December 6, 2023 • 44 mins
Ever been curious about the magic that marketing can bring to an AEC firm? Well, you're in for a treat. Today, we're diving into an incredible story with BJ Kraemer, the go-getter President and CEO of MCFA. BJ's not your everyday leader; his transition from military life to running a standout AEC firm is nothing short of inspiring. And guess what? He's here to spill the beans on why marketing is so darn important in business planning.
In our chat, BJ brings to light the undeniable power of human connections in branding. Plus, he gives us the lowdown on how digital transformation is shaking things up in marketing and the AEC industry. It's all about people, and BJ gets it!
Now, here's where it gets really interesting. BJ breaks down how a CEO and marketing can join forces to create something extraordinary. We're talking visionary yet totally doable marketing strategies. But wait, it's not all about the money. Nope, we're focusing on the real impact of these strategies - the kind that makes you go 'Wow!'.
Hold on, because BJ's got more wisdom to share. We're delving into the tricky but crucial task of aligning marketing with sales goals. And get this – it's not just about short-term wins; we're playing the long game too.
As we peek into the future of AEC marketing in our ever-changing world, BJ reveals his unique approach to keeping his team and clients engaged – think internal emails with a twist. We're lighting up the path of AEC marketing, unpacking the importance of really getting your clients and the power of top-notch leadership.
And because BJ is all about giving back, he shares his passion for his non-profit work. Trust me, you'll leave this conversation not just thinking differently about AEC marketing and leadership, but feeling inspired to make your own mark.
So, let's dive in and turn your AEC marketing strategies upside down – in the best way possible. Ready? Click that play button to get started!
Want more AEC marketing goodness?
- New to proposals? Download my FREE “RFPs for Beginners – The Ultimate Proposal Management Checklist.”
- Stop planning, start creating with my FREE “Ultimate AEC Content Marketing Starter Kit.”
- Follow Lindsay on LinkedIn and Instagram.
- Collaborate with other AEC Marketers in our Facebook Group.
- Purchase bite-sized, on-demand templates and training at the Marketers Place.
- Enroll in online training: The Proposal Pro or Content Marketing Clarity.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 2 (00:03):
Hey there, I'm Lindsay Dibbin and I'm
passionate about everythingmarketing, productivity and
career growth.
With over 17 years ofexperience in the architecture,
engineering and constructionindustry, I know firsthand the
ins and outs of this excitingfield, from my early days as a
marketing coordinator tobecoming an award-winning
(00:23):
marketing professional.
In firm principle, I've learnedthe ropes through countless
late nights and challengingdeadlines.
Now I'm thrilled to bring youthe AEC Marketing Strategies
Podcast.
Here I'll be sharing simple yetpowerful, step-by-step
marketing strategies that youcan implement to achieve the
(00:44):
same level of success.
Consider me your go-tomarketing mentor, someone who
truly gets the unique challengesyou face in the AEC industry.
Whether you're an AEC MarketingPro or industry newbie, this
podcast is your personal coffeedate with your marketing bestie.
Together, we'll navigate theever-changing landscape of
(01:06):
online marketing and digitaltrends, ensuring you stay ahead
of the curve.
If you're ready to unlock themarketing secrets they never
taught you in college and tailorthem specifically to the AEC
industry, then you're in theright place.
Now let's get started.
Welcome back, my friend.
(01:27):
I am thrilled to bring you adifferent but refreshing
perspective on today's show.
I'm talking with BJ Kramer,president and CEO of MCFA, a
renowned service disabledveteran-owned small business.
But that's not all.
Bj is also the voice behind theInspiring People and Places
(01:49):
podcast, and he has a weeklynewsletter as well.
His insights into the AEC worldare not just informative but
transformative.
But first I want to give ashout out to Matt Handel from
helpeverybodyeverydaycom, whoconnected BJ and me.
So thanks, matt, forrecommending BJ for the show.
(02:12):
Okay, so BJ is going to sharehow he, as the CEO, integrates
marketing strategies into hisfirm, into his firm's overall
business planning, why AECMarketing has a lot to learn
from personalities like Chip andJoanna Gaines, and why he sees
himself as one of the mostimportant brand advocates for
(02:34):
his firm or brand ambassadorsfor his firm.
We also discuss marketingchallenges, the impact of
digital transformation andemerging trends in both
marketing and our industry as awhole.
Okay, so now let's get to theinterview.
Okay, welcome With me today isBJ Kramer.
He is the president and CEO ofMCFA.
(02:57):
So hi, bj, welcome to the show.
Speaker 1 (03:01):
Lindsay, so great to be here.
Thank you for having me.
Speaker 2 (03:04):
Yes.
So for those who don't know,you tell us a little bit about
yourself, your career path andhow you got here and what you're
doing today.
Speaker 1 (03:13):
Sure, so I'll go back .
I graduated from West Point theUnited States Military Academy,
had a career on active duty asan engineer officer.
I did a combat assignment sosome operational stuff and then
went to grad school, had theopportunity to have a
utilization tour with the ArmyCorps of Engineers and there's a
(03:36):
bit of marketing and advocatingand self-advocating inside of
the Army of how I got theassignment but ended up on a $2
billion military constructionproject as, like the third
person on site, the only uniformon site, and it opened up my
eyes to the big AEC world andreally, from there the rest is
(03:57):
history.
But I joined MCFA in 2012.
When I got off active duty In2018, I had a conversation with
the owner about acquiring themajority ownership of the
company and really laying out awin-win strategy for how to do
that and what my vision was forthe company.
So that happened in 2018.
We became a service disabled,better known as Small Business,
(04:19):
in 2019.
And over the last four years wehave built a leadership team
and we took the company from 17people to 50 people and growing,
and there's a whole bunch ofpunches in the faces and lessons
learned everywhere in between,including marketing, business
development sales.
So I should say I started outas a professional in the
(04:45):
industry, as a project manager,construction manager, but I was
a resident engineer on activeduty.
I got to keep that assignmentas a civilian contractor before
that project ended and then cameto MCFA, interestingly enough,
as director of strategy andbusiness development.
So I came here on a businessdevelopment path which I think
(05:08):
is maybe somewhat unique for theindustry.
Speaker 2 (05:11):
Oh, definitely, definitely.
Speaker 1 (05:13):
And probably we'll put a lot of flavor to this
conversation, so hopefully wecan add some value to your
audience.
Speaker 2 (05:20):
Yeah, no, it's definitely rare to Well, you
kind of came from the owner side.
Speaker 1 (05:26):
I did Yep.
Speaker 2 (05:27):
I'm going to an Army Corps and then come in as on the
business development track andthen work your way up, and now
you're president and CEO.
So I think this is going to bea really fun conversation.
Speaker 1 (05:40):
I'm excited for it.
Speaker 2 (05:42):
So let's get into it.
So, as a president and CEO, how?
And then, coming up to thisbusiness development path, how
do you integrate your marketingstrategies into your overall
business planning and youroverall strategic planning?
Speaker 1 (05:57):
I don't have a real concise answer to this, other
than it's everything.
I think that as a smallbusiness, you have to build a
brand and you build your brandthrough your people.
So you have to be veryintentional about what that
brand is.
Like I said, we started with 17people or when I came here we
were probably 25, 30 people.
We kind of shrunk and then wegrew.
(06:18):
And I say all the time ourpeople are a brand right,
because they're out thererepresenting our firm.
But I'm also a big Simon Sinekstart with YGuy and I watched
that TED Talk a thousand timesprobably.
I read the book and when I thinkabout even how I ended up at
(06:39):
MCFA, they had a website and theslogan on the website was we're
a dedicated team of problemsolvers.
So I've always been somebodythat's been attracted to brand
and I think that's the start ofmarketing strategy is what does
your company represent to themarketplace?
So our brand is about people.
(06:59):
Everything we talk about isabout our people, our culture.
Everything that we're doing atMCFA is about empowering our
people to be brand ambassadorsin whatever way they are,
because your best marketing isgood client service, it's good
account management, it'sdelivering on what you promised.
(07:20):
So the hardest or the cheapestcustomer to keep is the one you
have.
The hardest customer to get isthe one you don't have.
So I think we put a lot ofemphasis on account management
and customer service and howthat plays into who we are as a
company and what we are.
Did I do a good enough jobanswering that?
Speaker 2 (07:44):
Yeah, I like that.
All the marketers listening arelike yes, yes, we're here.
I started with Brian, hestarted with people, so I know
you're getting a lot of like yes.
Speaker 1 (07:54):
And it's counter to our industry.
And I can go, I can bash on ourindustry.
Aec to me stands for archaic,expensive and complicated.
There's not a problem, we can'tover complicate, and some of
that's because of the way we'retaught to think.
I'm an engineer by education.
We tend to think about projectsas managing risks, mitigating
(08:18):
risks, getting it done right,and marketing is more about
pushing the edge and puttingyourself out there.
It's kind of counter-culturalto our industry.
So I joke that I bash on it.
But when I speak to marketers Isay that your job is to push us
forward us being the engineersforward in the industry and in
(08:40):
the world, because we are doinga lot of good work as an
industry.
I was at a conference, an M&Aconference for our industry, and
the punchline was we're solvingworlds or humanity's greatest
problems or greatest threats.
So we're doing all of this goodstuff but we can't seem to
market because we get so focusedon proposals that we forget
(09:04):
that marketing principles apply.
Understanding how people think,how people buy we get so
focused on is the SF 330 writer.
Is my proposal coordinated?
And did I dot eyes and crossT's because the big buyer in our
industry is a publicprocurement officer in some way,
shape or form, so we all rallyaround their process, but at the
(09:24):
end of the day, they're a humantoo, and marketing is about
connecting with human beings andtelling them the story of what
we do, and I think our industryis doing a bad job telling our
story of what we do to anybodyother than the public buyer
that's competing out thecontract that we're chasing.
So I might have gone off trackon you there, but no, I love it.
Speaker 2 (09:49):
You put into words what our frustrations are and
you put it into words soeloquently.
We are.
I always tell people I'veworked with literal rocket
scientists we are solving, likeyou said solving the world's
problems, solving the world'sthreats.
And if we can't tell thosestories, it's just a shame it is
(10:12):
.
And when I work with engineers,they're like, oh, that's just
my job.
And I'm like, well, no, it is,but it's an amazing job and we
need to talk about it.
Speaker 1 (10:20):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (10:20):
I mean, I don't know why we don't have the really
cool commercials like the iPhonecommercials and the brand like
that.
Speaker 1 (10:27):
So I was just on a podcast talking about why don't
we have and I don't volunteer tobe Chip Gaines here, but the
Chip and Joanna Gaines of HGTV,like I get it residential house
flipping is sexy and it's kindof cool and it's something
everybody can connect with.
But the problems and projectswe're executing in our industry
(10:48):
in whatever publicinfrastructure sector to private
development our industry doesreally awesome stuff and we just
don't do a good job of tellingthe story to anybody but
ourselves.
So yeah.
One of the biggest challengesthat I challenge to your
audience is because there's alsoa selfish part of this is it's
(11:09):
also how we attract talent toour industry in the future, and
we have a big aging workforceand while a lot of people are
talking about how AI and machinelearning and all of this is
going to maybe reduce the needfor the human capital we have in
our industry, I'm not quitesure that's going to happen.
(11:30):
So we have to be attractingtalent to our industry as well,
and the way you do that isthrough marketing.
Speaker 2 (11:39):
You make it exciting and sexy.
Exactly yeah.
So when you said Chip andJoanna Gaines, that just means
we think of like we should havea reality show like flipping
streets.
The Chip and Joanna Gaines isrelatable because it's relatable
to the normal person.
Speaker 1 (11:57):
Totally.
Speaker 2 (11:58):
And so if we just talk about, well, how do we time
the traffic lights and how doyou get your road widened, we
should do flipping streets.
Speaker 1 (12:06):
Yeah, how do you get clean water in your house or
electric in your house?
Speaker 2 (12:11):
Yeah, so I was attending a virtual conference
and the keynote speaker wastalking about like A to B
content, social content and notto make it boring and she was
citing I forget what waterdistrict it was.
It was a water district orsewer district in Ohio and they
were just having so much funwith their social media and
(12:34):
talking about poo and toiletclogs and stuff like that.
So it was just she was citingit.
It wasn't even like an AECconference, this was just a
general B to B marketingconference, I think what you
just said.
Speaker 1 (12:47):
Right, there is what we have to change.
We're not a B to B.
We can't think B to B, we haveto think B to C.
Who are the end users?
Who are the humans?
Because when you market towardsa procurement department,
you're like selling your companyto that agency, but really what
we're doing is selling ourcapabilities to individual
(13:08):
buyers who are like they'regoing to be the people we work
with or they're representing thepeople we're going to work with
and, like you, cannot take therelationship or the humanity out
of what we do.
It's a people driven industry.
There's people on the ownerside that are trying to solve
problems, execute projects, doour taxpayer investments better,
and there's people on our sidethat bring a bunch of different
(13:30):
technical expertise to thoseproblem sets.
It's a human interaction game.
We're in the people businessand we got to do a better job of
treating those people asconsumers to support and help,
versus as entities to RFP andpropose and interview with.
Speaker 2 (13:48):
Yeah, and I'm waiting .
Hopefully a listener islistening and maybe they'll
start a reality, because now youcan just do your own reality
show and just put it on YouTube.
I want to see flipping streets.
Speaker 1 (13:59):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (14:03):
Or flipping commercial buildouts or flipping
.
Speaker 1 (14:06):
Yeah, flip this infrastructure, yeah.
Speaker 2 (14:08):
Yeah, so all right.
So we talked a little bit aboutthe challenges that we face
today.
I feel like we've kind of hitthat no-transcript With those
challenges today and thechallenges within our industry.
As you're looking throughmarketing through the lens of a
CEO, how important is the CEOrole in shaping and driving the
(14:34):
marketing vision for a firm?
Speaker 1 (14:37):
I think it's a push-pull.
So I look at the marketingdepartment.
Look, don't get me wrong, youcan't change marketing in our
industry overnight.
So just because I have apodcast and a LinkedIn account
and believe in B2C doesn't meanthat we stop responding to RFPs,
right?
Right, because they propose aworld.
So we have to have the processin place to chase work.
(14:59):
I look at marketing as thegrowth engine of the company and
I look at myself as the chiefbrand officer, the chief brand
ambassador, the chief growthofficer in many ways.
So it's a back and forth pushand pull between them, trying to
help me think outside of thebox, think creatively.
I certainly produce a ton ofcontent and it's me producing it
(15:21):
.
I've tried outsourcing this tocopywriters and people and I
have so much out there that youjust I'm not comfortable handing
my voice over to somebody.
So I go back to the push pullbetween the CEO and marketing
and sales, and I always putmarketing and sales together
because I want people toremember, at the end of the day,
(15:44):
the reason that proposal isgoing in is because we're trying
to sell a client, to bringrevenue in the door.
We're not being rated on theamount of proposals we get out
the door.
We're getting rated on theamount of money we bring in the
door.
So don't separate marketing andsales.
I think that I set the pace.
I am responsible for bringingthe enthusiasm, the desire to
(16:08):
grow.
I don't think anybody can sellanything they don't believe in.
So I have to also bring theconfidence to the table to make
people understand that I am notafraid of growth, I'm not afraid
of pushing the boundaries I'mnot afraid of.
I believe that we have thecapability to solve any problem
(16:28):
a client brings to us.
And when I set that as a visionand when I set that as my
viewpoint, my perspective, I'mtrying to tell people, go out
and tell our story to whoeveryou think needs to hear it.
So in my company I probably set70% of that strategy and then
(16:54):
we have a fractional chiefmarketing officer and a
marketing team behind him thatthey are operationalizing that
vision.
And then they're tasking mewith what parts of it?
And we argue about it becausewe got to tell this story to
everybody.
And my chief marketing officeris like well, it costs money to
get to everybody and we can'twin everybody, so we've got to
(17:15):
be.
And so that tension is goodbecause it does challenge me as
more of a visionary hey, we canchange this entire industry
overnight type of person tosomebody who's more pragmatic
and is like hey, boss, I know wecan change the world overnight,
but we also have to pay thebills and win work, and you're
(17:36):
rating me on the amount ofdollars coming in the door, not
just the amount of people you'retalking to.
So, from my view, I'm 100%responsible for making sure
we're setting the stage toenable our marketing team to do
what they want to do, givingthem the creative flexibility to
go out there and pushboundaries and test things the
(17:59):
budget to test things while alsobeing pragmatic that this has
to result in something Right.
Don't just market formarketing's sake.
Speaker 2 (18:10):
Right.
You're not just doing creativeads to do creative ads, or
creative things to do creativethings.
It has a purpose and thatpurpose is you can potentially
position you to win more work.
Speaker 1 (18:22):
Correct.
The other thing is you can havelong game and short game
strategies.
So me starting a podcast was along game strategy Said I don't
want to hear any of the datauntil after four years.
It's like, hey, freshman yearof high school, I wasn't that
good at anything.
By senior year, big man oncampus.
That's going to go on in anyinitiative we take on.
(18:44):
So why distract ourselves byjudging ourselves for something
we can't really say we're goodat?
Yet I never recorded a podcastbefore.
So hey, we're taking a budgetand we're going to R&D this part
.
I expect no results out of this.
If we get results, great.
If there's some brand halo orsome halo effect to us doing
(19:07):
something different, great.
But I'm not going to make adecision whether to continue or
stop until after four years.
So I think you have to be ableto play some long game there and
to allocate some budget andtime in the marketing department
to do that, while doing the dayto day blocking and tackling.
Speaker 2 (19:26):
Yeah, I love that.
Yeah, because people ask me allthe time I teach a lot of
content marketing and they'relike, well, how fast, if we
start a blog campaign and we'redoing a blog a week or every
other week or a month, when am Igoing to get the client reached
out to me?
And I'm like, well, contentmarketing is a long game.
If you have a three to five toseven year strategic plan, the
(19:47):
people you want at the end ofthat strategic plan that's who
you're blogging for today.
That's the long game, or that'swho you're doing a podcast for
today to try to attract.
So I like your approach of agood mix of long game, short
game strategy.
And I think sometimes marketersget in our own way, because I
(20:09):
think we put pressure onourselves to constantly be
showing ROI because I know I dofor every initiative and some of
it is just really brandawareness and really keeping
your brand out in front of theright people and you can't
really measure that.
Whereas some of it is verytargeted.
(20:29):
You're organizing a campaign.
It's very targeted for thisparticular conference and you
want these many people to cometo your booth, so it's very
specific or number of meetingsset up at the conference because
you're doing thispre-conference campaign.
But I think sometimes we putpressure on ourselves because
we've been told oh, you got toshow our ROI, you got to show
our ROI.
And I tell my students and thepeople that I train I'm like you
(20:53):
don't always have ROI or yourROI might not be quantifiable,
but you can measure it in otherways.
Speaker 1 (21:00):
I call it fuzzy ROI, right, and there are certain
things that can have fuzzy ROI,and if my team is listening,
stop listening.
You have to be able to have aconversation about it and argue
about what the ROI is, and noteverything needs to have a
dollar ROI.
Everything has to have a resultROI Everything.
(21:22):
What is the result we'regetting by doing this activity?
Our podcast result is overthree years, we have 100
podcasts out there, or 120podcasts out there.
That's a result.
Now, is it converting toanything?
Maybe, maybe not.
That's where fuzzy is.
But hey, to your point, brandpresence.
(21:44):
How many other people, how manyother AEC firms, have a CEO
doing 100 plus podcasts outthere on the web being listened
to?
Speaker 2 (21:53):
Yeah, forever.
It's so shelf stable too.
It's not just like a LinkedInpost that it's out of your feed
in two days.
Speaker 1 (22:01):
Right.
So there's, you've gotta beable to have that push and pull,
but you also do need to betalking metrics, right, because
when I spend $5,000 for aconference booth, it's like what
are we getting there?
And I am critical of theconference industry because the
(22:22):
conference industry is inbusiness for the conference host
.
Speaker 2 (22:26):
Yes, there's that it's a money making venture.
It is a for profit conference.
Speaker 1 (22:33):
Totally, and there's a lot of good ones and it's
great like consolidating,catching up with the network.
Before you and I got on, wetalked about how it's hard to
even keep up with the peoplethat we've had on our podcast.
So we have this one hourintimate conversation and it's
like, hey, we're all busy.
Like how do we stay on eachother's radar?
Is it worth staying on eachother's radar?
(22:54):
Like there's nothing wrong withus having a conversation and
wanting to have a genuinerelationship over time, but like
we all have a limited amount oftime to invest in maintaining
relationships staying up.
So the conferences are a goodplace to kind of consolidate
that networking and connectionpoints.
I got off track about ROW.
(23:15):
I will shut up.
Speaker 2 (23:16):
That's okay.
Speaker 1 (23:17):
But my challenge to everybody is it's not always a
financial ROI, but it does needto have a result, because that's
how we can say we went thereand we accomplished what we set
out to accomplish.
When we started the podcast, wedidn't say we're gonna get one
client a year out of thispodcast.
We said we're going to build apodcast.
So now we have a podcast, allright.
(23:39):
As we start to look at data andsay how do we enhance this and
do we want sponsors?
Do we want commercials?
Do we want paid listeners?
We'll explore that as we go.
Speaker 2 (23:51):
Yeah, I love that.
I love it.
So, speaking of the podcast, soyou do a podcast and you said
you do other content.
I think that also includes aweekly newsletter, yep, and your
podcast the name of the podcastwe've been talking about it.
Let me plug it for you.
So the podcast is calledInspiring People and Places.
That's correct, so make sureyou go and subscribe to that,
(24:14):
please, and listen to that.
So you've been doing thepodcast now for three plus years
.
You're writing a weeklynewsletter.
We talked a little bit aboutyour results and stuff like that
, but this is all digital.
I call this the digitaltransformation or, if others
have listened to my podcast,like modern marketing or mod
marketing strategies.
(24:35):
How are you seeing this digitalor mod transformation impacting
other marketing strategies inour industry?
Speaker 1 (24:44):
So let's go back to the conference.
I've got a lot to talk abouthere.
Let me talk about the email.
Ok, so the email started inCOVID.
It started out as an internalemail for me to just like put
enthusiasm out to our team.
Like, hey, the first, there'salways a quote in the email and
(25:05):
the first quote was perpetualoptimism as a force multiplier
by Colin Powell, and I just feltlike it was all doom and gloom
and our team needed to hearsomething positive.
Like, hey, stay engaged, covid,it'll be done in two weeks,
right.
And then I was like, well,actually, this is kind of a way
for me COVID is extending, if weput this out, to a bigger list,
(25:29):
like our clients and maybe someconferences we've attended that
we've taken their emaildistribution list.
This is a way for me to bedoing business development in a
time when I can't have coffeewith people.
So I'm sending this out Fridaynight or Saturday morning and
this is like me having coffeewith them on a Saturday morning.
And that was the intent and itwas all about.
(25:51):
I believe that our business isa relationship business and it's
a B2C concept.
Like, hey, I can't send anemail to every person I'd love
to stay in touch with, and Ican't walk the halls of client
buildings anymore and leave mybusiness card when they're not
there or catch up for fiveminutes when they are there.
I can't do that right now.
(26:12):
So this is a way to scale thatactivity and do it while we're
in this COVID shutdown.
So that led to a lot of good,positive feedback.
And then that annual trainingor that annual planning cycle.
I had always kicked around thisidea of a podcast for our
industry, because I was lookingfor something that I wanted
(26:34):
which was something that waslike talking about different
projects and different people inthe industry, highlighting
success stories and innovationand career paths and all this
stuff that Tim Ferriss talksabout it with every technology
success story that you've everheard of, or Silicon Valley
(26:55):
entrepreneur that everybodyhears about.
We don't hear about that in ourindustry.
What if we did this?
That's kind of how it started,and I guess I'm a believer in
the long game that if we can bea first mover to it, our
industry is behind in it.
Maybe we start setting astandard and maybe by setting a
standard, we're at the table.
(27:16):
So that's did I answer yourquestion?
Speaker 2 (27:21):
Yeah, I think so.
I love that you started it asan internal message or email and
then you're like well,shouldn't I say the same thing
to our clients?
Speaker 1 (27:33):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (27:33):
So I love that approach because a lot of people
wouldn't think to that.
They think they have to talkdifferently to clients than they
do to employees.
And back to your like B2C, likewe were all collectively,
especially at that time, we wereall collectively going through
the same thing.
What better time to have thesame message to everybody and so
I talk a lot about our company,our culture.
Speaker 1 (27:56):
I'm putting out my view of the world and to some
degree that may turn some peopleoff, and great, let's turn them
off before we're their clients,because we're not changing and
like we don't have a cult of mebehind me.
Right, we have a very diverseworkforce, very different views,
but like I think what kind ofpulls us all together is these
(28:17):
core values around which we talkand how we build our culture,
and to me, that is what's goingto either connect us to a client
or drive a client away, andthat's a group like that's back
to people.
By what does Simon Sennig say?
People?
By why you do not what you doso they buy your.
Why not your what?
(28:37):
And if we're constantly talkingabout that, which?
Back to the title of the podcastinspiring people in places.
Our why is to inspire people.
Those people are our clients,our partners and our employees
and places, which are the builtenvironment in which we work.
My job is to build a companythat allows and empowers our
(28:58):
people to have fulfillingcareers and to go serve clients
and execute their projects well,so that our clients are rating
fans of us.
And I have that on our flywheel.
It's all I talk about.
So our why is what we'retalking about all of the time
inside of our marketing?
Speaker 2 (29:16):
Yeah, I love that.
I like that you are verycrystal clear on your why.
I know sometimes previous firmsI worked at or people I talked
to and firms that they work atthere's no real clear why.
It's like we do all the thingsfor all the people, but that's
to what right.
Speaker 1 (29:35):
Yeah, that's the services on the outside.
So if anybody hasn't watchedthe Simon Sinek, watch it.
Speaker 2 (29:43):
I'll make sure I link it up.
I've watched it like agazillion times so, but I love
it.
Go listen again.
Go listen to the podcast.
It's called inspiring peopleand places and be inspired.
So we've talked about whatyou've done.
Let's look at the future andlook out.
There's probably still going tobe.
I mean, we're kind of out ofCOVID, but now there's still
(30:08):
like radical transformationhappening with AI and with.
Maybe there's going to be arecession, maybe there's not.
We've been hearing now for likethree years there's going to be
a recession.
So, looking towards the future,with all this stuff going on,
what runs, what is emerging thatyou are seeing in marketing, in
(30:31):
particular for the AEC industry?
We're just marketing inparticular, that should be in
the AEC industry.
Speaker 1 (30:38):
I go back to.
So there's an interview betweenGary Vaynerchuk and Ryan
Holiday and I want to say it'sDecember of 21 that this came
out and they get into aconversation about agency people
having autonomy and agency intheir careers.
And I think two things.
(30:59):
One, I think the future looks alot more like Uber than it
looks like the AEC industry,meaning people are going to have
ways to be side hustling andbeing entrepreneurial without
feeling the risk of being anentrepreneur.
I believe that to be true andI've used the phrase Uber for
(31:22):
engineers, where you've got thisportal where people can go sign
up for the projects they wantto and kind of work on the stuff
that gets them excited or isgeographically advantageous to
them.
So like, no longer is theindustry controlled by three,
six, 10 mega corporations, butthere's a lot more autonomy and
(31:45):
agency to the employee.
So I am trying to build acompany that accepts that and
empowers it, doesn't shy awayfrom it, and even around the
thought leadership.
It's like I started doingthought leadership or content
marketing or podcasting andemailing because I thought it
was the best way to talk aboutwhat we do and I'm not really
(32:09):
good at talking about me, so Itry to talk about my team and
what they do and the projectsthat they're on and how smart
they are, because that's who ourcompany is.
So I wanted to demonstrate thatto our team and then hopefully,
at some point in time, theplatform is powerful enough that
when I'm hosting our own teammembers on that podcast or one
(32:31):
of our team members is doing aquote lunch and learn as a
podcast, now that message isgetting out to a much wider
audience.
We used to have to go toconferences to speak and maybe
be looked at as an industryexpert.
If I know, I have industryexperts in my company and I can
give them a platform and I'mgiving them the autonomy to go
(32:52):
do some cool work and find theclients.
So that's why I have this B2Cvision of the future of our
industry is, at some point intime, autonomy and agency is
going to go to the professionaland there's going to be some
level of disruption in the quotecorporate side of that.
(33:15):
Then I get into AI and machinelearning and where is that going
to take our industry?
And you've got robotic buildingconstruction going on and all
that.
The other part of my company isthat we're building project
leaders and leadership can't bereplaced by technology.
So they're going to betechnical professionals, they're
going to have technical depthin certain areas and, like I
(33:37):
started, engineering backgroundis a really good place to learn
how to think, how to askquestions, how to solve problems
, and all of the algorithms inthe world I don't think are
going to be able to have the EQto connect with clients,
understand their actual problems, engage a group of stakeholders
, solve problems and then tellAI and ML what needs to be built
(34:00):
.
So that's my take on it.
There's hey, siri, build mybuilding.
It's not going to be that easy.
Speaker 2 (34:08):
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (34:09):
Now, hey, siri, convert, or hey, chat GPT,
convert the project from 1999specs to 2020 or 2029 standards.
Hey, chat GPT might be able todo that and give you the 90%
solution.
And that will be disruptive toand I won't go on this rabbit
hole because it's a marketingpodcast, not an operations but
(34:32):
the time and material market.
I think we may start to look ata value based market and we are
the lowest paid profession inthe time and material world.
Accounting has figured it out,finance has figured out, legal
has figured out.
For some reason, engineers, theengineering or AEC industry,
(34:55):
from a professional standpoint,is still the lowest paid
profession from a average hourlyrate standpoint.
And I should asterisk that withAEC advisors talked about that
at that conference I was at acouple of weeks ago, so I'm
pulling that statistic from them, not out of nowhere.
Speaker 2 (35:15):
Yeah, no, and it's been like that for a long time.
I know a couple of firms ago,when I was a director of
marketing and I sat on the boardof directors for that firm we
were talking about, because wehad a lot of time and materials
contracts and the salaries wererising but the hourly rates
weren't keeping up and so we hadto constantly keep.
And this was six, seven, eightyears ago and we were already
(35:39):
trying to figure out differentways to do those time and
materials.
That firm was back then.
Speaker 1 (35:46):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (35:47):
I love your take on the Uber for engineers.
I feel like firms are startingto do it in other areas like
marketing.
You said you have a fractionalCMO Yep Marketing.
We've always outsourced, likegraphics or editing or we call
it outsourcing, but it's reallylike kind of this for hire and
accounting.
Does that?
The firm I work for now?
(36:08):
We provide outsourcedaccounting services and so I
think it's just going to spreadto like what you're saying to
the professional and I think inconstruction they have it a
little bit.
I know there's like roamingsuperintendents that will just
pick up jobs or crews likeroofing crews that will just go
like pick up jobs in some of thetrades.
Speaker 1 (36:29):
Yeah, I think that the interesting part there is,
like All marketers willunderstand this.
An owner wants to know that theteam has worked together before
.
That gives somebody safety.
Like, oh, these people have,these two companies have worked
together before, so I'm notgoing to run into problems there
(36:49):
.
This team has worked togetherbefore.
Oh, all of these people on thisproposal have worked on similar
projects together.
So my encouragement to industryprofessionals is get a lot of
reps out there with a lot ofdifferent teams, because you
want to be able to show, when webecome this higher agency, more
(37:10):
autonomy workforce.
You want to be able to showthat you've been able to work in
a bunch of differentenvironments with a bunch of
different project types, with abunch of different owner types,
with a bunch of differentstakeholders, that you are a
flexible professional.
Or accept that you're not aflexible professional and try to
get the full-time job inside onthe owner side.
(37:30):
Or maybe you have two ownersand you're the fractional
facility engineer or the capitalproject executive or whatever.
I think that that is coming.
You heard it here first.
Speaker 2 (37:46):
Breaking news on the AEC Marketing podcast.
Okay Well, we're almost out oftime, but before we finish today
, I have my rapid-fire questions.
Are you ready for them?
Speaker 1 (37:55):
I'm ready, buckle up.
Speaker 2 (37:57):
Okay, Number one what is your number one piece of
advice for marketers who are newto the AEC industry?
Speaker 1 (38:06):
Number one is get on site or get in meetings with
clients, because you cannotunderstand what you're marketing
and selling to owners withoutunderstanding what owners'
problems they're dealing withand what they care about.
You can't get that in an RFP.
You have to have humaninteraction.
Leave the computer and joinsomebody out on site in a
(38:30):
project meeting and get somereps and from clients.
Speaker 2 (38:33):
Yeah, I was very fortunate early in my career.
My office manager that I workedfor I mean I was like this
fresh young thing right out ofcollege and he's taken me along
to meet with these directors andsecretaries of transportation.
I learned so much during thosemeetings.
Speaker 1 (38:51):
The most important part is everybody loves the
young people.
There's an energy and they getto talk to you and they just
feel more open and honest withyou and you don't have to know
anything.
Yeah, they've accepted thatyou're new.
Yeah, you don't have to proveanything to anybody, it's just
to ask questions and be curious.
Love that.
Speaker 2 (39:10):
Question number two what has been your favorite or
most memorable win?
Speaker 1 (39:15):
GSA Region 5, we went after this proposal.
It was a constructionmanagement proposal,
construction managers' agent.
I tried getting on four bigteams.
All of them denied me.
So then I convinced the ownersat the time this is 2013, labor
Day Weekend, 2013, convinced theowners to give me the go ahead
(39:36):
to go at it alone.
They said are you sure?
And shout out to Steve Weber.
He and I wrote the proposalover Labor Day weekend and
October 1st 2013,.
We got a call.
I was on the golf course at agolf outing with our owner and
said you're not going to believethis.
We just won and it was thebiggest fee in the company's
(39:59):
history.
So I was newer to the company.
I felt like I was in a must winscenario, like bring in work or
be gone, and I threw our hat inthe ring for something
competitive and we won.
Speaker 2 (40:11):
Nice, I love winning.
Speaker 1 (40:14):
So do.
Speaker 2 (40:15):
I Especially those ones that you're feeling the
pressure.
Okay, and then question numberthree is what are you excited
about?
Speaker 1 (40:25):
I'm excited about a lot of things.
I'm pretty easily excited.
I've got a young family, so I'mvery excited about them.
But if we're talking in theworks scene, I have a project
going on.
We have a foundation.
It's called the Friendly StrifeFoundation.
It's a nonprofit that has kindof a dual focus.
(40:46):
Mission One is to give back toveterans initiatives that
include housing, ptsd and kindof transition and finding.
The next mission and thenthere's the other side of it is
teaching leadership throughyouth athletics and we're doing
a pilot program right now with ahigh school in the area
developing a curriculum to helpcoaches use their platform to
(41:09):
teach leadership character andresiliency, which is really an
overall mental health andinitiative.
So that is very exciting to me.
Outside of work it gets me andsometimes during work it gets me
excited.
I think we all have anobligation to give back time,
talent and treasure in some way,shape or form, and that is
(41:32):
giving back to two communitiesthat I think raised me to have
the success, coming from bothyouth sports and the veteran
community.
So give back to thosecommunities that gave to you.
Speaker 2 (41:44):
Yeah, I love it.
I love it.
And then my last thing for youtoday if anybody wants to get in
touch with you or learn moreabout you or your firm, where
should they go?
Speaker 1 (41:52):
LinkedIn I am regular .
I won't say I'm consistentenough.
It's one of the things I'mworking on.
But LinkedIn, I'm out there.
Connect with me on website oremail.
I'm not the best, but myassistant is very good at making
sure emails get to me.
Speaker 2 (42:08):
And listen to the podcast inspiring people in
places inspiring people inplaces, and I'll put a link to
the podcast in the show notestoo, for everyone.
Awesome, all right.
Well, this has been just acomplete joy to talk with you
today, so thank you so much foryour time.
Speaker 1 (42:24):
Thank you, lindsay, and thank you to your audience
for everything they're doing forour industry.
Speaker 2 (42:29):
And that, my friend, brings us to the end of another
insightful episode of AECMarketing Strategies.
A huge thank you to BJ Kramerfor joining us today and sharing
such valuable insights.
Bj, your experience andperspectives have really truly
illuminated the intricacies ofmarketing in our industry and
has really given me a lot ofhope and inspiration that there
(42:53):
are leaders like you leadingfirms, and I hope today's
conversation with BJ has givenyou a deeper understanding of
the role of leadership when itcomes to marketing, the
challenges and thetransformations currently
happening or needs to happen inAEC marketing in a glimpse into
the possible future of ourindustry.
(43:13):
Remember, like BJ emphasized,marketing in our field is not
just about promotion.
It's about four proposals.
It's about storytelling,authenticity, building a brand,
knowing your why.
That's what resonates withpeople, and people are who buy
our services, and so I amchallenging you.
(43:33):
I want to see who the first firmis that develops my flipping
streets reality show to becomethe next ship in Joanna Gaines.
Let me know, tag me when thatgoes live.
And then don't forget to checkout BJ's inspiring people and
places podcast and sign up toget his weekly newsletter to
(43:55):
just get more of his insights.
If you enjoyed today's episode.
Please leave me a review andshare it with your colleagues
and your friends in the AECindustry.
Your feedback really helps meto grow and improve the show.
So until next time.
Bye for now.
Hey there, I'm Lindsay Dibbin and I'm
passionate about everythingmarketing, productivity and
career growth.
With over 17 years ofexperience in the architecture,
engineering and constructionindustry, I know firsthand the
ins and outs of this excitingfield, from my early days as a
marketing coordinator tobecoming an award-winning
(00:23):
marketing professional.
In firm principle, I've learnedthe ropes through countless
late nights and challengingdeadlines.
Now I'm thrilled to bring youthe AEC Marketing Strategies
Podcast.
Here I'll be sharing simple yetpowerful, step-by-step
marketing strategies that youcan implement to achieve the
(00:44):
same level of success.
Consider me your go-tomarketing mentor, someone who
truly gets the unique challengesyou face in the AEC industry.
Whether you're an AEC MarketingPro or industry newbie, this
podcast is your personal coffeedate with your marketing bestie.
Together, we'll navigate theever-changing landscape of
(01:06):
online marketing and digitaltrends, ensuring you stay ahead
of the curve.
If you're ready to unlock themarketing secrets they never
taught you in college and tailorthem specifically to the AEC
industry, then you're in theright place.
Now let's get started.
Welcome back, my friend.
(01:27):
I am thrilled to bring you adifferent but refreshing
perspective on today's show.
I'm talking with BJ Kramer,president and CEO of MCFA, a
renowned service disabledveteran-owned small business.
But that's not all.
Bj is also the voice behind theInspiring People and Places
(01:49):
podcast, and he has a weeklynewsletter as well.
His insights into the AEC worldare not just informative but
transformative.
But first I want to give ashout out to Matt Handel from
helpeverybodyeverydaycom, whoconnected BJ and me.
So thanks, matt, forrecommending BJ for the show.
(02:12):
Okay, so BJ is going to sharehow he, as the CEO, integrates
marketing strategies into hisfirm, into his firm's overall
business planning, why AECMarketing has a lot to learn
from personalities like Chip andJoanna Gaines, and why he sees
himself as one of the mostimportant brand advocates for
(02:34):
his firm or brand ambassadorsfor his firm.
We also discuss marketingchallenges, the impact of
digital transformation andemerging trends in both
marketing and our industry as awhole.
Okay, so now let's get to theinterview.
Okay, welcome With me today isBJ Kramer.
He is the president and CEO ofMCFA.
(02:57):
So hi, bj, welcome to the show.
Speaker 1 (03:01):
Lindsay, so great to be here.
Thank you for having me.
Speaker 2 (03:04):
Yes.
So for those who don't know,you tell us a little bit about
yourself, your career path andhow you got here and what you're
doing today.
Speaker 1 (03:13):
Sure, so I'll go back .
I graduated from West Point theUnited States Military Academy,
had a career on active duty asan engineer officer.
I did a combat assignment sosome operational stuff and then
went to grad school, had theopportunity to have a
utilization tour with the ArmyCorps of Engineers and there's a
(03:36):
bit of marketing and advocatingand self-advocating inside of
the Army of how I got theassignment but ended up on a $2
billion military constructionproject as, like the third
person on site, the only uniformon site, and it opened up my
eyes to the big AEC world andreally, from there the rest is
(03:57):
history.
But I joined MCFA in 2012.
When I got off active duty In2018, I had a conversation with
the owner about acquiring themajority ownership of the
company and really laying out awin-win strategy for how to do
that and what my vision was forthe company.
So that happened in 2018.
We became a service disabled,better known as Small Business,
(04:19):
in 2019.
And over the last four years wehave built a leadership team
and we took the company from 17people to 50 people and growing,
and there's a whole bunch ofpunches in the faces and lessons
learned everywhere in between,including marketing, business
development sales.
So I should say I started outas a professional in the
(04:45):
industry, as a project manager,construction manager, but I was
a resident engineer on activeduty.
I got to keep that assignmentas a civilian contractor before
that project ended and then cameto MCFA, interestingly enough,
as director of strategy andbusiness development.
So I came here on a businessdevelopment path which I think
(05:08):
is maybe somewhat unique for theindustry.
Speaker 2 (05:11):
Oh, definitely, definitely.
Speaker 1 (05:13):
And probably we'll put a lot of flavor to this
conversation, so hopefully wecan add some value to your
audience.
Speaker 2 (05:20):
Yeah, no, it's definitely rare to Well, you
kind of came from the owner side.
Speaker 1 (05:26):
I did Yep.
Speaker 2 (05:27):
I'm going to an Army Corps and then come in as on the
business development track andthen work your way up, and now
you're president and CEO.
So I think this is going to bea really fun conversation.
Speaker 1 (05:40):
I'm excited for it.
Speaker 2 (05:42):
So let's get into it.
So, as a president and CEO, how?
And then, coming up to thisbusiness development path, how
do you integrate your marketingstrategies into your overall
business planning and youroverall strategic planning?
Speaker 1 (05:57):
I don't have a real concise answer to this, other
than it's everything.
I think that as a smallbusiness, you have to build a
brand and you build your brandthrough your people.
So you have to be veryintentional about what that
brand is.
Like I said, we started with 17people or when I came here we
were probably 25, 30 people.
We kind of shrunk and then wegrew.
(06:18):
And I say all the time ourpeople are a brand right,
because they're out thererepresenting our firm.
But I'm also a big Simon Sinekstart with YGuy and I watched
that TED Talk a thousand timesprobably.
I read the book and when I thinkabout even how I ended up at
(06:39):
MCFA, they had a website and theslogan on the website was we're
a dedicated team of problemsolvers.
So I've always been somebodythat's been attracted to brand
and I think that's the start ofmarketing strategy is what does
your company represent to themarketplace?
So our brand is about people.
(06:59):
Everything we talk about isabout our people, our culture.
Everything that we're doing atMCFA is about empowering our
people to be brand ambassadorsin whatever way they are,
because your best marketing isgood client service, it's good
account management, it'sdelivering on what you promised.
(07:20):
So the hardest or the cheapestcustomer to keep is the one you
have.
The hardest customer to get isthe one you don't have.
So I think we put a lot ofemphasis on account management
and customer service and howthat plays into who we are as a
company and what we are.
Did I do a good enough jobanswering that?
Speaker 2 (07:44):
Yeah, I like that.
All the marketers listening arelike yes, yes, we're here.
I started with Brian, hestarted with people, so I know
you're getting a lot of like yes.
Speaker 1 (07:54):
And it's counter to our industry.
And I can go, I can bash on ourindustry.
Aec to me stands for archaic,expensive and complicated.
There's not a problem, we can'tover complicate, and some of
that's because of the way we'retaught to think.
I'm an engineer by education.
We tend to think about projectsas managing risks, mitigating
(08:18):
risks, getting it done right,and marketing is more about
pushing the edge and puttingyourself out there.
It's kind of counter-culturalto our industry.
So I joke that I bash on it.
But when I speak to marketers Isay that your job is to push us
forward us being the engineersforward in the industry and in
(08:40):
the world, because we are doinga lot of good work as an
industry.
I was at a conference, an M&Aconference for our industry, and
the punchline was we're solvingworlds or humanity's greatest
problems or greatest threats.
So we're doing all of this goodstuff but we can't seem to
market because we get so focusedon proposals that we forget
(09:04):
that marketing principles apply.
Understanding how people think,how people buy we get so
focused on is the SF 330 writer.
Is my proposal coordinated?
And did I dot eyes and crossT's because the big buyer in our
industry is a publicprocurement officer in some way,
shape or form, so we all rallyaround their process, but at the
(09:24):
end of the day, they're a humantoo, and marketing is about
connecting with human beings andtelling them the story of what
we do, and I think our industryis doing a bad job telling our
story of what we do to anybodyother than the public buyer
that's competing out thecontract that we're chasing.
So I might have gone off trackon you there, but no, I love it.
Speaker 2 (09:49):
You put into words what our frustrations are and
you put it into words soeloquently.
We are.
I always tell people I'veworked with literal rocket
scientists we are solving, likeyou said solving the world's
problems, solving the world'sthreats.
And if we can't tell thosestories, it's just a shame it is
(10:12):
.
And when I work with engineers,they're like, oh, that's just
my job.
And I'm like, well, no, it is,but it's an amazing job and we
need to talk about it.
Speaker 1 (10:20):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (10:20):
I mean, I don't know why we don't have the really
cool commercials like the iPhonecommercials and the brand like
that.
Speaker 1 (10:27):
So I was just on a podcast talking about why don't
we have and I don't volunteer tobe Chip Gaines here, but the
Chip and Joanna Gaines of HGTV,like I get it residential house
flipping is sexy and it's kindof cool and it's something
everybody can connect with.
But the problems and projectswe're executing in our industry
(10:48):
in whatever publicinfrastructure sector to private
development our industry doesreally awesome stuff and we just
don't do a good job of tellingthe story to anybody but
ourselves.
So yeah.
One of the biggest challengesthat I challenge to your
audience is because there's alsoa selfish part of this is it's
(11:09):
also how we attract talent toour industry in the future, and
we have a big aging workforceand while a lot of people are
talking about how AI and machinelearning and all of this is
going to maybe reduce the needfor the human capital we have in
our industry, I'm not quitesure that's going to happen.
(11:30):
So we have to be attractingtalent to our industry as well,
and the way you do that isthrough marketing.
Speaker 2 (11:39):
You make it exciting and sexy.
Exactly yeah.
So when you said Chip andJoanna Gaines, that just means
we think of like we should havea reality show like flipping
streets.
The Chip and Joanna Gaines isrelatable because it's relatable
to the normal person.
Speaker 1 (11:57):
Totally.
Speaker 2 (11:58):
And so if we just talk about, well, how do we time
the traffic lights and how doyou get your road widened, we
should do flipping streets.
Speaker 1 (12:06):
Yeah, how do you get clean water in your house or
electric in your house?
Speaker 2 (12:11):
Yeah, so I was attending a virtual conference
and the keynote speaker wastalking about like A to B
content, social content and notto make it boring and she was
citing I forget what waterdistrict it was.
It was a water district orsewer district in Ohio and they
were just having so much funwith their social media and
(12:34):
talking about poo and toiletclogs and stuff like that.
So it was just she was citingit.
It wasn't even like an AECconference, this was just a
general B to B marketingconference, I think what you
just said.
Speaker 1 (12:47):
Right, there is what we have to change.
We're not a B to B.
We can't think B to B, we haveto think B to C.
Who are the end users?
Who are the humans?
Because when you market towardsa procurement department,
you're like selling your companyto that agency, but really what
we're doing is selling ourcapabilities to individual
(13:08):
buyers who are like they'regoing to be the people we work
with or they're representing thepeople we're going to work with
and, like you, cannot take therelationship or the humanity out
of what we do.
It's a people driven industry.
There's people on the ownerside that are trying to solve
problems, execute projects, doour taxpayer investments better,
and there's people on our sidethat bring a bunch of different
(13:30):
technical expertise to thoseproblem sets.
It's a human interaction game.
We're in the people businessand we got to do a better job of
treating those people asconsumers to support and help,
versus as entities to RFP andpropose and interview with.
Speaker 2 (13:48):
Yeah, and I'm waiting .
Hopefully a listener islistening and maybe they'll
start a reality, because now youcan just do your own reality
show and just put it on YouTube.
I want to see flipping streets.
Speaker 1 (13:59):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (14:03):
Or flipping commercial buildouts or flipping
.
Speaker 1 (14:06):
Yeah, flip this infrastructure, yeah.
Speaker 2 (14:08):
Yeah, so all right.
So we talked a little bit aboutthe challenges that we face
today.
I feel like we've kind of hitthat no-transcript With those
challenges today and thechallenges within our industry.
As you're looking throughmarketing through the lens of a
CEO, how important is the CEOrole in shaping and driving the
(14:34):
marketing vision for a firm?
Speaker 1 (14:37):
I think it's a push-pull.
So I look at the marketingdepartment.
Look, don't get me wrong, youcan't change marketing in our
industry overnight.
So just because I have apodcast and a LinkedIn account
and believe in B2C doesn't meanthat we stop responding to RFPs,
right?
Right, because they propose aworld.
So we have to have the processin place to chase work.
(14:59):
I look at marketing as thegrowth engine of the company and
I look at myself as the chiefbrand officer, the chief brand
ambassador, the chief growthofficer in many ways.
So it's a back and forth pushand pull between them, trying to
help me think outside of thebox, think creatively.
I certainly produce a ton ofcontent and it's me producing it
(15:21):
.
I've tried outsourcing this tocopywriters and people and I
have so much out there that youjust I'm not comfortable handing
my voice over to somebody.
So I go back to the push pullbetween the CEO and marketing
and sales, and I always putmarketing and sales together
because I want people toremember, at the end of the day,
(15:44):
the reason that proposal isgoing in is because we're trying
to sell a client, to bringrevenue in the door.
We're not being rated on theamount of proposals we get out
the door.
We're getting rated on theamount of money we bring in the
door.
So don't separate marketing andsales.
I think that I set the pace.
I am responsible for bringingthe enthusiasm, the desire to
(16:08):
grow.
I don't think anybody can sellanything they don't believe in.
So I have to also bring theconfidence to the table to make
people understand that I am notafraid of growth, I'm not afraid
of pushing the boundaries I'mnot afraid of.
I believe that we have thecapability to solve any problem
(16:28):
a client brings to us.
And when I set that as a visionand when I set that as my
viewpoint, my perspective, I'mtrying to tell people, go out
and tell our story to whoeveryou think needs to hear it.
So in my company I probably set70% of that strategy and then
(16:54):
we have a fractional chiefmarketing officer and a
marketing team behind him thatthey are operationalizing that
vision.
And then they're tasking mewith what parts of it?
And we argue about it becausewe got to tell this story to
everybody.
And my chief marketing officeris like well, it costs money to
get to everybody and we can'twin everybody, so we've got to
(17:15):
be.
And so that tension is goodbecause it does challenge me as
more of a visionary hey, we canchange this entire industry
overnight type of person tosomebody who's more pragmatic
and is like hey, boss, I know wecan change the world overnight,
but we also have to pay thebills and win work, and you're
(17:36):
rating me on the amount ofdollars coming in the door, not
just the amount of people you'retalking to.
So, from my view, I'm 100%responsible for making sure
we're setting the stage toenable our marketing team to do
what they want to do, givingthem the creative flexibility to
go out there and pushboundaries and test things the
(17:59):
budget to test things while alsobeing pragmatic that this has
to result in something Right.
Don't just market formarketing's sake.
Speaker 2 (18:10):
Right.
You're not just doing creativeads to do creative ads, or
creative things to do creativethings.
It has a purpose and thatpurpose is you can potentially
position you to win more work.
Speaker 1 (18:22):
Correct.
The other thing is you can havelong game and short game
strategies.
So me starting a podcast was along game strategy Said I don't
want to hear any of the datauntil after four years.
It's like, hey, freshman yearof high school, I wasn't that
good at anything.
By senior year, big man oncampus.
That's going to go on in anyinitiative we take on.
(18:44):
So why distract ourselves byjudging ourselves for something
we can't really say we're goodat?
Yet I never recorded a podcastbefore.
So hey, we're taking a budgetand we're going to R&D this part
.
I expect no results out of this.
If we get results, great.
If there's some brand halo orsome halo effect to us doing
(19:07):
something different, great.
But I'm not going to make adecision whether to continue or
stop until after four years.
So I think you have to be ableto play some long game there and
to allocate some budget andtime in the marketing department
to do that, while doing the dayto day blocking and tackling.
Speaker 2 (19:26):
Yeah, I love that.
Yeah, because people ask me allthe time I teach a lot of
content marketing and they'relike, well, how fast, if we
start a blog campaign and we'redoing a blog a week or every
other week or a month, when am Igoing to get the client reached
out to me?
And I'm like, well, contentmarketing is a long game.
If you have a three to five toseven year strategic plan, the
(19:47):
people you want at the end ofthat strategic plan that's who
you're blogging for today.
That's the long game, or that'swho you're doing a podcast for
today to try to attract.
So I like your approach of agood mix of long game, short
game strategy.
And I think sometimes marketersget in our own way, because I
(20:09):
think we put pressure onourselves to constantly be
showing ROI because I know I dofor every initiative and some of
it is just really brandawareness and really keeping
your brand out in front of theright people and you can't
really measure that.
Whereas some of it is verytargeted.
(20:29):
You're organizing a campaign.
It's very targeted for thisparticular conference and you
want these many people to cometo your booth, so it's very
specific or number of meetingsset up at the conference because
you're doing thispre-conference campaign.
But I think sometimes we putpressure on ourselves because
we've been told oh, you got toshow our ROI, you got to show
our ROI.
And I tell my students and thepeople that I train I'm like you
(20:53):
don't always have ROI or yourROI might not be quantifiable,
but you can measure it in otherways.
Speaker 1 (21:00):
I call it fuzzy ROI, right, and there are certain
things that can have fuzzy ROI,and if my team is listening,
stop listening.
You have to be able to have aconversation about it and argue
about what the ROI is, and noteverything needs to have a
dollar ROI.
Everything has to have a resultROI Everything.
(21:22):
What is the result we'regetting by doing this activity?
Our podcast result is overthree years, we have 100
podcasts out there, or 120podcasts out there.
That's a result.
Now, is it converting toanything?
Maybe, maybe not.
That's where fuzzy is.
But hey, to your point, brandpresence.
(21:44):
How many other people, how manyother AEC firms, have a CEO
doing 100 plus podcasts outthere on the web being listened
to?
Speaker 2 (21:53):
Yeah, forever.
It's so shelf stable too.
It's not just like a LinkedInpost that it's out of your feed
in two days.
Speaker 1 (22:01):
Right.
So there's, you've gotta beable to have that push and pull,
but you also do need to betalking metrics, right, because
when I spend $5,000 for aconference booth, it's like what
are we getting there?
And I am critical of theconference industry because the
(22:22):
conference industry is inbusiness for the conference host
.
Speaker 2 (22:26):
Yes, there's that it's a money making venture.
It is a for profit conference.
Speaker 1 (22:33):
Totally, and there's a lot of good ones and it's
great like consolidating,catching up with the network.
Before you and I got on, wetalked about how it's hard to
even keep up with the peoplethat we've had on our podcast.
So we have this one hourintimate conversation and it's
like, hey, we're all busy.
Like how do we stay on eachother's radar?
Is it worth staying on eachother's radar?
(22:54):
Like there's nothing wrong withus having a conversation and
wanting to have a genuinerelationship over time, but like
we all have a limited amount oftime to invest in maintaining
relationships staying up.
So the conferences are a goodplace to kind of consolidate
that networking and connectionpoints.
I got off track about ROW.
(23:15):
I will shut up.
Speaker 2 (23:16):
That's okay.
Speaker 1 (23:17):
But my challenge to everybody is it's not always a
financial ROI, but it does needto have a result, because that's
how we can say we went thereand we accomplished what we set
out to accomplish.
When we started the podcast, wedidn't say we're gonna get one
client a year out of thispodcast.
We said we're going to build apodcast.
So now we have a podcast, allright.
(23:39):
As we start to look at data andsay how do we enhance this and
do we want sponsors?
Do we want commercials?
Do we want paid listeners?
We'll explore that as we go.
Speaker 2 (23:51):
Yeah, I love that.
I love it.
So, speaking of the podcast, soyou do a podcast and you said
you do other content.
I think that also includes aweekly newsletter, yep, and your
podcast the name of the podcastwe've been talking about it.
Let me plug it for you.
So the podcast is calledInspiring People and Places.
That's correct, so make sureyou go and subscribe to that,
(24:14):
please, and listen to that.
So you've been doing thepodcast now for three plus years
.
You're writing a weeklynewsletter.
We talked a little bit aboutyour results and stuff like that
, but this is all digital.
I call this the digitaltransformation or, if others
have listened to my podcast,like modern marketing or mod
marketing strategies.
(24:35):
How are you seeing this digitalor mod transformation impacting
other marketing strategies inour industry?
Speaker 1 (24:44):
So let's go back to the conference.
I've got a lot to talk abouthere.
Let me talk about the email.
Ok, so the email started inCOVID.
It started out as an internalemail for me to just like put
enthusiasm out to our team.
Like, hey, the first, there'salways a quote in the email and
(25:05):
the first quote was perpetualoptimism as a force multiplier
by Colin Powell, and I just feltlike it was all doom and gloom
and our team needed to hearsomething positive.
Like, hey, stay engaged, covid,it'll be done in two weeks,
right.
And then I was like, well,actually, this is kind of a way
for me COVID is extending, if weput this out, to a bigger list,
(25:29):
like our clients and maybe someconferences we've attended that
we've taken their emaildistribution list.
This is a way for me to bedoing business development in a
time when I can't have coffeewith people.
So I'm sending this out Fridaynight or Saturday morning and
this is like me having coffeewith them on a Saturday morning.
And that was the intent and itwas all about.
(25:51):
I believe that our business isa relationship business and it's
a B2C concept.
Like, hey, I can't send anemail to every person I'd love
to stay in touch with, and Ican't walk the halls of client
buildings anymore and leave mybusiness card when they're not
there or catch up for fiveminutes when they are there.
I can't do that right now.
(26:12):
So this is a way to scale thatactivity and do it while we're
in this COVID shutdown.
So that led to a lot of good,positive feedback.
And then that annual trainingor that annual planning cycle.
I had always kicked around thisidea of a podcast for our
industry, because I was lookingfor something that I wanted
(26:34):
which was something that waslike talking about different
projects and different people inthe industry, highlighting
success stories and innovationand career paths and all this
stuff that Tim Ferriss talksabout it with every technology
success story that you've everheard of, or Silicon Valley
(26:55):
entrepreneur that everybodyhears about.
We don't hear about that in ourindustry.
What if we did this?
That's kind of how it started,and I guess I'm a believer in
the long game that if we can bea first mover to it, our
industry is behind in it.
Maybe we start setting astandard and maybe by setting a
standard, we're at the table.
(27:16):
So that's did I answer yourquestion?
Speaker 2 (27:21):
Yeah, I think so.
I love that you started it asan internal message or email and
then you're like well,shouldn't I say the same thing
to our clients?
Speaker 1 (27:33):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (27:33):
So I love that approach because a lot of people
wouldn't think to that.
They think they have to talkdifferently to clients than they
do to employees.
And back to your like B2C, likewe were all collectively,
especially at that time, we wereall collectively going through
the same thing.
What better time to have thesame message to everybody and so
I talk a lot about our company,our culture.
Speaker 1 (27:56):
I'm putting out my view of the world and to some
degree that may turn some peopleoff, and great, let's turn them
off before we're their clients,because we're not changing and
like we don't have a cult of mebehind me.
Right, we have a very diverseworkforce, very different views,
but like I think what kind ofpulls us all together is these
(28:17):
core values around which we talkand how we build our culture,
and to me, that is what's goingto either connect us to a client
or drive a client away, andthat's a group like that's back
to people.
By what does Simon Sennig say?
People?
By why you do not what you doso they buy your.
Why not your what?
(28:37):
And if we're constantly talkingabout that, which?
Back to the title of the podcastinspiring people in places.
Our why is to inspire people.
Those people are our clients,our partners and our employees
and places, which are the builtenvironment in which we work.
My job is to build a companythat allows and empowers our
(28:58):
people to have fulfillingcareers and to go serve clients
and execute their projects well,so that our clients are rating
fans of us.
And I have that on our flywheel.
It's all I talk about.
So our why is what we'retalking about all of the time
inside of our marketing?
Speaker 2 (29:16):
Yeah, I love that.
I like that you are verycrystal clear on your why.
I know sometimes previous firmsI worked at or people I talked
to and firms that they work atthere's no real clear why.
It's like we do all the thingsfor all the people, but that's
to what right.
Speaker 1 (29:35):
Yeah, that's the services on the outside.
So if anybody hasn't watchedthe Simon Sinek, watch it.
Speaker 2 (29:43):
I'll make sure I link it up.
I've watched it like agazillion times so, but I love
it.
Go listen again.
Go listen to the podcast.
It's called inspiring peopleand places and be inspired.
So we've talked about whatyou've done.
Let's look at the future andlook out.
There's probably still going tobe.
I mean, we're kind of out ofCOVID, but now there's still
(30:08):
like radical transformationhappening with AI and with.
Maybe there's going to be arecession, maybe there's not.
We've been hearing now for likethree years there's going to be
a recession.
So, looking towards the future,with all this stuff going on,
what runs, what is emerging thatyou are seeing in marketing, in
(30:31):
particular for the AEC industry?
We're just marketing inparticular, that should be in
the AEC industry.
Speaker 1 (30:38):
I go back to.
So there's an interview betweenGary Vaynerchuk and Ryan
Holiday and I want to say it'sDecember of 21 that this came
out and they get into aconversation about agency people
having autonomy and agency intheir careers.
And I think two things.
(30:59):
One, I think the future looks alot more like Uber than it
looks like the AEC industry,meaning people are going to have
ways to be side hustling andbeing entrepreneurial without
feeling the risk of being anentrepreneur.
I believe that to be true andI've used the phrase Uber for
(31:22):
engineers, where you've got thisportal where people can go sign
up for the projects they wantto and kind of work on the stuff
that gets them excited or isgeographically advantageous to
them.
So like, no longer is theindustry controlled by three,
six, 10 mega corporations, butthere's a lot more autonomy and
(31:45):
agency to the employee.
So I am trying to build acompany that accepts that and
empowers it, doesn't shy awayfrom it, and even around the
thought leadership.
It's like I started doingthought leadership or content
marketing or podcasting andemailing because I thought it
was the best way to talk aboutwhat we do and I'm not really
(32:09):
good at talking about me, so Itry to talk about my team and
what they do and the projectsthat they're on and how smart
they are, because that's who ourcompany is.
So I wanted to demonstrate thatto our team and then hopefully,
at some point in time, theplatform is powerful enough that
when I'm hosting our own teammembers on that podcast or one
(32:31):
of our team members is doing aquote lunch and learn as a
podcast, now that message isgetting out to a much wider
audience.
We used to have to go toconferences to speak and maybe
be looked at as an industryexpert.
If I know, I have industryexperts in my company and I can
give them a platform and I'mgiving them the autonomy to go
(32:52):
do some cool work and find theclients.
So that's why I have this B2Cvision of the future of our
industry is, at some point intime, autonomy and agency is
going to go to the professionaland there's going to be some
level of disruption in the quotecorporate side of that.
(33:15):
Then I get into AI and machinelearning and where is that going
to take our industry?
And you've got robotic buildingconstruction going on and all
that.
The other part of my company isthat we're building project
leaders and leadership can't bereplaced by technology.
So they're going to betechnical professionals, they're
going to have technical depthin certain areas and, like I
(33:37):
started, engineering backgroundis a really good place to learn
how to think, how to askquestions, how to solve problems
, and all of the algorithms inthe world I don't think are
going to be able to have the EQto connect with clients,
understand their actual problems, engage a group of stakeholders
, solve problems and then tellAI and ML what needs to be built
(34:00):
.
So that's my take on it.
There's hey, siri, build mybuilding.
It's not going to be that easy.
Speaker 2 (34:08):
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (34:09):
Now, hey, siri, convert, or hey, chat GPT,
convert the project from 1999specs to 2020 or 2029 standards.
Hey, chat GPT might be able todo that and give you the 90%
solution.
And that will be disruptive toand I won't go on this rabbit
hole because it's a marketingpodcast, not an operations but
(34:32):
the time and material market.
I think we may start to look ata value based market and we are
the lowest paid profession inthe time and material world.
Accounting has figured it out,finance has figured out, legal
has figured out.
For some reason, engineers, theengineering or AEC industry,
(34:55):
from a professional standpoint,is still the lowest paid
profession from a average hourlyrate standpoint.
And I should asterisk that withAEC advisors talked about that
at that conference I was at acouple of weeks ago, so I'm
pulling that statistic from them, not out of nowhere.
Speaker 2 (35:15):
Yeah, no, and it's been like that for a long time.
I know a couple of firms ago,when I was a director of
marketing and I sat on the boardof directors for that firm we
were talking about, because wehad a lot of time and materials
contracts and the salaries wererising but the hourly rates
weren't keeping up and so we hadto constantly keep.
And this was six, seven, eightyears ago and we were already
(35:39):
trying to figure out differentways to do those time and
materials.
That firm was back then.
Speaker 1 (35:46):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (35:47):
I love your take on the Uber for engineers.
I feel like firms are startingto do it in other areas like
marketing.
You said you have a fractionalCMO Yep Marketing.
We've always outsourced, likegraphics or editing or we call
it outsourcing, but it's reallylike kind of this for hire and
accounting.
Does that?
The firm I work for now?
(36:08):
We provide outsourcedaccounting services and so I
think it's just going to spreadto like what you're saying to
the professional and I think inconstruction they have it a
little bit.
I know there's like roamingsuperintendents that will just
pick up jobs or crews likeroofing crews that will just go
like pick up jobs in some of thetrades.
Speaker 1 (36:29):
Yeah, I think that the interesting part there is,
like All marketers willunderstand this.
An owner wants to know that theteam has worked together before
.
That gives somebody safety.
Like, oh, these people have,these two companies have worked
together before, so I'm notgoing to run into problems there
(36:49):
.
This team has worked togetherbefore.
Oh, all of these people on thisproposal have worked on similar
projects together.
So my encouragement to industryprofessionals is get a lot of
reps out there with a lot ofdifferent teams, because you
want to be able to show, when webecome this higher agency, more
(37:10):
autonomy workforce.
You want to be able to showthat you've been able to work in
a bunch of differentenvironments with a bunch of
different project types, with abunch of different owner types,
with a bunch of differentstakeholders, that you are a
flexible professional.
Or accept that you're not aflexible professional and try to
get the full-time job inside onthe owner side.
(37:30):
Or maybe you have two ownersand you're the fractional
facility engineer or the capitalproject executive or whatever.
I think that that is coming.
You heard it here first.
Speaker 2 (37:46):
Breaking news on the AEC Marketing podcast.
Okay Well, we're almost out oftime, but before we finish today
, I have my rapid-fire questions.
Are you ready for them?
Speaker 1 (37:55):
I'm ready, buckle up.
Speaker 2 (37:57):
Okay, Number one what is your number one piece of
advice for marketers who are newto the AEC industry?
Speaker 1 (38:06):
Number one is get on site or get in meetings with
clients, because you cannotunderstand what you're marketing
and selling to owners withoutunderstanding what owners'
problems they're dealing withand what they care about.
You can't get that in an RFP.
You have to have humaninteraction.
Leave the computer and joinsomebody out on site in a
(38:30):
project meeting and get somereps and from clients.
Speaker 2 (38:33):
Yeah, I was very fortunate early in my career.
My office manager that I workedfor I mean I was like this
fresh young thing right out ofcollege and he's taken me along
to meet with these directors andsecretaries of transportation.
I learned so much during thosemeetings.
Speaker 1 (38:51):
The most important part is everybody loves the
young people.
There's an energy and they getto talk to you and they just
feel more open and honest withyou and you don't have to know
anything.
Yeah, they've accepted thatyou're new.
Yeah, you don't have to proveanything to anybody, it's just
to ask questions and be curious.
Love that.
Speaker 2 (39:10):
Question number two what has been your favorite or
most memorable win?
Speaker 1 (39:15):
GSA Region 5, we went after this proposal.
It was a constructionmanagement proposal,
construction managers' agent.
I tried getting on four bigteams.
All of them denied me.
So then I convinced the ownersat the time this is 2013, labor
Day Weekend, 2013, convinced theowners to give me the go ahead
(39:36):
to go at it alone.
They said are you sure?
And shout out to Steve Weber.
He and I wrote the proposalover Labor Day weekend and
October 1st 2013,.
We got a call.
I was on the golf course at agolf outing with our owner and
said you're not going to believethis.
We just won and it was thebiggest fee in the company's
(39:59):
history.
So I was newer to the company.
I felt like I was in a must winscenario, like bring in work or
be gone, and I threw our hat inthe ring for something
competitive and we won.
Speaker 2 (40:11):
Nice, I love winning.
Speaker 1 (40:14):
So do.
Speaker 2 (40:15):
I Especially those ones that you're feeling the
pressure.
Okay, and then question numberthree is what are you excited
about?
Speaker 1 (40:25):
I'm excited about a lot of things.
I'm pretty easily excited.
I've got a young family, so I'mvery excited about them.
But if we're talking in theworks scene, I have a project
going on.
We have a foundation.
It's called the Friendly StrifeFoundation.
It's a nonprofit that has kindof a dual focus.
(40:46):
Mission One is to give back toveterans initiatives that
include housing, ptsd and kindof transition and finding.
The next mission and thenthere's the other side of it is
teaching leadership throughyouth athletics and we're doing
a pilot program right now with ahigh school in the area
developing a curriculum to helpcoaches use their platform to
(41:09):
teach leadership character andresiliency, which is really an
overall mental health andinitiative.
So that is very exciting to me.
Outside of work it gets me andsometimes during work it gets me
excited.
I think we all have anobligation to give back time,
talent and treasure in some way,shape or form, and that is
(41:32):
giving back to two communitiesthat I think raised me to have
the success, coming from bothyouth sports and the veteran
community.
So give back to thosecommunities that gave to you.
Speaker 2 (41:44):
Yeah, I love it.
I love it.
And then my last thing for youtoday if anybody wants to get in
touch with you or learn moreabout you or your firm, where
should they go?
Speaker 1 (41:52):
LinkedIn I am regular .
I won't say I'm consistentenough.
It's one of the things I'mworking on.
But LinkedIn, I'm out there.
Connect with me on website oremail.
I'm not the best, but myassistant is very good at making
sure emails get to me.
Speaker 2 (42:08):
And listen to the podcast inspiring people in
places inspiring people inplaces, and I'll put a link to
the podcast in the show notestoo, for everyone.
Awesome, all right.
Well, this has been just acomplete joy to talk with you
today, so thank you so much foryour time.
Speaker 1 (42:24):
Thank you, lindsay, and thank you to your audience
for everything they're doing forour industry.
Speaker 2 (42:29):
And that, my friend, brings us to the end of another
insightful episode of AECMarketing Strategies.
A huge thank you to BJ Kramerfor joining us today and sharing
such valuable insights.
Bj, your experience andperspectives have really truly
illuminated the intricacies ofmarketing in our industry and
has really given me a lot ofhope and inspiration that there
(42:53):
are leaders like you leadingfirms, and I hope today's
conversation with BJ has givenyou a deeper understanding of
the role of leadership when itcomes to marketing, the
challenges and thetransformations currently
happening or needs to happen inAEC marketing in a glimpse into
the possible future of ourindustry.
(43:13):
Remember, like BJ emphasized,marketing in our field is not
just about promotion.
It's about four proposals.
It's about storytelling,authenticity, building a brand,
knowing your why.
That's what resonates withpeople, and people are who buy
our services, and so I amchallenging you.
(43:33):
I want to see who the first firmis that develops my flipping
streets reality show to becomethe next ship in Joanna Gaines.
Let me know, tag me when thatgoes live.
And then don't forget to checkout BJ's inspiring people and
places podcast and sign up toget his weekly newsletter to
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