November 3, 2025 • 36 mins
What does bravery look like in the world of finance? Terri Duhon, Wall Street trader turned board director, TEDx speaker, and award-winning educator, shares her remarkable journey from rural Louisiana to MIT, J.P. Morgan, and the boardrooms of Morgan Stanley International and rising fintech firm Wise.
In this inspiring episode of the Market Maker Podcast mini-series spotlighting women in finance, Terri talks about the power of dreaming big, why financial literacy is essential for independence, and how being brave, not perfect, can change everything. She also explores the myths around women and numbers, the reality of imposter syndrome, and the critical role community plays in building confidence.
If you’ve ever doubted your path or felt like you didn’t belong, Terri’s story will remind you that you’re not alone and that you absolutely belong.
(00:00) Introduction & Guest Background
(00:52) Growing Up in Louisiana
(04:10) Imposter Syndrome & MIT
(08:28) Lessons from the Trading Floor
(13:07) Leaving Wall Street
(16:39) Bravery Over Perfection
(19:54) Women and Self-Selection
(25:58) Financial Independence
(30:00) Building Confidence
(33:25) Changing Role Models
(36:31) Final Message
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Hello and welcome back to the Market Maker podcast, where
today I'm joined by Terry Duhon,a Wall Street trader turned
board director, Ted X speaker, author and award-winning
educator. From growing up in rural
Louisiana in the US to studying maths at MIT, leading a global
trading team and now shaping strategy in the boardroom of
(00:22):
companies like Morgan Stanley International and the fintech
startup Wise, and is also a associate fellow at Oxford
University. This journey that you're about
to hear from Terry is extraordinary.
And in this episode, we're goingto dive into some pretty cool
things like resilience, financial independence, and what
real empowerment looks like, especially for women in finance.
(00:45):
So Terry, thrilled to have you with us and and how are you?
I am thrilled to be here. One of the things here when I,
when I first met you and we weretalking before and through a
fellow kind of colleague that John who introduced us growing
up in rural Louisiana, I was like, what were they putting in
the water in this place in Louisiana for you and John to
(01:08):
come from that place? And then you ended up studying
at MIT. So I just wanted to get a sense
of how do you go from a rural setting and what was that
childhood and upbringing look look like and the visibility and
access to these opportunities tothen going to one of the most
prestigious universities in the world.
(01:29):
Yeah, thank you for asking. It's, I think it's, I'm
incredibly lucky to start with. My parents hugely valued
education and I was also in a state, Louisiana.
Many people would consider it probably one of the states with
the worst education systems. And yet it had a school, a
(01:51):
boarding school actually at situated at a university in a
university town, which was like a magnet school.
I think there are different terms for magnet schools, but
they would go around the state and see if there were any
students who were particular key, particularly keen on an
academic education and would invite them to apply for their
(02:15):
junior and senior year of high school.
It's a bit like sixth form, I guess, here in the UK.
And, and they came to my school and visited and my Mama found
the pamphlet in my backpack and she said to me, Terri Lynn, this
looks amazing in her very, she was from Texas.
(02:36):
She had a heavy accent and I think you've got to do this.
And yes, ma'am, I'll take a look.
So I applied and I was lucky enough to be accepted and it
transformed my life really, thatthose two years.
And it's funny because of courseI did.
(02:57):
You mentioned John. I knew John and we were, he was
one year older than me, so we overlapped by a year.
I didn't know him well, obviously.
I was in the girls dorm, he was in the boys dorm.
And I'm not going to say I was Uber confident with the opposite
sex back in those days. And it was later when I,
(03:18):
somebody from Louisiana contacted me from the school and
said, by the way, did you know that John Norman is living in
London and working at JP Morgan?And I, I was just amazed and I
reached out and because of our shared background, which is
very, very similar, we've becomegood friends.
And I think we would both consider ourselves very lucky
(03:40):
that we were able to have that opportunity.
It was, it was life changing forus.
And certainly without that, I don't think MIT would have been
an option for me actually. So I was very lucky.
Did that then the boarding school, I'm assuming because it
was a magnet school as you referred to it.
So were you already put into themindset where the transition
(04:04):
into MIT felt fairly natural because most of the people were
going to target schools or was it, was it like?
Imposter syndrome. What am I doing here?
No, look, OK, so I have huge imposter syndrome.
And even when I was at that highschool, I actually felt very
(04:25):
different from everybody else. I felt I was coming from a very,
very poor family. We lived in a trailer.
And, you know, there were lots of other people who may have
felt that way. But it, it, it's hard to see
from the outside that, that, that sense of difference.
So I didn't necessarily know that.
(04:47):
My perspective is that there seem to be all these people who
seem to have, you know, money toown a car to go to school and or
seem to have all these fabulous clothes or, you know, new
textbooks or new backpacks or are just things that just seemed
out of reach for me. And I felt, I definitely felt
(05:09):
very different. And, and look, MIT, Yale, where
John went, MIT, Yale, all of theIvy League's, these are reach
schools for everyone. There's no single person on the
planet that simply says, oh, I think I'm going to go to Harvard
today and, and Waltz is in the door.
It's not how it works. And so, so for me, MIT was a
(05:32):
reach and, and in fact, I'll be very honest, I 100% knew as a
result of going to that school that I wasn't the biggest genius
in the room. There was some very, very clever
people that I was at school within Louisiana.
And I was in awe of these people.
(05:53):
But I thought to myself, I thought, you know what, I, I'm
good enough to go. So I just have to figure out how
to get them to notice me. And that's one of the, probably
one of the biggest lessons is toremove perceived obstacles,
right? MIT is not necessarily looking
(06:14):
for the biggest geniuses in the world.
They're looking for clever people who work hard, can do the
work, but also can contribute not not just to the MIT
community, but to the world at large.
What are they going to be able to contribute?
And I thought, well, I'm going to make myself stand out.
(06:35):
I'm going to show them that I'm a dancer and I'm going to
explain my personality through dance.
And so I choreographed this dance where I explained that I
was a Gemini. And so I had two different
personalities and I had music. It was a Gershwin song that
changes tempo a bit and to show my two different personalities.
(06:58):
And, you know, this is back in the day when, you know, not
everybody was videoing themselves in their bedroom and
posting it 20 times a day dancing around.
This was back in the day where you had to go and find someone
and borrow a camera, which was as big as a small dog and video
(07:19):
yourself and then watch it. There was no editing software.
There was not that, you know, wewatched it on a television and
then, you know, decided if it was good enough and and I
actually redid the whole thing, re recorded the whole thing.
There wasn't, you know, there was no editing.
That was actually just redoing the whole thing, which was a bit
of fun and mailing it in the real mail along with my paper
(07:42):
application that went into MIT. And I'm, I'm pretty sure it's
what got me in because when I arrived on day one, the, the
admissions people came over and said, we remember your video.
That was fabulous. We really enjoyed that.
And I thought, you see, I just needed to stand out and now I
just have to get through and nowI just have to make it through
(08:03):
because it's not, it's not a sale in the park.
It was a lot of work, but but I I did it so I was I over the
moon we. We might have a run at the most
unconventional route into MIT here in this episode.
So yeah, that's that's an awesome story.
So let look, just moving on then.
(08:24):
So from from your early part of your career, spending a decade
on the trading floor and eventually running a a global
team, just now that you look back retrospectively, what do
you think you learnt about yourself during that particular
period of time? You know, I learned gosh, so
(08:47):
much I I learned. I particularly learned some of
the skills that I was really good at and they were not the
things that schools make you think about.
Schools make you think about, are you good at math or are you
good at English? You know, are you a STEM?
Are you a liberal arts? And, you know, do you like
(09:10):
reading and, and analyzing text or do you want to do a bunch of
really complex math? The truth is that finance is not
about math really. If you can, if you're
comfortable with numbers and youcan multiply up to 12, that's
probably as much as you need to do.
That's probably as much as I ever did really on the trading
floor. Now, to be fair, there was
(09:32):
somebody else doing the really complex stuff in a backroom
without windows somewhere. They did the really hard stuff
and I got to use those models. But I did have to understand the
output and it had to make sense to me.
But but broadly, you know, it's,it's another myth busted.
You don't have to be the biggestmath genius to go into finance.
(09:53):
You just need to know how to multiply and, and be comfortable
with numbers. But the thing that I did learn
about myself is that I was really good at making things
happen. And what does that mean?
I could, I could GSD, as I jokingly call it.
I could get shit done. So if I needed to make a project
(10:16):
happen, you know, I needed to get a presentation out to a
client. So I needed a junior person to
write the presentation. I needed some numbers to be
created by the team over there. I needed to approve some wording
from this team over there. I needed the the legal guys to
check it out. I needed the compliance guys or
(10:37):
the branding guys. Or I could make that happen.
I could move it along. I could get people on board, I
could bring people together. I could manage to make things
happen and I could get it to happen fast and quick and, and I
could help people through complex problems and, and when
(10:58):
people threw obstacles at me, I could figure out how to get
through them and navigate them. And those are not skills that
you're necessarily taught anywhere, right?
You have to figure them out. You have to, it's a bit like
study skills, but it's also about, you know, hurting cats
skills and you know, everybody wants to go in a different
(11:19):
direction. So you've got to pull everybody
together and and push them along.
It's some leadership skills and some management skills and it's
not often taught almost anywhere.
It's something you have to figure out if you can do.
And I figured it out really quickly.
Well, really quickly I did figure it out and I learned that
(11:43):
I wasn't loving being a trader. I wasn't totally loving
marketing, although I was never really in a marketing team.
I did love structuring, but really I I wanted to be the
person that kind of drove the deals, making the deals happen.
That was really fun. And what I figured out as well
was that the way I described my skill set, it was kind of hard
(12:07):
to put me into a specific team. And because I wanted to own
different bits of the process and pull it all together.
And that's not how the the trading floor had been
organized. And so I was, there was a little
bit of friction with how what I was trying to do versus what the
natural organization of the institution was trying to do.
(12:29):
But but I learned a lot about how to navigate all of that.
And it was far more valuable over time than the, you know,
the partial differential equations class, if I'm honest.
Next question, you've kind of, Iguess I'm getting an answer for
that already to some extent because I was going to ask how
(12:49):
did it feel stepping away from afront office trading seat into
start something new eventually going into these boardroom
roles? What drew you to that?
But I'm am I right in thinking it was that strategic element
and this ability to influence and see all parts?
You know, I'll tell you the truth is that when I first
(13:12):
joined JP Morgan, it was clear almost on day one that I was not
going to work my way up that corporate ladder.
And I just it, I knew almost immediately.
And, and in fact, I, I knew, I knew instantly because of the
(13:32):
watch I watch story. There was a, a wonderful guy who
gave, came and gave all the analysts this big presentation
and he showed us his watch and he was so proud of his watch.
He held it up and, and he said he had received it for 25 years
of service at JP Morgan. And I almost hyperventilated
(13:53):
because I thought, Oh my goodness, this guy has has been
working longer than I've been alive in one place.
And he has a watch to show for it.
And I don't want to demean at all his achievement.
He, he had done some amazing things, but it did not resonate
with me at all that pathway. And I knew I was not going to
(14:16):
stay. I just didn't know what was next
for me. And I leaving was hard because
one of the things that those large, big organizations do is
they tell you that you're, you are so lucky to be there.
You are so lucky to be in that seat and that seat has value.
(14:38):
You're just lucky to be sitting in it.
And when you leave, you feel like you are, you're walking
away from this unbelievable opportunity.
How could you possibly give thatup?
It's crazy. And yet yet it no longer
resonated with me. And I knew I needed to leave.
(14:59):
It was time. And let's be honest, I, I didn't
like the politics of navigating my way up the, as some people
say, the greasy pole it was. I wasn't mature enough to do it.
I think I could probably do it today, but even today I might
lose my patience. And you know, working within a
(15:23):
large organization is, is tricky.
It, it takes a certain personality.
And so I left and I started my own thing.
And it was, it was amazing. But honestly, I had identified
as a trader or a structure for so long that when I stepped out
of that role, I had almost an identity crisis.
(15:46):
I knew I was going to become an entrepreneur.
I knew I was setting up a new business, but I, I felt like I,
I had to reinvent myself. And, and thus became my journey
of, of reinvention on a pretty regular basis, actually just
learning that I, I could reinvent myself.
I had the power to reinvent myself and it was a wonderful
(16:12):
way to kind of open up all of myoptions for the future.
So great. And actually the the process of
doing that, I think hopefully wecan dive into some of that with
the subsequent follow up questions now to kind of break
that down because while that's afantastic journey of self
exploration and development, I'msure there's lots of questions
(16:33):
of like, yeah, but how do you have the confidence to do that?
Like, yeah, in that respect. So, and it's not, you know what
we've talked a bit about imposter syndrome.
It's less confidence and more, one might say bravery.
Somebody else might say blind stupidity, stepping into the
(16:57):
unknown. But but I call it bravery.
It was definitely, I think it was terrifying, terrifying,
really scary. And yet I knew I had to do it
and it was the right thing for me.
And so I just, I did it. I was brave.
And that is, it's interesting. There's a book called Be Brave
(17:18):
Not Perfect and it's targeted atwomen where the idea is that
culturally and socially we encourage without necessarily
saying it out loud, we encouragewomen to be perfect.
And so women don't trying new things, don't don't put
themselves out there, not not because they're necessarily
afraid or they are lacking confidence, but they think they
(17:40):
need to be perfect in order to do things.
And that is that perceived obstacle is one of the things
that stops people. And I, I love that phrase, be
brave, not perfect. And, and I can certainly relate.
I can tell you I was brave rather than perfect, that's for
sure. And being brave is the first
(18:01):
step, obviously. But you know, let's take it back
a step. It's more than that.
It's about it's about dreaming big.
You know, just you're not a function of who you are today.
You are entirely a function of your future potential.
So, you know, dig deep. What is that future?
(18:21):
It's huge. It's huge in all of us.
And if you remove those perceived obstacles, if you, if
you let yourself dream and say, what if I weren't afraid?
What if I just take a took a leap?
What if I just tried? What if I told people I wanted
to run the firm? What would they say?
Well, what's the worst thing that could happen?
(18:43):
And you know, what are you scared of?
Maybe they'll laugh. I have been laughed at.
People have laughed to my face about some of my dreams.
And it hurts. Yeah, it hurts.
But. But you got to start.
You got to start somewhere. So, so dream big.
That's the first step, right? You've got to dream big.
I'm feeling pumped now, but the that because I know that you
(19:07):
know, when we've spoken before, you've done, you know, you're a
motivational speaker, you've been involved with schools so
impacting people are very formative years of their
development. You're on the women on boards as
an as an ambassador on that network as well.
So I guess this next part then is a series of questions around
going into deeper into some of these topics, which is women,
(19:28):
self selection, financial independence, all I know things
you care deeply about, but have some really good structural ways
on how to meet these challenges.So going into the first one of
those. So you've spoken about how women
often self select out of opportunities.
You've kind of inferred that from some of what you've
described so far. Why do you think that happens?
(19:51):
And more importantly, what can we do to change that?
Well, a lot of it is, it is perception, self perception
again, these perceived obstaclesor what society teaches us.
And I'll give you a few concreteexamples.
So I was the I ran a course at the Syed Business School at
(20:16):
Oxford University, where I'm an associate fellow and the course
was called Financial Market Trading.
And it was pretty, it was a tough course.
It was considered really tough actually.
And I didn't realize how much I was asking of them until I did
the first year. And then the feedback came that
I was the toughest teacher they had ever had, but the most fun,
(20:37):
I'm going to say the most fun, but the hardest.
And I thought to myself, well, this is fantastic.
I'm teaching what's considered arelatively technical course.
I think I'm, I might be one of the only female lecturers in,
in, in a more in a technical space.
(20:57):
I'm going to get all these womencoming into my class.
And at the time, Saeed was about30% female.
And out of the 100 students, I kept the class at 100 students
because it's hard to IE grading and you got to interact with all
of these. I kept the class at 100
students. Out of 100 students, I got about
10 women that first year. And I, and I thought, well, hang
(21:21):
on, this is even disproportionate from the number
of women in the program itself. This is what, what could
possibly be going on? And, and you know, the research
tells us that women self select out of things where they are,
where, where society has told them they're not going to be
(21:43):
very good. And if you overlay that with the
idea that society's told them they have to be perfect.
So not only are they not going to be not potentially not going
to succeed in this, but but they're supposed to be perfect.
So how can they possibly take that risk?
And, and the, the issue, the area that they're that, that
(22:07):
society implies that women are not very good at is numbers.
And, and you can see it in schools when you look at, and
there's some research on this, when you look at Coed schools
and, and I think the research isaround the US, you look at Coed
schools, you'll see that more boys go into STEM subjects and
more girls go into liberal arts.Now, of course, we're all
(22:30):
talking about stems. So, so this might be changing.
I haven't seen recent statistics, but if you then if
you looked at all boys schools and all girls schools, you see
equal numbers of boys and girls going into STEM and going into
liberal arts. And, and the truth is this, this
push from society for boys to doSTEM and girls to do liberal
(22:50):
arts. You know, boys do the, the hard
subjects and girls do the soft, soft stuff, you know,
terminology I really hate. But this push for society that
for, for us to do this, to segregate ourselves this way, I
mean, First off, it it, it's not, it's not fair to anybody,
(23:11):
right? If we say, well, boys have to do
STEM, well, what about the boys that really want to do the
liberal arts? And if we say girls have to do
liberal arts, what about the girls that really want to do
STEM? And, and then you overlay that
with the idea that actually whatwe're really saying society is
really saying is that girls aren't any good with numbers.
And, and that is it, you know, that is really frustrating and,
(23:35):
and you know, you can see it, you see it in so many places.
And, you know, I'll give you another example where it
manifests itself. A lot of women coming who took
my class, who were brave enough to take my class at Oxford would
then call me up after and they would say, look, I'm, I'm
applying to, you know, private equity, or I'm applying to hedge
(23:57):
funds or I'm applying to banks. And the feedback I'm getting
from my interviews is that I would be amazing in a sales
role. And actually what I really want
is an investing role or a trading role, or, you know, a
more analytical role, But I'm being railroaded into a, a role
because of my gender. And, and ultimately it's, it is
(24:21):
no one's fault. So there's, there's no point in,
in, in blame or getting angry. The, the important thing, I
think is to be aware, to be aware that no one is necessarily
saying you can't do it, but there, there is a, an
unconscious bias that people areacting on.
So, so you just have to hit it on the head and you have to say,
(24:43):
well, hang on a minute, I'm going to be brave.
I'm going to take this class. I'm going to be brave.
I'm going to go for the job I really want and not the job I'm
being told that I should do because of my gender.
I'm going to be brave. And when someone says I should
do something else, I'm going to tell them I, I love your
feedback. Thank you so much for that.
But I'm actually really, really good at the numbers and I'd
(25:05):
really like to do this job. And then when you get into that
role, you prove yourself and andyou know, I'm sorry to say
you're going to have to do that a few times probably along your
journey, but it's OK. Don't get angry.
Just it is what it is. Our goal all of us today is to,
(25:27):
you know, get into these organizations to put ourselves
forward for the jobs we want, not the jobs we should have for
our gender, and work our way up and change it from the inside
and, you know, and change people's perception of what we
can do. And, and I think, I think it's,
look, there are lots of ways to impact and change the world.
(25:50):
And I think one of them is, is encouraging women to do exactly
what they believe they can do, what they know they can do.
When women do opt out early, it's not just about that
opportunity or that job or that promotion.
This can create a lifelong impact on financial literacy,
financial independence as well. So how does that cycle come into
(26:14):
it in in later life that young women probably are maybe not
quite thinking about at that moment in time, but is a very
important. Well, I think look, there, there
are so many different paths thatpeople can take and there are
lots of other pressures on people outside of career
choices. And, you know, socially there's,
(26:38):
you know, partnership, marriage,maybe children or maybe you
become primary caregiver. Maybe you become primary
caregiver, not just of children or maybe not of children, but
maybe of, of aging parents or, or relatives.
There are so many competing holes on your time.
(26:58):
And, and of course, depending onwhat, where you live, they're
either you're going to feel themin different ways.
And we all make compromises. All of us, not, not just women,
obviously all of us make compromises along the way.
But one of the things that I, I do talk about is, is financial
independence. I think it is a really critical
(27:20):
part of every every individual'sjourney.
And again, it's not very gender specific this, although it can
be gender specific. So financial independence is
critical. And what that means is if you
feel the pressure from society that tells you that you're not
(27:41):
very good at numbers or maybe finances are a little a little
complicated. Again, I want to repeat, you
just need to be able to multiply.
I know we can all multiply. So there is no barrier for women
to understand their own financesand to understand how to be
financially independent. But you know, the, the important
(28:06):
thing is that you you think to yourself, what does my future
look like and how do I get therein a safe and secure way?
And one of those sayings we havein the US is that most women are
one death or one divorce away from the breadline, which
implies now it's an old saying. And again, I'm hoping that that
(28:29):
saying is going away and it's changing.
But but the implication has beenin the past that that women are
not financially independent. And it's a critical journey that
we all have to go on. And it's one we should not be
afraid of because honestly, you just need to multiply the, the
issue. The reason it gets complicated
(28:49):
or seems complicated is that it's full of vocabulary.
Now, if you think about that, it's kind of funny because
actually what women are told in school is that they're really
good at liberal arts. They're really good at reading
and learning vocabulary. And, and, and actually financial
independence is just, is more about vocabulary than it is
(29:10):
about numbers. So where you know, again, that
perceived barrier, take it away and just ensure that you're
you've got the independence thatwe all deserve and need.
And another part of that, that journey then to believe that
they can take ownership almost to to find their own destiny, I
(29:31):
guess comes down to to confidence.
And for me, it was being someonewho works in a community all of
the time. I get to interact with these
amazing young women. I can only sympathize to a
certain degree because I am fundamentally different in a way
and and how I've been treated bysociety has been different in
that way of being a guy. So you having worked with the
Prince's Trust speakers for schools, what are actually what
(29:55):
makes a difference when it comesto building confidence in young
women? You know what really makes a
difference? So I've talked about already.
I've talked about being brave, not perfect.
I've talked about just taking risk, right?
It's OK to try and do something that's a little scary.
(30:15):
It is. It is critical that you reach
inside and you know yourself andfigure out what is possible,
what is the future You look like, you know, dream really
big. Those are important steps.
However, probably the most important bit on this journey is
that everybody's journey is unique.
(30:36):
So your journey is your own, butyou're not alone.
You can do this with the supportof the community around you,
right? Make sure that you have people
around you who are prepared to support you.
You have a phone, a friend, you have a family member or somebody
who's sitting there and is your personal cheerleader.
(31:00):
And as much as you cheer them on, they cheer you on.
And if you don't feel you have that, you need to go and
cultivate that. We all need a support system
around ourselves. We're not.
We're human. We need that connection.
And so while your path is your own, and your hopes and your
(31:21):
dreams are your own, your futurepotential is your own.
You are not alone. Right.
So it's almost so simple, but sopowerful.
I guess it's that whole leap of faith to have the trust to be
confident to make those decisions.
(31:43):
But but also, you know, just just just say to yourself, you
know what, this is going to fail.
I'm going to do it, but it's going to fail.
That's what I say. I'm going to do it, but it's
going to fail. I hope it goes well, but I
expect them to say no or laugh in my face.
What's the worst that could happen?
And I just I, I, I kind of role play with myself.
(32:04):
What's the worst that can happen?
They're going to laugh at me. OK, I can deal with laugh.
They're going to laugh. So what, They're idiots, you
know, I'm so, you know, I'm going to Wolfson and I'm going
to say this is what I'd like to do.
And they laugh and off I go. I, you know, I go and cry in the
bathroom and call my best friendwho says, Terry, you're amazing,
you can do this. Don't worry.
(32:25):
You know, they don't know what they're talking about.
Just don't give up. And and that's the path we all
have to be prepared to take it. Look, life isn't easy at any
stage. So nothing, you know, we
shouldn't expect that all of these steps forward are going to
(32:49):
be a walk in the park. So along the way, we've all
taken risk in so many different ways.
Why not take it as well with what you'd like to achieve and
what your, you know, hopes and dreams are?
I totally agree, I'm the father of two young daughters and I can
see first hand from being a parent how different the the
(33:09):
girls are treated to the boys even at a very young primary
school age. So when society is putting the
burden of perfection on them, what are small little practical
things that you can do to get comfortable to being brave?
Well, I think, I think role models are changing a bit for
(33:31):
girls and I think that's really important.
My daughter did something amazing when she was about 87
and she was, she had decided to join the parkour club at her
school. And, you know, parkour, where
you crawl on the wall and you jump around and slide on the
(33:54):
railings and all of this. And she was the only girl.
And the school told the club members to line up on the
sidewalk. So there was a line of boys.
And then Aspen was in this line somewhere and all the boys were
acting out. And my daughter was, I think she
(34:17):
was just standing there for somereason.
And one of the teachers came by and said, come on, boy.
Something like, come on, boys, look at Aspen.
I mean, can't you behave like that?
You know, like Aspen? I mean, this is, you know,
behave yourselves. Be a bit more like Aspen.
And Aspen turned to him, and shesaid, whoa, don't, you know,
(34:37):
don't expect that just because I'm a girl that I'm going to
behave a certain way. She was so offended because she
felt that it was some gender slur that had just occurred, and
she was furious. And she came home so angry and I
thought, wow, good for you. She said, just because I'm a
(34:58):
girl, don't expect me to be. She said something like, don't
expect me to be perfect. And I thought, wow, where did
she get that from? You know, because they're
they're who knows, everybody's alittle different.
Thank thankfully. That makes that's what makes the
world interesting. But I think that the the role
models are changing. And I think that's, I think
(35:20):
that's fantastic. And I think, you know, you just
encourage the, you know, the, the, the strong and capable role
models, the ones that make you comfortable as a parent.
I, there are so many to choose from.
Look, I, I don't want to judge and I, I think it's in, it's, I
(35:40):
have to tell you that I have never had a job as hard as being
a parent. I'm so I, I, gosh, I was so
judgy before I was a parent. Oh, I'm never going to let my
kid do that. I'm never going to let my kid do
that. Oh, my goodness.
What terrible parenting. I had no idea, really no idea
(36:01):
how hard it was. Right.
And I'm just conscious of, of your time.
So I think there's so much that you you've shared that's been
amazing. I just wondered whether if you
were going to distill it down to1 simple message to young women
listening to this, you might be,you know, bright, curious but
unsure about finance as an area.You've kind of talked about the
(36:25):
numbers aspect and the multiplication aspect.
Is there anything else you'd like them to hear as a final
message? Look, I I'm final message.
You are not alone. Dream big, take risk, be brave,
do not give up. Use use your community.
(36:48):
You are not alone. Do not give up.
You can do this. Amazing.
Thank you, Terry, so much for your for your time, your
insights. It's been brilliant.
You're welcome.
Hello and welcome back to the Market Maker podcast, where
today I'm joined by Terry Duhon,a Wall Street trader turned
board director, Ted X speaker, author and award-winning
educator. From growing up in rural
Louisiana in the US to studying maths at MIT, leading a global
trading team and now shaping strategy in the boardroom of
(00:22):
companies like Morgan Stanley International and the fintech
startup Wise, and is also a associate fellow at Oxford
University. This journey that you're about
to hear from Terry is extraordinary.
And in this episode, we're goingto dive into some pretty cool
things like resilience, financial independence, and what
real empowerment looks like, especially for women in finance.
(00:45):
So Terry, thrilled to have you with us and and how are you?
I am thrilled to be here. One of the things here when I,
when I first met you and we weretalking before and through a
fellow kind of colleague that John who introduced us growing
up in rural Louisiana, I was like, what were they putting in
the water in this place in Louisiana for you and John to
(01:08):
come from that place? And then you ended up studying
at MIT. So I just wanted to get a sense
of how do you go from a rural setting and what was that
childhood and upbringing look look like and the visibility and
access to these opportunities tothen going to one of the most
prestigious universities in the world.
(01:29):
Yeah, thank you for asking. It's, I think it's, I'm
incredibly lucky to start with. My parents hugely valued
education and I was also in a state, Louisiana.
Many people would consider it probably one of the states with
the worst education systems. And yet it had a school, a
(01:51):
boarding school actually at situated at a university in a
university town, which was like a magnet school.
I think there are different terms for magnet schools, but
they would go around the state and see if there were any
students who were particular key, particularly keen on an
academic education and would invite them to apply for their
(02:15):
junior and senior year of high school.
It's a bit like sixth form, I guess, here in the UK.
And, and they came to my school and visited and my Mama found
the pamphlet in my backpack and she said to me, Terri Lynn, this
looks amazing in her very, she was from Texas.
(02:36):
She had a heavy accent and I think you've got to do this.
And yes, ma'am, I'll take a look.
So I applied and I was lucky enough to be accepted and it
transformed my life really, thatthose two years.
And it's funny because of courseI did.
(02:57):
You mentioned John. I knew John and we were, he was
one year older than me, so we overlapped by a year.
I didn't know him well, obviously.
I was in the girls dorm, he was in the boys dorm.
And I'm not going to say I was Uber confident with the opposite
sex back in those days. And it was later when I,
(03:18):
somebody from Louisiana contacted me from the school and
said, by the way, did you know that John Norman is living in
London and working at JP Morgan?And I, I was just amazed and I
reached out and because of our shared background, which is
very, very similar, we've becomegood friends.
And I think we would both consider ourselves very lucky
(03:40):
that we were able to have that opportunity.
It was, it was life changing forus.
And certainly without that, I don't think MIT would have been
an option for me actually. So I was very lucky.
Did that then the boarding school, I'm assuming because it
was a magnet school as you referred to it.
So were you already put into themindset where the transition
(04:04):
into MIT felt fairly natural because most of the people were
going to target schools or was it, was it like?
Imposter syndrome. What am I doing here?
No, look, OK, so I have huge imposter syndrome.
And even when I was at that highschool, I actually felt very
(04:25):
different from everybody else. I felt I was coming from a very,
very poor family. We lived in a trailer.
And, you know, there were lots of other people who may have
felt that way. But it, it, it's hard to see
from the outside that, that, that sense of difference.
So I didn't necessarily know that.
(04:47):
My perspective is that there seem to be all these people who
seem to have, you know, money toown a car to go to school and or
seem to have all these fabulous clothes or, you know, new
textbooks or new backpacks or are just things that just seemed
out of reach for me. And I felt, I definitely felt
(05:09):
very different. And, and look, MIT, Yale, where
John went, MIT, Yale, all of theIvy League's, these are reach
schools for everyone. There's no single person on the
planet that simply says, oh, I think I'm going to go to Harvard
today and, and Waltz is in the door.
It's not how it works. And so, so for me, MIT was a
(05:32):
reach and, and in fact, I'll be very honest, I 100% knew as a
result of going to that school that I wasn't the biggest genius
in the room. There was some very, very clever
people that I was at school within Louisiana.
And I was in awe of these people.
(05:53):
But I thought to myself, I thought, you know what, I, I'm
good enough to go. So I just have to figure out how
to get them to notice me. And that's one of the, probably
one of the biggest lessons is toremove perceived obstacles,
right? MIT is not necessarily looking
(06:14):
for the biggest geniuses in the world.
They're looking for clever people who work hard, can do the
work, but also can contribute not not just to the MIT
community, but to the world at large.
What are they going to be able to contribute?
And I thought, well, I'm going to make myself stand out.
(06:35):
I'm going to show them that I'm a dancer and I'm going to
explain my personality through dance.
And so I choreographed this dance where I explained that I
was a Gemini. And so I had two different
personalities and I had music. It was a Gershwin song that
changes tempo a bit and to show my two different personalities.
(06:58):
And, you know, this is back in the day when, you know, not
everybody was videoing themselves in their bedroom and
posting it 20 times a day dancing around.
This was back in the day where you had to go and find someone
and borrow a camera, which was as big as a small dog and video
(07:19):
yourself and then watch it. There was no editing software.
There was not that, you know, wewatched it on a television and
then, you know, decided if it was good enough and and I
actually redid the whole thing, re recorded the whole thing.
There wasn't, you know, there was no editing.
That was actually just redoing the whole thing, which was a bit
of fun and mailing it in the real mail along with my paper
(07:42):
application that went into MIT. And I'm, I'm pretty sure it's
what got me in because when I arrived on day one, the, the
admissions people came over and said, we remember your video.
That was fabulous. We really enjoyed that.
And I thought, you see, I just needed to stand out and now I
just have to get through and nowI just have to make it through
(08:03):
because it's not, it's not a sale in the park.
It was a lot of work, but but I I did it so I was I over the
moon we. We might have a run at the most
unconventional route into MIT here in this episode.
So yeah, that's that's an awesome story.
So let look, just moving on then.
(08:24):
So from from your early part of your career, spending a decade
on the trading floor and eventually running a a global
team, just now that you look back retrospectively, what do
you think you learnt about yourself during that particular
period of time? You know, I learned gosh, so
(08:47):
much I I learned. I particularly learned some of
the skills that I was really good at and they were not the
things that schools make you think about.
Schools make you think about, are you good at math or are you
good at English? You know, are you a STEM?
Are you a liberal arts? And, you know, do you like
(09:10):
reading and, and analyzing text or do you want to do a bunch of
really complex math? The truth is that finance is not
about math really. If you can, if you're
comfortable with numbers and youcan multiply up to 12, that's
probably as much as you need to do.
That's probably as much as I ever did really on the trading
floor. Now, to be fair, there was
(09:32):
somebody else doing the really complex stuff in a backroom
without windows somewhere. They did the really hard stuff
and I got to use those models. But I did have to understand the
output and it had to make sense to me.
But but broadly, you know, it's,it's another myth busted.
You don't have to be the biggestmath genius to go into finance.
(09:53):
You just need to know how to multiply and, and be comfortable
with numbers. But the thing that I did learn
about myself is that I was really good at making things
happen. And what does that mean?
I could, I could GSD, as I jokingly call it.
I could get shit done. So if I needed to make a project
(10:16):
happen, you know, I needed to get a presentation out to a
client. So I needed a junior person to
write the presentation. I needed some numbers to be
created by the team over there. I needed to approve some wording
from this team over there. I needed the the legal guys to
check it out. I needed the compliance guys or
(10:37):
the branding guys. Or I could make that happen.
I could move it along. I could get people on board, I
could bring people together. I could manage to make things
happen and I could get it to happen fast and quick and, and I
could help people through complex problems and, and when
(10:58):
people threw obstacles at me, I could figure out how to get
through them and navigate them. And those are not skills that
you're necessarily taught anywhere, right?
You have to figure them out. You have to, it's a bit like
study skills, but it's also about, you know, hurting cats
skills and you know, everybody wants to go in a different
(11:19):
direction. So you've got to pull everybody
together and and push them along.
It's some leadership skills and some management skills and it's
not often taught almost anywhere.
It's something you have to figure out if you can do.
And I figured it out really quickly.
Well, really quickly I did figure it out and I learned that
(11:43):
I wasn't loving being a trader. I wasn't totally loving
marketing, although I was never really in a marketing team.
I did love structuring, but really I I wanted to be the
person that kind of drove the deals, making the deals happen.
That was really fun. And what I figured out as well
was that the way I described my skill set, it was kind of hard
(12:07):
to put me into a specific team. And because I wanted to own
different bits of the process and pull it all together.
And that's not how the the trading floor had been
organized. And so I was, there was a little
bit of friction with how what I was trying to do versus what the
natural organization of the institution was trying to do.
(12:29):
But but I learned a lot about how to navigate all of that.
And it was far more valuable over time than the, you know,
the partial differential equations class, if I'm honest.
Next question, you've kind of, Iguess I'm getting an answer for
that already to some extent because I was going to ask how
(12:49):
did it feel stepping away from afront office trading seat into
start something new eventually going into these boardroom
roles? What drew you to that?
But I'm am I right in thinking it was that strategic element
and this ability to influence and see all parts?
You know, I'll tell you the truth is that when I first
(13:12):
joined JP Morgan, it was clear almost on day one that I was not
going to work my way up that corporate ladder.
And I just it, I knew almost immediately.
And, and in fact, I, I knew, I knew instantly because of the
(13:32):
watch I watch story. There was a, a wonderful guy who
gave, came and gave all the analysts this big presentation
and he showed us his watch and he was so proud of his watch.
He held it up and, and he said he had received it for 25 years
of service at JP Morgan. And I almost hyperventilated
(13:53):
because I thought, Oh my goodness, this guy has has been
working longer than I've been alive in one place.
And he has a watch to show for it.
And I don't want to demean at all his achievement.
He, he had done some amazing things, but it did not resonate
with me at all that pathway. And I knew I was not going to
(14:16):
stay. I just didn't know what was next
for me. And I leaving was hard because
one of the things that those large, big organizations do is
they tell you that you're, you are so lucky to be there.
You are so lucky to be in that seat and that seat has value.
(14:38):
You're just lucky to be sitting in it.
And when you leave, you feel like you are, you're walking
away from this unbelievable opportunity.
How could you possibly give thatup?
It's crazy. And yet yet it no longer
resonated with me. And I knew I needed to leave.
(14:59):
It was time. And let's be honest, I, I didn't
like the politics of navigating my way up the, as some people
say, the greasy pole it was. I wasn't mature enough to do it.
I think I could probably do it today, but even today I might
lose my patience. And you know, working within a
(15:23):
large organization is, is tricky.
It, it takes a certain personality.
And so I left and I started my own thing.
And it was, it was amazing. But honestly, I had identified
as a trader or a structure for so long that when I stepped out
of that role, I had almost an identity crisis.
(15:46):
I knew I was going to become an entrepreneur.
I knew I was setting up a new business, but I, I felt like I,
I had to reinvent myself. And, and thus became my journey
of, of reinvention on a pretty regular basis, actually just
learning that I, I could reinvent myself.
I had the power to reinvent myself and it was a wonderful
(16:12):
way to kind of open up all of myoptions for the future.
So great. And actually the the process of
doing that, I think hopefully wecan dive into some of that with
the subsequent follow up questions now to kind of break
that down because while that's afantastic journey of self
exploration and development, I'msure there's lots of questions
(16:33):
of like, yeah, but how do you have the confidence to do that?
Like, yeah, in that respect. So, and it's not, you know what
we've talked a bit about imposter syndrome.
It's less confidence and more, one might say bravery.
Somebody else might say blind stupidity, stepping into the
(16:57):
unknown. But but I call it bravery.
It was definitely, I think it was terrifying, terrifying,
really scary. And yet I knew I had to do it
and it was the right thing for me.
And so I just, I did it. I was brave.
And that is, it's interesting. There's a book called Be Brave
(17:18):
Not Perfect and it's targeted atwomen where the idea is that
culturally and socially we encourage without necessarily
saying it out loud, we encouragewomen to be perfect.
And so women don't trying new things, don't don't put
themselves out there, not not because they're necessarily
afraid or they are lacking confidence, but they think they
(17:40):
need to be perfect in order to do things.
And that is that perceived obstacle is one of the things
that stops people. And I, I love that phrase, be
brave, not perfect. And, and I can certainly relate.
I can tell you I was brave rather than perfect, that's for
sure. And being brave is the first
(18:01):
step, obviously. But you know, let's take it back
a step. It's more than that.
It's about it's about dreaming big.
You know, just you're not a function of who you are today.
You are entirely a function of your future potential.
So, you know, dig deep. What is that future?
(18:21):
It's huge. It's huge in all of us.
And if you remove those perceived obstacles, if you, if
you let yourself dream and say, what if I weren't afraid?
What if I just take a took a leap?
What if I just tried? What if I told people I wanted
to run the firm? What would they say?
Well, what's the worst thing that could happen?
(18:43):
And you know, what are you scared of?
Maybe they'll laugh. I have been laughed at.
People have laughed to my face about some of my dreams.
And it hurts. Yeah, it hurts.
But. But you got to start.
You got to start somewhere. So, so dream big.
That's the first step, right? You've got to dream big.
I'm feeling pumped now, but the that because I know that you
(19:07):
know, when we've spoken before, you've done, you know, you're a
motivational speaker, you've been involved with schools so
impacting people are very formative years of their
development. You're on the women on boards as
an as an ambassador on that network as well.
So I guess this next part then is a series of questions around
going into deeper into some of these topics, which is women,
(19:28):
self selection, financial independence, all I know things
you care deeply about, but have some really good structural ways
on how to meet these challenges.So going into the first one of
those. So you've spoken about how women
often self select out of opportunities.
You've kind of inferred that from some of what you've
described so far. Why do you think that happens?
(19:51):
And more importantly, what can we do to change that?
Well, a lot of it is, it is perception, self perception
again, these perceived obstaclesor what society teaches us.
And I'll give you a few concreteexamples.
So I was the I ran a course at the Syed Business School at
(20:16):
Oxford University, where I'm an associate fellow and the course
was called Financial Market Trading.
And it was pretty, it was a tough course.
It was considered really tough actually.
And I didn't realize how much I was asking of them until I did
the first year. And then the feedback came that
I was the toughest teacher they had ever had, but the most fun,
(20:37):
I'm going to say the most fun, but the hardest.
And I thought to myself, well, this is fantastic.
I'm teaching what's considered arelatively technical course.
I think I'm, I might be one of the only female lecturers in,
in, in a more in a technical space.
(20:57):
I'm going to get all these womencoming into my class.
And at the time, Saeed was about30% female.
And out of the 100 students, I kept the class at 100 students
because it's hard to IE grading and you got to interact with all
of these. I kept the class at 100
students. Out of 100 students, I got about
10 women that first year. And I, and I thought, well, hang
(21:21):
on, this is even disproportionate from the number
of women in the program itself. This is what, what could
possibly be going on? And, and you know, the research
tells us that women self select out of things where they are,
where, where society has told them they're not going to be
(21:43):
very good. And if you overlay that with the
idea that society's told them they have to be perfect.
So not only are they not going to be not potentially not going
to succeed in this, but but they're supposed to be perfect.
So how can they possibly take that risk?
And, and the, the issue, the area that they're that, that
(22:07):
society implies that women are not very good at is numbers.
And, and you can see it in schools when you look at, and
there's some research on this, when you look at Coed schools
and, and I think the research isaround the US, you look at Coed
schools, you'll see that more boys go into STEM subjects and
more girls go into liberal arts.Now, of course, we're all
(22:30):
talking about stems. So, so this might be changing.
I haven't seen recent statistics, but if you then if
you looked at all boys schools and all girls schools, you see
equal numbers of boys and girls going into STEM and going into
liberal arts. And, and the truth is this, this
push from society for boys to doSTEM and girls to do liberal
(22:50):
arts. You know, boys do the, the hard
subjects and girls do the soft, soft stuff, you know,
terminology I really hate. But this push for society that
for, for us to do this, to segregate ourselves this way, I
mean, First off, it it, it's not, it's not fair to anybody,
(23:11):
right? If we say, well, boys have to do
STEM, well, what about the boys that really want to do the
liberal arts? And if we say girls have to do
liberal arts, what about the girls that really want to do
STEM? And, and then you overlay that
with the idea that actually whatwe're really saying society is
really saying is that girls aren't any good with numbers.
And, and that is it, you know, that is really frustrating and,
(23:35):
and you know, you can see it, you see it in so many places.
And, you know, I'll give you another example where it
manifests itself. A lot of women coming who took
my class, who were brave enough to take my class at Oxford would
then call me up after and they would say, look, I'm, I'm
applying to, you know, private equity, or I'm applying to hedge
(23:57):
funds or I'm applying to banks. And the feedback I'm getting
from my interviews is that I would be amazing in a sales
role. And actually what I really want
is an investing role or a trading role, or, you know, a
more analytical role, But I'm being railroaded into a, a role
because of my gender. And, and ultimately it's, it is
(24:21):
no one's fault. So there's, there's no point in,
in, in blame or getting angry. The, the important thing, I
think is to be aware, to be aware that no one is necessarily
saying you can't do it, but there, there is a, an
unconscious bias that people areacting on.
So, so you just have to hit it on the head and you have to say,
(24:43):
well, hang on a minute, I'm going to be brave.
I'm going to take this class. I'm going to be brave.
I'm going to go for the job I really want and not the job I'm
being told that I should do because of my gender.
I'm going to be brave. And when someone says I should
do something else, I'm going to tell them I, I love your
feedback. Thank you so much for that.
But I'm actually really, really good at the numbers and I'd
(25:05):
really like to do this job. And then when you get into that
role, you prove yourself and andyou know, I'm sorry to say
you're going to have to do that a few times probably along your
journey, but it's OK. Don't get angry.
Just it is what it is. Our goal all of us today is to,
(25:27):
you know, get into these organizations to put ourselves
forward for the jobs we want, not the jobs we should have for
our gender, and work our way up and change it from the inside
and, you know, and change people's perception of what we
can do. And, and I think, I think it's,
look, there are lots of ways to impact and change the world.
(25:50):
And I think one of them is, is encouraging women to do exactly
what they believe they can do, what they know they can do.
When women do opt out early, it's not just about that
opportunity or that job or that promotion.
This can create a lifelong impact on financial literacy,
financial independence as well. So how does that cycle come into
(26:14):
it in in later life that young women probably are maybe not
quite thinking about at that moment in time, but is a very
important. Well, I think look, there, there
are so many different paths thatpeople can take and there are
lots of other pressures on people outside of career
choices. And, you know, socially there's,
(26:38):
you know, partnership, marriage,maybe children or maybe you
become primary caregiver. Maybe you become primary
caregiver, not just of children or maybe not of children, but
maybe of, of aging parents or, or relatives.
There are so many competing holes on your time.
(26:58):
And, and of course, depending onwhat, where you live, they're
either you're going to feel themin different ways.
And we all make compromises. All of us, not, not just women,
obviously all of us make compromises along the way.
But one of the things that I, I do talk about is, is financial
independence. I think it is a really critical
(27:20):
part of every every individual'sjourney.
And again, it's not very gender specific this, although it can
be gender specific. So financial independence is
critical. And what that means is if you
feel the pressure from society that tells you that you're not
(27:41):
very good at numbers or maybe finances are a little a little
complicated. Again, I want to repeat, you
just need to be able to multiply.
I know we can all multiply. So there is no barrier for women
to understand their own financesand to understand how to be
financially independent. But you know, the, the important
(28:06):
thing is that you you think to yourself, what does my future
look like and how do I get therein a safe and secure way?
And one of those sayings we havein the US is that most women are
one death or one divorce away from the breadline, which
implies now it's an old saying. And again, I'm hoping that that
(28:29):
saying is going away and it's changing.
But but the implication has beenin the past that that women are
not financially independent. And it's a critical journey that
we all have to go on. And it's one we should not be
afraid of because honestly, you just need to multiply the, the
issue. The reason it gets complicated
(28:49):
or seems complicated is that it's full of vocabulary.
Now, if you think about that, it's kind of funny because
actually what women are told in school is that they're really
good at liberal arts. They're really good at reading
and learning vocabulary. And, and, and actually financial
independence is just, is more about vocabulary than it is
(29:10):
about numbers. So where you know, again, that
perceived barrier, take it away and just ensure that you're
you've got the independence thatwe all deserve and need.
And another part of that, that journey then to believe that
they can take ownership almost to to find their own destiny, I
(29:31):
guess comes down to to confidence.
And for me, it was being someonewho works in a community all of
the time. I get to interact with these
amazing young women. I can only sympathize to a
certain degree because I am fundamentally different in a way
and and how I've been treated bysociety has been different in
that way of being a guy. So you having worked with the
Prince's Trust speakers for schools, what are actually what
(29:55):
makes a difference when it comesto building confidence in young
women? You know what really makes a
difference? So I've talked about already.
I've talked about being brave, not perfect.
I've talked about just taking risk, right?
It's OK to try and do something that's a little scary.
(30:15):
It is. It is critical that you reach
inside and you know yourself andfigure out what is possible,
what is the future You look like, you know, dream really
big. Those are important steps.
However, probably the most important bit on this journey is
that everybody's journey is unique.
(30:36):
So your journey is your own, butyou're not alone.
You can do this with the supportof the community around you,
right? Make sure that you have people
around you who are prepared to support you.
You have a phone, a friend, you have a family member or somebody
who's sitting there and is your personal cheerleader.
(31:00):
And as much as you cheer them on, they cheer you on.
And if you don't feel you have that, you need to go and
cultivate that. We all need a support system
around ourselves. We're not.
We're human. We need that connection.
And so while your path is your own, and your hopes and your
(31:21):
dreams are your own, your futurepotential is your own.
You are not alone. Right.
So it's almost so simple, but sopowerful.
I guess it's that whole leap of faith to have the trust to be
confident to make those decisions.
(31:43):
But but also, you know, just just just say to yourself, you
know what, this is going to fail.
I'm going to do it, but it's going to fail.
That's what I say. I'm going to do it, but it's
going to fail. I hope it goes well, but I
expect them to say no or laugh in my face.
What's the worst that could happen?
And I just I, I, I kind of role play with myself.
(32:04):
What's the worst that can happen?
They're going to laugh at me. OK, I can deal with laugh.
They're going to laugh. So what, They're idiots, you
know, I'm so, you know, I'm going to Wolfson and I'm going
to say this is what I'd like to do.
And they laugh and off I go. I, you know, I go and cry in the
bathroom and call my best friendwho says, Terry, you're amazing,
you can do this. Don't worry.
(32:25):
You know, they don't know what they're talking about.
Just don't give up. And and that's the path we all
have to be prepared to take it. Look, life isn't easy at any
stage. So nothing, you know, we
shouldn't expect that all of these steps forward are going to
(32:49):
be a walk in the park. So along the way, we've all
taken risk in so many different ways.
Why not take it as well with what you'd like to achieve and
what your, you know, hopes and dreams are?
I totally agree, I'm the father of two young daughters and I can
see first hand from being a parent how different the the
(33:09):
girls are treated to the boys even at a very young primary
school age. So when society is putting the
burden of perfection on them, what are small little practical
things that you can do to get comfortable to being brave?
Well, I think, I think role models are changing a bit for
(33:31):
girls and I think that's really important.
My daughter did something amazing when she was about 87
and she was, she had decided to join the parkour club at her
school. And, you know, parkour, where
you crawl on the wall and you jump around and slide on the
(33:54):
railings and all of this. And she was the only girl.
And the school told the club members to line up on the
sidewalk. So there was a line of boys.
And then Aspen was in this line somewhere and all the boys were
acting out. And my daughter was, I think she
(34:17):
was just standing there for somereason.
And one of the teachers came by and said, come on, boy.
Something like, come on, boys, look at Aspen.
I mean, can't you behave like that?
You know, like Aspen? I mean, this is, you know,
behave yourselves. Be a bit more like Aspen.
And Aspen turned to him, and shesaid, whoa, don't, you know,
(34:37):
don't expect that just because I'm a girl that I'm going to
behave a certain way. She was so offended because she
felt that it was some gender slur that had just occurred, and
she was furious. And she came home so angry and I
thought, wow, good for you. She said, just because I'm a
(34:58):
girl, don't expect me to be. She said something like, don't
expect me to be perfect. And I thought, wow, where did
she get that from? You know, because they're
they're who knows, everybody's alittle different.
Thank thankfully. That makes that's what makes the
world interesting. But I think that the the role
models are changing. And I think that's, I think
(35:20):
that's fantastic. And I think, you know, you just
encourage the, you know, the, the, the strong and capable role
models, the ones that make you comfortable as a parent.
I, there are so many to choose from.
Look, I, I don't want to judge and I, I think it's in, it's, I
(35:40):
have to tell you that I have never had a job as hard as being
a parent. I'm so I, I, gosh, I was so
judgy before I was a parent. Oh, I'm never going to let my
kid do that. I'm never going to let my kid do
that. Oh, my goodness.
What terrible parenting. I had no idea, really no idea
(36:01):
how hard it was. Right.
And I'm just conscious of, of your time.
So I think there's so much that you you've shared that's been
amazing. I just wondered whether if you
were going to distill it down to1 simple message to young women
listening to this, you might be,you know, bright, curious but
unsure about finance as an area.You've kind of talked about the
(36:25):
numbers aspect and the multiplication aspect.
Is there anything else you'd like them to hear as a final
message? Look, I I'm final message.
You are not alone. Dream big, take risk, be brave,
do not give up. Use use your community.
(36:48):
You are not alone. Do not give up.
You can do this. Amazing.
Thank you, Terry, so much for your for your time, your
insights. It's been brilliant.
You're welcome.
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