December 18, 2025 • 32 mins
What does it really take to make the leap from analyst to portfolio manager at one of the world’s largest asset managers? In this episode, we sit down with Ji Young Park, Senior Portfolio Manager at Amundi, to explore her two-decade journey in the investment world.
Ji shares what the role of a PM truly entails, from navigating decision-making under uncertainty to balancing technical expertise with interpersonal communication. We discuss how to know when you're ready to make the transition from analyst to portfolio manager, and why tracking your investment ideas early in your career can be a powerful tool for growth.
Ji also offers candid reflections and advice for aspiring female leaders and underrepresented professionals in finance, making this a must-listen for anyone aiming to break into or grow within the asset management industry.
(00:00) Intro
(00:54) What a Portfolio Manager really does
(03:47) Getting comfortable with being wrong
(09:18) The analyst-to-PM path
(15:38) Managing stress & work-life balance
(19:15) DEI in finance today
(24:57) Breaking into asset management
(28:42) Mentor-mentee relationships that work
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Hello and welcome back to the Market Maker podcast, where I'm
joined by Ji Young Park, Senior Portfolio Manager at Mundi, one
of Europe's and the world's largest asset managers.
In this conversation, we're going to dive into the analyst
to PM LEAP and what advice Ji would give to young
professionals looking to break into the asset management
industry today. So Ji, how are you?
(00:22):
I'm very well. What about you?
Yeah, great. It's a Friday.
We're recording this. So, yeah, I mean, and you're in
the office, you said. I am, but it's not bad.
All good. All right.
Well, look, we've got plenty of questions here to to go through.
Perhaps we could start before wego into your career path and
(00:43):
your progression of the last 20 years or so, perhaps a little
bit more about your current role.
So senior portfolio manager, what does that involve and and
what skills are essential in that type of role?
So just to make the, you know, bring in the audience, I manage
an Asia X Japan fund and it's long only active equities to set
(01:05):
the groundwork. So I would say what portfolio
management entails, it's really I'm going to put this into two
buckets. 1 is core technical andanalytical skills and the second
buck bucket is interpersonal andsort of other competencies.
Within the first bucket of core technical skills, I think you
(01:26):
need to have financial acumen. So this includes understanding
business models, markets. The second is analytical skills.
So this is looking at financial statements, interpreting market
data and have like a firm understanding of valuation
criteria around those businesses.
The last thing that's in this bucket is just an understanding
(01:47):
of risk management and portfolioconstruction.
And then within then in the second component, which is the
interpersonal and other competencies, I think what I do
on a daily basis is really decision making.
So it's really looking at, you know, what is going on
day-to-day, you know, making decisions using evidence.
(02:09):
And this is mostly largely undersometimes great amount of
uncertainty and not really knowing the future.
So the second aspect to this is having good communication
skills, It's being able to kind of distill investment thesis in
a very simple way, speak to yourcolleagues and there's a fair
amount of debate for investmentsgo into portfolios, but it's
(02:31):
also engaging with your client base because they need to know
or want to know what it is that you've been doing.
And then I think also within this bucket, it's really working
on sort of self-awareness and itencompasses things like have the
ability to feel like you could be wrong at times, be curious,
(02:51):
don't you know, don't be afraid to ask questions and also be
comfortable with being wrong. Because I think in these
markets, even though you think you might know something, it's
often the case you don't. Because once you take that
little bit of information and you combine it to everything
else, it could just be the wrongthesis or you could be right for
(03:11):
reasons that you didn't even know.
So I think if you combine those two buckets, those are the core
skills. Just just on that last point
that getting used to being wrongbecause I think a lot of you
know, a lot of the academic process probably teaches you of
a framework of success and it's very clear this is what an A
(03:35):
looks like or AB grade or and soforth.
But in markets a lot of the timeyou are wrong.
So how, how did how did you acclimatize to that as a as a
process? So I think it's probably one of
the hardest things to adjust to initially.
I think you you do get better with time and it's really time.
(03:56):
And I think if you focus on the wins that you have versus the
things that don't go right, thatsometimes makes it, you know, a
bit easier. But I think if you just, I think
it was probably Anthony Bolton that told me when I met him at
one of these larger conferences,you only have to be right 51% of
the time in investing and that is often good enough.
(04:20):
Sometimes you want to be more right than that, but 51% is
often, you know, excellent. So I think it's just wrapping
your head around the fact that you're not going to know
everything and just getting comfortable with sometimes
you're going to be right, sometimes you're going to be
wrong. But it is quite hard initially
to kind of wrap your head aroundthat.
(04:42):
Just before we move on to the next question, the other thing
you were talking about was abouttalking to clients and
presenting ideas and things likethat.
Because I think sometimes when Italk to students, they, they,
they seem to think that because they don't really different PM
is there at the controls making decisions all of the time,
managing at to be their portfolio, not actually
(05:02):
understanding. There's a lot of communication
debate with the team, like you said, about stress testing
ideas, sharing intelligence, talking to clients, updating
them, where you're at. What is actually the balance
between the two? I know it's not always probably
a constant. So how much of that
communication aspect, let's say internal and external, is there
in a common day-to-day week to week?
(05:26):
So the internal communication isprobably 80% of the job because
it's on a day-to-day basis. I work with other portfolio
managers and we are fortunate tohave analysts that work that
look at specific sectors. And so I speak to them almost
every single day because I thinkwhat people and we will get on
(05:47):
to this a bit is that you are using sort of mosaic theory to
to do some of these investments.You are putting together lots of
different types bits of information together to come up
with an investment thesis as to why you know you might want to
buy the stock. So it could be because of the
company's market position and the earnings will be very
(06:11):
consistent over a type of period.
It could be because this is the only company that you can play
like a certain theme in. There are many, many reasons why
you might want to buy a certain stock, but it's important to
kind of talk to your colleagues that may or may you know, that
might have more information thanyou know, something more than
(06:31):
you and again, to stress test whether or not this is a good
investment to put in your portfolio.
And then on the client side. So I think some clients want to
be want to have communication much more often.
Other times I meet with clients quarterly to explain what it is
that we're doing, how our performance is.
(06:53):
So it just really depends on thetype of client that you that you
are speaking to. OK.
So we're going to move on now tocareer path and, and progression
and having spoken to you and, and obviously looking at your
LinkedIn, things like that. You began your career as an, as
an equity analyst. And so a lot of people aspire to
be ultimately A portfolio manager might not completely
(07:16):
understand the pathway to get there.
So is starting as an equity analyst the common route for for
people to get to a PM seat? Yes, I think so, But I caveat
this, but it really depends on the firm that you work with.
So for me, being an equity analyst, I got to understand a
lot of different sectors. And within those sectors I also
(07:39):
got to understand, you know, a number of nuances.
And I think in my career it was sort of important that I did
because as when you become a portfolio manager, you're
knocking together quite a lot ofthose stocks and you have to
understand many of those underlying characteristics.
So having had the time to kind of do deep dives into the
(08:01):
companies and the sectors, I think is really, really useful
for being a portfolio manager. And then I think the other step
that helped when I was an analyst, I was also asked to, in
addition to to understanding stocks, I was given a country to
analyze when I switched into emerging markets.
And I think understanding, like having a very deep understanding
(08:24):
of macroeconomics as well as microeconomics again helps you
put different types of sectors into context.
So I think having that really solid foundation really helps
you to become like a better portfolio manager.
And then having spoken to so I did a lot of work with the
(08:46):
diversity projects program here in the in the UK is working with
these, you know, these amazing women who could be anywhere from
three to five years in their career to to more.
But at looking to make that transition, that kind of leap
from analyst 2:00 PM. And So what do you think was key
to your own transition and and how does one identify whether
(09:08):
it's the right move for them? Right.
You could stay as an analyst. I'm assuming you don't have to
switch, but yeah. So just some more insights on
that from your perspective wouldbe be great.
So I think as my career progressed, I also was a sector
PM, so it meant that I managed asleeve within a greater
(09:28):
portfolio and it was my sector. And once I did that, I really, I
just really liked just having greater input into the decision
making process and I felt that Icould deal with the stress of
being super accountable for the decisions that I was making.
The second aspect for that for me was I really liked the
(09:52):
entrepreneurial aspect of being a portfolio manager because you
are given a portfolio. So it is like having a business
and then you do need to throw that book of business.
And that really appealed to me because you are tapping into
different sort of skill sets. So before I sort of made the
transition, I was also head of research.
So it meant that I was implementing, designing and
(10:15):
implementing an investment process to be rolled out into
two funds. And again, I really enjoyed
doing that and then working withpeople, training with people,
training of people. And I just thought if this is if
I could do all of these things, I do really want to be a
portfolio manager so that I havegreater accountability and
responsibility. And I think it's some firms it's
(10:37):
harder to make that transition, which is why I think it's useful
to understand what the track is.Some funds want you to stay on a
research like equity research track if that's what you have
picked. Other firms make that transition
a little bit more simple. And so as I started to kind of
think about this, I started talking to a lot more people.
(11:01):
I think one of the key things that I think you have to do is
to kind of put your hands up andsay this is the type of role
that I would like to jump to andthink about ways to how to move
into that role if your firm isn't set up to make that
transition or help you make thattransition for you.
So I moved into portfolio management because I had worked
(11:21):
with the team that I work with right now.
And one thing I forgot to mention is when you are an
analyst, it's really, really important that you have a track
record and that you keep a trackof your own stock calls and
really understand like what wentright for you, what went went
wrong for you and how you sort of think about that as your own
(11:45):
investment process. So when my old colleagues
wanted, APMI had spoken to them and I made the transition and
moved firms to make that transition to be APM.
Yeah, I guess that tangible evidence makes a great deal of
sense in terms of you having theconviction, having that
documented evidence of the callsthat you've made, the results,
(12:09):
the iterative process and refinement and hopefully
performance improvement over time.
So I guess it's almost the leap becoming a bit more data-driven
in terms of just feelings, in terms of I'm ready.
Yes. And I, I can't stress that
enough. If your firm doesn't give you
like some firms do give you whatyou have done as an analyst.
(12:32):
And so you're able to kind of port that if, if it's the case
that your firm does not give youthe underlying numbers for you
to compute that track record. I always think it's very
important to keep a spreadsheet of the investments that you have
made, the ones that have gone right, the ones that you that
have gone wrong. It really just helps you be a
better investor. But then also, if you are
(12:54):
looking to make this transition,you do have evidence of what you
have done. Cool.
All right. Well, we'll move on to the next
section, which is the industry evolution and some market kind
of insights. So 2 questions in this area.
The first one of which is what do people outside of the
industry often misunderstand about the role of a portfolio
(13:15):
manager first? So I think one of the biggest
things or I think that many, I think that many people under
appreciate is just how all consuming the job is.
And I know that sounds very imbalanced, but I will just give
you an example of this. I recently went shopping for new
running trainers and I tried on a pair of hookahs and I had
(13:38):
never really worn a pair of hookahs because I I've worn
ASICS, but I wanted to see what else is out there.
And as I put these trainers on, I thought they were pretty
comfortable. But then my head sprung to hang
on. There's a lot of people in this
place who is making these hookahtrainers.
And so then when I got back intothe office, I looked up or I
tried to find if there was a company that we could invest in
(13:58):
that makes these hookah trainers.
There is, it's based in time, but it's that is the kind of all
consuming funny aspect of this job in that you do sort of start
thinking about things outside ofthe office that pertain to work.
And I think people do under appreciate just how much you can
(14:19):
think about work sometimes outside of the office in little
ways like that. I think the second thing that
people underestimate is the speed at which you have to
learn. So one day I could be learning
about where it's really teachingyourself, you know, about a
pharma company, and then the next day I'm learning about gold
mining, gold miners. And so I think you have to be
(14:42):
comfortable with not feeling like you need to get a PhD and
every single thing that you lookat, again, it comes with
experience, but just knowing or just trying to understand, like
how much is enough for you to actually make a good decision.
And again, it goes back to what you'd asked earlier.
I think communicating and working with people is really,
(15:03):
really helpful in getting up to speed very quickly in the things
that you need to, you know, lookat from an investment
perspective. So I guess the second question
is kind of an extension of this which you've kind of already
semi alluded to, which is the marketplace can be quite
volatile. You said the work can be quite
(15:23):
all consuming. So this balance, this kind of
management of stress, the work life kind of balance in itself.
What's your kind of view or approach to that so that you can
remain high performing so to speak?
Yeah. So although it is all consuming,
I've really tried not for it notto be all consuming.
(15:44):
So one of the things that I really like to do is exercise,
and I've always been a runner and now I've been incorporating
a lot more other things like weight lifting and yoga into my
exercise regime. But I think just having like an
hour a day where you're focusingon other things does do a world
(16:05):
of wonder and it helps you sort of like achieve that that
balance. And then on weekends, I really
try to have a lot of downtime and kind of just be away from
the phone. So I have a dog and every
Saturday and Sunday morning my family and I and our dog do long
(16:26):
walks. And I think during that time we
have a no phone policy. And usually the walks or two
hours to three hours long, it just gives us time to kind of be
together as a family, but also just enjoying nature and just
being, you know, outside and, you know, doing any form of
movement I think really helps. I know, I know it's a very case
(16:47):
by case and the geography of different companies can dictate
this from culture perspective. But how, how hybrid is the work
of a portfolio manager? Are you in the office every day,
or is it a little bit around thenecessity of what's happening at
that point in time, or what doesthat actually look like?
So my firm still has a very flexible working policy.
We are three days in the office,2 days out of the office.
(17:11):
Some weeks I can do that, some weeks I can be two days from
home, three days in the office. Quite high.
Frequently I'm four days in the office, one day from home some
weeks and five days in the office.
But I think having that flexibility does help.
I think for me the reason why I'm in the office is because I
have a lot of in person meetingswith companies that come
(17:31):
through. But I can work from home because
quite a lot of our team is not necessarily in London.
We have offices in Paris, we have offices in Singapore,
Malaysia, Korea, India as well as China.
So all of us do communicate quite a lot digitally.
(17:53):
So if it's team based stuff, I don't necessarily need to be in
the office, but it's more because I'm actually meeting
with companies. Cool makes makes makes sense.
And so the next section I wantedto talk to you about is
something I know you're you're passionate about is diversity
and inclusion in in our industry.
And there's two questions on this.
(18:14):
The first one was around you started your career in in 2001
and actually on that note, what month of the year did you start
in 2001 then, because obviously that was quite a volatile year
for for the marketplace. Was it at the beginning or the
end of 01 when you when you started?
Can I just clarify this? I started in 1996 but I moved to
(18:38):
the UK in 2001 and I moved to the UK in 2001 in March.
So on that point, yeah, was given the so 1996.
So just trying to think of the amount of change you must have
seen like over the 30 year odd period.
(18:59):
So how has that changed particularly as a as a woman in
finance? I mean, I'd imagine what it's
like today was probably quite a lot different from what it was
back then. Is that actually true as a
statement? So I have to just give you a bit
of background on this. I started off on the sell side,
(19:20):
which is sort of investment banking, but equity research on
the sell side. And then I moved to the buy side
in 2007. So I would say in the earlier
years, I didn't notice much difference between the gap
between men and women. I actually don't know what the
stats are in terms of the intakefor for men and women, but I
(19:43):
think what I do notice now is that, well, maybe it's just
useful. There was a recent article in
the Times that just kind of, andit's a 10 year study that
they've done. And so this is more for buy
side, but women now only accountfor close to 13% of UK fund
managers. This is only slightly up from
(20:06):
12.5 the year before. And this is versus 10% over the
10 year period where they've conducted the survey.
So I, I think, you know, there has been some progression on the
buy side, but not enough, not enough, like just not as, as
(20:26):
much as one would have hoped. It seems like we are, the
industry is very good at gettingwomen to join the industry, not
as good as retaining women. So I think the stats here are as
the rate of charter or female for female PMS rose to 44% and
this is just 30% for men. So there is something going on
(20:48):
where we do lose a lot of women sort of middle to late career
and fund management. And I think it's very hard to
kind of just pinpoint 1 area, but I think, you know,
responsibilities change, some women want to change industries.
But I think what is happening maybe at the senior level is as
(21:08):
there are fewer women that are senior, there aren't that many
women that are left to kind of advocate for each other.
And it becomes quite imbalanced because I think in this survey,
they also mentioned that almost 80% of funds now continue to be
run by men and male dominated teams.
So again, like if there are senior positions that are coming
(21:29):
up and there isn't someone you know, advocating for you, it's
much harder I think to get into those senior roles.
That could be one reason. It's not the only reason, but I
would say again, like I didn't notice that much change or that
much difference when I was earlier on in my career.
It has somewhat changed as I became more senior in my roles.
(21:55):
And just kind of tied into that then we've spoken before you and
I about the lack of racial diversity in the UK financial
kind of industry. What I just wondered, what has
your own experience been? I mean, you've been an American
coming here as well to the UK toadd in another layer of
complexity to it. But yeah, kind of what what
needs to change for them that you feel for better
(22:18):
representation and support for those types of communities?
So when I was becoming more senior, I definitely was looking
up to see if there were role models or, you know, mentors or
allies that I could sort of find.
And it was quite difficult week for me in the UK to find those
people. I had more luck in the US and
(22:40):
obviously in Asia. So I was able to kind of speak
to those people, you know, usingmy sort of global network.
But I think in the UK, one big thing that I think I've talked
to you about in the past is really the inclusion aspect.
But I wish firms would do more, but that I wish minorities would
do more for each other. So I think here it's really
(23:04):
we're so few in numbers, I thinkwe can help each other out.
That would be really, really helpful to being very open to,
you know, minorities across the board to keep or to retain
people in the industry and to help them along.
I think it's really helpful. But I think for companies, I
(23:25):
mean it's really unfortunate that some of these DEI programs
have gone away. But even if there isn't a
company wide program, but for individuals to kind of think
about inclusivity, it is really,I guess I went to a diversity
training and it was really aboutlike, you know, look around at
your own dinner table and if youonly see one color, think about
(23:47):
how that feels and try to bring more people into, you know, of
different backgrounds into your table to have those discussions
because you do get more diversity of thought.
You do get different perspectives.
You will learn something that you probably, you know, didn't,
didn't learn or sorry, didn't know.
And I think if you know, individuals can work on just
(24:10):
including people more that will that will definitely help.
But again, I don't, I don't have, you know, a concrete
answer because I think it's probably due to many things.
Yeah, Yeah. This could quite easy become a
different whole new podcast series.
But one of the things then that I wanted to finish on was really
(24:34):
tapping into your your experience that we've just
mentioned. It's been so far reaching that
there's probably some great Nuggets of kind of wisdom here
for for largely our community who tend to be in their early
career or student. So one of three for the first
one up. What advice would you give to
young professionals trying to break in firstly to to asset
(24:56):
management? Yeah.
So one thing I would say is to have a growth mindset, be
curious, ask questions, don't beafraid to learn, try your
hardest not to be afraid to be wrong.
And then I guess the second thing is kind of research the
positions that you want and research the firms that you
(25:17):
want. So I think what I do, being a
long only investor is quite different than someone who wants
to work at a quant fund or a hedge fund.
For me, it's really about like understanding the business
models, like taking a very, you know, a longer term view of how
these companies will be. But for some hedge funds, their
(25:38):
risk parameters are quite different from mine.
They can take a shorter term view.
And then on the quant side, it'sa very, very different skill
set. So, you know, like, I think as
as, as someone that's going intothis industry, they should try
to think about like what resonates with them and they can
make the switch. Some firms, some firms do want
(26:04):
like on the coin side, they do definitely want people that have
had a math background. So if you know, if you have an
English background, that might it might be more challenging to
move into a quant role. So I think it's useful for the
for the person to do quite a bitof research on that.
And then the last thing is startinvesting.
It doesn't have to be real money.
It could be again, on, you know,a piece of paper or you know,
(26:28):
however you might keep a note. But it's picking a company,
going through what you think arethe reasons why you think this
is a good investment and write down the share price of when you
wanted to put money in and trackit.
I think by doing that it gives you a very good understanding of
what you got right, what you gotwrong, the parameters that you
(26:50):
might think about and look at for what makes a good company.
And it's almost like you're building that process then that
you earlier said you're going toutilize later for that switch,
but could be in several years down the line to give you the
confidence and the evidence to go into the PM role.
(27:10):
Yeah. And it also allows you to ask
different kinds of questions, right?
Because having done that, you will have understood like, OK, I
thought the company would actually make more money in this
and they haven't. Why?
And when you work with people, you could also leverage more of
their own experience as to what you might have gotten right and
(27:31):
what you might have gotten wrong.
But if you try to start it when you do, when you start in this
industry, it's quite hard because you're learning so many
different things at the same time.
Cool. OK.
And then 2, two more to go. So this one is about giving
yourself one piece of advice. If you were starting in finance,
if that was the case, what wouldit be?
(27:53):
I would say try to work for people that you could really
learn from and related to this, find really good mentors and
allies. OK, you mentioned that word
mentor. So, so mentor.
We, we, we spoke about this whenwe met a few weeks ago for a
coffee. A lot of students get told you
(28:17):
should, you should seek out a mentor.
The valuable relationship that you can have with with a mentor,
but no one actually really drills into.
I think a lot of people talk about how to maybe source or
find a mentor, but how do you utilize that relationship in a
harmonious and effective way? So the mentor and mentee
relationship. So what does?
(28:38):
What would that look like to you?
So I think this is mostly from the mentee side first, which is
I think try to find someone thatyou can talk to because you are
asking them for advice, right? Or I would hope that you're
asking for them for advice and sharing things with them.
So I think the second thing is being you have to find the
(29:02):
person that you could speak to because you are going to be, you
know, vulnerable with them. You are going to potentially
have to say to them like, look, I have this problem that I'm
trying to solve. Could you sit down with me for a
few days or a few minutes and discuss it?
And again, it's really, I would say that relationship should be
driven by the mentee. So when you book the time with
(29:24):
your mentor, you know, come prepared, have two or three
questions that you want to get through and you know, be
prepared to kind of follow up with those questions.
I would say that is like a very good way to kind of start that
relationship. And then it will just be a lot
easier because you can you will have established A rapport with
(29:46):
that person. But I think it's the worst when
you find a person and they have to pull things out of you.
So I think it's a much beneficial relationship if you
come prepared. There are talking points and
discussion points, and then you can go away and think about
things and then come back and continue that discussion with
(30:06):
the person. And then there are, you know,
there are a few senior people that listen to the show and
there are lots of other people. We, we often get people like
architects, lawyers. And so it's quite a wide range
of in our community on the podcast specifically, what would
you say with mentoring in general for them?
(30:28):
I mean, if you've mentored someone yourself, what have you
got out of that process from your side, do you think?
So I actually learned a lot fromthe people that I met to work,
asked a lot of questions that are that are in the workplace
that others around you might be afraid to ask.
(30:49):
And so I think if from a mental perspective, I think trying to
approach it with an open mind, you know, as possible.
And also there is a generationalgap sometimes.
And I think that generational gap when you are in this mentor
relationship is really useful because it really gives you a
perspective into how someone else that is very different from
(31:10):
you thinks and, you know, the things that they might be going
through and the challenges that they have in, you know, in their
organization and in their role. Yeah, I definitely think I was
sat on a call just a few hours ago with some students who had
no programming knowledge and hadcreated some incredible time
(31:32):
efficient applications within the financial workspace.
So mainly kind of back mid office type functions, which
could be you can make those efficiency gains, but it was
amazing. And these are people who are
just kind of regular finance students, but have that that,
you know, they're the native AI kind of generation if you like.
(31:54):
And then, yeah, learn so much. It's incredible.
So totally agree with. I just think the way the world
is going, the more you could learn from each other, the
better, you know, the better offwe are.
I mean, we can't have the machines take over the world,
right? But we can certainly work with
people and utilize these machines to just help us be
(32:17):
better. All right, well, that's that's
the end. So thank you so much for giving
up your time. Really appreciate it.
And yeah, wishing you all the best and hopefully catch up
soon. Thank you so much, Anthony for
having me.
Hello and welcome back to the Market Maker podcast, where I'm
joined by Ji Young Park, Senior Portfolio Manager at Mundi, one
of Europe's and the world's largest asset managers.
In this conversation, we're going to dive into the analyst
to PM LEAP and what advice Ji would give to young
professionals looking to break into the asset management
industry today. So Ji, how are you?
(00:22):
I'm very well. What about you?
Yeah, great. It's a Friday.
We're recording this. So, yeah, I mean, and you're in
the office, you said. I am, but it's not bad.
All good. All right.
Well, look, we've got plenty of questions here to to go through.
Perhaps we could start before wego into your career path and
(00:43):
your progression of the last 20 years or so, perhaps a little
bit more about your current role.
So senior portfolio manager, what does that involve and and
what skills are essential in that type of role?
So just to make the, you know, bring in the audience, I manage
an Asia X Japan fund and it's long only active equities to set
(01:05):
the groundwork. So I would say what portfolio
management entails, it's really I'm going to put this into two
buckets. 1 is core technical andanalytical skills and the second
buck bucket is interpersonal andsort of other competencies.
Within the first bucket of core technical skills, I think you
(01:26):
need to have financial acumen. So this includes understanding
business models, markets. The second is analytical skills.
So this is looking at financial statements, interpreting market
data and have like a firm understanding of valuation
criteria around those businesses.
The last thing that's in this bucket is just an understanding
(01:47):
of risk management and portfolioconstruction.
And then within then in the second component, which is the
interpersonal and other competencies, I think what I do
on a daily basis is really decision making.
So it's really looking at, you know, what is going on
day-to-day, you know, making decisions using evidence.
(02:09):
And this is mostly largely undersometimes great amount of
uncertainty and not really knowing the future.
So the second aspect to this is having good communication
skills, It's being able to kind of distill investment thesis in
a very simple way, speak to yourcolleagues and there's a fair
amount of debate for investmentsgo into portfolios, but it's
(02:31):
also engaging with your client base because they need to know
or want to know what it is that you've been doing.
And then I think also within this bucket, it's really working
on sort of self-awareness and itencompasses things like have the
ability to feel like you could be wrong at times, be curious,
(02:51):
don't you know, don't be afraid to ask questions and also be
comfortable with being wrong. Because I think in these
markets, even though you think you might know something, it's
often the case you don't. Because once you take that
little bit of information and you combine it to everything
else, it could just be the wrongthesis or you could be right for
(03:11):
reasons that you didn't even know.
So I think if you combine those two buckets, those are the core
skills. Just just on that last point
that getting used to being wrongbecause I think a lot of you
know, a lot of the academic process probably teaches you of
a framework of success and it's very clear this is what an A
(03:35):
looks like or AB grade or and soforth.
But in markets a lot of the timeyou are wrong.
So how, how did how did you acclimatize to that as a as a
process? So I think it's probably one of
the hardest things to adjust to initially.
I think you you do get better with time and it's really time.
(03:56):
And I think if you focus on the wins that you have versus the
things that don't go right, thatsometimes makes it, you know, a
bit easier. But I think if you just, I think
it was probably Anthony Bolton that told me when I met him at
one of these larger conferences,you only have to be right 51% of
the time in investing and that is often good enough.
(04:20):
Sometimes you want to be more right than that, but 51% is
often, you know, excellent. So I think it's just wrapping
your head around the fact that you're not going to know
everything and just getting comfortable with sometimes
you're going to be right, sometimes you're going to be
wrong. But it is quite hard initially
to kind of wrap your head aroundthat.
(04:42):
Just before we move on to the next question, the other thing
you were talking about was abouttalking to clients and
presenting ideas and things likethat.
Because I think sometimes when Italk to students, they, they,
they seem to think that because they don't really different PM
is there at the controls making decisions all of the time,
managing at to be their portfolio, not actually
(05:02):
understanding. There's a lot of communication
debate with the team, like you said, about stress testing
ideas, sharing intelligence, talking to clients, updating
them, where you're at. What is actually the balance
between the two? I know it's not always probably
a constant. So how much of that
communication aspect, let's say internal and external, is there
in a common day-to-day week to week?
(05:26):
So the internal communication isprobably 80% of the job because
it's on a day-to-day basis. I work with other portfolio
managers and we are fortunate tohave analysts that work that
look at specific sectors. And so I speak to them almost
every single day because I thinkwhat people and we will get on
(05:47):
to this a bit is that you are using sort of mosaic theory to
to do some of these investments.You are putting together lots of
different types bits of information together to come up
with an investment thesis as to why you know you might want to
buy the stock. So it could be because of the
company's market position and the earnings will be very
(06:11):
consistent over a type of period.
It could be because this is the only company that you can play
like a certain theme in. There are many, many reasons why
you might want to buy a certain stock, but it's important to
kind of talk to your colleagues that may or may you know, that
might have more information thanyou know, something more than
(06:31):
you and again, to stress test whether or not this is a good
investment to put in your portfolio.
And then on the client side. So I think some clients want to
be want to have communication much more often.
Other times I meet with clients quarterly to explain what it is
that we're doing, how our performance is.
(06:53):
So it just really depends on thetype of client that you that you
are speaking to. OK.
So we're going to move on now tocareer path and, and progression
and having spoken to you and, and obviously looking at your
LinkedIn, things like that. You began your career as an, as
an equity analyst. And so a lot of people aspire to
be ultimately A portfolio manager might not completely
(07:16):
understand the pathway to get there.
So is starting as an equity analyst the common route for for
people to get to a PM seat? Yes, I think so, But I caveat
this, but it really depends on the firm that you work with.
So for me, being an equity analyst, I got to understand a
lot of different sectors. And within those sectors I also
(07:39):
got to understand, you know, a number of nuances.
And I think in my career it was sort of important that I did
because as when you become a portfolio manager, you're
knocking together quite a lot ofthose stocks and you have to
understand many of those underlying characteristics.
So having had the time to kind of do deep dives into the
(08:01):
companies and the sectors, I think is really, really useful
for being a portfolio manager. And then I think the other step
that helped when I was an analyst, I was also asked to, in
addition to to understanding stocks, I was given a country to
analyze when I switched into emerging markets.
And I think understanding, like having a very deep understanding
(08:24):
of macroeconomics as well as microeconomics again helps you
put different types of sectors into context.
So I think having that really solid foundation really helps
you to become like a better portfolio manager.
And then having spoken to so I did a lot of work with the
(08:46):
diversity projects program here in the in the UK is working with
these, you know, these amazing women who could be anywhere from
three to five years in their career to to more.
But at looking to make that transition, that kind of leap
from analyst 2:00 PM. And So what do you think was key
to your own transition and and how does one identify whether
(09:08):
it's the right move for them? Right.
You could stay as an analyst. I'm assuming you don't have to
switch, but yeah. So just some more insights on
that from your perspective wouldbe be great.
So I think as my career progressed, I also was a sector
PM, so it meant that I managed asleeve within a greater
(09:28):
portfolio and it was my sector. And once I did that, I really, I
just really liked just having greater input into the decision
making process and I felt that Icould deal with the stress of
being super accountable for the decisions that I was making.
The second aspect for that for me was I really liked the
(09:52):
entrepreneurial aspect of being a portfolio manager because you
are given a portfolio. So it is like having a business
and then you do need to throw that book of business.
And that really appealed to me because you are tapping into
different sort of skill sets. So before I sort of made the
transition, I was also head of research.
So it meant that I was implementing, designing and
(10:15):
implementing an investment process to be rolled out into
two funds. And again, I really enjoyed
doing that and then working withpeople, training with people,
training of people. And I just thought if this is if
I could do all of these things, I do really want to be a
portfolio manager so that I havegreater accountability and
responsibility. And I think it's some firms it's
(10:37):
harder to make that transition, which is why I think it's useful
to understand what the track is.Some funds want you to stay on a
research like equity research track if that's what you have
picked. Other firms make that transition
a little bit more simple. And so as I started to kind of
think about this, I started talking to a lot more people.
(11:01):
I think one of the key things that I think you have to do is
to kind of put your hands up andsay this is the type of role
that I would like to jump to andthink about ways to how to move
into that role if your firm isn't set up to make that
transition or help you make thattransition for you.
So I moved into portfolio management because I had worked
(11:21):
with the team that I work with right now.
And one thing I forgot to mention is when you are an
analyst, it's really, really important that you have a track
record and that you keep a trackof your own stock calls and
really understand like what wentright for you, what went went
wrong for you and how you sort of think about that as your own
(11:45):
investment process. So when my old colleagues
wanted, APMI had spoken to them and I made the transition and
moved firms to make that transition to be APM.
Yeah, I guess that tangible evidence makes a great deal of
sense in terms of you having theconviction, having that
documented evidence of the callsthat you've made, the results,
(12:09):
the iterative process and refinement and hopefully
performance improvement over time.
So I guess it's almost the leap becoming a bit more data-driven
in terms of just feelings, in terms of I'm ready.
Yes. And I, I can't stress that
enough. If your firm doesn't give you
like some firms do give you whatyou have done as an analyst.
(12:32):
And so you're able to kind of port that if, if it's the case
that your firm does not give youthe underlying numbers for you
to compute that track record. I always think it's very
important to keep a spreadsheet of the investments that you have
made, the ones that have gone right, the ones that you that
have gone wrong. It really just helps you be a
better investor. But then also, if you are
(12:54):
looking to make this transition,you do have evidence of what you
have done. Cool.
All right. Well, we'll move on to the next
section, which is the industry evolution and some market kind
of insights. So 2 questions in this area.
The first one of which is what do people outside of the
industry often misunderstand about the role of a portfolio
(13:15):
manager first? So I think one of the biggest
things or I think that many, I think that many people under
appreciate is just how all consuming the job is.
And I know that sounds very imbalanced, but I will just give
you an example of this. I recently went shopping for new
running trainers and I tried on a pair of hookahs and I had
(13:38):
never really worn a pair of hookahs because I I've worn
ASICS, but I wanted to see what else is out there.
And as I put these trainers on, I thought they were pretty
comfortable. But then my head sprung to hang
on. There's a lot of people in this
place who is making these hookahtrainers.
And so then when I got back intothe office, I looked up or I
tried to find if there was a company that we could invest in
(13:58):
that makes these hookah trainers.
There is, it's based in time, but it's that is the kind of all
consuming funny aspect of this job in that you do sort of start
thinking about things outside ofthe office that pertain to work.
And I think people do under appreciate just how much you can
(14:19):
think about work sometimes outside of the office in little
ways like that. I think the second thing that
people underestimate is the speed at which you have to
learn. So one day I could be learning
about where it's really teachingyourself, you know, about a
pharma company, and then the next day I'm learning about gold
mining, gold miners. And so I think you have to be
(14:42):
comfortable with not feeling like you need to get a PhD and
every single thing that you lookat, again, it comes with
experience, but just knowing or just trying to understand, like
how much is enough for you to actually make a good decision.
And again, it goes back to what you'd asked earlier.
I think communicating and working with people is really,
(15:03):
really helpful in getting up to speed very quickly in the things
that you need to, you know, lookat from an investment
perspective. So I guess the second question
is kind of an extension of this which you've kind of already
semi alluded to, which is the marketplace can be quite
volatile. You said the work can be quite
(15:23):
all consuming. So this balance, this kind of
management of stress, the work life kind of balance in itself.
What's your kind of view or approach to that so that you can
remain high performing so to speak?
Yeah. So although it is all consuming,
I've really tried not for it notto be all consuming.
(15:44):
So one of the things that I really like to do is exercise,
and I've always been a runner and now I've been incorporating
a lot more other things like weight lifting and yoga into my
exercise regime. But I think just having like an
hour a day where you're focusingon other things does do a world
(16:05):
of wonder and it helps you sort of like achieve that that
balance. And then on weekends, I really
try to have a lot of downtime and kind of just be away from
the phone. So I have a dog and every
Saturday and Sunday morning my family and I and our dog do long
(16:26):
walks. And I think during that time we
have a no phone policy. And usually the walks or two
hours to three hours long, it just gives us time to kind of be
together as a family, but also just enjoying nature and just
being, you know, outside and, you know, doing any form of
movement I think really helps. I know, I know it's a very case
(16:47):
by case and the geography of different companies can dictate
this from culture perspective. But how, how hybrid is the work
of a portfolio manager? Are you in the office every day,
or is it a little bit around thenecessity of what's happening at
that point in time, or what doesthat actually look like?
So my firm still has a very flexible working policy.
We are three days in the office,2 days out of the office.
(17:11):
Some weeks I can do that, some weeks I can be two days from
home, three days in the office. Quite high.
Frequently I'm four days in the office, one day from home some
weeks and five days in the office.
But I think having that flexibility does help.
I think for me the reason why I'm in the office is because I
have a lot of in person meetingswith companies that come
(17:31):
through. But I can work from home because
quite a lot of our team is not necessarily in London.
We have offices in Paris, we have offices in Singapore,
Malaysia, Korea, India as well as China.
So all of us do communicate quite a lot digitally.
(17:53):
So if it's team based stuff, I don't necessarily need to be in
the office, but it's more because I'm actually meeting
with companies. Cool makes makes makes sense.
And so the next section I wantedto talk to you about is
something I know you're you're passionate about is diversity
and inclusion in in our industry.
And there's two questions on this.
(18:14):
The first one was around you started your career in in 2001
and actually on that note, what month of the year did you start
in 2001 then, because obviously that was quite a volatile year
for for the marketplace. Was it at the beginning or the
end of 01 when you when you started?
Can I just clarify this? I started in 1996 but I moved to
(18:38):
the UK in 2001 and I moved to the UK in 2001 in March.
So on that point, yeah, was given the so 1996.
So just trying to think of the amount of change you must have
seen like over the 30 year odd period.
(18:59):
So how has that changed particularly as a as a woman in
finance? I mean, I'd imagine what it's
like today was probably quite a lot different from what it was
back then. Is that actually true as a
statement? So I have to just give you a bit
of background on this. I started off on the sell side,
(19:20):
which is sort of investment banking, but equity research on
the sell side. And then I moved to the buy side
in 2007. So I would say in the earlier
years, I didn't notice much difference between the gap
between men and women. I actually don't know what the
stats are in terms of the intakefor for men and women, but I
(19:43):
think what I do notice now is that, well, maybe it's just
useful. There was a recent article in
the Times that just kind of, andit's a 10 year study that
they've done. And so this is more for buy
side, but women now only accountfor close to 13% of UK fund
managers. This is only slightly up from
(20:06):
12.5 the year before. And this is versus 10% over the
10 year period where they've conducted the survey.
So I, I think, you know, there has been some progression on the
buy side, but not enough, not enough, like just not as, as
(20:26):
much as one would have hoped. It seems like we are, the
industry is very good at gettingwomen to join the industry, not
as good as retaining women. So I think the stats here are as
the rate of charter or female for female PMS rose to 44% and
this is just 30% for men. So there is something going on
(20:48):
where we do lose a lot of women sort of middle to late career
and fund management. And I think it's very hard to
kind of just pinpoint 1 area, but I think, you know,
responsibilities change, some women want to change industries.
But I think what is happening maybe at the senior level is as
(21:08):
there are fewer women that are senior, there aren't that many
women that are left to kind of advocate for each other.
And it becomes quite imbalanced because I think in this survey,
they also mentioned that almost 80% of funds now continue to be
run by men and male dominated teams.
So again, like if there are senior positions that are coming
(21:29):
up and there isn't someone you know, advocating for you, it's
much harder I think to get into those senior roles.
That could be one reason. It's not the only reason, but I
would say again, like I didn't notice that much change or that
much difference when I was earlier on in my career.
It has somewhat changed as I became more senior in my roles.
(21:55):
And just kind of tied into that then we've spoken before you and
I about the lack of racial diversity in the UK financial
kind of industry. What I just wondered, what has
your own experience been? I mean, you've been an American
coming here as well to the UK toadd in another layer of
complexity to it. But yeah, kind of what what
needs to change for them that you feel for better
(22:18):
representation and support for those types of communities?
So when I was becoming more senior, I definitely was looking
up to see if there were role models or, you know, mentors or
allies that I could sort of find.
And it was quite difficult week for me in the UK to find those
people. I had more luck in the US and
(22:40):
obviously in Asia. So I was able to kind of speak
to those people, you know, usingmy sort of global network.
But I think in the UK, one big thing that I think I've talked
to you about in the past is really the inclusion aspect.
But I wish firms would do more, but that I wish minorities would
do more for each other. So I think here it's really
(23:04):
we're so few in numbers, I thinkwe can help each other out.
That would be really, really helpful to being very open to,
you know, minorities across the board to keep or to retain
people in the industry and to help them along.
I think it's really helpful. But I think for companies, I
(23:25):
mean it's really unfortunate that some of these DEI programs
have gone away. But even if there isn't a
company wide program, but for individuals to kind of think
about inclusivity, it is really,I guess I went to a diversity
training and it was really aboutlike, you know, look around at
your own dinner table and if youonly see one color, think about
(23:47):
how that feels and try to bring more people into, you know, of
different backgrounds into your table to have those discussions
because you do get more diversity of thought.
You do get different perspectives.
You will learn something that you probably, you know, didn't,
didn't learn or sorry, didn't know.
And I think if you know, individuals can work on just
(24:10):
including people more that will that will definitely help.
But again, I don't, I don't have, you know, a concrete
answer because I think it's probably due to many things.
Yeah, Yeah. This could quite easy become a
different whole new podcast series.
But one of the things then that I wanted to finish on was really
(24:34):
tapping into your your experience that we've just
mentioned. It's been so far reaching that
there's probably some great Nuggets of kind of wisdom here
for for largely our community who tend to be in their early
career or student. So one of three for the first
one up. What advice would you give to
young professionals trying to break in firstly to to asset
(24:56):
management? Yeah.
So one thing I would say is to have a growth mindset, be
curious, ask questions, don't beafraid to learn, try your
hardest not to be afraid to be wrong.
And then I guess the second thing is kind of research the
positions that you want and research the firms that you
(25:17):
want. So I think what I do, being a
long only investor is quite different than someone who wants
to work at a quant fund or a hedge fund.
For me, it's really about like understanding the business
models, like taking a very, you know, a longer term view of how
these companies will be. But for some hedge funds, their
(25:38):
risk parameters are quite different from mine.
They can take a shorter term view.
And then on the quant side, it'sa very, very different skill
set. So, you know, like, I think as
as, as someone that's going intothis industry, they should try
to think about like what resonates with them and they can
make the switch. Some firms, some firms do want
(26:04):
like on the coin side, they do definitely want people that have
had a math background. So if you know, if you have an
English background, that might it might be more challenging to
move into a quant role. So I think it's useful for the
for the person to do quite a bitof research on that.
And then the last thing is startinvesting.
It doesn't have to be real money.
It could be again, on, you know,a piece of paper or you know,
(26:28):
however you might keep a note. But it's picking a company,
going through what you think arethe reasons why you think this
is a good investment and write down the share price of when you
wanted to put money in and trackit.
I think by doing that it gives you a very good understanding of
what you got right, what you gotwrong, the parameters that you
(26:50):
might think about and look at for what makes a good company.
And it's almost like you're building that process then that
you earlier said you're going toutilize later for that switch,
but could be in several years down the line to give you the
confidence and the evidence to go into the PM role.
(27:10):
Yeah. And it also allows you to ask
different kinds of questions, right?
Because having done that, you will have understood like, OK, I
thought the company would actually make more money in this
and they haven't. Why?
And when you work with people, you could also leverage more of
their own experience as to what you might have gotten right and
(27:31):
what you might have gotten wrong.
But if you try to start it when you do, when you start in this
industry, it's quite hard because you're learning so many
different things at the same time.
Cool. OK.
And then 2, two more to go. So this one is about giving
yourself one piece of advice. If you were starting in finance,
if that was the case, what wouldit be?
(27:53):
I would say try to work for people that you could really
learn from and related to this, find really good mentors and
allies. OK, you mentioned that word
mentor. So, so mentor.
We, we, we spoke about this whenwe met a few weeks ago for a
coffee. A lot of students get told you
(28:17):
should, you should seek out a mentor.
The valuable relationship that you can have with with a mentor,
but no one actually really drills into.
I think a lot of people talk about how to maybe source or
find a mentor, but how do you utilize that relationship in a
harmonious and effective way? So the mentor and mentee
relationship. So what does?
(28:38):
What would that look like to you?
So I think this is mostly from the mentee side first, which is
I think try to find someone thatyou can talk to because you are
asking them for advice, right? Or I would hope that you're
asking for them for advice and sharing things with them.
So I think the second thing is being you have to find the
(29:02):
person that you could speak to because you are going to be, you
know, vulnerable with them. You are going to potentially
have to say to them like, look, I have this problem that I'm
trying to solve. Could you sit down with me for a
few days or a few minutes and discuss it?
And again, it's really, I would say that relationship should be
driven by the mentee. So when you book the time with
(29:24):
your mentor, you know, come prepared, have two or three
questions that you want to get through and you know, be
prepared to kind of follow up with those questions.
I would say that is like a very good way to kind of start that
relationship. And then it will just be a lot
easier because you can you will have established A rapport with
(29:46):
that person. But I think it's the worst when
you find a person and they have to pull things out of you.
So I think it's a much beneficial relationship if you
come prepared. There are talking points and
discussion points, and then you can go away and think about
things and then come back and continue that discussion with
(30:06):
the person. And then there are, you know,
there are a few senior people that listen to the show and
there are lots of other people. We, we often get people like
architects, lawyers. And so it's quite a wide range
of in our community on the podcast specifically, what would
you say with mentoring in general for them?
(30:28):
I mean, if you've mentored someone yourself, what have you
got out of that process from your side, do you think?
So I actually learned a lot fromthe people that I met to work,
asked a lot of questions that are that are in the workplace
that others around you might be afraid to ask.
(30:49):
And so I think if from a mental perspective, I think trying to
approach it with an open mind, you know, as possible.
And also there is a generationalgap sometimes.
And I think that generational gap when you are in this mentor
relationship is really useful because it really gives you a
perspective into how someone else that is very different from
(31:10):
you thinks and, you know, the things that they might be going
through and the challenges that they have in, you know, in their
organization and in their role. Yeah, I definitely think I was
sat on a call just a few hours ago with some students who had
no programming knowledge and hadcreated some incredible time
(31:32):
efficient applications within the financial workspace.
So mainly kind of back mid office type functions, which
could be you can make those efficiency gains, but it was
amazing. And these are people who are
just kind of regular finance students, but have that that,
you know, they're the native AI kind of generation if you like.
(31:54):
And then, yeah, learn so much. It's incredible.
So totally agree with. I just think the way the world
is going, the more you could learn from each other, the
better, you know, the better offwe are.
I mean, we can't have the machines take over the world,
right? But we can certainly work with
people and utilize these machines to just help us be
(32:17):
better. All right, well, that's that's
the end. So thank you so much for giving
up your time. Really appreciate it.
And yeah, wishing you all the best and hopefully catch up
soon. Thank you so much, Anthony for
having me.
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