November 26, 2025 • 53 mins
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Can you imagine going from working with gang-affiliated kids to coaching global CEOs?
That’s the extraordinary path of Dr Alison Schmidt, who’s built a career redefining what leadership really looks like.
In this episode of MarketPulse, Alison opens up about her unconventional journey through retail, hospitality, and education — and how every setback became a lesson in empathy, purpose, and resilience.
She shares powerful moments of honesty, from carrying shame for decades to finding her voice as a neurodivergent leader.
We discuss how COVID forced her to confront her own authenticity, what “being UN” really means, and why true leaders focus less on training and more on DNA — the natural instincts that drive human connection.
If you’ve ever felt out of place in the corporate world, Alison’s story will show you why that might be your greatest strength.
Subscribe now to MarketPulse for more stories that challenge the norm and celebrate the humans behind leadership.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Paul (00:00):
Right.
How do you break the ruleswithout breaking yourself and
build a career where bolddecisions lead to real Dr.
Alison Schmidt is the founderand CEO of Unconvention, a
leadership coaching andorganisational consulting firm
that rejects one size fits allsolutions.
(00:22):
With over 20 years of experienceworking alongside CXOs boards
entrepreneurs and industryleaders, Alison specialises in
uncovering what's reallyblocking the progress, and then
designing high impact strategiesthat break through barriers.
And create lasting momentum.
She's also the creator and hostof UnConversations,
Alison (00:43):
Hm.
Paul (00:44):
podcast where executives and disruptors share raw,
unconventional stories of definethe norms, embracing change, and
redefining their success.
Alison's approach blends candidhonesty with a commitment to
building cultures whereinnovation is lived daily, a PhD
in organisational psychology.
As well as being a boardcertified coach, Alison draws
(01:06):
inspiration from global Travelwith her wife Norma, infusing
her work with diverseperspectives and a di edit and
you wanna get one wrong and adrive for meaningful change.
Alison?
Wow, what a bio.
Welcome to the show.
Alison (01:23):
Thank you Paul.
I'm listening to that now.
I understand how my guests feelwhen I kind of introduce them.
'cause you're sitting here like,wow.
I have done a lot.
Thank you.
That I am just so happy to behere.
Thank you for the very warmwelcome to your show.
Paul (01:39):
More than welcome.
More than welcome.
I'm gonna dive straight in likeI do with, all of our guests
because there's so much to coveramongst all of that, and I
really want to get through asmuch as I can, because I know
your story is going to beabsolutely fascinating for a lot
of our audience.
Let's, rewind back to.
What, was your first paid role?
(02:00):
What was your first salary job?
and what led you there?
Because that's, for me, that'soften where it starts.
Alison (02:07):
you know, I actually worked in retail, so I worked
for Gap.
For a bit of time.
One I loved fashion and gap wasvery fashionable back then.
And, of course I loved workingwith with people.
And I I did have some people ata time that I you know, mentored
(02:27):
in that process, coached in thatprocess.
And I, like I said, it, was kindof an easy an easy job because
it kind of blend the things thatI really enjoyed.
And then I kind of moved into I,I also worked for the Marriott.
At a certain period of time.
(02:49):
So I was in hospitality.
I actually thought I was gonnago down the hospitality road and
then I figured I didn't thinkthat was a good place for me.
I think'cause I wanted to changeso much of what the different
roles and responsibilities thatI was doing, that I was thinking
to myself.
I don't know of hospitality.
I think I'm a better guest thanI am a better employee to work
(03:14):
in that space.
Paul (03:15):
Mm.
Mm-hmm.
Alison (03:17):
and then again, still working with people.
I decided that I wanted to, Iwas in social work for a period
of time, so I was working withgang kids.
And I started to get quite burntout of that.
And I moved then kind of in therole of doing more family family
(03:40):
and adolescent therapy, notnecessarily more, and working
with the gang kids side.
And then when I decided that Ithought I was gonna get my PhD
in.
Clinical psychology.
I have this passion.
I know we'll get into that ofbusiness and people, which is
(04:02):
sort of why organizationalpsychology kind of became a,
really natural fit for me.
Paul (04:09):
Wow.
So, I mean, even just in that,in, in that early intro, we've
gone from, retail andhospitality, which I know a lot
of people that connect betweenthe two and I'm, former retail
and I'm a big believer that who.
Cuts their teeth in a career inretail or hospitality, really
learn so many transferableskills.
Alison (04:31):
totally.
Paul (04:32):
whole, tend to box ourselves into doing more of the
same.
And, a lot of people stay inthat career for life.
But actually I'm a big believerthat if you are looking for
somebody.
A little bit outside the boxthat's well-rounded and, is able
to do a lot of different tasksthat they've not necessarily
been trained on.
Retail and hospitality are thego-to industries for me because
we're so flexible and, talentedin that respect.
Alison (04:57):
I would totally agree with you on that.
I, think, and it's a very highpaced both of those industries
are extremely
Paul (05:05):
and high pressure.
Alison (05:06):
and high paced.
Which I will say a lot of thoseskills that I learned in those
experiences, you know, I youknow, I still use to this day.
And plus I have a hugeadmiration for those individuals
that, do work in thoseindustries without a doubt.
Paul (05:25):
Yeah.
you can't not appreciate peoplein that.
But once you've been there anddone it yourself, right?
Yeah, I hundred percent, ahundred percent.
Get that.
how did you end up working withgang kids and social work
Alison (05:36):
Yeah.
Paul (05:37):
like
Alison (05:37):
That normally, yeah.
Paul (05:38):
of that, where
Alison (05:40):
I think my, parents asked me the same thing because
I certainly did not grow up.
I grew up very middle class but
Paul (05:47):
Hmm.
Alison (05:48):
I loved, you know what it is.
I think for me it was achallenge.
I didn't even though I grew upmiddle class, I did go through
my own struggles.
And my parents were there tohelp me to the best of their
ability.
And I have always found,especially in kids and
adolescents, you know, they're,just looking for someone.
(06:11):
That really gets them and kindof understands them and not
realizing that their pastnecessarily doesn't have to
define their future.
And it just, it, I was justdrawn, I was really drawn to
really helping those kids I wasliving at the time in Los
Angeles.
So, you know, people would bevery surprised to know that I,
(06:32):
was walking the streets inCompton which as a Caucasian
woman were predominantly blackpeople were in that area.
It, was very like.
Whoa, what, are you doing here?
And but I think because of thedifferences, and I think because
of my empathy not, and notnecessarily coming from a place
(06:55):
of feeling sorry for these kids,but more of wanting to
understand them, I think I wasable to do some amazing work
and, really help a, lot of kids,more or less than, not but.
On the flip side of that, Inoticed within myself that I was
(07:17):
becoming quite a hard person.
Meaning you're seeing a lot onthe street.
And seeing what these kids gothrough not only the mental,
physical, sexual abuse thatcould possibly go on the living
conditions that some of thesekids were living.
You, you be, you have to kindof, protect yourself a bit.
(07:41):
And when I went through thatprocess.
You know, it was kind of, Ididn't sort of like what was
sort of happening with me, whichis where I needed to kind of
take a step back and kind ofredefine what sort of additional
focus I, wanted to do as a as acareer moving forward.
Paul (08:00):
I can imagine I can't.
Well, no, I can't imagine.
I can't imagine some of thethings you've heard and stories
you've had told to you.
I mean, we have gang life herein England, but I don't think
it, it very rarely edges ontothe skill that, that I know that
from, friends and connectionsthat I've got in the states
(08:21):
that, you know, certainly in,in, areas like Compton and, many
others that, you must see.
So that's, amazing gift thatyou've been given to be able to
work with people.
And as you see, I think theimportant thing is, not, coming
from a, like these people, like,they don't want people to feel
sorry for them, right?
Like, they just do want to beunderstood.
(08:43):
And I think that's an amazingdifferentiation to be able to
make for, a lot of people.
So you've always had people inthe, in your soul, right?
Like this what fills you up is,is that
Alison (08:55):
For sure, for sure.
Paul (08:57):
people become better than what they are.
What's your earliest memory ofthen challenging the status core
to help ship the path thatyou've taken since then?
Alison (09:08):
You know, you and I spoke about this before and I
think one of the things thatreally resonated with you and I
allowed you, and I reallyappreciate.
Appreciate you allowing me toshare this, but I was diagnosed
with a learning disability.
I've always had it, of course,but this was something that was
fully diagnosed when I was 18years old about to graduate from
(09:30):
high school.
And, you know, during that timeit was difficult because.
You know, I didn't know how toreally explain what was kind of
going on with me.
My parents didn't know reallywhat was going on.
All they wanted to know was,what do I need to do to get my
child to graduate and we cansend her to a good school.
(09:51):
But that process during that wasvery transactional.
Not really back then.
There wasn't people that youcould really talk to that you
could really kind of have.
Empathy and support.
It was more of, okay, let'sfigure out what's going on.
Let's figure out what box we'regonna put her in so we know how
to treat this and, move on.
(10:14):
And so for me, again, that wasthe best that, you know, the
environment you're talkingabout, the eighties and the type
of tests that were out there,that was really the best they
could do.
However though for me, I felt itwas a stigma and I had this
piece of paper that they gave tome when I was, diagnosed and I
(10:36):
carried this piece of paperaround with me up until I
graduated from my PhD.
So this is something from 1989,I'm just about to date myself.
And I carried this piece ofpaper'cause it was the only way
that I could get specialaccommodation.
For testing and other thingsthat I would need, and it wasn't
(10:59):
a lot, but the, accommodationsthat I need back then seem like
they were life changing.
Today.
They're probably like, yeah, youneed some extra time.
No worries.
It's all good.
Paul (11:10):
Yep.
Alison (11:10):
But for some reason back then it was, that is not fair to
the masses.
You may need that.
Instead of going, yes, you havesomething, this is gonna help
you.
Achieve and be great like yourother counterparts, but instead
it was looked at.
(11:31):
We don't wanna show favoritism.
And so that's why I had to carrythis piece of paper.
And I think for me I think itmade me stronger.
I think it has made me, a greatbusinesswoman.
And I think it also has made mevery good at what I'm able to do
(11:51):
in my coaching and consultingpractice that I've had 30 years.
And, being able to not only helpmy clients with transactional
things they may need, but alsofor me, it's really that human
side.
(12:12):
And I think going through what Iwent through early on has made
me even more of an empatheticand understanding person that I
am today.
Paul (12:23):
Yeah.
it's, interesting, like you'vementioned like the, unspecified
learning disability, which, Ifind in equal parts interesting
and frustrating, and I almostfeel a frustration on your
behalf because how can we knowthat there is something I need
support with, but not be able toput a name to what that is,
Alison (12:44):
Right.
Paul (12:44):
almost a contradiction in itself.
Right.
Alison (12:47):
Well, they had a name for it, but it wasn't a very
good name that they, it was avery derogatory name that they
would probably use,
Paul (12:56):
mm-hmm.
Alison (12:58):
that would be completely unacceptable now and what that
could do to someone.
Paul (13:03):
a lot of
Alison (13:03):
Yeah.
Paul (13:04):
eighties, right?
Alison (13:05):
For.
Paul (13:06):
Yeah.
Yeah, it's, but it, rings, itreminds me of the conversation I
had with, so the charity partnerfor Our show, which is ADHD,
Liberty, and the lady who runsthat, Sarah Templeton, met
because.
I'd listened to the audio bookthat she'd released, which is
titled How Not To Murder YourADHD Kids.
(13:28):
And, she's the most Britishperson for an audio book, right?
So she's very, kind of almostsounds like a posh accent when
she speaks,
Alison (13:37):
Sure.
Paul (13:37):
very down to earth with it.
so.
it's, I can't really describeit, but go, away and have a
listen to it if you've got time,because it's, just a phenomenal
listen.
And I identified so much ofmyself in that book when I was,
trying to find out about my son,and I contacted her and said,
I'd love to have you on theshow, love to have you on the
show.
And she said, yes.
(13:57):
But during that show, her storywas that she'd been a prison
counselor for a decade, and atthe age of 52, she was
diagnosed, ADHD
Alison (14:07):
Mm-hmm.
Paul (14:07):
And what she realised was the reason why she'd been able
to connect with all of theprisoners that she'd worked with
so well was because she trulyunderstood the way their brain
worked.
And what she now does is, a lotof important work on how to
break the school to prisonpipeline for undiagnosed or
unmedicated ADHD people.
(14:29):
Which to me sounds, it's got alot in common with the story
that you've just shared therewith, you know, being able to
reach gang kids and, workingunafraid in that environment
because you know that up here,you've, connected with them,
you've see them, you understandthem.
Not that.
You, you un you've experiencedwhat they've experienced because
(14:51):
that's not true.
But you've, learned tounderstand what motivates them,
why they do the things they do,and you can speak to them on
their level where you kind ofshared that energy together.
I do wonder, did you think thatkind of level of empathy and
understanding is something thatthen helped you stand out in
your field and, kind of motivateyou towards getting that PhD
(15:12):
then?
Alison (15:12):
For, without a doubt.
Without a doubt.
Paul.
I, you know, I think the otherthing as I was going through my
PhD program, and I think, youknow, it's interesting because I
actually have two master'sdegrees and a PhD and so one of
my master's degree is ineducation.
Clinical education.
(15:33):
Then as I was getting my PhD inorganisational psychology, you
get a master's, you go throughthat process and then
Paul (15:40):
Yeah.
Alison (15:40):
and so what, what was kind of an oxymoron about all
this is because I, feel like I'ma better speaker, and writing is
probably one of the hardestthings for me.
And reading is also one of thehardest things for me because
for me, when I read something.
I have to read word for word andthen go back and put it
(16:02):
together, and then the sentencethen makes sense to me.
That is usually why multiplechoice questions are like, you
know, usually my demise, butbecause of, I never.
Took no for an answer.
I think I was receiving a lot ofmessages that I can't do
something and I think back thenthat was more of the message
(16:24):
that you couldn't do something.
Then the message I think that itis today of you can, this, these
aren't things that need to stopyou.
And so for me that's really, Iwas my mentor really in that.
And I didn't realise much ofthat until I went through my own
(16:45):
executive coaching and my owntherapy that I've done that I
needed to give myself that,credit to be able to go, no, no
matter what was getting in yourway, you still knew that you
could achieve it.
You knew it was gonna be hard ashell and you know, it was gonna
be a tough road.
(17:05):
And there were times I was.
Just crying out of purefrustration.
But at the end of the day, Iknew there was no other way but
to complete it.
And I also think that comes toofrom my, which is why on my
podcast will that I hope we getto too, is I interview elite
(17:26):
coaches and athletes because I,myself was a competitive swimmer
and I also ran, and so I thinksports was really.
A lifeline for me because thatgave me a healthy way to deal
with my frustrations or dealwith insecurities or deal with
(17:48):
if I was feeling anxiety orfeeling depressed.
I, knew that if there was thatoutlet for me through sports I
think also has helped me get tothe individual that I am today.
Paul (18:04):
Yeah, I think people that I've spoke to, I think there's,
(18:44):
something, something specialabout swimming.
That it's kind of, it's almostsensory stimulation for a lot of
people.
And, it's, it makes it very easyto, focus in the moment.
Alison (18:56):
Yes,
Paul (18:56):
Whereas a lot of other sports can be quite loud and
intimidating and, team sports,you've gotta work together.
You've gotta listen to whatpeople are saying.
Whereas swimming, a lot of thetime is it's solo sport
Alison (19:06):
yes.
and
Paul (19:07):
you're in the water.
And I've heard a lot of peoplesay, I just find peace.
Alison (19:10):
Yes,
Paul (19:11):
I find peace in that moment when I'm underwater and,
nothing else matters beautiful,
Alison (19:17):
it's, true.
It's you and the current of thewater and how fast you're gonna,
how fast you're gonna go.
Paul (19:22):
amazing.
you're 100%
Alison (19:24):
about that.
Yeah, it is.
It's, a very kind of peaceful,but you know, and it's,
breathing is a very big part ofswimming and knowing when to
breathe
Paul (19:35):
Yep.
Alison (19:36):
and knowing when to breathe can either make or break
that particular race.
And I, have learned that andtaken that valuable lesson
throughout my career becausewhen I am feeling something
overstimulating or has me notfeeling balanced.
(19:58):
I think about that moment ofbeing in the water and getting
my breath in check, and thathelps me tremendously.
Paul (20:09):
So if we then, if, we kind of go back to the your work
timeline, I guess what was thepoint where you realised you
didn't fit into the traditionalcorporate mold?
Was there a, turning point foryou?
Where, kind of a switch flicked
Alison (20:25):
Yeah,
Paul (20:25):
what, was it?
Alison (20:26):
I, think I have always felt that I'm from, I think I
kind of made a joke on anotherpodcast, I think it was even
when I came outta my mom's womb,that, I've always felt that way.
I, and I sort of almost feltlike an outcast in, that way.
Because I am such an inquisitiveperson and, I don't ask why.
(20:52):
Meaning?
Why?
Because I just wanna say why, orI think something needs to
change because internally, I,feel I'm right about something.
I, think.
One of my we'll use the termthat people say, I guess
superpower is I'm able to reallylook at a situation very
(21:14):
differently than sometimes otherpeople and in such a deeper way.
And I, try to cover that up abit because I.
You know, people were notresponding, weren't responding
well to that because they wantedme to conform and just say yes
or agree with either it was myboss or the coworker or whatever
(21:39):
the case may be.
And, even in my family, I, havealways been just an inquisitive
person and I like to understandhow things work.
I like to understand how peoplethink and.
I, tried very hard to lessenthat until I started my own
(22:01):
business.
And when I started my ownbusiness and started, and this
was my first one, it was calledALS group.
And I think at that time when Igave myself the freedom to not
conform and to not do whateveryone else is doing.
I was getting a lot morepositive reinforcement than
(22:24):
actually negative reinforcement.
If, that makes sense.
Paul (22:28):
Yeah.
No.
It does.
it does.
And I think that resonates for alot of us who've gone off and
built our own business.
Certainly, my experience as aNeurodiverse crew.
That I speak to, you know, Ifind that, you know, I, remember
conversations when, I was,conversations when I was at
work, and you exactly whatyou've said resonates really so
much because I remember aspecific conversation with my
(22:52):
area manager when I was running,when I was running retail
stores, and frustration with meboiled over one morning, about 3
o'clock in the morning.
We'd, done a stock take thenight before and we were still
all there.
it was me and like 4 of my, 4 ofmy colleagues who were also
managers and, he was dishing outjobs and he just, he asked me to
do something and I just went,why why, are we doing that?
(23:16):
Right?
And he was like, Paul, itdoesn't matter why you just, why
can't you just tow the companyline for once?
You know, your life would bemuch easier if you just did what
you were asked.
And I was like.
Well, it might be, but that'snot the way I'm wired.
Alison (23:29):
Yeah, I
Paul (23:30):
need to know why, because what you've told me to do
doesn't seem to make sense.
If you can explain, there'ssomething that I don't
understand, then, I can getbehind that and you'll not find
anybody who will be morepassionate about doing what
you've asked
Alison (23:43):
exactly.
Yeah.
Paul (23:44):
But if you expect me to do something.
That, that potentially is, itdoesn't have a positive benefit
to anybody that I can see or,positive impact in any way,
shape or form.
You just want me to change aprocess for the sake of changing
it.
You will not find anybody willdrag their heels more than I
will.
Alison (24:02):
Right.
Paul (24:02):
And you can discipline me, you can put me on the naughty
step.
You can do what you like, but Iwill not do it out of principle.
Alison (24:09):
Yeah.
Paul (24:09):
And we, never quite, you know, was no, I didn't realise I
was ADHD at the time.
There was no conversation aboutthat corporate world.
We didn't discuss neurodiversityin
Alison (24:18):
Oh, no.
No, not at all.
Paul (24:20):
but what you've said, just,
Alison (24:22):
Yeah.
Paul (24:22):
like it's, it's, funny.
I know, I bet there, there areso many people out there who are
kind of stuck in that same rutand don't even realise why they
find those things frustrating.
So for me that's, it's, quiteliberating.
what happened with ALS then?
So you mentioned that was yourfirst buisness
Alison (24:37):
Yeah.
Yeah.
So, I had ALS group and that Ihad that business for over 20
years.
And then COVID hit.
And
Paul (24:49):
Right.
Alison (24:49):
everything just it was a horrible time.
It was a very stressful time forme.
I was traveling quite often.
Everything just completelystopped with the whole world.
I had contracts, that peoplewere like, we don't know what's
happening, what's going on?
And so I.
(25:11):
You know, I was talking to my,wife and I was like, okay, so I
don't know how long this isgonna go.
And then I'm sitting here like,how do I do what I do and do as
well as I can do it with myclients over this kind of
outlet?
We've had, you know, we've hadWebEx around for a while.
(25:31):
We had Zoom.
These were meetings, these were,but how do I really connect with
someone so strongly?
How do you get accountabilityfrom your clients over this
screen?
So that was one of my initialthoughts.
And then the other initialthought that came to my mind
was, wow, I had this moment toreally sit here, stop and
(25:55):
reflect.
Like, when do we really get to,to do that?
And so I'm an avid cyclist.
I, don't run much anymore.
And so I went out for a longbike ride next day, got up, went
out for a long bike ride, and Ihad a discussion with myself and
it was like, if you could dosomething, time wasn't an issue,
(26:22):
would you?
Keep doing the kind ofconsulting work that you're
doing and the coaching work thatyou're doing.
And I answered myself honestly,that I felt that there were some
missing pieces to my offerings,to what I enjoy doing with
people where I like to help.
Corporations and I went throughmy process and I decided that
(26:49):
ALS group was no longer the,name, yes, it's me but it was no
longer serving itself in thecontext that I first started
this company.
And I, my company is calledUnconvention, as you mentioned,
because that Is embracing me asbeing an unconventional CEO and
(27:13):
leader and, embracing all thewonderful things about me
personally and professionallythat make up this unconventional
individual and the type ofofferings and the work and the
type of clients I wanna workwith.
And you also mentioned I'm the,creator and host of
(27:34):
UnConversations.
It's, and I, mean, I had peopletalk to me about doing that and
I was like, okay, so I'm gonnanow do something where it's not
very competitive in the podcastmarket.
Like, what am I gonna do?
Like, okay, let me see how I canplay in this space.
(27:54):
And as you said, we, interviewunconventionally excellent
global CXOs, entrepreneurs andfounders, and my goal is to
globally begin to bring thehuman side back to business and
where we can understand thehuman side of these leaders and
(28:17):
what truly, besides theirtactical work that they do.
And they're amazing, their owncompanies or the companies that
they're employed with, butthere's also this amazing person
and amazing stories that need tobe shared and talked about that
got them to where they aretoday.
And I, like you and I were justtalking before, it is just one
(28:40):
of my greatest, greatesthighlights is being, and, I
think I'm more.
I feel more honored to have myguests come on.
They, tell me they're honoredand I appreciate that, but I,
feel the honor just because ofthe level and the vulnerability
that my guests are willing to goto it.
It's, really a, special podcast.
Paul (29:02):
I love that.
I have to ask as one podcasthost to another, Alison,
Alison (29:06):
Yes.
Paul (29:06):
how do you come across unconventional Leaders in order
to invite them on the podcast?
Because let's be honest, thereis no LinkedIn filter for
conventional versusunconventional.
Alison (29:16):
Correct.
Paul (29:17):
what, how, do you find them?
Alison (29:19):
Well, you know, it, I started out doing a couple of
what I like to call cold call onLinkedIn.
I either loved the person'sbrand, I loved what they talked
about.
I loved the products.
It was all the above.
And I have to tell you now, it'smore people who have been on the
(29:41):
show after they've gone throughthe process that they're like,
this is.
This is really cool.
And part of what makes mypodcast very uniquely different
is I have my guests go throughwhat I coined the UN word
effect.
And I have each of my gueststhink of 3 words that begin with
(30:02):
un And here in the, States theUN sometimes in the English
language here in the US can havea very negative connotation a
meaning to it.
And so I have my guests thinkabout what that process was like
(30:22):
for them.
When I asked them to think aboutthese UN words.
I had them come up with those unwords and talk about them
individually, and it's beenamazing because you get this
really unique.
Understanding, in depth,understanding of who this
individual is by just how theycame up with these UN words,
(30:44):
through the process and theindividual words themselves.
And even sometimes I'm evenshocked.
I'm like, wow, that is such agreat word for that person.
And then they'll even go into itfurther and I'm like, oh my God,
I had no idea that word had somuch meaning.
To them and, some of the youngwords could, be, have a negative
(31:09):
and the guests will speak of itin a way where this really
contributed to the early partof, their life, but how they
actually overcame it to a muchmore positive experience.
But even if the word wasnegative for them, it is still a
learning process that they wentthrough and it's amazing what
(31:31):
they.
Shared through that process towhere that word now no longer
identifies or holds a negativemeaning to them, if that makes
sense?
Paul (31:42):
How did you come up with the idea?
what, inspired you to ask themthat in the first place?
Alison (31:48):
Yeah, it's a great question.
What inspired me really was whenpeople would ask me about.
We use these words, like, I'd belike, oh, I'm out.
You know, I'm Dr.
Alison Schmidt and you know, I'mCEO of X company and, it's the
same sort of thing.
And I was like, well, that's notreally intriguing.
(32:11):
I mean, those are just liketactical things about me, but.
Doesn't really tell peoplereally who I am and what I'm
about.
And I, spoke to a colleague ofmine when I was trying to come
up with the name of my companyunconvention and she's from
Paris and she said, I don'tknow, there's something around
(32:32):
this un and, I think it could bean amazing branding for your
company.
And I was like, I don't evenknow what that means.
Okay.
And so I started doing my own.
Paul (32:43):
that in a French accent as you
Alison (32:44):
Oh, it was ama.
Oh yeah.
It's, I will tell you, itsounded way sexier when she said
it in an accent than, having itwith a US or a, you know, a, New
York slash Texas accent.
I was like, so say that to meagain, why I should do this.
No, it, it sounded great.
(33:05):
I really should just have her domore of my podcast intros for
me.
But yeah, I, brought myselfthrough my own onward effect.
I didn't know what it was gonnabe called, and in fact, I didn't
come up with that onward effectuntil April of this year.
Then I started trying it outwith certain guests and seeing
how it was gonna flow.
But the concept behind it isactually what I went through
(33:29):
myself, and I did identify myown un words At the time, my un
words were unconventional, ofcourse unapologetic and
undeterred were my 3 And it justhelped.
It just kind of helped me how Italked to people about myself
(33:54):
because I've just, so, I've justbeen so used to talking like.
This, and I'm like, God, I'mbored of myself.
Like there's more to me thanjust these degrees and my title.
And, I, wanted to find a way tohelp get to the core and who I
am today, and that's sort of howthat process all began.
Paul (34:17):
That's a, that's a brilliant story.
I love that.
I'm so pleased I asked that.
so then I guess your, so yourfocus is around unconventional
leadership, which makes me wantto ask the question.
What's the most unconventionalleadership decision you've made
that you are the most proud of?
I think not, the mostunconventional decision, but
(34:37):
Which one are you most proud of?
What did that teach you?
Alison (34:40):
You know, I, will tell you, I, my earlier career, I did
things very unconvention.
I did things conventionally,excuse me.
I did things veryconventionally.
I did things the way, textbookwise, we should do very kind of
systemically.
(35:00):
And I didn't realise howunfulfilling that really was for
me.
And I, do feel confidently thatI was serving.
My clients, of course, to thebest of my ability.
But I, would have to say COVIDfor me was such a blessing
(35:21):
because it, to me, my, my familywas safe, thankfully.
And, I got to go, yeah.
I wanna start having fun withreally good fun with what I'm
doing and.
I think allowing myself finallyat 50 to not do the things that
(35:42):
people would expect me to do.
And so this is probably the mostfun I've had, not only doing
this podcast, which scared me todeath, you know, I don't know
when you first started, but it,did me, not that I don't like
talking to people, but I'm veryhard on myself.
'cause I wanna produce a reallygreat.
(36:03):
Product and I wanna do reallywell by the guests that is
sharing the space with me duringtheir, episode.
So for me, I, think the mostunconventional thing for me that
I could have done was givingmyself the permission to be
unconventional.
And no matter what anyone'sgonna say, think do, it, didn't
(36:27):
matter.
I, gave myself that, that, thatfreedom.
And I, I know with the responsethat I've been getting from
people, the level of connectionsthat I've been able to get you
know, I, it's just been superfun.
It's just been a lot of fun and,I think I, that's how I knew it
was time to make that change.
Paul (36:48):
I think there's so many people that, that could learn a
lesson from that Alison, becauseit's, it kind of, it's very much
in line with a lot of the thingsthat I've, preached for so long.
You know, I, mean, I, leftcorporate world in 2020 just as
COVID was hitting and I'd alwaysworked in person and I was, at
that time I was working inretail.
As COVID kicked off
Alison (37:08):
Mm-hmm.
Paul (37:08):
It was an awful experience to,
Alison (37:10):
Oh,
Paul (37:10):
having to
Alison (37:11):
horrible.
Paul (37:11):
to work during that when so many people were, you know,
oh, we're working from home nowand we get a laptop and I can
protect my family, and, I'm theguy that's, you know, still
going out there and, puttingmyself on the line.
But the more I've come awayfrom.
That corporate world and I guessunincorporated myself.
(37:31):
So if I want to use an un word,there's, one for me like that.
That's sort tough for people todo is to switch from getting
permission to speak my mind orto say something that might
contradict our policies andprocedures, just being able to
express myself.
You know, I remember my veryfirst guest podcast.
(37:52):
I, was podcasted, I was asked tobe a guest on a retail loss
prevention podcast'cause that'smy background.
I did a lot of, work in lossprevention and fraud, still
remember getting on that audioonly podcast.
And being absolutely terrifiedwhen they hit the record button
and asked me to introducemyself, because what was going
(38:14):
through my head was, know, youare just a store manager.
you've just worked in retail for15 years, but you're, not a
senior leader.
you've never run your ownbusiness.
You've never done all of thesethings.
Why would anybody want to listento you?
And it's, there was this, voicewas so real and I found myself
like I'm quite a confidenttalker on, those sorts of
(38:35):
things.
But I just found myselfhyperventilating.
And for the first 10 minutes,I've listened to that podcast
since the first 10 minutes areawful because.
i'm just like, yeah, I can, I,remember my brain just reeling,
like, what do I say?
What do I say?
How do I make sure I don't sayanything that's gonna get me in
trouble?
What if somebody who, I used towork with is listening to this
and what would they think of me?
Alison (38:55):
Yeah, and i'm
Paul (38:55):
trying to introduce myself at the same time, and I'm still
figuring on my own story and howto introduce myself.
You're right, it's, absolutelypetrifying But at the same time,
it's so liberating once you getused to it because.
You become your own voice ofreason.
I think to your point
Alison (39:12):
yeah, I.
that
Paul (39:13):
passion is, paramount.
Alison (39:14):
Yeah, I absolutely agree.
You know, it's interestingbecause when, you know, being in
this space of, coaching andconsulting, which I've done for
a very long time, but when Idecided to do the podcast, I
remember you know, hey, youshould reach out to your friends
and, Family and ask them for,you know, referrals on who,
(39:34):
whatever.
And I, I remember clearly, I,asked one my really very close
friend and the first wordsweren't like, man, that sounds
freaking cool.
I love what you're gonna do.
That's like, really awesome.
It was like, so what do youthink is gonna be in it for your
guests?
(39:55):
And I was like.
And, my head just was just like,what?
Like what?
What do you, what do you mean?
Like, I just told you like, thisis like great.
I mean, you know, like, what doyou mean how's this sound?
And it was like, but thedifference at that point for
that person was what is it infor them money-wise?
(40:20):
Meaning how could anyone dosomething without there
necessarily being a monetaryconnection to it?
And, I, will say I have had morepeople I think I only had.
One person that said that, Hey,you know, they don't do anything
(40:40):
without being paid.
And you know, their friends haveasked them to and they need to
be paid.
And I'm like, oh, okay.
I get it all good.
And then I had one other personthat kind of had a similar
thing, but I will tell you therest of them, I have just been
like, I have been so lookingforward to this because.
You said it perfectly, and Ithink your podcast does a
(41:03):
beautiful job in this too.
We're looking for platformswhere we can express ourselves.
The business is, gonna be there.
we will get to that, and that'scrucially important.
But I think also being able toexpress ourselves, tell people
who we are, I think is also justas important because that
(41:25):
person's like, ah, man, I heardyou on this podcast.
You had the vibe.
I like, I love the way you talk.
I, Just get this really greatconnection and I wanna do
coaching with you.
Like, I, get it.
I mean, you are probably gonnakick my ass and I want you, and
that's why I think blending bothof these components and, I think
(41:50):
corporations also, I was readingin some of your questions and,
one of them really stood out tome.
They, they all did, by the way.
But.
We have to allow in corporationsfor employees to be able to
express themselves.
And, I think that's going toreally help with, and not just
(42:11):
when we meet with an employee,we're talking about tactical
things, performance things.
Has this been completed?
When's it gonna be completed?
But really understand because.
We are in a a very interestingtime here in the States and with
our administration what ishappening and we're also dealing
(42:34):
with the pressures of what'shappening with corporations
here.
There are layoffs.
There's probably gonna be manymore layoffs, which is probably
gonna be happening right beforethe holidays.
That's usually the time thatkind of happens and.
You know, I, think leaders needto spend more time being
empathetic and understanding aslong and, what their employees
(42:59):
are going through, as well astheir roles and responsibilities
that are needing to be met inthe organisation And I, really
speak about that clearly there.
Yes, you can be a great leader,but I think one of the greatest.
Skillset as a leader is to beempathetic and understanding as
well as the tactical things thatyou need to make sure that your
(43:23):
team obviously is responsiblefor.
Paul (43:26):
I think it's a root, super rare skill set though, right?
Alison (43:28):
Yeah.
Paul (43:31):
not, many leaders, even the ones that are capable of
both feel the pressure to not beboth because.
The problem for a lot ofcompanies always comes from
above, right?
Comes down from the top leveland comes down from investors
and, shareholders whoever, andthey want to see results.
Alison (43:49):
Yeah.
Paul (43:49):
And results mean things need to be measured.
And empathy can't be measuredreally.
Alison (43:55):
Yeah, it can
Paul (43:55):
but kind of not in the same way that investors and
shareholders care about, right?
Alison (43:59):
of course.
Paul (43:59):
Nobody's ever gonna stand up and say, well, you know what?
Empathy levels were up 30% thisyear, and that's in line with
our revenue increase in, sowe're all gonna be more
empathetic.
That would be a great time,right?
Like everybody would love to beable to do that, I think that's
what drives a lot of thechallenges that we see in
leadership certainly in Westernculture, right?
(44:19):
Like, I, think that's, a massiveproblem that we need to address
and get to grip of, because.
Otherwise, we're just gonna bestuck in this constant loop of
corporate life.
Best people freeing themselvesand becoming entrepreneurs and
founding their own businessesand moving on with life, but
who's left running the corporateworld?
(44:40):
'cause we need people in thatcorporate life.
Alison (44:41):
Of course, it's
Paul (44:42):
not like we can just all extract ourselves and, be happy.
We
Alison (44:46):
of course.
Of course.
need
Paul (44:47):
people in the coporate So, I, you know,hats off to anybody
that can go into thatenvironment and help make a
difference because I think it's,certainly needed.
It's, you know.
I can't imagine how brave theleaders have to be in the first
place to even request the help.
Right.
to get coaching in
Alison (45:07):
Yeah,
Paul (45:07):
we,'cause you need to acknowledge your problem first.
Right.
Alison (45:10):
definitely, definitely.
Paul (45:12):
I wonder what's in your experience then, Alison, you
know, obviously you've workedwith lots of leaders, you've
worked with lots of industrysectors.
What's.
What's working in leadership andbusiness right now that leaders
should pay more attention to?
Aside from kind of empathy and,understanding what's, something
that you think everybody'smissing?
Alison (45:29):
You know, again, you know, I think really what
they're missing is, think.
proper training of their, andproper coaching of their, and,
also asking your employees whatthey really wanna do and where
they wanna go.
I find that your leaders aren'tspending the time asking their
(45:54):
team what they really enjoydoing.
I think they just go, oh, we'llmove so and so into this role.
And, that'll be, really great.
And then that, and that persondoesn't necessarily wanna say no
because they're at risk thattheir job is probably, you know,
well then we'll find someoneelse who wants to do it and
you'll be let go.
Paul (46:14):
Yep.
Alison (46:14):
And so I, think what leaders need to do is, I mean, a
lot of these things are very.
Cyclical.
We're, doing the same things andwe're getting the same results.
Like, to me, it's amazing thatwe're talking about retention.
Like retention.
To me, I is just like, I, can'tbelieve we're still talking
(46:37):
about it because there's reallyclear, there's studies, there's
clear things that corporationscan, honestly do that are not
very expensive.
Because what's expensive isturnover.
We do not wanna look at thatnumber because that number, we
just don't wanna see it.
(46:57):
And I will tell you, I, I havebeen preaching this too since I
was in graduate school that Ican't believe we're in this,
same place.
But I also think we also need tospend the time.
Really get the people that wewant to move into these
leadership roles.
Not just trained because we havea, set training company and as
(47:23):
long as they go in and check thebox on all their trainings that
great, we, they, checked thebox, they achieved everything
they needed to.
You are now a leader and go leadthat, that is, doesn't make an
effective leader that, that haseducated them.
With some tools to consider, buta good leader is also internal.
(47:45):
'cause I have some skill sets asa leader that you're not gonna
find in a textbook.
it's in my DNA and through myown experience on top of the
things that I.
You know, have learned throughmany years of, schooling and
being on, the job.
And I, so I think if we spendtime asking people what type of
(48:09):
work do they really enjoy doing,and let those people do that and
also have proper successionplanning because if people know
that if they work hard and,showing the results, that
there's a next step for them.
They're gonna be even morecommitted to wanting to even
(48:30):
work harder for the company thatthey're working for.
But I find with leadership, we,tend to alienate employees.
We don't wanna talk to them.
Then they finally get reallyupset and then they're like,
that's it.
I wanna, I'm gonna leave.
And statistically speaking, 9times outta 10.
(48:54):
It still shows up as the numberone reason that employees will
leave a company because of theirmanagers.
It is not necessarily because ofthe money aspect, it's because
of, there could be a combinationof that, of course, but usually
it's because of the managers ofwhy or their direct reports of
why they're leaving.
Paul (49:13):
I think we need to see a culture change where.
We take ownership of the leadersfor tomorrow.
And I think that's it's veryshortsighted leadership approach
that we see that drives a lot ofthese problems.
It's somebody else's problemtomorrow, as long as I've done
my job.
Alison (49:27):
Correct.
Sure.
Paul (49:29):
you know, but we can all make that positive difference in
our own way I've.
Alison, I could probably, wecould probably do this for like
3 or 4 hours and I'd, still behere asking you questions, so
like, I, do need to, I need todraw the episode to a close, but
I, would love to have you comeback at some point.
But before I do that, I've gotan unconventional question for
you, which I've never asked anyguest before, but i'm inspired
(49:52):
by the, conversation that we'vehad
Alison (49:54):
oh, I'm honored.
Paul (49:55):
as a child.
What was your favorite boardgame and why?
Alison (49:58):
I loved, oh.
What's that game?
Twister.
I love Twister.
Twister was really great.
Are you familiar with Twister?
You.
Yeah.
So I love Twister.
It was like, so I can, I countthat as a board game because I
mean, you get in all these likecrazy.
Paul (50:16):
I will give you it.
Alison (50:17):
Okay.
Yeah.
i asked you an
Paul (50:18):
unconventional question.
You give me an unconventionalanswer to the unconventional
question.
Sweet.
We will live with that, right?
Alison (50:23):
Say it whisper say it.
You can see I don't follow therules.
I could say could it also be Idid like the card.
I, know it's not a board game, Imean.
Listen, I played Monopolybefore, so you know, of course I
love Monopoly.
that's a great game.
But, I have to say, probably oneof the most fun I had is playing
Twister.
'cause it was of course,'causeit's a group, you know, it's a,
(50:47):
group game and everyone gets alllike twisted up and, I don't
know, it's just kind of fun.
Paul (50:52):
I love it.
I love it.
Alison, you've been anabsolutely fabulous guest.
Thank you so much for your timethis evening.
I really do appreciate
Alison (50:58):
Oh, Paul, thank you.
It has been an absolute honorand thank you so much for
inviting me on your podcast.
I've enjoyed every moment of it.
Paul (51:07):
You are more than welcome, and we will, like I said, we'll
have you back'cause I've,thoroughly enjoyed the chat and
there's so much more we can diveinto.
I.
If you are watching along athome and you've, thoroughly
enjoyed the conversation.
Have a look in the show notes'cause all of Alison links will
be in there.
So if you wanna contact Alison,you wanna find out a bit more
about Unconvention, youabsolutely do that.
If you want a podcast and, givethat a subscribe to follow,
(51:28):
please do.
Because I'm a big fan of all ofour guests who have their own
podcasts.
We need to spread the word aboutgood podcast'cause God knows is
enough poor quality stuff outthere that's just bland.
If you've listened to thisepisode, you're gonna know that
Alison's would be anything.
But, thank you listeners,watchers at home for, coming
along and watching this episodeas ever.
(51:49):
you have any ideas for guests,anybody you'd like to see on the
show and topics you'd likecovered, please drop me a line,
let me know.
But please, above all and elsegive us a subscribe and a
follow.
Thank you very much and I'll seeyou next week all and else.
Right.
How do you break the ruleswithout breaking yourself and
build a career where bolddecisions lead to real Dr.
Alison Schmidt is the founderand CEO of Unconvention, a
leadership coaching andorganisational consulting firm
that rejects one size fits allsolutions.
(00:22):
With over 20 years of experienceworking alongside CXOs boards
entrepreneurs and industryleaders, Alison specialises in
uncovering what's reallyblocking the progress, and then
designing high impact strategiesthat break through barriers.
And create lasting momentum.
She's also the creator and hostof UnConversations,
Alison (00:43):
Hm.
Paul (00:44):
podcast where executives and disruptors share raw,
unconventional stories of definethe norms, embracing change, and
redefining their success.
Alison's approach blends candidhonesty with a commitment to
building cultures whereinnovation is lived daily, a PhD
in organisational psychology.
As well as being a boardcertified coach, Alison draws
(01:06):
inspiration from global Travelwith her wife Norma, infusing
her work with diverseperspectives and a di edit and
you wanna get one wrong and adrive for meaningful change.
Alison?
Wow, what a bio.
Welcome to the show.
Alison (01:23):
Thank you Paul.
I'm listening to that now.
I understand how my guests feelwhen I kind of introduce them.
'cause you're sitting here like,wow.
I have done a lot.
Thank you.
That I am just so happy to behere.
Thank you for the very warmwelcome to your show.
Paul (01:39):
More than welcome.
More than welcome.
I'm gonna dive straight in likeI do with, all of our guests
because there's so much to coveramongst all of that, and I
really want to get through asmuch as I can, because I know
your story is going to beabsolutely fascinating for a lot
of our audience.
Let's, rewind back to.
What, was your first paid role?
(02:00):
What was your first salary job?
and what led you there?
Because that's, for me, that'soften where it starts.
Alison (02:07):
you know, I actually worked in retail, so I worked
for Gap.
For a bit of time.
One I loved fashion and gap wasvery fashionable back then.
And, of course I loved workingwith with people.
And I I did have some people ata time that I you know, mentored
(02:27):
in that process, coached in thatprocess.
And I, like I said, it, was kindof an easy an easy job because
it kind of blend the things thatI really enjoyed.
And then I kind of moved into I,I also worked for the Marriott.
At a certain period of time.
(02:49):
So I was in hospitality.
I actually thought I was gonnago down the hospitality road and
then I figured I didn't thinkthat was a good place for me.
I think'cause I wanted to changeso much of what the different
roles and responsibilities thatI was doing, that I was thinking
to myself.
I don't know of hospitality.
I think I'm a better guest thanI am a better employee to work
(03:14):
in that space.
Paul (03:15):
Mm.
Mm-hmm.
Alison (03:17):
and then again, still working with people.
I decided that I wanted to, Iwas in social work for a period
of time, so I was working withgang kids.
And I started to get quite burntout of that.
And I moved then kind of in therole of doing more family family
(03:40):
and adolescent therapy, notnecessarily more, and working
with the gang kids side.
And then when I decided that Ithought I was gonna get my PhD
in.
Clinical psychology.
I have this passion.
I know we'll get into that ofbusiness and people, which is
(04:02):
sort of why organizationalpsychology kind of became a,
really natural fit for me.
Paul (04:09):
Wow.
So, I mean, even just in that,in, in that early intro, we've
gone from, retail andhospitality, which I know a lot
of people that connect betweenthe two and I'm, former retail
and I'm a big believer that who.
Cuts their teeth in a career inretail or hospitality, really
learn so many transferableskills.
Alison (04:31):
totally.
Paul (04:32):
whole, tend to box ourselves into doing more of the
same.
And, a lot of people stay inthat career for life.
But actually I'm a big believerthat if you are looking for
somebody.
A little bit outside the boxthat's well-rounded and, is able
to do a lot of different tasksthat they've not necessarily
been trained on.
Retail and hospitality are thego-to industries for me because
we're so flexible and, talentedin that respect.
Alison (04:57):
I would totally agree with you on that.
I, think, and it's a very highpaced both of those industries
are extremely
Paul (05:05):
and high pressure.
Alison (05:06):
and high paced.
Which I will say a lot of thoseskills that I learned in those
experiences, you know, I youknow, I still use to this day.
And plus I have a hugeadmiration for those individuals
that, do work in thoseindustries without a doubt.
Paul (05:25):
Yeah.
you can't not appreciate peoplein that.
But once you've been there anddone it yourself, right?
Yeah, I hundred percent, ahundred percent.
Get that.
how did you end up working withgang kids and social work
Alison (05:36):
Yeah.
Paul (05:37):
like
Alison (05:37):
That normally, yeah.
Paul (05:38):
of that, where
Alison (05:40):
I think my, parents asked me the same thing because
I certainly did not grow up.
I grew up very middle class but
Paul (05:47):
Hmm.
Alison (05:48):
I loved, you know what it is.
I think for me it was achallenge.
I didn't even though I grew upmiddle class, I did go through
my own struggles.
And my parents were there tohelp me to the best of their
ability.
And I have always found,especially in kids and
adolescents, you know, they're,just looking for someone.
(06:11):
That really gets them and kindof understands them and not
realizing that their pastnecessarily doesn't have to
define their future.
And it just, it, I was justdrawn, I was really drawn to
really helping those kids I wasliving at the time in Los
Angeles.
So, you know, people would bevery surprised to know that I,
(06:32):
was walking the streets inCompton which as a Caucasian
woman were predominantly blackpeople were in that area.
It, was very like.
Whoa, what, are you doing here?
And but I think because of thedifferences, and I think because
of my empathy not, and notnecessarily coming from a place
(06:55):
of feeling sorry for these kids,but more of wanting to
understand them, I think I wasable to do some amazing work
and, really help a, lot of kids,more or less than, not but.
On the flip side of that, Inoticed within myself that I was
(07:17):
becoming quite a hard person.
Meaning you're seeing a lot onthe street.
And seeing what these kids gothrough not only the mental,
physical, sexual abuse thatcould possibly go on the living
conditions that some of thesekids were living.
You, you be, you have to kindof, protect yourself a bit.
(07:41):
And when I went through thatprocess.
You know, it was kind of, Ididn't sort of like what was
sort of happening with me, whichis where I needed to kind of
take a step back and kind ofredefine what sort of additional
focus I, wanted to do as a as acareer moving forward.
Paul (08:00):
I can imagine I can't.
Well, no, I can't imagine.
I can't imagine some of thethings you've heard and stories
you've had told to you.
I mean, we have gang life herein England, but I don't think
it, it very rarely edges ontothe skill that, that I know that
from, friends and connectionsthat I've got in the states
(08:21):
that, you know, certainly in,in, areas like Compton and, many
others that, you must see.
So that's, amazing gift thatyou've been given to be able to
work with people.
And as you see, I think theimportant thing is, not, coming
from a, like these people, like,they don't want people to feel
sorry for them, right?
Like, they just do want to beunderstood.
(08:43):
And I think that's an amazingdifferentiation to be able to
make for, a lot of people.
So you've always had people inthe, in your soul, right?
Like this what fills you up is,is that
Alison (08:55):
For sure, for sure.
Paul (08:57):
people become better than what they are.
What's your earliest memory ofthen challenging the status core
to help ship the path thatyou've taken since then?
Alison (09:08):
You know, you and I spoke about this before and I
think one of the things thatreally resonated with you and I
allowed you, and I reallyappreciate.
Appreciate you allowing me toshare this, but I was diagnosed
with a learning disability.
I've always had it, of course,but this was something that was
fully diagnosed when I was 18years old about to graduate from
(09:30):
high school.
And, you know, during that timeit was difficult because.
You know, I didn't know how toreally explain what was kind of
going on with me.
My parents didn't know reallywhat was going on.
All they wanted to know was,what do I need to do to get my
child to graduate and we cansend her to a good school.
(09:51):
But that process during that wasvery transactional.
Not really back then.
There wasn't people that youcould really talk to that you
could really kind of have.
Empathy and support.
It was more of, okay, let'sfigure out what's going on.
Let's figure out what box we'regonna put her in so we know how
to treat this and, move on.
(10:14):
And so for me, again, that wasthe best that, you know, the
environment you're talkingabout, the eighties and the type
of tests that were out there,that was really the best they
could do.
However though for me, I felt itwas a stigma and I had this
piece of paper that they gave tome when I was, diagnosed and I
(10:36):
carried this piece of paperaround with me up until I
graduated from my PhD.
So this is something from 1989,I'm just about to date myself.
And I carried this piece ofpaper'cause it was the only way
that I could get specialaccommodation.
For testing and other thingsthat I would need, and it wasn't
(10:59):
a lot, but the, accommodationsthat I need back then seem like
they were life changing.
Today.
They're probably like, yeah, youneed some extra time.
No worries.
It's all good.
Paul (11:10):
Yep.
Alison (11:10):
But for some reason back then it was, that is not fair to
the masses.
You may need that.
Instead of going, yes, you havesomething, this is gonna help
you.
Achieve and be great like yourother counterparts, but instead
it was looked at.
(11:31):
We don't wanna show favoritism.
And so that's why I had to carrythis piece of paper.
And I think for me I think itmade me stronger.
I think it has made me, a greatbusinesswoman.
And I think it also has made mevery good at what I'm able to do
(11:51):
in my coaching and consultingpractice that I've had 30 years.
And, being able to not only helpmy clients with transactional
things they may need, but alsofor me, it's really that human
side.
(12:12):
And I think going through what Iwent through early on has made
me even more of an empatheticand understanding person that I
am today.
Paul (12:23):
Yeah.
it's, interesting, like you'vementioned like the, unspecified
learning disability, which, Ifind in equal parts interesting
and frustrating, and I almostfeel a frustration on your
behalf because how can we knowthat there is something I need
support with, but not be able toput a name to what that is,
Alison (12:44):
Right.
Paul (12:44):
almost a contradiction in itself.
Right.
Alison (12:47):
Well, they had a name for it, but it wasn't a very
good name that they, it was avery derogatory name that they
would probably use,
Paul (12:56):
mm-hmm.
Alison (12:58):
that would be completely unacceptable now and what that
could do to someone.
Paul (13:03):
a lot of
Alison (13:03):
Yeah.
Paul (13:04):
eighties, right?
Alison (13:05):
For.
Paul (13:06):
Yeah.
Yeah, it's, but it, rings, itreminds me of the conversation I
had with, so the charity partnerfor Our show, which is ADHD,
Liberty, and the lady who runsthat, Sarah Templeton, met
because.
I'd listened to the audio bookthat she'd released, which is
titled How Not To Murder YourADHD Kids.
(13:28):
And, she's the most Britishperson for an audio book, right?
So she's very, kind of almostsounds like a posh accent when
she speaks,
Alison (13:37):
Sure.
Paul (13:37):
very down to earth with it.
so.
it's, I can't really describeit, but go, away and have a
listen to it if you've got time,because it's, just a phenomenal
listen.
And I identified so much ofmyself in that book when I was,
trying to find out about my son,and I contacted her and said,
I'd love to have you on theshow, love to have you on the
show.
And she said, yes.
(13:57):
But during that show, her storywas that she'd been a prison
counselor for a decade, and atthe age of 52, she was
diagnosed, ADHD
Alison (14:07):
Mm-hmm.
Paul (14:07):
And what she realised was the reason why she'd been able
to connect with all of theprisoners that she'd worked with
so well was because she trulyunderstood the way their brain
worked.
And what she now does is, a lotof important work on how to
break the school to prisonpipeline for undiagnosed or
unmedicated ADHD people.
(14:29):
Which to me sounds, it's got alot in common with the story
that you've just shared therewith, you know, being able to
reach gang kids and, workingunafraid in that environment
because you know that up here,you've, connected with them,
you've see them, you understandthem.
Not that.
You, you un you've experiencedwhat they've experienced because
(14:51):
that's not true.
But you've, learned tounderstand what motivates them,
why they do the things they do,and you can speak to them on
their level where you kind ofshared that energy together.
I do wonder, did you think thatkind of level of empathy and
understanding is something thatthen helped you stand out in
your field and, kind of motivateyou towards getting that PhD
(15:12):
then?
Alison (15:12):
For, without a doubt.
Without a doubt.
Paul.
I, you know, I think the otherthing as I was going through my
PhD program, and I think, youknow, it's interesting because I
actually have two master'sdegrees and a PhD and so one of
my master's degree is ineducation.
Clinical education.
(15:33):
Then as I was getting my PhD inorganisational psychology, you
get a master's, you go throughthat process and then
Paul (15:40):
Yeah.
Alison (15:40):
and so what, what was kind of an oxymoron about all
this is because I, feel like I'ma better speaker, and writing is
probably one of the hardestthings for me.
And reading is also one of thehardest things for me because
for me, when I read something.
I have to read word for word andthen go back and put it
(16:02):
together, and then the sentencethen makes sense to me.
That is usually why multiplechoice questions are like, you
know, usually my demise, butbecause of, I never.
Took no for an answer.
I think I was receiving a lot ofmessages that I can't do
something and I think back thenthat was more of the message
(16:24):
that you couldn't do something.
Then the message I think that itis today of you can, this, these
aren't things that need to stopyou.
And so for me that's really, Iwas my mentor really in that.
And I didn't realise much ofthat until I went through my own
(16:45):
executive coaching and my owntherapy that I've done that I
needed to give myself that,credit to be able to go, no, no
matter what was getting in yourway, you still knew that you
could achieve it.
You knew it was gonna be hard ashell and you know, it was gonna
be a tough road.
(17:05):
And there were times I was.
Just crying out of purefrustration.
But at the end of the day, Iknew there was no other way but
to complete it.
And I also think that comes toofrom my, which is why on my
podcast will that I hope we getto too, is I interview elite
(17:26):
coaches and athletes because I,myself was a competitive swimmer
and I also ran, and so I thinksports was really.
A lifeline for me because thatgave me a healthy way to deal
with my frustrations or dealwith insecurities or deal with
(17:48):
if I was feeling anxiety orfeeling depressed.
I, knew that if there was thatoutlet for me through sports I
think also has helped me get tothe individual that I am today.
Paul (18:04):
Yeah, I think people that I've spoke to, I think there's,
(18:44):
something, something specialabout swimming.
That it's kind of, it's almostsensory stimulation for a lot of
people.
And, it's, it makes it very easyto, focus in the moment.
Alison (18:56):
Yes,
Paul (18:56):
Whereas a lot of other sports can be quite loud and
intimidating and, team sports,you've gotta work together.
You've gotta listen to whatpeople are saying.
Whereas swimming, a lot of thetime is it's solo sport
Alison (19:06):
yes.
and
Paul (19:07):
you're in the water.
And I've heard a lot of peoplesay, I just find peace.
Alison (19:10):
Yes,
Paul (19:11):
I find peace in that moment when I'm underwater and,
nothing else matters beautiful,
Alison (19:17):
it's, true.
It's you and the current of thewater and how fast you're gonna,
how fast you're gonna go.
Paul (19:22):
amazing.
you're 100%
Alison (19:24):
about that.
Yeah, it is.
It's, a very kind of peaceful,but you know, and it's,
breathing is a very big part ofswimming and knowing when to
breathe
Paul (19:35):
Yep.
Alison (19:36):
and knowing when to breathe can either make or break
that particular race.
And I, have learned that andtaken that valuable lesson
throughout my career becausewhen I am feeling something
overstimulating or has me notfeeling balanced.
(19:58):
I think about that moment ofbeing in the water and getting
my breath in check, and thathelps me tremendously.
Paul (20:09):
So if we then, if, we kind of go back to the your work
timeline, I guess what was thepoint where you realised you
didn't fit into the traditionalcorporate mold?
Was there a, turning point foryou?
Where, kind of a switch flicked
Alison (20:25):
Yeah,
Paul (20:25):
what, was it?
Alison (20:26):
I, think I have always felt that I'm from, I think I
kind of made a joke on anotherpodcast, I think it was even
when I came outta my mom's womb,that, I've always felt that way.
I, and I sort of almost feltlike an outcast in, that way.
Because I am such an inquisitiveperson and, I don't ask why.
(20:52):
Meaning?
Why?
Because I just wanna say why, orI think something needs to
change because internally, I,feel I'm right about something.
I, think.
One of my we'll use the termthat people say, I guess
superpower is I'm able to reallylook at a situation very
(21:14):
differently than sometimes otherpeople and in such a deeper way.
And I, try to cover that up abit because I.
You know, people were notresponding, weren't responding
well to that because they wantedme to conform and just say yes
or agree with either it was myboss or the coworker or whatever
(21:39):
the case may be.
And, even in my family, I, havealways been just an inquisitive
person and I like to understandhow things work.
I like to understand how peoplethink and.
I, tried very hard to lessenthat until I started my own
(22:01):
business.
And when I started my ownbusiness and started, and this
was my first one, it was calledALS group.
And I think at that time when Igave myself the freedom to not
conform and to not do whateveryone else is doing.
I was getting a lot morepositive reinforcement than
(22:24):
actually negative reinforcement.
If, that makes sense.
Paul (22:28):
Yeah.
No.
It does.
it does.
And I think that resonates for alot of us who've gone off and
built our own business.
Certainly, my experience as aNeurodiverse crew.
That I speak to, you know, Ifind that, you know, I, remember
conversations when, I was,conversations when I was at
work, and you exactly whatyou've said resonates really so
much because I remember aspecific conversation with my
(22:52):
area manager when I was running,when I was running retail
stores, and frustration with meboiled over one morning, about 3
o'clock in the morning.
We'd, done a stock take thenight before and we were still
all there.
it was me and like 4 of my, 4 ofmy colleagues who were also
managers and, he was dishing outjobs and he just, he asked me to
do something and I just went,why why, are we doing that?
(23:16):
Right?
And he was like, Paul, itdoesn't matter why you just, why
can't you just tow the companyline for once?
You know, your life would bemuch easier if you just did what
you were asked.
And I was like.
Well, it might be, but that'snot the way I'm wired.
Alison (23:29):
Yeah, I
Paul (23:30):
need to know why, because what you've told me to do
doesn't seem to make sense.
If you can explain, there'ssomething that I don't
understand, then, I can getbehind that and you'll not find
anybody who will be morepassionate about doing what
you've asked
Alison (23:43):
exactly.
Yeah.
Paul (23:44):
But if you expect me to do something.
That, that potentially is, itdoesn't have a positive benefit
to anybody that I can see or,positive impact in any way,
shape or form.
You just want me to change aprocess for the sake of changing
it.
You will not find anybody willdrag their heels more than I
will.
Alison (24:02):
Right.
Paul (24:02):
And you can discipline me, you can put me on the naughty
step.
You can do what you like, but Iwill not do it out of principle.
Alison (24:09):
Yeah.
Paul (24:09):
And we, never quite, you know, was no, I didn't realise I
was ADHD at the time.
There was no conversation aboutthat corporate world.
We didn't discuss neurodiversityin
Alison (24:18):
Oh, no.
No, not at all.
Paul (24:20):
but what you've said, just,
Alison (24:22):
Yeah.
Paul (24:22):
like it's, it's, funny.
I know, I bet there, there areso many people out there who are
kind of stuck in that same rutand don't even realise why they
find those things frustrating.
So for me that's, it's, quiteliberating.
what happened with ALS then?
So you mentioned that was yourfirst buisness
Alison (24:37):
Yeah.
Yeah.
So, I had ALS group and that Ihad that business for over 20
years.
And then COVID hit.
And
Paul (24:49):
Right.
Alison (24:49):
everything just it was a horrible time.
It was a very stressful time forme.
I was traveling quite often.
Everything just completelystopped with the whole world.
I had contracts, that peoplewere like, we don't know what's
happening, what's going on?
And so I.
(25:11):
You know, I was talking to my,wife and I was like, okay, so I
don't know how long this isgonna go.
And then I'm sitting here like,how do I do what I do and do as
well as I can do it with myclients over this kind of
outlet?
We've had, you know, we've hadWebEx around for a while.
(25:31):
We had Zoom.
These were meetings, these were,but how do I really connect with
someone so strongly?
How do you get accountabilityfrom your clients over this
screen?
So that was one of my initialthoughts.
And then the other initialthought that came to my mind
was, wow, I had this moment toreally sit here, stop and
(25:55):
reflect.
Like, when do we really get to,to do that?
And so I'm an avid cyclist.
I, don't run much anymore.
And so I went out for a longbike ride next day, got up, went
out for a long bike ride, and Ihad a discussion with myself and
it was like, if you could dosomething, time wasn't an issue,
(26:22):
would you?
Keep doing the kind ofconsulting work that you're
doing and the coaching work thatyou're doing.
And I answered myself honestly,that I felt that there were some
missing pieces to my offerings,to what I enjoy doing with
people where I like to help.
Corporations and I went throughmy process and I decided that
(26:49):
ALS group was no longer the,name, yes, it's me but it was no
longer serving itself in thecontext that I first started
this company.
And I, my company is calledUnconvention, as you mentioned,
because that Is embracing me asbeing an unconventional CEO and
(27:13):
leader and, embracing all thewonderful things about me
personally and professionallythat make up this unconventional
individual and the type ofofferings and the work and the
type of clients I wanna workwith.
And you also mentioned I'm the,creator and host of
(27:34):
UnConversations.
It's, and I, mean, I had peopletalk to me about doing that and
I was like, okay, so I'm gonnanow do something where it's not
very competitive in the podcastmarket.
Like, what am I gonna do?
Like, okay, let me see how I canplay in this space.
(27:54):
And as you said, we, interviewunconventionally excellent
global CXOs, entrepreneurs andfounders, and my goal is to
globally begin to bring thehuman side back to business and
where we can understand thehuman side of these leaders and
(28:17):
what truly, besides theirtactical work that they do.
And they're amazing, their owncompanies or the companies that
they're employed with, butthere's also this amazing person
and amazing stories that need tobe shared and talked about that
got them to where they aretoday.
And I, like you and I were justtalking before, it is just one
(28:40):
of my greatest, greatesthighlights is being, and, I
think I'm more.
I feel more honored to have myguests come on.
They, tell me they're honoredand I appreciate that, but I,
feel the honor just because ofthe level and the vulnerability
that my guests are willing to goto it.
It's, really a, special podcast.
Paul (29:02):
I love that.
I have to ask as one podcasthost to another, Alison,
Alison (29:06):
Yes.
Paul (29:06):
how do you come across unconventional Leaders in order
to invite them on the podcast?
Because let's be honest, thereis no LinkedIn filter for
conventional versusunconventional.
Alison (29:16):
Correct.
Paul (29:17):
what, how, do you find them?
Alison (29:19):
Well, you know, it, I started out doing a couple of
what I like to call cold call onLinkedIn.
I either loved the person'sbrand, I loved what they talked
about.
I loved the products.
It was all the above.
And I have to tell you now, it'smore people who have been on the
(29:41):
show after they've gone throughthe process that they're like,
this is.
This is really cool.
And part of what makes mypodcast very uniquely different
is I have my guests go throughwhat I coined the UN word
effect.
And I have each of my gueststhink of 3 words that begin with
(30:02):
un And here in the, States theUN sometimes in the English
language here in the US can havea very negative connotation a
meaning to it.
And so I have my guests thinkabout what that process was like
(30:22):
for them.
When I asked them to think aboutthese UN words.
I had them come up with those unwords and talk about them
individually, and it's beenamazing because you get this
really unique.
Understanding, in depth,understanding of who this
individual is by just how theycame up with these UN words,
(30:44):
through the process and theindividual words themselves.
And even sometimes I'm evenshocked.
I'm like, wow, that is such agreat word for that person.
And then they'll even go into itfurther and I'm like, oh my God,
I had no idea that word had somuch meaning.
To them and, some of the youngwords could, be, have a negative
(31:09):
and the guests will speak of itin a way where this really
contributed to the early partof, their life, but how they
actually overcame it to a muchmore positive experience.
But even if the word wasnegative for them, it is still a
learning process that they wentthrough and it's amazing what
(31:31):
they.
Shared through that process towhere that word now no longer
identifies or holds a negativemeaning to them, if that makes
sense?
Paul (31:42):
How did you come up with the idea?
what, inspired you to ask themthat in the first place?
Alison (31:48):
Yeah, it's a great question.
What inspired me really was whenpeople would ask me about.
We use these words, like, I'd belike, oh, I'm out.
You know, I'm Dr.
Alison Schmidt and you know, I'mCEO of X company and, it's the
same sort of thing.
And I was like, well, that's notreally intriguing.
(32:11):
I mean, those are just liketactical things about me, but.
Doesn't really tell peoplereally who I am and what I'm
about.
And I, spoke to a colleague ofmine when I was trying to come
up with the name of my companyunconvention and she's from
Paris and she said, I don'tknow, there's something around
(32:32):
this un and, I think it could bean amazing branding for your
company.
And I was like, I don't evenknow what that means.
Okay.
And so I started doing my own.
Paul (32:43):
that in a French accent as you
Alison (32:44):
Oh, it was ama.
Oh yeah.
It's, I will tell you, itsounded way sexier when she said
it in an accent than, having itwith a US or a, you know, a, New
York slash Texas accent.
I was like, so say that to meagain, why I should do this.
No, it, it sounded great.
(33:05):
I really should just have her domore of my podcast intros for
me.
But yeah, I, brought myselfthrough my own onward effect.
I didn't know what it was gonnabe called, and in fact, I didn't
come up with that onward effectuntil April of this year.
Then I started trying it outwith certain guests and seeing
how it was gonna flow.
But the concept behind it isactually what I went through
(33:29):
myself, and I did identify myown un words At the time, my un
words were unconventional, ofcourse unapologetic and
undeterred were my 3 And it justhelped.
It just kind of helped me how Italked to people about myself
(33:54):
because I've just, so, I've justbeen so used to talking like.
This, and I'm like, God, I'mbored of myself.
Like there's more to me thanjust these degrees and my title.
And, I, wanted to find a way tohelp get to the core and who I
am today, and that's sort of howthat process all began.
Paul (34:17):
That's a, that's a brilliant story.
I love that.
I'm so pleased I asked that.
so then I guess your, so yourfocus is around unconventional
leadership, which makes me wantto ask the question.
What's the most unconventionalleadership decision you've made
that you are the most proud of?
I think not, the mostunconventional decision, but
(34:37):
Which one are you most proud of?
What did that teach you?
Alison (34:40):
You know, I, will tell you, I, my earlier career, I did
things very unconvention.
I did things conventionally,excuse me.
I did things veryconventionally.
I did things the way, textbookwise, we should do very kind of
systemically.
(35:00):
And I didn't realise howunfulfilling that really was for
me.
And I, do feel confidently thatI was serving.
My clients, of course, to thebest of my ability.
But I, would have to say COVIDfor me was such a blessing
(35:21):
because it, to me, my, my familywas safe, thankfully.
And, I got to go, yeah.
I wanna start having fun withreally good fun with what I'm
doing and.
I think allowing myself finallyat 50 to not do the things that
(35:42):
people would expect me to do.
And so this is probably the mostfun I've had, not only doing
this podcast, which scared me todeath, you know, I don't know
when you first started, but it,did me, not that I don't like
talking to people, but I'm veryhard on myself.
'cause I wanna produce a reallygreat.
(36:03):
Product and I wanna do reallywell by the guests that is
sharing the space with me duringtheir, episode.
So for me, I, think the mostunconventional thing for me that
I could have done was givingmyself the permission to be
unconventional.
And no matter what anyone'sgonna say, think do, it, didn't
(36:27):
matter.
I, gave myself that, that, thatfreedom.
And I, I know with the responsethat I've been getting from
people, the level of connectionsthat I've been able to get you
know, I, it's just been superfun.
It's just been a lot of fun and,I think I, that's how I knew it
was time to make that change.
Paul (36:48):
I think there's so many people that, that could learn a
lesson from that Alison, becauseit's, it kind of, it's very much
in line with a lot of the thingsthat I've, preached for so long.
You know, I, mean, I, leftcorporate world in 2020 just as
COVID was hitting and I'd alwaysworked in person and I was, at
that time I was working inretail.
As COVID kicked off
Alison (37:08):
Mm-hmm.
Paul (37:08):
It was an awful experience to,
Alison (37:10):
Oh,
Paul (37:10):
having to
Alison (37:11):
horrible.
Paul (37:11):
to work during that when so many people were, you know,
oh, we're working from home nowand we get a laptop and I can
protect my family, and, I'm theguy that's, you know, still
going out there and, puttingmyself on the line.
But the more I've come awayfrom.
That corporate world and I guessunincorporated myself.
(37:31):
So if I want to use an un word,there's, one for me like that.
That's sort tough for people todo is to switch from getting
permission to speak my mind orto say something that might
contradict our policies andprocedures, just being able to
express myself.
You know, I remember my veryfirst guest podcast.
(37:52):
I, was podcasted, I was asked tobe a guest on a retail loss
prevention podcast'cause that'smy background.
I did a lot of, work in lossprevention and fraud, still
remember getting on that audioonly podcast.
And being absolutely terrifiedwhen they hit the record button
and asked me to introducemyself, because what was going
(38:14):
through my head was, know, youare just a store manager.
you've just worked in retail for15 years, but you're, not a
senior leader.
you've never run your ownbusiness.
You've never done all of thesethings.
Why would anybody want to listento you?
And it's, there was this, voicewas so real and I found myself
like I'm quite a confidenttalker on, those sorts of
(38:35):
things.
But I just found myselfhyperventilating.
And for the first 10 minutes,I've listened to that podcast
since the first 10 minutes areawful because.
i'm just like, yeah, I can, I,remember my brain just reeling,
like, what do I say?
What do I say?
How do I make sure I don't sayanything that's gonna get me in
trouble?
What if somebody who, I used towork with is listening to this
and what would they think of me?
Alison (38:55):
Yeah, and i'm
Paul (38:55):
trying to introduce myself at the same time, and I'm still
figuring on my own story and howto introduce myself.
You're right, it's, absolutelypetrifying But at the same time,
it's so liberating once you getused to it because.
You become your own voice ofreason.
I think to your point
Alison (39:12):
yeah, I.
that
Paul (39:13):
passion is, paramount.
Alison (39:14):
Yeah, I absolutely agree.
You know, it's interestingbecause when, you know, being in
this space of, coaching andconsulting, which I've done for
a very long time, but when Idecided to do the podcast, I
remember you know, hey, youshould reach out to your friends
and, Family and ask them for,you know, referrals on who,
(39:34):
whatever.
And I, I remember clearly, I,asked one my really very close
friend and the first wordsweren't like, man, that sounds
freaking cool.
I love what you're gonna do.
That's like, really awesome.
It was like, so what do youthink is gonna be in it for your
guests?
(39:55):
And I was like.
And, my head just was just like,what?
Like what?
What do you, what do you mean?
Like, I just told you like, thisis like great.
I mean, you know, like, what doyou mean how's this sound?
And it was like, but thedifference at that point for
that person was what is it infor them money-wise?
(40:20):
Meaning how could anyone dosomething without there
necessarily being a monetaryconnection to it?
And, I, will say I have had morepeople I think I only had.
One person that said that, Hey,you know, they don't do anything
(40:40):
without being paid.
And you know, their friends haveasked them to and they need to
be paid.
And I'm like, oh, okay.
I get it all good.
And then I had one other personthat kind of had a similar
thing, but I will tell you therest of them, I have just been
like, I have been so lookingforward to this because.
You said it perfectly, and Ithink your podcast does a
(41:03):
beautiful job in this too.
We're looking for platformswhere we can express ourselves.
The business is, gonna be there.
we will get to that, and that'scrucially important.
But I think also being able toexpress ourselves, tell people
who we are, I think is also justas important because that
(41:25):
person's like, ah, man, I heardyou on this podcast.
You had the vibe.
I like, I love the way you talk.
I, Just get this really greatconnection and I wanna do
coaching with you.
Like, I, get it.
I mean, you are probably gonnakick my ass and I want you, and
that's why I think blending bothof these components and, I think
(41:50):
corporations also, I was readingin some of your questions and,
one of them really stood out tome.
They, they all did, by the way.
But.
We have to allow in corporationsfor employees to be able to
express themselves.
And, I think that's going toreally help with, and not just
(42:11):
when we meet with an employee,we're talking about tactical
things, performance things.
Has this been completed?
When's it gonna be completed?
But really understand because.
We are in a a very interestingtime here in the States and with
our administration what ishappening and we're also dealing
(42:34):
with the pressures of what'shappening with corporations
here.
There are layoffs.
There's probably gonna be manymore layoffs, which is probably
gonna be happening right beforethe holidays.
That's usually the time thatkind of happens and.
You know, I, think leaders needto spend more time being
empathetic and understanding aslong and, what their employees
(42:59):
are going through, as well astheir roles and responsibilities
that are needing to be met inthe organisation And I, really
speak about that clearly there.
Yes, you can be a great leader,but I think one of the greatest.
Skillset as a leader is to beempathetic and understanding as
well as the tactical things thatyou need to make sure that your
(43:23):
team obviously is responsiblefor.
Paul (43:26):
I think it's a root, super rare skill set though, right?
Alison (43:28):
Yeah.
Paul (43:31):
not, many leaders, even the ones that are capable of
both feel the pressure to not beboth because.
The problem for a lot ofcompanies always comes from
above, right?
Comes down from the top leveland comes down from investors
and, shareholders whoever, andthey want to see results.
Alison (43:49):
Yeah.
Paul (43:49):
And results mean things need to be measured.
And empathy can't be measuredreally.
Alison (43:55):
Yeah, it can
Paul (43:55):
but kind of not in the same way that investors and
shareholders care about, right?
Alison (43:59):
of course.
Paul (43:59):
Nobody's ever gonna stand up and say, well, you know what?
Empathy levels were up 30% thisyear, and that's in line with
our revenue increase in, sowe're all gonna be more
empathetic.
That would be a great time,right?
Like everybody would love to beable to do that, I think that's
what drives a lot of thechallenges that we see in
leadership certainly in Westernculture, right?
(44:19):
Like, I, think that's, a massiveproblem that we need to address
and get to grip of, because.
Otherwise, we're just gonna bestuck in this constant loop of
corporate life.
Best people freeing themselvesand becoming entrepreneurs and
founding their own businessesand moving on with life, but
who's left running the corporateworld?
(44:40):
'cause we need people in thatcorporate life.
Alison (44:41):
Of course, it's
Paul (44:42):
not like we can just all extract ourselves and, be happy.
We
Alison (44:46):
of course.
Of course.
need
Paul (44:47):
people in the coporate So, I, you know,hats off to anybody
that can go into thatenvironment and help make a
difference because I think it's,certainly needed.
It's, you know.
I can't imagine how brave theleaders have to be in the first
place to even request the help.
Right.
to get coaching in
Alison (45:07):
Yeah,
Paul (45:07):
we,'cause you need to acknowledge your problem first.
Right.
Alison (45:10):
definitely, definitely.
Paul (45:12):
I wonder what's in your experience then, Alison, you
know, obviously you've workedwith lots of leaders, you've
worked with lots of industrysectors.
What's.
What's working in leadership andbusiness right now that leaders
should pay more attention to?
Aside from kind of empathy and,understanding what's, something
that you think everybody'smissing?
Alison (45:29):
You know, again, you know, I think really what
they're missing is, think.
proper training of their, andproper coaching of their, and,
also asking your employees whatthey really wanna do and where
they wanna go.
I find that your leaders aren'tspending the time asking their
(45:54):
team what they really enjoydoing.
I think they just go, oh, we'llmove so and so into this role.
And, that'll be, really great.
And then that, and that persondoesn't necessarily wanna say no
because they're at risk thattheir job is probably, you know,
well then we'll find someoneelse who wants to do it and
you'll be let go.
Paul (46:14):
Yep.
Alison (46:14):
And so I, think what leaders need to do is, I mean, a
lot of these things are very.
Cyclical.
We're, doing the same things andwe're getting the same results.
Like, to me, it's amazing thatwe're talking about retention.
Like retention.
To me, I is just like, I, can'tbelieve we're still talking
(46:37):
about it because there's reallyclear, there's studies, there's
clear things that corporationscan, honestly do that are not
very expensive.
Because what's expensive isturnover.
We do not wanna look at thatnumber because that number, we
just don't wanna see it.
(46:57):
And I will tell you, I, I havebeen preaching this too since I
was in graduate school that Ican't believe we're in this,
same place.
But I also think we also need tospend the time.
Really get the people that wewant to move into these
leadership roles.
Not just trained because we havea, set training company and as
(47:23):
long as they go in and check thebox on all their trainings that
great, we, they, checked thebox, they achieved everything
they needed to.
You are now a leader and go leadthat, that is, doesn't make an
effective leader that, that haseducated them.
With some tools to consider, buta good leader is also internal.
(47:45):
'cause I have some skill sets asa leader that you're not gonna
find in a textbook.
it's in my DNA and through myown experience on top of the
things that I.
You know, have learned throughmany years of, schooling and
being on, the job.
And I, so I think if we spendtime asking people what type of
(48:09):
work do they really enjoy doing,and let those people do that and
also have proper successionplanning because if people know
that if they work hard and,showing the results, that
there's a next step for them.
They're gonna be even morecommitted to wanting to even
(48:30):
work harder for the company thatthey're working for.
But I find with leadership, we,tend to alienate employees.
We don't wanna talk to them.
Then they finally get reallyupset and then they're like,
that's it.
I wanna, I'm gonna leave.
And statistically speaking, 9times outta 10.
(48:54):
It still shows up as the numberone reason that employees will
leave a company because of theirmanagers.
It is not necessarily because ofthe money aspect, it's because
of, there could be a combinationof that, of course, but usually
it's because of the managers ofwhy or their direct reports of
why they're leaving.
Paul (49:13):
I think we need to see a culture change where.
We take ownership of the leadersfor tomorrow.
And I think that's it's veryshortsighted leadership approach
that we see that drives a lot ofthese problems.
It's somebody else's problemtomorrow, as long as I've done
my job.
Alison (49:27):
Correct.
Sure.
Paul (49:29):
you know, but we can all make that positive difference in
our own way I've.
Alison, I could probably, wecould probably do this for like
3 or 4 hours and I'd, still behere asking you questions, so
like, I, do need to, I need todraw the episode to a close, but
I, would love to have you comeback at some point.
But before I do that, I've gotan unconventional question for
you, which I've never asked anyguest before, but i'm inspired
(49:52):
by the, conversation that we'vehad
Alison (49:54):
oh, I'm honored.
Paul (49:55):
as a child.
What was your favorite boardgame and why?
Alison (49:58):
I loved, oh.
What's that game?
Twister.
I love Twister.
Twister was really great.
Are you familiar with Twister?
You.
Yeah.
So I love Twister.
It was like, so I can, I countthat as a board game because I
mean, you get in all these likecrazy.
Paul (50:16):
I will give you it.
Alison (50:17):
Okay.
Yeah.
i asked you an
Paul (50:18):
unconventional question.
You give me an unconventionalanswer to the unconventional
question.
Sweet.
We will live with that, right?
Alison (50:23):
Say it whisper say it.
You can see I don't follow therules.
I could say could it also be Idid like the card.
I, know it's not a board game, Imean.
Listen, I played Monopolybefore, so you know, of course I
love Monopoly.
that's a great game.
But, I have to say, probably oneof the most fun I had is playing
Twister.
'cause it was of course,'causeit's a group, you know, it's a,
(50:47):
group game and everyone gets alllike twisted up and, I don't
know, it's just kind of fun.
Paul (50:52):
I love it.
I love it.
Alison, you've been anabsolutely fabulous guest.
Thank you so much for your timethis evening.
I really do appreciate
Alison (50:58):
Oh, Paul, thank you.
It has been an absolute honorand thank you so much for
inviting me on your podcast.
I've enjoyed every moment of it.
Paul (51:07):
You are more than welcome, and we will, like I said, we'll
have you back'cause I've,thoroughly enjoyed the chat and
there's so much more we can diveinto.
I.
If you are watching along athome and you've, thoroughly
enjoyed the conversation.
Have a look in the show notes'cause all of Alison links will
be in there.
So if you wanna contact Alison,you wanna find out a bit more
about Unconvention, youabsolutely do that.
If you want a podcast and, givethat a subscribe to follow,
(51:28):
please do.
Because I'm a big fan of all ofour guests who have their own
podcasts.
We need to spread the word aboutgood podcast'cause God knows is
enough poor quality stuff outthere that's just bland.
If you've listened to thisepisode, you're gonna know that
Alison's would be anything.
But, thank you listeners,watchers at home for, coming
along and watching this episodeas ever.
(51:49):
you have any ideas for guests,anybody you'd like to see on the
show and topics you'd likecovered, please drop me a line,
let me know.
But please, above all and elsegive us a subscribe and a
follow.
Thank you very much and I'll seeyou next week all and else.
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