November 5, 2025 • 39 mins
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Kristen Sweeney’s story begins with Broadway dreams—but her real stage would be the boardroom. From training in musical theatre to founding a strategic content agency for the life sciences and B2B sectors, Kristen has learned that communication isn't just about talking—it's about translating expertise into impact.
In this episode of MarketPulse: Pros and Pioneers, Kristen dives deep into the challenges that plague subject-matter experts: perfectionism, overthinking, and the fear of putting unfinished ideas into the world. She explains why so many technical professionals struggle to connect their knowledge with audiences—and what leaders can do to fix that. If you've ever sat on content too long, rewritten the same paragraph ten times, or struggled to turn brilliance into business impact, this conversation will resonate deeply.
You'll hear how maternity leave changed her approach to leadership, why engineers often can't communicate (and why it's not their fault), and what B2B marketers are still getting wrong in content strategy. Plus, how her time on stage uniquely prepared her for business life.
This one’s packed with insights you’ll want to implement immediately.
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Show Links:
Guest Website: https://everylittleword.co
Guest LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kristen-sweeney-every-little-word
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MarketPulse YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@marketpulsepodcast
Javelin Content Website: https://www.javelincontent.com
Paul Banks on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/paul-banks007
Special Thanks to our Charity Partner: ADHD Liberty
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Paul (00:02):
If you've ever second guessed your voice or edited
your message or felt like yourcontent didn't reflect your
expertise, this episode verywell might explain why Kristen
Sweeney is the founder and CEOof every little word, a content
strategy and communicationsagency for expert led businesses
(00:24):
in fields like life sciences.
Higher ed and professionalservices, but long before she
was helping clients shareprecise messaging and find their
voice.
Kristen was on stage quiteliterally pursuing a master's in
musical theatre.
Her love of language andstructure and rhythm never left,
and it simply evolved intohelping complex thinkers make
(00:46):
meaning of their ideas with abackground span in editorial
work ops, leadership, contentmarketing, and internal
communications.
Kristen has spent the last 15 ormore years quietly powering the
message behind big ideas andbreaking the perfectionism that
keeps so many expert led brandsfrom seeing what really needs to
(01:08):
be said.
I love that bio, your, Kristen.
I love it.
I love what you are about and Ican't wait to dig into some more
of that.
Welcome to the show.
Thank you for being a guest.
Kristen (01:17):
you so much.
I'm happy to be here.
Paul (01:20):
Genuinely, it's my pleasure.
I mean, I, we were just kind ofseeing off air before, before we
kicked the episode off, andbefore I dive into a little bit
of your background and storythat I'm a big believer,
although I'm video first and Ialways talk about video being at
the top of the content pyramid.
Video very rarely means anythingwithout good thought provoking
(01:40):
copy That gives it context.
Especially when you're talkingabout short form video, long
form video doesn't get watchedas much.
Short form video is where we'reall at these days, but yet even
that means nothing without theright message, the right tone,
the right voice, and the rightcontext to challenge our
thoughts and thinking and pushesonto the next idea.
(02:03):
So I can't wait to dig furtherinto every little word and your
background.
I think it's gonna be aphenomenal episode.
Kristen (02:09):
Oh, wonderful.
Yes, and it's interesting whatyou were saying, Paul, because I
think that, you know, one of thebenefits of something like
video, we'll just kind of jumpright in here, is.
Is, it does have the opportunityfor some of that like
personality and charisma andsome of the things that can't
necessarily be conveyed inwriting.
Where writing has the advantage,I think is demands a level of
(02:33):
precision.
So I can speak to you and wavemy arms around and make half
sentences and you get the gistof what I'm trying to say.
And that can work in a virtual,like when you can see me.
But when.
Kind of the best of both worlds,I think, is when you combine
something that's really precise,really well thought out, super
intentional and then maybe youdo add in certain contexts like
(02:57):
extra element.
There's a really nice, I think,opportunity for kind of blending
both.
Paul (03:02):
Absolutely is.
I think they coexist togetherin, in absolute harmony.
let's rewind though.
A Masters in musical theatre.
Explain that path to that point,if you would Like.
What did Kristen at school do?
Why?
Why?
What triggered your interest inmusic?
I.
Kristen (03:19):
So it was interesting.
I had a very varied backgroundgrowing up as a kid.
I was super academic, very highachiever performer there, one of
the valedictorians of my class.
And I also had always had aninterest in the arts.
And so when it came time tochoose my path for undergrad, I,
I kind of thought, if.
(03:40):
If performing is something thatI want to do for my life or for
part of my life, like now is thetime to kind of commit to it.
So I studied musical theatre inmy undergrad.
I got a second degree in.
Medieval studies'cause that's agreat backup for performance
degree.
And when I was, when all wassaid and done, I felt like I
(04:00):
needed a little bit moretraining.
And so I went on to pursue amaster's at the Boston
Conservatory, which is now partof Berkeley in musical theatre.
for me, I mean, I.
It's funny because the work I donow is so behind the scenes in
many ways, but I have alwaysloved being on stage,
performing, singing, dancing,acting, putting myself in
someone's story and helping be apart of interpreting that story
(04:25):
sharing it more broadly.
And in that way, I think there'sstill some parallels to what I
do today.
Paul (04:29):
I absolutely think there is.
I can see it exactly.
I think it's a beautifuljourney.
What triggered you to pivot awayfrom musical theatre then?
Because surely that's a calling.
It's something everybody lovesto do.
What made you think there wassomething more out in the world
for you to achieve thancontinuing on in musical
theatre?
Kristen (04:45):
Yeah.
So to be really honest I thinkit was.
Partly kind of growing up andsome other things I wanted in my
life and partly the path that Ihad there.
So, I lived in New York,performed regionally for close
to 10 years, and the end of that10 years, my life looked a bit
different.
Had burned out a little bit onthe audition lifestyle.
(05:06):
I had not made it to Broadway,although I had performed at
theatres around the country.
and I was.
In a serious relationship withsomeone wanted to start a
family.
And I really found myselfthinking like the, about what
the kind of, for maybe one ofthe first times, like what is
the ultimate goal here?
And if you are a theatreperformer, the ultimate goal is
(05:28):
eight shows a week, six nights,six nights a week, pretty
Paul (05:32):
yeah.
Kristen (05:32):
are waiting to go to work every day.
there's a lot to love aboutthat, but it's also hard and.
At that point in time, I wasready to kind of explore what
else might be out there becauseit didn't.
for for my whole life, it didn'thave the same kind of appeal
that it once had with the otherthings I wanted.
(05:54):
And I ended up moving to Boston.
I got married now I live inFlorida.
I have two kids.
So, you know, life took adifferent, and, you know,
honestly a little bit moreconventional path, but I
certainly took the long wayaround to getting there, which
I'm happy about.
Paul (06:07):
I always find this interesting, right?
When I talk to American guestsand when I'm doing a networking
with Americans, I always find itfascinating'cause you guys have
such a vast country and allthese states that make up the
country.
And England would probably fitin most of the states in
America, four or five, if notmore times over.
And we think like in England,like very rarely move too far
(06:28):
away from where you grew up,right?
Most people grew up live, workand die in the same sort of
geographical area where you grewup.
Some people might move from thenorth of the country to the
south of the country.
That's about as far as it gets,or south to the north if they
retiring.
And yet I speak to lords ofAmericans who.
Like yourself, like exactly thatsort of journey.
(06:49):
Oh, I grew up in New York, thenwe moved to California and now
we live in Kentucky.
And it's that's thousands andthousands of miles.
It blows my mind as to, youknow, I think it's amazing that
you've got that flexibility tomove within the country and
you've got so many differentclimates and opportunities and
rural areas, suburbanmetropolitans.
(07:09):
I just think it's a fascinatingjourney that.
As a country, you guys can havethat variety within your lives
and actively seek it out.
What's been the best part ofmoving around the country that,
like what, you know, what haveyou enjoyed about the different
areas?
Kristen (07:22):
For me, I think
Paul (07:25):
I.
Kristen (07:25):
I really relish new experiences, so that kind of
carries over to the work I dotoday.
What, every time we work with anew client or we're, you know,
learning about their business orlearning a new industry, so I
would say yeah, just kind ofadapting to that environment and
seeing what lessons thisparticular experience has to
teach me.
Paul (07:45):
Complete curve ball, but what's your favorite place to be
in New York?
Kristen (07:49):
Oh my gosh.
I have some just such wonderfulmemories.
Sheep's Meadow in Central Park,picnicking with friends.
Paul (07:57):
Amazing.
I love it.
I ask because I'm yet to visitAmerica.
Like it just hasn't, theopportunity hasn't arrived for
me.
Like I was working a lot ofhours when I was younger.
I've got a family now, youngfamily now, and it's kind of,
it's on the bucket list.
Like I definitely will come toAmerica at some point, but it
just kind of never reallyhappened yet.
So I'm always curious to know,you know, as a British person,
we see a lot of movies andtheatre, like theatre in it.
(08:20):
A lot of America I find is, Ithink from speaking to people,
it's quite dramatised Comparedto what's actually important
when you get to America.
So it's always interesting tohear what people who've lived in
different areas, like what yourthoughts are on what's important
in different you know, for anEnglish person thinking, oh, I
wanna go to you know, MadisonSquare Gardens, or, you know,
these sorts of places.
And quite often the answer froman American is something
(08:42):
radically different.
I love it.
Kristen (08:44):
Yeah.
Paul (08:44):
so.
Kristen (08:45):
I could see that.
Paul (08:46):
So So choosing, I guess we talk about your work with today.
You choose to work with somevery specific client types.
What led you on that path towork with, you know, higher ed
professional services doctors.
Why that?
'cause that's gonna be thehardest route you can go to
(09:07):
doing what you're doing, right?
That's the hardest ask.
Kristen (09:10):
It's interesting.
I would say the choice kind ofcame from looking at what we
were doing and where we felt wereally excelled with our
skillset as a team, with my kindof personal interests.
And it turned out that there'sthis fun and interesting
intersection between people whoare real experts have a lot of
expertise, and that expertisekind of tends to power their
(09:31):
organization in some way.
Those people also often whatthey're doing could be quite
technical.
It could be quite complex, andthere's usually some kind of
tension or struggle to sort ofunlock the knowledge that they
have and actually share it in away that then makes sense for
achieving marketing andcommunication objectives.
(09:51):
And what we found is that wereally excel when we can be that
intermediary that collaborateswith those experts.
Then kind of reframes and canhelp create the content and the
campaigns that are achievingreally specific goals for the
organization.
Paul (10:12):
So what,
Kristen (10:12):
I would say that's the thing they all kind of have in
common in a lot of cases.
Paul (10:52):
what was the point when you decided that was what you
were gonna specialise in as abusiness?
Did it start out that way?
Did you always intend that to beyour client base?
Kristen (11:01):
So, not specifically in terms of industry, but I would
say it started out that waybecause my first few clients
were doctors.
I was writing, I was on my ownghost writing for them.
And then we had a long stintwhere we had a.
A close partnership and we werebasically working with probably
50 small manufacturers precisionmachine shops.
(11:22):
And if you don't think that iscomplicated, try talking to an
engineer in that space orsomeone who was estimating a
project.
so I would say that it was acombination of.
personal interest and I'm supercurious.
One of our company's core valuesis hungry to learn.
And so this idea of just likealways wanting to know more lent
itself really well, it felt alittle wasted on that curiosity
(11:46):
felt wasted on something that'stoo straightforward, if that
makes sense.
it's like you don't really needwhat I can do really well.
And then kind of built the teamlooking for people like me who
are really wanted to take thatcuriosity.
I.
From the perspective of actuallydoing the writing and getting
really curious about how thoseideas worked and what is the
best way to put these wordstogether, that's gonna convey
(12:10):
the message we wanna get across.
Paul (12:12):
And so what was the.
Pivot point for you where, Imean, so one moment you're
working in musical theatre,that's your life.
You've realised that somethingneeds to change.
What was the point where youstepped away from that to go and
work and get into marketing andexplore that?
Kristen (12:30):
Yeah, so.
I would say there is a pivotpoint and also it happened
gradually.
So for many years I.
My, my, the technical name of mybusiness, and I think you'll
appreciate this, is called thisRenaissance Woman because it was
this giant umbrella for all thedifferent stuff that I did and
that was acting.
There's also a whole multi-yearcareer as a yoga teacher in
(12:54):
there as well.
All the different side gigs thatI was working, you know, I've
been a restaurant host, I'vebeen a personal assistant.
I've been, you know, areceptionist.
I've been sorts of other roles.
but freelance writing frompretty early on was always a
part of that.
And basically what happened is Iwas living in Boston and in 2019
(13:16):
I had my oldest daughter, and Icame back from my maternity
leave and I around at what I wasdoing and, you know.
you have kids, they can, theychange everything, right?
So, it was an interesting timefor me to step back and say what
do I want things to look likenow that there's this third
person in the mix?
what I realised was basicallytwo things.
(13:37):
One was that I.
I didn't really wanna keeprunning all over the greater
Boston area teaching one-offyoga classes that, schedule
wasn't gonna work for me.
And two was I took a lookfinancially and my economic
engine for the last severalyears had been my freelance
writing, which I was basicallypaying zero attention to.
(13:58):
So I was doing great work for myclients, but not trying to grow
the business.
And so that was really themoment where I was like, you
know, this seems like it canoffer me.
the flexibility I'm looking forbetter financially.
I love the work and so whatwould happen if I started to
actually put my attention ontoit?
What would come out of giving itsome focus and actively trying
(14:21):
to help it grow?
So that was really, I would saythe pivot for me, it was kind of
like a slow burn and then adecision all at once.
Paul (14:27):
What made you decide to grow beyond just a one person
team?
Because I know for me, like.
We're a husband and wife team,like my wife does a few hours a
week, which she helps withchildcare.
I do pretty much full timeduring the weekend.
And do you know what I'm notready to move beyond that and
I've done leadership for 15years, right?
Like I'm jaded with leadershipsomewhat.
I don't have any interest inmanaging people directly or
(14:50):
leading people for some time.
And it might change in thefuture, but I'm really not there
yet.
What?
Kind of encouraged you to decidethat you needed to build a team
around what you were doing.
'cause that's very brave, Ithink.
Kristen (15:02):
Oh, thank you.
Well, I would say two things.
I think that the landscape, evenwhen I did that five, six years
ago, was really different.
And I think that honestly withAI and automation and different
kinds of systems, I probablycould have extended myself
longer today than I would havebeen able to do back then.
(15:23):
that being said.
When I was a one person show,there were a lot of things that
I could recognise weren't thehighest value use of my time.
And so the first thing I did isI got a va, right?
And that's like super commonhire.
And really the tipping pointfor, oh, we're a company now,
was this partnership we hadwhere basically they provided us
(15:46):
with a big sales pipeline.
So the manufacturing clients Italked about, they sold a lot
faster than I did.
And so all of a sudden you know,I think it was also during
COVID.
So basically my husband and Iwere working from like 5:00 AM
till 11:00 PM in shifts.
And I was just slammed withwork.
So that's when I made my firstcouple of hires.
(16:06):
And that.
It kind of happened to me in away.
I'm really glad for it.
We've been bigger at points thanwe are today.
We're like a tight, small teamtoday, and I think I've
definitely settled into myselfmore as a leader.
But really the impetus was likedemand that I could not keep up
with.
Paul (16:24):
I I just think that's, so essentially what we're seeing is
that trigger of having thatreally reliable partner.
It give you the courage to, tokind of financially just splash
out because you knew thatrevenue could come in as long as
you could deliver on it in aconsistent way.
I like that.
It's an interesting lesson forpeople who are out there that
are kind of considering whethernow's the right time to take the
(16:44):
Because For a lot of people,they don't have that pipeline
and they're almost kind of, do Ijust carry on, burning myself
out a bit longer or do I takethe leap now?
And I think the danger is a lotof the time we take someone on
for a few hours per week.
But because you're taking themon for a few hours per week, you
are not getting the highestquality candidate because the
highest quality candidates willsay, no, I want 20 hours a week,
Kristen (17:07):
Yeah.
Paul (17:08):
or I'm not coming to work with you.
And so you end up kind ofgetting a jaded view of what
support in your business lookslike because you are always kind
of working in half measures.
So it's an interesting twist onthat kind of having that
partnership,
Kristen (17:21):
it is, and it's, I think it's one of the hardest
things in small businessesfiguring out.
When to hire and what level ofconfidence you have, you're
gonna be able to fill thatperson.
And you have to look at yourselfif you're the main salesperson,
and say do I have time to selland grow this?
Because if I don't, I may haveto invest.
But again I think that todaythere's a lot more you can do
(17:43):
with systems and tools wherepreviously we were doing that
with people.
So I do think there's a littlemore opportunity to kind of
extend yourself.
To give a little, to kind oflike de-risk financially that
maybe there, there wasn't a fewyears ago, which I think is
great.
Paul (18:00):
So when you did set out into the content world, what
would you say was the thing thatwas missing the most, you know,
what were you trying to solvethat you didn't see anybody else
solving for?
Kristen (18:10):
Yeah, so I kind, because I sort of backed my way
in.
I was a writer who learned aboutmarketing.
I'm not sure that I knew at thetime.
I just knew that I was servingpeople well, but I.
If I look back on it now, Ithink it is this expert led
content piece.
I don't think it, because itcame naturally to me.
I was like, oh, well if we wannatalk about this from this unique
(18:31):
perspective of the company, ofcourse we need to be.
Dealing with the experts insidethe organization.
That was very second nature tome.
But I didn't realise that wasn'thow it was happening sort of in
the industry.
That how it was happening was alot, much more generic research,
much more kind of keywordfocused, broad topics, things
(18:53):
like that.
Really content had become almostsynonymous with just.
SEO optimized copy that bringspeople to websites.
And it's so much more than that.
So I would say this expert ledcontent piece that really pulls
out and, it, to me it's ashortcut.
It's a shortcut to creatingsomething that's unique for the
organization.
(19:13):
it's super beneficial becausenow what you're doing matches
what you're getting on theoutside.
There's nothing sillier to methan.
Kind of saying we need to makeup what marketing looks like,
but then the whole business isbased on you're gonna go work
with these specific people whohave really strong points of
view and are gonna do things acertain way.
(19:34):
Well, that's what it should looklike on the outside as well, so
that a customer feels reallyconnected through that whole
journey.
And so I find that expert ledcontent, just like very
naturally kind of marries theinternal and the external.
Paul (19:48):
And one of the things that you talk about a lot is the
rewrite loop.
Now I find that concept reallyinteresting because.
The rewrite loop is something Ieven, I get clients come to me
who are also stuck in the sameloop from a video perspective.
So talk me through what the rewhat's the rewrite loop and why
is it what triggers it?
Kristen (20:07):
Yeah, so I think there's a couple things.
One, it is, There can be a needfor perfectionism.
and usually underlying that isfear, right?
Fear of producing something thatdoesn't accurately reflect them
producing something that's notat the caliber of what they
need.
something that is not gonna landlike a thud you know, with a
(20:31):
thud with their audience.
so, I will say there are certaintimes where rewrites are very
necessary and.
And we'll look back and be like,that client was right.
You know, didn't understandsomething and now they've helped
us understand it.
And now we made thoseadjustments and we know them
forever going forward, which iswonderful.
(20:52):
there are also times where Ithink this comes from needing to
know the client and in somecases it can be helpful to
really know yourself as aclient.
Some clients have to put theirfingerprints on everything.
doesn't matter how good it is,it's not about that, it's just
how they are.
And so, I think that's why youhave to make sure, like in my
(21:14):
role, that you're not takingedits and feedback too
personally because some peopleare going to change things.
You're gonna be like, was thatsmall word change really
necessary?
But it helps give them ownershipover this material.
I have a lot of empathy forsomeone who's.
You know, effectivelyoutsourcing their thinking and
saying, this written product hasto reflect me, and it's okay if
(21:35):
they wanna put theirfingerprints on it.
but so in other words, sometimesit's your personality.
Sometimes there's some changesthat need to be justified, and
sometimes it is that fear ofbeing seen and that.
Perfectionism that keeps thingstrapped, right?
Because if nothing's everapproved and it's constantly
being rewritten, then it's neverpublished.
And if it's never published,then nobody ever sees it.
(21:57):
And if nobody ever sees it, thennobody can form an opinion about
it and you are safe.
Paul (22:02):
Yep.
Kristen (22:03):
I think that well there are many operational blockers to
consistent content production.
There are also emotional onesthat we don't always think
about.
Maybe because we're dealingwith, you know, we're dealing
with business and so it'ssupposed to feel like it's all
logical, but that's, we're stillhuman and that's just not how we
always operate.
Paul (22:22):
And I think that's the same on our side of things as
well, right?
I remember when I first startedand I still get it.
I still get it right?
This is why a relationship withclient is so, so important and
an open line to communication isso important and building that
trust.
Early days, you know, when aclient coming to me and going,
oh, that video, the end of thatclip just wasn't right.
(22:43):
And it's kind of cut me off halfsentence and I'll have made an
intentional decision to cut itoff where I did.
And it kind of feel like youalmost take it as a personal
attack but it's, right.
But I did that on purpose.
I think I'm right and there'sthis, and then it's followed by,
oh my God, I'm gonna lose theclient.
They made an edit.
They don't like what I do, or amI gonna lose?
(23:03):
I'm gonna lose them as a client.
I must do this.
Right.
And you kind of, there's allthese voices going on and it's
so hard in the early days ofrunning your own business,
especially in content to kind ofmanage all those voices inside
your own head.
Your board of directors as oneof my client used to call on
your internal board.
Kristen (23:19):
Yeah.
Paul (23:20):
you know, it's fascinating.
So what's.
Your process for building that,that relationship of trust,
because I can imagine with youworking with such an expert
audience, an expert client base,then trust's also extremely
important to them before they'lleven make a move to work with
you.
Right.
Kristen (23:37):
Yeah, for sure.
So there's a few things there.
I think what's interesting is Ithink one of the baseline things
is.
Actually goes back to some of myroots in theatre.
So in theatre, you know, I'vebeen in shows with big Broadway
stars and big Broadway directorsand side by side with them.
(23:59):
That's a whole room full ofpeople who, no matter where they
come from, everybody's there.
There's a very clear, likeshared goal of producing great
work together.
And there's also, just a verylike leveling dynamic.
I think.
You might be totally differentlevels of fame or reputation or
(24:19):
whatever else, but in that roomyou're all in character.
Everybody has a role and youhave to be able to kind of bring
your full self.
you're someone who's in aposition of giving feedback, be
able to freely give feedback.
So, a sense of everybody is kindof peers.
And so I think because of thatbackground, I've always gone
into even, you know, high levelexecutive interviews of major
(24:44):
companies.
And I've felt like there's alevel of peer, I'm an expert at
what I do.
You are an expert at what youdo.
We aren't experts in the samething, but that's why we're here
to work together.
And I think that in and ofitself, rather than feeling
super deferential, can.
Start to build the foundation oftrust.
The next thing really importantis expectation setting.
(25:06):
I'll never forget, I had abusiness coach and she was
really focused on, this is sofunny, like webinars and saying
yourself.
So saying, I'm going to share myscreen now.
I'm going to stop sharing now.
Small things like that, but thenbigger things too, right?
Here's what we're here to do.
Here's the role you're gonnaplay over the course of this
(25:27):
interview.
Here's what's going to happennext.
Here's where you will have achance to provide input, give
approval, leave your feedback,like whatever that their role is
so that they know what toexpect.
And then I think the, there'sprobably two more things.
So I'll try and keep this brief.
Showing a real desire tounderstand.
So asking questions that digdeeper.
(25:47):
Not being afraid to engage indialogue and say, what I'm
hearing is this, it makes methink of that.
Is that a accurate framing forhow I'm thinking about the
world?
So really being willing toengage with them.
And again, I think that goesback to them a peer.
And then the very last thing Iwould say, just in general all
clients, is empathy.
(26:09):
Thinking about, you know, whatdoes their day look like?
And so remembering that whenthey show up on my Zoom screen,
they've carved out time for meamid a jam packed day of
meetings.
They've been thinking about ahundred other things and that
doesn't need mean I need toapologise for being there with
them.
But it means that I need to,again, kind of like reframe,
(26:32):
make sure I'm starting over fromthe beginning, setting those
expectations.
in the way we send emails,trying to make it really clear.
So at a quick scan, becausewe're one of a thousand emails
in their inbox, um, what theyneed to do next, and making
those next steps obvious.
Not putting too much mental loador invisible work on them.
(26:53):
So even down to the way wephrase emails and things like
that, all of it is really about,you know, and if they blow us
off, right?
That totally happens.
And there are some times whereI'll be talking with my team and
there's some frustration andI've had experiences where I've
said, you know, we aren't thetop priority right now.
It doesn't mean they don't careabout it, but we've gotta
understand they have whole livesand whole businesses and we are
(27:16):
doing right to follow up.
But also don't take itpersonally because.
Paul (27:20):
Yeah.
Kristen (27:21):
It's not about us, it's about understanding them.
Paul (27:25):
And I think there's a lot can be said for a, a sales
approach.
Kristen (27:29):
I don't think I
Paul (27:29):
Yeah.
Kristen (27:30):
how much I prioritize that sense of empathy and kind
of understanding who they are.
But that
Paul (27:35):
Yeah.
Kristen (27:36):
all the way to, you know, the audiences the end
audiences that, that ultimatelywe're writing for as well.
Paul (27:42):
Yeah, I think there's a lot people can take away from
that for sales approach as well.
It's, you know, when, you know,there's a lot of bad rapport on
LinkedIn about, you know, PEpeople ghosting me, oh, people
ghost me all the time and ghostthis, that, and the other.
And it's oh, you've gottaremember what's important to you
isn't important to everyoneelse.
Like it's important to you andit should be important to you.
(28:02):
And.
Totally understand why you'restressing about it, but you've
gotta remember that you are oneof 20 emails that they've dealt
with today, 10 meetings thatthey're gonna be part of today.
He's give people a break and let'em come back.
And you know, some people that'sjust need a few hours.
Some people need a few days,some people need a few months.
Right?
But show up in the right way.
(28:23):
I think you're actually right.
You know that empathy and youcan convey that in and this is
why I love words.
I'm absolutely in love withwords.
I'm not a copywriter by anyweird means.
I'm a very big, or I was a verybig reader.
I was prolific reader when I wasyounger.
I don't have the time at themoment, if I'm honest.
I'd love to maybe when I, maybewhen the kids grow a little bit
more and I get a bit more freetime, if that ever happens.
(28:45):
I'm not sure it will.
But words are so important ineverything and, you know, right.
Video is kind of, it's an act.
It's, it's a transfer of energy.
I kind of think of it as like Itransfer my energy through the
camera to other people.
But words are, they're an art.
It's really I, it's just the twogo so hand in hand and, and
(29:07):
support each other.
But even down to the way thatyou write your emails can impact
on someone's day.
So massively.
I'm ADHD, so I'm like, you know,I'm a big fan of why write one
word when a thousand will do.
I kill people with words becauseI want to give all the context.
I wanna explain everything toeveryone all the time so that
you can't possibly misunderstandme.
And all that happens is peopleread the first three sentences
(29:29):
and miss everything else anyway,because I, they get bored and
it's so hard for me to stopPaul, stop train myself to do it
now.
Stop rethink the email.
Do I need to put all this in?
Can it be two emails?
Can I send another email inthree days?
As much as I don't want to kindasend that in three days as a
separate email, so I don't drownthem right now.
Yeah.
Okay.
Let's kind of take a step back.
(29:50):
I guess you deal a lot with asimilar sort of problem in a
slightly different angle.
Like experts get in their ownway when they're trying to write
stuff for themselves, right?
Because they're so knee deep inthe detail of the thing that
they're an expert at.
They struggle to tell the story,right?
And they forget that there is astory even it's.
(30:10):
You know, especially if you talklike engineering or mechanics or
healthcare, it's very much allthe facts and information and
actually nobody really cares ornot many people care about the
facts and information.
They care about the feelings andemotions and the story of how
you got there.
How do you deal with that sortof things?
Kristen (30:26):
Yeah, so I'll probably clarify the question a little
bit because I think that in somecases I've seen this in with
engineers in particular, oftentheir audience is other
engineers and they do care aboutthe facts.
Paul (30:38):
Yeah.
so being
Kristen (30:38):
technically accurate is super important, but I think
what they.
There's two things they don'treally have insight into.
One is their level of expertiserelative to somebody else's and
relative to their audience.
And that is a problem.
We all face the curse ofknowledge, right?
So, I.
It even happens to me.
I'll think oh gosh, like I don'thave anything new to say about
(31:00):
this LinkedIn post, you know,for LinkedIn.
And it turns out I'm like ninesteps ahead of where I ought to
be.
I ought to be explaining the
Paul (31:07):
Yep.
Kristen (31:07):
step one because that is still new and different for
people and interesting andeducational and valuable.
so I think that's a blocker isjust the difficulty in, in
seeing that.
And then.
Two I think that marketing andcommunications, they suffer a
bit from the, everyone's amarketer, You might call it.
(31:29):
And so I think that's partlybecause we all possess the basic
skills, right?
We all can write and some peoplemight be quite good writers.
We all we've been trained to beable to communicate ideas.
But that doesn't mean thatyou're automatically an expert
in how to do that in a waythat's reaching your audience
(31:50):
and all of the thought thatneeds to go into that and how
that should be formatted forwhich particular channel.
That's a whole different area ofexpertise.
So I think those two things canreally hang people up.
And then I do agree on thepersonal.
Front as well, or that morestorytelling front.
Like sometimes people aresurprised that the revealing of
(32:12):
themselves is actually the thingthat can create a connection and
can create an impression.
And somewhere along the way theypicked up the idea that they
need to be super buttoned up andcorporate and separate, separate
themselves from the business.
And.
When they try it, they're oftenpleasantly surprised that some
(32:33):
of those personal stories andthe things that, those are, like
the experiences that shape theperspectives they have, right?
So a story about your past isnot in and of itself, maybe
fresh take on something, but itis the.
The fuel for the fire.
It's the thing that like causedyou to think about the world the
way that you do now, and I thinkpeople really appreciate that.
(32:55):
It's a way to, it's a way toconnect.
Paul (32:57):
I, I absolutely agree.
I absolutely agree.
And i Think too many people arescared of sharing that for
various reasons.
As you've said, kind of whetherit's that worry about the
perception of others, whetherit's the uncomfortable, I don't
want to share information aboutmyself.
I don't want to be vulnerable.
I don't want to give this up.
(33:18):
But yet we're all kind ofknocking on the door going, why
have I not got more sales?
We need, we're emotional ledbeings whether you're a
technical person, whether you'rean expert, whether it doesn't
matter.
At our core, we're allemotionally driven and we need
to connect emotionally withothers in order to like people,
to trust people to see them as acredible experts.
(33:41):
And interesting, an interestingkind of segway that I always
talk about is I was watching aStephen Bartlett's.
Oh.
It was, I was listening to hisbook, Stephen Bartlett's book.
I don't know, I dunno whetheryou guys have much of Stephen
Bartlett over there, but he's,you know, quite, quite a
respected authority here.
And he was talking about the theidea that you can't change
(34:01):
somebody's opinion by forcingthem to change their opinion.
You can't change whether theysee you as an expert by pointing
a gun at them and making them,you know, kind of, you will see
me as an expert.
It's impossible.
Right.
You know.
But, you know, believe in XYbelieve in the Easter Bunny,
right?
Well, I can't'cause I, the factstell me that's not true.
So I, it doesn't matter how muchthe gun's pressed in my head,
(34:23):
I'm still not gonna believe inthat.
But what he posited was, andit's a great example is that it,
I see myself as an expert and Istart to see you as an expert
and we maybe agree on 95% ofthings over a period of time.
That's great.
I start to build trust in you.
But what we can't have in ourinternal monologue is
(34:48):
inconsistencies.
So if you and I disagree onsomething, one of us has to be
wrong.
Now, either I'm wrong or you arewrong, and most people's natural
tendency is to believe that Ican't be wrong.
You have to be wrong.
But there's an interesting thinghappens once you build a certain
amount of trust, people are ableto question their own view.
And think, actually, maybe I'mwrong.
(35:11):
Maybe this person is right andthis thing I've believed all
this time is wrong.
And rather than you putting itonto them and saying, no, you
are wrong, this is the waythings are.
All you are doing is expressingyour own opinion and letting
them decide that they might bewrong enough to invest
themselves into discovering it.
And I think that's a reallypowerful lesson for a lot of
(35:31):
people to learn is.
You know that's the power,that's the real power of trust.
And that could be, you know,something like, you know, you
need my help in order to makeyour business more successful.
No, I don't.
So instead of saying it outloud, we just show them through
content and through words andthrough video and help them
understand that we are anexpert, which eventually builds
(35:53):
that trust so that they reachthat tipping point.
And let's be honest, that's allour clients who are work coming
to us for work.
Are wanting support withthemselves.
So it's, I just find it's areally interesting kind of
circular economy.
It's all in here and it's all inhere.
Kristen (36:07):
Yeah, I love that and I love.
I love what you said about theword discovery too.
So, not all expert led content,what I classify as thought
leadership content technically.
But when we talk about thoughtleadership content, I like to
describe, my favorite way todescribe it is like, it answers
the questions people haven'tthought to ask yet.
(36:28):
And so there is that sense ofdiscovery and something new.
And to your point about likeexpert to expert as well, I
think this kind of goes back tothe thing about empathy, which
what expert led content doestoo, I think is showed deep
respect for the audience, fortheir intelligence, for their
capacity, for what reallymatters to them.
(36:50):
Again, kind of that concept ofempathy and thinking about what
do they really need and.
And treating them likeaccordingly and investing
putting intention and thoughtinto the kind of content that's
created for them accordingly aswell.
I think it's such a sign ofrespect and how the company
maybe feels about its customersbased on what they create for
(37:13):
them.
Paul (37:13):
There's so much we could unpack.
Kristen I, we normally only do30 minute episodes.
We're already at 42 minutes.
And I could honestly I feel likeI see this every week.
I love this podcast.
I love talking to the amazingguests we have on.
'cause almost every episode Icould go on for another two or
three hours and we should grabsome coffee and discuss some of
this stuff offline.
But thank you very much forbeing an amazing guest on the
(37:33):
short today, Kristen.
If people want to reach you,what's the best way for them to
contact you?
Kristen (37:38):
Yeah, so I would check out the website every little
word.co, or find me on LinkedIn.
Paul (37:43):
Awesome, and we'll put those links in the show notes as
well, so if you're watchingalong, they'll be down there
somewhere, have a look through.
We'll we'll make it easy foryou.
Thank you at home for being afaithful watcher of the episode,
whether it's a clip, whetherit's the episode, whether it's
on audio or, thank you very muchfor taking the time to watch
them.
We do this for you.
It's not for me.
I enjoy it, but it's all foryou.
(38:05):
And if you've got any questions,if you want you know, if there's
any particular guests, anythemes you want us to cover,
feel free, reach out over theemail or on direct messages and
I would love it.
I would love, love, love it ifyou were able to give us a
rating on Spotify or Apple tohelp push the numbers up even
further and reach more people.
Thanks for your time, and I willsee you next week on MarketPulse
(38:26):
Pros and Pioneers.
If you've ever second guessed your voice or edited
your message or felt like yourcontent didn't reflect your
expertise, this episode verywell might explain why Kristen
Sweeney is the founder and CEOof every little word, a content
strategy and communicationsagency for expert led businesses
(00:24):
in fields like life sciences.
Higher ed and professionalservices, but long before she
was helping clients shareprecise messaging and find their
voice.
Kristen was on stage quiteliterally pursuing a master's in
musical theatre.
Her love of language andstructure and rhythm never left,
and it simply evolved intohelping complex thinkers make
(00:46):
meaning of their ideas with abackground span in editorial
work ops, leadership, contentmarketing, and internal
communications.
Kristen has spent the last 15 ormore years quietly powering the
message behind big ideas andbreaking the perfectionism that
keeps so many expert led brandsfrom seeing what really needs to
(01:08):
be said.
I love that bio, your, Kristen.
I love it.
I love what you are about and Ican't wait to dig into some more
of that.
Welcome to the show.
Thank you for being a guest.
Kristen (01:17):
you so much.
I'm happy to be here.
Paul (01:20):
Genuinely, it's my pleasure.
I mean, I, we were just kind ofseeing off air before, before we
kicked the episode off, andbefore I dive into a little bit
of your background and storythat I'm a big believer,
although I'm video first and Ialways talk about video being at
the top of the content pyramid.
Video very rarely means anythingwithout good thought provoking
(01:40):
copy That gives it context.
Especially when you're talkingabout short form video, long
form video doesn't get watchedas much.
Short form video is where we'reall at these days, but yet even
that means nothing without theright message, the right tone,
the right voice, and the rightcontext to challenge our
thoughts and thinking and pushesonto the next idea.
(02:03):
So I can't wait to dig furtherinto every little word and your
background.
I think it's gonna be aphenomenal episode.
Kristen (02:09):
Oh, wonderful.
Yes, and it's interesting whatyou were saying, Paul, because I
think that, you know, one of thebenefits of something like
video, we'll just kind of jumpright in here, is.
Is, it does have the opportunityfor some of that like
personality and charisma andsome of the things that can't
necessarily be conveyed inwriting.
Where writing has the advantage,I think is demands a level of
(02:33):
precision.
So I can speak to you and wavemy arms around and make half
sentences and you get the gistof what I'm trying to say.
And that can work in a virtual,like when you can see me.
But when.
Kind of the best of both worlds,I think, is when you combine
something that's really precise,really well thought out, super
intentional and then maybe youdo add in certain contexts like
(02:57):
extra element.
There's a really nice, I think,opportunity for kind of blending
both.
Paul (03:02):
Absolutely is.
I think they coexist togetherin, in absolute harmony.
let's rewind though.
A Masters in musical theatre.
Explain that path to that point,if you would Like.
What did Kristen at school do?
Why?
Why?
What triggered your interest inmusic?
I.
Kristen (03:19):
So it was interesting.
I had a very varied backgroundgrowing up as a kid.
I was super academic, very highachiever performer there, one of
the valedictorians of my class.
And I also had always had aninterest in the arts.
And so when it came time tochoose my path for undergrad, I,
I kind of thought, if.
(03:40):
If performing is something thatI want to do for my life or for
part of my life, like now is thetime to kind of commit to it.
So I studied musical theatre inmy undergrad.
I got a second degree in.
Medieval studies'cause that's agreat backup for performance
degree.
And when I was, when all wassaid and done, I felt like I
(04:00):
needed a little bit moretraining.
And so I went on to pursue amaster's at the Boston
Conservatory, which is now partof Berkeley in musical theatre.
for me, I mean, I.
It's funny because the work I donow is so behind the scenes in
many ways, but I have alwaysloved being on stage,
performing, singing, dancing,acting, putting myself in
someone's story and helping be apart of interpreting that story
(04:25):
sharing it more broadly.
And in that way, I think there'sstill some parallels to what I
do today.
Paul (04:29):
I absolutely think there is.
I can see it exactly.
I think it's a beautifuljourney.
What triggered you to pivot awayfrom musical theatre then?
Because surely that's a calling.
It's something everybody lovesto do.
What made you think there wassomething more out in the world
for you to achieve thancontinuing on in musical
theatre?
Kristen (04:45):
Yeah.
So to be really honest I thinkit was.
Partly kind of growing up andsome other things I wanted in my
life and partly the path that Ihad there.
So, I lived in New York,performed regionally for close
to 10 years, and the end of that10 years, my life looked a bit
different.
Had burned out a little bit onthe audition lifestyle.
(05:06):
I had not made it to Broadway,although I had performed at
theatres around the country.
and I was.
In a serious relationship withsomeone wanted to start a
family.
And I really found myselfthinking like the, about what
the kind of, for maybe one ofthe first times, like what is
the ultimate goal here?
And if you are a theatreperformer, the ultimate goal is
(05:28):
eight shows a week, six nights,six nights a week, pretty
Paul (05:32):
yeah.
Kristen (05:32):
are waiting to go to work every day.
there's a lot to love aboutthat, but it's also hard and.
At that point in time, I wasready to kind of explore what
else might be out there becauseit didn't.
for for my whole life, it didn'thave the same kind of appeal
that it once had with the otherthings I wanted.
(05:54):
And I ended up moving to Boston.
I got married now I live inFlorida.
I have two kids.
So, you know, life took adifferent, and, you know,
honestly a little bit moreconventional path, but I
certainly took the long wayaround to getting there, which
I'm happy about.
Paul (06:07):
I always find this interesting, right?
When I talk to American guestsand when I'm doing a networking
with Americans, I always find itfascinating'cause you guys have
such a vast country and allthese states that make up the
country.
And England would probably fitin most of the states in
America, four or five, if notmore times over.
And we think like in England,like very rarely move too far
(06:28):
away from where you grew up,right?
Most people grew up live, workand die in the same sort of
geographical area where you grewup.
Some people might move from thenorth of the country to the
south of the country.
That's about as far as it gets,or south to the north if they
retiring.
And yet I speak to lords ofAmericans who.
Like yourself, like exactly thatsort of journey.
(06:49):
Oh, I grew up in New York, thenwe moved to California and now
we live in Kentucky.
And it's that's thousands andthousands of miles.
It blows my mind as to, youknow, I think it's amazing that
you've got that flexibility tomove within the country and
you've got so many differentclimates and opportunities and
rural areas, suburbanmetropolitans.
(07:09):
I just think it's a fascinatingjourney that.
As a country, you guys can havethat variety within your lives
and actively seek it out.
What's been the best part ofmoving around the country that,
like what, you know, what haveyou enjoyed about the different
areas?
Kristen (07:22):
For me, I think
Paul (07:25):
I.
Kristen (07:25):
I really relish new experiences, so that kind of
carries over to the work I dotoday.
What, every time we work with anew client or we're, you know,
learning about their business orlearning a new industry, so I
would say yeah, just kind ofadapting to that environment and
seeing what lessons thisparticular experience has to
teach me.
Paul (07:45):
Complete curve ball, but what's your favorite place to be
in New York?
Kristen (07:49):
Oh my gosh.
I have some just such wonderfulmemories.
Sheep's Meadow in Central Park,picnicking with friends.
Paul (07:57):
Amazing.
I love it.
I ask because I'm yet to visitAmerica.
Like it just hasn't, theopportunity hasn't arrived for
me.
Like I was working a lot ofhours when I was younger.
I've got a family now, youngfamily now, and it's kind of,
it's on the bucket list.
Like I definitely will come toAmerica at some point, but it
just kind of never reallyhappened yet.
So I'm always curious to know,you know, as a British person,
we see a lot of movies andtheatre, like theatre in it.
(08:20):
A lot of America I find is, Ithink from speaking to people,
it's quite dramatised Comparedto what's actually important
when you get to America.
So it's always interesting tohear what people who've lived in
different areas, like what yourthoughts are on what's important
in different you know, for anEnglish person thinking, oh, I
wanna go to you know, MadisonSquare Gardens, or, you know,
these sorts of places.
And quite often the answer froman American is something
(08:42):
radically different.
I love it.
Kristen (08:44):
Yeah.
Paul (08:44):
so.
Kristen (08:45):
I could see that.
Paul (08:46):
So So choosing, I guess we talk about your work with today.
You choose to work with somevery specific client types.
What led you on that path towork with, you know, higher ed
professional services doctors.
Why that?
'cause that's gonna be thehardest route you can go to
(09:07):
doing what you're doing, right?
That's the hardest ask.
Kristen (09:10):
It's interesting.
I would say the choice kind ofcame from looking at what we
were doing and where we felt wereally excelled with our
skillset as a team, with my kindof personal interests.
And it turned out that there'sthis fun and interesting
intersection between people whoare real experts have a lot of
expertise, and that expertisekind of tends to power their
(09:31):
organization in some way.
Those people also often whatthey're doing could be quite
technical.
It could be quite complex, andthere's usually some kind of
tension or struggle to sort ofunlock the knowledge that they
have and actually share it in away that then makes sense for
achieving marketing andcommunication objectives.
(09:51):
And what we found is that wereally excel when we can be that
intermediary that collaborateswith those experts.
Then kind of reframes and canhelp create the content and the
campaigns that are achievingreally specific goals for the
organization.
Paul (10:12):
So what,
Kristen (10:12):
I would say that's the thing they all kind of have in
common in a lot of cases.
Paul (10:52):
what was the point when you decided that was what you
were gonna specialise in as abusiness?
Did it start out that way?
Did you always intend that to beyour client base?
Kristen (11:01):
So, not specifically in terms of industry, but I would
say it started out that waybecause my first few clients
were doctors.
I was writing, I was on my ownghost writing for them.
And then we had a long stintwhere we had a.
A close partnership and we werebasically working with probably
50 small manufacturers precisionmachine shops.
(11:22):
And if you don't think that iscomplicated, try talking to an
engineer in that space orsomeone who was estimating a
project.
so I would say that it was acombination of.
personal interest and I'm supercurious.
One of our company's core valuesis hungry to learn.
And so this idea of just likealways wanting to know more lent
itself really well, it felt alittle wasted on that curiosity
(11:46):
felt wasted on something that'stoo straightforward, if that
makes sense.
it's like you don't really needwhat I can do really well.
And then kind of built the teamlooking for people like me who
are really wanted to take thatcuriosity.
I.
From the perspective of actuallydoing the writing and getting
really curious about how thoseideas worked and what is the
best way to put these wordstogether, that's gonna convey
(12:10):
the message we wanna get across.
Paul (12:12):
And so what was the.
Pivot point for you where, Imean, so one moment you're
working in musical theatre,that's your life.
You've realised that somethingneeds to change.
What was the point where youstepped away from that to go and
work and get into marketing andexplore that?
Kristen (12:30):
Yeah, so.
I would say there is a pivotpoint and also it happened
gradually.
So for many years I.
My, my, the technical name of mybusiness, and I think you'll
appreciate this, is called thisRenaissance Woman because it was
this giant umbrella for all thedifferent stuff that I did and
that was acting.
There's also a whole multi-yearcareer as a yoga teacher in
(12:54):
there as well.
All the different side gigs thatI was working, you know, I've
been a restaurant host, I'vebeen a personal assistant.
I've been, you know, areceptionist.
I've been sorts of other roles.
but freelance writing frompretty early on was always a
part of that.
And basically what happened is Iwas living in Boston and in 2019
(13:16):
I had my oldest daughter, and Icame back from my maternity
leave and I around at what I wasdoing and, you know.
you have kids, they can, theychange everything, right?
So, it was an interesting timefor me to step back and say what
do I want things to look likenow that there's this third
person in the mix?
what I realised was basicallytwo things.
(13:37):
One was that I.
I didn't really wanna keeprunning all over the greater
Boston area teaching one-offyoga classes that, schedule
wasn't gonna work for me.
And two was I took a lookfinancially and my economic
engine for the last severalyears had been my freelance
writing, which I was basicallypaying zero attention to.
(13:58):
So I was doing great work for myclients, but not trying to grow
the business.
And so that was really themoment where I was like, you
know, this seems like it canoffer me.
the flexibility I'm looking forbetter financially.
I love the work and so whatwould happen if I started to
actually put my attention ontoit?
What would come out of giving itsome focus and actively trying
(14:21):
to help it grow?
So that was really, I would saythe pivot for me, it was kind of
like a slow burn and then adecision all at once.
Paul (14:27):
What made you decide to grow beyond just a one person
team?
Because I know for me, like.
We're a husband and wife team,like my wife does a few hours a
week, which she helps withchildcare.
I do pretty much full timeduring the weekend.
And do you know what I'm notready to move beyond that and
I've done leadership for 15years, right?
Like I'm jaded with leadershipsomewhat.
I don't have any interest inmanaging people directly or
(14:50):
leading people for some time.
And it might change in thefuture, but I'm really not there
yet.
What?
Kind of encouraged you to decidethat you needed to build a team
around what you were doing.
'cause that's very brave, Ithink.
Kristen (15:02):
Oh, thank you.
Well, I would say two things.
I think that the landscape, evenwhen I did that five, six years
ago, was really different.
And I think that honestly withAI and automation and different
kinds of systems, I probablycould have extended myself
longer today than I would havebeen able to do back then.
(15:23):
that being said.
When I was a one person show,there were a lot of things that
I could recognise weren't thehighest value use of my time.
And so the first thing I did isI got a va, right?
And that's like super commonhire.
And really the tipping pointfor, oh, we're a company now,
was this partnership we hadwhere basically they provided us
(15:46):
with a big sales pipeline.
So the manufacturing clients Italked about, they sold a lot
faster than I did.
And so all of a sudden you know,I think it was also during
COVID.
So basically my husband and Iwere working from like 5:00 AM
till 11:00 PM in shifts.
And I was just slammed withwork.
So that's when I made my firstcouple of hires.
(16:06):
And that.
It kind of happened to me in away.
I'm really glad for it.
We've been bigger at points thanwe are today.
We're like a tight, small teamtoday, and I think I've
definitely settled into myselfmore as a leader.
But really the impetus was likedemand that I could not keep up
with.
Paul (16:24):
I I just think that's, so essentially what we're seeing is
that trigger of having thatreally reliable partner.
It give you the courage to, tokind of financially just splash
out because you knew thatrevenue could come in as long as
you could deliver on it in aconsistent way.
I like that.
It's an interesting lesson forpeople who are out there that
are kind of considering whethernow's the right time to take the
(16:44):
Because For a lot of people,they don't have that pipeline
and they're almost kind of, do Ijust carry on, burning myself
out a bit longer or do I takethe leap now?
And I think the danger is a lotof the time we take someone on
for a few hours per week.
But because you're taking themon for a few hours per week, you
are not getting the highestquality candidate because the
highest quality candidates willsay, no, I want 20 hours a week,
Kristen (17:07):
Yeah.
Paul (17:08):
or I'm not coming to work with you.
And so you end up kind ofgetting a jaded view of what
support in your business lookslike because you are always kind
of working in half measures.
So it's an interesting twist onthat kind of having that
partnership,
Kristen (17:21):
it is, and it's, I think it's one of the hardest
things in small businessesfiguring out.
When to hire and what level ofconfidence you have, you're
gonna be able to fill thatperson.
And you have to look at yourselfif you're the main salesperson,
and say do I have time to selland grow this?
Because if I don't, I may haveto invest.
But again I think that todaythere's a lot more you can do
(17:43):
with systems and tools wherepreviously we were doing that
with people.
So I do think there's a littlemore opportunity to kind of
extend yourself.
To give a little, to kind oflike de-risk financially that
maybe there, there wasn't a fewyears ago, which I think is
great.
Paul (18:00):
So when you did set out into the content world, what
would you say was the thing thatwas missing the most, you know,
what were you trying to solvethat you didn't see anybody else
solving for?
Kristen (18:10):
Yeah, so I kind, because I sort of backed my way
in.
I was a writer who learned aboutmarketing.
I'm not sure that I knew at thetime.
I just knew that I was servingpeople well, but I.
If I look back on it now, Ithink it is this expert led
content piece.
I don't think it, because itcame naturally to me.
I was like, oh, well if we wannatalk about this from this unique
(18:31):
perspective of the company, ofcourse we need to be.
Dealing with the experts insidethe organization.
That was very second nature tome.
But I didn't realise that wasn'thow it was happening sort of in
the industry.
That how it was happening was alot, much more generic research,
much more kind of keywordfocused, broad topics, things
(18:53):
like that.
Really content had become almostsynonymous with just.
SEO optimized copy that bringspeople to websites.
And it's so much more than that.
So I would say this expert ledcontent piece that really pulls
out and, it, to me it's ashortcut.
It's a shortcut to creatingsomething that's unique for the
organization.
(19:13):
it's super beneficial becausenow what you're doing matches
what you're getting on theoutside.
There's nothing sillier to methan.
Kind of saying we need to makeup what marketing looks like,
but then the whole business isbased on you're gonna go work
with these specific people whohave really strong points of
view and are gonna do things acertain way.
(19:34):
Well, that's what it should looklike on the outside as well, so
that a customer feels reallyconnected through that whole
journey.
And so I find that expert ledcontent, just like very
naturally kind of marries theinternal and the external.
Paul (19:48):
And one of the things that you talk about a lot is the
rewrite loop.
Now I find that concept reallyinteresting because.
The rewrite loop is something Ieven, I get clients come to me
who are also stuck in the sameloop from a video perspective.
So talk me through what the rewhat's the rewrite loop and why
is it what triggers it?
Kristen (20:07):
Yeah, so I think there's a couple things.
One, it is, There can be a needfor perfectionism.
and usually underlying that isfear, right?
Fear of producing something thatdoesn't accurately reflect them
producing something that's notat the caliber of what they
need.
something that is not gonna landlike a thud you know, with a
(20:31):
thud with their audience.
so, I will say there are certaintimes where rewrites are very
necessary and.
And we'll look back and be like,that client was right.
You know, didn't understandsomething and now they've helped
us understand it.
And now we made thoseadjustments and we know them
forever going forward, which iswonderful.
(20:52):
there are also times where Ithink this comes from needing to
know the client and in somecases it can be helpful to
really know yourself as aclient.
Some clients have to put theirfingerprints on everything.
doesn't matter how good it is,it's not about that, it's just
how they are.
And so, I think that's why youhave to make sure, like in my
(21:14):
role, that you're not takingedits and feedback too
personally because some peopleare going to change things.
You're gonna be like, was thatsmall word change really
necessary?
But it helps give them ownershipover this material.
I have a lot of empathy forsomeone who's.
You know, effectivelyoutsourcing their thinking and
saying, this written product hasto reflect me, and it's okay if
(21:35):
they wanna put theirfingerprints on it.
but so in other words, sometimesit's your personality.
Sometimes there's some changesthat need to be justified, and
sometimes it is that fear ofbeing seen and that.
Perfectionism that keeps thingstrapped, right?
Because if nothing's everapproved and it's constantly
being rewritten, then it's neverpublished.
And if it's never published,then nobody ever sees it.
(21:57):
And if nobody ever sees it, thennobody can form an opinion about
it and you are safe.
Paul (22:02):
Yep.
Kristen (22:03):
I think that well there are many operational blockers to
consistent content production.
There are also emotional onesthat we don't always think
about.
Maybe because we're dealingwith, you know, we're dealing
with business and so it'ssupposed to feel like it's all
logical, but that's, we're stillhuman and that's just not how we
always operate.
Paul (22:22):
And I think that's the same on our side of things as
well, right?
I remember when I first startedand I still get it.
I still get it right?
This is why a relationship withclient is so, so important and
an open line to communication isso important and building that
trust.
Early days, you know, when aclient coming to me and going,
oh, that video, the end of thatclip just wasn't right.
(22:43):
And it's kind of cut me off halfsentence and I'll have made an
intentional decision to cut itoff where I did.
And it kind of feel like youalmost take it as a personal
attack but it's, right.
But I did that on purpose.
I think I'm right and there'sthis, and then it's followed by,
oh my God, I'm gonna lose theclient.
They made an edit.
They don't like what I do, or amI gonna lose?
(23:03):
I'm gonna lose them as a client.
I must do this.
Right.
And you kind of, there's allthese voices going on and it's
so hard in the early days ofrunning your own business,
especially in content to kind ofmanage all those voices inside
your own head.
Your board of directors as oneof my client used to call on
your internal board.
Kristen (23:19):
Yeah.
Paul (23:20):
you know, it's fascinating.
So what's.
Your process for building that,that relationship of trust,
because I can imagine with youworking with such an expert
audience, an expert client base,then trust's also extremely
important to them before they'lleven make a move to work with
you.
Right.
Kristen (23:37):
Yeah, for sure.
So there's a few things there.
I think what's interesting is Ithink one of the baseline things
is.
Actually goes back to some of myroots in theatre.
So in theatre, you know, I'vebeen in shows with big Broadway
stars and big Broadway directorsand side by side with them.
(23:59):
That's a whole room full ofpeople who, no matter where they
come from, everybody's there.
There's a very clear, likeshared goal of producing great
work together.
And there's also, just a verylike leveling dynamic.
I think.
You might be totally differentlevels of fame or reputation or
(24:19):
whatever else, but in that roomyou're all in character.
Everybody has a role and youhave to be able to kind of bring
your full self.
you're someone who's in aposition of giving feedback, be
able to freely give feedback.
So, a sense of everybody is kindof peers.
And so I think because of thatbackground, I've always gone
into even, you know, high levelexecutive interviews of major
(24:44):
companies.
And I've felt like there's alevel of peer, I'm an expert at
what I do.
You are an expert at what youdo.
We aren't experts in the samething, but that's why we're here
to work together.
And I think that in and ofitself, rather than feeling
super deferential, can.
Start to build the foundation oftrust.
The next thing really importantis expectation setting.
(25:06):
I'll never forget, I had abusiness coach and she was
really focused on, this is sofunny, like webinars and saying
yourself.
So saying, I'm going to share myscreen now.
I'm going to stop sharing now.
Small things like that, but thenbigger things too, right?
Here's what we're here to do.
Here's the role you're gonnaplay over the course of this
(25:27):
interview.
Here's what's going to happennext.
Here's where you will have achance to provide input, give
approval, leave your feedback,like whatever that their role is
so that they know what toexpect.
And then I think the, there'sprobably two more things.
So I'll try and keep this brief.
Showing a real desire tounderstand.
So asking questions that digdeeper.
(25:47):
Not being afraid to engage indialogue and say, what I'm
hearing is this, it makes methink of that.
Is that a accurate framing forhow I'm thinking about the
world?
So really being willing toengage with them.
And again, I think that goesback to them a peer.
And then the very last thing Iwould say, just in general all
clients, is empathy.
(26:09):
Thinking about, you know, whatdoes their day look like?
And so remembering that whenthey show up on my Zoom screen,
they've carved out time for meamid a jam packed day of
meetings.
They've been thinking about ahundred other things and that
doesn't need mean I need toapologise for being there with
them.
But it means that I need to,again, kind of like reframe,
(26:32):
make sure I'm starting over fromthe beginning, setting those
expectations.
in the way we send emails,trying to make it really clear.
So at a quick scan, becausewe're one of a thousand emails
in their inbox, um, what theyneed to do next, and making
those next steps obvious.
Not putting too much mental loador invisible work on them.
(26:53):
So even down to the way wephrase emails and things like
that, all of it is really about,you know, and if they blow us
off, right?
That totally happens.
And there are some times whereI'll be talking with my team and
there's some frustration andI've had experiences where I've
said, you know, we aren't thetop priority right now.
It doesn't mean they don't careabout it, but we've gotta
understand they have whole livesand whole businesses and we are
(27:16):
doing right to follow up.
But also don't take itpersonally because.
Paul (27:20):
Yeah.
Kristen (27:21):
It's not about us, it's about understanding them.
Paul (27:25):
And I think there's a lot can be said for a, a sales
approach.
Kristen (27:29):
I don't think I
Paul (27:29):
Yeah.
Kristen (27:30):
how much I prioritize that sense of empathy and kind
of understanding who they are.
But that
Paul (27:35):
Yeah.
Kristen (27:36):
all the way to, you know, the audiences the end
audiences that, that ultimatelywe're writing for as well.
Paul (27:42):
Yeah, I think there's a lot people can take away from
that for sales approach as well.
It's, you know, when, you know,there's a lot of bad rapport on
LinkedIn about, you know, PEpeople ghosting me, oh, people
ghost me all the time and ghostthis, that, and the other.
And it's oh, you've gottaremember what's important to you
isn't important to everyoneelse.
Like it's important to you andit should be important to you.
(28:02):
And.
Totally understand why you'restressing about it, but you've
gotta remember that you are oneof 20 emails that they've dealt
with today, 10 meetings thatthey're gonna be part of today.
He's give people a break and let'em come back.
And you know, some people that'sjust need a few hours.
Some people need a few days,some people need a few months.
Right?
But show up in the right way.
(28:23):
I think you're actually right.
You know that empathy and youcan convey that in and this is
why I love words.
I'm absolutely in love withwords.
I'm not a copywriter by anyweird means.
I'm a very big, or I was a verybig reader.
I was prolific reader when I wasyounger.
I don't have the time at themoment, if I'm honest.
I'd love to maybe when I, maybewhen the kids grow a little bit
more and I get a bit more freetime, if that ever happens.
(28:45):
I'm not sure it will.
But words are so important ineverything and, you know, right.
Video is kind of, it's an act.
It's, it's a transfer of energy.
I kind of think of it as like Itransfer my energy through the
camera to other people.
But words are, they're an art.
It's really I, it's just the twogo so hand in hand and, and
(29:07):
support each other.
But even down to the way thatyou write your emails can impact
on someone's day.
So massively.
I'm ADHD, so I'm like, you know,I'm a big fan of why write one
word when a thousand will do.
I kill people with words becauseI want to give all the context.
I wanna explain everything toeveryone all the time so that
you can't possibly misunderstandme.
And all that happens is peopleread the first three sentences
(29:29):
and miss everything else anyway,because I, they get bored and
it's so hard for me to stopPaul, stop train myself to do it
now.
Stop rethink the email.
Do I need to put all this in?
Can it be two emails?
Can I send another email inthree days?
As much as I don't want to kindasend that in three days as a
separate email, so I don't drownthem right now.
Yeah.
Okay.
Let's kind of take a step back.
(29:50):
I guess you deal a lot with asimilar sort of problem in a
slightly different angle.
Like experts get in their ownway when they're trying to write
stuff for themselves, right?
Because they're so knee deep inthe detail of the thing that
they're an expert at.
They struggle to tell the story,right?
And they forget that there is astory even it's.
(30:10):
You know, especially if you talklike engineering or mechanics or
healthcare, it's very much allthe facts and information and
actually nobody really cares ornot many people care about the
facts and information.
They care about the feelings andemotions and the story of how
you got there.
How do you deal with that sortof things?
Kristen (30:26):
Yeah, so I'll probably clarify the question a little
bit because I think that in somecases I've seen this in with
engineers in particular, oftentheir audience is other
engineers and they do care aboutthe facts.
Paul (30:38):
Yeah.
so being
Kristen (30:38):
technically accurate is super important, but I think
what they.
There's two things they don'treally have insight into.
One is their level of expertiserelative to somebody else's and
relative to their audience.
And that is a problem.
We all face the curse ofknowledge, right?
So, I.
It even happens to me.
I'll think oh gosh, like I don'thave anything new to say about
(31:00):
this LinkedIn post, you know,for LinkedIn.
And it turns out I'm like ninesteps ahead of where I ought to
be.
I ought to be explaining the
Paul (31:07):
Yep.
Kristen (31:07):
step one because that is still new and different for
people and interesting andeducational and valuable.
so I think that's a blocker isjust the difficulty in, in
seeing that.
And then.
Two I think that marketing andcommunications, they suffer a
bit from the, everyone's amarketer, You might call it.
(31:29):
And so I think that's partlybecause we all possess the basic
skills, right?
We all can write and some peoplemight be quite good writers.
We all we've been trained to beable to communicate ideas.
But that doesn't mean thatyou're automatically an expert
in how to do that in a waythat's reaching your audience
(31:50):
and all of the thought thatneeds to go into that and how
that should be formatted forwhich particular channel.
That's a whole different area ofexpertise.
So I think those two things canreally hang people up.
And then I do agree on thepersonal.
Front as well, or that morestorytelling front.
Like sometimes people aresurprised that the revealing of
(32:12):
themselves is actually the thingthat can create a connection and
can create an impression.
And somewhere along the way theypicked up the idea that they
need to be super buttoned up andcorporate and separate, separate
themselves from the business.
And.
When they try it, they're oftenpleasantly surprised that some
(32:33):
of those personal stories andthe things that, those are, like
the experiences that shape theperspectives they have, right?
So a story about your past isnot in and of itself, maybe
fresh take on something, but itis the.
The fuel for the fire.
It's the thing that like causedyou to think about the world the
way that you do now, and I thinkpeople really appreciate that.
(32:55):
It's a way to, it's a way toconnect.
Paul (32:57):
I, I absolutely agree.
I absolutely agree.
And i Think too many people arescared of sharing that for
various reasons.
As you've said, kind of whetherit's that worry about the
perception of others, whetherit's the uncomfortable, I don't
want to share information aboutmyself.
I don't want to be vulnerable.
I don't want to give this up.
(33:18):
But yet we're all kind ofknocking on the door going, why
have I not got more sales?
We need, we're emotional ledbeings whether you're a
technical person, whether you'rean expert, whether it doesn't
matter.
At our core, we're allemotionally driven and we need
to connect emotionally withothers in order to like people,
to trust people to see them as acredible experts.
(33:41):
And interesting, an interestingkind of segway that I always
talk about is I was watching aStephen Bartlett's.
Oh.
It was, I was listening to hisbook, Stephen Bartlett's book.
I don't know, I dunno whetheryou guys have much of Stephen
Bartlett over there, but he's,you know, quite, quite a
respected authority here.
And he was talking about the theidea that you can't change
(34:01):
somebody's opinion by forcingthem to change their opinion.
You can't change whether theysee you as an expert by pointing
a gun at them and making them,you know, kind of, you will see
me as an expert.
It's impossible.
Right.
You know.
But, you know, believe in XYbelieve in the Easter Bunny,
right?
Well, I can't'cause I, the factstell me that's not true.
So I, it doesn't matter how muchthe gun's pressed in my head,
(34:23):
I'm still not gonna believe inthat.
But what he posited was, andit's a great example is that it,
I see myself as an expert and Istart to see you as an expert
and we maybe agree on 95% ofthings over a period of time.
That's great.
I start to build trust in you.
But what we can't have in ourinternal monologue is
(34:48):
inconsistencies.
So if you and I disagree onsomething, one of us has to be
wrong.
Now, either I'm wrong or you arewrong, and most people's natural
tendency is to believe that Ican't be wrong.
You have to be wrong.
But there's an interesting thinghappens once you build a certain
amount of trust, people are ableto question their own view.
And think, actually, maybe I'mwrong.
(35:11):
Maybe this person is right andthis thing I've believed all
this time is wrong.
And rather than you putting itonto them and saying, no, you
are wrong, this is the waythings are.
All you are doing is expressingyour own opinion and letting
them decide that they might bewrong enough to invest
themselves into discovering it.
And I think that's a reallypowerful lesson for a lot of
(35:31):
people to learn is.
You know that's the power,that's the real power of trust.
And that could be, you know,something like, you know, you
need my help in order to makeyour business more successful.
No, I don't.
So instead of saying it outloud, we just show them through
content and through words andthrough video and help them
understand that we are anexpert, which eventually builds
(35:53):
that trust so that they reachthat tipping point.
And let's be honest, that's allour clients who are work coming
to us for work.
Are wanting support withthemselves.
So it's, I just find it's areally interesting kind of
circular economy.
It's all in here and it's all inhere.
Kristen (36:07):
Yeah, I love that and I love.
I love what you said about theword discovery too.
So, not all expert led content,what I classify as thought
leadership content technically.
But when we talk about thoughtleadership content, I like to
describe, my favorite way todescribe it is like, it answers
the questions people haven'tthought to ask yet.
(36:28):
And so there is that sense ofdiscovery and something new.
And to your point about likeexpert to expert as well, I
think this kind of goes back tothe thing about empathy, which
what expert led content doestoo, I think is showed deep
respect for the audience, fortheir intelligence, for their
capacity, for what reallymatters to them.
(36:50):
Again, kind of that concept ofempathy and thinking about what
do they really need and.
And treating them likeaccordingly and investing
putting intention and thoughtinto the kind of content that's
created for them accordingly aswell.
I think it's such a sign ofrespect and how the company
maybe feels about its customersbased on what they create for
(37:13):
them.
Paul (37:13):
There's so much we could unpack.
Kristen I, we normally only do30 minute episodes.
We're already at 42 minutes.
And I could honestly I feel likeI see this every week.
I love this podcast.
I love talking to the amazingguests we have on.
'cause almost every episode Icould go on for another two or
three hours and we should grabsome coffee and discuss some of
this stuff offline.
But thank you very much forbeing an amazing guest on the
(37:33):
short today, Kristen.
If people want to reach you,what's the best way for them to
contact you?
Kristen (37:38):
Yeah, so I would check out the website every little
word.co, or find me on LinkedIn.
Paul (37:43):
Awesome, and we'll put those links in the show notes as
well, so if you're watchingalong, they'll be down there
somewhere, have a look through.
We'll we'll make it easy foryou.
Thank you at home for being afaithful watcher of the episode,
whether it's a clip, whetherit's the episode, whether it's
on audio or, thank you very muchfor taking the time to watch
them.
We do this for you.
It's not for me.
I enjoy it, but it's all foryou.
(38:05):
And if you've got any questions,if you want you know, if there's
any particular guests, anythemes you want us to cover,
feel free, reach out over theemail or on direct messages and
I would love it.
I would love, love, love it ifyou were able to give us a
rating on Spotify or Apple tohelp push the numbers up even
further and reach more people.
Thanks for your time, and I willsee you next week on MarketPulse
(38:26):
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Ding dong! Join your culture consultants, Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang, on an unforgettable journey into the beating heart of CULTURE. Alongside sizzling special guests, they GET INTO the hottest pop-culture moments of the day and the formative cultural experiences that turned them into Culturistas. Produced by the Big Money Players Network and iHeartRadio.
The Joe Rogan Experience
The official podcast of comedian Joe Rogan.
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.