July 21, 2025 • 53 mins
We explore the complex relationship between Haiti and other Black communities while confronting how colonial narratives have created artificial divisions within the African diaspora.
• Examining the stigma Haitian-Americans faced growing up in the United States
• Understanding how media has consistently portrayed Haiti negatively to undermine its revolutionary legacy
• Uncovering Haiti's significance as the first free Black republic and how it threatened global white supremacy
• Learning about foreign interference in Haiti, including the American occupation from 1915-1934
• Discussing how classism within Black communities perpetuates division and mirrors colonial hierarchies
• Exploring how Haitians and other immigrants often arrive with prejudices against African-Americans
• Recognizing that Black unity requires understanding our shared history and identity beyond national borders
• Emphasizing that education about our interconnected past is essential to building solidarity
Please support us by following the show. Leave us a 5-star review on Apple Podcast. Thank you so much for listening. We'll catch you next week when we share conversations surrounding real issues we deal with every day. Manhood Matters we out.
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Host: StéphaneAlexandre
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
So selling us the story of we are always against
ourselves.
No, we were taught to beagainst ourselves, right, we
were taught to see the nextblack person as an enemy, and so
I think you know again, like wehave to learn the history, we
have to understand it.
So we don't allow the storythat has been taught to us to
(00:20):
dictate how we see ourselves andhow we treat one another.
Speaker 2 (00:24):
So it starts with a larger global love and
appreciation for black people asa whole, understanding that we
are.
Do you know someone from Haiti?
A friend, a coworker, maybe?
Now did the American media getit right.
When you go out to lunch withyour friend, do they hang out in
a parking lot and eat trees?
(00:44):
Or maybe try to catch someone'spet?
Or do you worry about thisvoodoo spell they might cast on
you?
Now have you given any thoughtto why the colonizers paint the
first free black nation on earthas savages?
Not even a little bit.
There is obviously a cleardivide between Haiti and a lot
(01:06):
of other predominantly blacknations, but there shouldn't be.
This conversation aims toexplain why.
It's the history lesson youdidn't even know you needed, but
here it is.
As black people all over theglobe, there is so much more
that unites us.
I am joined for the first timeon the pod by Zole Murphy, first
(01:29):
generation American.
Stanley Jean and both myself,your host Stefan and this last
guest, mr Mark Monplaisir, wereborn in Haiti and had to learn
to navigate through the bullying, the shame, the stigma that
came with growing up Haitian inthe States.
You will learn so much fromthis episode.
(01:50):
Welcome to Manhood Matters.
Let's get to it.
Why don't we just go aroundintroducing ourselves real quick
(02:12):
?
Speaker 3 (02:13):
I'm Stanley.
Of course I'm a married guy,I'm a father, I have two girls.
I'm back in school trying to gointo the route of going into
medicine right now, so pray forme, it's a journey, but in the
next year or so I should.
Right now, so pray for me, it'sa journey, but, um, in the next
year or so I should be all goodthat's what's up.
Speaker 1 (02:30):
Uh well, my name is mark mplezier.
I am an author, organizationalpsychologist, also getting my
phd.
Yes, sir, right now alsotraining specialist health and
wellness coach you do it all.
Public speaker uh you can tellhe's comfortable with it right
right um, yeah, so really happyto be here, man, and then being
in atlanta from new york hangingout with these guys so yeah.
(02:54):
So I'm excited, man, I'mexcited, I'm excited for this
conversation.
Speaker 5 (02:56):
My man, my name is old murphy and I am a retired
atlanta police sergeant, nice,so recently retired.
I've been out of it forprobably about two years, coming
up on two years, and I foundmyself now in the film industry
just by accident, or luck oryeah, I'm not sure which was it
was meant to be it was meant tobe Synchronicity.
Speaker 6 (03:19):
Yes.
Speaker 5 (03:20):
And so everything fell into place.
My wife and I are both into itnow and learning just at light
speed, it seems like, so I'mgrateful for the privilege of
being here with you, brothers.
Speaker 2 (03:31):
Thank you.
Speaker 5 (03:31):
That's awesome man.
Speaker 2 (03:32):
The reason we wanted to have this conversation is
because I've lived through itand I continue to see it to
where there's a lot of prejudiceagainst Haitians.
Now I'm most expected when Isee it from whether it be
Americans or white peoplespecifically, but when I see it
from fellow Islanders, when Isee it from other black people,
then it's just like what are wedoing?
What's going on here?
(03:53):
And I remember veryspecifically like my first brush
with it.
You know, I get to school.
I know three words in English.
This girl, she looks at me, shegoes what are you?
So I was like, like I didn'tknow how to say what do you mean
?
So I just kept on shrugging myshoulder right?
like that's universal yeah I waslike she should understand that
, but I knew what she was sayingand she goes are you black, am
(04:15):
I black, right?
So there was another guy whounderstood, he's haitian, but he
was brought up here and tryingto translate I was like, no, no,
I understand what she's saying,right, but I don't understand
the question what do you mean?
I'm black, yeah, and then shegoes.
So she goes to him like is heblack or is he haitian?
So then I said I'm haitian,also black, right.
(04:37):
But I understand, obviously, asI matured, I get where she
totally could not connect thedots, right, and in her mind,
being black is a nationality,where in reality it's obviously
not, but in their mind it's likeno, no, no, black is a title
that we have asAfrican-Americans.
You're something else, butyou're not black, which
obviously makes zero sense,right?
(04:57):
We're all from African descent.
I like that term that you use.
You use the frame Africandescent.
Yeah, I didn't want to useblack or white, yeah, black or
African American, but it's allAfrican descent.
I once read something it saidthe only difference between a
Jamaican, haitian, all thesedifferent black countries is a
boat, where the boat drops youoff when the boat drops you off
right.
Speaker 3 (05:14):
My brother could have been on that boat, and he got
dropped off in Jamaica and Idropped off in Haiti, correct?
Speaker 2 (05:18):
Right, it's the same.
Growing up, there was so muchstigma which the media
propagated against Haitians towhere I grew up with a lot of
prejudice, even at the hand ofwhat should be my brothers.
So I dealt with it in highschool a lot.
Unfortunately for me, my accentwas too thick to hide the fact
that I was Haitian, becausethere were a lot of guys in my
(05:40):
school that would pretend theywere not Haitian.
Mark with a K, mark with a C isHait Haitian.
Speaker 6 (05:45):
Mark with a K, mark with a C is Haitian.
Speaker 4 (05:48):
Mark with a K is American.
He got away with it.
You know what I mean.
Speaker 2 (05:51):
I kind of got away with it with the name, because
they they would pronounce itAlexander instead of Alexandre
and they would say Stepheninstead of Stefan.
So I was like, oh man, that'snot American as hell you know,
steven alexanderso careful I was going ignorant
man, the first year that I washere, I went by steven alexander
for a whole year.
Then the next year anotherteacher mispronounced my name
(06:12):
and called me stefan.
I was like, oh, that's great,even better, that's closer,
right.
But now I'm stefan alexander,still mispronounced totally, and
I went by that all the waythrough high school, in fact all
four years.
It wasn't until after highschool that I started finding
myself and whatnot.
So we'll talk about each of ourexperiences individually and
just how tough they were, howbad they were and what today
(06:34):
looks like.
But when did you?
Speaker 1 (06:35):
come here, Mark.
So I was 17 when I came in 1999.
That's crazy.
Speaker 2 (06:41):
Bro, you have no accent, I mean I can hear it, it
but if I'm really payingattention, there'll be a word
here in this country like peopletell me I don't sound haitian
until I start speaking fastenough, they're like gotcha.
Speaker 5 (06:54):
I can hear it with each of you.
Yours is a bit difficult.
Speaker 2 (06:57):
He's born here, that's what people say, but I
could hear it I know it might bea way you speak, a certain way
you certain words, but there'sno words that you use.
Speaker 3 (07:07):
That's gonna give you up maybe not, but for me again,
I was born here, right, right Iwas only haitian at home.
Speaker 1 (07:17):
He was one of the lucky ones but the last thing
was gene you can't run away.
You were haitian.
Speaker 3 (07:26):
Haitian, yeah, it was cool staff is a little older
than me, so he experienceddiscrimination.
If I want, to call it if I wantto call it that, but for me it
was just like urban kid, theyknew, but it wasn't a big deal
because my building was like theun.
There was the jamaicans,dominicans, puerto ric, you know
, haitians, whatever.
So it was cool, but going toschool like we all did the same
(07:47):
things.
But then again I still knew Ididn't want to bring a Haitian
flag to school.
That wasn't going to work outBecause again, you want to fit
in, like I was telling Steph,saying you're Haitian is a
ticket right out of that group.
So it was like yo, that's whatit was.
Speaker 1 (08:13):
But when I it right out of that group so it was like
yo, that's what it was.
Speaker 2 (08:14):
But when I got to high school, it was like 1993,
94 fujis came out.
Speaker 4 (08:17):
I was cool by the time.
Speaker 2 (08:17):
Thank you, white man, right, thank you.
That is one thing we can saywhen he came out, he was so
proud of being haitian and hewas cool because he had the
music and everything else andeveryone started admitting they
were admitting all the dudesthat I knew in high school they
were were like oh, I'm Haitiantoo.
Oh, I'd run into them.
I'm like nigga, you try to jumpme with the.
Speaker 4 (08:29):
Jamaicans.
Speaker 1 (08:30):
You know you try to jump me Like when they came
after me, you were in that grouppretending you didn't speak a
word of Creole.
Speaker 2 (08:37):
I got a story for you , yeah, and and then here we are
, four years later he sees mebecause then I got into music,
right, so I'm playing, I'm in aband, I'm in music, and he comes
to the party and he's like,comes up to me, hey, we were in
high school together.
I'm like, yeah, I remember you.
What are you doing here?
He's like I'm Haitian, ohreally.
Speaker 1 (09:03):
Oh, you're Hait go.
Oh man, His mom showed upspeaking Creole Blew him up.
Speaker 4 (09:07):
Yeah, asking for him.
Speaker 1 (09:08):
They were like wait, you Haitian?
He was like uh, my parents are.
Speaker 2 (09:12):
My parents are.
That's the answer.
And I'm like, and I'm Haitianand I was like it's.
So is that bad to be Haitian,bro?
Like I didn't even know I wasblack until I came to america.
True, I thought I was justhaitian.
Yeah, so I started out bytalking about the distinction.
Right, but talk about that andexplain it to people, because I
(09:32):
didn't grow up with that complexof white.
People are superior, so I couldgive a shit about you being
white.
Speaker 1 (09:37):
I don't give a damn.
When I came here right thefirst time I experienced any
like racism, my dad and I we goton a bus.
We're going downtown Boston andthen this white lady was
sitting.
There was a sit empty seat nextto her and I went and sat down.
She looked at me in disgust andgot up.
So I looked at my dad.
I'm like what happened?
(09:58):
and my dad was like don't worryabout it, that's that's just
racism right, that's just howthey are, and that was my first
time like, wow, okay, well, I'mdifferent.
I don't know how far back youwant to take it to history,
right?
Yeah, if we look at, you know,when the you know desalines,
they, they fought the fringe.
Yeah, and we became independentin 1804, and after that there
was a division betweenlight-skinned folks in the south
(10:21):
and dark-skinned folk in thenorth, and so you, you had, you
know, alexandre Pétion,alexandre.
Speaker 7 (10:26):
Pétion, and then Henri Christophe.
Henri Christophe right.
Speaker 1 (10:28):
So Alexandre Pétion was in charge of the
light-skinned folks, right?
Speaker 2 (10:32):
In the South.
Right the mulattos, yeah, themulattos, exactly.
Speaker 1 (10:35):
And then you had this is.
Henri Christophe, this isChrist dead at that point.
Right and so so you had himbeing in charge of the black
little dark-skinned folks.
Right and so the division wasthe mulattoes had all the power,
and so post.
You know, america used tocontrol haiti 1915.
Speaker 2 (10:56):
Yeah, yeah, real quick when it comes to that.
So what happened?
This was a forced invasion.
Let's be clear on that right, sothe marines invaded, yeah, we
invite this mother so theybasically invaded haiti and said
it's almost like there was aslap in the face Like how dare
you be, this little free Negrocountry who beat the French?
So now that we are all messedup, we don't have the power
(11:17):
anymore, or whatever it was theysent the Marines down there and
invaded.
Haiti.
It was a cool?
Yep, it was, and it took overthe country for some 25 years
yeah, um, it wasn't that long,okay.
Speaker 1 (11:27):
Uh, so I think so like 1915 to 1934.
How long is that?
Almost 20 years 15 yeah okay,yeah, so.
so after that, haiti just was injust disarray, right, yeah, so
it wasn't necessarily aboutcolor.
It was more like okay, well, ifyou are in charge of all the
resources, if we're beingtreated as if we're peasants,
then we have to fight for more,so so that's a story.
(11:50):
Is that the dark-skinned folkswere hateful towards the
light-skinned folks?
Not quite what it was.
It was more like well, youtreat me as if I'm not haitian,
right, because I I don't French,because I don't have all the
resources, I don't have money,because it's almost like they
see light-skinned folks assuperior.
You have money, you have.
Speaker 4 (12:11):
Oh they have the means.
Speaker 1 (12:12):
You have beauty right .
Speaker 2 (12:14):
The standard of beauty you know light-skinned,
soft hair Like America.
Right.
Speaker 1 (12:18):
Exactly.
I mean it's all based onEuropean standards.
Correct, and so that created afight where, if we go forward
when Papa Doc was what, 1957 to1971,?
Right, I know my history, babyyou guys.
Speaker 2 (12:32):
Yeah, that's right, that history lets us know the
original Papa Doc.
Speaker 1 (12:37):
So Papa Doc was like the common Haitian he won the
vote based on the fact that hewas for everybody right, correct
, the people's president, foreverybody.
Speaker 2 (12:45):
Right, correct the people's president, exactly
right.
Speaker 1 (12:46):
Educated to, and then America was against it because
he created the army.
They couldn't just go inwhenever they wanted.
So when he died, his son tookover, baby Doc was 19.
Speaker 3 (12:57):
Disaster.
Speaker 1 (12:58):
Right Again in the 80s, the dark-skinned folks
revolted again.
They're like well, I'm stillbeing treated as if I'm nothing.
Speaker 2 (13:07):
I think it was like 1984.
, 1986.
, 86.
Okay.
And I know that exact datebecause that's when I had to
leave the country, there waschaos, so in.
February of 86, baby Doc wasexiled, yep, and a week later I
was on a plane.
Got it.
Wow, right, so yeah.
Speaker 3 (13:25):
So Right, so yeah, so the dark skinned folks, you
were among those who had statusSame with your chest.
Speaker 2 (13:27):
Life was good.
It really wasn't Okay.
Speaker 1 (13:32):
But if it even seemed like you had the means right,
you were in control.
Then they were against you.
But again, it wasn't because ofcolor, it was, more, like you,
of representation.
Speaker 2 (13:42):
That government that had fallen here, exactly Right.
Speaker 1 (13:45):
And so a lot.
So that created this divisionin Haiti and after that again we
went back to disarray.
The country was just in chaos.
Speaker 2 (13:54):
I think there's a big piece that really matters here
as well, mark, it's the factthat, at every step of the way,
there's always been foreigninterference.
Yes, the major powers havealways infiltrated the
government and placed theirpuppets in place, because if the
country is killing itself fromwithin, it's easy to dominate
(14:15):
from without.
Haiti's demise comes from twothings.
Number one it comes from thefact that Haitians are the first
black republic we dared tobecome free.
You have to understand that isan assault and a slap in the
face of white people.
We are right here in, basicallyin America's turf.
So you look at this big, great,giant nation and then there's a
(14:35):
little black Republic thatdared to defy.
Speaker 1 (14:39):
We get punished by everybody.
Speaker 2 (14:41):
Yeah, while they still have slavery, they still
had slavery for another 60 years.
In this country, we're a freeblack Republic.
We're telling black Americansif you can escape and come over
here, pull up, we got you.
We're here, and not only did wedo that 10 years after, I want
to say 1815, cause 1804, haitigets their independence.
1815, pétion.
He's named the father ofPan-Americanism.
(15:03):
If you guys know anything aboutSouth America and their history
and their independence, none ofthem were free.
So then there's a guy, simonBolivar.
So he's the main guy who freedall of the Americas.
He's lost his battle, so hegets on his ships with him and a
few soldiers and they escape,running for their lives.
They left South America.
(15:23):
He ends up in Haiti, notlooking for a way to go back,
looking for asylum, pidz, youknow, at the time he's like nah
man, we just fought the French,we just beat them.
So how about I give you ships,weapons, everything that you
need and go back out there?
Speaker 4 (15:36):
Go back out there and fight.
Speaker 2 (15:39):
So he replenished him , gave him strategies and
everything else, and he wentback out there freed his people.
He goes under one condition youcan't just free your country,
you have to go and free everyother country in South America,
Because all we wanted to do wasfight against the colonizers.
There's a bust and a statue ofhim both in Colombia and Ecuador
.
That's pretty dope.
Speaker 3 (15:59):
That's that red and blue fabric right Correct, on
all those flags, that's right.
Speaker 2 (16:05):
That's right.
That's right.
I say all that to saycolonizers are vexed and they
imposed embargoes on haiti.
We could not trade.
So then what good are yourresources now?
This is not the one youremember.
This is one from before.
This is we're talking like1800s.
Yeah, you could have all thecoffee and all the shit in the
world but we're not buying it.
We can't trade, we can't tradeso you're stuck, and then the
country started to cannibalizeitself, right.
Speaker 1 (16:26):
And we also had to pay friends a lot of money for
not being slaves.
Speaker 2 (16:30):
So we're dying from within, right.
And then friends comes back andsays, now that we kind of
regrouped, we're going to comeback and reinvade your country
and attack, basically go to warwith you.
Yeah, and attack, basically goto war with you, unless you pay
us some billions of dollarsbecause you took away our
resources and our property.
Which is you, a bunch of slaves?
(16:52):
You're our property and youhave to pay for your own freedom
.
So we paid, it Sounds aboutright.
Speaker 1 (16:57):
So we paid this debt of billions which Back then
we're talking about so it's like$500 million, which equates to
like $21 billion today.
Speaker 2 (17:07):
So they owe us that money.
As far as I'm concerned, theyowe us every last dime of that
money that we have to pay backto Haiti.
Today, agreed People askquestions about Haitians.
Why is there so much trouble inyour country?
Based on everything I just said, so there's that.
And then, anytime someone stepsup who would do something
positive, they get killed, theyget drowned In.
And then, anytime someone stepsup, who would do something
positive.
Speaker 3 (17:25):
they get killed.
They get drowned In some waysomehow, that's true.
Speaker 2 (17:27):
They get killed, and they get killed by foreign
governments who come in and dowhat they got to do, because you
shouldn't be what you are Right.
Speaker 1 (17:33):
I don't think we'll ever have true stabilization in
Haiti.
I don't think that's ever goingto happen.
Speaker 2 (17:39):
I don't know.
I'm more hopeful.
Yeah, I am too, but the realityis man.
It seems bleak from here I thinkit's going to come from outside
of the country.
Well, I don't mean from, like,foreigners.
I think it's going to come frompeople who are Haitians, who
are born outside of Haiti, whogo back to Haiti, because, even
if you look at social media likeyou, look at certain people
that are really willing to throwthemselves on the front line
(18:01):
and fight for Haiti.
These are born, raisedAmericans and whatnot, and
they're fighting for socialjustice.
That'd be the only kind ofpeople who'd go back with
financial support if they had it, but out of the ashes, I don't
see anyone rising from.
Haiti itself from within to dowhat they got to do.
Speaker 5 (18:19):
May I ask a question about that just?
Sitting back and listening.
What is the solution in youropinions?
What is the return route forHaiti to be able to recover from
years of just being punished?
For being free.
I like that you use that word.
Speaker 1 (18:34):
That's exactly what it is.
Speaker 2 (18:35):
Being punished for being free.
Speaker 1 (18:37):
We've gotten so far and even when we look at our
people, the mindset, the lack ofeducation, the hunger, lack of
jobs, we would need goodleadership.
I think that's one.
Having somebody who one wantsto see Haiti win, who cares
about the people and also whoknows how to manage resources
(18:59):
and not just hoard resources forthemselves right.
Having folks who care likedeeply care about the wellbeing
of Haitians right.
How can I help my people?
And not just want to be inpower.
We can have a good leadershipin power, right In position, but
if the Haitians don't feel goodabout it, we can get very
(19:21):
emotional.
Speaker 3 (19:22):
Oh, no, big time.
Speaker 1 (19:23):
Right, and part of that is because we don't have
resources.
A lot of folks are hungry,right, and when you have that,
it's easy.
It's easy to lose yourself andsay you know, we're going to
fight to get what we want, andwe do have that history.
But I think it will take ashift where Haitians understand
you know what, again, comingfrom a leader, it's not going to
(19:45):
happen overnight, it may nothappen in our generation, but
the goal is to get on the samepage, understand that Haiti can
change, can get better, but wehave to do it together, and I
will be your leader to guidethis process, but I can't do it
alone.
So if you can get Haitians tobe hopeful about change while
(20:06):
you're actually creatingtangible work, resources for
them to actually see the change,I think we can get there.
Speaker 2 (20:14):
Vernon Boyle was just being interviewed.
I don't know if you guys haveseen this interview With.
Speaker 7 (20:18):
Joey.
Speaker 2 (20:19):
Yeah, so he has a song with Joey Duet-Fill filet
which is the most popular songever, right now I know so, he
was being interviewed about it,but what he said about haitians,
um, I think, is something.
I think that before we'rehaitian, we're black folks,
right in my opinion I think,before we're haitian, we're
black we're africans exactlywe're africans and before that
(20:39):
we're human.
So it's like so to me, likehaitian just comes like way
later there's a certainunification among black people.
That has to happen.
Yeah, I think, all over theworld.
It needs to be a globalmovement.
Yes, um, so that when a foreignpower wants to again put their
foot on a little black country's, neck other people can be like,
well, no, no, you're not, we'renot doing that right.
(21:00):
And instead of joining the themedia and oh, look at heidi Hedy
, ha ha, you know and making funof it.
Or, like I said, like we grewup in the 80s and 90s, you know,
watching that stuff, it needsto be more of a unification.
But anyway, this is what hesaid.
Let me see if I can play it foryou guys.
Speaker 7 (21:15):
Now you bring Joé Dwelle Fillet out at your
concert in France.
What did that feel like for him?
This is a very big moment,right?
Because I feel like Haitianpeople don't get the
acknowledgement and the loveExactly which they should.
Speaker 6 (21:37):
They should probably get more love than everyone else
because they started therevolution.
That's right, so really weshould all be paying homage, be
very thankful we should all payhomage to them, and they still
suffer for it to this day.
That's right them.
And they still suffer for it tothis day.
That's right.
So, really, we should all rallybehind them to make sure that
those consequences that they saythey're being imposed on them
(22:00):
for being the leaders of therevolution don't fly.
That's right, because we're sopowerful and we're so many.
So why are we letting what'shappening in Haiti happen?
You know what I mean.
Why are we letting what'shappening in Congo happen?
That's right.
Speaker 2 (22:13):
Here you are.
You have a Nigerian who waslooking at it and seeing Haiti
as the leaders of the revolutionright, they started it.
I'm not saying it to be likeevery time someone sees me bow
down Walk with a Haitian flag.
Speaker 7 (22:27):
Respect buddy.
Speaker 2 (22:28):
How many times are you going to say thank you to?
Speaker 1 (22:29):
me.
Speaker 2 (22:32):
But at the very least stop shitting on them right,
right, right.
Because again, like at megrowing up in new york, I will
say I dealt with a lot of racismfrom long island we know yeah,
what does?
Speaker 3 (22:45):
that mean no, because long island is known.
Yeah, I mean so I was.
Speaker 2 (22:49):
I was on it, I was dealing with that stuff, but
when it happened, either it wentover my head or it was what it
was.
It was expected.
But when it came from ourpeople whether it was a Haitian
pretending not to be Haitian ora Jamaican attacking me, or a
Trini or some other dude or someHispanic kid, and all they need
to find out was you're HaitianI remember when they found out
(23:10):
Al Bishro was Haitian oh my God,I remember it being jacked up
man and all of the things thatthey said about Haitians during
that time.
You guys remember the 4H thing4H, what is that?
So, in fact, let me grab mine.
That's what I was talking aboutthe AIDS.
Speaker 1 (23:24):
Yes, it is, it is that.
Speaker 2 (23:33):
Oh, okay, four countries that were initially
okay accused of having createdaids, and that's where aids came
from.
Yeah, this is early 80s, rightearly 80s, and they're like aids
came from haiti and we're likewhat the fuck?
Speaker 7 (23:40):
we're a clean little organic country, bro.
Speaker 2 (23:41):
We got nothing to do with your labs and everything
that you got going on, but haitiwas accused of being one of
those things.
Yeah, to me this is crazy.
Speaker 3 (23:48):
This happened.
I was alive.
But a lot of this is brand newto me.
You were a baby.
Yeah, pretty much.
Speaker 4 (23:55):
Yeah, I mean.
Speaker 3 (23:56):
I was too.
Speaker 1 (23:57):
Yeah, what were you born 79.
I'm 43.
Okay.
Speaker 3 (24:00):
Yeah, two years 81?
.
Speaker 1 (24:02):
Yeah, what 82?
, 82?
Speaker 3 (24:04):
Yeah, so for me living here.
So America is a well-oiledmachine, right?
They narrate what they want tonarrate right.
So now, when it comes down toHaiti and what kind of
information they allow, it'smostly negative.
You know everyone.
We have to contribute a dollarfor these Haitian kids, this,
(24:26):
that and the other.
So we were never looked at assomething to be proud of, right?
Speaker 4 (24:29):
Correct that's number one.
Speaker 3 (24:33):
So I'm born here, i'mitian, I'm, I'm really
haitian.
Yeah, a hundred percent.
Yeah, I don't know half of whatyou said earlier, true, all I
know is in 1804 we were thefirst right.
All right, okay, big ups, butunderstanding how the external
forces plays of till today,still playing a role it, it does
something to us.
(24:53):
So now, if I didn't know, I'mpretty sure the african-american
or jamaican probably didn'tknow in school.
So it's not taught yeah, rightso if I'm not here to hear it, I
wouldn't know so.
Therefore, it's hard to say inschool you're haitian and be
proud of it, because there'snothing to be proud of according
to the story and the narrativeof America and CNN Because it's
(25:16):
on the news, as Haitians haveAIDS.
Speaker 6 (25:19):
Haitians created.
Speaker 2 (25:19):
AIDS.
Speaker 7 (25:20):
So how do I go to school?
Speaker 2 (25:21):
the next day.
I'm a 14, 15 year old kid who'salready got language.
You crust Dude.
Speaker 7 (25:27):
I'm messed up.
You're ashamed of yourself.
Speaker 2 (25:28):
I'm over there like yeah, you don't even want to
show up and also I'm not thisbig intimidating guy where,
because there's a couple ofHaitians men, you know them,
straight dudes with no shoes andshit.
Speaker 5 (25:41):
Maybe they go learn in school where we won.
When I say we black people, iny'all's case the Haitians like
where did we have a story wherewe did something amazing in
school and then that victory wascelebrated?
I don't even remember anythingin public school even close to
that.
No, no.
Speaker 2 (25:58):
It wasn't talked about.
Speaker 5 (26:00):
Even the stories of Harriet Tubman.
They didn't share with us thatshe was a spy and carried a gun.
We didn't know.
Speaker 1 (26:04):
That's the thing, that's the issue, right, and I
think there's a George Santayanawho said those who don't know
history are doomed to repeat it.
Speaker 3 (26:14):
And.
Speaker 1 (26:14):
I think that's one of our issues in the black, not
just Haitians.
Right In the black community,we don't know our history and we
end up treating each other theway the masses treated us
Exactly.
There you go.
You should sit right there.
You know what I'm saying.
Speaker 2 (26:28):
We treat them the way we were treated, because as
soon as we get the leg up, wethink, oh well exactly, we're
better, I mean look, yeah,racism at some point is
fabricated, is created, because,well, look, you're the poor
whites, but at least you're notblack, so you're better than
that's what they, what they usethem, right, exactly exactly so
the same thing, they look at allthe blacks and all the
americans like well, at leastyou're not haitian right, yeah,
(26:48):
I'm telling you, you just keepgoing.
Haitians look at each other andsay, well shit, at least I'm not
D'Arcyan right and it's all,and it goes, and it just yeah,
so I always say look, if we wereall exactly we all came from,
let's say, one giant continentwhere there was no break and we
all looked the same same heights, and we would still, as humans,
(27:09):
find a way to discriminateagainst somebody else to feel
superior by just being born intothis.
Speaker 1 (27:15):
Right, it used to be faint like last names.
Right, you know you're fromthis tribe, correct.
Right, then you have money.
Then you, you know you're royal.
Right, it always existed inAfrica.
I took this one course theAfrican.
I think it was theAfrican-American experience in
college.
It blew my mind.
We were taught to be the way weare today.
(27:36):
Right, white folks will tellyou, africans sold Africans to
white people they love sayingthat shit.
Speaker 3 (27:42):
That was not the case , so I didn't want to break up
the storyline, but that's notthe case.
That was not the case.
No, no, no.
Speaker 1 (27:50):
They went with guns and alcohol and threatened one
tribe.
If you don't give me access tothis, I'm going to let the other
tribe I'm going to give theother tribe guns to come destroy
you Right.
And so with that it's like well, I don't want you to annihilate
my tribe.
Then you know, I'm going tosell the other tribe to you,
right, and let you do what youneed to do you're under duress
(28:11):
again I don't want to say Idon't keep saying white folks,
but like european folks, right,that's what they did, right?
so selling us the story of weare always against ourselves, no
, we were taught to be againstourselves, right, we were taught
to see the next black person asan enemy.
And so I think you know again,like we have to learn the
(28:34):
history, we have to understandit.
So we don't allow the storythat has been perpetrated or
taught to us to dictate how, asa whole, understanding that we
are one and we are the same thatboat drops should not have man.
Speaker 2 (28:57):
Totally to this point .
This is years later.
It's like they've taught youcertain things, yeah, and then
you're still being mind fuckedfour centuries later right at
some point, you gotta go.
Okay, that's what the masterswanted me to hear, right, but I
have to realize.
I mean, think about the haitianrevolution itself.
Yeah, I always remind people,the haitian revolution was
started by a voodoo priest rightnamed bookman, where, was he
(29:19):
from?
Jamaica correct, yeah, right sohe was a slave from jamaica who
was sent to haiti?
and, you know, started thehaitian revolution in a way with
that very prominent voodooceremony.
But talk to a Jamaican aboutvoodoo.
Speaker 3 (29:35):
No, we don't do that shit and we know better Today we
know better.
Speaker 4 (29:40):
It's a cultural thing .
Speaker 2 (29:41):
But, here's the thing it's because of the stigma.
Why do you think voodoo's bad?
It's not.
It's exactly the same asCatholicism, except this one's
black.
It's exactly the same asCatholicism, except this one's
black Right.
But if you look at thehierarchy of angels and
archangels and saints and all ofthese different, I was raised
Catholic so I understand it andI look at the parallels with
(30:02):
voodoo, I'm like it's the samething, except one is black.
So what do you do if you're awhite person or you're a
colonizer?
Speaker 7 (30:10):
You demonize it.
Speaker 2 (30:11):
And then you say oh look, I'm going to make a movie
and show you Serpent and theRainbow Right.
Speaker 1 (30:14):
So you can see, oh, I remember that yeah.
Speaker 2 (30:16):
I'm going to go to school the next day.
Speaker 7 (30:18):
I was so scared I came out.
Speaker 2 (30:25):
I was like all this nonsense, man, You're seeing all
this crazy yes, you know, butmeanwhile there are videos all
over the internet showing whiteitalian people dancing with
haitian garb, with the whitesand the reds and everything else
, doing the doing, the rituals,the rituals, and they're just
seeing it as beautiful art andworship like new orleans.
Speaker 4 (30:44):
Yeah, exactly, go to new orleans, you know white
folks are like oh, this is, it'sgreat.
Speaker 2 (30:48):
Yeah, exactly but it is what I'm saying.
It's all about the educationman.
It's all about what we learn,what we know and what we accept
and what we question too,because a lot of people they
accept what it is.
I remember I was working.
I was at ups working.
I was much younger man and thenit was around christmas time
yeah and everyone's saying merrychristmas to each other and
(31:09):
leaving and he goes you hate,you celebrate Christmas and I
was like why wouldn't I?
So he goes.
Well, because I just figuredyou just do voodoo and that's it
.
Wow, I swear to God.
Speaker 3 (31:19):
He's just a product, though, right, right, you know
what I?
Speaker 2 (31:22):
mean.
So at that point I was oldenough to speak to him and
remind him that, went back tothat, that little piece of
history, and told him who thatguy is and I said he's who he is
because of my people and whatwe did to help you be where you
are right now talking to youabout voodoo, you dumb fuck.
Speaker 1 (31:39):
Yeah exactly, yeah.
Speaker 3 (31:41):
So if you don't know, man, yeah, if you don't know,
and it's hard to, actually, itis because who's going to teach,
right?
Speaker 5 (31:47):
do you see that there's a deficiency with us as
Southerners versus maybeNortherners in terms of the
black experience and beingsupportive to Haitians?
What?
Speaker 2 (31:57):
I've noticed is that the more educated people get it
Right, and the people who justlisten to the news and just
basically says, well, this iswhat the news is showing me.
You know, like there wassomething I think was like a
year ago, where there was thiswhite reporter who was on the
news and was like, well, youknow, they're in Haiti, they
can't eat, they can't find food.
Speaker 7 (32:15):
Yeah, and then she said what they're eating dirt,
they're eating dirt, they'reeating the trees she goes,
there's no more trees to eat thetrees and I was like.
Speaker 2 (32:22):
How is that even humanly possible?
Speaker 5 (32:24):
How is it Right?
I remember the clowning.
Speaker 2 (32:35):
Like no, it's not that bad.
Speaker 5 (32:37):
That's the only way you can respond to it.
Speaker 2 (32:38):
What do I have to do?
Really, we're eating trees.
Speaker 5 (32:40):
It's kind of like Trump did with the president of
Liberia.
Remember the other day he waslike oh, you speak English.
Speaker 2 (32:47):
Where'd you learn it?
It's the official language,right?
Speaker 3 (32:50):
You know I love Trump .
I'm going to tell you why.
Oh boy.
Speaker 7 (32:54):
I'm going to tell you why.
Speaker 3 (32:54):
Uh-oh.
Speaker 4 (32:55):
Uh-oh.
Speaker 3 (32:56):
No, hear me out, though.
The reason why is he's notscared to be a fool?
Yo, really, it's just like yo.
He just shows the ignorance youknow, that's there.
Speaker 2 (33:15):
He highlights it right, right.
Speaker 1 (33:16):
Yes, he really does totally totally, and just like
when he went to Puerto Ricoafter the tornado.
He was just like he asked forthat president, and they were
like sir, it's you right, right.
What I would say, though, toyour question?
I think you know a lot of folks, african descent folks, here
don't necessarily know who theyare.
Yeah, right, because you don'thave that foundation where you
can go back and say you knowwhat, what?
I'm from Haiti, I'm fromJamaica, I'm from Africa, right,
and so you look at yourself asAmericans, but you're not really
(33:37):
treated as Americans, and sothere is this cognitive
dissonance where I'm like, well,I'm not being treated as
American, but then I'm betterthan the black folks from the
Caribbean, right From the island.
Speaker 4 (33:47):
Right.
Speaker 1 (33:48):
And so I think we have again, like you were saying
, stefan, like we have to get toa space where we're like you
know what, even though I've beenhere, my ancestors are from
here, you know, from slavery,but we're still the same.
You're not different justbecause you're from Haiti or
Jamaica or wherever else, right?
So I think we had we have toget to a space where we can say
(34:10):
I am the same as you.
Yes, how can I support you?
How can we come together andmake sure that we have a
community that actually embraceall African descent people?
Speaker 5 (34:21):
I have noticed that, with people of Haitian descent,
you all have carry a muchdifferent level of confidence
with you when it comes down toyour interactions with white
folk.
It made me very aware that, asa 70s baby, I was taught, either
just through cultural cues orwhatnot, growing up, that there
(34:42):
was a way to act around whitefolks.
So meaning I became aware at anearly age that we were to cast
our eyes downward, for example,we were to make ourselves
smaller, don't be too loud,don't be too scary, and that was
the expectation.
Being a child of the South,have you all noticed a
difference?
Having not had that influenceof white folks to the same,
(35:05):
because I feel like it affectedmy confidence in being around
them, whereas y'all, out of therip and even as young men, were
far more confident than we were,having the influences of racism
and being expected to actcertain ways around white men.
Speaker 2 (35:19):
Big time.
So before I answer yourquestion, I know Mark wants to
jump in too.
You had to make yourself small.
How tall are you?
Speaker 3 (35:25):
Six five.
You're like 10 feet man Sixfive.
Speaker 5 (35:28):
but my kids told me I've lost a quarter inch.
Got it, got it, got it.
But that was the expectation,you know, to the extent that we
had to be smaller so that weweren't scary.
Speaker 1 (35:39):
You know that's a very interesting question.
Speaker 3 (35:42):
It really is.
Speaker 1 (35:43):
I love it actually yeah yeah, and here's the caveat
right.
As Haitians, we're actuallytaught the same thing, but when
it comes to adults, right.
Speaker 2 (35:53):
As children.
Speaker 1 (35:54):
You can't look adults in the eyes, right?
You can't talk back, right?
So there were a lot of thingsthat we were taught based on the
fact that we learned them fromslavery.
To go back to your question,black folks here, your, I don't
want to say your slavery endedlike 50 years ago.
Speaker 4 (36:09):
Right, exactly right.
Speaker 1 (36:11):
So, even when we talk about jim crow laws right, we
talk about segregation you stillhad to be protected, yeah, and
so your folks, your parents, hadto tell you you cannot confront
black, white folks as a way tofor you to be protected.
You can't go here because it'snot safe, right, because you
black, right.
(36:31):
So.
So it was a form of protectionfor you as Haitians.
That ended 200 years ago, right, right.
So a lot of us grew up withthat pride of blackness, right,
there's like we Haitians and wedidn't have that teaching where
we had to be told you can't lookat white folks because we
didn't have a lot of white folksin Haiti.
It be told you can't look atwhite folks because we didn't
(36:52):
have a lot of white folks inHaiti.
It was just like, well, we'reHaitians, right?
Yeah, so it's the teaching foryou because, again, you had to
be protected as a child andparents.
They were a lot of fears, likeI don't want you to go out and
not come home.
Speaker 2 (37:04):
That's exactly what I was going to say.
You know, I grew up in Haiti.
There was classism and again,keep in mind I just said earlier
, like humans will find a way todiscriminate against other
humans, no matter what.
So if it wasn't about how lightyour skin was, it was in my
family and the people I came uparound.
It was about a last name.
I would have friends that youknow.
Before they could come over andplay, they would ask who that
kid is, who their parents are.
My grandmother would determinewhether or not he can't come
(37:28):
over here.
If he's not, so-and-so, butthen I never.
What is it?
Five to six percent of whitesin Haiti.
So we're the majority.
And then there's a lot ofpeople who are mixed.
There's a lot of people fromthe Middle East, Syria and
places like that.
So we have a mixed culture, butit's predominantly black.
And it had to do with who youare, what you've accomplished,
also your level of education,and there, what you've
(37:49):
accomplished, also your level ofeducation.
There were times in Haiti whereI wasn't allowed to speak the
national language, our language.
At home.
I couldn't speak Creole.
You were bougie man.
Yeah, no, I didn't mean to sayyeah, I was happy to say yeah,
it's true.
Speaker 5 (38:02):
But I wasn't allowed.
Speaker 2 (38:05):
It was rude to my parents, To an Indian adult.
I could only speak French.
Speaker 3 (38:11):
So Creole was rude.
Yes, correct, wow, my language,my black language right, the
haitian language.
Speaker 2 (38:16):
It's because that's what my parents knew.
When my parents get together,my mother and father if one of
them could not speak french, itwould not be together, because
his education was up here, herswas up here and this they would
get together.
You would never find that mix.
Yeah, that was a badge of honor.
If he would try and talk to herand his French was messed up,
she'd be like no, you can't keepup, you can't even have a
(38:36):
conversation with me, so whywould I talk to you so?
then coming up.
I didn't speak Creole until Icame to the States, or unless I
was out in the streets with myfriends, and if I was out and
about we all.
Speaker 3 (38:53):
But that was it, and I gotta be real careful.
Who's hearing me?
You know so, even at home, youknow that.
At home, yeah, it actuallypermeates, you know, the
community stereotype and it justbreaks it apart still because.
Speaker 2 (38:59):
But again, I say all that to say that my sense of I
never, ever ever had a sense ofinferiority growing up in haiti.
So I come here and I run intowhite folks.
I don't think of you as youain't shit it doesn't matter to
me.
Speaker 3 (39:13):
It's funny.
You say that it sounds awesome.
Speaker 7 (39:15):
Yeah, I don't think of it.
Speaker 2 (39:17):
In fact, when I experienced racism the first two
or three times, I didn'trecognize it as such.
I could have been killed.
My first experience I'm walkingin the streets of Almonte, long
Island, and I'm carrying a bikebecause the wheel was broken.
So me and my friend who grew uphere terrified of white folks
because he's from Queens, andhe's walking in his Long Island
(39:38):
town with me and he's scared andhe tells me he's like man, I
don't like this man, I don'tlike this at all.
I'm like what are you talkingabout?
I live up the street, let's go.
And this guy gets out of the carand comes around hey, where do
you live?
Again, my English is so-so Iunderstood that.
I was like I live on Essex roadand he just keeps hounding us.
(40:00):
I thought he was lost.
I have zero fear.
I'm not understanding what'shappening.
My friends over here shaking.
I'm like I don't know what'shappening.
The guy's lost.
We need to give him directions.
So I said where do you want togo?
He's asking me where you don'tknow.
You looked at this, yeah, yeah.
So I'm like well, you needdirections.
Because I'm happy, because Iknow all these streets, because
you know I play out here.
So I'm like you know, this islocust wood, this is essex.
You know what?
What do you want to know?
(40:20):
And and he goes in his trunk,gets a bat.
Oh boy, I still don't knowwhat's going on, because I'm
maybe he's gonna help me fix thebike.
So I should know better, but Ididn't, because I did not
recognize that because I know Ididn't do anything to this
person he's an adult, I'm a kid.
Imagine me at 15.
I weigh 90 pounds, right, right, why would you?
(40:40):
I'm four feet four feet tall.
I weigh 90 pounds.
I'm not a threat to anyone, soI don't think that an adult
getting out of a car is a threatto me.
I'm not thinking that way.
Right, right, so it was anotherdude.
An older white guy who saw theinteraction stops his car, gets
out and he goes and pulls thisguy aside and tells him
something and the guy gets inhis car and leaves and he goes.
You boys can go home, yeahyou're about to kill a child
(41:02):
yeah, but there's times in myadult life, in my 40s, where
someone has been overtly racistthat I just thought they were
being an asshole.
I didn't think that you weredoing because I was black,
because I don't ever think thatfirst I go there second or third
.
Yeah, my first thought is oh,what a jerk.
I know.
Yeah same, yeah same for me.
And there's one thing, too,that we're guilty of, as haitian
(41:24):
people, big time guilty of.
Like I said before, we have ourown classism, right, it's who's
this kid?
You know, you don't play withthis kid because their last name
is so and so and it's like,yeah, no, that kid is beneath
you, right?
What are the shameful names?
The family, can we say it?
Can we talk about?
it no, no, so that's so.
That's a good question.
There's no such thing, butthere were names that were
(41:46):
associated with the people you'drun into in the capital.
Port-au-prince and there weresome names where we'd call these
people mountain folks.
What does that mean, mountainpeople?
We just call them mountainpeople.
They're from the hills.
Speaker 5 (41:57):
Country bumpkins.
Speaker 1 (42:00):
I'd be one of those.
Speaker 2 (42:01):
Okay, and even here, when I came here, I would hear
Haitians get into a scuffle andthey would insult each other and
I remember one person saying tothe other he goes.
The only reason I'm me and you,you and I are having a
discussion is because we're herein the United States.
Really, he goes in Haiti allthe time music.
Speaker 3 (42:18):
Yeah, exactly like when there's an argument.
That's exactly what that'stheir go-to you wouldn't even be
talking to me if I wasn't inAmerica playing in.
This is correct wow becauseoh'm the educated guy, I've got
the last name.
Speaker 7 (42:32):
I've got.
Speaker 2 (42:33):
But if we're in Haiti ?
No, your family works for myfamily, right as in, you clean
my house.
Speaker 5 (42:38):
That is such an ignorance.
Do they call it a caste there?
Do they acknowledge it as acasteism?
Speaker 3 (42:43):
It's known.
Speaker 1 (42:44):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (42:45):
It's just known.
So I used to go often everyyear, maybe two or three times a
year.
Yo guys, I apologize, I'm aboutto tell you a story.
No, go for it.
Speaker 1 (42:54):
Go for it, listen first time I went to Haiti, tell
me your white privilege story.
Well, almost Almost, almost.
Speaker 3 (43:02):
So first time I'm going to Haiti, you know they
had to figure something out, youknow to get me a passport.
And the first time I'm goingI'm like what?
17, 18, whatever?
Shout out to New York All Starsright, new York All Stars.
So the drummer couldn't go, sothey got me to replace or
whatever.
So I'm going to Haiti firsttime.
I didn't know if they hadfridges, I didn't know if they
(43:25):
had toilets.
I'm like maybe I got to go use.
Speaker 4 (43:28):
I didn't bring my own bag.
Speaker 3 (43:29):
They always used to tell me stories about people
going in the yard Get a latrineor whatever, maybe something
like that, I don't know, there'ssome truth to it, though.
I know I know, but it's not.
Speaker 2 (43:43):
You bumpkins.
Speaker 3 (43:44):
Yeah, I was fearful because I had this ignorance.
It was amazing.
So, sometimes I, I listen, Igive a pass, I give grace to
certain people we don't know,Right.
So I get to Haiti.
I'm just like yo.
They have toilets, the fridgeis dope, I didn't know.
I was able to order a burger,bro.
(44:05):
When I tell you my mind wasblown and fries, and I was at
Montana, I believe, or somethinglike that Dope-ass hotel.
When I tell you, I was blownaway and I came back and I was
trying to tell people, but it'shard to you know they think you
lying, Right.
Speaker 1 (44:20):
Right, yeah, because of the stories.
It's the same about Africa,africa is like the jungle.
Speaker 5 (44:27):
There's no electricity there, exactly.
Speaker 2 (44:31):
Even back to coming to America, you learn all that
shit fighting tigers and lies.
Speaker 6 (44:37):
Well, you learn all that.
Speaker 3 (44:38):
That's real.
It's true, man.
The ignorance is crazy.
No, it's real man.
Speaker 2 (44:44):
But what we're guilty of like big time is we carry
that prejudice right, inwhatever form, ourselves.
Because when I came here, thevery first thing my father told
me is don't you let me catch youplaying with none of these
little american bums, right, theblack americans who are beneath
the foreigners in their minds,so that, whether it be Haitians,
(45:05):
I know it's true in the Africancommunity as well.
I don't know if it's trueanywhere else, but I know the
Africans and again, it's olderignorance.
I don't know if it's reallyprevalent today, but there's a
lot of things that when ithappens in the black community
that the foreigners Haitians,africans will look at the black
Americans as if you're the causeof this, you, the black
Americans, as if you're thecause of this, you're the reason
they treat me that way.
I moved to Alpharetta andthere's prejudice because your
(45:27):
black ass came into theneighborhood and acted a fool.
So it's always to blame themand I always remind them.
I go.
You realize, the only reasonyou're here and you can live in
that neighborhood is because allof the black Americans who
fought for this because the itwasn't from Africa, right, it
was from the Dr Kings, it wasfrom the John Lewis's, it was
from all the people who did allthat to allow you to be here, so
(45:48):
be grateful, but initiallytheir first thought is no, these
people are different from usexample, you know when an adult
was in the room.
Speaker 5 (46:06):
You know children were to be seen and not heard.
Now, as a little boy, I didn'tlike that, but I was aware of it
.
You know what I mean.
But so I hear the similarity.
So it makes me wonder how muchof what we got came from what
you all were doing we weretaught by the same teachers yeah
, the same colonizers, rightyeah?
They had the same manuals rightbecause I bet everybody in here
got whooped growing up yeah.
Speaker 1 (46:23):
Absolutely yeah.
Speaker 5 (46:25):
Right, I have an alarming number of white friends
who have never been spanked.
Right, right, yeah.
Speaker 2 (46:30):
I'll sit to just kind of bring it back all the way
around when it comes tocorrecting our children.
I don't know what it's liketoday, because I haven't been in
Haiti Y'all going to laugh, butsince I left, Really yeah.
Speaker 7 (46:40):
I've been in Haiti since 1986.
Speaker 2 (46:43):
I've not been to Haiti.
Speaker 3 (46:44):
Well, first of all, you're not Haitian anymore.
I know you gave up that card along time ago.
Speaker 2 (46:49):
Dang bro.
So I was getting whooped inschool.
I went to a Catholic schoolwhere that was allowed.
Yeah, like the teachers, theyweren't abusive Somewhere.
It depends on the school, right.
So the school that I went tobecause there was some like some
dignitaries children's there,they would be real careful, like
you know.
It's like I'm not gonna beatthose kids because you know hell
I could disappear, you know.
(47:10):
So they knew who to mess with,right, um, and it wasn't bad.
But it was like stick your handout, yeah, and they had a big
piece of wood like them, two byfour from home depot and you're
gonna get that in your hand theruler in your hand
Speaker 1 (47:22):
the ruler it thicker.
Speaker 2 (47:23):
My boy was a lot thicker than the ruler man.
Speaker 1 (47:25):
Got it.
Speaker 2 (47:25):
He was this big piece of wood, and it was just like
smack, Yep, and there issomething called dicte.
What that is is he would.
The teacher would narratesomething and you'd have to
write it down.
He would walk around the room.
He would narrate an entirethree paragraphs.
That's French for dictationCorrect Right while I talk
Exactly, and while he waswriting it, I mean, I'm writing
(47:47):
it.
Speaker 7 (47:48):
You remember a lot.
Yeah, dude, I mean.
Speaker 2 (47:50):
I went to high school before.
Speaker 7 (47:52):
I came here.
Speaker 2 (47:52):
You know what I mean and then you hand that in and
then he'd correct it.
The next day.
He'd come back and look at howmany spelling errors you made.
Each spelling error is one ofthem.
Licks in your hand, bro I usedto return it with zero.
That's why like my spelling ison point, because there were
certain things that I I was likeI didn't want to get hit but it
proves to be effective.
Speaker 3 (48:11):
Huh, you're a great speller even the text.
Speaker 7 (48:14):
I was looking at this brother's text messages.
Speaker 5 (48:18):
I was like he is on point.
Speaker 2 (48:19):
Yeah, I won't.
I won't shortcut things, I willuse punctuation in my text you
know so right, just bringingthis all the way back around.
What do you think are some ofthe steps that we can take
forward from this point on,whether it be unify our people,
educate our people so theyunderstand, when they see a
haitian person, why they dealwith certain things, why things
are the way they are.
(48:39):
Because, again, even people whoare close to me, they'll still
ask the question like why is itthis way in Haiti?
I'm like, I get exasperated.
I'm like how do you not know?
I know, well, okay, let meexplain it to you, and then
they'll still come back and butcan't y'all do this, can't y'all
do that?
I'm like not without foreigninterference.
There's always this foreigninterference.
Speaker 1 (49:20):
So we're not free.
Well, I think, at baseline, wehave to educate ourselves, not
just on Haitians, but overall,right?
So it would be a lot to askfolks who are not of Haitian
descent to learn the history andunderstand it and not have
questions.
Right, there's always gonna bequestions.
And even to what's going onright now in Haiti, a lot many
of us don't understand it.
(49:41):
Right, we're from Haiti.
We don't know what's going on,right, because it's so deep from
you know the 50s, and then the30s, and then the early 1900s
and the 1800s.
You'd have to go all the wayback to really understand why we
are here, like why we are wherewe are now.
But I think, asAfrican-Indonesian people
collectively, we have to learn asense of togetherness, right,
(50:05):
unity, right, where weunderstand we have the same
story.
Right, we have the same history, and so when we can get to that
space, we can learn to see eachother.
As.
This is my brother, yeah, right, this is my sister.
Yes, this is me from adifferent country.
(50:26):
This is me from a differenthousehold, right?
How do we come together?
Right, I don't look at you as Idon't know.
I can't remember what the wordwas, stefan you said because
you're a little black Americanboy, the bums, the bums.
Speaker 5 (50:39):
The bums right.
I didn't know that I was like.
Speaker 2 (50:43):
you know what I'm saying it's the bums, the accent
makes them, they pronounce itthe bum, the bum, the bum, don't
play with the bum.
Speaker 5 (50:51):
I have a new wrinkle in my brain, right, I don't look
at you.
Speaker 1 (50:54):
You know, because you light skin or dark skin, that
we're different Because we gettreated the same way by the
European folks, right, yeah.
And so we have to understandthat and take away this, the
stereotypes, the classism, thecolorism, the discriminations
against each other, right, andreally say I am choosing, we
(51:17):
have to make that choice.
I'm choosing to learn myhistory and I'm choosing to
embrace who I am as an Africandescentan descent individual.
That's good, and that way Idon't have to pretend or think
that I'm better than somebodyfrom africa or from, you know, a
neighboring island country yeah, you don't know, man.
Speaker 2 (51:37):
Yeah, that's gonna wrap it up, man.
So what we do, at the end ofevery show we flip a coin and
then one of you guys will do animpression, an impression of
what an impression of you haveto do an impression, an
impression of what An impressionof you have to read the outro
notes in whoever's impression,whoever's voice you're doing,
you ready?
I gotta stop laughing.
Speaker 1 (51:57):
Oh no, we're supposed to laugh?
Speaker 2 (51:59):
We're definitely not going to be kind to you, I know
right.
Speaker 1 (52:02):
You're getting greeted.
Speaker 5 (52:03):
I need to stop laughing so I can read it.
I need to stop laughing so Ican read it.
Speaker 1 (52:06):
I need to stop laughing, so I can read it All
right so you ready?
Speaker 2 (52:09):
Yeah, all right, so go ahead.
Mark, you're doing an Indianaccent, is that right?
Yeah, all right, go for it bro.
Speaker 4 (52:20):
Please support us.
Let's go.
I love it.
Let's go.
I don't know if that's.
Indian or some kind of Arabicaccent?
Alright, here we go, I'm readyplease support us by following
the show.
Leave us a 5 star review onApple Podcast.
Thank you, I like it.
(52:44):
I like it.
Thank you so much for listening.
We'll catch you next week.
You, I like that.
I like that.
Thank you so much for listening.
We'll catch you next week whenwe share conversations
surrounding real issues we dealwith every day.
Speaker 1 (52:57):
Manhood Matters we out.
Speaker 3 (53:00):
I like it.
I like it.
I gotta give you a round ofapplause, listen.
Yes sir, I'm sorry, I don'tknow.
I gotta give you a round ofapplause, listen.
Yes, sir.
Speaker 1 (53:07):
I'm sorry.
Speaker 4 (53:11):
I was better than mine.
A podcast for all that.
I point at you.
So selling us the story of we are always against
ourselves.
No, we were taught to beagainst ourselves, right, we
were taught to see the nextblack person as an enemy, and so
I think you know again, like wehave to learn the history, we
have to understand it.
So we don't allow the storythat has been taught to us to
(00:20):
dictate how we see ourselves andhow we treat one another.
Speaker 2 (00:24):
So it starts with a larger global love and
appreciation for black people asa whole, understanding that we
are.
Do you know someone from Haiti?
A friend, a coworker, maybe?
Now did the American media getit right.
When you go out to lunch withyour friend, do they hang out in
a parking lot and eat trees?
(00:44):
Or maybe try to catch someone'spet?
Or do you worry about thisvoodoo spell they might cast on
you?
Now have you given any thoughtto why the colonizers paint the
first free black nation on earthas savages?
Not even a little bit.
There is obviously a cleardivide between Haiti and a lot
(01:06):
of other predominantly blacknations, but there shouldn't be.
This conversation aims toexplain why.
It's the history lesson youdidn't even know you needed, but
here it is.
As black people all over theglobe, there is so much more
that unites us.
I am joined for the first timeon the pod by Zole Murphy, first
(01:29):
generation American.
Stanley Jean and both myself,your host Stefan and this last
guest, mr Mark Monplaisir, wereborn in Haiti and had to learn
to navigate through the bullying, the shame, the stigma that
came with growing up Haitian inthe States.
You will learn so much fromthis episode.
(01:50):
Welcome to Manhood Matters.
Let's get to it.
Why don't we just go aroundintroducing ourselves real quick
(02:12):
?
Speaker 3 (02:13):
I'm Stanley.
Of course I'm a married guy,I'm a father, I have two girls.
I'm back in school trying to gointo the route of going into
medicine right now, so pray forme, it's a journey, but in the
next year or so I should.
Right now, so pray for me, it'sa journey, but, um, in the next
year or so I should be all goodthat's what's up.
Speaker 1 (02:30):
Uh well, my name is mark mplezier.
I am an author, organizationalpsychologist, also getting my
phd.
Yes, sir, right now alsotraining specialist health and
wellness coach you do it all.
Public speaker uh you can tellhe's comfortable with it right
right um, yeah, so really happyto be here, man, and then being
in atlanta from new york hangingout with these guys so yeah.
(02:54):
So I'm excited, man, I'mexcited, I'm excited for this
conversation.
Speaker 5 (02:56):
My man, my name is old murphy and I am a retired
atlanta police sergeant, nice,so recently retired.
I've been out of it forprobably about two years, coming
up on two years, and I foundmyself now in the film industry
just by accident, or luck oryeah, I'm not sure which was it
was meant to be it was meant tobe Synchronicity.
Speaker 6 (03:19):
Yes.
Speaker 5 (03:20):
And so everything fell into place.
My wife and I are both into itnow and learning just at light
speed, it seems like, so I'mgrateful for the privilege of
being here with you, brothers.
Speaker 2 (03:31):
Thank you.
Speaker 5 (03:31):
That's awesome man.
Speaker 2 (03:32):
The reason we wanted to have this conversation is
because I've lived through itand I continue to see it to
where there's a lot of prejudiceagainst Haitians.
Now I'm most expected when Isee it from whether it be
Americans or white peoplespecifically, but when I see it
from fellow Islanders, when Isee it from other black people,
then it's just like what are wedoing?
What's going on here?
(03:53):
And I remember veryspecifically like my first brush
with it.
You know, I get to school.
I know three words in English.
This girl, she looks at me, shegoes what are you?
So I was like, like I didn'tknow how to say what do you mean
?
So I just kept on shrugging myshoulder right?
like that's universal yeah I waslike she should understand that
, but I knew what she was sayingand she goes are you black, am
(04:15):
I black, right?
So there was another guy whounderstood, he's haitian, but he
was brought up here and tryingto translate I was like, no, no,
I understand what she's saying,right, but I don't understand
the question what do you mean?
I'm black, yeah, and then shegoes.
So she goes to him like is heblack or is he haitian?
So then I said I'm haitian,also black, right.
(04:37):
But I understand, obviously, asI matured, I get where she
totally could not connect thedots, right, and in her mind,
being black is a nationality,where in reality it's obviously
not, but in their mind it's likeno, no, no, black is a title
that we have asAfrican-Americans.
You're something else, butyou're not black, which
obviously makes zero sense,right?
(04:57):
We're all from African descent.
I like that term that you use.
You use the frame Africandescent.
Yeah, I didn't want to useblack or white, yeah, black or
African American, but it's allAfrican descent.
I once read something it saidthe only difference between a
Jamaican, haitian, all thesedifferent black countries is a
boat, where the boat drops youoff when the boat drops you off
right.
Speaker 3 (05:14):
My brother could have been on that boat, and he got
dropped off in Jamaica and Idropped off in Haiti, correct?
Speaker 2 (05:18):
Right, it's the same.
Growing up, there was so muchstigma which the media
propagated against Haitians towhere I grew up with a lot of
prejudice, even at the hand ofwhat should be my brothers.
So I dealt with it in highschool a lot.
Unfortunately for me, my accentwas too thick to hide the fact
that I was Haitian, becausethere were a lot of guys in my
(05:40):
school that would pretend theywere not Haitian.
Mark with a K, mark with a C isHait Haitian.
Speaker 6 (05:45):
Mark with a K, mark with a C is Haitian.
Speaker 4 (05:48):
Mark with a K is American.
He got away with it.
You know what I mean.
Speaker 2 (05:51):
I kind of got away with it with the name, because
they they would pronounce itAlexander instead of Alexandre
and they would say Stepheninstead of Stefan.
So I was like, oh man, that'snot American as hell you know,
steven alexanderso careful I was going ignorant
man, the first year that I washere, I went by steven alexander
for a whole year.
Then the next year anotherteacher mispronounced my name
(06:12):
and called me stefan.
I was like, oh, that's great,even better, that's closer,
right.
But now I'm stefan alexander,still mispronounced totally, and
I went by that all the waythrough high school, in fact all
four years.
It wasn't until after highschool that I started finding
myself and whatnot.
So we'll talk about each of ourexperiences individually and
just how tough they were, howbad they were and what today
(06:34):
looks like.
But when did you?
Speaker 1 (06:35):
come here, Mark.
So I was 17 when I came in 1999.
That's crazy.
Speaker 2 (06:41):
Bro, you have no accent, I mean I can hear it, it
but if I'm really payingattention, there'll be a word
here in this country like peopletell me I don't sound haitian
until I start speaking fastenough, they're like gotcha.
Speaker 5 (06:54):
I can hear it with each of you.
Yours is a bit difficult.
Speaker 2 (06:57):
He's born here, that's what people say, but I
could hear it I know it might bea way you speak, a certain way
you certain words, but there'sno words that you use.
Speaker 3 (07:07):
That's gonna give you up maybe not, but for me again,
I was born here, right, right Iwas only haitian at home.
Speaker 1 (07:17):
He was one of the lucky ones but the last thing
was gene you can't run away.
You were haitian.
Speaker 3 (07:26):
Haitian, yeah, it was cool staff is a little older
than me, so he experienceddiscrimination.
If I want, to call it if I wantto call it that, but for me it
was just like urban kid, theyknew, but it wasn't a big deal
because my building was like theun.
There was the jamaicans,dominicans, puerto ric, you know
, haitians, whatever.
So it was cool, but going toschool like we all did the same
(07:47):
things.
But then again I still knew Ididn't want to bring a Haitian
flag to school.
That wasn't going to work outBecause again, you want to fit
in, like I was telling Steph,saying you're Haitian is a
ticket right out of that group.
So it was like yo, that's whatit was.
Speaker 1 (08:13):
But when I it right out of that group so it was like
yo, that's what it was.
Speaker 2 (08:14):
But when I got to high school, it was like 1993,
94 fujis came out.
Speaker 4 (08:17):
I was cool by the time.
Speaker 2 (08:17):
Thank you, white man, right, thank you.
That is one thing we can saywhen he came out, he was so
proud of being haitian and hewas cool because he had the
music and everything else andeveryone started admitting they
were admitting all the dudesthat I knew in high school they
were were like oh, I'm Haitiantoo.
Oh, I'd run into them.
I'm like nigga, you try to jumpme with the.
Speaker 4 (08:29):
Jamaicans.
Speaker 1 (08:30):
You know you try to jump me Like when they came
after me, you were in that grouppretending you didn't speak a
word of Creole.
Speaker 2 (08:37):
I got a story for you , yeah, and and then here we are
, four years later he sees mebecause then I got into music,
right, so I'm playing, I'm in aband, I'm in music, and he comes
to the party and he's like,comes up to me, hey, we were in
high school together.
I'm like, yeah, I remember you.
What are you doing here?
He's like I'm Haitian, ohreally.
Speaker 1 (09:03):
Oh, you're Hait go.
Oh man, His mom showed upspeaking Creole Blew him up.
Speaker 4 (09:07):
Yeah, asking for him.
Speaker 1 (09:08):
They were like wait, you Haitian?
He was like uh, my parents are.
Speaker 2 (09:12):
My parents are.
That's the answer.
And I'm like, and I'm Haitianand I was like it's.
So is that bad to be Haitian,bro?
Like I didn't even know I wasblack until I came to america.
True, I thought I was justhaitian.
Yeah, so I started out bytalking about the distinction.
Right, but talk about that andexplain it to people, because I
(09:32):
didn't grow up with that complexof white.
People are superior, so I couldgive a shit about you being
white.
Speaker 1 (09:37):
I don't give a damn.
When I came here right thefirst time I experienced any
like racism, my dad and I we goton a bus.
We're going downtown Boston andthen this white lady was
sitting.
There was a sit empty seat nextto her and I went and sat down.
She looked at me in disgust andgot up.
So I looked at my dad.
I'm like what happened?
(09:58):
and my dad was like don't worryabout it, that's that's just
racism right, that's just howthey are, and that was my first
time like, wow, okay, well, I'mdifferent.
I don't know how far back youwant to take it to history,
right?
Yeah, if we look at, you know,when the you know desalines,
they, they fought the fringe.
Yeah, and we became independentin 1804, and after that there
was a division betweenlight-skinned folks in the south
(10:21):
and dark-skinned folk in thenorth, and so you, you had, you
know, alexandre Pétion,alexandre.
Speaker 7 (10:26):
Pétion, and then Henri Christophe.
Henri Christophe right.
Speaker 1 (10:28):
So Alexandre Pétion was in charge of the
light-skinned folks, right?
Speaker 2 (10:32):
In the South.
Right the mulattos, yeah, themulattos, exactly.
Speaker 1 (10:35):
And then you had this is.
Henri Christophe, this isChrist dead at that point.
Right and so so you had himbeing in charge of the black
little dark-skinned folks.
Right and so the division wasthe mulattoes had all the power,
and so post.
You know, america used tocontrol haiti 1915.
Speaker 2 (10:56):
Yeah, yeah, real quick when it comes to that.
So what happened?
This was a forced invasion.
Let's be clear on that right, sothe marines invaded, yeah, we
invite this mother so theybasically invaded haiti and said
it's almost like there was aslap in the face Like how dare
you be, this little free Negrocountry who beat the French?
So now that we are all messedup, we don't have the power
(11:17):
anymore, or whatever it was theysent the Marines down there and
invaded.
Haiti.
It was a cool?
Yep, it was, and it took overthe country for some 25 years
yeah, um, it wasn't that long,okay.
Speaker 1 (11:27):
Uh, so I think so like 1915 to 1934.
How long is that?
Almost 20 years 15 yeah okay,yeah, so.
so after that, haiti just was injust disarray, right, yeah, so
it wasn't necessarily aboutcolor.
It was more like okay, well, ifyou are in charge of all the
resources, if we're beingtreated as if we're peasants,
then we have to fight for more,so so that's a story.
(11:50):
Is that the dark-skinned folkswere hateful towards the
light-skinned folks?
Not quite what it was.
It was more like well, youtreat me as if I'm not haitian,
right, because I I don't French,because I don't have all the
resources, I don't have money,because it's almost like they
see light-skinned folks assuperior.
You have money, you have.
Speaker 4 (12:11):
Oh they have the means.
Speaker 1 (12:12):
You have beauty right .
Speaker 2 (12:14):
The standard of beauty you know light-skinned,
soft hair Like America.
Right.
Speaker 1 (12:18):
Exactly.
I mean it's all based onEuropean standards.
Correct, and so that created afight where, if we go forward
when Papa Doc was what, 1957 to1971,?
Right, I know my history, babyyou guys.
Speaker 2 (12:32):
Yeah, that's right, that history lets us know the
original Papa Doc.
Speaker 1 (12:37):
So Papa Doc was like the common Haitian he won the
vote based on the fact that hewas for everybody right, correct
, the people's president, foreverybody.
Speaker 2 (12:45):
Right, correct the people's president, exactly
right.
Speaker 1 (12:46):
Educated to, and then America was against it because
he created the army.
They couldn't just go inwhenever they wanted.
So when he died, his son tookover, baby Doc was 19.
Speaker 3 (12:57):
Disaster.
Speaker 1 (12:58):
Right Again in the 80s, the dark-skinned folks
revolted again.
They're like well, I'm stillbeing treated as if I'm nothing.
Speaker 2 (13:07):
I think it was like 1984.
, 1986.
, 86.
Okay.
And I know that exact datebecause that's when I had to
leave the country, there waschaos, so in.
February of 86, baby Doc wasexiled, yep, and a week later I
was on a plane.
Got it.
Wow, right, so yeah.
Speaker 3 (13:25):
So Right, so yeah, so the dark skinned folks, you
were among those who had statusSame with your chest.
Speaker 2 (13:27):
Life was good.
It really wasn't Okay.
Speaker 1 (13:32):
But if it even seemed like you had the means right,
you were in control.
Then they were against you.
But again, it wasn't because ofcolor, it was, more, like you,
of representation.
Speaker 2 (13:42):
That government that had fallen here, exactly Right.
Speaker 1 (13:45):
And so a lot.
So that created this divisionin Haiti and after that again we
went back to disarray.
The country was just in chaos.
Speaker 2 (13:54):
I think there's a big piece that really matters here
as well, mark, it's the factthat, at every step of the way,
there's always been foreigninterference.
Yes, the major powers havealways infiltrated the
government and placed theirpuppets in place, because if the
country is killing itself fromwithin, it's easy to dominate
(14:15):
from without.
Haiti's demise comes from twothings.
Number one it comes from thefact that Haitians are the first
black republic we dared tobecome free.
You have to understand that isan assault and a slap in the
face of white people.
We are right here in, basicallyin America's turf.
So you look at this big, great,giant nation and then there's a
(14:35):
little black Republic thatdared to defy.
Speaker 1 (14:39):
We get punished by everybody.
Speaker 2 (14:41):
Yeah, while they still have slavery, they still
had slavery for another 60 years.
In this country, we're a freeblack Republic.
We're telling black Americansif you can escape and come over
here, pull up, we got you.
We're here, and not only did wedo that 10 years after, I want
to say 1815, cause 1804, haitigets their independence.
1815, pétion.
He's named the father ofPan-Americanism.
(15:03):
If you guys know anything aboutSouth America and their history
and their independence, none ofthem were free.
So then there's a guy, simonBolivar.
So he's the main guy who freedall of the Americas.
He's lost his battle, so hegets on his ships with him and a
few soldiers and they escape,running for their lives.
They left South America.
(15:23):
He ends up in Haiti, notlooking for a way to go back,
looking for asylum, pidz, youknow, at the time he's like nah
man, we just fought the French,we just beat them.
So how about I give you ships,weapons, everything that you
need and go back out there?
Speaker 4 (15:36):
Go back out there and fight.
Speaker 2 (15:39):
So he replenished him , gave him strategies and
everything else, and he wentback out there freed his people.
He goes under one condition youcan't just free your country,
you have to go and free everyother country in South America,
Because all we wanted to do wasfight against the colonizers.
There's a bust and a statue ofhim both in Colombia and Ecuador
.
That's pretty dope.
Speaker 3 (15:59):
That's that red and blue fabric right Correct, on
all those flags, that's right.
Speaker 2 (16:05):
That's right.
That's right.
I say all that to saycolonizers are vexed and they
imposed embargoes on haiti.
We could not trade.
So then what good are yourresources now?
This is not the one youremember.
This is one from before.
This is we're talking like1800s.
Yeah, you could have all thecoffee and all the shit in the
world but we're not buying it.
We can't trade, we can't tradeso you're stuck, and then the
country started to cannibalizeitself, right.
Speaker 1 (16:26):
And we also had to pay friends a lot of money for
not being slaves.
Speaker 2 (16:30):
So we're dying from within, right.
And then friends comes back andsays, now that we kind of
regrouped, we're going to comeback and reinvade your country
and attack, basically go to warwith you.
Yeah, and attack, basically goto war with you, unless you pay
us some billions of dollarsbecause you took away our
resources and our property.
Which is you, a bunch of slaves?
(16:52):
You're our property and youhave to pay for your own freedom
.
So we paid, it Sounds aboutright.
Speaker 1 (16:57):
So we paid this debt of billions which Back then
we're talking about so it's like$500 million, which equates to
like $21 billion today.
Speaker 2 (17:07):
So they owe us that money.
As far as I'm concerned, theyowe us every last dime of that
money that we have to pay backto Haiti.
Today, agreed People askquestions about Haitians.
Why is there so much trouble inyour country?
Based on everything I just said, so there's that.
And then, anytime someone stepsup who would do something
positive, they get killed, theyget drowned In.
And then, anytime someone stepsup, who would do something
positive.
Speaker 3 (17:25):
they get killed.
They get drowned In some waysomehow, that's true.
Speaker 2 (17:27):
They get killed, and they get killed by foreign
governments who come in and dowhat they got to do, because you
shouldn't be what you are Right.
Speaker 1 (17:33):
I don't think we'll ever have true stabilization in
Haiti.
I don't think that's ever goingto happen.
Speaker 2 (17:39):
I don't know.
I'm more hopeful.
Yeah, I am too, but the realityis man.
It seems bleak from here I thinkit's going to come from outside
of the country.
Well, I don't mean from, like,foreigners.
I think it's going to come frompeople who are Haitians, who
are born outside of Haiti, whogo back to Haiti, because, even
if you look at social media likeyou, look at certain people
that are really willing to throwthemselves on the front line
(18:01):
and fight for Haiti.
These are born, raisedAmericans and whatnot, and
they're fighting for socialjustice.
That'd be the only kind ofpeople who'd go back with
financial support if they had it, but out of the ashes, I don't
see anyone rising from.
Haiti itself from within to dowhat they got to do.
Speaker 5 (18:19):
May I ask a question about that just?
Sitting back and listening.
What is the solution in youropinions?
What is the return route forHaiti to be able to recover from
years of just being punished?
For being free.
I like that you use that word.
Speaker 1 (18:34):
That's exactly what it is.
Speaker 2 (18:35):
Being punished for being free.
Speaker 1 (18:37):
We've gotten so far and even when we look at our
people, the mindset, the lack ofeducation, the hunger, lack of
jobs, we would need goodleadership.
I think that's one.
Having somebody who one wantsto see Haiti win, who cares
about the people and also whoknows how to manage resources
(18:59):
and not just hoard resources forthemselves right.
Having folks who care likedeeply care about the wellbeing
of Haitians right.
How can I help my people?
And not just want to be inpower.
We can have a good leadershipin power, right In position, but
if the Haitians don't feel goodabout it, we can get very
(19:21):
emotional.
Speaker 3 (19:22):
Oh, no, big time.
Speaker 1 (19:23):
Right, and part of that is because we don't have
resources.
A lot of folks are hungry,right, and when you have that,
it's easy.
It's easy to lose yourself andsay you know, we're going to
fight to get what we want, andwe do have that history.
But I think it will take ashift where Haitians understand
you know what, again, comingfrom a leader, it's not going to
(19:45):
happen overnight, it may nothappen in our generation, but
the goal is to get on the samepage, understand that Haiti can
change, can get better, but wehave to do it together, and I
will be your leader to guidethis process, but I can't do it
alone.
So if you can get Haitians tobe hopeful about change while
(20:06):
you're actually creatingtangible work, resources for
them to actually see the change,I think we can get there.
Speaker 2 (20:14):
Vernon Boyle was just being interviewed.
I don't know if you guys haveseen this interview With.
Speaker 7 (20:18):
Joey.
Speaker 2 (20:19):
Yeah, so he has a song with Joey Duet-Fill filet
which is the most popular songever, right now I know so, he
was being interviewed about it,but what he said about haitians,
um, I think, is something.
I think that before we'rehaitian, we're black folks,
right in my opinion I think,before we're haitian, we're
black we're africans exactlywe're africans and before that
(20:39):
we're human.
So it's like so to me, likehaitian just comes like way
later there's a certainunification among black people.
That has to happen.
Yeah, I think, all over theworld.
It needs to be a globalmovement.
Yes, um, so that when a foreignpower wants to again put their
foot on a little black country's, neck other people can be like,
well, no, no, you're not, we'renot doing that right.
(21:00):
And instead of joining the themedia and oh, look at heidi Hedy
, ha ha, you know and making funof it.
Or, like I said, like we grewup in the 80s and 90s, you know,
watching that stuff, it needsto be more of a unification.
But anyway, this is what hesaid.
Let me see if I can play it foryou guys.
Speaker 7 (21:15):
Now you bring Joé Dwelle Fillet out at your
concert in France.
What did that feel like for him?
This is a very big moment,right?
Because I feel like Haitianpeople don't get the
acknowledgement and the loveExactly which they should.
Speaker 6 (21:37):
They should probably get more love than everyone else
because they started therevolution.
That's right, so really weshould all be paying homage, be
very thankful we should all payhomage to them, and they still
suffer for it to this day.
That's right them.
And they still suffer for it tothis day.
That's right.
So, really, we should all rallybehind them to make sure that
those consequences that they saythey're being imposed on them
(22:00):
for being the leaders of therevolution don't fly.
That's right, because we're sopowerful and we're so many.
So why are we letting what'shappening in Haiti happen?
You know what I mean.
Why are we letting what'shappening in Congo happen?
That's right.
Speaker 2 (22:13):
Here you are.
You have a Nigerian who waslooking at it and seeing Haiti
as the leaders of the revolutionright, they started it.
I'm not saying it to be likeevery time someone sees me bow
down Walk with a Haitian flag.
Speaker 7 (22:27):
Respect buddy.
Speaker 2 (22:28):
How many times are you going to say thank you to?
Speaker 1 (22:29):
me.
Speaker 2 (22:32):
But at the very least stop shitting on them right,
right, right.
Because again, like at megrowing up in new york, I will
say I dealt with a lot of racismfrom long island we know yeah,
what does?
Speaker 3 (22:45):
that mean no, because long island is known.
Yeah, I mean so I was.
Speaker 2 (22:49):
I was on it, I was dealing with that stuff, but
when it happened, either it wentover my head or it was what it
was.
It was expected.
But when it came from ourpeople whether it was a Haitian
pretending not to be Haitian ora Jamaican attacking me, or a
Trini or some other dude or someHispanic kid, and all they need
to find out was you're HaitianI remember when they found out
(23:10):
Al Bishro was Haitian oh my God,I remember it being jacked up
man and all of the things thatthey said about Haitians during
that time.
You guys remember the 4H thing4H, what is that?
So, in fact, let me grab mine.
That's what I was talking aboutthe AIDS.
Speaker 1 (23:24):
Yes, it is, it is that.
Speaker 2 (23:33):
Oh, okay, four countries that were initially
okay accused of having createdaids, and that's where aids came
from.
Yeah, this is early 80s, rightearly 80s, and they're like aids
came from haiti and we're likewhat the fuck?
Speaker 7 (23:40):
we're a clean little organic country, bro.
Speaker 2 (23:41):
We got nothing to do with your labs and everything
that you got going on, but haitiwas accused of being one of
those things.
Yeah, to me this is crazy.
Speaker 3 (23:48):
This happened.
I was alive.
But a lot of this is brand newto me.
You were a baby.
Yeah, pretty much.
Speaker 4 (23:55):
Yeah, I mean.
Speaker 3 (23:56):
I was too.
Speaker 1 (23:57):
Yeah, what were you born 79.
I'm 43.
Okay.
Speaker 3 (24:00):
Yeah, two years 81?
.
Speaker 1 (24:02):
Yeah, what 82?
, 82?
Speaker 3 (24:04):
Yeah, so for me living here.
So America is a well-oiledmachine, right?
They narrate what they want tonarrate right.
So now, when it comes down toHaiti and what kind of
information they allow, it'smostly negative.
You know everyone.
We have to contribute a dollarfor these Haitian kids, this,
(24:26):
that and the other.
So we were never looked at assomething to be proud of, right?
Speaker 4 (24:29):
Correct that's number one.
Speaker 3 (24:33):
So I'm born here, i'mitian, I'm, I'm really
haitian.
Yeah, a hundred percent.
Yeah, I don't know half of whatyou said earlier, true, all I
know is in 1804 we were thefirst right.
All right, okay, big ups, butunderstanding how the external
forces plays of till today,still playing a role it, it does
something to us.
(24:53):
So now, if I didn't know, I'mpretty sure the african-american
or jamaican probably didn'tknow in school.
So it's not taught yeah, rightso if I'm not here to hear it, I
wouldn't know so.
Therefore, it's hard to say inschool you're haitian and be
proud of it, because there'snothing to be proud of according
to the story and the narrativeof America and CNN Because it's
(25:16):
on the news, as Haitians haveAIDS.
Speaker 6 (25:19):
Haitians created.
Speaker 2 (25:19):
AIDS.
Speaker 7 (25:20):
So how do I go to school?
Speaker 2 (25:21):
the next day.
I'm a 14, 15 year old kid who'salready got language.
You crust Dude.
Speaker 7 (25:27):
I'm messed up.
You're ashamed of yourself.
Speaker 2 (25:28):
I'm over there like yeah, you don't even want to
show up and also I'm not thisbig intimidating guy where,
because there's a couple ofHaitians men, you know them,
straight dudes with no shoes andshit.
Speaker 5 (25:41):
Maybe they go learn in school where we won.
When I say we black people, iny'all's case the Haitians like
where did we have a story wherewe did something amazing in
school and then that victory wascelebrated?
I don't even remember anythingin public school even close to
that.
No, no.
Speaker 2 (25:58):
It wasn't talked about.
Speaker 5 (26:00):
Even the stories of Harriet Tubman.
They didn't share with us thatshe was a spy and carried a gun.
We didn't know.
Speaker 1 (26:04):
That's the thing, that's the issue, right, and I
think there's a George Santayanawho said those who don't know
history are doomed to repeat it.
Speaker 3 (26:14):
And.
Speaker 1 (26:14):
I think that's one of our issues in the black, not
just Haitians.
Right In the black community,we don't know our history and we
end up treating each other theway the masses treated us
Exactly.
There you go.
You should sit right there.
You know what I'm saying.
Speaker 2 (26:28):
We treat them the way we were treated, because as
soon as we get the leg up, wethink, oh well exactly, we're
better, I mean look, yeah,racism at some point is
fabricated, is created, because,well, look, you're the poor
whites, but at least you're notblack, so you're better than
that's what they, what they usethem, right, exactly exactly so
the same thing, they look at allthe blacks and all the
americans like well, at leastyou're not haitian right, yeah,
(26:48):
I'm telling you, you just keepgoing.
Haitians look at each other andsay, well shit, at least I'm not
D'Arcyan right and it's all,and it goes, and it just yeah,
so I always say look, if we wereall exactly we all came from,
let's say, one giant continentwhere there was no break and we
all looked the same same heights, and we would still, as humans,
(27:09):
find a way to discriminateagainst somebody else to feel
superior by just being born intothis.
Speaker 1 (27:15):
Right, it used to be faint like last names.
Right, you know you're fromthis tribe, correct.
Right, then you have money.
Then you, you know you're royal.
Right, it always existed inAfrica.
I took this one course theAfrican.
I think it was theAfrican-American experience in
college.
It blew my mind.
We were taught to be the way weare today.
(27:36):
Right, white folks will tellyou, africans sold Africans to
white people they love sayingthat shit.
Speaker 3 (27:42):
That was not the case , so I didn't want to break up
the storyline, but that's notthe case.
That was not the case.
No, no, no.
Speaker 1 (27:50):
They went with guns and alcohol and threatened one
tribe.
If you don't give me access tothis, I'm going to let the other
tribe I'm going to give theother tribe guns to come destroy
you Right.
And so with that it's like well, I don't want you to annihilate
my tribe.
Then you know, I'm going tosell the other tribe to you,
right, and let you do what youneed to do you're under duress
(28:11):
again I don't want to say Idon't keep saying white folks,
but like european folks, right,that's what they did, right?
so selling us the story of weare always against ourselves, no
, we were taught to be againstourselves, right, we were taught
to see the next black person asan enemy.
And so I think you know again,like we have to learn the
(28:34):
history, we have to understandit.
So we don't allow the storythat has been perpetrated or
taught to us to dictate how, asa whole, understanding that we
are one and we are the same thatboat drops should not have man.
Speaker 2 (28:57):
Totally to this point .
This is years later.
It's like they've taught youcertain things, yeah, and then
you're still being mind fuckedfour centuries later right at
some point, you gotta go.
Okay, that's what the masterswanted me to hear, right, but I
have to realize.
I mean, think about the haitianrevolution itself.
Yeah, I always remind people,the haitian revolution was
started by a voodoo priest rightnamed bookman, where, was he
(29:19):
from?
Jamaica correct, yeah, right sohe was a slave from jamaica who
was sent to haiti?
and, you know, started thehaitian revolution in a way with
that very prominent voodooceremony.
But talk to a Jamaican aboutvoodoo.
Speaker 3 (29:35):
No, we don't do that shit and we know better Today we
know better.
Speaker 4 (29:40):
It's a cultural thing .
Speaker 2 (29:41):
But, here's the thing it's because of the stigma.
Why do you think voodoo's bad?
It's not.
It's exactly the same asCatholicism, except this one's
black.
It's exactly the same asCatholicism, except this one's
black Right.
But if you look at thehierarchy of angels and
archangels and saints and all ofthese different, I was raised
Catholic so I understand it andI look at the parallels with
(30:02):
voodoo, I'm like it's the samething, except one is black.
So what do you do if you're awhite person or you're a
colonizer?
Speaker 7 (30:10):
You demonize it.
Speaker 2 (30:11):
And then you say oh look, I'm going to make a movie
and show you Serpent and theRainbow Right.
Speaker 1 (30:14):
So you can see, oh, I remember that yeah.
Speaker 2 (30:16):
I'm going to go to school the next day.
Speaker 7 (30:18):
I was so scared I came out.
Speaker 2 (30:25):
I was like all this nonsense, man, You're seeing all
this crazy yes, you know, butmeanwhile there are videos all
over the internet showing whiteitalian people dancing with
haitian garb, with the whitesand the reds and everything else
, doing the doing, the rituals,the rituals, and they're just
seeing it as beautiful art andworship like new orleans.
Speaker 4 (30:44):
Yeah, exactly, go to new orleans, you know white
folks are like oh, this is, it'sgreat.
Speaker 2 (30:48):
Yeah, exactly but it is what I'm saying.
It's all about the educationman.
It's all about what we learn,what we know and what we accept
and what we question too,because a lot of people they
accept what it is.
I remember I was working.
I was at ups working.
I was much younger man and thenit was around christmas time
yeah and everyone's saying merrychristmas to each other and
(31:09):
leaving and he goes you hate,you celebrate Christmas and I
was like why wouldn't I?
So he goes.
Well, because I just figuredyou just do voodoo and that's it
.
Wow, I swear to God.
Speaker 3 (31:19):
He's just a product, though, right, right, you know
what I?
Speaker 2 (31:22):
mean.
So at that point I was oldenough to speak to him and
remind him that, went back tothat, that little piece of
history, and told him who thatguy is and I said he's who he is
because of my people and whatwe did to help you be where you
are right now talking to youabout voodoo, you dumb fuck.
Speaker 1 (31:39):
Yeah exactly, yeah.
Speaker 3 (31:41):
So if you don't know, man, yeah, if you don't know,
and it's hard to, actually, itis because who's going to teach,
right?
Speaker 5 (31:47):
do you see that there's a deficiency with us as
Southerners versus maybeNortherners in terms of the
black experience and beingsupportive to Haitians?
What?
Speaker 2 (31:57):
I've noticed is that the more educated people get it
Right, and the people who justlisten to the news and just
basically says, well, this iswhat the news is showing me.
You know, like there wassomething I think was like a
year ago, where there was thiswhite reporter who was on the
news and was like, well, youknow, they're in Haiti, they
can't eat, they can't find food.
Speaker 7 (32:15):
Yeah, and then she said what they're eating dirt,
they're eating dirt, they'reeating the trees she goes,
there's no more trees to eat thetrees and I was like.
Speaker 2 (32:22):
How is that even humanly possible?
Speaker 5 (32:24):
How is it Right?
I remember the clowning.
Speaker 2 (32:35):
Like no, it's not that bad.
Speaker 5 (32:37):
That's the only way you can respond to it.
Speaker 2 (32:38):
What do I have to do?
Really, we're eating trees.
Speaker 5 (32:40):
It's kind of like Trump did with the president of
Liberia.
Remember the other day he waslike oh, you speak English.
Speaker 2 (32:47):
Where'd you learn it?
It's the official language,right?
Speaker 3 (32:50):
You know I love Trump .
I'm going to tell you why.
Oh boy.
Speaker 7 (32:54):
I'm going to tell you why.
Speaker 3 (32:54):
Uh-oh.
Speaker 4 (32:55):
Uh-oh.
Speaker 3 (32:56):
No, hear me out, though.
The reason why is he's notscared to be a fool?
Yo, really, it's just like yo.
He just shows the ignorance youknow, that's there.
Speaker 2 (33:15):
He highlights it right, right.
Speaker 1 (33:16):
Yes, he really does totally totally, and just like
when he went to Puerto Ricoafter the tornado.
He was just like he asked forthat president, and they were
like sir, it's you right, right.
What I would say, though, toyour question?
I think you know a lot of folks, african descent folks, here
don't necessarily know who theyare.
Yeah, right, because you don'thave that foundation where you
can go back and say you knowwhat, what?
I'm from Haiti, I'm fromJamaica, I'm from Africa, right,
and so you look at yourself asAmericans, but you're not really
(33:37):
treated as Americans, and sothere is this cognitive
dissonance where I'm like, well,I'm not being treated as
American, but then I'm betterthan the black folks from the
Caribbean, right From the island.
Speaker 4 (33:47):
Right.
Speaker 1 (33:48):
And so I think we have again, like you were saying
, stefan, like we have to get toa space where we're like you
know what, even though I've beenhere, my ancestors are from
here, you know, from slavery,but we're still the same.
You're not different justbecause you're from Haiti or
Jamaica or wherever else, right?
So I think we had we have toget to a space where we can say
(34:10):
I am the same as you.
Yes, how can I support you?
How can we come together andmake sure that we have a
community that actually embraceall African descent people?
Speaker 5 (34:21):
I have noticed that, with people of Haitian descent,
you all have carry a muchdifferent level of confidence
with you when it comes down toyour interactions with white
folk.
It made me very aware that, asa 70s baby, I was taught, either
just through cultural cues orwhatnot, growing up, that there
(34:42):
was a way to act around whitefolks.
So meaning I became aware at anearly age that we were to cast
our eyes downward, for example,we were to make ourselves
smaller, don't be too loud,don't be too scary, and that was
the expectation.
Being a child of the South,have you all noticed a
difference?
Having not had that influenceof white folks to the same,
(35:05):
because I feel like it affectedmy confidence in being around
them, whereas y'all, out of therip and even as young men, were
far more confident than we were,having the influences of racism
and being expected to actcertain ways around white men.
Speaker 2 (35:19):
Big time.
So before I answer yourquestion, I know Mark wants to
jump in too.
You had to make yourself small.
How tall are you?
Speaker 3 (35:25):
Six five.
You're like 10 feet man Sixfive.
Speaker 5 (35:28):
but my kids told me I've lost a quarter inch.
Got it, got it, got it.
But that was the expectation,you know, to the extent that we
had to be smaller so that weweren't scary.
Speaker 1 (35:39):
You know that's a very interesting question.
Speaker 3 (35:42):
It really is.
Speaker 1 (35:43):
I love it actually yeah yeah, and here's the caveat
right.
As Haitians, we're actuallytaught the same thing, but when
it comes to adults, right.
Speaker 2 (35:53):
As children.
Speaker 1 (35:54):
You can't look adults in the eyes, right?
You can't talk back, right?
So there were a lot of thingsthat we were taught based on the
fact that we learned them fromslavery.
To go back to your question,black folks here, your, I don't
want to say your slavery endedlike 50 years ago.
Speaker 4 (36:09):
Right, exactly right.
Speaker 1 (36:11):
So, even when we talk about jim crow laws right, we
talk about segregation you stillhad to be protected, yeah, and
so your folks, your parents, hadto tell you you cannot confront
black, white folks as a way tofor you to be protected.
You can't go here because it'snot safe, right, because you
black, right.
(36:31):
So.
So it was a form of protectionfor you as Haitians.
That ended 200 years ago, right, right.
So a lot of us grew up withthat pride of blackness, right,
there's like we Haitians and wedidn't have that teaching where
we had to be told you can't lookat white folks because we
didn't have a lot of white folksin Haiti.
It be told you can't look atwhite folks because we didn't
(36:52):
have a lot of white folks inHaiti.
It was just like, well, we'reHaitians, right?
Yeah, so it's the teaching foryou because, again, you had to
be protected as a child andparents.
They were a lot of fears, likeI don't want you to go out and
not come home.
Speaker 2 (37:04):
That's exactly what I was going to say.
You know, I grew up in Haiti.
There was classism and again,keep in mind I just said earlier
, like humans will find a way todiscriminate against other
humans, no matter what.
So if it wasn't about how lightyour skin was, it was in my
family and the people I came uparound.
It was about a last name.
I would have friends that youknow.
Before they could come over andplay, they would ask who that
kid is, who their parents are.
My grandmother would determinewhether or not he can't come
(37:28):
over here.
If he's not, so-and-so, butthen I never.
What is it?
Five to six percent of whitesin Haiti.
So we're the majority.
And then there's a lot ofpeople who are mixed.
There's a lot of people fromthe Middle East, Syria and
places like that.
So we have a mixed culture, butit's predominantly black.
And it had to do with who youare, what you've accomplished,
also your level of education,and there, what you've
(37:49):
accomplished, also your level ofeducation.
There were times in Haiti whereI wasn't allowed to speak the
national language, our language.
At home.
I couldn't speak Creole.
You were bougie man.
Yeah, no, I didn't mean to sayyeah, I was happy to say yeah,
it's true.
Speaker 5 (38:02):
But I wasn't allowed.
Speaker 2 (38:05):
It was rude to my parents, To an Indian adult.
I could only speak French.
Speaker 3 (38:11):
So Creole was rude.
Yes, correct, wow, my language,my black language right, the
haitian language.
Speaker 2 (38:16):
It's because that's what my parents knew.
When my parents get together,my mother and father if one of
them could not speak french, itwould not be together, because
his education was up here, herswas up here and this they would
get together.
You would never find that mix.
Yeah, that was a badge of honor.
If he would try and talk to herand his French was messed up,
she'd be like no, you can't keepup, you can't even have a
(38:36):
conversation with me, so whywould I talk to you so?
then coming up.
I didn't speak Creole until Icame to the States, or unless I
was out in the streets with myfriends, and if I was out and
about we all.
Speaker 3 (38:53):
But that was it, and I gotta be real careful.
Who's hearing me?
You know so, even at home, youknow that.
At home, yeah, it actuallypermeates, you know, the
community stereotype and it justbreaks it apart still because.
Speaker 2 (38:59):
But again, I say all that to say that my sense of I
never, ever ever had a sense ofinferiority growing up in haiti.
So I come here and I run intowhite folks.
I don't think of you as youain't shit it doesn't matter to
me.
Speaker 3 (39:13):
It's funny.
You say that it sounds awesome.
Speaker 7 (39:15):
Yeah, I don't think of it.
Speaker 2 (39:17):
In fact, when I experienced racism the first two
or three times, I didn'trecognize it as such.
I could have been killed.
My first experience I'm walkingin the streets of Almonte, long
Island, and I'm carrying a bikebecause the wheel was broken.
So me and my friend who grew uphere terrified of white folks
because he's from Queens, andhe's walking in his Long Island
(39:38):
town with me and he's scared andhe tells me he's like man, I
don't like this man, I don'tlike this at all.
I'm like what are you talkingabout?
I live up the street, let's go.
And this guy gets out of the carand comes around hey, where do
you live?
Again, my English is so-so Iunderstood that.
I was like I live on Essex roadand he just keeps hounding us.
(40:00):
I thought he was lost.
I have zero fear.
I'm not understanding what'shappening.
My friends over here shaking.
I'm like I don't know what'shappening.
The guy's lost.
We need to give him directions.
So I said where do you want togo?
He's asking me where you don'tknow.
You looked at this, yeah, yeah.
So I'm like well, you needdirections.
Because I'm happy, because Iknow all these streets, because
you know I play out here.
So I'm like you know, this islocust wood, this is essex.
You know what?
What do you want to know?
(40:20):
And and he goes in his trunk,gets a bat.
Oh boy, I still don't knowwhat's going on, because I'm
maybe he's gonna help me fix thebike.
So I should know better, but Ididn't, because I did not
recognize that because I know Ididn't do anything to this
person he's an adult, I'm a kid.
Imagine me at 15.
I weigh 90 pounds, right, right, why would you?
(40:40):
I'm four feet four feet tall.
I weigh 90 pounds.
I'm not a threat to anyone, soI don't think that an adult
getting out of a car is a threatto me.
I'm not thinking that way.
Right, right, so it was anotherdude.
An older white guy who saw theinteraction stops his car, gets
out and he goes and pulls thisguy aside and tells him
something and the guy gets inhis car and leaves and he goes.
You boys can go home, yeahyou're about to kill a child
(41:02):
yeah, but there's times in myadult life, in my 40s, where
someone has been overtly racistthat I just thought they were
being an asshole.
I didn't think that you weredoing because I was black,
because I don't ever think thatfirst I go there second or third
.
Yeah, my first thought is oh,what a jerk.
I know.
Yeah same, yeah same for me.
And there's one thing, too,that we're guilty of, as haitian
(41:24):
people, big time guilty of.
Like I said before, we have ourown classism, right, it's who's
this kid?
You know, you don't play withthis kid because their last name
is so and so and it's like,yeah, no, that kid is beneath
you, right?
What are the shameful names?
The family, can we say it?
Can we talk about?
it no, no, so that's so.
That's a good question.
There's no such thing, butthere were names that were
(41:46):
associated with the people you'drun into in the capital.
Port-au-prince and there weresome names where we'd call these
people mountain folks.
What does that mean, mountainpeople?
We just call them mountainpeople.
They're from the hills.
Speaker 5 (41:57):
Country bumpkins.
Speaker 1 (42:00):
I'd be one of those.
Speaker 2 (42:01):
Okay, and even here, when I came here, I would hear
Haitians get into a scuffle andthey would insult each other and
I remember one person saying tothe other he goes.
The only reason I'm me and you,you and I are having a
discussion is because we're herein the United States.
Really, he goes in Haiti allthe time music.
Speaker 3 (42:18):
Yeah, exactly like when there's an argument.
That's exactly what that'stheir go-to you wouldn't even be
talking to me if I wasn't inAmerica playing in.
This is correct wow becauseoh'm the educated guy, I've got
the last name.
Speaker 7 (42:32):
I've got.
Speaker 2 (42:33):
But if we're in Haiti ?
No, your family works for myfamily, right as in, you clean
my house.
Speaker 5 (42:38):
That is such an ignorance.
Do they call it a caste there?
Do they acknowledge it as acasteism?
Speaker 3 (42:43):
It's known.
Speaker 1 (42:44):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (42:45):
It's just known.
So I used to go often everyyear, maybe two or three times a
year.
Yo guys, I apologize, I'm aboutto tell you a story.
No, go for it.
Speaker 1 (42:54):
Go for it, listen first time I went to Haiti, tell
me your white privilege story.
Well, almost Almost, almost.
Speaker 3 (43:02):
So first time I'm going to Haiti, you know they
had to figure something out, youknow to get me a passport.
And the first time I'm goingI'm like what?
17, 18, whatever?
Shout out to New York All Starsright, new York All Stars.
So the drummer couldn't go, sothey got me to replace or
whatever.
So I'm going to Haiti firsttime.
I didn't know if they hadfridges, I didn't know if they
(43:25):
had toilets.
I'm like maybe I got to go use.
Speaker 4 (43:28):
I didn't bring my own bag.
Speaker 3 (43:29):
They always used to tell me stories about people
going in the yard Get a latrineor whatever, maybe something
like that, I don't know, there'ssome truth to it, though.
I know I know, but it's not.
Speaker 2 (43:43):
You bumpkins.
Speaker 3 (43:44):
Yeah, I was fearful because I had this ignorance.
It was amazing.
So, sometimes I, I listen, Igive a pass, I give grace to
certain people we don't know,Right.
So I get to Haiti.
I'm just like yo.
They have toilets, the fridgeis dope, I didn't know.
I was able to order a burger,bro.
(44:05):
When I tell you my mind wasblown and fries, and I was at
Montana, I believe, or somethinglike that Dope-ass hotel.
When I tell you, I was blownaway and I came back and I was
trying to tell people, but it'shard to you know they think you
lying, Right.
Speaker 1 (44:20):
Right, yeah, because of the stories.
It's the same about Africa,africa is like the jungle.
Speaker 5 (44:27):
There's no electricity there, exactly.
Speaker 2 (44:31):
Even back to coming to America, you learn all that
shit fighting tigers and lies.
Speaker 6 (44:37):
Well, you learn all that.
Speaker 3 (44:38):
That's real.
It's true, man.
The ignorance is crazy.
No, it's real man.
Speaker 2 (44:44):
But what we're guilty of like big time is we carry
that prejudice right, inwhatever form, ourselves.
Because when I came here, thevery first thing my father told
me is don't you let me catch youplaying with none of these
little american bums, right, theblack americans who are beneath
the foreigners in their minds,so that, whether it be Haitians,
(45:05):
I know it's true in the Africancommunity as well.
I don't know if it's trueanywhere else, but I know the
Africans and again, it's olderignorance.
I don't know if it's reallyprevalent today, but there's a
lot of things that when ithappens in the black community
that the foreigners Haitians,africans will look at the black
Americans as if you're the causeof this, you, the black
Americans, as if you're thecause of this, you're the reason
they treat me that way.
I moved to Alpharetta andthere's prejudice because your
(45:27):
black ass came into theneighborhood and acted a fool.
So it's always to blame themand I always remind them.
I go.
You realize, the only reasonyou're here and you can live in
that neighborhood is because allof the black Americans who
fought for this because the itwasn't from Africa, right, it
was from the Dr Kings, it wasfrom the John Lewis's, it was
from all the people who did allthat to allow you to be here, so
(45:48):
be grateful, but initiallytheir first thought is no, these
people are different from usexample, you know when an adult
was in the room.
Speaker 5 (46:06):
You know children were to be seen and not heard.
Now, as a little boy, I didn'tlike that, but I was aware of it
.
You know what I mean.
But so I hear the similarity.
So it makes me wonder how muchof what we got came from what
you all were doing we weretaught by the same teachers yeah
, the same colonizers, rightyeah?
They had the same manuals rightbecause I bet everybody in here
got whooped growing up yeah.
Speaker 1 (46:23):
Absolutely yeah.
Speaker 5 (46:25):
Right, I have an alarming number of white friends
who have never been spanked.
Right, right, yeah.
Speaker 2 (46:30):
I'll sit to just kind of bring it back all the way
around when it comes tocorrecting our children.
I don't know what it's liketoday, because I haven't been in
Haiti Y'all going to laugh, butsince I left, Really yeah.
Speaker 7 (46:40):
I've been in Haiti since 1986.
Speaker 2 (46:43):
I've not been to Haiti.
Speaker 3 (46:44):
Well, first of all, you're not Haitian anymore.
I know you gave up that card along time ago.
Speaker 2 (46:49):
Dang bro.
So I was getting whooped inschool.
I went to a Catholic schoolwhere that was allowed.
Yeah, like the teachers, theyweren't abusive Somewhere.
It depends on the school, right.
So the school that I went tobecause there was some like some
dignitaries children's there,they would be real careful, like
you know.
It's like I'm not gonna beatthose kids because you know hell
I could disappear, you know.
(47:10):
So they knew who to mess with,right, um, and it wasn't bad.
But it was like stick your handout, yeah, and they had a big
piece of wood like them, two byfour from home depot and you're
gonna get that in your hand theruler in your hand
Speaker 1 (47:22):
the ruler it thicker.
Speaker 2 (47:23):
My boy was a lot thicker than the ruler man.
Speaker 1 (47:25):
Got it.
Speaker 2 (47:25):
He was this big piece of wood, and it was just like
smack, Yep, and there issomething called dicte.
What that is is he would.
The teacher would narratesomething and you'd have to
write it down.
He would walk around the room.
He would narrate an entirethree paragraphs.
That's French for dictationCorrect Right while I talk
Exactly, and while he waswriting it, I mean, I'm writing
(47:47):
it.
Speaker 7 (47:48):
You remember a lot.
Yeah, dude, I mean.
Speaker 2 (47:50):
I went to high school before.
Speaker 7 (47:52):
I came here.
Speaker 2 (47:52):
You know what I mean and then you hand that in and
then he'd correct it.
The next day.
He'd come back and look at howmany spelling errors you made.
Each spelling error is one ofthem.
Licks in your hand, bro I usedto return it with zero.
That's why like my spelling ison point, because there were
certain things that I I was likeI didn't want to get hit but it
proves to be effective.
Speaker 3 (48:11):
Huh, you're a great speller even the text.
Speaker 7 (48:14):
I was looking at this brother's text messages.
Speaker 5 (48:18):
I was like he is on point.
Speaker 2 (48:19):
Yeah, I won't.
I won't shortcut things, I willuse punctuation in my text you
know so right, just bringingthis all the way back around.
What do you think are some ofthe steps that we can take
forward from this point on,whether it be unify our people,
educate our people so theyunderstand, when they see a
haitian person, why they dealwith certain things, why things
are the way they are.
(48:39):
Because, again, even people whoare close to me, they'll still
ask the question like why is itthis way in Haiti?
I'm like, I get exasperated.
I'm like how do you not know?
I know, well, okay, let meexplain it to you, and then
they'll still come back and butcan't y'all do this, can't y'all
do that?
I'm like not without foreigninterference.
There's always this foreigninterference.
Speaker 1 (49:20):
So we're not free.
Well, I think, at baseline, wehave to educate ourselves, not
just on Haitians, but overall,right?
So it would be a lot to askfolks who are not of Haitian
descent to learn the history andunderstand it and not have
questions.
Right, there's always gonna bequestions.
And even to what's going onright now in Haiti, a lot many
of us don't understand it.
(49:41):
Right, we're from Haiti.
We don't know what's going on,right, because it's so deep from
you know the 50s, and then the30s, and then the early 1900s
and the 1800s.
You'd have to go all the wayback to really understand why we
are here, like why we are wherewe are now.
But I think, asAfrican-Indonesian people
collectively, we have to learn asense of togetherness, right,
(50:05):
unity, right, where weunderstand we have the same
story.
Right, we have the same history, and so when we can get to that
space, we can learn to see eachother.
As.
This is my brother, yeah, right, this is my sister.
Yes, this is me from adifferent country.
(50:26):
This is me from a differenthousehold, right?
How do we come together?
Right, I don't look at you as Idon't know.
I can't remember what the wordwas, stefan you said because
you're a little black Americanboy, the bums, the bums.
Speaker 5 (50:39):
The bums right.
I didn't know that I was like.
Speaker 2 (50:43):
you know what I'm saying it's the bums, the accent
makes them, they pronounce itthe bum, the bum, the bum, don't
play with the bum.
Speaker 5 (50:51):
I have a new wrinkle in my brain, right, I don't look
at you.
Speaker 1 (50:54):
You know, because you light skin or dark skin, that
we're different Because we gettreated the same way by the
European folks, right, yeah.
And so we have to understandthat and take away this, the
stereotypes, the classism, thecolorism, the discriminations
against each other, right, andreally say I am choosing, we
(51:17):
have to make that choice.
I'm choosing to learn myhistory and I'm choosing to
embrace who I am as an Africandescentan descent individual.
That's good, and that way Idon't have to pretend or think
that I'm better than somebodyfrom africa or from, you know, a
neighboring island country yeah, you don't know, man.
Speaker 2 (51:37):
Yeah, that's gonna wrap it up, man.
So what we do, at the end ofevery show we flip a coin and
then one of you guys will do animpression, an impression of
what an impression of you haveto do an impression, an
impression of what An impressionof you have to read the outro
notes in whoever's impression,whoever's voice you're doing,
you ready?
I gotta stop laughing.
Speaker 1 (51:57):
Oh no, we're supposed to laugh?
Speaker 2 (51:59):
We're definitely not going to be kind to you, I know
right.
Speaker 1 (52:02):
You're getting greeted.
Speaker 5 (52:03):
I need to stop laughing so I can read it.
I need to stop laughing so Ican read it.
Speaker 1 (52:06):
I need to stop laughing, so I can read it All
right so you ready?
Speaker 2 (52:09):
Yeah, all right, so go ahead.
Mark, you're doing an Indianaccent, is that right?
Yeah, all right, go for it bro.
Speaker 4 (52:20):
Please support us.
Let's go.
I love it.
Let's go.
I don't know if that's.
Indian or some kind of Arabicaccent?
Alright, here we go, I'm readyplease support us by following
the show.
Leave us a 5 star review onApple Podcast.
Thank you, I like it.
(52:44):
I like it.
Thank you so much for listening.
We'll catch you next week.
You, I like that.
I like that.
Thank you so much for listening.
We'll catch you next week whenwe share conversations
surrounding real issues we dealwith every day.
Speaker 1 (52:57):
Manhood Matters we out.
Speaker 3 (53:00):
I like it.
I like it.
I gotta give you a round ofapplause, listen.
Yes sir, I'm sorry, I don'tknow.
I gotta give you a round ofapplause, listen.
Yes, sir.
Speaker 1 (53:07):
I'm sorry.
Speaker 4 (53:11):
I was better than mine.
A podcast for all that.
I point at you.
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