately, certain things have
like a negative connotation tothem and some other things may
not, you know.
So I travel too much.
Anything in excess is bad, yeah, so are there levels to hobbies
?
Speaker 1 (09:39):
I guess.
So I guess it's called a hobbyfor a reason.
Don't let it become anobsession or more of a habit
right when it's like it needs tohappen or an addiction.
As much as I love to beaddicted to golf, I'm not I mean
, obviously.
Speaker 2 (09:51):
In order to decompress, though, you need to
get away right?
That's exactly what I'm saying,so it can become an obsession.
Speaker 1 (09:56):
I have balance, even though I do have an obsession,
do you?
Speaker 3 (10:09):
Like being real, bro, because I'm sounds like you're,
because, bro, I'm just beyondwith you, bro, like when I hear
you, I hear you tell you work,work, work, work.
Speaker 1 (10:12):
You're right.
So I miss folk and you alwayssay you have balance.
I'm kind of like wait a minute.
I think we kind of need to have.
So what, what I meant was in mydesire and what I want to do
right meaning that I will neverlet it get out of hand to where?
Oh yeah, you know, I go golf somuch that I'm not even going to
my appointments.
I'm not working, I'm spendingtoo much money.
Speaker 3 (10:25):
Unless you become the club pro right.
Speaker 1 (10:28):
And that's not happening right.
So you know, and that's justreality.
You don't decide at 50.
You're going to be a pro andthen do it.
But in that sense you're right.
I don't have that balance thatI'd like to have, but I do have
that balance in terms of, likemaking the decision for me to
say, yeah, I need to golf once aweek, and if I don't, I don't.
I smoke cigars.
I'm like you, I'll go six,seven, eight months without
(10:51):
smoking a single cigar, cause AI, to your point, should find
time to at least go sit on mydeck, pull out a cigar and just
breathe, just relax.
I don't even get to do thatShit.
I bought this golf simulatorthing that I can just hit off my
deck.
It's been in a box for sixmonths.
I haven't even taken it out ofthe box.
So I need to be able to dothese things.
But I don't find time.
(11:12):
But to answer your question, Iknow for me that it would never
get to a point where it'sdestructive or it's taking time
away from family or anythinglike that.
But we do need to create timefor ourselves, otherwise we
implode.
Speaker 2 (11:26):
Should we sacrifice time with our family or doing
other things for ourselves, forour hobbies?
Speaker 1 (11:29):
I don't think it's a sacrifice.
I think they should be able tomake time for it, and I don't
know that I'm qualified to giveadvice.
I can only tell what I'm doing.
So for me, my responsibilitiesfor my household and my family
come first.
So the hobbies are beingsacrificed.
When I get to where I need toget to, I'm headed back to that.
I've had it at one point, lostit, but I'm headed back to that.
(11:51):
But once I get there again, Iknow for a fact that first of
all, I enjoy spending time withmy wife.
It's not a sacrifice.
We enjoy the same things.
We have a good time together.
She's gone to the golf course.
She doesn't play golf, butshe'll go there and wear the hat
and be cute and drink.
That's perfectly fine with me.
I love playing soccer.
I want to go back to playing ina league once a week or
whatever.
It is one evening, becauseusually those guys play at night
(12:12):
again.
Speaker 3 (12:13):
These are things that I can go do, but never at the
expense of spending time with myfamily first, right one of the
um things I wanted to ask g,because I think you brought it
up and and if I'm getting ahead,you always let me know I'm
getting ahead of myself.
No worries If I'm getting aheadof myself.
So what's the balance betweenhaving an outlet and escapism?
That's a great question Becausefor me, when I talked about
(12:36):
travel a lot of times like I wasusing travel, it was a hobby,
but it became like let me, letme escape this reality for a
while and get out of thisenvironment.
But you know, like they alwayssay, like you know, people say
you drink or you get intoxicated, your problems are going to be
there when you get back.
So I had to, you know, try tofigure out a way to like OK, let
(12:58):
me not, you know, spend so muchtime away that I'm not actually
like dealing with the thingsthat I need to.
So that's why I just kind ofwanted to pose that question to
you guys, like even you, g, orSteph, or Nick.
Speaker 2 (13:09):
To me that's an interesting question.
But my personal philosophy as aman I don't believe I should be
happy.
I think men that focus on beinghappy all the time that's not
not what a man's supposed to be,you know, know, you shouldn't
be in a continuous state ofunhappiness and or fear, but you
should relatively be living inlike a state of contentment they
(13:31):
talk to.
That appears, alan bro, youshouldn't be happy.
I know, like a happy man isweird.
It's weird happy man is weirdyes, if you're around a man,
he's just always focused onbeing happy.
People that focus on beinghappy.
That's how you get into drugsand alcohol and and women and
sex and all that type of stuff.
You start getting intodegenerate stuff, trying to
focus on being happy.
Okay, no, you should just notbe in pain and like a continuous
(13:53):
state of of disease.
Speaker 3 (13:55):
You know, gee, I'm concerned.
What'sfree, footloose, noresponsibility like I'm not
holding or ownership?
Is that what you're saying?
Speaker 2 (14:14):
I'm not saying that you shouldn't experience some
fleeting moments of happiness?
Right, right, you should.
You should be able to playbasketball with your son and and
really be happy in that moment.
You should enjoy that.
But you shouldn't spend yourlife seeking to just be happy,
right?
Like women say, I just want tobe happy.
Men shouldn't say that, youknow.
Speaker 3 (14:32):
Really Relating to the Constitution life, liberty
and pursuit of happiness.
Speaker 2 (14:35):
And the pursuit of happiness right you should be
pursuing happiness, but youshouldn't sit there and be happy
all the time.
Speaker 1 (14:42):
Never reach it Wow.
Speaker 2 (14:45):
Conquest, never reaching, happy all the time,
never reaching wow.
But I'm interested in whatcontinuous?
For me, conquest is continuous.
You should never get to a pointwhere you're just happy and
content and that's just the wayit is.
That's not how life's supposedto be as a man.
Women are supposed to focus onhappiness.
Children are supposed to havefocus on happiness.
Men we should focus on beingproud of ourselves and
achievement and trying toaccomplish things you know
that's not that's.
And if you need a, little bit ofstepping back to recharge some
(15:05):
escapism, like you said.
That's okay, but you shouldn'tfocus on I need to do this to be
happy.
I don't believe that's howyou're supposed to live that's a
very, very interesting take onit think about what I'm saying
when you hear a man say I justwant to be happy I'm gonna do
whatever it takes to be happy,don't?
You think that's strange?
Speaker 1 (15:25):
Sure Doesn't that sound weird.
I've never heard that by theway Okay.
Speaker 2 (15:28):
You've never seen a man say that.
Speaker 1 (15:29):
Nobody I know.
Yeah, I mean.
I don't think there's a manthat I know personally that I'd
be in conversation with, that'dbe like I just want to be happy.
I don't know.
For some say what I mean.
Right, maybe it's because wedon't open up to each other
enough that we don't say that,but also it's because I've never
heard that as a completesentence.
There's more to it.
(15:49):
They'll say here's what I needin order for me to be happy.
It's not.
I just want to be happy as aconcept and it's just wide open.
So, for instance, I want moneyto be out of the way.
I want to have enough that Idon't have to think about it
anymore.
I want to make sure that I havemy health, the people that are
closest to me wife and kidsthey're healthy.
I heard Jim Rohn say this onceand I love that.
(16:15):
He says I want to build afinancial armor around my family
that is unbreakable.
Now, you don't need a milliondollars a month to do that.
You can do that verycomfortably on 20 grand a month.
Some people barely crack, youknow, 40, 50 a year.
You could do really, reallywell, depending on where you
live in the country, right With20,000, 30,000 and do extremely
well where you're not thinkingabout money, especially if it's
passive.
You're not having to go work 80hours a week for it.
So I want to be able to do whatI want to do with whomever I
(16:38):
want, whenever I want.
Speaker 2 (16:45):
Let's.
So let's unpack what you justsaid, right?
You said hey, in order to behappy, I need my health.
Relatively speaking, for themost part you're in decent
health, right.
You can function, you can moveand everything.
You're good, right, so you haveyour health.
Can I correct something?
Go?
Speaker 1 (16:54):
ahead and if I said it I want to correct it.
I didn't say in order for me tobe happy, I need anything
external.
What I said, if we're going totalk about being happy, at least
here in this incarnation not todive into the spiritual, but I
will say I don't need anythingoutside of me to be happy.
But if we're going to talkabout the happiness in the sense
that we're speaking of it hereon this planet, living as human
(17:14):
beings, I have certain thingsthat I would chase in order for
me to be content, happy and bein a place where I'm satisfied.
I'm not going to chase forever,chase forever, satisfied and
content.
There's okay, there's aconquest.
So I disagree with you on onething fundamentally right when
you said the joy or thehappiness itself is in the
pursuit.
I get that when I'm trying toachieve something, maybe if I
(17:36):
want to be a pro athlete, maybeif I'm trying to be successful
in business or anything likethat.
But in terms of how I live, ifI could just pay all my bills
off and all I have to pay istaxes on my property, I have
passive income coming in.
I have my health, my wife hasher health, I'm not battling.
So the health is important tome because that's the one thing
I really can't control.
I could control it to a certaindegree, but, yeah, I can't.
Speaker 2 (17:56):
But what I'm saying is you're describing happiness
and contentment.
You're not describing happiness.
People that want to be happy,like I said, they get into
things trying to feel that allthe time right, feeling content
and okay, everything's good,nothing's nothing catastrophic
is happening.
That's different than I.
Want to be happy all the time.
You know you're constantlychasing a high when you're
(18:18):
looking for happiness is thatwhat we're saying, though?
Speaker 1 (18:19):
to have that, those endorphins and yeah, that's not
what we're saying.
Speaker 2 (18:23):
I don't think that's what I'm saying I'm saying, oh
yeah, okay, you shouldn't bechasing happiness.
I mean, it's okay to be content, it's okay to be good with what
you have, actually focusing ontrying to be happy all the time
in a state of euphoric bliss.
Yeah, well, no everything'sincredible, everything's
interesting and exciting andit's yeah, that's a weirdo.
That's that's a weirdo.
Yes, it'll be like that, but,yes, a weirdo, don't want to be
(18:44):
like that.
Speaker 3 (18:44):
But what you just wrote down, brother, what you
just said, right, I'm going topiggyback off of that.
I think that more men, butespecially black men, need to
get in the space of.
We deserve to be happy man.
And it's not like, it's not achore, it's not an indictment
(19:06):
and it a knock on us as men forwanting to be happy, for us to
be able to have the basicaccoutrements of life a roof
over our head, clothes to go onour backs, food on our table,
our health, our family doingwell.
You can put a smile on yourface because of that.
For example, I'm watching youinteract with your daughter here
(19:30):
, right In this space.
Your daughter, who was onceyour little baby, was sitting
across from you and you'repodcasting and she's helping you
and you know she's a part thathas to make you happy.
It's euphoric.
You get what I'm saying.
Or even looking out the windowand seeing your wife out there,
or maybe some of your relativesout there in the yard doing what
she wants to do right, tryingto get your two salads Right.
(19:52):
Get your two salads.
All this for two salads, right.
So what I'm saying is like bro,like, yes, someone who wants to
be like jovial and just I meanjust like carefree fancy foot
and carefree like all the timeright.
I think that yes, because Ithink even in the Godfather I
think he's talking to Michael hesays that you can never be
(20:14):
careless.
Men can't be careless.
Women and children can becareless, but not men, and I've
always taken that.
You know we can't let ourguards down and let things go
undone, but I think, as much aswe can, we need to try to find a
way to carve out a space in ourlives that exudes our happiness
.
Speaker 1 (20:35):
Well, it's because of that tension, it's what you
just said.
It's because of that tension.
This is why we need that space.
This is why we need to escapeevery once in a while, because
there's always tension, like youjust said.
I look out the window.
I see my wife.
Thank God I'm not over thereworking on the garden right now.
But that makes me happy.
I watch my kids and I'm veryjoyful in these moments and I
(20:55):
can live like this forever.
But, to your point, there'salways a level of vigilance that
we are still kind of watchingbecause we have to Right.
It's kind of like that sheepdogwho was to watch the flock to
make sure nothing's coming toharm any of that.
Speaker 2 (21:10):
And I'm not saying you're not going to have those
moments of happiness.
You're going to experiencehappiness over the course of
your life.
But trying to consistently livein that state that's my point
you shouldn't try and live inthat state.
Speaker 3 (21:19):
But G, I want to share something with you, man,
because I like that you'reexpounding on your point.
I want to share this with youguys man, there was one time I
was living in the morning and myhardest decision was what I was
(21:41):
going to drive that day rightand a couple hundred thousand
dollars in the bank, and I wasmiserable.
Like I was miserable.
I remember I went to the bankone day and I put a check for a
hundred thousand dollars in thebank and I felt nothing.
I wouldn't feel happy, I didn'tfeel sad, I didn't feel a car,
I felt nothing.
And so I think that, like whenwe talk about escapism, I had a
(22:01):
deeper problem that wasmanifesting itself, it was
festering with me that caused meto be in that state and I had
to go unpack a lot of things andfigure out what was going on,
how you get everything in life.
Like when you said, right, I had, and you and I have a lot of
similar values.
I see we have a lot of similarvalues.
I had all that and I wasmiserable, but it took, like to
(22:23):
me and my spiritual journey, godtaking away all of that living
in a room, sometimes living inmy car, not having money in my
pocket, having to go into hotelsto eat continental breakfast
and then making another plate totake with me to eat later that
day, right To understand how toappreciate when I have certain
things, and because I was ableto develop that level of
(22:46):
appreciation, that's where myhappiness came in, because I
realized I didn't need, I don'tneed all of these things to be
happy.
I just need these basic things,along with, like those things
that you said, to truly be happy.
Speaker 1 (22:59):
So I love that you said that and I actually thought
about this, because if you hadasked me 15, 20 years ago what
would make me happy, I didn'tknow what it was Right, you know
.
First of all, I am.
Next step for me really is thatfinancial armor security.
Yeah, it's just getting towhere you're creating something
that cannot be taken or rippedaway from you, right, and you
(23:20):
have the security for yourfamily, and I want to be able to
spend a lot of time with myfamily, right, which means I
don't be trading time for moneyanymore.
I don't want to be working 80hours, 90 hours a week, and to
not see them to provide thatright, right, so I'm working on
some other things right nowbehind the scenes where I can
create that security for themand work in 20 hours a week.
Speaker 2 (23:39):
Is that happiness for you, or is that happiness for
them?
Speaker 1 (23:42):
So I don't know, I think me and my wife talk enough
, that I think we have the same.
We talk enough about thesethings.
Speaker 2 (23:48):
Like I said when we met it's making you happy
because you feel like you'reproviding for your family and
they'll be okay about thesethings.
Like I said when we met, it'smaking you happy because you
feel like you're providing foryour family and they'll be okay.
It's like Christmas For me.
You know, you got my kids, Igot my kids, my cousins, my
grandchildren, stuff like thataround handing out presents to
everybody.
The joy is in the giving foryou, I get socks you know,
everybody around me is happy.
Speaker 1 (24:09):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (24:10):
Right, and as soon as all the presents are done being
wrapped and all that stuff, allthe presents are opened and
everything I'm ready to go backto work.
You know, like I was happy inthat moment, but I'm ready to
move on from this moment.
I don't live in happiness, Idon't live in that blissful
state.
Everybody around me is content,happy, like I don't think
you're supposed to be happy,happy all the time.
Speaker 1 (24:30):
I can give an opinion , but I'm not qualified to
dissect it any further than that.
I can tell you that I believethat there is a point.
Once I checked certain boxeschecked a few already, I've got
a few more to check I can be inthat state.
I'm not going to say that I'mgoing to live in that state
permanently, but overall, if youlook at the overall person,
(24:50):
when we say, is someone happy,is someone miserable?
Miserable people have happymoments.
Right, you have people who areabsolutely the worst.
They're always miserable,everything's always negative,
but yet they have the experiencehappy moments.
But overall that's themiserable bastard.
Right there, right.
So I want to be the opposite.
I want to be a person whoexperiences sadness, ups and
downs, sickness and everythingelse.
(25:11):
Sure, sure, but overall, whenyou look at my life, I am a
happy person who's working on afew extra things, and maybe it's
because I'm older to where Iknow exactly what it takes to
get me there.
Speaker 4 (25:21):
So how do you prepare yourself or how can you avoid
being miserable once you get tothat point of like success or
close to it or something likehow you had everything and you
was miserable.
So if you could go back, do youthink there was a way to avoid
feeling like that while havingall that stuff?
Speaker 3 (25:40):
Yes, sir, yes, sir, and thank you for that question,
because that is a question thatI had to answer within myself.
That, I believe, has allowed meto now be happy.
And that question was why am Idoing what I'm doing?
I was 20 years old.
I was on my way to class.
I remember this plainest dayand it was like cold in
(26:01):
tallahassee, like.
I don't know if y'all been intallahassee, but tallahassee
cold is a different type of cold.
Anybody listening to this hasbeen in tallahassee.
That tallahassee cold isdifferent.
This spring is coldtallahasseallahassee.
Speaker 1 (26:11):
Florida, florida, that's where we got laughing.
You're not in Florida, right?
Speaker 3 (26:14):
Yeah, yeah.
But listen, man, I'm tellingyou man.
Speaker 2 (26:18):
It's next to the water, so it gets cold, is that?
Speaker 3 (26:20):
why?
But hey, listen, at that point,I had not.
I grew up in New York, dude.
That's what we're talking about, man, listen, I see what you
mean, coming from Florida.
Speaker 1 (26:31):
Right, and then you were in.
Speaker 3 (26:32):
Tallahassee.
So I was on my way to class onemorning and I was like man,
fuck this man, I'm about to goto Waffle House get me some eat.
I'm about to go get back in thebed, right.
And then everybody like here'sthe class.
And I saw one at that time,like I'm gonna get my degree
because this is what I want.
(26:52):
Um, I got a chance to work withum attorney Benjamin Crump.
Man, I saw the first day Iworked with him.
I saw what his watch was like,I saw what kind of car he was
driving, I saw what kind of suithe was wearing.
I just saw all these things andI thought like man, that's what
I want.
Like I saw the way the house hehad, I saw the wife, I mean all
the things that he had.
I was like these are the thingsthat I want.
And I went and I pursued those.
(27:13):
Like Willie Gary, have you everseen that movie?
The Burial with Jamie Foxx wasabout Willie Gary, very
successful lawyer down South.
Um, but I, these are the thingsthat I thought I wanted.
So I just chased this stuff.
Like I want 757,.
Like him, I want the wings ofjustice.
I want, you know, these things,this is what I want.
This is happiness for me, andwhat I wound up realizing is man
(27:34):
on my way to these things as alawyer, chasing ambulances is
what.
That's just not what makes mehappy, right.
So fast forward to today.
After all that's over and nowall the dust is cleared and
everything.
Here I am in this new phase.
You know, after the ashes andeverything, man, I get up every
day and I'm focused on healthequity outcomes for
(27:56):
African-American males in ourcommunity.
I can work on that all day, allnight, whether I get paid or
don't get paid.
And I'm more fulfilled than whenI've gone to court and gotten a
jury verdict, because I'd neverlost a jury trial murder cases,
all that stuff.
I feel more fulfilled in doingthat.
I barbershop talk.
I was more fulfilled that daywhen I walked out of that
(28:17):
barbershop talk than I ever feltfulfilled walking out of a
courtroom.
Wow, and that's real purpose.
Like I said, you being 27,you're in that point now where
you're about to really start tofigure out who and what you are
as a man and what makes youreally truly happy and what your
life pursuits need to be.
So have grace with yourself,but always if you're pursuing
purpose.
When the money comes, it's anadded bonus because you love
(28:40):
what you do.
Speaker 1 (28:41):
But when you're doing something strictly for money,
man, you get the money and thenyou still feel miserable because
the money doesn't fix what'sbroken inside you and the issues
that you already have.
Yes, sir you, what's brokeninside you and the issues that
you already have?
Yes, sir, you know one of myfavorite movies of all time
avengers.
They ask thanos, okay, you'regonna do this you're gonna get
(29:02):
the stones.
Speaker 2 (29:02):
You're gonna destroy half the universe.
And then what he goes?
I'm gonna look on on onto agrateful universe or something.
Speaker 1 (29:05):
Yeah, he goes then I can retire in my little cabin,
yeah, grow my plants and watchthe sunrise on a grateful
universe.
If you ask me, what's going tomake me happy is to sit around a
campfire, watch my kids, watchmy grandkids.
My wife and we're cooking in avery modest home, plenty of land
, and be able to just enjoythose moments.
(29:26):
Take my guitar, hang around thecampfire, maybe learn how to
ride a horse, go down the Creekand fish a little.
Speaker 2 (29:32):
Do you think your wife would love that man?
Speaker 1 (29:39):
Yes, yes, Because that man is who she has now.
We're just trying to get tothese things.
That man is who she has now.
We're clear on that.
I know what the direction isbecause I know what I want.
She and I talked about what wewant as the end goal.
Are we going to travel?
Sure, Am I going to still run abusiness?
Absolutely.
I'm not going to sit around anddo nothing but that $50 million
in a bank account.
We're not going to sit aroundand be useless.
That's the way I would look atit.
(29:59):
Still, purpose my drive andmotivation, which is one of the
reasons I considered joining the100 Black Men, is because my
true calling is to give andmentor young men.
I'm writing a book.
I'm going to put that out.
To give and mentor a young man.
I'm writing a book.
I'm going to put that out.
My core audience is young menfrom the age of 11 years old to
about 20, 25 years old.
Why?
Because I want to focus onthese gentlemen.
(30:20):
I want to help them understandthat I want to pull the veil so
they can see what's behind thecurtain, because there are
opportunities I never thoughtabout doing, from
entrepreneurship to sales andthings of the sort.
I want to basically show themthis and I want to go to the
worst parts of the country, theinner cities, and these kids
have there's only one dream forthem, and hopefully they make it
in sports.
(30:40):
Otherwise they're screwedbecause they're certainly not
chasing academics the way theyshould, and I want to show them
some alternatives.
So I do have those desires, butI'll enjoy doing that.
I'll do it for free.
This podcast, I've had someoneask me when I was first started
doing it.
Before I even started, I say,hey, I'm going to do a podcast
and one of the main reasons fordoing is because I think we come
on this platform and we sitdown and we happen to be more
(31:00):
vulnerable.
I think it's therapeutic for alot of us.
I've had people sit here andcry.
I've myself had shed some tears.
We have these conversations andthe question I was asked by a
buddy who still doesn't supportthe show, but basically, hey,
how are you going to monetizethis?
I said if I make money, I makemoney, If I don't, I don't.
He goes.
Well, if you don't make moneyin a year, are you going to keep
(31:22):
doing it?
My answer was yeah, I enjoydoing this.
Dude, I want to do this.
I've had people come throughand they were like, for the most
part, everyone who leaves here.
They were like man.
I'm grateful that I had thisconversation.
This helped me, help put a newspin on things.
I got some things out of mysystem that so would I still do
that without getting a singledime out of it?
Absolutely.
I'd keep going and do it forfree until my soul desire is not
(31:42):
to do it anymore and then I'dstop.
What I don't want to do is be aslave to working 80 hours a
week for somebody else's companyand chasing them.
I have my own company.
I'm working on building now andonce it's done, 90% of what I
do is going to be passive.
Speaker 2 (31:57):
Back to what he was saying about success.
I think what you guys said asfar as like finding a purpose
behind it A lot of young mendon't know how to find a purpose
, trying to find what they'resupposed to be doing.
But I would say, until you findthat purpose, you should just
chase achievement.
People say I want to besuccessful, but they can't
really define success.
I would pick things you want toachieve.
You want to get your license soyou can start driving trucks.
(32:20):
You want to make a certainamount of money a year.
I would focus on achievingthose things and in that you'll
find your purpose.
You'll find what makes yousuccessful.
Speaker 1 (32:29):
I would have to agree with that.
Yep, yeah.
Speaker 2 (32:31):
Those are all like nebulous terms.
I want, I want to find mypurpose, I want to find success.
Like those are like nebulous,all encompassing terms.
Speaker 3 (32:40):
And also the commonality of life.
All of us, all of us came froma woman and all of us are going
to return to the groundeventually.
So everything in between thatright is up to us to find, like,
where, which way we go.
But that commonality of wherewe start and where we end lets
us know that we have a beginning, a finite period of time in
(33:03):
which we're going to exist, andwe have an ending, and so, when
we think about it in those terms, that's how it, when people say
success is a journey and not adestination, this is the most,
uh, like, just apt that you'regoing to be as a, as a man,
given all that you have, towardsbeing the best version of
yourself.
And in that, take time, dothings that 20 year man.
(33:24):
What do 20 year olds do now?
Do things that 20 year old man.
What do 20 year olds do now?
Do things that 20 year olds dowhile you're still in your 20s,
because before you know it,you'll be 35 and you'll be like,
where did my 20s go?
And then you'll be having your40th birthday party.
So, like we talk about hobbies,don't feel ashamed, don't be in
a rush, take your time andenjoy as you're going to fulfill
(33:46):
your purpose, man.
Speaker 1 (33:54):
But, like you said, like definitely reach for the
stars, man, get you some hobbies.
So, speaking of get you somehobbies, and since we're
circling back to that, whyaren't we doing more of that?
Why aren't we doing a littlebit of an escape or just
something to just kind of helpus?
I call it keeping my sanity,you know, I don't just go
fucking blow up on somebody.
Is it the pressure to beproductive?
Like what is it?
Speaker 2 (34:10):
We're shamed by society for having hobbies.
We're shamed by ourselves forhaving hobbies and we're shamed
by our the relationships in ourlives for having hobbies, you
know.
Speaker 1 (34:20):
You think so Because I don't know if I've experienced
that.
I mean, I know what you'resaying, but I guess maybe you
tell yourself you're too busy.
Speaker 2 (34:26):
You got too much going on.
I'm not going to take the timeto do what I want to do for me,
right?
So you're shaming yourselfbecause you should be doing
something else.
You could be more productivedoing something else.
You shame yourself.
Speaker 3 (34:37):
Some of your meetings could be on the golf course,
could they no?
Speaker 1 (34:42):
Not in this particular case, not yet.
Okay, I got you, but I see whatyou're saying.
I guess it's when I hear theword shame there's a parallel to
am I embarrassed about thisparticular thing?
But I know what you're sayingnow.
So I appreciate you clarifyingbecause, you're right, I'm
judging myself very harshly.
Speaker 3 (34:58):
You know a goat conversation that we had in the
barbershop about Kobe andMichael LeBron and we talked
about Kobe and that mamamentality man, about how he just
worked, he just worked, he justworked.
And I always I go back to this.
I remember that story when theywere in that the Redeem team,
when they were out in Vegas, howLeBron and those guys were
coming home from the club atfour o'clock in the morning and
(35:20):
Kobe was in the lobby with hisgym shoes and his bag ready to
go to the gym to get to work.
And it's like truly achievewhat it is that you want, Like
you want that it's going to takethat level of sacrifice, Right.
But even if you ask Kobe, evenif you ask Michael, I guarantee
you, man, as much success asthey had.
I guarantee they would go backand say, man, there were times
(35:41):
that I would have taken a break.
Know he had that much time left.
Would he have not taken moretime with his family and more
time with his daughters?
Or I think he's a prime exampleof someone who sacrificed a
tremendous deal to be great andthen the moving finger decided
that he was going to leave earthbefore any of us thought that
(36:04):
he was supposed to, and nowthat's time he can't get back
and we'll ask Colby now if wecould Colby was all that worth
it?
Would he still give the sameanswer that yes, five rings, and
me being a great basketballplayer and arguably the greatest
of all time was that worth allthe sacrifice you made when you
left this earth?
Speaker 1 (36:23):
I think that'd be a question that I'd love to hear
the answer to, if we somehowcould you know it's interesting
about everything you just said,we talk about just like how much
time we have left.
Do take time for your family,do take time for yourself, et
cetera.
And when I think about thatcause I have contemplated my own
mortality at times more, as oflate, only because of how many
people that I've, you know,starting to lose yeah, you're
(36:44):
starting to lose some people,and you know some of them are
younger than I am.
So then I'm just like I thinkabout that.
You know, my only concern, mybiggest fear, is not man, I need
to take more time for me.
It does the opposite.
So what it does for me?
It tells me to go faster andharder and do more, because I'm
not comfortable yet with wheremy family is.
(37:05):
So if I leave them, I haven'tdone enough.
So instead of me saying, oh, Ineed a break because I don't
want to croak, I leave them, Ihaven't done enough.
So instead of me saying, oh, Ineed a break because I don't
want to croak, I'm going, shit,I need to go harder until I get
to where I feel that they'reokay, then I can take my foot
off the gas.
But do you see the fallacy inthat?
Of course I do.
That's what I'm saying.
That's my biggest fear and Iunderstand how.
You know how warped thatmentality is, that mindset is.
Speaker 2 (37:30):
Can you?
Speaker 1 (37:31):
you know how warped that mentality is, that mindset
is, can you?
Speaker 2 (37:33):
find some productivity in your hobbies.
I used to be able to do that.
Let's say, we go to a golfcourse you, me, we, we nick,
everybody, we all, we all stepoff to the golf course.
Right, we could be on the golfcourse hitting balls, having
great conversation, talkingabout business, talking about
our families, talking aboutparenting all these same
conversations.
But out on the golf course,decompressing, having that good
time, and you're getting valueout of that, those conversations
(37:53):
.
You're getting value out ofthat decompression, that time
away.
Speaker 3 (37:56):
You're telling us bring you, I'm going to go play
golf with you guys, but you guysgot to bring me 20 lead, 20 hot
leads, that when I leave thisgolf course, I can call them all
and they'll listen to.
You know what it is that I haveto say.
Speaker 2 (38:08):
Or I give you some advice on how to expand the
podcast, or you give him someadvice on how to be a better
lawyer.
There's value in thatcamaraderie and interacting and
those hobbies together, but wenever take the time to do that
because, like I said, we shameourselves and we're shamed by
society for coming togetherhaving those moments.
Speaker 1 (38:26):
Very good point.
Yeah, I could see how thatwould be beneficial.
Speaker 2 (38:29):
We used to do that, like when we used to go on like
we were.
We was in a tribe, we would gohunting, we would knock down an
antelope or a Buffalo orwhatever and we'd sit around a
fire at night and we'd talkabout parenting, we'd talk about
our relationships with ourwives and spouses before we
dragged the Buffalo back to theplan.
Yeah, we would have thosemoments, we'd have that get
together.
We don't do that no more.
Speaker 3 (38:48):
For me, being a part of a fraternity, and there are
times where I won't go aroundthe bros for months because,
like you said, I don't feel likeI'm performing up to the level
or I don't feel like that mygoals and the things that I'm
doing.
I deserve that time to be ableto go hang out with the bros
like that.
But every time I go around themI feel energized.
Every time it's not been onetime I've gone around them and
(39:10):
I've not been poured back intoit.
So I feel like we have to takeadvantage of what we have.
Some people do church or somepeople do the mentoring Like
when we go to our mentoringsessions.
I'm always made better forgoing to our mentoring sessions
Me and the kids.
They do more for me than I dofor them.
Speaker 1 (39:27):
I even used to use it as a reward, a metric.
So for me, when I was in alarmsales, I would say until I get a
certain amount in one day, Idon't get to play golf.
You know, I used to do thingslike that and that would push me
really, get me going.
It worked but it would drive meinsane because you know, as you
(39:47):
could imagine, you know there'smany, many days that I got to
six and I didn't get to sevenand, by the way, the average is
one.
It's a way to kind of driveourselves more and more and more
, but I'm not sure that the tollthat it takes on us, it's worth
it.
Speaker 3 (40:13):
You remember that tall tale that we have that folk
hero, john Henry, where hedecided that he was going to go
up against the steel drivingmachine.
He wanted to prove.
You know what I'm talking about?
Still, no, so, uh, john Henry,the steel driving John here, the
steel driving man.
No.
So, when they were laying therailroads, they used to the
means to go out and drive thespikes, drive the spikes, drive
the spikes.
And there was this one man,john Henry.
He was like 10 times the manright and he just drive a spike
with one swoop.
It was boom is.
Speaker 4 (40:27):
Is this a real story?
Speaker 3 (40:28):
No, it's a folk story .
Okay, so they came up with asteel driving machine and a
steel driving machine.
They were bragging about it,like how efficient it was and
how it could replace everybodyon the railroad right.
And so John Henry said, well, Iguarantee you, you know, you
set a time limit, I'll go upagainst the machine and I'll
prove that a man has more heartand can do more than a machine.
So he goes up against themachine and they're working on
(40:49):
the machine, oiling the machinedown, making sure it's whatever,
and John Henry's just going,he's just going, he's just going
, he's going.
And at the end they look andthey say, well, the machine lays
, I'm just throwing it out there.
They laid three miles of track.
John Henry laid three miles anda quarter of track, but then
John Henry's, over there on theside, passed out with a heart
attack.
He died, he died, he killedhimself to prove that he was
(41:11):
better than the machine.
And like that's a folk storythat we're told as kids, Pace
yourself.
That's what.
That's what I got out of it.
Speaker 1 (41:17):
Gotcha, gotcha.
Speaker 3 (41:18):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (41:18):
To kind of wrap it up , it's a three part question
what hobbies do you have ifyou've neglected those hobbies
for a little while, and whatwould you recommend to people?
Speaker 3 (41:29):
So with me.
I game now, but I miss huntingand fishing man.
And when I say hunting, I'm nottalking about like safari God,
I'm talking about man just goingthrough the woods.
You're shooting a deer no witha 410 and shoot some squirrels
out of trees Like that's.
To me, that's enough, I don'tneed to go any deeper than that.
And also fishing man.
Fishing has been such a hugepart of my family and our
(41:52):
history and our culture, who weare.
I want to actually pass thatdown to my son, but me, being up
here in Atlanta, I don't get achance to really do that.
When I go back home I'm in andout.
So at some point I want to beable to get my boat back and be
able to take my son out thereand my daughter and show them
how to fish and show them allthe things that my parents
taught me.
So that's something I reallywant to get back to make a nice
(42:15):
week out of it, yeah, week, yeah, yeah, yeah, man, you know
vacation yeah, it's like thattype.
Speaker 1 (42:20):
I want to get with you one day and learn how to
fish.
That's cool.
Never fished.
Let me know when you're ready.
Speaker 3 (42:25):
I know I know you're laughing right now.
Hey, I ain't going to bait yourhook and I ain't going to take
your fish off, but I woulddefinitely.
Speaker 1 (42:31):
Well, I just need to know what I'm doing, just so you
know what?
Speaker 4 (42:33):
do I I got you, so it's not something I've.
I said I want to learn too.
I heard it was real liketherapeutic and stuff, but I've
never been Crazy.
Speaker 1 (42:41):
Yeah, he's like no one showed you this.
I'm like, no, I've never gonefishing.
Keep in mind where I grew upagain New York City.
It's not something we did.
Now, obviously, if you wantedto make time for it, you could
there's plenty of water outthere but never done it.
So yeah, yeah, I definitelyrecommend fishing.
All right, what about you?
G?
Speaker 2 (42:58):
I still go out obstacle racing and that's an
opportunity to get together witha bunch of other guys.
You can compete against them,it against you, you have a good
laugh and talk about it.
My main thing as far as hobbiesgo is you should do hobbies
that help you to interact and besocial with people and also
give you the opportunity to runideas by other men Like.
I think you should have malehobbies.
(43:19):
You know, I don't think thereshould be a lot of women around.
As far as the hobbies go, itshouldn't be something that
necessarily that your familyparticipates in.
It should just be somethingthat you can do with you and
your boys and you can step backand get that advice, that
recharge, that information thatyou want from other men, from
what they're going through.
You can talk about it, stufflike that.
I think hobbies is more of acommunal social thing for men.
(43:42):
What my point is and I don'teven think it necessarily needs
to be anything extravagant, itdoesn't have to be anything
crazy, something expensive oranything like that.
It's just an opportunity to gettogether, just sitting around
on the deck, fishing, have youever read the book the Way of
Men?
I have not.
Speaker 4 (43:55):
I feel like you would like it Real quick.
What's it about Basically?
It talks about manhood, likeour ancestry, like things that
are just in our DNA.
It kind of talks about it'sokay being a man Now.
It's okay being a man now thisgeneration, or just how it's
been.
They kind of make masculinitytoxic in a way.
Men are afraid to be real men.
Yeah, and it's all right to bea man, like it's in your dna.
Speaker 2 (44:17):
Yeah, back then that's what you are.
Yeah, is it the way of thesuperior man?
Speaker 4 (44:21):
or is it?
No, no, I know that book, butit's called the way of men.
Speaker 2 (44:24):
Yeah, way of men, I've never heard that okay what
about yourself, man?
Speaker 1 (44:27):
what hobbies do you have or did you have?
What do you want to go back toand what would you recommend?
I want to go back to umbasketball.
Speaker 4 (44:35):
Basketball is something I always used to play
and I always talk about it likeman.
One weekend I need to go outthere and do it, but I just
don't do it and I'm in pain whenI do it afterwards now.
But yeah, that and likeprobably finding a boxing gym
and just getting back into that.
Speaker 1 (44:51):
And you're a little young to be in pain after you
work out.
Speaker 4 (44:53):
I don't know, it's like my body, not the same.
Speaker 2 (44:56):
I always think that Listen at it, listen at it now,
if you don't lose it you lose it.
You lose it.
Speaker 4 (45:03):
Yeah, the problem is you're not games outside in the
sun and then now, after one, twogames, I'm like dang these.
The same knees ankles I had,yeah, sir health is wealth too.
Speaker 2 (45:14):
You know you got to keep yourself up, especially
when you're young.
Start maintaining your body.
Yeah, so by the time you're oldman like us, you know you'd be
good, please, bro, please.
Speaker 1 (45:22):
It's crazy because, like I said earlier, I said like
I haven't been in the gym in along time.
I just started going back threeweeks ago.
One of the biggest drivers forme me going with my son.
I take so much joy in liketaking him to the gym.
So now he's lifting weights,he's working out and it's really
, really cool and I can't waitto see him start to transform.
So it's going to be prettyexciting to see that.
But the most important thing wegot out of this conversation, I
(45:44):
think is think, is just to makesure that we do understand that
we are also a priority.
I heard someone say it best.
They said you know, at the endof the day, when you come to
this planet, you have one humanthat you're supposed to treat
better than any other human andit's the body you occupy.
And as men we don't do that allright.
So cool earlier today who lost?
(46:04):
You didn't flip before, oh shit, let's flip I'll go.
I won't do it.
I love that.
Okay, so we're gonna pretendthat we flipped the coin.
We didn't flip a coin, butlet's say, you lost that coin.
Speaker 3 (46:15):
Toss my brother so, dre, who you gonna be?
I am going to be presidentbarack obama all right let me
know when you're ready.
Shit, let's go for it, man.
My fellow Americans, pleasesupport us by following the show
(46:35):
.
Leave us a five-star review onApple Podcasts.
Thank you so much for listening.
We'll catch you next week,where we share conversations
surrounding real issues that we,as black men, deal with every
(46:56):
day.
Manhood Matters Obama out,obama out, let's go.
We'll see you next time.
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