This week on the podcast, we have Professor Tink Tinker, a luminary in Native American Studies. In this episode, he tells of the heart-wrenching legacy of Christian colonization on Indigenous communities. Our conversation probes deep into the cultural chasm between the collective ethos of American Indian traditions and the individualistic dogma of Christian salvation. As we unravel the tapestry of Native American identities erased by historical forces, we also confront the ongoing struggle to reclaim and honor the suppressed narratives both in America and the remnants of indigenous Europe.
Venture into the realm of representation with us, where Hollywood's glitz often eclipses the true stories of Native peoples. We critique the portrayal of the Osage in recent cinematic adaptations, where the pain of Indigenous experiences vies with the allure of star-studded performances. Shining a light on the experiences of Indigenous academics like Tinker, we reflect on the pivotal role community engagement and historical acknowledgment play in shaping a more honest academic discourse, particularly in the commemoration of tragedies such as the Sand Creek Massacre.
As we draw this powerful dialogue to a close, we discuss the powerful transformation of the Living Waters Indian Episcopal Mission into Four Winds—a testament to cultural resilience and revival. This also serves as an example of how churches can participate in #landback. We conclude by discussing the atrocities committed under the Doctrine of Discovery and the palpable hauntings of Iliff’s history, revealing the imperative for institutions to confront and address past transgressions. The pursuit of restitution and healing is a profound thread that weaves through the episode, reminding us of the enduring and dynamic work that lies ahead for Indigenous academics and activists. Join us in embracing these narratives of remembrance and the vital recognition of their ongoing journey.
View the transcript and show notes at podcast.doctrineofdiscovery.org. Learn more about the Doctrine of Discovery on our site DoctrineofDiscovery.org.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:07):
Hello and welcome to the Mapping the Doctrine of
Discovery podcast.
The producers of this podcastwould like to acknowledge with
respect the Onondaga Nationfirekeepers of the Haudenosaunee
, the indigenous peoples onwhose ancestral lands Syracuse
University now stands, and nowintroducing your hosts, phil
(00:27):
Arnold and Sandy Bigtree.
Speaker 2 (00:32):
Welcome back everyone to Mapping the Doctrine of
Discovery.
My name is Phil Arnold.
I'm faculty in the ReligionDepartment at Syracuse
University, poor faculty inNative American Indigenous
Studies and the foundingdirector of the Scano Great Law
Peace Center.
Speaker 3 (00:49):
And I'm Sandy Bigtree , a citizen of the Mohawk Nation
at Akwesasne.
I'm on the collaborative of theIndigenous Values Initiative
and the Scano Great Law PeaceCenter.
Speaker 2 (01:02):
And we're brought to you today by the Henry Luce
Foundation, who are supportingthese podcasts and this work in
the Doctrine of Discovery.
Really appreciate the HenryLuce Foundation.
Today we're blessed really tohave an old friend with us, old
(01:28):
friend with us, professor TinkTinker, who has been a stalwart
in Native American issues fordecades and decades and one of
the primary features of his workhas always been on the excesses
of Christianity among NativeAmerican peoples.
So, tink, thanks for coming andI'll let you introduce yourself
(01:50):
to our audience.
Speaker 4 (01:52):
Always good to be with both of you, sandy and Phil
Bindi.
W'jaju tsele gwamato wonton.
I'm a citizen of the OsageNation and belong to the Eagle
Clan.
That's why I position myselfwhenever I speak, and people
need to know who I am in orderto put what I have to say in
(02:18):
context.
I'm also the emeritus professorof American Indian Studies at
Isle of School of Theology, aChristian institution with
interreligious interests, ofcourse, a fairly liberal school.
But even as a liberal school,they had to figure out whether
(02:42):
to hang on to me when Irenounced Christianity after I
wrote Missionary Conquest,american Indians and the
genocide of the gospel.
Speaker 2 (02:59):
And that was about 30 years ago, something like that.
Speaker 4 (03:02):
Exactly 31 years ago.
Wow, great book, that was about30 years ago.
Something like that Exactly 31years ago yeah.
Wow, great book 1993.
But once I wrote that book Iknew I could no longer profess
that Christian myth.
It no longer hung together forme.
Together for me, there were somany worldview differences
(03:31):
pulling Indians and whiteChristians in different
directions.
Christianity is first andforemost, at least if you
believe Martin Luther, about thesalvation of the individual
soul, justification by faith,right, right For American Indian
people.
It's never about me, it'salways about the community,
(03:57):
about the whole, and that's thefirst big tension that you have
to move beyond in order to makethat Christian confession that
the colonizer and all themissionariesaries I talk about,
four of them in missionaryconquest, all of them really
(04:33):
good at what they did, and whatthey did more than anything else
was function to destroyAmerican Indians' grasp on their
own worldview and replace itwith a Christian worldview.
As one commissioner of AmericanIndian affairs said in the
(05:00):
middle of the 19th century, wemust teach Indians to say mine
instead of ours, wow, me insteadof us, I instead of we.
That says it all in a nutshell.
So that's who I am.
Speaker 2 (05:23):
Wonderful.
So that's who I am Wonderful,and you know, of course, when we
talk about the community,talking about all the natural
world, right, all of the nonother than human beings as well
as human beings in our community, yes and no my caveat would be
(05:45):
we have no word for nature inIyawashaji.
Speaker 4 (05:55):
That's one of those nominal abstractions that works
for white people like that buthas no meaning in an Indian
world, Because all people arerelated to me.
All people has to be inclusiveof, as you said, other than just
human beings.
Speaker 3 (06:10):
It was amazing with how little time it took the
Jesuits and the earlymissionaries to change the
orientation of Native people andthe way they were thinking, and
they used such brutal force toaccomplish that.
And so they knew what would beeffective and, because it must
(06:31):
have played out in Europe, theymust have been doing this to all
the Indigenous people in Europeas well, because everyone has
Indigenous ancestors at somepoint.
But when they came here, theyknew exactly what they were
doing and exactly whom to target.
Speaker 4 (06:48):
I suspect that's right, Sandy.
We don't know, of course,because the Christians did such
a great job of erasingindigenous people in Europe.
Speaker 3 (06:58):
I mean, they're still there, Sammy's in the way north
, and we have pockets of peopletrying to reclaim their pagan
selves in the rest of Europeespecially in England say they
(07:23):
have such an interest in NativeAmerican history and being
indigenous that they holdpowwows all over Europe, you
know, and they want to reclaim,in Germany and Lithuania and
Russia even, and they've losttheir own connection to their
own heritage.
(07:43):
And they've lost their ownconnection to their own heritage
and they're just, you know,having this need to try to
reclaim something in their DNA.
Speaker 2 (07:50):
I think yeah, we went to something like that.
In Carl My's hometown there wasa big Native American festival.
We had to check it out.
You know, it was really thestrangest experience.
Speaker 3 (08:05):
It was so strange.
I've been there, have you,isn't that something?
Speaker 2 (08:13):
It's an enthusiasm that I don't know really what to
make of it.
You know it's an enthusiasm fordressing up as Native people,
but then they also have.
They bring Native people over.
We know some Haudenosauneedancers that had come over there
.
Speaker 3 (08:31):
Yeah, but they're managed In previous years.
They're managed.
They can only perform, you know, in a certain location, but the
main show is reserved for theGermans who dress up Right Like
Plains Indians.
It's just the most bizarrething I took lots of pictures.
Speaker 4 (08:49):
One of my mentors was Joe Eagle Elk.
She chanted Lakota from Rosebud.
Joe went over to a tree insouthwest Germany where there
was a group of Indian hobbyistswho were doing exactly that, and
(09:12):
they have a village there thatthey occupy in the summer and
all of these German familiestake their summer vacation and
if they don't come to the US tovisit reservations, they go to
this Indian village and theyspend their one month of
vacation living like PlainsIndians.
Speaker 3 (09:37):
Isn't that?
Speaker 4 (09:37):
something Joanne had him do some talking about his
people when he was there and hecame back he said Tink, they do
better beadwork than we do.
Speaker 3 (09:54):
You know academics will write about.
You know the histories ofNative Americans and many times
there will be a critique likeyou shouldn't romanticize about
these ancient cultures.
And it would always kind of beoffensive to me because, being
Haudenosaunee, I know theseancient traditions are still
alive today and they have greatinfluence.
(10:15):
The way we are being humanbeings in the world to Europe
and saw what they're doing overthere and pretending to be
Indian, then it opened up awhole new understanding.
This romanticization of NativeAmericans really is that
Reclaiming them.
Speaker 4 (10:39):
But of course that interdiction don't romanticize
yourself is another way oferasing us.
It's to tell us you don'treally believe that, do you?
That's gone now.
Just let it go, because erasureis still part and parcel of the
(11:01):
agenda of the colonizerdiscovery crowd.
Speaker 2 (11:08):
Yeah, absolutely.
I mean I hadn't really thoughtI'd ask you about this, but
we've been through the Hollywoodaward season and one of the
major films that's been outthere deals with your folks
Killers of the Flower Moon andI've never asked you about it,
(11:30):
but I mean I have differentfeelings about it.
I guess I'd like to get yourtake on it.
I mean, I thought it was a goodfilm in many ways.
We've talked to other peoplewho who thought the book was
better, actually because itpointed out a kind of structural
(11:53):
racism rather than a kind ofinterpersonal problem of, you
know, a racist issue within afamily.
But but that story is now outthere, which is something I
guess.
But you know, I'd like to getyour take on that film.
Speaker 4 (12:14):
First of all, I was not a fan of the book.
Speaker 2 (12:18):
Why is that?
Speaker 4 (12:19):
I was a harsh critic of the book.
Neither the book nor the movieis really about the Osage.
The book was an FBI thriller.
It's about Tom White, the FBIagent who is heroized in the
book, and Osages are bit playersin the drama that unfolds in
(12:48):
the book.
Speaker 2 (12:50):
Also the film.
Speaker 4 (12:52):
I thought that Scorsese did a better job in
that he reduced the role of TomWhite.
Yeah, he made him a minorcharacter, but important
character.
But the movie is about your twomain stars, dicaprio and De Niro
right and not about the oldsages right people were talking
(13:18):
up Lily Gladstone's role asMolly and I thought she was
magnificent, but they could havedone so much more with Molly.
Yeah, role as Molly, and Ithought she was magnificent, but
they could have done so muchmore with Molly.
Yeah, the last half of the filmshe's comatose in most of the
scenes she's in.
Speaker 2 (13:36):
Yeah, yeah, true enough.
Speaker 4 (13:39):
And while Burkhart was trying to kill her, he was
poisoning her.
You Burkhardt was trying tokill her, he was poisoning her.
You still could have done muchmore than Scorsese did with that
.
And in order let's be honest,in order for Hollywood to
produce a film about Osagesthat's going to be about Osages,
(13:59):
you've got to have an Osagemake the movie, and there's no
money for that.
Speaker 2 (14:07):
Yeah, no, it's got to have star power.
Wow, and I think I don't know,I don't know that world at all,
but I do think that, given thatshe did not win the Academy
Award for Best Actress, and youknow, my feeling was that, you
(14:32):
know, america still can't dealwith its history, you know it
still can't.
I mean, that film wascompletely sort of shut out of
the Oscar serum.
Speaker 4 (14:43):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (14:43):
You know, and it's like, yeah, we'll celebrate
these fantastical films and youknow things like that, but that
one was a little too real forpeople.
Speaker 4 (14:56):
Yeah, it wasn't make-believe enough.
Speaker 2 (14:58):
Right.
Speaker 4 (15:01):
Right.
Speaker 2 (15:02):
Yeah, yeah Well.
Speaker 4 (15:04):
I think that's true, right, yeah, I think that's true
, and I think Vine hit it half acentury ago when he said it's
about the land, and whiteAmericans cannot let go of the
fact that their possession ofIndian land is still
(15:24):
questionable.
Speaker 2 (15:26):
At best.
I mean, it's clear from all thelegal cases that we've been
studying in this project that welive on unceded land from coast
to coast and it's a dilemmathat we'll say it's just a
dilemma, it's just likesomething that Americans just
(15:49):
cannot grapple with and it'sreally the heart of the doctrine
of discovery issue that we'retrying to.
Speaker 4 (15:58):
Let's not remind people of that, they just would
rather sweep it under the carpet.
Speaker 2 (16:05):
Exactly, exactly.
Not just the United States, ofcourse.
We're talking about lots ofcolonial outposts around the
world.
Speaker 4 (16:13):
Australia, new, zealand, canada.
Those are the big four, alongwith the US.
Speaker 2 (16:21):
Yeah, I just don't think so.
I don't know.
So I don't know.
I don't know if that film markssome kind of a small awakening.
There are more nativefilmmakers now.
We know some of those people.
They're making inroads.
There are other stories thatare emerging.
(16:44):
So I don't know if it marks achange or if it's just a fad at
the moment.
Speaker 4 (16:48):
Let me say this much about Martin Scorsese.
Scorsese really tried.
Speaker 2 (16:55):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (16:56):
And DiCaprio and De Niro.
They spent time with Osages onthe Osage Reservation, trying to
learn as much as they couldabout the people.
They did do that.
Speaker 2 (17:09):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (17:12):
So I really need to give them credit for that, even
as I criticize the film for itsshort form.
Speaker 2 (17:20):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I think there's a lot to consider,
but it just happens.
So, just trying to figure itout, say in the Denver area,
(17:51):
colorado, that whole Nativecommunity out there I wonder if
you could just kind of give us asense of your work over the
years.
I know this could go on for along time if we wanted to, but
you know, I've just been soimpressed we both have been so
impressed with what you've beenable to accomplish there in
Denver, from, you know, creatingcommunity organizations and
(18:15):
institutes and things tocommemorating the Sand Hill
Massacre, the Sand Hill Massacre.
Speaker 4 (18:23):
So you know there's a lot of things that you've been
involved with and I wonder ifyou could just introduce some of
our listeners to that history.
Yeah, I guess I would have tosay that being an American
Indian academic is challengingin different ways from being an
ordinary white academic.
(18:45):
My white colleagues, or as Iprefer to call them,
euro-christian colleagues, neverhad to be active outside of
their university post.
They were free to go home andwatch TV or write a book and get
a big jump in their salary.
(19:06):
While Indian academics have atendency to feel the need to be
active in the community itselfand from the very beginning of
my time here in Denver in 1985,I was active in the community.
I knew all the key players ofthe key agencies back then.
(19:31):
I'm not as public now I'mgetting old so I don't circulate
as much but I'm stillrecognized when I walk in the
Indian Center.
Speaker 2 (19:42):
No, we've seen that.
Speaker 4 (19:44):
But back in about 1989, 1990, I guess I took over
this organization it was calledback then Living Waters Indian
Episcopal Mission and we lostour Lakota Episcopal mission and
(20:06):
we lost our Lakota Episcopalpriest and it wasn't clear that
they had money to bring someonein and it just fell to me to
take it over and to take it overwithout an honorarium, without
pay.
So I ran it for 25 years and itwas shortly after I took it
(20:33):
over that the people renamed itFour Winds instead of Living
Waters, to give it an Indianname, indian name and convinced
me right at the point where Irenounced Christianity that we
need to do away with that Sundayworship service mentality and
(20:55):
replace it with ceremony.
When I first moved into takingit over, we brought a drum in
for the first time and one ofour singers thought sure he's
going to be struck dead bylightning.
He had never sung one of thosedrum songs in a church.
Speaker 3 (21:20):
Wow.
Speaker 4 (21:24):
I said, well, god don't own this place, and we
started referring to it as theplace formally called church,
and the young crew that havetaken it over now call it a
liberated zone.
Speaker 2 (21:44):
Ah, wow.
Speaker 4 (21:47):
And they're doing good.
Speaker 3 (21:49):
You'd think when the conquistadores came in all over
Mexico, they would level all thepyramids and sacred sites and
use the very rubble to constructthe churches, to build their
own churches.
Yeah, in this way you're kindof deconstructing the structure
of a church, that's right.
Speaker 4 (22:06):
It's in reverse and we're building our ceremonial
site on top of their sacredspace Right.
Speaker 3 (22:16):
Which was your sacred space, probably.
Speaker 4 (22:19):
Originally.
We've always known that it'sgrandmother.
Right, we've always known thatit's grandmother right and we
feel that when we're there,because for the past 30 plus
years now 35 years yeah, weburied people there, married
people there, celebratedsobriety anniversaries,
(22:42):
everything for the communityright there.
Speaker 3 (22:46):
Well, people need to gather in a city, they do, you
know, there's power in that.
We need one another.
Speaker 4 (22:53):
We gave a different place than the Indian Center?
Yeah, a place where they couldjust come and sit and talk.
Yeah, a place where they couldjust come and sit and talk.
And the ceremony that emerged,that we forged began to involve,
(23:18):
from 1990 on, everybody in thecircle having a say.
So we would actually go aroundthat circle and give everyone
there the opportunity to saywhat was on their mind so needed
.
Speaker 3 (23:31):
Cities are so isolating.
Speaker 2 (23:34):
It seems like a lot of churches are closing.
Maybe you know there could bemore of these places.
Speaker 4 (23:43):
Yeah, so that you would get calls from people,
because I buried hundreds ofpeople over the years and I get
a call from a family.
We're members at Four Winds andour grandmother died.
We have the funeral there and Ihave no idea who they were.
(24:05):
Maybe they came once ten yearsago.
I couldn't remember.
We don't have membership.
Speaker 2 (24:15):
Right.
Speaker 4 (24:17):
There's no membership .
Well, if you're Indian, yep,you belong, this is your place,
and we never turned anyone away.
Speaker 3 (24:30):
Wow Meaningful.
Speaker 2 (24:32):
Yeah, more on the kind of doctrine of discovery
side of your work.
I know you were involved withcommemorating that, that black
event, the Sand Creek Massacre,and that that that now has also.
(24:56):
I see it here, we see it in theeast.
It's much more part of ourcultural geography than it was
30 years ago when you wereworking on it, so maybe you
could tell our audience a littlebit about that as well.
Speaker 4 (25:17):
Well, sand Creek is here in Colorado.
That's why it's important to ushere.
Well, well, sand Creek is herein Colorado.
That's why it's important to ushere.
It's important to shine inArapaho peoples in Oklahoma and
Montana and Wyoming.
They haven't forgotten and theykeep coming back.
In fact, 30 years ago theybegan having this Sand Creek
(25:39):
healing run.
25 years ago.
Maybe it was having this SandCreek Healing Run 25 years ago,
maybe it was.
And when they first did that,we were their contact at Four
Winds and we would feed peopleat Four Winds at the end of it.
Eventually it became too bigfor Four Winds.
By the way, four Winds always,from the very beginning, housed
(26:02):
Colorado American IndianMovement and you know Glenn
Morris, russ Means thatparticular crew Right.
As far as I know, I'm still onthe Elders Council of AIM.
Speaker 2 (26:16):
Wow.
Speaker 4 (26:17):
That's like being a member at Four Winds.
I don't think I ever get off ofthat.
Speaker 2 (26:22):
No, retiring from that position, even though it
doesn't give you any money.
Speaker 4 (26:27):
Right, no, 4wins cost me $2,000 a year just to run it
.
I think because we had such alow budget.
Speaker 2 (26:36):
Right.
Speaker 4 (26:38):
So from that point on I was involved in Sand Creek.
I've been out to the sitemultiple times.
I've been out with contingentsof the American Indian Movement
or contingents from Four Winds.
We've had pipe ceremonies outthere.
But what happened at Sand Creekyou know, the murder of some
(27:06):
300 Cheyennes and Arapahos andmaybe a handful of Lakotas and
Kiowas is what happened acrossthe continent.
It wasn't a solo event.
Right, what happened inConnecticut on the Mystic River
in 1637 was the same sort ofevent.
Speaker 2 (27:31):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (27:32):
A Christian army attacking an undefended village
at Mystic, of women, childrenand old people, slaughtering 700
peacocks.
All the peacocks are out in thefield waiting for the English
army to advance to meet them infair, honest warfare.
(27:55):
So from that point on untilSand Creek, and even beyond that
Wounded Knee, these massacresare just a part of the genocide
and it's accretional.
Speaker 2 (28:12):
The more it happens, the more it happens and the more
effective it becomes effectiveit becomes, and there are
different forms of genocide, ofcourse, but these overt killings
were perpetrated by Christians,and was it?
Is it Chivington who is theminister, a general or something
(28:36):
colonel?
A general or something colonel?
Speaker 4 (28:43):
He was the commanding officer of the Colorado First
and the Colorado Third, whichare US Army units, and quite
often I just read an online sitewhere his units were called
volunteer militia.
No, no, no, no, they were USArmy Ch, they were US Army.
(29:03):
Chittenden had a US Armycommission and the Colorado
First volunteers were a unitlike the Ohio volunteers or
whatever that were put togetherin order to fight during the
Civil War.
And the Colorado First didfight a Civil War battle in New
(29:26):
Mexico the year before SandCreek.
Speaker 2 (29:34):
Yeah, and wasn't there a monument to him in
Denver that you were the lasttime we visited?
You were telling us about thisstatue or monument.
Was it to Chivington?
I might be getting this wrong.
Speaker 4 (29:47):
It was a Civil War statue which, on its plaque,
commemorated Sand Creek as oneof the Civil War in Colorado.
Wow, wow.
Speaker 2 (30:03):
Wow.
Speaker 4 (30:06):
What civil war is that?
And of course it wasn't abattle, it was just a massacre
Right A sleeping village whothought they'd signed a peace
treaty with the US.
Speaker 2 (30:18):
Right.
Speaker 4 (30:18):
Done everything they were told to do to behave
themselves according to thecolonizers' interdiction.
Woke up one morning to anadvancing army.
Speaker 3 (30:31):
Well, in Haudenosaunee country, you know,
the Loyani are speaking withthe founding fathers on how to
establish a better union ofpeacemaking and then Washington,
you know, uses Joseph Brandt asa catalyst for declaring war on
the Haudenosaunee.
(30:52):
When Joseph Brandt, a Mohawkman, was raised in British
schools, his sister married thefirst British superintendent of
Indian affairs and he wasgroomed to be an infiltrator of
the Haudenosaunee.
He was not a loyani of theHaudenosaunee, he was, in the
British eyes, a war chief and hewas used as a war chief to
(31:14):
dismantle the Confederacy.
So after Washington has thatscorched earth campaign and
removes most of theHaudenosaunee from their
territories, he just deviates upall the land to pay his
soldiers.
So did this happen also inColorado?
Did the soldiers end up withthe land?
Was it a way of exterminatingbodies so they could inhabit the
(31:39):
space?
Speaker 4 (31:41):
It didn't work the same way in 1864 as it did in
the 1770s, 1780s.
Speaker 3 (31:50):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (31:53):
By then the United States was much more established
.
Speaker 1 (31:57):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (31:57):
And what you have going on in Colorado is the
Homestead Act.
Speaker 3 (32:03):
Oh, they just named it something else shifted it the
legalities worked outdifferently.
Speaker 4 (32:17):
Right along the Platte River is one person who's
a cowboy, whose people arecattle barren, whose people go
out and homestead all thewaterholes.
Wow, See, in the land here it'sonly useful if you have access
(32:42):
to the water holes.
Speaker 2 (32:43):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (32:45):
Well, they homesteaded the water holes and
eventually sold to himself sothat he owned all.
He didn't own, all of that partof Colorado, from Denver north
and east up to the Nebraska line.
(33:07):
He owned all the waterholes.
So it didn't matter if otherpeople homesteaded land, they
couldn't make a living there.
Hence it was just open cattleland and he could run his cattle
through the whole territory,just making sure that he
protected his properties, thewater holes, so that only his
(33:28):
cattle had access to water.
His name, by the way, was JohnWesley Eiliff.
Speaker 2 (33:38):
Do you?
Speaker 4 (33:38):
need help catching up on today's topic, or do you
want to?
Speaker 1 (33:41):
learn more about the resources mentioned.
If so, please check our websiteat podcastdoctorofdiscoveryorg
for more information.
Speaker 3 (33:48):
Well, maybe we can dig deeper into this story now,
Because of the work you had doneon what is it?
Speaker 2 (33:54):
Christian history.
Speaker 3 (33:55):
And now back to the conversation.
Maybe you could tell us alittle bit about how you've been
pushing against your owninstitution here.
When you talk about theinsignificance of an indigenous
human body.
Maybe you could tell the storyabout this history being
encapsulated in a text.
Speaker 4 (34:16):
Next month we have five Lenape flying into Denver
to consult with ILIF.
This will be their third tripto ILIF and they come from all
over Turtle Island, includingPat Noah who comes down from
(34:39):
Ontario, from Lenape Reserve inOntario, from Oklahoma, from
Wisconsin, and one lone Lenapefrom San Diego, steve somebody.
Speaker 2 (34:59):
Yeah, I think I might know that guy, you might yeah,
yeah, I think I might know thatguy.
Speaker 4 (35:03):
You might, yeah, yeah , nukem, the world's foremost
authority, in my opinion, on thedoctrine of discovery.
What happened was in 1779, aEuro-Christian squatter In 1779,
(35:24):
a Euro-Christian squatter, bythe way, a Quaker, nonviolent,
pacifist, right yeah hadsquatted on the Monongahela
River in what's now WestVirginia.
It was opening up that part ofIndian land to a Euro-Christian
(35:45):
frontier, so they were the firstsettlers in that region.
And David Morgan, on that,about the 1st of May 1779, saw
an Indian man on his what hecalled his farm, that's, his
squatted home, and Morgan wasknown as a good shot, famous for
(36:10):
its accuracy, and he thoughtthis is an easy kill.
So he drew a bead with hismusket and killed the man on
sight, only to discover therewas a second Indian with him.
And he ends up in ahand-to-hand duel with this
other Indian and it's all mereluck that he's able to kill that
(36:31):
second Lenape.
They're Lenape, both of themwith a knife.
Morgan's comrades down at thefort they built this is Fort
Pickett and it's not a militaryfort, it's civilian which the
(36:52):
squatters built in order toprotect their stolen land, right
their property Come out to helphim finish the deed and skin
both Indians and tan their skinand turn their skin into trophy
(37:15):
trinket.
You know little trophy trinketsshot bags, powder pouches and
the cover for a book.
And since books are in shortsupply, it had to be one that
(37:35):
they had with them.
And evidently David Morgan hadthis unbound copy of the history
of Christianity written inLatin Historia Christiana,
written by a German theologian.
He's so proud of his book thathe gives it as a gift to a guy
(38:04):
named Bill Barnes, a young manaround 1800, who's decided to
become a Methodist minister.
Now, only a couple of yearsbefore David Morgan the Quaker
converted to the MethodistChurch as well, kind of like
(38:26):
John Evans, the governor ofColorado, born to a strong
Quaker family, who later in hislife told an interviewer wife
told an interviewer inretrospect I'm really happy
having converted to Methodismbecause I would not have been
able to respond to Indianatrocities if I'd stayed a
(38:49):
Quaker.
Stop, david Morgan.
Speaker 2 (38:54):
Right.
Speaker 4 (38:56):
And of course, indian atrocities are any attempt to
defend their homes Declaredillegal on the face of it,
because we want your land.
So anyway, david Barnes well,I'm sorry.
(39:17):
William Barnes took thishistory of Christianity with him
to Ohio where he continued hisMethodist ministry Right after
the Ohio Territory became astate, you know, after they
pushed away, the Confederacythere built around the Senecas
(39:42):
in the north, and his son, rosenMonroe Barnes.
Rm Barnes gets the book,inherits it, becomes a Methodist
minister.
And in the old Methodist system, remember, ministers are moved
(40:02):
every year by the bishop in thisso-called itinerant system so
that they would not have manybelongings to move from one
place to another.
They've all got to fit insideone wagon, one buckboard, right,
yeah, this book is so importantthat he has it with him every
(40:25):
time he moves.
Wow, oh my goodness.
And in 1890, he moves to theColorado Methodist Conference,
colorado Methodist Conference.
And in 1893, when this newtheology school opens its doors,
(40:50):
he gives this gift of thisimportant treasure, the skin of
a murdered Indian mocking.
Our theft of the land to Isleof School of Theology, and they
kept it on display in theirlibrary, a case under glass, for
80 years, oh my goodness, sothat white people could come in
(41:13):
and enjoy themselves and enjoythe romance.
Because here's the real romance, Sandy, the romance of
Christian conquest.
Of the real romance, sandyRight.
Speaker 3 (41:23):
The romance of Christian conquest of that's
right, oh my goodness, that'ssort of a so horrific, as Sandy
was saying, it sort ofepitomizes the entirety of the
doctrine of discovery.
Speaker 2 (41:36):
The doctrine of Christian discovery, really.
Speaker 4 (41:38):
That's right, that's right.
Well, the doctrine of Christiandiscovery?
Really, that's right, that'sright.
Well, the doctrine of discoveryis a romance, I mean, just as
John Marshall articulates it inJohnson v McIntosh Wow, it's a
romance, and he knows it is.
It's a fantasy, it's entirelymade up.
Speaker 2 (41:57):
Right.
Speaker 4 (41:58):
And he says clearly in the case in the majority
opinion, the unanimous opinionas long as people believe it, it
becomes effective.
Speaker 2 (42:10):
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm, diabolical 83 years.
Speaker 3 (42:15):
you said that was examined.
80 years, 80 years.
Speaker 2 (42:19):
Oh my goodness, until 1973.
What a trophy.
Oh my goodness, until 1973.
What a trophy.
My math is right.
Speaker 4 (42:24):
How old were you then ?
I was 74.
74.
When the American Indianmovement forced Iliff to
surrender the cover of the book.
Speaker 2 (42:36):
So where is the book now?
Speaker 4 (42:39):
Iliff still has the book without its cover.
Speaker 3 (42:42):
Oh really, what happened to the cover?
Speaker 4 (42:48):
A young AIM guy by the name of Wesley Martell took
it up north to his ArapahoSundance spiritual leaders and
they took it out somewhere onthat Wind River Reservation and
(43:12):
buried that person.
Speaker 3 (43:14):
My goodness, wow, what a story.
Speaker 4 (43:21):
What I love to understand is and this is what
Indian people keep telling themthat man was attached to that
book from 1779 to 1974.
Yeah, yeah Is Monarchy.
His energy is still attached tothat book.
(43:45):
Got the cover off but thatdidn't release that man from
being with that book.
Wow.
And now we've got to dosomething.
And people have always hadthese stories about Iliff is
haunted.
(44:06):
I had a colleague who was surethat there was somebody haunting
her office at Iliff and I neverdisabused her of that or told
her what I thought, but that manwas there.
Speaker 2 (44:24):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (44:24):
Yeah, he was there, I still am.
Speaker 2 (44:28):
You know we get that too at the Scano Center because
it was the previous site of theJesuit fort.
Horrific things happened thereand we're always.
You know people are alwayscoming out from the Onondaga
Nation smoking the place orthings.
(44:50):
You know I mean it's.
You know it's still that energyis present in these places.
Speaker 3 (45:00):
Right where the Great Maw of Peace was founded, right
where the peacemaker landedit's sacred land.
And then all the history withthis fort, and it was a failed
mission.
The Onondaga had them leavewithin 20 months, 18 months
(45:23):
actually, from 1656 to 1658.
And yet I grew up with peoplecelebrating that fort and the
Christianization of the Onondaga, which clearly was not true,
never happened.
Speaker 2 (45:32):
Onondaga which clearly was not true, never
happened, yeah, but the factthat you're having this meeting,
you know, in the next month orso.
Just hold on until thehelicopter goes over.
Speaker 4 (45:44):
When I found out about the book and I didn't know
about it.
When I came to Ireland and in1986, probably in the middle of
winter one of my colleaguespulled me aside and told me none
of my other colleagues wouldadmit they knew anything about
it.
This is 11, 12 years after theAIM repatriation of their cover.
(46:15):
But the first thing I did wasto go back over to the school on
a Sunday morning becausethey're Christian.
I knew it would be completelyempty.
Everybody would be in churchand I walked from the basement
to the top and every nook andcranny I could reach I smoked
(46:36):
with sage, you know, pushingnegative energies away, not to
get rid of that man, but to getrid of negative energies and to
enable me to at least talk tothat man clear the air for clear
thinking.
Tell him who I was anyway, right.
Speaker 2 (46:59):
And so I suspect that you're going to be talking
about what to do.
I mean, what with these Lenapevisitors?
Right, how do you dispose ofthe book?
How best to treat that book?
I mean, in English, we reallyjust don't have any way of
(47:19):
talking about the livingpresence in the objects, right,
but how does ILIF?
Are they on board with this?
Are they helping you out?
Speaker 4 (47:40):
so far, the board at least, and the administration
have affirmed what the Lenapehave asked them to do.
Unfortunately, the faculty arenot in step yet, left behind by
our previous president, and thenew president is trying to get
(48:02):
them on board.
I think they will eventually,but the Lenape have asked for
four things before.
The Lenape have said we'll takethe book, but they're heavy
duty.
There's no easy out for thisinstitution having made this
mistake.
Speaker 2 (48:22):
Shouldn't be.
Speaker 4 (48:23):
No.
So they've got to now.
They've committed themselves toraising enough money to endow a
Native activist professorshipTo develop an interpretive
(48:45):
center for American Indianconcerns, including the book and
including Sand Creek on campus,to making that some part of
that a traveling exhibit thatcan go to other institutions and
churches and, fourth Lane, tobuild a memorial to these two
(49:13):
murdered Lenape.
That is a permanent, visiblereminder to.
Speaker 3 (49:20):
I left now and a hundred years from now literal
flesh of an indigenous personfrom the book is pretty much
what Americans have done throughthe ages create this genocide
and then not talk about it andput it aside, and they think
(49:42):
their churches are still goingto stand.
Well, they're not.
They're suffering and you can'tremove the flesh from all these
indigenous people from thisnarrative.
So that's part of the story.
I mean, how do we come togetheras human beings and move
forward?
Certainly not by brushing anyof that under the table.
Speaker 2 (50:07):
I mean yeah, so you let us know, We'll definitely
take that traveling exhibit.
We're also.
We're a sister.
So Syracuse University, for onething, is another former
Methodist institution.
But also I'd love to see thatat the Scano Center Because, as
(50:28):
Tata Daho says, you know, theScano Center part of our
function is as a Holocaustmemorial essentially.
Speaker 4 (50:35):
Yeah, and maybe we can figure out a way that this
center at ILOF can work togetherwith the Scano Center Exactly
Something more than a looseconnection with one another.
Speaker 2 (50:50):
Exactly, I think we have to be working together more
.
Speaker 4 (50:55):
Definitely.
Syracuse University is theUniversity of Denver.
I, the bishop here in Colorado,still sits on the board of
trustees of the University ofDenver, so it's sort of
nominally still Methodist, eventhough nobody comes to the
Methodist school.
So it's sort of nominally stillMethodist, even though nobody
considered Methodist school.
Speaker 2 (51:17):
Right, right, that's pretty much us too.
Speaker 4 (51:20):
But in 1892-93, when ILIF was formed, it was actually
formed as the religiondepartment of the University of
Denver.
It became a separateinstitution only a decade later,
a stand-alone institution.
Speaker 2 (51:41):
Wow.
Well, this has been a wonderfulconversation.
There was so much more we couldbe talking about and working
together on.
Speaker 3 (51:52):
I want to thank you so much for all your work.
Stepping into the world ofacademia is a grueling, almost
impossible task.
Even good people are beyondcomprehension of the level of
disconnection there is in theworld and how the past of
(52:12):
history has really fracturedeverybody living on Turtle
Island.
It's never easy, it's agrueling life and it's very
difficult.
We thank you for taking thatstep and being involved right
where the problem lies Education.
Speaker 2 (52:31):
Always honor you, Tink.
Problem lies Exactly EducationAlways honor you, Tink.
Speaker 4 (52:33):
It's always good to see both of you and to visit
with you.
Appreciate you both.
And the truth is, whiteacademics can retire and their
career is a wrap.
It doesn't work that way forIndians, no it doesn't.
Speaker 3 (52:53):
It's never done.
Way for Indians.
No, it doesn't, it's never done.
It doesn't work that way fornon-native academics who get
involved in this work either.
I mean, I don't see our workever separating, even after
retirement.
Once you're in it, you'recommitted because it's going to
make a change.
That's where it needs to lie.
It's very difficult, but it'svery rare that non-native
(53:15):
academics even begin tounderstand the depth.
Speaker 4 (53:20):
Well, my colleagues basically don't have a clue.
Speaker 3 (53:25):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (53:25):
They've been my colleagues for nearly 40 years
now and to this day they reallydon't have a clue.
Speaker 2 (53:33):
That's just sad.
Speaker 4 (53:34):
Yeah, tragic, I mean internationally.
I've got colleagues like Philthat get it.
There are a handful of you,phil, who do that, but I don't
have one at ILO.
Speaker 2 (53:53):
That's really terrible.
Speaker 4 (53:54):
I was going to say that it's a handful, pretty much
they're very kind people at ILOthat I was more or less
collegial with, but by the timeI retired, I have to say almost
all of them were glad to see mego well, well, you know to say,
almost all of them were glad tosee me go.
Speaker 2 (54:15):
Yeah, Wow, Well, you know it's you know, I find that
students, however, are reallyconnecting to this history and
legacy in a way that you knowmaybe our older colleagues are
not, because I think we're in anurgent moment and they're
(54:38):
looking for something you know.
You know, I reflect on thesixties and seventies, and that
was more.
That was more kind of I don'tknow, just kind of jolly time, I
guess.
Speaker 3 (54:51):
Well, it was hopeful too.
It was hopeful too, withoutunderstanding.
Speaker 2 (54:54):
And I think now students are getting the memo
that this is a real urgentmoment for all of us.
Speaker 4 (55:05):
I have to say, my students at Iowa I really
appreciated.
They did take this seriouslyGood, they did pay this
seriously Good, they did payattention and I did change the
way they see the world time andtime again.
(55:26):
So you know well.
Speaker 2 (55:29):
But my colleagues in the classroom.
I know, yeah, I know, yeah, Iknow.
Well, I will finish with this,because when you resigned from
the American Academy of Religionvery publicly, because you
could not function in a racistChristian organization any
(55:52):
longer and I'm thinking that wasprobably 30 years ago now too-
1993, I think 94.
Okay, 30 years Just about, andthat was an impressive you know.
It certainly had an impact onme Of course I'm still a member
(56:12):
of the AAR certainly had animpact on me.
Of course I'm still a member ofthe AAR and we've still tried
to, you know, hold events thereand give papers that have been,
I hope, a little transformativefor our grad students.
But that, you know, that singleact, tink, was transformative
for a lot of people and I don'tknow if you've heard about it,
(56:34):
but you know it's something thathad an impact.
Speaker 4 (56:38):
I never looked back.
Speaker 2 (56:40):
I know, I know, but it's it had, it's, you know, you
rose to the moment.
Speaker 4 (56:47):
Let's put that, put it that way, Colleagues at ILIF
who were deeply involved in AARDel Brown, Sheila Devaney, who
assured me I had destroyed mycareer.
Oh wow, my career doesn'tdepend on the white people at
AAR.
Speaker 3 (57:08):
Oh, right, wow, Wow.
Speaker 4 (57:10):
Wow, and looking back on it, I think I've done okay
yeah.
Speaker 2 (57:16):
Yeah, you know, but yeah.
Speaker 3 (57:20):
Yeah, clueless.
Speaker 2 (57:21):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (57:22):
Clueless is the word.
Speaker 2 (57:24):
Del Brown Wow, okay.
Well, great to see you, tink,if you're ever through Syracuse
Onondaga Nation territory.
Speaker 4 (57:34):
Let us know.
Speaker 2 (57:35):
Will you please let us know.
Speaker 4 (57:37):
I'd love to come up that way.
All right, I don't travel asmuch as I used to, especially
discretionary travel.
Yeah, discretionary travel isback to the Osage, yeah Right.
Speaker 2 (57:50):
Yeah, yeah, I understand you the Osage, yeah,
right.
Speaker 3 (57:53):
Yeah, yeah, I understand.
Speaker 4 (57:55):
You all be well.
Speaker 3 (57:57):
Okay.
Speaker 4 (57:57):
You be well, too.
Jolay wahoy.
Speaker 1 (58:02):
The producers of this podcast were Adam DJ Brett and
Jordan Lawn Cologne.
Our intro and outro is socialdancing music by Oris Edwards
and Regis Cook.
This podcast is funded incollaboration with the Henry
Luce Foundation, syracuseUniversity and Hendrix Chapel
and the Indigenous ValuesInitiative.
If you like this episode,please check out our website and
(58:23):
make sure to subscribe.
Hello and welcome to the Mapping the Doctrine of
Discovery podcast.
The producers of this podcastwould like to acknowledge with
respect the Onondaga Nationfirekeepers of the Haudenosaunee
, the indigenous peoples onwhose ancestral lands Syracuse
University now stands, and nowintroducing your hosts, phil
(00:27):
Arnold and Sandy Bigtree.
Speaker 2 (00:32):
Welcome back everyone to Mapping the Doctrine of
Discovery.
My name is Phil Arnold.
I'm faculty in the ReligionDepartment at Syracuse
University, poor faculty inNative American Indigenous
Studies and the foundingdirector of the Scano Great Law
Peace Center.
Speaker 3 (00:49):
And I'm Sandy Bigtree , a citizen of the Mohawk Nation
at Akwesasne.
I'm on the collaborative of theIndigenous Values Initiative
and the Scano Great Law PeaceCenter.
Speaker 2 (01:02):
And we're brought to you today by the Henry Luce
Foundation, who are supportingthese podcasts and this work in
the Doctrine of Discovery.
Really appreciate the HenryLuce Foundation.
Today we're blessed really tohave an old friend with us, old
(01:28):
friend with us, professor TinkTinker, who has been a stalwart
in Native American issues fordecades and decades and one of
the primary features of his workhas always been on the excesses
of Christianity among NativeAmerican peoples.
So, tink, thanks for coming andI'll let you introduce yourself
(01:50):
to our audience.
Speaker 4 (01:52):
Always good to be with both of you, sandy and Phil
Bindi.
W'jaju tsele gwamato wonton.
I'm a citizen of the OsageNation and belong to the Eagle
Clan.
That's why I position myselfwhenever I speak, and people
need to know who I am in orderto put what I have to say in
(02:18):
context.
I'm also the emeritus professorof American Indian Studies at
Isle of School of Theology, aChristian institution with
interreligious interests, ofcourse, a fairly liberal school.
But even as a liberal school,they had to figure out whether
(02:42):
to hang on to me when Irenounced Christianity after I
wrote Missionary Conquest,american Indians and the
genocide of the gospel.
Speaker 2 (02:59):
And that was about 30 years ago, something like that.
Speaker 4 (03:02):
Exactly 31 years ago.
Wow, great book, that was about30 years ago.
Something like that Exactly 31years ago yeah.
Wow, great book 1993.
But once I wrote that book Iknew I could no longer profess
that Christian myth.
It no longer hung together forme.
Together for me, there were somany worldview differences
(03:31):
pulling Indians and whiteChristians in different
directions.
Christianity is first andforemost, at least if you
believe Martin Luther, about thesalvation of the individual
soul, justification by faith,right, right For American Indian
people.
It's never about me, it'salways about the community,
(03:57):
about the whole, and that's thefirst big tension that you have
to move beyond in order to makethat Christian confession that
the colonizer and all themissionariesaries I talk about,
four of them in missionaryconquest, all of them really
(04:33):
good at what they did, and whatthey did more than anything else
was function to destroyAmerican Indians' grasp on their
own worldview and replace itwith a Christian worldview.
As one commissioner of AmericanIndian affairs said in the
(05:00):
middle of the 19th century, wemust teach Indians to say mine
instead of ours, wow, me insteadof us, I instead of we.
That says it all in a nutshell.
So that's who I am.
Speaker 2 (05:23):
Wonderful.
So that's who I am Wonderful,and you know, of course, when we
talk about the community,talking about all the natural
world, right, all of the nonother than human beings as well
as human beings in our community, yes and no my caveat would be
(05:45):
we have no word for nature inIyawashaji.
Speaker 4 (05:55):
That's one of those nominal abstractions that works
for white people like that buthas no meaning in an Indian
world, Because all people arerelated to me.
All people has to be inclusiveof, as you said, other than just
human beings.
Speaker 3 (06:10):
It was amazing with how little time it took the
Jesuits and the earlymissionaries to change the
orientation of Native people andthe way they were thinking, and
they used such brutal force toaccomplish that.
And so they knew what would beeffective and, because it must
(06:31):
have played out in Europe, theymust have been doing this to all
the Indigenous people in Europeas well, because everyone has
Indigenous ancestors at somepoint.
But when they came here, theyknew exactly what they were
doing and exactly whom to target.
Speaker 4 (06:48):
I suspect that's right, Sandy.
We don't know, of course,because the Christians did such
a great job of erasingindigenous people in Europe.
Speaker 3 (06:58):
I mean, they're still there, Sammy's in the way north
, and we have pockets of peopletrying to reclaim their pagan
selves in the rest of Europeespecially in England say they
(07:23):
have such an interest in NativeAmerican history and being
indigenous that they holdpowwows all over Europe, you
know, and they want to reclaim,in Germany and Lithuania and
Russia even, and they've losttheir own connection to their
own heritage.
(07:43):
And they've lost their ownconnection to their own heritage
and they're just, you know,having this need to try to
reclaim something in their DNA.
Speaker 2 (07:50):
I think yeah, we went to something like that.
In Carl My's hometown there wasa big Native American festival.
We had to check it out.
You know, it was really thestrangest experience.
Speaker 3 (08:05):
It was so strange.
I've been there, have you,isn't that something?
Speaker 2 (08:13):
It's an enthusiasm that I don't know really what to
make of it.
You know it's an enthusiasm fordressing up as Native people,
but then they also have.
They bring Native people over.
We know some Haudenosauneedancers that had come over there
.
Speaker 3 (08:31):
Yeah, but they're managed In previous years.
They're managed.
They can only perform, you know, in a certain location, but the
main show is reserved for theGermans who dress up Right Like
Plains Indians.
It's just the most bizarrething I took lots of pictures.
Speaker 4 (08:49):
One of my mentors was Joe Eagle Elk.
She chanted Lakota from Rosebud.
Joe went over to a tree insouthwest Germany where there
was a group of Indian hobbyistswho were doing exactly that, and
(09:12):
they have a village there thatthey occupy in the summer and
all of these German familiestake their summer vacation and
if they don't come to the US tovisit reservations, they go to
this Indian village and theyspend their one month of
vacation living like PlainsIndians.
Speaker 3 (09:37):
Isn't that?
Speaker 4 (09:37):
something Joanne had him do some talking about his
people when he was there and hecame back he said Tink, they do
better beadwork than we do.
Speaker 3 (09:54):
You know academics will write about.
You know the histories ofNative Americans and many times
there will be a critique likeyou shouldn't romanticize about
these ancient cultures.
And it would always kind of beoffensive to me because, being
Haudenosaunee, I know theseancient traditions are still
alive today and they have greatinfluence.
(10:15):
The way we are being humanbeings in the world to Europe
and saw what they're doing overthere and pretending to be
Indian, then it opened up awhole new understanding.
This romanticization of NativeAmericans really is that
Reclaiming them.
Speaker 4 (10:39):
But of course that interdiction don't romanticize
yourself is another way oferasing us.
It's to tell us you don'treally believe that, do you?
That's gone now.
Just let it go, because erasureis still part and parcel of the
(11:01):
agenda of the colonizerdiscovery crowd.
Speaker 2 (11:08):
Yeah, absolutely.
I mean I hadn't really thoughtI'd ask you about this, but
we've been through the Hollywoodaward season and one of the
major films that's been outthere deals with your folks
Killers of the Flower Moon andI've never asked you about it,
(11:30):
but I mean I have differentfeelings about it.
I guess I'd like to get yourtake on it.
I mean, I thought it was a goodfilm in many ways.
We've talked to other peoplewho who thought the book was
better, actually because itpointed out a kind of structural
(11:53):
racism rather than a kind ofinterpersonal problem of, you
know, a racist issue within afamily.
But but that story is now outthere, which is something I
guess.
But you know, I'd like to getyour take on that film.
Speaker 4 (12:14):
First of all, I was not a fan of the book.
Speaker 2 (12:18):
Why is that?
Speaker 4 (12:19):
I was a harsh critic of the book.
Neither the book nor the movieis really about the Osage.
The book was an FBI thriller.
It's about Tom White, the FBIagent who is heroized in the
book, and Osages are bit playersin the drama that unfolds in
(12:48):
the book.
Speaker 2 (12:50):
Also the film.
Speaker 4 (12:52):
I thought that Scorsese did a better job in
that he reduced the role of TomWhite.
Yeah, he made him a minorcharacter, but important
character.
But the movie is about your twomain stars, dicaprio and De Niro
right and not about the oldsages right people were talking
(13:18):
up Lily Gladstone's role asMolly and I thought she was
magnificent, but they could havedone so much more with Molly.
Yeah, role as Molly, and Ithought she was magnificent, but
they could have done so muchmore with Molly.
Yeah, the last half of the filmshe's comatose in most of the
scenes she's in.
Speaker 2 (13:36):
Yeah, yeah, true enough.
Speaker 4 (13:39):
And while Burkhart was trying to kill her, he was
poisoning her.
You Burkhardt was trying tokill her, he was poisoning her.
You still could have done muchmore than Scorsese did with that
.
And in order let's be honest,in order for Hollywood to
produce a film about Osagesthat's going to be about Osages,
(13:59):
you've got to have an Osagemake the movie, and there's no
money for that.
Speaker 2 (14:07):
Yeah, no, it's got to have star power.
Wow, and I think I don't know,I don't know that world at all,
but I do think that, given thatshe did not win the Academy
Award for Best Actress, and youknow, my feeling was that, you
(14:32):
know, america still can't dealwith its history, you know it
still can't.
I mean, that film wascompletely sort of shut out of
the Oscar serum.
Speaker 4 (14:43):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (14:43):
You know, and it's like, yeah, we'll celebrate
these fantastical films and youknow things like that, but that
one was a little too real forpeople.
Speaker 4 (14:56):
Yeah, it wasn't make-believe enough.
Speaker 2 (14:58):
Right.
Speaker 4 (15:01):
Right.
Speaker 2 (15:02):
Yeah, yeah Well.
Speaker 4 (15:04):
I think that's true, right, yeah, I think that's true
, and I think Vine hit it half acentury ago when he said it's
about the land, and whiteAmericans cannot let go of the
fact that their possession ofIndian land is still
(15:24):
questionable.
Speaker 2 (15:26):
At best.
I mean, it's clear from all thelegal cases that we've been
studying in this project that welive on unceded land from coast
to coast and it's a dilemmathat we'll say it's just a
dilemma, it's just likesomething that Americans just
(15:49):
cannot grapple with and it'sreally the heart of the doctrine
of discovery issue that we'retrying to.
Speaker 4 (15:58):
Let's not remind people of that, they just would
rather sweep it under the carpet.
Speaker 2 (16:05):
Exactly, exactly.
Not just the United States, ofcourse.
We're talking about lots ofcolonial outposts around the
world.
Speaker 4 (16:13):
Australia, new, zealand, canada.
Those are the big four, alongwith the US.
Speaker 2 (16:21):
Yeah, I just don't think so.
I don't know.
So I don't know.
I don't know if that film markssome kind of a small awakening.
There are more nativefilmmakers now.
We know some of those people.
They're making inroads.
There are other stories thatare emerging.
(16:44):
So I don't know if it marks achange or if it's just a fad at
the moment.
Speaker 4 (16:48):
Let me say this much about Martin Scorsese.
Scorsese really tried.
Speaker 2 (16:55):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (16:56):
And DiCaprio and De Niro.
They spent time with Osages onthe Osage Reservation, trying to
learn as much as they couldabout the people.
They did do that.
Speaker 2 (17:09):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (17:12):
So I really need to give them credit for that, even
as I criticize the film for itsshort form.
Speaker 2 (17:20):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I think there's a lot to consider,
but it just happens.
So, just trying to figure itout, say in the Denver area,
(17:51):
colorado, that whole Nativecommunity out there I wonder if
you could just kind of give us asense of your work over the
years.
I know this could go on for along time if we wanted to, but
you know, I've just been soimpressed we both have been so
impressed with what you've beenable to accomplish there in
Denver, from, you know, creatingcommunity organizations and
(18:15):
institutes and things tocommemorating the Sand Hill
Massacre, the Sand Hill Massacre.
Speaker 4 (18:23):
So you know there's a lot of things that you've been
involved with and I wonder ifyou could just introduce some of
our listeners to that history.
Yeah, I guess I would have tosay that being an American
Indian academic is challengingin different ways from being an
ordinary white academic.
(18:45):
My white colleagues, or as Iprefer to call them,
euro-christian colleagues, neverhad to be active outside of
their university post.
They were free to go home andwatch TV or write a book and get
a big jump in their salary.
(19:06):
While Indian academics have atendency to feel the need to be
active in the community itselfand from the very beginning of
my time here in Denver in 1985,I was active in the community.
I knew all the key players ofthe key agencies back then.
(19:31):
I'm not as public now I'mgetting old so I don't circulate
as much but I'm stillrecognized when I walk in the
Indian Center.
Speaker 2 (19:42):
No, we've seen that.
Speaker 4 (19:44):
But back in about 1989, 1990, I guess I took over
this organization it was calledback then Living Waters Indian
Episcopal Mission and we lostour Lakota Episcopal mission and
(20:06):
we lost our Lakota Episcopalpriest and it wasn't clear that
they had money to bring someonein and it just fell to me to
take it over and to take it overwithout an honorarium, without
pay.
So I ran it for 25 years and itwas shortly after I took it
(20:33):
over that the people renamed itFour Winds instead of Living
Waters, to give it an Indianname, indian name and convinced
me right at the point where Irenounced Christianity that we
need to do away with that Sundayworship service mentality and
(20:55):
replace it with ceremony.
When I first moved into takingit over, we brought a drum in
for the first time and one ofour singers thought sure he's
going to be struck dead bylightning.
He had never sung one of thosedrum songs in a church.
Speaker 3 (21:20):
Wow.
Speaker 4 (21:24):
I said, well, god don't own this place, and we
started referring to it as theplace formally called church,
and the young crew that havetaken it over now call it a
liberated zone.
Speaker 2 (21:44):
Ah, wow.
Speaker 4 (21:47):
And they're doing good.
Speaker 3 (21:49):
You'd think when the conquistadores came in all over
Mexico, they would level all thepyramids and sacred sites and
use the very rubble to constructthe churches, to build their
own churches.
Yeah, in this way you're kindof deconstructing the structure
of a church, that's right.
Speaker 4 (22:06):
It's in reverse and we're building our ceremonial
site on top of their sacredspace Right.
Speaker 3 (22:16):
Which was your sacred space, probably.
Speaker 4 (22:19):
Originally.
We've always known that it'sgrandmother.
Right, we've always known thatit's grandmother right and we
feel that when we're there,because for the past 30 plus
years now 35 years yeah, weburied people there, married
people there, celebratedsobriety anniversaries,
(22:42):
everything for the communityright there.
Speaker 3 (22:46):
Well, people need to gather in a city, they do, you
know, there's power in that.
We need one another.
Speaker 4 (22:53):
We gave a different place than the Indian Center?
Yeah, a place where they couldjust come and sit and talk.
Yeah, a place where they couldjust come and sit and talk.
And the ceremony that emerged,that we forged began to involve,
(23:18):
from 1990 on, everybody in thecircle having a say.
So we would actually go aroundthat circle and give everyone
there the opportunity to saywhat was on their mind so needed
.
Speaker 3 (23:31):
Cities are so isolating.
Speaker 2 (23:34):
It seems like a lot of churches are closing.
Maybe you know there could bemore of these places.
Speaker 4 (23:43):
Yeah, so that you would get calls from people,
because I buried hundreds ofpeople over the years and I get
a call from a family.
We're members at Four Winds andour grandmother died.
We have the funeral there and Ihave no idea who they were.
(24:05):
Maybe they came once ten yearsago.
I couldn't remember.
We don't have membership.
Speaker 2 (24:15):
Right.
Speaker 4 (24:17):
There's no membership .
Well, if you're Indian, yep,you belong, this is your place,
and we never turned anyone away.
Speaker 3 (24:30):
Wow Meaningful.
Speaker 2 (24:32):
Yeah, more on the kind of doctrine of discovery
side of your work.
I know you were involved withcommemorating that, that black
event, the Sand Creek Massacre,and that that that now has also.
(24:56):
I see it here, we see it in theeast.
It's much more part of ourcultural geography than it was
30 years ago when you wereworking on it, so maybe you
could tell our audience a littlebit about that as well.
Speaker 4 (25:17):
Well, sand Creek is here in Colorado.
That's why it's important to ushere.
Well, well, sand Creek is herein Colorado.
That's why it's important to ushere.
It's important to shine inArapaho peoples in Oklahoma and
Montana and Wyoming.
They haven't forgotten and theykeep coming back.
In fact, 30 years ago theybegan having this Sand Creek
(25:39):
healing run.
25 years ago.
Maybe it was having this SandCreek Healing Run 25 years ago,
maybe it was.
And when they first did that,we were their contact at Four
Winds and we would feed peopleat Four Winds at the end of it.
Eventually it became too bigfor Four Winds.
By the way, four Winds always,from the very beginning, housed
(26:02):
Colorado American IndianMovement and you know Glenn
Morris, russ Means thatparticular crew Right.
As far as I know, I'm still onthe Elders Council of AIM.
Speaker 2 (26:16):
Wow.
Speaker 4 (26:17):
That's like being a member at Four Winds.
I don't think I ever get off ofthat.
Speaker 2 (26:22):
No, retiring from that position, even though it
doesn't give you any money.
Speaker 4 (26:27):
Right, no, 4wins cost me $2,000 a year just to run it
.
I think because we had such alow budget.
Speaker 2 (26:36):
Right.
Speaker 4 (26:38):
So from that point on I was involved in Sand Creek.
I've been out to the sitemultiple times.
I've been out with contingentsof the American Indian Movement
or contingents from Four Winds.
We've had pipe ceremonies outthere.
But what happened at Sand Creekyou know, the murder of some
(27:06):
300 Cheyennes and Arapahos andmaybe a handful of Lakotas and
Kiowas is what happened acrossthe continent.
It wasn't a solo event.
Right, what happened inConnecticut on the Mystic River
in 1637 was the same sort ofevent.
Speaker 2 (27:31):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (27:32):
A Christian army attacking an undefended village
at Mystic, of women, childrenand old people, slaughtering 700
peacocks.
All the peacocks are out in thefield waiting for the English
army to advance to meet them infair, honest warfare.
(27:55):
So from that point on untilSand Creek, and even beyond that
Wounded Knee, these massacresare just a part of the genocide
and it's accretional.
Speaker 2 (28:12):
The more it happens, the more it happens and the more
effective it becomes effectiveit becomes, and there are
different forms of genocide, ofcourse, but these overt killings
were perpetrated by Christians,and was it?
Is it Chivington who is theminister, a general or something
(28:36):
colonel?
A general or something colonel?
Speaker 4 (28:43):
He was the commanding officer of the Colorado First
and the Colorado Third, whichare US Army units, and quite
often I just read an online sitewhere his units were called
volunteer militia.
No, no, no, no, they were USArmy Ch, they were US Army.
(29:03):
Chittenden had a US Armycommission and the Colorado
First volunteers were a unitlike the Ohio volunteers or
whatever that were put togetherin order to fight during the
Civil War.
And the Colorado First didfight a Civil War battle in New
(29:26):
Mexico the year before SandCreek.
Speaker 2 (29:34):
Yeah, and wasn't there a monument to him in
Denver that you were the lasttime we visited?
You were telling us about thisstatue or monument.
Was it to Chivington?
I might be getting this wrong.
Speaker 4 (29:47):
It was a Civil War statue which, on its plaque,
commemorated Sand Creek as oneof the Civil War in Colorado.
Wow, wow.
Speaker 2 (30:03):
Wow.
Speaker 4 (30:06):
What civil war is that?
And of course it wasn't abattle, it was just a massacre
Right A sleeping village whothought they'd signed a peace
treaty with the US.
Speaker 2 (30:18):
Right.
Speaker 4 (30:18):
Done everything they were told to do to behave
themselves according to thecolonizers' interdiction.
Woke up one morning to anadvancing army.
Speaker 3 (30:31):
Well, in Haudenosaunee country, you know,
the Loyani are speaking withthe founding fathers on how to
establish a better union ofpeacemaking and then Washington,
you know, uses Joseph Brandt asa catalyst for declaring war on
the Haudenosaunee.
(30:52):
When Joseph Brandt, a Mohawkman, was raised in British
schools, his sister married thefirst British superintendent of
Indian affairs and he wasgroomed to be an infiltrator of
the Haudenosaunee.
He was not a loyani of theHaudenosaunee, he was, in the
British eyes, a war chief and hewas used as a war chief to
(31:14):
dismantle the Confederacy.
So after Washington has thatscorched earth campaign and
removes most of theHaudenosaunee from their
territories, he just deviates upall the land to pay his
soldiers.
So did this happen also inColorado?
Did the soldiers end up withthe land?
Was it a way of exterminatingbodies so they could inhabit the
(31:39):
space?
Speaker 4 (31:41):
It didn't work the same way in 1864 as it did in
the 1770s, 1780s.
Speaker 3 (31:50):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (31:53):
By then the United States was much more established
.
Speaker 1 (31:57):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (31:57):
And what you have going on in Colorado is the
Homestead Act.
Speaker 3 (32:03):
Oh, they just named it something else shifted it the
legalities worked outdifferently.
Speaker 4 (32:17):
Right along the Platte River is one person who's
a cowboy, whose people arecattle barren, whose people go
out and homestead all thewaterholes.
Wow, See, in the land here it'sonly useful if you have access
(32:42):
to the water holes.
Speaker 2 (32:43):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (32:45):
Well, they homesteaded the water holes and
eventually sold to himself sothat he owned all.
He didn't own, all of that partof Colorado, from Denver north
and east up to the Nebraska line.
(33:07):
He owned all the waterholes.
So it didn't matter if otherpeople homesteaded land, they
couldn't make a living there.
Hence it was just open cattleland and he could run his cattle
through the whole territory,just making sure that he
protected his properties, thewater holes, so that only his
(33:28):
cattle had access to water.
His name, by the way, was JohnWesley Eiliff.
Speaker 2 (33:38):
Do you?
Speaker 4 (33:38):
need help catching up on today's topic, or do you
want to?
Speaker 1 (33:41):
learn more about the resources mentioned.
If so, please check our websiteat podcastdoctorofdiscoveryorg
for more information.
Speaker 3 (33:48):
Well, maybe we can dig deeper into this story now,
Because of the work you had doneon what is it?
Speaker 2 (33:54):
Christian history.
Speaker 3 (33:55):
And now back to the conversation.
Maybe you could tell us alittle bit about how you've been
pushing against your owninstitution here.
When you talk about theinsignificance of an indigenous
human body.
Maybe you could tell the storyabout this history being
encapsulated in a text.
Speaker 4 (34:16):
Next month we have five Lenape flying into Denver
to consult with ILIF.
This will be their third tripto ILIF and they come from all
over Turtle Island, includingPat Noah who comes down from
(34:39):
Ontario, from Lenape Reserve inOntario, from Oklahoma, from
Wisconsin, and one lone Lenapefrom San Diego, steve somebody.
Speaker 2 (34:59):
Yeah, I think I might know that guy, you might yeah,
yeah, I think I might know thatguy.
Speaker 4 (35:03):
You might, yeah, yeah , nukem, the world's foremost
authority, in my opinion, on thedoctrine of discovery.
What happened was in 1779, aEuro-Christian squatter In 1779,
(35:24):
a Euro-Christian squatter, bythe way, a Quaker, nonviolent,
pacifist, right yeah hadsquatted on the Monongahela
River in what's now WestVirginia.
It was opening up that part ofIndian land to a Euro-Christian
(35:45):
frontier, so they were the firstsettlers in that region.
And David Morgan, on that,about the 1st of May 1779, saw
an Indian man on his what hecalled his farm, that's, his
squatted home, and Morgan wasknown as a good shot, famous for
(36:10):
its accuracy, and he thoughtthis is an easy kill.
So he drew a bead with hismusket and killed the man on
sight, only to discover therewas a second Indian with him.
And he ends up in ahand-to-hand duel with this
other Indian and it's all mereluck that he's able to kill that
(36:31):
second Lenape.
They're Lenape, both of themwith a knife.
Morgan's comrades down at thefort they built this is Fort
Pickett and it's not a militaryfort, it's civilian which the
(36:52):
squatters built in order toprotect their stolen land, right
their property Come out to helphim finish the deed and skin
both Indians and tan their skinand turn their skin into trophy
(37:15):
trinket.
You know little trophy trinketsshot bags, powder pouches and
the cover for a book.
And since books are in shortsupply, it had to be one that
(37:35):
they had with them.
And evidently David Morgan hadthis unbound copy of the history
of Christianity written inLatin Historia Christiana,
written by a German theologian.
He's so proud of his book thathe gives it as a gift to a guy
(38:04):
named Bill Barnes, a young manaround 1800, who's decided to
become a Methodist minister.
Now, only a couple of yearsbefore David Morgan the Quaker
converted to the MethodistChurch as well, kind of like
(38:26):
John Evans, the governor ofColorado, born to a strong
Quaker family, who later in hislife told an interviewer wife
told an interviewer inretrospect I'm really happy
having converted to Methodismbecause I would not have been
able to respond to Indianatrocities if I'd stayed a
(38:49):
Quaker.
Stop, david Morgan.
Speaker 2 (38:54):
Right.
Speaker 4 (38:56):
And of course, indian atrocities are any attempt to
defend their homes Declaredillegal on the face of it,
because we want your land.
So anyway, david Barnes well,I'm sorry.
(39:17):
William Barnes took thishistory of Christianity with him
to Ohio where he continued hisMethodist ministry Right after
the Ohio Territory became astate, you know, after they
pushed away, the Confederacythere built around the Senecas
(39:42):
in the north, and his son, rosenMonroe Barnes.
Rm Barnes gets the book,inherits it, becomes a Methodist
minister.
And in the old Methodist system, remember, ministers are moved
(40:02):
every year by the bishop in thisso-called itinerant system so
that they would not have manybelongings to move from one
place to another.
They've all got to fit insideone wagon, one buckboard, right,
yeah, this book is so importantthat he has it with him every
(40:25):
time he moves.
Wow, oh my goodness.
And in 1890, he moves to theColorado Methodist Conference,
colorado Methodist Conference.
And in 1893, when this newtheology school opens its doors,
(40:50):
he gives this gift of thisimportant treasure, the skin of
a murdered Indian mocking.
Our theft of the land to Isleof School of Theology, and they
kept it on display in theirlibrary, a case under glass, for
80 years, oh my goodness, sothat white people could come in
(41:13):
and enjoy themselves and enjoythe romance.
Because here's the real romance, Sandy, the romance of
Christian conquest.
Of the real romance, sandyRight.
Speaker 3 (41:23):
The romance of Christian conquest of that's
right, oh my goodness, that'ssort of a so horrific, as Sandy
was saying, it sort ofepitomizes the entirety of the
doctrine of discovery.
Speaker 2 (41:36):
The doctrine of Christian discovery, really.
Speaker 4 (41:38):
That's right, that's right.
Well, the doctrine of Christiandiscovery?
Really, that's right, that'sright.
Well, the doctrine of discoveryis a romance, I mean, just as
John Marshall articulates it inJohnson v McIntosh Wow, it's a
romance, and he knows it is.
It's a fantasy, it's entirelymade up.
Speaker 2 (41:57):
Right.
Speaker 4 (41:58):
And he says clearly in the case in the majority
opinion, the unanimous opinionas long as people believe it, it
becomes effective.
Speaker 2 (42:10):
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm, diabolical 83 years.
Speaker 3 (42:15):
you said that was examined.
80 years, 80 years.
Speaker 2 (42:19):
Oh my goodness, until 1973.
What a trophy.
Oh my goodness, until 1973.
What a trophy.
My math is right.
Speaker 4 (42:24):
How old were you then ?
I was 74.
74.
When the American Indianmovement forced Iliff to
surrender the cover of the book.
Speaker 2 (42:36):
So where is the book now?
Speaker 4 (42:39):
Iliff still has the book without its cover.
Speaker 3 (42:42):
Oh really, what happened to the cover?
Speaker 4 (42:48):
A young AIM guy by the name of Wesley Martell took
it up north to his ArapahoSundance spiritual leaders and
they took it out somewhere onthat Wind River Reservation and
(43:12):
buried that person.
Speaker 3 (43:14):
My goodness, wow, what a story.
Speaker 4 (43:21):
What I love to understand is and this is what
Indian people keep telling themthat man was attached to that
book from 1779 to 1974.
Yeah, yeah Is Monarchy.
His energy is still attached tothat book.
(43:45):
Got the cover off but thatdidn't release that man from
being with that book.
Wow.
And now we've got to dosomething.
And people have always hadthese stories about Iliff is
haunted.
(44:06):
I had a colleague who was surethat there was somebody haunting
her office at Iliff and I neverdisabused her of that or told
her what I thought, but that manwas there.
Speaker 2 (44:24):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (44:24):
Yeah, he was there, I still am.
Speaker 2 (44:28):
You know we get that too at the Scano Center because
it was the previous site of theJesuit fort.
Horrific things happened thereand we're always.
You know people are alwayscoming out from the Onondaga
Nation smoking the place orthings.
(44:50):
You know I mean it's.
You know it's still that energyis present in these places.
Speaker 3 (45:00):
Right where the Great Maw of Peace was founded, right
where the peacemaker landedit's sacred land.
And then all the history withthis fort, and it was a failed
mission.
The Onondaga had them leavewithin 20 months, 18 months
(45:23):
actually, from 1656 to 1658.
And yet I grew up with peoplecelebrating that fort and the
Christianization of the Onondaga, which clearly was not true,
never happened.
Speaker 2 (45:32):
Onondaga which clearly was not true, never
happened, yeah, but the factthat you're having this meeting,
you know, in the next month orso.
Just hold on until thehelicopter goes over.
Speaker 4 (45:44):
When I found out about the book and I didn't know
about it.
When I came to Ireland and in1986, probably in the middle of
winter one of my colleaguespulled me aside and told me none
of my other colleagues wouldadmit they knew anything about
it.
This is 11, 12 years after theAIM repatriation of their cover.
(46:15):
But the first thing I did wasto go back over to the school on
a Sunday morning becausethey're Christian.
I knew it would be completelyempty.
Everybody would be in churchand I walked from the basement
to the top and every nook andcranny I could reach I smoked
(46:36):
with sage, you know, pushingnegative energies away, not to
get rid of that man, but to getrid of negative energies and to
enable me to at least talk tothat man clear the air for clear
thinking.
Tell him who I was anyway, right.
Speaker 2 (46:59):
And so I suspect that you're going to be talking
about what to do.
I mean, what with these Lenapevisitors?
Right, how do you dispose ofthe book?
How best to treat that book?
I mean, in English, we reallyjust don't have any way of
(47:19):
talking about the livingpresence in the objects, right,
but how does ILIF?
Are they on board with this?
Are they helping you out?
Speaker 4 (47:40):
so far, the board at least, and the administration
have affirmed what the Lenapehave asked them to do.
Unfortunately, the faculty arenot in step yet, left behind by
our previous president, and thenew president is trying to get
(48:02):
them on board.
I think they will eventually,but the Lenape have asked for
four things before.
The Lenape have said we'll takethe book, but they're heavy
duty.
There's no easy out for thisinstitution having made this
mistake.
Speaker 2 (48:22):
Shouldn't be.
Speaker 4 (48:23):
No.
So they've got to now.
They've committed themselves toraising enough money to endow a
Native activist professorshipTo develop an interpretive
(48:45):
center for American Indianconcerns, including the book and
including Sand Creek on campus,to making that some part of
that a traveling exhibit thatcan go to other institutions and
churches and, fourth Lane, tobuild a memorial to these two
(49:13):
murdered Lenape.
That is a permanent, visiblereminder to.
Speaker 3 (49:20):
I left now and a hundred years from now literal
flesh of an indigenous personfrom the book is pretty much
what Americans have done throughthe ages create this genocide
and then not talk about it andput it aside, and they think
(49:42):
their churches are still goingto stand.
Well, they're not.
They're suffering and you can'tremove the flesh from all these
indigenous people from thisnarrative.
So that's part of the story.
I mean, how do we come togetheras human beings and move
forward?
Certainly not by brushing anyof that under the table.
Speaker 2 (50:07):
I mean yeah, so you let us know, We'll definitely
take that traveling exhibit.
We're also.
We're a sister.
So Syracuse University, for onething, is another former
Methodist institution.
But also I'd love to see thatat the Scano Center Because, as
(50:28):
Tata Daho says, you know, theScano Center part of our
function is as a Holocaustmemorial essentially.
Speaker 4 (50:35):
Yeah, and maybe we can figure out a way that this
center at ILOF can work togetherwith the Scano Center Exactly
Something more than a looseconnection with one another.
Speaker 2 (50:50):
Exactly, I think we have to be working together more
.
Speaker 4 (50:55):
Definitely.
Syracuse University is theUniversity of Denver.
I, the bishop here in Colorado,still sits on the board of
trustees of the University ofDenver, so it's sort of
nominally still Methodist, eventhough nobody comes to the
Methodist school.
So it's sort of nominally stillMethodist, even though nobody
considered Methodist school.
Speaker 2 (51:17):
Right, right, that's pretty much us too.
Speaker 4 (51:20):
But in 1892-93, when ILIF was formed, it was actually
formed as the religiondepartment of the University of
Denver.
It became a separateinstitution only a decade later,
a stand-alone institution.
Speaker 2 (51:41):
Wow.
Well, this has been a wonderfulconversation.
There was so much more we couldbe talking about and working
together on.
Speaker 3 (51:52):
I want to thank you so much for all your work.
Stepping into the world ofacademia is a grueling, almost
impossible task.
Even good people are beyondcomprehension of the level of
disconnection there is in theworld and how the past of
(52:12):
history has really fracturedeverybody living on Turtle
Island.
It's never easy, it's agrueling life and it's very
difficult.
We thank you for taking thatstep and being involved right
where the problem lies Education.
Speaker 2 (52:31):
Always honor you, Tink.
Problem lies Exactly EducationAlways honor you, Tink.
Speaker 4 (52:33):
It's always good to see both of you and to visit
with you.
Appreciate you both.
And the truth is, whiteacademics can retire and their
career is a wrap.
It doesn't work that way forIndians, no it doesn't.
Speaker 3 (52:53):
It's never done.
Way for Indians.
No, it doesn't, it's never done.
It doesn't work that way fornon-native academics who get
involved in this work either.
I mean, I don't see our workever separating, even after
retirement.
Once you're in it, you'recommitted because it's going to
make a change.
That's where it needs to lie.
It's very difficult, but it'svery rare that non-native
(53:15):
academics even begin tounderstand the depth.
Speaker 4 (53:20):
Well, my colleagues basically don't have a clue.
Speaker 3 (53:25):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (53:25):
They've been my colleagues for nearly 40 years
now and to this day they reallydon't have a clue.
Speaker 2 (53:33):
That's just sad.
Speaker 4 (53:34):
Yeah, tragic, I mean internationally.
I've got colleagues like Philthat get it.
There are a handful of you,phil, who do that, but I don't
have one at ILO.
Speaker 2 (53:53):
That's really terrible.
Speaker 4 (53:54):
I was going to say that it's a handful, pretty much
they're very kind people at ILOthat I was more or less
collegial with, but by the timeI retired, I have to say almost
all of them were glad to see mego well, well, you know to say,
almost all of them were glad tosee me go.
Speaker 2 (54:15):
Yeah, Wow, Well, you know it's you know, I find that
students, however, are reallyconnecting to this history and
legacy in a way that you knowmaybe our older colleagues are
not, because I think we're in anurgent moment and they're
(54:38):
looking for something you know.
You know, I reflect on thesixties and seventies, and that
was more.
That was more kind of I don'tknow, just kind of jolly time, I
guess.
Speaker 3 (54:51):
Well, it was hopeful too.
It was hopeful too, withoutunderstanding.
Speaker 2 (54:54):
And I think now students are getting the memo
that this is a real urgentmoment for all of us.
Speaker 4 (55:05):
I have to say, my students at Iowa I really
appreciated.
They did take this seriouslyGood, they did pay this
seriously Good, they did payattention and I did change the
way they see the world time andtime again.
(55:26):
So you know well.
Speaker 2 (55:29):
But my colleagues in the classroom.
I know, yeah, I know, yeah, Iknow.
Well, I will finish with this,because when you resigned from
the American Academy of Religionvery publicly, because you
could not function in a racistChristian organization any
(55:52):
longer and I'm thinking that wasprobably 30 years ago now too-
1993, I think 94.
Okay, 30 years Just about, andthat was an impressive you know.
It certainly had an impact onme Of course I'm still a member
(56:12):
of the AAR certainly had animpact on me.
Of course I'm still a member ofthe AAR and we've still tried
to, you know, hold events thereand give papers that have been,
I hope, a little transformativefor our grad students.
But that, you know, that singleact, tink, was transformative
for a lot of people and I don'tknow if you've heard about it,
(56:34):
but you know it's something thathad an impact.
Speaker 4 (56:38):
I never looked back.
Speaker 2 (56:40):
I know, I know, but it's it had, it's, you know, you
rose to the moment.
Speaker 4 (56:47):
Let's put that, put it that way, Colleagues at ILIF
who were deeply involved in AARDel Brown, Sheila Devaney, who
assured me I had destroyed mycareer.
Oh wow, my career doesn'tdepend on the white people at
AAR.
Speaker 3 (57:08):
Oh, right, wow, Wow.
Speaker 4 (57:10):
Wow, and looking back on it, I think I've done okay
yeah.
Speaker 2 (57:16):
Yeah, you know, but yeah.
Speaker 3 (57:20):
Yeah, clueless.
Speaker 2 (57:21):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (57:22):
Clueless is the word.
Speaker 2 (57:24):
Del Brown Wow, okay.
Well, great to see you, tink,if you're ever through Syracuse
Onondaga Nation territory.
Speaker 4 (57:34):
Let us know.
Speaker 2 (57:35):
Will you please let us know.
Speaker 4 (57:37):
I'd love to come up that way.
All right, I don't travel asmuch as I used to, especially
discretionary travel.
Yeah, discretionary travel isback to the Osage, yeah Right.
Speaker 2 (57:50):
Yeah, yeah, I understand you the Osage, yeah,
right.
Speaker 3 (57:53):
Yeah, yeah, I understand.
Speaker 4 (57:55):
You all be well.
Speaker 3 (57:57):
Okay.
Speaker 4 (57:57):
You be well, too.
Jolay wahoy.
Speaker 1 (58:02):
The producers of this podcast were Adam DJ Brett and
Jordan Lawn Cologne.
Our intro and outro is socialdancing music by Oris Edwards
and Regis Cook.
This podcast is funded incollaboration with the Henry
Luce Foundation, syracuseUniversity and Hendrix Chapel
and the Indigenous ValuesInitiative.
If you like this episode,please check out our website and
(58:23):
make sure to subscribe.
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