October 27, 2025 • 46 mins
In this episode of the Market Maker Podcast, Anthony Cheung is joined by Joe Little, Global Chief Strategist at HSBC Asset Management, to explore the personal journey and professional insights behind one of the top roles in finance.
From discovering economics by chance to immersing himself in investment classics and landing a role at J.P. Morgan, Joe shares how curiosity and persistence shaped his career path.
He also breaks down the real-world role of a Chief Strategist, explains why clear communication and storytelling are powerful tools in markets, and shares why early mentorship can shape your entire career.
Whether you're a student exploring your options or an early-career professional finding your feet, this episode offers inspiration, practical advice, and honest insight into what it takes to thrive in finance.
(00:00) Intro
(00:56) Joe’s unlikely start
(02:20) Discovering economics
(06:43) Importance of mentors
(12:27) What a strategist does
(20:28) Power of storytelling
(28:05) Nature or nurture?
(32:08) Performing under pressure
(34:41) Working across cultures
(39:51) Life on the road
(42:37) Mindset for success
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
Hello and welcome back to the Market Maker podcast, and today
I am joined by the economics storyteller, Joe Little, the
Global Chief Strategist at HSBC Asset Management.
From his unlikely path into economics to the mentors who
shaped his career, Joe lifts thecurtain on what a strategist
really does, how storytelling can bring to life spreadsheets,
(00:23):
and why clear communication is the secret weapon for cutting
through noise and complexity in global markets.
So Joe, absolutely fantastic to have you with us.
How are you? Thanks a lot, Anthony, for
having me on. Great to see you.
Yeah, very well. Thanks.
Hope you're doing OK too. Yeah, very well indeed.
So perhaps we could just dive straight in.
You certainly didn't grow up around finance.
(00:44):
And I know you mentioned that a time school wasn't easy.
I just wanted to, if you could break down that moment that
economics came into your life aswell.
So what? What was it like in those days?
Do you think? Seems like a long time ago now.
I grew up in the in the West Midlands Aston Villa follower.
And I mean, it's fair to say that I don't come from a finance
(01:09):
background. I haven't got a lot of family
personal kind of connections in the industry.
You know, growing up, I didn't aspire to work in finance.
I probably didn't even know whatit was.
I remember my, my dad said to meto find a passion and just go
(01:32):
for it. Get stuck into something that
you love to do and, and try and try and sort of be the best that
you can be at the, at that, at that thing.
And, and then don't worry about anything else.
And that's always stuck with me.It sounds like it might be it
from the inside of a prawn cracker, but it's always stuck
with me as a as a, as a nugget of of wisdom.
I didn't really know how to do that.
(01:53):
So looking back on what happened, it was a little bit of
trial and error. I didn't have lots of contacts
or people to ask for advice. So it was a trial and error
exercise. I did economics a level probably
as much because I didn't like the other choices rather than
(02:15):
actually knowing what it what itwas.
It was all that maybe a little bit random, but I did.
I was interested in politics, I was interested in current
affairs. I was decent at maths, not the
best and I was decent at sort ofhumanities and could write a
little bit, but again not not the best.
So I sort of had this sense thateconomics might blend some of
(02:35):
those skills the the Jack of alltrades, master of none kind of
idea and it then it is sort of snowball from from there.
So it was a little bit of a random choice and I just loved
it. And then, as you say, I went to
Bristol to do economics. I started reading more and more
(02:58):
Economist magazine. Everybody always says that's a
good place to start. For sure it is.
He's like Paul Krugman's peddling prosperity in his New
York Times articles and in the UK, Will Hutton in the Guardian
or Koletzky, who was writing at the time in the White Times.
These guys were sort of a MartinWolf 2 of course, in the FT.
(03:19):
These guys were sort of like Rockstar economists and I like
the idea of being a city economist.
That seemed that seemed, you know, a good objective.
You I wanted to be in the know and and then, you know, through
the studies, you kind of encounter all of these historic
characters who've had great ideas.
(03:40):
Ideas have changed the world, shaped the world.
Pains or Marshall to Herbert Simon, lots of different sort of
characters that you see in the in the history of economics.
So maybe I had some idea that I could change the world as well.
I don't know. Initially I was thinking I'd go
down the public policy route, add politics, public policy.
(04:05):
That was really interesting areafor me.
I did some internships in that area.
I think I kind of realized quitequickly I wasn't smart enough to
really make a big go of that, and the academic option wasn't
really a choice because my math wasn't good enough.
So then it was sort of scratching around what to do
with this passion, and I came across again, it was books, OK?
(04:30):
I mean, you know, reading, I love reading things like market
Wizards, like Liar's Poker, Barbarians at the Gates.
I came across some of these kindof finance classics, modern
finance classics, classics in a,in a literature sense, but they
told this amazing story of what life might be like in, you know,
(04:55):
financial markets, global, global macro markets.
And, and then the sort of challenge was, well, what do I
do about that? Because I didn't have an
internship, I didn't know anybody in a bank.
I didn't know how to analyze a stock.
I didn't know what debt capital markets were.
I didn't, you know, necessarily even aspire to work in a bank.
(05:17):
I just thought global macro emerging markets.
This seemed pretty, pretty cool and then started applying for
things and I ended up landing a great role at JP Morgan Kasnov
on the macro research team, learned a huge amount.
And then I had a stint as a fundmanager and, and ended up in my
(05:40):
current role as as chief investment strategist.
Probably with hindsight, a little, a little bit of a, sort
of a random walk. It wasn't really planned or
predetermined. I, I'm not sure looking back
that it was even that likely given where I I started from.
(06:02):
But what I did do is, is, is follow a, a passion, follow a, a
Daydream. And I think that's the, the,
the, the one thing that I've continuously tried to do
there's, there's not been a plan.
It's just been a, a, a sequence of kind of following what I was
interested in, good at and hopefully people would pay me
(06:22):
for. And, and I remember you were
saying so when that early part, I'm assuming this would have
been JP Morgan Kasnov, which wasthe importance of having
brilliant early managers to helpgive you perhaps some feedback,
some guidance, some direction. So what was that?
What were those relationships like and what made them
(06:45):
impactful? And what should young people
look for when trying to find these types of people?
Yeah, I think, I think that's soimportant, you know, Anthony,
and it probably gets overlooked because everybody is thinking
about, you know, the role, business card, the the status,
(07:07):
you know, we're all human. I'm not, I'm not criticizing
that, that we're all, we're all human.
That that sense of self, sense of ego, this is important to
everybody. But my take is that a good line
manager is just as important, maybe even more important than
than than the role. And I think early on it, it's,
(07:32):
it's critical. You know, you learn how to
behave, you learn how to act, you learn how to think.
You know, humans mimic each other.
We, we, you want good role models to copy from even now,
you know, I want to work with smart people, people who are
smarter than me, good people, people who are inquisitive
(07:55):
because that's, that's what keeps it going.
But yeah, you're right. My first boss at JP Morgan,
Kasnov, was, I mean, he was justa, a complete polymath.
He had this ability to bring in different themes from different
ideas. He'd be looking at the US
Geological Survey data to kind of tell a story around minerals.
(08:21):
It was the China commodity boom at the time.
He'd be thinking about, you know, some crazy Chad.
He'd be ripping up the format onthe bank's research notes to,
to, to make an exciting point. He'd have a way with words, so a
way to communicate. He'd be reading widely,
psychology, philosophy, quoting different, different analysts
(08:45):
and experts. And, you know, he was super
smart and charismatic. You know, I think maybe the
ultimate chief economist. So he really inspired me and and
taught me how to do research. And we had a trade, of course.
I would work at weekends and Christmas.
I could do enough econometrics to make myself useful.
(09:06):
I could do the data and charts and sort of grant work for him.
But it bought me a ringside seat.
It bought me a seat at the tableto watch him and and and copy
him and and and learn from somebody who I perceived as
being the ultimate sell side economist.
And then again, when I when I moved to asset management on to
(09:28):
the buy side, I was having a stint as a as a fund manager.
Another great, great mentor in my probably my in my later 20s
now, another very experienced generalist investor economist
who taught me a lot about valuation analysis, how to think
(09:51):
about the markets, how to integrate some of the economic
data with what's going on in terms of investor beliefs and
investor views. We spend a lot of time thinking
about looking at the market in athird sort of third party
perspective. Mr. Market.
Sometimes people say Mr. Market,what is Mr. Market thinking?
(10:11):
Incredibly powerful way of framing what is going on in
investment markets. Super important investments as
well. When you're on the other side of
the fence, putting money, investor capital to work to
really reflect on what's your adwith lots of smart people in
markets, Where are you expressing something that's, you
(10:35):
know, a little bit a little bit different?
So yeah, 2, early on I had two. I was very lucky I had two.
Very inspiring managers, mentors, coaches who helped me a
lot. But my, my feeling is that
that's such a big part of it now.
(10:55):
And I think it probably gets underplayed.
It's not just about teaching youthe ropes and giving you some,
giving you some structure aroundthe role, giving you a job
description on a piece of paper.It's it's just about, you know,
mentoring you, inspiring you. So that's really important.
And as much as I can, I try and pay the same thing forward.
(11:19):
Yeah, no, I, I, I couldn't agreemore that that role modelling
is, is so, so important. Certainly in your early career
when you're still trying to figure a lot of things out to
be. Yeah, exactly.
Sometimes you don't need to be told it, you just need to see
it. It's a behavioural thing as much
as it is a a technical thing. Yeah, because you think you know
everything, but of course you know nothing.
(11:40):
And when you see these guys in action Masters, then, then you,
you, you really begin to sort ofhave that rapid learning curve.
Yeah, it's great. I think that's a really
important thing for certainly the the demographics that listen
to us as an audience, it's really great point for them to
(12:00):
hear. So perhaps we could we could
move on and talk a little bit about, you know, part of my job
is to break down what I call thebarriers of finance sometimes,
which is a lot of these complicated words, the jargon.
But when people are thinking about, OK, what potential
careers could I do? And like you said, you read lies
poke and you're like, right, I'mgoing to be a trader.
(12:20):
I read, I'm going to be a work in PE, some of those other books
you mentioned. And it's like, OK, when someone
says a chief strategist or a strategist role in general.
So how does that fit into the the composition of of an asset
manager or an investment bank and how investment ideas become
(12:42):
strategies that shape global portfolios?
How do you connect all of this Ain a kind of the landscape of a
of a firm, but then within a team of individuals as well?
Yeah, that. Thanks a lot.
I mean, the, I mean, the first thing is to say is it is, it
(13:02):
sounds pretty cool and it is pretty cool.
So my role is, is, is, is a senior role in the investment
team and, and ends up being reasonably high, high profile as
as well in terms of our sort of structure management structure.
I, I report to our, our global Chief investment officer and
(13:27):
that's probably fairly typical that you keep the economist,
chief economist, chief strategist quite close to the
leadership of the investment platform.
But of course I'm working with sales team colleagues,
investment team colleagues and other functions within our
organization. My, my role is exactly like you
(13:49):
laid out to be top down South, looking at things from the
30,000 foot perspective, thinking about the, you know,
the, the trends in the economy, what's going on with growth,
what's going on with inflation, what's happening to policy.
I mean, we used to just think that was monetary policy, but
increasingly fiscal industrial policy much, much more important
(14:12):
maybe. And then thinking about the big
markets, what's going on in the in the US, what's going on in
Asia and the global S we used tocall them emerging markets
prefer slightly different phrasethese days.
So there's this kind of global perspective which is not
(14:34):
universal but quite common in buy side asset management roles.
And then global on the other dimension to think about many
different asset classes. So my colleagues are running
investment funds in fixed incomeor inequities or multi asset or
alternative assets. And my responsibility then is to
(14:56):
be able to think about these asset classes from that 30,000
foot perspective, but to think about the whole range of them.
So short term rates, longer termbonds and credits don't markets
in, you know, the West and, and in and in the global South and
the East, currencies, alternatives increasingly such a
(15:17):
big area and those sort of balanced funds mixing up
different asset classes that we we call sort of multi asset
areas. And So what I try and do with
that is 3 things really. Firstly, I'm working very
closely with the investors, the fund managers, identifying and
(15:41):
building a sort of core scenario, risk scenarios, trying
to sort of plot out what it means.
What does growth and inflation and policy look like under a
central case? What does that imply for what
happens in the US or in China orin other economies?
And then mapping that, connecting the dots into
investment markets as well, doing the same for more
(16:05):
optimistic view of the world andmore pessimistic view of the
world thinking what have we missed?
What could first banner in the works, Neglected risks.
That's all a big part of it. So in that sense, we're
contributing my me and my team, contributing to the investment
decision making process, the investment outcomes.
(16:28):
The second thing I end up doing,which again, is kind of common
to my role is cheesy storytelling and, and great fun
things like joining you on, on the podcast today.
I mean, I spend a lot of time onthe road meeting clients,
meeting prospects, talking to investors, other other
(16:50):
stakeholders within the context of the sort of HSBC big group,
speaking at conferences, doing podcasts or TV or all that sort
of thing. And what I'm doing there is
representing the views of the investment team, sharing our
ideas, research, sharing our house view.
(17:13):
We have a house view approach and, and hopefully saying
interesting, sensible things. You're broadcasting a killer
charts on, on LinkedIn or whatever it might be.
And, and because of the amazing footprint of HSBCII, end up
(17:36):
traveling a lot around the worldto some amazing places to meet
some incredible investors with, you know, very great influence
and, and, and and sort of outstanding track records.
Last week I was in India, for example.
Yeah. And then the final piece, the
(17:57):
third piece is that, you know, Idon't do all this on my own.
It takes it takes a village. So I have, I have a great team
of economists, strategists, quants who helped me.
And I have the great honor pleasure of sort of coaching,
managing, looking after them, mentoring, other sort of
(18:20):
leadership responsibilities as well within my role.
So yeah, there's lots of different elements there.
So I'm a bit more research focused, a little bit more
analytical, some a bit more sortof extrovert storytelling.
And, and, and then the idea of of sort of looking after
(18:43):
mentoring coaching is, is a big part as well of, of what I end
up doing. I don't know why, but in my in
my head, I'm forming like this stage with a band and your quant
was on drums. You're, you know, you got your
Chartist on on the bass and thenyou're effectively a front man.
(19:03):
Well, why not? I mean what why?
We've often told the story aboutit in terms of cricketing,
fielding positions or a footballformation.
Look, when you're when you're building a team, don't want
identicate people with the same skills that that doesn't help
(19:23):
you achieve the goal. That doesn't help you act like a
high performance, high performance team.
You want different skills, different perspectives.
You want an argument and a healthy discussion.
And and so like you say, we recognize that there are special
specialty skills, specialist skills that we we need in our
(19:48):
in, in our group. I mean, that's true from my team
and my silo block of work, but it's true in investment
management, asset management generally and probably true in
many, many walks of life. Having that diversity of skill
set and ability, cognitive diversity critical to enable us
(20:12):
to make high quality decisions on a sustained basis.
Well, on, on the previous shows,you know, we'll have the, the
maths geniuses and the, the quants and that.
But that's not why I want to talk to you, because the role
that you fill is definitely, youknow, the one around
storytelling. And one of the things I thought
(20:33):
would be really cool to unpack was that in a world obsessed
with data, you know, which seemsto be through there, the
advances in technology, we continue to lean further toward
that direction. You know, storytelling.
I mean, my assumption is that actually it becomes even more
powerful. But but how is that?
(20:55):
How do you define storytelling as an edge?
How does that tie to macro research and what makes a good
communicator in your perspective?
Yeah, I mean that. And so that's a great question
and I quite like the Monica the storyteller.
So thank you very much for kind of imposing that on the on the
(21:16):
podcast theme. Now this This might sound a bit
daft, but have you seen the movie Inception?
Leonardo DiCaprio? Oh, of course.
I mean, that is, that's just such a brilliant movie.
But I I've often thought about telling the story in the context
of that movie because that's ultimately what you're trying to
(21:37):
do. You're trying to land an an
idea, a, a theme, a way of thinking about the world, a, a
particular anecdote or charts ora trade idea, market insight.
You're trying to land that in, in somebody's mind, someone's
subconscious. So you know that.
(22:00):
Yeah, that thinking about that idea of, of, of, of inception, I
think is, is helpful. And of course it elevates the
importance of the story comparedto number crunching,
spreadsheets, all the other elements.
That's not to say that they're not important.
You have to do the work first. You you have to do the work
(22:23):
first. So you, you know, we, we like to
think about research as being a,a sort of an iceberg.
You know, you're only ever see that, the tip of the iceberg,
but there's a huge amount of work that's going on underneath
the surface in terms of developing ideas and, and
insights. Do you have to do the work 1st?
(22:45):
And that's a lot. But my approach is that that's
maybe a little over halfway. And what makes good analysis
great is then how you tell the story, the art of, of telling
the story. How do you want to land that
message? It's the inception sort of
thing. So do you think, I mean, a lot
(23:07):
of, a lot of my work is spent doing interesting visuals or
writing or, or speaking at investor events or, or meeting
with, with investors. So you know, the way the
question I would always ask is what message do I want to leave
the audience with? What conclusion do I want to
(23:30):
leave the, the the reader with? What do you want them to
remember? And then this is the sort of the
art of of storytelling. It it's, it's definitely not
telling people everything that, you know, with a 100 page flight
pack bumps. People do that.
So I think you've got to want totell the story and curating,
(23:56):
knowing what to leave out is a really kind of critical first
part to that art of, of, of storytelling.
And particularly for analytical people, you've got to fight that
natural urge to show them everything you know.
So I sometimes say to my colleagues and, and others that
(24:19):
we want to simplify as much as possible without crossing that
line into being simplistic. And, and that's really the sort
of the first I, I idea. I think the second thing is
that, you know, stories are not about data and spreadsheets and
charts. Stories have emotional content.
(24:39):
They have a beginning, a middle and an end.
So you need a structure, but stories make you feel something.
So I, I think, you know, you need plots, you need characters,
you need humor. My colleagues tell me I have the
world's worst selection of dad jokes.
(25:00):
But what you've got to remember is the bar for humor at polite
business conferences is incredibly low.
So, so, but you, you need, you have to make the audience or the
round table or, or the reader, you have to make them feel
something. You have to try and make a
connection in order to make yourmessage memorable and then
(25:23):
through it to land for it to achieve that in in Inception
event. So I think there's a really big
place for humor anecdotes at thepacing of the story.
And we think really hard about about all of that emotional
content and part of it as as well.
And the third thing I say is youhave to know the audience.
(25:45):
You have to kind of tailor the message to make it, to make it
stick with the audience. We have a engagement with a,
with a whole range of, of different, different clients.
As I mentioned, a lot of my roleis talking with my colleagues in
investment team, the fund management team.
(26:07):
You know, you're meeting external clients or journalists.
You have to account for how people are maybe approaching the
problem or, or, or seeing, seeing the world and, and you
have to make people care. But that overarching idea is,
you know, what do you want to leave the interviewer or the
(26:29):
audience or the investors with what, what's the message that
you want to leave, leave them with?
And as soon as you start thinking about in that way, you
can, you can see what I mean, that, you know, the work is the
research is essential. You have to be relentlessly
curious and, and, and focused and all over the numbers and the
(26:49):
data. But that's not it.
There's there's another slice, which is then making sure that
that those insights, those themes are landing really well
with the different people you'reexchanging and interacting with.
(27:10):
How much of it then listen to you explain it is natural
personality meshing with the ability to think in such a way
as opposed to skills that you learn as you go through?
Because from what you're describing, it sounds like the
natural course is that when you start, you probably do need to
(27:33):
do the number crunching to get the fundamental blocks of how to
analyse the market in a certain way, for example.
And I guess is it at that point quite hard to actually step back
when you are doing the number crunching at that time?
Or can you have that ability, doyou think from from the
beginning to to be able to have the capacity to connect all of
(27:57):
the dots, the bigger picture as well as the data?
Or is that is that a learned skill that develops over time
and experience and accumulation of skills?
Yeah, I mean, it's probably different for for for different
people in in my experience. I mean, I was always fascinated
by the stories and the psychodrama Hayek versus Keynes,
(28:19):
who would win? So I guess I've come into
thinking about macro, thinking about markets with that emphasis
on personality stories and plot lines.
But but I think you're probably right it for most people, the
(28:42):
kind of the critical foundationsare, you know, those research
skills, those technical skills. And you build that up maybe in
the 1st 10 years or so of your career, you build that as the
sort of the, the, the foundation, the foundation.
And that, that then that's stabilizes you.
(29:03):
It gives you the, the confidence, it gives you the,
the rigor and the robustness. You've learned your research
skills. And then it's probably then
something that you then develop and move into later to leverage
those skills. And that's probably the right
way to think about it. And of course, it's not to say
(29:25):
that there's not other ways of cutting, cutting the cake and,
and thinking about the issue, but that that I know that's
probably the right way to to think about it.
Look, nobody is. I mean, people are born great
communicators, but you've got tohave something to say.
(29:46):
You know, you can't just waffle and, and, and tell and tell
jokes. But, and I think in many
instances you read a lot about introverts being the most
impressive speakers at conferences.
So that tells you as well that there is a learned element to
it. You can, you can practice and
(30:08):
you can and you can get better. And you know, if you follow some
of those steps around the sort of art of storytelling, then it
does enable you to communicate really effectively and clearly
and powerfully and in an entertaining way without
necessarily having been, I don'tknow, elite debater of the world
(30:32):
in your, in your, in your in your youth.
So I think that's probably the right way to think about it.
But I'm not saying that don't dodon't do an economics degree.
Don't do the CFA. Instead, just focus on telling
stories and reading science fiction.
I mean, I think reading science fiction is a very sensible thing
for everybody to be doing. But you need that.
You do need that foundation because even though it is an
(30:55):
exercise in macro investment market storytelling, you are
telling stories about macro and investment markets.
You need to understand that plumbing those connections, like
I like the process that I talkedabout at the start.
I went through that process myself early on in my career,
trying to understand all those elements, and that's the
(31:18):
foundation. Yeah.
And you mentioned there science,science fiction, and you've
mentioned throughout actually your appetite for consuming
books and reading. And so I just wondered, is there
any other practical tips now that you do this?
Like you say, you're almost a performer in a way.
You go on Bloomberg, TVC, MB, C,you go on big conferences.
(31:42):
Is there some practical tips on managing that stress of the
point of delivery, the performance aspect?
Is there any frameworks that youhave to get you in that mental
space or to get you to perform when that pressure's on in that
moment to articulate those investment ideas, for example?
Yeah, but performing performer is very generous.
I mean, a synonym is clown, I hope.
(32:03):
You're I've gone from rock band to now performer so.
Yeah, I think there is a bit formative aspects to to all of
all of this now. I mean, you're in a conference
making a keynote speech, something that I, I would
regularly do. There's 750 people in the room.
I mean, it is a performance. Sometimes the stage is massive.
(32:24):
There's, it's not like Bruce Springsteen, but you, you know,
there's a, there's an element ofit in a, in a very, very small,
very, very small way. So I think, I, I mean, I think
it is, it is practice. And you know, if you, if go
through that process of, of, of sort of wanting to tell the
story, wanting to get better learning techniques, then you
(32:48):
know, you are constantly finessing and improving that
craft, you're constantly honing your skills.
So I've always thought about it like that, you know, tomorrow is
going to be even better. Tomorrow is going to be even
better. That's that sort of relentless
curiosity, which I, I think you need in, in, in all different
roles in investing, financial services, financial, financial
(33:10):
markets. So I think practice and, and
sort of wanting to improve is, is, is, is a big part of it.
I think trial and error is a bit, a big part of it.
So I'm unlucky now because I've,I've done this role for a number
of years. So I roughly know what works and
what doesn't. But you know, early on you're
bound to make mistakes. So don't dwell on those.
(33:31):
I think there's a it's easy to maybe get a little bit upset or
even disillusioned by things that don't work.
But the whole point of experiments is that some work
and some some fail. So you never know if you don't
give it a go and give it a try. And, and it is, it is, it's that
(33:55):
process, I think Anthony, aroundjust being relentless, keeping,
keeping going. Yeah.
And and and following a following, a passion for
something. Yeah, that that performance
aspect. I know that whenever I've done
big, big talk stuff like that, it's almost like with some of
the, for example, like like a joke in the middle of in the
(34:17):
midst of some technical knowledge you're trying to
transfer. You've kind of tried it a few
times. It's almost like the Fringe
Festival. So before you sell out the O2,
you need to go and do some smallpub back work on your your your
your edge in order to see Walmart.
So it doesn't and then. Actually you tend to have these
go to's that you know tends to land.
(34:39):
But my question then was, given that HSBC has such an
international spread in terms ofthe difference then in culture
and how you learn to identify and deliver what is
fundamentally kind of the same message, but reshaped or
calibrated for a different audience.
(35:00):
Because you mentioned that audience aspect is key for it to
land in the right way. How do you tackle that, like
working across cultures when when clients are going to be
quite different in that way? Yes, our clients are different
in terms of their, their, their interest and focus depending on
where they are in in the world. Some are more interested in
(35:24):
domestic assets, some are more global in their mindset, some
are, you know, come and get it with different, different
questions and and ideas. So you have to tailor your
message to the audience you're speaking with.
Some of it is, is sort of obvious, right?
If I'm, if I'm traveling in, in,in Asia, if I'm going to meet
(35:50):
investors in India, I, I clearlyneed to be prepared for some
questions on how are global investors seeing India?
How are global investors seeing the Reserve Bank of India?
Why is the rupee weakening when all of the emerging market
currencies are strengthening? Those sort of questions are sort
of obviously going to come up. So there's a little bit of
(36:15):
tailoring the, the story and theversion of the investment
outlook that I might deliver. But but as much as anything,
what you want to do is make surethat that, that the message is
at the right level for, for, fordifferent investors as as as
(36:36):
well. That really helps land the
message. It's this inception idea again.
So what we always try and do is have content and materials that
that can scale the slides and visuals that are kind of clear
and powerful and punchy. My colleagues talk about killer
(36:57):
charts. This is what we're searching
for. We're searching for a killer
chart, the best way of visualizing a particular theme
or idea in a powerful way, maybeone that people haven't seen
before, for it to be provocative, but but not in a
simplistic, obvious, boring way.And if you get that right, then
(37:18):
what enables you to do is read the room.
And then you can, you know, you can, you can leverage that
content to either going into theweeds, talk about the very
detail of particular topic or focus on the kind of the key
punchy headlines. And, you know, the, the sort of
(37:42):
social media LinkedIn version is, is, is even more superficial
and sort of high level than that.
But but it still enables us to try to get some of our messages
across. But you're absolutely right.
Traveling around the world, you know, you are aware of different
approaches, different themes, different interests, different
cultures, different ways of doing business.
(38:05):
And, you know, sometimes we evenhave to do the, the investment
outlook in, in different languages.
My Spanish is, I'm learning Spanish, I'm improving, but I,
I, I did do part of our investment outlook in, in
Mexico, indeed that Mexico in Spanish, which was great fun to
try. And the, you know, that makes a
(38:25):
difference to how people see what you're doing and, and how
people feel about your take on, on the world.
So I, I, I think it's as much asanything, it's about being
conscious of that and then trying to enhance what, what
(38:46):
you're doing in order to bring it to people in a, in a more
digestible, clear, relevant, powerful way.
I just wanted to ask them because the kind of segue from
here is you're doing a a lot of travel and travel, I guess in a
sense of it's quite hard to justjet into India, do a conference
(39:10):
and come back. I'm assuming you have to stay
and there's a there's, there's not just a keynote speech.
You're probably there for purpose to meet clients and, you
know, do a bit of a local tour and so on.
So given that a lot of your roleis on the road and a lot of our
listeners are thinking about their future careers and this is
a component of it, but you're still travelling a lot, even as
(39:34):
you're now in a senior position,whereas I guess a lot of people
might do travel early in their career.
Just wondered how, how do you balance that, that kind of
commitment to be the best you can be at your job, but also you
have a personal life to also manage at the same time?
Yeah, I mean, it's a, it's a, it's a blessing and a curse.
I I suppose you, as you say you're you're juggling a.
(40:02):
Personal commitments, family commitments, but but the my my
role is it's important to be to be visible in many interactions.
You know, you need to be there. You can do a lot on Zoom.
Of of course, that's an incredibly sort of powerful
breakthrough tool in, in terms of us, in terms of enabling me
(40:25):
to be with investors more regularly in, in a, you know, in
a good, in a good format. But nothing beats being with
people meeting, meeting investors, meeting analysts,
meeting policy specialists. So yeah, it's always a case of
trade-offs. I mean, I should say it's not
(40:48):
just my circumstances, not just me.
I've got a good team who helped me.
I've got a number of colleagues in our senior investment team
group who would back me up, helpme out.
And so that's an important part,part of it.
But yeah, I mean, we are a global asset manager.
(41:09):
And with that comes an importantrequirement to travel to be
there with investors around, around the world.
There's not really a getting away from that.
OK, Have to do, You bet. You just have to do your best
and try and deal with the jet lag in the best possible way
that you can. Drink plenty of water.
(41:30):
Yeah, I don't know if you've hadthis one yet, but a friend of
mine had to go to New York, comeback, fly back on Friday, and
then fly to India on Sunday night.
So I had to go a few. Time zone back.
All the way across, yeah. Yeah, Mexico to Hong Kong is a
tricky 1. Yeah, from London to.
Mexico and the back, there's always to debate which way
(41:51):
around you go because you're basically at the antipathy.
Yeah. So I mean, that's occupational
hazard, Anthony. I think that's the way, the way
to think about it. But you know, it's a team sport.
And I'm lucky enough to have a number of colleagues in
different parts of the world whocan help and also a good team
who can, who can back me up and some of my global colleagues
(42:14):
who, who also can, can help me. And and that's, that's a real
gift. Yeah.
Final question then just before we wrap, which is I guess
easiest way to phrase it, what mindset or way of thinking has
served you most in your career and how can students start
developing that today? Yeah, that, that's a great
(42:38):
question. I, I mean, I think, I think
there's a tendency in, in a research role to think the game
is trying to outsmart everybody else and that it's all about IQ.
I'm not sure about that. I, I, I think it the, the, the
key skill to incubate and, and, and develop is curiosity and a
(43:05):
sort of like a relentless curiosity as as as well.
So I don't know, maybe we say itlike it's a marathon.
It's not a Sprint. Or, or maybe you want to think
about it like Warren Buffett talking about compounding.
Compound it, compound it. So it it's, it's a case of of,
of just keeping at it. I think, I think that's the
(43:27):
that's the key thing it, you know, you would be amazed how
continuous effort ultimately pays off in in some of these
some of these roles. But but it is a case that, yeah,
just keeping at something. I think that's the critical
(43:47):
thing. I mean, there's no getting
around the fact that there are some technical skills and
technical foundations that you need to need to build in.
So it obviously helps if you're kind of interested and curious
in these in these areas. But but I think a process of
keeping out something is, is just the critical thing.
And it seems to me to be what sets apart the people who are
(44:09):
really doing well from the from,from others in terms of in terms
of what I've, what I've seen. So it goes back to that rather
hackneyed piece of advice that my dad gave me when I was
younger, what came out of the prom cracker.
You know, if you can find an area of investment markets,
(44:29):
financial markets, which can be your sort of passion project,
then you know that you're on to something really special.
Then. I mean, I think the advice works
just generally in life, but but you know, particularly thinking
in a markets context for maybe the listeners thinking about
(44:50):
about that. If if you can find that area
that then you're on to win because instantly then you never
work a day, right? It's all fun.
Not quite. You know, you're willing to put
the extra yards in, you're willing to go through that
process of then setting yourselfup and putting yourself in a
position where you can compound up and you have that natural
(45:13):
kind of relentless interests, which can sort of set you apart
from many, many others in some sense, in some cases, people who
are a lot, lot smarter than you.That was certainly my
experience. So I think that's the that's the
key thing. Now, whether or not you can kind
of coach yourself into that mindset would require an awful
(45:35):
lot of self-discipline. I think the more honest way of
doing it is just finding a passion and a purpose.
I know that there's no wrong answers there, you know?
You know, that's very personal thing.
Yeah, no, as you explained it, Ithink it makes total sense in
that one. The passion then ignites the
next step, which drives your curiosity, which brings the
(45:58):
energy and the commitment to want to do more and the desire
to improve and the thirst and hunger for, for more knowledge
and and so on. So, yeah.
Brilliant. Exactly.
Yeah, thanks a lot. And we, we had a prawn cracker
for for starters and desserts. So we're all care.
Joe, absolute pleasure. Thank you so much for for giving
(46:20):
up your time. As we've just heard, I know
you're incredibly busy, so to tograb you for 45 minutes has been
fantastic. Thank you very much.
Great pleasure. Thanks a lot for having me on
the show.
Hello and welcome back to the Market Maker podcast, and today
I am joined by the economics storyteller, Joe Little, the
Global Chief Strategist at HSBC Asset Management.
From his unlikely path into economics to the mentors who
shaped his career, Joe lifts thecurtain on what a strategist
really does, how storytelling can bring to life spreadsheets,
(00:23):
and why clear communication is the secret weapon for cutting
through noise and complexity in global markets.
So Joe, absolutely fantastic to have you with us.
How are you? Thanks a lot, Anthony, for
having me on. Great to see you.
Yeah, very well. Thanks.
Hope you're doing OK too. Yeah, very well indeed.
So perhaps we could just dive straight in.
You certainly didn't grow up around finance.
(00:44):
And I know you mentioned that a time school wasn't easy.
I just wanted to, if you could break down that moment that
economics came into your life aswell.
So what? What was it like in those days?
Do you think? Seems like a long time ago now.
I grew up in the in the West Midlands Aston Villa follower.
And I mean, it's fair to say that I don't come from a finance
(01:09):
background. I haven't got a lot of family
personal kind of connections in the industry.
You know, growing up, I didn't aspire to work in finance.
I probably didn't even know whatit was.
I remember my, my dad said to meto find a passion and just go
(01:32):
for it. Get stuck into something that
you love to do and, and try and try and sort of be the best that
you can be at the, at that, at that thing.
And, and then don't worry about anything else.
And that's always stuck with me.It sounds like it might be it
from the inside of a prawn cracker, but it's always stuck
with me as a as a, as a nugget of of wisdom.
I didn't really know how to do that.
(01:53):
So looking back on what happened, it was a little bit of
trial and error. I didn't have lots of contacts
or people to ask for advice. So it was a trial and error
exercise. I did economics a level probably
as much because I didn't like the other choices rather than
(02:15):
actually knowing what it what itwas.
It was all that maybe a little bit random, but I did.
I was interested in politics, I was interested in current
affairs. I was decent at maths, not the
best and I was decent at sort ofhumanities and could write a
little bit, but again not not the best.
So I sort of had this sense thateconomics might blend some of
(02:35):
those skills the the Jack of alltrades, master of none kind of
idea and it then it is sort of snowball from from there.
So it was a little bit of a random choice and I just loved
it. And then, as you say, I went to
Bristol to do economics. I started reading more and more
(02:58):
Economist magazine. Everybody always says that's a
good place to start. For sure it is.
He's like Paul Krugman's peddling prosperity in his New
York Times articles and in the UK, Will Hutton in the Guardian
or Koletzky, who was writing at the time in the White Times.
These guys were sort of a MartinWolf 2 of course, in the FT.
(03:19):
These guys were sort of like Rockstar economists and I like
the idea of being a city economist.
That seemed that seemed, you know, a good objective.
You I wanted to be in the know and and then, you know, through
the studies, you kind of encounter all of these historic
characters who've had great ideas.
(03:40):
Ideas have changed the world, shaped the world.
Pains or Marshall to Herbert Simon, lots of different sort of
characters that you see in the in the history of economics.
So maybe I had some idea that I could change the world as well.
I don't know. Initially I was thinking I'd go
down the public policy route, add politics, public policy.
(04:05):
That was really interesting areafor me.
I did some internships in that area.
I think I kind of realized quitequickly I wasn't smart enough to
really make a big go of that, and the academic option wasn't
really a choice because my math wasn't good enough.
So then it was sort of scratching around what to do
with this passion, and I came across again, it was books, OK?
(04:30):
I mean, you know, reading, I love reading things like market
Wizards, like Liar's Poker, Barbarians at the Gates.
I came across some of these kindof finance classics, modern
finance classics, classics in a,in a literature sense, but they
told this amazing story of what life might be like in, you know,
(04:55):
financial markets, global, global macro markets.
And, and then the sort of challenge was, well, what do I
do about that? Because I didn't have an
internship, I didn't know anybody in a bank.
I didn't know how to analyze a stock.
I didn't know what debt capital markets were.
I didn't, you know, necessarily even aspire to work in a bank.
(05:17):
I just thought global macro emerging markets.
This seemed pretty, pretty cool and then started applying for
things and I ended up landing a great role at JP Morgan Kasnov
on the macro research team, learned a huge amount.
And then I had a stint as a fundmanager and, and ended up in my
(05:40):
current role as as chief investment strategist.
Probably with hindsight, a little, a little bit of a, sort
of a random walk. It wasn't really planned or
predetermined. I, I'm not sure looking back
that it was even that likely given where I I started from.
(06:02):
But what I did do is, is, is follow a, a passion, follow a, a
Daydream. And I think that's the, the,
the, the one thing that I've continuously tried to do
there's, there's not been a plan.
It's just been a, a, a sequence of kind of following what I was
interested in, good at and hopefully people would pay me
(06:22):
for. And, and I remember you were
saying so when that early part, I'm assuming this would have
been JP Morgan Kasnov, which wasthe importance of having
brilliant early managers to helpgive you perhaps some feedback,
some guidance, some direction. So what was that?
What were those relationships like and what made them
(06:45):
impactful? And what should young people
look for when trying to find these types of people?
Yeah, I think, I think that's soimportant, you know, Anthony,
and it probably gets overlooked because everybody is thinking
about, you know, the role, business card, the the status,
(07:07):
you know, we're all human. I'm not, I'm not criticizing
that, that we're all, we're all human.
That that sense of self, sense of ego, this is important to
everybody. But my take is that a good line
manager is just as important, maybe even more important than
than than the role. And I think early on it, it's,
(07:32):
it's critical. You know, you learn how to
behave, you learn how to act, you learn how to think.
You know, humans mimic each other.
We, we, you want good role models to copy from even now,
you know, I want to work with smart people, people who are
smarter than me, good people, people who are inquisitive
(07:55):
because that's, that's what keeps it going.
But yeah, you're right. My first boss at JP Morgan,
Kasnov, was, I mean, he was justa, a complete polymath.
He had this ability to bring in different themes from different
ideas. He'd be looking at the US
Geological Survey data to kind of tell a story around minerals.
(08:21):
It was the China commodity boom at the time.
He'd be thinking about, you know, some crazy Chad.
He'd be ripping up the format onthe bank's research notes to,
to, to make an exciting point. He'd have a way with words, so a
way to communicate. He'd be reading widely,
psychology, philosophy, quoting different, different analysts
(08:45):
and experts. And, you know, he was super
smart and charismatic. You know, I think maybe the
ultimate chief economist. So he really inspired me and and
taught me how to do research. And we had a trade, of course.
I would work at weekends and Christmas.
I could do enough econometrics to make myself useful.
(09:06):
I could do the data and charts and sort of grant work for him.
But it bought me a ringside seat.
It bought me a seat at the tableto watch him and and and copy
him and and and learn from somebody who I perceived as
being the ultimate sell side economist.
And then again, when I when I moved to asset management on to
(09:28):
the buy side, I was having a stint as a as a fund manager.
Another great, great mentor in my probably my in my later 20s
now, another very experienced generalist investor economist
who taught me a lot about valuation analysis, how to think
(09:51):
about the markets, how to integrate some of the economic
data with what's going on in terms of investor beliefs and
investor views. We spend a lot of time thinking
about looking at the market in athird sort of third party
perspective. Mr. Market.
Sometimes people say Mr. Market,what is Mr. Market thinking?
(10:11):
Incredibly powerful way of framing what is going on in
investment markets. Super important investments as
well. When you're on the other side of
the fence, putting money, investor capital to work to
really reflect on what's your adwith lots of smart people in
markets, Where are you expressing something that's, you
(10:35):
know, a little bit a little bit different?
So yeah, 2, early on I had two. I was very lucky I had two.
Very inspiring managers, mentors, coaches who helped me a
lot. But my, my feeling is that
that's such a big part of it now.
(10:55):
And I think it probably gets underplayed.
It's not just about teaching youthe ropes and giving you some,
giving you some structure aroundthe role, giving you a job
description on a piece of paper.It's it's just about, you know,
mentoring you, inspiring you. So that's really important.
And as much as I can, I try and pay the same thing forward.
(11:19):
Yeah, no, I, I, I couldn't agreemore that that role modelling
is, is so, so important. Certainly in your early career
when you're still trying to figure a lot of things out to
be. Yeah, exactly.
Sometimes you don't need to be told it, you just need to see
it. It's a behavioural thing as much
as it is a a technical thing. Yeah, because you think you know
everything, but of course you know nothing.
(11:40):
And when you see these guys in action Masters, then, then you,
you, you really begin to sort ofhave that rapid learning curve.
Yeah, it's great. I think that's a really
important thing for certainly the the demographics that listen
to us as an audience, it's really great point for them to
(12:00):
hear. So perhaps we could we could
move on and talk a little bit about, you know, part of my job
is to break down what I call thebarriers of finance sometimes,
which is a lot of these complicated words, the jargon.
But when people are thinking about, OK, what potential
careers could I do? And like you said, you read lies
poke and you're like, right, I'mgoing to be a trader.
(12:20):
I read, I'm going to be a work in PE, some of those other books
you mentioned. And it's like, OK, when someone
says a chief strategist or a strategist role in general.
So how does that fit into the the composition of of an asset
manager or an investment bank and how investment ideas become
(12:42):
strategies that shape global portfolios?
How do you connect all of this Ain a kind of the landscape of a
of a firm, but then within a team of individuals as well?
Yeah, that. Thanks a lot.
I mean, the, I mean, the first thing is to say is it is, it
(13:02):
sounds pretty cool and it is pretty cool.
So my role is, is, is, is a senior role in the investment
team and, and ends up being reasonably high, high profile as
as well in terms of our sort of structure management structure.
I, I report to our, our global Chief investment officer and
(13:27):
that's probably fairly typical that you keep the economist,
chief economist, chief strategist quite close to the
leadership of the investment platform.
But of course I'm working with sales team colleagues,
investment team colleagues and other functions within our
organization. My, my role is exactly like you
(13:49):
laid out to be top down South, looking at things from the
30,000 foot perspective, thinking about the, you know,
the, the trends in the economy, what's going on with growth,
what's going on with inflation, what's happening to policy.
I mean, we used to just think that was monetary policy, but
increasingly fiscal industrial policy much, much more important
(14:12):
maybe. And then thinking about the big
markets, what's going on in the in the US, what's going on in
Asia and the global S we used tocall them emerging markets
prefer slightly different phrasethese days.
So there's this kind of global perspective which is not
(14:34):
universal but quite common in buy side asset management roles.
And then global on the other dimension to think about many
different asset classes. So my colleagues are running
investment funds in fixed incomeor inequities or multi asset or
alternative assets. And my responsibility then is to
(14:56):
be able to think about these asset classes from that 30,000
foot perspective, but to think about the whole range of them.
So short term rates, longer termbonds and credits don't markets
in, you know, the West and, and in and in the global South and
the East, currencies, alternatives increasingly such a
(15:17):
big area and those sort of balanced funds mixing up
different asset classes that we we call sort of multi asset
areas. And So what I try and do with
that is 3 things really. Firstly, I'm working very
closely with the investors, the fund managers, identifying and
(15:41):
building a sort of core scenario, risk scenarios, trying
to sort of plot out what it means.
What does growth and inflation and policy look like under a
central case? What does that imply for what
happens in the US or in China orin other economies?
And then mapping that, connecting the dots into
investment markets as well, doing the same for more
(16:05):
optimistic view of the world andmore pessimistic view of the
world thinking what have we missed?
What could first banner in the works, Neglected risks.
That's all a big part of it. So in that sense, we're
contributing my me and my team, contributing to the investment
decision making process, the investment outcomes.
(16:28):
The second thing I end up doing,which again, is kind of common
to my role is cheesy storytelling and, and great fun
things like joining you on, on the podcast today.
I mean, I spend a lot of time onthe road meeting clients,
meeting prospects, talking to investors, other other
(16:50):
stakeholders within the context of the sort of HSBC big group,
speaking at conferences, doing podcasts or TV or all that sort
of thing. And what I'm doing there is
representing the views of the investment team, sharing our
ideas, research, sharing our house view.
(17:13):
We have a house view approach and, and hopefully saying
interesting, sensible things. You're broadcasting a killer
charts on, on LinkedIn or whatever it might be.
And, and because of the amazing footprint of HSBCII, end up
(17:36):
traveling a lot around the worldto some amazing places to meet
some incredible investors with, you know, very great influence
and, and, and and sort of outstanding track records.
Last week I was in India, for example.
Yeah. And then the final piece, the
(17:57):
third piece is that, you know, Idon't do all this on my own.
It takes it takes a village. So I have, I have a great team
of economists, strategists, quants who helped me.
And I have the great honor pleasure of sort of coaching,
managing, looking after them, mentoring, other sort of
(18:20):
leadership responsibilities as well within my role.
So yeah, there's lots of different elements there.
So I'm a bit more research focused, a little bit more
analytical, some a bit more sortof extrovert storytelling.
And, and, and then the idea of of sort of looking after
(18:43):
mentoring coaching is, is a big part as well of, of what I end
up doing. I don't know why, but in my in
my head, I'm forming like this stage with a band and your quant
was on drums. You're, you know, you got your
Chartist on on the bass and thenyou're effectively a front man.
(19:03):
Well, why not? I mean what why?
We've often told the story aboutit in terms of cricketing,
fielding positions or a footballformation.
Look, when you're when you're building a team, don't want
identicate people with the same skills that that doesn't help
(19:23):
you achieve the goal. That doesn't help you act like a
high performance, high performance team.
You want different skills, different perspectives.
You want an argument and a healthy discussion.
And and so like you say, we recognize that there are special
specialty skills, specialist skills that we we need in our
(19:48):
in, in our group. I mean, that's true from my team
and my silo block of work, but it's true in investment
management, asset management generally and probably true in
many, many walks of life. Having that diversity of skill
set and ability, cognitive diversity critical to enable us
(20:12):
to make high quality decisions on a sustained basis.
Well, on, on the previous shows,you know, we'll have the, the
maths geniuses and the, the quants and that.
But that's not why I want to talk to you, because the role
that you fill is definitely, youknow, the one around
storytelling. And one of the things I thought
(20:33):
would be really cool to unpack was that in a world obsessed
with data, you know, which seemsto be through there, the
advances in technology, we continue to lean further toward
that direction. You know, storytelling.
I mean, my assumption is that actually it becomes even more
powerful. But but how is that?
(20:55):
How do you define storytelling as an edge?
How does that tie to macro research and what makes a good
communicator in your perspective?
Yeah, I mean that. And so that's a great question
and I quite like the Monica the storyteller.
So thank you very much for kind of imposing that on the on the
(21:16):
podcast theme. Now this This might sound a bit
daft, but have you seen the movie Inception?
Leonardo DiCaprio? Oh, of course.
I mean, that is, that's just such a brilliant movie.
But I I've often thought about telling the story in the context
of that movie because that's ultimately what you're trying to
(21:37):
do. You're trying to land an an
idea, a, a theme, a way of thinking about the world, a, a
particular anecdote or charts ora trade idea, market insight.
You're trying to land that in, in somebody's mind, someone's
subconscious. So you know that.
(22:00):
Yeah, that thinking about that idea of, of, of, of inception, I
think is, is helpful. And of course it elevates the
importance of the story comparedto number crunching,
spreadsheets, all the other elements.
That's not to say that they're not important.
You have to do the work first. You you have to do the work
(22:23):
first. So you, you know, we, we like to
think about research as being a,a sort of an iceberg.
You know, you're only ever see that, the tip of the iceberg,
but there's a huge amount of work that's going on underneath
the surface in terms of developing ideas and, and
insights. Do you have to do the work 1st?
(22:45):
And that's a lot. But my approach is that that's
maybe a little over halfway. And what makes good analysis
great is then how you tell the story, the art of, of telling
the story. How do you want to land that
message? It's the inception sort of
thing. So do you think, I mean, a lot
(23:07):
of, a lot of my work is spent doing interesting visuals or
writing or, or speaking at investor events or, or meeting
with, with investors. So you know, the way the
question I would always ask is what message do I want to leave
the audience with? What conclusion do I want to
(23:30):
leave the, the the reader with? What do you want them to
remember? And then this is the sort of the
art of of storytelling. It it's, it's definitely not
telling people everything that, you know, with a 100 page flight
pack bumps. People do that.
So I think you've got to want totell the story and curating,
(23:56):
knowing what to leave out is a really kind of critical first
part to that art of, of, of storytelling.
And particularly for analytical people, you've got to fight that
natural urge to show them everything you know.
So I sometimes say to my colleagues and, and others that
(24:19):
we want to simplify as much as possible without crossing that
line into being simplistic. And, and that's really the sort
of the first I, I idea. I think the second thing is
that, you know, stories are not about data and spreadsheets and
charts. Stories have emotional content.
(24:39):
They have a beginning, a middle and an end.
So you need a structure, but stories make you feel something.
So I, I think, you know, you need plots, you need characters,
you need humor. My colleagues tell me I have the
world's worst selection of dad jokes.
(25:00):
But what you've got to remember is the bar for humor at polite
business conferences is incredibly low.
So, so, but you, you need, you have to make the audience or the
round table or, or the reader, you have to make them feel
something. You have to try and make a
connection in order to make yourmessage memorable and then
(25:23):
through it to land for it to achieve that in in Inception
event. So I think there's a really big
place for humor anecdotes at thepacing of the story.
And we think really hard about about all of that emotional
content and part of it as as well.
And the third thing I say is youhave to know the audience.
(25:45):
You have to kind of tailor the message to make it, to make it
stick with the audience. We have a engagement with a,
with a whole range of, of different, different clients.
As I mentioned, a lot of my roleis talking with my colleagues in
investment team, the fund management team.
(26:07):
You know, you're meeting external clients or journalists.
You have to account for how people are maybe approaching the
problem or, or, or seeing, seeing the world and, and you
have to make people care. But that overarching idea is,
you know, what do you want to leave the interviewer or the
(26:29):
audience or the investors with what, what's the message that
you want to leave, leave them with?
And as soon as you start thinking about in that way, you
can, you can see what I mean, that, you know, the work is the
research is essential. You have to be relentlessly
curious and, and, and focused and all over the numbers and the
(26:49):
data. But that's not it.
There's there's another slice, which is then making sure that
that those insights, those themes are landing really well
with the different people you'reexchanging and interacting with.
(27:10):
How much of it then listen to you explain it is natural
personality meshing with the ability to think in such a way
as opposed to skills that you learn as you go through?
Because from what you're describing, it sounds like the
natural course is that when you start, you probably do need to
(27:33):
do the number crunching to get the fundamental blocks of how to
analyse the market in a certain way, for example.
And I guess is it at that point quite hard to actually step back
when you are doing the number crunching at that time?
Or can you have that ability, doyou think from from the
beginning to to be able to have the capacity to connect all of
(27:57):
the dots, the bigger picture as well as the data?
Or is that is that a learned skill that develops over time
and experience and accumulation of skills?
Yeah, I mean, it's probably different for for for different
people in in my experience. I mean, I was always fascinated
by the stories and the psychodrama Hayek versus Keynes,
(28:19):
who would win? So I guess I've come into
thinking about macro, thinking about markets with that emphasis
on personality stories and plot lines.
But but I think you're probably right it for most people, the
(28:42):
kind of the critical foundationsare, you know, those research
skills, those technical skills. And you build that up maybe in
the 1st 10 years or so of your career, you build that as the
sort of the, the, the foundation, the foundation.
And that, that then that's stabilizes you.
(29:03):
It gives you the, the confidence, it gives you the,
the rigor and the robustness. You've learned your research
skills. And then it's probably then
something that you then develop and move into later to leverage
those skills. And that's probably the right
way to think about it. And of course, it's not to say
(29:25):
that there's not other ways of cutting, cutting the cake and,
and thinking about the issue, but that that I know that's
probably the right way to to think about it.
Look, nobody is. I mean, people are born great
communicators, but you've got tohave something to say.
(29:46):
You know, you can't just waffle and, and, and tell and tell
jokes. But, and I think in many
instances you read a lot about introverts being the most
impressive speakers at conferences.
So that tells you as well that there is a learned element to
it. You can, you can practice and
(30:08):
you can and you can get better. And you know, if you follow some
of those steps around the sort of art of storytelling, then it
does enable you to communicate really effectively and clearly
and powerfully and in an entertaining way without
necessarily having been, I don'tknow, elite debater of the world
(30:32):
in your, in your, in your in your youth.
So I think that's probably the right way to think about it.
But I'm not saying that don't dodon't do an economics degree.
Don't do the CFA. Instead, just focus on telling
stories and reading science fiction.
I mean, I think reading science fiction is a very sensible thing
for everybody to be doing. But you need that.
You do need that foundation because even though it is an
(30:55):
exercise in macro investment market storytelling, you are
telling stories about macro and investment markets.
You need to understand that plumbing those connections, like
I like the process that I talkedabout at the start.
I went through that process myself early on in my career,
trying to understand all those elements, and that's the
(31:18):
foundation. Yeah.
And you mentioned there science,science fiction, and you've
mentioned throughout actually your appetite for consuming
books and reading. And so I just wondered, is there
any other practical tips now that you do this?
Like you say, you're almost a performer in a way.
You go on Bloomberg, TVC, MB, C,you go on big conferences.
(31:42):
Is there some practical tips on managing that stress of the
point of delivery, the performance aspect?
Is there any frameworks that youhave to get you in that mental
space or to get you to perform when that pressure's on in that
moment to articulate those investment ideas, for example?
Yeah, but performing performer is very generous.
I mean, a synonym is clown, I hope.
(32:03):
You're I've gone from rock band to now performer so.
Yeah, I think there is a bit formative aspects to to all of
all of this now. I mean, you're in a conference
making a keynote speech, something that I, I would
regularly do. There's 750 people in the room.
I mean, it is a performance. Sometimes the stage is massive.
(32:24):
There's, it's not like Bruce Springsteen, but you, you know,
there's a, there's an element ofit in a, in a very, very small,
very, very small way. So I think, I, I mean, I think
it is, it is practice. And you know, if you, if go
through that process of, of, of sort of wanting to tell the
story, wanting to get better learning techniques, then you
(32:48):
know, you are constantly finessing and improving that
craft, you're constantly honing your skills.
So I've always thought about it like that, you know, tomorrow is
going to be even better. Tomorrow is going to be even
better. That's that sort of relentless
curiosity, which I, I think you need in, in, in all different
roles in investing, financial services, financial, financial
(33:10):
markets. So I think practice and, and
sort of wanting to improve is, is, is, is a big part of it.
I think trial and error is a bit, a big part of it.
So I'm unlucky now because I've,I've done this role for a number
of years. So I roughly know what works and
what doesn't. But you know, early on you're
bound to make mistakes. So don't dwell on those.
(33:31):
I think there's a it's easy to maybe get a little bit upset or
even disillusioned by things that don't work.
But the whole point of experiments is that some work
and some some fail. So you never know if you don't
give it a go and give it a try. And, and it is, it is, it's that
(33:55):
process, I think Anthony, aroundjust being relentless, keeping,
keeping going. Yeah.
And and and following a following, a passion for
something. Yeah, that that performance
aspect. I know that whenever I've done
big, big talk stuff like that, it's almost like with some of
the, for example, like like a joke in the middle of in the
(34:17):
midst of some technical knowledge you're trying to
transfer. You've kind of tried it a few
times. It's almost like the Fringe
Festival. So before you sell out the O2,
you need to go and do some smallpub back work on your your your
your edge in order to see Walmart.
So it doesn't and then. Actually you tend to have these
go to's that you know tends to land.
(34:39):
But my question then was, given that HSBC has such an
international spread in terms ofthe difference then in culture
and how you learn to identify and deliver what is
fundamentally kind of the same message, but reshaped or
calibrated for a different audience.
(35:00):
Because you mentioned that audience aspect is key for it to
land in the right way. How do you tackle that, like
working across cultures when when clients are going to be
quite different in that way? Yes, our clients are different
in terms of their, their, their interest and focus depending on
where they are in in the world. Some are more interested in
(35:24):
domestic assets, some are more global in their mindset, some
are, you know, come and get it with different, different
questions and and ideas. So you have to tailor your
message to the audience you're speaking with.
Some of it is, is sort of obvious, right?
If I'm, if I'm traveling in, in,in Asia, if I'm going to meet
(35:50):
investors in India, I, I clearlyneed to be prepared for some
questions on how are global investors seeing India?
How are global investors seeing the Reserve Bank of India?
Why is the rupee weakening when all of the emerging market
currencies are strengthening? Those sort of questions are sort
of obviously going to come up. So there's a little bit of
(36:15):
tailoring the, the story and theversion of the investment
outlook that I might deliver. But but as much as anything,
what you want to do is make surethat that, that the message is
at the right level for, for, fordifferent investors as as as
(36:36):
well. That really helps land the
message. It's this inception idea again.
So what we always try and do is have content and materials that
that can scale the slides and visuals that are kind of clear
and powerful and punchy. My colleagues talk about killer
(36:57):
charts. This is what we're searching
for. We're searching for a killer
chart, the best way of visualizing a particular theme
or idea in a powerful way, maybeone that people haven't seen
before, for it to be provocative, but but not in a
simplistic, obvious, boring way.And if you get that right, then
(37:18):
what enables you to do is read the room.
And then you can, you know, you can, you can leverage that
content to either going into theweeds, talk about the very
detail of particular topic or focus on the kind of the key
punchy headlines. And, you know, the, the sort of
(37:42):
social media LinkedIn version is, is, is even more superficial
and sort of high level than that.
But but it still enables us to try to get some of our messages
across. But you're absolutely right.
Traveling around the world, you know, you are aware of different
approaches, different themes, different interests, different
cultures, different ways of doing business.
(38:05):
And, you know, sometimes we evenhave to do the, the investment
outlook in, in different languages.
My Spanish is, I'm learning Spanish, I'm improving, but I,
I, I did do part of our investment outlook in, in
Mexico, indeed that Mexico in Spanish, which was great fun to
try. And the, you know, that makes a
(38:25):
difference to how people see what you're doing and, and how
people feel about your take on, on the world.
So I, I, I think it's as much asanything, it's about being
conscious of that and then trying to enhance what, what
(38:46):
you're doing in order to bring it to people in a, in a more
digestible, clear, relevant, powerful way.
I just wanted to ask them because the kind of segue from
here is you're doing a a lot of travel and travel, I guess in a
sense of it's quite hard to justjet into India, do a conference
(39:10):
and come back. I'm assuming you have to stay
and there's a there's, there's not just a keynote speech.
You're probably there for purpose to meet clients and, you
know, do a bit of a local tour and so on.
So given that a lot of your roleis on the road and a lot of our
listeners are thinking about their future careers and this is
a component of it, but you're still travelling a lot, even as
(39:34):
you're now in a senior position,whereas I guess a lot of people
might do travel early in their career.
Just wondered how, how do you balance that, that kind of
commitment to be the best you can be at your job, but also you
have a personal life to also manage at the same time?
Yeah, I mean, it's a, it's a, it's a blessing and a curse.
I I suppose you, as you say you're you're juggling a.
(40:02):
Personal commitments, family commitments, but but the my my
role is it's important to be to be visible in many interactions.
You know, you need to be there. You can do a lot on Zoom.
Of of course, that's an incredibly sort of powerful
breakthrough tool in, in terms of us, in terms of enabling me
(40:25):
to be with investors more regularly in, in a, you know, in
a good, in a good format. But nothing beats being with
people meeting, meeting investors, meeting analysts,
meeting policy specialists. So yeah, it's always a case of
trade-offs. I mean, I should say it's not
(40:48):
just my circumstances, not just me.
I've got a good team who helped me.
I've got a number of colleagues in our senior investment team
group who would back me up, helpme out.
And so that's an important part,part of it.
But yeah, I mean, we are a global asset manager.
(41:09):
And with that comes an importantrequirement to travel to be
there with investors around, around the world.
There's not really a getting away from that.
OK, Have to do, You bet. You just have to do your best
and try and deal with the jet lag in the best possible way
that you can. Drink plenty of water.
(41:30):
Yeah, I don't know if you've hadthis one yet, but a friend of
mine had to go to New York, comeback, fly back on Friday, and
then fly to India on Sunday night.
So I had to go a few. Time zone back.
All the way across, yeah. Yeah, Mexico to Hong Kong is a
tricky 1. Yeah, from London to.
Mexico and the back, there's always to debate which way
(41:51):
around you go because you're basically at the antipathy.
Yeah. So I mean, that's occupational
hazard, Anthony. I think that's the way, the way
to think about it. But you know, it's a team sport.
And I'm lucky enough to have a number of colleagues in
different parts of the world whocan help and also a good team
who can, who can back me up and some of my global colleagues
(42:14):
who, who also can, can help me. And and that's, that's a real
gift. Yeah.
Final question then just before we wrap, which is I guess
easiest way to phrase it, what mindset or way of thinking has
served you most in your career and how can students start
developing that today? Yeah, that, that's a great
(42:38):
question. I, I mean, I think, I think
there's a tendency in, in a research role to think the game
is trying to outsmart everybody else and that it's all about IQ.
I'm not sure about that. I, I, I think it the, the, the
key skill to incubate and, and, and develop is curiosity and a
(43:05):
sort of like a relentless curiosity as as as well.
So I don't know, maybe we say itlike it's a marathon.
It's not a Sprint. Or, or maybe you want to think
about it like Warren Buffett talking about compounding.
Compound it, compound it. So it it's, it's a case of of,
of just keeping at it. I think, I think that's the
(43:27):
that's the key thing it, you know, you would be amazed how
continuous effort ultimately pays off in in some of these
some of these roles. But but it is a case that, yeah,
just keeping at something. I think that's the critical
(43:47):
thing. I mean, there's no getting
around the fact that there are some technical skills and
technical foundations that you need to need to build in.
So it obviously helps if you're kind of interested and curious
in these in these areas. But but I think a process of
keeping out something is, is just the critical thing.
And it seems to me to be what sets apart the people who are
(44:09):
really doing well from the from,from others in terms of in terms
of what I've, what I've seen. So it goes back to that rather
hackneyed piece of advice that my dad gave me when I was
younger, what came out of the prom cracker.
You know, if you can find an area of investment markets,
(44:29):
financial markets, which can be your sort of passion project,
then you know that you're on to something really special.
Then. I mean, I think the advice works
just generally in life, but but you know, particularly thinking
in a markets context for maybe the listeners thinking about
(44:50):
about that. If if you can find that area
that then you're on to win because instantly then you never
work a day, right? It's all fun.
Not quite. You know, you're willing to put
the extra yards in, you're willing to go through that
process of then setting yourselfup and putting yourself in a
position where you can compound up and you have that natural
(45:13):
kind of relentless interests, which can sort of set you apart
from many, many others in some sense, in some cases, people who
are a lot, lot smarter than you.That was certainly my
experience. So I think that's the that's the
key thing. Now, whether or not you can kind
of coach yourself into that mindset would require an awful
(45:35):
lot of self-discipline. I think the more honest way of
doing it is just finding a passion and a purpose.
I know that there's no wrong answers there, you know?
You know, that's very personal thing.
Yeah, no, as you explained it, Ithink it makes total sense in
that one. The passion then ignites the
next step, which drives your curiosity, which brings the
(45:58):
energy and the commitment to want to do more and the desire
to improve and the thirst and hunger for, for more knowledge
and and so on. So, yeah.
Brilliant. Exactly.
Yeah, thanks a lot. And we, we had a prawn cracker
for for starters and desserts. So we're all care.
Joe, absolute pleasure. Thank you so much for for giving
(46:20):
up your time. As we've just heard, I know
you're incredibly busy, so to tograb you for 45 minutes has been
fantastic. Thank you very much.
Great pleasure. Thanks a lot for having me on
the show.
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