Embark on a profound journey through the tapestry of American religious history with Joel Harrison, associate professor of religion, and his sharp students, Jason Armstrong and Christian Oppenhagen. Together, we unravel the complex narratives of civil religion and secularism, with a particular lens on the interplay of race and religion since the colonial era. Our conversation pivots around Joel's innovative teaching methods, as he leverages the January 6th insurrection as a vivid case study in his Religion 100 course at Northern Virginia Community College, engaging students with the pressing relevance of historical events in shaping today's religious and political landscapes.
Witness firsthand the transformative power of academic discourse as it escapes the confines of lecture halls and influences the broader world. The Doctrine of Discovery conference epitomizes scholarship's potency in initiating societal reflection and change, a revelation deeply felt by attendees like Jason. The connections forged among participants of various backgrounds underscore the role of academia in facilitating a collective confrontation with our intricate historical legacies. These moments serve as catalysts for personal growth and cultural respect, sparking an appreciation for the diverse tapestry that is our shared human experience.
Finally, we navigate the profound relationship between land, heritage, and identity, acknowledging the stark repercussions of European conquest on indigenous communities. Chris shares his enlightening experiences from the conference, inspiring a broader discussion on the primacy of land identity within indigenous culture and the importance of understanding our ancestral ties. Through this revelation, we are reminded of the enduring significance of our roots and the narrative of who we are, ensuring the past is not merely history—but a compass that guides our ongoing quest for understanding and empathy.
View the transcript and show notes at podcast.doctrineofdiscovery.org. Learn more about the Doctrine of Discovery on our site DoctrineofDiscovery.org.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:10):
Hello and welcome to the Mapping the Doctrine of
Discovery podcast.
The producers of this podcastwould like to acknowledge with
respect the onondogga nationfire keepers of the hoodnashoni,
the indigenous peoples on whoseancestral lands Syracuse
University now stands.
Now introducing your hosts,phil Arnold and Sandy Bigtree.
Speaker 2 (00:35):
Welcome back to Mapping the Doctrine of
Discovery.
My name is Phil Arnold.
I'm faculty in religion here atSyracuse University and also
core faculty in Native Americanindigenous studies.
Speaker 3 (00:49):
And I'm Sandy Bigtree , citizen of the Mohawk Nation
in Aqua-Suzney, and I'm theboard of the indigenous values
initiative.
Speaker 2 (01:00):
This podcast is being sponsored by the Henry Loose
Foundation and we appreciatethem continuing to support this
work.
Today we have some specialguests from Virginia, and first
I'd like to introduce JoelHarrison to us all.
Joel is associate professor ofreligion at Northern Virginia
(01:22):
Community College at Manassas,virginia, where he teaches
courses on the academic study ofreligion as well as college
composition.
He holds an MA and PhD inreligious studies from
Northwestern University, chicago, my kind of town.
In 2019, he received HenryLoose Foundation responsive
(01:43):
grant in theology with ChristinaTrayna and Barlin Milner.
Today we're speaking with Joeland some of his students who
recently attended and presentedat our conference the Religious
Origins of White Supremacy,johnson B McIntosh and the
Doctrine of Christian Discovery.
Joel, welcome, thank you.
(02:05):
Is there anything else you'dlike to say about yourself
before you introduce?
Speaker 4 (02:09):
your students.
No, I mean, I think that thatpretty well covers a solid
academic introduction there.
I've been teaching at NOVAsince 2019, focused mostly on
the Religion 100 course, theintroduction of the study of
(02:31):
religion course, which is wherethese students of mine came from
and where their papers for theconference came from, where the
idea to submit a panel for thisconference came from.
So the students here with ustoday are Jason Armstrong, who's
a dual enrollment student atNOVA, and Christian Oppenhagen,
(02:55):
who's also, I think, justfinished You're almost done at
NOVA.
I can't remember, but they wereboth students of mine Christian
two years ago, jason lastspring, so yeah, Well, it's
fantastic to have you here.
Speaker 2 (03:13):
I mean, as a teacher myself been in this a long time
I really appreciate you bringingstudents.
I mean, this is kind of new forus because we have kind of
academic-y sort of folks andlegal scholars and activists and
other kinds of folks, and thenfrom a community college, I
(03:34):
think that's really, reallyoutstanding.
You must be doing a great jobdown there.
So I appreciate that.
Thank you, and can you fill inus?
Fill us in on the story youknow, like how you learned about
the conference and sort of howit resonated with your students.
Speaker 3 (03:54):
And also how it impacts how you teach the
academic study of religion.
Sure yeah, it must turn it allon its head when we're talking
about American religions right,right, yeah.
Speaker 4 (04:06):
I think that probably the story starts actually way
back in 2021, in December of2021, when I found out about the
Uncivil Religion Project thatwas put together by the
Religious Studies Department atthe University of Alabama, mike
Altman, who is an associateprofessor there, and the
(04:26):
Smithsonian Museum and that is aproject that sort of documents
the religious aspects of theJanuary 6th insurrection and as
I was looking through thatresource, I thought it was such
a fantastic resource.
It's a free resource and that'sthe perfect kind of thing to
have as a sort of centerpiecetext in a community college
(04:51):
course, because the more freematerials you can provide
students, the better in acommunity college setting.
So I redesigned my Religion 100course to use the January 6th
insurrection as a case study forstudents to sort of practice
(05:12):
the academic study of religion,to try to make it.
I mean, it still is theoretical, right, we can't really think
about an event like that withoutthinking theoretically about it
.
But I wanted them to sort ofsee how do religious studies
scholars think about this kindof event and how do they write
about this kind of event.
(05:33):
It was a little bit of a risk,admittedly my colleague in my
very small department there'sonly two of us.
My other colleague was likegood luck with that, not because
she didn't think that I coulddo it, but just because how
(05:54):
volatile the political situationwas and just being in Northern
Virginia, being so close to it,there could have been a lot of
room for controversy.
But really it hasn't gone thatway.
It's been, I think, overallvery well received by the
students.
(06:14):
It's not a typical 100 levelcourse.
I asked the students to doreading that is not at the 100
level.
It's well beyond the 100 level,but the way that I assess them
is sort of at the 100 level.
So, after kind of a generalintroduction to the history of
(06:38):
the academic study of religion,we were looking at that event
from three differentperspectives from American
religious history, from theconcept of civil religion and
secularism, and then from thehistory of kind of the
interaction or entanglement ofrace and religion through the
(07:00):
colonial period.
And what I wanted them to seeis that all of these elements
are sort of bubbling under thesurface of this one event.
That to analyze the religiousaspects of an event like January
6 is not just to look for sortof the outward signs of people
singing or invoking the name ofJesus on a sign with Donald
(07:23):
Trump or something, but to askthe question of sort of like,
where does this idea ofchosenness come from, where does
this idea of entitlement comefrom?
And to think sort of from adeeper historical perspective
about those things.
And so when I saw the call forpapers and I think I just saw it
(07:46):
on Twitter, to be honest, youknow, just following a religious
studies conference account Isaw the title of the conference
and I thought, oh, this isreally interesting.
And a lot of my students haveasked me in the past like they
want to know, like what are thenext steps?
(08:07):
Because for some of them reallylike writing, all I ask them to
do in this class they have some, you know, weekly assignments,
short kind of reflection writingassignments, but the main
assignment is just to produce ashort paper, four and a half to
I think the maximum is 10 pages,which only a few students
(08:29):
actually take me up on Jasonincluded in that group, but most
, you know, for so many of themit feels like a very important
paper for them to write and Ihave students telling me that
like I really want to do a goodjob on this paper.
This feels very significant forme personally to write this
(08:51):
paper to try to make sense ofthis.
You know, for myself, and thathas really struck me, because
I've never had students tell methat before about an assignment,
like I mean, they may like anassignment, they may have fun
doing an assignment, but I'venever had a student say this
paper is really important to me.
(09:11):
This means something to me,especially in a 100 level course
.
And so, you know, I think, whenI saw the call for papers for
the conference, I thought well,here's an opportunity for some
of those students to maybeengage in a wider conversation
(09:32):
about the origins of whitesupremacy.
They've started, you know, theyalready started thinking about
it, they've sort of dipped theirtoe into that and if they have
the opportunity to go to aconference like this, they can
see this ongoing widerconversation taking place and
kind of see how their you know,their work is fitting into that.
(09:56):
So that was kind of the thinkingbehind it and you know, and I
will say it was a first for NOVAtoo I don't think that I mean,
to my knowledge, no one hadtried, had tried to take
students to an academicconference like this before, and
you know, so trying to, youknow, find financial sources and
(10:19):
, you know, do that work.
It was a lot of, you know, abunch of us, including
administration, which you know.
I really am so thankful for theadministration at the college
for really taking this seriouslyand not simply saying, like you
know, well, I don't know ifthis sounds like a thing
community college students woulddo or should be doing.
(10:40):
Nobody said that.
Everyone was like, yes, this isa great opportunity, let's find
the money, let's make thishappen.
And they did it, and it was.
It was amazing.
Speaker 2 (10:51):
So, yeah, that's so inspiring for me because, you
know, I've always thought, evensince I was a graduate student,
which is a long time ago now,that you know the academic study
of religion really needs tospeak to the moment, to what's
going on in society right now.
And I try to train graduatestudents that way too, you know,
(11:14):
even though you know a lot ofthem are graduated with
philosophy or other kind of moreabstract ideas.
Of course that's that's what wedo too, that's our bread and
butter, but you know, but Ithink kind of have an engaged
scholarship is what I'm goingfor here.
And, frankly, not many of ourstudents I'll just say this, not
(11:39):
many of our grad students getjobs at community colleges I
mean, it's not like a thing,it's more kind of a larger
research-oriented universitiesthat have these tenure-track
jobs.
So there are a lot of thingsabout this whole story that I
find inspiring.
Is someone training?
We don't train many gradstudents.
(12:02):
A few every year but it's likewhere do they go?
And particularly when?
In this moment when humanityseems to be dying or becoming
more and more irrelevant formany people I'll put that in
scare quotes, but I think thatthe academic study really needs
(12:23):
to step up.
We need to do this work kind ofon us to make it relevant, and
so I see this your story here,joel, is very inspiring.
I appreciate it.
Yeah, we've been at this for Idon't know, over 15 years now in
the area of doctrine, ofdiscovery work and, as I said,
(12:46):
the Loose Foundation is nowfunding us, which is something
that probably wouldn't havehappened 15 years ago, or even
probably five years ago.
So I think that there arefoundations, there is interest
in these topics and moving intothese topics that I have seen in
(13:09):
a longer arc and maybe couldreally help us moving into the
future.
But let's step back a littlebit.
I want to hear from you, chrisand Jason.
I want to hear from you about,like your experience your around
this topic of your experience,of how the conference impacted
(13:36):
you or what you saw or what kindof you know, so we can get some
feedback from a studentperspective, you know.
So, yeah, so, coming into theconference.
Can you identify yourself?
Sorry, I'm just so.
Speaker 5 (13:53):
Oh, I'm Jason.
Coming into this conference Ididn't have a lot of experience
and I hadn't heard much aboutthe doctrine of discovery, apart
from the religion class with DrJoel.
But being there at theconference it gave me like a
(14:14):
deeper understanding of thetopic and it was, it's really
well.
It was saddened to see all this, but it would.
Yeah, I was just appreciativeof, like now I know of this
stuff.
Right, you're not taught thisstuff in schools, you're not
taught doctrine of discovery,but it was.
(14:37):
It was really I okay, that'swhat it was.
The conference is veryeye-opening for me, that's
awesome.
Speaker 3 (14:45):
Has it changed the way you perceive the world in
general, or in being an American, or your identity?
And what you thought was thehistory.
Speaker 5 (14:54):
Yeah, so yeah, definitely the history right,
but I think I have a greaterappreciation for different
cultures.
I think that's what it gave me,and you know, because when
you're taught just one thing,you don't see the other side.
(15:15):
And so, yeah, it's very.
The conference is eye-openingand allowed me to appreciate the
other sides.
Speaker 2 (15:28):
Yeah, I mean you mentioned, Jason, that it's very
sad, it's a traumatic historyand that we're dealing a lot
with a lot of trauma here, butthen also it's a unifying issue.
You know, it's a way that wecan kind of work collaboratively
.
That's one of the themes thatwe hope to bring out, I hope.
(15:48):
Did you see that in theconference at all?
Speaker 5 (15:53):
Yeah, yeah, it was cool to see so many different
people Like.
It was like a working.
You know the conference wascollaborative, right?
It was everyone working towardsone goal, right?
Or talking about the doctrineof discovery, which is really
cool to see so many differentperspectives and people from
(16:15):
different backgrounds comingtogether.
Speaker 3 (16:18):
The bottom line is all your ancestors in the past
were indigenous at one point, sothere has to be some element
that was an awakening in yourown being and understanding of
your own lineage.
Maybe this is why you have moreunderstanding and interest now
in other cultures, because yourancient cultures were also wiped
(16:42):
out with this kind ofauthoritarian rule.
Speaker 2 (16:46):
We hear that a lot from Putt and Shoney.
You know, leaders, or Boyani asthey're called, that you know.
It's just that the age ofdiscovery has hit them most
recently.
Where you know, the history ofEurope is sort of littered with
these stories of indigenouspeoples being overrun, you know,
(17:12):
at various moments, and so theyalways are encouraging even
members of our board, in factencouraging all of us to really
investigate our own genealogies.
You know, I mean, it is a thingnow.
You know, that people areinterested in their backgrounds,
their genealogical backgrounds,and I'm one of those.
But you know, there's a reasonfor that too.
(17:35):
I mean, I think people arelooking for something.
You know, it's a moreorientation.
Speaker 3 (17:41):
So when land identifies who you are in
indigenous cultures, it's hardto identify when that
relationship with the naturalworld has been stripped from you
, from your ancestors.
So there is this longing ofdetachment, because that's in
effect where we receive life,and it's regenerative and it's
(18:04):
exciting and ever-changing right.
Speaker 4 (18:07):
Yeah, I will say, sandy, I so appreciated your
words about the connection toland and the indigenous
connection to land.
I think it was on the openingnight of the conference.
Because one of the mostimpactful for me days of the
(18:30):
class is when we talk about theway that the Spanish sort of
theologically justified theirconquest of indigenous peoples
based on their, you know,accusing essentially the
indigenous peoples of having theincorrect relationship to the
land or misunderstanding therelationship which opened them
up to demonic possession and soforth, and that we read an essay
(18:54):
by Willie Jennings who talksabout Jose de Acosta, the priest
who you know was surveying theland and the people for the
Spanish crown, and it's adifficult essay for students to
read, we spend a bit of timeunpacking it.
(19:14):
But the idea that even the whitestudents in the class have, at
some point in their history,some indigenous ancestors who
had land, that's a really, Ithink, useful way of framing
that conversation, because I dohave.
(19:35):
I regularly have white studentswho will say to me, right sort
of in confidence, as a whiteprofessor, you know, I don't
know how I'm supposed toidentify with this or think
about this.
You know, they, you know, and Ithink that.
That's a really helpful way offraming for that.
Yeah, that's really important.
Speaker 2 (19:55):
Yeah, yeah, I think that's important, joel, because
I think this investigationalways drives us back to primary
sources, or primary sources,which is a real experience for
students as well.
I mean, you know, I read someof those, you know, like the
Columbus diaries or some ofthese papal bulls or things like
that.
You go through them in classand it's like it's like
(20:18):
revelatory, you know, you knowso.
So we don't.
You know, it's not biblicalexegesis, but it is, you know.
It is a sort of you know,interpretation of texts that are
primary in a different kind ofway.
But, chris, I wanted to giveyou a chance to jump in here to
(20:39):
talk about your experience atthe conference and also how it
might have impacted you, likegoing forward.
Speaker 6 (20:49):
Yes, well, I actually had some experience with some
of this between previously,before the degree I was working
on.
That brought me into ProfessorHarrison's class.
I was working on ananthropology degree and so I've
(21:11):
been exposed to some of the waysthat anthropology had been used
as a tool of oppression.
Because anthropology they'revery open At least most of the
disciplines within anthropologyare very open about this was our
past being used to oppress theminorities.
(21:34):
But now we're looking, we'retrying to look at things through
their lens, while also lookingfrom the outside.
So while I never interacteddirectly with the doctrine of
discovery itself, I've beenaround and I've known through my
(21:55):
experiences, I've seen thehistory of what's happened and
what the doctrine of discoverydid.
So for me a lot of theconference was actually putting
into life of.
You know, it was a bit.
It was a bit like working on apuzzle have all the pieces.
(22:16):
Then I went to the conferenceand somebody finally showed me
what the picture was supposed tolook like.
You know, here's the, here'sthe top of the box.
Okay, now I see how all thesepieces come together, whereas
before it was more like oh yeah,I know about the oppression of
Native Americans.
(22:36):
I know how they were treated andhow indigenous cultures were
treated by most of theconquering groups, but now it
was, oh, this was thejustification given Beyond.
Just here, let's pour a bunchof sand into this skull and see
how much that skull can hold,and we're going to completely
(22:59):
hide the fact that the skullwith the more amount actually
came from a minority.
This is the white skull.
This is the black skull becausethat can't be right.
Speaker 2 (23:11):
That can't be right, right yeah.
Speaker 6 (23:13):
Exactly so.
For me, the conference was verymuch so putting everything into
life and kind of giving me alittle bit more perspective on
things.
Yeah, which I reallyappreciated as a student of
culture, as a student of history, being able to see where things
(23:36):
fit on the other side of thelens of the historical texts.
Speaker 2 (23:43):
Yeah, yeah, I mean I think the university I don't
know about down in Virginia,your place, but we divide up
academic study of religion andthe humanities, and anthropology
and social science, evennatural sciences, right.
So here we have an indictmentreally across thought knowledge
(24:06):
systems in a way, because for meI think religion gets more at
the root of this issue, becauseit supplies the worldview and,
as you said, risk ofjustification for these
conquerors who, after all, theyleave home and then set up shop
(24:32):
somewhere else and do theseatrocious things to people.
And what's driving all that?
What could make a person dothat?
Right, it just seems absurd intoday's world, but in a way it's
still operative.
So I think there are differentways of coming at this, from
(24:53):
different points of view.
For me, religion seems to get alittle deeper.
You get us deeper into thequagmire, you know.
So I appreciate you.
You know mixing it up.
Speaker 3 (25:06):
And at the same time of discovery, there are these
great thinkers right who areenvisioning a new world.
So when we're creating theUnited States, there's two
forces here going kind of headto head against one another the
explorers, the what landspeculators, and then you have
the great thinkers of theEnlightenment era.
(25:28):
And if you dig into that, whatignited that school of thought
and many writers today aresaying it, was this involvement
over hundreds of years ofinteractions with the indigenous
people from the Americas,because they lived in these true
democracies that were nothierarchical.
(25:51):
So you have these idealizedvisions of creating this new
world and then you have thesegreedy speculators who just want
to take the land as a resource.
And then you have those back tothe just the founding right.
You know, when the British werestill in power and during that
(26:11):
switch over to the Americanists,they were using, you know, the
wisdom of the hood and the showme talking about the great law
of peace where people lived inequity and freedom and the great
and peace, and these were notconcepts readily discussed in
Europe.
So this, this issued for thenew possibility of living with
(26:34):
one another in this world.
But we had that.
That iconography, by the waywas incorporated into
presidential seal and if youdelve into that history will
find references to that livingin peace and the message of the
hood and the show me.
And years later that thefashion of the loose salini Well
(26:55):
, this is before mostly, but ofRome, because he took that
emblem from Rome, the RomanEmpire and Empire building
authority, authoritarianism thaticonography started being
introduced after they were usingthis other bundle of arrows
that the show me talked aboutrepresenting peace.
So so much was in conflict inthose early years and then, of
(27:19):
course, 1823, the doctrinediscoveries and coded into
American property.
So people need to know what wasgoing on then, and you know you
have choices to make, and are wegoing to continue?
Speaker 2 (27:33):
I don't know how close you are to Washington DC,
but it's a fascinating look atjust the art iconography in the,
in the, in the nation's capital, you know.
I mean you look at the kind offigures, the authoritative
figures, you know, columbus, ofcourse, is there All through the
(27:57):
capital building.
But then on the flip side, thenyou go down to the screen court
chambers that are underneaththe Senate, the original screen
court chambers, and there arecord corn, cob columns that are
supporting just.
They've been just recentlyrestored in the last 30 years.
(28:19):
This is a, this is a hearkeningback to, you know, when the
capital was first constructed inthe early 1800s, before Johnson
, and it's a, it's a nod to thehood and a shone influence.
And then you know tobacco leaflentils, of course you know that
(28:41):
support that are in thebasement of the capital
supporting that, that dome, youknow.
So actually, you know we'reintegrating a lot of those
images in the scant of centerright now I don't know if you
got to see the scant of center.
that was one of my questions.
Were you here early enough tobe able to go to the scant of
center?
Speaker 4 (29:03):
I think Jason, did you take that tour.
Speaker 5 (29:06):
Yeah, I did.
Yeah, okay, it's really coolyeah.
Speaker 2 (29:12):
What did you like about it?
I mean, we're, you know we were, we were instrumental in
creating that space, like 10years ago, more than 10 years
ago now, but but I'd appreciate,you know, your comments about
that.
Speaker 5 (29:28):
Yeah.
So I mean again, like justgoing to that, I got a deeper
understanding of the story ofoppression and I didn't realize
how, like the magnitude of theoppression war, and it was yeah,
(29:48):
I really loved how, as youcould walk through like well, I
didn't like it but no, so youwalk through, you know the story
continued and how it's a path,it was yeah, it was very, it was
very powerful.
Speaker 2 (30:03):
And then the fact that Haudenosaunee are still
here.
I mean you're eating their foodand you know you're interacting
with them, you know.
I mean, I think that's whatwe're, that's kind of what we're
going through.
Speaker 3 (30:16):
There's still possibilities in the world you
know they're still here.
We're still here, yeah.
Speaker 1 (30:27):
Do you need help catching up on today's topic or
do you want to learn more aboutthe resources mentioned?
If so, please check our websiteat
podcastdoctrineofdiscoveryorgfor more information and, if you
like this episode, review it onApple, Spotify or wherever you
listen to podcasts.
And now back to theconversation.
Speaker 2 (30:48):
Your classes, joel, how does, how do, how do?
How has the conference?
Will the conference sort ofchange your ideas about your
curriculum for your class?
I mean, you said you startedwith some of these earlier texts
, but one of the things we'rehoping to accomplish, we created
(31:09):
this website.
Actually, adam has created thewebsite and we're sort of
loading it up with othermaterials that can.
That might be of help.
I'm wondering if that's ofinterest to you.
Speaker 4 (31:23):
Oh, absolutely, yeah, I'm.
I am always trying to point mystudents to as many free
resources as possible.
You know, I think that for alot of undergraduates they're
they're kind of go to is just tostart with Google and go from
there, and so you know I'll getpapers that have a lot of.
(31:47):
You know we'll cite a lot oflike journalism or something
like that.
But I really try to encouragethem to, you know, use the
sources.
I mean, I try to set up theclass so that they don't have to
do any outside research if theydon't want to.
And you know they can use allthe reading from my class.
But I am in court, you know,wanting to incorporate this
semester more about the doctrineof discovery specifically.
(32:13):
As you know, we talk about,like the doom diverse table bowl
and when these are the songgray laws in Spain and some of
these earlier kind of iterationsof justifications for
persecution of non white, nonChristian, non European peoples.
(32:34):
And I think that the doctrineof discoveries, you know,
certainly a natural, you knowone, one kind of bridging point
between what's going on incolonial, you know Europe to
January 6.
Right, I think, I think thatthat's a good.
(32:54):
Yeah, so I'm definitely goingto be.
That's one way that theconference certainly changed the
syllabus is to add in more ofthat specific discussion of what
the doctrine of discovery didin the US, because I mean,
they're like, like you werementioning, you know, even with
things is sort of like, you know, fine grained in my nude as as
(33:19):
the symbolism of the country andhow all these little details
come from these other places.
It, you know, it can beoverwhelming, I think, for
students to try to wrap theirtheir heads around all of this.
But yeah, I think thatconference gave me some, some
(33:41):
good tools for for thinkingabout how to kind of guide them
even more, you know, bridge thatgap between the colonial
entanglement of race andreligion.
And then what's happening onJanuary 6.
Speaker 2 (33:55):
Right.
Speaker 4 (33:56):
I mean that's what.
Speaker 2 (33:56):
that's what I was interested in.
How do we, how do we connectthose dots right?
How do you connect, like youknow, 500 year olds, you know
racist theology essentially withwhat's going on now in terms of
, like, christian nationalism?
You know, I mean, I mean, I seeit, I see it everywhere.
But you know, you know how doyou do that.
(34:18):
I'm just you know, just curious.
Speaker 4 (34:21):
Right, Well, so I mean, one of the things that I
do is we focus a lot on thelanguage of demons in this class
Are evil, evil.
Speaker 2 (34:33):
I suppose, or yeah, I mean.
Speaker 4 (34:34):
Well, so the ways that in American religious
history, you know, the othersright, those who are, you know,
part of, are the worldly or thenon Christian, the, the
unregenerate, are passed asdemonic at some level or sort,
(34:55):
or agents of the satanic orsomething like that.
How the culture wars get, youknow, throughout the 20th
century, get touched in thoseterms, and then when you go back
in time to the colonial period,you see similar language about
the demonic right, how theindigenous peoples, physical
bodies, are, you know, porousand sort of susceptible to
(35:18):
demonic possession, whereas the,you know, conquistadors,
because of Christ, they can't be, you know, possessed by the
devil, you know.
And so we, we talk about thekind of analogously, how that
language is similar and the ideathat I mean, if you truly
believe that your opponent is anagent of the devil, is, you
(35:42):
know, possessed by demons or isa demon a demon themselves, then
that gives you some moreinsight into the violence I
think of why people are, youknow, willing to sort of take up
the cause of January 6, youknow, from that one perspective.
So that's one of the ways thatwe, that we connect that.
Speaker 2 (36:06):
Wow, and that language is picked up by the
January January 6 people, thatis.
That are some of the groups,some of the religious
orientations of those right.
Speaker 4 (36:16):
Well, you have, for example, the Q and on conspiracy
theory, you know which you know, which believes, literally,
that the members of theDemocratic Party are Satan
worshiping.
Pedophiles, right, right, whoare you know?
and there's various iterationsof that, where you know, in some
(36:37):
cases, the, you know, opponentsof just in general, are demonic
forces or demons themselves orsomething like that, and it gets
very convoluted very quickly.
But you do see that thatlanguage.
You also see the language ofchosenness.
I mean there's some fantasticvideo resources from that day on
(37:00):
the uncivil religion site thatwill show, you know choirs of
Trump supporters.
You know singing we're thechosen of the Lord.
You know chosen generation.
You know that, that kind ofthing.
So this idea also of chosenness,that you will be protected from
the demonic forces because Godhas chosen your side for victory
(37:23):
, which is also similar to thelanguage that Jose de Acosta
uses right in his theologicaljustification of the conquest
way God has commissioned theChristians right to go to the
Isaiah, which that's the way theword that he uses to describe
the new world, right, the thatnobody would go to the quote
(37:47):
unquote new world if God had notput these resources there for,
as a kind of reward, right for.
And so there's this also thisidea that God has commissioned
the Spanish to go there andwrite the relationship to the
land that you know and use theseuntapped resources that are,
that are there that God hascommissioned them to use.
(38:09):
So there's, there's somesimilar language there to with
with this language of chosenness, yeah, yeah, it's, a
reminiscing.
Speaker 3 (38:20):
The ashes of corn.
Speaker 2 (38:22):
Yeah, you want me to tell them.
Oh, okay, so, so you know, Ihave actually five ancestors
that crossed on the Mayflower,so now, now, three of them
didn't last through the firstwinter, but so to survive, but,
(38:45):
but you know this.
So, so part of accounting forfor our history here in the
Americas, 500 or 400 year oldhistory, is looking at these
sites, right, one of the sitesthat we visited as a family and
remember Sandy and our kids areholding the show.
So one of the sites we visited,a cake pod was called corn hill
(39:09):
, which is a giant X really inthe middle of the parking lot,
and they're where the pilgrimslanded they were literally
starving in November of 1620.
And these are my ancestors,right, they sit upon this little
cache of corn that is is buriedthere and they, they in the, in
(39:35):
the plaque that's nearby, theythank God, or, without finding
that corn, they would surelyhave perished, something like
that right in the fact stole thecorn.
I call it kind of like the firsttheft, you know, because not
(39:55):
because they took the corn, butbecause they didn't thank the
right people right, or eventhank the people actually gave
them the corn.
They weren't appreciative ofmore like this, you know, rather
thanking this divineintervention for something you
know that that really had verylittle to do with it.
I mean in a way so so it's likeyou know there are these, there
(40:18):
are these other stories,personal stories that Sandy and
I are working on right now, thatthat that can help fill in some
of those details, you know.
But yeah, here I hear some ofthe resonance of like piece
pizza gate, for example, orother kind of thing going on.
You know, but, chris, chris, Iwonder if you have, if you have
(40:42):
some some sense of how thosedots are connected.
You know those 500 year olddots are connected after taking
Joel's course.
You know, like between you,know this kind of 500 year old
crazy religion talk, which isstill with us, by the way.
You know but but and and howhow it is changed and also
(41:06):
remain the same.
Speaker 6 (41:10):
Yes, I actually have the unfortunate honor, suppose
dishonor, maybe.
The profession that I've beenin for most of my adult life is
actually rather, at least downhere in the South, it's rather
(41:31):
infested with Christiannationalist groups so I've
gotten to see kind of from theinside.
I was raised without Christiannationalism and so I'd always
aired on the side, away from it,shy away from it.
But I got into a professionwhere it was very prevalent and
(41:52):
I've gotten to see a lot of theshifting.
It's no longer necessarilyalways calling out things like
demonic nature.
I mean, obviously there's stillthat major dot when you have
QAnon and Pizza Gain and allthat, but there's also
(42:15):
redirecting towards what can beconsidered more common enemies
and more secular enemies, suchas pedophilia, which is a major
cry from these Christiannationalists to try and
discredit the LGBTQ.
Plus.
They try and discreditimmigrants.
(42:36):
Anyone they don't disagree withcan potentially become either
demonic for the hardcore sex orpedophilic in the sex.
That want to be almost moresecular.
Speaker 2 (42:56):
And so you see it as a kind of range of positions, of
groups, orientations that runfrom explicitly religious to
more secular?
Is that what you're saying?
Speaker 6 (43:10):
I don't necessarily see it being more secular, but I
do see a range where it'sthey're trying to demonize in a
more secular way becausenecessarily I mean the satanic
panic of the 70s and 80s.
Going after things like Dungeonsand Dragons and rock music
(43:34):
didn't work for them.
So instead of calling out satanand demons in the modern era,
it's that there's still thathardcore sex that thinks that
will shake people out of theirrevelry for these groups.
But then there's the sex thatrealize and try to use a more
(44:00):
secular enemy.
Whereas the hardcore religiousgroups are using their religious
enemy of satan, of the devil ofdemons, these almost more
tactical groups that are stillreligious and still potentially
(44:21):
in their hearts feel that way,are instead using terminology of
society's demons, of thepedophile, of the rapist, of the
robber, and they're using thatto frame their enemies in a
negative light as well.
And it just shows a little bitmore of the not necessarily like
(44:46):
we can't fight them, so wemight join them, but we still
want to fight these groups, sowe can't fight that nobody
believes in demons and thatdemons aren't going to freak
everybody in the country outanymore.
So we'll join that and callthem something that everyone can
still agree is bad.
Speaker 4 (45:06):
Right, right, I think that there's also a common
thread, like, regardless ofwhether a group is using the
kind of a blanket term likepedophile or demonic, in that
they there's sort of viewing theone group of people as like a
complete existential threat.
Right, so it's not simply thatyou know these people are
(45:28):
immoral, but it's that theythreaten the very fabric of
existence.
Right, this is a cosmic, it'sstill a cosmic battle, I think,
for them on on on some level,which makes it part, still part
of, I think, the culture, warlogic throughout, especially
(45:50):
20th century American religioushistory.
And again, when you, whenyou're, when you see your
opponent as this, you know pureexistential threat, that that
makes this kind of reactionarypolitics all the more dangerous,
(46:10):
because then disagreements arenot simply political
disagreements or, you know,social disagreements or
something like that, but theyare truly viewed as threats like
what matters of life and death,I think, to a lot of people.
And that's it's, it can, it canbe scary, I think.
Speaker 3 (46:29):
Well, don't we know it?
Yeah, of course I think it'sreferred to as savage Indians.
You know, we repurposed a peacecenter where they had
beforehand talked about theJesuits coming in the 17th
century, and a local historicalassociation built a fort that
was 200 years off the mark sothey could promote the cowboy
(46:49):
and Indian theme, built in 19thcentury for the family to get
down in the 70s.
But you know, from 1933 onwardeverybody thought the savage
Indian was right here among thehood and the shoni.
So, much alive in the world.
Speaker 2 (47:08):
And I appreciate also what you're saying Christian,
because you know in many waysthat's in all of us, you know
that legacy of Christiannationalism you know.
I mean I think I think it'skind of in the in the water by
now because you know so many ofour, our students, grad students
(47:32):
in fact, in in the academicstudy really in various ways,
are kind of recovering fromtheir traumatic upbringings in,
you know, fundamentalistChristian groups.
You know, to some degree thatwas my experience, I mean.
You know it wasn't, it wasn'tas intense as some of my
(47:55):
students.
I'm thinking actually of Adam,who's a producer here, who's
who's got his PhD from ourdepartment and also had to work
very hard to to, you know, dealwith his own demons, if I could
say that you know from his, fromhis upbringing.
Another transgender student inour department, jess, she's
(48:23):
grappling with this traumaticlegacy, having grown up in the
South as well.
It's very personal in a way,but I think this work in the
Dockerman Discovery can help usall sort of organize and maybe
even heal.
We're talking to another.
Another podcaster actually runsa podcast called divorcing
(48:47):
religion out of BC Vancouver andshe and her husband actually
came to the conference and theirtherapists that are working in
this space.
You know, so now I wanted to.
So I do appreciate that thatthe personal dynamics of how
(49:08):
this this, this work might behelpful as well.
Speaker 3 (49:14):
Jason, has this impacted the way that you just
talk with your friends or familywhen you brought this knowledge
into any of those sorts ofconversations?
Speaker 5 (49:25):
Definitely with my family.
I've discussed this topic and,you know, tried to share what I
learned at the conference withthem and, yeah, yeah, I think, I
think I've been successful withthat.
Speaker 3 (49:40):
Initially, though, they're in shock.
Right, that's what I have found.
That can't even believe it.
You know real yeah.
Speaker 2 (49:50):
Yeah, my dad's 95 and he still has to go with what I
do.
I mean I love you, dad, but wow.
Speaker 3 (50:05):
That's what he's done .
Speaker 2 (50:06):
I hope he doesn't listen to this.
He won't.
Speaker 3 (50:08):
I'm absolutely convinced.
Speaker 2 (50:15):
So one of the questions that you actually
brought up for me, joel, and oneof the questions we consular
turning over in this work, islike when does the doctrine of
discovery start?
You know, I mean it's, you know, is it mid 15th century?
Well, yes, that's kind of it,is it?
Is it the crusades?
Because so much of the, so muchof the spirit of, and you see
(50:39):
that today it's still operative,you know, is it the 11th
century?
You know, I mean, and then youcan make an argument, I think is
the foundation of the Romanchurch.
You know, in the fourth century.
I mean it's, you know, I thinkwe should be open to that kind
of investigation.
(51:01):
You know of thinking about the,you know.
So now we're talking about what1500 years or more that that
were that were kind of grapplingwith these questions.
I mean, you know, james Carrollwrote this book, constantine
Sword, which really places theorigins of anti Semitism,
(51:21):
something that I listened toabout on the radio just today.
You know, you know, and theorigins of that are in the in
the fourth century Roman churchand, you know, fashioning the
Bible in certain kinds of ways.
So I mean you know, you know itcan get too expensive, but then
(51:42):
on the other hand it does seemrelevant, you know, not to say
you should bring this into yourclass, but you know, you know
because you kind of want to keepit focused on the American
issue.
But but you know there arethese other facets of the
problem that I see could couldeasily motivate you know,
(52:04):
further kind of graduate work,things like that.
Speaker 3 (52:08):
There are indigenous cities here that rivaled any
city in Europe, but there wereno police forces or prisons.
You know, they lived freely andwith equity with one another
and with the natural world, sofor 10,000 years, you know.
So what was so different here?
How?
Why was it so different?
Speaker 1 (52:28):
here than in.
Speaker 3 (52:28):
Europe Right and you should evaluate this and talk
about it Right?
Speaker 2 (52:34):
Yeah Well, I think this has been a great
conversation.
I really appreciate all of youI it is our hope that we can
continue this relationship withwith your spot, you know, with
Virginia, with your, with yourstudents, and even we have plans
(52:59):
on trying to make some of yourpapers those of you who want to
make your papers sort of publicthrough our website or through
other sorts of means.
So I really appreciate all ofyou for coming on today and and
I hope we can continue thisconversation.
Speaker 3 (53:21):
Thank you, hope we meet again.
Thank you, thank you.
Speaker 1 (53:28):
The producers of this podcast were Adam DJ Brett and
Jordan Lawn Cologne.
Our intro and outro is socialdancing music by Oris Edwards
and Regis Cook.
This podcast is funded incollaboration with the Henry
Luce Foundation, SyracuseUniversity and Hendrix Chapel
and the Indigenous ValuesInitiative.
If you liked this episode,please check out our website and
(53:50):
make sure to subscribe.
Hello and welcome to the Mapping the Doctrine of
Discovery podcast.
The producers of this podcastwould like to acknowledge with
respect the onondogga nationfire keepers of the hoodnashoni,
the indigenous peoples on whoseancestral lands Syracuse
University now stands.
Now introducing your hosts,phil Arnold and Sandy Bigtree.
Speaker 2 (00:35):
Welcome back to Mapping the Doctrine of
Discovery.
My name is Phil Arnold.
I'm faculty in religion here atSyracuse University and also
core faculty in Native Americanindigenous studies.
Speaker 3 (00:49):
And I'm Sandy Bigtree , citizen of the Mohawk Nation
in Aqua-Suzney, and I'm theboard of the indigenous values
initiative.
Speaker 2 (01:00):
This podcast is being sponsored by the Henry Loose
Foundation and we appreciatethem continuing to support this
work.
Today we have some specialguests from Virginia, and first
I'd like to introduce JoelHarrison to us all.
Joel is associate professor ofreligion at Northern Virginia
(01:22):
Community College at Manassas,virginia, where he teaches
courses on the academic study ofreligion as well as college
composition.
He holds an MA and PhD inreligious studies from
Northwestern University, chicago, my kind of town.
In 2019, he received HenryLoose Foundation responsive
(01:43):
grant in theology with ChristinaTrayna and Barlin Milner.
Today we're speaking with Joeland some of his students who
recently attended and presentedat our conference the Religious
Origins of White Supremacy,johnson B McIntosh and the
Doctrine of Christian Discovery.
Joel, welcome, thank you.
(02:05):
Is there anything else you'dlike to say about yourself
before you introduce?
Speaker 4 (02:09):
your students.
No, I mean, I think that thatpretty well covers a solid
academic introduction there.
I've been teaching at NOVAsince 2019, focused mostly on
the Religion 100 course, theintroduction of the study of
(02:31):
religion course, which is wherethese students of mine came from
and where their papers for theconference came from, where the
idea to submit a panel for thisconference came from.
So the students here with ustoday are Jason Armstrong, who's
a dual enrollment student atNOVA, and Christian Oppenhagen,
(02:55):
who's also, I think, justfinished You're almost done at
NOVA.
I can't remember, but they wereboth students of mine Christian
two years ago, jason lastspring, so yeah, Well, it's
fantastic to have you here.
Speaker 2 (03:13):
I mean, as a teacher myself been in this a long time
I really appreciate you bringingstudents.
I mean, this is kind of new forus because we have kind of
academic-y sort of folks andlegal scholars and activists and
other kinds of folks, and thenfrom a community college, I
(03:34):
think that's really, reallyoutstanding.
You must be doing a great jobdown there.
So I appreciate that.
Thank you, and can you fill inus?
Fill us in on the story youknow, like how you learned about
the conference and sort of howit resonated with your students.
Speaker 3 (03:54):
And also how it impacts how you teach the
academic study of religion.
Sure yeah, it must turn it allon its head when we're talking
about American religions right,right, yeah.
Speaker 4 (04:06):
I think that probably the story starts actually way
back in 2021, in December of2021, when I found out about the
Uncivil Religion Project thatwas put together by the
Religious Studies Department atthe University of Alabama, mike
Altman, who is an associateprofessor there, and the
(04:26):
Smithsonian Museum and that is aproject that sort of documents
the religious aspects of theJanuary 6th insurrection and as
I was looking through thatresource, I thought it was such
a fantastic resource.
It's a free resource and that'sthe perfect kind of thing to
have as a sort of centerpiecetext in a community college
(04:51):
course, because the more freematerials you can provide
students, the better in acommunity college setting.
So I redesigned my Religion 100course to use the January 6th
insurrection as a case study forstudents to sort of practice
(05:12):
the academic study of religion,to try to make it.
I mean, it still is theoretical, right, we can't really think
about an event like that withoutthinking theoretically about it
.
But I wanted them to sort ofsee how do religious studies
scholars think about this kindof event and how do they write
about this kind of event.
(05:33):
It was a little bit of a risk,admittedly my colleague in my
very small department there'sonly two of us.
My other colleague was likegood luck with that, not because
she didn't think that I coulddo it, but just because how
(05:54):
volatile the political situationwas and just being in Northern
Virginia, being so close to it,there could have been a lot of
room for controversy.
But really it hasn't gone thatway.
It's been, I think, overallvery well received by the
students.
(06:14):
It's not a typical 100 levelcourse.
I asked the students to doreading that is not at the 100
level.
It's well beyond the 100 level,but the way that I assess them
is sort of at the 100 level.
So, after kind of a generalintroduction to the history of
(06:38):
the academic study of religion,we were looking at that event
from three differentperspectives from American
religious history, from theconcept of civil religion and
secularism, and then from thehistory of kind of the
interaction or entanglement ofrace and religion through the
(07:00):
colonial period.
And what I wanted them to seeis that all of these elements
are sort of bubbling under thesurface of this one event.
That to analyze the religiousaspects of an event like January
6 is not just to look for sortof the outward signs of people
singing or invoking the name ofJesus on a sign with Donald
(07:23):
Trump or something, but to askthe question of sort of like,
where does this idea ofchosenness come from, where does
this idea of entitlement comefrom?
And to think sort of from adeeper historical perspective
about those things.
And so when I saw the call forpapers and I think I just saw it
(07:46):
on Twitter, to be honest, youknow, just following a religious
studies conference account Isaw the title of the conference
and I thought, oh, this isreally interesting.
And a lot of my students haveasked me in the past like they
want to know, like what are thenext steps?
(08:07):
Because for some of them reallylike writing, all I ask them to
do in this class they have some, you know, weekly assignments,
short kind of reflection writingassignments, but the main
assignment is just to produce ashort paper, four and a half to
I think the maximum is 10 pages,which only a few students
(08:29):
actually take me up on Jasonincluded in that group, but most
, you know, for so many of themit feels like a very important
paper for them to write and Ihave students telling me that
like I really want to do a goodjob on this paper.
This feels very significant forme personally to write this
(08:51):
paper to try to make sense ofthis.
You know, for myself, and thathas really struck me, because
I've never had students tell methat before about an assignment,
like I mean, they may like anassignment, they may have fun
doing an assignment, but I'venever had a student say this
paper is really important to me.
(09:11):
This means something to me,especially in a 100 level course
.
And so, you know, I think, whenI saw the call for papers for
the conference, I thought well,here's an opportunity for some
of those students to maybeengage in a wider conversation
(09:32):
about the origins of whitesupremacy.
They've started, you know, theyalready started thinking about
it, they've sort of dipped theirtoe into that and if they have
the opportunity to go to aconference like this, they can
see this ongoing widerconversation taking place and
kind of see how their you know,their work is fitting into that.
(09:56):
So that was kind of the thinkingbehind it and you know, and I
will say it was a first for NOVAtoo I don't think that I mean,
to my knowledge, no one hadtried, had tried to take
students to an academicconference like this before, and
you know, so trying to, youknow, find financial sources and
(10:19):
, you know, do that work.
It was a lot of, you know, abunch of us, including
administration, which you know.
I really am so thankful for theadministration at the college
for really taking this seriouslyand not simply saying, like you
know, well, I don't know ifthis sounds like a thing
community college students woulddo or should be doing.
(10:40):
Nobody said that.
Everyone was like, yes, this isa great opportunity, let's find
the money, let's make thishappen.
And they did it, and it was.
It was amazing.
Speaker 2 (10:51):
So, yeah, that's so inspiring for me because, you
know, I've always thought, evensince I was a graduate student,
which is a long time ago now,that you know the academic study
of religion really needs tospeak to the moment, to what's
going on in society right now.
And I try to train graduatestudents that way too, you know,
(11:14):
even though you know a lot ofthem are graduated with
philosophy or other kind of moreabstract ideas.
Of course that's that's what wedo too, that's our bread and
butter, but you know, but Ithink kind of have an engaged
scholarship is what I'm goingfor here.
And, frankly, not many of ourstudents I'll just say this, not
(11:39):
many of our grad students getjobs at community colleges I
mean, it's not like a thing,it's more kind of a larger
research-oriented universitiesthat have these tenure-track
jobs.
So there are a lot of thingsabout this whole story that I
find inspiring.
Is someone training?
We don't train many gradstudents.
(12:02):
A few every year but it's likewhere do they go?
And particularly when?
In this moment when humanityseems to be dying or becoming
more and more irrelevant formany people I'll put that in
scare quotes, but I think thatthe academic study really needs
(12:23):
to step up.
We need to do this work kind ofon us to make it relevant, and
so I see this your story here,joel, is very inspiring.
I appreciate it.
Yeah, we've been at this for Idon't know, over 15 years now in
the area of doctrine, ofdiscovery work and, as I said,
(12:46):
the Loose Foundation is nowfunding us, which is something
that probably wouldn't havehappened 15 years ago, or even
probably five years ago.
So I think that there arefoundations, there is interest
in these topics and moving intothese topics that I have seen in
(13:09):
a longer arc and maybe couldreally help us moving into the
future.
But let's step back a littlebit.
I want to hear from you, chrisand Jason.
I want to hear from you about,like your experience your around
this topic of your experience,of how the conference impacted
(13:36):
you or what you saw or what kindof you know, so we can get some
feedback from a studentperspective, you know.
So, yeah, so, coming into theconference.
Can you identify yourself?
Sorry, I'm just so.
Speaker 5 (13:53):
Oh, I'm Jason.
Coming into this conference Ididn't have a lot of experience
and I hadn't heard much aboutthe doctrine of discovery, apart
from the religion class with DrJoel.
But being there at theconference it gave me like a
(14:14):
deeper understanding of thetopic and it was, it's really
well.
It was saddened to see all this, but it would.
Yeah, I was just appreciativeof, like now I know of this
stuff.
Right, you're not taught thisstuff in schools, you're not
taught doctrine of discovery,but it was.
(14:37):
It was really I okay, that'swhat it was.
The conference is veryeye-opening for me, that's
awesome.
Speaker 3 (14:45):
Has it changed the way you perceive the world in
general, or in being an American, or your identity?
And what you thought was thehistory.
Speaker 5 (14:54):
Yeah, so yeah, definitely the history right,
but I think I have a greaterappreciation for different
cultures.
I think that's what it gave me,and you know, because when
you're taught just one thing,you don't see the other side.
(15:15):
And so, yeah, it's very.
The conference is eye-openingand allowed me to appreciate the
other sides.
Speaker 2 (15:28):
Yeah, I mean you mentioned, Jason, that it's very
sad, it's a traumatic historyand that we're dealing a lot
with a lot of trauma here, butthen also it's a unifying issue.
You know, it's a way that wecan kind of work collaboratively
.
That's one of the themes thatwe hope to bring out, I hope.
(15:48):
Did you see that in theconference at all?
Speaker 5 (15:53):
Yeah, yeah, it was cool to see so many different
people Like.
It was like a working.
You know the conference wascollaborative, right?
It was everyone working towardsone goal, right?
Or talking about the doctrineof discovery, which is really
cool to see so many differentperspectives and people from
(16:15):
different backgrounds comingtogether.
Speaker 3 (16:18):
The bottom line is all your ancestors in the past
were indigenous at one point, sothere has to be some element
that was an awakening in yourown being and understanding of
your own lineage.
Maybe this is why you have moreunderstanding and interest now
in other cultures, because yourancient cultures were also wiped
(16:42):
out with this kind ofauthoritarian rule.
Speaker 2 (16:46):
We hear that a lot from Putt and Shoney.
You know, leaders, or Boyani asthey're called, that you know.
It's just that the age ofdiscovery has hit them most
recently.
Where you know, the history ofEurope is sort of littered with
these stories of indigenouspeoples being overrun, you know,
(17:12):
at various moments, and so theyalways are encouraging even
members of our board, in factencouraging all of us to really
investigate our own genealogies.
You know, I mean, it is a thingnow.
You know, that people areinterested in their backgrounds,
their genealogical backgrounds,and I'm one of those.
But you know, there's a reasonfor that too.
(17:35):
I mean, I think people arelooking for something.
You know, it's a moreorientation.
Speaker 3 (17:41):
So when land identifies who you are in
indigenous cultures, it's hardto identify when that
relationship with the naturalworld has been stripped from you
, from your ancestors.
So there is this longing ofdetachment, because that's in
effect where we receive life,and it's regenerative and it's
(18:04):
exciting and ever-changing right.
Speaker 4 (18:07):
Yeah, I will say, sandy, I so appreciated your
words about the connection toland and the indigenous
connection to land.
I think it was on the openingnight of the conference.
Because one of the mostimpactful for me days of the
(18:30):
class is when we talk about theway that the Spanish sort of
theologically justified theirconquest of indigenous peoples
based on their, you know,accusing essentially the
indigenous peoples of having theincorrect relationship to the
land or misunderstanding therelationship which opened them
up to demonic possession and soforth, and that we read an essay
(18:54):
by Willie Jennings who talksabout Jose de Acosta, the priest
who you know was surveying theland and the people for the
Spanish crown, and it's adifficult essay for students to
read, we spend a bit of timeunpacking it.
(19:14):
But the idea that even the whitestudents in the class have, at
some point in their history,some indigenous ancestors who
had land, that's a really, Ithink, useful way of framing
that conversation, because I dohave.
(19:35):
I regularly have white studentswho will say to me, right sort
of in confidence, as a whiteprofessor, you know, I don't
know how I'm supposed toidentify with this or think
about this.
You know, they, you know, and Ithink that.
That's a really helpful way offraming for that.
Yeah, that's really important.
Speaker 2 (19:55):
Yeah, yeah, I think that's important, joel, because
I think this investigationalways drives us back to primary
sources, or primary sources,which is a real experience for
students as well.
I mean, you know, I read someof those, you know, like the
Columbus diaries or some ofthese papal bulls or things like
that.
You go through them in classand it's like it's like
(20:18):
revelatory, you know, you knowso.
So we don't.
You know, it's not biblicalexegesis, but it is, you know.
It is a sort of you know,interpretation of texts that are
primary in a different kind ofway.
But, chris, I wanted to giveyou a chance to jump in here to
(20:39):
talk about your experience atthe conference and also how it
might have impacted you, likegoing forward.
Speaker 6 (20:49):
Yes, well, I actually had some experience with some
of this between previously,before the degree I was working
on.
That brought me into ProfessorHarrison's class.
I was working on ananthropology degree and so I've
(21:11):
been exposed to some of the waysthat anthropology had been used
as a tool of oppression.
Because anthropology they'revery open At least most of the
disciplines within anthropologyare very open about this was our
past being used to oppress theminorities.
(21:34):
But now we're looking, we'retrying to look at things through
their lens, while also lookingfrom the outside.
So while I never interacteddirectly with the doctrine of
discovery itself, I've beenaround and I've known through my
(21:55):
experiences, I've seen thehistory of what's happened and
what the doctrine of discoverydid.
So for me a lot of theconference was actually putting
into life of.
You know, it was a bit.
It was a bit like working on apuzzle have all the pieces.
(22:16):
Then I went to the conferenceand somebody finally showed me
what the picture was supposed tolook like.
You know, here's the, here'sthe top of the box.
Okay, now I see how all thesepieces come together, whereas
before it was more like oh yeah,I know about the oppression of
Native Americans.
(22:36):
I know how they were treated andhow indigenous cultures were
treated by most of theconquering groups, but now it
was, oh, this was thejustification given Beyond.
Just here, let's pour a bunchof sand into this skull and see
how much that skull can hold,and we're going to completely
(22:59):
hide the fact that the skullwith the more amount actually
came from a minority.
This is the white skull.
This is the black skull becausethat can't be right.
Speaker 2 (23:11):
That can't be right, right yeah.
Speaker 6 (23:13):
Exactly so.
For me, the conference was verymuch so putting everything into
life and kind of giving me alittle bit more perspective on
things.
Yeah, which I reallyappreciated as a student of
culture, as a student of history, being able to see where things
(23:36):
fit on the other side of thelens of the historical texts.
Speaker 2 (23:43):
Yeah, yeah, I mean I think the university I don't
know about down in Virginia,your place, but we divide up
academic study of religion andthe humanities, and anthropology
and social science, evennatural sciences, right.
So here we have an indictmentreally across thought knowledge
(24:06):
systems in a way, because for meI think religion gets more at
the root of this issue, becauseit supplies the worldview and,
as you said, risk ofjustification for these
conquerors who, after all, theyleave home and then set up shop
(24:32):
somewhere else and do theseatrocious things to people.
And what's driving all that?
What could make a person dothat?
Right, it just seems absurd intoday's world, but in a way it's
still operative.
So I think there are differentways of coming at this, from
(24:53):
different points of view.
For me, religion seems to get alittle deeper.
You get us deeper into thequagmire, you know.
So I appreciate you.
You know mixing it up.
Speaker 3 (25:06):
And at the same time of discovery, there are these
great thinkers right who areenvisioning a new world.
So when we're creating theUnited States, there's two
forces here going kind of headto head against one another the
explorers, the what landspeculators, and then you have
the great thinkers of theEnlightenment era.
(25:28):
And if you dig into that, whatignited that school of thought
and many writers today aresaying it, was this involvement
over hundreds of years ofinteractions with the indigenous
people from the Americas,because they lived in these true
democracies that were nothierarchical.
(25:51):
So you have these idealizedvisions of creating this new
world and then you have thesegreedy speculators who just want
to take the land as a resource.
And then you have those back tothe just the founding right.
You know, when the British werestill in power and during that
(26:11):
switch over to the Americanists,they were using, you know, the
wisdom of the hood and the showme talking about the great law
of peace where people lived inequity and freedom and the great
and peace, and these were notconcepts readily discussed in
Europe.
So this, this issued for thenew possibility of living with
(26:34):
one another in this world.
But we had that.
That iconography, by the waywas incorporated into
presidential seal and if youdelve into that history will
find references to that livingin peace and the message of the
hood and the show me.
And years later that thefashion of the loose salini Well
(26:55):
, this is before mostly, but ofRome, because he took that
emblem from Rome, the RomanEmpire and Empire building
authority, authoritarianism thaticonography started being
introduced after they were usingthis other bundle of arrows
that the show me talked aboutrepresenting peace.
So so much was in conflict inthose early years and then, of
(27:19):
course, 1823, the doctrinediscoveries and coded into
American property.
So people need to know what wasgoing on then, and you know you
have choices to make, and are wegoing to continue?
Speaker 2 (27:33):
I don't know how close you are to Washington DC,
but it's a fascinating look atjust the art iconography in the,
in the, in the nation's capital, you know.
I mean you look at the kind offigures, the authoritative
figures, you know, columbus, ofcourse, is there All through the
(27:57):
capital building.
But then on the flip side, thenyou go down to the screen court
chambers that are underneaththe Senate, the original screen
court chambers, and there arecord corn, cob columns that are
supporting just.
They've been just recentlyrestored in the last 30 years.
(28:19):
This is a, this is a hearkeningback to, you know, when the
capital was first constructed inthe early 1800s, before Johnson
, and it's a, it's a nod to thehood and a shone influence.
And then you know tobacco leaflentils, of course you know that
(28:41):
support that are in thebasement of the capital
supporting that, that dome, youknow.
So actually, you know we'reintegrating a lot of those
images in the scant of centerright now I don't know if you
got to see the scant of center.
that was one of my questions.
Were you here early enough tobe able to go to the scant of
center?
Speaker 4 (29:03):
I think Jason, did you take that tour.
Speaker 5 (29:06):
Yeah, I did.
Yeah, okay, it's really coolyeah.
Speaker 2 (29:12):
What did you like about it?
I mean, we're, you know we were, we were instrumental in
creating that space, like 10years ago, more than 10 years
ago now, but but I'd appreciate,you know, your comments about
that.
Speaker 5 (29:28):
Yeah.
So I mean again, like justgoing to that, I got a deeper
understanding of the story ofoppression and I didn't realize
how, like the magnitude of theoppression war, and it was yeah,
(29:48):
I really loved how, as youcould walk through like well, I
didn't like it but no, so youwalk through, you know the story
continued and how it's a path,it was yeah, it was very, it was
very powerful.
Speaker 2 (30:03):
And then the fact that Haudenosaunee are still
here.
I mean you're eating their foodand you know you're interacting
with them, you know.
I mean, I think that's whatwe're, that's kind of what we're
going through.
Speaker 3 (30:16):
There's still possibilities in the world you
know they're still here.
We're still here, yeah.
Speaker 1 (30:27):
Do you need help catching up on today's topic or
do you want to learn more aboutthe resources mentioned?
If so, please check our websiteat
podcastdoctrineofdiscoveryorgfor more information and, if you
like this episode, review it onApple, Spotify or wherever you
listen to podcasts.
And now back to theconversation.
Speaker 2 (30:48):
Your classes, joel, how does, how do, how do?
How has the conference?
Will the conference sort ofchange your ideas about your
curriculum for your class?
I mean, you said you startedwith some of these earlier texts
, but one of the things we'rehoping to accomplish, we created
(31:09):
this website.
Actually, adam has created thewebsite and we're sort of
loading it up with othermaterials that can.
That might be of help.
I'm wondering if that's ofinterest to you.
Speaker 4 (31:23):
Oh, absolutely, yeah, I'm.
I am always trying to point mystudents to as many free
resources as possible.
You know, I think that for alot of undergraduates they're
they're kind of go to is just tostart with Google and go from
there, and so you know I'll getpapers that have a lot of.
(31:47):
You know we'll cite a lot oflike journalism or something
like that.
But I really try to encouragethem to, you know, use the
sources.
I mean, I try to set up theclass so that they don't have to
do any outside research if theydon't want to.
And you know they can use allthe reading from my class.
But I am in court, you know,wanting to incorporate this
semester more about the doctrineof discovery specifically.
(32:13):
As you know, we talk about,like the doom diverse table bowl
and when these are the songgray laws in Spain and some of
these earlier kind of iterationsof justifications for
persecution of non white, nonChristian, non European peoples.
(32:34):
And I think that the doctrineof discoveries, you know,
certainly a natural, you knowone, one kind of bridging point
between what's going on incolonial, you know Europe to
January 6.
Right, I think, I think thatthat's a good.
(32:54):
Yeah, so I'm definitely goingto be.
That's one way that theconference certainly changed the
syllabus is to add in more ofthat specific discussion of what
the doctrine of discovery didin the US, because I mean,
they're like, like you werementioning, you know, even with
things is sort of like, you know, fine grained in my nude as as
(33:19):
the symbolism of the country andhow all these little details
come from these other places.
It, you know, it can beoverwhelming, I think, for
students to try to wrap theirtheir heads around all of this.
But yeah, I think thatconference gave me some, some
(33:41):
good tools for for thinkingabout how to kind of guide them
even more, you know, bridge thatgap between the colonial
entanglement of race andreligion.
And then what's happening onJanuary 6.
Speaker 2 (33:55):
Right.
Speaker 4 (33:56):
I mean that's what.
Speaker 2 (33:56):
that's what I was interested in.
How do we, how do we connectthose dots right?
How do you connect, like youknow, 500 year olds, you know
racist theology essentially withwhat's going on now in terms of
, like, christian nationalism?
You know, I mean, I mean, I seeit, I see it everywhere.
But you know, you know how doyou do that.
(34:18):
I'm just you know, just curious.
Speaker 4 (34:21):
Right, Well, so I mean, one of the things that I
do is we focus a lot on thelanguage of demons in this class
Are evil, evil.
Speaker 2 (34:33):
I suppose, or yeah, I mean.
Speaker 4 (34:34):
Well, so the ways that in American religious
history, you know, the othersright, those who are, you know,
part of, are the worldly or thenon Christian, the, the
unregenerate, are passed asdemonic at some level or sort,
(34:55):
or agents of the satanic orsomething like that.
How the culture wars get, youknow, throughout the 20th
century, get touched in thoseterms, and then when you go back
in time to the colonial period,you see similar language about
the demonic right, how theindigenous peoples, physical
bodies, are, you know, porousand sort of susceptible to
(35:18):
demonic possession, whereas the,you know, conquistadors,
because of Christ, they can't be, you know, possessed by the
devil, you know.
And so we, we talk about thekind of analogously, how that
language is similar and the ideathat I mean, if you truly
believe that your opponent is anagent of the devil, is, you
(35:42):
know, possessed by demons or isa demon a demon themselves, then
that gives you some moreinsight into the violence I
think of why people are, youknow, willing to sort of take up
the cause of January 6, youknow, from that one perspective.
So that's one of the ways thatwe, that we connect that.
Speaker 2 (36:06):
Wow, and that language is picked up by the
January January 6 people, thatis.
That are some of the groups,some of the religious
orientations of those right.
Speaker 4 (36:16):
Well, you have, for example, the Q and on conspiracy
theory, you know which you know, which believes, literally,
that the members of theDemocratic Party are Satan
worshiping.
Pedophiles, right, right, whoare you know?
and there's various iterationsof that, where you know, in some
(36:37):
cases, the, you know, opponentsof just in general, are demonic
forces or demons themselves orsomething like that, and it gets
very convoluted very quickly.
But you do see that thatlanguage.
You also see the language ofchosenness.
I mean there's some fantasticvideo resources from that day on
(37:00):
the uncivil religion site thatwill show, you know choirs of
Trump supporters.
You know singing we're thechosen of the Lord.
You know chosen generation.
You know that, that kind ofthing.
So this idea also of chosenness,that you will be protected from
the demonic forces because Godhas chosen your side for victory
(37:23):
, which is also similar to thelanguage that Jose de Acosta
uses right in his theologicaljustification of the conquest
way God has commissioned theChristians right to go to the
Isaiah, which that's the way theword that he uses to describe
the new world, right, the thatnobody would go to the quote
(37:47):
unquote new world if God had notput these resources there for,
as a kind of reward, right for.
And so there's this also thisidea that God has commissioned
the Spanish to go there andwrite the relationship to the
land that you know and use theseuntapped resources that are,
that are there that God hascommissioned them to use.
(38:09):
So there's, there's somesimilar language there to with
with this language of chosenness, yeah, yeah, it's, a
reminiscing.
Speaker 3 (38:20):
The ashes of corn.
Speaker 2 (38:22):
Yeah, you want me to tell them.
Oh, okay, so, so you know, Ihave actually five ancestors
that crossed on the Mayflower,so now, now, three of them
didn't last through the firstwinter, but so to survive, but,
(38:45):
but you know this.
So, so part of accounting forfor our history here in the
Americas, 500 or 400 year oldhistory, is looking at these
sites, right, one of the sitesthat we visited as a family and
remember Sandy and our kids areholding the show.
So one of the sites we visited,a cake pod was called corn hill
(39:09):
, which is a giant X really inthe middle of the parking lot,
and they're where the pilgrimslanded they were literally
starving in November of 1620.
And these are my ancestors,right, they sit upon this little
cache of corn that is is buriedthere and they, they in the, in
(39:35):
the plaque that's nearby, theythank God, or, without finding
that corn, they would surelyhave perished, something like
that right in the fact stole thecorn.
I call it kind of like the firsttheft, you know, because not
(39:55):
because they took the corn, butbecause they didn't thank the
right people right, or eventhank the people actually gave
them the corn.
They weren't appreciative ofmore like this, you know, rather
thanking this divineintervention for something you
know that that really had verylittle to do with it.
I mean in a way so so it's likeyou know there are these, there
(40:18):
are these other stories,personal stories that Sandy and
I are working on right now, thatthat that can help fill in some
of those details, you know.
But yeah, here I hear some ofthe resonance of like piece
pizza gate, for example, orother kind of thing going on.
You know, but, chris, chris, Iwonder if you have, if you have
(40:42):
some some sense of how thosedots are connected.
You know those 500 year olddots are connected after taking
Joel's course.
You know, like between you,know this kind of 500 year old
crazy religion talk, which isstill with us, by the way.
You know but but and and howhow it is changed and also
(41:06):
remain the same.
Speaker 6 (41:10):
Yes, I actually have the unfortunate honor, suppose
dishonor, maybe.
The profession that I've beenin for most of my adult life is
actually rather, at least downhere in the South, it's rather
(41:31):
infested with Christiannationalist groups so I've
gotten to see kind of from theinside.
I was raised without Christiannationalism and so I'd always
aired on the side, away from it,shy away from it.
But I got into a professionwhere it was very prevalent and
(41:52):
I've gotten to see a lot of theshifting.
It's no longer necessarilyalways calling out things like
demonic nature.
I mean, obviously there's stillthat major dot when you have
QAnon and Pizza Gain and allthat, but there's also
(42:15):
redirecting towards what can beconsidered more common enemies
and more secular enemies, suchas pedophilia, which is a major
cry from these Christiannationalists to try and
discredit the LGBTQ.
Plus.
They try and discreditimmigrants.
(42:36):
Anyone they don't disagree withcan potentially become either
demonic for the hardcore sex orpedophilic in the sex.
That want to be almost moresecular.
Speaker 2 (42:56):
And so you see it as a kind of range of positions, of
groups, orientations that runfrom explicitly religious to
more secular?
Is that what you're saying?
Speaker 6 (43:10):
I don't necessarily see it being more secular, but I
do see a range where it'sthey're trying to demonize in a
more secular way becausenecessarily I mean the satanic
panic of the 70s and 80s.
Going after things like Dungeonsand Dragons and rock music
(43:34):
didn't work for them.
So instead of calling out satanand demons in the modern era,
it's that there's still thathardcore sex that thinks that
will shake people out of theirrevelry for these groups.
But then there's the sex thatrealize and try to use a more
(44:00):
secular enemy.
Whereas the hardcore religiousgroups are using their religious
enemy of satan, of the devil ofdemons, these almost more
tactical groups that are stillreligious and still potentially
(44:21):
in their hearts feel that way,are instead using terminology of
society's demons, of thepedophile, of the rapist, of the
robber, and they're using thatto frame their enemies in a
negative light as well.
And it just shows a little bitmore of the not necessarily like
(44:46):
we can't fight them, so wemight join them, but we still
want to fight these groups, sowe can't fight that nobody
believes in demons and thatdemons aren't going to freak
everybody in the country outanymore.
So we'll join that and callthem something that everyone can
still agree is bad.
Speaker 4 (45:06):
Right, right, I think that there's also a common
thread, like, regardless ofwhether a group is using the
kind of a blanket term likepedophile or demonic, in that
they there's sort of viewing theone group of people as like a
complete existential threat.
Right, so it's not simply thatyou know these people are
(45:28):
immoral, but it's that theythreaten the very fabric of
existence.
Right, this is a cosmic, it'sstill a cosmic battle, I think,
for them on on on some level,which makes it part, still part
of, I think, the culture, warlogic throughout, especially
(45:50):
20th century American religioushistory.
And again, when you, whenyou're, when you see your
opponent as this, you know pureexistential threat, that that
makes this kind of reactionarypolitics all the more dangerous,
(46:10):
because then disagreements arenot simply political
disagreements or, you know,social disagreements or
something like that, but theyare truly viewed as threats like
what matters of life and death,I think, to a lot of people.
And that's it's, it can, it canbe scary, I think.
Speaker 3 (46:29):
Well, don't we know it?
Yeah, of course I think it'sreferred to as savage Indians.
You know, we repurposed a peacecenter where they had
beforehand talked about theJesuits coming in the 17th
century, and a local historicalassociation built a fort that
was 200 years off the mark sothey could promote the cowboy
(46:49):
and Indian theme, built in 19thcentury for the family to get
down in the 70s.
But you know, from 1933 onwardeverybody thought the savage
Indian was right here among thehood and the shoni.
So, much alive in the world.
Speaker 2 (47:08):
And I appreciate also what you're saying Christian,
because you know in many waysthat's in all of us, you know
that legacy of Christiannationalism you know.
I mean I think I think it'skind of in the in the water by
now because you know so many ofour, our students, grad students
(47:32):
in fact, in in the academicstudy really in various ways,
are kind of recovering fromtheir traumatic upbringings in,
you know, fundamentalistChristian groups.
You know, to some degree thatwas my experience, I mean.
You know it wasn't, it wasn'tas intense as some of my
(47:55):
students.
I'm thinking actually of Adam,who's a producer here, who's
who's got his PhD from ourdepartment and also had to work
very hard to to, you know, dealwith his own demons, if I could
say that you know from his, fromhis upbringing.
Another transgender student inour department, jess, she's
(48:23):
grappling with this traumaticlegacy, having grown up in the
South as well.
It's very personal in a way,but I think this work in the
Dockerman Discovery can help usall sort of organize and maybe
even heal.
We're talking to another.
Another podcaster actually runsa podcast called divorcing
(48:47):
religion out of BC Vancouver andshe and her husband actually
came to the conference and theirtherapists that are working in
this space.
You know, so now I wanted to.
So I do appreciate that thatthe personal dynamics of how
(49:08):
this this, this work might behelpful as well.
Speaker 3 (49:14):
Jason, has this impacted the way that you just
talk with your friends or familywhen you brought this knowledge
into any of those sorts ofconversations?
Speaker 5 (49:25):
Definitely with my family.
I've discussed this topic and,you know, tried to share what I
learned at the conference withthem and, yeah, yeah, I think, I
think I've been successful withthat.
Speaker 3 (49:40):
Initially, though, they're in shock.
Right, that's what I have found.
That can't even believe it.
You know real yeah.
Speaker 2 (49:50):
Yeah, my dad's 95 and he still has to go with what I
do.
I mean I love you, dad, but wow.
Speaker 3 (50:05):
That's what he's done .
Speaker 2 (50:06):
I hope he doesn't listen to this.
He won't.
Speaker 3 (50:08):
I'm absolutely convinced.
Speaker 2 (50:15):
So one of the questions that you actually
brought up for me, joel, and oneof the questions we consular
turning over in this work, islike when does the doctrine of
discovery start?
You know, I mean it's, you know, is it mid 15th century?
Well, yes, that's kind of it,is it?
Is it the crusades?
Because so much of the, so muchof the spirit of, and you see
(50:39):
that today it's still operative,you know, is it the 11th
century?
You know, I mean, and then youcan make an argument, I think is
the foundation of the Romanchurch.
You know, in the fourth century.
I mean it's, you know, I thinkwe should be open to that kind
of investigation.
(51:01):
You know of thinking about the,you know.
So now we're talking about what1500 years or more that that
were that were kind of grapplingwith these questions.
I mean, you know, james Carrollwrote this book, constantine
Sword, which really places theorigins of anti Semitism,
(51:21):
something that I listened toabout on the radio just today.
You know, you know, and theorigins of that are in the in
the fourth century Roman churchand, you know, fashioning the
Bible in certain kinds of ways.
So I mean you know, you know itcan get too expensive, but then
(51:42):
on the other hand it does seemrelevant, you know, not to say
you should bring this into yourclass, but you know, you know
because you kind of want to keepit focused on the American
issue.
But but you know there arethese other facets of the
problem that I see could couldeasily motivate you know,
(52:04):
further kind of graduate work,things like that.
Speaker 3 (52:08):
There are indigenous cities here that rivaled any
city in Europe, but there wereno police forces or prisons.
You know, they lived freely andwith equity with one another
and with the natural world, sofor 10,000 years, you know.
So what was so different here?
How?
Why was it so different?
Speaker 1 (52:28):
here than in.
Speaker 3 (52:28):
Europe Right and you should evaluate this and talk
about it Right?
Speaker 2 (52:34):
Yeah Well, I think this has been a great
conversation.
I really appreciate all of youI it is our hope that we can
continue this relationship withwith your spot, you know, with
Virginia, with your, with yourstudents, and even we have plans
(52:59):
on trying to make some of yourpapers those of you who want to
make your papers sort of publicthrough our website or through
other sorts of means.
So I really appreciate all ofyou for coming on today and and
I hope we can continue thisconversation.
Speaker 3 (53:21):
Thank you, hope we meet again.
Thank you, thank you.
Speaker 1 (53:28):
The producers of this podcast were Adam DJ Brett and
Jordan Lawn Cologne.
Our intro and outro is socialdancing music by Oris Edwards
and Regis Cook.
This podcast is funded incollaboration with the Henry
Luce Foundation, SyracuseUniversity and Hendrix Chapel
and the Indigenous ValuesInitiative.
If you liked this episode,please check out our website and
(53:50):
make sure to subscribe.
Popular Podcasts
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
24/7 News: The Latest
The latest news in 4 minutes updated every hour, every day.
Therapy Gecko
An unlicensed lizard psychologist travels the universe talking to strangers about absolutely nothing. TO CALL THE GECKO: follow me on https://www.twitch.tv/lyleforever to get a notification for when I am taking calls. I am usually live Mondays, Wednesdays, and Fridays but lately a lot of other times too. I am a gecko.