June 4, 2025 • 42 mins
Enjoying the Show? Share Your Experience!
In this powerful episode of MarketPulse: Pros and Pioneers, we’re joined by Sarah Templeton, a psychotherapist, author, and passionate advocate for ADHD awareness in the criminal justice system. Sarah is the founder of ADHD Liberty, the first UK charity screening for ADHD in police stations, fighting to stop the School-to-Prison Pipeline and campaigning for early diagnosis and intervention.
Sarah shares shocking statistics about ADHD in prisons, how undiagnosed and unsupported neurodivergent individuals end up in the justice system, and why she believes mandatory ADHD screening in schools and criminal justice services is long overdue. Her insights are both eye-opening and essential for parents, educators, and policymakers.
This conversation dives into the failures of the prison system, how ADHD traits contribute to crime, and why misdiagnosis leads so many down the wrong path. You’ll also learn about ADHD coaching vs. counselling, success stories from those who’ve turned their lives around, and what’s next for ADHD Liberty’s groundbreaking initiatives.
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Show Links
Website: https://www.sarahtempleton.org.uk
Charity: https://www.ADHDLiberty.org
Therapy & Coaching: https://www.HeadstuffADHDTherapy.com
ADHD Liberty - Our Charity Partner
ADHD Liberty is the first UK charity screening for ADHD in police stations, working to stop the School-to-Prison Pipeline. They’re campaigning for:
✔️ Mandatory ADHD screening in schools from age 5 and at every transition.
✔️ Screening throughout the criminal justice system, homelessness, and addiction services.
✔️ Better support and resources for neurodivergent individuals before they reach crisis points.
Support the mission and learn more:
🔗 https://www.ADHDLiberty.org
🔗 https://www.SarahTempleton.org.uk
🔗 https://www.HeadstuffADHDTherapy.com
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Paul (00:00):
And welcome to this week's very special MarketPulse Pros
and Pioneers.
It's very special for one simplereason.
Is today I'm able to finallyannounce that we have a charity
partner for the show.
Now I've been looking for acharity partner for about a
year, not long after we startedthe show.
And I've been determined that wewould find a partner that meant
(00:22):
something to me personally andto our family.
Because it's a family business.
And We've been on a bit of ajourney over the last few years,
and I myself have self diagnosedwith ADHD a couple of years
back.
Did a couple of, every time I doan online test I feel like the
tests get more and moreconvincing that I do have it,
and at a higher level.
(00:42):
Maybe it's coming out more, Idon't know.
And there's probably elements ofautism in there as well, I
think, there's some autistictraits in there, the more I
analyse it, we're in there.
And my son, who's seven, hasgone through the assessment
pathway, we don't know fordefinite one way or another.
But I went through a period justbefore Christmas where I was
going out of my mind.
(01:03):
Mind.
We were at the end of ourtether.
My wife was crying at the table.
Son, if you're watching this oneday, when you get older, I'm
very sorry.
This is how it was.
I realized this is indelible.
This is permanent, right?
But, but it was, it was toughand it was hard on him as well.
And we pride ourselves on beingvery loving, caring parents.
We just wanted to do somethingto, we were very clear that it
(01:26):
was something on our end that weneeded to change in order to
help him.
And.
I've looked at books online manytimes, audio books, I like to
listen to them as I'm walking,and I've come across like
American ADHD books, I've comeacross a couple of English ADHD
books, and parenting books, andI found them pretty bland and
boring, and not very helpful orinteresting.
(01:48):
Until I came across one bookthat was written by today's
guest, which is Sarah Templeton.
So Sarah, before I, before Idelve any further into the
story, hello, Hello.
Sarah (01:57):
Hello.
Hi.
Paul (01:58):
And Sarah's book is titled "How Not to Murder Your ADHD
Kids".
Nailed it.
Nailed it.
Because that, that was verypossible at one point.
I can understand how peoplewould end up feeling like that.
We were really at the end of ourtether and it was causing a lot
of problems for the family.
And I'm not going to lie, Istarted listening to the book,
(02:19):
Sarah, and I brought down.
Because I recognised so much ofmyself in the book, not just my
son.
Sarah (02:26):
Yeah.
Oh
Paul (02:28):
a moment, it was watershed for me because I recognised so
much in there that I didn't evenrealise was ADHD.
I just thought it was normal.
I just thought everybody didthose things.
specifically around cutting thelabels out which I know you'll
get to but the label thing blewme away that was just no way I'm
I'm what that's not oh right soI'm gonna I'm gonna hand over to
(02:54):
Sarah in just a moment because Iwant Sarah to share a little bit
of her story and how she gotwhere she is because it's a
fantastic story and also toshare about ADHD Liberty who's
Sarah runs and has kindly agreedthat we're going to be charity
partners.
So we're going to, we're goingto mention them at the beginning
of every show and try andsupport them as much as we can.
Um, and ADHD Liberty is designedto help break the school to
(03:18):
prison pipeline for ADHD andneurodiverse people.
And I think that's phenomenalbecause having worked 10 years
as a volunteer police officer,I've worked 15 years in retail
and now, and I've always beenvery passionate about education
and schools and reform ofschools to bring them up to date
with the way the world is now,not the way they were when we
(03:41):
were all working in factories orbecoming lawyers and never the
twain shall meet.
So I'm very, very passionateabout all of that.
And first of all, just to say,thank you very much for agreeing
to partner with us, Sarah.
I love what you're
Sarah (03:52):
Total, total pleasure.
Absolute pleasure.
Anybody who anybody who getswhat we do and why we do it
tends to get it passionately.
You don't get, you don't gethalf arsed people who are like,
Oh yeah, it's quite a good idea.
People are going to go, Oh myGod, yes, this is a major
problem.
Stop to stop, it's outrageous.
Anybody who's passionate aboutit, you're welcome.
We like your passion.
Paul (04:13):
What I loved about the book as well though is you
explained it from scratch.
And not in scientific terms, butin real terms.
Here's what you'll see, here'swhat you might not realise is
associated, potentially, andhere's all of the associated
symptoms and things that you'llexperience.
You need to know about thesebefore you can do anything about
(04:33):
them, but you need to knowthey're associated so that you
don't just think that they'rethings that all parents go
through.
Sarah (04:39):
Exactly.
Paul (04:40):
just the humour and the way that you dealt with things,
as a, you could tell that you'reADHD, and it
Sarah (04:47):
A fair few people have said that.
Oh, we can tell that was writtenby somebody with ADHD.
yeah, yeah.
yeah.
Paul (04:53):
Before we get into the, the top end of the story though,
I, I would love to hear, How youwent at school, because I know
that that's a big part of theending of the story,
Sarah (05:03):
it
Paul (05:04):
and I know it's something that's inspired you to write the
books that you've written, causethere's more than one, there's
three books at the moment, and Ithink that that would be a great
Sarah (05:12):
out.
yeah okay back at school I wentto very good infant school, very
good junior school combined, andI was fully expected to pass my
12 I was always, in, in, in my31 kids, and I was always either
4th or 5th.
Eighth, 10th, or 11th.
So I was well in the top 50% and16 of the 31 passed to go to the
grammar school.
So when the results came out,everybody was very shocked and
(05:35):
horrified.
My headmaster was actuallyshocked and horrified before the
results even came out, and heappealed that my massive
failure.
And then when the results cameout, my mom and the headmaster
appealed and they were both toldthat I had failed.
I've never forgotten this,bearing in mind I was 12, I'm
now 61, I was 12, I had failed,quote, so spectacularly, they
(05:57):
couldn't put me through, right?
Fast forward a year, end of theyear at the secondary modern
school, I came first ineverything, bored stupid,
headmistress rings my mother andsays, this child shouldn't be at
this school, I've got to replaceat the grammar school.
My mum gets sent the uniformlist.
She said it was full of lacrossesticks and hockey sticks and,
and I couldn't afford it.
Because she'd just walked outfor a whole new school uniform
(06:17):
the year before.
So I get it.
She didn't tell me this till my16th birthday.
So she told me on my 16thbirthday, Oh, by the way, you
could have gone to Challeners,which is a very, very good
school.
Private school, round here, notprivate grammar school, sorry
but I couldn't afford the schooluniform.
I was like, oh, okay, thanks.
I spent four years at a reallyduff, and duff, secondary
school.
When I first went there, my formroom was full of fifth years who
(06:39):
were knitting because they wereall having babies.
They were all pregnant at 14,15, 16.
The height, the rage at the timewas slashing your wrists, so
they were all walking aroundwith great big bandages on their
wrists, and oh, this boy'sdumped me, and I was like.
I'm here to learn.
I loved learning.
I was like a sponge.
I really wanted to learn.
So I spent four years at a very,very, very duff scumbag college
(07:00):
type school, not learninganything, being bored stupid.
Um, and it wasn't until I was inmy very early fifties, a
counsellor said to me, hasanybody ever suggested your
ADHD?
And I said, no.
Never.
Why?
And she said because I think youare.
Go home and google it.
So I went home and googled itand I thought that was my whole
(07:20):
life making sense because I readall the stuff about me.
Quite, it just took my breathaway.
The stuff that really resonatedwith me was Always having to be
right, always knowing best,doing everything fast, having no
patience, low boredom thresholdjust all the, the forceful
stuff, I was always, alwaysthinking I was right, wanting
everything my own way.
If a game wasn't being played myway, not interested.
(07:42):
And then all the other bits andpieces like interrupting people,
being impulsive, being in debt,having addictions.
I was lucky not to go too closeto the addictions, but I did
have a terrible food addiction,terrible.
Sweets addiction, and shopping,spending money, shocking.
So the whole thing made sense.
Then I got diagnosed, I won'tbore you with that story, but
(08:02):
put it this way, it took fourattempts to get diagnosed.
I did eventually get diagnosed,courtesy of this wonderful
counsellor, who kept saying tome, you are ADHD, go again.
So I kept going back and backand back, and on the fourth time
I got diagnosed.
But then what was staggering forme was, Then I was, I trained to
be a counsellor, retrained in myvery late forties, early fifties
to be a counsellor.
(08:23):
I then started working with alot of ADHD clients and they
were telling me, some of them,about their dyspraxia and about
their sensory processingdisorder.
And fewer than that were tellingme about their dyscalculia.
Cutting an exceptionally longstory short, I then went on to
be diagnosed with severedyspraxia, with 1 percent
processing and 1 percent motorskills, sensory processing
(08:46):
disorder, and dyscalculia.
And it was when I was diagnosedwith dyscalculia, which for
those who don't know is thenumbers version of dyslexia, my
entire life did make sense.
Because people with dyscalculiacannot work out problems.
And the 12 plus was problems.
So instead of it being English,maths, French, history, any of
(09:06):
those things, which theheadmaster, she just sailed it,
absolutely sailed it.
It was all, if Rosie's got threebananas and four grapes and five
pineapples, and Ben's got sixpineapples and eight grapes and
four, but how many is, and I waslike, do I care?
Am I interested in this?
Is this sensible?
Is this worthy of my time?
(09:27):
That's what I was thinking.
What a ridiculous question toask.
I was quite bright at 12.
I was, so I just thought they'regoing to ask me ridiculous
questions.
I'm going to give themridiculous answers.
So I started writing down threemillion, two and a half, 33,
486.
Any old nonsense I wrote on thisthing, which is why, if you
remember, the local authoritysaid she has failed so
(09:48):
spectacularly, we can't put herthrough.
Actually, that was anundiagnosed ADHD person who was
Bored to death in this exam thatwas asking ridiculous questions.
Knew that if I, I've probablygot English homework and maths
homework, I'd have rather spentthe time doing proper stuff.
And people were asking me aboutbananas.
I just wasn't interested.
And when I explain to peopleabout a dyscalculia brain when
(10:10):
it comes to problems, it's notthat we try and work them out
and we can't.
It's that there's a full stop.
It's like a big full stop.
That bit of the brain thatshould do that, not there.
Don't work.
It wasn't as if I was going, oh,eight and four and a banana and
a pe Brain doesn't do it.
Not interested.
Just doesn't work that way.
(10:32):
I always say to people now thatwhen I was 12, it was 1975,
right?
I'm a very old person.
But, we are 50 years this yearaway from that dreadful,
spectacular failure at the 12plus and ending up in the wrong
school for four years.
And the tragedy is, nothing haschanged.
(10:53):
If I was at school today, mydyscalculia still wouldn't be
picked up.
My ADHD still wouldn't be pickedup.
None of it would be picked upbecause we're not screening in
schools.
So wouldn't it be fantastic tosay, Oh, that was 50 years ago.
That went out with the arc.
Now we're screening everybody.
We know exactly what people havegot.
They're all getting the rightsupport.
They're all getting this, that,and the other.
No, they're not.
(11:13):
So, I'm now very passionate verypassionate about the school to
prison pipeline because it allstarts at school when kids
aren't having these conditionsrecognised, they're not being
screened, they're not going offfor a nice dyslexia assessment
or a dyspraxia assessment,nobody's bothering, and then,
what happens in their earlyteens, girls and boys, primarily
boys, but a lot of girls aswell, they get fed up, they get
(11:35):
cheesed off, because they'vetried, they've gone, I can't, I
don't understand, I can't dothis, I can't, and they get fed
up, they think, oh, I'm justfailing here, everybody else is
achieving marvellously, I'mfailing, I'm obviously thick,
gormless, whatever, they startlabelling themselves with all
these dreadful, negative, terms.
And they go, they go off, theydon't go to school anymore.
They nip off into town.
And if they nip into town, theywhip a can of Coke from Tesco's
(11:57):
cause they're thirsty.
And then they whip a sandwichfrom somewhere else.
And before you know it, they'regetting arrested for petty crime
and bang, they're into the, onthe slippery slope.
And it's ever so slippery.
As soon as you, as soon as youget on that slope, you are
almost out of control.
Cause as soon as older teenagersget hold of you, they will start
getting you to go through smallwindows.
Getting you to go in and nicksome cigarettes because you
(12:19):
won't be seen under the counter.
It's very, very slippery, thatslope.
And I worked in prisons as acounsellor and this is, then it
broke my heart because Irealised all these people in
prison, certainly all the peopleI work with, they're all ADHD.
About roughly 50 percent arediagnosed as children, but not
on the medication, which is whythey're in prison.
(12:39):
And the other 50%, exactly likeme, clueless.
Absolutely clueless.
They know they thinkdifferently, they know they've
got anger, a lot of them.
They've all got insomnia,they've got dreadful sleep
problems, they've got IBS,they've got loads and loads of
indicators of ADHD, but theyhaven't got a clue that all that
adds up to ADHD.
Just to go to the end of thestory, ADHD Liberty exists
because I am very upset andAngry and every other emotion
(13:06):
you can probably throw at itabout the prison system.
I'm angry because there arepeople in government who are
still writing letters to ussaying everything's going fine
when it comes to ADHD in prison,Sarah.
I don't think so.
I've literally, the last emailI've sent is for a boy in a
prison.
Who knows he's ADHD and can'tget diagnosed in prison.
And he's got a an appeal at theCourt of Appeal.
(13:27):
He's realized he's ADHD, can'tget diagnosed in prison.
And I get emails every singleday, anything from, I would say
one to about three maximum a dayof people in prison who know
that they're ADHD and can't getdiagnosed in there, which is
just outrageous.
When.
Most of the prison population, Iwon't say all, but most of the
(13:48):
prison population is ADHD.
And a good chunk of those havealso got autism.
And the dreadful thing is, weare still, in this day and age,
we like to think that we'reenlightened, and we're person
centred, and we put peoplefirst, and we take mental health
seriously, and all those lovelythings, and if you can be
anything, be kind, and all this.
Yes, we like to think we're likethat, but actually, We are just
(14:10):
locking up people like we did inVictorian times, and in those
times we called them asylums,and now we call them prisons.
They are chock a block withmental health problems.
I'd add in autism because a lotof these ADHD assessments we're
doing are also autisticassessments.
There's a lot of people thathave got both.
There's a heck of a lot ofpeople in prison who would meet
the criteria for PTSD andcomplex PTSD.
(14:34):
And that's largely becausethey've come from undiagnosed
ADHD parents.
So their parents have been, andI'm going to run off a list now,
but I've worked with clients,with parents, with all of these.
Drug dealers and drug addicts.
Very severe alcoholics, mums whodrank three bottles of sherry a
day.
Kids in prison who've lost theirparents through addiction very
(14:54):
young, so they were 16 whentheir mum died, 17, 18, that
sort of age when mum died, anddad's a sociopath or dad's a
psychopath, and dad's a nutter,dad's left, dad's very violent,
the stories of these people.
Kids that end up in prison.
They've come from the mosthorrendous backgrounds.
A lot of them have obviouslycome from care.
They've been removed fromundiagnosed ADHD parents with
(15:15):
neglect, abuse.
Quite a lot of them areundernourished in prison.
I work with one client who wasvery, very short and it turned
out that him and his uncle,Other sibling had also been in
prison and both of them had tobe on injections to strengthen
their bones because their boneswere so weak they were
(15:36):
malnourished from lack ofchildhood nutrition.
What makes me angry and sad inequal measure is that we are
locking up people who are inprison, largely because their
parents had ADHD, probably theirgrandparents as well.
All of it went undiagnosed ormisdiagnosed.
So you'll find loads of boys whogo, Oh, my nan's got bipolar, or
(15:59):
my mum's diagnosed withpsychosis.
My dad's schizophrenic.
Hang on, your ADHD, highlylikely that's come from.
Dad, Mum, Grandma, whatever.
So the amount of misdiagnosis inthese boys is absolutely
phenomenal in their parents,whereas the kids just end up in
prison.
I've got clients, my next bookcoming out is called The Prison
(16:21):
Counselor.
I've purposely not put ADHD inthe title because I didn't want
people to be put off.
I didn't want people to think,oh God, here she goes on again,
banging on about ADHD.
I didn't want to put people off.
Also, I've said in this bookthat my own ADHD diagnosis
didn't come until I was 11 yearsin to having worked in the
prisons.
I started working in the prisonsin 2004.
(16:42):
I wasn't diagnosed with ADHDuntil 2015.
I didn't go into the prisonsthinking, oh, this is going to
be full of me mates.
I'm going to find loads oflovely ADHD people in here.
Not at all.
I was as shocked as anybody whenI was diagnosed in 2015.
But at that point, I was in mythird of four prisons.
And at that point, I suddenlythought, oh my God.
Oh my God, this is why I get onwith them all.
(17:05):
This is why they relate to meand love me, because I'm a very
F off person, if it don't suitme, naff off.
I don't have much tolerance.
If something, I don't like it orwhatever.
I haven't ever got into troublewith the police, touch wood,
never, never can be sure, buthaven't ever.
But I have.
I've had arguments with people,I have massive arguments with
people like the Inland Revenue,the DWP, I'm straight at their
(17:29):
throats.
It's not that I've been cleverand managed to avoid prison,
it's just that my rage and angerhas gone down the drain.
in the direction of authoritiesand people who are incompetent,
that's where mine goes.
But I'm lucky because I've neverpunched anybody, I haven't done
drugs, I've managed to just stayon the right side of the law.
But I can so understand howthese boys don't, and girls.
(17:51):
I always say, we don't have toforget the girls, only 4 percent
of the prison population isfemale.
However, one of my therapistshas worked in female prisons for
20 years, She's ADHD and shesaid, Sarah, it's exactly the
same in the female prisons.
It's pretty much all of them.
So I don't forget the girls.
There's only 4 percent of them,but we think most of them are
ADHD as well.
I've only worked in maleprisons, but I can say hand on
(18:12):
heart.
I, when I came out of theprisons, I said it's roughly
eight or nine out of 10.
And then I.
Completely randomly on aFacebook group for ADHD came
across a mental health nursewho'd worked in the prison
system for 20 years.
And she said to me, she said,Sarah, I've been keeping an
unofficial record for the last20 years, and it's 85 percent of
(18:33):
them are ADHD.
And I said, Oh my God, howrandom is that?
My absolute random figure was10.
85%.
And I was like, wow, howunbelievable.
And she said, no, you're right.
She said, I've been keeping anunofficial record.
It's 85%.
So we've ever since then, thatwas in 2015, 16, I've been
banging a lone drum.
(18:54):
That drum is now no longeralone.
I've got people with me now, butfor six, eight years, I was
saying, Excuse me, the prisonsare full of ADHD, it's
disgusting, do something aboutit.
And it.
wasn't until I linked up withsome police officers who are
also ADHD, and they've helpedwith this hugely, and now it's
much more talked about, andchange is happening.
(19:14):
Change is happening at last, butit literally, this year, 2025,
I've been talking about this for10 years, and it's only in the
last two, maximum three, thatpeople have started to talk
about it.
Paul (19:26):
the scary thing for that, with me, is that there are so
many things I could jump offonto.
I can feel my shiny objectsyndrome going crazy when you're
talking.
And there's almost every talkingpoint you raised, I had
something I wanted to say aboutit, and I wanted to interrupt
you and tell you what I thought.
Not because I want to be rude,but because my brain would let,
and it has, right?
I've let go of some of thethings.
(19:46):
And now I've forgotten what theywere that I wanted to interrupt
you about, right?
That's, and it's, but it's scaryand it's horrible.
My mum does the same thing.
My mum, yeah, I do.
I, I, I, if I'm really in, Ihave to say something about it,
it gets written down and I'llcome back to it.
But half the time, I can'tremember why I wrote down what I
wrote down.
Um, but the, the, the terrifyingthing for me is, I'm looking at
(20:08):
my son at the moment and we'relooking at assessment and we've
been told it's seven years to bediagnosed.
At the current rates.
And that, that queue is growing.
That's in our local authority.
The other local authority nearus is four to five years.
At seven years, he's seven yearsold now, he's going to be well
into senior school before hegets formally diagnosed.
We're very lucky that
Sarah (20:28):
forget it,
Paul (20:29):
junior school and infant school are very supportive.
They're very helpful and they'rekeen to, they don't wait for
assessments to be done to treatchildren in their own individual
capacity, which is brilliant.
I love that.
However, I know that.
Senior school's going to be adifferent story.
Sarah (20:47):
It's good, but it's not good enough.
Because if he's ADHD, themedication is going to
absolutely transform him.
And I get very what's the word?
Frustrated.
No, worse, stronger than that.
Annoyed.
Anybody who thinks it's okay totell anybody that there's a
seven year waiting list forsomething, no, just absolutely
(21:07):
not.
Absolutely not.
You, you cannot do that to achild.
I don't know if you know this, apsychiatrist told me this years
ago and I've never heard it fromanybody else, but this ADHD
psychiatrist did tell me when Isaid to him something about my
memory, I said, Oh, my memory isshocking.
And he said, don't be surprised.
He said the brain okay.
This is the quote.
A brain needs to think a thoughtfor so many split seconds for it
(21:30):
to be stored as a memory.
And an ADHD brain rarely thinksa thought long enough for it to
be stored as a memory.
Yeah?
So if you think, if your son'sseven and they're saying, oh, go
away till you're 14, that'sseven years of education, most
of which isn't going to go in,because he won't be thinking of
the thoughts long enough forthem to be stored.
(21:51):
So no, we do not accept sevenyears.
We go different routes.
We go NHS, second choice, rightto choose.
We go private, we go charities,we go some other route, because
it is, it is not acceptable tosay to anybody, and I'm not just
talking about ADHD people here,it's not acceptable to say to
anybody, you've got to wait forseven years.
No, it's not.
Paul (22:08):
then it's, everyone I speak to has this battle.
Everyone.
I don't know another parent thatdoesn't have, or it's a battle.
Cause we thought we were quitelucky at the beginning.
We had a doctor who supportedus, we had a school who
supported us.
Oh yeah, we'll get him, we'llget him.
And then it starts with the, ohwe've suspended right to choose
at the moment because it's toobusy.
Cause we're getting too manypeople referring to us who are
(22:30):
also going through the NHS routeand we're doubling up on maybe
if your NHS route wasn't solong, we wouldn't need to go
right to choose, therefore itwouldn't be so swamped.
Is it any surprise?
There's a reason we're broughtin right to choose, cause the
NHS was swamped.
And then there's the wholeconversation around that's fine,
but you can get it doneprivately, but we at the NHS
don't have to accept thatassessment and we don't have to.
(22:51):
If you want medication, you haveto come through the NHS.
Sarah (22:53):
And that
Paul (22:53):
And it becomes so complex and ridiculous.
Sarah (22:56):
Yes, it does.
And, and
Paul (22:57):
so
Sarah (22:59):
no, I just want to
Paul (22:59):
no, I was,
Sarah (23:00):
It's pretty much the same all over the country that there
are pockets where it's working.
I'll tell you one pocket.
My very first prison boy, veryfirst ever client in a prison,
prison, his daughter is ragingADHD and she's only five.
And she just managed to getassessed and diagnosed at the
age of five through chems.
(23:21):
I'm trying to think where theyare, Enfield.
North London, Enfield, on theborder of Hertfordshire.
And I think they first referredto her when she was 2 or 3,
because it was very obvious frombirth, really, that she was very
severely ADHD.
Both her parents were ADHD.
And she's only, she's justturned 6 this year, but the
actual diagnosis was last yearwhen she was 5.
(23:41):
So there are pockets where youcan get a review, a proper
assessment via CAMHS, and youget the right treatment, and
she's going to be diagnosed, notdiagnosed, she's going to be
medicated, she needs to be andthat's happened, so that's not a
seven year waiting list, she'sbeen diagnosed by the age of
five.
Because the organisation I run,my sort of bread and butter job,
if you like, is I run HeadstuffADHD Therapy.
(24:03):
Now that came about because whenI qualified as a counsellor,
pretty much the same time I wasdiagnosed.
And I thought I'll just pop ADHDon my website.
Don't know if I'll ever meetanother ADHD person, ever, but
I'll pop it on, popped it on andthen became a specialist
overnight because suddenlypeople came to me.
At that point, a lot ofcounsellors for ADHD were not
(24:23):
coming out of the closet.
They were well back in theirclosets.
They were terrified that itwould lose some clients.
I, mouth almighty.
I, when I was diagnosed I wasthrilled.
I was absolutely thrilled toknow that I'd got something.
It had a name, and I became verywhat's the word dynamic about
it, I was like, Yeah, I've gotthis! Other people have probably
got it and don't know.
(24:43):
And it's It's been lifetransforming for me, it's
validated everything I've beenthrough.
So I was out and proud from theminute I got it, straight on my
website, and then I had loadsand loads and loads of people
come to me and go, Oh my god, doyou not find it loses your
client?
I'm like, no, it's getting meloads of clients.
Don't be ridiculous, I'm gettingswamped.
So I've ended up with a teamnow, I've not counted them
lately, but we're, we'reapproaching a hundred, somewhere
(25:06):
in the 80s, 90s.
Most of them fully qualifiedcounsellors.
This is where we differ frommost people.
Um, ADHD coaching courses arepopping up ten a penny, popping
up ten a day.
It's ridiculous, but they'renot, they're not great.
Some of them are good, most ofthem are not.
They're very, they're far tooshort and they don't cover
enough for you to work ADHDperson.
(25:28):
Show me an ADHD person whodoesn't have trauma.
Who doesn't have relationshipissues, doesn't have addiction
issues, doesn't have self esteemissues.
We've all got varying degrees ofall of this and that needs a
counsellor.
It doesn't need a coach.
So we do have some coaches onour team.
We've got about 10 or 15 ofthem, and that, but these are
very, very highly qualifiedones.
They're not somebody who's donea six week course.
(25:48):
Do you know what I mean?
They're people that have studiedfor years, coaching.
But the vast majority of us arefully qualified counsellors.
So, That's my bread and butterjob.
Although I, and I did counselfor a long time.
I counseled between 2013 androughly 2020.
And then I stopped.
Unless people are absolutelydesperate.
And if a teenager's on their wayto prison and adamant that
(26:11):
they're going to carry on thatpath.
Or adamant they're not ADHD.
I do, I do like them.
I had one of them recently.
Absolutely adamant he's notADHD.
But doing it large on the drugs,on the offending, on the
promiscuity, all of it.
And I had to convince him he wasADHD.
I don't mind those.
I do a challenge, but I don'tsee clients regularly anymore.
I just don't have time.
So now what I'm doing is, I do alot of training, which I love.
(26:35):
Go into schools all over the UK.
Just about to go to Australiafor two months.
I've already booked into fourschools in Australia hoping for
more.
But I'm doing four schools inAustralia.
I'm also doing a talk atBrisbane University about the
link between ADHD and sexoffending, which isn't something
a lot of people like to talkabout, but I know about it
because I've worked with ADHDsex offenders.
So now I do training a lot and Iwrite books.
(26:57):
Um, I've just written The PrisonCounselor, which is all about
the amount of ADHD in prisonsand where it's hiding, where
it's hidden.
with lots of boys who've beentold they've outgrown it it was
a childhood behaviouraldisorder, so they've been taken
off their meds, and then bang,where do they find themselves?
Within a year or two, they're inprison.
So there's that cohort.
Then you've got the ones whowere diagnosed as a child and
(27:17):
genuinely, genuinely themselvesthink they've outgrown it, and
it was a childhood thing, andthey don't even believe they've
got it anymore, so you have totalk them round into thinking,
no, actually, potentially, it'swhat got them diagnosed.
Put you in here in the firstplace.
Then you've got a massive chunkwho've got absolutely no idea
that they've got anything, butthey are prolific offenders.
(27:37):
They might have been in prison20 times.
And a lot of their offending isoften to do with self medicating
their ADHD.
So a lot of people are in therebecause they've been alcohol,
let's use alcohol as the easyexample.
You'll get quite a lot of peoplein prison who are alcoholics and
all their offending has eitherbeen stealing.
stealing.
(27:57):
stealing to fund alcohol,stealing alcohol, getting into
fights when they're drunk.
So often GBH, ABH, evenattempted murder.
I've worked with people whenthey've been really rolling
drunk.
In fact, one boy was done formurder.
He didn't actually do anything.
He just kicked somebody, butanyway, he was so drunk because
he was ADHD and self medicatingthat he was actually in prison
(28:18):
for murder.
He didn't murder them.
I must have to make that clear,but he was like an accessory.
Then they're in prison forthings like criminal damage.
Which they do when they'redrunk, they'll kick something or
smash a pot by accident orwhatever.
And then they get put in prisonfor a fray.
A lot of boys are in there for afray.
So that's purely somebody who'sself medicating their alcohol.
(28:38):
And I've met loads of them thatare in prison for all that sort
of thing.
And also domestic violence,because when they're drunk,
That's when they will scream attheir girlfriend, when that's
when they might chuck something,that's when they'll be more
heavy handed than they might bewhen if they were sober.
So domestic violence is alsolinked with the self medicating.
So the prisons are chock a blockwith ADHD in all different
(29:00):
capacities.
So diagnosed, undiagnosed, someof them think they've got
autism.
It's quite fascinating goingback through all my notes, which
I've just done to write thisbook, all my prison notes, which
I've kept.
And there was one boy who, infact, it was that five year
old's father who said he thoughthe was autistic and could I
bring in an autism screener,which I did.
(29:21):
I took it in and he didn't scoreanything.
And I took it away.
And then this was years beforemy ADHD diagnosis.
I had no clue to think, I wonderif you've got something else or,
I just literally did as I wastold, bring an ADA, bring an
autism screener in.
He didn't score high enough.
We thought nothing more of it.
It was about another seven,eight years before I went back
(29:41):
to that boy, found him, I gothim diagnosed with ADHD.
There's loads of people in therethat know they've got something
going on, don't know what it is.
One other group that's in there,there's a lot of boys in prison
who hate themselves, becausethey know that the minute they
go out, They're going to dosomething dodgy and they're
going to end up back in prison,but they don't know why they're
(30:02):
going to do it again.
Classic example is a lovely,lovely boy I work with in
Aylesbury, Young Offenders.
He said, oh, he said, I justwish, Sarah, that I could be the
nice bloke that I am here,sitting, talking to you, being
nice, having a cup of tea, beingsensible and grown up.
He said, but I know, the minuteI walk out of prison, he said,
I'm going to see a handbag.
I'm going to see a purse or I'mgoing to see a car door that's
(30:23):
open.
And he said, and I turned intothat other one.
And I can't, I know, I can't notdo that because I've tried so
many times not to do it.
Now that boy was one of the oneswho was diagnosed ADHD as a
child and taken off the meds.
And if I'd have been counsellinghim now, I'd have been saying, I
know, I know, I know.
Why now?
It's your impulsivity.
It's your compulsivity becauseyou've done that in the past and
(30:44):
it's given you excitement.
You know you're not going to beable to not do that when you get
out.
And that's why You think, thatyou know you can't be a good
person because those temptationsare still going to be there, and
you know that you haven't gotthe, whatever it is within.
He used to say, I'm weak willed,I've got no moral compass,
Paul (31:01):
I've got no
Sarah (31:02):
and what was the other thing he'd say?
Something like, I haven't gotstrength of character, and he
used to really criticise himselffor that And I really regret
that I didn't know more at thattime to say no, it's not that.
It's actually your compulsivebrain that is going to not allow
you to walk past a handbag or apurse or an opened car.
And that's a big chunk of themin prison.
(31:23):
They hate themselves becausethey know that when they get out
they're going to do the samething.
And that's because they're notmedicated for their ADHD.
So of course they're going tokeep doing the same stuff.
That's a tragedy.
I'm sorry.
Paul (31:34):
And having worked 10 years, 10 years on one side of
the thin blue line myself, I cansee a lot of what you're seeing
in the experiences I had, and Iunderstand a lot more now.
And I was I've, there's a whole,I'll be honest, Sarah, me and
you could talk about thissubject for hours and hours and
hours, and it's probably apodcast on its own.
What I would say is that I thinkthere's, there's a couple of
(31:57):
things that particularly makeyou stand out to me, as opposed
to a lot of the other.
ADHD experts that I've heard, orcertainly talk around parenting,
and one is that you identify thesymptoms of ADHD children, but
you also believe that some ofthe symptoms need to be managed.
(32:17):
And it's not a case of just, ohthey're ADHD, so that's an
excuse, and just let them getaway with it, and that leads to
the behaviour that lands them inprison.
And a specific example was, youwere talking about lying, and
we, ADHD people can lie forexcitement, or because they
don't want to, cause it'sboring, they're making it moric.
All of those things, and yourstatement at the end of the book
(32:37):
was, and it needs to be nippedin the bud now.
And I love that, because, toosoft.
leads to bad situations down theline, but at the same time, we
need to help people understandhow to cope with, with what
they've got, how to understandthat they need to have something
that they need to cope with halfthe
Sarah (32:58):
100%.
And that's a, that's a, go on,sorry, carry on.
no, I was going to
Paul (33:02):
I was going to say that
Sarah (33:03):
a brilliant one to pick on, because when I say about
lying, there are some idiots whogo, I've never lied, that's
outrageous that you should evensuggest it.
No, not everybody lies, but alot of people do.
And I did, but I only didthrough my teens.
How typical is that?
Just through the puberty thing,that's when I lied.
And it was only ever.
to get something.
So I would say, Oh, I've had areally, I actually use this one.
(33:25):
I say to my mum, Oh, we had areally pathetic salad at
lunchtime.
I'm absolutely ravenous.
And she said, Oh, did you?
That's outrageous.
Go and have some more bread,have some more, we hadn't, but
it was to get something.
I used to steal out my mum'spurse again to get food when I
was out compulsive eating.
And I did put arms and legs onthings to make things more
exciting.
But the reason it has beennipped in the bard, is, as
(33:46):
you've said
Paul (33:47):
been
Sarah (33:47):
it doesn't lead anywhere good.
You can't keep on doing thatbecause ultimately, I hate to
say it, but pretty mucheverybody in prison is a damn
good liar.
Paul (33:56):
everybody a
Sarah (33:56):
You don't, get many honest drug dealers.
They're very good at lying, verygood at pretending, very good at
hiding.
And that's where it leads to.
It leads to dangerousactivities.
Um, so What I always say thatwith these traits, like lying,
brilliant example, is you needto explain to a child.
So If you catch a child out,don't have a go at them there
and then.
Always leave it till the nextday, so it's completely random,
(34:17):
and always pick when they're ina good mood.
But just say, actually, youmight not even know this, but
your brain actually does some ofthese things.
And some of them are fantastic,absolutely phenomenal, and
you're going to achievemassively.
But there's a couple, this isone of them that you've got to
be aware of.
Because your brain naturallydoes want to put arms and legs,
oh, lying's not the greatest ofwords, not being skimpy with the
(34:38):
truth is better.
or putting arms and legs onthings.
Paul (34:40):
and legs
Sarah (34:40):
And the way you word it is very, very important.
If you make them understand thatthat's the way their brain kind
of leads them, but that's thesort of thing that's going to
get them in trouble.
So actually, to try and be awareof it, and also never to worry
about admitting the truth.
If they can, if they can lie oneday, they're never going to tell
you at the time that they'velied and they're really sorry.
But if you give them a day, 48hours, and always give them
(35:04):
various ways of doing it.
I think I've said this in thebook.
Allow them to write it, text it,voice note it, put a note under
your bedroom door.
Whatever way works for them,that they can say, Actually, you
are right, I was lying.
But I've got, I've got back toyou within 48 hours, so I don't
get told off, do I?
Mm
Paul (35:23):
particularly I love about what you've done.
We've talked a lot today aboutthe negative consequences of
having near DHD and the path itcan lead into prison and the
serious consequences of that.
But what I really liked was whenwe first talked and you sold it
to me as when you're talking toa young person, it's very much a
superpower.
And I believe this.
(35:43):
Absolutely believe this.
It's a superpower and it's agift to have ADHD.
It doesn't mean you're going toend up in prison.
It's just that the system hasfailed so many people and never
taught them with, never taughtthem ways to deal with ADHD,
never gave them ways to cope.
(36:03):
And never had the supportmechanisms in place in order to
make that happen, compoundedgenerationally.
So I just wanted to, as a kindof last note before we sign the
episode off, is I really lovethat, the way that you pitched
that to me, in that it's reallya privilege to have ADHD,
Sarah (36:22):
Oh, 100%! 100%! percent Yeah! and you're absolutely
right, the people that are inprison, they have not had the,
they've not had anything,they've not had parents who've
been able to support them,they've not had the diagnosis at
the right time, they'vecertainly not been medicated,
they've not had the support atschool, they've had very little,
and that's why they end up wherethey are.
But people who are supported,one of my clients, my private
clients, this year, he qualifiesas a doctor.
(36:43):
And he's going to be aphenomenal doctor, because he's
very compassionate, very kind,very caring, and he's just done
seven years training to be adoctor.
We end up in very high places aswell.
And I always say to people that,go, oh, it's a disability, and
it's a SEND need, and it's aSENCO job, and it's a this and a
that.
No, excuse me.
I was never a SEND kid.
I was never under a SENCO.
Paul (37:03):
a
Sarah (37:04):
do I own several businesses, several properties,
and a charity?
Yes.
Are all the very successfulpeople in the world.
When I say successful,politicians, actors, musicians,
comedians, all these people,sports people.
Who's the top in every single,area you look at?
They're ADHD.
Our best politicians are ADHD.
(37:25):
The, the, Hollywood is chock ablock with ADHD.
Everybody from Whoopi Goldberg,to Tom Hanks, to Tom Cruise, to
Britney Spears, to JustinTimberlake, to Will.
I.
Am, to, to everybody that'sanybody is ADHD.
And it's the same in the sports.
You look at every single sportwho are the ones that are
absolutely outstanding andbrilliant
Paul (37:46):
outstanding and
Sarah (37:47):
Simone Biles being just one example.
So, yes, I am, I am the prison'schampion, if you like, and I'm
the one who would always putthose boys in prison first,
because nobody else does.
And I do, because I know loadsof them, and I absolutely love
them all, and I know thatthey're not bad people.
they've just had a real toughstart to life, and they've ended
up in prison.
(38:08):
And I always say to people,please don't hate them.
They hate themselves way morethan you ever need to hate them.
They've got crippling low selfesteem, they think they're a
waste of space, some of themeven take their own lives
because they just think theworld's better off without me.
And it's not.
If we can actually get to them,get them diagnosed and
medicated, which we've done witha lot of my ex prisoners,
they're all out now, they're allin successful relationships,
(38:29):
they're all working, they're allT Total, Don't, not doing drugs,
not getting into fights, becausethey're diagnosed and medicated.
So, I will always focus on thoseboys in prison, cause it's
nobody else's top priority, Butit's mine to change the criminal
justice system in this country.
We need to be mandatoryscreening for ADHD.
But not at the end.
We don't just need to be doingit in the criminal justice
(38:49):
system.
We need to be doing it inschools.
We need to catch these kids whenthey are five.
Paul (38:53):
when they are
Sarah (38:54):
Not 25.
And it's all too late.
Their self esteem's beendestroyed.
They've got a criminal record aslong as your arm.
And, and they, their mentalhealth is is bad, they're
probably addicted to something,parents are dead.
That's too late.
Let's start screening them atfive.
Let's pick up as many people asquickly as we possibly can, get
the right support in place, getthe right meds in place if
(39:15):
necessary, and then watch themthrive.
Because They will, theyabsolutely will.
Paul (39:20):
absolutely will.
I love it.
And that's exactly why I wantedto have you as a charity
partner.
'cause I think it's a fantasticinitiative and a fantastic
mission and vision to championas part of the show And it
certainly aligns with my ownpersonal experience.
And so looking forward to, and Ithink what, what, what I'd like
to do, Sarah, is we'd love tocatch back up with you again in
(39:41):
about six months or so whenyou've been to Australia and
you've come back.
And to hear a little bit moreabout how you're getting on with
some of the initiatives, you'vegot the tests and trials that
you've got going on with
Sarah (39:50):
six months is a perfect time because we have got pilots
and trials going on with so manydifferent places, homeless
organizations, addiction,prisons, probation, all over.
So in six months I'll have a lotmore facts and figures for
everybody.
But I will just say now, thevery early pilots that we've got
the figures for, they're allcoming in exactly that figure,
85%.
Paul (40:08):
85%.
Sarah (40:09):
It's a big problem in the criminal justice system.
It's a big problem, but we'reup, we're up to it.
We are going to solve thisbecause we're passionate about
it and we've got a fantasticteam.
And I'm thrilled that you're,going to join up with us as
well.
I thank you for that because weneed more exposure.
for what we're doing.
Paul (40:25):
And if you're listening along to this at home watching
this and you want to find out abit more about the work of ADHD,
Liberty or Headstuff the linksare all in the bottom of the
show notes.
Please do go along, have a look.
There's some awesome, awesomeresources down there.
Thank you very much for anexciting episode, Sarah.
I loved hearing that story.
I'm sure everyone at home did aswell.
And I will speak to you in thenot too distant future.
(40:47):
Thank you, bye bye.
Amazing, thank you so much.
Thank you
And welcome to this week's very special MarketPulse Pros
and Pioneers.
It's very special for one simplereason.
Is today I'm able to finallyannounce that we have a charity
partner for the show.
Now I've been looking for acharity partner for about a
year, not long after we startedthe show.
And I've been determined that wewould find a partner that meant
(00:22):
something to me personally andto our family.
Because it's a family business.
And We've been on a bit of ajourney over the last few years,
and I myself have self diagnosedwith ADHD a couple of years
back.
Did a couple of, every time I doan online test I feel like the
tests get more and moreconvincing that I do have it,
and at a higher level.
(00:42):
Maybe it's coming out more, Idon't know.
And there's probably elements ofautism in there as well, I
think, there's some autistictraits in there, the more I
analyse it, we're in there.
And my son, who's seven, hasgone through the assessment
pathway, we don't know fordefinite one way or another.
But I went through a period justbefore Christmas where I was
going out of my mind.
(01:03):
Mind.
We were at the end of ourtether.
My wife was crying at the table.
Son, if you're watching this oneday, when you get older, I'm
very sorry.
This is how it was.
I realized this is indelible.
This is permanent, right?
But, but it was, it was toughand it was hard on him as well.
And we pride ourselves on beingvery loving, caring parents.
We just wanted to do somethingto, we were very clear that it
(01:26):
was something on our end that weneeded to change in order to
help him.
And.
I've looked at books online manytimes, audio books, I like to
listen to them as I'm walking,and I've come across like
American ADHD books, I've comeacross a couple of English ADHD
books, and parenting books, andI found them pretty bland and
boring, and not very helpful orinteresting.
(01:48):
Until I came across one bookthat was written by today's
guest, which is Sarah Templeton.
So Sarah, before I, before Idelve any further into the
story, hello, Hello.
Sarah (01:57):
Hello.
Hi.
Paul (01:58):
And Sarah's book is titled "How Not to Murder Your ADHD
Kids".
Nailed it.
Nailed it.
Because that, that was verypossible at one point.
I can understand how peoplewould end up feeling like that.
We were really at the end of ourtether and it was causing a lot
of problems for the family.
And I'm not going to lie, Istarted listening to the book,
(02:19):
Sarah, and I brought down.
Because I recognised so much ofmyself in the book, not just my
son.
Sarah (02:26):
Yeah.
Oh
Paul (02:28):
a moment, it was watershed for me because I recognised so
much in there that I didn't evenrealise was ADHD.
I just thought it was normal.
I just thought everybody didthose things.
specifically around cutting thelabels out which I know you'll
get to but the label thing blewme away that was just no way I'm
I'm what that's not oh right soI'm gonna I'm gonna hand over to
(02:54):
Sarah in just a moment because Iwant Sarah to share a little bit
of her story and how she gotwhere she is because it's a
fantastic story and also toshare about ADHD Liberty who's
Sarah runs and has kindly agreedthat we're going to be charity
partners.
So we're going to, we're goingto mention them at the beginning
of every show and try andsupport them as much as we can.
Um, and ADHD Liberty is designedto help break the school to
(03:18):
prison pipeline for ADHD andneurodiverse people.
And I think that's phenomenalbecause having worked 10 years
as a volunteer police officer,I've worked 15 years in retail
and now, and I've always beenvery passionate about education
and schools and reform ofschools to bring them up to date
with the way the world is now,not the way they were when we
(03:41):
were all working in factories orbecoming lawyers and never the
twain shall meet.
So I'm very, very passionateabout all of that.
And first of all, just to say,thank you very much for agreeing
to partner with us, Sarah.
I love what you're
Sarah (03:52):
Total, total pleasure.
Absolute pleasure.
Anybody who anybody who getswhat we do and why we do it
tends to get it passionately.
You don't get, you don't gethalf arsed people who are like,
Oh yeah, it's quite a good idea.
People are going to go, Oh myGod, yes, this is a major
problem.
Stop to stop, it's outrageous.
Anybody who's passionate aboutit, you're welcome.
We like your passion.
Paul (04:13):
What I loved about the book as well though is you
explained it from scratch.
And not in scientific terms, butin real terms.
Here's what you'll see, here'swhat you might not realise is
associated, potentially, andhere's all of the associated
symptoms and things that you'llexperience.
You need to know about thesebefore you can do anything about
(04:33):
them, but you need to knowthey're associated so that you
don't just think that they'rethings that all parents go
through.
Sarah (04:39):
Exactly.
Paul (04:40):
just the humour and the way that you dealt with things,
as a, you could tell that you'reADHD, and it
Sarah (04:47):
A fair few people have said that.
Oh, we can tell that was writtenby somebody with ADHD.
yeah, yeah.
yeah.
Paul (04:53):
Before we get into the, the top end of the story though,
I, I would love to hear, How youwent at school, because I know
that that's a big part of theending of the story,
Sarah (05:03):
it
Paul (05:04):
and I know it's something that's inspired you to write the
books that you've written, causethere's more than one, there's
three books at the moment, and Ithink that that would be a great
Sarah (05:12):
out.
yeah okay back at school I wentto very good infant school, very
good junior school combined, andI was fully expected to pass my
12 I was always, in, in, in my31 kids, and I was always either
4th or 5th.
Eighth, 10th, or 11th.
So I was well in the top 50% and16 of the 31 passed to go to the
grammar school.
So when the results came out,everybody was very shocked and
(05:35):
horrified.
My headmaster was actuallyshocked and horrified before the
results even came out, and heappealed that my massive
failure.
And then when the results cameout, my mom and the headmaster
appealed and they were both toldthat I had failed.
I've never forgotten this,bearing in mind I was 12, I'm
now 61, I was 12, I had failed,quote, so spectacularly, they
(05:57):
couldn't put me through, right?
Fast forward a year, end of theyear at the secondary modern
school, I came first ineverything, bored stupid,
headmistress rings my mother andsays, this child shouldn't be at
this school, I've got to replaceat the grammar school.
My mum gets sent the uniformlist.
She said it was full of lacrossesticks and hockey sticks and,
and I couldn't afford it.
Because she'd just walked outfor a whole new school uniform
(06:17):
the year before.
So I get it.
She didn't tell me this till my16th birthday.
So she told me on my 16thbirthday, Oh, by the way, you
could have gone to Challeners,which is a very, very good
school.
Private school, round here, notprivate grammar school, sorry
but I couldn't afford the schooluniform.
I was like, oh, okay, thanks.
I spent four years at a reallyduff, and duff, secondary
school.
When I first went there, my formroom was full of fifth years who
(06:39):
were knitting because they wereall having babies.
They were all pregnant at 14,15, 16.
The height, the rage at the timewas slashing your wrists, so
they were all walking aroundwith great big bandages on their
wrists, and oh, this boy'sdumped me, and I was like.
I'm here to learn.
I loved learning.
I was like a sponge.
I really wanted to learn.
So I spent four years at a very,very, very duff scumbag college
(07:00):
type school, not learninganything, being bored stupid.
Um, and it wasn't until I was inmy very early fifties, a
counsellor said to me, hasanybody ever suggested your
ADHD?
And I said, no.
Never.
Why?
And she said because I think youare.
Go home and google it.
So I went home and googled itand I thought that was my whole
(07:20):
life making sense because I readall the stuff about me.
Quite, it just took my breathaway.
The stuff that really resonatedwith me was Always having to be
right, always knowing best,doing everything fast, having no
patience, low boredom thresholdjust all the, the forceful
stuff, I was always, alwaysthinking I was right, wanting
everything my own way.
If a game wasn't being played myway, not interested.
(07:42):
And then all the other bits andpieces like interrupting people,
being impulsive, being in debt,having addictions.
I was lucky not to go too closeto the addictions, but I did
have a terrible food addiction,terrible.
Sweets addiction, and shopping,spending money, shocking.
So the whole thing made sense.
Then I got diagnosed, I won'tbore you with that story, but
(08:02):
put it this way, it took fourattempts to get diagnosed.
I did eventually get diagnosed,courtesy of this wonderful
counsellor, who kept saying tome, you are ADHD, go again.
So I kept going back and backand back, and on the fourth time
I got diagnosed.
But then what was staggering forme was, Then I was, I trained to
be a counsellor, retrained in myvery late forties, early fifties
to be a counsellor.
(08:23):
I then started working with alot of ADHD clients and they
were telling me, some of them,about their dyspraxia and about
their sensory processingdisorder.
And fewer than that were tellingme about their dyscalculia.
Cutting an exceptionally longstory short, I then went on to
be diagnosed with severedyspraxia, with 1 percent
processing and 1 percent motorskills, sensory processing
(08:46):
disorder, and dyscalculia.
And it was when I was diagnosedwith dyscalculia, which for
those who don't know is thenumbers version of dyslexia, my
entire life did make sense.
Because people with dyscalculiacannot work out problems.
And the 12 plus was problems.
So instead of it being English,maths, French, history, any of
(09:06):
those things, which theheadmaster, she just sailed it,
absolutely sailed it.
It was all, if Rosie's got threebananas and four grapes and five
pineapples, and Ben's got sixpineapples and eight grapes and
four, but how many is, and I waslike, do I care?
Am I interested in this?
Is this sensible?
Is this worthy of my time?
(09:27):
That's what I was thinking.
What a ridiculous question toask.
I was quite bright at 12.
I was, so I just thought they'regoing to ask me ridiculous
questions.
I'm going to give themridiculous answers.
So I started writing down threemillion, two and a half, 33,
486.
Any old nonsense I wrote on thisthing, which is why, if you
remember, the local authoritysaid she has failed so
(09:48):
spectacularly, we can't put herthrough.
Actually, that was anundiagnosed ADHD person who was
Bored to death in this exam thatwas asking ridiculous questions.
Knew that if I, I've probablygot English homework and maths
homework, I'd have rather spentthe time doing proper stuff.
And people were asking me aboutbananas.
I just wasn't interested.
And when I explain to peopleabout a dyscalculia brain when
(10:10):
it comes to problems, it's notthat we try and work them out
and we can't.
It's that there's a full stop.
It's like a big full stop.
That bit of the brain thatshould do that, not there.
Don't work.
It wasn't as if I was going, oh,eight and four and a banana and
a pe Brain doesn't do it.
Not interested.
Just doesn't work that way.
(10:32):
I always say to people now thatwhen I was 12, it was 1975,
right?
I'm a very old person.
But, we are 50 years this yearaway from that dreadful,
spectacular failure at the 12plus and ending up in the wrong
school for four years.
And the tragedy is, nothing haschanged.
(10:53):
If I was at school today, mydyscalculia still wouldn't be
picked up.
My ADHD still wouldn't be pickedup.
None of it would be picked upbecause we're not screening in
schools.
So wouldn't it be fantastic tosay, Oh, that was 50 years ago.
That went out with the arc.
Now we're screening everybody.
We know exactly what people havegot.
They're all getting the rightsupport.
They're all getting this, that,and the other.
No, they're not.
(11:13):
So, I'm now very passionate verypassionate about the school to
prison pipeline because it allstarts at school when kids
aren't having these conditionsrecognised, they're not being
screened, they're not going offfor a nice dyslexia assessment
or a dyspraxia assessment,nobody's bothering, and then,
what happens in their earlyteens, girls and boys, primarily
boys, but a lot of girls aswell, they get fed up, they get
(11:35):
cheesed off, because they'vetried, they've gone, I can't, I
don't understand, I can't dothis, I can't, and they get fed
up, they think, oh, I'm justfailing here, everybody else is
achieving marvellously, I'mfailing, I'm obviously thick,
gormless, whatever, they startlabelling themselves with all
these dreadful, negative, terms.
And they go, they go off, theydon't go to school anymore.
They nip off into town.
And if they nip into town, theywhip a can of Coke from Tesco's
(11:57):
cause they're thirsty.
And then they whip a sandwichfrom somewhere else.
And before you know it, they'regetting arrested for petty crime
and bang, they're into the, onthe slippery slope.
And it's ever so slippery.
As soon as you, as soon as youget on that slope, you are
almost out of control.
Cause as soon as older teenagersget hold of you, they will start
getting you to go through smallwindows.
Getting you to go in and nicksome cigarettes because you
(12:19):
won't be seen under the counter.
It's very, very slippery, thatslope.
And I worked in prisons as acounsellor and this is, then it
broke my heart because Irealised all these people in
prison, certainly all the peopleI work with, they're all ADHD.
About roughly 50 percent arediagnosed as children, but not
on the medication, which is whythey're in prison.
(12:39):
And the other 50%, exactly likeme, clueless.
Absolutely clueless.
They know they thinkdifferently, they know they've
got anger, a lot of them.
They've all got insomnia,they've got dreadful sleep
problems, they've got IBS,they've got loads and loads of
indicators of ADHD, but theyhaven't got a clue that all that
adds up to ADHD.
Just to go to the end of thestory, ADHD Liberty exists
because I am very upset andAngry and every other emotion
(13:06):
you can probably throw at itabout the prison system.
I'm angry because there arepeople in government who are
still writing letters to ussaying everything's going fine
when it comes to ADHD in prison,Sarah.
I don't think so.
I've literally, the last emailI've sent is for a boy in a
prison.
Who knows he's ADHD and can'tget diagnosed in prison.
And he's got a an appeal at theCourt of Appeal.
(13:27):
He's realized he's ADHD, can'tget diagnosed in prison.
And I get emails every singleday, anything from, I would say
one to about three maximum a dayof people in prison who know
that they're ADHD and can't getdiagnosed in there, which is
just outrageous.
When.
Most of the prison population, Iwon't say all, but most of the
(13:48):
prison population is ADHD.
And a good chunk of those havealso got autism.
And the dreadful thing is, weare still, in this day and age,
we like to think that we'reenlightened, and we're person
centred, and we put peoplefirst, and we take mental health
seriously, and all those lovelythings, and if you can be
anything, be kind, and all this.
Yes, we like to think we're likethat, but actually, We are just
(14:10):
locking up people like we did inVictorian times, and in those
times we called them asylums,and now we call them prisons.
They are chock a block withmental health problems.
I'd add in autism because a lotof these ADHD assessments we're
doing are also autisticassessments.
There's a lot of people thathave got both.
There's a heck of a lot ofpeople in prison who would meet
the criteria for PTSD andcomplex PTSD.
(14:34):
And that's largely becausethey've come from undiagnosed
ADHD parents.
So their parents have been, andI'm going to run off a list now,
but I've worked with clients,with parents, with all of these.
Drug dealers and drug addicts.
Very severe alcoholics, mums whodrank three bottles of sherry a
day.
Kids in prison who've lost theirparents through addiction very
(14:54):
young, so they were 16 whentheir mum died, 17, 18, that
sort of age when mum died, anddad's a sociopath or dad's a
psychopath, and dad's a nutter,dad's left, dad's very violent,
the stories of these people.
Kids that end up in prison.
They've come from the mosthorrendous backgrounds.
A lot of them have obviouslycome from care.
They've been removed fromundiagnosed ADHD parents with
(15:15):
neglect, abuse.
Quite a lot of them areundernourished in prison.
I work with one client who wasvery, very short and it turned
out that him and his uncle,Other sibling had also been in
prison and both of them had tobe on injections to strengthen
their bones because their boneswere so weak they were
(15:36):
malnourished from lack ofchildhood nutrition.
What makes me angry and sad inequal measure is that we are
locking up people who are inprison, largely because their
parents had ADHD, probably theirgrandparents as well.
All of it went undiagnosed ormisdiagnosed.
So you'll find loads of boys whogo, Oh, my nan's got bipolar, or
(15:59):
my mum's diagnosed withpsychosis.
My dad's schizophrenic.
Hang on, your ADHD, highlylikely that's come from.
Dad, Mum, Grandma, whatever.
So the amount of misdiagnosis inthese boys is absolutely
phenomenal in their parents,whereas the kids just end up in
prison.
I've got clients, my next bookcoming out is called The Prison
(16:21):
Counselor.
I've purposely not put ADHD inthe title because I didn't want
people to be put off.
I didn't want people to think,oh God, here she goes on again,
banging on about ADHD.
I didn't want to put people off.
Also, I've said in this bookthat my own ADHD diagnosis
didn't come until I was 11 yearsin to having worked in the
prisons.
I started working in the prisonsin 2004.
(16:42):
I wasn't diagnosed with ADHDuntil 2015.
I didn't go into the prisonsthinking, oh, this is going to
be full of me mates.
I'm going to find loads oflovely ADHD people in here.
Not at all.
I was as shocked as anybody whenI was diagnosed in 2015.
But at that point, I was in mythird of four prisons.
And at that point, I suddenlythought, oh my God.
Oh my God, this is why I get onwith them all.
(17:05):
This is why they relate to meand love me, because I'm a very
F off person, if it don't suitme, naff off.
I don't have much tolerance.
If something, I don't like it orwhatever.
I haven't ever got into troublewith the police, touch wood,
never, never can be sure, buthaven't ever.
But I have.
I've had arguments with people,I have massive arguments with
people like the Inland Revenue,the DWP, I'm straight at their
(17:29):
throats.
It's not that I've been cleverand managed to avoid prison,
it's just that my rage and angerhas gone down the drain.
in the direction of authoritiesand people who are incompetent,
that's where mine goes.
But I'm lucky because I've neverpunched anybody, I haven't done
drugs, I've managed to just stayon the right side of the law.
But I can so understand howthese boys don't, and girls.
(17:51):
I always say, we don't have toforget the girls, only 4 percent
of the prison population isfemale.
However, one of my therapistshas worked in female prisons for
20 years, She's ADHD and shesaid, Sarah, it's exactly the
same in the female prisons.
It's pretty much all of them.
So I don't forget the girls.
There's only 4 percent of them,but we think most of them are
ADHD as well.
I've only worked in maleprisons, but I can say hand on
(18:12):
heart.
I, when I came out of theprisons, I said it's roughly
eight or nine out of 10.
And then I.
Completely randomly on aFacebook group for ADHD came
across a mental health nursewho'd worked in the prison
system for 20 years.
And she said to me, she said,Sarah, I've been keeping an
unofficial record for the last20 years, and it's 85 percent of
(18:33):
them are ADHD.
And I said, Oh my God, howrandom is that?
My absolute random figure was10.
85%.
And I was like, wow, howunbelievable.
And she said, no, you're right.
She said, I've been keeping anunofficial record.
It's 85%.
So we've ever since then, thatwas in 2015, 16, I've been
banging a lone drum.
(18:54):
That drum is now no longeralone.
I've got people with me now, butfor six, eight years, I was
saying, Excuse me, the prisonsare full of ADHD, it's
disgusting, do something aboutit.
And it.
wasn't until I linked up withsome police officers who are
also ADHD, and they've helpedwith this hugely, and now it's
much more talked about, andchange is happening.
(19:14):
Change is happening at last, butit literally, this year, 2025,
I've been talking about this for10 years, and it's only in the
last two, maximum three, thatpeople have started to talk
about it.
Paul (19:26):
the scary thing for that, with me, is that there are so
many things I could jump offonto.
I can feel my shiny objectsyndrome going crazy when you're
talking.
And there's almost every talkingpoint you raised, I had
something I wanted to say aboutit, and I wanted to interrupt
you and tell you what I thought.
Not because I want to be rude,but because my brain would let,
and it has, right?
I've let go of some of thethings.
(19:46):
And now I've forgotten what theywere that I wanted to interrupt
you about, right?
That's, and it's, but it's scaryand it's horrible.
My mum does the same thing.
My mum, yeah, I do.
I, I, I, if I'm really in, Ihave to say something about it,
it gets written down and I'llcome back to it.
But half the time, I can'tremember why I wrote down what I
wrote down.
Um, but the, the, the terrifyingthing for me is, I'm looking at
(20:08):
my son at the moment and we'relooking at assessment and we've
been told it's seven years to bediagnosed.
At the current rates.
And that, that queue is growing.
That's in our local authority.
The other local authority nearus is four to five years.
At seven years, he's seven yearsold now, he's going to be well
into senior school before hegets formally diagnosed.
We're very lucky that
Sarah (20:28):
forget it,
Paul (20:29):
junior school and infant school are very supportive.
They're very helpful and they'rekeen to, they don't wait for
assessments to be done to treatchildren in their own individual
capacity, which is brilliant.
I love that.
However, I know that.
Senior school's going to be adifferent story.
Sarah (20:47):
It's good, but it's not good enough.
Because if he's ADHD, themedication is going to
absolutely transform him.
And I get very what's the word?
Frustrated.
No, worse, stronger than that.
Annoyed.
Anybody who thinks it's okay totell anybody that there's a
seven year waiting list forsomething, no, just absolutely
(21:07):
not.
Absolutely not.
You, you cannot do that to achild.
I don't know if you know this, apsychiatrist told me this years
ago and I've never heard it fromanybody else, but this ADHD
psychiatrist did tell me when Isaid to him something about my
memory, I said, Oh, my memory isshocking.
And he said, don't be surprised.
He said the brain okay.
This is the quote.
A brain needs to think a thoughtfor so many split seconds for it
(21:30):
to be stored as a memory.
And an ADHD brain rarely thinksa thought long enough for it to
be stored as a memory.
Yeah?
So if you think, if your son'sseven and they're saying, oh, go
away till you're 14, that'sseven years of education, most
of which isn't going to go in,because he won't be thinking of
the thoughts long enough forthem to be stored.
(21:51):
So no, we do not accept sevenyears.
We go different routes.
We go NHS, second choice, rightto choose.
We go private, we go charities,we go some other route, because
it is, it is not acceptable tosay to anybody, and I'm not just
talking about ADHD people here,it's not acceptable to say to
anybody, you've got to wait forseven years.
No, it's not.
Paul (22:08):
then it's, everyone I speak to has this battle.
Everyone.
I don't know another parent thatdoesn't have, or it's a battle.
Cause we thought we were quitelucky at the beginning.
We had a doctor who supportedus, we had a school who
supported us.
Oh yeah, we'll get him, we'llget him.
And then it starts with the, ohwe've suspended right to choose
at the moment because it's toobusy.
Cause we're getting too manypeople referring to us who are
(22:30):
also going through the NHS routeand we're doubling up on maybe
if your NHS route wasn't solong, we wouldn't need to go
right to choose, therefore itwouldn't be so swamped.
Is it any surprise?
There's a reason we're broughtin right to choose, cause the
NHS was swamped.
And then there's the wholeconversation around that's fine,
but you can get it doneprivately, but we at the NHS
don't have to accept thatassessment and we don't have to.
(22:51):
If you want medication, you haveto come through the NHS.
Sarah (22:53):
And that
Paul (22:53):
And it becomes so complex and ridiculous.
Sarah (22:56):
Yes, it does.
And, and
Paul (22:57):
so
Sarah (22:59):
no, I just want to
Paul (22:59):
no, I was,
Sarah (23:00):
It's pretty much the same all over the country that there
are pockets where it's working.
I'll tell you one pocket.
My very first prison boy, veryfirst ever client in a prison,
prison, his daughter is ragingADHD and she's only five.
And she just managed to getassessed and diagnosed at the
age of five through chems.
(23:21):
I'm trying to think where theyare, Enfield.
North London, Enfield, on theborder of Hertfordshire.
And I think they first referredto her when she was 2 or 3,
because it was very obvious frombirth, really, that she was very
severely ADHD.
Both her parents were ADHD.
And she's only, she's justturned 6 this year, but the
actual diagnosis was last yearwhen she was 5.
(23:41):
So there are pockets where youcan get a review, a proper
assessment via CAMHS, and youget the right treatment, and
she's going to be diagnosed, notdiagnosed, she's going to be
medicated, she needs to be andthat's happened, so that's not a
seven year waiting list, she'sbeen diagnosed by the age of
five.
Because the organisation I run,my sort of bread and butter job,
if you like, is I run HeadstuffADHD Therapy.
(24:03):
Now that came about because whenI qualified as a counsellor,
pretty much the same time I wasdiagnosed.
And I thought I'll just pop ADHDon my website.
Don't know if I'll ever meetanother ADHD person, ever, but
I'll pop it on, popped it on andthen became a specialist
overnight because suddenlypeople came to me.
At that point, a lot ofcounsellors for ADHD were not
(24:23):
coming out of the closet.
They were well back in theirclosets.
They were terrified that itwould lose some clients.
I, mouth almighty.
I, when I was diagnosed I wasthrilled.
I was absolutely thrilled toknow that I'd got something.
It had a name, and I became verywhat's the word dynamic about
it, I was like, Yeah, I've gotthis! Other people have probably
got it and don't know.
(24:43):
And it's It's been lifetransforming for me, it's
validated everything I've beenthrough.
So I was out and proud from theminute I got it, straight on my
website, and then I had loadsand loads and loads of people
come to me and go, Oh my god, doyou not find it loses your
client?
I'm like, no, it's getting meloads of clients.
Don't be ridiculous, I'm gettingswamped.
So I've ended up with a teamnow, I've not counted them
lately, but we're, we'reapproaching a hundred, somewhere
(25:06):
in the 80s, 90s.
Most of them fully qualifiedcounsellors.
This is where we differ frommost people.
Um, ADHD coaching courses arepopping up ten a penny, popping
up ten a day.
It's ridiculous, but they'renot, they're not great.
Some of them are good, most ofthem are not.
They're very, they're far tooshort and they don't cover
enough for you to work ADHDperson.
(25:28):
Show me an ADHD person whodoesn't have trauma.
Who doesn't have relationshipissues, doesn't have addiction
issues, doesn't have self esteemissues.
We've all got varying degrees ofall of this and that needs a
counsellor.
It doesn't need a coach.
So we do have some coaches onour team.
We've got about 10 or 15 ofthem, and that, but these are
very, very highly qualifiedones.
They're not somebody who's donea six week course.
(25:48):
Do you know what I mean?
They're people that have studiedfor years, coaching.
But the vast majority of us arefully qualified counsellors.
So, That's my bread and butterjob.
Although I, and I did counselfor a long time.
I counseled between 2013 androughly 2020.
And then I stopped.
Unless people are absolutelydesperate.
And if a teenager's on their wayto prison and adamant that
(26:11):
they're going to carry on thatpath.
Or adamant they're not ADHD.
I do, I do like them.
I had one of them recently.
Absolutely adamant he's notADHD.
But doing it large on the drugs,on the offending, on the
promiscuity, all of it.
And I had to convince him he wasADHD.
I don't mind those.
I do a challenge, but I don'tsee clients regularly anymore.
I just don't have time.
So now what I'm doing is, I do alot of training, which I love.
(26:35):
Go into schools all over the UK.
Just about to go to Australiafor two months.
I've already booked into fourschools in Australia hoping for
more.
But I'm doing four schools inAustralia.
I'm also doing a talk atBrisbane University about the
link between ADHD and sexoffending, which isn't something
a lot of people like to talkabout, but I know about it
because I've worked with ADHDsex offenders.
So now I do training a lot and Iwrite books.
(26:57):
Um, I've just written The PrisonCounselor, which is all about
the amount of ADHD in prisonsand where it's hiding, where
it's hidden.
with lots of boys who've beentold they've outgrown it it was
a childhood behaviouraldisorder, so they've been taken
off their meds, and then bang,where do they find themselves?
Within a year or two, they're inprison.
So there's that cohort.
Then you've got the ones whowere diagnosed as a child and
(27:17):
genuinely, genuinely themselvesthink they've outgrown it, and
it was a childhood thing, andthey don't even believe they've
got it anymore, so you have totalk them round into thinking,
no, actually, potentially, it'swhat got them diagnosed.
Put you in here in the firstplace.
Then you've got a massive chunkwho've got absolutely no idea
that they've got anything, butthey are prolific offenders.
(27:37):
They might have been in prison20 times.
And a lot of their offending isoften to do with self medicating
their ADHD.
So a lot of people are in therebecause they've been alcohol,
let's use alcohol as the easyexample.
You'll get quite a lot of peoplein prison who are alcoholics and
all their offending has eitherbeen stealing.
stealing.
(27:57):
stealing to fund alcohol,stealing alcohol, getting into
fights when they're drunk.
So often GBH, ABH, evenattempted murder.
I've worked with people whenthey've been really rolling
drunk.
In fact, one boy was done formurder.
He didn't actually do anything.
He just kicked somebody, butanyway, he was so drunk because
he was ADHD and self medicatingthat he was actually in prison
(28:18):
for murder.
He didn't murder them.
I must have to make that clear,but he was like an accessory.
Then they're in prison forthings like criminal damage.
Which they do when they'redrunk, they'll kick something or
smash a pot by accident orwhatever.
And then they get put in prisonfor a fray.
A lot of boys are in there for afray.
So that's purely somebody who'sself medicating their alcohol.
(28:38):
And I've met loads of them thatare in prison for all that sort
of thing.
And also domestic violence,because when they're drunk,
That's when they will scream attheir girlfriend, when that's
when they might chuck something,that's when they'll be more
heavy handed than they might bewhen if they were sober.
So domestic violence is alsolinked with the self medicating.
So the prisons are chock a blockwith ADHD in all different
(29:00):
capacities.
So diagnosed, undiagnosed, someof them think they've got
autism.
It's quite fascinating goingback through all my notes, which
I've just done to write thisbook, all my prison notes, which
I've kept.
And there was one boy who, infact, it was that five year
old's father who said he thoughthe was autistic and could I
bring in an autism screener,which I did.
(29:21):
I took it in and he didn't scoreanything.
And I took it away.
And then this was years beforemy ADHD diagnosis.
I had no clue to think, I wonderif you've got something else or,
I just literally did as I wastold, bring an ADA, bring an
autism screener in.
He didn't score high enough.
We thought nothing more of it.
It was about another seven,eight years before I went back
(29:41):
to that boy, found him, I gothim diagnosed with ADHD.
There's loads of people in therethat know they've got something
going on, don't know what it is.
One other group that's in there,there's a lot of boys in prison
who hate themselves, becausethey know that the minute they
go out, They're going to dosomething dodgy and they're
going to end up back in prison,but they don't know why they're
(30:02):
going to do it again.
Classic example is a lovely,lovely boy I work with in
Aylesbury, Young Offenders.
He said, oh, he said, I justwish, Sarah, that I could be the
nice bloke that I am here,sitting, talking to you, being
nice, having a cup of tea, beingsensible and grown up.
He said, but I know, the minuteI walk out of prison, he said,
I'm going to see a handbag.
I'm going to see a purse or I'mgoing to see a car door that's
(30:23):
open.
And he said, and I turned intothat other one.
And I can't, I know, I can't notdo that because I've tried so
many times not to do it.
Now that boy was one of the oneswho was diagnosed ADHD as a
child and taken off the meds.
And if I'd have been counsellinghim now, I'd have been saying, I
know, I know, I know.
Why now?
It's your impulsivity.
It's your compulsivity becauseyou've done that in the past and
(30:44):
it's given you excitement.
You know you're not going to beable to not do that when you get
out.
And that's why You think, thatyou know you can't be a good
person because those temptationsare still going to be there, and
you know that you haven't gotthe, whatever it is within.
He used to say, I'm weak willed,I've got no moral compass,
Paul (31:01):
I've got no
Sarah (31:02):
and what was the other thing he'd say?
Something like, I haven't gotstrength of character, and he
used to really criticise himselffor that And I really regret
that I didn't know more at thattime to say no, it's not that.
It's actually your compulsivebrain that is going to not allow
you to walk past a handbag or apurse or an opened car.
And that's a big chunk of themin prison.
(31:23):
They hate themselves becausethey know that when they get out
they're going to do the samething.
And that's because they're notmedicated for their ADHD.
So of course they're going tokeep doing the same stuff.
That's a tragedy.
I'm sorry.
Paul (31:34):
And having worked 10 years, 10 years on one side of
the thin blue line myself, I cansee a lot of what you're seeing
in the experiences I had, and Iunderstand a lot more now.
And I was I've, there's a whole,I'll be honest, Sarah, me and
you could talk about thissubject for hours and hours and
hours, and it's probably apodcast on its own.
What I would say is that I thinkthere's, there's a couple of
(31:57):
things that particularly makeyou stand out to me, as opposed
to a lot of the other.
ADHD experts that I've heard, orcertainly talk around parenting,
and one is that you identify thesymptoms of ADHD children, but
you also believe that some ofthe symptoms need to be managed.
(32:17):
And it's not a case of just, ohthey're ADHD, so that's an
excuse, and just let them getaway with it, and that leads to
the behaviour that lands them inprison.
And a specific example was, youwere talking about lying, and
we, ADHD people can lie forexcitement, or because they
don't want to, cause it'sboring, they're making it moric.
All of those things, and yourstatement at the end of the book
(32:37):
was, and it needs to be nippedin the bud now.
And I love that, because, toosoft.
leads to bad situations down theline, but at the same time, we
need to help people understandhow to cope with, with what
they've got, how to understandthat they need to have something
that they need to cope with halfthe
Sarah (32:58):
100%.
And that's a, that's a, go on,sorry, carry on.
no, I was going to
Paul (33:02):
I was going to say that
Sarah (33:03):
a brilliant one to pick on, because when I say about
lying, there are some idiots whogo, I've never lied, that's
outrageous that you should evensuggest it.
No, not everybody lies, but alot of people do.
And I did, but I only didthrough my teens.
How typical is that?
Just through the puberty thing,that's when I lied.
And it was only ever.
to get something.
So I would say, Oh, I've had areally, I actually use this one.
(33:25):
I say to my mum, Oh, we had areally pathetic salad at
lunchtime.
I'm absolutely ravenous.
And she said, Oh, did you?
That's outrageous.
Go and have some more bread,have some more, we hadn't, but
it was to get something.
I used to steal out my mum'spurse again to get food when I
was out compulsive eating.
And I did put arms and legs onthings to make things more
exciting.
But the reason it has beennipped in the bard, is, as
(33:46):
you've said
Paul (33:47):
been
Sarah (33:47):
it doesn't lead anywhere good.
You can't keep on doing thatbecause ultimately, I hate to
say it, but pretty mucheverybody in prison is a damn
good liar.
Paul (33:56):
everybody a
Sarah (33:56):
You don't, get many honest drug dealers.
They're very good at lying, verygood at pretending, very good at
hiding.
And that's where it leads to.
It leads to dangerousactivities.
Um, so What I always say thatwith these traits, like lying,
brilliant example, is you needto explain to a child.
So If you catch a child out,don't have a go at them there
and then.
Always leave it till the nextday, so it's completely random,
(34:17):
and always pick when they're ina good mood.
But just say, actually, youmight not even know this, but
your brain actually does some ofthese things.
And some of them are fantastic,absolutely phenomenal, and
you're going to achievemassively.
But there's a couple, this isone of them that you've got to
be aware of.
Because your brain naturallydoes want to put arms and legs,
oh, lying's not the greatest ofwords, not being skimpy with the
(34:38):
truth is better.
or putting arms and legs onthings.
Paul (34:40):
and legs
Sarah (34:40):
And the way you word it is very, very important.
If you make them understand thatthat's the way their brain kind
of leads them, but that's thesort of thing that's going to
get them in trouble.
So actually, to try and be awareof it, and also never to worry
about admitting the truth.
If they can, if they can lie oneday, they're never going to tell
you at the time that they'velied and they're really sorry.
But if you give them a day, 48hours, and always give them
(35:04):
various ways of doing it.
I think I've said this in thebook.
Allow them to write it, text it,voice note it, put a note under
your bedroom door.
Whatever way works for them,that they can say, Actually, you
are right, I was lying.
But I've got, I've got back toyou within 48 hours, so I don't
get told off, do I?
Mm
Paul (35:23):
particularly I love about what you've done.
We've talked a lot today aboutthe negative consequences of
having near DHD and the path itcan lead into prison and the
serious consequences of that.
But what I really liked was whenwe first talked and you sold it
to me as when you're talking toa young person, it's very much a
superpower.
And I believe this.
(35:43):
Absolutely believe this.
It's a superpower and it's agift to have ADHD.
It doesn't mean you're going toend up in prison.
It's just that the system hasfailed so many people and never
taught them with, never taughtthem ways to deal with ADHD,
never gave them ways to cope.
(36:03):
And never had the supportmechanisms in place in order to
make that happen, compoundedgenerationally.
So I just wanted to, as a kindof last note before we sign the
episode off, is I really lovethat, the way that you pitched
that to me, in that it's reallya privilege to have ADHD,
Sarah (36:22):
Oh, 100%! 100%! percent Yeah! and you're absolutely
right, the people that are inprison, they have not had the,
they've not had anything,they've not had parents who've
been able to support them,they've not had the diagnosis at
the right time, they'vecertainly not been medicated,
they've not had the support atschool, they've had very little,
and that's why they end up wherethey are.
But people who are supported,one of my clients, my private
clients, this year, he qualifiesas a doctor.
(36:43):
And he's going to be aphenomenal doctor, because he's
very compassionate, very kind,very caring, and he's just done
seven years training to be adoctor.
We end up in very high places aswell.
And I always say to people that,go, oh, it's a disability, and
it's a SEND need, and it's aSENCO job, and it's a this and a
that.
No, excuse me.
I was never a SEND kid.
I was never under a SENCO.
Paul (37:03):
a
Sarah (37:04):
do I own several businesses, several properties,
and a charity?
Yes.
Are all the very successfulpeople in the world.
When I say successful,politicians, actors, musicians,
comedians, all these people,sports people.
Who's the top in every single,area you look at?
They're ADHD.
Our best politicians are ADHD.
(37:25):
The, the, Hollywood is chock ablock with ADHD.
Everybody from Whoopi Goldberg,to Tom Hanks, to Tom Cruise, to
Britney Spears, to JustinTimberlake, to Will.
I.
Am, to, to everybody that'sanybody is ADHD.
And it's the same in the sports.
You look at every single sportwho are the ones that are
absolutely outstanding andbrilliant
Paul (37:46):
outstanding and
Sarah (37:47):
Simone Biles being just one example.
So, yes, I am, I am the prison'schampion, if you like, and I'm
the one who would always putthose boys in prison first,
because nobody else does.
And I do, because I know loadsof them, and I absolutely love
them all, and I know thatthey're not bad people.
they've just had a real toughstart to life, and they've ended
up in prison.
(38:08):
And I always say to people,please don't hate them.
They hate themselves way morethan you ever need to hate them.
They've got crippling low selfesteem, they think they're a
waste of space, some of themeven take their own lives
because they just think theworld's better off without me.
And it's not.
If we can actually get to them,get them diagnosed and
medicated, which we've done witha lot of my ex prisoners,
they're all out now, they're allin successful relationships,
(38:29):
they're all working, they're allT Total, Don't, not doing drugs,
not getting into fights, becausethey're diagnosed and medicated.
So, I will always focus on thoseboys in prison, cause it's
nobody else's top priority, Butit's mine to change the criminal
justice system in this country.
We need to be mandatoryscreening for ADHD.
But not at the end.
We don't just need to be doingit in the criminal justice
(38:49):
system.
We need to be doing it inschools.
We need to catch these kids whenthey are five.
Paul (38:53):
when they are
Sarah (38:54):
Not 25.
And it's all too late.
Their self esteem's beendestroyed.
They've got a criminal record aslong as your arm.
And, and they, their mentalhealth is is bad, they're
probably addicted to something,parents are dead.
That's too late.
Let's start screening them atfive.
Let's pick up as many people asquickly as we possibly can, get
the right support in place, getthe right meds in place if
(39:15):
necessary, and then watch themthrive.
Because They will, theyabsolutely will.
Paul (39:20):
absolutely will.
I love it.
And that's exactly why I wantedto have you as a charity
partner.
'cause I think it's a fantasticinitiative and a fantastic
mission and vision to championas part of the show And it
certainly aligns with my ownpersonal experience.
And so looking forward to, and Ithink what, what, what I'd like
to do, Sarah, is we'd love tocatch back up with you again in
(39:41):
about six months or so whenyou've been to Australia and
you've come back.
And to hear a little bit moreabout how you're getting on with
some of the initiatives, you'vegot the tests and trials that
you've got going on with
Sarah (39:50):
six months is a perfect time because we have got pilots
and trials going on with so manydifferent places, homeless
organizations, addiction,prisons, probation, all over.
So in six months I'll have a lotmore facts and figures for
everybody.
But I will just say now, thevery early pilots that we've got
the figures for, they're allcoming in exactly that figure,
85%.
Paul (40:08):
85%.
Sarah (40:09):
It's a big problem in the criminal justice system.
It's a big problem, but we'reup, we're up to it.
We are going to solve thisbecause we're passionate about
it and we've got a fantasticteam.
And I'm thrilled that you're,going to join up with us as
well.
I thank you for that because weneed more exposure.
for what we're doing.
Paul (40:25):
And if you're listening along to this at home watching
this and you want to find out abit more about the work of ADHD,
Liberty or Headstuff the linksare all in the bottom of the
show notes.
Please do go along, have a look.
There's some awesome, awesomeresources down there.
Thank you very much for anexciting episode, Sarah.
I loved hearing that story.
I'm sure everyone at home did aswell.
And I will speak to you in thenot too distant future.
(40:47):
Thank you, bye bye.
Amazing, thank you so much.
Thank you
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