July 28, 2025 • 54 mins
"Forgiveness doesn't have to be you going to somebody and saying 'I forgive you.' Forgiveness is a choice you make." These powerful words from Mark Monplaisir cut to the heart of healing generational trauma in the Black community.
In this profound conversation, organizational psychologist and author Mark Monplaisir joins us to discuss his book "Strong Women, Fed Up Men, Defeated Sons, Broken Daughters: Healing Generational Pain." Mark shares his deeply personal journey of growing up without his biological father and the anger that consumed him until a therapist asked the transformative question: "Who are you punishing?" The answer wasn't his absent father—it was himself.
We explore how historical trauma from slavery continues to shape Black relationships today. Black men and women often view each other as sources of pain rather than partners in healing. Mark expertly breaks down how these dynamics play out in modern relationships, from expectations around providing and protecting to the different standards applied to interracial relationships. His guidance on moving from blame to understanding offers a pathway forward: "It's not your fault, but it is your responsibility."
The conversation dives into practical approaches to healing—creating safe spaces for vulnerability, practicing self-care without guilt, and engaging in honest dialogue with our children. Mark shares how he regularly asks his daughter, "What can I do to be a better dad?"—a simple yet powerful practice that transforms parent-child relationships. We discuss the balance between addressing structural barriers and taking personal responsibility for our healing journey.
Whether you're struggling with forgiveness, trying to break unhealthy relationship patterns, or seeking to create a healthier foundation for your children, this episode provides both the understanding and practical tools to move forward. Listen now and take the first step toward healing your generational pain.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
I've never met my biological father.
Yeah, like I was carrying somuch guilt, so much anger, so
much resentment, and I washurting myself.
I couldn't sleep.
My relationship with women wasso unhealthy because I didn't
care.
Yeah, I just wanted to hurtpeople.
And so the therapist told mewho are you punishing?
And I said I'm punishing himfor what he did.
(00:21):
And he said no, you'repunishing yourself.
How Well, who's hurting?
Forgiveness doesn't have to beyou going to somebody and say I
forgive you.
Forgiveness is a choice youmake, and so from that moment on
, right.
Speaker 2 (00:35):
Today we have Zoe Murphy returning to the pod for
the second week in a row andjoining us all the way from New
York, mr Mark Monplaisir.
Mark is an organizationalpsychologist, wellness coach,
public speaker, just to name afew, but he's also authored a
couple of books.
Be sure to check out the shownotes to see his body of work
(00:58):
and to follow him on socialmedia.
Now we all have trauma in ourlives and this continues to
plague us Even after we thoughtwe had moved on.
Trauma affects everyrelationship we have, be it with
our friends, parents, our mostintimate relationships and,
perhaps the most concerning ofall, our children.
(01:20):
In his book Strong Women, fedUp Men, defeated Sons, broken
Daughters, mark masterfullyexposes the reasons we have
struggled by using his personalstory of forgiveness, resilience
, pain, in addition to hisacademic research and amazing
talent to simplify all of it sothat the rest of us can use this
(01:43):
resource in the most practicalway.
Our relationships, especiallyin the black community, have
challenges that have deep roots.
It's not always just your fault, as Mark brilliantly explains.
It's not your fault, but it isyour responsibility.
This gives you the tools.
The issues have roots frombefore you were even born.
(02:04):
You are a mosaic of hundreds ofpeople.
You've inherited their DNA,their habits, their pain.
But if you want to learn how toimprove those relationships,
especially with the family thatyou created, listen to this
episode all the way through andplease share it with your
partner and anyone else youthink this might benefit.
(02:25):
Welcome to Manhood Matters.
Let's get to it.
We have with us in the studiotoday our our very special guest
(02:48):
, mark Montplaisir.
I'm here with my boy, zoleMurphy, as well, but Mark's
written a book and I had tospeed read this thing, bro, and
I got to tell you I've learnedso much and I'm going to let you
explain.
Just give us a quick overviewof what it's about, because it's
a conversation we absolutelyhave to have.
You know what's cool?
I'll say this about your book Ithink everyone at 20 years old
(03:11):
should be given a copy, I thinkif you're a black man or woman?
especially women, I'm going tosay because there's certain
things where I wanted to kind ofquote your book and be like
babe, come read this, and we hada little disagreement or
whatever, and I'm like I kind ofwant to communicate it this way
and I don't have the words, Idon't have the tools and the
resources.
I feel like I'm not gettingthrough and reading your words.
(03:31):
I think those are tools thatanyone could use and if a man
and woman in a relationshiptogether both read it
individually and then cometogether, man, it could be some
powerful stuff.
But before we start I got toask you one question, man.
Yes, why the hell is the titleso long bro?
Speaker 1 (03:51):
I wanted people to read it and get shocked by it,
you know.
But, man, that was one of thebest endorsement and
introduction ever.
All right, well, hey, man, itwas so hard.
I appreciate that, I appreciatethat.
Speaker 2 (04:03):
So the name of the book is Strong Women, fed Up Men
, defeated Sons I'm still goingBroken Daughters Healing
Generational.
Speaker 1 (04:13):
Pain.
Yeah, that's the dynamic wehave in a lot of our communities
, and so I wanted people to readit and get a sense of oh wow,
this has been my experience,right, just based on okay, I'm a
fed up man, right, whateverthat means for you.
I'm a defeated son, whateverthat means for you.
I'm a strong woman, right,whatever that means for you.
(04:33):
Ever since I was a kid, I wasalways curious about why people
think that what they do, whythey do the things that they do,
and I wanted to understand it,and so I started reading things
that they do and I wanted tounderstand it, and so I started
reading I love talking to people, right, just to get a sense of
their stories, right,understanding who they are.
How did they grow up, right,how did that play into them
being who they are today?
(04:54):
And even my own, you know myown story.
I wanted to understand myself,and so I was married, got
divorced in 2019.
And I remember I went to Miamithat same week.
I moved out separated and itwas my birthday weekend.
I got to get away.
I got to just kind of regainyourself, right, reprocess and
then refocus right.
(05:14):
Recenter all of that, and whenI got to Miami and I remember
that night it was a Friday nightI'm in the hotel room, it was
pouring and I started listeningto gospel music and then I
started playing TD Jakes andsomething came over me.
I started bawling, just crying,and I was crying from like
(05:35):
maybe 11, 8 pm to about fouro'clock in the morning.
Yeah, yeah, right, I startedpraying and then it was almost
like a revelation.
Something said you need towrite a book.
And I got back to New YorkSunday night and that same night
I started writing.
Like I remember, I startedwriting on my phone and I didn't
know what I was going to writeabout.
Speaker 2 (05:55):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (05:55):
But it was just that spirit said you need to write a
book.
And then when I started writing, I was like, okay, well, IDs
are coming, they're coming to me, Right.
And so I gave myself a schedule.
Every weekend I'd spend likeseven, eight hours, oh wow,
Saturday, Sunday, just writing,right.
And then, as I started tostructure the book, I wanted to
(06:20):
get more stories and so Istarted interviewing clients.
So I was doing mental healthcoaching at the time and I'm
like, well, let me talk to thisclient just to get a sense of
her, like real story.
Like what would she say to heryounger self?
What would she do if she hadn'tlearned different?
Right, If her foundation wasdifferent?
How would that have changed herdynamic right now?
And as you can see in the book,there are stories about people
sharing okay, well, you know,like writing letters to
(06:42):
themselves.
And so, based on what I'velearned having interviews,
hearing people's stories I cantell you.
When people ask me about thebook, like what was your process
, I'm like I don't know.
I was so inspired I was beingfed the words.
Yeah, I was being fed the wordsand when.
So I gave myself about a year.
(07:02):
I started in August, startedwriting it and it was done the
next, the following august, Ihad a beta readers, like people
reading the book.
Just a little, let me know whatyou think.
Does it make sense, right?
Do you think it aligns withpeople's stories?
Because I'm like it's my story.
Sure, a lot of it, right, andit's.
It's a lot of people's storiesthat I grew up with and seeing
(07:23):
their dynamics and getting tounderstand who they are.
But I'm like let me get a truefeedback from people.
People were crying.
Speaker 2 (07:29):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (07:30):
I mean, they read the book, they were crying, they
were like this is my story.
I was never aware of it, butthis was my experience.
And so, from understanding eventhe foundations we inherited
from slavery, right tounderstanding how we've been
taught, we've been conditionedto see ourselves a certain way.
And now we learning purpose, welearning forgiveness, right.
(07:57):
We learning, you know,generational pain, we learning
to see our parents not just asour parents, but as a man and a
woman, right?
What have we learned that wecan actually unlearn so we can
create our own dynamic?
And so the book has been verypowerful in that sense.
And it's also at the librariespublic libraries in New York
because somebody was like thisbook needs to be at the library,
it needs to be at school,having gotten into the school
(08:19):
system, yet.
That's why I said this was oneof the best endorsements,
because people read the book andwas like, well, this is
powerful.
Yeah, because many of us havenever heard stuff like this
before.
Many of us never really tooktime to even think about the
foundation that we inherited,right, whether it's from our
parents or if we want to take itall the way back from slavery.
Talking about self-awareness,talking about generational
(08:42):
awareness.
Talking about culturalawareness, self-awareness,
talking about generationalawareness.
Talking about culturalawareness how can we actually
learn what those things are,those detrimental patterns,
unhealthy traditions?
And then we can unlearn whatthey are, so we can make room
for something healthier.
Speaker 2 (08:56):
The reason you had that reaction from a lot of
people is because I think we aremade to believe at times that
our story is unique.
When I was going through it, Ibelieve I was the only one.
I was in a very unhappy,unhealthy relationship because
of both sides, because I had mybrokenness and my issues and I
didn't recognize them and shehad hers and we got together and
(09:17):
I'm supposed to be youreverything.
No, I'm not that you know so.
Then it's all these differentthings.
And again, if I had the toolsto understand that and deal with
it.
So, yes, and people will lookat that, and people will look at
their stories, but they canfind themselves in your stories.
But what I love about it too.
You just said this is my story.
I slightly disagree.
Well, I don't disagree, it isyour story.
(09:38):
But here's what I found inreading the book it's your story
accompanied by an instructionmanual that goes along with
every step.
It breaks it down.
If I get into a fight with mywife right now about the rice is
too hot or too salty orwhatever it is, that's not
really what that fight is about.
That fight is about somethingmuch deeper.
So the way you communicate andyou resolve any conflict is you
(10:01):
have to really understand whatis the initial conflict or
what's the reason for it.
So I think that's what I loveabout your book, because your
book goes back to explaining why.
You know, we had this episode onHaiti, when we talked about the
reasons Haiti is the way it isis because of X, y and Z.
Now you can understand whypeople are the way they are.
Well, if I know why, not what'swrong with me, but the trauma,
(10:22):
the generational trauma, the DNA, what's been imprinted.
You know, I'm a mosaic ofhundreds of ancestors, you know.
And then here I am and so isthis other person, and they had
their own shit to deal with.
And then you break it down bygoing way, way, way back, even
when you talk about, hey, thisis how the masters addressed the
(10:43):
slaves, and then, when we gotour freedom, that's how we
address our children, not thehealthy way, I didn't want to
talk about slavery, and you know, and as you can see, it's
really brief.
Speaker 1 (10:54):
The first chapter talks about the foundation.
We can get lost in that right,but I wanted us to understand.
We didn't create this.
This may not be our fault, butwe're still responsible.
Even though we didn't createthis, this may not be our fault,
but we're still responsibleeven though we didn't create it
right.
Speaker 2 (11:11):
I like that, and so so so go ahead.
Speaker 1 (11:21):
So.
So we have to understand justbecause somebody gave me a story
, a foundation, doesn't meanthat I have to keep building on
it.
I can still go and scrape thatbottom and start building
differently.
If it's crooked, I can stilladd layers to make it straight.
That way, I can build what Iwant.
Even when we're talking aboutour parents, we have to look at
their dynamic, because theytaught us to be a version of
themselves, and that's somethingI had to do.
(11:42):
Look at my mom and even mygrandparents, and I'll talk
about that.
I think I talked about it inbook when I had to go to Haiti
in 2008, because I lost who.
I was right, I lost me, so Ineeded to go back to where I
came from, right To who raisedme, so I could get a sense of.
You know what.
This is the foundation you weregiven.
I have to learn to be objectiveand say you know what?
(12:04):
I still love you as my mom, butyou weren't perfect.
The way you raised me was notperfect.
So now, what can I do aboutthat?
Because I'm not blaming you.
That's what you knew.
That's what you had.
I had a conversation with mymom a few years ago, she's very
loving to my daughter and I saidwell, you've actually never
told me you love me, wow.
And she said well, you'veactually never told me you love
me.
And she said I know, becausewhen I was growing up I didn't
(12:26):
even know love was a thing.
Wow.
And that broke me.
Yeah, I was like well, I amsorry, but I love you.
And so I had to learn toempathize with her experience so
I could actually forgive her.
Our communities right Oftentimes.
It's not necessarily that a lotof the things that we do are
wrong.
They're different becausethat's what we know, right, but
(12:48):
they're unhealthy.
Oftentimes, when we see thingsas wrong or right you know right
and wrong then we tend to notface them, because then we
associate those things with ouressence.
Right.
But if we can say, well, thisis unhealthy, then I have to
look at that thing and notnecessarily me.
Right, I'm always going to bethis person, but what I do can
(13:08):
be different.
So that first chapter talksabout what we were given that
foundation.
We have to face it.
And even when I talk aboutlearning our history, we may not
know exactly all the details,but we have to know this is not
who we are.
We have to know those unhealthypatterns of hating ourselves or
not seeing beauty when we lookat somebody of African descent
(13:32):
who has dark skin.
We have to understand thosethings.
Those are not who we are.
Those are things that we weregiven and we were taught and so
we have to confront them.
And when we can do it we canactually step.
You know, step back and say youknow what I'm great.
And one thing as a Christian, Isee myself as an image of God,
(13:54):
not the image stature you knowwhite folks want us to see as
God, but for me, like havingthat spiritual being where you
can't see God.
So my perception of myself isgreatness, because God is great.
My perception of myself is I'mloving, because I see God as a
loving God.
I can still be tough, I canstill hold power right.
(14:15):
In fact, I hold power becausenobody can take that from me and
it's a choice that has to bebased from learning what we were
taught that were unhealthy towhat we choosing to build as our
own foundation.
Speaker 3 (14:27):
Right.
You know, I think the thingthat we are often accused of is
being victim minded.
We hear that all the time, butwe have to understand that we
are not looking to get anythingfor free, and we're also not
looking to ascribe blame so thatpeople can feel bad, because
there is, in fact, a differencebetween fault and responsibility
(14:49):
.
Fault just means the reason whywe got here.
There is a series ofcircumstances that led to our
present situation, becauseotherwise and this would be the
thing that we really couldcircle back to talk to at some
point in time but there's anassumption with some of our
racist voices in this world thatthere's just something wrong
with us.
I'm talking about blackeverything.
(15:11):
They called it a shitholecountry as a general term, as an
equivocation to any place thatcranks out brown people.
You know what I mean.
So we didn't do this toourselves, but we can't wait for
the people who did it to us topull us from the position.
Yeah, right, and that.
I think that applies to ourrelationships with our women.
Yeah, that applies to ourpositioning in the world.
(15:33):
Now, mind you, the people whofought it is don't want to hear
any parts of it.
It doesn't matter what metricwe use to appeal to their sense
of good judgment or kindness.
To appeal to their sense ofgood judgment or kindness.
I've been giving thought tothis.
When it comes down to EuropeanAmericans, we have to recognize
that we are dealing with thedescendants of Vikings.
They're very proud of that.
But if we look at the Vikingculture, you have to recognize
(15:57):
that.
What was the goal?
To make it to Valhalla?
And there were two ways to doso, and that was in some or that
was at the end of a blade.
So this sense of sex andviolence being relegated to
black folks is silly all right.
Speaker 2 (16:14):
So, mark, I got a question for you.
You highlight historicaltraumas role in shaping fed up
men right and defeated sons.
Yeah.
So how does this collectivepain distort masculinity in
today's black men?
Speaker 1 (16:28):
Well, that's a great question let's go back to,
especially when we're talkingabout the Americas right,
Whether it's here in the US orJamaica or even Haiti when you
look at how black men used to betreated, you were still a boy.
You could be 60 years old.
You were a boy.
Because of that treatment, alot of again we're taking it
(16:48):
back to slavery and I'll bringit back to more modern.
Because of that treatment, youwere never really almost like
allowed to be a man.
Going back to a son.
You're working in the field,you're doing all these things
and oftentimes it's never enough.
You can never work hard enough.
You can never produce enough.
When we think that we're notgetting it right and we keep
(17:10):
trying, that leads to defeat,and at that point it's like, man
, I've been working so hard mywhole life and it still doesn't
amount to anything.
You get fed up.
Frustration, Right, A lot offrustration, and so for a lot of
(17:33):
men, oftentimes we get intothis cocoon where we're like you
know what I'll drink, you know,revert to women or violence, or
just just give up.
But even when we look at the60s right, where men could not
be in the house because of thesystem, we've always been seen
as what we can do, what we canproduce, what we can provide.
We've always been seen as whatwe can do, what we can produce,
what we can provide, and so alot of those narratives have
been passed down.
If you're not providinghappiness or financial provision
, whatever it is right, You'renot a real man.
(17:55):
The way this shows up now, a lotof boys are growing up in homes
where they're the man of thehouse.
Yeah, At 10 years old, at 12year olds right Like they become
the man of the house.
Yeah, A 10 years old, a 12 yearolds right Like they become the
man of the house.
Yeah, Five year olds, you don'tknow how to be a man, let's talk
about it.
Five year olds, right, the onlyboy.
Right, you don't know how to bea man and I'm not.
I'm not even talking aboutproviding.
(18:16):
It's just the sense that if, upwith a single mom, you want to
protect, that is not your job.
Again, remember, they take onthat role or the role has been
placed on them, and because theycan't meet the needs of that
role, they have a lot ofconfusion, they defeated because
, again, you don't know whatyou're doing.
You are a boy.
(18:36):
This is not your role.
If they're doing somethingright, if they say they break
something down and they'retrying to put it back together,
they keep trying, to keep trying.
They can't do it.
Eventually they'll break iteven more or they just give up
and that's where the defeatcomes in.
And so, when we look at,especially relationally right, a
lot of young boys, that is nottheir forte to build
(18:57):
relationships at a young age.
Speaker 2 (18:59):
So then when they are told they're not masculine
enough or they have toxicmasculinity, does that come?
Speaker 1 (19:06):
from that it does, because we have a poor sense of
what masculinity is.
Yes, right, break it down forus.
So okay.
So, especially in the blackcommunity, I love my black
people either way.
Right, I love my black folks.
This book's for them.
Speaker 2 (19:18):
This is us trying to do better, exactly.
Speaker 1 (19:21):
Exactly, and I wrote the book for my people right For
us yeah, the thing is weassociate masculinity with
toughness, with authority, right, that's not what masculinity is
.
Masculinity is me taking careof the folks around me, it's me
being responsible Service,exactly right.
It's me serving others, right?
(19:42):
So, as a man, when we talkabout provision and protecting,
I am serving my community, I'mserving my household, I'm
serving my people.
But because of Europeanstandard, we want black men to
be like white men.
What's the distinction?
Behave the way they provide.
But we're not looking at whatwas you know where we started,
(20:12):
right, right, we're not lookingat the fact that you know the
the European community had 20steps ahead of us.
Speaker 2 (20:16):
So our financial exactly Right.
Speaker 1 (20:17):
It's 200 steps, right , right.
We never took time to actuallybuild together, to actually
understand one another.
So now you have this modernculture of toxic masculinity
that black people didn't invent.
By the way, when this wholething about toxic masculinity
was invented, they were talkingabout crappy men who were using
(20:38):
money to intimidate, tomanipulate and abuse people.
Speaker 3 (20:42):
You did a great job of not using the words or the
names.
You're a good man, right.
Speaker 1 (20:47):
So now we embrace it and we again, we owning it, we
claiming it, and that's onething we know.
We may talk about that too.
We tend to claim things thatdon't belong to us, to describe
us, to associate with us, andthat is very detrimental Give me
an example of that.
Well, I mean so, even when wetalk about the tax of
masculinity.
Speaker 2 (21:07):
Gotcha, gotcha.
Speaker 1 (21:09):
Yeah, that's a big example of it Right.
And so.
But we embrace the narrativesthat have been created by other
people.
Anytime a word is trending, Irefuse to use it, To embrace it.
I refuse because it's nothealthy.
There is no substance in itright.
Speaker 2 (21:26):
And to stay on topic, so say, a black woman gets with
a white guy, her expectationsof that guy are very different.
White guy doesn't have toperform as well, because it's
all a performance from us,mostly men, because we have to
do X, y and Z.
I'm not saying that women don'thave their own set of
performances, but they show moregrace, more patience.
All black men are this, allblack men are that.
(21:46):
So talk to us about that,because you really did a great
job of explaining why that isand what their expectations were
in the first place.
Right, right.
Speaker 1 (21:54):
Yeah, if we take it all the way back, we have to
look at how, back then, blackwomen saw white men.
They were powerful, they werethe providers.
They Back then black women, sawwhite men.
They were powerful, they werethe providers, they were the
protectors, they were the menwho actually had resources, and
so that created a falseperception of black men.
Right, you can't protect me,right, you can't provide for me
(22:16):
because we were both slaves.
Right, and so, moving forward,we look at each other as the
source of our pain.
Even as a man, if I'm walkingdown the street I see a black
man in, you know, in hoodie andin saggy pants, automatically
I'm like, well, I'm not safe.
The spotty senses go up alittle bit.
Exactly, and again, we'retaught those things.
Yeah, and so when we get inrelationships, even so, when,
(22:39):
say, black women get into arelationship with a white man,
automatically she feels safe,despite the fact that they were
the abusers.
Right, they were the killers,the lynchers, but she'll see him
as a safe space because, well,I've been told that you know,
black men are dangerous, thatblack men can't protect me,
they're the ones hurting me.
So now you don't feel safe,right, with a black man and your
(23:01):
guards up.
You have to be, you know youhave to show up guarded.
But when you get with the whiteman and you feel like well,
they provide, they take care oftheir family, I don't have to
worry, even if that's not thecase.
But that initial perception.
I'm safe means I don't have tobe aggressive.
I'm safe means you get a pass.
I'm safe means you're not going.
Imagine, right.
(23:27):
Imagine you're a black woman,right?
You're getting abused by yourslave master.
Speaker 2 (23:33):
The black man can't do anything to help you and I'm
supposed to be a protector.
I'm supposed to be a protector.
Speaker 1 (23:39):
Right, helpless.
So that leads to resentment.
Yeah, where were you, wherewere you?
I was hurting, I was being.
You know the R word.
Yeah, you never did anything.
So how can I trust you toactually protect me?
Now and again, those things arenot being said out loud,
they're inherited.
They're passed down fromgenerations to generations
without even being taught,because their behavior is there,
(24:01):
their mindset is there, theirfeelings are there.
Black men do it too.
They get with a white woman.
Their perception of thatrelationship is different.
Speaker 2 (24:09):
She's softer, she's more feminine, she's more more
cooperative.
She listens to me exactly.
I can lead without resistance.
Exactly so I show up.
We forget why our women wereresistant exactly to begin with
yes, yes, so you.
Speaker 1 (24:23):
So, again, we have to understand where we come from
and we have to get rid of thosenarratives so we can actually
you know what?
Let I see you.
We went through the same thing.
Now it's our time to actuallyheal together, right, but we
both have to be in the samespace where we actually accept
that we're hurting.
Yes, those things happen.
(24:44):
Yes, I inherited those.
Yes, those were the experiences.
Yes, my parents never taught methat.
But what can I do now?
How can I actually have healthyrelationships with the people
around me?
Do I keep using the same toolsand traditions and patterns that
have been passed down fromgenerations to generations, or
(25:04):
do I stop the buck?
I'm choosing to be different.
I'm choosing to do differently.
Speaker 2 (25:09):
Yeah.
So let me ask you this, becausethis is your space as well
Awareness alone doesn't changebehavior.
Knowing it doesn't mean youchange.
So what are some tangiblepractices that you can adopt or
you would recommend that otheryoung men adopt in order to heal
and combat those generationalwounds, especially in young men,
I think?
Speaker 3 (25:29):
that one of the things that we don't do as young
black men is pay attention toself-love.
I think we had talked about ita bit earlier.
Right, we're husbands andfathers and our lives have been
predicated in service always, sowe are always on the grind.
We are always looking to takecare of everyone and everything.
We don't turn around and takecare of us.
(25:51):
The thought was that takingcare of everyone and everything,
we don't turn around and takecare of us.
The thought was that takingcare of ourselves was selfish.
When you really give yourselfsome love, say, you know, I'm
going to look into therapy.
I'm going to look into askingmyself the questions as to why I
do the things that I do and whyhave I established some of the
patterns that I have?
Why do I have these habits?
Right, and then coming up withreasonable answers and looking
(26:12):
at the things that arebeneficial and the things that
are not, you can figure outwhere to eat the fish and spit
out the bones and then, once youreally attribute that time to
loving on yourself, I think thenatural outgrowth of it is going
to just be to spill over ontothe people around you.
You know, that was a greatquestion how Take care of you
first?
When you're getting into a goodplace, you're just going to
have a full cup, and out of thatfullness you will find the
(26:36):
ability to be creative and kindand generous, and thoughtful.
Speaker 2 (26:41):
So what's the balance ?
So we can still practice thatsacrificial love, but not have
resentment for the people thatwe're practicing it for.
So there's a balance, so thatwe don't burn out.
Speaker 3 (26:52):
I'd reject the idea of sacrificial love being
necessary.
I think that it is rooted in aJudeo-Christian construct and
this is with respect to thefaith.
I spent 25 years as anevangelical Christian and I
recognize that the demonstrationof love is evidenced by
(27:14):
sacrifice in the cases of Christ, and I think that that has
transpired into our culture.
Whereas the man, as the head ofthe household, is to love his
wife as Christ loves the church,and that's evidenced by
sacrifice, meaning so that I gowithout, so that you can have.
I don't think that that is thebest way to lead.
And even in the old Africanproverb, what do we say to one
(27:35):
another to check up on eachother?
We don't say how have you beendoing.
We ask how are the children?
I don't think there's ever aplace where we needed to, where
we were allowed time to chooseself first, and it sounds
selfish, but if you don't refillyour own tank first.
You sounds selfish, but if youdon't refill your own tank first
, you're going to be pouringfrom an empty cup and I don't
think that's selfish.
I think it's setting everybodyup for failure.
Speaker 1 (27:56):
Yeah, so can I just add something?
Of course, yeah, For me, theway I look at the sacrificial
love right, If you think ofleadership, it's a
responsibility.
It's not just a position.
It's a responsibility where youhave to make sure that your
subordinates are good, you know,they're provided for, they're
(28:18):
protected.
It doesn't mean you first oryou only.
It means you too.
So we're talking aboutself-care and self-love.
It doesn't mean that you onlytake care of you.
You take care of you so you cantake care of those around you
right.
Even when we're talking abouthaving that balance or even
providing that sacrificial love,it's sharing in a sense of
leadership.
I am taking on thisresponsibility to make sure that
(28:38):
you good, to make sure I coveryou right.
But for me to be able to coveryou, I actually do have to have
me covered right.
And for me, I believe that Godis covering me and I also look
at me if I'm not at my best,that I'm doing God a disservice
right.
And so I have to make sure thatif I am in a space to protect
(29:01):
and provide for my family or mymentees, or whether it's a group
, I'm leading a church, I haveto make sure I'm good right
Because I'm doing God's work,even in relationships.
Right, it's not my relationship,I'm managing a relationship for
God.
Right Because at any moment itcan be taken away if it's just
about me.
When you see it that way, youdon't see yourself as not
(29:24):
receiving.
Because even if I share withthe folks around me in my
community, right In my household, my friends, I don't look to
receive anything in return.
Right, Not even a thank you.
If I want to share my best,like with my daughter, I have to
be my best.
I exercise because I don't wantmy daughter to wake up, you
know, one day when I'm like 60and she has to take care of me.
(29:45):
Yes, and that's love, that's meprotecting her.
Speaker 3 (29:49):
And I think even in in doing that, you see that it
becomes easier to set boundaries.
Absolutely right, because welove these people so much and we
want to take care of them andgive them everything and show
them the best.
But it also becomes veryimportant for us to learn how to
say no.
You have to, and I know thatfor all of us having daughters.
No, it's hard sometimes.
You know, they know exactly howto work our little heartstrings
(30:11):
to the extent to where, as youknow, those nose start breaking
down sometimes.
So I recognize that when it'sdad, can you, can we go and
spend some time together now, orthat it is, it is so hard to do
but to say no, baby, you know,daddy's got to get a little bit
of sleep right.
Speaker 1 (30:28):
You know you have to look at it as that protection
and providing right.
Speaker 3 (30:32):
Yes, me saying no sometimes is me protecting her
yes, and choosing myself in thatmoment, that's, you're
protecting her even though Iknow she wants it and so even
though it's for me right now,the big picture, it's for her
benefit.
Yeah, you know, one of the thethings that I found was oh, they
did not like this.
I am on my second marriage.
I was married for 20 years onmy first go around and so my
(30:54):
second marriage.
I'm about where you are andwe're right at about three years
, and so one of the things thatI'm learning from being a
husband in this space is thatprioritizing my wife and
creating a sense of structure inthe house was so important.
The kids after a short periodof time they wanted to know.
(31:16):
This new woman is here.
What is the pecking order?
Speaker 1 (31:18):
Who's your favorite person.
Speaker 3 (31:20):
And I, without hesitation, looked at each of
them and said Brittany is myfavorite person.
And they were incredulous.
Speaker 2 (31:27):
Brittany is your wife , is my wife, yes, and they were
incredulous.
Speaker 3 (31:30):
My oldest daughter looked at me with her mouth
agape.
How could she be your favoriteperson?
I said, because you beloved aregoing to leave me one day, and
your younger sister, and that'sbeen the sole focus of my life.
I am not the best culminationof the Murphy name you are.
I said.
My entire life has beendedicated to being a.
(31:51):
Get your ass and fly up outthis nest.
Speaker 2 (31:53):
Really, they asked the wrong question.
They used the wrong word, right.
If you ask me who my favoriteperson is, there's a way I
answer that question, but if youask me who's the priority in my
life as far as the peckingorder as you mentioned, forget
the talking about myresponsibilities as a man and
the commitment that I've made.
Speaker 1 (32:09):
So I talked about this in the book too.
Right, who comes first?
Everybody comes first.
So here's the thing the lovethat I share with my significant
other is not the same love youshare with your children.
Speaker 2 (32:20):
Correct, it's different right.
Speaker 1 (32:23):
I love you all the same.
You are all priorities.
Now it looks different based onwho I'm sharing it with, and so
oftentimes we don't feel likewe have enough love to share
with everybody around us, and sowe learn to compartmentalize.
If I'm choosing to give youthat much love, I'm choosing to
give you, you know, this littlebit of love right when we could
(32:43):
just look at it as one big love,but I'm sharing it differently
with different people.
May I?
Speaker 3 (32:47):
challenge that a bit.
Yeah, in the respect ofsometimes, even though there's a
big shared family group lovelike no, you know, no one's
necessarily missing out on that,because the way and I hear what
you're saying to the effectthat the way that I love you as
my, my daughter, is so differentfrom the way that I love my
wife, but no less powerful orsignificant, so that you're not
(33:08):
missing anything, and I wantedto make sure I understood that
that's what you were saying,right?
But I also think that there's aplace where you know, when you
get off of work, you have todecide who you're going to spend
time with first.
I'm going to check in with mywife first, right, I mean,
that's yeah.
Speaker 1 (33:21):
Yeah, yeah Right.
Speaker 3 (33:22):
And sit with her.
And now, mind you, and that'skids, even though in the moment
they're not happy about it RightEvery time that door closes.
To this day, my 16 year old isfive, almost five, 11.
And she, I will see her littleshadow lurking outside the door.
And if she's knocking and Ineed, I'm saying hey, honey, can
you give us just a little bitmore time?
Speaker 1 (33:43):
It's right so.
So here's the thing, though youkind of created that dynamic
because you separated the love.
I wouldn't have a nominalstructure where you first, you
second, like I wouldn't say mywife is my first priority, she's
a priority, okay, so are you,everybody's a priority, but
right now I need to spend timewith her.
That sounds like everybody getsa ribbon after the race.
(34:05):
You know what I mean.
Speaker 2 (34:07):
So for us laymen right so when I hear that, I
hear that and I go, okay, well,someone had to win the race,
right, it's five people running.
Who came first, who came second?
How do you say you're allpriorities?
Sounds like you're all winners,but we know someone did win.
So when it comes to that, yousaid not to make it nominal.
Break that down for us andexplain it so I can understand
it better.
Speaker 1 (34:26):
So when we look at family right, I love the dynamic
right, the structure you create, the verbiage.
however, I would have formulatedit differently in terms of you
know, this is the priority orthis is the you know number one,
right, because what I'venoticed, right, when we have
this, okay, she's a priority orhe's a priority, then that means
, well, I'm not.
(34:46):
Again, I'm not saying that'swhat it is, but oftentimes
children will associate me notbeing a priority as I'm less
important.
Yeah, because, again, there'sno difference in loving your
family, right, you love themdifferently.
It doesn't matter if they'reteenagers or adolescents or
infants or whatever.
Right, but the like, the way wesay things matter, because
(35:09):
that's what they internalize.
Yes, right, yes, and so, andsome of that was is just more
geared toward the personalitiesof the kids, yeah, say things
matter because that's what theyinternalize.
Speaker 3 (35:12):
Yes, right, and so and some of that was is just
more geared toward thepersonalities of the kids.
Yeah, my oldest daughter is theshock value child, so I will
communicate with her a bit moreradically and bluntly sometimes
just to get her attention, causeshe'll lose interest so fast.
You know, some of that was likepeople say all the time that
you know you parent them whenthey're younger so that you can
(35:35):
be friends with them whilethey're older.
And it's weird.
I'm starting to see that, yeah,you know, like now the boy is a
grown-up and he wants to be backhere and I hear about
everything.
You don't hear me, it's so.
Speaker 2 (35:48):
I feel so lucky, right to know the end, those
details I love you all the same,but there's a different love
that I'm going to get into thisone exactly, but if you ask me
my priority and I go we are allmy priorities.
I don't think any of my kidswould accept that as an answer.
Okay, just go skip away with acookie it depends like what's
going on today all right, so I'mso.
Speaker 1 (36:08):
So here's the thing, though, right, right.
Speaker 2 (36:10):
I guess the word that I'm hung up on is priority
Priority, if that question comesup.
Speaker 1 (36:14):
So I remember this episode from my wife and kids.
When Michael's wife, gina, andhis sister were fighting, they
asked him this question If wewere both drowning, who would
you save first?
And he said I would probablydie trying to save you both.
Right, because I love you bothjust equally so.
(36:35):
So the point is, I canprioritize this person right now
because they need me right now.
I can prioritize my wife rightnow because that's what the
relationship means right now.
Speaker 2 (36:47):
That's a great answer .
I understand what you're saying.
So now the best way to answerthe question is to say well, it
depends on the situation Exactly.
I would save the one whocouldn't swim, yeah.
Speaker 1 (36:57):
They're both drowning .
Yeah, if you've got a strongswimmer here.
I'm going to get the one thatcan't swim.
None of them know how to swim.
Speaker 3 (37:05):
But our logical brains think like that.
Later on someone's going to beangry.
But I'm like baby, you'reswimming 25 laps a day.
This one drowns in a foot ofwater.
What did you think I was gonna?
Speaker 1 (37:14):
do.
It's a very illogical questionto ask somebody.
It's not made to be right, it'slogical, exactly it's you know.
It's just that somebody wantsto know that they are on your
priority radar.
Speaker 2 (37:25):
Yeah, I'll give you an example.
I forgot what this paradox is,but it's one where there's a bus
, you're driving it and there'syour daughter on one side, and
you can't stop this bus.
Right, you got to go left orright, right.
And on the other side there's20 people mothers, children,
babies.
Who do you drive the bus into?
Right?
Any question for me, exactly.
But here's the thing thatwasn't a logical answer.
Speaker 1 (37:47):
Right, because if we were thinking logically, you'd
be like well, baby, I can save20 people.
Yeah, that's exactly right.
Yeah, so it's not even aboutlogic it's not about it's just
the fact that some, whensomebody asks you that question,
they want to feel like theirpriority.
Yeah, right, and the moment youtell them, well, this person is
the priority, then you kind ofpush them aside and make them
feel like they're second.
Speaker 2 (38:08):
I'm seeing it now in a different lens based on the
way you put that.
Speaker 3 (38:13):
Me as well, thank you .
Speaker 2 (38:15):
It's no different than the whole Black Lives
Matter movement, where you go,all lives matter.
Well, sure they all do.
But in this moment this onematters for this reason and this
is what we're talking aboutit's not saying yours doesn't
matter, and so it breaks it downto explain it that way too.
Yeah, so that makes sense.
So, mark, in your book youadvocate forgiveness quite a bit
(38:37):
and reading your story, seeingwhat you had to forgive, I can
see where you're coming from andI guess it took a whole lot to
get you there.
But how do you reconcile that,how do you reconcile that with
holding individuals accountable,especially men, fathers, who
have hurt other people, hurt youhurt?
(38:57):
your family hurt your mom.
How do you hold these peopleaccountable and still find a way
to forgive them?
Speaker 1 (39:03):
Well, forgiveness is for me.
You're doing it for yourself.
However, forgiveness doesn'tmean that I'm not holding you
accountable.
I can still hold youaccountable for messing up, but
I'm not holding it against youand I'm also not holding you
hostage in my head.
So when we don't forgive, right, it's almost like we convincing
ourselves this person has tolive in my head in a negative
(39:24):
way and that hurts you, becausewhoever you don't forgive, they
could be out there living theirbest life.
Speaker 3 (39:30):
Absolutely they're not thinking about you?
Speaker 1 (39:32):
No, no, but you're walking around holding them
hostage when they ain't eventhinking about you, right?
So, when it comes toforgiveness, nobody who is happy
or in a good space, who'ssatisfied with their lives, will
hurt somebody else.
If you can do something hurtfulto somebody else, to me,
something is going on with you,and so I have learned to
(39:54):
empathize with people like me.
Forgiving you could be me,never talking to you, ever again
at peace, not having to worryabout you, and so when I forgive
you, I'm doing it for myself,but based on that forgiveness, I
can give you grace.
You're not going to hurt meagain, right, because I forgive
you.
And now that forgiveness comeswith boundaries, right, that
(40:18):
forgiveness comes withrepositioning your space in my
life.
That forgiveness comes with meholding you accountable.
Speaker 2 (40:26):
Have you ever had to forgive someone that you never
even had a chance to tell themthat they were forgiven, so you
had to pretty much do it byyourself in your own head.
What does that, what does thatfeel like?
Because I've tried it, itdidn't work.
So.
But then I had to say to myself, as I'm growing spiritually, no
, I forgive this person, right.
So I said it in prayer, I saidit in meditation, yeah.
But then a year later I find myI'm not thinking about this
(40:46):
person, but if the thought comesup, it evokes the same emotions
, right.
So I go, have I forgiven, right?
Speaker 1 (40:52):
I think I need to say this prayer again and I'll have
to say again out loud I forgiveso and so it's, it's a process,
yeah, it's a process, and forme, right.
And one thing actually that washuge I've never met my
biological father.
Yeah, and I used to be angryand I used to say, if I ever met
this dude, I will kill him.
Yeah, that's anger, I used tobe angry.
Yeah, and I used to say, if Iever met this dude, I will kill
him.
Yeah, that's anger, I used tobe angry.
Speaker 2 (41:13):
Yeah, and I went to therapy, especially when he got
old diesel and shit.
Speaker 1 (41:17):
You know you know, you know you can put them.
I'm sure he's older now.
Speaker 2 (41:24):
Yeah, I'm sure I'm bigger.
Speaker 1 (41:26):
Still get his ass kicked so so I went to therapy,
right, and it was 2006.
Like, I was carrying so much,you know, so much guilt, so much
anger, so much resentment, andI was hurting myself.
I couldn't sleep.
My relationship with women wasso unhealthy because I didn't
care.
I just wanted to hurt people.
(41:46):
And so the therapist told mewho are you punishing?
And I said I'm punishing himfor what he did.
And he said no, you'repunishing yourself.
How Well, who's hurting?
Forgiveness doesn't have to beyou going to somebody and say I
forgive you.
Forgiveness is a choice youmake.
Right For me to say you knowwhat?
(42:08):
I need to get rid of this,because I'm like there's a
purpose for this to havehappened and I'm choosing to
embrace it.
I can't be mad at what happened.
And then he said you have toforgive your mom.
I said come on, man, that's alie, because she was there, yeah
, and she took out her anger onme, yeah, right.
(42:28):
So I'm like you want me toforgive her.
She was an adult, I was a kid.
But then he said again whoyou're hurting?
And the way I forgive her wasto understand her story.
And that helped me empathizewith her.
Wow, you were a kid doing this.
If I was 15 having a kid, Idon't know what I would have
done.
I still had toys at 15,.
Speaker 2 (42:47):
bro, I did too.
Speaker 1 (42:51):
I mean, we all did.
Speaker 2 (42:52):
We were kids, that's kids age I had toys yeah, like I
bigger toys and a nintendo,that's.
Speaker 1 (42:57):
That's a kid's age, right and then, to you know, to
couple that with the shame shebrought to the family, my
grandparents sent her away.
So I learned to empathize andsay you know know what I'm sorry
she was hurting.
Speaker 2 (43:12):
She was hurting.
She started crying.
Speaker 1 (43:14):
Yeah, she was hurting .
I started crying and thatmoment was the pivotal point of
our healing journey.
Speaker 2 (43:21):
And speaking of parent-child interactions across
generations or across gendersin this particular case, you
know a son and a mother and afather and a daughter.
You discuss this parent-childhealing quite a bit in the book.
So what's one unexpectedinsight from the book that you
want black fathers to learn fromyour work about the way they
(43:41):
bond with their daughters andsons?
Right, Wow?
Speaker 1 (43:45):
That's a really great question.
That's a big one.
We are the blueprint man topersonalize it.
One thing I had to learn Icouldn't carry the burden of my
birth father to my daughter.
I couldn't, man.
I made it such a hugeresponsibility and my mission to
(44:06):
heal Therapy, coaching guys,getting together, having
conversations.
How can we be different?
Speaker 2 (44:12):
And you figured this out on your own.
You pretty much said I need to.
I feel like sometimes I want toask my kids for forgiveness,
because when I became a father,I needed therapy and then I
spent 10 years in the mostmiserable time of my life post
having that first kid, showingher nothing but trauma,
reinforcing the trauma, and allI needed to do was find that
(44:35):
healing.
Now, granted, I never turned itdown.
It was not something that wasjust in my radar.
No one offered it to me.
I'm older than you are, sothose 10 years make a huge
difference as an adult in the90s.
You know, those 10 years make ahuge difference as an adult in
the 90s.
Speaker 3 (44:51):
We don't have those conversations right, there was
no better help.
Speaker 1 (44:52):
No online therapy.
I barely got into that, youknow.
So Walk it off.
Yeah Right, exactly.
Speaker 2 (44:59):
Put some dirt on it and go figure it out.
So all I knew was the way toparent, based on the way I
watched myself be parented.
But at the same token, Ithought I knew better by going
oh, I won't do that, because myfather did that and there was so
much of him and me that Ididn't know I didn't recognize
until it was too late and pastthat point.
So kudos to you for sayingrecognizing.
Hey, I don't want to pass thison to my children.
Can I speak to that?
Speaker 3 (45:21):
Asking the children for forgiveness.
I did that and I would say itchanged our relationship and to
the extent that I talked to themand I told them, I was like,
look, when your mom and I weregoing through it, you were
getting the full swath of all ofour trauma.
Yeah, yeah, you know, andwithout any context, I had to be
(45:41):
the one, in our case, toacknowledge one band, one sound.
So, whatever their mother toldthem I had to go with.
Then I had to be the bad guy,unfortunately.
But I will say this that therelationship changed so much
when I came to them and said,hey, I was not a great dad
during this time frame.
(46:02):
I was not able to be availableto you emotionally, I was
grouchy, I was dismissive, I was, you know, I was neglectful to
your emotional needs for thisperiod of time and that was
wrong.
And so I recognize that thatdamaged the relationship and I
understand why you would bereluctant to want to talk to me,
because I don't deserve that.
Speaker 1 (46:22):
Yeah, nothing brings closeness and oneness more than
vulnerability.
Yeah Right, oh, so good.
And so I have this thing I dowith my daughter right Almost
like every month.
Yeah, we ask each other whatcan we do?
What can I do to be a betterdad?
Speaker 2 (46:37):
I love that so much.
And then she's like what can Ido to be a better daughter?
Speaker 1 (46:47):
We have such a deep connection, like relationship.
Speaker 2 (46:48):
It's amazing, right we like we'll sit down and talk
and play dominoes and cards forhours.
Speaker 1 (46:51):
You're raising a real little haitian right, exactly
like playing dominoes, yep yepso so.
So it's important, man, to havethese vulnerable moments where
you ask each other, because Ican't always see my blind spots
right, I'm not always awareSpeaking of vulnerability and
weakness leads me to my verynext question, which is you know
(47:12):
communities, they often see orthey resist rather vulnerability
.
Speaker 2 (47:16):
How can someone, man or woman, initiate conversations
about emotional wellness inspaces that label it as weakness
?
Speaker 1 (47:25):
That's a tough one.
It's a tough one and it's hardto be vulnerable if you don't
feel safe, and especially in ourcommunities, we've been taught
to believe that vulnerability isa sign of weakness.
If I'm having this relationshipwith you, what's the purpose?
Why are we doing this?
So seeking to understandfoundational dynamics?
(47:46):
Why are we doing this?
So seeking to understandfoundational dynamics?
What is this built on?
Is it love?
Is it responsibilities?
Is it compassion?
Is it me having a desire to seeyou grow and prosper?
Am I that safe space for you?
So all those things really cometogether and say, okay, well,
this is different from what Iknew, this is different from
what I grew up with.
Do my children feel safe comingto me?
(48:08):
If you mess up, do I get mad atyou or do I get mad at what you
did?
So your actions are not you.
They're not your essence.
Speaker 2 (48:17):
That's not your identity, right?
Just something you did Exactly.
I heard two things in thesemilestones which were really
powerful yeah, have I forgiven,right?
My God, that's a really, reallygood one.
Yeah, and am I creating a safespace for my children or even
those around me?
Is there another one?
Is there a third Purpose?
What is the purpose?
Speaker 1 (48:35):
Okay, why are we doing this Right?
What do we hope to accomplish?
And the why is always alwaysmore powerful than than what
you're actually doing.
I'm doing this because I wantto see you grow.
I'm doing this because I wantto protect you.
I want to love you so deeply,Like I'm doing this because it
is my responsibility.
I've chosen this and so if I'vemade that choice, I actually
(48:56):
have to make sure I take care ofevery responsibility that comes
with that choice.
So why are we doing this?
So always asking the purpose ofevery interaction?
That way you can actually seethem clearly.
Speaker 2 (49:09):
I have one last question for you.
The question for you, Mark, issome might interpret your
message as placing too much onthe individual rather than the
systems.
Either that was designed to getus where we are or to keep us
where we are.
So how do you mitigatestructural barriers while still
empowering personal change?
Speaker 1 (49:29):
Well, you know, like Zoe said earlier, you cannot
expect the people who createdthis system to come save you.
The system will always going tobe there, right?
So if you don't change, youcan't create a different system.
So I think it's important toactually see the individual
aspect of it first, and that waywe can actually come together
and create a system that worksfor us.
And so one of the reasons why Iwrite or I speak and I do
(49:54):
workshops because I want peopleto be responsible, take
ownership of themselves.
Right, I'm actually working onthe six weeks program.
It's called Designing yourSuperpower Life, the Power of
Self-Ownership.
Even if this system wasdifferent, if you're not in a
mental space to actuallyunderstand the system and
(50:14):
receive it, it won't change foryou.
And so I think it's importantto look at the individual aspect
of it and say you know what?
I'm choosing to change myhousehold.
I'm choosing to change me.
It has start small, yeah, so wecan actually get bigger if
we're looking at the biggerspace, the bigger picture, right
, we cannot change thegenerations removed.
Speaker 2 (50:37):
If it ever changes, it's designed to be this way,
right, right.
Speaker 3 (50:41):
It's functioning the way it was supposed to exactly
because you can't.
Speaker 1 (50:43):
You know you, because if well, I'm going to focus on
the system, there's always goingto be pushback, even if it's
unhealthy.
So if I want to change thesystem, I have to get people to
change so we can actually createa system that works
collectively.
Speaker 2 (50:57):
For us as black folks .
That's a great place to end it.
Man, how do people find you?
Speaker 1 (51:02):
I am on social media.
If you Google my name, MarkMoplazier,
M-A-R-K-M-O-M-P-L-E-I-S-I-R,you'll find me everywhere,
really, but Instagram, TikTok,YouTube.
I have a website calledhealingvibesorg.
Speaker 2 (51:17):
Thanks immensely, brother, for being here being
part of the show all the wayfrom New York.
Yes, yes, you know I'm going topretend you came here just for
me.
Speaker 1 (51:26):
I'll take that.
I'll take that I shouldn't bedead.
Yeah, right, I did, I did.
That's exactly what happened.
That was the point.
Yeah, exactly, and Zole, thankyou, brother, for being here,
man, thank you for inviting mebrother.
Speaker 2 (51:36):
Yeah, appreciate your input, brother.
Speaker 3 (51:46):
Do at reddog underscore Murph.
I'm kind of on TikTok right now.
I deleted my Facebook account.
Speaker 2 (51:48):
Reddog Murph is also on Instagram Cool Good.
So, as you know, traditionallywhen we end the show, someone
has to read the outro notes.
Speaker 1 (51:56):
Yeah, it's funny.
Speaker 2 (51:57):
Doing an impression, yeah, man.
So Mark Moplezier has lost thecoin toss again.
Speaker 1 (52:04):
So again two Twice in a row.
Speaker 2 (52:07):
Alright, so we flipped it.
Speaker 1 (52:09):
It looks like Zol's, got it Zol's got it man.
Speaker 2 (52:13):
He volunteered, he's gonna do it and you're gonna do
Mbaku From Black Panther.
Alright, let's get it bro.
Speaker 3 (52:21):
So my brothers have invited us To Express our.
So my brothers have invited ushere to express our views on
manhood and matters of manhood,and so for this I am grateful,
and so we would ask for you, ourdear listeners, to please
(52:41):
support us all.
By following this show.
You will leave us a five-starreview.
Apple podcast.
To be fair, we appreciate youtuning in, so we say thank you
so much for listening.
We'll catch you next week whenwe'll share conversations, sound
(53:02):
rounding, real issues we, asmen, deal with every day.
It never changes.
One thing to know is thatmanhood matters.
We are out.
Speaker 2 (53:19):
We are out, Awesome brother.
Speaker 1 (53:23):
Oh man that was good.
Speaker 3 (53:25):
That was good, that was good.
That's my worst act we havewatched from the mountains.
Speaker 2 (53:31):
I'm terrible, I'm terrible, I'm terrible, I'm
terrible, I'm terrible, I'mterrible, I'm terrible, I'm
terrible, I'm terrible, I'mterrible, I'm terrible, I'm
terrible, I'm terrible, I'mterrible, I'm terrible, I'm
terrible, I'm terrible.
I'm terrible I hey guys, a quickword.
(53:54):
The purpose of this show is toeducate and entertain.
We love bringing you valuabletools that you can utilize, but
this is in no way supposed to bea substitute for any medical
advice, legal advice, and we arenot therapists.
If you are struggling withanything, consult a licensed
(54:14):
therapist counselor.
But we do send you our love andour strength.
And oh, and before I go, thisis the most important thing
that's happening today.
Today is July 28th 2025, whenthis episode is released, and
it's my baby girl's birthday.
She turns 10 today and she's soexcited.
(54:35):
Eva, you are my heart.
I love you so much, baby, and Iwant to take this moment to
wish you the happiest birthdayof all.
Welcome to Double Digits, and Iwill see you on our date this
evening.
Love you, baby.
I've never met my biological father.
Yeah, like I was carrying somuch guilt, so much anger, so
much resentment, and I washurting myself.
I couldn't sleep.
My relationship with women wasso unhealthy because I didn't
care.
Yeah, I just wanted to hurtpeople.
And so the therapist told mewho are you punishing?
And I said I'm punishing himfor what he did.
(00:21):
And he said no, you'repunishing yourself.
How Well, who's hurting?
Forgiveness doesn't have to beyou going to somebody and say I
forgive you.
Forgiveness is a choice youmake, and so from that moment on
, right.
Speaker 2 (00:35):
Today we have Zoe Murphy returning to the pod for
the second week in a row andjoining us all the way from New
York, mr Mark Monplaisir.
Mark is an organizationalpsychologist, wellness coach,
public speaker, just to name afew, but he's also authored a
couple of books.
Be sure to check out the shownotes to see his body of work
(00:58):
and to follow him on socialmedia.
Now we all have trauma in ourlives and this continues to
plague us Even after we thoughtwe had moved on.
Trauma affects everyrelationship we have, be it with
our friends, parents, our mostintimate relationships and,
perhaps the most concerning ofall, our children.
(01:20):
In his book Strong Women, fedUp Men, defeated Sons, broken
Daughters, mark masterfullyexposes the reasons we have
struggled by using his personalstory of forgiveness, resilience
, pain, in addition to hisacademic research and amazing
talent to simplify all of it sothat the rest of us can use this
(01:43):
resource in the most practicalway.
Our relationships, especiallyin the black community, have
challenges that have deep roots.
It's not always just your fault, as Mark brilliantly explains.
It's not your fault, but it isyour responsibility.
This gives you the tools.
The issues have roots frombefore you were even born.
(02:04):
You are a mosaic of hundreds ofpeople.
You've inherited their DNA,their habits, their pain.
But if you want to learn how toimprove those relationships,
especially with the family thatyou created, listen to this
episode all the way through andplease share it with your
partner and anyone else youthink this might benefit.
(02:25):
Welcome to Manhood Matters.
Let's get to it.
We have with us in the studiotoday our our very special guest
(02:48):
, mark Montplaisir.
I'm here with my boy, zoleMurphy, as well, but Mark's
written a book and I had tospeed read this thing, bro, and
I got to tell you I've learnedso much and I'm going to let you
explain.
Just give us a quick overviewof what it's about, because it's
a conversation we absolutelyhave to have.
You know what's cool?
I'll say this about your book Ithink everyone at 20 years old
(03:11):
should be given a copy, I thinkif you're a black man or woman?
especially women, I'm going tosay because there's certain
things where I wanted to kind ofquote your book and be like
babe, come read this, and we hada little disagreement or
whatever, and I'm like I kind ofwant to communicate it this way
and I don't have the words, Idon't have the tools and the
resources.
I feel like I'm not gettingthrough and reading your words.
(03:31):
I think those are tools thatanyone could use and if a man
and woman in a relationshiptogether both read it
individually and then cometogether, man, it could be some
powerful stuff.
But before we start I got toask you one question, man.
Yes, why the hell is the titleso long bro?
Speaker 1 (03:51):
I wanted people to read it and get shocked by it,
you know.
But, man, that was one of thebest endorsement and
introduction ever.
All right, well, hey, man, itwas so hard.
I appreciate that, I appreciatethat.
Speaker 2 (04:03):
So the name of the book is Strong Women, fed Up Men
, defeated Sons I'm still goingBroken Daughters Healing
Generational.
Speaker 1 (04:13):
Pain.
Yeah, that's the dynamic wehave in a lot of our communities
, and so I wanted people to readit and get a sense of oh wow,
this has been my experience,right, just based on okay, I'm a
fed up man, right, whateverthat means for you.
I'm a defeated son, whateverthat means for you.
I'm a strong woman, right,whatever that means for you.
(04:33):
Ever since I was a kid, I wasalways curious about why people
think that what they do, whythey do the things that they do,
and I wanted to understand it,and so I started reading things
that they do and I wanted tounderstand it, and so I started
reading I love talking to people, right, just to get a sense of
their stories, right,understanding who they are.
How did they grow up, right,how did that play into them
being who they are today?
(04:54):
And even my own, you know myown story.
I wanted to understand myself,and so I was married, got
divorced in 2019.
And I remember I went to Miamithat same week.
I moved out separated and itwas my birthday weekend.
I got to get away.
I got to just kind of regainyourself, right, reprocess and
then refocus right.
(05:14):
Recenter all of that, and whenI got to Miami and I remember
that night it was a Friday nightI'm in the hotel room, it was
pouring and I started listeningto gospel music and then I
started playing TD Jakes andsomething came over me.
I started bawling, just crying,and I was crying from like
(05:35):
maybe 11, 8 pm to about fouro'clock in the morning.
Yeah, yeah, right, I startedpraying and then it was almost
like a revelation.
Something said you need towrite a book.
And I got back to New YorkSunday night and that same night
I started writing.
Like I remember, I startedwriting on my phone and I didn't
know what I was going to writeabout.
Speaker 2 (05:55):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (05:55):
But it was just that spirit said you need to write a
book.
And then when I started writing, I was like, okay, well, IDs
are coming, they're coming to me, Right.
And so I gave myself a schedule.
Every weekend I'd spend likeseven, eight hours, oh wow,
Saturday, Sunday, just writing,right.
And then, as I started tostructure the book, I wanted to
(06:20):
get more stories and so Istarted interviewing clients.
So I was doing mental healthcoaching at the time and I'm
like, well, let me talk to thisclient just to get a sense of
her, like real story.
Like what would she say to heryounger self?
What would she do if she hadn'tlearned different?
Right, If her foundation wasdifferent?
How would that have changed herdynamic right now?
And as you can see in the book,there are stories about people
sharing okay, well, you know,like writing letters to
(06:42):
themselves.
And so, based on what I'velearned having interviews,
hearing people's stories I cantell you.
When people ask me about thebook, like what was your process
, I'm like I don't know.
I was so inspired I was beingfed the words.
Yeah, I was being fed the wordsand when.
So I gave myself about a year.
(07:02):
I started in August, startedwriting it and it was done the
next, the following august, Ihad a beta readers, like people
reading the book.
Just a little, let me know whatyou think.
Does it make sense, right?
Do you think it aligns withpeople's stories?
Because I'm like it's my story.
Sure, a lot of it, right, andit's.
It's a lot of people's storiesthat I grew up with and seeing
(07:23):
their dynamics and getting tounderstand who they are.
But I'm like let me get a truefeedback from people.
People were crying.
Speaker 2 (07:29):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (07:30):
I mean, they read the book, they were crying, they
were like this is my story.
I was never aware of it, butthis was my experience.
And so, from understanding eventhe foundations we inherited
from slavery, right tounderstanding how we've been
taught, we've been conditionedto see ourselves a certain way.
And now we learning purpose, welearning forgiveness, right.
(07:57):
We learning, you know,generational pain, we learning
to see our parents not just asour parents, but as a man and a
woman, right?
What have we learned that wecan actually unlearn so we can
create our own dynamic?
And so the book has been verypowerful in that sense.
And it's also at the librariespublic libraries in New York
because somebody was like thisbook needs to be at the library,
it needs to be at school,having gotten into the school
(08:19):
system, yet.
That's why I said this was oneof the best endorsements,
because people read the book andwas like, well, this is
powerful.
Yeah, because many of us havenever heard stuff like this
before.
Many of us never really tooktime to even think about the
foundation that we inherited,right, whether it's from our
parents or if we want to take itall the way back from slavery.
Talking about self-awareness,talking about generational
(08:42):
awareness.
Talking about culturalawareness, self-awareness,
talking about generationalawareness.
Talking about culturalawareness how can we actually
learn what those things are,those detrimental patterns,
unhealthy traditions?
And then we can unlearn whatthey are, so we can make room
for something healthier.
Speaker 2 (08:56):
The reason you had that reaction from a lot of
people is because I think we aremade to believe at times that
our story is unique.
When I was going through it, Ibelieve I was the only one.
I was in a very unhappy,unhealthy relationship because
of both sides, because I had mybrokenness and my issues and I
didn't recognize them and shehad hers and we got together and
(09:17):
I'm supposed to be youreverything.
No, I'm not that you know so.
Then it's all these differentthings.
And again, if I had the toolsto understand that and deal with
it.
So, yes, and people will lookat that, and people will look at
their stories, but they canfind themselves in your stories.
But what I love about it too.
You just said this is my story.
I slightly disagree.
Well, I don't disagree, it isyour story.
(09:38):
But here's what I found inreading the book it's your story
accompanied by an instructionmanual that goes along with
every step.
It breaks it down.
If I get into a fight with mywife right now about the rice is
too hot or too salty orwhatever it is, that's not
really what that fight is about.
That fight is about somethingmuch deeper.
So the way you communicate andyou resolve any conflict is you
(10:01):
have to really understand whatis the initial conflict or
what's the reason for it.
So I think that's what I loveabout your book, because your
book goes back to explaining why.
You know, we had this episode onHaiti, when we talked about the
reasons Haiti is the way it isis because of X, y and Z.
Now you can understand whypeople are the way they are.
Well, if I know why, not what'swrong with me, but the trauma,
(10:22):
the generational trauma, the DNA, what's been imprinted.
You know, I'm a mosaic ofhundreds of ancestors, you know.
And then here I am and so isthis other person, and they had
their own shit to deal with.
And then you break it down bygoing way, way, way back, even
when you talk about, hey, thisis how the masters addressed the
(10:43):
slaves, and then, when we gotour freedom, that's how we
address our children, not thehealthy way, I didn't want to
talk about slavery, and you know, and as you can see, it's
really brief.
Speaker 1 (10:54):
The first chapter talks about the foundation.
We can get lost in that right,but I wanted us to understand.
We didn't create this.
This may not be our fault, butwe're still responsible.
Even though we didn't createthis, this may not be our fault,
but we're still responsibleeven though we didn't create it
right.
Speaker 2 (11:11):
I like that, and so so so go ahead.
Speaker 1 (11:21):
So.
So we have to understand justbecause somebody gave me a story
, a foundation, doesn't meanthat I have to keep building on
it.
I can still go and scrape thatbottom and start building
differently.
If it's crooked, I can stilladd layers to make it straight.
That way, I can build what Iwant.
Even when we're talking aboutour parents, we have to look at
their dynamic, because theytaught us to be a version of
themselves, and that's somethingI had to do.
(11:42):
Look at my mom and even mygrandparents, and I'll talk
about that.
I think I talked about it inbook when I had to go to Haiti
in 2008, because I lost who.
I was right, I lost me, so Ineeded to go back to where I
came from, right To who raisedme, so I could get a sense of.
You know what.
This is the foundation you weregiven.
I have to learn to be objectiveand say you know what?
(12:04):
I still love you as my mom, butyou weren't perfect.
The way you raised me was notperfect.
So now, what can I do aboutthat?
Because I'm not blaming you.
That's what you knew.
That's what you had.
I had a conversation with mymom a few years ago, she's very
loving to my daughter and I saidwell, you've actually never
told me you love me, wow.
And she said well, you'veactually never told me you love
me.
And she said I know, becausewhen I was growing up I didn't
(12:26):
even know love was a thing.
Wow.
And that broke me.
Yeah, I was like well, I amsorry, but I love you.
And so I had to learn toempathize with her experience so
I could actually forgive her.
Our communities right Oftentimes.
It's not necessarily that a lotof the things that we do are
wrong.
They're different becausethat's what we know, right, but
(12:48):
they're unhealthy.
Oftentimes, when we see thingsas wrong or right you know right
and wrong then we tend to notface them, because then we
associate those things with ouressence.
Right.
But if we can say, well, thisis unhealthy, then I have to
look at that thing and notnecessarily me.
Right, I'm always going to bethis person, but what I do can
(13:08):
be different.
So that first chapter talksabout what we were given that
foundation.
We have to face it.
And even when I talk aboutlearning our history, we may not
know exactly all the details,but we have to know this is not
who we are.
We have to know those unhealthypatterns of hating ourselves or
not seeing beauty when we lookat somebody of African descent
(13:32):
who has dark skin.
We have to understand thosethings.
Those are not who we are.
Those are things that we weregiven and we were taught and so
we have to confront them.
And when we can do it we canactually step.
You know, step back and say youknow what I'm great.
And one thing as a Christian, Isee myself as an image of God,
(13:54):
not the image stature you knowwhite folks want us to see as
God, but for me, like havingthat spiritual being where you
can't see God.
So my perception of myself isgreatness, because God is great.
My perception of myself is I'mloving, because I see God as a
loving God.
I can still be tough, I canstill hold power right.
(14:15):
In fact, I hold power becausenobody can take that from me and
it's a choice that has to bebased from learning what we were
taught that were unhealthy towhat we choosing to build as our
own foundation.
Speaker 3 (14:27):
Right.
You know, I think the thingthat we are often accused of is
being victim minded.
We hear that all the time, butwe have to understand that we
are not looking to get anythingfor free, and we're also not
looking to ascribe blame so thatpeople can feel bad, because
there is, in fact, a differencebetween fault and responsibility
(14:49):
.
Fault just means the reason whywe got here.
There is a series ofcircumstances that led to our
present situation, becauseotherwise and this would be the
thing that we really couldcircle back to talk to at some
point in time but there's anassumption with some of our
racist voices in this world thatthere's just something wrong
with us.
I'm talking about blackeverything.
(15:11):
They called it a shitholecountry as a general term, as an
equivocation to any place thatcranks out brown people.
You know what I mean.
So we didn't do this toourselves, but we can't wait for
the people who did it to us topull us from the position.
Yeah, right, and that.
I think that applies to ourrelationships with our women.
Yeah, that applies to ourpositioning in the world.
(15:33):
Now, mind you, the people whofought it is don't want to hear
any parts of it.
It doesn't matter what metricwe use to appeal to their sense
of good judgment or kindness.
To appeal to their sense ofgood judgment or kindness.
I've been giving thought tothis.
When it comes down to EuropeanAmericans, we have to recognize
that we are dealing with thedescendants of Vikings.
They're very proud of that.
But if we look at the Vikingculture, you have to recognize
(15:57):
that.
What was the goal?
To make it to Valhalla?
And there were two ways to doso, and that was in some or that
was at the end of a blade.
So this sense of sex andviolence being relegated to
black folks is silly all right.
Speaker 2 (16:14):
So, mark, I got a question for you.
You highlight historicaltraumas role in shaping fed up
men right and defeated sons.
Yeah.
So how does this collectivepain distort masculinity in
today's black men?
Speaker 1 (16:28):
Well, that's a great question let's go back to,
especially when we're talkingabout the Americas right,
Whether it's here in the US orJamaica or even Haiti when you
look at how black men used to betreated, you were still a boy.
You could be 60 years old.
You were a boy.
Because of that treatment, alot of again we're taking it
(16:48):
back to slavery and I'll bringit back to more modern.
Because of that treatment, youwere never really almost like
allowed to be a man.
Going back to a son.
You're working in the field,you're doing all these things
and oftentimes it's never enough.
You can never work hard enough.
You can never produce enough.
When we think that we're notgetting it right and we keep
(17:10):
trying, that leads to defeat,and at that point it's like, man
, I've been working so hard mywhole life and it still doesn't
amount to anything.
You get fed up.
Frustration, Right, A lot offrustration, and so for a lot of
(17:33):
men, oftentimes we get intothis cocoon where we're like you
know what I'll drink, you know,revert to women or violence, or
just just give up.
But even when we look at the60s right, where men could not
be in the house because of thesystem, we've always been seen
as what we can do, what we canproduce, what we can provide.
We've always been seen as whatwe can do, what we can produce,
what we can provide, and so alot of those narratives have
been passed down.
If you're not providinghappiness or financial provision
, whatever it is right, You'renot a real man.
(17:55):
The way this shows up now, a lotof boys are growing up in homes
where they're the man of thehouse.
Yeah, At 10 years old, at 12year olds right Like they become
the man of the house.
Yeah, A 10 years old, a 12 yearolds right Like they become the
man of the house.
Yeah, Five year olds, you don'tknow how to be a man, let's talk
about it.
Five year olds, right, the onlyboy.
Right, you don't know how to bea man and I'm not.
I'm not even talking aboutproviding.
(18:16):
It's just the sense that if, upwith a single mom, you want to
protect, that is not your job.
Again, remember, they take onthat role or the role has been
placed on them, and because theycan't meet the needs of that
role, they have a lot ofconfusion, they defeated because
, again, you don't know whatyou're doing.
You are a boy.
(18:36):
This is not your role.
If they're doing somethingright, if they say they break
something down and they'retrying to put it back together,
they keep trying, to keep trying.
They can't do it.
Eventually they'll break iteven more or they just give up
and that's where the defeatcomes in.
And so, when we look at,especially relationally right, a
lot of young boys, that is nottheir forte to build
(18:57):
relationships at a young age.
Speaker 2 (18:59):
So then when they are told they're not masculine
enough or they have toxicmasculinity, does that come?
Speaker 1 (19:06):
from that it does, because we have a poor sense of
what masculinity is.
Yes, right, break it down forus.
So okay.
So, especially in the blackcommunity, I love my black
people either way.
Right, I love my black folks.
This book's for them.
Speaker 2 (19:18):
This is us trying to do better, exactly.
Speaker 1 (19:21):
Exactly, and I wrote the book for my people right For
us yeah, the thing is weassociate masculinity with
toughness, with authority, right, that's not what masculinity is
.
Masculinity is me taking careof the folks around me, it's me
being responsible Service,exactly right.
It's me serving others, right?
(19:42):
So, as a man, when we talkabout provision and protecting,
I am serving my community, I'mserving my household, I'm
serving my people.
But because of Europeanstandard, we want black men to
be like white men.
What's the distinction?
Behave the way they provide.
But we're not looking at whatwas you know where we started,
(20:12):
right, right, we're not lookingat the fact that you know the
the European community had 20steps ahead of us.
Speaker 2 (20:16):
So our financial exactly Right.
Speaker 1 (20:17):
It's 200 steps, right , right.
We never took time to actuallybuild together, to actually
understand one another.
So now you have this modernculture of toxic masculinity
that black people didn't invent.
By the way, when this wholething about toxic masculinity
was invented, they were talkingabout crappy men who were using
(20:38):
money to intimidate, tomanipulate and abuse people.
Speaker 3 (20:42):
You did a great job of not using the words or the
names.
You're a good man, right.
Speaker 1 (20:47):
So now we embrace it and we again, we owning it, we
claiming it, and that's onething we know.
We may talk about that too.
We tend to claim things thatdon't belong to us, to describe
us, to associate with us, andthat is very detrimental Give me
an example of that.
Well, I mean so, even when wetalk about the tax of
masculinity.
Speaker 2 (21:07):
Gotcha, gotcha.
Speaker 1 (21:09):
Yeah, that's a big example of it Right.
And so.
But we embrace the narrativesthat have been created by other
people.
Anytime a word is trending, Irefuse to use it, To embrace it.
I refuse because it's nothealthy.
There is no substance in itright.
Speaker 2 (21:26):
And to stay on topic, so say, a black woman gets with
a white guy, her expectationsof that guy are very different.
White guy doesn't have toperform as well, because it's
all a performance from us,mostly men, because we have to
do X, y and Z.
I'm not saying that women don'thave their own set of
performances, but they show moregrace, more patience.
All black men are this, allblack men are that.
(21:46):
So talk to us about that,because you really did a great
job of explaining why that isand what their expectations were
in the first place.
Right, right.
Speaker 1 (21:54):
Yeah, if we take it all the way back, we have to
look at how, back then, blackwomen saw white men.
They were powerful, they werethe providers.
They Back then black women, sawwhite men.
They were powerful, they werethe providers, they were the
protectors, they were the menwho actually had resources, and
so that created a falseperception of black men.
Right, you can't protect me,right, you can't provide for me
(22:16):
because we were both slaves.
Right, and so, moving forward,we look at each other as the
source of our pain.
Even as a man, if I'm walkingdown the street I see a black
man in, you know, in hoodie andin saggy pants, automatically
I'm like, well, I'm not safe.
The spotty senses go up alittle bit.
Exactly, and again, we'retaught those things.
Yeah, and so when we get inrelationships, even so, when,
(22:39):
say, black women get into arelationship with a white man,
automatically she feels safe,despite the fact that they were
the abusers.
Right, they were the killers,the lynchers, but she'll see him
as a safe space because, well,I've been told that you know,
black men are dangerous, thatblack men can't protect me,
they're the ones hurting me.
So now you don't feel safe,right, with a black man and your
(23:01):
guards up.
You have to be, you know youhave to show up guarded.
But when you get with the whiteman and you feel like well,
they provide, they take care oftheir family, I don't have to
worry, even if that's not thecase.
But that initial perception.
I'm safe means I don't have tobe aggressive.
I'm safe means you get a pass.
I'm safe means you're not going.
Imagine, right.
(23:27):
Imagine you're a black woman,right?
You're getting abused by yourslave master.
Speaker 2 (23:33):
The black man can't do anything to help you and I'm
supposed to be a protector.
I'm supposed to be a protector.
Speaker 1 (23:39):
Right, helpless.
So that leads to resentment.
Yeah, where were you, wherewere you?
I was hurting, I was being.
You know the R word.
Yeah, you never did anything.
So how can I trust you toactually protect me?
Now and again, those things arenot being said out loud,
they're inherited.
They're passed down fromgenerations to generations
without even being taught,because their behavior is there,
(24:01):
their mindset is there, theirfeelings are there.
Black men do it too.
They get with a white woman.
Their perception of thatrelationship is different.
Speaker 2 (24:09):
She's softer, she's more feminine, she's more more
cooperative.
She listens to me exactly.
I can lead without resistance.
Exactly so I show up.
We forget why our women wereresistant exactly to begin with
yes, yes, so you.
Speaker 1 (24:23):
So, again, we have to understand where we come from
and we have to get rid of thosenarratives so we can actually
you know what?
Let I see you.
We went through the same thing.
Now it's our time to actuallyheal together, right, but we
both have to be in the samespace where we actually accept
that we're hurting.
Yes, those things happen.
(24:44):
Yes, I inherited those.
Yes, those were the experiences.
Yes, my parents never taught methat.
But what can I do now?
How can I actually have healthyrelationships with the people
around me?
Do I keep using the same toolsand traditions and patterns that
have been passed down fromgenerations to generations, or
(25:04):
do I stop the buck?
I'm choosing to be different.
I'm choosing to do differently.
Speaker 2 (25:09):
Yeah.
So let me ask you this, becausethis is your space as well
Awareness alone doesn't changebehavior.
Knowing it doesn't mean youchange.
So what are some tangiblepractices that you can adopt or
you would recommend that otheryoung men adopt in order to heal
and combat those generationalwounds, especially in young men,
I think?
Speaker 3 (25:29):
that one of the things that we don't do as young
black men is pay attention toself-love.
I think we had talked about ita bit earlier.
Right, we're husbands andfathers and our lives have been
predicated in service always, sowe are always on the grind.
We are always looking to takecare of everyone and everything.
We don't turn around and takecare of us.
(25:51):
The thought was that takingcare of everyone and everything,
we don't turn around and takecare of us.
The thought was that takingcare of ourselves was selfish.
When you really give yourselfsome love, say, you know, I'm
going to look into therapy.
I'm going to look into askingmyself the questions as to why I
do the things that I do and whyhave I established some of the
patterns that I have?
Why do I have these habits?
Right, and then coming up withreasonable answers and looking
(26:12):
at the things that arebeneficial and the things that
are not, you can figure outwhere to eat the fish and spit
out the bones and then, once youreally attribute that time to
loving on yourself, I think thenatural outgrowth of it is going
to just be to spill over ontothe people around you.
You know, that was a greatquestion how Take care of you
first?
When you're getting into a goodplace, you're just going to
have a full cup, and out of thatfullness you will find the
(26:36):
ability to be creative and kindand generous, and thoughtful.
Speaker 2 (26:41):
So what's the balance ?
So we can still practice thatsacrificial love, but not have
resentment for the people thatwe're practicing it for.
So there's a balance, so thatwe don't burn out.
Speaker 3 (26:52):
I'd reject the idea of sacrificial love being
necessary.
I think that it is rooted in aJudeo-Christian construct and
this is with respect to thefaith.
I spent 25 years as anevangelical Christian and I
recognize that the demonstrationof love is evidenced by
(27:14):
sacrifice in the cases of Christ, and I think that that has
transpired into our culture.
Whereas the man, as the head ofthe household, is to love his
wife as Christ loves the church,and that's evidenced by
sacrifice, meaning so that I gowithout, so that you can have.
I don't think that that is thebest way to lead.
And even in the old Africanproverb, what do we say to one
(27:35):
another to check up on eachother?
We don't say how have you beendoing.
We ask how are the children?
I don't think there's ever aplace where we needed to, where
we were allowed time to chooseself first, and it sounds
selfish, but if you don't refillyour own tank first.
You sounds selfish, but if youdon't refill your own tank first
, you're going to be pouringfrom an empty cup and I don't
think that's selfish.
I think it's setting everybodyup for failure.
Speaker 1 (27:56):
Yeah, so can I just add something?
Of course, yeah, For me, theway I look at the sacrificial
love right, If you think ofleadership, it's a
responsibility.
It's not just a position.
It's a responsibility where youhave to make sure that your
subordinates are good, you know,they're provided for, they're
(28:18):
protected.
It doesn't mean you first oryou only.
It means you too.
So we're talking aboutself-care and self-love.
It doesn't mean that you onlytake care of you.
You take care of you so you cantake care of those around you
right.
Even when we're talking abouthaving that balance or even
providing that sacrificial love,it's sharing in a sense of
leadership.
I am taking on thisresponsibility to make sure that
(28:38):
you good, to make sure I coveryou right.
But for me to be able to coveryou, I actually do have to have
me covered right.
And for me, I believe that Godis covering me and I also look
at me if I'm not at my best,that I'm doing God a disservice
right.
And so I have to make sure thatif I am in a space to protect
(29:01):
and provide for my family or mymentees, or whether it's a group
, I'm leading a church, I haveto make sure I'm good right
Because I'm doing God's work,even in relationships.
Right, it's not my relationship,I'm managing a relationship for
God.
Right Because at any moment itcan be taken away if it's just
about me.
When you see it that way, youdon't see yourself as not
(29:24):
receiving.
Because even if I share withthe folks around me in my
community, right In my household, my friends, I don't look to
receive anything in return.
Right, Not even a thank you.
If I want to share my best,like with my daughter, I have to
be my best.
I exercise because I don't wantmy daughter to wake up, you
know, one day when I'm like 60and she has to take care of me.
(29:45):
Yes, and that's love, that's meprotecting her.
Speaker 3 (29:49):
And I think even in in doing that, you see that it
becomes easier to set boundaries.
Absolutely right, because welove these people so much and we
want to take care of them andgive them everything and show
them the best.
But it also becomes veryimportant for us to learn how to
say no.
You have to, and I know thatfor all of us having daughters.
No, it's hard sometimes.
You know, they know exactly howto work our little heartstrings
(30:11):
to the extent to where, as youknow, those nose start breaking
down sometimes.
So I recognize that when it'sdad, can you, can we go and
spend some time together now, orthat it is, it is so hard to do
but to say no, baby, you know,daddy's got to get a little bit
of sleep right.
Speaker 1 (30:28):
You know you have to look at it as that protection
and providing right.
Speaker 3 (30:32):
Yes, me saying no sometimes is me protecting her
yes, and choosing myself in thatmoment, that's, you're
protecting her even though Iknow she wants it and so even
though it's for me right now,the big picture, it's for her
benefit.
Yeah, you know, one of the thethings that I found was oh, they
did not like this.
I am on my second marriage.
I was married for 20 years onmy first go around and so my
(30:54):
second marriage.
I'm about where you are andwe're right at about three years
, and so one of the things thatI'm learning from being a
husband in this space is thatprioritizing my wife and
creating a sense of structure inthe house was so important.
The kids after a short periodof time they wanted to know.
(31:16):
This new woman is here.
What is the pecking order?
Speaker 1 (31:18):
Who's your favorite person.
Speaker 3 (31:20):
And I, without hesitation, looked at each of
them and said Brittany is myfavorite person.
And they were incredulous.
Speaker 2 (31:27):
Brittany is your wife , is my wife, yes, and they were
incredulous.
Speaker 3 (31:30):
My oldest daughter looked at me with her mouth
agape.
How could she be your favoriteperson?
I said, because you beloved aregoing to leave me one day, and
your younger sister, and that'sbeen the sole focus of my life.
I am not the best culminationof the Murphy name you are.
I said.
My entire life has beendedicated to being a.
(31:51):
Get your ass and fly up outthis nest.
Speaker 2 (31:53):
Really, they asked the wrong question.
They used the wrong word, right.
If you ask me who my favoriteperson is, there's a way I
answer that question, but if youask me who's the priority in my
life as far as the peckingorder as you mentioned, forget
the talking about myresponsibilities as a man and
the commitment that I've made.
Speaker 1 (32:09):
So I talked about this in the book too.
Right, who comes first?
Everybody comes first.
So here's the thing the lovethat I share with my significant
other is not the same love youshare with your children.
Speaker 2 (32:20):
Correct, it's different right.
Speaker 1 (32:23):
I love you all the same.
You are all priorities.
Now it looks different based onwho I'm sharing it with, and so
oftentimes we don't feel likewe have enough love to share
with everybody around us, and sowe learn to compartmentalize.
If I'm choosing to give youthat much love, I'm choosing to
give you, you know, this littlebit of love right when we could
(32:43):
just look at it as one big love,but I'm sharing it differently
with different people.
May I?
Speaker 3 (32:47):
challenge that a bit.
Yeah, in the respect ofsometimes, even though there's a
big shared family group lovelike no, you know, no one's
necessarily missing out on that,because the way and I hear what
you're saying to the effectthat the way that I love you as
my, my daughter, is so differentfrom the way that I love my
wife, but no less powerful orsignificant, so that you're not
(33:08):
missing anything, and I wantedto make sure I understood that
that's what you were saying,right?
But I also think that there's aplace where you know, when you
get off of work, you have todecide who you're going to spend
time with first.
I'm going to check in with mywife first, right, I mean,
that's yeah.
Speaker 1 (33:21):
Yeah, yeah Right.
Speaker 3 (33:22):
And sit with her.
And now, mind you, and that'skids, even though in the moment
they're not happy about it RightEvery time that door closes.
To this day, my 16 year old isfive, almost five, 11.
And she, I will see her littleshadow lurking outside the door.
And if she's knocking and Ineed, I'm saying hey, honey, can
you give us just a little bitmore time?
Speaker 1 (33:43):
It's right so.
So here's the thing, though youkind of created that dynamic
because you separated the love.
I wouldn't have a nominalstructure where you first, you
second, like I wouldn't say mywife is my first priority, she's
a priority, okay, so are you,everybody's a priority, but
right now I need to spend timewith her.
That sounds like everybody getsa ribbon after the race.
(34:05):
You know what I mean.
Speaker 2 (34:07):
So for us laymen right so when I hear that, I
hear that and I go, okay, well,someone had to win the race,
right, it's five people running.
Who came first, who came second?
How do you say you're allpriorities?
Sounds like you're all winners,but we know someone did win.
So when it comes to that, yousaid not to make it nominal.
Break that down for us andexplain it so I can understand
it better.
Speaker 1 (34:26):
So when we look at family right, I love the dynamic
right, the structure you create, the verbiage.
however, I would have formulatedit differently in terms of you
know, this is the priority orthis is the you know number one,
right, because what I'venoticed, right, when we have
this, okay, she's a priority orhe's a priority, then that means
, well, I'm not.
(34:46):
Again, I'm not saying that'swhat it is, but oftentimes
children will associate me notbeing a priority as I'm less
important.
Yeah, because, again, there'sno difference in loving your
family, right, you love themdifferently.
It doesn't matter if they'reteenagers or adolescents or
infants or whatever.
Right, but the like, the way wesay things matter, because
(35:09):
that's what they internalize.
Yes, right, yes, and so, andsome of that was is just more
geared toward the personalitiesof the kids, yeah, say things
matter because that's what theyinternalize.
Speaker 3 (35:12):
Yes, right, and so and some of that was is just
more geared toward thepersonalities of the kids.
Yeah, my oldest daughter is theshock value child, so I will
communicate with her a bit moreradically and bluntly sometimes
just to get her attention, causeshe'll lose interest so fast.
You know, some of that was likepeople say all the time that
you know you parent them whenthey're younger so that you can
(35:35):
be friends with them whilethey're older.
And it's weird.
I'm starting to see that, yeah,you know, like now the boy is a
grown-up and he wants to be backhere and I hear about
everything.
You don't hear me, it's so.
Speaker 2 (35:48):
I feel so lucky, right to know the end, those
details I love you all the same,but there's a different love
that I'm going to get into thisone exactly, but if you ask me
my priority and I go we are allmy priorities.
I don't think any of my kidswould accept that as an answer.
Okay, just go skip away with acookie it depends like what's
going on today all right, so I'mso.
Speaker 1 (36:08):
So here's the thing, though, right, right.
Speaker 2 (36:10):
I guess the word that I'm hung up on is priority
Priority, if that question comesup.
Speaker 1 (36:14):
So I remember this episode from my wife and kids.
When Michael's wife, gina, andhis sister were fighting, they
asked him this question If wewere both drowning, who would
you save first?
And he said I would probablydie trying to save you both.
Right, because I love you bothjust equally so.
(36:35):
So the point is, I canprioritize this person right now
because they need me right now.
I can prioritize my wife rightnow because that's what the
relationship means right now.
Speaker 2 (36:47):
That's a great answer .
I understand what you're saying.
So now the best way to answerthe question is to say well, it
depends on the situation Exactly.
I would save the one whocouldn't swim, yeah.
Speaker 1 (36:57):
They're both drowning .
Yeah, if you've got a strongswimmer here.
I'm going to get the one thatcan't swim.
None of them know how to swim.
Speaker 3 (37:05):
But our logical brains think like that.
Later on someone's going to beangry.
But I'm like baby, you'reswimming 25 laps a day.
This one drowns in a foot ofwater.
What did you think I was gonna?
Speaker 1 (37:14):
do.
It's a very illogical questionto ask somebody.
It's not made to be right, it'slogical, exactly it's you know.
It's just that somebody wantsto know that they are on your
priority radar.
Speaker 2 (37:25):
Yeah, I'll give you an example.
I forgot what this paradox is,but it's one where there's a bus
, you're driving it and there'syour daughter on one side, and
you can't stop this bus.
Right, you got to go left orright, right.
And on the other side there's20 people mothers, children,
babies.
Who do you drive the bus into?
Right?
Any question for me, exactly.
But here's the thing thatwasn't a logical answer.
Speaker 1 (37:47):
Right, because if we were thinking logically, you'd
be like well, baby, I can save20 people.
Yeah, that's exactly right.
Yeah, so it's not even aboutlogic it's not about it's just
the fact that some, whensomebody asks you that question,
they want to feel like theirpriority.
Yeah, right, and the moment youtell them, well, this person is
the priority, then you kind ofpush them aside and make them
feel like they're second.
Speaker 2 (38:08):
I'm seeing it now in a different lens based on the
way you put that.
Speaker 3 (38:13):
Me as well, thank you .
Speaker 2 (38:15):
It's no different than the whole Black Lives
Matter movement, where you go,all lives matter.
Well, sure they all do.
But in this moment this onematters for this reason and this
is what we're talking aboutit's not saying yours doesn't
matter, and so it breaks it downto explain it that way too.
Yeah, so that makes sense.
So, mark, in your book youadvocate forgiveness quite a bit
(38:37):
and reading your story, seeingwhat you had to forgive, I can
see where you're coming from andI guess it took a whole lot to
get you there.
But how do you reconcile that,how do you reconcile that with
holding individuals accountable,especially men, fathers, who
have hurt other people, hurt youhurt?
(38:57):
your family hurt your mom.
How do you hold these peopleaccountable and still find a way
to forgive them?
Speaker 1 (39:03):
Well, forgiveness is for me.
You're doing it for yourself.
However, forgiveness doesn'tmean that I'm not holding you
accountable.
I can still hold youaccountable for messing up, but
I'm not holding it against youand I'm also not holding you
hostage in my head.
So when we don't forgive, right, it's almost like we convincing
ourselves this person has tolive in my head in a negative
(39:24):
way and that hurts you, becausewhoever you don't forgive, they
could be out there living theirbest life.
Speaker 3 (39:30):
Absolutely they're not thinking about you?
Speaker 1 (39:32):
No, no, but you're walking around holding them
hostage when they ain't eventhinking about you, right?
So, when it comes toforgiveness, nobody who is happy
or in a good space, who'ssatisfied with their lives, will
hurt somebody else.
If you can do something hurtfulto somebody else, to me,
something is going on with you,and so I have learned to
(39:54):
empathize with people like me.
Forgiving you could be me,never talking to you, ever again
at peace, not having to worryabout you, and so when I forgive
you, I'm doing it for myself,but based on that forgiveness, I
can give you grace.
You're not going to hurt meagain, right, because I forgive
you.
And now that forgiveness comeswith boundaries, right, that
(40:18):
forgiveness comes withrepositioning your space in my
life.
That forgiveness comes with meholding you accountable.
Speaker 2 (40:26):
Have you ever had to forgive someone that you never
even had a chance to tell themthat they were forgiven, so you
had to pretty much do it byyourself in your own head.
What does that, what does thatfeel like?
Because I've tried it, itdidn't work.
So.
But then I had to say to myself, as I'm growing spiritually, no
, I forgive this person, right.
So I said it in prayer, I saidit in meditation, yeah.
But then a year later I find myI'm not thinking about this
(40:46):
person, but if the thought comesup, it evokes the same emotions
, right.
So I go, have I forgiven, right?
Speaker 1 (40:52):
I think I need to say this prayer again and I'll have
to say again out loud I forgiveso and so it's, it's a process,
yeah, it's a process, and forme, right.
And one thing actually that washuge I've never met my
biological father.
Yeah, and I used to be angryand I used to say, if I ever met
this dude, I will kill him.
Yeah, that's anger, I used tobe angry.
Yeah, and I used to say, if Iever met this dude, I will kill
him.
Yeah, that's anger, I used tobe angry.
Speaker 2 (41:13):
Yeah, and I went to therapy, especially when he got
old diesel and shit.
Speaker 1 (41:17):
You know you know, you know you can put them.
I'm sure he's older now.
Speaker 2 (41:24):
Yeah, I'm sure I'm bigger.
Speaker 1 (41:26):
Still get his ass kicked so so I went to therapy,
right, and it was 2006.
Like, I was carrying so much,you know, so much guilt, so much
anger, so much resentment, andI was hurting myself.
I couldn't sleep.
My relationship with women wasso unhealthy because I didn't
care.
I just wanted to hurt people.
(41:46):
And so the therapist told mewho are you punishing?
And I said I'm punishing himfor what he did.
And he said no, you'repunishing yourself.
How Well, who's hurting?
Forgiveness doesn't have to beyou going to somebody and say I
forgive you.
Forgiveness is a choice youmake.
Right For me to say you knowwhat?
(42:08):
I need to get rid of this,because I'm like there's a
purpose for this to havehappened and I'm choosing to
embrace it.
I can't be mad at what happened.
And then he said you have toforgive your mom.
I said come on, man, that's alie, because she was there, yeah
, and she took out her anger onme, yeah, right.
(42:28):
So I'm like you want me toforgive her.
She was an adult, I was a kid.
But then he said again whoyou're hurting?
And the way I forgive her wasto understand her story.
And that helped me empathizewith her.
Wow, you were a kid doing this.
If I was 15 having a kid, Idon't know what I would have
done.
I still had toys at 15,.
Speaker 2 (42:47):
bro, I did too.
Speaker 1 (42:51):
I mean, we all did.
Speaker 2 (42:52):
We were kids, that's kids age I had toys yeah, like I
bigger toys and a nintendo,that's.
Speaker 1 (42:57):
That's a kid's age, right and then, to you know, to
couple that with the shame shebrought to the family, my
grandparents sent her away.
So I learned to empathize andsay you know know what I'm sorry
she was hurting.
Speaker 2 (43:12):
She was hurting.
She started crying.
Speaker 1 (43:14):
Yeah, she was hurting .
I started crying and thatmoment was the pivotal point of
our healing journey.
Speaker 2 (43:21):
And speaking of parent-child interactions across
generations or across gendersin this particular case, you
know a son and a mother and afather and a daughter.
You discuss this parent-childhealing quite a bit in the book.
So what's one unexpectedinsight from the book that you
want black fathers to learn fromyour work about the way they
(43:41):
bond with their daughters andsons?
Right, Wow?
Speaker 1 (43:45):
That's a really great question.
That's a big one.
We are the blueprint man topersonalize it.
One thing I had to learn Icouldn't carry the burden of my
birth father to my daughter.
I couldn't, man.
I made it such a hugeresponsibility and my mission to
(44:06):
heal Therapy, coaching guys,getting together, having
conversations.
How can we be different?
Speaker 2 (44:12):
And you figured this out on your own.
You pretty much said I need to.
I feel like sometimes I want toask my kids for forgiveness,
because when I became a father,I needed therapy and then I
spent 10 years in the mostmiserable time of my life post
having that first kid, showingher nothing but trauma,
reinforcing the trauma, and allI needed to do was find that
(44:35):
healing.
Now, granted, I never turned itdown.
It was not something that wasjust in my radar.
No one offered it to me.
I'm older than you are, sothose 10 years make a huge
difference as an adult in the90s.
You know, those 10 years make ahuge difference as an adult in
the 90s.
Speaker 3 (44:51):
We don't have those conversations right, there was
no better help.
Speaker 1 (44:52):
No online therapy.
I barely got into that, youknow.
So Walk it off.
Yeah Right, exactly.
Speaker 2 (44:59):
Put some dirt on it and go figure it out.
So all I knew was the way toparent, based on the way I
watched myself be parented.
But at the same token, Ithought I knew better by going
oh, I won't do that, because myfather did that and there was so
much of him and me that Ididn't know I didn't recognize
until it was too late and pastthat point.
So kudos to you for sayingrecognizing.
Hey, I don't want to pass thison to my children.
Can I speak to that?
Speaker 3 (45:21):
Asking the children for forgiveness.
I did that and I would say itchanged our relationship and to
the extent that I talked to themand I told them, I was like,
look, when your mom and I weregoing through it, you were
getting the full swath of all ofour trauma.
Yeah, yeah, you know, andwithout any context, I had to be
(45:41):
the one, in our case, toacknowledge one band, one sound.
So, whatever their mother toldthem I had to go with.
Then I had to be the bad guy,unfortunately.
But I will say this that therelationship changed so much
when I came to them and said,hey, I was not a great dad
during this time frame.
(46:02):
I was not able to be availableto you emotionally, I was
grouchy, I was dismissive, I was, you know, I was neglectful to
your emotional needs for thisperiod of time and that was
wrong.
And so I recognize that thatdamaged the relationship and I
understand why you would bereluctant to want to talk to me,
because I don't deserve that.
Speaker 1 (46:22):
Yeah, nothing brings closeness and oneness more than
vulnerability.
Yeah Right, oh, so good.
And so I have this thing I dowith my daughter right Almost
like every month.
Yeah, we ask each other whatcan we do?
What can I do to be a betterdad?
Speaker 2 (46:37):
I love that so much.
And then she's like what can Ido to be a better daughter?
Speaker 1 (46:47):
We have such a deep connection, like relationship.
Speaker 2 (46:48):
It's amazing, right we like we'll sit down and talk
and play dominoes and cards forhours.
Speaker 1 (46:51):
You're raising a real little haitian right, exactly
like playing dominoes, yep yepso so.
So it's important, man, to havethese vulnerable moments where
you ask each other, because Ican't always see my blind spots
right, I'm not always awareSpeaking of vulnerability and
weakness leads me to my verynext question, which is you know
(47:12):
communities, they often see orthey resist rather vulnerability
.
Speaker 2 (47:16):
How can someone, man or woman, initiate conversations
about emotional wellness inspaces that label it as weakness
?
Speaker 1 (47:25):
That's a tough one.
It's a tough one and it's hardto be vulnerable if you don't
feel safe, and especially in ourcommunities, we've been taught
to believe that vulnerability isa sign of weakness.
If I'm having this relationshipwith you, what's the purpose?
Why are we doing this?
So seeking to understandfoundational dynamics?
(47:46):
Why are we doing this?
So seeking to understandfoundational dynamics?
What is this built on?
Is it love?
Is it responsibilities?
Is it compassion?
Is it me having a desire to seeyou grow and prosper?
Am I that safe space for you?
So all those things really cometogether and say, okay, well,
this is different from what Iknew, this is different from
what I grew up with.
Do my children feel safe comingto me?
(48:08):
If you mess up, do I get mad atyou or do I get mad at what you
did?
So your actions are not you.
They're not your essence.
Speaker 2 (48:17):
That's not your identity, right?
Just something you did Exactly.
I heard two things in thesemilestones which were really
powerful yeah, have I forgiven,right?
My God, that's a really, reallygood one.
Yeah, and am I creating a safespace for my children or even
those around me?
Is there another one?
Is there a third Purpose?
What is the purpose?
Speaker 1 (48:35):
Okay, why are we doing this Right?
What do we hope to accomplish?
And the why is always alwaysmore powerful than than what
you're actually doing.
I'm doing this because I wantto see you grow.
I'm doing this because I wantto protect you.
I want to love you so deeply,Like I'm doing this because it
is my responsibility.
I've chosen this and so if I'vemade that choice, I actually
(48:56):
have to make sure I take care ofevery responsibility that comes
with that choice.
So why are we doing this?
So always asking the purpose ofevery interaction?
That way you can actually seethem clearly.
Speaker 2 (49:09):
I have one last question for you.
The question for you, Mark, issome might interpret your
message as placing too much onthe individual rather than the
systems.
Either that was designed to getus where we are or to keep us
where we are.
So how do you mitigatestructural barriers while still
empowering personal change?
Speaker 1 (49:29):
Well, you know, like Zoe said earlier, you cannot
expect the people who createdthis system to come save you.
The system will always going tobe there, right?
So if you don't change, youcan't create a different system.
So I think it's important toactually see the individual
aspect of it first, and that waywe can actually come together
and create a system that worksfor us.
And so one of the reasons why Iwrite or I speak and I do
(49:54):
workshops because I want peopleto be responsible, take
ownership of themselves.
Right, I'm actually working onthe six weeks program.
It's called Designing yourSuperpower Life, the Power of
Self-Ownership.
Even if this system wasdifferent, if you're not in a
mental space to actuallyunderstand the system and
(50:14):
receive it, it won't change foryou.
And so I think it's importantto look at the individual aspect
of it and say you know what?
I'm choosing to change myhousehold.
I'm choosing to change me.
It has start small, yeah, so wecan actually get bigger if
we're looking at the biggerspace, the bigger picture, right
, we cannot change thegenerations removed.
Speaker 2 (50:37):
If it ever changes, it's designed to be this way,
right, right.
Speaker 3 (50:41):
It's functioning the way it was supposed to exactly
because you can't.
Speaker 1 (50:43):
You know you, because if well, I'm going to focus on
the system, there's always goingto be pushback, even if it's
unhealthy.
So if I want to change thesystem, I have to get people to
change so we can actually createa system that works
collectively.
Speaker 2 (50:57):
For us as black folks .
That's a great place to end it.
Man, how do people find you?
Speaker 1 (51:02):
I am on social media.
If you Google my name, MarkMoplazier,
M-A-R-K-M-O-M-P-L-E-I-S-I-R,you'll find me everywhere,
really, but Instagram, TikTok,YouTube.
I have a website calledhealingvibesorg.
Speaker 2 (51:17):
Thanks immensely, brother, for being here being
part of the show all the wayfrom New York.
Yes, yes, you know I'm going topretend you came here just for
me.
Speaker 1 (51:26):
I'll take that.
I'll take that I shouldn't bedead.
Yeah, right, I did, I did.
That's exactly what happened.
That was the point.
Yeah, exactly, and Zole, thankyou, brother, for being here,
man, thank you for inviting mebrother.
Speaker 2 (51:36):
Yeah, appreciate your input, brother.
Speaker 3 (51:46):
Do at reddog underscore Murph.
I'm kind of on TikTok right now.
I deleted my Facebook account.
Speaker 2 (51:48):
Reddog Murph is also on Instagram Cool Good.
So, as you know, traditionallywhen we end the show, someone
has to read the outro notes.
Speaker 1 (51:56):
Yeah, it's funny.
Speaker 2 (51:57):
Doing an impression, yeah, man.
So Mark Moplezier has lost thecoin toss again.
Speaker 1 (52:04):
So again two Twice in a row.
Speaker 2 (52:07):
Alright, so we flipped it.
Speaker 1 (52:09):
It looks like Zol's, got it Zol's got it man.
Speaker 2 (52:13):
He volunteered, he's gonna do it and you're gonna do
Mbaku From Black Panther.
Alright, let's get it bro.
Speaker 3 (52:21):
So my brothers have invited us To Express our.
So my brothers have invited ushere to express our views on
manhood and matters of manhood,and so for this I am grateful,
and so we would ask for you, ourdear listeners, to please
(52:41):
support us all.
By following this show.
You will leave us a five-starreview.
Apple podcast.
To be fair, we appreciate youtuning in, so we say thank you
so much for listening.
We'll catch you next week whenwe'll share conversations, sound
(53:02):
rounding, real issues we, asmen, deal with every day.
It never changes.
One thing to know is thatmanhood matters.
We are out.
Speaker 2 (53:19):
We are out, Awesome brother.
Speaker 1 (53:23):
Oh man that was good.
Speaker 3 (53:25):
That was good, that was good.
That's my worst act we havewatched from the mountains.
Speaker 2 (53:31):
I'm terrible, I'm terrible, I'm terrible, I'm
terrible, I'm terrible, I'mterrible, I'm terrible, I'm
terrible, I'm terrible, I'mterrible, I'm terrible, I'm
terrible, I'm terrible, I'mterrible, I'm terrible, I'm
terrible, I'm terrible.
I'm terrible I hey guys, a quickword.
(53:54):
The purpose of this show is toeducate and entertain.
We love bringing you valuabletools that you can utilize, but
this is in no way supposed to bea substitute for any medical
advice, legal advice, and we arenot therapists.
If you are struggling withanything, consult a licensed
(54:14):
therapist counselor.
But we do send you our love andour strength.
And oh, and before I go, thisis the most important thing
that's happening today.
Today is July 28th 2025, whenthis episode is released, and
it's my baby girl's birthday.
She turns 10 today and she's soexcited.
(54:35):
Eva, you are my heart.
I love you so much, baby, and Iwant to take this moment to
wish you the happiest birthdayof all.
Welcome to Double Digits, and Iwill see you on our date this
evening.
Love you, baby.
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