May 28, 2025 • 52 mins
In this episode, Anthony speaks with Sara Ruozzo, whose journey from classical studies in Milan to internships at Microsoft and Tesla, and now working in sustainable investments at UBS, is a masterclass in career pivoting with purpose.
If you're a student from a non-finance background or early in your career, wondering how to break into finance (and feel like everyone else already knows the playbook), this one's for you.
Sara discusses the real value of a STEM background in the finance industry and why saying yes to new experiences (even when you're unsure) can be the fastest route to finding your edge.
Expect jargon-free advice, practical tips on self-teaching, the value of rotations and graduate schemes, and how to build a story that makes employers sit up and listen.
(00:00) Introduction and Background
(03:01) Career Pivots and Decision-Making Process
(05:49) Transitioning into Finance
(08:23) Building Confidence and Self-Awareness
(11:58) Knowledge Gaps and Learning Strategies
(14:53) Soft Skills and Growth Mindset
(19:10) Practical Steps to Upskilling
(26:24) The Power of Networking
(27:28) Cultivating a Growth Mindset in Finance
(31:51) Leveraging a STEM Background in Finance
(36:36) The Value of Cultural Experiences
(43:55) Articulating Your Career Journey
(46:56) Practical Tips for STEM Students in Finance
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:02):
Hello and welcome to the special12 part Career Insight series
featuring interviews with inspiring women across finance
spanning trading, investment banking, data analytics, private
equity and venture capital. These conversations are designed
to deliver actionable career insights while educating and
empowering the new generation oftalent in our industry.
(00:24):
In today's episode, we meet ZaraRozzo, whose journey into
finance didn't start in a bank, but in tech with a STEM degree.
Zara began her career with internships at Microsoft and
Tesla before pivoting into sustainable investments at the
Swiss bank UBS, where she now focuses on infrastructure
equity. In this conversation, Zara
(00:45):
shares how she went from classical studies to engineering
to finding her ideal fit at UBS,proving that with curiosity,
self-awareness, and a growth mindset, your STEM background
can be your biggest asset in finance.
So let's dive in. Hello Zara, real pleasure
(01:08):
finally to have this conversation.
How are you? Very good, thanks.
And well, the pleasure is mine. Thanks for having me here.
Yeah. And the reason why I'm so
excited about this is that we are roughly about halfway
through this series we've been doing with a variety of of women
across the industry. And you are someone that really
stuck out to me for a number of reasons, but mainly because of
(01:29):
your your background, which I know we're going to dive into
because I think a lot of students or young professionals
who are thinking about career decisions, you know, you've
worked an intern at Tesla, Microsoft, McKinsey, you're now
at UBSI think this will be superinteresting, particularly for
people as well from a non finance background, especially
(01:50):
those from the STEM subject matter as well.
And also location wise, you know, you've been to Italy,
Germany, Japan, Switzerland, so,so much there.
So perhaps we can start from thetop like we do with all of our
guests and take me back to, you know, when you were a student,
your childhood, what were you thinking career wise?
And then we could build up to the present day and what you're
(02:12):
doing. That would be great.
Sure, sure. Thanks for that.
Of course. So I'm originally from Milan.
I've been growing up there in the outskirts of Milan for I
would say 1920 years of my life before I started moving around
like a spinning top. And as I was growing up, I grew
up as the first of four siblings, which I always like to
(02:33):
mention because I think it really shaped me as as a person
going on also career wise. And I think if there are any
listeners in listeners in the crowd that can relate as as
first kid, you, you know, you'rethe first one you really need to
stop on top of stay on top of ofparents expectations.
And you need to go out discovery, understand yourself
(02:55):
and you really don't have anyonein front of you showing you the
path. So I think that really I brought
that with me along my journey and well, during Milan, I had
the, you know, the basic education for myself.
So I started very far away from where I am today, both
figuratively and, and, and physically, geographically
speaking, because I started out in classical studies during high
(03:18):
school. So I was studying like Greek,
Latin, ancient languages, dead languages, as they called them.
But also that I think shaped me very much as a person, as a
person in my way of thinking andcritical thinking especially.
And you know, when you spend your days on great thinkers of
the past, you really learn to question everything.
(03:38):
And I just brought that along with me across my journey.
And when the first pivotal moment came, you know, choosing
what to do during uni, I think it was the first time I applied
a way of decision making and thinking that that I brought
along with me, which was I've always tried to go beyond what I
(03:59):
already knew and what I already experienced.
I would say that's a bit of my red thread throughout my life.
And in that case, you know, I did a lot of, you know,
literature, Italian and not, nota lot of math.
And I really just liked that. And I felt I was missing that
piece. So I said, what are you not to
move in completely to the other side of things?
And that's how I pivoted to engineering.
(04:21):
Basically. It's not a common move to do for
people from classical study to engineering, but I just felt it
was right and it could complement myself as a person
and as an academic student at the time I joined, specifically
industrial engineering, which I,I find is a really good path
because you can really blend, you know, the engineering side
of it, physics, chemistry, all of that with more managerial
(04:44):
skills and understanding and, you know, a company.
And at the time I was kind of sick, honestly, of not
understanding like titles of newspapers with, with the
economies. And I think that really could
give me an edge. It did.
So it was a great choice in terms of content, but
specifically really helped me tolive kind of experiences that I
wouldn't have not lived otherwise.
(05:06):
So university really gave me thechance to travel around.
Basically, I started with my first experience in Hamburg, in
Germany. And again, there was a pivotal
moment for my life. I just understood that that's
what I wanted. I wanted to go abroad, live
different experiences, know different people.
It just enriched me so much thatI knew I needed to do it all at
(05:28):
once. So when I came back, I already
knew I wanted to go abroad again.
Comment hit As for many people, it kind of changed my life.
So I stayed in Milan for the time being.
I kept on my master's studies with, I kept on basically
management engineering. So it's the same as industrial
engineering, but you take a little bit of more managerial
path, let's say. And as I was there, I managed to
(05:53):
enter a double degree degree program, which is called QTAM,
which stands for Quantitative Techniques for Economics and
Management. Because I realized I really
wanted to stay on the quant side.
So yes, managerial side, but I really wanted to master quantity
stuff, let's say. And also because that allowed me
to do 2 additional exchanges. The first one I did in Munich
(06:15):
and the second one in in Tokyo. So all of these academics
experienced, you know, enriched me so much both academically,
professionally, and I'll get there in a second, but
especially as a person. And, and I've brought that with
me until today. I felt like uni was not enough.
So I needed to do some professional experience.
(06:35):
And as I'm, you know, COVID hit as I was at home, it just
happened that I could get an internship at Microsoft and I
was working on IoT and clouds applied to different industries.
One of them was energy and sustainability.
So I loved my time at Microsoft.I, I really liked it, but I just
understood that tech was not forme.
(06:56):
What was for me was the industryI was applying tech to.
So, you know, energy and sustainability.
And that's how then it was much easier the second time when I
needed to choose an internship. So it didn't just happen.
I needed to, you know, select a company.
I knew I wanted it to be in the energy space, energy transition
space specifically. And that's how I ended up in
(07:18):
Tesla basically, And I don't know if many people know, but
Tesla don't only have the vehicle business, they only
hold, they also have an energy storage business.
So that's what I was working on.Again, I loved it, but I was
there. I realized I didn't quite like
staying on one product, one company.
I really like to see more of that.
(07:40):
So more companies, more projectsjust have more of a systemic
view. And I felt like the financial
industry could give me that. And also another thing I
realized was I, I always was driven by this idea of having an
impact. And I realized, you know, you
really can do that faster when you can direct money.
That's how I think our world works.
(08:01):
And that's basically how I was reached side of the table.
So from the investee, from the company to the investor side of
things. And I ended up in UBS, where I
am today in their, you know, sustainable investments area
within private markets where also infrastructure sits and
where I undertook a credit program, which I just finished
like a month ago actually. And yeah, where I'm working also
(08:25):
today in the infrastructure equity business basically.
Oh, thank you so much. That's such a, a great
explanation of, of your background and actually you
answered what was probably goingto be one of the things I was
going to ask about why the pivots through these industries.
But what you said made a lot of sense.
But perhaps I could reshape thatquestion a little bit and ask
perhaps. I think a lot of people find a
(08:46):
lack of confidence to be able totry to have the self-awareness
or assess their present situation and whether they're
satisfied and then making that leap to then move.
You've done that it seems like quite a few times from the what
you were studying originally at school to then going engineering
to then going into these companies and going, you know,
(09:08):
it sounds very definitive, your process and it all makes logical
sense. But so many people I think would
struggle to take that leap of faith and back themselves and
make a transition like that. Is there any like process that
you apply to like self review your situation and your
progression? Yes, yes, 100%.
(09:29):
Look, the first thing is you need to realize it's a process,
right? So it's a journey.
So I would have never guessed even just two or three years
ago, I would have been here today.
So every step of the way kind ofled me to the next one.
And that was only possible because of two things.
I think the first one is I was always genuinely curious.
(09:49):
So I, you know, pushed for to learn more, to, to know more.
And I said yes to everything because of not to everything.
Sorry. I said yes to a lot of things,
but I said yes to opportunities when they arise, like it
happened with Microsoft. I'll make a couple of examples
now, but I said yes to opportunities and I seek for
more when I felt like I didn't have the kind of opportunity I
(10:12):
wanted. And the second bit is I could.
As I said, it was not really a random choice, but it was a
strategic choice. And that's just because of the
self-awareness I developed through time.
And I think we are not taught this enough in university.
You really need to spend time tothink about yourself, who you
are, what you like, what you don't like.
(10:33):
And it's OK not to have it all, you know, figure it out day one.
But I'm quite sure your gut feeling already tells you, you
know, at least the direction. That's how I felt.
I had the direction, but I was not quite sure.
And I feel like I kind of adjusted with time better and
better. And to make you, you know, real
examples of that. So the experience in Microsoft
(10:55):
was was, you know, it just happened to me.
I was doing one of those business challenge in university
as as the ones you probably proposed as amplify me to
students, right. So companies came to Polytechnic
of Milan where I studied and Microsoft was one of them.
It was like a 10 day challenge and then they were interviewing
people they liked and that's howI got my into chip.
And you know, I said yes, it wasnot obvious because I never
(11:19):
thought about tech, to be totally honest.
And also, this is very Italian specific, but it's not common to
work as you study, you normally finish your studies and then you
go on working, even though I don't agree with that.
But it was at the moment I felt insecure, like shall I, you
know, be behind with my studies,be behind with my exams.
(11:39):
At the end I just said yes. So that's that's the first
point. Yes, the opportunity.
And as I was in it, I kind of explore different things.
And you know, as I said, I was working with IoT, which by the
way, is Internet of Things applied to different verticals.
And one of them was energy. My gut feeling told me, you
know, go there and I started, I said, I like this.
(12:00):
I told this to my manager. I was very vocal about it.
And I started, you know, just get more projects in it and get
involved and work more on that, even though it was my, you know,
my prior, prior responsibility, primary responsibility, sorry.
And that's how I developed at least a bit of an understanding.
And by the end of it, it was sixmonths.
(12:20):
I was even an offer, but I said,look, you know, I realized tech
is, you know, not my thing. I literally sit down and made a
list of things. What did I like, what I didn't
like or what I would do differently.
At least what I liked was to have an impact.
You know, Microsoft is huge and they do a lot in terms of
impact. And I knew I just wanted to keep
on with that. And 2nd, I really liked that,
(12:43):
you know, energy sustainability piece.
So in a piece. So I knew I wanted to, to stay
within that. What I didn't like was that it
was very qualitative as a job, which, you know, might fit some
people didn't fit me. I needed more numbers.
So I just kept this within my head for the next step.
And when the next step came, eventually I was in Munich and I
(13:03):
needed to find an internship andat the same time I was
developing those interests. So in general, I really
encourage people to study and work not at the same time, but
in the same period of time, because I could study energy
markets in Munich because I knewI liked it and you know, I was
still in university, so I could do that.
So I really encourage people to to double down on what they feel
(13:25):
they like. And it was much easier for me to
to choose Tesla because I knew that was a sector.
So when I entered Tesla, the kind of same thing happened.
So I started in an operational logistics role, which I really
liked, but not like LOF. Just to give some context, Tesla
produces these big batteries, they're called Megapacks.
(13:47):
So it's like big fields of battery storage, utility scale
basically. And I was working to bring
basically logistic wise those megapacks from America to the
EU. And then an opportunity came
basically one of the team members left very senior
actually, and she was working more on the energy trading side.
(14:09):
So these batteries trade energy with the grid when they are
operating and you know, there was no one available.
I was an intern at the time. I said I can take some of that
over, of course with some support.
But that's, that was my first interaction with energy markets
and energy trading and finance somehow.
And I just found I loved that completely and I just stayed
(14:31):
there. So when the internship finished
again, I did the same thing. I said, what are the things I
liked? What are the things I didn't
like? And I started for the first time
having a list of what are the things I don't want to
compromise on, you know, so there are things you can give
and leave, but there are things you really don't want to
compromise on. And for me, that was first.
I want to have an impact. Again, I'm not going to work in
(14:53):
a sector when I don't feel like I'm having an impact, which
means both in my case was also like sustainability wise, but it
can really just mean also work on projects that, you know, I
can see live and, and make difference in general in our
society. It doesn't have to be
sustainability related. For me, it was, so I want to
have an impact. I want to work in the energy
(15:14):
sector, energy transition sector.
I want to have and that was the Third Point, a really quant job.
Again, what I was doing was morequantum the first time, but not
enough. I want more numbers.
I want to think for things. And the last one, which is what
I mentioned maybe before is in Tesla.
It was a great company, but it was 1 product, you know, only
(15:35):
Megapacks for Tesla. And I felt like I wanted to see
more, more projects, more product, more companies.
And through a little bit of research and speaking to people
and probably we'll get there through the conversation, I
realized finance can could, could give me that, that edge
basically that that what I was looking for was there.
(15:56):
And so that's basically how I I made the switch.
And when I enter UBS in the sustainable investing practice
in private markets, in infrastructure, I kept on that
thinking and still I do today. So as I took every rotation,
I'll just make a very practical example, infrastructure equity,
I loved it, but I felt like I missed the depth part of it.
(16:18):
I didn't know how depth worked. And that's why my third rotation
was in leverage finance and structure finance, which
basically lend to this project. So it's not equity, but it's the
debt side of it. And now I feel more complete.
So in general, it was a combination of really trying to
complete myself and really stay authentic and true on the things
(16:40):
I didn't want to compromise on. And you know, to the students
listening to this, I'm not saying it's not scary.
It is super scary as you're there, especially if you're the
first one, especially if you don't have anyone in front of
you saying this is going to work, but this is going to work.
Like I know when you're there, you think I was thinking, and
you can ask my friends, like what if I'm not good at this?
(17:00):
What if finance is not for me? Or you know, as an industrial
engineer student, you really feel like you only have one
option after your master studies, which is consulting.
Like everyone just goes in consulting.
And I know it's scary to take another Rd. but it's going to
pay off, I assure you. And not only in the long term, I
think really also in the short term because you're just going
(17:22):
to get where you want much faster.
And I think a lot of people spend time working for their CVS
to get there, but they don't know what there is, they don't
know what they want. So really spending that time
thinking what you want and then you can think how you get there
really pays off. And it's going to build that
confidence that you're speaking about.
(17:43):
Like the confidence I have now, it's not the confidence I had
2-3 years ago. Because every step you take,
you're like, what? It worked out.
I actually loved it and you alsoenjoy the journey by the way, in
between because every step you take, you take it very
consciously and because you wantit, not because someone told you
to do so. And really builds that
confidence. And it helps you build your
(18:06):
story, which I think is a super underrated and underestimated
skill that you need to have, butreally build building your
story, which is an authentic one.
It's not built up. It's really like your own,
really gives you an edge. Also in interviews, like very
practically, I was told this when I got into UBS, like you
just had a good story, right? It's, it's not made-up, it's
(18:26):
authentic. And and that's going to really
give you an edge. And the story you built is a
combination of, yeah, your journey, but also coming up with
that list of things you don't want to compromise on, which
makes your red thread through, yeah, your journey.
Yeah, such great advice. And actually, what really
resonated there was when you, you know, you're talking about,
(18:49):
you need almost experience to figure things out and figure
yourself out. And yeah, a lot, so many
students I interact with just have this preconceived idea and
they are always quite, almost restricted in the narrowness of
their view thinking, right? I've got to make the right
decision from the beginning, andthat's going to define me for
(19:11):
the rest of my career. But you're absolutely right.
How do you even know really until you've had these genuine
experiences? Well, look, we covered quite a
lot there. So I'm, I'm quite, quite keen to
move on to some of the things that would be more specific for
particularly STEM students because we, we encounter and
work with a lot of them. And there is this increasing
(19:32):
interest of financial institutions for people of that
discipline. I guess for those students like
yourself, they're not always thinking finance 1st.
And so I guess a question to start with that having spoken to
you before, you were in good parts self-taught somewhat when
it came to finance. And you mentioned listening to
podcasts and kind of taking it upon yourself to be proactive
(19:53):
with your own learning. I just wondered the biggest
knowledge gaps that you had to bridge then when you came into
finance because I, I guess it can be quite intimidating for
someone who's not an econ student and then kind of
practical advice that people could take.
When entering a a completely newindustry as well.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, of course. So yes, also to to to give some
(20:17):
reassurance to the people listening to this.
Like when I started thinking about finance, I couldn't
distinguish UBS from a BlackRock.
I didn't know the difference between public markets and
private markets. So you really can get there.
So this is for the people listening.
In my case, I think the biggest knowledge gap at the beginning
(20:38):
for the way I think. So I'd really like to have a big
the big picture first. I really like to understand how
you know the system works. And that was just really blurry
to me. I was from from someone that
doesn't study finance or it's not really interested into it
since the beginning. I think it can get very abstract
very easily. So you really don't know who the
players are, what's exactly going on with, you know, the
(21:00):
money in the system. And that took me probably the
biggest part of my time. But when I had that figured out,
everything was much easier. Again, probably that's my way of
reasoning and thinking for things.
But getting first the big picture and then moving on to
basic financial concepts, that'sa gap I had.
(21:22):
So from, you know, time value ofmoney, of course, I've seen a
bit of accounting and, and all of that as I was going through
my management engineering university path, but, but it was
not the same thing. So you really need to, it's not
only you understand it, it's you, you master it, you own it.
So that took me quite a while. And all those concepts like also
(21:43):
on other asset classes like bonds and why the price of bonds
move with interest rate. All of that, all of that was
actually during my Tokyo exchange.
And as you mentioned, I just wasvery curious in it.
I just was again, kind of sick, kind of sick of not
understanding how the whole system worked.
And I started listening to podcasts and reading journals
and you need to be very selective with it.
(22:05):
So there is so much information out there.
So I spent some time selecting what I thought was the podcast I
just liked not even they were good.
I liked them. I liked listening to them
spending my nights, you know, with my bike and just listening
to that. You need to enjoy the process of
learning. And by the way, that's, that's a
very, very good way to understand if you like finance
or not. If you spend, you know, entire
(22:27):
days and hours informing yourself and you like the
process, that's, that's an easy choice.
If you just cannot listen to that stuff, that's probably not
your journey. It's OK, right.
In my case, it was something I really like.
I was lucky enough to be able tochoose some uni courses there in
Tokyo. That helped me a little bit.
So that was a bit my process before the interviews.
(22:50):
And then of course, when you, you need to be a strategic with
your preparation of the interview.
I was, you know, applying for private markets.
So of course, I built more knowledge around that.
And then the whole journey continued as I started with UBS,
of course. And by the way, I really
recommend people if they can, especially STEM students to go
on a graduate program journey because you can rotate.
(23:13):
It's OK. Again, if you don't have it all
figured out from day one. I did not.
I had a gut feeling for what I liked and then as I was in, I
could rotate in three different teams, see different part of the
bank and that really complementsyour knowledge.
And I took on the CFA level 1 exam.
So of course, it was like one year and a half or two of an
(23:34):
intense financial, you know, study and, and just building up
my knowledge. It took quite a while, but it's,
it's it you can do it. Basically, you can do it.
And if I can give some advice tothat might be a bit more
structured maybe. I think it's a combination of
hard skills and soft skills. So on the hard skills side, as I
(23:56):
said, I think it's it's three steps, right?
First one, you understand the big picture, depends on how your
mind works. But I think it's better to start
top down and then you go into the details because finance can
get very much into the details. So start from the big picture,
understand how the ecosystem works, and then you move on a
little bit more in detail and you understand the basics, the
need to know. So I need to know some basic
(24:18):
concepts. You cannot be in the financial
industry, even if you are in private equity.
You need to know what bonds are and how they work, for example,
just just one example. And then once you have that
basic knowledge of everything, you move on and you move on to
the in depth knowledge. But that's only for your area of
interest. So in my case, it was private
(24:39):
markets or specifically infrastructure.
And then with time you realize what you really need to know,
what you need to master. And that requires so much time,
much more than you know getting to the basic knowledge.
So it's OK that it's a process with time, but I would say these
are the three layers of knowledge you need, you need to
you need to gain. And on the soft skills side, the
(25:01):
1st and most important thing is keeping a growth mindset.
Literally that was probably the biggest switch I had in every
pivot I did through through my life.
You need to be ready to look like the idiot in the room.
It's OK like you don't, you don't know you come from a
different background and it's OKnot to know.
(25:23):
You need to be comfortable with being uncomfortable.
And you know, and I said growth mindset, there is this, this,
this great book about the sorry,the comparison between growth
mindset and a fixed mindset. And I, I was, I used to be very
much in a fixed mindset. So you know it all.
You kind of look like an idiot. You, you, you need to be on top
of everything the whole time. But that creates a fear of
(25:45):
failure that really keep holds you back in learning more and,
and, and it can, can be really detrimental throughout your,
your career and your life in general.
It's not only career wise with the growth mindset, you just let
go of that fear and you just, you're open to learn to not to
know and also seek advice and help.
(26:07):
That's what I did a lot. Maybe, you know, be strategic
about it. Don't, don't ask your, you know,
managing director for a concept you should know, but go to your
peer and ask. Look, that's what I did when I
started with UBS. I, I had my circle of graduates
and I said, look, guys, there are certain things I really
don't understand. Can we sit down?
And you woke me for it. And that's how you literally get
(26:27):
very, very fast to the same level where they are.
Not only that, but you come witha different background.
So you are actually, you have a match.
You're much more complete in in that sense.
So growth mindset is, is the enabler just for your life in
general, I think, but especiallycareer wise.
Second, you need diligence and hard work.
I'm not going to lie about this.You need a lot of hours to go
(26:49):
for stuff. And as I said, that's also a
good way to understand if you like it or not.
Again, be selective, be strategic, Don't Start learning
everything of everything. But once you have the big
picture, you just go, OK, this is what I should know.
These are the websites I really like.
These are the postcards I reallylike.
Give yourself time. Don't think that in a month
you're going to be a finance savvy.
(27:09):
It's not going to happen. But you know, I can say one year
and a half, two years, I feel quite confident at the with the
level I am at right now. So it's not even like a 10 years
journey. Of course it's a lifetime
journey, but you know, to build the basic blocks, you can do it
basically. And the last piece is again, on
(27:29):
the sub skills side, speak to people.
It's not only networking, but really speak to people because
people are going to give you a real sense of what they're doing
and where they are in the system.
Again, you're going to build puzzle like your your little
puzzle like this. And I spoke, you know, to people
in fields that right now, I knowthey really don't, they're not
(27:52):
done for me. Like it's a bond, but I spoke to
a lot of people because I thought maybe, you know, maybe
that that can be for me. I spoke to a person in that
field and I said, OK, that's this is all my stuff.
And you don't need to go for an interview to realize that you
just speak with someone. And I mean, of course, people
then can also open for you opportunities.
That's the main probably goal ofnetworking, but it's not the
(28:12):
only one. Sometimes it's just about
building that knowledge and, andpeople can really help you with
that. If you're lucky like I was, you
can also have your circle of beers during uni or during, you
know, your graduate programs or when you work to, to also be in
that knowledge together. I would say yeah, as a whole,
these are the advices I would give probably.
(28:33):
Yeah, your your example there ofthe growth versus fixed mindset.
I think there's a lot of anxietyand fear, particularly when you
talk about large financial institutions, so big investment
banks that you have to know all the answers.
And I guess you're kind of semi groomed that way to get through
the application process. You know, you should notice
(28:54):
basics about derivatives, you should know what's going on in
global macro. But I, I guess then my question
is more the culture, say the culture at UBS then.
So is it cultivating an ability to be able to have to question
things or to be able to, you know, within reason, obviously
to be able to take risk or to fail to make decisions to ask
questions? Is that, is that the atmosphere
(29:16):
just to kind of, I guess, going demystify the myth of what
investment banking is like as anindustry more more broadly?
Yes, yeah. The answer to that is, is yes.
And I think this has, you know it, it might have changed with
time. I'm not sure how it was like
some years ago, but I think without like it's critical to
UBS and to all other companies in my opinion to have that
(29:39):
because once you lose that a lotof potential in people and you
just lose people that might havea great potential and just kind
of express it because they are this fear of failure.
So in my case, yes, it's, it's the case and it really helps.
And I really also again, it's about being strategic, right?
You, as you said, it's within reason.
So you need to understand when is the right time to make a
(30:02):
question. But sometimes it really takes
just to stall and you ignore your ego for a second and say, I
said this quite a lot of times in calls like, can we stop there
for a second? Sorry.
I might, you know, without the sorry, actually I should know
this. But can you help me refresh that
for a second? Like there are ways that you can
(30:25):
also rephrase the simple, I don't know.
Or it's, it's much better to take, you know, take a step
forward and say, you know, can you help me figure that out
rather than say, yes, I got this, leave it to me.
And then you just as I did also a couple of times, really don't
recommend because then you're just left with yourself and you
just don't know stuff and you don't believe her, you know.
(30:48):
So I really suggest find yourself an organization that
reason this way and also ask this question in interviews.
You guys are allowed to ask questions in interviews and you
can say, you know, what's, what's the approach of UBS or
whatever is the other bank towards this topic?
Like what is, how is failure treated?
And I, I think there is a lot ofimportance associated to it
(31:10):
finally from all of these kind of organizations.
And I think it really helps because that's the only way that
people really grow and, and learn through time because they
are not held back by this fear of, of just failing, right?
And, and I think it's, I was lucky enough with all of my
organizations, all of these growth mindset actually started
with, with Microsoft back in thedays.
(31:32):
They really made this, they really made of this the, the
pivotal point of their culture. If you, if you look at, if you
look at their share price, when they changed CEO, when Satya
Nadella now came in some years ago, now the share price
started, you know, to go very upright now not but, but it really
(31:53):
went up from what it was. And when I was at Microsoft,
they told me this was the reasonwhy, you know, it's all about
culture that he brought in this topic of growth mindset versus
fixed mindset. And people felt OK making
mistakes and, and asking questions and asking for help.
And that really can have a huge impact also profitability wise,
(32:14):
also share price wise, it's not only, you know, to make people
feel better, it's, it's much more than that.
So if you go and read Microsoft story, it's really focused on
this. And I think every organization
sure, really, yeah, focus on these as part of their culture.
So so just to finish. On this, this segment of the
conversation, one thing is that,as I said, a lot of STEM
(32:35):
students listen to this this podcast.
And I was just wondering, was there anything that you had
learnt from that background thatactually surprised you?
And you were like, ah, perhaps Iactually have an edge.
So the econ students who might not have done this, I've
actually done this before. And actually it's a useful asset
to have. Absolutely.
(32:56):
And. Again, I really want the STEM
students here listening to to bereassured with this look, a STEM
background is really an easy sell.
It's an easy sell. So they want you 100%.
Don't be afraid of that. It's you that need to want them,
but they really want you. When I say they, I mean, you
know, interviewers and financialinstitutions because you bring
to the table. Well, first a different
(33:17):
perspective. But apart from that, some key
skills that you really need in the industry in this industry
first is the logical thinking. And I was told it as a feedback
many times. So it's you have because of your
stand background, especially engineering, but I'm sure it's
the same in, you know, physics and chemistry and all of that.
You have this logical way of thinking, structured way of
(33:41):
thinking of breaking down problems, you know, 123 in in
sub sub problems and you solve all of them in a logical manner
from A to B, from East to C and then so on.
And if you're then also able to communicate to people in the
same structured and logical way,then you got it all right?
So it's a way of thinking you'revery complete if you're also
(34:01):
able to communicate that way of thinking.
And that's extremely appreciated.
That's point #1 because it's a problem solving approach, right?
Second is your are just good with numbers normally.
And they love that. It's not only about being good
with Excel, it's being able to interpret numbers to you have a
(34:21):
lot of numbers and you just makesense of them.
You're you just choose the three, four main numbers that
can help you with the decision making.
And they just love that to be honest.
And you just really need it, especially where I am.
But I think honestly everywhere in the financial industry, you
need to be good at numbers to beable to work with numbers, to
(34:42):
interpret numbers, to communicate numbers again.
So probably the communication pieces is key.
And maybe it's not obvious from a step background, but if you
work on that, you have all the tools then to to have an edge.
Another element is you are acquainted most probably with
anything IT related from coding to you know, Python, you know
(35:04):
what Power BI is, what a visualization data tool is, and
again, they just really need that.
I ended up leading projects thatI didn't want to lead just
because I was the only one, you know, having an understanding of
what Power BI was or how can youwork with that or how is the
data flows of the data system working because a lot of people
(35:28):
don't have that understanding. And as also probably being part
of this generation, we are just more acquainted with all of this
kind of stuff. And plus on top of that, you
also did it in your studies and you can just resell that very
easily. I sold a lot of my, you know,
coding skills, even if I don't code anymore in my daily life in
like in my daily job, I did a Tesla, but not anymore now.
(35:51):
But still they, they like that you can understand and you can
be the person in between basically the coder and the
business because you understand both parts and, and that's
really an edge that you can easily sell, let's say.
Then another one is your technical knowledge, especially
in this case for where I am right now.
(36:11):
So infrastructure, everything that is real and concrete
related, but also specifically specific industries from, you
know, logistics and distribution.
I mean, having that technical understanding of, I don't know
how energy markets work, I wouldan electrical system works or I,
I think not a lot of economics or financial people have that
(36:34):
and, and that really helps, especially if you're targeting,
you know, one of those industries or one of those
sectors. So that really, really helps.
And finally what I mentioned at the beginning, you just bring in
a different perspective. You are new to the system.
You never really studied financial systems before.
So you can bring in new ideas. Even your what you think are
(36:56):
stupid questions are actually very good questions.
And that some people just cannotsee, not because there's not
because they're stupid, but because they have been in the
industry for 20 years. And sometimes you just cannot
see things clearly anymore. And you bring in that
perspective. You challenge that, that piece
that I mentioned at the beginning of questioning
everything. Please try to have that and
(37:18):
don't be afraid to ask questionsbecause you're really going to
make a difference and you're going to have an edge.
So play with all these cards in your interviews because it's
really going to give you an edge.
Also with a lot of people that studied finance and and all of
that, I'm sure that's going to be.
Such reassuring words to to so many and it makes a great deal
of sense. And one of the things you
(37:40):
mentioned earlier was that through, I think it was even
your studies, you were saying you went to Japan, I know you
went Italy, Germany, you're in, you know, Switzerland, all these
different places. I wondered whether I could just
touch on that as to from a perhaps more personal or
professional perspective, like what did experiencing different
(38:00):
geographies, different cultures,what has that given you?
Because I think a lot of people will consider that in terms of
potential career choices early in their career, 100% no.
And. That's that's a critical point,
especially in my life. But in general, it's something I
try to recommend to everyone. Yes, it changed me a lot.
It shaped me so much as a person.
(38:22):
Both. Yeah.
On a personal level, professionally, academically,
everything. I just cannot express how much
it enriched me in general. And that's because of several
things. First and foremost is the people
you meet. So it's both people that then
stay in your life. So maybe friends and, and
colleagues and all of that. But I also mean it in terms of
(38:43):
people you meet in your, you know, in the streets or in the
supermarket. And they just have a different
way of thinking. They have a different way of
seeing the world. And I mean, of course, the more
you go far away, the easier it'sfor that to happen.
Like Japan was the extreme case of that.
But I won't, you know, I'm Italian and also staying in the
European Union. That process happened of just
(39:06):
being able to think, to see things in a bigger way, in a
different way, change perspectives, your way of
thinking changes and that that just enriches you so much.
That's just because of the people you meet and the way they
reason and the inputs they give you.
And sometimes you don't elaborate on the inputs straight
away. And that's why they're, you
(39:27):
know, thinking for things and self-awareness piece really
helps because you need to spend time reflecting back on your
experiences and say, OK, what what I learned from all of these
people because potentially, and I really believe this, you can
learn a lot from every person you meet every day.
Doesn't matter if it's at work or as I said, at the
supermarket, You know, the way you communicate with people and
(39:50):
what people transmits, you can, can really change you as a
person if you again, are selected with the inputs you
receive. So people are definitely the
first point. 2nd is a thing of cultures, right?
It's quite related. But when you change culture,
when you change habits, you really learn new ways of doing
things. It might be work, it might be
(40:12):
their perception of your own self, it might be sport, it
might be whatever. But if you're confined in your
own, you know, bubble of where you've grown and.
Your circle and it's just very different.
It's just very difficult to gainyour perspectives and to do
things a different way. So as I went through, you know,
(40:33):
Italy and then Germany and then Japan and I've been to London a
little bit. Every person has, you know,
different ways of doing things. Every culture has its own way of
doing things and you just absorbthat even without wanting to,
but but you do that and that really enriches you.
Again, Third Point is definitelythe adaptability.
(40:55):
And you, you just become very good at learning fast how to
live in a new country and that learning process that then you
have it, you know, for your daily life.
Then you also adapt it to when you learn a concept or you learn
a project, you're just very flexible with everything.
You know, The first time might be tough.
It was the second stuffer. Sorry, it's, it's a little bit
(41:16):
tough. And the more you go on, the more
it becomes natural. When I move to Switzerland now,
to Zurich for Ubis, it was really smooth because I did this
like so many Times Now that I just learned to do that quick,
to do that without any pain and to actually enjoy the process in
between. And this adaptability,
flexibility, you can really use it then in your everyday life,
(41:38):
in your job. It really gives you an edge
again. And another point is
communication and you're just empathy with people.
I mean, of course, you can also learn languages in between.
That's a big plus. In my case, I learned 2
languages through my, you know, experiences without English, so
excluding English. So that is in general very
(41:58):
useful in, in my case. I mean, I really like languages,
so that's me. But it doesn't mean you need to
learn a language. That's a plus.
But in general, you just learn to communicate with different
people, with different cultures,even when you don't understand
yourself and with, with them. I mean, and that can happen,
especially in Japan, it was a struggle.
It really was when you don't have, you know, they don't speak
(42:21):
English and it's just very difficult, but you still find a
way to understand each other, tofind common ground and to build
from there. I think this, it really helps my
interpersonal skills, communication skills and, and,
and all of that without a singleday on a book like this was all
daily interaction with people onthe streets basically.
(42:42):
So probably all of these elements all together.
And yeah, just a different perspective and how much
everything enriches you so much.And honestly, I wouldn't be here
today, I'm sure, without all of these experiences, even just the
pivot to finance. And this is a very, you know,
practical example. It happened because as I was in
(43:04):
Tokyo, I met two people that I didn't know that was studying
with me. And I was, you know, looking to
apply into consulting and all ofthat.
And I was confronting with them and they said, but why don't you
look into finance, like if you like all of this.
And I was like, yeah, yeah, you know, might make sense, but I
never studied this. But one of these people, one of
these persons and studied the same that I did, so industrial
(43:26):
engineering, just in a differentyear.
So I knew through her that this was possible.
And they, I just sit down with them, got a little bit of
learning from them and that really helped me then, you know,
starting then to learn on my own.
But it didn't start from me only.
It was because of the interaction with other people
and how excited they were about this industry and what was
(43:48):
possible. And they just showed me there
was another way. They helped me think outside of
the box in a way. So, and this came just from my
experience abroad. Basically, I just love the.
The continuity through your journey of just being curious
the whole time and how that suchlike a catalyst for moving
forward and self improvement andnew new experiences, new options
(44:12):
as such such a good kind of concept.
And you know, one of the things I was going to ask, just as
you're explaining, just because I know a lot of students think
this way, but I think I already know the answer.
But I'd like to get your take. And this is the idea that if I'm
a student and I've gone from consulting to tech to finance,
I've gone from this country to that country, they get nervous
(44:33):
that, oh, someone might look at me as a candidate and go, you
don't really look like you've found a landing zone yet.
Now, I'm assuming this is all down to how you explain and
articulate your journey of self exploration and development as
you've arrived at this point. Am I right in that assumption?
And, and how can I guess people can use this?
(44:55):
They've got to see it as a strength, not a weakness, right?
Absolutely. 100% And this boils down again to that
self-awareness piece. And of course you, I mean you
look like you don't know what you're doing.
If you don't know what you're doing, like if you're going
randomly from one piece to the other and you cannot explain why
or what, not even what you did, but why you did that, then
(45:17):
that's a problem. That's a weakness, but it's a
strength. When you figure it out on the
way you build 1 block after the other.
And as we said before, you buildyour own story around it and you
need time to figure out your story.
Like maybe it's not obvious, noteven to you.
But as you look back, you know, retrospectively, you're like, uh
huh. I mean, I did this because of
(45:39):
this. And you really build your own
red thread. As I said at the beginning that
you can, I mean, it's good for yourself because it really
builds up that self-awareness and that confidence, but it's
also very good to sell to someone.
So the way I went in every interview was, you know, I did
this and this and that because of that.
Not like a shopping list, but building up my story.
(46:00):
And I always ended with, and that's why I'm here.
So you need to guide them through your journey and say, I
learned this, this and that. I realized this, this and that.
And that's why I'm here today because I think you are the
perfect next step for this kind of journey.
So yeah, if you have your story,you can tell it well, and it's
an authentic one. It's not made-up.
(46:22):
Then it's a real strength. And again, it's OK if you don't
have it all figured out the first time, not the second.
Maybe you do a couple of experiences just because they're
good firms. That's totally OK.
But then capitalize on those learnings and choose your third
or fourth step in a rationalizedway, if you see what I mean.
I think what's. So refreshing listening to you
(46:43):
in this whole conversation is that even though you're still,
you know, early in your career, so to speak, it's almost like
you sound so much higher in yourconviction of the clarity of who
you are, what you want, you know, where you're heading.
But that's a byproduct, I think of because of the experiences
that you've had. Whereas a lot of people just
(47:03):
don't give themselves the opportunity to have the
experiences. And it takes just so much longer
to get to that point of realization and self discovery.
So yeah, it's amazing. Final, final sections, then
maybe some practical tips and particularly again, speaking to
the the STEM students, but I guess more broadly, and that is
for one for young people in STEMwho are curious about finance.
(47:26):
What do you think is the best place to start?
I think you said it earlier, it's a little bit overwhelming
at the beginning and you were saying about very specific
selection of of sources. So a little bit more on that.
And then also people want to explore infrastructure and
sustainable finance. I I guessing that that's not as
heavy as enriched a database as accessible on the Internet as
(47:50):
say traditional investment banking or trading.
So yeah, those two things, if you have any tips on that would
be great. Of course, of course, so on the
first one to STEM students, but but in general, as I said, I
think it first starts with self-awareness and get a bit of
direction. So if you're interested into
(48:11):
finance, why is that? You must have a gut feeling for
something, right? So first, really things think
through for like your previous experiences, if you have any, or
maybe you just studied so far, what captured your interest,
what you know what, what is the direction you might be heading
to? Not in terms of role or
institution, Just be more generic with that.
(48:32):
You know, that list of things. I don't want to compromise on
things I would really like to dothat doesn't mean to it doesn't
have to be a role. It's just a list of things very
generic. But that should point you a
little bit. You know that somehow.
So first get the direction. Then second piece is understand
what you need to understand. So understand what you need to
(48:52):
know. All those building blocks that
we said before. First you get the big picture.
And I know as a STEM student, itis intimidating at the
beginning, but literally it's just all about going in the
Internet and look for, you know,how the financial system works
and how is the, what are the players?
How is the ecosystem. It's going to take you a couple
of days just to have you the bigpicture.
(49:13):
And then you start doubling downin the things you need to know
as basic concepts. Yeah, some, you know, financial
basic concepts you, you might know.
And then you start targeting. You need to be selective with
things. So you understood how the big
picture is, what are the basic knowledge you need to have and
then you start targeting. In my case, let's say you go
(49:35):
with, OK, I really like private markets, I really like infra.
How do I get more knowledge about it or how do I even get
into that? How do I manage to get a first
experience? There is a combination of
things, as we said, first is theknowledge build up on those
skills. If you know that, you know, you
might need a bit of modelling skills, It doesn't mean you need
(49:56):
to be super good at it before you go for an interview, but at
least having a bit of accountingknowledge, know what a model is.
You know, it's, it's, it's step by step.
That's the first piece. So understand what you need to
understand and build up that knowledge.
And then again, speak with people network, but really do
both in your university with, you know, linking is a great,
(50:19):
great tool, but just speak to people as much as you can,
especially if you're targeting, you know, a specific segment or
a specific sector. Really try to reach out to those
people and ask them very specific questions.
And this is going to, yeah, at least first make you understand
if that's really for you or not,or, you know, you might try it
out. And then to get to have the
(50:41):
experience also leverage, as we said, oldest kids that you
already have and in combination with all that you're learning,
they can really help you throughthe interview process and, and,
and to get to a first experience.
And don't settle for the first experience.
I think, I mean, in a way you need to be selective, but also
probably you need to pick up on whatever opportunity you get.
(51:02):
So don't get me wrong there. You don't need to, you know, be
too picky and say, Oh, no, this I don't like or this it's not
for me. I mean, yes, but until a certain
point, I think until it's an internship or even a graded
program, just get a foot in the door.
Honestly, just get there. And then from there again with
this story about yourself and, and building up those skills
(51:25):
with time, with time, you will realize which skills you need to
make the jump. It's much, much, much easier
when you're already with one foot in the door and you kind of
pivot yourself within the industry or within the
organization rather than you figure it all out from the
outside. And then you need to get that
role that is very difficult because it's also a competitive
industry and you know, it, it, it, it might be a little bit
(51:47):
more difficult. So take on the opportunity,
especially internships, go for graduate programs where you can
build up that knowledge, that experience, reflect on that,
take time to reflect on that andthen move on to the next step in
a more conscious way and in a little bit more of a selective
way. That's probably the advice.
And I think I answered also the second question all together.
(52:08):
So this is for infra and privateequity in general when you
target you know build up on the skills network etcetera, but
it's also for any other target you might have within the the
infra needs, sorry within the financial system industry.
All right. Well, look, that wraps up the
episode. So once again, just want to say
thank you for myself and all theteam and find me for sharing
(52:31):
your time and I and I wish you all the best with your continued
role at UBS. Thank you, Sarah.
Thank you very much. Anthony, it was a pleasure to be
here. Thanks.
Hello and welcome to the special12 part Career Insight series
featuring interviews with inspiring women across finance
spanning trading, investment banking, data analytics, private
equity and venture capital. These conversations are designed
to deliver actionable career insights while educating and
empowering the new generation oftalent in our industry.
(00:24):
In today's episode, we meet ZaraRozzo, whose journey into
finance didn't start in a bank, but in tech with a STEM degree.
Zara began her career with internships at Microsoft and
Tesla before pivoting into sustainable investments at the
Swiss bank UBS, where she now focuses on infrastructure
equity. In this conversation, Zara
(00:45):
shares how she went from classical studies to engineering
to finding her ideal fit at UBS,proving that with curiosity,
self-awareness, and a growth mindset, your STEM background
can be your biggest asset in finance.
So let's dive in. Hello Zara, real pleasure
(01:08):
finally to have this conversation.
How are you? Very good, thanks.
And well, the pleasure is mine. Thanks for having me here.
Yeah. And the reason why I'm so
excited about this is that we are roughly about halfway
through this series we've been doing with a variety of of women
across the industry. And you are someone that really
stuck out to me for a number of reasons, but mainly because of
(01:29):
your your background, which I know we're going to dive into
because I think a lot of students or young professionals
who are thinking about career decisions, you know, you've
worked an intern at Tesla, Microsoft, McKinsey, you're now
at UBSI think this will be superinteresting, particularly for
people as well from a non finance background, especially
(01:50):
those from the STEM subject matter as well.
And also location wise, you know, you've been to Italy,
Germany, Japan, Switzerland, so,so much there.
So perhaps we can start from thetop like we do with all of our
guests and take me back to, you know, when you were a student,
your childhood, what were you thinking career wise?
And then we could build up to the present day and what you're
(02:12):
doing. That would be great.
Sure, sure. Thanks for that.
Of course. So I'm originally from Milan.
I've been growing up there in the outskirts of Milan for I
would say 1920 years of my life before I started moving around
like a spinning top. And as I was growing up, I grew
up as the first of four siblings, which I always like to
(02:33):
mention because I think it really shaped me as as a person
going on also career wise. And I think if there are any
listeners in listeners in the crowd that can relate as as
first kid, you, you know, you'rethe first one you really need to
stop on top of stay on top of ofparents expectations.
And you need to go out discovery, understand yourself
(02:55):
and you really don't have anyonein front of you showing you the
path. So I think that really I brought
that with me along my journey and well, during Milan, I had
the, you know, the basic education for myself.
So I started very far away from where I am today, both
figuratively and, and, and physically, geographically
speaking, because I started out in classical studies during high
(03:18):
school. So I was studying like Greek,
Latin, ancient languages, dead languages, as they called them.
But also that I think shaped me very much as a person, as a
person in my way of thinking andcritical thinking especially.
And you know, when you spend your days on great thinkers of
the past, you really learn to question everything.
(03:38):
And I just brought that along with me across my journey.
And when the first pivotal moment came, you know, choosing
what to do during uni, I think it was the first time I applied
a way of decision making and thinking that that I brought
along with me, which was I've always tried to go beyond what I
(03:59):
already knew and what I already experienced.
I would say that's a bit of my red thread throughout my life.
And in that case, you know, I did a lot of, you know,
literature, Italian and not, nota lot of math.
And I really just liked that. And I felt I was missing that
piece. So I said, what are you not to
move in completely to the other side of things?
And that's how I pivoted to engineering.
(04:21):
Basically. It's not a common move to do for
people from classical study to engineering, but I just felt it
was right and it could complement myself as a person
and as an academic student at the time I joined, specifically
industrial engineering, which I,I find is a really good path
because you can really blend, you know, the engineering side
of it, physics, chemistry, all of that with more managerial
(04:44):
skills and understanding and, you know, a company.
And at the time I was kind of sick, honestly, of not
understanding like titles of newspapers with, with the
economies. And I think that really could
give me an edge. It did.
So it was a great choice in terms of content, but
specifically really helped me tolive kind of experiences that I
wouldn't have not lived otherwise.
(05:06):
So university really gave me thechance to travel around.
Basically, I started with my first experience in Hamburg, in
Germany. And again, there was a pivotal
moment for my life. I just understood that that's
what I wanted. I wanted to go abroad, live
different experiences, know different people.
It just enriched me so much thatI knew I needed to do it all at
(05:28):
once. So when I came back, I already
knew I wanted to go abroad again.
Comment hit As for many people, it kind of changed my life.
So I stayed in Milan for the time being.
I kept on my master's studies with, I kept on basically
management engineering. So it's the same as industrial
engineering, but you take a little bit of more managerial
path, let's say. And as I was there, I managed to
(05:53):
enter a double degree degree program, which is called QTAM,
which stands for Quantitative Techniques for Economics and
Management. Because I realized I really
wanted to stay on the quant side.
So yes, managerial side, but I really wanted to master quantity
stuff, let's say. And also because that allowed me
to do 2 additional exchanges. The first one I did in Munich
(06:15):
and the second one in in Tokyo. So all of these academics
experienced, you know, enriched me so much both academically,
professionally, and I'll get there in a second, but
especially as a person. And, and I've brought that with
me until today. I felt like uni was not enough.
So I needed to do some professional experience.
(06:35):
And as I'm, you know, COVID hit as I was at home, it just
happened that I could get an internship at Microsoft and I
was working on IoT and clouds applied to different industries.
One of them was energy and sustainability.
So I loved my time at Microsoft.I, I really liked it, but I just
understood that tech was not forme.
(06:56):
What was for me was the industryI was applying tech to.
So, you know, energy and sustainability.
And that's how then it was much easier the second time when I
needed to choose an internship. So it didn't just happen.
I needed to, you know, select a company.
I knew I wanted it to be in the energy space, energy transition
space specifically. And that's how I ended up in
(07:18):
Tesla basically, And I don't know if many people know, but
Tesla don't only have the vehicle business, they only
hold, they also have an energy storage business.
So that's what I was working on.Again, I loved it, but I was
there. I realized I didn't quite like
staying on one product, one company.
I really like to see more of that.
(07:40):
So more companies, more projectsjust have more of a systemic
view. And I felt like the financial
industry could give me that. And also another thing I
realized was I, I always was driven by this idea of having an
impact. And I realized, you know, you
really can do that faster when you can direct money.
That's how I think our world works.
(08:01):
And that's basically how I was reached side of the table.
So from the investee, from the company to the investor side of
things. And I ended up in UBS, where I
am today in their, you know, sustainable investments area
within private markets where also infrastructure sits and
where I undertook a credit program, which I just finished
like a month ago actually. And yeah, where I'm working also
(08:25):
today in the infrastructure equity business basically.
Oh, thank you so much. That's such a, a great
explanation of, of your background and actually you
answered what was probably goingto be one of the things I was
going to ask about why the pivots through these industries.
But what you said made a lot of sense.
But perhaps I could reshape thatquestion a little bit and ask
perhaps. I think a lot of people find a
(08:46):
lack of confidence to be able totry to have the self-awareness
or assess their present situation and whether they're
satisfied and then making that leap to then move.
You've done that it seems like quite a few times from the what
you were studying originally at school to then going engineering
to then going into these companies and going, you know,
(09:08):
it sounds very definitive, your process and it all makes logical
sense. But so many people I think would
struggle to take that leap of faith and back themselves and
make a transition like that. Is there any like process that
you apply to like self review your situation and your
progression? Yes, yes, 100%.
(09:29):
Look, the first thing is you need to realize it's a process,
right? So it's a journey.
So I would have never guessed even just two or three years
ago, I would have been here today.
So every step of the way kind ofled me to the next one.
And that was only possible because of two things.
I think the first one is I was always genuinely curious.
(09:49):
So I, you know, pushed for to learn more, to, to know more.
And I said yes to everything because of not to everything.
Sorry. I said yes to a lot of things,
but I said yes to opportunities when they arise, like it
happened with Microsoft. I'll make a couple of examples
now, but I said yes to opportunities and I seek for
more when I felt like I didn't have the kind of opportunity I
(10:12):
wanted. And the second bit is I could.
As I said, it was not really a random choice, but it was a
strategic choice. And that's just because of the
self-awareness I developed through time.
And I think we are not taught this enough in university.
You really need to spend time tothink about yourself, who you
are, what you like, what you don't like.
(10:33):
And it's OK not to have it all, you know, figure it out day one.
But I'm quite sure your gut feeling already tells you, you
know, at least the direction. That's how I felt.
I had the direction, but I was not quite sure.
And I feel like I kind of adjusted with time better and
better. And to make you, you know, real
examples of that. So the experience in Microsoft
(10:55):
was was, you know, it just happened to me.
I was doing one of those business challenge in university
as as the ones you probably proposed as amplify me to
students, right. So companies came to Polytechnic
of Milan where I studied and Microsoft was one of them.
It was like a 10 day challenge and then they were interviewing
people they liked and that's howI got my into chip.
And you know, I said yes, it wasnot obvious because I never
(11:19):
thought about tech, to be totally honest.
And also, this is very Italian specific, but it's not common to
work as you study, you normally finish your studies and then you
go on working, even though I don't agree with that.
But it was at the moment I felt insecure, like shall I, you
know, be behind with my studies,be behind with my exams.
(11:39):
At the end I just said yes. So that's that's the first
point. Yes, the opportunity.
And as I was in it, I kind of explore different things.
And you know, as I said, I was working with IoT, which by the
way, is Internet of Things applied to different verticals.
And one of them was energy. My gut feeling told me, you
know, go there and I started, I said, I like this.
(12:00):
I told this to my manager. I was very vocal about it.
And I started, you know, just get more projects in it and get
involved and work more on that, even though it was my, you know,
my prior, prior responsibility, primary responsibility, sorry.
And that's how I developed at least a bit of an understanding.
And by the end of it, it was sixmonths.
(12:20):
I was even an offer, but I said,look, you know, I realized tech
is, you know, not my thing. I literally sit down and made a
list of things. What did I like, what I didn't
like or what I would do differently.
At least what I liked was to have an impact.
You know, Microsoft is huge and they do a lot in terms of
impact. And I knew I just wanted to keep
on with that. And 2nd, I really liked that,
(12:43):
you know, energy sustainability piece.
So in a piece. So I knew I wanted to, to stay
within that. What I didn't like was that it
was very qualitative as a job, which, you know, might fit some
people didn't fit me. I needed more numbers.
So I just kept this within my head for the next step.
And when the next step came, eventually I was in Munich and I
(13:03):
needed to find an internship andat the same time I was
developing those interests. So in general, I really
encourage people to study and work not at the same time, but
in the same period of time, because I could study energy
markets in Munich because I knewI liked it and you know, I was
still in university, so I could do that.
So I really encourage people to to double down on what they feel
(13:25):
they like. And it was much easier for me to
to choose Tesla because I knew that was a sector.
So when I entered Tesla, the kind of same thing happened.
So I started in an operational logistics role, which I really
liked, but not like LOF. Just to give some context, Tesla
produces these big batteries, they're called Megapacks.
(13:47):
So it's like big fields of battery storage, utility scale
basically. And I was working to bring
basically logistic wise those megapacks from America to the
EU. And then an opportunity came
basically one of the team members left very senior
actually, and she was working more on the energy trading side.
(14:09):
So these batteries trade energy with the grid when they are
operating and you know, there was no one available.
I was an intern at the time. I said I can take some of that
over, of course with some support.
But that's, that was my first interaction with energy markets
and energy trading and finance somehow.
And I just found I loved that completely and I just stayed
(14:31):
there. So when the internship finished
again, I did the same thing. I said, what are the things I
liked? What are the things I didn't
like? And I started for the first time
having a list of what are the things I don't want to
compromise on, you know, so there are things you can give
and leave, but there are things you really don't want to
compromise on. And for me, that was first.
I want to have an impact. Again, I'm not going to work in
(14:53):
a sector when I don't feel like I'm having an impact, which
means both in my case was also like sustainability wise, but it
can really just mean also work on projects that, you know, I
can see live and, and make difference in general in our
society. It doesn't have to be
sustainability related. For me, it was, so I want to
have an impact. I want to work in the energy
(15:14):
sector, energy transition sector.
I want to have and that was the Third Point, a really quant job.
Again, what I was doing was morequantum the first time, but not
enough. I want more numbers.
I want to think for things. And the last one, which is what
I mentioned maybe before is in Tesla.
It was a great company, but it was 1 product, you know, only
(15:35):
Megapacks for Tesla. And I felt like I wanted to see
more, more projects, more product, more companies.
And through a little bit of research and speaking to people
and probably we'll get there through the conversation, I
realized finance can could, could give me that, that edge
basically that that what I was looking for was there.
(15:56):
And so that's basically how I I made the switch.
And when I enter UBS in the sustainable investing practice
in private markets, in infrastructure, I kept on that
thinking and still I do today. So as I took every rotation,
I'll just make a very practical example, infrastructure equity,
I loved it, but I felt like I missed the depth part of it.
(16:18):
I didn't know how depth worked. And that's why my third rotation
was in leverage finance and structure finance, which
basically lend to this project. So it's not equity, but it's the
debt side of it. And now I feel more complete.
So in general, it was a combination of really trying to
complete myself and really stay authentic and true on the things
(16:40):
I didn't want to compromise on. And you know, to the students
listening to this, I'm not saying it's not scary.
It is super scary as you're there, especially if you're the
first one, especially if you don't have anyone in front of
you saying this is going to work, but this is going to work.
Like I know when you're there, you think I was thinking, and
you can ask my friends, like what if I'm not good at this?
(17:00):
What if finance is not for me? Or you know, as an industrial
engineer student, you really feel like you only have one
option after your master studies, which is consulting.
Like everyone just goes in consulting.
And I know it's scary to take another Rd. but it's going to
pay off, I assure you. And not only in the long term, I
think really also in the short term because you're just going
(17:22):
to get where you want much faster.
And I think a lot of people spend time working for their CVS
to get there, but they don't know what there is, they don't
know what they want. So really spending that time
thinking what you want and then you can think how you get there
really pays off. And it's going to build that
confidence that you're speaking about.
(17:43):
Like the confidence I have now, it's not the confidence I had
2-3 years ago. Because every step you take,
you're like, what? It worked out.
I actually loved it and you alsoenjoy the journey by the way, in
between because every step you take, you take it very
consciously and because you wantit, not because someone told you
to do so. And really builds that
confidence. And it helps you build your
(18:06):
story, which I think is a super underrated and underestimated
skill that you need to have, butreally build building your
story, which is an authentic one.
It's not built up. It's really like your own,
really gives you an edge. Also in interviews, like very
practically, I was told this when I got into UBS, like you
just had a good story, right? It's, it's not made-up, it's
(18:26):
authentic. And and that's going to really
give you an edge. And the story you built is a
combination of, yeah, your journey, but also coming up with
that list of things you don't want to compromise on, which
makes your red thread through, yeah, your journey.
Yeah, such great advice. And actually, what really
resonated there was when you, you know, you're talking about,
(18:49):
you need almost experience to figure things out and figure
yourself out. And yeah, a lot, so many
students I interact with just have this preconceived idea and
they are always quite, almost restricted in the narrowness of
their view thinking, right? I've got to make the right
decision from the beginning, andthat's going to define me for
(19:11):
the rest of my career. But you're absolutely right.
How do you even know really until you've had these genuine
experiences? Well, look, we covered quite a
lot there. So I'm, I'm quite, quite keen to
move on to some of the things that would be more specific for
particularly STEM students because we, we encounter and
work with a lot of them. And there is this increasing
(19:32):
interest of financial institutions for people of that
discipline. I guess for those students like
yourself, they're not always thinking finance 1st.
And so I guess a question to start with that having spoken to
you before, you were in good parts self-taught somewhat when
it came to finance. And you mentioned listening to
podcasts and kind of taking it upon yourself to be proactive
(19:53):
with your own learning. I just wondered the biggest
knowledge gaps that you had to bridge then when you came into
finance because I, I guess it can be quite intimidating for
someone who's not an econ student and then kind of
practical advice that people could take.
When entering a a completely newindustry as well.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, of course. So yes, also to to to give some
(20:17):
reassurance to the people listening to this.
Like when I started thinking about finance, I couldn't
distinguish UBS from a BlackRock.
I didn't know the difference between public markets and
private markets. So you really can get there.
So this is for the people listening.
In my case, I think the biggest knowledge gap at the beginning
(20:38):
for the way I think. So I'd really like to have a big
the big picture first. I really like to understand how
you know the system works. And that was just really blurry
to me. I was from from someone that
doesn't study finance or it's not really interested into it
since the beginning. I think it can get very abstract
very easily. So you really don't know who the
players are, what's exactly going on with, you know, the
(21:00):
money in the system. And that took me probably the
biggest part of my time. But when I had that figured out,
everything was much easier. Again, probably that's my way of
reasoning and thinking for things.
But getting first the big picture and then moving on to
basic financial concepts, that'sa gap I had.
(21:22):
So from, you know, time value ofmoney, of course, I've seen a
bit of accounting and, and all of that as I was going through
my management engineering university path, but, but it was
not the same thing. So you really need to, it's not
only you understand it, it's you, you master it, you own it.
So that took me quite a while. And all those concepts like also
(21:43):
on other asset classes like bonds and why the price of bonds
move with interest rate. All of that, all of that was
actually during my Tokyo exchange.
And as you mentioned, I just wasvery curious in it.
I just was again, kind of sick, kind of sick of not
understanding how the whole system worked.
And I started listening to podcasts and reading journals
and you need to be very selective with it.
(22:05):
So there is so much information out there.
So I spent some time selecting what I thought was the podcast I
just liked not even they were good.
I liked them. I liked listening to them
spending my nights, you know, with my bike and just listening
to that. You need to enjoy the process of
learning. And by the way, that's, that's a
very, very good way to understand if you like finance
or not. If you spend, you know, entire
(22:27):
days and hours informing yourself and you like the
process, that's, that's an easy choice.
If you just cannot listen to that stuff, that's probably not
your journey. It's OK, right.
In my case, it was something I really like.
I was lucky enough to be able tochoose some uni courses there in
Tokyo. That helped me a little bit.
So that was a bit my process before the interviews.
(22:50):
And then of course, when you, you need to be a strategic with
your preparation of the interview.
I was, you know, applying for private markets.
So of course, I built more knowledge around that.
And then the whole journey continued as I started with UBS,
of course. And by the way, I really
recommend people if they can, especially STEM students to go
on a graduate program journey because you can rotate.
(23:13):
It's OK. Again, if you don't have it all
figured out from day one. I did not.
I had a gut feeling for what I liked and then as I was in, I
could rotate in three different teams, see different part of the
bank and that really complementsyour knowledge.
And I took on the CFA level 1 exam.
So of course, it was like one year and a half or two of an
(23:34):
intense financial, you know, study and, and just building up
my knowledge. It took quite a while, but it's,
it's it you can do it. Basically, you can do it.
And if I can give some advice tothat might be a bit more
structured maybe. I think it's a combination of
hard skills and soft skills. So on the hard skills side, as I
(23:56):
said, I think it's it's three steps, right?
First one, you understand the big picture, depends on how your
mind works. But I think it's better to start
top down and then you go into the details because finance can
get very much into the details. So start from the big picture,
understand how the ecosystem works, and then you move on a
little bit more in detail and you understand the basics, the
need to know. So I need to know some basic
(24:18):
concepts. You cannot be in the financial
industry, even if you are in private equity.
You need to know what bonds are and how they work, for example,
just just one example. And then once you have that
basic knowledge of everything, you move on and you move on to
the in depth knowledge. But that's only for your area of
interest. So in my case, it was private
(24:39):
markets or specifically infrastructure.
And then with time you realize what you really need to know,
what you need to master. And that requires so much time,
much more than you know getting to the basic knowledge.
So it's OK that it's a process with time, but I would say these
are the three layers of knowledge you need, you need to
you need to gain. And on the soft skills side, the
(25:01):
1st and most important thing is keeping a growth mindset.
Literally that was probably the biggest switch I had in every
pivot I did through through my life.
You need to be ready to look like the idiot in the room.
It's OK like you don't, you don't know you come from a
different background and it's OKnot to know.
(25:23):
You need to be comfortable with being uncomfortable.
And you know, and I said growth mindset, there is this, this,
this great book about the sorry,the comparison between growth
mindset and a fixed mindset. And I, I was, I used to be very
much in a fixed mindset. So you know it all.
You kind of look like an idiot. You, you, you need to be on top
of everything the whole time. But that creates a fear of
(25:45):
failure that really keep holds you back in learning more and,
and, and it can, can be really detrimental throughout your,
your career and your life in general.
It's not only career wise with the growth mindset, you just let
go of that fear and you just, you're open to learn to not to
know and also seek advice and help.
(26:07):
That's what I did a lot. Maybe, you know, be strategic
about it. Don't, don't ask your, you know,
managing director for a concept you should know, but go to your
peer and ask. Look, that's what I did when I
started with UBS. I, I had my circle of graduates
and I said, look, guys, there are certain things I really
don't understand. Can we sit down?
And you woke me for it. And that's how you literally get
(26:27):
very, very fast to the same level where they are.
Not only that, but you come witha different background.
So you are actually, you have a match.
You're much more complete in in that sense.
So growth mindset is, is the enabler just for your life in
general, I think, but especiallycareer wise.
Second, you need diligence and hard work.
I'm not going to lie about this.You need a lot of hours to go
(26:49):
for stuff. And as I said, that's also a
good way to understand if you like it or not.
Again, be selective, be strategic, Don't Start learning
everything of everything. But once you have the big
picture, you just go, OK, this is what I should know.
These are the websites I really like.
These are the postcards I reallylike.
Give yourself time. Don't think that in a month
you're going to be a finance savvy.
(27:09):
It's not going to happen. But you know, I can say one year
and a half, two years, I feel quite confident at the with the
level I am at right now. So it's not even like a 10 years
journey. Of course it's a lifetime
journey, but you know, to build the basic blocks, you can do it
basically. And the last piece is again, on
(27:29):
the sub skills side, speak to people.
It's not only networking, but really speak to people because
people are going to give you a real sense of what they're doing
and where they are in the system.
Again, you're going to build puzzle like your your little
puzzle like this. And I spoke, you know, to people
in fields that right now, I knowthey really don't, they're not
(27:52):
done for me. Like it's a bond, but I spoke to
a lot of people because I thought maybe, you know, maybe
that that can be for me. I spoke to a person in that
field and I said, OK, that's this is all my stuff.
And you don't need to go for an interview to realize that you
just speak with someone. And I mean, of course, people
then can also open for you opportunities.
That's the main probably goal ofnetworking, but it's not the
(28:12):
only one. Sometimes it's just about
building that knowledge and, andpeople can really help you with
that. If you're lucky like I was, you
can also have your circle of beers during uni or during, you
know, your graduate programs or when you work to, to also be in
that knowledge together. I would say yeah, as a whole,
these are the advices I would give probably.
(28:33):
Yeah, your your example there ofthe growth versus fixed mindset.
I think there's a lot of anxietyand fear, particularly when you
talk about large financial institutions, so big investment
banks that you have to know all the answers.
And I guess you're kind of semi groomed that way to get through
the application process. You know, you should notice
(28:54):
basics about derivatives, you should know what's going on in
global macro. But I, I guess then my question
is more the culture, say the culture at UBS then.
So is it cultivating an ability to be able to have to question
things or to be able to, you know, within reason, obviously
to be able to take risk or to fail to make decisions to ask
questions? Is that, is that the atmosphere
(29:16):
just to kind of, I guess, going demystify the myth of what
investment banking is like as anindustry more more broadly?
Yes, yeah. The answer to that is, is yes.
And I think this has, you know it, it might have changed with
time. I'm not sure how it was like
some years ago, but I think without like it's critical to
UBS and to all other companies in my opinion to have that
(29:39):
because once you lose that a lotof potential in people and you
just lose people that might havea great potential and just kind
of express it because they are this fear of failure.
So in my case, yes, it's, it's the case and it really helps.
And I really also again, it's about being strategic, right?
You, as you said, it's within reason.
So you need to understand when is the right time to make a
(30:02):
question. But sometimes it really takes
just to stall and you ignore your ego for a second and say, I
said this quite a lot of times in calls like, can we stop there
for a second? Sorry.
I might, you know, without the sorry, actually I should know
this. But can you help me refresh that
for a second? Like there are ways that you can
(30:25):
also rephrase the simple, I don't know.
Or it's, it's much better to take, you know, take a step
forward and say, you know, can you help me figure that out
rather than say, yes, I got this, leave it to me.
And then you just as I did also a couple of times, really don't
recommend because then you're just left with yourself and you
just don't know stuff and you don't believe her, you know.
(30:48):
So I really suggest find yourself an organization that
reason this way and also ask this question in interviews.
You guys are allowed to ask questions in interviews and you
can say, you know, what's, what's the approach of UBS or
whatever is the other bank towards this topic?
Like what is, how is failure treated?
And I, I think there is a lot ofimportance associated to it
(31:10):
finally from all of these kind of organizations.
And I think it really helps because that's the only way that
people really grow and, and learn through time because they
are not held back by this fear of, of just failing, right?
And, and I think it's, I was lucky enough with all of my
organizations, all of these growth mindset actually started
with, with Microsoft back in thedays.
(31:32):
They really made this, they really made of this the, the
pivotal point of their culture. If you, if you look at, if you
look at their share price, when they changed CEO, when Satya
Nadella now came in some years ago, now the share price
started, you know, to go very upright now not but, but it really
(31:53):
went up from what it was. And when I was at Microsoft,
they told me this was the reasonwhy, you know, it's all about
culture that he brought in this topic of growth mindset versus
fixed mindset. And people felt OK making
mistakes and, and asking questions and asking for help.
And that really can have a huge impact also profitability wise,
(32:14):
also share price wise, it's not only, you know, to make people
feel better, it's, it's much more than that.
So if you go and read Microsoft story, it's really focused on
this. And I think every organization
sure, really, yeah, focus on these as part of their culture.
So so just to finish. On this, this segment of the
conversation, one thing is that,as I said, a lot of STEM
(32:35):
students listen to this this podcast.
And I was just wondering, was there anything that you had
learnt from that background thatactually surprised you?
And you were like, ah, perhaps Iactually have an edge.
So the econ students who might not have done this, I've
actually done this before. And actually it's a useful asset
to have. Absolutely.
(32:56):
And. Again, I really want the STEM
students here listening to to bereassured with this look, a STEM
background is really an easy sell.
It's an easy sell. So they want you 100%.
Don't be afraid of that. It's you that need to want them,
but they really want you. When I say they, I mean, you
know, interviewers and financialinstitutions because you bring
to the table. Well, first a different
(33:17):
perspective. But apart from that, some key
skills that you really need in the industry in this industry
first is the logical thinking. And I was told it as a feedback
many times. So it's you have because of your
stand background, especially engineering, but I'm sure it's
the same in, you know, physics and chemistry and all of that.
You have this logical way of thinking, structured way of
(33:41):
thinking of breaking down problems, you know, 123 in in
sub sub problems and you solve all of them in a logical manner
from A to B, from East to C and then so on.
And if you're then also able to communicate to people in the
same structured and logical way,then you got it all right?
So it's a way of thinking you'revery complete if you're also
(34:01):
able to communicate that way of thinking.
And that's extremely appreciated.
That's point #1 because it's a problem solving approach, right?
Second is your are just good with numbers normally.
And they love that. It's not only about being good
with Excel, it's being able to interpret numbers to you have a
(34:21):
lot of numbers and you just makesense of them.
You're you just choose the three, four main numbers that
can help you with the decision making.
And they just love that to be honest.
And you just really need it, especially where I am.
But I think honestly everywhere in the financial industry, you
need to be good at numbers to beable to work with numbers, to
(34:42):
interpret numbers, to communicate numbers again.
So probably the communication pieces is key.
And maybe it's not obvious from a step background, but if you
work on that, you have all the tools then to to have an edge.
Another element is you are acquainted most probably with
anything IT related from coding to you know, Python, you know
(35:04):
what Power BI is, what a visualization data tool is, and
again, they just really need that.
I ended up leading projects thatI didn't want to lead just
because I was the only one, you know, having an understanding of
what Power BI was or how can youwork with that or how is the
data flows of the data system working because a lot of people
(35:28):
don't have that understanding. And as also probably being part
of this generation, we are just more acquainted with all of this
kind of stuff. And plus on top of that, you
also did it in your studies and you can just resell that very
easily. I sold a lot of my, you know,
coding skills, even if I don't code anymore in my daily life in
like in my daily job, I did a Tesla, but not anymore now.
(35:51):
But still they, they like that you can understand and you can
be the person in between basically the coder and the
business because you understand both parts and, and that's
really an edge that you can easily sell, let's say.
Then another one is your technical knowledge, especially
in this case for where I am right now.
(36:11):
So infrastructure, everything that is real and concrete
related, but also specifically specific industries from, you
know, logistics and distribution.
I mean, having that technical understanding of, I don't know
how energy markets work, I wouldan electrical system works or I,
I think not a lot of economics or financial people have that
(36:34):
and, and that really helps, especially if you're targeting,
you know, one of those industries or one of those
sectors. So that really, really helps.
And finally what I mentioned at the beginning, you just bring in
a different perspective. You are new to the system.
You never really studied financial systems before.
So you can bring in new ideas. Even your what you think are
(36:56):
stupid questions are actually very good questions.
And that some people just cannotsee, not because there's not
because they're stupid, but because they have been in the
industry for 20 years. And sometimes you just cannot
see things clearly anymore. And you bring in that
perspective. You challenge that, that piece
that I mentioned at the beginning of questioning
everything. Please try to have that and
(37:18):
don't be afraid to ask questionsbecause you're really going to
make a difference and you're going to have an edge.
So play with all these cards in your interviews because it's
really going to give you an edge.
Also with a lot of people that studied finance and and all of
that, I'm sure that's going to be.
Such reassuring words to to so many and it makes a great deal
of sense. And one of the things you
(37:40):
mentioned earlier was that through, I think it was even
your studies, you were saying you went to Japan, I know you
went Italy, Germany, you're in, you know, Switzerland, all these
different places. I wondered whether I could just
touch on that as to from a perhaps more personal or
professional perspective, like what did experiencing different
(38:00):
geographies, different cultures,what has that given you?
Because I think a lot of people will consider that in terms of
potential career choices early in their career, 100% no.
And. That's that's a critical point,
especially in my life. But in general, it's something I
try to recommend to everyone. Yes, it changed me a lot.
It shaped me so much as a person.
(38:22):
Both. Yeah.
On a personal level, professionally, academically,
everything. I just cannot express how much
it enriched me in general. And that's because of several
things. First and foremost is the people
you meet. So it's both people that then
stay in your life. So maybe friends and, and
colleagues and all of that. But I also mean it in terms of
(38:43):
people you meet in your, you know, in the streets or in the
supermarket. And they just have a different
way of thinking. They have a different way of
seeing the world. And I mean, of course, the more
you go far away, the easier it'sfor that to happen.
Like Japan was the extreme case of that.
But I won't, you know, I'm Italian and also staying in the
European Union. That process happened of just
(39:06):
being able to think, to see things in a bigger way, in a
different way, change perspectives, your way of
thinking changes and that that just enriches you so much.
That's just because of the people you meet and the way they
reason and the inputs they give you.
And sometimes you don't elaborate on the inputs straight
away. And that's why they're, you
(39:27):
know, thinking for things and self-awareness piece really
helps because you need to spend time reflecting back on your
experiences and say, OK, what what I learned from all of these
people because potentially, and I really believe this, you can
learn a lot from every person you meet every day.
Doesn't matter if it's at work or as I said, at the
supermarket, You know, the way you communicate with people and
(39:50):
what people transmits, you can, can really change you as a
person if you again, are selected with the inputs you
receive. So people are definitely the
first point. 2nd is a thing of cultures, right?
It's quite related. But when you change culture,
when you change habits, you really learn new ways of doing
things. It might be work, it might be
(40:12):
their perception of your own self, it might be sport, it
might be whatever. But if you're confined in your
own, you know, bubble of where you've grown and.
Your circle and it's just very different.
It's just very difficult to gainyour perspectives and to do
things a different way. So as I went through, you know,
(40:33):
Italy and then Germany and then Japan and I've been to London a
little bit. Every person has, you know,
different ways of doing things. Every culture has its own way of
doing things and you just absorbthat even without wanting to,
but but you do that and that really enriches you.
Again, Third Point is definitelythe adaptability.
(40:55):
And you, you just become very good at learning fast how to
live in a new country and that learning process that then you
have it, you know, for your daily life.
Then you also adapt it to when you learn a concept or you learn
a project, you're just very flexible with everything.
You know, The first time might be tough.
It was the second stuffer. Sorry, it's, it's a little bit
(41:16):
tough. And the more you go on, the more
it becomes natural. When I move to Switzerland now,
to Zurich for Ubis, it was really smooth because I did this
like so many Times Now that I just learned to do that quick,
to do that without any pain and to actually enjoy the process in
between. And this adaptability,
flexibility, you can really use it then in your everyday life,
(41:38):
in your job. It really gives you an edge
again. And another point is
communication and you're just empathy with people.
I mean, of course, you can also learn languages in between.
That's a big plus. In my case, I learned 2
languages through my, you know, experiences without English, so
excluding English. So that is in general very
(41:58):
useful in, in my case. I mean, I really like languages,
so that's me. But it doesn't mean you need to
learn a language. That's a plus.
But in general, you just learn to communicate with different
people, with different cultures,even when you don't understand
yourself and with, with them. I mean, and that can happen,
especially in Japan, it was a struggle.
It really was when you don't have, you know, they don't speak
(42:21):
English and it's just very difficult, but you still find a
way to understand each other, tofind common ground and to build
from there. I think this, it really helps my
interpersonal skills, communication skills and, and,
and all of that without a singleday on a book like this was all
daily interaction with people onthe streets basically.
(42:42):
So probably all of these elements all together.
And yeah, just a different perspective and how much
everything enriches you so much.And honestly, I wouldn't be here
today, I'm sure, without all of these experiences, even just the
pivot to finance. And this is a very, you know,
practical example. It happened because as I was in
(43:04):
Tokyo, I met two people that I didn't know that was studying
with me. And I was, you know, looking to
apply into consulting and all ofthat.
And I was confronting with them and they said, but why don't you
look into finance, like if you like all of this.
And I was like, yeah, yeah, you know, might make sense, but I
never studied this. But one of these people, one of
these persons and studied the same that I did, so industrial
(43:26):
engineering, just in a differentyear.
So I knew through her that this was possible.
And they, I just sit down with them, got a little bit of
learning from them and that really helped me then, you know,
starting then to learn on my own.
But it didn't start from me only.
It was because of the interaction with other people
and how excited they were about this industry and what was
(43:48):
possible. And they just showed me there
was another way. They helped me think outside of
the box in a way. So, and this came just from my
experience abroad. Basically, I just love the.
The continuity through your journey of just being curious
the whole time and how that suchlike a catalyst for moving
forward and self improvement andnew new experiences, new options
(44:12):
as such such a good kind of concept.
And you know, one of the things I was going to ask, just as
you're explaining, just because I know a lot of students think
this way, but I think I already know the answer.
But I'd like to get your take. And this is the idea that if I'm
a student and I've gone from consulting to tech to finance,
I've gone from this country to that country, they get nervous
(44:33):
that, oh, someone might look at me as a candidate and go, you
don't really look like you've found a landing zone yet.
Now, I'm assuming this is all down to how you explain and
articulate your journey of self exploration and development as
you've arrived at this point. Am I right in that assumption?
And, and how can I guess people can use this?
(44:55):
They've got to see it as a strength, not a weakness, right?
Absolutely. 100% And this boils down again to that
self-awareness piece. And of course you, I mean you
look like you don't know what you're doing.
If you don't know what you're doing, like if you're going
randomly from one piece to the other and you cannot explain why
or what, not even what you did, but why you did that, then
(45:17):
that's a problem. That's a weakness, but it's a
strength. When you figure it out on the
way you build 1 block after the other.
And as we said before, you buildyour own story around it and you
need time to figure out your story.
Like maybe it's not obvious, noteven to you.
But as you look back, you know, retrospectively, you're like, uh
huh. I mean, I did this because of
(45:39):
this. And you really build your own
red thread. As I said at the beginning that
you can, I mean, it's good for yourself because it really
builds up that self-awareness and that confidence, but it's
also very good to sell to someone.
So the way I went in every interview was, you know, I did
this and this and that because of that.
Not like a shopping list, but building up my story.
(46:00):
And I always ended with, and that's why I'm here.
So you need to guide them through your journey and say, I
learned this, this and that. I realized this, this and that.
And that's why I'm here today because I think you are the
perfect next step for this kind of journey.
So yeah, if you have your story,you can tell it well, and it's
an authentic one. It's not made-up.
(46:22):
Then it's a real strength. And again, it's OK if you don't
have it all figured out the first time, not the second.
Maybe you do a couple of experiences just because they're
good firms. That's totally OK.
But then capitalize on those learnings and choose your third
or fourth step in a rationalizedway, if you see what I mean.
I think what's. So refreshing listening to you
(46:43):
in this whole conversation is that even though you're still,
you know, early in your career, so to speak, it's almost like
you sound so much higher in yourconviction of the clarity of who
you are, what you want, you know, where you're heading.
But that's a byproduct, I think of because of the experiences
that you've had. Whereas a lot of people just
(47:03):
don't give themselves the opportunity to have the
experiences. And it takes just so much longer
to get to that point of realization and self discovery.
So yeah, it's amazing. Final, final sections, then
maybe some practical tips and particularly again, speaking to
the the STEM students, but I guess more broadly, and that is
for one for young people in STEMwho are curious about finance.
(47:26):
What do you think is the best place to start?
I think you said it earlier, it's a little bit overwhelming
at the beginning and you were saying about very specific
selection of of sources. So a little bit more on that.
And then also people want to explore infrastructure and
sustainable finance. I I guessing that that's not as
heavy as enriched a database as accessible on the Internet as
(47:50):
say traditional investment banking or trading.
So yeah, those two things, if you have any tips on that would
be great. Of course, of course, so on the
first one to STEM students, but but in general, as I said, I
think it first starts with self-awareness and get a bit of
direction. So if you're interested into
(48:11):
finance, why is that? You must have a gut feeling for
something, right? So first, really things think
through for like your previous experiences, if you have any, or
maybe you just studied so far, what captured your interest,
what you know what, what is the direction you might be heading
to? Not in terms of role or
institution, Just be more generic with that.
(48:32):
You know, that list of things. I don't want to compromise on
things I would really like to dothat doesn't mean to it doesn't
have to be a role. It's just a list of things very
generic. But that should point you a
little bit. You know that somehow.
So first get the direction. Then second piece is understand
what you need to understand. So understand what you need to
(48:52):
know. All those building blocks that
we said before. First you get the big picture.
And I know as a STEM student, itis intimidating at the
beginning, but literally it's just all about going in the
Internet and look for, you know,how the financial system works
and how is the, what are the players?
How is the ecosystem. It's going to take you a couple
of days just to have you the bigpicture.
(49:13):
And then you start doubling downin the things you need to know
as basic concepts. Yeah, some, you know, financial
basic concepts you, you might know.
And then you start targeting. You need to be selective with
things. So you understood how the big
picture is, what are the basic knowledge you need to have and
then you start targeting. In my case, let's say you go
(49:35):
with, OK, I really like private markets, I really like infra.
How do I get more knowledge about it or how do I even get
into that? How do I manage to get a first
experience? There is a combination of
things, as we said, first is theknowledge build up on those
skills. If you know that, you know, you
might need a bit of modelling skills, It doesn't mean you need
(49:56):
to be super good at it before you go for an interview, but at
least having a bit of accountingknowledge, know what a model is.
You know, it's, it's, it's step by step.
That's the first piece. So understand what you need to
understand and build up that knowledge.
And then again, speak with people network, but really do
both in your university with, you know, linking is a great,
(50:19):
great tool, but just speak to people as much as you can,
especially if you're targeting, you know, a specific segment or
a specific sector. Really try to reach out to those
people and ask them very specific questions.
And this is going to, yeah, at least first make you understand
if that's really for you or not,or, you know, you might try it
out. And then to get to have the
(50:41):
experience also leverage, as we said, oldest kids that you
already have and in combination with all that you're learning,
they can really help you throughthe interview process and, and,
and to get to a first experience.
And don't settle for the first experience.
I think, I mean, in a way you need to be selective, but also
probably you need to pick up on whatever opportunity you get.
(51:02):
So don't get me wrong there. You don't need to, you know, be
too picky and say, Oh, no, this I don't like or this it's not
for me. I mean, yes, but until a certain
point, I think until it's an internship or even a graded
program, just get a foot in the door.
Honestly, just get there. And then from there again with
this story about yourself and, and building up those skills
(51:25):
with time, with time, you will realize which skills you need to
make the jump. It's much, much, much easier
when you're already with one foot in the door and you kind of
pivot yourself within the industry or within the
organization rather than you figure it all out from the
outside. And then you need to get that
role that is very difficult because it's also a competitive
industry and you know, it, it, it, it might be a little bit
(51:47):
more difficult. So take on the opportunity,
especially internships, go for graduate programs where you can
build up that knowledge, that experience, reflect on that,
take time to reflect on that andthen move on to the next step in
a more conscious way and in a little bit more of a selective
way. That's probably the advice.
And I think I answered also the second question all together.
(52:08):
So this is for infra and privateequity in general when you
target you know build up on the skills network etcetera, but
it's also for any other target you might have within the the
infra needs, sorry within the financial system industry.
All right. Well, look, that wraps up the
episode. So once again, just want to say
thank you for myself and all theteam and find me for sharing
(52:31):
your time and I and I wish you all the best with your continued
role at UBS. Thank you, Sarah.
Thank you very much. Anthony, it was a pleasure to be
here. Thanks.
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