October 29, 2025 • 37 mins
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What if the root of your workplace burnout wasn’t overwork—but bad leadership?
In this powerful episode of MarketPulse: Pros and Pioneers, Dr Julie Donley shares her remarkable story—starting from being abandoned at sixteen, to rising as a respected Director of Nursing, and now transforming organisations as a leadership coach. Julie’s journey is deeply personal, often raw, and always insightful. Her path is proof that resilience and a focus on people over process can shape truly impactful leaders.
Julie opens up about the emotional toll of working in psychiatric healthcare, the silent damage caused by toxic leaders, and what it feels like to be thrown into senior leadership with zero support. These defining moments led her to pursue a Doctorate in Organisational Leadership and write her acclaimed book Leading at the Speed of People—a blueprint for compassionate, effective leadership in high-stress environments.
We explore how Julie empowers leaders today to replace stress with strategy, and fear with trust. She doesn’t just speak theory—she’s lived it. Her frameworks for emotional intelligence, employee retention, and team engagement are game-changers for leaders navigating modern workplace challenges.
This episode is packed with stories, real lessons, and surprising truths—like why employees leave more than just jobs, and how empathy directly impacts the bottom line. If you’ve ever doubted whether leadership could be taught, this episode will shift your thinking.
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Dr Julie Donley: https://DrJulieDonley.com
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Paul (00:02):
Stressed out teams, high turnover and poor leadership.
This episode explores howself-awareness and emotional
intelligence are quite often themissing links between burnout
and real business growth.
Dr.
Julie Donley is a leadershipcoach, an award-winning author
and former director of nursing.
(00:23):
With over three decades ofexperience transforming high
pressure workplaces into peoplecentered environments.
Julie has a background thatspans behavioral health,
organizational development, andfrontline healthcare.
She knows what burnout,disengagement, and poor
leadership look like from theinside, and she's led teams
through crises built systemsthat stick and championed
(00:46):
emotional intelligence insectors that traditionally
overlook it.
Now through her company and herbook, leading at the Speed of
People, she helps executives,teams, and businesses lead with
empathy, reduce stress, andcreate real engagement without
compromising performance.
(01:06):
Julie, welcome to the episode.
Thank you for joining us.
Julie (01:10):
Thank you so much, Paul, for having me.
I am excited to be here.
Paul (01:14):
I have to say, I think I you are the second doctor that
we've had on the show.
So, set, setting, setting a highbar for the rest of our guests.
We had Dr.
Erin Burgoon on three or fourmonths ago now and fascinating
conversation.
I love fascinating backgrounds,and your story is no different
from a lot of our other guestsin that you've started in an
area where few would connect youto where you are now.
(01:36):
Why did you get into nursing inthe first place?
Why, what attracted you to it?
Julie (01:41):
Well to nursing, Huh.
I had no idea what I was gonnado when I grew up, and it took
me forever to find that path toget my first degree, which was
in business actually.
But I was really drawn topeople.
And so, and I loved helpingpeople to be their best, to
(02:03):
heal, to grow, and that's whatled me into nursing.
And I.
into psychiatric nursingspecifically because I wanted
to, as I said, help people to betheir best.
And that was sort of where,where I could see me doing the
most good.
Paul (02:20):
Why psychiatric nursing?
Then what?
What sparked you there?
Julie (02:23):
Yeah.
It's interesting.
I just wanted to help people.
I had a really rough.
Time coming out of childhood.
And so, like, my parentsdivorced when I was 16, which is
a horrible time.
I mean, there's never a greattime.
But at 16 everybody left.
So my dad left, my motherchecked out, my sister moved out
'cause she couldn't bear to beleft there either.
(02:46):
And so I like all of a suddenfind myself on my own and really
had no support.
I don't know.
You know, it took me so long toget that first degree and then I
decided on nursing and a friendsaid to me, Hey there's this new
adolescent unit opening at thislocal psychiatric facility.
Why don't you check that out?
(03:07):
So I, I.
You know, I was in my twentiesstill, and I figured, well, why
not?
And I kind of stumbled my waythere, but I was excited about
it.
And I had not entered nursingschool yet.
So I started this job on thispsychiatric unit before I
actually, you know, had evengotten into nursing.
So I was on a waiting list.
So I had to wait a year.
(03:28):
And two things happened.
And the first was that Iabsolutely loved it.
I definitely found a greatplace, a home for me in psych,
and I loved working with thekids.
And so that was the first thing.
And the second thing thathappened was the leadership was
really bad.
so the work environment, now youhave to remember that in a
(03:51):
psychiatric center, it's very.
It's dangerous and you have tobe very careful about how you
display yourself, your emotionalexpressions, everything.
It's emotional.
It's called emotional laborbecause it really is laborious
as to what, how you controlyourself, but also how you know,
(04:12):
understand what others are goingthrough and paying attention to
those cues, those signs, thatdanger may be coming, that kind
of thing.
so when you have a leader thatadds.
To the danger because of herbody language and her lack of
ability to communicate andconnect.
I mean, she was really bad.
She was everything that youcould imagine.
(04:34):
She stirred up chaos and sheplayed favorites and she was
just inappropriate with the menand versus the women.
I mean, it was like everythingthat could go wrong went wrong
with her.
And.
Of course I was still very youngand I'm like watching this
going, what?
Like, don't people understandthat she's causing a lot of
(04:55):
these problems?
And I don't know if theyrealised that or if they just
sort of assumed it wasadolescents, you know, because
nobody wanted to work therebecause of the kids.
But it wasn't just the kids.
She would bark orders at people.
She didn't treat people nice.
And so, and that.
Spurred my interest intoleadership and understanding how
(05:17):
the impact of what a leader doesand how they show up really can
make or break the team and cancreate work environments that
either work really well or don'twork at all.
And that's was my firstexperience, very young in, in
poor leadership.
Paul (05:36):
I think it's interesting that so many people learn just
as many lessons from a poorleadership experience as a good
leadership, possibly more froma, than from a good leadership
experience.
Because when a good leader isthere, kind of everything, just
kind of flows But when there's abad leadership experience, you
start to pick apart the why.
Or if you are, leadershipminded, as I call it.
(05:57):
Like you, you're aware of howleadership works at some base
level, at a people level.
You start to see the linksbetween the behaviors and the
actions and the outcomes and howpeople react to that.
So I think it's interesting.
I guess that desire to put yourown stamp on things is why you
ended up becoming a director ofnursing then?
Julie (06:14):
Yeah and why I got my doctorate in leadership, right?
So I went on to study leadershipto pay.
You know, I was very curious asto, I.
How she could get away with it.
Honestly, that was part of it.
And also, you know, what makesfor a good leader then?
Because that wasn't it.
And so yeah, that really fueledme to study practice get
(06:36):
involved.
And that's what, and yes, I gotto, well, I, I stumbled into
coaching in the coachingprofession in 2001, and loved
that was like a great place forme to continue to play, but with
different, I.
People who were functioning wellin the world, you know, you're
(06:56):
in psych, people are notfunctioning.
That's why they go into ahospital.
So with coaching, you know,that's not where we're playing.
We're playing with people whoare doing great things and they
wanna be even more effective.
So it was sort of a natural, anatural thing for me to move
into.
And and yes, I actually steppedout of coaching to go back into
full-time employment to takethat director position.
(07:19):
I hadn't really left nursing.
I had been just, they call itPRN, where you just sort of take
a shift here and there and Iloved it.
So, you know, I loved playing inthat way and working in that
field.
But thenI was approached byaorganisationon to be their
director and I thought, youknow, what a great opportunity.
And so I dove in and it was agreat opportunity for me.
(07:40):
I was like the right person inthe right place at the right
time, and I knew what needed tobe done.
But boy did I have a badexperience in the beginning
because again, I was ploppedinto this role There was nobody
there to support me.
I mean, it literally was handeda set of keys and basically
said, okay, have at it.
And I'm like, what?
Like, I have three sites.
(08:02):
Can you gimme the addresses ofthe other two sites?
Like that's how bad it was.
And the woman who I wasreplacing, she she hired me very
quickly, like within two weeks Iwas hired and, which is unusual
at that level.
And then she left two monthslater.
So, I.
I, I was really glad that shedid because we would not have
(08:24):
gotten along very well asleaders.
Her leadership style was verychaotic and, and so, but that
first year it, again, it wasjust, it was really a trial for
me.
You know, I knew what needed tobe done.
I just needed to figureeverything out, how to.
Who did, who?
Who did I need to know?
(08:46):
How did I need to navigate itall?
I mean, it was a big job
Paul (08:49):
Yeah.
Julie (08:50):
And I just didn't want anyone else to have to do that.
Have that experience where youdon't really have support from
your upper leadership.
And so I kind of made it mymission not only to do it then,
but as I got through the years,like I didn't want anyone to
have to be orienting themselves,you know, to a job.
(09:11):
And so I sort of made it mymission to make sure what I
could in that role to make surethat the nurses had what they
needed.
To be able to excel in theirroles.
And now as I've left that careerand back into full-time coaching
I have that same mission where Iwant people to feel like they
(09:32):
have the support they need tobe.
Great to thrive in their roles.
And that has always driven meinto whatever I've been doing,
whether it's in, you know,psych.
And I think as a director ofnursing, I was able to control a
lot of that because I was, youknow, I was in charge.
So I was able to make sure thatwe were supporting the staff in
(09:53):
whatever way we could to ensurethat they had what they needed
to be successful.
And it was.
It was great.
I remember one day visiting anurse at one of the nurse.
We had like seven nursingstations, and so one of the
nurses, she had been onvacation.
She was the main nurse for oneof the nursing stations, and she
came back from vacation.
So I visited her I rememberasking her, she told me about
(10:13):
her vacation and she was offwith her friends and she said,
you know, but I was thrilled tocome back to work.
I was ready.
I love it here.
I was happy to come in onMonday.
I don't know what my face lookedlike, but inside I was just
like, oh my God, thank God.
You know?
Yes.
I mean, when your staff tellsyou that they're looking forward
to Mondays, that's, it justtells you're doing something
(10:35):
right, because we know thatstress the most stressful day of
the week, well, do you know whatthe most stressful day of the
week is?
Paul (10:43):
If you start work on a Monday morning, it's a Sunday
afternoon.
Julie (10:46):
Exactly.
It's Sunday afternoon, Sundayevenings, people get really
stressed out'cause they'reanxious about their next day.
And so to have her say that tome, I still like it, still gives
me chills.
I was pretty happy about that.
Paul (10:59):
I know that because I've lived that.
Right.
I've lived that like, like somany people do.
It's, I find it interesting thatyou learn that leadership skill
almost yourself.
Right, like you are trialing andtesting things.
You are navigating by the seatof your pants in an environment
that is, you can't allow thingsto fall over.
So now I learned in retail,right?
And now retail.
(11:20):
Yes, there are some things youcan't allow to fall over.
There are certain things thatshould never, ever be not right.
But there are lots of otherthings that you can let go for a
little while and they'll maybenot be great, but they'll get
by.
And you can't do that in health.
You can't do that in theenvironment that you are talking
about.
So you are.
You know, I've always said topeople, look, if you are new to
(11:40):
leadership, let some things burnwhilst you figure out the other
things.
Then you can pick up these otherthings and you can let these
things burn, and eventuallyyou'll juggle everything.
You'll be all right.
But you are in a position whereyou can't let anything burn.
So I can imagine, first of all,that was quite stressful and
hard for you as well.
You know, when we talk aboutburnout and you know, you
mentioned that you were, youimagine what, 155 beds,$2
(12:03):
million budget.
It's a lot of responsibilitywhen you've had no real, and I
find this all the time, right?
Especially healthcare isterrible for throwing people in
the deep end and expecting themto swim.
How have you got any tips foranybody who's in that position,
in that sort of environment?
What's the thing that you wishyou'd known at the beginning?
Julie (12:23):
Yeah.
That is a great question.
And it's so very true, right?
We're you're a good accountant,so we're gonna just put you in
charge.
You're a good doctor, so we'regonna put you in charge.
Leadership skills require a d,they're a different set of
skills than whatever you weredoing before.
In fact, if anything, you aregonna be less doing less of that
(12:45):
that original work and more.
Interpersonal skills, strategicplanning, executive skills.
And so those skills don't assumeyou know them like you have to
learn them and practice thembecause even if you read a great
book on leadership.
Well, one isn't gonna get youthere.
You might need to read 50 or 60but even if you do the work, and
(13:07):
look, I have a doctorate inleadership.
You study it, you have to thengo out in the world and practice
it because it's different in thedifferent context within which
you work.
And so I think recognising thatyou are not alone, that's the
first thing.
And and getting help.
I mean, it's why I coach people,right?
(13:27):
And so a lot of times I know forme there was a point.
In my journey as a director ofnursing, where I really didn't
have like a coach or mentorthere, and I wanted more
support.
So of course, as a coach I justhired one for myself and I
didn't think anything of it.
(13:47):
I mean, it would've been nice ifthey had paid for it, but I
didn't care.
I knew that I wanted torepresent myself in a certain
way and that, people arewatching you, they're learning
from you as the, you know,especially when you have a
position or a title.
And so you get to decide who youwant to be, how you wanna show
up, and there are certain thingsthat you definitely need to know
(14:10):
as a leader.
And the first is, you know, thevision, where are you going?
And the second is the valuesthat you are aspiring to and
that you expect other people toaspire to.
And those values should bepretty similar to the
organization.
You wouldn't want them to be tooincongruent with what the
organization is doing, but theymay be a little different.
(14:31):
And and those need to becommunicated effectively to
others.
So.
There's a lot to know.
I did just put a course togetheron a comprehensive course on
leadership called Leading at theSpeed of People.
It's not out yet.
It should be out within the nextcouple weeks though.
And so if people are looking fora way to learn, that's not, you
(14:51):
know, if they don't wanna hire acoach or don't wanna do that
route, that is another way.
But find yourself some way to.
To work with or learn fromsomeone who's gone before
because you are not alone.
And you know, I work with.
People now, like, you know,doing performing leadership
development and it's one of theconsistent themes that I hear.
(15:13):
It doesn't really matter whatindustry you're in or what kind
of leader, you know what you'releading.
It's you're leading people.
I.
And this is kind of how I cameup with the title for my book.
You're not leading things.
So it doesn't matter if you'rein accounting or if you're in
healthcare, or if you're in youknow, tech, it's, you're still
(15:34):
leading people and that requiresyou to be able to confront
conflict, navigate that show upwith your executive presence in
a certain way because you're,you know that people are
watching you and your behaviorsets The tone for how people are
gonna be behave.
And so, and you need to learn tocommunicate effectively.
All those things go acrossindustries, and so I don't have
(15:56):
one particular thing that youneed to know, but just know that
you don't have to do it alone.
That, you know, there are plentyof ways to get yourself the
support that you need,especially if you're not getting
it.
In your place of employment.
And I think that's probably thekey is that sometimes we assume
somebody's gonna teach us right?
(16:17):
And take us by the hand.
And I've never had that.
I never had anybody take me bythe hand and teach me.
And so I know other people have,and they've had mentors, I just
haven't.
And and that's okay.
But.
dont let that stop you fromdoing what you need to do to
learn what you need to learn tobe the as effective as you can
be so you can bring out the bestin your teammates and and create
(16:40):
a very high performing team.
Because ultimately that's,there's a legacy there.
So it's not just what you do,it's what you leave behind when
you're gone
Paul (16:48):
It's your personal brand.
It's your personal brand.
And people don't realize thatthe personal brand proliferates
far beyond social media.
It's how people talk about youwhen you are not in the room,
and how people understand whatyou've asked them to do.
I love that answer.
Thank you, Judy.
I think there's there's a lot tounpick there for people.
I wonder, you know, you talkedabout your vision being
incongruent with that of thebusiness or the organization
(17:11):
itself.
And one of the things I, I oftencome across is the conflict of.
If I'm going to be a peopleleader, and I am a people
leader, I love leading peopleand I worry more about the
people than I do about mynumbers and my metrics and
you've gotta have an eye onboth.
But quite often I find thatsenior leadership are often more
bothered about the numbers andthe metrics and the profit and
the efficiency than they areabout the people.
(17:33):
And they assume that if we makethese things work over here, the
people will just be happy.
So, where somebody's kind of satin the middle of that and
they're wanting to make.
More of a case for the peopleand lead for the people.
How do you influence theleadership to kind of see the
benefits of that, where they'remore, you know, their focus is
rightly like to a certain extenton the business numbers.
(17:56):
How do you influence them?
Julie (18:33):
Movement from.
Systems to, efficiency andmetrics, and they all matter the
metrics and compliance andchecklists.
I mean, especially inhealthcare, right?
All of those things reallymatter, but, and we do need
structure and accountability tomake things work.
But what I saw again and againis that the processes don't work
(18:58):
without the people.
So when staff are exhausted ordisengaged or even feeling
unsupported, even the bestsystems will fail.
And you and of course they blamethe people, but it's the system
and the way the system works.
So I began making the case byshowing how people issues were
(19:21):
system issues.
For example, if communicationbreaks down, if morale is low or
if turnover's high, then thosearen't just HR problems, they're
leadership problems.
And they have a real operationalimpact and consequence,
including delays and errorspatient dissatisfaction.
(19:42):
And so when we invest in people,when we listen and train them
and support them and engagethem, everything improves
performance, complianceoutcomes.
And and that's the lesson inputting people first.
so, I think that you asked aspecific question,"what do
leaders do to influence leadersin focusing on the people"?
(20:07):
And I think what we do is westand up and we speak up.
I.
And we advocate, we become thevoice of the people by
interjecting that from whereverwe are leading, metrics and
numbers are important, but howdo we get those?
We get those through the people.
So I.
Through my work, I know that Iteach leaders how to build
(20:29):
trust.
'cause trust is essential andreduce friction.
We've spent a lot of timetalking about that.
Well, a lot of the time it comesdown to what are we doing to
cause people to have more stressand that productivity go down?
You, if you only look at thenumbers, then you're you're not
seeing how.
(20:50):
People are actually functioninghow is per, what is getting in
the way of, it's what I callfriction.
What is getting in the way ofpeople being able to just
perform their job?
And it might be training, itmight be, you know, ineffective
onboarding, for instance.
You know, it takes longer forpeople to figure it out.
Or if there's a lot of fear inthe workplace, then, you know,
(21:13):
if people are walking oneggshells, all that.
Effort and energy that goes intojust navigating how to behave
and what I can say when I mean,that's a lot of work.
And so your productivity isgonna go down and your
disengagement, you know, numberswill go up retention will go
down.
People will leave because your,you're reducing.
(21:37):
ability for people to justthrive at work they're just
surviving.
And so if we unlock thepossibilities and their
potential by creating safety atwork, by creating, being very
clear in our communication andour expectations by you know,
you mentioned before we startedtoday about just having fun at
(21:57):
work.
Being able to create a workenvironment that works where
people feel comfortable comingto work and being authentic and
having a good time and workingtogether, building that team and
community.
I mean, that's where you'regonna, people will get excited
about coming to work.
Then your numbers will come up.
So it's kind of, maybe it's abackwards way of looking at, or
(22:19):
it's just different from howother people look at it, because
if you're looking at the numbersand dictating, you're creating
that fear.
But if you help people to dotheir best work, then the
numbers are gonna go upnaturally.
They're gonna wanna besuccessful.
Paul (22:34):
I spent quite a lot of time in theft and fraud
prevention in retail.
So I looked a lot at internaltheft and fraud for the
business.
And I tell this story quite alot.
I used to go into stores to doan audit and I could turn up and
do any variety of audits.
There's all sorts of things thatI could check on.
And I was just kind of, thebusiness relied on me to go in
kind of spidey senses aretingling.
(22:54):
What do I think's going on inhere?
What's going on?
And quite often I first port ofcall that I'd just go to the
rota I'd got the planning rotathe staff rota and I'd look to
see how many rotas were up,first of all.
You know,'cause you go into astore and they've only got this
week's rota up or we've got somebigger problems about how you
lead your people.
'cause they need to have threeweeks up minimum.
(23:14):
Minimum, right.
But I'd go in and I'd look atthe rotas and I'd see the same
people working late shifts five,six days a week.
And when somebody phoned insick, if somebody would be
crossed out and then that personwould still be rotated in again,
it'd be another late shift.
And so they'd be working, youknow, six, seven days, some
weeks, couple of days off in themiddle, six, seven days.
And I'd quite, you know, thestore manager would come behind
(23:36):
me and be like, why are youlooking at my staff?
My staff are alright.
Nobody steals.
Nobody steals in here.
Like, oh, okay.
No, I didn't say they were, butthis person here, did they do
all of your sick calls?
Do they always come in when youneed them?
Yeah.
Or, but they, but she, butthey're solid.
You know, they've worked me for15 years.
They've been here since thebeginning.
Okay.
I guarantee you that's the oneI'm gonna look at first, and I
(23:57):
guarantee you that's where I'llfind it.
Why?
Why would they do it?
Well, because you're nottreating them right.
They're, you're treating themhow they want to be treat but
it's not the way they need to betreat They might be asking you
for more shifts.
They might say that they'rehappy working lots and late
shifts, and they might be quitehappy when you ask them to come
in and cover sickness.
But actually inside, they're abit disgruntled.
(24:17):
They get a bit annoyed over timeand they feel as though they're
all a bit more than what youraverage I.
Other employee earns, you know,start to feel a little bit
entitled.
I should get more because Ialways come in and cover sick.
I always do the horrible shifts.
I'm always here mopping upeverybody else's mess.
And it starts with little thingsand it becomes bigger things.
Then eventually, if nobodycatches, it becomes big, obvious
(24:38):
things.
And I guarantee, you know, ninetimes outta 10, that was the
person.
That was the person that was.
And it was a tough job to dobecause I knew that person
hadn't done anything wrong,really, that they'd gone down a
wrong path.
But they've been treat wrong inthe first place and it was hard
to do anything about thatbecause you know what?
I probably do the same in theirsituation as well.
(24:59):
Most reasonable people probablywould.
You might not go to that extentof stealing, but you'd stop to
feel entitled and you'd feel asthough you would do something
more.
So I think, you know, there's alot of that in any environment.
You know, you've got to look atwhere are you using up the
goodwill of your people.
There is only so much goodwillin the bank, and eventually you
will break the people.
Moving on from that a little bitthen obviously you've got a book
(25:20):
leading at the Speed of People,and I love that title.
It's phenomenal.
Why did you decide to write thatbook and how do you deal with
people who still see things likeemotional intelligence as the
soft stuff that.
It's all fluffy hr, right?
And we don't really need thatstuff.
Julie (25:36):
Yeah.
Well, the book was born fromyears of watching people who
had, you know, the bestintentions but didn't have all
the skills of what it took toreally lead effectively.
also having some really badineffective leaders that I, you
know, came across.
And I do tell some stories inthe book about those as well.
(26:01):
And so, so that.
That's, I wrote the book, Imean, this was my third book
actually.
So this was, I, you know, and Ihave some other books that I
wanna write.
So I am multiple author, butthis book in particular, I
really am very proud of andexcited about because it really
does, you know, teach people howto.
(26:21):
Lead effectively and be peoplecentered in their approach.
you know, what brought this homefor me was working in behavioral
health where, you know,emotional intensity is part of
the job.
And I, you know, as I mentioned,I saw firsthand how leaders'
presence, how they showed up,how they listened, how they
handled conflict or managedtheir own stress, had ripple
(26:44):
effects on the entire team andhow that impacted how.
employees, treated patients, youknow, of course in, in my area.
So I wrote the book because Isaw the cost of not leading at
the speed of people, which, youknow, creates burnout, turnover,
disengagement, and I wanted togive leaders a more human
(27:06):
centered roadmap, one that showsus how to slow down.
I mean, that's the big thing isthat.
When you're dealing with people,you can do tasks at 150 miles an
hour and do this and do that andshift from one thing to another,
and, but you can't do peoplethat way.
I.
We have to slow down enough toreally be thoughtful and connect
(27:26):
with them.
And so when you mentioned aboutemotional intelligence and being
soft stuff, so to speak I remindpeople that it's the soft stuff.
If you wanna call it that makesthe hard stuff work.
You can have the best strategy,the smartest team and all the
(27:46):
data, but if people don't trustyou, if you can't navigate
conflict and you just allow itto run rampant, I.
Or if your team is full of fear,as we've mentioned, and walking
on eggshells around you.
Nothing works the way it should.
I don't try to sell emotionalintelligence as a nice to have.
(28:06):
I show how it directly impactsresults.
Engagement, productivity,retention, turnover.
I mean, the bottom line, right?
Because we also, you know, youcan look statistics on the.
Billions of dollars thatcompanies spend on absenteeism
and you know, retentionstrategies and when somebody
leaves and how much money thatcosts.
(28:27):
And that just creates just suchan up level.
It, you know, just up uproarwithin the department.
The landscape changes.
So honestly, once leadersexperience what emotional
intelligence can do for you,like self-awareness and empathy,
once they shift their tone ofvoice and they listen
differently, or they respond tosomeone with more clarity and
(28:52):
calm then and they see howothers respond and the impact
that they have, then that's whenthey stop seeing it as soft.
They see it as essential.
So let's share a story.
A recent, A client recently wasstruggling with two managers not
getting along.
She was a C-suite.
And so, she mentioned like they,she has to talk to them about
(29:12):
their communication and shewanted some strategies for
dealing with that.
And I mentioned empathy.
She's like, no, it's not empathyit's communicating.
So we talked about it andeventually she, you know, we
talked about what does empathymean?
Well help this manager see theworld.
From this manager's eyes andhelp this manager see the world
(29:33):
from this manager's eyes.
And she finally got it becauseonce they understood what they
have to deal with and theinformation that they need to be
able to dis you know, disdisseminate to their teams or to
their vendors or whatever wasgoing on for them, then they
would communicate moreeffectively.
And it was like.
(29:53):
Light bulbs went off.
And so sometimes we look forthose hard skills, but they're
really, it's the, it'sunderstanding what people and
how they function.
People are messy.
We're messy, and and we need to,leaders need to better
understand how to navigatepeople.
And you would think by now wewould know how to do this
(30:14):
better, but we just, I don'tknow why we look outside
ourselves rather than insideourselves.
And in the book I talk about.
as individuals.
We are the self-study course.
We have a front row seat to whatit means to be human, and the
more we observe ourselves andabsorb ob, observe how we feel
when X happens or the traumathat we've experienced, and no,
(30:38):
nobody else's Path is just likeours, but guarantee everybody's
been through trauma.
There are.
One in six people who aresuffering from addiction.
Well, somebody knows somebodythat's suffering from addiction
or who had an overdose.
So it's like if we can just bemore mindful and then of course
the statistics on mentalillness.
And just, you know what peopleare struggling with depression,
(30:59):
anxiety, that just people are onmeds.
Totally.
Okay.
No judgment there, but let'sjust be mindful that people are
dealing with more than just thenumbers and the spreadsheet.
They're dealing with all thisother stuff, sick parents, kids,
whatever is going financialissues.
So when we can learn to be alittle bit more compassionate
and understanding, which againrequires us to just slow down
(31:21):
just a little bit so that we canconnect with people.
It just makes all the differencein the world.
Paul (31:28):
I prefer to refer to, what's traditionally termed soft
skills as core skills They'reessential.
They're the building blocks thatyou should build your leadership
on, but they're very rarely thebits that we teach because to
your point, it requires us tolook within.
It's the hard work.
You've gotta do the hard work.
It's easy to blame other people,but we can blame other people
very easily, but we can't lookwithin ourselves easily or match
(31:52):
up how we think with otherseasily.
But I think the key is.
Plenty of people start off as aprocess oriented leader and
think about, worry about thenumbers and efficiency and learn
later on that they can lead withpeople.
And it's a much nicer way ofdoing things.
It's a much easier way of doingthings once you've got it.
But never, nobody ever goes theother way.
Nobody ever starts off as apeople centered leader and
(32:13):
becomes an ROI and KPI drivenleader and forgets all about the
people.
And the reason for that isbecause once you've done it.
You realise how much of adifference it makes and how much
more pleasant everything is.
Why would you ever go back?
So I love your take on that,Judy.
I think it's, I think it'sinspirational and I think
there's so much that otherpeople can learn from all of
(32:35):
that.
What's, I mean, we kind of, I'dlove, I just, I always seem to
have guests on.
I just wanna go on for hours andhours.
I could just ask so manyquestions and so many things I
could share with the audience.
What's be before we wrap theshow up and we, when we close
things down, first of all, I'mgonna make sure that all of your
contact details are in the shownotes and everything so people
can reach out.
If curious to learn more aboutyour coaching, your course, your
(32:57):
books, that will all be inthere.
What's one outdated leadershipmindset or business culture
habit that you wish, you know,more leaders could just leave
behind them when they'restarting out?
Julie (33:08):
Yeah, there's more than one, but I think what I would
say that you have to have allthe answers.
That outdated model creates somuch pressure and that
unnecessary pressure.
And again, if we're aboutreducing stress, reducing
friction, you know, anythingthat gets in the way, then that
would be one of'em.
You don't have to have the allthe answers.
(33:29):
It's silences teams.
People are looking up to you tohave, there's something special
about, you know, being the onethat everybody looks to, but at
the end of the day, it doesn'tmatter where the ideas come from
and you have a team around you.
So use them.
Leadership isn't about control.
It's about creating space forothers to contribute, grow, and
(33:49):
take ownership.
And I thought about this inpreparation for today.
And you know, I, it is a risk towalk in and not have any of the
answers.
I remember my first year as thedirector of nursing, I asked a
lot of questions.
Probably the first, I don'tknow, the first few months for
sure, and then over time, butwhat it did was I.
(34:11):
Really presented myself as, Idon't know.
Because I didn't know how theydid things.
I knew how to do things, but Ididn't know how they did things.
And there was a little bit of arisk'cause they're like, oh, she
doesn't know anything.
No, I don't.
I don't know how you do things.
And yet over time they came tounderstand why I did that and
that I wasn't coming in withtheir answers for them.
(34:33):
Had to hear from them first.
And so, you know, people don'twanna be micromanaged.
They wanna be trusted,respected, and heard.
And leaders who still operatefrom that top down, you know,
command and control style, aremissing the opportunity to
really unlock the full potentialof their team and to.
(34:54):
come together with their teamsto create something that we all
want.
So that there, it's not justabout you, like we mentioned the
word vision earlier.
If the vision has to besomething that's everybody's
enrolled in and we can createthat together, but you can't
create it without listening toyour team and having, if you
have the answer, then you'rejust telling them what.
(35:14):
Where they're going rather thanenlisting them and asking them
questions about where they wannasee it go.
And so leadership isn't aboutbeing right, it's about getting
it right, but together.
You don't need to be thesmartest person in the room,
just the one that brings out thebest in others so that you get
the most from them.
Paul (35:33):
Just the one that asks the right questions.
Right?
I love it.
Julie (35:36):
Yeah.
Paul (35:36):
Thank you very much for being a fabulous guest here and
Judy, we'll have to have youback on'cause I like, I could
probably ask you another threehours worth of questions.
It's been awesome.
Thank you very much for spendingthe time with us.
Julie (35:46):
it.
Thank you so much, Paul.
This has been a pleasure.
Paul (35:49):
Awesome.
And thank you at home forwatching the show subscribe,
make sure you've given us afollow and if you'd be so kind
as to drop us a rating onSpotify or Apple, that would be
amazing as well.
Thank you very much and I'll seeyou next week on MarketPulse
Pros and Pioneers.
Stressed out teams, high turnover and poor leadership.
This episode explores howself-awareness and emotional
intelligence are quite often themissing links between burnout
and real business growth.
Dr.
Julie Donley is a leadershipcoach, an award-winning author
and former director of nursing.
(00:23):
With over three decades ofexperience transforming high
pressure workplaces into peoplecentered environments.
Julie has a background thatspans behavioral health,
organizational development, andfrontline healthcare.
She knows what burnout,disengagement, and poor
leadership look like from theinside, and she's led teams
through crises built systemsthat stick and championed
(00:46):
emotional intelligence insectors that traditionally
overlook it.
Now through her company and herbook, leading at the Speed of
People, she helps executives,teams, and businesses lead with
empathy, reduce stress, andcreate real engagement without
compromising performance.
(01:06):
Julie, welcome to the episode.
Thank you for joining us.
Julie (01:10):
Thank you so much, Paul, for having me.
I am excited to be here.
Paul (01:14):
I have to say, I think I you are the second doctor that
we've had on the show.
So, set, setting, setting a highbar for the rest of our guests.
We had Dr.
Erin Burgoon on three or fourmonths ago now and fascinating
conversation.
I love fascinating backgrounds,and your story is no different
from a lot of our other guestsin that you've started in an
area where few would connect youto where you are now.
(01:36):
Why did you get into nursing inthe first place?
Why, what attracted you to it?
Julie (01:41):
Well to nursing, Huh.
I had no idea what I was gonnado when I grew up, and it took
me forever to find that path toget my first degree, which was
in business actually.
But I was really drawn topeople.
And so, and I loved helpingpeople to be their best, to
(02:03):
heal, to grow, and that's whatled me into nursing.
And I.
into psychiatric nursingspecifically because I wanted
to, as I said, help people to betheir best.
And that was sort of where,where I could see me doing the
most good.
Paul (02:20):
Why psychiatric nursing?
Then what?
What sparked you there?
Julie (02:23):
Yeah.
It's interesting.
I just wanted to help people.
I had a really rough.
Time coming out of childhood.
And so, like, my parentsdivorced when I was 16, which is
a horrible time.
I mean, there's never a greattime.
But at 16 everybody left.
So my dad left, my motherchecked out, my sister moved out
'cause she couldn't bear to beleft there either.
(02:46):
And so I like all of a suddenfind myself on my own and really
had no support.
I don't know.
You know, it took me so long toget that first degree and then I
decided on nursing and a friendsaid to me, Hey there's this new
adolescent unit opening at thislocal psychiatric facility.
Why don't you check that out?
(03:07):
So I, I.
You know, I was in my twentiesstill, and I figured, well, why
not?
And I kind of stumbled my waythere, but I was excited about
it.
And I had not entered nursingschool yet.
So I started this job on thispsychiatric unit before I
actually, you know, had evengotten into nursing.
So I was on a waiting list.
So I had to wait a year.
(03:28):
And two things happened.
And the first was that Iabsolutely loved it.
I definitely found a greatplace, a home for me in psych,
and I loved working with thekids.
And so that was the first thing.
And the second thing thathappened was the leadership was
really bad.
so the work environment, now youhave to remember that in a
(03:51):
psychiatric center, it's very.
It's dangerous and you have tobe very careful about how you
display yourself, your emotionalexpressions, everything.
It's emotional.
It's called emotional laborbecause it really is laborious
as to what, how you controlyourself, but also how you know,
(04:12):
understand what others are goingthrough and paying attention to
those cues, those signs, thatdanger may be coming, that kind
of thing.
so when you have a leader thatadds.
To the danger because of herbody language and her lack of
ability to communicate andconnect.
I mean, she was really bad.
She was everything that youcould imagine.
(04:34):
She stirred up chaos and sheplayed favorites and she was
just inappropriate with the menand versus the women.
I mean, it was like everythingthat could go wrong went wrong
with her.
And.
Of course I was still very youngand I'm like watching this
going, what?
Like, don't people understandthat she's causing a lot of
(04:55):
these problems?
And I don't know if theyrealised that or if they just
sort of assumed it wasadolescents, you know, because
nobody wanted to work therebecause of the kids.
But it wasn't just the kids.
She would bark orders at people.
She didn't treat people nice.
And so, and that.
Spurred my interest intoleadership and understanding how
(05:17):
the impact of what a leader doesand how they show up really can
make or break the team and cancreate work environments that
either work really well or don'twork at all.
And that's was my firstexperience, very young in, in
poor leadership.
Paul (05:36):
I think it's interesting that so many people learn just
as many lessons from a poorleadership experience as a good
leadership, possibly more froma, than from a good leadership
experience.
Because when a good leader isthere, kind of everything, just
kind of flows But when there's abad leadership experience, you
start to pick apart the why.
Or if you are, leadershipminded, as I call it.
(05:57):
Like you, you're aware of howleadership works at some base
level, at a people level.
You start to see the linksbetween the behaviors and the
actions and the outcomes and howpeople react to that.
So I think it's interesting.
I guess that desire to put yourown stamp on things is why you
ended up becoming a director ofnursing then?
Julie (06:14):
Yeah and why I got my doctorate in leadership, right?
So I went on to study leadershipto pay.
You know, I was very curious asto, I.
How she could get away with it.
Honestly, that was part of it.
And also, you know, what makesfor a good leader then?
Because that wasn't it.
And so yeah, that really fueledme to study practice get
(06:36):
involved.
And that's what, and yes, I gotto, well, I, I stumbled into
coaching in the coachingprofession in 2001, and loved
that was like a great place forme to continue to play, but with
different, I.
People who were functioning wellin the world, you know, you're
(06:56):
in psych, people are notfunctioning.
That's why they go into ahospital.
So with coaching, you know,that's not where we're playing.
We're playing with people whoare doing great things and they
wanna be even more effective.
So it was sort of a natural, anatural thing for me to move
into.
And and yes, I actually steppedout of coaching to go back into
full-time employment to takethat director position.
(07:19):
I hadn't really left nursing.
I had been just, they call itPRN, where you just sort of take
a shift here and there and Iloved it.
So, you know, I loved playing inthat way and working in that
field.
But thenI was approached byaorganisationon to be their
director and I thought, youknow, what a great opportunity.
And so I dove in and it was agreat opportunity for me.
(07:40):
I was like the right person inthe right place at the right
time, and I knew what needed tobe done.
But boy did I have a badexperience in the beginning
because again, I was ploppedinto this role There was nobody
there to support me.
I mean, it literally was handeda set of keys and basically
said, okay, have at it.
And I'm like, what?
Like, I have three sites.
(08:02):
Can you gimme the addresses ofthe other two sites?
Like that's how bad it was.
And the woman who I wasreplacing, she she hired me very
quickly, like within two weeks Iwas hired and, which is unusual
at that level.
And then she left two monthslater.
So, I.
I, I was really glad that shedid because we would not have
(08:24):
gotten along very well asleaders.
Her leadership style was verychaotic and, and so, but that
first year it, again, it wasjust, it was really a trial for
me.
You know, I knew what needed tobe done.
I just needed to figureeverything out, how to.
Who did, who?
Who did I need to know?
(08:46):
How did I need to navigate itall?
I mean, it was a big job
Paul (08:49):
Yeah.
Julie (08:50):
And I just didn't want anyone else to have to do that.
Have that experience where youdon't really have support from
your upper leadership.
And so I kind of made it mymission not only to do it then,
but as I got through the years,like I didn't want anyone to
have to be orienting themselves,you know, to a job.
(09:11):
And so I sort of made it mymission to make sure what I
could in that role to make surethat the nurses had what they
needed.
To be able to excel in theirroles.
And now as I've left that careerand back into full-time coaching
I have that same mission where Iwant people to feel like they
(09:32):
have the support they need tobe.
Great to thrive in their roles.
And that has always driven meinto whatever I've been doing,
whether it's in, you know,psych.
And I think as a director ofnursing, I was able to control a
lot of that because I was, youknow, I was in charge.
So I was able to make sure thatwe were supporting the staff in
(09:53):
whatever way we could to ensurethat they had what they needed
to be successful.
And it was.
It was great.
I remember one day visiting anurse at one of the nurse.
We had like seven nursingstations, and so one of the
nurses, she had been onvacation.
She was the main nurse for oneof the nursing stations, and she
came back from vacation.
So I visited her I rememberasking her, she told me about
(10:13):
her vacation and she was offwith her friends and she said,
you know, but I was thrilled tocome back to work.
I was ready.
I love it here.
I was happy to come in onMonday.
I don't know what my face lookedlike, but inside I was just
like, oh my God, thank God.
You know?
Yes.
I mean, when your staff tellsyou that they're looking forward
to Mondays, that's, it justtells you're doing something
(10:35):
right, because we know thatstress the most stressful day of
the week, well, do you know whatthe most stressful day of the
week is?
Paul (10:43):
If you start work on a Monday morning, it's a Sunday
afternoon.
Julie (10:46):
Exactly.
It's Sunday afternoon, Sundayevenings, people get really
stressed out'cause they'reanxious about their next day.
And so to have her say that tome, I still like it, still gives
me chills.
I was pretty happy about that.
Paul (10:59):
I know that because I've lived that.
Right.
I've lived that like, like somany people do.
It's, I find it interesting thatyou learn that leadership skill
almost yourself.
Right, like you are trialing andtesting things.
You are navigating by the seatof your pants in an environment
that is, you can't allow thingsto fall over.
So now I learned in retail,right?
And now retail.
(11:20):
Yes, there are some things youcan't allow to fall over.
There are certain things thatshould never, ever be not right.
But there are lots of otherthings that you can let go for a
little while and they'll maybenot be great, but they'll get
by.
And you can't do that in health.
You can't do that in theenvironment that you are talking
about.
So you are.
You know, I've always said topeople, look, if you are new to
(11:40):
leadership, let some things burnwhilst you figure out the other
things.
Then you can pick up these otherthings and you can let these
things burn, and eventuallyyou'll juggle everything.
You'll be all right.
But you are in a position whereyou can't let anything burn.
So I can imagine, first of all,that was quite stressful and
hard for you as well.
You know, when we talk aboutburnout and you know, you
mentioned that you were, youimagine what, 155 beds,$2
(12:03):
million budget.
It's a lot of responsibilitywhen you've had no real, and I
find this all the time, right?
Especially healthcare isterrible for throwing people in
the deep end and expecting themto swim.
How have you got any tips foranybody who's in that position,
in that sort of environment?
What's the thing that you wishyou'd known at the beginning?
Julie (12:23):
Yeah.
That is a great question.
And it's so very true, right?
We're you're a good accountant,so we're gonna just put you in
charge.
You're a good doctor, so we'regonna put you in charge.
Leadership skills require a d,they're a different set of
skills than whatever you weredoing before.
In fact, if anything, you aregonna be less doing less of that
(12:45):
that original work and more.
Interpersonal skills, strategicplanning, executive skills.
And so those skills don't assumeyou know them like you have to
learn them and practice thembecause even if you read a great
book on leadership.
Well, one isn't gonna get youthere.
You might need to read 50 or 60but even if you do the work, and
(13:07):
look, I have a doctorate inleadership.
You study it, you have to thengo out in the world and practice
it because it's different in thedifferent context within which
you work.
And so I think recognising thatyou are not alone, that's the
first thing.
And and getting help.
I mean, it's why I coach people,right?
(13:27):
And so a lot of times I know forme there was a point.
In my journey as a director ofnursing, where I really didn't
have like a coach or mentorthere, and I wanted more
support.
So of course, as a coach I justhired one for myself and I
didn't think anything of it.
(13:47):
I mean, it would've been nice ifthey had paid for it, but I
didn't care.
I knew that I wanted torepresent myself in a certain
way and that, people arewatching you, they're learning
from you as the, you know,especially when you have a
position or a title.
And so you get to decide who youwant to be, how you wanna show
up, and there are certain thingsthat you definitely need to know
(14:10):
as a leader.
And the first is, you know, thevision, where are you going?
And the second is the valuesthat you are aspiring to and
that you expect other people toaspire to.
And those values should bepretty similar to the
organization.
You wouldn't want them to be tooincongruent with what the
organization is doing, but theymay be a little different.
(14:31):
And and those need to becommunicated effectively to
others.
So.
There's a lot to know.
I did just put a course togetheron a comprehensive course on
leadership called Leading at theSpeed of People.
It's not out yet.
It should be out within the nextcouple weeks though.
And so if people are looking fora way to learn, that's not, you
(14:51):
know, if they don't wanna hire acoach or don't wanna do that
route, that is another way.
But find yourself some way to.
To work with or learn fromsomeone who's gone before
because you are not alone.
And you know, I work with.
People now, like, you know,doing performing leadership
development and it's one of theconsistent themes that I hear.
(15:13):
It doesn't really matter whatindustry you're in or what kind
of leader, you know what you'releading.
It's you're leading people.
I.
And this is kind of how I cameup with the title for my book.
You're not leading things.
So it doesn't matter if you'rein accounting or if you're in
healthcare, or if you're in youknow, tech, it's, you're still
(15:34):
leading people and that requiresyou to be able to confront
conflict, navigate that show upwith your executive presence in
a certain way because you're,you know that people are
watching you and your behaviorsets The tone for how people are
gonna be behave.
And so, and you need to learn tocommunicate effectively.
All those things go acrossindustries, and so I don't have
(15:56):
one particular thing that youneed to know, but just know that
you don't have to do it alone.
That, you know, there are plentyof ways to get yourself the
support that you need,especially if you're not getting
it.
In your place of employment.
And I think that's probably thekey is that sometimes we assume
somebody's gonna teach us right?
(16:17):
And take us by the hand.
And I've never had that.
I never had anybody take me bythe hand and teach me.
And so I know other people have,and they've had mentors, I just
haven't.
And and that's okay.
But.
dont let that stop you fromdoing what you need to do to
learn what you need to learn tobe the as effective as you can
be so you can bring out the bestin your teammates and and create
(16:40):
a very high performing team.
Because ultimately that's,there's a legacy there.
So it's not just what you do,it's what you leave behind when
you're gone
Paul (16:48):
It's your personal brand.
It's your personal brand.
And people don't realize thatthe personal brand proliferates
far beyond social media.
It's how people talk about youwhen you are not in the room,
and how people understand whatyou've asked them to do.
I love that answer.
Thank you, Judy.
I think there's there's a lot tounpick there for people.
I wonder, you know, you talkedabout your vision being
incongruent with that of thebusiness or the organization
(17:11):
itself.
And one of the things I, I oftencome across is the conflict of.
If I'm going to be a peopleleader, and I am a people
leader, I love leading peopleand I worry more about the
people than I do about mynumbers and my metrics and
you've gotta have an eye onboth.
But quite often I find thatsenior leadership are often more
bothered about the numbers andthe metrics and the profit and
the efficiency than they areabout the people.
(17:33):
And they assume that if we makethese things work over here, the
people will just be happy.
So, where somebody's kind of satin the middle of that and
they're wanting to make.
More of a case for the peopleand lead for the people.
How do you influence theleadership to kind of see the
benefits of that, where they'remore, you know, their focus is
rightly like to a certain extenton the business numbers.
(17:56):
How do you influence them?
Julie (18:33):
Movement from.
Systems to, efficiency andmetrics, and they all matter the
metrics and compliance andchecklists.
I mean, especially inhealthcare, right?
All of those things reallymatter, but, and we do need
structure and accountability tomake things work.
But what I saw again and againis that the processes don't work
(18:58):
without the people.
So when staff are exhausted ordisengaged or even feeling
unsupported, even the bestsystems will fail.
And you and of course they blamethe people, but it's the system
and the way the system works.
So I began making the case byshowing how people issues were
(19:21):
system issues.
For example, if communicationbreaks down, if morale is low or
if turnover's high, then thosearen't just HR problems, they're
leadership problems.
And they have a real operationalimpact and consequence,
including delays and errorspatient dissatisfaction.
(19:42):
And so when we invest in people,when we listen and train them
and support them and engagethem, everything improves
performance, complianceoutcomes.
And and that's the lesson inputting people first.
so, I think that you asked aspecific question,"what do
leaders do to influence leadersin focusing on the people"?
(20:07):
And I think what we do is westand up and we speak up.
I.
And we advocate, we become thevoice of the people by
interjecting that from whereverwe are leading, metrics and
numbers are important, but howdo we get those?
We get those through the people.
So I.
Through my work, I know that Iteach leaders how to build
(20:29):
trust.
'cause trust is essential andreduce friction.
We've spent a lot of timetalking about that.
Well, a lot of the time it comesdown to what are we doing to
cause people to have more stressand that productivity go down?
You, if you only look at thenumbers, then you're you're not
seeing how.
(20:50):
People are actually functioninghow is per, what is getting in
the way of, it's what I callfriction.
What is getting in the way ofpeople being able to just
perform their job?
And it might be training, itmight be, you know, ineffective
onboarding, for instance.
You know, it takes longer forpeople to figure it out.
Or if there's a lot of fear inthe workplace, then, you know,
(21:13):
if people are walking oneggshells, all that.
Effort and energy that goes intojust navigating how to behave
and what I can say when I mean,that's a lot of work.
And so your productivity isgonna go down and your
disengagement, you know, numberswill go up retention will go
down.
People will leave because your,you're reducing.
(21:37):
ability for people to justthrive at work they're just
surviving.
And so if we unlock thepossibilities and their
potential by creating safety atwork, by creating, being very
clear in our communication andour expectations by you know,
you mentioned before we startedtoday about just having fun at
(21:57):
work.
Being able to create a workenvironment that works where
people feel comfortable comingto work and being authentic and
having a good time and workingtogether, building that team and
community.
I mean, that's where you'regonna, people will get excited
about coming to work.
Then your numbers will come up.
So it's kind of, maybe it's abackwards way of looking at, or
(22:19):
it's just different from howother people look at it, because
if you're looking at the numbersand dictating, you're creating
that fear.
But if you help people to dotheir best work, then the
numbers are gonna go upnaturally.
They're gonna wanna besuccessful.
Paul (22:34):
I spent quite a lot of time in theft and fraud
prevention in retail.
So I looked a lot at internaltheft and fraud for the
business.
And I tell this story quite alot.
I used to go into stores to doan audit and I could turn up and
do any variety of audits.
There's all sorts of things thatI could check on.
And I was just kind of, thebusiness relied on me to go in
kind of spidey senses aretingling.
(22:54):
What do I think's going on inhere?
What's going on?
And quite often I first port ofcall that I'd just go to the
rota I'd got the planning rotathe staff rota and I'd look to
see how many rotas were up,first of all.
You know,'cause you go into astore and they've only got this
week's rota up or we've got somebigger problems about how you
lead your people.
'cause they need to have threeweeks up minimum.
(23:14):
Minimum, right.
But I'd go in and I'd look atthe rotas and I'd see the same
people working late shifts five,six days a week.
And when somebody phoned insick, if somebody would be
crossed out and then that personwould still be rotated in again,
it'd be another late shift.
And so they'd be working, youknow, six, seven days, some
weeks, couple of days off in themiddle, six, seven days.
And I'd quite, you know, thestore manager would come behind
(23:36):
me and be like, why are youlooking at my staff?
My staff are alright.
Nobody steals.
Nobody steals in here.
Like, oh, okay.
No, I didn't say they were, butthis person here, did they do
all of your sick calls?
Do they always come in when youneed them?
Yeah.
Or, but they, but she, butthey're solid.
You know, they've worked me for15 years.
They've been here since thebeginning.
Okay.
I guarantee you that's the oneI'm gonna look at first, and I
(23:57):
guarantee you that's where I'llfind it.
Why?
Why would they do it?
Well, because you're nottreating them right.
They're, you're treating themhow they want to be treat but
it's not the way they need to betreat They might be asking you
for more shifts.
They might say that they'rehappy working lots and late
shifts, and they might be quitehappy when you ask them to come
in and cover sickness.
But actually inside, they're abit disgruntled.
(24:17):
They get a bit annoyed over timeand they feel as though they're
all a bit more than what youraverage I.
Other employee earns, you know,start to feel a little bit
entitled.
I should get more because Ialways come in and cover sick.
I always do the horrible shifts.
I'm always here mopping upeverybody else's mess.
And it starts with little thingsand it becomes bigger things.
Then eventually, if nobodycatches, it becomes big, obvious
(24:38):
things.
And I guarantee, you know, ninetimes outta 10, that was the
person.
That was the person that was.
And it was a tough job to dobecause I knew that person
hadn't done anything wrong,really, that they'd gone down a
wrong path.
But they've been treat wrong inthe first place and it was hard
to do anything about thatbecause you know what?
I probably do the same in theirsituation as well.
(24:59):
Most reasonable people probablywould.
You might not go to that extentof stealing, but you'd stop to
feel entitled and you'd feel asthough you would do something
more.
So I think, you know, there's alot of that in any environment.
You know, you've got to look atwhere are you using up the
goodwill of your people.
There is only so much goodwillin the bank, and eventually you
will break the people.
Moving on from that a little bitthen obviously you've got a book
(25:20):
leading at the Speed of People,and I love that title.
It's phenomenal.
Why did you decide to write thatbook and how do you deal with
people who still see things likeemotional intelligence as the
soft stuff that.
It's all fluffy hr, right?
And we don't really need thatstuff.
Julie (25:36):
Yeah.
Well, the book was born fromyears of watching people who
had, you know, the bestintentions but didn't have all
the skills of what it took toreally lead effectively.
also having some really badineffective leaders that I, you
know, came across.
And I do tell some stories inthe book about those as well.
(26:01):
And so, so that.
That's, I wrote the book, Imean, this was my third book
actually.
So this was, I, you know, and Ihave some other books that I
wanna write.
So I am multiple author, butthis book in particular, I
really am very proud of andexcited about because it really
does, you know, teach people howto.
(26:21):
Lead effectively and be peoplecentered in their approach.
you know, what brought this homefor me was working in behavioral
health where, you know,emotional intensity is part of
the job.
And I, you know, as I mentioned,I saw firsthand how leaders'
presence, how they showed up,how they listened, how they
handled conflict or managedtheir own stress, had ripple
(26:44):
effects on the entire team andhow that impacted how.
employees, treated patients, youknow, of course in, in my area.
So I wrote the book because Isaw the cost of not leading at
the speed of people, which, youknow, creates burnout, turnover,
disengagement, and I wanted togive leaders a more human
(27:06):
centered roadmap, one that showsus how to slow down.
I mean, that's the big thing isthat.
When you're dealing with people,you can do tasks at 150 miles an
hour and do this and do that andshift from one thing to another,
and, but you can't do peoplethat way.
I.
We have to slow down enough toreally be thoughtful and connect
(27:26):
with them.
And so when you mentioned aboutemotional intelligence and being
soft stuff, so to speak I remindpeople that it's the soft stuff.
If you wanna call it that makesthe hard stuff work.
You can have the best strategy,the smartest team and all the
(27:46):
data, but if people don't trustyou, if you can't navigate
conflict and you just allow itto run rampant, I.
Or if your team is full of fear,as we've mentioned, and walking
on eggshells around you.
Nothing works the way it should.
I don't try to sell emotionalintelligence as a nice to have.
(28:06):
I show how it directly impactsresults.
Engagement, productivity,retention, turnover.
I mean, the bottom line, right?
Because we also, you know, youcan look statistics on the.
Billions of dollars thatcompanies spend on absenteeism
and you know, retentionstrategies and when somebody
leaves and how much money thatcosts.
(28:27):
And that just creates just suchan up level.
It, you know, just up uproarwithin the department.
The landscape changes.
So honestly, once leadersexperience what emotional
intelligence can do for you,like self-awareness and empathy,
once they shift their tone ofvoice and they listen
differently, or they respond tosomeone with more clarity and
(28:52):
calm then and they see howothers respond and the impact
that they have, then that's whenthey stop seeing it as soft.
They see it as essential.
So let's share a story.
A recent, A client recently wasstruggling with two managers not
getting along.
She was a C-suite.
And so, she mentioned like they,she has to talk to them about
(29:12):
their communication and shewanted some strategies for
dealing with that.
And I mentioned empathy.
She's like, no, it's not empathyit's communicating.
So we talked about it andeventually she, you know, we
talked about what does empathymean?
Well help this manager see theworld.
From this manager's eyes andhelp this manager see the world
(29:33):
from this manager's eyes.
And she finally got it becauseonce they understood what they
have to deal with and theinformation that they need to be
able to dis you know, disdisseminate to their teams or to
their vendors or whatever wasgoing on for them, then they
would communicate moreeffectively.
And it was like.
(29:53):
Light bulbs went off.
And so sometimes we look forthose hard skills, but they're
really, it's the, it'sunderstanding what people and
how they function.
People are messy.
We're messy, and and we need to,leaders need to better
understand how to navigatepeople.
And you would think by now wewould know how to do this
(30:14):
better, but we just, I don'tknow why we look outside
ourselves rather than insideourselves.
And in the book I talk about.
as individuals.
We are the self-study course.
We have a front row seat to whatit means to be human, and the
more we observe ourselves andabsorb ob, observe how we feel
when X happens or the traumathat we've experienced, and no,
(30:38):
nobody else's Path is just likeours, but guarantee everybody's
been through trauma.
There are.
One in six people who aresuffering from addiction.
Well, somebody knows somebodythat's suffering from addiction
or who had an overdose.
So it's like if we can just bemore mindful and then of course
the statistics on mentalillness.
And just, you know what peopleare struggling with depression,
(30:59):
anxiety, that just people are onmeds.
Totally.
Okay.
No judgment there, but let'sjust be mindful that people are
dealing with more than just thenumbers and the spreadsheet.
They're dealing with all thisother stuff, sick parents, kids,
whatever is going financialissues.
So when we can learn to be alittle bit more compassionate
and understanding, which againrequires us to just slow down
(31:21):
just a little bit so that we canconnect with people.
It just makes all the differencein the world.
Paul (31:28):
I prefer to refer to, what's traditionally termed soft
skills as core skills They'reessential.
They're the building blocks thatyou should build your leadership
on, but they're very rarely thebits that we teach because to
your point, it requires us tolook within.
It's the hard work.
You've gotta do the hard work.
It's easy to blame other people,but we can blame other people
very easily, but we can't lookwithin ourselves easily or match
(31:52):
up how we think with otherseasily.
But I think the key is.
Plenty of people start off as aprocess oriented leader and
think about, worry about thenumbers and efficiency and learn
later on that they can lead withpeople.
And it's a much nicer way ofdoing things.
It's a much easier way of doingthings once you've got it.
But never, nobody ever goes theother way.
Nobody ever starts off as apeople centered leader and
(32:13):
becomes an ROI and KPI drivenleader and forgets all about the
people.
And the reason for that isbecause once you've done it.
You realise how much of adifference it makes and how much
more pleasant everything is.
Why would you ever go back?
So I love your take on that,Judy.
I think it's, I think it'sinspirational and I think
there's so much that otherpeople can learn from all of
(32:35):
that.
What's, I mean, we kind of, I'dlove, I just, I always seem to
have guests on.
I just wanna go on for hours andhours.
I could just ask so manyquestions and so many things I
could share with the audience.
What's be before we wrap theshow up and we, when we close
things down, first of all, I'mgonna make sure that all of your
contact details are in the shownotes and everything so people
can reach out.
If curious to learn more aboutyour coaching, your course, your
(32:57):
books, that will all be inthere.
What's one outdated leadershipmindset or business culture
habit that you wish, you know,more leaders could just leave
behind them when they'restarting out?
Julie (33:08):
Yeah, there's more than one, but I think what I would
say that you have to have allthe answers.
That outdated model creates somuch pressure and that
unnecessary pressure.
And again, if we're aboutreducing stress, reducing
friction, you know, anythingthat gets in the way, then that
would be one of'em.
You don't have to have the allthe answers.
(33:29):
It's silences teams.
People are looking up to you tohave, there's something special
about, you know, being the onethat everybody looks to, but at
the end of the day, it doesn'tmatter where the ideas come from
and you have a team around you.
So use them.
Leadership isn't about control.
It's about creating space forothers to contribute, grow, and
(33:49):
take ownership.
And I thought about this inpreparation for today.
And you know, I, it is a risk towalk in and not have any of the
answers.
I remember my first year as thedirector of nursing, I asked a
lot of questions.
Probably the first, I don'tknow, the first few months for
sure, and then over time, butwhat it did was I.
(34:11):
Really presented myself as, Idon't know.
Because I didn't know how theydid things.
I knew how to do things, but Ididn't know how they did things.
And there was a little bit of arisk'cause they're like, oh, she
doesn't know anything.
No, I don't.
I don't know how you do things.
And yet over time they came tounderstand why I did that and
that I wasn't coming in withtheir answers for them.
(34:33):
Had to hear from them first.
And so, you know, people don'twanna be micromanaged.
They wanna be trusted,respected, and heard.
And leaders who still operatefrom that top down, you know,
command and control style, aremissing the opportunity to
really unlock the full potentialof their team and to.
(34:54):
come together with their teamsto create something that we all
want.
So that there, it's not justabout you, like we mentioned the
word vision earlier.
If the vision has to besomething that's everybody's
enrolled in and we can createthat together, but you can't
create it without listening toyour team and having, if you
have the answer, then you'rejust telling them what.
(35:14):
Where they're going rather thanenlisting them and asking them
questions about where they wannasee it go.
And so leadership isn't aboutbeing right, it's about getting
it right, but together.
You don't need to be thesmartest person in the room,
just the one that brings out thebest in others so that you get
the most from them.
Paul (35:33):
Just the one that asks the right questions.
Right?
I love it.
Julie (35:36):
Yeah.
Paul (35:36):
Thank you very much for being a fabulous guest here and
Judy, we'll have to have youback on'cause I like, I could
probably ask you another threehours worth of questions.
It's been awesome.
Thank you very much for spendingthe time with us.
Julie (35:46):
it.
Thank you so much, Paul.
This has been a pleasure.
Paul (35:49):
Awesome.
And thank you at home forwatching the show subscribe,
make sure you've given us afollow and if you'd be so kind
as to drop us a rating onSpotify or Apple, that would be
amazing as well.
Thank you very much and I'll seeyou next week on MarketPulse
Pros and Pioneers.
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