April 1, 2025 • 48 mins
Yuria Celidwen, a Nahua and Maya scholar and UC Berkeley postdoctoral researcher, shares how Indigenous wisdom offers pathways for collective healing beyond colonial mindfulness practices that prioritize individual benefit over community wellbeing.
• Identifying as a "truth bearer" from Maya tradition, Celidwen bridges Indigenous epistemologies with academic research
• The mindfulness movement has colonial roots, extracting Eastern practices while severing them from community responsibility
• Indigenous sciences engage in "intersubjective dialogue" with subjects rather than treating them as inert objects
• The doctrine of discovery established belief systems of domination that continue to impact Indigenous peoples
• Historical distortions by missionaries and colonists undermined Haudenosaunee matrilineal systems and traditional practices
• Indigenous knowledge uses metaphor, poetry, and ceremony to express complex scientific understanding
• Young people increasingly recognize the value of Indigenous perspectives in addressing climate emergency
• Transformation requires composting old narratives of purity and domination to create new ways of being
• We're never alone in this work - we carry ancestral wisdom and plant seeds for future generations
Find Yuria Celidwen book "Flourishing Kin: Indigenous Wisdom for Collective Well-Being" to discover Indigenous-inspired practices for reconnecting with the more-than-human world.
View the transcript and show notes at podcast.doctrineofdiscovery.org. Learn more about the Doctrine of Discovery on our site DoctrineofDiscovery.org.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:07):
Hello and welcome to the Mapping the Doctrine of
Discovery podcast.
The producers of this podcastwould like to acknowledge with
respect the Onondaga Nationfirekeepers of the Haudenosaunee
, the indigenous peoples onwhose ancestral lands Syracuse
University now stands, and nowintroducing your hosts, phil
(00:27):
Arnold and Sandy Bigtree.
Speaker 2 (00:30):
Welcome back everyone to Mapping the Doctrine of
Discovery.
My name is Phil Arnold.
I'm a professor of religion andcore faculty in Native American
Indigenous Studies at SyracuseUniversity and the founding
director of the Scano Great LawPeace Center.
Speaker 3 (00:48):
And I'm Sandy Bigtree , a citizen of the Mohawk Nation
at Akwesasne Bear Clan.
We welcome you back today.
I think it's during thisdisheartening times we're living
in right now, and, althoughwe're talking about the doctrine
of discovery, I think today'sspeaker will offer a lot of hope
(01:11):
in some direction on how we canplot our way through these
times.
Speaker 2 (01:17):
We're sponsored by the Henry Luce Foundation.
Speaker 4 (01:44):
Foundation generously , and today we have with us
Yuria, who I'm going to inviteto introduce herself to the
audience.
You just heard my indigenousMaya language Batsilkop means
the true word.
(02:04):
Batikop means the true word, sothose that speak it, we are the
truth bearers.
And when I say truth, we aremeaning more original words like
the closer to the earth word,and I speak.
(02:25):
I was born and raised in thehighlands of Chiapas in Mexico,
in a Batilcop Maya village, andthat's where I give my honors to
my ancestors of earth, myancestors of land and my
(02:46):
ancestors of blood that havegrown my soul and the
strengthility with which thelife in the magical realism of
(03:09):
Indigenous dreamlands bring intomy work.
As I said, I'm a truth bearer.
I'm also a trickster, a dreamerand maybe a culture shifter,
but I'm also a scholar.
I'm a postdoctorate researcherat the University of California,
(03:29):
berkeley, where I am carrying amulti-year project on
indigenous forms ofcontemplation through
interdisciplinary approaches tothe transcendent experience that
are embodied in prosocialbehavior, that's, spiritual
exercises or practices ofreverence, of ethics, of
(03:53):
compassion and a sense of awe,love and sacredness, and I've
been working with indigenouscommunities of the Americas, and
my work, then, will take me toAsia as well, and to Africa to
continue this work.
And it is how, along with eldersand the community itself, we
(04:17):
can bring indigenous ontologistsand epistemologists in the way
we do research in academia andhow we can elevate our
indigenous sciences to createbridges in which we broaden the
sense of what it means sciencesin plural, and then we create
(04:42):
together ways of findingsolutions that benefit the
larger planetary communities ofrelatives relatives of, of
course, the human species, butmore than human relatives and
the whole of the environmentalearth community.
(05:07):
I'm really excited to speakwith you.
I'm, of course, a listener ofthe podcast from the very
beginning.
I love the work that we inhabit, so I'm excited to be here.
(05:49):
Thank you so much, sandy.
Bill Adam, thank you.
Speaker 2 (05:54):
Thank you, and I think what you're referring to
is really the transformation ofthe academy into something more
life-affirming, life-givingrather than extractive kind of
knowledge-based systems.
And in that spirit we'd like totalk about your book which of
(06:17):
course has just come out,flourishing Kin Indigenous Wis
for collective well-being.
We've looked at, we've beenreading it, treasure it, and can
you talk more about how yourwork is sort of responding to
(06:44):
the doctrine of discovery, thetrauma of new world thinking,
you know, in light of your owntradition and in light of your
work with indigenous peoples allover the world?
Speaker 4 (07:00):
Yeah, thank you so much, and I think I'll also tell
a little bit of the story ofhow the book came to be, because
I was approached by thepublisher for a book on
indigenous practices ofcontemplation and knowing what
(07:32):
the mindfulness movement hasbrought to the West, which I
find it to be well profoundlycolonial Because it goes to
other systems of believing inthe mindfulness movement.
It's mainly influenced by EastAsian traditions, mainly
Buddhist tradition, mainlyTibetan Buddhist practices, but
there are also other practicesfrom Theravada traditions as
(07:54):
well, Buddhist Theravadatraditions that then were
brought to the West byprivileged white mostly men in
the 70s, 80s, and then withreally good intentions, that
must be said as well, intentionson trying to bring the wisdom
(08:17):
of these traditions tounderstand the way we create our
sense of self, the way wecreate our sense of self, the
way we create culturalnarratives and how we can
transform those.
But at the moment of thentranslating these practices into
(08:37):
a Western system, then thepractices started acquiring the
individualist personality of theWest.
There was also some that I seeas cognitive imperialism as well
(08:57):
, of seeing other practices intraditions and then thinking
that we know better than thetradition itself.
What are the elements that areimportant for that practice and
then bring them the way that wetranslate it into our community
in the West.
And so that started bysecularizing these practices and
(09:24):
then depriving them from themost important aspect, that was,
the community compassion, youknow, like the working for the
well-being of a community,larger community.
So that the mindfulnessmovement then became a way of
improving the individual, a wayof improving the individual
(09:47):
right, Improving the self.
Better concentration, bettersleep, all these different
benefits for cardiovascularsystems, All of those are really
good.
But at the moment ofsecularizing these practices,
(10:09):
one the practices lost thecapacity to fall in awe and
reverence with the communitythat we live in.
And then the practices lost theresponsibility to return to
that community right or to workfor the benefit of that
community.
(10:29):
So for many years, um, I havebeen speaking and writing
against this view, this verywhite, privileged view, uh, of
of contemplation, and starteddoing work as I started also
getting into the academic workof contemplative studies, which
(10:53):
is now a 30-decade field ofstudies.
Like academic studies, therewas absolutely no representation
of indigenous voices or wisdomin that field, and then it was
mostly, as I was mentioning, thecolonial way of approaching
(11:16):
contemplation.
So my work has been to bringindigenous life ways and
indigenous, very sophisticatedsystems of contemplative
sciences and the ways that thesesystems return that sense of
reverence to the largerplanetary community.
(11:38):
And so when I was approachedfor the book, I said that a book
of only practices would justperpetrate this.
Narrow peoples of the worldhave lived, continue to live,
that we carry under our skin,and then these practices will
(12:13):
just become commodified, rightas they have become with the
mindfulness movement.
I said that also, being this myvery first book, I needed to
give the part of my own storyyou know, part of my life and
really make people look beyondthe facade of complacency that I
(12:42):
feel that these mindfulpractices bring, that it's all
for the comfort, cushioning andperhaps even perpetuating ideas
of who has access to thisbenefit or discomfort, or
(13:02):
because the world is a mess.
Then I go to my retreat inwhich I'm safe and it's enough
for me to send love from acushion in my perfect paradise
mountain, instead of returningand setting with the people,
instead of returning and settingwith the people, working with
(13:24):
the people to change thoseconditions that continue to
bring the struggles to most ofthe world.
And so I pushed to bring thesemore important components into
the book.
Fortunately, the publisheragreed and then I started
(13:46):
bringing these stories, many ofthe stories that these
population in the contemplativeworld or in the mindfulness
world are resistant to see inthe eye.
Right, Because this complacentplace is a blind place.
(14:14):
Right, it's not ready to dealwith fragility or it's not ready
to deal with their ownvulnerability, is not ready to
reckon with the horrors thathave been imposed upon the whole
world right of genocide andsuch.
So I pushed for that to be inthe book, to be in the book.
(14:47):
I must say also that I was askedto be not as vociferous as I
tend to be.
You know, when I speak, live,that I tend to be really
vociferous about what I live,what I have lived, what I see.
My peoples continue living,what I see.
I have worked for almost 20years in humanitarian work
(15:10):
around the world with indigenouspeoples around the world, and I
see these situations that havebrought many of these
communities to have 20 years ofless life expectancy than others
, the non-Indigenouscounterparts.
(15:31):
In the US alone, Indigenouscommunities have seven years
less of life expectancy.
Seven years less of lifeexpectancy.
So when I speak aboutchallenges, I'm not only
speaking metaphorically.
There are metrics that show whythe lack of access to education
(15:52):
, to medicine, to life safe, ofcrime, etc.
Are more impaired or rampant inindigenous communities, right
so?
Speaker 3 (16:09):
well where we live.
You know this is where thecolonists came into this
territory and through the ErieCanal.
It was an artificial waterway,right, and living conditions
were so oppressive for everybodythe immigrants coming into this
territory, this artificialstream, and it's the kind of, um
(16:44):
, you know, the manufacturing of, of materials and excavation of
resources and and they werethrown together with so many
other cultural groups, the irishand the italians and the
spanish, and you know um,everybody's thrown together.
But out of this situation aroseall these new uh religions.
It was called the Burned OverDistrict because they were all
(17:04):
searching for something Right.
So first of all, these newreligions were already
disjointed from theircommunities and their homeland.
So you know, it presented thegroundwork for a new kind of
identity of being human, but itwas disconnected, you know, from
(17:26):
everything.
And to make it even morepersonal into the current time
frame here, phil and I met inBoulder, colorado, and that's
kind of the new age capital ofthis country, along with
Berkeley.
I think we're well aware ofmindfulness, that whole movement
and the striving to thisutopian vision of the personal
(17:53):
connection to God, and we oftenheard that expressed God is
speaking through me and we oftenheard that expressed God is
speaking through me.
You know, for people that hadthis inspired thought, it was
always attributed that it onlycame through them and it was
coming directly from God.
So we're very much aware ofwhat you're having a problem
(18:14):
with and trying to, you know,dispel.
You know that this kind ofmovement of mindfulness has some
problems, you know.
Speaker 2 (18:26):
And then, of course, with the burned over district
along the Erie Canal, which isbeing celebrated this year, by
the way, for this 200-yearanniversary comes the
dispossession of theHaudenosaunee.
You know, we're in theheartland of the Haudenosaunee
territory.
So simultaneous to theattainment of these new
(18:49):
relationships to the divine,including Mormons and others, is
the dispossession of indigenouspeoples right, so religion
becomes a problem simultaneously, that it's also a kind of
(19:11):
window in some ways as well, andI find that you're working at
that kind of juncture in yourbook working at that kind of
juncture in your book and thispossession of indigenous peoples
, and I should emphasize that Ifeel in the end it all comes to
(19:33):
land, right, it all comes towealth.
Speaker 4 (19:36):
You know the wealth of the lands, but the
dispossession goes into tangibleand intangible heritage of
indigenous peoples.
Right, I mean part of also mywork, and in the book there's a
section that's rightrelationships with indigenous
peoples.
When approaching our spiritualpractices with indigenous
(20:00):
peoples?
When approaching our spiritualpractices, Because many of the
spiritual practices in manyindigenous traditions have been
extracted and brought into theWest, not only the intangible
heritage, which are rituals,ceremonies, songs, dances, but
(20:23):
also the tangible heritage, likethe materials, even to the
point of genetic material, inorder to patent our sacred
practices, spiritual practicesfor just another kind of
business model in the West,similar to the mindfulness
(20:46):
movement.
But then now, in the aspect ofwhat indigenous spiritual
practices are but that the Westcalls psychedelics, and in the
end, is this then again takingthe wealth of the truth bearers,
(21:08):
in a way of the people that arecloser to the original wisdom
of the earth, in order to try tosort how to heal these profound
wounds that the West itself hascreated on themselves, right?
Speaker 2 (21:31):
So I read it.
Speaker 4 (21:34):
Yeah, and in the end I think it all has to do with
the doctrine of discovery.
You know, like this is, this isthe um, the, the was the the
first link in our conversation.
I understand why all thesedifferent groups trying to look
for new religions, news, newpractices, new rituals, new um,
(21:57):
even that medicalized model thatI find so absurd, looking for
ways to heal themselves.
But rather than looking intojust this superficial wound
(22:18):
that's oozing, pause from thehistorical damage that has
created.
We really need to reckon and goto the very rotting origin of
this disease, which is thatbelief system of Abrahamic
(22:44):
traditions in which, in the veryfirst verses of the Genesis,
there is this idea that that menor that translation better said
no.
The translation of those verseswas that that men was to
(23:05):
dominate all of creation, right.
But then all of creationsuddenly became an object of
service, sort of like deprivedof life.
Then, of course, when I speakabout men in this context, it
was not all men right, contextit was not and abused right.
(23:48):
So if we start from a beliefsystem that has these seeds of
hierarchy and abuse anddomination and extraction and
wealth in the end, then what dowe expect?
(24:12):
Right, centuries and millenniaafter, that belief system has
been ingrained, and not only ina closed location, but it has
been imposed upon the world overright Right.
(24:33):
Since the Middle Ages.
Speaker 3 (24:34):
Well, in this country the Jesuits brought, you know,
the tenets of the doctrine ofdiscovery into the Northeast,
and this was indigenous peopleunder the great law of peace,
the Haudenosaunee, and they bragabout having Christianized,
like the Wyandotte and Innuwithin 30 years, completely
(24:55):
Christianized them, right, andthey wrote their histories about
who we were.
And then you jump ahead to themid 1700s, another hundred years
past that, and you have, likeCotterwaller Colden, writing the
history of the five nations.
He was the last governor of theNew York colony before they
(25:20):
gained independence andseparated from Britain.
But he said all we know aboutthe Haudenosaunee came from the
French, and those documents werenot correct.
You know.
They were manipulated toproject the wrong kind of
culture.
They forced women to marrytheir husbands within the first
(25:42):
couple of years and take an oathof subservience to their
husband, and these are peoplethat followed the matrilineal
clan system, right.
And then the priests wouldn'tlet them hunt unless they
accepted Jesus Christ as theirLord and Savior.
So only then could they hunt.
But then they hunted on such amassive scale that they killed
(26:08):
the beaver, they practicallyeradicated the beaver and
jeopardized the venison, andthese were meats that were
traded, you know, with theHaudenosaunee, and so this
intrusion of Christianity reallyhad such a profound disruption.
And then the Christians, theJesuits, had forced to be
(26:32):
Christian.
The Haudenosaunee saw they werea threat and warfare started at
that point.
So the Haudenosaunee couldprotect this part of the country
.
But that's not how the historywas written.
They said the Haudenosauneecould protect this part of the
country, but that's not how thehistory was written.
They said the Haudenosauneewere always at war with the
Wyandotte.
And it's not true.
(26:53):
And then Codwalder thenreiterates that kind of a
history.
So we can't even trust primarytexts that founded this country.
Of course, being indigenous,that's pretty obvious.
But you know you can't get anyauthentic history from going
back to those texts because theywere texts.
(27:15):
They were writing down the lawof future generations and how
they would identify being human.
It goes so deep.
Speaker 2 (27:26):
And then of course they you know those primary
texts love to say that they'renow exterminated.
You know all of these practicesare gone this is part of the
rap that the Jesuits weresending back to European kings
that we've been so successfulthat you know, they no longer
(27:46):
practice their heathen ways orwhatever.
But right down the road here wehave the most traditional
Haudenosaunee government in theUnited States Right that have
managed to basically keepeverything quiet.
You know, and I'm sure yourfolks have done the same.
(28:09):
You know they've had tocamouflage and, and you know,
keep their traditions hidden.
Speaker 3 (28:19):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (28:20):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (28:21):
You're talking about this communication and
relationship with the naturalworld which defines us right and
going back to ToddWallader-Colden and his history
of the Five Nations, he waswriting about these orators and
speakers who were men of suchfew words and they had no way of
(28:45):
expressing complex ideas whenthey spoke, but they used
metaphors all the time.
He wrote this in his history.
They wrote metaphors and it wasa more effective way of of um
pulling out the passion ofpeople listening, and that's
(29:05):
because when you're connectedwith the natural world, you see
the world in metaphor.
It's not just that they spokein metaphor, it's a different
way of being human in this world, and you speak a lot about
metaphor in your book and it gotme thinking about Adelwalder
and and and some of thetraditional leaders here.
Speaker 2 (29:28):
They refer to the language almost being cinematic.
Speaker 4 (29:31):
You know, there's so much there that you just see,
you know, in the language andthat resonates, I think, with
what you're saying as well yeah,and and well, one of the
beautiful things also about thefreedom I guess that I had with
the book was, or relative, thatI was able to use my more
(29:56):
natural speech, which is muchmore poetic, right, and as you
(30:32):
know, an academic book would notwelcome that kind of talk, but
in a academics.
So it's all this pointing tothis multiplicity in which we
understand the world, right,because a misinterpretation or a
huge misunderstandinginterpretation or a huge
misunderstanding aboutindigenous peoples many times is
that, oh, we are not scientificenough or rigorous in our
(30:58):
sciences, right, and that justshows a profound ignorance of
what indigenous sciences are andhow rigorous in the observation
and analysis of phenomena.
And then the narratives that wecreate to make sense of that
world.
And, of course, if seeing itfrom the very singular, narrow
(31:21):
view of Western science, inwhich there's an object that's
inert, that one can study forutilitarian reasons, then of
course it doesn't make sense,right.
But if we see it from themultifaceted and
multidimensional aspect ofindigenous sciences, in which
there is a dialogue,intersubjective dialogue, with
(31:42):
our subject of study, in whichwe are both transformed at the
process of being in communionwith this process, then our
narratives of that are notthesis and hypothesis, but
perhaps are poems and ritualsand ceremonies and dances.
(32:05):
And then there's this profound,true living in communion with
the whole environment with whichwe are allowing ourselves to be
transformed as well.
Speaker 3 (32:20):
Right, right, so there are so many systems of
intelligence by which we'rerelated, so we have to be
vigilant and paying attentionand listening to those systems.
We're not in charge of anything, you know, and we can't help
along any of these systems,because they're helping us along
, frankly, right and they're.
Speaker 4 (32:42):
Even our body is comprised of these systems, I
mean we're just kind of hosts,you know, yeah, and you'd say
it's so well, uh, sandy, becausewe are embodying this wisdom,
this life ways, these values.
Right, we are embodying them.
It's not just ideas, no, it'snot just, uh, words, it's it's
(33:08):
all of our being, uh, that'sthat's out there and also that's
very participatory.
It's not, it's not all thisindividual who's out there doing
their thing, right, it's alwaysthis, this changing this
transformative aspect of thewhole body, right, and that's
(33:28):
why we need the sound, we needthe movement, we need all of
these different ways of creatingwisdom that are very times
overlooked.
Speaker 3 (33:40):
I know there are some nationalist movements that want
to have pure, purity in theirculture and eradicate, you know,
diversity.
But the earth is diverse andwith this influx of immigrants
coming into this country, alongwith them came the food sources
that changed the landscapes.
(34:02):
So you know the landscapes, soyou know you cannot think in
that way of purity of race or,you know, being against
diversity, because we live in adiverse world you said it's ever
changing, right, and we can'tcontrol it.
Speaker 4 (34:22):
It's that idea of purity.
Yeah, I mean, it's that idea ofpurity.
I mean, how much sufferingcould that be bringing to
someone?
It's like demanding to the soilto be just one thing.
And how many universes are in asingle grain of sand.
Right, we are immersed in thatmultiplicity and pushing for a
(34:45):
singularity.
Immersed in that multiplicityand pushing for a singularity
just deprives us of passion, ofawe, of surprise, love,
reverence for every singlemanifestation of life.
Speaker 1 (35:02):
Do you need help catching up on today's topic or
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If so, please check our websiteat
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listen to podcasts.
And now back to theconversation.
Speaker 4 (35:23):
We start talking about all these systems of of
oppression and domination andthen we open this huge uh trunk
of, of um of demons, you know,of stories that, uh, that are
all related and and and that are, I mean, all related in the
(35:45):
sense that that we start diggingand we find that the these
delusions no delusions of ofpurity of um of belief systems,
systems end up wounding the verysame people that they are
(36:10):
trying to quote.
Unquote, save right.
Speaker 3 (36:16):
Well, phil, when we moved here, phil was teaching
his Indigenous Religions coursein values and he said you know,
these students, they get turnedoff.
If they can't find value in howit pertains to them, they're
not going to care.
(36:36):
This was, you know what, 30years ago, but you know, I think
it's changing.
It's shifting in the timeswe're living in.
Now it's becoming urgent.
Speaker 4 (36:46):
Right, and I'm sure you see it with your students,
feel that I'm also very hopefulto see the youth movement.
You know, hopeful to see theyouth movement that has taken so
much commitment with theclimate catastrophe, the climate
emergency, to really be strongparticipants to create awareness
(37:12):
and to from political decisionmakers that things start really
moving towards benefiting theenvironment.
We know that now we have ahuman right to a healthy
environment that includes thehealth of our bodies of water,
(37:36):
our skies, our soils.
Pushing for that sort of rightsof nature, that personhood for
all these different relatives,that is very natural for
indigenous communities the worldover, right, that there is a
(37:57):
consensus in the personhood ofour environments, right.
And to see such resistance aswe are seeing today we were
talking about how concerning itis, but also how much it renews
(38:17):
the commitment to bring, inwhatever way, whatever gift in
whatever certain circle ofinfluence, the possibilities of
of change, that view, you know,of change, those, those ideas
that keeps us separated,isolated, um, deprived of joy,
(38:40):
really, of being in community,of valuing the diversity of
community.
And I guess part of also my bookwas to not only push or
challenge the reader intoreckoning from a place of
(39:04):
awareness and deep compassion.
But also, what are the waysforward, what are the pathways
that we can take forward?
And to know that, while thetransitions are are challenging,
perhaps exhausting, that naturein all her beauty shows us that
(39:29):
it always re-emerges right, italways re-emerges.
And, and it is part of ourcommitment to compose all those
old stories, all thosenarratives of me and purity and
(39:50):
domination, and start allowingthem to return to the earth so
that then they give life to anew way of being that has all
these values of kindness andcare and commitment and
(40:11):
reverence and awe and love forlife.
That we have a possibility tochange, that we can make a
difference and that we have toget together to do that.
That it is precisely thechallenge to isolation and that
(40:34):
the more we get together, thesooner we change this.
Speaker 3 (40:39):
And the more we get together, the sooner we change
this.
A big peg in this is to supportIndigenous people and their
values and their practices,because this is ancient
knowledge that can benefiteverybody.
And you know the populationsare still dwindling but you know
they're still practicing theirceremonies here at On Dog.
(41:03):
It's such a rigorous ceremonialcycle.
Oren has even Oren Lyons haseven said you know, our families
and our clans come to ceremonyand we don't come to feel good.
We never go there just to feelgood.
We have a responsibility to dothese dances and say these words
(41:26):
and, you know, offer these umpieces of clothing and artwork
and everything else.
It's so.
It's our responsibility to dothat.
It's not um self.
What is, what is the self?
Wellness?
Speaker 2 (41:41):
it's not about wellness.
Speaker 3 (41:43):
It's not about our individuals about connecting
this regenerative power of whowe are with this live alive
earth right yeah, community andwhen you when you're um.
Speaker 2 (41:57):
When you were talking about um, you know the
mindfulness movement and kind ofthe new age movement and the
new age appropriation of thesepractices.
They always make the mistake,always that this is somehow
self-help.
You know it's not.
It's not for the benefit of thewhat?
(42:18):
How did she put it?
How do you put it in your book?
The more than human world ohyes.
Speaker 3 (42:25):
I love that phrase.
Speaker 2 (42:25):
I love that More than human More than human, because
they are more than us.
Absolutely.
We're more dependent on themthan they are on us.
I want to attribute this toAdam, the producer, and I want
this in the podcast.
(42:46):
So Adam says is this the last,final intense gasp of the
doctrine of discovery, trying toforeclose change and
transformation?
I mean what we're experiencingnow.
Maybe we're in a moment right,a moment as you were saying that
(43:07):
there is.
We're in a moment oftransformation and something's
got to give.
And I think, going back to thestudents, the students
understand that they feel thatin their own bodies, they feel
that in their anxiety Most ofthem are overwhelmed with
(43:29):
anxiety and so you know, butthrough that, know that
something has to give, right?
Speaker 4 (43:39):
So I'm wondering are we in that moment yet, right?
So I'm wondering, are we in thatmoment yet?
I?
I I feel those moments has hasstarted and continue, and and
one thing that we should neverum forget is that these tensions
are all part of one same sacred, larger dance, cosmic dance,
(44:00):
right, that it's not that theywill ever end, thank goodness,
right.
This tension is the power ofcreativity to want to come out
and transform.
Transform from the staleness ofsomething that is already not
(44:21):
giving.
That is not, um, uh, sterile,that is sterile, right, and the
youth sense that in their bodies.
They feel it in their tummieswhen they hear indigenous
speakers and they get up and saylike this is what I want.
No, I'm tired of the whatever,um more, um death, ways of
(44:46):
seeing things as, as inert aswell.
Right, and uh, I believe that,yes, if this is a moment of
change, it will be challenging,but all the more important that
we return to this community,right, so that we continue
empowering each other,supporting each other in this
(45:08):
change.
And the good thing is that,just as Oren said, right, he is
such an elder that has inspiredmany of us and then, hopefully,
we will also keep inspiring theyouth that will come and then
they will inspire the next youththat come and like that right.
(45:29):
We come never alone.
We come with our wholecommunities behind us, in front
of us, that are rising ourvoices right.
So we are never, never alone,once we realize that we are part
of a very responsive, veryalive Mother Earth planet that,
(45:52):
as a great mother, she's alsoscolding the child that's
playing with fire.
She's also scolding the childthat's playing with fire right,
with the fire of an intellectthat is not really channeled in
the way that is ofresponsibility and of care or
reverence.
Speaker 3 (46:11):
We're carrying seeds from past generations and
planting them for future.
So we're never it's what you'resaying, we're like never really
in the present, because it'salways moving and changing, yeah
, and in the maya, in the mayatradition.
Speaker 4 (46:28):
You know of my, my upbringing and ancestors.
We are always in this spiraltime that is always necessarily
past and always necessarilyfuture, and we are all in this
moment, being informed by bothof these different dimensions,
(46:49):
and that creates how committedwe are, how aware, how conscious
is our action today.
You know so, then, we don'tallow ourselves to dwindle or in
hopelessness.
No, rather, we know that wehave to act because that's
(47:10):
independently of the outcome.
That's just what we should bedoing right, for the benefit of
all we should be doing right forthe benefit of all.
This has been an inspiringconversation with Yuria.
Speaker 2 (47:27):
Saldwin.
Speaker 4 (47:28):
Saldwin, yes, saldwin .
Speaker 2 (47:28):
And the book again is Flourishing Kin Indigenous
Wisdom for Collective Well-Being.
Thank you so much, yuria, forbeing with us today, and I knew
this was going to be aninspiring conversation, and we
thank you greatly for all you'redoing on all our behalf.
Speaker 4 (47:52):
Thank you so much, dear Sandy and Phil and Adam.
We do do together, butdefinitely you have opened paths
for many of these voices toreach more.
So may we keep.
May we keep sowing those landswith love and care and reverence
.
Thank you, be well, thank you,thank you.
Speaker 1 (48:19):
The producers of this podcast were Adam DJ Brett and
Jordan Lone Colon.
Our intro and outro is socialdancing music by Oris Edwards
and Regis Cook.
This podcast is funded incollaboration with the Henry
Luce Foundation, syracuseUniversity and Hendricks Chapel
and the Indigenous ValuesInitiative.
If you like this episode,please check out our website and
(48:40):
make sure to subscribe.
Hello and welcome to the Mapping the Doctrine of
Discovery podcast.
The producers of this podcastwould like to acknowledge with
respect the Onondaga Nationfirekeepers of the Haudenosaunee
, the indigenous peoples onwhose ancestral lands Syracuse
University now stands, and nowintroducing your hosts, phil
(00:27):
Arnold and Sandy Bigtree.
Speaker 2 (00:30):
Welcome back everyone to Mapping the Doctrine of
Discovery.
My name is Phil Arnold.
I'm a professor of religion andcore faculty in Native American
Indigenous Studies at SyracuseUniversity and the founding
director of the Scano Great LawPeace Center.
Speaker 3 (00:48):
And I'm Sandy Bigtree , a citizen of the Mohawk Nation
at Akwesasne Bear Clan.
We welcome you back today.
I think it's during thisdisheartening times we're living
in right now, and, althoughwe're talking about the doctrine
of discovery, I think today'sspeaker will offer a lot of hope
(01:11):
in some direction on how we canplot our way through these
times.
Speaker 2 (01:17):
We're sponsored by the Henry Luce Foundation.
Speaker 4 (01:44):
Foundation generously , and today we have with us
Yuria, who I'm going to inviteto introduce herself to the
audience.
You just heard my indigenousMaya language Batsilkop means
the true word.
(02:04):
Batikop means the true word, sothose that speak it, we are the
truth bearers.
And when I say truth, we aremeaning more original words like
the closer to the earth word,and I speak.
(02:25):
I was born and raised in thehighlands of Chiapas in Mexico,
in a Batilcop Maya village, andthat's where I give my honors to
my ancestors of earth, myancestors of land and my
(02:46):
ancestors of blood that havegrown my soul and the
strengthility with which thelife in the magical realism of
(03:09):
Indigenous dreamlands bring intomy work.
As I said, I'm a truth bearer.
I'm also a trickster, a dreamerand maybe a culture shifter,
but I'm also a scholar.
I'm a postdoctorate researcherat the University of California,
(03:29):
berkeley, where I am carrying amulti-year project on
indigenous forms ofcontemplation through
interdisciplinary approaches tothe transcendent experience that
are embodied in prosocialbehavior, that's, spiritual
exercises or practices ofreverence, of ethics, of
(03:53):
compassion and a sense of awe,love and sacredness, and I've
been working with indigenouscommunities of the Americas, and
my work, then, will take me toAsia as well, and to Africa to
continue this work.
And it is how, along with eldersand the community itself, we
(04:17):
can bring indigenous ontologistsand epistemologists in the way
we do research in academia andhow we can elevate our
indigenous sciences to createbridges in which we broaden the
sense of what it means sciencesin plural, and then we create
(04:42):
together ways of findingsolutions that benefit the
larger planetary communities ofrelatives relatives of, of
course, the human species, butmore than human relatives and
the whole of the environmentalearth community.
(05:07):
I'm really excited to speakwith you.
I'm, of course, a listener ofthe podcast from the very
beginning.
I love the work that we inhabit, so I'm excited to be here.
(05:49):
Thank you so much, sandy.
Bill Adam, thank you.
Speaker 2 (05:54):
Thank you, and I think what you're referring to
is really the transformation ofthe academy into something more
life-affirming, life-givingrather than extractive kind of
knowledge-based systems.
And in that spirit we'd like totalk about your book which of
(06:17):
course has just come out,flourishing Kin Indigenous Wis
for collective well-being.
We've looked at, we've beenreading it, treasure it, and can
you talk more about how yourwork is sort of responding to
(06:44):
the doctrine of discovery, thetrauma of new world thinking,
you know, in light of your owntradition and in light of your
work with indigenous peoples allover the world?
Speaker 4 (07:00):
Yeah, thank you so much, and I think I'll also tell
a little bit of the story ofhow the book came to be, because
I was approached by thepublisher for a book on
indigenous practices ofcontemplation and knowing what
(07:32):
the mindfulness movement hasbrought to the West, which I
find it to be well profoundlycolonial Because it goes to
other systems of believing inthe mindfulness movement.
It's mainly influenced by EastAsian traditions, mainly
Buddhist tradition, mainlyTibetan Buddhist practices, but
there are also other practicesfrom Theravada traditions as
(07:54):
well, Buddhist Theravadatraditions that then were
brought to the West byprivileged white mostly men in
the 70s, 80s, and then withreally good intentions, that
must be said as well, intentionson trying to bring the wisdom
(08:17):
of these traditions tounderstand the way we create our
sense of self, the way wecreate our sense of self, the
way we create culturalnarratives and how we can
transform those.
But at the moment of thentranslating these practices into
(08:37):
a Western system, then thepractices started acquiring the
individualist personality of theWest.
There was also some that I seeas cognitive imperialism as well
(08:57):
, of seeing other practices intraditions and then thinking
that we know better than thetradition itself.
What are the elements that areimportant for that practice and
then bring them the way that wetranslate it into our community
in the West.
And so that started bysecularizing these practices and
(09:24):
then depriving them from themost important aspect, that was,
the community compassion, youknow, like the working for the
well-being of a community,larger community.
So that the mindfulnessmovement then became a way of
improving the individual, a wayof improving the individual
(09:47):
right, Improving the self.
Better concentration, bettersleep, all these different
benefits for cardiovascularsystems, All of those are really
good.
But at the moment ofsecularizing these practices,
(10:09):
one the practices lost thecapacity to fall in awe and
reverence with the communitythat we live in.
And then the practices lost theresponsibility to return to
that community right or to workfor the benefit of that
community.
(10:29):
So for many years, um, I havebeen speaking and writing
against this view, this verywhite, privileged view, uh, of
of contemplation, and starteddoing work as I started also
getting into the academic workof contemplative studies, which
(10:53):
is now a 30-decade field ofstudies.
Like academic studies, therewas absolutely no representation
of indigenous voices or wisdomin that field, and then it was
mostly, as I was mentioning, thecolonial way of approaching
(11:16):
contemplation.
So my work has been to bringindigenous life ways and
indigenous, very sophisticatedsystems of contemplative
sciences and the ways that thesesystems return that sense of
reverence to the largerplanetary community.
(11:38):
And so when I was approachedfor the book, I said that a book
of only practices would justperpetrate this.
Narrow peoples of the worldhave lived, continue to live,
that we carry under our skin,and then these practices will
(12:13):
just become commodified, rightas they have become with the
mindfulness movement.
I said that also, being this myvery first book, I needed to
give the part of my own storyyou know, part of my life and
really make people look beyondthe facade of complacency that I
(12:42):
feel that these mindfulpractices bring, that it's all
for the comfort, cushioning andperhaps even perpetuating ideas
of who has access to thisbenefit or discomfort, or
(13:02):
because the world is a mess.
Then I go to my retreat inwhich I'm safe and it's enough
for me to send love from acushion in my perfect paradise
mountain, instead of returningand setting with the people,
instead of returning and settingwith the people, working with
(13:24):
the people to change thoseconditions that continue to
bring the struggles to most ofthe world.
And so I pushed to bring thesemore important components into
the book.
Fortunately, the publisheragreed and then I started
(13:46):
bringing these stories, many ofthe stories that these
population in the contemplativeworld or in the mindfulness
world are resistant to see inthe eye.
Right, Because this complacentplace is a blind place.
(14:14):
Right, it's not ready to dealwith fragility or it's not ready
to deal with their ownvulnerability, is not ready to
reckon with the horrors thathave been imposed upon the whole
world right of genocide andsuch.
So I pushed for that to be inthe book, to be in the book.
(14:47):
I must say also that I was askedto be not as vociferous as I
tend to be.
You know, when I speak, live,that I tend to be really
vociferous about what I live,what I have lived, what I see.
My peoples continue living,what I see.
I have worked for almost 20years in humanitarian work
(15:10):
around the world with indigenouspeoples around the world, and I
see these situations that havebrought many of these
communities to have 20 years ofless life expectancy than others
, the non-Indigenouscounterparts.
(15:31):
In the US alone, Indigenouscommunities have seven years
less of life expectancy.
Seven years less of lifeexpectancy.
So when I speak aboutchallenges, I'm not only
speaking metaphorically.
There are metrics that show whythe lack of access to education
(15:52):
, to medicine, to life safe, ofcrime, etc.
Are more impaired or rampant inindigenous communities, right
so?
Speaker 3 (16:09):
well where we live.
You know this is where thecolonists came into this
territory and through the ErieCanal.
It was an artificial waterway,right, and living conditions
were so oppressive for everybodythe immigrants coming into this
territory, this artificialstream, and it's the kind of, um
(16:44):
, you know, the manufacturing of, of materials and excavation of
resources and and they werethrown together with so many
other cultural groups, the irishand the italians and the
spanish, and you know um,everybody's thrown together.
But out of this situation aroseall these new uh religions.
It was called the Burned OverDistrict because they were all
(17:04):
searching for something Right.
So first of all, these newreligions were already
disjointed from theircommunities and their homeland.
So you know, it presented thegroundwork for a new kind of
identity of being human, but itwas disconnected, you know, from
(17:26):
everything.
And to make it even morepersonal into the current time
frame here, phil and I met inBoulder, colorado, and that's
kind of the new age capital ofthis country, along with
Berkeley.
I think we're well aware ofmindfulness, that whole movement
and the striving to thisutopian vision of the personal
(17:53):
connection to God, and we oftenheard that expressed God is
speaking through me and we oftenheard that expressed God is
speaking through me.
You know, for people that hadthis inspired thought, it was
always attributed that it onlycame through them and it was
coming directly from God.
So we're very much aware ofwhat you're having a problem
(18:14):
with and trying to, you know,dispel.
You know that this kind ofmovement of mindfulness has some
problems, you know.
Speaker 2 (18:26):
And then, of course, with the burned over district
along the Erie Canal, which isbeing celebrated this year, by
the way, for this 200-yearanniversary comes the
dispossession of theHaudenosaunee.
You know, we're in theheartland of the Haudenosaunee
territory.
So simultaneous to theattainment of these new
(18:49):
relationships to the divine,including Mormons and others, is
the dispossession of indigenouspeoples right, so religion
becomes a problem simultaneously, that it's also a kind of
(19:11):
window in some ways as well, andI find that you're working at
that kind of juncture in yourbook working at that kind of
juncture in your book and thispossession of indigenous peoples
, and I should emphasize that Ifeel in the end it all comes to
(19:33):
land, right, it all comes towealth.
Speaker 4 (19:36):
You know the wealth of the lands, but the
dispossession goes into tangibleand intangible heritage of
indigenous peoples.
Right, I mean part of also mywork, and in the book there's a
section that's rightrelationships with indigenous
peoples.
When approaching our spiritualpractices with indigenous
(20:00):
peoples?
When approaching our spiritualpractices, Because many of the
spiritual practices in manyindigenous traditions have been
extracted and brought into theWest, not only the intangible
heritage, which are rituals,ceremonies, songs, dances, but
(20:23):
also the tangible heritage, likethe materials, even to the
point of genetic material, inorder to patent our sacred
practices, spiritual practicesfor just another kind of
business model in the West,similar to the mindfulness
(20:46):
movement.
But then now, in the aspect ofwhat indigenous spiritual
practices are but that the Westcalls psychedelics, and in the
end, is this then again takingthe wealth of the truth bearers,
(21:08):
in a way of the people that arecloser to the original wisdom
of the earth, in order to try tosort how to heal these profound
wounds that the West itself hascreated on themselves, right?
Speaker 2 (21:31):
So I read it.
Speaker 4 (21:34):
Yeah, and in the end I think it all has to do with
the doctrine of discovery.
You know, like this is, this isthe um, the, the was the the
first link in our conversation.
I understand why all thesedifferent groups trying to look
for new religions, news, newpractices, new rituals, new um,
(21:57):
even that medicalized model thatI find so absurd, looking for
ways to heal themselves.
But rather than looking intojust this superficial wound
(22:18):
that's oozing, pause from thehistorical damage that has
created.
We really need to reckon and goto the very rotting origin of
this disease, which is thatbelief system of Abrahamic
(22:44):
traditions in which, in the veryfirst verses of the Genesis,
there is this idea that that menor that translation better said
no.
The translation of those verseswas that that men was to
(23:05):
dominate all of creation, right.
But then all of creationsuddenly became an object of
service, sort of like deprivedof life.
Then, of course, when I speakabout men in this context, it
was not all men right, contextit was not and abused right.
(23:48):
So if we start from a beliefsystem that has these seeds of
hierarchy and abuse anddomination and extraction and
wealth in the end, then what dowe expect?
(24:12):
Right, centuries and millenniaafter, that belief system has
been ingrained, and not only ina closed location, but it has
been imposed upon the world overright Right.
(24:33):
Since the Middle Ages.
Speaker 3 (24:34):
Well, in this country the Jesuits brought, you know,
the tenets of the doctrine ofdiscovery into the Northeast,
and this was indigenous peopleunder the great law of peace,
the Haudenosaunee, and they bragabout having Christianized,
like the Wyandotte and Innuwithin 30 years, completely
(24:55):
Christianized them, right, andthey wrote their histories about
who we were.
And then you jump ahead to themid 1700s, another hundred years
past that, and you have, likeCotterwaller Colden, writing the
history of the five nations.
He was the last governor of theNew York colony before they
(25:20):
gained independence andseparated from Britain.
But he said all we know aboutthe Haudenosaunee came from the
French, and those documents werenot correct.
You know.
They were manipulated toproject the wrong kind of
culture.
They forced women to marrytheir husbands within the first
(25:42):
couple of years and take an oathof subservience to their
husband, and these are peoplethat followed the matrilineal
clan system, right.
And then the priests wouldn'tlet them hunt unless they
accepted Jesus Christ as theirLord and Savior.
So only then could they hunt.
But then they hunted on such amassive scale that they killed
(26:08):
the beaver, they practicallyeradicated the beaver and
jeopardized the venison, andthese were meats that were
traded, you know, with theHaudenosaunee, and so this
intrusion of Christianity reallyhad such a profound disruption.
And then the Christians, theJesuits, had forced to be
(26:32):
Christian.
The Haudenosaunee saw they werea threat and warfare started at
that point.
So the Haudenosaunee couldprotect this part of the country
.
But that's not how the historywas written.
They said the Haudenosauneecould protect this part of the
country, but that's not how thehistory was written.
They said the Haudenosauneewere always at war with the
Wyandotte.
And it's not true.
(26:53):
And then Codwalder thenreiterates that kind of a
history.
So we can't even trust primarytexts that founded this country.
Of course, being indigenous,that's pretty obvious.
But you know you can't get anyauthentic history from going
back to those texts because theywere texts.
(27:15):
They were writing down the lawof future generations and how
they would identify being human.
It goes so deep.
Speaker 2 (27:26):
And then of course they you know those primary
texts love to say that they'renow exterminated.
You know all of these practicesare gone this is part of the
rap that the Jesuits weresending back to European kings
that we've been so successfulthat you know, they no longer
(27:46):
practice their heathen ways orwhatever.
But right down the road here wehave the most traditional
Haudenosaunee government in theUnited States Right that have
managed to basically keepeverything quiet.
You know, and I'm sure yourfolks have done the same.
(28:09):
You know they've had tocamouflage and, and you know,
keep their traditions hidden.
Speaker 3 (28:19):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (28:20):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (28:21):
You're talking about this communication and
relationship with the naturalworld which defines us right and
going back to ToddWallader-Colden and his history
of the Five Nations, he waswriting about these orators and
speakers who were men of suchfew words and they had no way of
(28:45):
expressing complex ideas whenthey spoke, but they used
metaphors all the time.
He wrote this in his history.
They wrote metaphors and it wasa more effective way of of um
pulling out the passion ofpeople listening, and that's
(29:05):
because when you're connectedwith the natural world, you see
the world in metaphor.
It's not just that they spokein metaphor, it's a different
way of being human in this world, and you speak a lot about
metaphor in your book and it gotme thinking about Adelwalder
and and and some of thetraditional leaders here.
Speaker 2 (29:28):
They refer to the language almost being cinematic.
Speaker 4 (29:31):
You know, there's so much there that you just see,
you know, in the language andthat resonates, I think, with
what you're saying as well yeah,and and well, one of the
beautiful things also about thefreedom I guess that I had with
the book was, or relative, thatI was able to use my more
(29:56):
natural speech, which is muchmore poetic, right, and as you
(30:32):
know, an academic book would notwelcome that kind of talk, but
in a academics.
So it's all this pointing tothis multiplicity in which we
understand the world, right,because a misinterpretation or a
huge misunderstandinginterpretation or a huge
misunderstanding aboutindigenous peoples many times is
that, oh, we are not scientificenough or rigorous in our
(30:58):
sciences, right, and that justshows a profound ignorance of
what indigenous sciences are andhow rigorous in the observation
and analysis of phenomena.
And then the narratives that wecreate to make sense of that
world.
And, of course, if seeing itfrom the very singular, narrow
(31:21):
view of Western science, inwhich there's an object that's
inert, that one can study forutilitarian reasons, then of
course it doesn't make sense,right.
But if we see it from themultifaceted and
multidimensional aspect ofindigenous sciences, in which
there is a dialogue,intersubjective dialogue, with
(31:42):
our subject of study, in whichwe are both transformed at the
process of being in communionwith this process, then our
narratives of that are notthesis and hypothesis, but
perhaps are poems and ritualsand ceremonies and dances.
(32:05):
And then there's this profound,true living in communion with
the whole environment with whichwe are allowing ourselves to be
transformed as well.
Speaker 3 (32:20):
Right, right, so there are so many systems of
intelligence by which we'rerelated, so we have to be
vigilant and paying attentionand listening to those systems.
We're not in charge of anything, you know, and we can't help
along any of these systems,because they're helping us along
, frankly, right and they're.
Speaker 4 (32:42):
Even our body is comprised of these systems, I
mean we're just kind of hosts,you know, yeah, and you'd say
it's so well, uh, sandy, becausewe are embodying this wisdom,
this life ways, these values.
Right, we are embodying them.
It's not just ideas, no, it'snot just, uh, words, it's it's
(33:08):
all of our being, uh, that'sthat's out there and also that's
very participatory.
It's not, it's not all thisindividual who's out there doing
their thing, right, it's alwaysthis, this changing this
transformative aspect of thewhole body, right, and that's
(33:28):
why we need the sound, we needthe movement, we need all of
these different ways of creatingwisdom that are very times
overlooked.
Speaker 3 (33:40):
I know there are some nationalist movements that want
to have pure, purity in theirculture and eradicate, you know,
diversity.
But the earth is diverse andwith this influx of immigrants
coming into this country, alongwith them came the food sources
that changed the landscapes.
(34:02):
So you know the landscapes, soyou know you cannot think in
that way of purity of race or,you know, being against
diversity, because we live in adiverse world you said it's ever
changing, right, and we can'tcontrol it.
Speaker 4 (34:22):
It's that idea of purity.
Yeah, I mean, it's that idea ofpurity.
I mean, how much sufferingcould that be bringing to
someone?
It's like demanding to the soilto be just one thing.
And how many universes are in asingle grain of sand.
Right, we are immersed in thatmultiplicity and pushing for a
(34:45):
singularity.
Immersed in that multiplicityand pushing for a singularity
just deprives us of passion, ofawe, of surprise, love,
reverence for every singlemanifestation of life.
Speaker 1 (35:02):
Do you need help catching up on today's topic or
do you want to learn more aboutthe resources mentioned?
If so, please check our websiteat
podcastdoctrineofdiscoveryorgfor more information and, if you
like this episode, review it onApple, Spotify or wherever you
listen to podcasts.
And now back to theconversation.
Speaker 4 (35:23):
We start talking about all these systems of of
oppression and domination andthen we open this huge uh trunk
of, of um of demons, you know,of stories that, uh, that are
all related and and and that are, I mean, all related in the
(35:45):
sense that that we start diggingand we find that the these
delusions no delusions of ofpurity of um of belief systems,
systems end up wounding the verysame people that they are
(36:10):
trying to quote.
Unquote, save right.
Speaker 3 (36:16):
Well, phil, when we moved here, phil was teaching
his Indigenous Religions coursein values and he said you know,
these students, they get turnedoff.
If they can't find value in howit pertains to them, they're
not going to care.
(36:36):
This was, you know what, 30years ago, but you know, I think
it's changing.
It's shifting in the timeswe're living in.
Now it's becoming urgent.
Speaker 4 (36:46):
Right, and I'm sure you see it with your students,
feel that I'm also very hopefulto see the youth movement.
You know, hopeful to see theyouth movement that has taken so
much commitment with theclimate catastrophe, the climate
emergency, to really be strongparticipants to create awareness
(37:12):
and to from political decisionmakers that things start really
moving towards benefiting theenvironment.
We know that now we have ahuman right to a healthy
environment that includes thehealth of our bodies of water,
(37:36):
our skies, our soils.
Pushing for that sort of rightsof nature, that personhood for
all these different relatives,that is very natural for
indigenous communities the worldover, right, that there is a
(37:57):
consensus in the personhood ofour environments, right.
And to see such resistance aswe are seeing today we were
talking about how concerning itis, but also how much it renews
(38:17):
the commitment to bring, inwhatever way, whatever gift in
whatever certain circle ofinfluence, the possibilities of
of change, that view, you know,of change, those, those ideas
that keeps us separated,isolated, um, deprived of joy,
(38:40):
really, of being in community,of valuing the diversity of
community.
And I guess part of also my bookwas to not only push or
challenge the reader intoreckoning from a place of
(39:04):
awareness and deep compassion.
But also, what are the waysforward, what are the pathways
that we can take forward?
And to know that, while thetransitions are are challenging,
perhaps exhausting, that naturein all her beauty shows us that
(39:29):
it always re-emerges right, italways re-emerges.
And, and it is part of ourcommitment to compose all those
old stories, all thosenarratives of me and purity and
(39:50):
domination, and start allowingthem to return to the earth so
that then they give life to anew way of being that has all
these values of kindness andcare and commitment and
(40:11):
reverence and awe and love forlife.
That we have a possibility tochange, that we can make a
difference and that we have toget together to do that.
That it is precisely thechallenge to isolation and that
(40:34):
the more we get together, thesooner we change this.
Speaker 3 (40:39):
And the more we get together, the sooner we change
this.
A big peg in this is to supportIndigenous people and their
values and their practices,because this is ancient
knowledge that can benefiteverybody.
And you know the populationsare still dwindling but you know
they're still practicing theirceremonies here at On Dog.
(41:03):
It's such a rigorous ceremonialcycle.
Oren has even Oren Lyons haseven said you know, our families
and our clans come to ceremonyand we don't come to feel good.
We never go there just to feelgood.
We have a responsibility to dothese dances and say these words
(41:26):
and, you know, offer these umpieces of clothing and artwork
and everything else.
It's so.
It's our responsibility to dothat.
It's not um self.
What is, what is the self?
Wellness?
Speaker 2 (41:41):
it's not about wellness.
Speaker 3 (41:43):
It's not about our individuals about connecting
this regenerative power of whowe are with this live alive
earth right yeah, community andwhen you when you're um.
Speaker 2 (41:57):
When you were talking about um, you know the
mindfulness movement and kind ofthe new age movement and the
new age appropriation of thesepractices.
They always make the mistake,always that this is somehow
self-help.
You know it's not.
It's not for the benefit of thewhat?
(42:18):
How did she put it?
How do you put it in your book?
The more than human world ohyes.
Speaker 3 (42:25):
I love that phrase.
Speaker 2 (42:25):
I love that More than human More than human, because
they are more than us.
Absolutely.
We're more dependent on themthan they are on us.
I want to attribute this toAdam, the producer, and I want
this in the podcast.
(42:46):
So Adam says is this the last,final intense gasp of the
doctrine of discovery, trying toforeclose change and
transformation?
I mean what we're experiencingnow.
Maybe we're in a moment right,a moment as you were saying that
(43:07):
there is.
We're in a moment oftransformation and something's
got to give.
And I think, going back to thestudents, the students
understand that they feel thatin their own bodies, they feel
that in their anxiety Most ofthem are overwhelmed with
(43:29):
anxiety and so you know, butthrough that, know that
something has to give, right?
Speaker 4 (43:39):
So I'm wondering are we in that moment yet, right?
So I'm wondering, are we in thatmoment yet?
I?
I I feel those moments has hasstarted and continue, and and
one thing that we should neverum forget is that these tensions
are all part of one same sacred, larger dance, cosmic dance,
(44:00):
right, that it's not that theywill ever end, thank goodness,
right.
This tension is the power ofcreativity to want to come out
and transform.
Transform from the staleness ofsomething that is already not
(44:21):
giving.
That is not, um, uh, sterile,that is sterile, right, and the
youth sense that in their bodies.
They feel it in their tummieswhen they hear indigenous
speakers and they get up and saylike this is what I want.
No, I'm tired of the whatever,um more, um death, ways of
(44:46):
seeing things as, as inert aswell.
Right, and uh, I believe that,yes, if this is a moment of
change, it will be challenging,but all the more important that
we return to this community,right, so that we continue
empowering each other,supporting each other in this
(45:08):
change.
And the good thing is that,just as Oren said, right, he is
such an elder that has inspiredmany of us and then, hopefully,
we will also keep inspiring theyouth that will come and then
they will inspire the next youththat come and like that right.
(45:29):
We come never alone.
We come with our wholecommunities behind us, in front
of us, that are rising ourvoices right.
So we are never, never alone,once we realize that we are part
of a very responsive, veryalive Mother Earth planet that,
(45:52):
as a great mother, she's alsoscolding the child that's
playing with fire.
She's also scolding the childthat's playing with fire right,
with the fire of an intellectthat is not really channeled in
the way that is ofresponsibility and of care or
reverence.
Speaker 3 (46:11):
We're carrying seeds from past generations and
planting them for future.
So we're never it's what you'resaying, we're like never really
in the present, because it'salways moving and changing, yeah
, and in the maya, in the mayatradition.
Speaker 4 (46:28):
You know of my, my upbringing and ancestors.
We are always in this spiraltime that is always necessarily
past and always necessarilyfuture, and we are all in this
moment, being informed by bothof these different dimensions,
(46:49):
and that creates how committedwe are, how aware, how conscious
is our action today.
You know so, then, we don'tallow ourselves to dwindle or in
hopelessness.
No, rather, we know that wehave to act because that's
(47:10):
independently of the outcome.
That's just what we should bedoing right, for the benefit of
all we should be doing right forthe benefit of all.
This has been an inspiringconversation with Yuria.
Speaker 2 (47:27):
Saldwin.
Speaker 4 (47:28):
Saldwin, yes, saldwin .
Speaker 2 (47:28):
And the book again is Flourishing Kin Indigenous
Wisdom for Collective Well-Being.
Thank you so much, yuria, forbeing with us today, and I knew
this was going to be aninspiring conversation, and we
thank you greatly for all you'redoing on all our behalf.
Speaker 4 (47:52):
Thank you so much, dear Sandy and Phil and Adam.
We do do together, butdefinitely you have opened paths
for many of these voices toreach more.
So may we keep.
May we keep sowing those landswith love and care and reverence
.
Thank you, be well, thank you,thank you.
Speaker 1 (48:19):
The producers of this podcast were Adam DJ Brett and
Jordan Lone Colon.
Our intro and outro is socialdancing music by Oris Edwards
and Regis Cook.
This podcast is funded incollaboration with the Henry
Luce Foundation, syracuseUniversity and Hendricks Chapel
and the Indigenous ValuesInitiative.
If you like this episode,please check out our website and
(48:40):
make sure to subscribe.
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