November 13, 2024 • 71 mins
What if the very religion that oppressed your ancestors could also be your path to liberation? Join us as we engage with Soulforce's representatives—Reverend Alba Onofrio, Nadia Arellano, and Karina Vargas—in a powerful conversation about dismantling white Christian supremacy and Christian nationalism. We share insights from a recent gathering at Syracuse University, highlighting the crucial role of community and continuous dialogue in tackling these urgent issues.
Our journey doesn't stop there. We explore the intricate relationship between Christianity and Indigenous spirituality, examining how faith, once a tool of colonialism, can now be reclaimed for healing and empowerment. I, a queer Christian minister immersed in earth-based healing practices, share my personal reconciliation with Christianity's historical harms. Together, we dissect the Doctrine of Discovery and its ongoing impact, addressing the spiritual violence perpetuated by religious institutions and the generational trauma that still lingers.
We also shed light on efforts to reclaim Indigenous food and healing practices as acts of resistance against Christian supremacy. By reconnecting with our ancestral ways through conscious choices and daily acts of disobedience, we find paths to wholeness and cultural reclamation. Discover how movements like eco-spirituality and feminist theology are paving the way for a more inclusive and respectful approach to spirituality, honoring the diverse traditions that shape our world. Join us for this enlightening episode and uncover how we can collectively heal and dismantle oppressive systems.
View the transcript and show notes at podcast.doctrineofdiscovery.org. Learn more about the Doctrine of Discovery on our site DoctrineofDiscovery.org.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
I'm a faculty person in religion at Syracuse
University, also core faculty inNative American Indigenous
Studies, and founding directorof the Scano Great Law Peace
Center.
Speaker 2 (00:11):
And hi, I'm Sandy Bigtree, a citizen of the Mohawk
Nation at Alpha Sosni, and I'mon the board of the Indigenous
Values Initiative as well as onthe academic collaborative for
the Scano Great Log.
Speaker 1 (00:26):
Welcome, yeah, and today we're coming to you from
the heartland of theHaudenosaunee Onondaga Nation
Territory and we're beingsponsored by Henry Luth
Foundation.
Today we're really happy to beable to bring you a conversation
with Soul Force.
We have three guests, threevery important guests that have
(00:51):
been doing remarkable work invarious ways, and we just want
to introduce you all to whatthey're doing and how they are
changing and composting thewhite Christian supremacy.
So we just had a conversationabout that and maybe we'll
(01:14):
elaborate, but we were broughttogether through the Henry Luce
Foundation.
Dean Emily Towns and Dr TheresaSmallwood introduced us all and
we've been trying to coordinateand get this conversation
(01:34):
together ever since, but please,maybe one at a time, you could
introduce yourselves and thework you're doing at SoulForce,
starting with you, alba.
Speaker 4 (01:52):
Thank you so much for having us on the podcast.
We're delighted to be here.
We were so grateful to be incommunity on Haudenosaunee
territory earlier end of lastyear, so we are grateful to be
here.
I am Reverend Alba Onofrio.
I'm the executive director ofSoulforce and one of the
(02:12):
founding co-founders of Teologíasin Vergüenza, which is a queer
and feminist podcast aboutChristian theology at the
margins, and we have been aroundfor about 25 years at the
margins.
And we have been around forabout 25 years.
I am currently on Cherokee landdown here in Appalachia, which
is where I grew up, and we arean organization that has been
(02:35):
working to end the political andreligious discrimination and
oppression of LGBT people for 25years, and we're excited to be
with y'all this time.
Speaker 2 (02:49):
Thank you.
Speaker 5 (02:52):
I can go next.
Speaker 2 (02:54):
Yeah, thank you Hi everyone.
Speaker 5 (02:56):
I'm a huge fan of the podcast, so I'm very excited to
be here.
My name is Nadia Arellano.
I am from Mexico City, born andraised.
I am the associate director atSouth Force and I also do a lot
of the Latin Americanprogramming work I have been
(03:28):
involved in.
I've been studying theologyChristian theology and, in
particular, feminist and queerinjustice, the different
languages it uses to oppress andhow it weaponizes things that
are important for people,specifically, spirituality and
faith.
So I am very excited to be hereand, yeah, thank you for having
(04:12):
me Welcome.
Thank you.
Speaker 1 (04:16):
And Karina.
Speaker 3 (04:19):
Yeah, can you hear me there yet?
Speaker 2 (04:22):
Yes, oh yes.
Speaker 3 (04:23):
Okay, thank you.
So my name is Karina Vargas, Iam from Costa Rica and at
Soulforce I coordinate in theInstitute on Spiritual Violence,
healing and Social Change and Ihave a formation in theology
and psychology.
I have a formation in theologyand psychology and sabotaging
(05:08):
hegemonic religion is somethingI connect a lot with and there
are reasons why, culturally, itneeds to be done in this way,
but we can talk about that laterand I want to say that I
enjoyed a lot the time we had inSyracuse last December and I'm
very excited to be part of thisconversation this morning.
Thank you very much.
Speaker 1 (05:17):
Thank you all for coming.
Yeah, it was.
Yeah.
Last December was somethingwe're still sort of thinking
about, grappling with, wonderingwhat the next steps are.
I mean, it was an incrediblydiverse group of people.
We were really gratified somany people turned out to come
(05:41):
and really participate in inthis conversation, which is so.
What I appreciate about soulforce is that, um, and also my
discipline in general history ofreligions is that religion has,
religion is the problem, andreligion uh, religious studies
(06:04):
has to be involved in anythingthat we do to solve the problem
and conundrums of our currentcrises, you know name it.
You know the current electioncycle, or whatever, is always
going to be framed around whiteChristian nationalism, and so
(06:28):
that's why I'm drawn to what youall are doing, because we're
all in religious studies invarious ways, or either in the
academic study of religion or insome aspect of religion, and
I'm wondering how you deal withissues of white Christian
supremacy or Christiannationalism in your own way from
(06:55):
a you know, a variety from yourvarieties of points of view.
Right, it's always at top ofmind for us.
I see it in the news cycleevery single day, and yet I
don't see many people talkingabout it at its fundamental root
.
Speaker 2 (07:13):
And also maybe some of you could elaborate on how
Soulforce came about.
Yeah, yeah, that would be veryhelpful for our listening
audience.
Maybe you could start with Ola.
Speaker 4 (07:30):
Yeah, I'd love to tell you a little bit about
Soulforce came out from areligious right background into
a public eye and fear to saythat one could be both queer and
Christian at the same time,that that was possible, that
(07:53):
they were examples of livinginto the idea that all of us are
made in the image of the divineand therefore all of us have a
right to human dignity and toour religion or our spirituality
.
And so 25 years ago there wasan important book written called
Strangers that Gave, which wasone of the first mainstream
(08:14):
books that came out about beingboth gay and Christian in the US
and got a lot of press becauseour founder had been a
ghostwriter for Jerry Falwelland some of the other folks on
the religious right and themoral majority at that time.
So that's how we started.
Then we had a section of abouta decade where groups of young
people would be coming togetherand their allies, but mostly
(08:38):
LGBT youth, would come togetherand ride buses all around the
country for three months at atime, living together and
visiting Christian collegecampuses and showing up into
spaces physically and sayinghere we are, we exist, we are
part of this faith, we are partof this tradition and we belong,
(08:59):
and would often get arrestedbecause they were on private
property and campuses wouldentirely shut down.
It was called a huge thing andyet all these years later, we're
still hearing.
In fact, just yesterday I wasspeaking with someone who was
telling me about how Soulforcecame to her undergraduate and
that was the beginning of herprocess of coming to terms with
(09:19):
her own orientation.
So that was a very beautifultime.
We also had a period where wedid a lot of public actions at
Christian denominations andCatholic denominations at the
Vatican, at the Southern BaptistConvention, at the Superdome in
New Orleans, and we would goand make this kind of public,
(09:41):
what shouldn't be a protest butturned into a protest of just
saying we are also Christian.
So Catholics getting deniedcommunion at the Vatican, at the
US Conference of Bishopsbecause of being gay, folks at
the Southern Baptist Conventiongetting arrested because those
folks were LGBT, and trying tojust name spiritual violence as
(10:02):
it had happened to thempersonally, and trying to just
name spiritual violence as ithad happened to them personally
and being able to do that withreally important figures at the
time, like Billy Porter, likeGandhi's granddaughter, like
Martin Luther King Jr's daughterfolks like that.
We have some really greatlegends who stood alongside of
us back in those days, and nowwe're working on the ideologies,
(10:24):
exactly what you were talkingabout, about the roots of what
is this Christianity that hasmade legitimate and seemingly
okay so many horrors across time.
And so now we're trying to getat those deeper, foundational
issues of why is it that we havefolks who are complicit with
systems of domination?
(10:44):
Why is it that we have folks whoare complicit with systems of
domination?
Why do we have folks who cannotconceive of reparations or
returning indigenous land?
What is the moral ideologybehind that that somehow told us
that this is okay?
Would all of us know at a humanright, at a human level, that
no one has the right to takesomeone else's body or land, or
(11:05):
culture or language for theirown gain and for their own
profit?
We know that, just as humanbeings cannot be correct.
So what is the contorted andtwisted language of religion in
this case Christianity thatallows folks to believe that at
one point and continue to becomplicit with it as we move
forward into the future?
So that's what sabotaging whiteChristian supremacy is about.
(11:27):
It's about religion that hasbeen co-opted and stolen and put
on the sheep's clothing ofChristianity in order to benefit
white supremacy, systems ofpower and domination,
imperialism, capitalism, thosekinds of things.
Speaker 2 (11:41):
Well, I expect that you had not been.
The Doctrine of Discovery hadnot been part of this original
discourse.
So how has that knowledgeaffected your movement of?
Speaker 4 (11:56):
colonization so many generations ago, and I would
love for maybe Nadia Ocarina totalk a little bit about that,
because it was in the last fewyears, the last three years in
fact, that we have reallyfocused more on Latin America,
(12:18):
having so much of our teamcoming from Latin America and
first generation in the UnitedStates.
And so I think that thatdiscourse around colonization
and really honing in we hadtouched on it before when
talking about chattel slaveryactually, and the papal bulls
that came before the authorizedchattel slavery, that then made
their way into the doctrine ofdiscovery around land but it
(12:40):
really has been a centerpiece ofour work in the last few years
as we have spent more and moretime working with folks in Latin
America.
Speaker 5 (12:49):
Nadia, what do you think history and see how, as
all social, social movements do,the more that we started or the
(13:11):
more, the more that peoplestarted confronting like social
movements involved and our ideasare on our understanding of the
.
The roots of the problem aremore clear and I do believe that
at the beginning there was morenot just in so forth.
In general, progressivereligious, ish or faith um
(13:38):
oriented efforts were were veryinterested in like this approach
of there.
We can be Christians and gayand we like a lot of focus on
the clover passages of the Bible, a lot of trying to legitimize
themselves and their existence,which makes a lot of sense
(14:01):
because they will.
There were being targeted, sothere was a lot of sense because
they were being targeted.
So there was a lot of likeconfronting those arguments and
saying, no, we are worthy, weare important, we have something
to say.
And the more the movement grew,I think the analysis became more
(14:24):
like but who are you to saywho's worthy or why am I
supposed to explain myself forthis?
And then I think the element ofparasitic relationship between
religion and power became theroute that we had to approach if
(14:54):
we wanted to talk about queerpeople and faith, but also all
all the other marginalizedcommunities that have been left
behind and that have been, yeah,like, like killed for their
otherness because they do notfeel the the sacred idea of what
(15:20):
god is, that sacred idea thatis co-opted by power.
So I think right now, our workin Soulforce is way more
invested in understanding thosesystems of power and not trying
to make ourselves morerespectable for those powers.
(15:43):
Yeah, and I think, as Alba wassaying, talking about that, in
Latin America, talking aboutfaith in Latin America needs to
be accompanied by a very biganalysis of imperialism and
colonization.
So when we started doing a lotof work with queer and feminist
(16:06):
theologians in Latin America andthe Caribbean, it was very
clear that spiritual violence asa form is a colonial force,
it's an imperialistic force.
It's an imperialistic force andonce we approach that theme, I
(16:31):
think there is a lot of work tobe done and that's why we love
your work so much, because thethings that you are highlighting
with your project are superconnected to what we want to say
about the weaponization ofreligion and how it has always
been in the center of how peopleare marginalized in the global
(16:56):
South.
Yeah, that's great.
Speaker 2 (17:01):
Well, I give you a lot of credit, all of you, for
working within this binarystructure of Christianity that
came and created a war betweenthese two divided forces.
Right, indigenous people didnot live that way.
They did not have thatunderstanding of living in the
(17:21):
world because it'sinteractionary with many, many
kinds of beings.
So, to stay within thestructure of the church, when it
was very much defined in thebinary of good and evil, I give
you a lot of credit.
I mean that's incredible.
But wow, it's part of theprocess and you're doing the
(17:43):
very hard work no-transcript.
Speaker 4 (18:25):
we recognize that religion was forced on us in a
particular way, at the end of aspade, at the end of a sword,
and that means that we have alot of power to reclaim the
parts of Christianity that wereforced upon us but for a lot of
our people were sources offreedom and liberation.
It was a lot of biblicalarguments that got used in
(18:47):
multiple struggles forliberation for women, for
enslaved folks, for peoplereclaiming their independence as
territories and lands acrossthe global South.
So we recognize that it's partof a legacy for many of us of
something that is liberating.
But we also recognize with thesame rigor that there is so much
that has been poisoned that weactually do have the freedom to
(19:10):
reach back to what our ancestorspracticed, to reach into the
natural world to rebuild thoserelationships, and that that's
going to look messy and notcleanly in one thing or another.
So I'm a Christian minister, Iam deeply Christian, but I also
feel like this is theconsequence of the colonizers
forcing their religion on mypeople.
It's me, this queer person whois also Christian, who is also
(19:34):
practicing earth-based healingpractices on the land here in
Appalachia, who is also movingto the global south.
So that's me, and every one ofus has our own version of that
kind of story, but what we havein common is recognizing that
Christianity has been used forgreat harm and used as a weapon,
and that is not acceptable andwe have to come together around
(19:54):
that to uncover it, to demystifyit, to decode it, so that we
can work in resistance to it andagainst it, so that we can be
on our own healing journeys,rather than attributing to
Creator all of that stuff thathas been causing us pain and
harm, exclusion, marginalizationand taking us away from our
families, our communities andour land.
Speaker 1 (20:16):
That's deep stuff.
Speaker 2 (20:17):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (20:18):
We were just in London talking to many of these
Christian groups.
I mean, we were asked to speakat St James in Piccadilly, which
is, you know, high churchAnglican, but they're also
really invested in what theycall eco-spirituality and we
(20:38):
were asked to speak about thatand indigenous perspectives and
they connected us with Adam canhelp me here with Iona community
in Northern Scotland.
There are a lot of these groupstrying to reconnect with a
Celtic sort of indigenousspirituality but are also active
(21:01):
Christian organizations orcontemplative communities that
are reconnecting with the land.
So I think, you know, we're atan interesting moment right now.
We're at a crisis moment.
Of course it's 100 degreesoutside and for most of us,
(21:23):
which is very, that's justtotally weird for us here in
northern new york state, um.
But so I think people aretrying to trying to.
I I would say it this way, andthis is echoing what nadia was
saying earlier it's like we'reat a moment where activism is
(21:44):
meeting.
You know the academy, you know.
So we're trying to have a kindof engaged scholarship that is
not just, you know, enamoredwith archives for the sake of
archives, but trying toilluminate how these systems of
(22:06):
domination were formed andcreated in the first place so
that that can be.
We can then, you know, reflecton how that has impacted our
world today and continues to,you know, you know so.
(22:30):
So I mean, um, I see you as, uh, I feel soul forces is somehow
already uh, maybe way beforethese other movements, who knows
but there there are these umback going back to the 70s with
finhorn and other other groupsin scotland, in the uk, that are
trying to connect or reconnectwith this sense of being part of
the world or part of the land.
Speaker 2 (22:49):
And make sense of these systems of domination?
How do you work through it?
How do you see your way throughthis?
Speaker 1 (22:57):
Yeah, Is there a way to?
Speaker 2 (23:00):
see through it.
Yeah, these are seriousquestions.
Yeah, we are To see through it.
Speaker 1 (23:02):
Yeah, these are serious questions, so I'll
invite Karina to say somethingYou're aching to get in here.
Speaker 6 (23:22):
Yeah, phil, her audio is having an issue.
Let me unmute it.
Karina, I think you should beable to talk now.
No, that's just a hand raise,yeah, okay.
(23:44):
No, that's just a hand raise,yeah, okay.
So, karina, I see it's sayingthat your headphones are plugged
in.
Maybe try plugging andunplugging your headphones or
something.
Speaker 1 (24:02):
Play with the volume.
Speaker 6 (24:04):
Yeah, because it's showing an input there.
Say something no, no, okay, allright, karina, in the top right
(24:26):
corner you'll see where it sayscall settings.
Click on that and try changingaudio input and see if that
works.
Speaker 2 (24:42):
Did it work.
Speaker 3 (24:43):
Yes, yes, okay, thank you very much for the help.
What I wanted to say is that,thinking our relationship
north-south, being there inDecember listening more about
(25:03):
the Doctrine of Discovery, it'samazing how the same thing
happened to our people in allplaces and how this weaponized
Christianity is at the bottom ofthe.
This weaponized Christianity isat the bottom of the conquering
, colonizing system strategy.
(25:25):
And something I enjoy about thework we do in Soulforce is that
we can be in a conference withyou in all these very complex
(25:47):
analysis of the subject.
But then we are with people inour events who, many of them,
are people who struggle withunderstanding what religion did
to them and also struggling with, um, yeah, just questioning if
they are, if they can practice aspirituality that will not, uh,
(26:08):
damage them again, that willnot be violent with them.
And from there, also achallenge for us as social
scientists is how do we keepthis conversation that is so
complex in a level that isunderstandable, that it's, um,
(26:30):
full of empathy, uh, for theterms that people bring to the
conversation, because they willuse colonized language of
religion.
They will talk to you in thecategories they know, which are
talking about sin, talking aboutguilt, talking about the need
(26:50):
of confessing their fears andfor some people this might look
like oh come on, you're sobehind in understanding, I mean,
or how you are so into thesereligious things.
If you're a rational person,but being grown in latin america
inside of these churches, youcan understand how hard it's to
(27:15):
move from these places, not onlyrationally but emotionally,
because the scars are new, thefear is new and this fear, even
though I read something from 200or 300 years ago on the
strategies they use with otherpeople, I can feel it in me in
(27:36):
2025, I mean 24, 24 how the samestrategies just change its
forms.
But it's a very successfulstrategy in terms of dominating
and in terms of continue in acolonization of ideology.
So what we try to do, it's awork that is very complex, which
(28:00):
is working ideology at thelevel of people, at the level of
this conversation that may be,with, one day, with very
conservative people of churcheswho are interested in maybe
growing in their criticalthinking about religion, but
other day it's a conversationwith lawyers and psychologists
(28:24):
who are trying to help, uh,survivors of violence, but they
don't know how to listen to thembecause they don't speak the
religious language they don'tknow how to talk about this fear
and and sometimes this issomething where we professional
in social sciences need to comeand, and I think because of our
(28:49):
professions and disciplines andand all this time we invest in
trying to understand this, it'sour part to walk to those places
.
And when I say walk, I'm talkingabout how do we design
strategies, and that's somethingI love about Soulforce that we
are all the time thinking howwill this that is so complex and
(29:10):
intense can enter aconversation, that is language
that can be understood by a lotof people in different contexts,
and I find that as a hugechallenge for me as a person in
social sciences.
Sometimes it's easier to write apaper than try to think of
(29:32):
strategies to connect withpeople not only in a rational
way, but to develop this empathyfor what colonization and
violence has done in us and thatthis is happening here in the
South or in the North, becauseyou also have a lot of damage
there, a lot of colonizationthere, and then, at the same
(29:56):
time, a lot of the colony comesfrom you to the south, and so we
are in this huge matrix ofviolence.
But I think this healing we tryto do might help understand
(30:24):
each other and try to developthe strategies that can
dismantle this huge lie that iscovered by these holy sacred
jurisdiction that can it's sohard to judge?
Uh, because there are not evensystems that are ready to enter
this into a with the name thatit has.
That it's violence, not.
Speaker 2 (30:32):
It cannot be named like that no, we have a whole
history of bad relationships.
Some people take a whole lifeto recover from a bad
relationship with one person,and we're talking about an
institution that made us allobedient.
There's no real relationshipthere.
(30:55):
And then they laden us withguilt because of the diseases
that were planted in all ourterritories North and South
America and that we were dyingbecause of our faulty creator,
you know.
And so we're out of fear.
Fear was established in a veryprofound way at the very
(31:15):
beginning, using religion anddisease to pull us into the
belief that their god wassuperior.
And that's, it's a horriblerelationship.
Talk about generational trauma.
The whole mindset is is rootedin fear and guilt.
Yeah, it's, it's almost animpossible task.
(31:38):
Sometimes you cannot recoverfrom that and you need to
divorce from that situation.
But you, you know, I guess, canwork through it.
But you know it's not a rockyroad, whichever way you look at
it.
Speaker 1 (31:55):
Before Nadia jumps in , I wanted to say too that one
of the liberating factors ofdoing Doctrine of Discovery work
we've been doing it about 20years now and having these
conferences and what I find isthat all of our students, all of
the indigenous peoples weencounter and we were just at a
(32:17):
national or internationalconference of Indigenous peoples
in Norway and they're alldealing with trauma at various
levels.
I mean it's personal, I mean,and the thing about trauma is
you can it's very easilypersonalized in a way that you
know it's somehow a personaldeficiency or something wrong
(32:41):
with me or something like that.
And and when we talk about thedoctrine of discovery, there's
something liberating about thefact that it's not any.
It's not your fault, right thatyou have, you have these
struggles in your life, rightthat these are not things.
This is not a worldview thatyou created or your, you know is
(33:06):
somehow your create your own,you know personal hell, but
rather it's something that hasbeen indoctrinated into all of
us in various ways.
I mean, what's striking to me isthat in our department religion
, in our religion departmentmany of our grad students are
(33:28):
trying to recover from theirreligious upbringing.
You know, I mean, and somehow,you know, thinking about
religion and putting it in akind of historical context of
this, you know, violent way ofthinking, helps them, you know,
(33:49):
grapple with their own trauma.
We find that people can cometogether around the doctrine of
discovery.
It's appropriate for settler,colonial people to be talking
about as well as indigenouspeople.
So we have, you know, there's akind of a meeting of the minds
(34:10):
around these issues of thedoctrine of discovery and it's
just becoming more and moreprevalent as we, you know,
continue these podcasts.
But, nadia, you wanted to jumpin yeah, thank you.
Speaker 5 (34:25):
I well, first, thank you for what you're saying and I
like this image that you were,that we were saying sandy about
their relationship right, wehave a relationship with this.
Well, we think we saying Sandyabout the relationship right, we
have a relationship with this.
Well, we think we have arelationship with this
institution, but it's a veryconditional, it's a very violent
(34:50):
relationship.
There's a very big distancebetween who we are and how that
those institutions can, canembrace it, right, and there is
not like there is a very violentrelationship with the
institutions but at the sametime, yes, and at the same time,
(35:13):
we have deep, deeprelationships with the people
that control, like, are a partof those institutions.
And when we talk to survivorsof spiritual violence, the
people that that that hurt themare are not an institution, are
their families, are pastors thatthat were like, like family to
(35:38):
them.
It's this very complexunderstanding of how we always
talk about spiritual violenceand how this is so systemic and
structural and it's a systemthat is everywhere and it's
centuries old and it'severywhere and it's centuries
(36:00):
old and it's also intimate.
It's the most intimate thingslike.
It is both.
It is the structure, the systemthat's bigger than our
countries and it's bigger thanthe institutions and it's also
in our own bodies and itinhabits the most intimate
(36:22):
thoughts in one's own identity.
So how do we navigate thosecomplexities?
And the other thing that I wasgoing to say, and so that we can
hop on to the topic of ourrecent programming in Quito,
ecuador, in North Carolina, andalso we were working in Bogota,
(36:47):
colombia.
We have been working in Bogota,colombia and a lot of places in
Latin America.
When we were in Quito, we didworkshops with pastors, we did
workshops with sex workers andwe did workshops with midwives
from Cotacachi, from a union of41 communities in Ecuador,
(37:15):
indigenous communities inEcuador, indigenous communities
and specifically the sex workersand the midwives indigenous
midwives.
They were Catholic.
They were very, very devoutCatholics and for us that are in
Latin America, that's notsurprised any time.
If you've ever talked to anindigenous person in Latin
(37:35):
America, catholic faith is it'sso, so, so important for their
community life, for their ownsense of selves, and it was like
those people were the ones thatwere like don't mess with God.
But also what you're sayingmakes a lot of sense, because I
(37:56):
have this story of this, thischurch that did this to me and I
would like to hear Alba talkmore about those experiences.
But in any of the workshopsthat we do, the same thing
happens.
We've been doing a lot of workwith Latinx people in the US
South.
(38:17):
Specifically, we recently didwork with a centro hispano in
North Carolina, which is anorganization that has a lot of
history of working with LatinAmerican people in the United
States that recently migrated tothe US, and in those places
(38:41):
people have deep-rooted faithLGBTQ people that, having told
God doesn't love them, they willtell you how hard they love God
and how they don't like usbeing all weird about the Bible
because it feels wrong.
And when we start talking aboutspiritual violence in this
(39:03):
perspective, when we give it alanguage, when we understand
that we cannot.
There is no Christianity inthis continent that is not
infused by blood and power.
Those are facts that peopleunderstand as facts and that is
a good way to start.
And once we start framing thatas a first step to talk about
(39:31):
these things, understanding thatthe complexity and
contradictions are there, peopleare super receptive and they
start bringing deep hurt andstories that they never thought
they could talk out loud, theynever thought they could
question.
Even so, yeah, all of this tosay is super complex we are.
(39:55):
We're still battling thatcontradiction every day in our
work and in our own lives.
Speaker 1 (40:03):
That's very helpful.
Speaker 2 (40:04):
Well, at Onondaga, of course no indigenous community
could practice their ceremoniesright and you talk about.
You know we're taught thatchurch and state is divided, but
indeed it's not.
You cannot talk aboutcolonialism without talking
about Christianity.
And Christianity came in firstand changed the whole dynamic,
(40:28):
did not allow indigenous peopleto meet privately.
They're communal people, youknow.
At Onondaga they have a rigorousceremonial schedule.
Every single month they gatherfor funerals, for weddings, for
celebratory anything down there,and it's not in a church.
(40:51):
But when the church wasprevalent down there they were
not permitted to meet at all.
They could only meet in thechurch.
They had to be obedient to thepastor of the church.
They were fed the most food atchurch.
So of course everyone wouldgather to the church and they
(41:12):
survived the onslaught ofcolonization and the church by
being together.
Of course their heart is inthat.
The heart is with each otherand it's really hard to say it's
not the church that brought youtogether.
You're indigenous.
It's these long ancienttraditions that existed
(41:32):
thousands and thousands of yearsbefore the church came in and
reoriented you to somethingoutside of this earth.
You know.
Speaker 1 (41:43):
I really appreciate that, nadia, because the US
Catholic bishops and I don'tknow if you're aware of this or
this might be fair to bring thisup, but just last week the US
Catholic bishops, who we didn'tthink were paying attention to
(42:03):
indigenous issues at all, cameout with an apology for their
role in, you know, nativeAmerican boarding schools, and
there's a long document.
It's about 50 pages long.
I'm working through it, butessentially it is a document
(42:23):
that addresses indigenouscatholic people.
Now, when we were in thevatican, we were trying to get
them um, and and the harms thatthe church had caused to
indigenous, native american I'mtalking about you, you know,
within the United States,indigenous or Native American
people who converted toCatholicism and then were
(42:47):
subjected to boarding schools.
So it's kind of a particulargroup that they're speaking to,
and when we were in the Vaticanlast year, we were advocating
for for the Vatican to speak tonon-Christian indigenous peoples
as well, right, but Iappreciate what you're saying
(43:14):
and I'm wondering theapplicability of this statement,
wondering the applicability ofthis statement that came out
last week to Latin America, youknow, because they are speaking
to their own community in someway.
Right, the bishops are trying toregather, or are they trying to
(43:35):
reform the church?
I mean, what is going on here,I guess, is my question, like,
are they trying to make amendsfor, you know the past violence
to their own people?
Are they trying to, you know,reform the church?
Is it risk management, you knowto, basically, you know,
(43:57):
because the church is bleedingout money in you know sexual
abuse cases in all kinds of ways, right?
So I mean, I'm aware this justcame out and you know it's
probably not something you'velooked at.
Yet issue of the church tryingto, the Catholic Church trying
(44:17):
to address these past wrongsseems to be fashionable in the
way over the last year or so.
I don't know if anyone wants toaddress that.
I would like oh, I'm sorry.
Speaker 3 (44:38):
I would like to give credit to that to the people.
I mean the Buddha impression onthe church, because normally
what I see with these hugeinstitutions is that you see the
fights of people for years andyears trying to make them
acknowledge what they did.
This pressure comes in a hugeway and it's good to see this
(45:05):
possibility of questioningreligion.
For example, when we work withChristianized indigenous people,
first thing they feel free todo in our gatherings is to speak
(45:27):
up about what has happened withreligious leadership in their
places, and normally we have alot of stories of abuse, sexual
abuse and a lot of hiddenstories that cannot be named.
So I think something we asSoulforce can do is to open
(45:50):
these spaces where it is okaythat you question the authority
of religion.
It is okay to say, say this isnot okay, this is, or okay, well
, you say the bible says that weare theologians.
Show me where in the bible youcan support it, because we're
not playing games here.
We care about the bible andthis is why we started the bible
in a serious way.
(46:10):
So if you come here and justtell me this, show me where in
the Bible you're saying this issupport.
And I think this possibility ofgiving people a chance to
question something that has beensacred for so many centuries
(46:32):
shifts something in people andthat can lead you to question
other things, other authorities.
But and this is the place wherewe understand spirituality is
the right of people.
People can practice whateverthey want and explore their
traditions.
The problem we have is that thecolonization established one way
(46:55):
to do it, one institution orcertain form of leadership that
is the only one authorized to bethe religious authority in the
world.
So I think we are dangerous andsomehow our strategy is
sabotaging, because we areinviting people to question that
(47:17):
and, besides that, to whisperin their ears.
And what if the most sacredspirit in the world wishes this
for you, that you question allthis violence that came in the
form of a sacred being that isbasically manipulating them for
(47:37):
critically think, for reading,for looking for other sources,
(48:03):
for practicing other traditionsthat are not Christianity, for
example, or to practice aChristianity like the one we are
promoting in our events, whichis a church called Queerly
Beloved.
How about if you are a queerperson and if you are a drag and
you are the main presentationduring the religious service we
(48:24):
have?
That totally makes the minds ofpeople blown Like how is it
possible that we have a churchwhere we have drag queens as
part of the holy presentationand the way we celebrate our
bodies and our diversity?
(48:44):
So that's something I think isvery powerful and, at the same
time, something that some peopleor some huge institutions might
fear about us.
Oh wow.
Speaker 1 (48:57):
Yeah, shape the foundations, then Absolutely.
Speaker 4 (49:01):
And I think there's something really important about
just naming Like I want to justre-amplify what both Karina and
Nadia said what our mainstrategy is in the world and all
the things that we do whetherit's in Eastern Africa, latin
America, the US, south, withindigenous folks, with sex
workers, with groups of pastorsis we give a name to the
(49:25):
violence that happens not onlyto our bodies, because many of
us know the history ofcolonization.
Many of us know that that was aviolent moment but we leave it
in the past as that part of thepast thing that happened.
But when we talk aboutspiritual violence and what
happens in the wounds that wemay not be able to see 500 years
(49:45):
later, or the wounds that wemay not like maybe our families
didn't actually physically hitus but they calling us
abomination or telling us thatwe were outside the will of God,
or for folks to practice otherforms of spirituality, which
crap we were doing, rich crap ina negative way because
something people use that in apositive way now as a
reclamation.
(50:06):
But to like those things arealso painful.
You know the idea that wordsnever hurt me is a lie.
We know that words are veryimportant, especially when they
have the full force of the stateand the military behind them to
enforce those kinds of laws,those kinds of rules.
So it's not just that thechurch didn't allow people to
(50:26):
gather, or that the churchdidn't allow folks to speak
their indigenous language or dotheir practices.
It was, as they had, the fullpower of the military behind
those rules and threats.
Right, so it's not just thatthe preacher said, it's that we
know that behind that is anentire system of power and
violence.
(50:47):
And so when we talk about theharm, that is actually violence
that happens to our spirits,where we can't see what Nadia is
talking about, our mostintimate thoughts, where we
think is this punishment fromGod because of the blank thing
that is, a violence that isequal and often even more
pervasive and long-lasting thana physical bruise or cut or even
(51:10):
gunshot wound?
Because we start tellingourselves the same narrative, we
repeat the colonizer's messages.
So that's how I still seecolonization showing up now,
generations later, even if wefix everything, which is not
really possible we still havethe full weight of generations
who have been told these thingsabout our peoples and about our
(51:31):
practices and about our ways andabout our knowings and about
our bodies that we have to carryand work on burying and
composting and recreating whatthis version post-colonization
looks like, because we can't goback to before those times, and
I think that's part of ourstrategy is just naming.
This is what spiritual violenceis given immutable rights to
(51:54):
self-determination, to dignity,to peace, to love, to protection
, to just life period.
(52:21):
Whenever that is attacked in thename of God or in the name of
Creator or in the name of whatthe Bible says.
That is spiritual violence andit happens at every level of
society, from the biggestinstitutions, from the biggest
governments, to what your familymembers said about your
spiritual practices, your gender, your sexuality, your marriage
(52:45):
choices, your children, whateverthose things are a violence
that enters our bodies.
And because it has the fullweight of the hegemonic religion
and the full weight of entirenations and transnational powers
, then that is a violence thatreaches us, to our core, that we
(53:08):
have to and we have to hear.
Speaker 6 (53:11):
Excuse me, all hell breakers and we have to hear it.
Excuse me All hell breakers,give it a second we got
everything.
Hey, phil, you're coughing,muted the mic and Nadia wants to
(53:38):
jump in.
Speaker 5 (53:42):
You're on mute, Phil and Sandy.
I don't know if this is, Ithink.
Nadia can just jump in.
Speaker 4 (53:47):
Yeah, go for it.
Speaker 5 (53:48):
Nadia, I just wanted to say that I think what you
brought up, phil, about theapologies and how the
institutions are reacting to ourorganizing and people's
questioning, is super importantand we always have to be aware
(54:14):
of how they're presenting it,how the language they're using
and, as you said, who are theytrying to convince, who are they
targeting, who are they talkingto.
(54:47):
I do believe that one of themost important characteristics
of white Christian adapt andmutate and change and transform,
and because of that,marginalized communities
(55:08):
everywhere have learned to beexperts in suspicion and experts
in like this act of questioning, like you're saying the right
things but you're saying it tothese people in this specific
time and I don't believe youright, or you're doing this
other thing while you areapologizing, so I don't believe
(55:31):
you.
So I think that is, on itself,a spiritual act of reclamation
and survival and resilience andit is also what has kept us
alive queer people, people ofcolor, indigenous communities.
It is also a problem for us associal scientists or people that
(55:58):
do research on religion to seehow much that shifts.
For example, in Latin America, alot of the liberatory, like a
lot of organizations that aredoing what many would consider
decolonizing work have roots inChristianity, catholic
(56:19):
institutions that have beenshifting and there are also
dynamics on Catholic and thenevangelical things that come
from the United States and thenevangelical things that come
from the United States, I'mtalking about Latin America in
particular and how that shiftsthe power dynamics and which
(56:41):
powers are talking to the peopleand how people interact with
those approaches, faithapproaches, and it's
ever-changing with thoseapproaches, faith approaches and
, if ever changing, it issomething that those of us who
study religion need to grapplewith.
But, as Alba was saying, wewill keep naming the things, we
(57:08):
will keep creating allianceswith researchers and survivors
and organizations and activistsand confront it.
We will keep being suspicious.
We will keep creating our ownfaith, spiritual practices that
feel safe and that feelliberatory.
(57:30):
Yeah, I think.
Speaker 1 (57:37):
Maybe you could spend a few minutes on what you're
doing now, what you've donerecently, and then what you're
planning to do in the future,that is, soul force or
individually or whatever, justso our listeners know where soul
force is and where you'reheaded.
Speaker 4 (57:56):
Maybe I'll start just by talking a little bit about
our spiritual resource library,if that's okay.
We have a free downloadable onour website, soulforceorg.
We have an entire theologicalresource library that really
tackle particularly gender andsexuality issues from within a
(58:19):
Christian context, and SouthernAfricans as well, and our
partners there have asked totranslate and have translated
with their local translatorsthese resources that tackle some
(58:39):
of the most ongoing questionslike what is the truth about
Sodom and Gomorrah in theirgender diversity in the Bible,
the truth, or what you need toknow about the Bible in our.
In the Spanish language, thetitle sounds like what they
still haven't told you about theBible, which just basically
gives some more context forunderstanding that some of the
(58:59):
things that have been lifted upas untouchable or sacred also
have an entire history of wherepowerful men were sitting in
rooms making decisions aboutwhich books get put where, what
translators' decisions arearound, how they gender things
like the Holy Spirit or how theyinterpret different words from
across many languages acrossmany generations.
(59:21):
So I would highly recommend forfolks who are interested in that
kind of work of understanding,especially if you're a Christian
, to understand where our faithcomes from so that you recognize
what pieces of that are oursand what pieces of that have
been imposed in some of the mostintense, deep and most
spiritually maturing work thatwe can do as people of faith and
(59:44):
for those folks who arefighting white Christian
supremacy.
Because of the struggles forhuman rights and for human
dignity across many differentsectors, we find that the
resource library is useful tounderstand what you're having
conversations about with yourChristian colleagues or your.
Christian opponents as often asoften as the case, unfortunately
(01:00:04):
and Karina and I and anothertheologian from Colombia wrote a
very important book for us, a150 page book, which is also
available for free download onthe internet, which touches a
little bit on the Doctrine ofDiscovery actually it's
currently only in Spanish, butit introduces five concepts, and
those five concepts areChristian supremacy, spiritual
(01:00:29):
violence, religious abuse,spiritual terrorism and
spiritual trauma.
And for each one of those we gothrough a little bit about what
the definition is, some historyaround it, a real-life, true
story of somebody who hasexperienced that as an example
to see how the concepts work.
And then we have a sectionwhere we talk about how that
(01:00:51):
moves in our body.
We talk about how that moves inour body and our third person,
dr Puli she worked on bodyexercises of how we move that
through our bodies as we'reprocessing memories and these
concepts and these stories asthey come up.
And so that is part of that bookwith sections about what are
(01:01:13):
the paths to healing.
How do we start that?
Karina has sections in eachchapter about what are some of
the first steps to move fromthat kind of colonized religion
and harmful experiences and howit's in the process of healing,
which is lifelong processes, asyou said, Sandy.
Processes, as you said Sandy.
(01:01:35):
And now, right now, we'reworking on that same book in
English and adapting it for a USaudience because, of course,
the colonizers were a little bitdifferent, the religion and its
expression was a little bitdifferent, and we're kind of
moving that through.
We'll still be from a LatinAmerican perspective, but we
really want our Englishaudiences, and particularly all
of us who come from LatinAmerica and have migrated north,
to be able to find more peaceand find ourselves in this kind
(01:01:58):
of clash of different kinds ofcultures, understand a little
bit more about where we comefrom and what colonization and
religion looks like from thatperspective.
So, that should be forthcoming,also sponsored by the Henry Luce
Foundation, also sponsored bythe Henry Luce Foundation.
So we were excited about that.
And then we have a very biggathering happening in October
(01:02:18):
in Mexico City where we'rebringing together Latin American
, feminist and queer theologians, both from Latin America and
from the diaspora here in theUnited States, to have
conversations about weaponizedreligion, spiritual violence.
Conversations about weaponizedreligion, spiritual violence,
particularly as it applies toLGBT folks and women and other
marginalized communities, andwe're excited about what's going
(01:02:42):
to happen coming out of that.
Speaker 1 (01:02:45):
So, sidebar, if you have a kind of shortish version
of the book that's coming out,we'd like to, or we'll.
We'll announce it on our list,certainly, and then also, if you
have a, an announcement for theconference in Mexico City will
certainly spread that around.
(01:03:06):
Well, I mean, I've got you knowa few students of mine would be
very interested in that it's areally special experience and we
are encouraging students tocome join.
Speaker 4 (01:03:17):
Some of the biggest names in feminist theological
work in Latin America will bejoining us.
Maricel Mena, who doesAfro-Colombian biblical study in
Colombia, will be there with us.
Several people from Mexico andmore that we haven't confirmed
yet, so it's a very uniqueopportunity for students in
(01:03:40):
particular, where we're mostlykeeping it for folks who are
part of that community alreadyand students.
So we have done almost 70episodes of Teología sin
Vergüenza, this podcast inSpanish on queer and feminist
theology, and so those are thefolks that will be the primary
people coming to the event.
But we're also opening space forstudents because we think it's
(01:04:03):
really, really important forthem to kind of see.
because of the language andcolonizer language, a lot of us
who are Latinx in the US wenever get to see what is
happening in the theologicalsphere both indigenous theology,
afro descendiente theology andqueer and feminist theology in
Latin America, because thosethings are published in Spanish
(01:04:28):
and we often don't have accessto that language anymore.
Even if it's a colonizedlanguage, we still don't have
access to that because we'veassimilated into US culture,
where English was the languageour families took up for
survival purposes.
So we would be very excited tohost students who are willing to
come.
It will be in Spanish, so folkswill need to have some access
(01:04:49):
to Spanish, but it feels like aonce-in-a-lifetime opportunity
for me and I've been doing thisfor 10 years and I am just
beside myself with pleasurebecause, as far as we know, this
hasn't happened before.
Wow.
Speaker 2 (01:05:02):
I guess I'd like to mention you were talking about
energies, these negativeenergies through your body and
some of this work you've beendoing, and it just brought to
mind that we're talking aboutspirit and the very food you
know, we understand we'recomprised of the earth and
(01:05:25):
spirituality is a materialreality, and the food that you
ingest does a lot of the work ofmoving, you know, this negative
energy through your body andit's this re-engagement that is
not so much going back topre-existence but it's
re-engaging with the naturalworld as well and connecting to
(01:05:47):
the regeneration that createsour life and all life on the
planet.
So just something to you know,think about you know, that's why
we have ceremonies and dancesfor certain, like vegetables or
animals or plants, right?
(01:06:07):
Because, it's a very real thing.
I mean, it's all medicine, allthe foods that we ingest in the
air.
That's all I wanted to add.
Speaker 5 (01:06:22):
Just a quick fun fact , angel Mendez, which is a
Mexican queer theologian.
He does a lot of work aroundqueer theology, body pleasure,
and his other big area of studyis food.
Is food and desire?
Of course it's, and and he's adancer, he's a theologian and a
(01:06:44):
dancer.
So I was just highlighting howit is so connected.
And queer theology, queer andfeminist theologiesologies have
a big history of understanding,approaching the body in its
material and spiritual realitiesand understanding pleasure.
(01:07:08):
There's a lot to be said abouthow this white christian
supremacy, weaponization ofreligion have targeted pleasure
and bodies and how we look, howwe act, how we move um and, yeah
, just a quick thing, about howthe food we eat, the land we
(01:07:30):
walk on um, all of those thingsare connected through our bodies
and have been domesticated bypower.
Yeah, so it is connected.
Fruits and Teologías enVergüenza are Latin American
(01:07:51):
theology, queer and feministtheology program our logo, our
fruits, let me have, oh, fruitsfrom Latin America, specifically
from different parts.
So it is, it is connected, justa little.
Speaker 2 (01:08:10):
I think the colonizer understood a lot of that too,
because they ruined our fields,our indigenous crops, and
replaced the basic corn withtheir white flour, Because they
knew it would change ourceremonies and our way of
connecting with the earth.
Speaker 4 (01:08:29):
That was impacted all over South America and North
America and they already knewhow this effectively made people
sick and disrupted culture atits core, which is part of why
some of the work that we do thatgives people feels like it
gives people permission which ofcourse we don't need permission
(01:09:00):
to reach back into our own ways, which of course we don't need
permission to reach back.
That our people ate, that is asuperfood and it is a choice
(01:09:27):
between whether or not we wantto choose to eat amaranth as
opposed to other grains, and somaking some of those choices
that for some of us feelsunfamiliar is part of the ways
that we sabotage Christiansupremacy, because sometimes
people feel like you have to dothis whole re-envisioning of
yourself and your world.
But there are these small actsof disobedience and these small
acts of rebeldia or rebellionthat we do in our daily lives,
(01:09:49):
that help reorient ourselves towhat it feels like to be in our
full bodies and to try to healand calm some of those ancient
narratives that tell us that weare in danger if we don't obey
wow, yeah, thank you for that.
Speaker 1 (01:10:07):
Yeah, thank you.
Um, I think that's a good placeto wrap it up.
We could go on for a very longtime, but we're trying the
patience of our listeners.
So thank you, Karina, Nadia andAlba for Oops.
Thank you.
I'm a faculty person in religion at Syracuse
University, also core faculty inNative American Indigenous
Studies, and founding directorof the Scano Great Law Peace
Center.
Speaker 2 (00:11):
And hi, I'm Sandy Bigtree, a citizen of the Mohawk
Nation at Alpha Sosni, and I'mon the board of the Indigenous
Values Initiative as well as onthe academic collaborative for
the Scano Great Log.
Speaker 1 (00:26):
Welcome, yeah, and today we're coming to you from
the heartland of theHaudenosaunee Onondaga Nation
Territory and we're beingsponsored by Henry Luth
Foundation.
Today we're really happy to beable to bring you a conversation
with Soul Force.
We have three guests, threevery important guests that have
(00:51):
been doing remarkable work invarious ways, and we just want
to introduce you all to whatthey're doing and how they are
changing and composting thewhite Christian supremacy.
So we just had a conversationabout that and maybe we'll
(01:14):
elaborate, but we were broughttogether through the Henry Luce
Foundation.
Dean Emily Towns and Dr TheresaSmallwood introduced us all and
we've been trying to coordinateand get this conversation
(01:34):
together ever since, but please,maybe one at a time, you could
introduce yourselves and thework you're doing at SoulForce,
starting with you, alba.
Speaker 4 (01:52):
Thank you so much for having us on the podcast.
We're delighted to be here.
We were so grateful to be incommunity on Haudenosaunee
territory earlier end of lastyear, so we are grateful to be
here.
I am Reverend Alba Onofrio.
I'm the executive director ofSoulforce and one of the
(02:12):
founding co-founders of Teologíasin Vergüenza, which is a queer
and feminist podcast aboutChristian theology at the
margins, and we have been aroundfor about 25 years at the
margins.
And we have been around forabout 25 years.
I am currently on Cherokee landdown here in Appalachia, which
is where I grew up, and we arean organization that has been
(02:35):
working to end the political andreligious discrimination and
oppression of LGBT people for 25years, and we're excited to be
with y'all this time.
Speaker 2 (02:49):
Thank you.
Speaker 5 (02:52):
I can go next.
Speaker 2 (02:54):
Yeah, thank you Hi everyone.
Speaker 5 (02:56):
I'm a huge fan of the podcast, so I'm very excited to
be here.
My name is Nadia Arellano.
I am from Mexico City, born andraised.
I am the associate director atSouth Force and I also do a lot
of the Latin Americanprogramming work I have been
(03:28):
involved in.
I've been studying theologyChristian theology and, in
particular, feminist and queerinjustice, the different
languages it uses to oppress andhow it weaponizes things that
are important for people,specifically, spirituality and
faith.
So I am very excited to be hereand, yeah, thank you for having
(04:12):
me Welcome.
Thank you.
Speaker 1 (04:16):
And Karina.
Speaker 3 (04:19):
Yeah, can you hear me there yet?
Speaker 2 (04:22):
Yes, oh yes.
Speaker 3 (04:23):
Okay, thank you.
So my name is Karina Vargas, Iam from Costa Rica and at
Soulforce I coordinate in theInstitute on Spiritual Violence,
healing and Social Change and Ihave a formation in theology
and psychology.
I have a formation in theologyand psychology and sabotaging
(05:08):
hegemonic religion is somethingI connect a lot with and there
are reasons why, culturally, itneeds to be done in this way,
but we can talk about that laterand I want to say that I
enjoyed a lot the time we had inSyracuse last December and I'm
very excited to be part of thisconversation this morning.
Thank you very much.
Speaker 1 (05:17):
Thank you all for coming.
Yeah, it was.
Yeah.
Last December was somethingwe're still sort of thinking
about, grappling with, wonderingwhat the next steps are.
I mean, it was an incrediblydiverse group of people.
We were really gratified somany people turned out to come
(05:41):
and really participate in inthis conversation, which is so.
What I appreciate about soulforce is that, um, and also my
discipline in general history ofreligions is that religion has,
religion is the problem, andreligion uh, religious studies
(06:04):
has to be involved in anythingthat we do to solve the problem
and conundrums of our currentcrises, you know name it.
You know the current electioncycle, or whatever, is always
going to be framed around whiteChristian nationalism, and so
(06:28):
that's why I'm drawn to what youall are doing, because we're
all in religious studies invarious ways, or either in the
academic study of religion or insome aspect of religion, and
I'm wondering how you deal withissues of white Christian
supremacy or Christiannationalism in your own way from
(06:55):
a you know, a variety from yourvarieties of points of view.
Right, it's always at top ofmind for us.
I see it in the news cycleevery single day, and yet I
don't see many people talkingabout it at its fundamental root
.
Speaker 2 (07:13):
And also maybe some of you could elaborate on how
Soulforce came about.
Yeah, yeah, that would be veryhelpful for our listening
audience.
Maybe you could start with Ola.
Speaker 4 (07:30):
Yeah, I'd love to tell you a little bit about
Soulforce came out from areligious right background into
a public eye and fear to saythat one could be both queer and
Christian at the same time,that that was possible, that
(07:53):
they were examples of livinginto the idea that all of us are
made in the image of the divineand therefore all of us have a
right to human dignity and toour religion or our spirituality
.
And so 25 years ago there wasan important book written called
Strangers that Gave, which wasone of the first mainstream
(08:14):
books that came out about beingboth gay and Christian in the US
and got a lot of press becauseour founder had been a
ghostwriter for Jerry Falwelland some of the other folks on
the religious right and themoral majority at that time.
So that's how we started.
Then we had a section of abouta decade where groups of young
people would be coming togetherand their allies, but mostly
(08:38):
LGBT youth, would come togetherand ride buses all around the
country for three months at atime, living together and
visiting Christian collegecampuses and showing up into
spaces physically and sayinghere we are, we exist, we are
part of this faith, we are partof this tradition and we belong,
(08:59):
and would often get arrestedbecause they were on private
property and campuses wouldentirely shut down.
It was called a huge thing andyet all these years later, we're
still hearing.
In fact, just yesterday I wasspeaking with someone who was
telling me about how Soulforcecame to her undergraduate and
that was the beginning of herprocess of coming to terms with
(09:19):
her own orientation.
So that was a very beautifultime.
We also had a period where wedid a lot of public actions at
Christian denominations andCatholic denominations at the
Vatican, at the Southern BaptistConvention, at the Superdome in
New Orleans, and we would goand make this kind of public,
(09:41):
what shouldn't be a protest butturned into a protest of just
saying we are also Christian.
So Catholics getting deniedcommunion at the Vatican, at the
US Conference of Bishopsbecause of being gay, folks at
the Southern Baptist Conventiongetting arrested because those
folks were LGBT, and trying tojust name spiritual violence as
(10:02):
it had happened to thempersonally, and trying to just
name spiritual violence as ithad happened to them personally
and being able to do that withreally important figures at the
time, like Billy Porter, likeGandhi's granddaughter, like
Martin Luther King Jr's daughterfolks like that.
We have some really greatlegends who stood alongside of
us back in those days, and nowwe're working on the ideologies,
(10:24):
exactly what you were talkingabout, about the roots of what
is this Christianity that hasmade legitimate and seemingly
okay so many horrors across time.
And so now we're trying to getat those deeper, foundational
issues of why is it that we havefolks who are complicit with
systems of domination?
(10:44):
Why is it that we have folks whoare complicit with systems of
domination?
Why do we have folks who cannotconceive of reparations or
returning indigenous land?
What is the moral ideologybehind that that somehow told us
that this is okay?
Would all of us know at a humanright, at a human level, that
no one has the right to takesomeone else's body or land, or
(11:05):
culture or language for theirown gain and for their own
profit?
We know that, just as humanbeings cannot be correct.
So what is the contorted andtwisted language of religion in
this case Christianity thatallows folks to believe that at
one point and continue to becomplicit with it as we move
forward into the future?
So that's what sabotaging whiteChristian supremacy is about.
(11:27):
It's about religion that hasbeen co-opted and stolen and put
on the sheep's clothing ofChristianity in order to benefit
white supremacy, systems ofpower and domination,
imperialism, capitalism, thosekinds of things.
Speaker 2 (11:41):
Well, I expect that you had not been.
The Doctrine of Discovery hadnot been part of this original
discourse.
So how has that knowledgeaffected your movement of?
Speaker 4 (11:56):
colonization so many generations ago, and I would
love for maybe Nadia Ocarina totalk a little bit about that,
because it was in the last fewyears, the last three years in
fact, that we have reallyfocused more on Latin America,
(12:18):
having so much of our teamcoming from Latin America and
first generation in the UnitedStates.
And so I think that thatdiscourse around colonization
and really honing in we hadtouched on it before when
talking about chattel slaveryactually, and the papal bulls
that came before the authorizedchattel slavery, that then made
their way into the doctrine ofdiscovery around land but it
(12:40):
really has been a centerpiece ofour work in the last few years
as we have spent more and moretime working with folks in Latin
America.
Speaker 5 (12:49):
Nadia, what do you think history and see how, as
all social, social movements do,the more that we started or the
(13:11):
more, the more that peoplestarted confronting like social
movements involved and our ideasare on our understanding of the
.
The roots of the problem aremore clear and I do believe that
at the beginning there was morenot just in so forth.
In general, progressivereligious, ish or faith um
(13:38):
oriented efforts were were veryinterested in like this approach
of there.
We can be Christians and gayand we like a lot of focus on
the clover passages of the Bible, a lot of trying to legitimize
themselves and their existence,which makes a lot of sense
(14:01):
because they will.
There were being targeted, sothere was a lot of sense because
they were being targeted.
So there was a lot of likeconfronting those arguments and
saying, no, we are worthy, weare important, we have something
to say.
And the more the movement grew,I think the analysis became more
(14:24):
like but who are you to saywho's worthy or why am I
supposed to explain myself forthis?
And then I think the element ofparasitic relationship between
religion and power became theroute that we had to approach if
(14:54):
we wanted to talk about queerpeople and faith, but also all
all the other marginalizedcommunities that have been left
behind and that have been, yeah,like, like killed for their
otherness because they do notfeel the the sacred idea of what
(15:20):
god is, that sacred idea thatis co-opted by power.
So I think right now, our workin Soulforce is way more
invested in understanding thosesystems of power and not trying
to make ourselves morerespectable for those powers.
(15:43):
Yeah, and I think, as Alba wassaying, talking about that, in
Latin America, talking aboutfaith in Latin America needs to
be accompanied by a very biganalysis of imperialism and
colonization.
So when we started doing a lotof work with queer and feminist
(16:06):
theologians in Latin America andthe Caribbean, it was very
clear that spiritual violence asa form is a colonial force,
it's an imperialistic force.
It's an imperialistic force andonce we approach that theme, I
(16:31):
think there is a lot of work tobe done and that's why we love
your work so much, because thethings that you are highlighting
with your project are superconnected to what we want to say
about the weaponization ofreligion and how it has always
been in the center of how peopleare marginalized in the global
(16:56):
South.
Yeah, that's great.
Speaker 2 (17:01):
Well, I give you a lot of credit, all of you, for
working within this binarystructure of Christianity that
came and created a war betweenthese two divided forces.
Right, indigenous people didnot live that way.
They did not have thatunderstanding of living in the
(17:21):
world because it'sinteractionary with many, many
kinds of beings.
So, to stay within thestructure of the church, when it
was very much defined in thebinary of good and evil, I give
you a lot of credit.
I mean that's incredible.
But wow, it's part of theprocess and you're doing the
(17:43):
very hard work no-transcript.
Speaker 4 (18:25):
we recognize that religion was forced on us in a
particular way, at the end of aspade, at the end of a sword,
and that means that we have alot of power to reclaim the
parts of Christianity that wereforced upon us but for a lot of
our people were sources offreedom and liberation.
It was a lot of biblicalarguments that got used in
(18:47):
multiple struggles forliberation for women, for
enslaved folks, for peoplereclaiming their independence as
territories and lands acrossthe global South.
So we recognize that it's partof a legacy for many of us of
something that is liberating.
But we also recognize with thesame rigor that there is so much
that has been poisoned that weactually do have the freedom to
(19:10):
reach back to what our ancestorspracticed, to reach into the
natural world to rebuild thoserelationships, and that that's
going to look messy and notcleanly in one thing or another.
So I'm a Christian minister, Iam deeply Christian, but I also
feel like this is theconsequence of the colonizers
forcing their religion on mypeople.
It's me, this queer person whois also Christian, who is also
(19:34):
practicing earth-based healingpractices on the land here in
Appalachia, who is also movingto the global south.
So that's me, and every one ofus has our own version of that
kind of story, but what we havein common is recognizing that
Christianity has been used forgreat harm and used as a weapon,
and that is not acceptable andwe have to come together around
(19:54):
that to uncover it, to demystifyit, to decode it, so that we
can work in resistance to it andagainst it, so that we can be
on our own healing journeys,rather than attributing to
Creator all of that stuff thathas been causing us pain and
harm, exclusion, marginalizationand taking us away from our
families, our communities andour land.
Speaker 1 (20:16):
That's deep stuff.
Speaker 2 (20:17):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (20:18):
We were just in London talking to many of these
Christian groups.
I mean, we were asked to speakat St James in Piccadilly, which
is, you know, high churchAnglican, but they're also
really invested in what theycall eco-spirituality and we
(20:38):
were asked to speak about thatand indigenous perspectives and
they connected us with Adam canhelp me here with Iona community
in Northern Scotland.
There are a lot of these groupstrying to reconnect with a
Celtic sort of indigenousspirituality but are also active
(21:01):
Christian organizations orcontemplative communities that
are reconnecting with the land.
So I think, you know, we're atan interesting moment right now.
We're at a crisis moment.
Of course it's 100 degreesoutside and for most of us,
(21:23):
which is very, that's justtotally weird for us here in
northern new york state, um.
But so I think people aretrying to trying to.
I I would say it this way, andthis is echoing what nadia was
saying earlier it's like we'reat a moment where activism is
(21:44):
meeting.
You know the academy, you know.
So we're trying to have a kindof engaged scholarship that is
not just, you know, enamoredwith archives for the sake of
archives, but trying toilluminate how these systems of
(22:06):
domination were formed andcreated in the first place so
that that can be.
We can then, you know, reflecton how that has impacted our
world today and continues to,you know, you know so.
(22:30):
So I mean, um, I see you as, uh, I feel soul forces is somehow
already uh, maybe way beforethese other movements, who knows
but there there are these umback going back to the 70s with
finhorn and other other groupsin scotland, in the uk, that are
trying to connect or reconnectwith this sense of being part of
the world or part of the land.
Speaker 2 (22:49):
And make sense of these systems of domination?
How do you work through it?
How do you see your way throughthis?
Speaker 1 (22:57):
Yeah, Is there a way to?
Speaker 2 (23:00):
see through it.
Yeah, these are seriousquestions.
Yeah, we are To see through it.
Speaker 1 (23:02):
Yeah, these are serious questions, so I'll
invite Karina to say somethingYou're aching to get in here.
Speaker 6 (23:22):
Yeah, phil, her audio is having an issue.
Let me unmute it.
Karina, I think you should beable to talk now.
No, that's just a hand raise,yeah, okay.
(23:44):
No, that's just a hand raise,yeah, okay.
So, karina, I see it's sayingthat your headphones are plugged
in.
Maybe try plugging andunplugging your headphones or
something.
Speaker 1 (24:02):
Play with the volume.
Speaker 6 (24:04):
Yeah, because it's showing an input there.
Say something no, no, okay, allright, karina, in the top right
(24:26):
corner you'll see where it sayscall settings.
Click on that and try changingaudio input and see if that
works.
Speaker 2 (24:42):
Did it work.
Speaker 3 (24:43):
Yes, yes, okay, thank you very much for the help.
What I wanted to say is that,thinking our relationship
north-south, being there inDecember listening more about
(25:03):
the Doctrine of Discovery, it'samazing how the same thing
happened to our people in allplaces and how this weaponized
Christianity is at the bottom ofthe.
This weaponized Christianity isat the bottom of the conquering
, colonizing system strategy.
(25:25):
And something I enjoy about thework we do in Soulforce is that
we can be in a conference withyou in all these very complex
(25:47):
analysis of the subject.
But then we are with people inour events who, many of them,
are people who struggle withunderstanding what religion did
to them and also struggling with, um, yeah, just questioning if
they are, if they can practice aspirituality that will not, uh,
(26:08):
damage them again, that willnot be violent with them.
And from there, also achallenge for us as social
scientists is how do we keepthis conversation that is so
complex in a level that isunderstandable, that it's, um,
(26:30):
full of empathy, uh, for theterms that people bring to the
conversation, because they willuse colonized language of
religion.
They will talk to you in thecategories they know, which are
talking about sin, talking aboutguilt, talking about the need
(26:50):
of confessing their fears andfor some people this might look
like oh come on, you're sobehind in understanding, I mean,
or how you are so into thesereligious things.
If you're a rational person,but being grown in latin america
inside of these churches, youcan understand how hard it's to
(27:15):
move from these places, not onlyrationally but emotionally,
because the scars are new, thefear is new and this fear, even
though I read something from 200or 300 years ago on the
strategies they use with otherpeople, I can feel it in me in
(27:36):
2025, I mean 24, 24 how the samestrategies just change its
forms.
But it's a very successfulstrategy in terms of dominating
and in terms of continue in acolonization of ideology.
So what we try to do, it's awork that is very complex, which
(28:00):
is working ideology at thelevel of people, at the level of
this conversation that may be,with, one day, with very
conservative people of churcheswho are interested in maybe
growing in their criticalthinking about religion, but
other day it's a conversationwith lawyers and psychologists
(28:24):
who are trying to help, uh,survivors of violence, but they
don't know how to listen to thembecause they don't speak the
religious language they don'tknow how to talk about this fear
and and sometimes this issomething where we professional
in social sciences need to comeand, and I think because of our
(28:49):
professions and disciplines andand all this time we invest in
trying to understand this, it'sour part to walk to those places
.
And when I say walk, I'm talkingabout how do we design
strategies, and that's somethingI love about Soulforce that we
are all the time thinking howwill this that is so complex and
(29:10):
intense can enter aconversation, that is language
that can be understood by a lotof people in different contexts,
and I find that as a hugechallenge for me as a person in
social sciences.
Sometimes it's easier to write apaper than try to think of
(29:32):
strategies to connect withpeople not only in a rational
way, but to develop this empathyfor what colonization and
violence has done in us and thatthis is happening here in the
South or in the North, becauseyou also have a lot of damage
there, a lot of colonizationthere, and then, at the same
(29:56):
time, a lot of the colony comesfrom you to the south, and so we
are in this huge matrix ofviolence.
But I think this healing we tryto do might help understand
(30:24):
each other and try to developthe strategies that can
dismantle this huge lie that iscovered by these holy sacred
jurisdiction that can it's sohard to judge?
Uh, because there are not evensystems that are ready to enter
this into a with the name thatit has.
That it's violence, not.
Speaker 2 (30:32):
It cannot be named like that no, we have a whole
history of bad relationships.
Some people take a whole lifeto recover from a bad
relationship with one person,and we're talking about an
institution that made us allobedient.
There's no real relationshipthere.
(30:55):
And then they laden us withguilt because of the diseases
that were planted in all ourterritories North and South
America and that we were dyingbecause of our faulty creator,
you know.
And so we're out of fear.
Fear was established in a veryprofound way at the very
(31:15):
beginning, using religion anddisease to pull us into the
belief that their god wassuperior.
And that's, it's a horriblerelationship.
Talk about generational trauma.
The whole mindset is is rootedin fear and guilt.
Yeah, it's, it's almost animpossible task.
(31:38):
Sometimes you cannot recoverfrom that and you need to
divorce from that situation.
But you, you know, I guess, canwork through it.
But you know it's not a rockyroad, whichever way you look at
it.
Speaker 1 (31:55):
Before Nadia jumps in , I wanted to say too that one
of the liberating factors ofdoing Doctrine of Discovery work
we've been doing it about 20years now and having these
conferences and what I find isthat all of our students, all of
the indigenous peoples weencounter and we were just at a
(32:17):
national or internationalconference of Indigenous peoples
in Norway and they're alldealing with trauma at various
levels.
I mean it's personal, I mean,and the thing about trauma is
you can it's very easilypersonalized in a way that you
know it's somehow a personaldeficiency or something wrong
(32:41):
with me or something like that.
And and when we talk about thedoctrine of discovery, there's
something liberating about thefact that it's not any.
It's not your fault, right thatyou have, you have these
struggles in your life, rightthat these are not things.
This is not a worldview thatyou created or your, you know is
(33:06):
somehow your create your own,you know personal hell, but
rather it's something that hasbeen indoctrinated into all of
us in various ways.
I mean, what's striking to me isthat in our department religion
, in our religion departmentmany of our grad students are
(33:28):
trying to recover from theirreligious upbringing.
You know, I mean, and somehow,you know, thinking about
religion and putting it in akind of historical context of
this, you know, violent way ofthinking, helps them, you know,
(33:49):
grapple with their own trauma.
We find that people can cometogether around the doctrine of
discovery.
It's appropriate for settler,colonial people to be talking
about as well as indigenouspeople.
So we have, you know, there's akind of a meeting of the minds
(34:10):
around these issues of thedoctrine of discovery and it's
just becoming more and moreprevalent as we, you know,
continue these podcasts.
But, nadia, you wanted to jumpin yeah, thank you.
Speaker 5 (34:25):
I well, first, thank you for what you're saying and I
like this image that you were,that we were saying sandy about
their relationship right, wehave a relationship with this.
Well, we think we saying Sandyabout the relationship right, we
have a relationship with this.
Well, we think we have arelationship with this
institution, but it's a veryconditional, it's a very violent
(34:50):
relationship.
There's a very big distancebetween who we are and how that
those institutions can, canembrace it, right, and there is
not like there is a very violentrelationship with the
institutions but at the sametime, yes, and at the same time,
(35:13):
we have deep, deeprelationships with the people
that control, like, are a partof those institutions.
And when we talk to survivorsof spiritual violence, the
people that that that hurt themare are not an institution, are
their families, are pastors thatthat were like, like family to
(35:38):
them.
It's this very complexunderstanding of how we always
talk about spiritual violenceand how this is so systemic and
structural and it's a systemthat is everywhere and it's
centuries old and it'severywhere and it's centuries
(36:00):
old and it's also intimate.
It's the most intimate thingslike.
It is both.
It is the structure, the systemthat's bigger than our
countries and it's bigger thanthe institutions and it's also
in our own bodies and itinhabits the most intimate
(36:22):
thoughts in one's own identity.
So how do we navigate thosecomplexities?
And the other thing that I wasgoing to say, and so that we can
hop on to the topic of ourrecent programming in Quito,
ecuador, in North Carolina, andalso we were working in Bogota,
(36:47):
colombia.
We have been working in Bogota,colombia and a lot of places in
Latin America.
When we were in Quito, we didworkshops with pastors, we did
workshops with sex workers andwe did workshops with midwives
from Cotacachi, from a union of41 communities in Ecuador,
(37:15):
indigenous communities inEcuador, indigenous communities
and specifically the sex workersand the midwives indigenous
midwives.
They were Catholic.
They were very, very devoutCatholics and for us that are in
Latin America, that's notsurprised any time.
If you've ever talked to anindigenous person in Latin
(37:35):
America, catholic faith is it'sso, so, so important for their
community life, for their ownsense of selves, and it was like
those people were the ones thatwere like don't mess with God.
But also what you're sayingmakes a lot of sense, because I
(37:56):
have this story of this, thischurch that did this to me and I
would like to hear Alba talkmore about those experiences.
But in any of the workshopsthat we do, the same thing
happens.
We've been doing a lot of workwith Latinx people in the US
South.
(38:17):
Specifically, we recently didwork with a centro hispano in
North Carolina, which is anorganization that has a lot of
history of working with LatinAmerican people in the United
States that recently migrated tothe US, and in those places
(38:41):
people have deep-rooted faithLGBTQ people that, having told
God doesn't love them, they willtell you how hard they love God
and how they don't like usbeing all weird about the Bible
because it feels wrong.
And when we start talking aboutspiritual violence in this
(39:03):
perspective, when we give it alanguage, when we understand
that we cannot.
There is no Christianity inthis continent that is not
infused by blood and power.
Those are facts that peopleunderstand as facts and that is
a good way to start.
And once we start framing thatas a first step to talk about
(39:31):
these things, understanding thatthe complexity and
contradictions are there, peopleare super receptive and they
start bringing deep hurt andstories that they never thought
they could talk out loud, theynever thought they could
question.
Even so, yeah, all of this tosay is super complex we are.
(39:55):
We're still battling thatcontradiction every day in our
work and in our own lives.
Speaker 1 (40:03):
That's very helpful.
Speaker 2 (40:04):
Well, at Onondaga, of course no indigenous community
could practice their ceremoniesright and you talk about.
You know we're taught thatchurch and state is divided, but
indeed it's not.
You cannot talk aboutcolonialism without talking
about Christianity.
And Christianity came in firstand changed the whole dynamic,
(40:28):
did not allow indigenous peopleto meet privately.
They're communal people, youknow.
At Onondaga they have a rigorousceremonial schedule.
Every single month they gatherfor funerals, for weddings, for
celebratory anything down there,and it's not in a church.
(40:51):
But when the church wasprevalent down there they were
not permitted to meet at all.
They could only meet in thechurch.
They had to be obedient to thepastor of the church.
They were fed the most food atchurch.
So of course everyone wouldgather to the church and they
(41:12):
survived the onslaught ofcolonization and the church by
being together.
Of course their heart is inthat.
The heart is with each otherand it's really hard to say it's
not the church that brought youtogether.
You're indigenous.
It's these long ancienttraditions that existed
(41:32):
thousands and thousands of yearsbefore the church came in and
reoriented you to somethingoutside of this earth.
You know.
Speaker 1 (41:43):
I really appreciate that, nadia, because the US
Catholic bishops and I don'tknow if you're aware of this or
this might be fair to bring thisup, but just last week the US
Catholic bishops, who we didn'tthink were paying attention to
(42:03):
indigenous issues at all, cameout with an apology for their
role in, you know, nativeAmerican boarding schools, and
there's a long document.
It's about 50 pages long.
I'm working through it, butessentially it is a document
(42:23):
that addresses indigenouscatholic people.
Now, when we were in thevatican, we were trying to get
them um, and and the harms thatthe church had caused to
indigenous, native american I'mtalking about you, you know,
within the United States,indigenous or Native American
people who converted toCatholicism and then were
(42:47):
subjected to boarding schools.
So it's kind of a particulargroup that they're speaking to,
and when we were in the Vaticanlast year, we were advocating
for for the Vatican to speak tonon-Christian indigenous peoples
as well, right, but Iappreciate what you're saying
(43:14):
and I'm wondering theapplicability of this statement,
wondering the applicability ofthis statement that came out
last week to Latin America, youknow, because they are speaking
to their own community in someway.
Right, the bishops are trying toregather, or are they trying to
(43:35):
reform the church?
I mean, what is going on here,I guess, is my question, like,
are they trying to make amendsfor, you know the past violence
to their own people?
Are they trying to, you know,reform the church?
Is it risk management, you knowto, basically, you know,
(43:57):
because the church is bleedingout money in you know sexual
abuse cases in all kinds of ways, right?
So I mean, I'm aware this justcame out and you know it's
probably not something you'velooked at.
Yet issue of the church tryingto, the Catholic Church trying
(44:17):
to address these past wrongsseems to be fashionable in the
way over the last year or so.
I don't know if anyone wants toaddress that.
I would like oh, I'm sorry.
Speaker 3 (44:38):
I would like to give credit to that to the people.
I mean the Buddha impression onthe church, because normally
what I see with these hugeinstitutions is that you see the
fights of people for years andyears trying to make them
acknowledge what they did.
This pressure comes in a hugeway and it's good to see this
(45:05):
possibility of questioningreligion.
For example, when we work withChristianized indigenous people,
first thing they feel free todo in our gatherings is to speak
(45:27):
up about what has happened withreligious leadership in their
places, and normally we have alot of stories of abuse, sexual
abuse and a lot of hiddenstories that cannot be named.
So I think something we asSoulforce can do is to open
(45:50):
these spaces where it is okaythat you question the authority
of religion.
It is okay to say, say this isnot okay, this is, or okay, well
, you say the bible says that weare theologians.
Show me where in the bible youcan support it, because we're
not playing games here.
We care about the bible andthis is why we started the bible
in a serious way.
(46:10):
So if you come here and justtell me this, show me where in
the Bible you're saying this issupport.
And I think this possibility ofgiving people a chance to
question something that has beensacred for so many centuries
(46:32):
shifts something in people andthat can lead you to question
other things, other authorities.
But and this is the place wherewe understand spirituality is
the right of people.
People can practice whateverthey want and explore their
traditions.
The problem we have is that thecolonization established one way
(46:55):
to do it, one institution orcertain form of leadership that
is the only one authorized to bethe religious authority in the
world.
So I think we are dangerous andsomehow our strategy is
sabotaging, because we areinviting people to question that
(47:17):
and, besides that, to whisperin their ears.
And what if the most sacredspirit in the world wishes this
for you, that you question allthis violence that came in the
form of a sacred being that isbasically manipulating them for
(47:37):
critically think, for reading,for looking for other sources,
(48:03):
for practicing other traditionsthat are not Christianity, for
example, or to practice aChristianity like the one we are
promoting in our events, whichis a church called Queerly
Beloved.
How about if you are a queerperson and if you are a drag and
you are the main presentationduring the religious service we
(48:24):
have?
That totally makes the minds ofpeople blown Like how is it
possible that we have a churchwhere we have drag queens as
part of the holy presentationand the way we celebrate our
bodies and our diversity?
(48:44):
So that's something I think isvery powerful and, at the same
time, something that some peopleor some huge institutions might
fear about us.
Oh wow.
Speaker 1 (48:57):
Yeah, shape the foundations, then Absolutely.
Speaker 4 (49:01):
And I think there's something really important about
just naming Like I want to justre-amplify what both Karina and
Nadia said what our mainstrategy is in the world and all
the things that we do whetherit's in Eastern Africa, latin
America, the US, south, withindigenous folks, with sex
workers, with groups of pastorsis we give a name to the
(49:25):
violence that happens not onlyto our bodies, because many of
us know the history ofcolonization.
Many of us know that that was aviolent moment but we leave it
in the past as that part of thepast thing that happened.
But when we talk aboutspiritual violence and what
happens in the wounds that wemay not be able to see 500 years
(49:45):
later, or the wounds that wemay not like maybe our families
didn't actually physically hitus but they calling us
abomination or telling us thatwe were outside the will of God,
or for folks to practice otherforms of spirituality, which
crap we were doing, rich crap ina negative way because
something people use that in apositive way now as a
reclamation.
(50:06):
But to like those things arealso painful.
You know the idea that wordsnever hurt me is a lie.
We know that words are veryimportant, especially when they
have the full force of the stateand the military behind them to
enforce those kinds of laws,those kinds of rules.
So it's not just that thechurch didn't allow people to
(50:26):
gather, or that the churchdidn't allow folks to speak
their indigenous language or dotheir practices.
It was, as they had, the fullpower of the military behind
those rules and threats.
Right, so it's not just thatthe preacher said, it's that we
know that behind that is anentire system of power and
violence.
(50:47):
And so when we talk about theharm, that is actually violence
that happens to our spirits,where we can't see what Nadia is
talking about, our mostintimate thoughts, where we
think is this punishment fromGod because of the blank thing
that is, a violence that isequal and often even more
pervasive and long-lasting thana physical bruise or cut or even
(51:10):
gunshot wound?
Because we start tellingourselves the same narrative, we
repeat the colonizer's messages.
So that's how I still seecolonization showing up now,
generations later, even if wefix everything, which is not
really possible we still havethe full weight of generations
who have been told these thingsabout our peoples and about our
(51:31):
practices and about our ways andabout our knowings and about
our bodies that we have to carryand work on burying and
composting and recreating whatthis version post-colonization
looks like, because we can't goback to before those times, and
I think that's part of ourstrategy is just naming.
This is what spiritual violenceis given immutable rights to
(51:54):
self-determination, to dignity,to peace, to love, to protection
, to just life period.
(52:21):
Whenever that is attacked in thename of God or in the name of
Creator or in the name of whatthe Bible says.
That is spiritual violence andit happens at every level of
society, from the biggestinstitutions, from the biggest
governments, to what your familymembers said about your
spiritual practices, your gender, your sexuality, your marriage
(52:45):
choices, your children, whateverthose things are a violence
that enters our bodies.
And because it has the fullweight of the hegemonic religion
and the full weight of entirenations and transnational powers
, then that is a violence thatreaches us, to our core, that we
(53:08):
have to and we have to hear.
Speaker 6 (53:11):
Excuse me, all hell breakers and we have to hear it.
Excuse me All hell breakers,give it a second we got
everything.
Hey, phil, you're coughing,muted the mic and Nadia wants to
(53:38):
jump in.
Speaker 5 (53:42):
You're on mute, Phil and Sandy.
I don't know if this is, Ithink.
Nadia can just jump in.
Speaker 4 (53:47):
Yeah, go for it.
Speaker 5 (53:48):
Nadia, I just wanted to say that I think what you
brought up, phil, about theapologies and how the
institutions are reacting to ourorganizing and people's
questioning, is super importantand we always have to be aware
(54:14):
of how they're presenting it,how the language they're using
and, as you said, who are theytrying to convince, who are they
targeting, who are they talkingto.
(54:47):
I do believe that one of themost important characteristics
of white Christian adapt andmutate and change and transform,
and because of that,marginalized communities
(55:08):
everywhere have learned to beexperts in suspicion and experts
in like this act of questioning, like you're saying the right
things but you're saying it tothese people in this specific
time and I don't believe youright, or you're doing this
other thing while you areapologizing, so I don't believe
(55:31):
you.
So I think that is, on itself,a spiritual act of reclamation
and survival and resilience andit is also what has kept us
alive queer people, people ofcolor, indigenous communities.
It is also a problem for us associal scientists or people that
(55:58):
do research on religion to seehow much that shifts.
For example, in Latin America, alot of the liberatory, like a
lot of organizations that aredoing what many would consider
decolonizing work have roots inChristianity, catholic
(56:19):
institutions that have beenshifting and there are also
dynamics on Catholic and thenevangelical things that come
from the United States and thenevangelical things that come
from the United States, I'mtalking about Latin America in
particular and how that shiftsthe power dynamics and which
(56:41):
powers are talking to the peopleand how people interact with
those approaches, faithapproaches, and it's
ever-changing with thoseapproaches, faith approaches and
, if ever changing, it issomething that those of us who
study religion need to grapplewith.
But, as Alba was saying, wewill keep naming the things, we
(57:08):
will keep creating allianceswith researchers and survivors
and organizations and activistsand confront it.
We will keep being suspicious.
We will keep creating our ownfaith, spiritual practices that
feel safe and that feelliberatory.
(57:30):
Yeah, I think.
Speaker 1 (57:37):
Maybe you could spend a few minutes on what you're
doing now, what you've donerecently, and then what you're
planning to do in the future,that is, soul force or
individually or whatever, justso our listeners know where soul
force is and where you'reheaded.
Speaker 4 (57:56):
Maybe I'll start just by talking a little bit about
our spiritual resource library,if that's okay.
We have a free downloadable onour website, soulforceorg.
We have an entire theologicalresource library that really
tackle particularly gender andsexuality issues from within a
(58:19):
Christian context, and SouthernAfricans as well, and our
partners there have asked totranslate and have translated
with their local translatorsthese resources that tackle some
(58:39):
of the most ongoing questionslike what is the truth about
Sodom and Gomorrah in theirgender diversity in the Bible,
the truth, or what you need toknow about the Bible in our.
In the Spanish language, thetitle sounds like what they
still haven't told you about theBible, which just basically
gives some more context forunderstanding that some of the
(58:59):
things that have been lifted upas untouchable or sacred also
have an entire history of wherepowerful men were sitting in
rooms making decisions aboutwhich books get put where, what
translators' decisions arearound, how they gender things
like the Holy Spirit or how theyinterpret different words from
across many languages acrossmany generations.
(59:21):
So I would highly recommend forfolks who are interested in that
kind of work of understanding,especially if you're a Christian
, to understand where our faithcomes from so that you recognize
what pieces of that are oursand what pieces of that have
been imposed in some of the mostintense, deep and most
spiritually maturing work thatwe can do as people of faith and
(59:44):
for those folks who arefighting white Christian
supremacy.
Because of the struggles forhuman rights and for human
dignity across many differentsectors, we find that the
resource library is useful tounderstand what you're having
conversations about with yourChristian colleagues or your.
Christian opponents as often asoften as the case, unfortunately
(01:00:04):
and Karina and I and anothertheologian from Colombia wrote a
very important book for us, a150 page book, which is also
available for free download onthe internet, which touches a
little bit on the Doctrine ofDiscovery actually it's
currently only in Spanish, butit introduces five concepts, and
those five concepts areChristian supremacy, spiritual
(01:00:29):
violence, religious abuse,spiritual terrorism and
spiritual trauma.
And for each one of those we gothrough a little bit about what
the definition is, some historyaround it, a real-life, true
story of somebody who hasexperienced that as an example
to see how the concepts work.
And then we have a sectionwhere we talk about how that
(01:00:51):
moves in our body.
We talk about how that moves inour body and our third person,
dr Puli she worked on bodyexercises of how we move that
through our bodies as we'reprocessing memories and these
concepts and these stories asthey come up.
And so that is part of that bookwith sections about what are
(01:01:13):
the paths to healing.
How do we start that?
Karina has sections in eachchapter about what are some of
the first steps to move fromthat kind of colonized religion
and harmful experiences and howit's in the process of healing,
which is lifelong processes, asyou said, Sandy.
Processes, as you said Sandy.
(01:01:35):
And now, right now, we'reworking on that same book in
English and adapting it for a USaudience because, of course,
the colonizers were a little bitdifferent, the religion and its
expression was a little bitdifferent, and we're kind of
moving that through.
We'll still be from a LatinAmerican perspective, but we
really want our Englishaudiences, and particularly all
of us who come from LatinAmerica and have migrated north,
to be able to find more peaceand find ourselves in this kind
(01:01:58):
of clash of different kinds ofcultures, understand a little
bit more about where we comefrom and what colonization and
religion looks like from thatperspective.
So, that should be forthcoming,also sponsored by the Henry Luce
Foundation, also sponsored bythe Henry Luce Foundation.
So we were excited about that.
And then we have a very biggathering happening in October
(01:02:18):
in Mexico City where we'rebringing together Latin American
, feminist and queer theologians, both from Latin America and
from the diaspora here in theUnited States, to have
conversations about weaponizedreligion, spiritual violence.
Conversations about weaponizedreligion, spiritual violence,
particularly as it applies toLGBT folks and women and other
marginalized communities, andwe're excited about what's going
(01:02:42):
to happen coming out of that.
Speaker 1 (01:02:45):
So, sidebar, if you have a kind of shortish version
of the book that's coming out,we'd like to, or we'll.
We'll announce it on our list,certainly, and then also, if you
have a, an announcement for theconference in Mexico City will
certainly spread that around.
(01:03:06):
Well, I mean, I've got you knowa few students of mine would be
very interested in that it's areally special experience and we
are encouraging students tocome join.
Speaker 4 (01:03:17):
Some of the biggest names in feminist theological
work in Latin America will bejoining us.
Maricel Mena, who doesAfro-Colombian biblical study in
Colombia, will be there with us.
Several people from Mexico andmore that we haven't confirmed
yet, so it's a very uniqueopportunity for students in
(01:03:40):
particular, where we're mostlykeeping it for folks who are
part of that community alreadyand students.
So we have done almost 70episodes of Teología sin
Vergüenza, this podcast inSpanish on queer and feminist
theology, and so those are thefolks that will be the primary
people coming to the event.
But we're also opening space forstudents because we think it's
(01:04:03):
really, really important forthem to kind of see.
because of the language andcolonizer language, a lot of us
who are Latinx in the US wenever get to see what is
happening in the theologicalsphere both indigenous theology,
afro descendiente theology andqueer and feminist theology in
Latin America, because thosethings are published in Spanish
(01:04:28):
and we often don't have accessto that language anymore.
Even if it's a colonizedlanguage, we still don't have
access to that because we'veassimilated into US culture,
where English was the languageour families took up for
survival purposes.
So we would be very excited tohost students who are willing to
come.
It will be in Spanish, so folkswill need to have some access
(01:04:49):
to Spanish, but it feels like aonce-in-a-lifetime opportunity
for me and I've been doing thisfor 10 years and I am just
beside myself with pleasurebecause, as far as we know, this
hasn't happened before.
Wow.
Speaker 2 (01:05:02):
I guess I'd like to mention you were talking about
energies, these negativeenergies through your body and
some of this work you've beendoing, and it just brought to
mind that we're talking aboutspirit and the very food you
know, we understand we'recomprised of the earth and
(01:05:25):
spirituality is a materialreality, and the food that you
ingest does a lot of the work ofmoving, you know, this negative
energy through your body andit's this re-engagement that is
not so much going back topre-existence but it's
re-engaging with the naturalworld as well and connecting to
(01:05:47):
the regeneration that createsour life and all life on the
planet.
So just something to you know,think about you know, that's why
we have ceremonies and dancesfor certain, like vegetables or
animals or plants, right?
(01:06:07):
Because, it's a very real thing.
I mean, it's all medicine, allthe foods that we ingest in the
air.
That's all I wanted to add.
Speaker 5 (01:06:22):
Just a quick fun fact , angel Mendez, which is a
Mexican queer theologian.
He does a lot of work aroundqueer theology, body pleasure,
and his other big area of studyis food.
Is food and desire?
Of course it's, and and he's adancer, he's a theologian and a
(01:06:44):
dancer.
So I was just highlighting howit is so connected.
And queer theology, queer andfeminist theologiesologies have
a big history of understanding,approaching the body in its
material and spiritual realitiesand understanding pleasure.
(01:07:08):
There's a lot to be said abouthow this white christian
supremacy, weaponization ofreligion have targeted pleasure
and bodies and how we look, howwe act, how we move um and, yeah
, just a quick thing, about howthe food we eat, the land we
(01:07:30):
walk on um, all of those thingsare connected through our bodies
and have been domesticated bypower.
Yeah, so it is connected.
Fruits and Teologías enVergüenza are Latin American
(01:07:51):
theology, queer and feministtheology program our logo, our
fruits, let me have, oh, fruitsfrom Latin America, specifically
from different parts.
So it is, it is connected, justa little.
Speaker 2 (01:08:10):
I think the colonizer understood a lot of that too,
because they ruined our fields,our indigenous crops, and
replaced the basic corn withtheir white flour, Because they
knew it would change ourceremonies and our way of
connecting with the earth.
Speaker 4 (01:08:29):
That was impacted all over South America and North
America and they already knewhow this effectively made people
sick and disrupted culture atits core, which is part of why
some of the work that we do thatgives people feels like it
gives people permission which ofcourse we don't need permission
(01:09:00):
to reach back into our own ways, which of course we don't need
permission to reach back.
That our people ate, that is asuperfood and it is a choice
(01:09:27):
between whether or not we wantto choose to eat amaranth as
opposed to other grains, and somaking some of those choices
that for some of us feelsunfamiliar is part of the ways
that we sabotage Christiansupremacy, because sometimes
people feel like you have to dothis whole re-envisioning of
yourself and your world.
But there are these small actsof disobedience and these small
acts of rebeldia or rebellionthat we do in our daily lives,
(01:09:49):
that help reorient ourselves towhat it feels like to be in our
full bodies and to try to healand calm some of those ancient
narratives that tell us that weare in danger if we don't obey
wow, yeah, thank you for that.
Speaker 1 (01:10:07):
Yeah, thank you.
Um, I think that's a good placeto wrap it up.
We could go on for a very longtime, but we're trying the
patience of our listeners.
So thank you, Karina, Nadia andAlba for Oops.
Thank you.
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