December 11, 2025 • 28 mins
In this episode, Anthony speaks with Ela Saruhanoglu, an LSE Management student who secured a full-time investment banking role at J.P. Morgan for 2026 after converting her summer internship. Despite not having a traditional finance background or spring week, Ela shares how she built technical skills from scratch, leveraged curiosity, used productivity hacks, and developed a mindset that set her apart.
(00:00) Ella’s Journey to J.P. Morgan
(01:21) Why Finance?
(04:39) Learning Technicals
(06:18) Purposeful Productivity
(11:14) Balancing Uni & Applications
(13:54) No Spring Week, No Problem
(17:01) Preparing Ahead of Time
(20:25) Managing Imposter Syndrome
(24:05) Internship Tips: Visibility, Mindset, Speed
(26:35) Knowing You Why
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Hello, and welcome back to the Market Maker podcast.
And today I'm really excited to be joined by Ella, an LSE
management student who will be joining JP Morgan in their
investment banking team in a full time role in 2026 after
converting her internship this past summer.
In this conversation, we're going to dig into how she built
(00:22):
technical skills from scratched,balanced academics with
applications. I know that's always an
incredibly tricky proposition for all students and stay
confident in this ultra competitive environment that
we're in at the moment. So we're going to look at lots
of practical steps that hopefully anyone can take as
well, even before their internship begins, so they have
(00:44):
the maximum chance of of converting in the future.
But Ella, how are you? How?
Are you? Yeah, brilliant.
Look, really excited to have youon.
I know I've kind of done a few conversations now with some of
your colleagues at LSE and AIC, so both have been great.
(01:04):
So shout out to to those two. But perhaps, you know, one of
the things that struck me when Ifirst met you is that you're a
management student, not an econ student or something of that
nature. So I just wanted to start with a
bit of framing of, so how did you get interested in in
finance? And I know going to LSE,
there's, there's typically a lotof the people talking about
(01:26):
consulting or VC and startups and these sorts of things.
How did you find finance yourself?
Yeah. So I think what was really
interesting about finance to me was its interconnected nature.
So back in high school, I completed International
Bacoloria IB Diploma program andwe always had to like analyze
(01:47):
different events from a multidisciplinary perspective by
then. And I think the way everything
in financial markets is actuallya result of confidence of
different factors like geopolitics, macroeconomics,
psychology was really appealing to me.
The need to help that multidisciplinary analytical
skill set to be able to actuallyunderstand it was quite
(02:07):
interesting. So that's how I actually
initially got interested in finance.
And was there a moment when you were like, Oh yes, that's it?
Was it someone you encountered? Was it a video on YouTube that
you saw? Was it a podcast you listened
to? Was there like a light bulb
moment or was it much more kind of more gradual than that?
(02:28):
I wouldn't say it was like a light bulb moment, but it was
more of a continuous discovery. When I started to read more
about the deals, I realized how transformative they are.
They're shaping entire industries.
They're not just like valuations, They're not just
numbers on spreadsheets, basically.
So seeing that, being able to actually craft a narrative for a
(02:48):
company and being able to be part of that story was really
unique to me. That's when I realized that
like, MNA is really interesting and investment banking is
actually quite unique. And in investment banking, I
guess there's probably some preconceived ideas of what what
exactly that is. But I know you've said before
about it's a blend of qualitative and quantitative
(03:12):
sort of skills. So what do you mean by that?
How, how do those things come into an IBD kind of role?
Yeah. So it definitely requires an
individual to have both qualitative and quantitative
skills and that is what initially drew me to investment
banking as well. In terms of the quantitative
skill set, obviously you need tounderstand how to value a
(03:33):
business, what drives business value that like technical
background, but also you need tohave those strong interpersonal
skills. You need to be able to pitch an
equity story, actually understand what are the
qualitative reasonings behind that quantitative data.
You need to be able to negotiate, get that stakeholder
buying. And that qualitative aspect is
(03:53):
really crucial. And I think it's definitely the
end of both. So yeah, given.
What you just said there then, so you're a management student
and I, I did a, my undergrad in business management as well.
So I know that. I mean, I think I did 1 module
for one semester on economics. So it was pretty light touch.
(04:14):
What you've just described thereis, you know, on the technical
side, there's probably the competency of knowledge that
that's required. So how do you go about finding
out what to learn and then learning it?
Like what was that process for you?
So that's definitely tricky. I think it's really important to
find obviously then of required information that you need to
(04:37):
know. And the first way to do that is
definitely tailor your courses accordingly, possibly choosing
more of like accounting modules,more finance modules.
But the way to do that is initially look at obviously
investment banking simulations, like the actual tasks that you
might encounter and understand how can you find similarities in
(04:58):
your courses and modules and howcan you pick them strategically.
I think that's the way to approach.
But in terms of like getting that qualitative skill set as
well, I think management also helps because in investment
banking you need to also concisely deliver an
information, right? And like writing an essay, it's,
it's actually applicable becauseyou need to be able to
(05:19):
communicate what you're saying in a concisely and persuasive
manner. And it shouldn't be undermined.
It's actually perfectly needed in investment banking.
So yeah, definitely, it's actually everything in
management is also applicable. And I remember talking to you
before and you were kind of, it came across like you devour
(05:41):
financial news. You were saying, I can't
remember the example. You said you're like washing
dishes and you're like listeningto podcasts on 1.5 speed or
something. Do you feel what made the
difference for you to close thatgap or indeed like give you an
advantage over other people, do you think?
I definitely think like having astrong commercial awareness is
really important and that can bebuilt through listening to
(06:02):
podcasts. And of course, like increasing
your efficiency and listening topodcasts while staying house
chores and walking to school. I think that's really crucial
because that's like making the most out of your time as
well-being productive all the time.
And I think that provides an individual with a first more
advantage. But the key there is actually
not doing those things, not listening to those podcasts just
(06:25):
to tick the box. So that's really crucial because
some people just do these thingsbecause it's like expected.
Everyone should listen to Financial TimesDaily because in
order to be good in your interviews, you need to have a
strong market knowledge. But I think it's more about how
those podcasts actually spark a curiosity in you.
Like you should dig deep after you listen to something in
(06:46):
Financial Times, for example, it's like something is
interesting. You should read more articles
about that. So I think that sparking
curiosity aspect of podcasts is actually really, really crucial
bit that is sometimes on their mind and that is the way I
approach it, using it as like a initial trigger to find what I'm
actually interested in in the news.
(07:07):
I totally hear you what you say about don't just be like a
passive listener or don't just tick a box.
Because I remember when I was atuniversity, I was a pretty bad
in terms of academic discipline.I would say I'd be one of those
people who'd rock up quite last minute and try and do my best.
But one of the things that, yeah, just just about the idea
(07:30):
of going to the library is not going to make you good at a
subject. It was like that was what it was
in my day. And I think you get that a
little bit where people listen to podcasts and they think I've
done that. They haven't actually absorbed
or listened or gone off and researched.
And so that's. Exactly.
Looking back in retrospect, whatafter I would tell myself to do
but hopefully others can listen to.
(07:51):
So is there like a resource, I know like Investopedia, for
example, but a lot of these insight pages kind of one leads
on to another and is that how you help yourself in terms of
kind of finding your way throughall the noise of information?
The genuine I use like Investopedia as well sometimes
turns like a rabbit hole of 100 tabs like open.
(08:13):
I'm always like trying to learn more and more, but I definitely
use Investopedia. It's like an old school method
maybe, but I use that too. And I use AI tools as well
obviously to like help clarify some of the things that I listen
in podcasts. That definitely helps too.
So those are my like 2 main resources I would say.
(08:35):
And a lot of the listeners probably feel like they won't be
competitive because if they haven't studied finance, for
example. So what?
What would you say to them specifically as a group?
I think the key there is definitely identifying your
unique selling point. And what I mean by that is if
you're like studying biology, for example, and this was
(08:56):
actually an example I used in one of my interviews, and as a
biology student, you go to a lotof labs, like what you're doing
is like conducting experiments. And it actually requires a lot
of attention to detail, right? Like that meticulousness inside
the lab basically. And that is a skill built
through years. And it's a skill set that is
(09:16):
actually really applicable to investment banking when you
think about it, Because like when you're working on those
models, you need that attention to detail.
And if you can actually connect those dots and bring that to the
table and say that I have this skill set that I built through
in my biology course and I can apply this to investment banking
setting and then also reflect your genuine interest in
(09:38):
investment banking that I think is even more appealing than
being like a strong finance student or like citing things
from around investment banking questions.
So. Yeah, I love that.
You've got to kind of own your history and your story, connect
those dots and I think that's a great, great analogy.
OK, cool. Well, one of the things then is
(10:01):
you've gone through the process successfully being that
traditional process with this internship, turning to a grad
full time role. But the approach of balancing
just general school life with applications, with work life and
all these other things where you're, you know, you're
upskilling, you're getting readyfor these things.
(10:22):
How do you manage that? Particularly when you go to, in
your case, you know, one of the kind of elite universities where
you know, it's you're, there's alot of expectations on you from
an academic point of view as well as a professional point of
view. So how do you personally balance
that? So it's tricky.
It's definitely not easy. Like it's a struggle that I hear
(10:45):
from like everyone, all of my friends as well.
And I think how I approach that is definitely constantly seeking
productivity as we previously discussed as well, instead of on
and offs like listening to podcast whenever I can,
utilizing my time efficiently because it's really crucial.
Then that also gives you the time to actually detach yourself
(11:07):
from your studies, from the application process and
everything as well. And to give an example as well,
whilst I was applying to these some internships last summer
too, I just didn't say no to a holiday with my parents.
But whilst I was like on the beach, I was listening to
podcasts like obviously like youneed to detach, you need to
enjoy the sun, everything as well.
(11:27):
But constantly seeking that productivity is I think really
crucial. And I find it similar to like a
fitness mindset where you can have cheat meals instead of like
a whole cheat day because that allows you to stay on track
whilst having small or breaks which will actually motivate you
as well. So that's my mindset.
Like how would you plan out your, your normal day?
(11:51):
I mean, do you, are you quite meticulous with that as a as a
process? Like in terms of mapping your
week, what what would that look like for you for example?
Yeah, so that's a really good question.
I think because that is I'm still working on the agility
concept as well. So I love being extremely
planned actually like having everything planned and like To
(12:12):
Do List, but obviously things can go wrong or differently.
So having that like flexibility is really crucial as well.
So how I plan my day, Obviously I write my deliverables, things
that I want to do, but I don't want to be extremely rigid on
timing because when things go wrong, I just don't want to be
demotivated. But I just want to make sure
that I'm completing everything that I'm setting for that day,
(12:35):
but also giving myself the flexibility to accommodate
according to what happens in a given day.
Yeah, makes sense. All right, cool.
And then the one thing I know from your journey is that
although I said you kind of did the internship to grad, I don't
think you had a spring right in if I if I think right.
(12:56):
So I think there's a big belief and there probably is some
evidence in it, in that it's impossible to get a summer
without a break. I mean, it's definitely not
impossible, but challenging. But yeah, what's your take on
that because and what was your experience because you didn't
have that spring experience whenyou were applying for summer?
Yeah, exactly. I think that's a really
(13:16):
important point. So because when I first joined
LSCI, remember first week, it was fresher's week, we were out
with my friends and I hear the word like spring break.
And I really thought it was a spring holiday.
So that was like quite surprising and shocking to me
when I learned that like, peoplewere frustratingly applying for
spring breaks on the first week of LSC during the first week.
(13:39):
And I didn't have a spring in mylike first year because I didn't
know by then that I wanted to doinvestment banking.
And I think the key there is like, just because you discover
that you want to do investment banking later should not mean
that you cannot become a banker.Just because you're like late to
the game, like, doesn't mean that you can actually like, not
start and like become a part of the game immediately.
(14:02):
So it's more about taking actionday one, creating the
opportunities for yourself immediately and not being
demotivated because that's what I did.
Like I searched for opportunities for another
internship opportunity that I can do in summer in Turkey so
that I can build my knowledge and bring that to the table in
my interviews. So that should definitely be the
(14:23):
case because there are other opportunities, numerous like
opportunities like boot camps orlike job simulations that people
can find from online. And that really actually equips
you with those technical skill sets that are obviously a spring
week is also like 4 days. You're not missing a lot.
And I, I'm not just saying that obviously spring week is not
(14:43):
useless. It's so important if you want to
facilitate your workload. But that doesn't mean that you
cannot apply for a summer or youcannot become a bank.
So yeah. Yeah, and I'd hugely encourage
anyone who's you know in a situation where they hadn't
obtained a spring. I think as you go, who your your
colleague at LSE and the previous episode we did if you
(15:04):
just go back in our in our library, but I think he got was
it a VC, a hedge fund and another he had three, but all
came through targeting very small shops who needed their
biggest kind of bottleneck is istime.
So they needed someone to just helping hands to do a bit of a
(15:24):
Jack of all trades. But he got some phenomenal work
experience, which then enabled him to get, you know, close to
gap really quickly. So it can be done for sure.
So, OK, cool. Something else was that I think
a lot of people do is they spenda disproportionate probably
amount of time in the application process and then
(15:47):
they secure the role. And then I'm assuming, I mean,
it's been a long time for me at that stage, but there's a degree
of relief and you're like, oh wow, it's done sort of thing.
So I just wondered then this preinternship phase and just beyond
that, just what people can be doing probably all of the time,
but what can students be doing more practically speaking to
(16:11):
make sure that they are ready when when the call comes,
hopefully? Yeah.
So I can reflect on what I did obviously.
And a couple of key things that I can highlight there is
definitely building your technical skill set, like
familiarizing yourself with Excel, PowerPoint, those tools,
because those are really needed to increase efficiency once you
(16:34):
hit the ground. And like, familiarizing
yourself, especially if you are a Mac user is really important
because the shortcuts are different, like with Windows and
Mac. If you can find a way to
actually like work on Windows computers before and if you're a
Mac user, that would be such a good like advance.
Such a good tip. I never thought of that.
You know what I was in the office last week and one of my
(16:56):
colleagues went off to get a coffee away from her desk and I
needed like like a snippet tool like because I didn't I was
working hot desking to of this image and she had an Apple Mac
and I didn't even know how to like snip an image and then send
it. I was just like, what am I
doing? So if you reverse that and then
you land in a bank because no one's using Apple Macs, right?
(17:18):
Exactly. It's like a different language.
It can be like a different language if you haven't used it.
So it's really important to it'sreally important to do that.
And the second thing would be trying to learn how to think
like a banker before actually becoming one.
And like the way to do that would be obviously listening to
various deals news and reading news.
(17:39):
That's really important. But instead of just focusing
near on the numbers on those DealNews looking at, OK, So what
is that? But the qualitative reasoning
behind that data, how is this actually going to affect this
business, this industry? Thinking about those
intricacies, trying to force yourself to think a bit more
out-of-the-box, I would say thatis, I think really helpful.
(18:01):
And in terms of reading the deals as well, familiarizing
yourself with the jargon, the abbreviations, those are really
important too. And those can be really helpful
when you actually start the job,I would say.
And the third thing, which is sometimes underestimated, I
think is definitely building connections beforehand.
It can be with your like teammates trying to like like
(18:22):
arrange a face to face coffee chat beforehand and build that
sense of rapport with them. And also like people who post
the internship on LinkedIn, liketrying to reach out to your
cohort and like get to know thembeforehand.
Those are really important things because the first initial
days like that can be really stressful and knowing people
around that's just like that will definitely reduce the
(18:44):
stress levels and that will allow you to actually become a
part of that community easily aswell once you join.
So yeah. Talking of stress levels, maybe
I could ask you a question about, I mentioned earlier, you
go to, you know, quite a competitive university from an
environment perspective. You're surrounded by a pretty
(19:05):
strong candidate. You know, you interact with them
on campus, at the assessment center in the internship.
How do you avoid comparing to others and then that then
leading to imposter syndrome or too much pressure that you can't
feel like you can remain composed and and perform at your
best. So yeah, avoiding comparison and
(19:27):
kind of the confidence, I guess what, what's your take on that?
Yeah, that's again like really tricky at LSE of course, but
like comparison is the tip of joy, right.
So that should be the initial approach, but so like tying back
to it like what I have said earlier as well identifying your
unique selling point, I think that's really crucial because
(19:49):
once you realize how you can differentiate yourself from
other candidates, I think by that you could be a lot stronger
and confident in your abilities as well like you should be.
Confident in like what you know,you already know really well and
you can learn if you don't know something.
That should be the mindset, I think.
And I think like a lot of successful individuals do have
(20:11):
imposter syndrome, but it's moreabout how you utilize it to your
benefit, how you identify your areas of improvement.
Because let's see, let's say if I realize that, oh, I don't know
this, but majority of my friendswere applying.
They know like a certain facts, like a search and technical
skill set. I would say I wouldn't think of
it as like, OK, I'm behind or something like that, but I would
(20:32):
be like, OK, day one, take action.
I will learn this as well. I will improve myself as well.
So I think that should be the way to approach definitely like
avoiding comparison. And if you have areas of
improvements, that's OK. That should be the thing because
investment banking, it's like a continuous improvement journey.
It's a steep learning curve. So there's always something new
(20:53):
to learn. So yeah.
And how about on the confidence side specifically?
Is there anything on that? I think with the confidence side
definitely believing that you'reputting your 100% into this
process and you're going to be successful at the end of this
process. But I think like the key there
(21:15):
is sometimes people define success merely based on concrete
outcomes. And I think that affects
confidence. One could be like, oh, I didn't
have a spring week, Oh, I'm lacking behind a concrete
outcome scale, or like I had three 515 rejections and I
didn't do well in my first interview.
If you define success merely just looking at those outcomes,
(21:37):
then I think it's really difficult to be confident.
But if you define success more of like the continuous
accumulation of knowledge and the experience, but then I think
it's easier to be confident that, OK, I'm putting a lot in
this process and I'm actually learning a lot and I'm going to
be successful. So that should be the mindset, I
think. Yeah.
(21:58):
I almost think like one thing that you can have control of or
influence of on its outcome is the amount of effort and
consistent approach that you're going to have.
Because actually, I think for a lot of people, that's where it
can come undone a little bit, but it's if you can just keep
that mindset of progression takes time, but you've got to
(22:22):
stay at it and be consistent. It's that that's unlocks then
the the kind of confidence I think in the end.
OK, cool. And the final kind of practical
tips. I know from when we spoke
before, there was kind of three,I guess kind of good levers you
(22:42):
could pull for someone who, you know, with an internship at JP
Morgan or any other top bank next summer.
What could they be doing? Because I was just looking at
LinkedIn this morning, everyone's kind of finding out,
have they got an offer or not? It's kind of that part of the
year. What would your advice be to
them going into that experience in summer 26?
(23:04):
Yeah. So the first thing would be
balancing perfectionism with practicality.
I think that's really crucial because in investment banking we
have to deliver a perfect output.
Like that is what is expected. But also having efficiency is
really important as well becauseyou're given a deadline, you
need to actually deliver something in a time pressured
(23:26):
environment. So having a practical approach
is really crucial. I think like instead of your
like perfectionism preventing you to start the task, I think
you should approach it with likean open up minded mindset and
like give it a go and then double, triple check it.
So that is really crucial because time pressure is I think
one of the key things that appears as a struggle.
(23:50):
And second thing would definitely be like visibility.
I cannot highlight the importance of visibility.
And what I mean by that is actually leveraging like
building genuine connections, having that initiative to
actually knock on the doors of senior people to actually
arrange coffee chats. That's really crucial.
Getting that like stakeholder byunderstanding what different
(24:12):
people value the most and building genuine connections
based on that is I think really crucial.
Because what sometimes matters at the end is if a senior person
can say, oh, I remember this interns face.
So that's really important actually.
And the third thing would be there is having a positive
(24:33):
mindset and a growth mindset. That's really crucial because
this is an industry where you'regoing to make mistakes.
And it's like really important to realize that there will be
negative feedback as well. And you should see them as
actually learning opportunities,reflect on those and grow.
And that like negative feedback should never, ever like
demotivate you. I think that's a key point.
(24:57):
Yeah, I remember speaking to a few that kind of heads of
divisions before who were super senior and actually that last
point was really key for them. It was like, I want them to have
like this aura of just positivity if energy of like
these are the young people coming in and like that's the
type of culture and atmosphere that I want.
Like and it's again, it feels like that is something we can
(25:20):
control. Like how you know that that
mindset of positivity. So yeah, it shouldn't, should
never be underestimated. Exactly.
One last thing, then, one thing you wish someone had told you
earlier. I think knowing your end goal,
you're why that's really important in this application
(25:41):
process. And it took me a while to like
get there, but how I learned that was I was listening to one
of the motivational theorists, Dan Pink, and he has a unique
way of defining like sense of purpose.
You're why, And I think that's really important to discover
that discovering that is really crucial because once you
discovered that like all the process resilience like comes
(26:04):
easily. And you can say, OK, I'm not
actually like doing these just for the interviews, but I'm
actually doing these because I want to become a banker one day
and I will become one day. Then you see this whole process
as a accumulation of knowledge and doing something for your
future self. And that really helps you to be
motivated all the time. Yeah, so, so true.
(26:28):
So, OK, well, look, to to conclude then there's kind of a
few things that I was making notes on whenever you and I have
interacted. And the things that I get is,
you know, you don't need a finance degree to break into
banking, but it's quite clear from what you've said and how
you say it. I mean, definitely that energy I
get from you completely is you need that curiosity, that
(26:50):
consistency, that discipline to build those technical skills as
early as possible. I think you said it and I
totally agree. And this this sort of stuff
doesn't have to cost you. I know that there is programs
you can do, but you know, these podcasts, these deal flows that
get talked about, you know, it'sall there for the taking.
(27:12):
It's kind of on on your shoulders to whether you want to
consume that sort of stuff. Then preparation isn't just
about interviews. I think that was really cool
what you said, which is like kind of forming consistent
habits that make day one of yourinternship just feel like a
natural flow rather than a surprise.
(27:33):
And then you're kind of chasing to make up for lost time through
the internship, which I think issometimes a bit of a mistake.
And then your edge comes actually from your mindset in
the end, because I think a lot of people can probably level up
to accumulate the necessary skills on Excel and the basis of
financial modeling. So what is it that actually
(27:56):
makes you better than the next person?
Probably is your mindset, your attitude.
So understanding your why, avoiding peer comparisons,
showing genuine initiative, you said is a really key thing.
And I think this is so importantmessages and I can see why that
bank wanted you back full time. So Ella, thank you so much for
(28:18):
for sharing your insights and your time.
I hope you don't mind. I'm sure people on LinkedIn
after hearing this are probably going to want to connect.
So I hope it doesn't doesn't clog your box too much.
But thank you so much for your time, Ella.
Thank you.
Hello, and welcome back to the Market Maker podcast.
And today I'm really excited to be joined by Ella, an LSE
management student who will be joining JP Morgan in their
investment banking team in a full time role in 2026 after
converting her internship this past summer.
In this conversation, we're going to dig into how she built
(00:22):
technical skills from scratched,balanced academics with
applications. I know that's always an
incredibly tricky proposition for all students and stay
confident in this ultra competitive environment that
we're in at the moment. So we're going to look at lots
of practical steps that hopefully anyone can take as
well, even before their internship begins, so they have
(00:44):
the maximum chance of of converting in the future.
But Ella, how are you? How?
Are you? Yeah, brilliant.
Look, really excited to have youon.
I know I've kind of done a few conversations now with some of
your colleagues at LSE and AIC, so both have been great.
(01:04):
So shout out to to those two. But perhaps, you know, one of
the things that struck me when Ifirst met you is that you're a
management student, not an econ student or something of that
nature. So I just wanted to start with a
bit of framing of, so how did you get interested in in
finance? And I know going to LSE,
there's, there's typically a lotof the people talking about
(01:26):
consulting or VC and startups and these sorts of things.
How did you find finance yourself?
Yeah. So I think what was really
interesting about finance to me was its interconnected nature.
So back in high school, I completed International
Bacoloria IB Diploma program andwe always had to like analyze
(01:47):
different events from a multidisciplinary perspective by
then. And I think the way everything
in financial markets is actuallya result of confidence of
different factors like geopolitics, macroeconomics,
psychology was really appealing to me.
The need to help that multidisciplinary analytical
skill set to be able to actuallyunderstand it was quite
(02:07):
interesting. So that's how I actually
initially got interested in finance.
And was there a moment when you were like, Oh yes, that's it?
Was it someone you encountered? Was it a video on YouTube that
you saw? Was it a podcast you listened
to? Was there like a light bulb
moment or was it much more kind of more gradual than that?
(02:28):
I wouldn't say it was like a light bulb moment, but it was
more of a continuous discovery. When I started to read more
about the deals, I realized how transformative they are.
They're shaping entire industries.
They're not just like valuations, They're not just
numbers on spreadsheets, basically.
So seeing that, being able to actually craft a narrative for a
(02:48):
company and being able to be part of that story was really
unique to me. That's when I realized that
like, MNA is really interesting and investment banking is
actually quite unique. And in investment banking, I
guess there's probably some preconceived ideas of what what
exactly that is. But I know you've said before
about it's a blend of qualitative and quantitative
(03:12):
sort of skills. So what do you mean by that?
How, how do those things come into an IBD kind of role?
Yeah. So it definitely requires an
individual to have both qualitative and quantitative
skills and that is what initially drew me to investment
banking as well. In terms of the quantitative
skill set, obviously you need tounderstand how to value a
(03:33):
business, what drives business value that like technical
background, but also you need tohave those strong interpersonal
skills. You need to be able to pitch an
equity story, actually understand what are the
qualitative reasonings behind that quantitative data.
You need to be able to negotiate, get that stakeholder
buying. And that qualitative aspect is
(03:53):
really crucial. And I think it's definitely the
end of both. So yeah, given.
What you just said there then, so you're a management student
and I, I did a, my undergrad in business management as well.
So I know that. I mean, I think I did 1 module
for one semester on economics. So it was pretty light touch.
(04:14):
What you've just described thereis, you know, on the technical
side, there's probably the competency of knowledge that
that's required. So how do you go about finding
out what to learn and then learning it?
Like what was that process for you?
So that's definitely tricky. I think it's really important to
find obviously then of required information that you need to
(04:37):
know. And the first way to do that is
definitely tailor your courses accordingly, possibly choosing
more of like accounting modules,more finance modules.
But the way to do that is initially look at obviously
investment banking simulations, like the actual tasks that you
might encounter and understand how can you find similarities in
(04:58):
your courses and modules and howcan you pick them strategically.
I think that's the way to approach.
But in terms of like getting that qualitative skill set as
well, I think management also helps because in investment
banking you need to also concisely deliver an
information, right? And like writing an essay, it's,
it's actually applicable becauseyou need to be able to
(05:19):
communicate what you're saying in a concisely and persuasive
manner. And it shouldn't be undermined.
It's actually perfectly needed in investment banking.
So yeah, definitely, it's actually everything in
management is also applicable. And I remember talking to you
before and you were kind of, it came across like you devour
(05:41):
financial news. You were saying, I can't
remember the example. You said you're like washing
dishes and you're like listeningto podcasts on 1.5 speed or
something. Do you feel what made the
difference for you to close thatgap or indeed like give you an
advantage over other people, do you think?
I definitely think like having astrong commercial awareness is
really important and that can bebuilt through listening to
(06:02):
podcasts. And of course, like increasing
your efficiency and listening topodcasts while staying house
chores and walking to school. I think that's really crucial
because that's like making the most out of your time as
well-being productive all the time.
And I think that provides an individual with a first more
advantage. But the key there is actually
not doing those things, not listening to those podcasts just
(06:25):
to tick the box. So that's really crucial because
some people just do these thingsbecause it's like expected.
Everyone should listen to Financial TimesDaily because in
order to be good in your interviews, you need to have a
strong market knowledge. But I think it's more about how
those podcasts actually spark a curiosity in you.
Like you should dig deep after you listen to something in
(06:46):
Financial Times, for example, it's like something is
interesting. You should read more articles
about that. So I think that sparking
curiosity aspect of podcasts is actually really, really crucial
bit that is sometimes on their mind and that is the way I
approach it, using it as like a initial trigger to find what I'm
actually interested in in the news.
(07:07):
I totally hear you what you say about don't just be like a
passive listener or don't just tick a box.
Because I remember when I was atuniversity, I was a pretty bad
in terms of academic discipline.I would say I'd be one of those
people who'd rock up quite last minute and try and do my best.
But one of the things that, yeah, just just about the idea
(07:30):
of going to the library is not going to make you good at a
subject. It was like that was what it was
in my day. And I think you get that a
little bit where people listen to podcasts and they think I've
done that. They haven't actually absorbed
or listened or gone off and researched.
And so that's. Exactly.
Looking back in retrospect, whatafter I would tell myself to do
but hopefully others can listen to.
(07:51):
So is there like a resource, I know like Investopedia, for
example, but a lot of these insight pages kind of one leads
on to another and is that how you help yourself in terms of
kind of finding your way throughall the noise of information?
The genuine I use like Investopedia as well sometimes
turns like a rabbit hole of 100 tabs like open.
(08:13):
I'm always like trying to learn more and more, but I definitely
use Investopedia. It's like an old school method
maybe, but I use that too. And I use AI tools as well
obviously to like help clarify some of the things that I listen
in podcasts. That definitely helps too.
So those are my like 2 main resources I would say.
(08:35):
And a lot of the listeners probably feel like they won't be
competitive because if they haven't studied finance, for
example. So what?
What would you say to them specifically as a group?
I think the key there is definitely identifying your
unique selling point. And what I mean by that is if
you're like studying biology, for example, and this was
(08:56):
actually an example I used in one of my interviews, and as a
biology student, you go to a lotof labs, like what you're doing
is like conducting experiments. And it actually requires a lot
of attention to detail, right? Like that meticulousness inside
the lab basically. And that is a skill built
through years. And it's a skill set that is
(09:16):
actually really applicable to investment banking when you
think about it, Because like when you're working on those
models, you need that attention to detail.
And if you can actually connect those dots and bring that to the
table and say that I have this skill set that I built through
in my biology course and I can apply this to investment banking
setting and then also reflect your genuine interest in
(09:38):
investment banking that I think is even more appealing than
being like a strong finance student or like citing things
from around investment banking questions.
So. Yeah, I love that.
You've got to kind of own your history and your story, connect
those dots and I think that's a great, great analogy.
OK, cool. Well, one of the things then is
(10:01):
you've gone through the process successfully being that
traditional process with this internship, turning to a grad
full time role. But the approach of balancing
just general school life with applications, with work life and
all these other things where you're, you know, you're
upskilling, you're getting readyfor these things.
(10:22):
How do you manage that? Particularly when you go to, in
your case, you know, one of the kind of elite universities where
you know, it's you're, there's alot of expectations on you from
an academic point of view as well as a professional point of
view. So how do you personally balance
that? So it's tricky.
It's definitely not easy. Like it's a struggle that I hear
(10:45):
from like everyone, all of my friends as well.
And I think how I approach that is definitely constantly seeking
productivity as we previously discussed as well, instead of on
and offs like listening to podcast whenever I can,
utilizing my time efficiently because it's really crucial.
Then that also gives you the time to actually detach yourself
(11:07):
from your studies, from the application process and
everything as well. And to give an example as well,
whilst I was applying to these some internships last summer
too, I just didn't say no to a holiday with my parents.
But whilst I was like on the beach, I was listening to
podcasts like obviously like youneed to detach, you need to
enjoy the sun, everything as well.
(11:27):
But constantly seeking that productivity is I think really
crucial. And I find it similar to like a
fitness mindset where you can have cheat meals instead of like
a whole cheat day because that allows you to stay on track
whilst having small or breaks which will actually motivate you
as well. So that's my mindset.
Like how would you plan out your, your normal day?
(11:51):
I mean, do you, are you quite meticulous with that as a as a
process? Like in terms of mapping your
week, what what would that look like for you for example?
Yeah, so that's a really good question.
I think because that is I'm still working on the agility
concept as well. So I love being extremely
planned actually like having everything planned and like To
(12:12):
Do List, but obviously things can go wrong or differently.
So having that like flexibility is really crucial as well.
So how I plan my day, Obviously I write my deliverables, things
that I want to do, but I don't want to be extremely rigid on
timing because when things go wrong, I just don't want to be
demotivated. But I just want to make sure
that I'm completing everything that I'm setting for that day,
(12:35):
but also giving myself the flexibility to accommodate
according to what happens in a given day.
Yeah, makes sense. All right, cool.
And then the one thing I know from your journey is that
although I said you kind of did the internship to grad, I don't
think you had a spring right in if I if I think right.
(12:56):
So I think there's a big belief and there probably is some
evidence in it, in that it's impossible to get a summer
without a break. I mean, it's definitely not
impossible, but challenging. But yeah, what's your take on
that because and what was your experience because you didn't
have that spring experience whenyou were applying for summer?
Yeah, exactly. I think that's a really
(13:16):
important point. So because when I first joined
LSCI, remember first week, it was fresher's week, we were out
with my friends and I hear the word like spring break.
And I really thought it was a spring holiday.
So that was like quite surprising and shocking to me
when I learned that like, peoplewere frustratingly applying for
spring breaks on the first week of LSC during the first week.
(13:39):
And I didn't have a spring in mylike first year because I didn't
know by then that I wanted to doinvestment banking.
And I think the key there is like, just because you discover
that you want to do investment banking later should not mean
that you cannot become a banker.Just because you're like late to
the game, like, doesn't mean that you can actually like, not
start and like become a part of the game immediately.
(14:02):
So it's more about taking actionday one, creating the
opportunities for yourself immediately and not being
demotivated because that's what I did.
Like I searched for opportunities for another
internship opportunity that I can do in summer in Turkey so
that I can build my knowledge and bring that to the table in
my interviews. So that should definitely be the
(14:23):
case because there are other opportunities, numerous like
opportunities like boot camps orlike job simulations that people
can find from online. And that really actually equips
you with those technical skill sets that are obviously a spring
week is also like 4 days. You're not missing a lot.
And I, I'm not just saying that obviously spring week is not
(14:43):
useless. It's so important if you want to
facilitate your workload. But that doesn't mean that you
cannot apply for a summer or youcannot become a bank.
So yeah. Yeah, and I'd hugely encourage
anyone who's you know in a situation where they hadn't
obtained a spring. I think as you go, who your your
colleague at LSE and the previous episode we did if you
(15:04):
just go back in our in our library, but I think he got was
it a VC, a hedge fund and another he had three, but all
came through targeting very small shops who needed their
biggest kind of bottleneck is istime.
So they needed someone to just helping hands to do a bit of a
(15:24):
Jack of all trades. But he got some phenomenal work
experience, which then enabled him to get, you know, close to
gap really quickly. So it can be done for sure.
So, OK, cool. Something else was that I think
a lot of people do is they spenda disproportionate probably
amount of time in the application process and then
(15:47):
they secure the role. And then I'm assuming, I mean,
it's been a long time for me at that stage, but there's a degree
of relief and you're like, oh wow, it's done sort of thing.
So I just wondered then this preinternship phase and just beyond
that, just what people can be doing probably all of the time,
but what can students be doing more practically speaking to
(16:11):
make sure that they are ready when when the call comes,
hopefully? Yeah.
So I can reflect on what I did obviously.
And a couple of key things that I can highlight there is
definitely building your technical skill set, like
familiarizing yourself with Excel, PowerPoint, those tools,
because those are really needed to increase efficiency once you
(16:34):
hit the ground. And like, familiarizing
yourself, especially if you are a Mac user is really important
because the shortcuts are different, like with Windows and
Mac. If you can find a way to
actually like work on Windows computers before and if you're a
Mac user, that would be such a good like advance.
Such a good tip. I never thought of that.
You know what I was in the office last week and one of my
(16:56):
colleagues went off to get a coffee away from her desk and I
needed like like a snippet tool like because I didn't I was
working hot desking to of this image and she had an Apple Mac
and I didn't even know how to like snip an image and then send
it. I was just like, what am I
doing? So if you reverse that and then
you land in a bank because no one's using Apple Macs, right?
(17:18):
Exactly. It's like a different language.
It can be like a different language if you haven't used it.
So it's really important to it'sreally important to do that.
And the second thing would be trying to learn how to think
like a banker before actually becoming one.
And like the way to do that would be obviously listening to
various deals news and reading news.
(17:39):
That's really important. But instead of just focusing
near on the numbers on those DealNews looking at, OK, So what
is that? But the qualitative reasoning
behind that data, how is this actually going to affect this
business, this industry? Thinking about those
intricacies, trying to force yourself to think a bit more
out-of-the-box, I would say thatis, I think really helpful.
(18:01):
And in terms of reading the deals as well, familiarizing
yourself with the jargon, the abbreviations, those are really
important too. And those can be really helpful
when you actually start the job,I would say.
And the third thing, which is sometimes underestimated, I
think is definitely building connections beforehand.
It can be with your like teammates trying to like like
(18:22):
arrange a face to face coffee chat beforehand and build that
sense of rapport with them. And also like people who post
the internship on LinkedIn, liketrying to reach out to your
cohort and like get to know thembeforehand.
Those are really important things because the first initial
days like that can be really stressful and knowing people
around that's just like that will definitely reduce the
(18:44):
stress levels and that will allow you to actually become a
part of that community easily aswell once you join.
So yeah. Talking of stress levels, maybe
I could ask you a question about, I mentioned earlier, you
go to, you know, quite a competitive university from an
environment perspective. You're surrounded by a pretty
(19:05):
strong candidate. You know, you interact with them
on campus, at the assessment center in the internship.
How do you avoid comparing to others and then that then
leading to imposter syndrome or too much pressure that you can't
feel like you can remain composed and and perform at your
best. So yeah, avoiding comparison and
(19:27):
kind of the confidence, I guess what, what's your take on that?
Yeah, that's again like really tricky at LSE of course, but
like comparison is the tip of joy, right.
So that should be the initial approach, but so like tying back
to it like what I have said earlier as well identifying your
unique selling point, I think that's really crucial because
(19:49):
once you realize how you can differentiate yourself from
other candidates, I think by that you could be a lot stronger
and confident in your abilities as well like you should be.
Confident in like what you know,you already know really well and
you can learn if you don't know something.
That should be the mindset, I think.
And I think like a lot of successful individuals do have
(20:11):
imposter syndrome, but it's moreabout how you utilize it to your
benefit, how you identify your areas of improvement.
Because let's see, let's say if I realize that, oh, I don't know
this, but majority of my friendswere applying.
They know like a certain facts, like a search and technical
skill set. I would say I wouldn't think of
it as like, OK, I'm behind or something like that, but I would
(20:32):
be like, OK, day one, take action.
I will learn this as well. I will improve myself as well.
So I think that should be the way to approach definitely like
avoiding comparison. And if you have areas of
improvements, that's OK. That should be the thing because
investment banking, it's like a continuous improvement journey.
It's a steep learning curve. So there's always something new
(20:53):
to learn. So yeah.
And how about on the confidence side specifically?
Is there anything on that? I think with the confidence side
definitely believing that you'reputting your 100% into this
process and you're going to be successful at the end of this
process. But I think like the key there
(21:15):
is sometimes people define success merely based on concrete
outcomes. And I think that affects
confidence. One could be like, oh, I didn't
have a spring week, Oh, I'm lacking behind a concrete
outcome scale, or like I had three 515 rejections and I
didn't do well in my first interview.
If you define success merely just looking at those outcomes,
(21:37):
then I think it's really difficult to be confident.
But if you define success more of like the continuous
accumulation of knowledge and the experience, but then I think
it's easier to be confident that, OK, I'm putting a lot in
this process and I'm actually learning a lot and I'm going to
be successful. So that should be the mindset, I
think. Yeah.
(21:58):
I almost think like one thing that you can have control of or
influence of on its outcome is the amount of effort and
consistent approach that you're going to have.
Because actually, I think for a lot of people, that's where it
can come undone a little bit, but it's if you can just keep
that mindset of progression takes time, but you've got to
(22:22):
stay at it and be consistent. It's that that's unlocks then
the the kind of confidence I think in the end.
OK, cool. And the final kind of practical
tips. I know from when we spoke
before, there was kind of three,I guess kind of good levers you
(22:42):
could pull for someone who, you know, with an internship at JP
Morgan or any other top bank next summer.
What could they be doing? Because I was just looking at
LinkedIn this morning, everyone's kind of finding out,
have they got an offer or not? It's kind of that part of the
year. What would your advice be to
them going into that experience in summer 26?
(23:04):
Yeah. So the first thing would be
balancing perfectionism with practicality.
I think that's really crucial because in investment banking we
have to deliver a perfect output.
Like that is what is expected. But also having efficiency is
really important as well becauseyou're given a deadline, you
need to actually deliver something in a time pressured
(23:26):
environment. So having a practical approach
is really crucial. I think like instead of your
like perfectionism preventing you to start the task, I think
you should approach it with likean open up minded mindset and
like give it a go and then double, triple check it.
So that is really crucial because time pressure is I think
one of the key things that appears as a struggle.
(23:50):
And second thing would definitely be like visibility.
I cannot highlight the importance of visibility.
And what I mean by that is actually leveraging like
building genuine connections, having that initiative to
actually knock on the doors of senior people to actually
arrange coffee chats. That's really crucial.
Getting that like stakeholder byunderstanding what different
(24:12):
people value the most and building genuine connections
based on that is I think really crucial.
Because what sometimes matters at the end is if a senior person
can say, oh, I remember this interns face.
So that's really important actually.
And the third thing would be there is having a positive
(24:33):
mindset and a growth mindset. That's really crucial because
this is an industry where you'regoing to make mistakes.
And it's like really important to realize that there will be
negative feedback as well. And you should see them as
actually learning opportunities,reflect on those and grow.
And that like negative feedback should never, ever like
demotivate you. I think that's a key point.
(24:57):
Yeah, I remember speaking to a few that kind of heads of
divisions before who were super senior and actually that last
point was really key for them. It was like, I want them to have
like this aura of just positivity if energy of like
these are the young people coming in and like that's the
type of culture and atmosphere that I want.
Like and it's again, it feels like that is something we can
(25:20):
control. Like how you know that that
mindset of positivity. So yeah, it shouldn't, should
never be underestimated. Exactly.
One last thing, then, one thing you wish someone had told you
earlier. I think knowing your end goal,
you're why that's really important in this application
(25:41):
process. And it took me a while to like
get there, but how I learned that was I was listening to one
of the motivational theorists, Dan Pink, and he has a unique
way of defining like sense of purpose.
You're why, And I think that's really important to discover
that discovering that is really crucial because once you
discovered that like all the process resilience like comes
(26:04):
easily. And you can say, OK, I'm not
actually like doing these just for the interviews, but I'm
actually doing these because I want to become a banker one day
and I will become one day. Then you see this whole process
as a accumulation of knowledge and doing something for your
future self. And that really helps you to be
motivated all the time. Yeah, so, so true.
(26:28):
So, OK, well, look, to to conclude then there's kind of a
few things that I was making notes on whenever you and I have
interacted. And the things that I get is,
you know, you don't need a finance degree to break into
banking, but it's quite clear from what you've said and how
you say it. I mean, definitely that energy I
get from you completely is you need that curiosity, that
(26:50):
consistency, that discipline to build those technical skills as
early as possible. I think you said it and I
totally agree. And this this sort of stuff
doesn't have to cost you. I know that there is programs
you can do, but you know, these podcasts, these deal flows that
get talked about, you know, it'sall there for the taking.
(27:12):
It's kind of on on your shoulders to whether you want to
consume that sort of stuff. Then preparation isn't just
about interviews. I think that was really cool
what you said, which is like kind of forming consistent
habits that make day one of yourinternship just feel like a
natural flow rather than a surprise.
(27:33):
And then you're kind of chasing to make up for lost time through
the internship, which I think issometimes a bit of a mistake.
And then your edge comes actually from your mindset in
the end, because I think a lot of people can probably level up
to accumulate the necessary skills on Excel and the basis of
financial modeling. So what is it that actually
(27:56):
makes you better than the next person?
Probably is your mindset, your attitude.
So understanding your why, avoiding peer comparisons,
showing genuine initiative, you said is a really key thing.
And I think this is so importantmessages and I can see why that
bank wanted you back full time. So Ella, thank you so much for
(28:18):
for sharing your insights and your time.
I hope you don't mind. I'm sure people on LinkedIn
after hearing this are probably going to want to connect.
So I hope it doesn't doesn't clog your box too much.
But thank you so much for your time, Ella.
Thank you.
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