Breaking into Asset Management: Advice from a Boutique CEO

In this Career Insight episode, Anthony Cheung speaks with Ben Hayward, co-founder and CEO of TwentyFour Asset Management, about his unexpected journey into finance. From studying history of art and pursuing advertising to launching a fixed-income boutique in the midst of the 2008 financial crisis, Ben shares invaluable lessons in career adaptability, leadership, and resilience.

Whether you're a student eyeing your first internship or a young professional navigating your next move, this conversation offers practical advice on breaking into finance, understanding complex credit products, and thriving in asset management. Learn how to simplify financial storytelling, build confidence under pressure, and shape company culture from the top down.

(00:00) Intro to Ben Hayward & 24AM

(04:42) From Art to Finance

(08:07) Starting Out at Citi

(13:03) Becoming an Entrepreneur

(19:23) Managing Stress & Resilience

(25:40) Building Culture at 24AM

(34:10) The power of storytelling

(43:27) Asset Management Explained

(47:35) What makes Fixed Income Unique

(52:16) Advice on Confidence & Resilience

(56:24) Career Tips for Success

Find out more about TwentyFour Asset Management

Episode Transcript

(00:00):
Hello and welcome to this CareerInsight episode.
I'm joined by Ben Hayward, the founding partner and CEO of 24
Asset Management here in London.Ben's journey took him from
studying history of art with ambitions of working in creative
advertising to 9 years at City in alternative investments
before Co founding 24 right in the middle of the Lehman

(00:21):
Brothers collapse. So in this conversation, not
only we'll talk about those things, but we're going to look
to unpack how to simplify complex credit products, what
makes fixed income and entrepreneurship so rewarding.
So plenty of practical advice for anyone starting out their
career in finance. So Ben, great to have you with
us. How are you?

(00:42):
Thank you, Quincy. Yeah, I'm.
I'm all good. Thank you.
How are you? Yes, great.
And we're both back from holidays.
So we're, we're both pretty fresh and and ready to go.
So maybe we could start from thebeginning.
So you could briefly introduce yourself and what you do at 24
asset management, Sure. So, so as you said, my name is

(01:03):
Ben Haywood. I'm one of the seven founding
partners for 24 Asset Management.
And as you said, you know, we launched it in, in the the depth
of the global financial crisis. So from launch in 2008 until the
end of 2021, I was one of the portfolio managers leading our
asset backed securities business.

(01:24):
And then in Jan 22, I stepped into the CEO role and I've been
doing that since then. So I don't have an investment
role specifically anymore. I do sit on our asset allocation
investment committee and I am responsible for the finance and
HR parts of our business. I sit on various internal

(01:45):
committees. And so some of those are
functional ones like the risk and compliance committee, but
I'm also on our executive committee, obviously I'll leave
that and our Board of directors and then I sit on various
committees as well. And our parent company vomitable
such as their investment management committee.
I, I guess the, the sort of corepart of my role is that I'm
responsible for delivering on our business plan and I'm

(02:05):
responsible really with a few others for the day-to-day
management of the business on a holistic basis.
And that obviously includes a fair amount of client work as
well. And then really I suppose I'm
the main conduit between 24 and our owners from table.
So that kind of summarizes or I guess what is a relatively sort
of far reaching role. And maybe just a quick word as

(02:27):
well about 24 asset management themselves in terms of what you
do from a product investment perspective.
Sure. So we're a fixed income fund
management. So I think we would probably
define ourselves as being a boutique guy.
We specialize in in one thing and everybody at 24, whether it
is our obviously our PMS, but also our risk people,

(02:50):
operations, marketing, sales, you know, whatever function 24
everyone is only focused on on doing that one thing, which is
which is managing that that sortof fixed income business.
So we, we have 3 broad business lines.
We have multi sector bonds running strategic income funds.
We have what we call outcome driven.
It's basically investment grade credits and that is is trying to

(03:13):
define and deliver a an attractive return, but for a
measured volatility target. And so it's kind of a sharp
ratio type strategy. And then we have our European
ABS business, the one I used to run.
So three kind of core businessesrelatively discreet, never
jumping too much into into new markets or trying to do things
to two different. And so within those three

(03:37):
business lines, we run pooled funds where a bunch of clients
are putting money in together, taking it out and so on and so
on, as well as what we'd call segregated mandates or or
managed accounts where you have one client and you're doing a
version of one of your main strategies just for that client.
So three business lines and I guess 2 main types of business

(03:57):
that we're doing, they're pooledand segregated and doing that
across the the whole world in terms of client base.
So we have a pretty large focus on on the UK because that's
where we started our business. But via our parent company
volunteer, well, we now distribute through EMEA, Asia,
US, LATAM, US offshore and so a pretty global business now and

(04:18):
so. Right.
And yeah, we'll definitely dive into some of those those words.
So if anyone's listening and haven't quite come across some
of that before, we'll definitelylook to to go into that for
sure. But I mentioned at the very top
in the intro, and this is alwayswhere we start, which is right
early on to align with some of the people listening, which is
when you're a student. And I remember when we caught

(04:41):
up, I was just so interested looking before I met you in
person, I looked in your LinkedIn and you you studied
history of art at Bristol. And I was like, OK, so how how's
this guy, his CEO and a Co founder of this this successful
asset management firm? And then you started talking
about your original intentions to work in the creative
advertising industry. So I guess explain to me that

(05:02):
that period and then the kind ofwhere finance popped up and how
that came about as a young person.
I mean, I think it really, it really sort of started with with
course choice at university. I wasn't very decided on what I
wanted to read at university until I actually had to make a
decision. And so I showed you something I

(05:24):
was interested in, which was, which was art, not as a, on a,
on a, as a practical subject in terms of, of being an artist
myself, but in terms of studyingthings that I liked, which
which, you know, took me througha wide range of, of, of art from
race us all the way up to, to modernism.
But when it came to, to sort of starting thinking about careers

(05:44):
into my second year, because I was doing that kind of an arts
course, there were no natural leads into what I would do
afterwards. So I kind of started thinking
from from scratch and really sort of sort of looking at where
I get some experience that summer and I interned at a
advertising firm, Bartleburgle Hegarty and also at KPMG and,

(06:07):
and as it was then Cooper's and Lybrand and, and they were all
very interesting and offered very different things.
I mean, advertising was was verycool, very creative, you know,
very interesting. A lot of things that instantly
appealed to it to me. But then by the same token, the,
the, the time I spent at KPMG, they took me through the whole

(06:28):
business at, at every different level that you could be.
So I followed everybody from a graduate on one day to a partner
on another day and saw that the breadth of what they did and you
know, what they were doing for clients, the range of services
they were providing for clients.And you know, that also was, was
intriguing. I'd say that I probably had a, a
sort of slightly stronger preference for, for advertising,

(06:49):
applied to advertising firms, didn't get a single interview.
Applied to one account. This firm got an interview, got
a job offer. And so the decision was, was
almost made sort of slightly by accident, I guess at that point
in time, but but it worked out. It worked out well, you know, I
was at KPMG for a year. So I didn't finish the, the
three-year training course because having graduated, going

(07:13):
straight into the, the three-year sort of enforced exam
process that you, that you went into then wasn't what I wanted
to do. So then started looking again
for a for a different role and decided that having worked in
the financial institutions part of KPMG, that that banking or
financial services was was of interest and ended up at

(07:35):
Citigroup. Not massively by design, it has
to be said. No, I think that that last
comment is probably a good one for people to hear because
actually of all the people I interview, it's incredible.
It's like it's almost 100% hit rate.
It's everyone says it wasn't by design.
And I think that's a good message for young people because
I think there's a lot of pressure for this perfect

(07:56):
journey from start to finish at the age of 21 through to your
entire working life. But I think you get to
understand that that's not the case for almost everyone.
So let's talk about early careerfoundations in a city.
And I know you were there for 9 years and I did see as well in,
in my notes when I was researching that you're managing
over $100 billion across ABS andcredit.

(08:18):
And I just wondered then, you know, that role maybe a little
bit of a chance to, you know, bust some jargon in terms of
what are some of those things, but also what are the biggest
takeaways from working in such alarge structured institution
like like a city? Yeah, I mean, it's, it's an, it
was an interesting time. I had three different roles at

(08:41):
Citi culminating in in the investment role when I was
managing or Co managing with, with the team that large
portfolio. But I think the the interesting
thing really was that while Citi, well, I I joined Citibank
and it was a big institution andand quite quickly it became
Citigroup merging with Travellers and became an even
bigger institution. We were a very small and quite a

(09:04):
discreet team within that. We literally had closed locked
doors to to the rest of of the bank.
So we operated on a very identifiable basis.
You know, we knew what we were doing, we knew how to do it and
we were responsible for for delivering that.
And I think there are a lot of things that were very positive
about that experience for me. You know, the there were, there

(09:26):
was a very high calibre team there.
There's a lot of pride and responsibility taken in the
quality of what they did. And I think as a young person,
you really feed off off that desire for excellence.
And I know that taught me a lot and hopefully the lessons that
I've kept with me today. But also, I think the fact that
it was quite small and left devices and also very creative,

(09:52):
it was always striving to do things in that were novel and
and entrepreneurial. And I think that really also
created that, you know, awareness within me that it was
perfectly possible to go away and and make a real difference
within the business that you were working with it.

(10:12):
So, you know, it was responsiblefor setting up a, a certain part
of it was it was the creator of a certain part of the fund
management industry back then what became known as structured
investment vehicles. They they originated out of that
department. So that was, was definitely a
key take away. It was also a very good business
that progressing people internally.
It recognized that even if you just because you hire someone in

(10:36):
a middle or back office role, and that's where I started that
that was a possibility that you could, you could take those
people and move them through thebusiness into front office
trading, investment management type type roles.
And they're very good at identifying people, moving them
on, supporting them, changing their career path in in that

(11:00):
way. And again, I think that's
something that has stayed with me and it's something that we we
do look at trying to continue tocontinue doing it at 24.
I'd say the flip side though, isthat there were parts of, of my
time there where you could really feel the big business,
you know, hand that was guiding what was going on.

(11:20):
And, and while I, I say they're very good at progressing people
in, in their role, they had a very, very structured way that
they progressed people from a title and, and level point of
view. So literally there was a, a, a,
a file that had a tick box exercise running through saying

(11:42):
whether people could be promotedfrom assistant vice president to
vice president to director and and so on.
And that wasn't something that that sort of resonated
particularly well with me. I mean it, you know, I made it
work for me, but it wasn't something that I thought made a
lot of sense. It always struck me that
people's careers and their progression should be more
bespoke than than that. I get when you're running an

(12:05):
entity with, you know, probably hundreds of thousands of of
employees that you probably feelyou have to provide some kind of
framework, but it was a little bit too structured and
unorganised. And that really led on to to
sort of push back against havinghaving people focus on on titles

(12:27):
and progression in, in that way.And because it isn't really
anything real, I would we would much rather focus on on
progressing people and developing them from a career
and a responsibility and obviously with that a
compensation point of view. Yeah, that's a really good
analysis and description of of that.

(12:47):
And I think it's a a good way and insight for people to see
when they're considering these types of places to go from big
business to start up and everything in between.
So maybe we can jump then too, and we're going to kind of
circle back to some of those themes that you were covering,
which is then the leap into entrepreneurship.
Because some might say, you know, you're, you're in this

(13:10):
seat, you're managing a large amount of money.
You are going through those, I'massuming those hurdles up to,
you know, directorship, MD type levels.
So the decision comes to go, OK,I'm going to do this on my own
and obviously there was other founding partners with you.
So talk to me about a that decision, the decision to then

(13:30):
leave what in some respects, I guess for all the young people,
at least they'll be thinking whywould you leave that scenario?
So that's Part 1. And then also just you mentioned
as well that Lehman's just happened at the point of when
all, I'm assuming that came after the decision to leave
city. So yeah, just that little period

(13:51):
of your life, I'd love to know the rationale and what was going
through your mind at that point.Yeah, I mean, they're really
good questions. And I think you've got to be
quite when you're answering thiskind of question, you've got to
be quite focused on not having some kind of survivor bias to
what the answers are. But I think that, you know, I
remember being at being at City and recognizing all of the good

(14:11):
things and the frustrations thatthat were there at that point in
time and and the opportunities that were in front of me.
But when, when I, when you get approached by the calibre of
people who approached me to set up our business and saying,
look, you know, this is a group of people we're putting together
to launch this business. This is what we want to do.

(14:34):
And recognizing how that had happened really, you know,
within the city. But but the same kind of thing
starting from scratch and building a business, It was it
was a very attractive call to answer, you know, the my my sort
of Co founding partners. I was the youngest of the group,
but the, you know, the other people were people I either knew

(14:57):
relatively well, one or two of them, but the rest of them were
people I'd heard of and heard offor good reasons.
And, you know, it was a little bit like being scouted by a
Premier League football team. You, you know, you have to ask
yourself the question, why wouldyou turn it down?
So, so that was really, I guess what, what pulled me out of
city. I mean, there were, there were a
couple of sort of more minor pressures that were pushing me

(15:19):
out, but it was really the pull of going to do something that
was very attractive with a groupof people who, you know, why
wouldn't you, why wouldn't you want to go and work with them at
that point in time? I would also say, I mean, you
know, believe me, this hadn't happened at that point.
Nothing had happened at that point.
We were at the probably at the back end of a pretty stable run
in markets that had gone on for several years.

(15:42):
I mean, the last sort of big tumult really was probably LTCM
and, and the tech bubble and, and that was many years before.
So you know, you, you probably were thinking at that.
Well, I was probably thinking atthat point in time, well, how
could this go wrong? You know, there were various
businesses being set up at that point in time that were raising
significant money and, and doingvery well.
Not all of them obviously lastedthrough the next couple of

(16:04):
years. So it was pretty for those
reasons, I'd say that that I, that I decided decided to, to
make that move that that picturechanged, you know, relatively
quickly. It, it wasn't long after we
found a 24 that Lehman's happened.
I think it was about 3 days, four days.

(16:25):
And yes, that that did put a relatively different spin on
things. the IT wasn't obviously that, that one event, you know,
that sort of was the, you know, a big ripple that that sort of
continued and various other wayscame through, you know, with,
with, you know, the rest of the global financial crisis
unfolding. I think the first thing, the

(16:48):
main thing that was in my mind and our mind at that point in
time was to, to keep focused on what we were doing and in
particular, keep focused on whatwe were doing for our clients.
You know, whenever we spoke to our first clients, second
clients, and, and sort of subsequent through that, that
period of time, the larger the reason they were coming to us
was because they were worried. They had, they had problems they

(17:10):
needed solving, they had, you know, advice they needed, they
had, you know, our services theywere after.
And so while we're in this, you know, this environment that
nobody had experienced before, nobody, you know, who was
working at that point in time had experienced before, you
know, we had to keep our eye on,on what we were doing for the

(17:30):
clients. That was absolutely a key thing.
And that was a in terms of performance for them, but be in
terms of communication, explaining and giving them the
comfort or the transparency thatthat let them continue with what
they were doing at that point intime.
I think. And, and that was definitely
something that paid dividends for us and really became part of

(17:52):
our, our resource as a business.No, it's, it's already well and
good performing for an investment point of view for
your clients, but the communication, the education,
the transparency remains absolutely a core part of, of
what we do to to this day. So that was probably, you know,
the, I guess what, what was the,you know, the main thought

(18:13):
process at that point in time. Obviously number 2 was from a
personal point of view was Oh myGod, have I made a massive
mistake. You know, I think everybody was,
was thinking at that point in time because it was a such a
tumultuous period and there wereso many sort of seismic changes
happening in, in such a short period of time that that you do,

(18:33):
you know, you did step back, youknow, when you got some, some
time, which you know, anybody who's launched their own
business knows is kind of relatively scarce.
But you know, it does happen. You find that 5 minutes and you
sort of think about what you're doing.
And there were certainly sort ofthought processes which were, if
I'd stayed at City in a, in a comfortable seat with management

(18:54):
who, you know, you, you sort of trusted and knew rather than
being the manager yourself of a,of a nascent business, would
that have been a better place tobe?
But you know that that has been borne out to not have been the
case. So I think, you know, it was a
very, very challenging time, butcertainly one that I think
taught a lot of lessons and really set the foundations of a

(19:16):
very strong business. Yeah.
And as you explained that, I wasjust thinking when we spoke
prior to this, this recording, you were telling me that not
only was all of what you've described happening, that you
got married, you'd had a child, There's all these other major
life events all happening at thesame time.

(19:39):
I just wondered then, could you explain a little bit about
handling stress, not just stressduring that period of
uncertainty, But I guess now you've had a Korean grown a
company through, I'm sure, several challenges throughout
this period to achieve the success that it continues to
have. So any kind of routines, mindset

(20:00):
frameworks, because although students might not have had
commercial experience at this point, they still have
challenges and, and pressures and expectations to live up to.
So any any advice on on that side from what you've learned
about yourself through some of these life experiences?
Yes, definitely. I mean, I think one thing that

(20:21):
that I've learned along the way that that is whenever you know,
you're trying to do something, whenever you're, whenever you're
identifying an outcome that's ora task or you know, a project or
whatever it might be, very thorough planning is absolutely
key to, to doing that. It's, it's key because it lets

(20:45):
you take a more structured approach and therefore you're
significantly more efficient about how you deliver what
you're delivering. But also it's I, I've found it
very good from a, from a sort ofmental resilience as you work
through a challenging process. Because if you're putting in
place a plan, you know, it typically will have deliverables

(21:06):
staged through that gets you from from start to finish from
from A to B. And as you look at your, your
plan through time and you're taking off those deliverables,
that gives you a significant, significantly sort of positive,
you know, mid process result to,to grab onto.

(21:26):
And that's, and I apply that from everything from to work
through to sort of personal life, you know, being able to
see how far you are down that journey is a very comforting
thing. You know, the, the watching your
progress and evaluating that through time.
What I would say is, you know, when in particular with, with
careers, as you've already alluded to, you know, you might

(21:47):
think you want to plan everything from from A-Z, from
gradual to, to sort of retirement, but it won't work
out that way. And so, you know, having the
flexibility, having the ability to sort of step back, re
evaluate, assess what you've done and where that's taken you
and where you want to actually go.
Is it to, is it to be, or is it actually to CD or, or E?

(22:10):
You know, things will change. And that flexibility and the and
a bit of distance at time is times is very useful.
I think from a personal point ofview and specifically talking
about stress, you know, and having been through some pretty
horrible periods of, of, of dealing with that, I know what,
what works for me. I know that when I get very,

(22:33):
very busy and I'm in that kind of environment, it's very hard
to see the wood from the from the trees.
And when that happens, it's veryhard also to take a look at
yourself and figure out how you're dealing with it.
You know, you feel anxious, stressed, uncertain, you know,
all of those sort of negative connotations and you, you kind

(22:56):
of are quite inwardly looking, but you don't step back and
actually look at, you know, how you are treating yourself.
And so that I know when I, when I start, you know, getting into
that kind of environment now it is OK, I need some distance.
I need some distance from my headspace.
And that's for me, that starts with sleep.
OK. So it's making sure that I'm
sleeping properly, giving myselfenough time to sleep, giving

(23:17):
myself enough time to prepare for doing that.
And I also know I don't sleep well unless I exercise, I don't
sleep well if I've been drinkingand I don't sleep well unless
I've been eating properly. So, you know, those might sound
quite obvious and simple, but there's no, there's nothing
better than having an obvious and simple plan, to be quite
honest. But it comes with that sort of

(23:39):
self-awareness to sort of say, OK, I'm, I'm probably getting to
the point now where I'm not operating at an ideal level.
OK, you know what you need to donow, just just stop, postpone
things till till tomorrow or theday after, whatever needs to be.
Step back, treat yourself properly.
And with that comes the the balance that lets you look at
things with a more considered mindset rather than the internal

(24:03):
voices sort of shouting at you to to do this, do that, do that.
Oh, you're late and all those negative things I was talking
about beforehand. Yeah, I, I couldn't agree more
with the, as I've got older, I think those three things, sleep,
exercise, food and drink, the impacts that those three things
have on me as I've aged has certainly got progressively much

(24:23):
more meaningful, I would say. And yeah, I think that was
really, really interesting. Like the so rather than saying I
want to be here because I I knowmy job dealing and interacting
with a lot of students, it's like I really want to work in
this role at this institution. But then thinking about, OK, the
steps to success and the markersto self reflect and see

(24:44):
progress. I think that's a super important
thing and a really strong message.
But having that ability to have these little stop gaps, self
reflect, am I meeting these goals?
If not, why? And yeah.
So that's really, really cool advice.
All right, well, look, you know.I think it's interesting that
that students want to plan so far in ahead in their career and

(25:08):
I understand why because it's quite exciting, but businesses
don't plan more than realistically, sort of probably
3, maybe sort of five years ahead.
And I think when you sort of sithere and you and you run
businesses, you then figure out,you know, why you're trying to
run your life on a longer time frame, then you can actually run
a business. It's just a relatively sort of
simple analogy. So you know it is that be

(25:31):
reactive, you know, have a plan because you'll deliver better,
but then be reactive to what, towhat the situation evolves into.
Moving into that management seatthen and having the ability to
build to your design of what youwould want a culture of your own
firm to be like. So creating those rules,

(25:52):
creating the atmosphere. So all that learning that you'd
described and you'd had in your former life at City as well.
What were the things, what's integral now to 24?
That really kind of is your DNA,if you like, that's on in that
environment. Well, that's a really good
question and and it's one that we, we do think about quite a

(26:12):
lot here. And I think when you when we
started the business, it was perhaps the the best, most
rewarding, most fun, enjoyable, challenging period.
I mean, yes, obviously the global financial crisis made
things difficult because of the market environment.
We're working with it. But notwithstanding that, you

(26:35):
know, being able to, to start something from scratch and
really imprint yourself, you know, who we as a team were and
how we wanted to run things and why we wanted to do them.
You know, was, was, you know, without doubt the the best, the
best part of my career at all. And I'd say actually it
correspondingly, probably now itis the, the biggest, one of the

(26:57):
biggest challenges we we face asa business.
And I mean this from a positive point of view because we want to
retain that. And as I think you know, quite
understandably, when, when you grow and are successful and
spread and hire more people and do more things and have more
clients spread around the world and have a, you know, a team in,

(27:17):
in the States and have a couple of colleagues in, in other
geographies. Retaining that identity and and
sense of of who we want to be and why we want to be that way
round is is fundamentally very, very important.
So, so it is we do spend, we do try and spend a fair amount of

(27:38):
time considering that and tryingto execute it.
But I would say it is a challenge undoubtedly.
I think, you know, the things that we sort of characterize as,
as you know, who are we and whatwe ought to do.
We, we, a lot of that comes out of our prior experience, I would

(28:01):
say. So we want to, to try.
We'd all worked very big businesses before Citigroup,
Barclays, Wachovia and a number of other places.
And I think what we recognized is that those places had been at
times very good places to be fora number of reasons.
Let's take those, but let's alsotry and remove the things that
that weren't what we wanted to, to be and, and so, you know,

(28:25):
create our, our own mark on them.
So we didn't want material hierarchies.
We didn't want a lot of processes and, and box ticking.
We wanted to remain nimble and, and entrepreneurial.
We didn't want people to be distracted, as I said before, by
things we didn't deem to be relevant, like, you know,

(28:46):
titular progress rather than responsibility progress.
We we didn't want to have a blame culture.
Like we know we make mistakes. We all make mistakes.
I make mistakes, you know, the the youngest grad that we have
made some mistakes and that's absolutely fine.
You know, you want to to look atthat, make people comfortable

(29:07):
that if they have done somethingwhich wasn't, it didn't provide
the right outcome, but A they can own it.
B, we can discuss it. C we can figure out what the the
right correction is and, and we are what order of Corrections we
put in place. And D we, we learn from that and
try not to make that mistake again.
You know, that's that's the right way of dealing with with

(29:27):
problems. And so it's just the opportunity
really to to sort of imprint those kind of those kind of
characteristics on the business.I think we, when I talk about
the comparison with with big businesses, I'd characterize it
as being, you know, we wanted tomake it somewhere that worked

(29:49):
for us and for us. I don't mean, you know, the, the
founding partners of 24, I mean at the start that was pretty
much all there was. There were seven partners and
three staff members. But I mean us like everybody
here at 24. And so, you know, we really want
to recognize that, that, you know, the most important people
at 24 are our clients. But after that it's our, it's

(30:11):
our people, partners, staff, whoever they might be.
And so that that might be a hardthing to always communicate.
People might not always believe,you know, that, that we are
acting in the best interests of it, of everybody in the room.
But, but that is certainly something that I think we we
took away from, from our previous experiences.

(30:31):
I think when it is sort of opaque, for example, this, this
is a good example that when you work at a, you know, a
Citigroup, the corporate body isrelatively opaque.
You might know what your department is doing very well,
but but the rest of it's relatively tough to to figure
out. So we have very regular town
halls at 24. We will talk through everything

(30:54):
about the business and anybody who's got something relevant can
can bring it to us. But for example, you know, we
run through our financials in a fair amount of detail telling
people what the wins have been, what the impact on the business
has been, you know, why there isa lag between assets coming in
and us, you know, making profitsand things like that.
And so, you know, I think it's just that those, those sorts of,

(31:16):
of features that we really try to imprint on the business.
But as I said at the start, it'squite easy to do that when
there's only 10 of you in one room because you're all talking
about everything anyway. Retaining that is, is key.
You know, we, we know we want todo it.
It's just the question of tryingto make sure that everybody gets

(31:39):
all the information that that, you know, we'll keep them
informed and and keep that progressing.
Can I ask if you, if you had people join then given that the
business now is, is it 14 years old or it's been over well over
a decade? Is that correct?
Has there been any hires that you've made earlier on that are

(32:01):
now quite senior and have gone through an organic internal
journey? Yes, yes, certainly.
I mean, we have a couple of people who joined us at grad
level or a couple of years into their career who are now
partners at 24. Certainly I think one of the,
our first sort of grad level hire who had maybe one year's

(32:23):
experience when he joined us, he's a, he's a partner at the
business. And you know, the, I mean,
that's been very rewarding for us.
It makes us feel good that that,you know, we can attract people
who are good enough, they make partnership and take them all
the way through that that process to to being part of that
of that group who are guiding the business at 24, taking that

(32:47):
responsibility for it. Obviously, again, as the
business gets bigger, more complex, more people, you, you
have to put more thought into how you do that and instructors
around it. But I think again, this is kind
of key to try and communicate and certainly to, to your
audience that I've, I've seen how that works at a big business

(33:10):
like Citi. And it's very sort of by the
numbers and box ticking has already said, while we might
have to put more thought and more process into it, we do try
and keep it as bespoke as possible.
It's much more about the people and, and creating something that
works for them than it is around, you know, just trying

(33:30):
to, to do it because we need to do it as a business, if, if that
makes sense. And and we continue to evolve
those, those those processes, those solutions through time.
We we added a our first dedicated full time HR resource
when I stepped in the CEO role made she's revolutionized what

(33:51):
we're doing there. You've met her.
But we continue to push and we continue to make sure that we're
doing things in the right way for the people and in the right
way for 24 to retain. So who it is?
That's great. Thank you.
And, and just want to move on now to talk a little bit more
about something we mentioned at the top of the conversation,

(34:12):
which was asked about securitiesand some of the different
business lines you were talking about.
And just conscious of two things.
One, that might not be completely crystal to everyone.
But secondly, when you and I were talking before, you know, I
was kind of interested of, OK, you start a new business, like
what is your unique proposition?And you've kind of mentioned it

(34:34):
lightly, which was about your ability to communicate with your
clients. And I remember when we were
speaking, you were talking to meabout during the subprime
crisis, for example, big, big cornerstone of that crisis was
that no one really understood a lot of the complex vehicles that
were being used at the time. And you're explaining how

(34:56):
actually simplifying it and being able to communicate it and
change the, the storytelling aspect depending on who the
audience is, was the unique thing.
And I just, I just wondered whether you could elaborate on
that a little bit as to make it clear to maybe people early in
their careers about this being quite a key strength,

(35:18):
particularly when the perceptionmight be that we're moving to a
wholly quantitative world. But actually, some of the things
that you're articulating to me were much more on the
storytelling side. Yes, I mean it, it, it's, it has
proved to be sort of invaluable.And the I mean it's not just
about about asset backed securities, but I will focus on

(35:40):
that. But one of the things that we
have continually received significant sort of positive
feedback and praise from our clients has been how we
communicate and how we we we explain things.
So you know, ABS yes, it was where where we started.
And, you know, I think there wasbear in mind, there was an

(36:00):
environment then of, of significant fear because of what
people were, were obviously seeing in the US A/B S market.
And, and that was creating a lotof stress in, in, in portfolios
and, and performance and, and the like.
But also with particularly with,with European ABS as well as

(36:20):
with Europe, Europe, Europe as well as with US A/B S, there was
this sort of complexity that, that people attributed to the
asset class. They didn't, they didn't get it.
And, and I think that's a, a really interesting viewpoint
that a lot of them had this, this, there was this sort of
misapprehension that they understood some things and
didn't understood of understand other things.

(36:41):
And there was, and an ABS was, was complex and it was in this
world of, of acronyms and sort of speciality specialisms and so
on. So how do we deal with that?
I mean, I think one of the firstthings we did was, was emphasize
the commonality between ABS and other parts of the bond market
that people did think they understood.
So what do I mean by that? I mean, you know, liquidity, how

(37:04):
they trade, how they, how they're priced, you know, how
they, how you structure a portfolio out of these types of
securities. You're kind of saying that this
is just part of the bond market.It's just not a part that you've
had a lot of experience with. So you really try and strip back
and identify reasons for them tofeel more comfortable by by

(37:26):
linking it to something else that they that they are
comfortable with. Then I think that you deal with,
with just some of the words thatare being used.
It's not a, it's not a complexity premium.
You get paid for buying ABS it'sa specialism.
That's all. It's not, it's no more complex.
Like, believe me, looking at a portfolio of prime residential

(37:46):
mortgages in a special purpose vehicle is a lot easier than it
is looking at the whole of a bank's balance sheet.
And why is that the case? Well, because it's one set of
loans that doesn't change, right?
You know, they're not rolling over.
They're not turning from a residential mortgage pool into a

(38:06):
credit card pool into an auto loan pool.
It's just residential mortgage loans.
And there's no management team that's going to do something
stupid, right? There's they're not going to go
and buy another business and, and sort of lever up the balance
sheet and all the rest of it. So you really start taking
things back into words and language that people can
appreciate. And then, and this is one of the

(38:29):
reasons why I think, you know, the way we did it with ABS was
was so successful is then you say, OK, if you understand all
of that, think about residentialmortgages, you know, have you
got a mortgage? Yeah, OK.
Well, you know, your mortgage might be in one of these pools.
Are you going to default on yourmortgage?
No. OK.
Well, how many people do you know have ever defaulted on

(38:51):
their mortgage when no one. OK.
So why do you think we're suddenly going to get so many
defaults in this prime High Street bank residential mortgage
pool? And again, what you're trying to
do is trying to, trying to get people to appreciate that
actually understand the risks that are fundamentally driving

(39:12):
these investments. And then you, you often sort of
see, see this sort of light bulbmoment when they kind of go, OK,
you know, yes, I get this. Actually, I've got a lot more
experience in this kind of thingthan than I realised, a lot more
knowledge that's pertinent to make an investment here than
than I realised. And you, you then you're
essentially boiling it down to the one or two things they don't
understand, like how does the SPV work?

(39:34):
What are the, the beneficial things about it?
You know, what is the reserve fund?
And a lot of that, not the way we treated that was to, to
change the words that our industry used and put it in in
layman's terms. So, you know, a reserve fund,
well, it's, it's loss absorbing capital, OK, excess spread.
Well, that's just the bank's profit is their Net margin in

(39:56):
the transaction. So it's really a case of, of
demystifying, changing words, getting people to realise they
probably know more about it thanthan they thought they knew.
And we ran. Sort of content pieces.
For example, I remember 1, whichwas 5 ABS deals you didn't know,
you knew. And a lot of that was about

(40:18):
saying, well, look, you know, anABS transaction issued by
Volkswagen Financing, their autoloan book won't be called
Volkswagen Auto Loan Financing. It'll have a, you know, a, it
was called VCL and people don't appreciate that, that that is
Volkswagen. And you know, yes, I know them.
They make good cars. They probably bought by, you

(40:40):
know, middle class people who pay their auto loans.
So it was just making people appreciate they actually had a,
they had a better understanding.They thought they did.
We changed some words to make itmore accessible.
You boil it back. I think one of the big hurdles,
the big sort of mindset changes we had to get over was how much
detail you give. Because if you try and educate
people to the level of understanding that we have,

(41:03):
they're not going to understand that because it's not their job
to do that. And so I think the first,
certainly some of the earlier conversations we had with
people, I was really trying to get them to the left to a quite
advanced level of appreciation for what was going on.
And all it did was confuse them.And that's when we sort of
figured out, OK, there has to bea, a, a middle ground between

(41:25):
informing them in a way that they can find accessible and
importantly portable. They have to be able to take it
back to to their colleagues and be able to explain it to them.
That middle ground versus not giving them enough information
and making it too salesy. Yeah, that word portable, that's
yeah, that's, that's really interesting actually, yeah,
because often it's a case of they then need to take you back

(41:46):
to get to their board to get sign off whatever transactions.
So yeah, that makes complete sense.
And maybe as a segue then we could talk a little bit, we
could step out of the the ABS market into a little bit more
the asset management industry atlarge.
Because actually whenever we survey our student community of

(42:06):
100,000 plus students, asset management actually comes out
top more often than not. Because I think a lot of people
think investor banking, they might think trading or sales
trading at a bank, but actually asset management seems to these
where there's a lot of attraction for potential talent.

(42:26):
And I just wanted to get a senseof the landscape of asset
management, both where 24 sits. Could you describe that?
Is it by asset class, geography.Whatever the split as you as
someone in the industry would describe it to someone thinking
about it? Well, well, I, I think your
asset management in general, if I, if I go sort of top down, you

(42:49):
know, the business is the, the industry is based around
providing investment services toa really wide range of clients
that anything from from retail through to, to sort of stock and
wealth funds and sort of governmental institutions
encompassing intermediary wealthin all of those institutional
pension funds, insurance companies along the way.

(43:09):
And those products are by and large and offered as pooled
funds where you have a holiday clients in, in a single entity.
But as I said before, we all youknow, you also will do sort of
derivatives of that where it's asingle client in a, in a managed
account. So there were a couple of
different, there were, there were loads of different wrappers
that that, that the assets sit within.

(43:32):
The, the way of breaking down the industry initially is
probably to look at passive versus active.
So a, an investment in a passivefund you're making versus an
underlying index. So you know, you might invest in
a fund for example, that is against the the FTSE 100 and it
is aiming to not do anything other than give you the same

(43:54):
return as the FTSE 100 and it will be focused on for example,
tracking error. So how close is it to to that
index? So that's a passive fund.
It's not trying to do anything clever other than deliver what
what it says it's going to deliver.
Whereas active management, the fund manager is actually looking
to create a strategy where they add value in some way.

(44:16):
Now that might be versus an index.
Corporate bond funds been measured against the corporate
bond fund index, for example. And and you know, the manager
earns more because they should be outperforming that index on a
on a regular basis. So they're active versus versus
passive and then underneath active.
Well, actually underneath both of those you have probably asset

(44:38):
classes are the easiest thing togo to next.
So equities, fixed income, commodities, you know,
derivatives strategies, property, you know, other other
types of of assets and they'll have sort of sub asset classes.
So you know, fixed income, obviously government bonds,
investment grade, high yield, securitized and and so on.

(45:03):
Some of those might be sectoral.So you might have, for example,
a emerging market corporate bondfund.
So that is sort of geographical to a certain extent, but EM is
probably more of a sector reallythan a geography.
But it's sector because it's EM,it's sector because it is
corporate bonds. Or you might have things that

(45:27):
are thematic, so sustainable type funds or you might have
funds that are trying to be a solution, trying to deliver an
outcome. And as I said before, one of our
our main investment grade fund is trying to deliver a set
return over cash, but for a a volatility target.

(45:47):
So you're trying to keep in thatcase, it's trying to keep
volatility under 3%. So that's an outcome that it's
trying to deliver a solution, but that it's trying to to
deliver. So I think that kind of gives a
bit of an overview of, you know,how the the industry is, is kind
of organized. You've obviously got a load of
specialisms in there as well. You know, hedge funds, private
equity, private debt, all of allof those sorts of things.

(46:10):
There's a very wide range of risks.
Obviously you can go all the wayfrom money market funds, instant
access, just trying to beat cashby a little bit all the way
through to locking your money upfor eight years and hoping you
get a really attractive return at the back end of it.
So it's a very, very broad our space is, is only fixed income

(46:31):
and really majoring in developedmarkets.
So what do I mean by that? I mean, you know EMEA, the US,
you know other other sort of core geographies and and around
those three business lines I highlighted earlier.
That's all that's all placed in the market.

(46:53):
Is there any kind of characteristic alignment where
fixed income would come in as opposed to other asset classes?
I asked this because not all thestudents perhaps listening will
have any experience of any of these asset classes perhaps at
this point. But what they do know is what I
am I like and what skills do I possess.
Would you say that fixed income has any type of profile that

(47:17):
would be unique to that, that would be maybe different to
equities or currencies or so forth?
So when I, I'm going to simplifysort of massively here, but I
have always said that the fixed income appeals to me because I'm
quite a sort of caution Mystic, cautious, pessimistic person.
And what I'm, what I'm sort of joking about there is that if

(47:40):
you're an equity fund manager, you're looking for the upside,
right? You're buying an equity in a, in
a firm, you're buying a share ina firm in a business that is
perpetual. You have to see growth in the
business for your investments togrow and pay you increased
dividends, but really the, the upside is that the share price
goes up and, and your investments worth worth more.

(48:03):
So you've got to be positive, You've got to believe in, in
that growth. And, and you know, the, the very
simplified flip side of that is in fixed income, you don't get
that, that growth upside. The best outcome you can get as
a bond fund manager or bond investor is you get your, your
coupons along the way. So your interest payments,
however, too frequently they maybe, and then at maturity of the

(48:25):
bond, you get your money back. That's as good as it gets.
So, you know, that's why I say being cautious, cynical,
pessimistic, because you're always trying to look for the
downside risk. What could go wrong?
I know what the upside is. I want to minimize the, the
downside. So that is way too simplified
really to be of, of much use foryour, your colleagues.
I don't want a bunch of, you know, you know, unhappy,

(48:49):
miserable, you know, sort of pessimistic people applying
because the the fixed income isn't that way around.
There is so much opportunity forfor growth and positive returns.
But, but it is about trying to identify, and this is actually,
I think the better, the better words for, for what is with the

(49:11):
kind of the key part of fixed income is about analysing and
identifying the, the, the risks,the, the, the cons and the pros
in the, in the investments. And so, you know, it isn't all
about just trying to, to make sure bad things don't happen.
It's also about trying to identify the positives of, of

(49:31):
portfolios you can put together that provide a really good
outcomes for, for clients. But it does come down to I'd say
to sort of key analytical skillsif you're if you're in APM role,
if you're in a portfolio management role and you know
what those skills really look like.
If you're looking at high yield,for example, you've got to

(49:53):
understand how a relatively fastgrowing corporate works.
You know what their USPS are, what their balance sheet looks
like, what their access to funding looks like and what
their chances for upgrade look like.
And if that's part of their business plan, that's growth.
OK. I'd say the analytical skills
for an ABS transaction are probably slightly different

(50:14):
there. It's more quantitative, more
structural, more in that kind oftraditional analytical type role
that that you know that those skills will perhaps come to the
fore a little a little bit more.But I would say that when when
your listeners are thinking about jobs in in fund management

(50:35):
and in fixed income fund management, you know there there
is a very wide range of roles within these businesses.
You know, we have everything here under one roof.
You know, obviously we have investment people, but we have
you know risk, we have technology, we have marketing,
sales, compliance, operations, finance, all of those other

(50:57):
roles as well. And I wouldn't say that those
sort of comments around skills that are needed there are are at
all the same. And so it really depends on on
the role rather than the specific sector when the
industry that the people are in.Right.
Well, we're coming towards the the end of the conversation.
So I thought what we could do issome kind of more practical

(51:19):
takeaways for people's kind of self development going forward.
One of the things that we've we have kind of spoken about
particularly during that period if Lehman's and starting your
business was resilience, that confidence and resilience and
building that as a young professional.
Any any tips around that? I mean, I think the first thing

(51:42):
I, I would say is that not everybody comes with a
significant amount of confidenceor resilience or don't have it
on a, on a broad basis, you know, across what they will be
required to do when they, when they first come into their role.
The, I'd say the industry has changed significantly and is, is

(52:03):
now a much more respectful industry, I mean financial
services in general than, than it was when I started my career.
You know, I know a lot of the resilience I developed was
because of circumstances or trials I was put through through
people I, I worked with. And that made me quite a robust
person. You know, that that doesn't

(52:26):
exist anymore. But we are very focused on on
giving people all the relevant skills and experience in an
environment where they are free to take it on, where they are
free to make mistakes. They're free to ask questions of

(52:46):
everybody, not just one person, where they have a a structured
support network around them thatwill help them and give them
access to outlets where they cango and ask the stupid question,
for example. So I think it's probably more
it's more incumbent on the business now to provide that

(53:08):
environment and support for, forpeople to progress at the right
level for them. I think that is as I said
before, it's much easier in a business like 24 for example
than it isn't a big business because our our whole process of
taking people in identifying what they're good at,
identifying where they want to go and what they want to do and

(53:30):
helping them achieve that or pointing in the direction of
what they are, are good at. So I think but that that it's
much more of a partnership basisnow around how we work with
people to to do that. But invariably, and I think this
is one of the advantages of being at a business like 24 that

(53:51):
will come with experience at theright time.
Everybody becomes better at whatthey do through doing it.
More than once, the first time Istood up in front of a crowd to
present, you know, I could sharemy heartbeat, let alone feel it.
You know, it was, it was. Now I love it, I really enjoy
it, but experience made me, gaveme the confidence, gave me the
resilience to to go and do that.And so we do feel that rather

(54:15):
than focusing on, on book training and sort of structured
courses, people do better at 24 through letting them get their
hands dirty early on, probably asignificantly earlier than they
would in, in other businesses and evolving that, letting that
grow, tailoring their experience, expanding it through

(54:36):
time when when they get too much, taking off the, you know,
the earlier stuff they started doing 3 years ago, giving them
something new to, to grow into. That's what makes people you
know, better, more confident andand more resilient.
All right. Final, final question then.
So bit of a hypothetical one foryou to finish.
If you were graduating like manypeople are right now, knowing

(55:01):
what you know, what would you focus focus on?
Well, it wouldn't be advertisingfor a start.
I think I'm do you mean do you mean in terms of how would I
approach the the sort of postgraduate job job?

(55:21):
More for setting yourself up forsuccess for success, so whatever
shape or form that might be. I think that everybody comes
with, everybody comes with with a view that they, they know what
they're getting into. Everybody is, is very impressive

(55:47):
and very competent. And, and this is true at a
graduate level, but actually, you know, all the way through
our business, you know, there are a lot of people out there
who are very good at doing what they're asked to, to do what's
what would let people sort of stick out at a, at a graduate
level. I think just being well

(56:12):
researched about the business they're coming into, being well
researched about the, the industry.
So if they're coming to us, you know that we're a fixed income
boutique, know what our main strategies are, know what they
have done, you know, recently. So you read some of our views.
They're all out there publicly available on our, on our

(56:32):
website, assuming that you're, you're a professional investor,
but they are out there or they're covered in the press.
I think that that kind of research lets people know that
that you're engaged, you're sensible, you've thought forward
and you've, you've planned for the process you're, you're about
to go to. I do find it interesting.

(56:54):
There are so still people who get the easy things wrong and
you know, that is why you're going through the grad process.
But also in your first couple ofyears afterwards, you know, be
keen, turn up on time, look smart enough when you don't have
to be in a three piece suit every day.
But you know, those sorts of things, you know, are, are

(57:15):
definitely key. You know, while I said
everything I said about trying to give people confidence and
resilience and, and, you know, tailoring people's development
for them, you know, it is a two way St. and our business is not
just built around trying to makesure you have the best career,

(57:36):
the easiest career, the the sortof smoothest that we have.
Our our business is going to give you that as long as we're
successful as a business. So, you know, fitting into that,
you know, as I say, do the easy things right.
You know, is, is definitely it'sdefinitely going to be key to
people. I'd say on a on a more long term
basis then as I've said, there are a lot of smart people out

(58:02):
there. There are a lot of people I can
give tasks and projects to who want to give it to them will
deliver it far better than I ever could have done.
But what we really want to see from people, the people who are
who are who get to partner at 24, the people who are super
successful are the people who can go and figure out what they
should be doing. So I don't need to tell them,

(58:24):
what can you do that's different?
How can you make an impact on our business?
How can you create a positive experience for our clients, for,
you know, for your colleagues within our business, identifying
that, that kind of creative responsibility of identifying it
and then executing it. I mean, it'd be nice if they
told me first what they're goingto do, But but actually that is,

(58:45):
is a different skill that is a different outlook and, and
mindset. And I think that is where I
typically see something I typically see less of.
And it's something that we look for in our in our people.
We try and identify it. We try and give people the
opportunity to, to step into that.

(59:06):
But it is interesting noticing when people do deliver it or or
don't deliver it. All right.
Well, look, Ben, we've we've hitthe hour mark, so we will wrap
this up. I found that really interesting,
some great practical points as well as yeah, such an
interesting experience that you've had through this journey
with much more to come, I'm sure.
So thank you very much, Ben. So thank you very much.