July 23, 2025 • 28 mins
Enjoying the Show? Share Your Experience!
What if chasing happiness is the very thing making you miserable?
We’ve been sold the idea that happiness comes from achievements, success, and checking all the right boxes. But what if we’ve got it backwards?
Dr Erin Burgoon, author of Joy-Full AF: The Essential Business Strategy We’re Afraid to Put First, has spent years researching what truly leads to fulfilment—and it’s NOT what you think.
In this episode, we discuss:
🔥 The difference between happiness and joy (and why it matters)
🔥 Why chasing happiness leads to burnout
🔥 The "Joy Audit" that reveals what's draining your energy
🔥 How finding joy in work transforms success
If you feel stuck, exhausted, or like you’re constantly chasing something you never quite reach, this conversation will change the way you think about fulfilment and business.
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- Website: https://www.drerinb.com
- LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/drerinb
- Book – Joy-Full AF: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0BXR4T8V9
- Substack Newsletter – Hey, Where’s the Joy?: https://drerinb.substack.com
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
PAul (00:00):
Hello and good afternoon ladies and gentlemen in the
(00:03):
audience.
you roll your eyes when somebodymentions joy?
It feels like a really fluffyconcept for many, and I'm not
gonna lie, I felt exactly thesame until I was fortunate
enough to be gifted with thetitle of our guest today's book,
is Joyful as.
(00:24):
f*ck or"how to be"! today issomebody who I've wanted to meet
for the longest time because oneof my clients worked with them
on their own coaching businessand actually featured in our
guest's book.
And that gave me reason to readthe book even though I thought
the ideal behind it might be abit cringe, might be a bit, not
(00:47):
me,'cause I'm quite a direct.
Earth person.
I've come from a background ofretail and yet I was blown away
by the book, blown away by theconcepts and how the concept of
joy could be something otherthan what I pictured it to be.
And being joyful is verydifferent to being joyful, which
(01:07):
is an important differentiationto make.
Today's guest is no than Dr.
Erin Burgoon.
lovely to have you on the show.
Erin (01:14):
It is so good to be here.
PAul (01:16):
Dr.
Erin is a social psychologist,an executive coach, and a
bestselling author on a missionto help business leaders and
entrepreneurs build prosperous,purpose-driven businesses with a
PhD in psychology and leadershiproles at Facebook and Microsoft
are in combined science-backedstrategies with human-centered
coaching to help organizationscultivate joy as a business
(01:39):
advantage.
Their book, joyful As f*ck.
Can I dunno if I can say that onLinkedIn?!! AF! The essential
business strategy we're afraidto put first" Challenges the
notion that success and joy area separate for a new way to lead
market and grow a business.
Aaron's approach blends internalfamily systems with neuro
(02:00):
transformational coaching anduser experience psychology to
help leaders break limitpatterns and create businesses
that thrive without.
Burnout.
I can't like waited so long forsomebody to say that it's
possible to run a businesswithout burnout or in, and it is
possible.
Before we get into the meet andboards, I've got, again, I feel
(02:20):
like I, I do bios for our guestsand I have so many questions
brimming at the surface that Iwant to get into, but I'm gonna
pause on some of thosequestions.
I'm gonna come right back to thebeginning.
You've done an incredible amountwith your life.
Take us back to the beginning ofthat journey, wherever that
means for you wherever thestarting point was of your
journey into the aspects thatmake you who you are, Was, what
(02:43):
was that inflection point foryou?
Would you say?
Erin (02:45):
I'll start with saying I was fascinated with the human
mind from my whole life, right?
Which is what got me into socialpsychology.
And not everybody knows whatsocial psychology is.
They think of psychologists astherapists and working on mental
health and.
I was just fascinated with howdoes our brain work and how do
we tick?
And that led me down the path ofmy PhD and led me to Facebook
(03:07):
where I could, think about howdo we help people in the social
world of billions.
But come 2017, my mom actuallywas about this time, 2017, my
mom had a really freak illness.
She went in the hospital withback pain and it turned into.
Spinal meningitis and she was inthe ICU for about five weeks.
(03:27):
We didn't even know if she wasgonna wake up, didn't know if
she was gonna ever move again.
And at the same time, I wasworking at Facebook, I was
leading a team of researchers.
We were trying to get Facebookstories launched to the world.
And so I was managing all thestress of getting, my team to,
to do the work they needed todo.
Working with, Zuckerberg evenabout are we launching this
(03:48):
thing while also sitting in theICU waiting room?
Hoping my mom's gonna wake up.
And that inflection point wasreally that space of what am I
really doing here?
Every time I was with my mom,she was in a rehab hospital for
almost six months, relearning tomove literally a finger at a
time, and I'm sitting heregoing, okay.
I wanna be present for this, butI've got a team of researchers
(04:10):
that need me back in SanFrancisco.
And then when I was in SanFrancisco, I was like my mom
needs me, right?
And so I really just settledinto, yeah, what am I here to be
doing?
What impact do I wanna make onthis planet?
And it started me down thisentire path of I really wanna
help people.
I didn't know the word joy wasnot on my radar at that point.
(04:30):
And it was only a few yearslater after that when I realized
it.
But it was really, I wanteverybody to, to.
To live an impactful, purposefullife.
And I watched myself on thisladder and this kind of bullet
train, at Facebook.
I went, what am I doing thisfor?
(04:50):
I know, Paul, we've had someoffline discussions about
shoulds, right?
I was, should upon myself, allover myself about, this is the
career trajectory I'm supposedto be on.
And now wait a sec, there's moreto life than this career path.
What don't wanna do with mylife, and who do I wanna help?
And so that was really theinflection point that got me
into the coaching business.
(05:11):
And I realized that for years Ididn't have coaching as a word,
but that's what I had beenalways wanting to do.
PAul (05:17):
To rewind back, like getting to the point where you
have a PhD is a lot ofcommitments, a lot of time over
a lot of years
Erin (05:23):
Yeah,
PAul (05:23):
you can't, you don't get that far without the drive.
Erin (05:26):
right.
PAul (05:27):
What was your original intended career path?
Was it to be that person thatFacebook or did that kind of
happen because you got where youwere?
'cause nobody ever gets wherethey
Erin (05:37):
Yeah.
PAul (05:37):
Go.
They go where they're meant tobe.
Erin (05:39):
Yes.
I tell people all the timepeople come to me for coaching
and they want a five year visionand they wanna map, every step
along the path of that five yearvision.
And I say, you cannot evenimagine.
What's outside the map of what'spossible.
Right now your map is based onyour past history and your
current viewpoint, and so I saythat because none of my career
(06:02):
path was an intentional thing.
I say I'm an accidental, I wasan accidental Facebook
researcher.
I'm an accidental entrepreneur.
I just knew at some point I grewup with academic parents and I
knew I was really into socialpsychology, and so I went to
grad school with a, I don't knowwhat I'm gonna do with it.
But I thought I would stay inacademia because that's what I
knew as possible.
(06:24):
And so I was going down thatpath and my advisor was
preparing me for all the jobmarket.
And there was another researcherin the clinical side of the
department who said, Hey, I justhad an internet chip at
Facebook.
They're hiring.
And I went, a, they're not gonnahire me.
Why would they hire me?
And also, I didn't likeFacebook.
I'll be real honest, I was not asocial media user, but I
(06:45):
thought, I'll take theinterview.
Why not?
This will be an experience.
And lo and behold, on ChristmasEve, the year, the six months
before I graduate from my PhDprogram, I got an offer saying,
would you come join us?
And I went, huh, okay, here wego.
So it was not planned.
It was, it had a lot ofpositives, a lot of negatives
working there.
And then the coaching piece wasnot planned.
(07:05):
It was just, oh, there's this, Iactually hired a woman I met at
a conference.
I thought she was, I thoughtcoaching was bullshit, to be
honest, and, but I hired her fora couple hundred dollars and she
was changing my life.
And I went, huh, this is whatI've always wanted to do.
And so I've just followed, huh.
And that's a big part offollowing joy, right?
Is, oh, I'm curious about this.
(07:26):
Lemme go try this and see whatcomes of it.
PAul (07:29):
I think that's the bit that, that we should spend more
time educating young people andchildren on at a very early age
there are so few people who areable to articulate to them what,
following your passion and beingcurious means.
We are so busy pressuring youngpeople into following a career
(07:51):
path, and then for their wholecareer, we pressure them into
committing to further to thatcareer path that we forget that
there are so much, there's
Erin (08:00):
Yeah.
PAul (08:01):
so many Jobs and opportunities out there
Erin (08:03):
Yeah.
PAul (08:03):
that you can Carve out for yourself brave enough to follow
what makes you smile?
Erin (08:08):
Yes.
PAul (08:08):
I think that's the beauty of what you've said today is.
You were able to follow whatmade you smile and you can call
that fortunate if you like, butI also know it's intentional.
You've gotta be brave.
And this,
Erin (08:17):
Yes,
PAul (08:18):
and ive no
Erin (08:18):
doubt there
PAul (08:18):
were some moments along that way where you questioned
yourself.
Erin (08:21):
Always.
I still do on a regular basis,what am I doing?
But it's, I've taught myself nowafter, I've finished my PhD over
10 years ago, so I've been onthis path.
Of just following what comes myway and being curious.
And I've taught myself that Ialways end up doing something
(08:41):
way more interesting than if Iwould've followed that,
demarcated path or having thatmap.
And I've also taught myself thatif something goes, sideways,
which in life everything can gosideways in an instant.
My mom's illness was likeovernight, right?
And I just taught myself, okay,when things go sideways.
(09:02):
I know how to ride that.
I know how to now, okay, findsomething else to do, right?
That makes you smile ortemporarily do something that
you don't love, knowing that ina few months you can go back to
the thing you do.
PAul (09:14):
Yeah, I think that's.
It's about experimenting so youcan figure out for you Which
leads us nicely into, and I'dlove to hear your take on this.
What in your eyes is thedifference between, we, we
talked about joy being a fluffyconcept,
Erin (09:29):
Yes.
PAul (09:30):
I think a lots of people who are listening along or be
nodding along In yourdescription, your words, what's
the difference between beingjoyful and joyful?
Erin (09:39):
Yeah, that's.
That's one of my favoritequestions, so I'm so glad you
asked it.
I'll start before I even saythat, saying that people have a
mis misconception of joy andhappiness, and a lot of us in
our careers are chasing thehappiness.
And that's the the promotionsthe revenue targets the
monuments like buying a house, acar.
(09:59):
And we'll say, I will be happywhen I get that promotion, when
I finish that project.
And so along the way, there'swhat I call it miserable in it
because they're holding off thatpositive feeling until that
external circumstance happens.
And to me, that's no way to livebecause external circumstances,
sometimes we don't get thatpromotion and we don't get that
(10:19):
project done.
And it's not because there'ssomething wrong with us, just
life happens.
And so Joy is this great thingwhere it's about being.
In the moment, it's accessibleto us at any time.
It's about being present andbeing, we've already talked
about, curious and connected towhat, feels purposeful and
connected to how we best dothings and taking courageous
(10:40):
action.
And I say don't put off yourhappiness.
Don't chase happiness at theexpense of your joy.
And joy is not just some joyfulversus joyful.
Joy is not just focusing on thatfluffy I'm feeling good, I'm
feeling delightful.
Joyful is about, yeah, takingsome courageous risks, which can
be scary.
(11:00):
It's about being with thefailure and being with the pain.
I've been writing a lot aboutthis with the current situation
in the United States, right?
We are scared about what ishappening and following Joy is
not about putting our heads inthe sand and saying, this isn't
happening.
It's about how do we allow thesemoments of delight and
(11:22):
satisfaction alongside the fear,alongside the pain, alongside
the anger and all of it.
So it's really about how do webe with the fullness of our
human experience and experiencewhat I call true joy, which is
being fully human.
PAul (11:39):
And I think that's a totally different answer to most
people would've expected you tocome out with and, when i Read
that in the book, there was abit of a light bulb moment for
me because I was like, ha,somebody else who thinks the
same way I do It, it, itshouldn't, like you almo, it's
almost like you give mepermission to thi to believe
that was all okay then, likeit's, I'm not just this weird
person who thinks that thisshould be the case.
(12:00):
I've people on LinkedIn.
Oh, look at my new Land Rover.
I'm over the moon for you.
Look at my new house.
Brilliant.
I'm over the Moon for you.
Are you happy?
Because I think to your point, alot of people confuse the word
happy with the word joy they'vegot in their head, it probably
means the same thing as what youare talking about with joy,
right?
Are you happy because Your LandRover might give you a bit of
(12:22):
excitement and it might be niceto drive around in it.
I'm not gonna say it's anegative thing, but ultimately.
in a week's time.
In a month's time, you're gonnascuff the alloy on the side.
You're gonna curb it, you'regonna,
Erin (12:32):
Yep.
PAul (12:32):
You're gonna have a prang on the front and,
Erin (12:34):
Yeah.
PAul (12:35):
like, it's just gonna be another car.
Erin (12:37):
Yeah, we have a happiness baseline, and science actually
talks about this.
We have this baseline thatevery, we can have that little
spike of delight or whatever youwanna call it, and then
eventually it goes back down andwe end up being on this almost
hamster wheel of chasing thatnext spike.
Whereas Joy is this.
It's not always calm.
You can be excited in your joy,but it's this thing of am I
(13:00):
really, immersed in my workright now?
Am I really present?
Am I in?
People talk about flow.
I think flow and joy are verysimilar and it's, yeah, you
don't have to look outside ofyourself for it and it doesn't
spike.
It's this endless.
And even if you, I'll ask yourlisteners, think back to last
time you really felt joyful inyour day.
(13:21):
And I'm, I imagine it feltsteady rather than spiky.
PAul (13:25):
Absolutely.
Absolutely.
I wonder then what's.
What was the path for you torelease the book?
Because the book starts as anidea.
It necess necessarily start as abook.
And having spoke to a couple ofother guests who've released
book, I think it came from ideasthat they were passing on to
their colleagues and friends andit resonated and so they decided
to do something about it.
(13:46):
Is, does that sound familiar foryou or did you have a different
path for that?
Erin (13:50):
It was two twofold.
One being I'll, I'm selfishlygonna admit I had this limiting
belief that despite the factthat I did a PhD and wrote a
dissertation, that I wasn't thesort of person who could write a
book.
And so I just turned on myinward and said, let me
challenge myself to write a bookeven if it never gets released.
(14:10):
The other piece was I was doinga podcast at the time called
Life in the, and you alreadyheard me heard talk about joy
and right, joy and pain, joy andgrief.
But I really like this idea ofliving with nuance and
complexity and people we live insuch a black and white world.
And so sharing a whole lot ofstuff around that.
And I thought maybe there's abook in that.
So I went to work with a bookcoach and quite quickly after
(14:34):
starting to write, and thisisn't the book, but I don't know
what is.
And so the book coach and I saidlet's just start exploring what
I have to share.
What have I been putting,together with my clients?
And it took, gosh, another eightmonths of me writing and going,
this isn't it.
This isn't it.
I got all down the path ofwriting a book about the
business wilderness.
And it was really cheeky and Iliked it, but it still wasn't
(14:57):
it.
And then my wife at the time andI were having a conversation and
I asked her, what are yourfriends who are entrepreneurs
struggling with?
And she said they don't wannahate their business.
And I said that's not a, youcan't write a book about not
hating your business.
What's the opposite of that?
And the word joy came to me andit was so out of left field for
me because I didn't resonatewith that word.
(15:19):
So those of you who arethinking, this is really fluffy,
I was with you.
I had a friend who had thisworld joy movement going, and I
thought, yeah, that's, thatmakes sense for him.
His smile, sends way outside ofhis face.
But then when I started lookingback at my business trajectory,
and even my time at Facebook,the times when I was quote
unquote successful was when Iwas following what now I call
(15:41):
joy.
And the times when things feltreally sticky or stressful, it
was when I was shooting uponmyself and saying, this is what
I'm supposed to be doing and notfollowing my joy.
And so it was this process ofdiscovery along the way that
there's this word that I didn'treally resonate with, but is
actually how I've been living mylife and how what I've been
(16:02):
passing along to my clients.
PAul (16:03):
Amazing.There's, there's, I could probably spend up the
rest of the afternoon asking youquestions about all of this and
at some point viewers need tostop listening to the podcast
and go and live their life aswell.
So I'll,
Erin (16:14):
Yeah.
PAul (16:15):
kind fast forward through, through some of my questions.
I might email you later.
So then for yourself inattracting clients that you
would like to work with.
Could you outline what yourbasic approach is?
Because you've got a veryspecific sort of clientele that
you wanna work with,
Erin (16:32):
Yeah.
PAul (16:32):
It's quite hard to reach them most of the time because of
their seniority in previousexperiences.
So what's your approach withthat side of things?
Erin (16:40):
Yeah.
So I'll say just who I workwith.
I tend to work with verymission-driven ambitious.
Leaders who they don'tnecessarily know that joy is
something they wanna work with.
And that's not necessarily whatI'm advertising.
Joy tends to be the strategy wecome to a little later down the
road after working.
It's really about they wanna bedoing something that's really
(17:02):
meaningful and impactful andchanging lives, and they don't
know exactly how to do it.
And they wanna do it from aplace of they'll use words like
my way, right?
They don't want the blueprint.
And they're the type of peoplewho shouldn't follow a
blueprint.
They really are brilliantpeople.
So traditional marketing is nothow I roll.
It's not one of my joys either.
(17:24):
And so I have built my entirebusiness based on relationships.
Having really good chats withpeople and realizing, oh, I can
help you.
Would you like to experience acoaching session or.
Talking to a colleague and theygo, oh, I know someone who's
building a business right nowwho could really use your
support.
And so it's been a process ofreally for me leaning into
(17:44):
what's my joy, which isconnection and conversation and
saying I don't have to do thetraditional marketing
strategies.
And actually the traditionalmarketing strategies are not
where my people are hanging out.
So it's been really I'll say Istruggle with it sometimes
because the noise in thebusiness community is so loud
about what you're the, here'sthe blueprint, here's what
(18:05):
you're supposed to be doing, andI have to come back and go, no,
I'm gonna follow my joy and I'mgonna find my people that way.
PAul (18:12):
I think that's, I think that's a valid statement to make
is that a lot of people feelthat.
Unless they're doing traditionalmarketing, unless they're
spending money on paid media andthey're getting an SEO done on
their website and somebody'swriting articles that they can
correct and have listed onthat's one way of doing things.
But Organic marketing and whatmy colleagues might term near
(18:35):
bound strategy, right?
Like refferals And partnershipsconversations with real people
about real topics where.
It's not transactional.
Actually, that all works too,And I think it boils down to how
much you can narrow down yourtarget audience for a lot of
people.
So a lot of people are still toobroad and are worried that by
(18:55):
having individual conversations,they're not spending the time
with the broader audience.
Erin (19:01):
Yeah.
PAul (19:01):
Whereas what I can see, what you've done is you've very
clearly articulated who youraudience is and who you want to
be speaking to.
And so it's easy to spot who youshould or shouldn't be having
conversations with, right?
Like you,
Erin (19:13):
Yeah.
PAul (19:13):
Today, like for the podcast, like I've now got to
this point where I know who myguests should be.
I know who will be a greatconversation, who not, and I'm
cheeky enough to just drop thema message in a nice way and just
ask for a conversation.
I think in that way youprobably, and correct me if I'm
wrong, you probably feel asthough actually doing those
(19:33):
conversations is almost as muchfun as doing the work itself.
Erin (19:37):
Oh, absolutely.
It's such a joy and I tellpeople when it comes to building
a business, I think there's kindof two sides of it.
That's who's your target marketand where are they?
But also.
What are you great at?
So there are some people who arebrilliant at writing and
marketing, and so actually surego for that, right?
Or,
PAul (19:56):
Yep.
Erin (19:57):
They're great networkers.
I know people who go tonetworking events all the time
and walk away with all kinds ofleads or they're great speakers
and so they go speak atconferences and it's okay.
Go follow what you are best at.
That also your target people aregonna be there to hear you,
right?
Yeah, I find the conversationpart very joyful.
(20:19):
And I go in without into, and Iknow I never go in with an
intention to, to market, right?
I'm here to have a conversation.
We'll see what happens.
That might be a client, thatmight be a partnership, that
might be a friend.
That might just be aconversation.
That was great and see youlater.
PAul (20:33):
I have to say I think that your previous experience sets
you up with the skills to be agreat conversationalist as well.
I think that's.
Kinda the path that you've beenon between neuroscience and
psychology and user experience.
'cause let's be honest, like I,I dunno if a lot of the audience
understand the user experienceworld.
I know a little bit about theuser experience.
(20:54):
I understand why psychology isimportant to but you need to
again, be very good atinterviewing people and
Erin (20:59):
Yes,
PAul (20:59):
getting things out of them, drawn out the things that
they don't even know that theyneed to tell you yet.
something that you've honed overa lot of
Erin (21:05):
Yes.
It's one of my superpowers isgetting to what's really
underneath what this person'ssaying, what they need, and then
drawing connections andpatterns.
And when it was a userexperience, it may, might be
patterns across, the 10 peopleI've spoken to, what are the
themes?
When it's a client, it's how doI draw those patterns out of
them over time, and so I cancome back and say, oh, hey Paul,
(21:26):
we've worked together for a yearand remember that thing you said
a year ago now that's relatingto this thing you're saying to
me now.
So it helps me both as amarketer and as a coach is what
I'm trying to say.
PAul (21:36):
Oh, no, I, and I think that's, but I think people try
and separate out marketing fromrunning their business too much
Right?
Erin (21:44):
Yes.
PAul (21:44):
For a small business owner or a solopreneur or a small
business, like marketing isn'tsomebody else.
It isn't something else.
It's one aspect of what you needto do and do It well, rather
than treat it as somethingdifferent, you need to.
To your point, use yourstrengths and skills to, to do
what you can do best in a waythat you enjoy.
'cause if you don't enjoy doingthe marketing side, or you're
(22:06):
not doing it in a way that youenjoy it, you'll just not do it,
which won't Business.
You need to get some marketingdone.
Erin (22:11):
right.
I think also people try to dotoo many things at once.
Oh, I'm gonna, I'm gonnanetwork.
I'm gonna post online.
I'm gonna write blogs.
I'm going to, and.
They're just, their energy is soscattered and also they're doing
more marketing than they need tobe doing.
It's to your point, when youknow your target and you know
what you're joyful at, you cando a whole lot less of it more
(22:32):
effectively.
PAul (22:33):
Exactly that.
Exactly that.
My, my day-to-day business isvideo and I can't record enough
videos.
I can't, like LinkedIn won't letme post enough videos out in a
day without penalizing me.
It's, I genuinely, I enjoy doingthe video.
I don't see, I don't enjoyseeing them back.
I have to admit I still hateseeing myself on video.
And my
Erin (22:49):
I get that.
PAul (22:50):
is awful.
But I do enjoy sharing valuewith people, which is I think
there's no other way you can dothat better than video.
If you were to flip that idea onits head, what are two or three
things that you would advisebusiness owners out there today?
Perhaps noticing that they'vegot some sight and some signs of
burnout.
That they're doing too much,they're not spending enough time
(23:10):
with their family or whatever itis that makes them joyful in
their.
Joyful in their world.
What would you ask them to stopand do and think about in order
to put them in a better positionto be, to move forward
successfully?
Erin (23:23):
Yeah, so there's two things that come to mind that I
think you can do simultaneously.
One being, I know it's hard forpeople to rest.
And it feels crappy when we doit because we're so used to
being on all the time.
It's almost like a detox fromthe stress, right?
So rest feels worse thancontinuing going, but if you can
give yourself even just a fewmoments of rest, and rest
(23:44):
doesn't have to be on the couch.
It could be creative endeavors,it could be social endeavors.
There's, I think, sevendifferent forms of rest.
Seeing if you can challengeyourself to rest a little bit.
That's the first part.
The other is what I call the joyaudit.
And I would say take a week.
And every day I just have apiece of paper with a line down
the middle and on the left it'severy person, project, thought
(24:08):
activity that brings you joy.
And then on the right side isthe opposite, right?
Every person, project, thoughtactivity that drains you.
And at the end of that week, Iwant you to look at first the
left side of the joy, thingsthat brought you joy.
How do I do more of that?
But on the right side, getreally honest with yourself.
How many of these joy drains doyou really have to be doing?
(24:30):
Which can you just drop alltogether or outsource?
Lot of the source of our burnoutis the things we are telling
ourself.
I should be doing this, I haveto be doing this.
You're honest.
Do you need to?
And then of the things that are,okay, I really do have to do
this like it's tax season in theUnited States.
I have to do my taxes.
(24:50):
What can I do to make that justan ounce more joyful?
And so for me, it might be justsomething simple as putting on a
playlist that I like doing mytaxes.
But if you can get really honestwith what's draining you and
drop some of it, and then turnsome of those into joy,
infusers.
That really starts to help withthe burnout, and I recommend
(25:12):
with my clients that they dothis, every quarter even,
because it's so easy for theplate to pile up again with the
strips.
PAul (25:18):
That's fantastic advice.
I love it.
love it.
Erin, it's been fantastic totalk with you today.
I, we'll have to invite you backagain for another round because
I've thoroughly enjoyed it.
There's so much more that we candive into.
But if people are listeningalong and they're curious to
find out more about the book,I'll obviously put the link for
the book in the shore notesbelow.
How else can they read moreabout what you coach things
(25:39):
about or contact you directly ifthey wanted to?
Erin (25:42):
Yeah, so there's a couple different ways.
I, my website is dr aaron b.com,so there's a bit about my
coaching there.
You can also find me on LinkedInand there's a link on my
LinkedIn to my new Substackcalled, Hey, where's the joy?
It's not just about professionaljoy, but how do we.
In this time we're living in,and it's not just those of us in
(26:03):
the United States in this time.
We're living in how do wecontinue to seek joy in the
uncertainty in these crazytimes.
PAul (26:10):
Fantastic.
Oh, drop me those links over andI will make sure they're in the
show notes.
Erin (26:14):
Great.
PAul (26:14):
Thank you very much for being a fantastic guest in, it's
welcome a
Erin (26:18):
welcome.
Thank you for having me.
PAul (26:20):
Most importantly, thank you guys and girls at home for
watching along.
It's much appreciated that youjoin us.
Thank you for your subscription.
Thank you for your reviews, andplease feel free to send the
episode to somebody you thinkmight get some benefit.
Do you know somebody who'ssuffering from burnout?
Do you know somebody who justneeds a bit more joy in their
life?
Please send them the episode.
If we achieve anything podcast,it's I want to be adding real
(26:43):
value to people and there are somany people out there that are
just miserable at work.
This episode's for them.
We'll see you next week onMarketPulse Pros and Pioneers.
Hello and good afternoon ladies and gentlemen in the
(00:03):
audience.
you roll your eyes when somebodymentions joy?
It feels like a really fluffyconcept for many, and I'm not
gonna lie, I felt exactly thesame until I was fortunate
enough to be gifted with thetitle of our guest today's book,
is Joyful as.
(00:24):
f*ck or"how to be"! today issomebody who I've wanted to meet
for the longest time because oneof my clients worked with them
on their own coaching businessand actually featured in our
guest's book.
And that gave me reason to readthe book even though I thought
the ideal behind it might be abit cringe, might be a bit, not
(00:47):
me,'cause I'm quite a direct.
Earth person.
I've come from a background ofretail and yet I was blown away
by the book, blown away by theconcepts and how the concept of
joy could be something otherthan what I pictured it to be.
And being joyful is verydifferent to being joyful, which
(01:07):
is an important differentiationto make.
Today's guest is no than Dr.
Erin Burgoon.
lovely to have you on the show.
Erin (01:14):
It is so good to be here.
PAul (01:16):
Dr.
Erin is a social psychologist,an executive coach, and a
bestselling author on a missionto help business leaders and
entrepreneurs build prosperous,purpose-driven businesses with a
PhD in psychology and leadershiproles at Facebook and Microsoft
are in combined science-backedstrategies with human-centered
coaching to help organizationscultivate joy as a business
(01:39):
advantage.
Their book, joyful As f*ck.
Can I dunno if I can say that onLinkedIn?!! AF! The essential
business strategy we're afraidto put first" Challenges the
notion that success and joy area separate for a new way to lead
market and grow a business.
Aaron's approach blends internalfamily systems with neuro
(02:00):
transformational coaching anduser experience psychology to
help leaders break limitpatterns and create businesses
that thrive without.
Burnout.
I can't like waited so long forsomebody to say that it's
possible to run a businesswithout burnout or in, and it is
possible.
Before we get into the meet andboards, I've got, again, I feel
(02:20):
like I, I do bios for our guestsand I have so many questions
brimming at the surface that Iwant to get into, but I'm gonna
pause on some of thosequestions.
I'm gonna come right back to thebeginning.
You've done an incredible amountwith your life.
Take us back to the beginning ofthat journey, wherever that
means for you wherever thestarting point was of your
journey into the aspects thatmake you who you are, Was, what
(02:43):
was that inflection point foryou?
Would you say?
Erin (02:45):
I'll start with saying I was fascinated with the human
mind from my whole life, right?
Which is what got me into socialpsychology.
And not everybody knows whatsocial psychology is.
They think of psychologists astherapists and working on mental
health and.
I was just fascinated with howdoes our brain work and how do
we tick?
And that led me down the path ofmy PhD and led me to Facebook
(03:07):
where I could, think about howdo we help people in the social
world of billions.
But come 2017, my mom actuallywas about this time, 2017, my
mom had a really freak illness.
She went in the hospital withback pain and it turned into.
Spinal meningitis and she was inthe ICU for about five weeks.
(03:27):
We didn't even know if she wasgonna wake up, didn't know if
she was gonna ever move again.
And at the same time, I wasworking at Facebook, I was
leading a team of researchers.
We were trying to get Facebookstories launched to the world.
And so I was managing all thestress of getting, my team to,
to do the work they needed todo.
Working with, Zuckerberg evenabout are we launching this
(03:48):
thing while also sitting in theICU waiting room?
Hoping my mom's gonna wake up.
And that inflection point wasreally that space of what am I
really doing here?
Every time I was with my mom,she was in a rehab hospital for
almost six months, relearning tomove literally a finger at a
time, and I'm sitting heregoing, okay.
I wanna be present for this, butI've got a team of researchers
(04:10):
that need me back in SanFrancisco.
And then when I was in SanFrancisco, I was like my mom
needs me, right?
And so I really just settledinto, yeah, what am I here to be
doing?
What impact do I wanna make onthis planet?
And it started me down thisentire path of I really wanna
help people.
I didn't know the word joy wasnot on my radar at that point.
(04:30):
And it was only a few yearslater after that when I realized
it.
But it was really, I wanteverybody to, to.
To live an impactful, purposefullife.
And I watched myself on thisladder and this kind of bullet
train, at Facebook.
I went, what am I doing thisfor?
(04:50):
I know, Paul, we've had someoffline discussions about
shoulds, right?
I was, should upon myself, allover myself about, this is the
career trajectory I'm supposedto be on.
And now wait a sec, there's moreto life than this career path.
What don't wanna do with mylife, and who do I wanna help?
And so that was really theinflection point that got me
into the coaching business.
(05:11):
And I realized that for years Ididn't have coaching as a word,
but that's what I had beenalways wanting to do.
PAul (05:17):
To rewind back, like getting to the point where you
have a PhD is a lot ofcommitments, a lot of time over
a lot of years
Erin (05:23):
Yeah,
PAul (05:23):
you can't, you don't get that far without the drive.
Erin (05:26):
right.
PAul (05:27):
What was your original intended career path?
Was it to be that person thatFacebook or did that kind of
happen because you got where youwere?
'cause nobody ever gets wherethey
Erin (05:37):
Yeah.
PAul (05:37):
Go.
They go where they're meant tobe.
Erin (05:39):
Yes.
I tell people all the timepeople come to me for coaching
and they want a five year visionand they wanna map, every step
along the path of that five yearvision.
And I say, you cannot evenimagine.
What's outside the map of what'spossible.
Right now your map is based onyour past history and your
current viewpoint, and so I saythat because none of my career
(06:02):
path was an intentional thing.
I say I'm an accidental, I wasan accidental Facebook
researcher.
I'm an accidental entrepreneur.
I just knew at some point I grewup with academic parents and I
knew I was really into socialpsychology, and so I went to
grad school with a, I don't knowwhat I'm gonna do with it.
But I thought I would stay inacademia because that's what I
knew as possible.
(06:24):
And so I was going down thatpath and my advisor was
preparing me for all the jobmarket.
And there was another researcherin the clinical side of the
department who said, Hey, I justhad an internet chip at
Facebook.
They're hiring.
And I went, a, they're not gonnahire me.
Why would they hire me?
And also, I didn't likeFacebook.
I'll be real honest, I was not asocial media user, but I
(06:45):
thought, I'll take theinterview.
Why not?
This will be an experience.
And lo and behold, on ChristmasEve, the year, the six months
before I graduate from my PhDprogram, I got an offer saying,
would you come join us?
And I went, huh, okay, here wego.
So it was not planned.
It was, it had a lot ofpositives, a lot of negatives
working there.
And then the coaching piece wasnot planned.
(07:05):
It was just, oh, there's this, Iactually hired a woman I met at
a conference.
I thought she was, I thoughtcoaching was bullshit, to be
honest, and, but I hired her fora couple hundred dollars and she
was changing my life.
And I went, huh, this is whatI've always wanted to do.
And so I've just followed, huh.
And that's a big part offollowing joy, right?
Is, oh, I'm curious about this.
(07:26):
Lemme go try this and see whatcomes of it.
PAul (07:29):
I think that's the bit that, that we should spend more
time educating young people andchildren on at a very early age
there are so few people who areable to articulate to them what,
following your passion and beingcurious means.
We are so busy pressuring youngpeople into following a career
(07:51):
path, and then for their wholecareer, we pressure them into
committing to further to thatcareer path that we forget that
there are so much, there's
Erin (08:00):
Yeah.
PAul (08:01):
so many Jobs and opportunities out there
Erin (08:03):
Yeah.
PAul (08:03):
that you can Carve out for yourself brave enough to follow
what makes you smile?
Erin (08:08):
Yes.
PAul (08:08):
I think that's the beauty of what you've said today is.
You were able to follow whatmade you smile and you can call
that fortunate if you like, butI also know it's intentional.
You've gotta be brave.
And this,
Erin (08:17):
Yes,
PAul (08:18):
and ive no
Erin (08:18):
doubt there
PAul (08:18):
were some moments along that way where you questioned
yourself.
Erin (08:21):
Always.
I still do on a regular basis,what am I doing?
But it's, I've taught myself nowafter, I've finished my PhD over
10 years ago, so I've been onthis path.
Of just following what comes myway and being curious.
And I've taught myself that Ialways end up doing something
(08:41):
way more interesting than if Iwould've followed that,
demarcated path or having thatmap.
And I've also taught myself thatif something goes, sideways,
which in life everything can gosideways in an instant.
My mom's illness was likeovernight, right?
And I just taught myself, okay,when things go sideways.
(09:02):
I know how to ride that.
I know how to now, okay, findsomething else to do, right?
That makes you smile ortemporarily do something that
you don't love, knowing that ina few months you can go back to
the thing you do.
PAul (09:14):
Yeah, I think that's.
It's about experimenting so youcan figure out for you Which
leads us nicely into, and I'dlove to hear your take on this.
What in your eyes is thedifference between, we, we
talked about joy being a fluffyconcept,
Erin (09:29):
Yes.
PAul (09:30):
I think a lots of people who are listening along or be
nodding along In yourdescription, your words, what's
the difference between beingjoyful and joyful?
Erin (09:39):
Yeah, that's.
That's one of my favoritequestions, so I'm so glad you
asked it.
I'll start before I even saythat, saying that people have a
mis misconception of joy andhappiness, and a lot of us in
our careers are chasing thehappiness.
And that's the the promotionsthe revenue targets the
monuments like buying a house, acar.
(09:59):
And we'll say, I will be happywhen I get that promotion, when
I finish that project.
And so along the way, there'swhat I call it miserable in it
because they're holding off thatpositive feeling until that
external circumstance happens.
And to me, that's no way to livebecause external circumstances,
sometimes we don't get thatpromotion and we don't get that
(10:19):
project done.
And it's not because there'ssomething wrong with us, just
life happens.
And so Joy is this great thingwhere it's about being.
In the moment, it's accessibleto us at any time.
It's about being present andbeing, we've already talked
about, curious and connected towhat, feels purposeful and
connected to how we best dothings and taking courageous
(10:40):
action.
And I say don't put off yourhappiness.
Don't chase happiness at theexpense of your joy.
And joy is not just some joyfulversus joyful.
Joy is not just focusing on thatfluffy I'm feeling good, I'm
feeling delightful.
Joyful is about, yeah, takingsome courageous risks, which can
be scary.
(11:00):
It's about being with thefailure and being with the pain.
I've been writing a lot aboutthis with the current situation
in the United States, right?
We are scared about what ishappening and following Joy is
not about putting our heads inthe sand and saying, this isn't
happening.
It's about how do we allow thesemoments of delight and
(11:22):
satisfaction alongside the fear,alongside the pain, alongside
the anger and all of it.
So it's really about how do webe with the fullness of our
human experience and experiencewhat I call true joy, which is
being fully human.
PAul (11:39):
And I think that's a totally different answer to most
people would've expected you tocome out with and, when i Read
that in the book, there was abit of a light bulb moment for
me because I was like, ha,somebody else who thinks the
same way I do It, it, itshouldn't, like you almo, it's
almost like you give mepermission to thi to believe
that was all okay then, likeit's, I'm not just this weird
person who thinks that thisshould be the case.
(12:00):
I've people on LinkedIn.
Oh, look at my new Land Rover.
I'm over the moon for you.
Look at my new house.
Brilliant.
I'm over the Moon for you.
Are you happy?
Because I think to your point, alot of people confuse the word
happy with the word joy they'vegot in their head, it probably
means the same thing as what youare talking about with joy,
right?
Are you happy because Your LandRover might give you a bit of
(12:22):
excitement and it might be niceto drive around in it.
I'm not gonna say it's anegative thing, but ultimately.
in a week's time.
In a month's time, you're gonnascuff the alloy on the side.
You're gonna curb it, you'regonna,
Erin (12:32):
Yep.
PAul (12:32):
You're gonna have a prang on the front and,
Erin (12:34):
Yeah.
PAul (12:35):
like, it's just gonna be another car.
Erin (12:37):
Yeah, we have a happiness baseline, and science actually
talks about this.
We have this baseline thatevery, we can have that little
spike of delight or whatever youwanna call it, and then
eventually it goes back down andwe end up being on this almost
hamster wheel of chasing thatnext spike.
Whereas Joy is this.
It's not always calm.
You can be excited in your joy,but it's this thing of am I
(13:00):
really, immersed in my workright now?
Am I really present?
Am I in?
People talk about flow.
I think flow and joy are verysimilar and it's, yeah, you
don't have to look outside ofyourself for it and it doesn't
spike.
It's this endless.
And even if you, I'll ask yourlisteners, think back to last
time you really felt joyful inyour day.
(13:21):
And I'm, I imagine it feltsteady rather than spiky.
PAul (13:25):
Absolutely.
Absolutely.
I wonder then what's.
What was the path for you torelease the book?
Because the book starts as anidea.
It necess necessarily start as abook.
And having spoke to a couple ofother guests who've released
book, I think it came from ideasthat they were passing on to
their colleagues and friends andit resonated and so they decided
to do something about it.
(13:46):
Is, does that sound familiar foryou or did you have a different
path for that?
Erin (13:50):
It was two twofold.
One being I'll, I'm selfishlygonna admit I had this limiting
belief that despite the factthat I did a PhD and wrote a
dissertation, that I wasn't thesort of person who could write a
book.
And so I just turned on myinward and said, let me
challenge myself to write a bookeven if it never gets released.
(14:10):
The other piece was I was doinga podcast at the time called
Life in the, and you alreadyheard me heard talk about joy
and right, joy and pain, joy andgrief.
But I really like this idea ofliving with nuance and
complexity and people we live insuch a black and white world.
And so sharing a whole lot ofstuff around that.
And I thought maybe there's abook in that.
So I went to work with a bookcoach and quite quickly after
(14:34):
starting to write, and thisisn't the book, but I don't know
what is.
And so the book coach and I saidlet's just start exploring what
I have to share.
What have I been putting,together with my clients?
And it took, gosh, another eightmonths of me writing and going,
this isn't it.
This isn't it.
I got all down the path ofwriting a book about the
business wilderness.
And it was really cheeky and Iliked it, but it still wasn't
(14:57):
it.
And then my wife at the time andI were having a conversation and
I asked her, what are yourfriends who are entrepreneurs
struggling with?
And she said they don't wannahate their business.
And I said that's not a, youcan't write a book about not
hating your business.
What's the opposite of that?
And the word joy came to me andit was so out of left field for
me because I didn't resonatewith that word.
(15:19):
So those of you who arethinking, this is really fluffy,
I was with you.
I had a friend who had thisworld joy movement going, and I
thought, yeah, that's, thatmakes sense for him.
His smile, sends way outside ofhis face.
But then when I started lookingback at my business trajectory,
and even my time at Facebook,the times when I was quote
unquote successful was when Iwas following what now I call
(15:41):
joy.
And the times when things feltreally sticky or stressful, it
was when I was shooting uponmyself and saying, this is what
I'm supposed to be doing and notfollowing my joy.
And so it was this process ofdiscovery along the way that
there's this word that I didn'treally resonate with, but is
actually how I've been living mylife and how what I've been
(16:02):
passing along to my clients.
PAul (16:03):
Amazing.There's, there's, I could probably spend up the
rest of the afternoon asking youquestions about all of this and
at some point viewers need tostop listening to the podcast
and go and live their life aswell.
So I'll,
Erin (16:14):
Yeah.
PAul (16:15):
kind fast forward through, through some of my questions.
I might email you later.
So then for yourself inattracting clients that you
would like to work with.
Could you outline what yourbasic approach is?
Because you've got a veryspecific sort of clientele that
you wanna work with,
Erin (16:32):
Yeah.
PAul (16:32):
It's quite hard to reach them most of the time because of
their seniority in previousexperiences.
So what's your approach withthat side of things?
Erin (16:40):
Yeah.
So I'll say just who I workwith.
I tend to work with verymission-driven ambitious.
Leaders who they don'tnecessarily know that joy is
something they wanna work with.
And that's not necessarily whatI'm advertising.
Joy tends to be the strategy wecome to a little later down the
road after working.
It's really about they wanna bedoing something that's really
(17:02):
meaningful and impactful andchanging lives, and they don't
know exactly how to do it.
And they wanna do it from aplace of they'll use words like
my way, right?
They don't want the blueprint.
And they're the type of peoplewho shouldn't follow a
blueprint.
They really are brilliantpeople.
So traditional marketing is nothow I roll.
It's not one of my joys either.
(17:24):
And so I have built my entirebusiness based on relationships.
Having really good chats withpeople and realizing, oh, I can
help you.
Would you like to experience acoaching session or.
Talking to a colleague and theygo, oh, I know someone who's
building a business right nowwho could really use your
support.
And so it's been a process ofreally for me leaning into
(17:44):
what's my joy, which isconnection and conversation and
saying I don't have to do thetraditional marketing
strategies.
And actually the traditionalmarketing strategies are not
where my people are hanging out.
So it's been really I'll say Istruggle with it sometimes
because the noise in thebusiness community is so loud
about what you're the, here'sthe blueprint, here's what
(18:05):
you're supposed to be doing, andI have to come back and go, no,
I'm gonna follow my joy and I'mgonna find my people that way.
PAul (18:12):
I think that's, I think that's a valid statement to make
is that a lot of people feelthat.
Unless they're doing traditionalmarketing, unless they're
spending money on paid media andthey're getting an SEO done on
their website and somebody'swriting articles that they can
correct and have listed onthat's one way of doing things.
But Organic marketing and whatmy colleagues might term near
(18:35):
bound strategy, right?
Like refferals And partnershipsconversations with real people
about real topics where.
It's not transactional.
Actually, that all works too,And I think it boils down to how
much you can narrow down yourtarget audience for a lot of
people.
So a lot of people are still toobroad and are worried that by
(18:55):
having individual conversations,they're not spending the time
with the broader audience.
Erin (19:01):
Yeah.
PAul (19:01):
Whereas what I can see, what you've done is you've very
clearly articulated who youraudience is and who you want to
be speaking to.
And so it's easy to spot who youshould or shouldn't be having
conversations with, right?
Like you,
Erin (19:13):
Yeah.
PAul (19:13):
Today, like for the podcast, like I've now got to
this point where I know who myguests should be.
I know who will be a greatconversation, who not, and I'm
cheeky enough to just drop thema message in a nice way and just
ask for a conversation.
I think in that way youprobably, and correct me if I'm
wrong, you probably feel asthough actually doing those
(19:33):
conversations is almost as muchfun as doing the work itself.
Erin (19:37):
Oh, absolutely.
It's such a joy and I tellpeople when it comes to building
a business, I think there's kindof two sides of it.
That's who's your target marketand where are they?
But also.
What are you great at?
So there are some people who arebrilliant at writing and
marketing, and so actually surego for that, right?
Or,
PAul (19:56):
Yep.
Erin (19:57):
They're great networkers.
I know people who go tonetworking events all the time
and walk away with all kinds ofleads or they're great speakers
and so they go speak atconferences and it's okay.
Go follow what you are best at.
That also your target people aregonna be there to hear you,
right?
Yeah, I find the conversationpart very joyful.
(20:19):
And I go in without into, and Iknow I never go in with an
intention to, to market, right?
I'm here to have a conversation.
We'll see what happens.
That might be a client, thatmight be a partnership, that
might be a friend.
That might just be aconversation.
That was great and see youlater.
PAul (20:33):
I have to say I think that your previous experience sets
you up with the skills to be agreat conversationalist as well.
I think that's.
Kinda the path that you've beenon between neuroscience and
psychology and user experience.
'cause let's be honest, like I,I dunno if a lot of the audience
understand the user experienceworld.
I know a little bit about theuser experience.
(20:54):
I understand why psychology isimportant to but you need to
again, be very good atinterviewing people and
Erin (20:59):
Yes,
PAul (20:59):
getting things out of them, drawn out the things that
they don't even know that theyneed to tell you yet.
something that you've honed overa lot of
Erin (21:05):
Yes.
It's one of my superpowers isgetting to what's really
underneath what this person'ssaying, what they need, and then
drawing connections andpatterns.
And when it was a userexperience, it may, might be
patterns across, the 10 peopleI've spoken to, what are the
themes?
When it's a client, it's how doI draw those patterns out of
them over time, and so I cancome back and say, oh, hey Paul,
(21:26):
we've worked together for a yearand remember that thing you said
a year ago now that's relatingto this thing you're saying to
me now.
So it helps me both as amarketer and as a coach is what
I'm trying to say.
PAul (21:36):
Oh, no, I, and I think that's, but I think people try
and separate out marketing fromrunning their business too much
Right?
Erin (21:44):
Yes.
PAul (21:44):
For a small business owner or a solopreneur or a small
business, like marketing isn'tsomebody else.
It isn't something else.
It's one aspect of what you needto do and do It well, rather
than treat it as somethingdifferent, you need to.
To your point, use yourstrengths and skills to, to do
what you can do best in a waythat you enjoy.
'cause if you don't enjoy doingthe marketing side, or you're
(22:06):
not doing it in a way that youenjoy it, you'll just not do it,
which won't Business.
You need to get some marketingdone.
Erin (22:11):
right.
I think also people try to dotoo many things at once.
Oh, I'm gonna, I'm gonnanetwork.
I'm gonna post online.
I'm gonna write blogs.
I'm going to, and.
They're just, their energy is soscattered and also they're doing
more marketing than they need tobe doing.
It's to your point, when youknow your target and you know
what you're joyful at, you cando a whole lot less of it more
(22:32):
effectively.
PAul (22:33):
Exactly that.
Exactly that.
My, my day-to-day business isvideo and I can't record enough
videos.
I can't, like LinkedIn won't letme post enough videos out in a
day without penalizing me.
It's, I genuinely, I enjoy doingthe video.
I don't see, I don't enjoyseeing them back.
I have to admit I still hateseeing myself on video.
And my
Erin (22:49):
I get that.
PAul (22:50):
is awful.
But I do enjoy sharing valuewith people, which is I think
there's no other way you can dothat better than video.
If you were to flip that idea onits head, what are two or three
things that you would advisebusiness owners out there today?
Perhaps noticing that they'vegot some sight and some signs of
burnout.
That they're doing too much,they're not spending enough time
(23:10):
with their family or whatever itis that makes them joyful in
their.
Joyful in their world.
What would you ask them to stopand do and think about in order
to put them in a better positionto be, to move forward
successfully?
Erin (23:23):
Yeah, so there's two things that come to mind that I
think you can do simultaneously.
One being, I know it's hard forpeople to rest.
And it feels crappy when we doit because we're so used to
being on all the time.
It's almost like a detox fromthe stress, right?
So rest feels worse thancontinuing going, but if you can
give yourself even just a fewmoments of rest, and rest
(23:44):
doesn't have to be on the couch.
It could be creative endeavors,it could be social endeavors.
There's, I think, sevendifferent forms of rest.
Seeing if you can challengeyourself to rest a little bit.
That's the first part.
The other is what I call the joyaudit.
And I would say take a week.
And every day I just have apiece of paper with a line down
the middle and on the left it'severy person, project, thought
(24:08):
activity that brings you joy.
And then on the right side isthe opposite, right?
Every person, project, thoughtactivity that drains you.
And at the end of that week, Iwant you to look at first the
left side of the joy, thingsthat brought you joy.
How do I do more of that?
But on the right side, getreally honest with yourself.
How many of these joy drains doyou really have to be doing?
(24:30):
Which can you just drop alltogether or outsource?
Lot of the source of our burnoutis the things we are telling
ourself.
I should be doing this, I haveto be doing this.
You're honest.
Do you need to?
And then of the things that are,okay, I really do have to do
this like it's tax season in theUnited States.
I have to do my taxes.
(24:50):
What can I do to make that justan ounce more joyful?
And so for me, it might be justsomething simple as putting on a
playlist that I like doing mytaxes.
But if you can get really honestwith what's draining you and
drop some of it, and then turnsome of those into joy,
infusers.
That really starts to help withthe burnout, and I recommend
(25:12):
with my clients that they dothis, every quarter even,
because it's so easy for theplate to pile up again with the
strips.
PAul (25:18):
That's fantastic advice.
I love it.
love it.
Erin, it's been fantastic totalk with you today.
I, we'll have to invite you backagain for another round because
I've thoroughly enjoyed it.
There's so much more that we candive into.
But if people are listeningalong and they're curious to
find out more about the book,I'll obviously put the link for
the book in the shore notesbelow.
How else can they read moreabout what you coach things
(25:39):
about or contact you directly ifthey wanted to?
Erin (25:42):
Yeah, so there's a couple different ways.
I, my website is dr aaron b.com,so there's a bit about my
coaching there.
You can also find me on LinkedInand there's a link on my
LinkedIn to my new Substackcalled, Hey, where's the joy?
It's not just about professionaljoy, but how do we.
In this time we're living in,and it's not just those of us in
(26:03):
the United States in this time.
We're living in how do wecontinue to seek joy in the
uncertainty in these crazytimes.
PAul (26:10):
Fantastic.
Oh, drop me those links over andI will make sure they're in the
show notes.
Erin (26:14):
Great.
PAul (26:14):
Thank you very much for being a fantastic guest in, it's
welcome a
Erin (26:18):
welcome.
Thank you for having me.
PAul (26:20):
Most importantly, thank you guys and girls at home for
watching along.
It's much appreciated that youjoin us.
Thank you for your subscription.
Thank you for your reviews, andplease feel free to send the
episode to somebody you thinkmight get some benefit.
Do you know somebody who'ssuffering from burnout?
Do you know somebody who justneeds a bit more joy in their
life?
Please send them the episode.
If we achieve anything podcast,it's I want to be adding real
(26:43):
value to people and there are somany people out there that are
just miserable at work.
This episode's for them.
We'll see you next week onMarketPulse Pros and Pioneers.
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