June 25, 2025 • 41 mins
In this episode, Anthony speaks with Wee Kii Teh, a Portfolio Manager at Allianz Global Investors, about the practical skills and mindset needed to succeed in a competitive finance career.Drawing on experience across credit risk, capital markets, and now impact investing, Wee Kii shares what really sets top interns apart, how to adapt to new roles quickly, and why asking smart questions is more important than knowing all the answers.Whether you’re preparing for an assessment centre, trying to decide between sell-side and buy-side, or figuring out how to navigate workplace culture, this conversation is full of actionable insight.Expect practical tips on upskilling, career transitions, building strong relationships, and finding roles that match your values and ambition.(00:00) Introduction and Career Journey(02:26) Transitioning from STEM to Finance(08:59) Building Confidence and Seeking Mentorship(13:36) Adapting to New Environments and Upskilling(16:33) The Importance of Company Culture(21:21) Internship Insights and Attributes of Top Interns(24:54) Buy-Side vs Sell-Side Experience(27:53) Cultivating Relationships and Mentorship(31:58) Career Priorities and What Changes with Seniority(34:08) Impact Investing and ESG Opportunities(40:02) Advice for Young Professionals
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
Wiki Absolute pleasure to have you in this series.
How are you? I'm good and thank you for
having me on this podcast. And so to give you a bit of a, a
flavour, what we're going to cover is the career journey in
transitions, developing key skills, work culture and
leadership and impact investing and ESG.
They're kind of the four areas within that.
(00:23):
We've got a whole bunch of questions to ask, but Wiki.
Perhaps we could start with justa brief history about your
background, from student to whatyou do in your present role.
Sure. So I did a STEM degree at
university, actually. So I read biotechnology at
Imperial College London, and I graduated with a Bachelor's of
(00:46):
Science First Class honors in 2015.
In my penultimate year, I did a summer internship with Bank of
America or what was then Bank ofAmerica Merrill Lynch within the
credit risk department and I left it.
I got the graduate offer and then I returned to the bank when
I ultimately graduated there. I spent six years across credit
(01:11):
risk and then also in the debt capital markets side of the bank
on the emerging markets bonds origination desk and also then
on the syndicated loans structuring origination and
sales desk covering your Middle East and Africa EMEA.
After the six years, I then joined Alliance Global
(01:32):
Investors, which is a global asset manager fully owned by
Alliance and insurance company. I joined the 2021 within the
development finance investment team, which is now the
development finance and impact credit investment team.
We've expanded scopes and and strategies and my team, just to
give a bit more context is part of the private markets platform
(01:55):
at audience Global investors. And the private markets platform
is itself around 15 to 20% of total assets on the management
or what we call AUM of the firm.Within my team, we make debt
investments globally focusing onemerging markets and Pan Europe,
with our investment strategies primarily having a blended
(02:17):
finance and slash or impact angle.
Well, there's, there's a lot there to to unpack for sure.
We will get get through it. But perhaps we could start with
with at the top where you said you were STEM, you you studied A
biotechnology degree. And so I just wondered how does
someone studying that get wind of a potential career in, in
(02:40):
finance and how, how did that transition happen from I'm sure
there were some big challenges to confront and a bit of a, a
bridging in the, the kind of knowledge and skills gap.
Yeah, sure. So quite a bit for me to go back
into my past and dig up. No, but I, I would say I had
friends at LSC and that was how I got wind of, you know, doing
(03:02):
spring weeks, etcetera, because they're all applying busy apply
for that in their first years atuniversity.
And so I applied for one of the spring weeks.
I think it was a winning woman event at JP Morgan.
It did that in my first year forabout half a week, I believe.
And they're really, I also had the opportunity, you know, to
(03:25):
learn across a variety of roles within the investment bank.
You know, they covered the financial market side trading,
but also investment banking, corporate banking, you know what
capital markets. So super interesting, but I was
super new to the space at the time, obviously studying a STEM
degree, but there I, I didn't, you know, succeed at the
(03:48):
assessment center to get into the summer internship.
And I ended up, you know, joining, as I mentioned earlier,
Bank of America Merrill Lynch for my summer internship.
And there I got a graduate offer, but there were a lot of,
you know, learnings in that time.
So as part of the feedback from the assessment center at JP
(04:09):
Morgan, they basically, you know, said that you know what,
we liked you, but you didn't have enough confidence at the
assessment center. We were just weren't sure if you
could perform if you were to join as a summer intern in that
respect. And so I really took that away
when I was preparing for my, youknow, assessment centres for
(04:30):
Bank of America, but also other banks I was applying to at the
time in my penultimate year at university to try to make sure
that, you know, I had that confidence aspect locked down.
You know, I made sure that I, you know, I watched my body
language, I watched the, the language I used at assessment
(04:52):
center and obviously made sure Iprepared a lot from a technical
perspective as much as I could, you know, with the resources I
had to ensure that I knew what Iwas talking about if I was asked
certain questions. And I had that confidence, you
know, that showed through hopefully at that assessment
center, which I believe it did. I got the offer and then I, I
(05:13):
went back as a graduate. So I think the biggest challenge
to answer your question and making that change going from
science to finance is that I didn't have that background,
that formal background in economics, accounting, you know,
financial statement analysis. And as I mentioned, you know,
(05:34):
financial markets were new to me, and that meant having to get
up to speed with a lot of financial jargon and simple
economics concepts, like, for example, relationships between
interest rates in on bond pricesor even like simple accounting
principles, you know, the fact that assets need to balance with
liabilities and equity. So that's kind of the biggest
(05:57):
challenge I felt that I faced. And to the second part of your
question, how did I bridge that gap?
I'd say 2 main parts. 1 is formal training.
So as part of the graduate program at the investment bank,
I spent about 3 weeks in the US receiving training on discounted
(06:20):
cash flow. So DCF modeling, financial
statements, analysis, accountingprinciples.
And you did that with the cohort.
So you're you're in credit risk at that time.
That was important. But the other way, which is
arguably more important because it's really effective, is it's
not so structured in terms of like training.
(06:43):
It's learning on the desk, basically just doing the work,
you know, not being afraid to take the first step at putting
together a credit memo on, you know, a bank in the Middle East,
which you've never heard of, butjust, you know, saying like, you
know what, I'll try anyway. And if I have questions after
I've taken that first step, I will, you know, set up time with
(07:04):
my colleague, my teammate, to sit down with them and go
through it. Apart from that.
So, so just asking, you know, your other teammates, other
colleagues on the floor and other teams that work with you
for coffee catch UPS because it's always very useful.
You never know what you're goingto learn from these people who
have way more experience than you at that stage.
(07:29):
Was there anything from the STEMskills that you had learnt
through academia that you saw actually without unknowingly
when you learnt some of the financial concepts that you just
went, oh, actually that's prettysimilar that you can think of?
I, I feel like it's more the soft skills that were useful
(07:50):
rather than any sort of like things that learn technically,
because I was really deep into the biology of cells and like,
you know, mitosis, etcetera, like, but really into like
signaling very, very cellular level concepts, which I, it was
very difficult to pull into to finance.
But I think that the sort of soft skills like for example, in
(08:12):
my final year, you do a researchproject and you're meant to
write a thesis. Things like being able to
communicate clearly through yourwriting, things like making sure
to footnote a reference, appropriate sources is very
helpful when you're writing a credit memo because then you're
like, you know, I show you exactly where my data comes
(08:34):
from. It's not something that, you
know, I haven't checked beforehand and make sure it came
from a credible source, public source.
Or if it's a private one, some something that we can rely on
quite reliably. And those sort of skill sets I
believe came through from from my science degree.
Yeah, that's really interesting actually.
(08:56):
And then kind of moving on to the the next question, looking
at your resume, your careers evolved across different roles
sectors. I just wondered, did you ever
feel any pressure to follow a more traditional path?
And I mentioned that because youmentioned in your your
introduction of your history, you went to Imperial College
London. And I know that a top university
(09:18):
like Imperial where it can be quite hyper kind of competitive
and people tend to be quite channelled into certain types of
roles. I just wondered what that
experience was like for you. So the short answer is yes.
And I, I think I suffer from comparing with some of my peers
(09:38):
who may have entered, you know, a single career path like
investment banking and they've just stayed there And now, you
know, to me at least, they seem much more advanced in their
career, you know, titles and paywise, etcetera.
And, you know, sometimes I also get what ifs if I had stayed in
(09:58):
one of my first few roles and just, you know, stuck it out and
just built my career from there.But, you know, ultimately I, I
listened to my gut, to my instincts.
And I think that's really important.
It's super important to listen to your gut because it will
guide you to where you need to be.
You might not be happy if you had stayed in that same role.
(10:21):
And, you know, it might look good on paper, but inside, like
in terms of, you know, how you feel you are as a person, you
might not be in as good a place as if you had made those
changes. So I would say, yeah, I, I did
feel the pressure, but you know,I make my peace with it knowing
(10:42):
the sort of benefits I've gottenby having a more non linear
career path. That that confidence to kind of
go against what the the kind of heard were doing at that point,
because I know I interact with the students still to this day
at LSE Imperial UCL, and I know what that environment is like.
So did you, I've heard before someone mentioned to me in this
(11:04):
series about having your own personal board of directors, so
people who you can go to who don't have any other, who are
not involved in that environmentthat you can speak to and things
like that. Did you have anything like that
that gave you some confidence tokind of break break the mold a
little bit? Oh, it's a tough question.
(11:25):
It says tough a question as it is on like mentors, for example,
because for me, like that personal board of directors is
like a group of mentors who can advise you on, you know,
different aspects of your life might not just be on your
career, but maybe some personal choices you're making as well.
Right. I, I definitely had certain
(11:50):
people that I went to for advicewhen I was making big career
decisions. And I have to say there, there
are people in, you know, either bosses or ex bosses in, in my
previous roles before I was making a move to another part of
the bank, for example. And I felt, you know, their,
(12:11):
their insight and wisdom was very helpful because, you know,
they knew a bit more about making current moves, having
done these in their, in their careers themselves.
And they can give you a bit of that retrospective, which they
wouldn't have had at the time they were making those moves.
But a lot of it's also personal.So like, you know, my parents,
my dad for example, is very wiseman and just going to him and
(12:34):
he's always able to give me quite an unbiased view
sometimes, which is for me helpful.
So I think I combine all this. But at the end of the day, like
you are the one person making itthe decision that will affect
every day of your life. You know the job that you wake
up to get yourself to and you know, affecting your, your
(12:56):
balance, your routine, things like that.
You know where you live, where you set up your, your home base,
and in the end, it comes down toyou.
So you it it. I highly recommend taking all
the various advices that people you trust, people you know have
your best interests at heart into consideration.
(13:18):
But at the end of day, you make that choice and you have to make
peace with whatever choice you've made, knowing that that
the only person you can say has you know, can take
responsibility for that is yourself.
OK, that's great. And then to just to round up
this kind of section of the conversation having made these
(13:38):
different moves to different companies and roles, it's
something that I think a lot of people might be intimidated by a
little bit afraid of in general.And so I just wondered about how
you what's your process to upskill and adapt to new
environments? For me, I ask questions and I
(14:00):
take notes. I like writing things down
because I feel like I learned better that way.
My pet peeve is actually when someone asks me the same thing
they've asked me before and I'vealready explained it in
excruciating detail. So I try to do the same thing
when I'm learning something fromothers.
(14:20):
I take notes because I'm committed to learning and
absorbing. What Dev said, Similar to what
I've also mentioned to one of your earlier questions, is
getting my hands dirty and just doing the work that's been asked
is the best way to adapt to a new environment.
For example, when I joined Alliance Global Investors, I
(14:43):
wanted to learn how to structureblended finance transactions and
funds as that was a way to mobilize, you know, capital at
scale to emerging markets. And I wanted to be a part of
that. And my manager, day one, she
basically shared the entire suite of legal documentation for
one of our blended debt funds. I've never seen fund legal docs
(15:04):
before that state. As you said, you know, here you
go, you're working on this fund amendment.
And basically I took it and I just jumped into it and that's
how I got up to speed in quite ashort time.
I guess to say my advice to others is that, you know, find
what works for you. Maybe it's you're more of a
verbal listener. That's how you remember things.
So you talk to others and you absorb through listening, but I
(15:29):
think the more you throw yourself into it at the start,
the faster you overcome the learning curve.
OK, well, let's move on and let's talk a little bit on the
developing skills area as an extension of that.
And when you and I met for a coffee a few weeks ago, yeah,
you were telling me about something which I guess I never
(15:51):
really thought about, but makes absolute sense, which was a lot
of people are researching, say companies, which involves not
just financials, but management structures, things of that
nature. And you were talking about how
then you could take some of these learnings about the
analysis that you might be conducting in your work.
And then how actually can you apply that to internal teams and
(16:13):
work culture and the kind of blended nature of the learnings
from one could be transitioned into the other.
So I just wanted to kind of go back to that and get a bit more
of your your take on on that, that experience and how that
applies in your, your kind of current role.
Yeah, I, I think for me, that's more of when you talk about, you
(16:36):
know, looking at, you know, internal teams and looking at
companies and their work culturefor, for someone to be able to
analyze whether they want to move into that company or not
for, for their career. For me, it's, it's a lot about
culture. The culture of the place you are
working in is very, very important.
(16:58):
It can keep you there or it can drive you out.
So in many careers in finance, as, as you will know this,
Anthony, it involves like long hours and spending lots of time
at work with your team, with your other colleagues.
And that means there's a, you know, very high chance that you
as a person, your mood, your happiness levels will be
(17:20):
affected by the culture and the environment at the workplace.
Additionally, it's important to state that the culture within a
certain company is not homogeneous.
There may not be the exact same culture or style of working
across teams or departments in acompany.
And in fact, it can be quite, you know, stark in terms of
differences. So it's important before you
(17:44):
choose to work for a particular firm in a particular team to do
the, the, the research. You know, you look online, you
do the desktop research, but also you try to do a lot of the,
the, the type of research you can't get from just reading
articles. You know, to speak to, you have
(18:05):
to speak to as many relevant people who are from the team,
who have worked in that team, who have worked with that team
or even just generally from the company to try to get a better
picture of what you're getting into.
I mean, even now in transactions.
So if there's a particular sector I'm not very familiar
with, we speak to experts who are from that sector because
that sort of information you canget from someone who's lived
(18:27):
through that for like, you know,decades of their life is, is
quite valuable. And it's quite different to the
type of information you can get from just reading off, you know,
research articles online. So talking to people who have
lived that experience is very important.
And I think the last thing I'll say on it is that of course you
will never really know until youjoin, but at least you've made
(18:49):
an informed decision before you take the leap.
Just like, you know, with any investment, you never really
know if an investment is going to be like, you know, the best
investment of your life or maybenot.
But if you've shown that you've done your diligence process,
you've done your analysis the way that should be done, you
know, based on your investment process, your, your conviction
(19:11):
as well, you can stand by it. Then that's an informed
decision. And then you can go ahead,
taking the leap, making that decision, knowing you've done
all you could do. I've heard people say before as
well it's a particular person tofocus on.
Is The Who would be your managerand what type of progression or
(19:33):
activities as to people below that manager who've trodden the
path before you in those roles done?
Is that something you'd also advise?
Is kind of seeing what type of manager or leadership you'd be
working under as to a pre a somewhat piece of the puzzle,
not complete, but as a predictorof your potential development
within that role. I think that's definitely one of
(19:56):
the indicators you should look at because.
For me, I think part of the reason why I joined my current
role is because, you know, I wasreally inspired by my current
manager, who is my hiring managers.
And basically it turns out that she was inspired to join this
firm because of her hiring manager at the time, who is now
(20:20):
a group CIO. So basically, you know, we're
all women there. There was this, I think, sense
of like seeing someone, you know, so inspirational and
someone you really knew you could learn a lot from in that
team and your development would be somewhat shaped by them.
(20:42):
And you sometimes, you know, make that leap because you trust
the people that you'll be reported to.
So I've seen that and I've seen that for some of the colleagues
as well who have joined because they were interviewed or they
met the hiring manager during interviews and they were so
inspired by the stories and whatthey could do if they were to
(21:02):
join the firm and take on that role.
So I think that's actually superimportant.
I mean, it's not the only factorin the decision, but sometimes
it can be the factor that that causes you to take the leap and
and make a choice to join the firm.
OK. Well, that's something that I
know a number of students who will want to hear the response
(21:22):
to on the next question, which is you mentioned before about
off cycle internships. I think that's because where you
were, that's something that exists and you find it
particularly valuable. You're explaining to me before
about because you get to bit more time, bit more hands on
exposure and you get to see projects, transactions from kind
of end to end. But maybe something as an answer
(21:44):
that might appeal to a wider audience, and great to get your
insight, is about what attributes set the top interns
apart from just an average intern, so to speak.
Yeah. And to clarify, off cycle
internships here mean longer term internships, so those
lasting, you know, around 12 months rather than those eight
(22:07):
to 10 week types that you usually see for summer
internships. So my experience generally, and
I've worked with a lot of interns in my previous roles and
now in my current role, is that I find that the top interns are
hungry to learn. They are not afraid to take on a
task or a project or a transaction that is completely
(22:30):
foreign to them and learn through that process.
They also tend to ask for feedback after undertaking a
task for you. And you know, they know that
they are live there to learn andthey don't know everything yet,
but you know, that's OK. So they'll ask for, you know, a
lot of questions or do you know also for feedback on their
(22:53):
performance after having done something saying like, OK, look,
what could I have done better? Maybe I didn't do that so well.
Can I just check with you if that was OK, the way I replied,
etcetera, like reply to e-mail, things like that.
And I think that's super valuable because people, you
know, once you've asked the feedback, they tend to be a bit
more, you know, softer and more like constructive because
(23:15):
they're like, oh, wow, this person really just wants to
develop and learn. Like, it's great.
Let me share with you all the things that you can do to be a
better, to be better at this role and to build a career here,
if that's what you want it to be.
I also find that the best interns are proactive.
You know, they, they look to help you with any work tasks as
(23:37):
no task is deemed, you know, beneath them.
They know they will learn from anything they do at the firm,
especially if they're working with good teams.
So if you're looking to take on an internship, you know, you're
still studying or just graduatedin between courses and you're
looking to convert that, you know, internship into a full
(23:57):
time role as some of these long term internships can, can often
do it. Of course, it varies by firms,
but I recommend having and showing some of these attributes
that I mentioned earlier. It does go a long way.
OK, good stuff and let's let's move on and talk a little bit
more. We touched on it there work
culture, but want to dive into that and and leadership as a
(24:21):
concept as well. And one of the things that as
you were describing your career journey and the different
companies you've worked with andfor both sell side and buy side.
And I think this is like a feelslike a conundrum for a lot of
young people. They're like where do I begin,
do I transition, start one placeor the other, do I get pigeon
(24:42):
holed if I go for one or the other?
So on and so forth. But you having done both, I just
wondered what are the key differences in in skills and
mindset? Yeah.
So I'll comment very generally. And also I'll caveat that not
all firms are the same for my earlier comment regarding
culture, but based on my experience of the cell side more
(25:06):
generally and also speaking to, you know, peers in that space or
still in that space, sell side tends to have a higher focus on
presentation skill sets. I would say as it involves, you
know, selling or or pitching quite regularly.
If you're in a client facing role, even you know, if you're a
junior, you will be working on pitch decks, you know, for these
(25:29):
pitches and that involves knowing how to put together
presentations well. Or if you didn't know when you
enter the role, then you'll knowby the end of a few years there.
Whereas on the sales side, you know so resident buy side, you
know we can be more analytical Ithink and technically focused
(25:49):
for example because we are investing on behalf of our
clients and they can be retail or institutional investors.
But generally I find out you know, we are bound by the strong
sense of fiduciary duty and needto make sure that any investment
is sound and the risk return profile has been measured up
(26:10):
appropriately. We have skin in the game when we
make an investment. So having done your diligence
process properly, making sure that you are making in the right
decision per the investment guidelines, per what you think
your investor would like as partof this mandate, portfolio
diversification, etcetera, is super important for us.
(26:33):
To your next question, what should young professionals look
for when you know, assessing whether something is is, is the
right fit for them? Basically, I think you have to
ask a few questions and you know, one of them is whether the
company, that desk, the team will teach you what you want to
(26:53):
learn. Are they doing the things that
you want to learn about and do yourself?
And another thing is that you have to then look at the
company's values and the cultureof the team in which you're
applying for a role. And you know, early comment on
this still stands. Are you still talking to people,
etcetera. And one of the other parts of
(27:13):
that thing I would say is that, you know, after you've done all
these things, don't think too much about it.
Once you've done your initial scope, you know, initial
analysis of the job scope, the learning potential, culture, pay
and all kind of lines up for you, don't be afraid to take the
plunge and go for it. I would say nothing will line up
(27:34):
perfectly all the time. So don't wait for the perfect
role. Don't hold up your learning
process. Sounds a little bit like
investing, trying to pick the bottom of this falling market
for the I won't go there. So, so, so don't worry.
But that was very, very sound advice.
And something else that you mentioned to me before was you
(27:55):
emphasized the value of people in in an organization.
And I just wondered how can someone in their early career
cultivate strong relationships and find mentors to help
facilitate that that growth in their career?
It's a great question. So sometimes your firm will have
a formal mentoring program and you can sign up for those.
(28:19):
It doesn't hurt to, you know, atthe very least, even if you
don't connect with your mentor as well that's been chosen for
you as part of the program, it could increase your visibility
and increase your connections and network in the firm.
So I would say, you know, go forit if your firm has that.
Sometimes, you know, your mentorcan be a boss or an ex boss, as
(28:40):
I mentioned earlier, because they've, you know, actually seen
you work and they can vouch for your standards and your work
ethics and know how you think. But they just to be clear, they
inherently, if they're your current manager, they have a
conflict of interest because sometimes you know, your
(29:00):
development doesn't exactly lineup with the directional
trajectory of the team. So I would say you know that
sometimes isn't the the best place to look for a mentor.
However, they can generally giveyou quite constructive feedback
and also pointers on developmentbecause you know, they've worked
with you directly before. But otherwise, apart from these
(29:22):
ways, finding a mentor can happen quite organically.
So you can meet people at eventslike career recruitment events,
you catch up over coffee, you know, and then you build a
relationship quite organically that way.
And now, and something that I mentioned earlier as well, which
I'll re emphasize is that you can have mentors for different
(29:45):
aspects of your career. You don't need the 1 mentor to
be the only person to give you advice and then you follow that
to a tee. Different people can be more
useful in terms of their advice for different different parts of
of life and different parts of their career.
So that's one point. When you grow more senior, there
(30:07):
is also the concept of coaches which are there to help you for
development in a much more structured way.
But that's something that I think will become more useful
because it also costs, you know,bundling potential to spend on
this unless your firm sponsors it.
And but it will come more relevant around maybe the mid
(30:28):
career stage. OK.
So yeah, go ahead. Sorry.
Yeah, sorry, I just wanted to add one last point on it, which
I just thought about, just to summarize everything, is that I
wouldn't get hung up on the ideaof finding that one person to
call mentor, which I know some people do because you like, you
(30:49):
know, I need a mentor, I need a mentor.
But I would say just look at howyou can build relationships with
people who give you good advice.Generally just look to cultivate
these relationships. Don't need to put a label on it,
but you'll find that over time it's, you know, becoming
something more of a mentorship, although you don't need to call
(31:10):
it that. Yeah, no, that's really good
sound advice actually, because Ithink by putting a label on it,
you just feel this immense pressure to be like, right, I
have to find this. And everyone has this
preconceived idea of this kind of wise old person guiding you,
steering you through your professional and personal life.
But it's not always quite like that, you know.
(31:31):
OK. And then the, the last bit was
something which again, is to address somewhat a source of
anxiety, I think amongst students or those entering the
workforce, which is they feel like the decision they make now
will define them. And you know, given that your
(31:51):
your career that you've described up until this date, I
just wondered if you could talk about how career priorities
shift and is there kind of an idea that's for you, maybe not
for everyone, this kind of earlycareers sort of one to three
years, the more mid and then themore senior.
Plus you talked about coaching there when you start taking more
(32:13):
ownership over bigger teams and things like that.
So I wondered what advice you could give to someone just
starting out versus someone in their kind of mid career.
Yeah, if you're starting out, don't be afraid to cast the net
wide when considering a career pathway to follow.
You really do have, you know, a lot of time ahead to decide
(32:37):
what's the career path for you. So there's no need to rush into
one type of career only. I would say take time to figure
out what you want to do and you can do so by, you know,
experimenting with short stands,you know, internships, as we've
mentioned, you know, for example, looking back, I may
(32:57):
have wanted to keep my career choices open rather than going
straight into banking right after university.
Partly I did that, you know, because I had an offer already
at the end of my second year andI didn't have to think about
applying further. I like that role, etcetera.
But you know, looking back now, you know, 10 years, yeah,
actually coming to 10 years later, I've seen a variety of
(33:20):
people with non linear career trajectories who have done well
for themselves, you know, and ithasn't Hanford them from having
successful careers. And in fact, I think some of the
earlier life choices, which may have seemed less rational know
maybe they've moved abroad to take some time off but also
decided to study now language. It has completely enriched their
(33:43):
personal and professional experiences overall, which
probably has set them up for setthem up for success now.
So my advice is just take your time.
OK. Well, let's let's close by in
the final segment talking about impact investing and ESG, which
I know a number of people are inalways interested to hear more
(34:06):
about. And so you've worked in
sustainability and ESG across different investment scenarios,
so to speak. How do you see impact investing
evolving? And what opportunities exist for
young professionals interested in this space?
Because I think sometimes they find that a hard answer to find.
(34:27):
Yeah, impact investing space is a really exciting 1.
So looking more at the positive impact that companies can have
on the planet and on societies rather than just focusing on,
you know, companies managing their ESG downsides and negative
impacts on the natural world andsocial environment.
(34:48):
That's in general what I deem impact investing versus ESG
investing. To be clear, I think it that
vesting is one of the key areas that will continue to develop
and grow further and this will be more in the private markets
side of things I believe as typically the companies that
(35:08):
have this impact potential. So to generate these positive
impacts on the planet and the people, they are smaller than
the mid sized to large cap corporates who have publicly
listed in equity and bonds. These companies are usually like
relatively new, so about 5 to 10years of inception and they're
(35:30):
working on specific solutions that tackle real world
environmental and special socialchallenges.
So not necessarily at the size or maturity that you'll see in
the public market. So I believe that will be more
and that's why I mentioned it'llbe more on the private market
side of things. But the growth and I'm talking
(35:51):
about will likely be staggered across regions.
So for example, now Asia is lagging slightly behind Europe
and the US in terms of depth of the impact investing landscape.
But I feel the next five years it could look quite different
than private markets. Investment landscape could look
quite different. And that depends partly on
(36:12):
investor interest and also regulatory incentives.
So apart from, you know, pureplay and pet investing funds
right now, I'm also seeing ESG themed funds being quite
popular, especially those which are decarbonization and energy
transition focused. I also think that there is a big
(36:33):
focus of institutional investorson climate finance right now,
although that might also change depending on regulations and
certain jurisdictions. So something to watch more
generally overall. And just to answer the last bit
of your question, with this growth in sustainability and in
(36:54):
impact investing, there will likely also be a growth in roles
in this space. It could be more on the
investment side. So they're the typical skill
sets required of investment professionals who will be needed
apart from an inherent interest in sustainability and special
impact. But it also could be on rules
(37:15):
that would not have existed in the mainstream 15 years ago,
like ESG risk assessment and analysis, impact measurement,
impact reporting, ESD reporting.These types of roles would also
be needed. So this, you know, these could
be some of the the types of positions that young
(37:36):
professionals interested in impact investing could consider
outside of investment roles. Is there such a thing as an
internship that any companies you know have run in that
specific department? Or is it a case of a student
just acquiring those baseline skills like you mentioned?
There are definitely internshipsin these types of departments
(37:58):
and then non investment roles aswell.
And at Allen's Global Investors,we have that because we have an
empowers impact strategy team that does impact measurement and
impact management. And we do take on off cycle
interns there or father we've taken on someone who who is
learning in that space. So I'm sure other firms as well
(38:20):
who have impact investing units,we'll have internships if they
offer internships in general. So something to definitely look
out for and and take a look online.
You can type in impact investing, asset management
firms and I'm sure a couple willcome out including us.
Just finally on that subject matter, is there any available
(38:42):
good resource for impact investing like a podcast or a
section on a a major financial media outlet or anything like
that, that you look at that you could recommend?
For that one, not specifically in any sort of public news
(39:02):
sources, but there are like databases like the global impact
investing network. GIN does articles on impact
investing landscape, new privatemarkets as well does have a
section on impact investing. However, I believe those are not
always free. That could be a free trial, but
(39:25):
I think you do need a subscription.
So nothing I would say that I atleast followed that might be so
readily available. However, having said that, you
know, I might not have scoped the entire universe of, of
impact investing websites and news websites rather, and so
there could be more out there which I'm just not so familiar
(39:46):
with this stage. I did hear right, Jim is is OK
Yeah, mental note. All right, so to to finish the
conversation and I've been asking this in all of these in
this this kind of mini series isthat if you were to go back.
And talk to your younger self starting out.
(40:08):
Is there any advice you'd pass on to a 21 year old wiki?
I'll stick with 11 main one and it's that life and likewise your
career is not just about moving up a ladder in a linear fashion.
(40:30):
You know, I would say think about what you want to learn,
what you want to do, and don't be afraid to take the leaps,
even if it means that you'll be detracting from a more
traditional and leaner path if that is what you want to explore
and that is what you know would make you a richer person from an
experience perspective. So don't rush.
(40:53):
You have time. That's probably what I would
continue to say because I felt like I was always rushing.
I was used to get on to the nextthing, which might have partly
helped me well because I was very hungry to learn.
But you can be hungry to learn without, you know, feeling like
you are always in a rush. It's more also about your
(41:13):
perspective on things, and that transmits into the general
energy you give out to the world.
So I think that's what I would probably say to my younger self
starting out. OK, Ricky, thank you again.
It's been a real pleasure to host you.
Thank you. Thank you, Anthony.
Wiki Absolute pleasure to have you in this series.
How are you? I'm good and thank you for
having me on this podcast. And so to give you a bit of a, a
flavour, what we're going to cover is the career journey in
transitions, developing key skills, work culture and
leadership and impact investing and ESG.
They're kind of the four areas within that.
(00:23):
We've got a whole bunch of questions to ask, but Wiki.
Perhaps we could start with justa brief history about your
background, from student to whatyou do in your present role.
Sure. So I did a STEM degree at
university, actually. So I read biotechnology at
Imperial College London, and I graduated with a Bachelor's of
(00:46):
Science First Class honors in 2015.
In my penultimate year, I did a summer internship with Bank of
America or what was then Bank ofAmerica Merrill Lynch within the
credit risk department and I left it.
I got the graduate offer and then I returned to the bank when
I ultimately graduated there. I spent six years across credit
(01:11):
risk and then also in the debt capital markets side of the bank
on the emerging markets bonds origination desk and also then
on the syndicated loans structuring origination and
sales desk covering your Middle East and Africa EMEA.
After the six years, I then joined Alliance Global
(01:32):
Investors, which is a global asset manager fully owned by
Alliance and insurance company. I joined the 2021 within the
development finance investment team, which is now the
development finance and impact credit investment team.
We've expanded scopes and and strategies and my team, just to
give a bit more context is part of the private markets platform
(01:55):
at audience Global investors. And the private markets platform
is itself around 15 to 20% of total assets on the management
or what we call AUM of the firm.Within my team, we make debt
investments globally focusing onemerging markets and Pan Europe,
with our investment strategies primarily having a blended
(02:17):
finance and slash or impact angle.
Well, there's, there's a lot there to to unpack for sure.
We will get get through it. But perhaps we could start with
with at the top where you said you were STEM, you you studied A
biotechnology degree. And so I just wondered how does
someone studying that get wind of a potential career in, in
(02:40):
finance and how, how did that transition happen from I'm sure
there were some big challenges to confront and a bit of a, a
bridging in the, the kind of knowledge and skills gap.
Yeah, sure. So quite a bit for me to go back
into my past and dig up. No, but I, I would say I had
friends at LSC and that was how I got wind of, you know, doing
(03:02):
spring weeks, etcetera, because they're all applying busy apply
for that in their first years atuniversity.
And so I applied for one of the spring weeks.
I think it was a winning woman event at JP Morgan.
It did that in my first year forabout half a week, I believe.
And they're really, I also had the opportunity, you know, to
(03:25):
learn across a variety of roles within the investment bank.
You know, they covered the financial market side trading,
but also investment banking, corporate banking, you know what
capital markets. So super interesting, but I was
super new to the space at the time, obviously studying a STEM
degree, but there I, I didn't, you know, succeed at the
(03:48):
assessment center to get into the summer internship.
And I ended up, you know, joining, as I mentioned earlier,
Bank of America Merrill Lynch for my summer internship.
And there I got a graduate offer, but there were a lot of,
you know, learnings in that time.
So as part of the feedback from the assessment center at JP
(04:09):
Morgan, they basically, you know, said that you know what,
we liked you, but you didn't have enough confidence at the
assessment center. We were just weren't sure if you
could perform if you were to join as a summer intern in that
respect. And so I really took that away
when I was preparing for my, youknow, assessment centres for
(04:30):
Bank of America, but also other banks I was applying to at the
time in my penultimate year at university to try to make sure
that, you know, I had that confidence aspect locked down.
You know, I made sure that I, you know, I watched my body
language, I watched the, the language I used at assessment
(04:52):
center and obviously made sure Iprepared a lot from a technical
perspective as much as I could, you know, with the resources I
had to ensure that I knew what Iwas talking about if I was asked
certain questions. And I had that confidence, you
know, that showed through hopefully at that assessment
center, which I believe it did. I got the offer and then I, I
(05:13):
went back as a graduate. So I think the biggest challenge
to answer your question and making that change going from
science to finance is that I didn't have that background,
that formal background in economics, accounting, you know,
financial statement analysis. And as I mentioned, you know,
(05:34):
financial markets were new to me, and that meant having to get
up to speed with a lot of financial jargon and simple
economics concepts, like, for example, relationships between
interest rates in on bond pricesor even like simple accounting
principles, you know, the fact that assets need to balance with
liabilities and equity. So that's kind of the biggest
(05:57):
challenge I felt that I faced. And to the second part of your
question, how did I bridge that gap?
I'd say 2 main parts. 1 is formal training.
So as part of the graduate program at the investment bank,
I spent about 3 weeks in the US receiving training on discounted
(06:20):
cash flow. So DCF modeling, financial
statements, analysis, accountingprinciples.
And you did that with the cohort.
So you're you're in credit risk at that time.
That was important. But the other way, which is
arguably more important because it's really effective, is it's
not so structured in terms of like training.
(06:43):
It's learning on the desk, basically just doing the work,
you know, not being afraid to take the first step at putting
together a credit memo on, you know, a bank in the Middle East,
which you've never heard of, butjust, you know, saying like, you
know what, I'll try anyway. And if I have questions after
I've taken that first step, I will, you know, set up time with
(07:04):
my colleague, my teammate, to sit down with them and go
through it. Apart from that.
So, so just asking, you know, your other teammates, other
colleagues on the floor and other teams that work with you
for coffee catch UPS because it's always very useful.
You never know what you're goingto learn from these people who
have way more experience than you at that stage.
(07:29):
Was there anything from the STEMskills that you had learnt
through academia that you saw actually without unknowingly
when you learnt some of the financial concepts that you just
went, oh, actually that's prettysimilar that you can think of?
I, I feel like it's more the soft skills that were useful
(07:50):
rather than any sort of like things that learn technically,
because I was really deep into the biology of cells and like,
you know, mitosis, etcetera, like, but really into like
signaling very, very cellular level concepts, which I, it was
very difficult to pull into to finance.
But I think that the sort of soft skills like for example, in
(08:12):
my final year, you do a researchproject and you're meant to
write a thesis. Things like being able to
communicate clearly through yourwriting, things like making sure
to footnote a reference, appropriate sources is very
helpful when you're writing a credit memo because then you're
like, you know, I show you exactly where my data comes
(08:34):
from. It's not something that, you
know, I haven't checked beforehand and make sure it came
from a credible source, public source.
Or if it's a private one, some something that we can rely on
quite reliably. And those sort of skill sets I
believe came through from from my science degree.
Yeah, that's really interesting actually.
(08:56):
And then kind of moving on to the the next question, looking
at your resume, your careers evolved across different roles
sectors. I just wondered, did you ever
feel any pressure to follow a more traditional path?
And I mentioned that because youmentioned in your your
introduction of your history, you went to Imperial College
London. And I know that a top university
(09:18):
like Imperial where it can be quite hyper kind of competitive
and people tend to be quite channelled into certain types of
roles. I just wondered what that
experience was like for you. So the short answer is yes.
And I, I think I suffer from comparing with some of my peers
(09:38):
who may have entered, you know, a single career path like
investment banking and they've just stayed there And now, you
know, to me at least, they seem much more advanced in their
career, you know, titles and paywise, etcetera.
And, you know, sometimes I also get what ifs if I had stayed in
(09:58):
one of my first few roles and just, you know, stuck it out and
just built my career from there.But, you know, ultimately I, I
listened to my gut, to my instincts.
And I think that's really important.
It's super important to listen to your gut because it will
guide you to where you need to be.
You might not be happy if you had stayed in that same role.
(10:21):
And, you know, it might look good on paper, but inside, like
in terms of, you know, how you feel you are as a person, you
might not be in as good a place as if you had made those
changes. So I would say, yeah, I, I did
feel the pressure, but you know,I make my peace with it knowing
(10:42):
the sort of benefits I've gottenby having a more non linear
career path. That that confidence to kind of
go against what the the kind of heard were doing at that point,
because I know I interact with the students still to this day
at LSE Imperial UCL, and I know what that environment is like.
So did you, I've heard before someone mentioned to me in this
(11:04):
series about having your own personal board of directors, so
people who you can go to who don't have any other, who are
not involved in that environmentthat you can speak to and things
like that. Did you have anything like that
that gave you some confidence tokind of break break the mold a
little bit? Oh, it's a tough question.
(11:25):
It says tough a question as it is on like mentors, for example,
because for me, like that personal board of directors is
like a group of mentors who can advise you on, you know,
different aspects of your life might not just be on your
career, but maybe some personal choices you're making as well.
Right. I, I definitely had certain
(11:50):
people that I went to for advicewhen I was making big career
decisions. And I have to say there, there
are people in, you know, either bosses or ex bosses in, in my
previous roles before I was making a move to another part of
the bank, for example. And I felt, you know, their,
(12:11):
their insight and wisdom was very helpful because, you know,
they knew a bit more about making current moves, having
done these in their, in their careers themselves.
And they can give you a bit of that retrospective, which they
wouldn't have had at the time they were making those moves.
But a lot of it's also personal.So like, you know, my parents,
my dad for example, is very wiseman and just going to him and
(12:34):
he's always able to give me quite an unbiased view
sometimes, which is for me helpful.
So I think I combine all this. But at the end of the day, like
you are the one person making itthe decision that will affect
every day of your life. You know the job that you wake
up to get yourself to and you know, affecting your, your
(12:56):
balance, your routine, things like that.
You know where you live, where you set up your, your home base,
and in the end, it comes down toyou.
So you it it. I highly recommend taking all
the various advices that people you trust, people you know have
your best interests at heart into consideration.
(13:18):
But at the end of day, you make that choice and you have to make
peace with whatever choice you've made, knowing that that
the only person you can say has you know, can take
responsibility for that is yourself.
OK, that's great. And then to just to round up
this kind of section of the conversation having made these
(13:38):
different moves to different companies and roles, it's
something that I think a lot of people might be intimidated by a
little bit afraid of in general.And so I just wondered about how
you what's your process to upskill and adapt to new
environments? For me, I ask questions and I
(14:00):
take notes. I like writing things down
because I feel like I learned better that way.
My pet peeve is actually when someone asks me the same thing
they've asked me before and I'vealready explained it in
excruciating detail. So I try to do the same thing
when I'm learning something fromothers.
(14:20):
I take notes because I'm committed to learning and
absorbing. What Dev said, Similar to what
I've also mentioned to one of your earlier questions, is
getting my hands dirty and just doing the work that's been asked
is the best way to adapt to a new environment.
For example, when I joined Alliance Global Investors, I
(14:43):
wanted to learn how to structureblended finance transactions and
funds as that was a way to mobilize, you know, capital at
scale to emerging markets. And I wanted to be a part of
that. And my manager, day one, she
basically shared the entire suite of legal documentation for
one of our blended debt funds. I've never seen fund legal docs
(15:04):
before that state. As you said, you know, here you
go, you're working on this fund amendment.
And basically I took it and I just jumped into it and that's
how I got up to speed in quite ashort time.
I guess to say my advice to others is that, you know, find
what works for you. Maybe it's you're more of a
verbal listener. That's how you remember things.
So you talk to others and you absorb through listening, but I
(15:29):
think the more you throw yourself into it at the start,
the faster you overcome the learning curve.
OK, well, let's move on and let's talk a little bit on the
developing skills area as an extension of that.
And when you and I met for a coffee a few weeks ago, yeah,
you were telling me about something which I guess I never
(15:51):
really thought about, but makes absolute sense, which was a lot
of people are researching, say companies, which involves not
just financials, but management structures, things of that
nature. And you were talking about how
then you could take some of these learnings about the
analysis that you might be conducting in your work.
And then how actually can you apply that to internal teams and
(16:13):
work culture and the kind of blended nature of the learnings
from one could be transitioned into the other.
So I just wanted to kind of go back to that and get a bit more
of your your take on on that, that experience and how that
applies in your, your kind of current role.
Yeah, I, I think for me, that's more of when you talk about, you
(16:36):
know, looking at, you know, internal teams and looking at
companies and their work culturefor, for someone to be able to
analyze whether they want to move into that company or not
for, for their career. For me, it's, it's a lot about
culture. The culture of the place you are
working in is very, very important.
(16:58):
It can keep you there or it can drive you out.
So in many careers in finance, as, as you will know this,
Anthony, it involves like long hours and spending lots of time
at work with your team, with your other colleagues.
And that means there's a, you know, very high chance that you
as a person, your mood, your happiness levels will be
(17:20):
affected by the culture and the environment at the workplace.
Additionally, it's important to state that the culture within a
certain company is not homogeneous.
There may not be the exact same culture or style of working
across teams or departments in acompany.
And in fact, it can be quite, you know, stark in terms of
differences. So it's important before you
(17:44):
choose to work for a particular firm in a particular team to do
the, the, the research. You know, you look online, you
do the desktop research, but also you try to do a lot of the,
the, the type of research you can't get from just reading
articles. You know, to speak to, you have
(18:05):
to speak to as many relevant people who are from the team,
who have worked in that team, who have worked with that team
or even just generally from the company to try to get a better
picture of what you're getting into.
I mean, even now in transactions.
So if there's a particular sector I'm not very familiar
with, we speak to experts who are from that sector because
that sort of information you canget from someone who's lived
(18:27):
through that for like, you know,decades of their life is, is
quite valuable. And it's quite different to the
type of information you can get from just reading off, you know,
research articles online. So talking to people who have
lived that experience is very important.
And I think the last thing I'll say on it is that of course you
will never really know until youjoin, but at least you've made
(18:49):
an informed decision before you take the leap.
Just like, you know, with any investment, you never really
know if an investment is going to be like, you know, the best
investment of your life or maybenot.
But if you've shown that you've done your diligence process,
you've done your analysis the way that should be done, you
know, based on your investment process, your, your conviction
(19:11):
as well, you can stand by it. Then that's an informed
decision. And then you can go ahead,
taking the leap, making that decision, knowing you've done
all you could do. I've heard people say before as
well it's a particular person tofocus on.
Is The Who would be your managerand what type of progression or
(19:33):
activities as to people below that manager who've trodden the
path before you in those roles done?
Is that something you'd also advise?
Is kind of seeing what type of manager or leadership you'd be
working under as to a pre a somewhat piece of the puzzle,
not complete, but as a predictorof your potential development
within that role. I think that's definitely one of
(19:56):
the indicators you should look at because.
For me, I think part of the reason why I joined my current
role is because, you know, I wasreally inspired by my current
manager, who is my hiring managers.
And basically it turns out that she was inspired to join this
firm because of her hiring manager at the time, who is now
(20:20):
a group CIO. So basically, you know, we're
all women there. There was this, I think, sense
of like seeing someone, you know, so inspirational and
someone you really knew you could learn a lot from in that
team and your development would be somewhat shaped by them.
(20:42):
And you sometimes, you know, make that leap because you trust
the people that you'll be reported to.
So I've seen that and I've seen that for some of the colleagues
as well who have joined because they were interviewed or they
met the hiring manager during interviews and they were so
inspired by the stories and whatthey could do if they were to
(21:02):
join the firm and take on that role.
So I think that's actually superimportant.
I mean, it's not the only factorin the decision, but sometimes
it can be the factor that that causes you to take the leap and
and make a choice to join the firm.
OK. Well, that's something that I
know a number of students who will want to hear the response
(21:22):
to on the next question, which is you mentioned before about
off cycle internships. I think that's because where you
were, that's something that exists and you find it
particularly valuable. You're explaining to me before
about because you get to bit more time, bit more hands on
exposure and you get to see projects, transactions from kind
of end to end. But maybe something as an answer
(21:44):
that might appeal to a wider audience, and great to get your
insight, is about what attributes set the top interns
apart from just an average intern, so to speak.
Yeah. And to clarify, off cycle
internships here mean longer term internships, so those
lasting, you know, around 12 months rather than those eight
(22:07):
to 10 week types that you usually see for summer
internships. So my experience generally, and
I've worked with a lot of interns in my previous roles and
now in my current role, is that I find that the top interns are
hungry to learn. They are not afraid to take on a
task or a project or a transaction that is completely
(22:30):
foreign to them and learn through that process.
They also tend to ask for feedback after undertaking a
task for you. And you know, they know that
they are live there to learn andthey don't know everything yet,
but you know, that's OK. So they'll ask for, you know, a
lot of questions or do you know also for feedback on their
(22:53):
performance after having done something saying like, OK, look,
what could I have done better? Maybe I didn't do that so well.
Can I just check with you if that was OK, the way I replied,
etcetera, like reply to e-mail, things like that.
And I think that's super valuable because people, you
know, once you've asked the feedback, they tend to be a bit
more, you know, softer and more like constructive because
(23:15):
they're like, oh, wow, this person really just wants to
develop and learn. Like, it's great.
Let me share with you all the things that you can do to be a
better, to be better at this role and to build a career here,
if that's what you want it to be.
I also find that the best interns are proactive.
You know, they, they look to help you with any work tasks as
(23:37):
no task is deemed, you know, beneath them.
They know they will learn from anything they do at the firm,
especially if they're working with good teams.
So if you're looking to take on an internship, you know, you're
still studying or just graduatedin between courses and you're
looking to convert that, you know, internship into a full
(23:57):
time role as some of these long term internships can, can often
do it. Of course, it varies by firms,
but I recommend having and showing some of these attributes
that I mentioned earlier. It does go a long way.
OK, good stuff and let's let's move on and talk a little bit
more. We touched on it there work
culture, but want to dive into that and and leadership as a
(24:21):
concept as well. And one of the things that as
you were describing your career journey and the different
companies you've worked with andfor both sell side and buy side.
And I think this is like a feelslike a conundrum for a lot of
young people. They're like where do I begin,
do I transition, start one placeor the other, do I get pigeon
(24:42):
holed if I go for one or the other?
So on and so forth. But you having done both, I just
wondered what are the key differences in in skills and
mindset? Yeah.
So I'll comment very generally. And also I'll caveat that not
all firms are the same for my earlier comment regarding
culture, but based on my experience of the cell side more
(25:06):
generally and also speaking to, you know, peers in that space or
still in that space, sell side tends to have a higher focus on
presentation skill sets. I would say as it involves, you
know, selling or or pitching quite regularly.
If you're in a client facing role, even you know, if you're a
junior, you will be working on pitch decks, you know, for these
(25:29):
pitches and that involves knowing how to put together
presentations well. Or if you didn't know when you
enter the role, then you'll knowby the end of a few years there.
Whereas on the sales side, you know so resident buy side, you
know we can be more analytical Ithink and technically focused
(25:49):
for example because we are investing on behalf of our
clients and they can be retail or institutional investors.
But generally I find out you know, we are bound by the strong
sense of fiduciary duty and needto make sure that any investment
is sound and the risk return profile has been measured up
(26:10):
appropriately. We have skin in the game when we
make an investment. So having done your diligence
process properly, making sure that you are making in the right
decision per the investment guidelines, per what you think
your investor would like as partof this mandate, portfolio
diversification, etcetera, is super important for us.
(26:33):
To your next question, what should young professionals look
for when you know, assessing whether something is is, is the
right fit for them? Basically, I think you have to
ask a few questions and you know, one of them is whether the
company, that desk, the team will teach you what you want to
(26:53):
learn. Are they doing the things that
you want to learn about and do yourself?
And another thing is that you have to then look at the
company's values and the cultureof the team in which you're
applying for a role. And you know, early comment on
this still stands. Are you still talking to people,
etcetera. And one of the other parts of
(27:13):
that thing I would say is that, you know, after you've done all
these things, don't think too much about it.
Once you've done your initial scope, you know, initial
analysis of the job scope, the learning potential, culture, pay
and all kind of lines up for you, don't be afraid to take the
plunge and go for it. I would say nothing will line up
(27:34):
perfectly all the time. So don't wait for the perfect
role. Don't hold up your learning
process. Sounds a little bit like
investing, trying to pick the bottom of this falling market
for the I won't go there. So, so, so don't worry.
But that was very, very sound advice.
And something else that you mentioned to me before was you
(27:55):
emphasized the value of people in in an organization.
And I just wondered how can someone in their early career
cultivate strong relationships and find mentors to help
facilitate that that growth in their career?
It's a great question. So sometimes your firm will have
a formal mentoring program and you can sign up for those.
(28:19):
It doesn't hurt to, you know, atthe very least, even if you
don't connect with your mentor as well that's been chosen for
you as part of the program, it could increase your visibility
and increase your connections and network in the firm.
So I would say, you know, go forit if your firm has that.
Sometimes, you know, your mentorcan be a boss or an ex boss, as
(28:40):
I mentioned earlier, because they've, you know, actually seen
you work and they can vouch for your standards and your work
ethics and know how you think. But they just to be clear, they
inherently, if they're your current manager, they have a
conflict of interest because sometimes you know, your
(29:00):
development doesn't exactly lineup with the directional
trajectory of the team. So I would say you know that
sometimes isn't the the best place to look for a mentor.
However, they can generally giveyou quite constructive feedback
and also pointers on developmentbecause you know, they've worked
with you directly before. But otherwise, apart from these
(29:22):
ways, finding a mentor can happen quite organically.
So you can meet people at eventslike career recruitment events,
you catch up over coffee, you know, and then you build a
relationship quite organically that way.
And now, and something that I mentioned earlier as well, which
I'll re emphasize is that you can have mentors for different
(29:45):
aspects of your career. You don't need the 1 mentor to
be the only person to give you advice and then you follow that
to a tee. Different people can be more
useful in terms of their advice for different different parts of
of life and different parts of their career.
So that's one point. When you grow more senior, there
(30:07):
is also the concept of coaches which are there to help you for
development in a much more structured way.
But that's something that I think will become more useful
because it also costs, you know,bundling potential to spend on
this unless your firm sponsors it.
And but it will come more relevant around maybe the mid
(30:28):
career stage. OK.
So yeah, go ahead. Sorry.
Yeah, sorry, I just wanted to add one last point on it, which
I just thought about, just to summarize everything, is that I
wouldn't get hung up on the ideaof finding that one person to
call mentor, which I know some people do because you like, you
(30:49):
know, I need a mentor, I need a mentor.
But I would say just look at howyou can build relationships with
people who give you good advice.Generally just look to cultivate
these relationships. Don't need to put a label on it,
but you'll find that over time it's, you know, becoming
something more of a mentorship, although you don't need to call
(31:10):
it that. Yeah, no, that's really good
sound advice actually, because Ithink by putting a label on it,
you just feel this immense pressure to be like, right, I
have to find this. And everyone has this
preconceived idea of this kind of wise old person guiding you,
steering you through your professional and personal life.
But it's not always quite like that, you know.
(31:31):
OK. And then the, the last bit was
something which again, is to address somewhat a source of
anxiety, I think amongst students or those entering the
workforce, which is they feel like the decision they make now
will define them. And you know, given that your
(31:51):
your career that you've described up until this date, I
just wondered if you could talk about how career priorities
shift and is there kind of an idea that's for you, maybe not
for everyone, this kind of earlycareers sort of one to three
years, the more mid and then themore senior.
Plus you talked about coaching there when you start taking more
(32:13):
ownership over bigger teams and things like that.
So I wondered what advice you could give to someone just
starting out versus someone in their kind of mid career.
Yeah, if you're starting out, don't be afraid to cast the net
wide when considering a career pathway to follow.
You really do have, you know, a lot of time ahead to decide
(32:37):
what's the career path for you. So there's no need to rush into
one type of career only. I would say take time to figure
out what you want to do and you can do so by, you know,
experimenting with short stands,you know, internships, as we've
mentioned, you know, for example, looking back, I may
(32:57):
have wanted to keep my career choices open rather than going
straight into banking right after university.
Partly I did that, you know, because I had an offer already
at the end of my second year andI didn't have to think about
applying further. I like that role, etcetera.
But you know, looking back now, you know, 10 years, yeah,
actually coming to 10 years later, I've seen a variety of
(33:20):
people with non linear career trajectories who have done well
for themselves, you know, and ithasn't Hanford them from having
successful careers. And in fact, I think some of the
earlier life choices, which may have seemed less rational know
maybe they've moved abroad to take some time off but also
decided to study now language. It has completely enriched their
(33:43):
personal and professional experiences overall, which
probably has set them up for setthem up for success now.
So my advice is just take your time.
OK. Well, let's let's close by in
the final segment talking about impact investing and ESG, which
I know a number of people are inalways interested to hear more
(34:06):
about. And so you've worked in
sustainability and ESG across different investment scenarios,
so to speak. How do you see impact investing
evolving? And what opportunities exist for
young professionals interested in this space?
Because I think sometimes they find that a hard answer to find.
(34:27):
Yeah, impact investing space is a really exciting 1.
So looking more at the positive impact that companies can have
on the planet and on societies rather than just focusing on,
you know, companies managing their ESG downsides and negative
impacts on the natural world andsocial environment.
(34:48):
That's in general what I deem impact investing versus ESG
investing. To be clear, I think it that
vesting is one of the key areas that will continue to develop
and grow further and this will be more in the private markets
side of things I believe as typically the companies that
(35:08):
have this impact potential. So to generate these positive
impacts on the planet and the people, they are smaller than
the mid sized to large cap corporates who have publicly
listed in equity and bonds. These companies are usually like
relatively new, so about 5 to 10years of inception and they're
(35:30):
working on specific solutions that tackle real world
environmental and special socialchallenges.
So not necessarily at the size or maturity that you'll see in
the public market. So I believe that will be more
and that's why I mentioned it'llbe more on the private market
side of things. But the growth and I'm talking
(35:51):
about will likely be staggered across regions.
So for example, now Asia is lagging slightly behind Europe
and the US in terms of depth of the impact investing landscape.
But I feel the next five years it could look quite different
than private markets. Investment landscape could look
quite different. And that depends partly on
(36:12):
investor interest and also regulatory incentives.
So apart from, you know, pureplay and pet investing funds
right now, I'm also seeing ESG themed funds being quite
popular, especially those which are decarbonization and energy
transition focused. I also think that there is a big
(36:33):
focus of institutional investorson climate finance right now,
although that might also change depending on regulations and
certain jurisdictions. So something to watch more
generally overall. And just to answer the last bit
of your question, with this growth in sustainability and in
(36:54):
impact investing, there will likely also be a growth in roles
in this space. It could be more on the
investment side. So they're the typical skill
sets required of investment professionals who will be needed
apart from an inherent interest in sustainability and special
impact. But it also could be on rules
(37:15):
that would not have existed in the mainstream 15 years ago,
like ESG risk assessment and analysis, impact measurement,
impact reporting, ESD reporting.These types of roles would also
be needed. So this, you know, these could
be some of the the types of positions that young
(37:36):
professionals interested in impact investing could consider
outside of investment roles. Is there such a thing as an
internship that any companies you know have run in that
specific department? Or is it a case of a student
just acquiring those baseline skills like you mentioned?
There are definitely internshipsin these types of departments
(37:58):
and then non investment roles aswell.
And at Allen's Global Investors,we have that because we have an
empowers impact strategy team that does impact measurement and
impact management. And we do take on off cycle
interns there or father we've taken on someone who who is
learning in that space. So I'm sure other firms as well
(38:20):
who have impact investing units,we'll have internships if they
offer internships in general. So something to definitely look
out for and and take a look online.
You can type in impact investing, asset management
firms and I'm sure a couple willcome out including us.
Just finally on that subject matter, is there any available
(38:42):
good resource for impact investing like a podcast or a
section on a a major financial media outlet or anything like
that, that you look at that you could recommend?
For that one, not specifically in any sort of public news
(39:02):
sources, but there are like databases like the global impact
investing network. GIN does articles on impact
investing landscape, new privatemarkets as well does have a
section on impact investing. However, I believe those are not
always free. That could be a free trial, but
(39:25):
I think you do need a subscription.
So nothing I would say that I atleast followed that might be so
readily available. However, having said that, you
know, I might not have scoped the entire universe of, of
impact investing websites and news websites rather, and so
there could be more out there which I'm just not so familiar
(39:46):
with this stage. I did hear right, Jim is is OK
Yeah, mental note. All right, so to to finish the
conversation and I've been asking this in all of these in
this this kind of mini series isthat if you were to go back.
And talk to your younger self starting out.
(40:08):
Is there any advice you'd pass on to a 21 year old wiki?
I'll stick with 11 main one and it's that life and likewise your
career is not just about moving up a ladder in a linear fashion.
(40:30):
You know, I would say think about what you want to learn,
what you want to do, and don't be afraid to take the leaps,
even if it means that you'll be detracting from a more
traditional and leaner path if that is what you want to explore
and that is what you know would make you a richer person from an
experience perspective. So don't rush.
(40:53):
You have time. That's probably what I would
continue to say because I felt like I was always rushing.
I was used to get on to the nextthing, which might have partly
helped me well because I was very hungry to learn.
But you can be hungry to learn without, you know, feeling like
you are always in a rush. It's more also about your
(41:13):
perspective on things, and that transmits into the general
energy you give out to the world.
So I think that's what I would probably say to my younger self
starting out. OK, Ricky, thank you again.
It's been a real pleasure to host you.
Thank you. Thank you, Anthony.
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