November 3, 2023 • 29 mins
In this episode of the Mapping the Doctrine of Discovery podcast, hosts Phil Arnold and Sandy Bigtree interview Anthea Butler, The Geraldine R. Segal Professor in American Social Thought and Chair of Religious Studies at the University of Pennsylvania. They discuss the role of evangelical Christians in manipulating voting structures and policies, as well as the connection between evangelicalism and racism. Butler explains that evangelicals often use morality as a shield to impose their own beliefs on others rather than living by those beliefs themselves. She also discusses the evangelical desire to bring about the Kingdom of God on Earth and their opposition to government intervention. The conversation touches on the history of evangelicalism, the influence of whiteness, and the need to challenge dominant narratives through civic engagement and education.
View the transcript and show notes at podcast.doctrineofdiscovery.org. Learn more about the Doctrine of Discovery on our site DoctrineofDiscovery.org.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:07):
Hello and welcome to the Mapping the Doctrine of
Discovery podcast.
The producers of this podcastwould like to acknowledge with
respect the Onondaga NationFirekeepers of the Hood Nishoni,
the Indigenous Peoples on whoseancestral lands Syracuse
University now stands.
Now introducing your hosts,phil Arnold and Sandy Bigtree.
Speaker 2 (00:32):
Welcome back everyone to Mapping the Doctrine of
Discovery supported by HenryLuce Foundation and Syracuse
University.
I'm Phil Arnold.
I'm a faculty in the Departmentof Religion here and core
faculty in Native AmericanIndigenous Studies and the
founding director of theScannell Great Law Peace Center.
Speaker 3 (00:53):
And I'm Sandy Bigtree , a citizen of the Mohawk Nation
at Akka-Suzny, and I was on theplanning committee of the
Scannell Center and also on theboard of the Indigenous Values
Initiative.
Speaker 2 (01:04):
We're delighted today to be joined by Anthea Butler,
who is the Geraldine R SiegelProfessor in American Social
Thought and the Chair ofReligious Studies at the
University of Pennsylvania.
Professor Butler is the authorof White Evangelical Racism the
Politics of Morality in America,and we're delighted to have her
(01:28):
today.
Thanks for joining us.
Speaker 3 (01:33):
Yeah, I'm excited Really, being a Mohawk woman, of
course, not a stranger to theracist underlying structures of
Christianity in this country wewere hit in the early 17th
century hard by the Jesuitsinvasion.
(01:54):
But I really had a lot ofquestions about today and
wondering about evangelicalChristians and what role they
play in manipulating the votingstructures and policies that are
now being passed by Republicans.
And you lay that out sowonderfully in your short book.
(02:16):
I mean it's like 150 pages andit's so packed and everybody
really ought to get this book asit lays it out so clearly and
it's just wonderful to have youhere and I want to have you talk
about your work and try toexplain as well as you do these
(02:38):
underlings of where it's broughtus today, Like the morality
majority.
The moral majority, the moralmajority and how it was founded
and the connections made duringthe Reagan administration and
how that's been building sincewe came out of the 60s.
(02:59):
So yes, please.
Speaker 4 (03:03):
Well, I think for your listeners, what's important
to know about the book is thatit's a way to correct history in
a way, and not just to correcthistory, but to insert the parts
of history that evangelicalsdidn't want to say about
themselves.
If we think about just like youtalked about the Jesuits tearing
up the Mohawk nation, we needto think about how evangelicals
(03:25):
have done the same across thenation with different people
groups.
Whether we're talking aboutslavery or we're talking about
missions work, we're talkingabout education, we're talking
about the political system, allof these things have been
racialized by evangelicals, andI think what's important to know
about my book is that I'mbringing together two things
that we don't often talk abouttogether, which is racism and
(03:47):
morality, because morality, forevangelicals, is a shield, it's
the way for them to talk abouthow their Christian faith
influences what they do, exceptthat usually they are using that
morality as a shield and aprotection to protect themselves
from the way that they see thegovernment or life or changes in
(04:11):
civic engagement are affectingtheir kind of culture, and so
what they try to do is excuse me.
What they try to do is imposetheir own morality on others
rather than living by themselves, and I think that's an
important part of what I'mtrying to show in the book
through these differentexperiences from the 1800s to,
(04:33):
basically, the Trump era, andwhat I think is an important
takeaway from all of this isthat we need to begin to see
this as not just a religiousproject of theirs, but a
political project that they havewholly signed on to, and I
think that is key.
Speaker 3 (04:52):
If you could also go into a little more detail how,
as a whole, this movement reallywants to break down government
and how does that play intobeing an evangelical when you're
going out into the world andjust evangelizing the world?
Speaker 4 (05:11):
Yeah, well, exactly, they want to bring about the
kingdom of God, and so, for them, the kingdom of God has
evangelicals running it insteadof everybody else running it.
That's the first of all.
The kingdom is supposed to beon earth, and so I think that's
an important theological piecethat people have to remember is
that when they talk about thekingdom, or kingdom works and
(05:31):
all this, they're talking aboutruling and reigning in power on
earth, not in heaven, notsomeplace else.
So that's the first piece.
I think the second piece ofthis that's really important is
that you also have to thinkabout the ways in which
Republicans have talked aboutlimited government.
Okay, and that very muchdovetails with evangelical
belief and thought that they seethe government as imposing
(05:53):
their structure and that firstfor them, is always God, and
government is somewhere downnear the bottom.
It's God and family, and thenmaybe government, but limited in
their actions as possible, andso their idea of government is
somebody that is trying toimpose something on you, right?
No-transcript irony of it is isthat they are the ones who are
(06:14):
imposing their will on us,whether that's about abortion,
same-sex marriage, trans rights,racism, what you can teach in
schools and you know takingbooks off the shelves.
All of these kinds of thingsare really important about
thinking about what they arereally doing, as opposed to what
they are saying aboutthemselves.
Speaker 3 (06:34):
And what they're saying about themselves.
What I understand is that Godworks through them.
As evangelicals, they are notin charge of the world and they
have to be obedient participantsin this structure of
Christianity, and yet they'rejoining with the Republicans in
government in enacting.
Speaker 4 (06:55):
you know voting systems and you know laws, so
it's exactly yeah it's, it's,it's double talk and double
speak at every moment withevangelicals, and if you don't
understand that, then you mightget very confused trying to
follow all their machinations.
(07:15):
But I think this is a reallyimportant part of what they're
doing and one sense they'resaying this out loud to people
to say oh we, you know, we justwant what God wants, right, but
in reality it's what they wantin order to control the
narrative, to control schools,to control, you know, other
parts of civic society.
Speaker 2 (07:35):
I think so much of what you're saying resonates
with 15th century Christianity,you know, and how that justified
the whole age of discovery, youknow, which really begins with.
You know, a number of papaldocuments that that justify in
the enslavement of Africans, youknow, through the Canary
(07:57):
Islands and whatnot.
And then and then the taking oflands of all non-Christian
people right, they were, theywere, their project was really
about Christendom, you know,creating the kingdom of God on
earth, which in many waysresonates with what I'm hearing
about the evangelicals.
Was that right?
Speaker 4 (08:17):
No, exactly, and I think you know the, the how
should I put it?
The game has changed, but theplan remains the same, and so,
in other words, if you can thinkabout all of these people that
you are trying to makesubservient to your willing, to
your beliefs as heathens, andthat you have the right to do
(08:37):
whatever you want to do withthem because they don't believe
as you do and they are heathens,then this is how we see the
kinds of things that we'reseeing today, with the kinds of
you know abuses, the cuttingback of people's rights, you
know.
So those are the things that Ithink really resonate from the
doctrine of discovery forward tothe 21st century.
Speaker 3 (09:00):
This brings to mind a documentary that was done on a
movement that was started withBilly Graham in the 70s and
there's a documentary out calledAwakened and he had a gathering
of evangelical Indians who hepretends will be the saviors of
Christianity as they move outinto the world, so among the
(09:22):
least of us shall.
Shall now lead us to thekingdom of God, and it's just so
mind-boggling.
Speaker 2 (09:29):
It's been very successful.
You might add too, you know,among indigenous peoples.
Speaker 3 (09:33):
Yeah, we're talking about completely opposing
orientations of how we live ashuman beings in the world.
When the Jesuits came intoMohawk territory or any
indigenous community in thenortheast, they were first hit.
They came in within a handfulof years and right away renamed
the people.
They forced them intoChristianity and restructured
(09:57):
the matrilineal family into apatriarchy.
And that started within, youknow, years, months of first
contact, so that familystructure was part of the model
for conquest, an effective wayof conquering masses of people
and cultures.
And so you know you're talkingabout the power of the family
(10:20):
among evangelicals.
Well, that's nothing new.
Speaker 4 (10:23):
No, it's not no, but I think what my book shows is
that you can see this, you knowobsession with the family, even
in the 19th century goingforward, that's a little bit
later than you know whathappened with the Mohawk.
It's still there, right, andstill the control of the family
means you get to control that.
But I think even a moreimportant point you know, for
when we're talking about, youknow, mohawk or any other
(10:45):
indigenous group of people isthat whiteness is the
overarching game game, right,whiteness and Christianity.
And so part of this is aboutChristianity representing a kind
of cultural whiteness that hasto be imposed upon groups so
that you know your way ofthinking about your cosmology,
how you marry, how you bury, howyou teach your children, the
(11:09):
kinds of rituals that you haveas Native American groups.
Those things were wiped out andthis is the same thing that
happens and I talk about this inmy book in the 20th and 21st
century way, by talking aboutthe issue of color blindness and
how color blindness is the wayin which, you know, people say,
well, I don't see color.
It means that they don't seeanything but white and they like
(11:31):
the cultural aspects ofwhiteness.
You know whether that's aboutsinging or, you know, worship or
any of those other kinds ofthings, and that cultural
whiteness is the norm.
That is the norm that you mustaccede to in order to belong to
these groups.
Speaker 1 (11:44):
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And now back to theconversation.
Speaker 3 (12:04):
You'd mentioned in, I think it was the 70s, where the
church white churches werebeing opened up to African
American congregates and thatthey would come to church on
Sunday, but no one was everinvited afterwards to come home
and have dinner and have heavyconversations.
Speaker 4 (12:24):
Yeah, yeah, you're not invited to Bible study.
You might disagree with howthey read the Bible, right.
Speaker 2 (12:31):
Right, right, you know, you know, just to just to
kind of backtrack a little bit,if you could for our listeners,
just kind of go through brieflythe history of the evangelical
movement, because I mean we'reglumping together a lot of you
(12:52):
know Christian movements in theUnited States and beyond, but
the evangelical movement startsas kind of a lesser version of
Christianity, you know tentrevivals or something like that,
and then kind of you know, youknow generates into you know
(13:12):
university campuses and allthese other kinds of things.
And so I think you know you'redistinguishing in the book
between mainline Christianityand then evangelical
Christianity, which is sometimesreferred to as
non-denominational.
Speaker 4 (13:27):
I think that's right.
Yes, yeah, that's where it getsmessy.
Speaker 2 (13:32):
So if you can kind of like, so let me give you a
streamlined version.
Speaker 4 (13:35):
First of all, I have to tell you that they would not
like to think of themselves aslesser, so that's very important
.
So that is very important.
You know, never say that to theevangelical because they'll go.
We're the reason why you gotMartin Luther.
We are the different kinds ofthings, and if we think about
the first great awakening with,you know, jonathan Edwards and
(13:57):
others, to the second greatawakening and Cain Ridge Revival
and Revivalism and the rise ofevangelicalism in the 19th
century, this becomes important.
So if you want to think aboutwhat evangelicals are, let me
give you an example for peoplewho are listening, how that
might work out for you.
Southern Baptists areevangelicals.
You could talk about Christianreform churches as evangelicals.
You know these aredenominations, but they're not
(14:19):
mainline in the sense that we'retalking about Methodist
Presbyterians.
We're talking about groups thathave a particular orientation
to evangelicalism and to the wayin which they evangelize.
Okay, one person that peopledon't think about a lot and
thinking about in terms ofevangelicalism is Charles Finney
, the great revivalist, who cameup with the idea of the anxious
(14:39):
bench, and so that happenedright around Syracuse University
in Rochester, new York.
That was the first place thatthe anxious bench happened right
, and so that mode of confessingyourself and confessing your
faith in Jesus Christ became animportant part of services.
And so in the 19th century,which you can, you know, sort of
think about in terms ofevangelicalism is you could
(15:02):
think about pro-slaverymovements, you can think about
anti-slavery movements, you canthink about missions and revival
.
You can also think aboutviolence, because lots of
evangelicals were involved inthe Civil War on both sides.
Okay, so that makes itimportant.
I think what's also importantto talk about for evangelicals
and they don't like it very muchis to talk about what I
(15:23):
discussed in my book the LostCause, the Confederacy and
lynching and all of those kindsof things that are happening
post-Civil War that influencenot just, you know, civil
society but religion and racism.
Right.
And in the 20th century we canstart to think about the ways in
which evangelicals start, youknow, religious schools or they
(15:45):
break apart from schools.
Let's think about, you know,princeton versus Westminster
Theological Seminary and theseminary I went to, fuller
Seminary, which is the home ofneo-evangelicalism, or that new
evangelicalism in the 1940s.
Okay, but I think you know ifyou really wanted to place
evangelicalism in a certainpoint, that is an understandable
(16:07):
point for people who are nothistorians and not, you know,
religious studies scholars.
You look at the figure of BillyGraham.
Billy Graham was an evangelist,traveled all over the world,
was very instrumental in havinglots of different revivals and
places all around the world, andnot only that, was very
instrumental in bringingtogether something very
(16:28):
important, which is Presidentswith this evangelical leadership
.
And that is really key becausethat is the moment in which we
take that churn to religion andpolitics right.
It's not that religion andpolitics didn't exist before.
It's like evangelicals did this,and Billy Graham in particular,
in part to inscribe this kindof nationalistic Christianity.
(16:53):
And that nationalisticChristianity has come forward up
until today, where we seepeople who were attacking the
Capitol on 1-6, because theybelieve that the election had
been stolen and that it shouldbe given to this figure of
Donald Trump.
And I think that what peopleneed to understand about this
history and I'm not going to gointo it because this is a
(17:14):
podcast, we can't get everywhere, right, but I want you to read
the book is that what I'mtracing in that book is the
history of racial prescriptionand how evangelicals have been
racist the entire time andpretended not to be, first of
all, and, secondarily, how theirown theology helps them to
(17:35):
continue upon this path ofracism and nationalism and
whiteness.
Speaker 2 (17:41):
And it's really interesting the way you're
deploying whiteness too in thisbook, I think, because it's not
just white people, right.
It's a kind of mythic framingor a kind of framework,
sociological framework in someway right, that it doesn't
(18:02):
adhere to, like Native Americansor African Americans or
whomever.
It's difficult to get at right.
The racism that you're tryingto introduce us to and to
articulate in the book, I think,is a little more complex than
(18:23):
people are normally at to thinkabout, right.
Speaker 4 (18:26):
Yes, that's correct.
It's complex in this sense, andforgive me for putting it like
this, but there was a woman whojust recently read my book, and
she read chapter one, and she'shad this incident that I talk
about between an AfricanAmerican Christian singer and a
pastor and a business leader Iwon't give it all away and she
said I don't understand why thisword blessing is bad.
(18:49):
And I'm like well, you can'tsee this because of your
whiteness.
And this is where, even thoughyou're reading my book, I'm
having to explain this to you sothat you understand how much
whiteness has blinded you.
And so I think it was reallyimportant for her to understand
what was actually happening,first of all, and then,
secondarily, to also grasp thefact that well meaning white
(19:14):
people too, can be engaged withthis concept of whiteness that
drags us all into this kind of,you know, morass of not seeing
people as they really are, firstof all, and then, secondarily,
trying to make them fit intospaces that they should not fit
into.
Speaker 2 (19:28):
Right, yeah, right.
And I mean you know whitenessis a creation, in many ways, of
you know the colonial moment,you know coming into territories
that aren't yours, justifyingthat occupation, enslaving
indigenous Africans.
You know these tactics ofcreating a society based on race
(19:54):
, based on whiteness.
Then, you know, is deployedvery specific reasons, right,
and I think we're stillgrappling with that kind of
legacy.
Speaker 4 (20:07):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (20:07):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (20:08):
Yeah, we are.
I mean, I think what's alsoimportant too is if you think
about, you know, the doctrine ofdiscovery alongside this age of
discovery right, and how peopleare doing this.
Well, the next thing thathappens, obviously, is the
enlightenment, and that's whereyou start to see the beginnings
of, you know, racialphilosophies and things like
that, with people who are, youknow, looking at this through
(20:32):
the lens of a Protestant lens inEurope, okay, and also through
Catholic lens at some point.
So I think you know, if wethink about somebody like Votar,
who talks about the noble,savage right and imagines, you
know, the Native American to bea certain kind of person, or we
think about Kant and others, Ithink that's really important
for people to understand thatgenealogy and how that happens,
(20:54):
okay.
So one good thing I wouldsuggest for readers there's an
old book by Cornell West,prophecy Deliverance, and in
that there's a chapter in thatit talks about the genealogy of
modern racism, and I always findthat very helpful for people to
understand if they're trying tofigure out how the doctrine of
discovery pairs up with the waysin which you think about racism
(21:16):
and how we got to this point,then you can start to see these
Enlightenment thinkers and howthey put this together and how
those thoughts, how thoseintellectual constructions of
race become part and parcel ofwhat begins to happen in the
American context with slaveryand other things.
Wow, fantastic.
Speaker 3 (21:34):
In the early 17th century there were Wyandotte
borders who went over to Europevery early in the 17th century.
This is after it was recordedthat the Wyandotte had been
exterminated and yet they'restill traveling around the world
as Wyandotte and they'reoffering knowledge and their
(21:57):
observations of Europe.
And it's before the cusp of theEnlightenment.
They're like saying you peoplespeak of liberty and equality,
but you're only equal under themonarchs or the pope.
You don't know what livingfreely is about.
So their eye is on the Americasand coming in and taking the
(22:21):
resources on this continent.
It wasn't that any of theIndigenous people were unaware
of what they were up to or whothey were.
They were very much aware andgave them much more thought than
Europeans are really giving theIndigenous people that lived in
Africa or in the Americas.
So it's like a reversal ofobservations and it's really so
(22:45):
sad and painful to think throughthis manipulation to get at the
resources.
Speaker 2 (22:52):
Yeah, I mean in the recent books, for example the
Dawn of Everything, they mapthis early 18th century
influence of Wyandotte 17thcentury.
No 1600.
1600.
Oh wow, okay, so they map thisearly influence or conversations
(23:17):
really between Jesuits andthese Native American orators
right and how.
For example, where?
Speaker 3 (23:26):
did the French For the early 1700s.
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (23:33):
So how did the French come up with ideas of equality
and fraternity and democracy?
Well, not through Christianity,right?
So I mean, I think that's whatyou're getting at here.
You know is that these areanti-democratic principles that
have been drawn out ofChristianity and certain reading
(23:55):
of the Bible, and, you know,they resonate again with what's
going on in this early period.
So we have these kind of what,these forces that are at odds
with one another in some way,democracy and, but you know, the
(24:16):
kingdom of God, I guess, right.
Speaker 4 (24:18):
Yeah, yeah, that's exactly right yeah.
Speaker 3 (24:23):
I mean the earth is a democracy.
Speaker 2 (24:25):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (24:26):
And it doesn't exist if all the elements that live on
this planet did not live andfulfill the responsibilities of
providing each other, in thisnetwork of life, with food.
And you know, it's ouridentities and diversity comes
from the original relationshipswe had with the natural world.
That's what created a diversehumanity.
(24:48):
Yeah, so you know, as theHaudenosaunee say, peace cannot
exist unless you're in properrelationship with the natural
world.
We cannot know ourselves unlesswe connect with the earth that
provides us our sustenance.
Speaker 2 (25:02):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (25:02):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (25:03):
There's a kind of radical democratic principle.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, we're goingto be so happy to be able to
welcome you into Onondaga Nationterritory.
I know you for some of yourcareer anyway.
You were up here and inRochester and you know some of
(25:27):
this.
But you know, what we try to doat the Scano Center is
introduce people to theinfluence of the Haudenosaunee,
for example on Americandemocracy or the women's
movement, as a way to kind ofbut challenge the dominant
narratives, I guess right.
So the question, I guess it'snot so much in your book, but
(25:49):
I'm wondering how do we makechange when these dominant
narratives are so, you know,intractable in our world?
I mean, you know we're tryingto change or decolonize the
narrative in some ways, you know, and I wonder, from your point
of view, how do we start tochallenge those dominant
(26:13):
narratives of whiteness and, youknow, transform what is a very
bad situation now?
Speaker 4 (26:21):
I think part of the way is to engage civically, and
what I mean by that is to beinvolved, not just in having
discussions, but to actuallydoing things.
I've said this to people beforeand they always look at me as
scant when I say voting is notenough, and what I mean by that
is you can go and pull the lever, but if you're not involved in
(26:42):
your local community wherethey're doing, you know things
at the school board or you knowcity hall, all of these kinds of
things you know.
Changing historical signage isactually really important.
Okay, that's key.
So you need to be involved withpreservation societies.
You have to be involved incertain kinds of ways where you
can see things begin to change.
This is how you change thenarrative.
(27:03):
Let me give you an example.
I have a chapter in the 1619book.
The 1619 project was welcomedand received by so many people
because it offered somethingdifferent to the narrative that
has been said about America.
Right, but what did immediatelyhappen?
Donald Trump and others decidedto come up with the 1776
(27:24):
project, which kind of died onthe vine, and 1619 is gonna last
much longer than that.
But there's always gonna bethis competing thing and I think
one of the things we have to dois to make sure more of this
history gets out like whatyou're doing with talking about
the doctrine of discovery.
You have to educate people, butyou have to educate people in
terms that they understand.
It can't just be this academicenterprise that we hold it to
(27:47):
ourselves, but we also have tofigure out how do we bring
knowledge to the public, how dowe help the public engage so
that when they start to seethese bad history books by David
Barton about, you know Americawas a Christian nation.
You know this is the hardestthing to uproot, for people is
to realize look, those guys whocame here Ben Franklin, thomas
(28:08):
Jefferson, all the rest of themnone of them wanted Christianity
.
They just wanted it to be likeit was.
It doesn't mean they wereperfect, it just means that even
they didn't want the impositionof Christianity from the
English.
Okay, so they wanted this to bea place where they could be.
You know, people could worshipas they wanted to.
Unfortunately, it didn't turnout that way and unfortunately
(28:30):
their behavior at times didn'tadvance that belief that they
wrote about.
But I think it's reallyimportant to point people back
to what's the what's this realhistory of America, how does
this happen?
And that we can't just say thatthis was an empty, barren land
and not recognize that therewere tribes and nations here
before anybody, any white person, got here.
Speaker 2 (28:50):
Right, right, at least that, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Well, thank you, antia Butler.
This has been a tremendousconversation.
We really enjoyed it.
Speaker 3 (29:04):
And everybody get Antia's book.
It's like 150 pages.
You fit so much in there.
I have to reiterate that againWhite evangelical racism, the
politics of morality in America.
Speaker 1 (29:20):
The producers of this podcast were Adam D J Brett and
Jordan Lawn Cologne.
Our intro in outro is socialdancing music by Oris Edwards
and Regis Cook.
This podcast is funded incollaboration with the Henry
Luce Foundation, SyracuseUniversity and Hendricks Chapel
and the Indigenous ValuesInitiative.
If you liked this episode,please check out our website and
(29:42):
make sure to subscribe.
Hello and welcome to the Mapping the Doctrine of
Discovery podcast.
The producers of this podcastwould like to acknowledge with
respect the Onondaga NationFirekeepers of the Hood Nishoni,
the Indigenous Peoples on whoseancestral lands Syracuse
University now stands.
Now introducing your hosts,phil Arnold and Sandy Bigtree.
Speaker 2 (00:32):
Welcome back everyone to Mapping the Doctrine of
Discovery supported by HenryLuce Foundation and Syracuse
University.
I'm Phil Arnold.
I'm a faculty in the Departmentof Religion here and core
faculty in Native AmericanIndigenous Studies and the
founding director of theScannell Great Law Peace Center.
Speaker 3 (00:53):
And I'm Sandy Bigtree , a citizen of the Mohawk Nation
at Akka-Suzny, and I was on theplanning committee of the
Scannell Center and also on theboard of the Indigenous Values
Initiative.
Speaker 2 (01:04):
We're delighted today to be joined by Anthea Butler,
who is the Geraldine R SiegelProfessor in American Social
Thought and the Chair ofReligious Studies at the
University of Pennsylvania.
Professor Butler is the authorof White Evangelical Racism the
Politics of Morality in America,and we're delighted to have her
(01:28):
today.
Thanks for joining us.
Speaker 3 (01:33):
Yeah, I'm excited Really, being a Mohawk woman, of
course, not a stranger to theracist underlying structures of
Christianity in this country wewere hit in the early 17th
century hard by the Jesuitsinvasion.
(01:54):
But I really had a lot ofquestions about today and
wondering about evangelicalChristians and what role they
play in manipulating the votingstructures and policies that are
now being passed by Republicans.
And you lay that out sowonderfully in your short book.
(02:16):
I mean it's like 150 pages andit's so packed and everybody
really ought to get this book asit lays it out so clearly and
it's just wonderful to have youhere and I want to have you talk
about your work and try toexplain as well as you do these
(02:38):
underlings of where it's broughtus today, Like the morality
majority.
The moral majority, the moralmajority and how it was founded
and the connections made duringthe Reagan administration and
how that's been building sincewe came out of the 60s.
(02:59):
So yes, please.
Speaker 4 (03:03):
Well, I think for your listeners, what's important
to know about the book is thatit's a way to correct history in
a way, and not just to correcthistory, but to insert the parts
of history that evangelicalsdidn't want to say about
themselves.
If we think about just like youtalked about the Jesuits tearing
up the Mohawk nation, we needto think about how evangelicals
(03:25):
have done the same across thenation with different people
groups.
Whether we're talking aboutslavery or we're talking about
missions work, we're talkingabout education, we're talking
about the political system, allof these things have been
racialized by evangelicals, andI think what's important to know
about my book is that I'mbringing together two things
that we don't often talk abouttogether, which is racism and
(03:47):
morality, because morality, forevangelicals, is a shield, it's
the way for them to talk abouthow their Christian faith
influences what they do, exceptthat usually they are using that
morality as a shield and aprotection to protect themselves
from the way that they see thegovernment or life or changes in
(04:11):
civic engagement are affectingtheir kind of culture, and so
what they try to do is excuse me.
What they try to do is imposetheir own morality on others
rather than living by themselves, and I think that's an
important part of what I'mtrying to show in the book
through these differentexperiences from the 1800s to,
(04:33):
basically, the Trump era, andwhat I think is an important
takeaway from all of this isthat we need to begin to see
this as not just a religiousproject of theirs, but a
political project that they havewholly signed on to, and I
think that is key.
Speaker 3 (04:52):
If you could also go into a little more detail how,
as a whole, this movement reallywants to break down government
and how does that play intobeing an evangelical when you're
going out into the world andjust evangelizing the world?
Speaker 4 (05:11):
Yeah, well, exactly, they want to bring about the
kingdom of God, and so, for them, the kingdom of God has
evangelicals running it insteadof everybody else running it.
That's the first of all.
The kingdom is supposed to beon earth, and so I think that's
an important theological piecethat people have to remember is
that when they talk about thekingdom, or kingdom works and
(05:31):
all this, they're talking aboutruling and reigning in power on
earth, not in heaven, notsomeplace else.
So that's the first piece.
I think the second piece ofthis that's really important is
that you also have to thinkabout the ways in which
Republicans have talked aboutlimited government.
Okay, and that very muchdovetails with evangelical
belief and thought that they seethe government as imposing
(05:53):
their structure and that firstfor them, is always God, and
government is somewhere downnear the bottom.
It's God and family, and thenmaybe government, but limited in
their actions as possible, andso their idea of government is
somebody that is trying toimpose something on you, right?
No-transcript irony of it is isthat they are the ones who are
(06:14):
imposing their will on us,whether that's about abortion,
same-sex marriage, trans rights,racism, what you can teach in
schools and you know takingbooks off the shelves.
All of these kinds of thingsare really important about
thinking about what they arereally doing, as opposed to what
they are saying aboutthemselves.
Speaker 3 (06:34):
And what they're saying about themselves.
What I understand is that Godworks through them.
As evangelicals, they are notin charge of the world and they
have to be obedient participantsin this structure of
Christianity, and yet they'rejoining with the Republicans in
government in enacting.
Speaker 4 (06:55):
you know voting systems and you know laws, so
it's exactly yeah it's, it's,it's double talk and double
speak at every moment withevangelicals, and if you don't
understand that, then you mightget very confused trying to
follow all their machinations.
(07:15):
But I think this is a reallyimportant part of what they're
doing and one sense they'resaying this out loud to people
to say oh we, you know, we justwant what God wants, right, but
in reality it's what they wantin order to control the
narrative, to control schools,to control, you know, other
parts of civic society.
Speaker 2 (07:35):
I think so much of what you're saying resonates
with 15th century Christianity,you know, and how that justified
the whole age of discovery, youknow, which really begins with.
You know, a number of papaldocuments that that justify in
the enslavement of Africans, youknow, through the Canary
(07:57):
Islands and whatnot.
And then and then the taking oflands of all non-Christian
people right, they were, theywere, their project was really
about Christendom, you know,creating the kingdom of God on
earth, which in many waysresonates with what I'm hearing
about the evangelicals.
Was that right?
Speaker 4 (08:17):
No, exactly, and I think you know the, the how
should I put it?
The game has changed, but theplan remains the same, and so,
in other words, if you can thinkabout all of these people that
you are trying to makesubservient to your willing, to
your beliefs as heathens, andthat you have the right to do
(08:37):
whatever you want to do withthem because they don't believe
as you do and they are heathens,then this is how we see the
kinds of things that we'reseeing today, with the kinds of
you know abuses, the cuttingback of people's rights, you
know.
So those are the things that Ithink really resonate from the
doctrine of discovery forward tothe 21st century.
Speaker 3 (09:00):
This brings to mind a documentary that was done on a
movement that was started withBilly Graham in the 70s and
there's a documentary out calledAwakened and he had a gathering
of evangelical Indians who hepretends will be the saviors of
Christianity as they move outinto the world, so among the
(09:22):
least of us shall.
Shall now lead us to thekingdom of God, and it's just so
mind-boggling.
Speaker 2 (09:29):
It's been very successful.
You might add too, you know,among indigenous peoples.
Speaker 3 (09:33):
Yeah, we're talking about completely opposing
orientations of how we live ashuman beings in the world.
When the Jesuits came intoMohawk territory or any
indigenous community in thenortheast, they were first hit.
They came in within a handfulof years and right away renamed
the people.
They forced them intoChristianity and restructured
(09:57):
the matrilineal family into apatriarchy.
And that started within, youknow, years, months of first
contact, so that familystructure was part of the model
for conquest, an effective wayof conquering masses of people
and cultures.
And so you know you're talkingabout the power of the family
(10:20):
among evangelicals.
Well, that's nothing new.
Speaker 4 (10:23):
No, it's not no, but I think what my book shows is
that you can see this, you knowobsession with the family, even
in the 19th century goingforward, that's a little bit
later than you know whathappened with the Mohawk.
It's still there, right, andstill the control of the family
means you get to control that.
But I think even a moreimportant point you know, for
when we're talking about, youknow, mohawk or any other
(10:45):
indigenous group of people isthat whiteness is the
overarching game game, right,whiteness and Christianity.
And so part of this is aboutChristianity representing a kind
of cultural whiteness that hasto be imposed upon groups so
that you know your way ofthinking about your cosmology,
how you marry, how you bury, howyou teach your children, the
(11:09):
kinds of rituals that you haveas Native American groups.
Those things were wiped out andthis is the same thing that
happens and I talk about this inmy book in the 20th and 21st
century way, by talking aboutthe issue of color blindness and
how color blindness is the wayin which, you know, people say,
well, I don't see color.
It means that they don't seeanything but white and they like
(11:31):
the cultural aspects ofwhiteness.
You know whether that's aboutsinging or, you know, worship or
any of those other kinds ofthings, and that cultural
whiteness is the norm.
That is the norm that you mustaccede to in order to belong to
these groups.
Speaker 1 (11:44):
Do you need help catching up on today's topic or
do you want to learn more aboutthe resources mentioned?
If so, please check our websiteat
podcastdoctrineofdiscoveryorgfor more information and, if you
like this episode, review it onApple, spotify or wherever you
listen to podcasts.
And now back to theconversation.
Speaker 3 (12:04):
You'd mentioned in, I think it was the 70s, where the
church white churches werebeing opened up to African
American congregates and thatthey would come to church on
Sunday, but no one was everinvited afterwards to come home
and have dinner and have heavyconversations.
Speaker 4 (12:24):
Yeah, yeah, you're not invited to Bible study.
You might disagree with howthey read the Bible, right.
Speaker 2 (12:31):
Right, right, you know, you know, just to just to
kind of backtrack a little bit,if you could for our listeners,
just kind of go through brieflythe history of the evangelical
movement, because I mean we'reglumping together a lot of you
(12:52):
know Christian movements in theUnited States and beyond, but
the evangelical movement startsas kind of a lesser version of
Christianity, you know tentrevivals or something like that,
and then kind of you know, youknow generates into you know
(13:12):
university campuses and allthese other kinds of things.
And so I think you know you'redistinguishing in the book
between mainline Christianityand then evangelical
Christianity, which is sometimesreferred to as
non-denominational.
Speaker 4 (13:27):
I think that's right.
Yes, yeah, that's where it getsmessy.
Speaker 2 (13:32):
So if you can kind of like, so let me give you a
streamlined version.
Speaker 4 (13:35):
First of all, I have to tell you that they would not
like to think of themselves aslesser, so that's very important
.
So that is very important.
You know, never say that to theevangelical because they'll go.
We're the reason why you gotMartin Luther.
We are the different kinds ofthings, and if we think about
the first great awakening with,you know, jonathan Edwards and
(13:57):
others, to the second greatawakening and Cain Ridge Revival
and Revivalism and the rise ofevangelicalism in the 19th
century, this becomes important.
So if you want to think aboutwhat evangelicals are, let me
give you an example for peoplewho are listening, how that
might work out for you.
Southern Baptists areevangelicals.
You could talk about Christianreform churches as evangelicals.
You know these aredenominations, but they're not
(14:19):
mainline in the sense that we'retalking about Methodist
Presbyterians.
We're talking about groups thathave a particular orientation
to evangelicalism and to the wayin which they evangelize.
Okay, one person that peopledon't think about a lot and
thinking about in terms ofevangelicalism is Charles Finney
, the great revivalist, who cameup with the idea of the anxious
(14:39):
bench, and so that happenedright around Syracuse University
in Rochester, new York.
That was the first place thatthe anxious bench happened right
, and so that mode of confessingyourself and confessing your
faith in Jesus Christ became animportant part of services.
And so in the 19th century,which you can, you know, sort of
think about in terms ofevangelicalism is you could
(15:02):
think about pro-slaverymovements, you can think about
anti-slavery movements, you canthink about missions and revival
.
You can also think aboutviolence, because lots of
evangelicals were involved inthe Civil War on both sides.
Okay, so that makes itimportant.
I think what's also importantto talk about for evangelicals
and they don't like it very muchis to talk about what I
(15:23):
discussed in my book the LostCause, the Confederacy and
lynching and all of those kindsof things that are happening
post-Civil War that influencenot just, you know, civil
society but religion and racism.
Right.
And in the 20th century we canstart to think about the ways in
which evangelicals start, youknow, religious schools or they
(15:45):
break apart from schools.
Let's think about, you know,princeton versus Westminster
Theological Seminary and theseminary I went to, fuller
Seminary, which is the home ofneo-evangelicalism, or that new
evangelicalism in the 1940s.
Okay, but I think you know ifyou really wanted to place
evangelicalism in a certainpoint, that is an understandable
(16:07):
point for people who are nothistorians and not, you know,
religious studies scholars.
You look at the figure of BillyGraham.
Billy Graham was an evangelist,traveled all over the world,
was very instrumental in havinglots of different revivals and
places all around the world, andnot only that, was very
instrumental in bringingtogether something very
(16:28):
important, which is Presidentswith this evangelical leadership
.
And that is really key becausethat is the moment in which we
take that churn to religion andpolitics right.
It's not that religion andpolitics didn't exist before.
It's like evangelicals did this,and Billy Graham in particular,
in part to inscribe this kindof nationalistic Christianity.
(16:53):
And that nationalisticChristianity has come forward up
until today, where we seepeople who were attacking the
Capitol on 1-6, because theybelieve that the election had
been stolen and that it shouldbe given to this figure of
Donald Trump.
And I think that what peopleneed to understand about this
history and I'm not going to gointo it because this is a
(17:14):
podcast, we can't get everywhere, right, but I want you to read
the book is that what I'mtracing in that book is the
history of racial prescriptionand how evangelicals have been
racist the entire time andpretended not to be, first of
all, and, secondarily, how theirown theology helps them to
(17:35):
continue upon this path ofracism and nationalism and
whiteness.
Speaker 2 (17:41):
And it's really interesting the way you're
deploying whiteness too in thisbook, I think, because it's not
just white people, right.
It's a kind of mythic framingor a kind of framework,
sociological framework in someway right, that it doesn't
(18:02):
adhere to, like Native Americansor African Americans or
whomever.
It's difficult to get at right.
The racism that you're tryingto introduce us to and to
articulate in the book, I think,is a little more complex than
(18:23):
people are normally at to thinkabout, right.
Speaker 4 (18:26):
Yes, that's correct.
It's complex in this sense, andforgive me for putting it like
this, but there was a woman whojust recently read my book, and
she read chapter one, and she'shad this incident that I talk
about between an AfricanAmerican Christian singer and a
pastor and a business leader Iwon't give it all away and she
said I don't understand why thisword blessing is bad.
(18:49):
And I'm like well, you can'tsee this because of your
whiteness.
And this is where, even thoughyou're reading my book, I'm
having to explain this to you sothat you understand how much
whiteness has blinded you.
And so I think it was reallyimportant for her to understand
what was actually happening,first of all, and then,
secondarily, to also grasp thefact that well meaning white
(19:14):
people too, can be engaged withthis concept of whiteness that
drags us all into this kind of,you know, morass of not seeing
people as they really are, firstof all, and then, secondarily,
trying to make them fit intospaces that they should not fit
into.
Speaker 2 (19:28):
Right, yeah, right.
And I mean you know whitenessis a creation, in many ways, of
you know the colonial moment,you know coming into territories
that aren't yours, justifyingthat occupation, enslaving
indigenous Africans.
You know these tactics ofcreating a society based on race
(19:54):
, based on whiteness.
Then, you know, is deployedvery specific reasons, right,
and I think we're stillgrappling with that kind of
legacy.
Speaker 4 (20:07):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (20:07):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (20:08):
Yeah, we are.
I mean, I think what's alsoimportant too is if you think
about, you know, the doctrine ofdiscovery alongside this age of
discovery right, and how peopleare doing this.
Well, the next thing thathappens, obviously, is the
enlightenment, and that's whereyou start to see the beginnings
of, you know, racialphilosophies and things like
that, with people who are, youknow, looking at this through
(20:32):
the lens of a Protestant lens inEurope, okay, and also through
Catholic lens at some point.
So I think you know, if wethink about somebody like Votar,
who talks about the noble,savage right and imagines, you
know, the Native American to bea certain kind of person, or we
think about Kant and others, Ithink that's really important
for people to understand thatgenealogy and how that happens,
(20:54):
okay.
So one good thing I wouldsuggest for readers there's an
old book by Cornell West,prophecy Deliverance, and in
that there's a chapter in thatit talks about the genealogy of
modern racism, and I always findthat very helpful for people to
understand if they're trying tofigure out how the doctrine of
discovery pairs up with the waysin which you think about racism
(21:16):
and how we got to this point,then you can start to see these
Enlightenment thinkers and howthey put this together and how
those thoughts, how thoseintellectual constructions of
race become part and parcel ofwhat begins to happen in the
American context with slaveryand other things.
Wow, fantastic.
Speaker 3 (21:34):
In the early 17th century there were Wyandotte
borders who went over to Europevery early in the 17th century.
This is after it was recordedthat the Wyandotte had been
exterminated and yet they'restill traveling around the world
as Wyandotte and they'reoffering knowledge and their
(21:57):
observations of Europe.
And it's before the cusp of theEnlightenment.
They're like saying you peoplespeak of liberty and equality,
but you're only equal under themonarchs or the pope.
You don't know what livingfreely is about.
So their eye is on the Americasand coming in and taking the
(22:21):
resources on this continent.
It wasn't that any of theIndigenous people were unaware
of what they were up to or whothey were.
They were very much aware andgave them much more thought than
Europeans are really giving theIndigenous people that lived in
Africa or in the Americas.
So it's like a reversal ofobservations and it's really so
(22:45):
sad and painful to think throughthis manipulation to get at the
resources.
Speaker 2 (22:52):
Yeah, I mean in the recent books, for example the
Dawn of Everything, they mapthis early 18th century
influence of Wyandotte 17thcentury.
No 1600.
1600.
Oh wow, okay, so they map thisearly influence or conversations
(23:17):
really between Jesuits andthese Native American orators
right and how.
For example, where?
Speaker 3 (23:26):
did the French For the early 1700s.
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (23:33):
So how did the French come up with ideas of equality
and fraternity and democracy?
Well, not through Christianity,right?
So I mean, I think that's whatyou're getting at here.
You know is that these areanti-democratic principles that
have been drawn out ofChristianity and certain reading
(23:55):
of the Bible, and, you know,they resonate again with what's
going on in this early period.
So we have these kind of what,these forces that are at odds
with one another in some way,democracy and, but you know, the
(24:16):
kingdom of God, I guess, right.
Speaker 4 (24:18):
Yeah, yeah, that's exactly right yeah.
Speaker 3 (24:23):
I mean the earth is a democracy.
Speaker 2 (24:25):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (24:26):
And it doesn't exist if all the elements that live on
this planet did not live andfulfill the responsibilities of
providing each other, in thisnetwork of life, with food.
And you know, it's ouridentities and diversity comes
from the original relationshipswe had with the natural world.
That's what created a diversehumanity.
(24:48):
Yeah, so you know, as theHaudenosaunee say, peace cannot
exist unless you're in properrelationship with the natural
world.
We cannot know ourselves unlesswe connect with the earth that
provides us our sustenance.
Speaker 2 (25:02):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (25:02):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (25:03):
There's a kind of radical democratic principle.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, we're goingto be so happy to be able to
welcome you into Onondaga Nationterritory.
I know you for some of yourcareer anyway.
You were up here and inRochester and you know some of
(25:27):
this.
But you know, what we try to doat the Scano Center is
introduce people to theinfluence of the Haudenosaunee,
for example on Americandemocracy or the women's
movement, as a way to kind ofbut challenge the dominant
narratives, I guess right.
So the question, I guess it'snot so much in your book, but
(25:49):
I'm wondering how do we makechange when these dominant
narratives are so, you know,intractable in our world?
I mean, you know we're tryingto change or decolonize the
narrative in some ways, you know, and I wonder, from your point
of view, how do we start tochallenge those dominant
(26:13):
narratives of whiteness and, youknow, transform what is a very
bad situation now?
Speaker 4 (26:21):
I think part of the way is to engage civically, and
what I mean by that is to beinvolved, not just in having
discussions, but to actuallydoing things.
I've said this to people beforeand they always look at me as
scant when I say voting is notenough, and what I mean by that
is you can go and pull the lever, but if you're not involved in
(26:42):
your local community wherethey're doing, you know things
at the school board or you knowcity hall, all of these kinds of
things you know.
Changing historical signage isactually really important.
Okay, that's key.
So you need to be involved withpreservation societies.
You have to be involved incertain kinds of ways where you
can see things begin to change.
This is how you change thenarrative.
(27:03):
Let me give you an example.
I have a chapter in the 1619book.
The 1619 project was welcomedand received by so many people
because it offered somethingdifferent to the narrative that
has been said about America.
Right, but what did immediatelyhappen?
Donald Trump and others decidedto come up with the 1776
(27:24):
project, which kind of died onthe vine, and 1619 is gonna last
much longer than that.
But there's always gonna bethis competing thing and I think
one of the things we have to dois to make sure more of this
history gets out like whatyou're doing with talking about
the doctrine of discovery.
You have to educate people, butyou have to educate people in
terms that they understand.
It can't just be this academicenterprise that we hold it to
(27:47):
ourselves, but we also have tofigure out how do we bring
knowledge to the public, how dowe help the public engage so
that when they start to seethese bad history books by David
Barton about, you know Americawas a Christian nation.
You know this is the hardestthing to uproot, for people is
to realize look, those guys whocame here Ben Franklin, thomas
(28:08):
Jefferson, all the rest of themnone of them wanted Christianity
.
They just wanted it to be likeit was.
It doesn't mean they wereperfect, it just means that even
they didn't want the impositionof Christianity from the
English.
Okay, so they wanted this to bea place where they could be.
You know, people could worshipas they wanted to.
Unfortunately, it didn't turnout that way and unfortunately
(28:30):
their behavior at times didn'tadvance that belief that they
wrote about.
But I think it's reallyimportant to point people back
to what's the what's this realhistory of America, how does
this happen?
And that we can't just say thatthis was an empty, barren land
and not recognize that therewere tribes and nations here
before anybody, any white person, got here.
Speaker 2 (28:50):
Right, right, at least that, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Well, thank you, antia Butler.
This has been a tremendousconversation.
We really enjoyed it.
Speaker 3 (29:04):
And everybody get Antia's book.
It's like 150 pages.
You fit so much in there.
I have to reiterate that againWhite evangelical racism, the
politics of morality in America.
Speaker 1 (29:20):
The producers of this podcast were Adam D J Brett and
Jordan Lawn Cologne.
Our intro in outro is socialdancing music by Oris Edwards
and Regis Cook.
This podcast is funded incollaboration with the Henry
Luce Foundation, SyracuseUniversity and Hendricks Chapel
and the Indigenous ValuesInitiative.
If you liked this episode,please check out our website and
(29:42):
make sure to subscribe.
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