April 23, 2025 • 31 mins
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In this week’s episode of MarketPulse: Pros and Pioneers, we’re joined by Ivonne Kinser – marketing innovator, author, and rebellious thinker who knows how to shake things up in the world of creativity and business. Ivonne is the bestselling author of ‘THINK’, a book that dives deep into the science of creativity and the power of unconventional thinking.
In this episode, Ivonne explores how rebellious thinking fuels true marketing innovation. From her insights on why traditional brainstorming needs a rethink, to how the brain’s natural wiring influences creativity, she shares actionable ideas for fostering a culture of innovation. You’ll hear about her career-defining moments, lessons learned from serendipitous opportunities at American Airlines, and how curiosity is the secret ingredient to staying ahead in today’s competitive market.
Ready to redefine how you approach creativity in business? This conversation is a must-watch for marketers, business leaders, and creative minds looking to think differently and drive meaningful change.
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Show Links:
📚 Connect with Ivonne Kinser on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/ivonnekinser/
🖥️ Vantage Creative Group: https://bit.ly/46bSHfe
📖 Ivonne's Book - 'THINK': Available on Amazon and Audible
🌐 Find Out More About Hoplark: https://www.hoplark.com
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Paul (00:00):
Hello and welcome back for another episode of MarketPulse
(00:02):
Pros and Pioneers.
This week I'm really excited tobe joined by Ivonne Kinser.
Hi Ivonne, how are you?
Ivonne (00:09):
Hi Paul, how are you?
Thank you for having me.
Paul (00:13):
That's fantastic.
Ladies and gentlemen, if you'rewatching along on the show,
we've had some amazing guestsover the last year.
Ivonne is true market androyalty and I will explain why
in a moment.
I'm very privileged to have youon the show today.
Really excited to dig a littlebit deeper.
So this is a little bit of anout of the ordinary episode for
us because of your level ofexpertise across lots of
(00:33):
different industries.
I want to run this as a, as abit of a special edition episode
and, and really dig into yourknowledge a little bit.
Without further ado, just a bitof background for Ivonne, for
anybody who doesn't know who sheis.
Ivonne is the Chief MarketingOfficer at Hoplark, which is a
disruptive brand redefining thebeverage space in an emerging
(00:53):
category.
She's also the CEO and founderof Vantage Creative Group, where
she and her team developmarketing, innovation, and tech
driven growth strategies.
As the former head of marketingfor Avocados from Mexico, she
led the brand's digitaltransformation, earning it
recognition as one of theworld's most innovative brands
(01:16):
by Fast Company.
She authored the creativitybook, Think.
I will put the notes in with theshow description so that you can
find that.
And became the first Latina toreceive the DFW AMA Marketing
Lifetime Achievement Award.
Amazing, amazing career.
Ivonne (01:38):
Thank you.
Paul (01:39):
Ivonne's renowned for her bold and creative marketing
approaches and continues to pushboundaries and redefine industry
standards.
But 23 years ago, and I lovethis, 23 years ago, Ivonne
walked into the building of herdream job, resume in hand, and
just two weeks later she wasmanaging the advertising account
for the largest airline onearth, across 20 Latin American
(02:02):
countries.
And went on to spearheadAmerican Airlines very first
digital marketing effort in thatregion.
I don't even know where to startwith all of that Ivonne, that is
an amazing career, that is anamazing career.
Um, first up, what was themotivation behind writing the
book,'Think', from yourperspective?
Ivonne (02:22):
I had a lot of thinking behind the concept of
creativity.
I lived in an industry that iscreated by default, which is
marketing and advertising.
However, I noticed thatsometimes a lot of people within
the industry, even Misunderstandcreativity as a, their, the
(02:46):
first misunderstanding is thatthere's people that is more
creative by nature and othersthat are less creative.
That's, that's not truth.
It's the way that how weapproach the notion of
creativity.
The first thing is just how Howdo we believe in creativity?
So I started digging andresearching and understanding
(03:09):
and learning as a creativeperson myself.
When I start noticing thatpeople will, way before, years
ago, people start telling methat you are very creative.
I always, I have a say that,that is that the fish doesn't
know that it's wet.
So you think that everybody elsethinks the same way that you
(03:31):
think.
So that was very intriguing tome and I wanted to understand
why they think that and andwondering, they, they don't see
the same connections that I see.
So that led me in a, in a longpath of researching and
understanding the creativitythrough my perspective, through
others perspective, and throughthe research perspective.
(03:54):
And And I felt at some pointthat I have so much to say and
so much to share.
My book is not a, I'm not adoctor.
I'm not a neurologist.
So it's not from that point ofview, although I know enough
through the research that I havedone, but.
But it's more a philosophicalapproach to creativity,
(04:14):
understanding the concept, notonly of creativity, but all the
areas around creativity, likecritical thinking risk taking.
They so many things that arearound creativity.
that allows those great ideasthat we value so much.
Paul (04:32):
let's rewind just a little bit then, by your definition
then.
What is your definition ofcreativity?
What does creativity mean to youas a person?
Ivonne (04:43):
I say first that I'm not a neurologist, but I understand
the neurological process.
It is a neurological process.
We are all equipped to becreative.
Our brain is equipped and wiredto be creative.
It's a matter of we let It ornot.
So we have different areas inthe brain.
(05:05):
We have the prefrontal cortex,where the decisions are made,
information is gathered andunderstood.
And then we have other areasthat manage other type of
activity, like for example,another one that holds the
memories, another ones thatunderstand patterns.
(05:25):
So for a creative idea tohappen, All those areas have to
connect.
So there's connectors in thebrain, the neurons that connect
all those areas.
And it's in those connections,the new information with the
memories, with the intuition,with the ability to visualize
(05:45):
patterns.
When those connections happen,it's when creativity happens,
with the great ideas happen.
What we need to do is notbrainstorming.
Brainstorming is a great tool,but if we really, really want to
develop creativity in our teams,what we have to do is to give
them the space to calm the brainso that those connections can
(06:08):
happen because it has beenscientifically proof that when
the the brain is come that.
area is more active.
So that's, that's the first stepis, in a lot of advertising
agencies, they, they put peopleon tables and put tables and
maybe they do it because of atrend and it's cool.
Maybe somebody understood, but Ithink that the underlying
(06:31):
motivation is that it's just tocalm the brain.
So those ideas can happen.
So there's not such a thing of,let's be creative or let's come
up with a creative solution forthese.
Let's get all together and thinkit doesn't happen that way.
So many companies wants to paymillions of well, maybe not
millions, but thousands ofdollars in consultants to come
(06:54):
and do that type of sections.
When the reality is that is muchsimpler than that, it's just
giving the mind the space to becreative.
And not all the other things,right?
There's exercises and practiceand all that, but the core is
really that.
And anybody who trains and givesthemselves the space to put
(07:20):
their brain in that situationcan be creative.
Paul (07:24):
And do you think that companies lose sight of that and
Try and get their money's worthout of their employees too much
by keeping them so busy thatthey can't be creative, that
they don't have time or space tobe, to take that step away and
just think clearly about what itis that they're trying to do
because we're always trying totwist that last screw to get the
most value out of our employees,right?
Ivonne (07:46):
Yeah.
and alignments and brainstormingsensation and processes.
None of that iscounterproductive.
It's just, it's just overwhelmedthe brain.
And the other thing is that oneof the one of the things that
like kill creativity is thestress.
(08:07):
So the more we pressure ourteams to come with a creative
idea, the less creative theybecome.
And I still haven't heard the.
When a company say, you knowwhat, just take a walk in
nature, go take an hour, don'tthink about anything, leave your
phone on the office and thencome back and think about this
(08:27):
problem that we're trying tosolve.
It's not happening.
That kind of things.
Those kind of breakthrough ideasnever happened inside an office.
It just happened.
That's why, people misunderstandthat, Oh, I had a hot moment
when I was taking a shower.
It's because your mind is calm.
So if we have more of thatfreedom, Then we have more of
(08:50):
those great ideas, but nobody'sdoing it that way.
I don't want to be so like, Idon't want to say never or
nobody, but most people don't,don't look at it that way.
Paul (09:02):
prime example, if, my son has been learning Spanish on an
app for a year and a half But ifI ask him to speak some Spanish
to someone, he can't do it.
He won't do it.
But I know when I watch him onthe app, he knows loads of
Spanish.
He's very impressive.
And I remember being exactly thesame with languages and lots of
different things when I was akid.
(09:22):
You don't want to perform whenyou're asked to.
It has to come to you.
Ivonne (09:27):
It's exciting that what you say is very interesting
because again, you give yourbrain a mission.
So when you are in a situationwhere you need to respond, your
brain is busy understanding theexternal stimulus, decoding the
external stimulus and finding ananswer.
So if you are, if you had yourbrain busy, Doing that, then it
(09:50):
doesn't have the energy just tocreate, to connect, to make new
connections that eventuallyleads to new ideas.
So it's just two differentfunctions.
And if we overwhelm the brainwith some, of these functions,
we don't give the space to, tocome up with the creative,
creative ideas.
Paul (10:12):
So when you're looking for new team members or people that
you'd like to be working with,do you find that there's a lack
of creativity in younger, isthere an age relevance to
creativity?
Are older people more likely tobe creative thinkers?
Are younger people more likelyto be creative thinkers?
Is there any kind of Patternthat you see, cause I, the
(10:34):
reason I ask, and I've got a bigbugbearer around creativity in
schools, and I think we drum outof kids, children, their
creativity, and we push themtowards an academic route.
And I, I, there's a, that's awhole other episode on its own.
But I'm curious to see what yourexperience has been working in
that industry and trying tofoster people who are creative
(10:55):
thinkers.
Do you see any alignment withthat?
Ivonne (10:59):
I don't think, I don't think that it's a matter of age.
Interestingly, I think this isan opinion based on the
information that I have and howI connect that information.
I think that it has to be with alittle bit of rebelliousness.
And, and let me, let me explain.
Let me give you the context.
There was a very famousexperiment research actually
(11:23):
done by NASA, where they hire aresearcher because they wanted
to understand creativity and tobe able to hire the most
creative people that help themto solve the most difficult
problems.
What they, they start Measuringcreativity.
Creativity in their definitionis the way to solve problems in
(11:47):
novel ways.
They started measuring that fromkids all the way to adults.
And what they found is that attwo years old, 99 percent of the
children are creative geniuses.
When it goes to 12 year olds,that goes to 30%, then 15 year
(12:08):
olds is 12%.
When we get to adults, only 2percent are considered creative
geniuses.
It's not because your creativityat a neurological level
decreased, but it's aboutsociety by judging your ideas
giving you or training you toaccept one information instead
(12:32):
of using your critical thinking.
So all those things are modelingthe way you approach creativity
and you get to a point that youhave, you have what it takes to
be a very creative person, justis dormant.
So that's why My conclusion isthat someone that is more
rebellious tend to hold on morefirmly to their ideas and their
(12:58):
conviction that.
their ideas that come from theirmind have value.
And those are the people thatstay more creative.
Paul (13:09):
That, you've described something that I find really
interesting because I'm a veryrebellious person.
That's why I don't work incorporate anymore, Ivonne, and
why I'm quite happy to berunning my own business.
I wonder though there's adangerous aspect to that as well
for a business as well.
Somebody who's rebellious andcreative.
(13:30):
There's a lot of risk associatedwith that.
So what's your approach tomanaging that risk taking
environment where you wantpeople to be going out and being
creative, but at the same timeyou need to shield them from
making decisions that are,let's, let's call it too
creative or too out there,right?
Ivonne (13:48):
That's a great question.
That's a great question.
I love it because that's anothermisconception is that creativity
means good ideas.
Not necessarily.
Creativity means connectionsthat are novel, novel
connections.
New, didn't exist before, but itcan be terrible.
Someone very creative can, cancome up with a terrible idea.
(14:10):
So it's a matter of, How do youconnect that idea to a strategy,
but even that before the idea,when you have that foundation,
we talk about the differentareas of the brain, previous
knowledge, experience,intuition, when that base is
solid, when you have enoughInformation and of knowledge of
(14:32):
the industry where you're tryingor attempting to create, that
gives you a really goodfoundation.
The other thing is how youapproach that moment of
creativity is with, you need toapproach it with the goal of
finding a solution to a problemthat you have.
Random ideas, I have an idea,let's do this, maybe cool, those
(14:55):
are terrible ideas, but whenyou're really know.
You know your area, you knowyour industry.
If you're in marketing, you knowyour brand and you are really,
really clear on the problem thatyou have and the solution that
you're trying to find, and thenstart the connection, start the
creative process.
process, retrieving information,retrieving data that you already
(15:19):
have, stimulus that you'rereading in that moment.
If you feed your brain with allthat, those foundations, then
when the connection happen, it'sgoing to be a good idea.
And a good idea doesn't meanthat it has to be cool.
It means that it's going tosolve a problem in a real way.
For example, in advertisingagencies, you have a, the
(15:43):
strategic planning team, andthen you have the creative team
and they work together.
It's because they offer thestrategic planning team, offer
the creative team with thatfoundation.
But sometimes, the same, Thesame people that is within the
creative team can have thatfoundation.
It's just another layer, layerof strategy.
But when creativity and strategyare together, typically the
(16:08):
ideas should be good.
Bad ideas is those that aredisconnected from a real purpose
to find a solution.
Paul (16:16):
For the longest time, I always branded myself as being
not creative.
I didn't see myself as acreative person.
And it's only in the last fouror five years that I've I found
that creativity but not where Ithought it would be and I think
this is a common challenge for alot of people is that I only
ever hear the word creativitymentioned alongside art and
(16:39):
drama and music and graphicaldesign and all of the really
obvious visual and auditorystudies that you can take part
in.
But I actually found mycreativity is in connecting
technology together andconnecting people together and
I've come to reframe that alittle bit in my mind but that
was a really hard long journeyto go on to give myself that
(17:02):
freedom to say yes I am actuallycreative just in a very
different way to the traditionalsense.
Is that something you see a lotin as well?
Ivonne (17:11):
Yeah, I love to ask you this, but what made you think it
was a message somebody told you?
What made you think at somepoint that you were not
creative?
Paul (17:22):
Because I don't enjoy a lot of the creative, the typical
creative works.
So again, I think just becauseI'd heard the word creativity
around art, for example, I'm aterrible artist.
Partly because I never practiceit, right?
then there's the other side ofthings, is, is it because,
because I don't enjoy it, Idon't practice it, therefore I'm
(17:43):
not very good at it, so itbecomes a self fulfilling
prophecy.
But actually that, creativityfor me is much easier channeled
into things like technology,Because I can just see it
without having to, I've donethat practice because I enjoyed
it when I was a kid.
Ivonne (17:58):
Yeah, yeah, totally.
So that is leading us to a veryinteresting path, because it's
exactly what you said.
It was the wrong definition of,or the wrong perception of
creativity.
Anybody can, an accountant canbe creative, a doctor can be
creative, a lawyer can becreative.
Because remember, it's about,enabling those connections in
(18:22):
the brain to connect newinformation with all
information, with patternrecognition.
So you were not a good creativein the art space because you
didn't have the foundations inthat space.
But let's say if you are in alawyer and you are a forum in
that space, and you know theconstitutions and the laws and
(18:46):
et cetera, what do you thinkthat there's great lawyers?
It's because they are able toconnect, to find, they remember
a case that happened in whateveryear, they retrieve that
information, they find new ways,they, new tools in the
constitution and, and createcases and present cases in ways
that are, that set a precedent.
(19:08):
So that's creativity within law.
So it happened in everyterritory, but we need to erase
that idea that creativity isjust coming up with great ideas
in the art.
space.
It's just learn to connect,connect all areas of our brain
so we can produce solutions.
For whatever problem that we'retrying to solve.
Paul (19:31):
I think it's a much more wholesome definition of
creativity than when I wasgrowing up, that's for sure.
I think things have moved on alot and I'd like to think that,
if most of the time that there'sa much better attitude and, and
framing of creativity in schoolsin the modern day than, than
there was 30, 40 years ago.
how much impact does creativityhave in your guiding values and
(19:52):
your decision making then?
Ivonne (19:53):
I think that, interestingly, I think that it
was the other way around.
I think my values led mycreative path.
And I am very introspective.
I think that self awareness isone of the best gifts that you
can give to yourself.
So I really, I have worked toknow myself.
(20:14):
I story my values.
I understand.
So I think that from the freedomvalue, it came that need to
express myself, to findsolutions to any problem that I
have, whether it's in thepersonal life or professional
life.
(20:36):
Solving problems set you free.
Set you free from the constraintof having to live with something
that you don't have a solutionfor.
And that happens every day inour professional life.
We have to, as a professional,it doesn't matter what you do.
But you have to solve problemsevery single day.
(20:57):
And if you don't solve them,you're trapped within the
problem.
So my value of freedom led me tofirst to be very curious and
explore different options.
Curiosity helps you to gaininformation and knowledge in a
very fast way because you'realways looking what is new, what
(21:19):
is there, what is available andthat stays in your brain.
So when you receive new stimulusand you allow those connections,
You really have a true, rich,creative output.
Paul (21:31):
So then taking those, those kind of guiding values,
the decision making, what we'vetalked about in terms of
creativity, how do you apply allof that to create a culture of
innovation within your teams orthe projects that you're working
on?
Ivonne (21:45):
First of all is making sure that everybody understands
this that we're talking aboutbecause a lot of people come
with that misconception, Oh, I'mnot creative.
Or maybe, maybe everybody can becreative, but maybe you don't
like it.
Maybe you have other skills thatare stronger.
That's possible.
Maybe your brain is not, doesn'tfind that that's stimulated with
(22:12):
finding connections andsolutions.
Maybe you are the type of.
You'd like to accomplish things,which is the type of the brain
of project managers.
For example, they findsatisfaction in completing
tasks.
And that's great.
You need that.
You need all of that.
I don't think that a team with ateam with a team.
Everybody being a creative let'ssay lover, to call it somehow,
(22:37):
will work.
You need the people that enjoybeing creative and creating, and
you need the people that enjoyexecuting those ideas and make
it happen.
You need both.
But if For those individualsthat find joy in creating, the
first thing is to, for them tounderstand they can be creative
(23:00):
and how to motivate themselvesand how to allow their brains to
create those connections andgiving them the space to do
Paul (23:10):
So then to Zoom out a little bit.
So we've talked in depth aboutcreativity.
We've talked about how we'dmanage that within teams and,
and projects.
Looking back at your career,you've, you've achieved some
fantastic awards andachievements.
What's, what is the definingmoment in your career where you
(23:32):
realized that you'd gotten towhere you wanted to achieve when
you'd, you'd reached yourpotential that you saw in
yourself?
Ivonne (23:39):
I think that the greatest potential I haven't
accomplished it yet.
If I will, then that means Iwouldn't keep, progressing.
So I always think that the bestis ahead.
But I think that at the definingmoment in my career, was with
America, working for theAmerican Airlines brand.
(24:01):
It was in the year of 2001 andthe internet was in the early
stages.
Digital marketing was in thevery early stages.
I saw the opportunity to developthe digital presence.
For American Airlines across 20countries in Latin America,
(24:21):
there was none before.
I didn't know anything aboutdigital marketing, but I saw the
opportunity to first explore,learn.
You learn by doing, and it wasvery hard in that time.
You wouldn't have that.
Found a digital marketingexpert, they were like, pretty
(24:42):
much nobody knew about it.
So it was a great opportunityfor me to learn that.
And, and I, I lead that.
I led the, the process that fordeveloping the pres, the digital
presence of American Airlines inLatin America.
I think that moment, thatproject, which was a gigantic
project, said the rest of mycareer, because I fall in love
(25:06):
with digital.
And up to today, you cannot talkabout digital, you cannot talk
about marketing if you don'ttalk about digital marketing.
And the opportunity that I hadto learn from when web, digital
marketing was websites andbanners.
all the way to all thecomplexities that exist today,
(25:28):
like a marketing technologyecosystem of over 10, 000
platforms and tools.
And I saw it all throughout thetime.
I'm very curious.
So I thought, not only I followit, I follow it.
I started it.
I understood every single step.
I think that, that really defineMy career.
Paul (25:47):
What was that first conversation like when you
walked into American Airlinesoffice with your, with your
resume in your hand?
Because, obviously, less thantwo weeks later you had the job,
right?
What did you say to anybody whowas out there and thinking, I
know who I want to work for, Iknow what I want to do.
How did you get that result thatyou wanted?
Ivonne (26:07):
That's a, that's a super interesting story.
Funny, but also I thinkencouraging for anyone to take
the step.
I, I didn't go for a specificinterview or for a specific job.
Actually, this was the agency ofGlobal Agency for American
Airlines in Dallas, TemerlyMcLean.
(26:28):
I just knew that they wereopening a new department and I
went Ask him to talk to anyonein that department.
I figured they are opening a newdepartment.
They are needing people.
So I went and asked, Can I talkto anyone in this department?
Of course, they say, Do you havean appointment?
And then I don't think that youcan see anyone.
(26:49):
Do you have an appointment, etc.
But I was so determined,especially when I knew I was so
determined, especially when Iknew I was going to be in a lot
of trouble.
It was the best agency in theregion, the building was
spectacular, and I thought, I'mnot leaving.
I'm not leaving until I can talkto anyone.
pretty confident of my abilitiesto communicate to anyone and to
(27:10):
show myself.
I stay there with it's when luckand opportunity come together.
So the receptionist, after 30minutes, told me like, Hey, if
what you're looking is theopportunities here, I don't
think that you're going to talkto anyone today, but here's a, a
list, and she handed over apiece of paper with all these
(27:32):
depositions that are available.
And when I read that one, theywere looking for someone for
American Airlines that wasbilingual because it needed to
manage Latin American, the LatinAmerican region.
And we experiencing LatinAmerican markets, advertising,
et cetera.
So I thought, you This is me.
They're looking for me.
(27:52):
What is serendipity, right?
And then I told her like, Hey,forget, I don't, I don't care
about not talking to anyone, butI want to leave my resume for
this position.
And yeah, two weeks later I wasworking there and that was my
next six years for the next sixyears.
Paul (28:09):
What an amazing story and fantastic self belief to be able
to do that and have theconfidence that you would.
And I firmly believe that wemake our own luck as much as we
receive luck, right?
I know that if you can draw on awall and draw a door, sometimes
when you knock on that door itwill open and you've got to be
(28:29):
brave enough to draw the doorand believe in it enough that it
will.
So fantastic story Ivonne.
It's been fantastic to have youalong to the show today and I
honestly, I could sit here andask you questions for the next
five or six hours.
It's, it's some fascinatinganswers that you've come back
with.
If anybody who's listening alongwants to find out a bit more,
what's the best place for themto find out more about yourself
(28:50):
or for any of the businessesthat you're working with?
Ivonne (28:54):
The best place is LinkedIn, Ivonne Kinser.
That's my, I'm the only one onLinkedIn.
If you like what you heard aboutmy book, you can find it on
Amazon.
I'll make sure that's in thelink in the comments so nobody
has to go looking around for it.
But, thank you very much foryour time Ivonne.
It's been a privilege to haveyou along for the show.
Hopefully you've enjoyed it aswell.
(29:15):
Thank you.
for having take care.
Bye bye.
I'll see you next week onMarketpulse: Pros Pioneers
Hello and welcome back for another episode of MarketPulse
(00:02):
Pros and Pioneers.
This week I'm really excited tobe joined by Ivonne Kinser.
Hi Ivonne, how are you?
Ivonne (00:09):
Hi Paul, how are you?
Thank you for having me.
Paul (00:13):
That's fantastic.
Ladies and gentlemen, if you'rewatching along on the show,
we've had some amazing guestsover the last year.
Ivonne is true market androyalty and I will explain why
in a moment.
I'm very privileged to have youon the show today.
Really excited to dig a littlebit deeper.
So this is a little bit of anout of the ordinary episode for
us because of your level ofexpertise across lots of
(00:33):
different industries.
I want to run this as a, as abit of a special edition episode
and, and really dig into yourknowledge a little bit.
Without further ado, just a bitof background for Ivonne, for
anybody who doesn't know who sheis.
Ivonne is the Chief MarketingOfficer at Hoplark, which is a
disruptive brand redefining thebeverage space in an emerging
(00:53):
category.
She's also the CEO and founderof Vantage Creative Group, where
she and her team developmarketing, innovation, and tech
driven growth strategies.
As the former head of marketingfor Avocados from Mexico, she
led the brand's digitaltransformation, earning it
recognition as one of theworld's most innovative brands
(01:16):
by Fast Company.
She authored the creativitybook, Think.
I will put the notes in with theshow description so that you can
find that.
And became the first Latina toreceive the DFW AMA Marketing
Lifetime Achievement Award.
Amazing, amazing career.
Ivonne (01:38):
Thank you.
Paul (01:39):
Ivonne's renowned for her bold and creative marketing
approaches and continues to pushboundaries and redefine industry
standards.
But 23 years ago, and I lovethis, 23 years ago, Ivonne
walked into the building of herdream job, resume in hand, and
just two weeks later she wasmanaging the advertising account
for the largest airline onearth, across 20 Latin American
(02:02):
countries.
And went on to spearheadAmerican Airlines very first
digital marketing effort in thatregion.
I don't even know where to startwith all of that Ivonne, that is
an amazing career, that is anamazing career.
Um, first up, what was themotivation behind writing the
book,'Think', from yourperspective?
Ivonne (02:22):
I had a lot of thinking behind the concept of
creativity.
I lived in an industry that iscreated by default, which is
marketing and advertising.
However, I noticed thatsometimes a lot of people within
the industry, even Misunderstandcreativity as a, their, the
(02:46):
first misunderstanding is thatthere's people that is more
creative by nature and othersthat are less creative.
That's, that's not truth.
It's the way that how weapproach the notion of
creativity.
The first thing is just how Howdo we believe in creativity?
So I started digging andresearching and understanding
(03:09):
and learning as a creativeperson myself.
When I start noticing thatpeople will, way before, years
ago, people start telling methat you are very creative.
I always, I have a say that,that is that the fish doesn't
know that it's wet.
So you think that everybody elsethinks the same way that you
(03:31):
think.
So that was very intriguing tome and I wanted to understand
why they think that and andwondering, they, they don't see
the same connections that I see.
So that led me in a, in a longpath of researching and
understanding the creativitythrough my perspective, through
others perspective, and throughthe research perspective.
(03:54):
And And I felt at some pointthat I have so much to say and
so much to share.
My book is not a, I'm not adoctor.
I'm not a neurologist.
So it's not from that point ofview, although I know enough
through the research that I havedone, but.
But it's more a philosophicalapproach to creativity,
(04:14):
understanding the concept, notonly of creativity, but all the
areas around creativity, likecritical thinking risk taking.
They so many things that arearound creativity.
that allows those great ideasthat we value so much.
Paul (04:32):
let's rewind just a little bit then, by your definition
then.
What is your definition ofcreativity?
What does creativity mean to youas a person?
Ivonne (04:43):
I say first that I'm not a neurologist, but I understand
the neurological process.
It is a neurological process.
We are all equipped to becreative.
Our brain is equipped and wiredto be creative.
It's a matter of we let It ornot.
So we have different areas inthe brain.
(05:05):
We have the prefrontal cortex,where the decisions are made,
information is gathered andunderstood.
And then we have other areasthat manage other type of
activity, like for example,another one that holds the
memories, another ones thatunderstand patterns.
(05:25):
So for a creative idea tohappen, All those areas have to
connect.
So there's connectors in thebrain, the neurons that connect
all those areas.
And it's in those connections,the new information with the
memories, with the intuition,with the ability to visualize
(05:45):
patterns.
When those connections happen,it's when creativity happens,
with the great ideas happen.
What we need to do is notbrainstorming.
Brainstorming is a great tool,but if we really, really want to
develop creativity in our teams,what we have to do is to give
them the space to calm the brainso that those connections can
(06:08):
happen because it has beenscientifically proof that when
the the brain is come that.
area is more active.
So that's, that's the first stepis, in a lot of advertising
agencies, they, they put peopleon tables and put tables and
maybe they do it because of atrend and it's cool.
Maybe somebody understood, but Ithink that the underlying
(06:31):
motivation is that it's just tocalm the brain.
So those ideas can happen.
So there's not such a thing of,let's be creative or let's come
up with a creative solution forthese.
Let's get all together and thinkit doesn't happen that way.
So many companies wants to paymillions of well, maybe not
millions, but thousands ofdollars in consultants to come
(06:54):
and do that type of sections.
When the reality is that is muchsimpler than that, it's just
giving the mind the space to becreative.
And not all the other things,right?
There's exercises and practiceand all that, but the core is
really that.
And anybody who trains and givesthemselves the space to put
(07:20):
their brain in that situationcan be creative.
Paul (07:24):
And do you think that companies lose sight of that and
Try and get their money's worthout of their employees too much
by keeping them so busy thatthey can't be creative, that
they don't have time or space tobe, to take that step away and
just think clearly about what itis that they're trying to do
because we're always trying totwist that last screw to get the
most value out of our employees,right?
Ivonne (07:46):
Yeah.
and alignments and brainstormingsensation and processes.
None of that iscounterproductive.
It's just, it's just overwhelmedthe brain.
And the other thing is that oneof the one of the things that
like kill creativity is thestress.
(08:07):
So the more we pressure ourteams to come with a creative
idea, the less creative theybecome.
And I still haven't heard the.
When a company say, you knowwhat, just take a walk in
nature, go take an hour, don'tthink about anything, leave your
phone on the office and thencome back and think about this
(08:27):
problem that we're trying tosolve.
It's not happening.
That kind of things.
Those kind of breakthrough ideasnever happened inside an office.
It just happened.
That's why, people misunderstandthat, Oh, I had a hot moment
when I was taking a shower.
It's because your mind is calm.
So if we have more of thatfreedom, Then we have more of
(08:50):
those great ideas, but nobody'sdoing it that way.
I don't want to be so like, Idon't want to say never or
nobody, but most people don't,don't look at it that way.
Paul (09:02):
prime example, if, my son has been learning Spanish on an
app for a year and a half But ifI ask him to speak some Spanish
to someone, he can't do it.
He won't do it.
But I know when I watch him onthe app, he knows loads of
Spanish.
He's very impressive.
And I remember being exactly thesame with languages and lots of
different things when I was akid.
(09:22):
You don't want to perform whenyou're asked to.
It has to come to you.
Ivonne (09:27):
It's exciting that what you say is very interesting
because again, you give yourbrain a mission.
So when you are in a situationwhere you need to respond, your
brain is busy understanding theexternal stimulus, decoding the
external stimulus and finding ananswer.
So if you are, if you had yourbrain busy, Doing that, then it
(09:50):
doesn't have the energy just tocreate, to connect, to make new
connections that eventuallyleads to new ideas.
So it's just two differentfunctions.
And if we overwhelm the brainwith some, of these functions,
we don't give the space to, tocome up with the creative,
creative ideas.
Paul (10:12):
So when you're looking for new team members or people that
you'd like to be working with,do you find that there's a lack
of creativity in younger, isthere an age relevance to
creativity?
Are older people more likely tobe creative thinkers?
Are younger people more likelyto be creative thinkers?
Is there any kind of Patternthat you see, cause I, the
(10:34):
reason I ask, and I've got a bigbugbearer around creativity in
schools, and I think we drum outof kids, children, their
creativity, and we push themtowards an academic route.
And I, I, there's a, that's awhole other episode on its own.
But I'm curious to see what yourexperience has been working in
that industry and trying tofoster people who are creative
(10:55):
thinkers.
Do you see any alignment withthat?
Ivonne (10:59):
I don't think, I don't think that it's a matter of age.
Interestingly, I think this isan opinion based on the
information that I have and howI connect that information.
I think that it has to be with alittle bit of rebelliousness.
And, and let me, let me explain.
Let me give you the context.
There was a very famousexperiment research actually
(11:23):
done by NASA, where they hire aresearcher because they wanted
to understand creativity and tobe able to hire the most
creative people that help themto solve the most difficult
problems.
What they, they start Measuringcreativity.
Creativity in their definitionis the way to solve problems in
(11:47):
novel ways.
They started measuring that fromkids all the way to adults.
And what they found is that attwo years old, 99 percent of the
children are creative geniuses.
When it goes to 12 year olds,that goes to 30%, then 15 year
(12:08):
olds is 12%.
When we get to adults, only 2percent are considered creative
geniuses.
It's not because your creativityat a neurological level
decreased, but it's aboutsociety by judging your ideas
giving you or training you toaccept one information instead
(12:32):
of using your critical thinking.
So all those things are modelingthe way you approach creativity
and you get to a point that youhave, you have what it takes to
be a very creative person, justis dormant.
So that's why My conclusion isthat someone that is more
rebellious tend to hold on morefirmly to their ideas and their
(12:58):
conviction that.
their ideas that come from theirmind have value.
And those are the people thatstay more creative.
Paul (13:09):
That, you've described something that I find really
interesting because I'm a veryrebellious person.
That's why I don't work incorporate anymore, Ivonne, and
why I'm quite happy to berunning my own business.
I wonder though there's adangerous aspect to that as well
for a business as well.
Somebody who's rebellious andcreative.
(13:30):
There's a lot of risk associatedwith that.
So what's your approach tomanaging that risk taking
environment where you wantpeople to be going out and being
creative, but at the same timeyou need to shield them from
making decisions that are,let's, let's call it too
creative or too out there,right?
Ivonne (13:48):
That's a great question.
That's a great question.
I love it because that's anothermisconception is that creativity
means good ideas.
Not necessarily.
Creativity means connectionsthat are novel, novel
connections.
New, didn't exist before, but itcan be terrible.
Someone very creative can, cancome up with a terrible idea.
(14:10):
So it's a matter of, How do youconnect that idea to a strategy,
but even that before the idea,when you have that foundation,
we talk about the differentareas of the brain, previous
knowledge, experience,intuition, when that base is
solid, when you have enoughInformation and of knowledge of
(14:32):
the industry where you're tryingor attempting to create, that
gives you a really goodfoundation.
The other thing is how youapproach that moment of
creativity is with, you need toapproach it with the goal of
finding a solution to a problemthat you have.
Random ideas, I have an idea,let's do this, maybe cool, those
(14:55):
are terrible ideas, but whenyou're really know.
You know your area, you knowyour industry.
If you're in marketing, you knowyour brand and you are really,
really clear on the problem thatyou have and the solution that
you're trying to find, and thenstart the connection, start the
creative process.
process, retrieving information,retrieving data that you already
(15:19):
have, stimulus that you'rereading in that moment.
If you feed your brain with allthat, those foundations, then
when the connection happen, it'sgoing to be a good idea.
And a good idea doesn't meanthat it has to be cool.
It means that it's going tosolve a problem in a real way.
For example, in advertisingagencies, you have a, the
(15:43):
strategic planning team, andthen you have the creative team
and they work together.
It's because they offer thestrategic planning team, offer
the creative team with thatfoundation.
But sometimes, the same, Thesame people that is within the
creative team can have thatfoundation.
It's just another layer, layerof strategy.
But when creativity and strategyare together, typically the
(16:08):
ideas should be good.
Bad ideas is those that aredisconnected from a real purpose
to find a solution.
Paul (16:16):
For the longest time, I always branded myself as being
not creative.
I didn't see myself as acreative person.
And it's only in the last fouror five years that I've I found
that creativity but not where Ithought it would be and I think
this is a common challenge for alot of people is that I only
ever hear the word creativitymentioned alongside art and
(16:39):
drama and music and graphicaldesign and all of the really
obvious visual and auditorystudies that you can take part
in.
But I actually found mycreativity is in connecting
technology together andconnecting people together and
I've come to reframe that alittle bit in my mind but that
was a really hard long journeyto go on to give myself that
(17:02):
freedom to say yes I am actuallycreative just in a very
different way to the traditionalsense.
Is that something you see a lotin as well?
Ivonne (17:11):
Yeah, I love to ask you this, but what made you think it
was a message somebody told you?
What made you think at somepoint that you were not
creative?
Paul (17:22):
Because I don't enjoy a lot of the creative, the typical
creative works.
So again, I think just becauseI'd heard the word creativity
around art, for example, I'm aterrible artist.
Partly because I never practiceit, right?
then there's the other side ofthings, is, is it because,
because I don't enjoy it, Idon't practice it, therefore I'm
(17:43):
not very good at it, so itbecomes a self fulfilling
prophecy.
But actually that, creativityfor me is much easier channeled
into things like technology,Because I can just see it
without having to, I've donethat practice because I enjoyed
it when I was a kid.
Ivonne (17:58):
Yeah, yeah, totally.
So that is leading us to a veryinteresting path, because it's
exactly what you said.
It was the wrong definition of,or the wrong perception of
creativity.
Anybody can, an accountant canbe creative, a doctor can be
creative, a lawyer can becreative.
Because remember, it's about,enabling those connections in
(18:22):
the brain to connect newinformation with all
information, with patternrecognition.
So you were not a good creativein the art space because you
didn't have the foundations inthat space.
But let's say if you are in alawyer and you are a forum in
that space, and you know theconstitutions and the laws and
(18:46):
et cetera, what do you thinkthat there's great lawyers?
It's because they are able toconnect, to find, they remember
a case that happened in whateveryear, they retrieve that
information, they find new ways,they, new tools in the
constitution and, and createcases and present cases in ways
that are, that set a precedent.
(19:08):
So that's creativity within law.
So it happened in everyterritory, but we need to erase
that idea that creativity isjust coming up with great ideas
in the art.
space.
It's just learn to connect,connect all areas of our brain
so we can produce solutions.
For whatever problem that we'retrying to solve.
Paul (19:31):
I think it's a much more wholesome definition of
creativity than when I wasgrowing up, that's for sure.
I think things have moved on alot and I'd like to think that,
if most of the time that there'sa much better attitude and, and
framing of creativity in schoolsin the modern day than, than
there was 30, 40 years ago.
how much impact does creativityhave in your guiding values and
(19:52):
your decision making then?
Ivonne (19:53):
I think that, interestingly, I think that it
was the other way around.
I think my values led mycreative path.
And I am very introspective.
I think that self awareness isone of the best gifts that you
can give to yourself.
So I really, I have worked toknow myself.
(20:14):
I story my values.
I understand.
So I think that from the freedomvalue, it came that need to
express myself, to findsolutions to any problem that I
have, whether it's in thepersonal life or professional
life.
(20:36):
Solving problems set you free.
Set you free from the constraintof having to live with something
that you don't have a solutionfor.
And that happens every day inour professional life.
We have to, as a professional,it doesn't matter what you do.
But you have to solve problemsevery single day.
(20:57):
And if you don't solve them,you're trapped within the
problem.
So my value of freedom led me tofirst to be very curious and
explore different options.
Curiosity helps you to gaininformation and knowledge in a
very fast way because you'realways looking what is new, what
(21:19):
is there, what is available andthat stays in your brain.
So when you receive new stimulusand you allow those connections,
You really have a true, rich,creative output.
Paul (21:31):
So then taking those, those kind of guiding values,
the decision making, what we'vetalked about in terms of
creativity, how do you apply allof that to create a culture of
innovation within your teams orthe projects that you're working
on?
Ivonne (21:45):
First of all is making sure that everybody understands
this that we're talking aboutbecause a lot of people come
with that misconception, Oh, I'mnot creative.
Or maybe, maybe everybody can becreative, but maybe you don't
like it.
Maybe you have other skills thatare stronger.
That's possible.
Maybe your brain is not, doesn'tfind that that's stimulated with
(22:12):
finding connections andsolutions.
Maybe you are the type of.
You'd like to accomplish things,which is the type of the brain
of project managers.
For example, they findsatisfaction in completing
tasks.
And that's great.
You need that.
You need all of that.
I don't think that a team with ateam with a team.
Everybody being a creative let'ssay lover, to call it somehow,
(22:37):
will work.
You need the people that enjoybeing creative and creating, and
you need the people that enjoyexecuting those ideas and make
it happen.
You need both.
But if For those individualsthat find joy in creating, the
first thing is to, for them tounderstand they can be creative
(23:00):
and how to motivate themselvesand how to allow their brains to
create those connections andgiving them the space to do
Paul (23:10):
So then to Zoom out a little bit.
So we've talked in depth aboutcreativity.
We've talked about how we'dmanage that within teams and,
and projects.
Looking back at your career,you've, you've achieved some
fantastic awards andachievements.
What's, what is the definingmoment in your career where you
(23:32):
realized that you'd gotten towhere you wanted to achieve when
you'd, you'd reached yourpotential that you saw in
yourself?
Ivonne (23:39):
I think that the greatest potential I haven't
accomplished it yet.
If I will, then that means Iwouldn't keep, progressing.
So I always think that the bestis ahead.
But I think that at the definingmoment in my career, was with
America, working for theAmerican Airlines brand.
(24:01):
It was in the year of 2001 andthe internet was in the early
stages.
Digital marketing was in thevery early stages.
I saw the opportunity to developthe digital presence.
For American Airlines across 20countries in Latin America,
(24:21):
there was none before.
I didn't know anything aboutdigital marketing, but I saw the
opportunity to first explore,learn.
You learn by doing, and it wasvery hard in that time.
You wouldn't have that.
Found a digital marketingexpert, they were like, pretty
(24:42):
much nobody knew about it.
So it was a great opportunityfor me to learn that.
And, and I, I lead that.
I led the, the process that fordeveloping the pres, the digital
presence of American Airlines inLatin America.
I think that moment, thatproject, which was a gigantic
project, said the rest of mycareer, because I fall in love
(25:06):
with digital.
And up to today, you cannot talkabout digital, you cannot talk
about marketing if you don'ttalk about digital marketing.
And the opportunity that I hadto learn from when web, digital
marketing was websites andbanners.
all the way to all thecomplexities that exist today,
(25:28):
like a marketing technologyecosystem of over 10, 000
platforms and tools.
And I saw it all throughout thetime.
I'm very curious.
So I thought, not only I followit, I follow it.
I started it.
I understood every single step.
I think that, that really defineMy career.
Paul (25:47):
What was that first conversation like when you
walked into American Airlinesoffice with your, with your
resume in your hand?
Because, obviously, less thantwo weeks later you had the job,
right?
What did you say to anybody whowas out there and thinking, I
know who I want to work for, Iknow what I want to do.
How did you get that result thatyou wanted?
Ivonne (26:07):
That's a, that's a super interesting story.
Funny, but also I thinkencouraging for anyone to take
the step.
I, I didn't go for a specificinterview or for a specific job.
Actually, this was the agency ofGlobal Agency for American
Airlines in Dallas, TemerlyMcLean.
(26:28):
I just knew that they wereopening a new department and I
went Ask him to talk to anyonein that department.
I figured they are opening a newdepartment.
They are needing people.
So I went and asked, Can I talkto anyone in this department?
Of course, they say, Do you havean appointment?
And then I don't think that youcan see anyone.
(26:49):
Do you have an appointment, etc.
But I was so determined,especially when I knew I was so
determined, especially when Iknew I was going to be in a lot
of trouble.
It was the best agency in theregion, the building was
spectacular, and I thought, I'mnot leaving.
I'm not leaving until I can talkto anyone.
pretty confident of my abilitiesto communicate to anyone and to
(27:10):
show myself.
I stay there with it's when luckand opportunity come together.
So the receptionist, after 30minutes, told me like, Hey, if
what you're looking is theopportunities here, I don't
think that you're going to talkto anyone today, but here's a, a
list, and she handed over apiece of paper with all these
(27:32):
depositions that are available.
And when I read that one, theywere looking for someone for
American Airlines that wasbilingual because it needed to
manage Latin American, the LatinAmerican region.
And we experiencing LatinAmerican markets, advertising,
et cetera.
So I thought, you This is me.
They're looking for me.
(27:52):
What is serendipity, right?
And then I told her like, Hey,forget, I don't, I don't care
about not talking to anyone, butI want to leave my resume for
this position.
And yeah, two weeks later I wasworking there and that was my
next six years for the next sixyears.
Paul (28:09):
What an amazing story and fantastic self belief to be able
to do that and have theconfidence that you would.
And I firmly believe that wemake our own luck as much as we
receive luck, right?
I know that if you can draw on awall and draw a door, sometimes
when you knock on that door itwill open and you've got to be
(28:29):
brave enough to draw the doorand believe in it enough that it
will.
So fantastic story Ivonne.
It's been fantastic to have youalong to the show today and I
honestly, I could sit here andask you questions for the next
five or six hours.
It's, it's some fascinatinganswers that you've come back
with.
If anybody who's listening alongwants to find out a bit more,
what's the best place for themto find out more about yourself
(28:50):
or for any of the businessesthat you're working with?
Ivonne (28:54):
The best place is LinkedIn, Ivonne Kinser.
That's my, I'm the only one onLinkedIn.
If you like what you heard aboutmy book, you can find it on
Amazon.
I'll make sure that's in thelink in the comments so nobody
has to go looking around for it.
But, thank you very much foryour time Ivonne.
It's been a privilege to haveyou along for the show.
Hopefully you've enjoyed it aswell.
(29:15):
Thank you.
for having take care.
Bye bye.
I'll see you next week onMarketpulse: Pros Pioneers
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