June 11, 2025 • 26 mins
Enjoying the Show? Share Your Experience!
HR should be about people—but too often, it's just about policies, compliance, and ticking boxes.
In this episode of MarketPulse: Pros and Pioneers, we’re joined by Gemma Crane, the founder of Mindset HR, who’s on a mission to fix broken HR systems and make the workplace a better, more productive place for employees and business owners alike.
Gemma has seen it all—toxic workplaces, disengaged employees, and leaders obsessed with KPIs over people. She explains why traditional HR is failing, how businesses can fix it, and why happy employees = higher profits.
You'll also hear Gemma’s unexpected journey, from dancing in Turkey to leading HR teams in corporate retail, and why she finally left the rigid, outdated world of corporate HR to launch a new approach—one that’s proactive, human, and actually works.
If you’re a business owner, HR leader, or manager, this episode will challenge everything you thought you knew about HR—and show you a better way forward.
👉 Subscribe now and watch the full episode:
https://www.youtube.com/@marketpulsepodcast?sub_confirmation=1
Show Links
Website: https://www.mindset-hr.co.uk
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/gemma-crane
ADHD Liberty – Our Charity Partner
ADHD Liberty is the first UK charity screening for ADHD in police stations, working to stop the School-to-Prison Pipeline. They’re campaigning for:
✔️ Mandatory ADHD screening in schools from age 5 and at every transition.
✔️ Screening throughout the criminal justice system, homelessness, and addiction services.
✔️ Better support and resources for neurodivergent individuals before they reach crisis points.
Support the mission and learn more:
🔗 https://www.ADHDLiberty.org
🔗 https://www.SarahTempleton.org.uk
🔗 https://www.HeadstuffADHDTherapy.com
More from MarketPulse
Powered by Javelin Content: www.javelincontent.com
Find Paul on LinkedIn: www.linkedin.com/in/paul-banks007
Thanks for listening!!
You can catch us on all major podcast directories - New episode every Wednesday at 3pm UK time. Give us a subscribe to make sure you don't miss out!
We're also on YouTube!
If you want to feature as a guest, and you're either a business owner who does most of their own marketing, or you're a marketer with a passion for sharing your knowledge, current trends and adding value, reach out to me directly.
This show is brought to you by Javelin Content Management - Getting ideas out of your head, into video, and out to your socials.
Use our unique "Record & Repurpose" service to generate over 200 pieces of eye catching content from 30 minutes of your long form video content.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Paul (00:00):
Good afternoon and welcome back for another episode of
(00:02):
MarketPulse Pros and Pioneerspodcast, brought to you in
partnership with ADHD Liberty,breaking the pipeline between
schools and prisons.
If you want to know more aboutADHD Liberty, the links are in
the comments! Today's guest isthe fabulous Gemma Crane.
Gemma, welcome to the show.
Gemma (00:19):
Good morning or good afternoon.
Paul (00:21):
Yeah, it's always weird, isn't it?
We record these so far inadvance.
It's, if you're watching this,we, it is published in the
afternoon.
It is 9am.
Hence I look a bit worse forwear.
I should be able to get up fornine, but here we go.
So Gemma is the founder anddirector of Mindset HR.
So that's a consultancy thatgoes Beyond traditional HR by
focusing much more on attitudes,behaviours and workplace culture
(00:43):
to create a happier, moreproductive business.
Gemma's years of experience inHR and recruitment.
And she's worked across indicesfrom retail to healthcare, law
enforcement, and specifically ondeveloping people centric
strategies that help bridge thegap between business owners and
employees.
She's super passionate abouttransforming workplace dynamics,
(01:04):
ensuring businesses thrivethrough fostering trust,
collaboration, and transparency.
And that's it.
If anybody has been watching theshow recently, you'll have seen
that I've, in my own personalaccount, not just on the
MarketPulse, the values thatyou've pulled out in the bio
there, they are very central towhat a lot of the network is
that we work with.
So I, I'm sure that you get lotsof positive feedback on, how you
(01:28):
differentiate yourself.
And I think in 2025, what, Ithink it's the way forward.
Rewinding back to the beginningGemma, Not many people aim to
get into HR.
Why, how and why did you end upin HR in the first place?
Gemma (01:43):
I have to say it was probably a bit of a fluke.
I started in retail actuallywhen I came out of school did
the customer service piece andthen a friend of mine, a family
friend actually, a friend ofmine was working for a well
known head office retailer atthe time that were growing and
there was a vacancy availableand I applied for it.
(02:04):
And of course, refer a friendwas very much of their business
model as well, so managed to getthe job there and was there for,
I think I was there for about 10years.
So very much started off in thehead office, in the HR
department or personnel as itwas back in the day.
So yeah, started off as a, anadmin for them and then worked
my way through different rolesended up as a recruitment
(02:27):
manager for them.
Before moving on, I had a slightbreak, so I lived in Turkey for
a bit whilst I was there.
So I went off dancing andsinging, which is my background
and then came back.
And the role obviously wouldchange slightly understandably.
And they were kind enough to letme go off and come back.
And then decided it was time fora change, really.
I think living abroad, makes yougrow and evolve, differently as
(02:50):
a being.
Yeah, I was quite different whenI came back
Paul (02:54):
So when you say singing and dancing that covers quite a
lot of aspects so I've gotfriends who are like are people
who are professional dancers andsingers,then I've got people who
are kind of etnertainment kindof singing and dancing are we
talking
Gemma (03:03):
Over there I was doing production shows, so we would do
six different themed shows aweek in an open top restaurant.
It was a sit down restaurantpeople would come along and
yeah, we would choreograph andset the routines.
We did a Bond night, a TinaTurner night, a Disney themed
one a show, showgirl one sothere was all different themes
throughout there.
But, I guess as a dancer, I'dbeen a dancer since the age of
(03:25):
three.
So I've done a variety ofdifferent things, been over to
LA and worked for Disney for abit and travelled, did the
Princess Cruises so that'salways been a bit of a
background for me and I've beenreally fortunate that most HR
roles that I was in, I was ableto go off and have a sabbatical
or take that career break andEither go back into that
(03:46):
business when I came back homeor to, step into that next role.
So I was very fortunate.
Paul (03:52):
So when you got the opportunity to do that and
you're out there in Turkey andworking in that environment what
brought you back again?
Gemma (03:59):
A relationship.
Paul (04:00):
Ah
Gemma (04:01):
a relationship, a man brought me back to England.
So his he sadly lost his mum andhe was coming out every other
week during his sort of offshift to come and see me.
He was from the UK.
And yeah, lost his mum verysuddenly.
So one weekend he was with meand unfortunately, sadly lost
his mum.
So I came home to support thefamily really.
(04:22):
And that's what went from there.
Paul (04:24):
I don't imagine.
First of all, I'm sorry to hearthat, but I can also imagine
that experience influenced youquite heavily working in people
and HR, right?
Gemma (04:34):
Absolutely.
Yeah we were a team that workedtogether over there and it was
really interesting because whenI got the contract, I got on the
plane at Gatwick Airport and I'dnever met these people before
and we were all together and wewere going to be living together
in a block of apartments and wegot to know each other very
quickly.
Paul (04:52):
I can imagine you did.
Yeah.
Gemma (04:54):
from all over the UK.
And yeah, we ended up being thatsort of production team and it
was good fun.
Tough at times.
I missed home.
I really missed the roastdinners and the comforts of your
own home, the carpet, cause wedidn't have carpets and just
really odd things really.
But yeah, missed home.
I was still quite young at thetime and hadn't been away from
(05:15):
home for that period of timebefore.
Was quite homesick for a periodof time, but soon settled in.
Paul (05:19):
Then, take us back to the HR side of things.
So you've progressed through, acorporate HR structure for quite
some time.
Having worked retail myself forquite a number of years, and
experiencing that kind ofcareer, I can imagine that you
found that corporate life bothquite safe and secure, but also
quite frustrating at times.
Gemma (05:41):
Yeah, absolutely.
It was really safe and secure.
It had its challenges, I think,at times.
Corporate is quite rigid interms of its processes and you
Back then there wasn't muchflexibility around change and
innovation.
So for me, was always quite acreative person.
I think being in performing artsand, that side of things, I was
(06:02):
always quite a creative person.
So would always have differentideas and want to put those
things forward.
So yeah it had its positives.
You had the security of beingcorporate, I think.
But certainly when I was going,you more senior in the HR world,
sitting between the managingdirector and the finance
director was more challengingbecause they would be talking
about.
(06:23):
More cash flow and more moneyand this is where we want to get
to but not ever considering thepeople and not ever really
looking at what people do theyneed and what roles do they need
to be able to grow that businessto what that number looks like.
So for me it was a little bitfrustrating at times and I would
be in the middle of that sayinghang on a minute.
(06:46):
Take all of that away, take allof those numbers out, but
actually if you haven't got theright people, and you haven't
got them doing the right thingsin the right places, then
absolutely you're not going toget to that number, no matter
how hard you try.
It was all about theperformance, all about, the
measurements, the KPIs, theobjectives, the values.
Making sure people are happy aswell, because we know that when
(07:08):
people are happy and satisfiedand connected and feeling that
purpose at work, we know thatthey're more productive and
they're going to be performingbetter as well.
Yeah, that's
Paul (07:20):
having worked on the inside of retail, what you said
there is really interesting forme because it probably took me 8
years, 7 or 8 years to get to apoint where I was brave enough
or confident enough to disregardalmost entirely my senior
leadership's instructions whentaking a new store on.
And I did that because I'd, Iknew the same as what you've
(07:43):
just described, right?
It wasn't about the numbers, itwasn't about the metrics, it
wasn't about the KPIs.
your team weren't behind you,didn't believe in you, didn't
have a path forward, weren'tmotivated, weren't enthusiastic,
you could try everything youwanted, but you might as well
just chuck the rest in the bin.
And I tried for the longesttime, I tried to do it the way I
was asked to do it.
(08:03):
Change everything, do a new basewater, the base waters are
wrong, you've got wrong peoplein at the wrong times.
And what I came to realise wasactually, these people are just
being unmotivated, they're notenthusiastic.
They don't have, nobody talks tothem and finds out what they
want.
Nobody helps them progress intheir careers, they just become
a number.
And once I hit that point whereI was brave enough to say No,
(08:25):
I'm not doing it.
The difference in the storesthat I ran was huge.
And the management hated itbecause I was totally rebelling
against everything that had beensaid.
I'm like, no, I'm going to dothis my way.
You'll pay me a lot of money todo what I do.
Let me do what I do.
And if I'm wrong then we candeal with that consequence
afterwards.
And it was never wrong that thepeople, if you've got the people
(08:45):
behind you, and it's, so it'sinteresting to hear that from a
HR perspective, cause I knowsome HR people in that same
business who were frustratedwith things as I was.
And it's that kind of, You'reright.
It's sometimes an us versus themmentality from the leadership
team downwards, but then stuckhaving to justify actions
(09:08):
through KPIs and metrics andred, green and finance, cause
that's what makes the world goaround.
But actually, you've got to takethat away and look at Things
that are hard to quantify and Ithink that's the problem for a
lot of those people.
They come from a world wherethey used to be able to put a
number on things.
I know what that's worth to me.
I know what the return is onthat.
And you're all of a suddenasking them to almost have faith
(09:28):
in something and that's reallyhard, right?
Yeah,
Gemma (09:35):
is the prominent part.
That attraction marketing whenyou're recruiting is really
important.
What is that recruitmentstrategy?
And if you haven't got valuesand you don't know what your
values are, how are you going tobe recruiting people?
that you want to rely on tothose values because you don't
know what they look like.
The first part is knowing whatyou want to be known for
(09:55):
internally and externally.
What do your clients want toknow you for?
What do your employees want toknow you for?
How do they want to feel whenthey walk into your workplace?
How do they want to connect withyou and your clients?
And that is really important.
Once you know those things, Thenyou can build on that
recruitment strategy and you canunderstand what you're looking
for when you're going out foryour adverts, what platforms you
(10:18):
need to be going.
To if it's, if it's young mums,are you going to be going to,
the financial times?
No, you're absolutely not.
You're going to be going to themother and toddler club and
looking for those, those mumsthat want to work for you or
it's really important that youknow what that looks like.
So understanding that and thengoing out and doing those
interviews and making sure thatthose questions that you ask in
(10:38):
those interviews absolutelyalign to those values.
And then you've got a bit of astarting Point from that, so you
know that they're aligned toyour values, they have personal
values, they'll have probablysimilar values in the workplace
then it's about what do theybring to that purpose?
How are they going to be addingvalue to your workplace?
And what do they want to do?
(10:59):
What, where do they want to go?
Do they want to stay on a level?
Do they want to progress?
Do they want to develop?
Do they want to be the managingdirector?
Like how many ambitions do theyhave and where do they want to
go is so important.
And then you can work with thosepeople knowing you're all on the
same hymn sheet.
You've all got the same values,purpose et cetera.
(11:20):
So it's really important.
Paul (11:21):
What was the turning point for you where you said you'd had
enough of corporate and you weregoing to go it alone?
what what caused that to happen?
Gemma (11:29):
I started the business so we're still very young.
I guess I've wanted to do it forsome years.
My son is now 11 and there was aperiod of time when I was a
single parent so that was arisk, for me to not have that
stability for him.
But there was always hope.
(11:50):
A goal, if you like, there wasalways that goal of, it's going
to happen the timing will beright when it's right and I
guess that happened around my40th birthday.
I was like put your big girlpants on, and, what's the worst
thing that can happen?
We're in a really good positionat home, Henry's old enough now
So to be a little bit more selfsufficient.
(12:11):
And I just was probably at thepoint of being unemployable, I
think.
In the sense that, I used to getreally frustrated and there was
a role that I was working innear to the end of that period
where, I would really challengemanaging directors, finance
directors, be quite vocal aboutit.
(12:32):
I never held back.
I'm always transparent, which iswhy it's one of our values
because I need people to reallyunderstand the justification for
my reasoning.
And, It really is down to themwhether they want to change or
not change and absolutely somepeople and some businesses are
not prepared to change despitewhat they tell you in the
beginning.
(12:53):
I got to the point where I waslike, Do you know what?
These businesses want to changebut actually when you get in,
they don't want to change.
I really want to work withbusinesses that are inspired, by
change and by, doing thingsdifferently, but actually have a
passion for people and want todo the right thing by their
people and lead by people.
(13:15):
I did some coaching, and I'mobviously a coach as well, so
during lockdown did lots of oneto one coaching, group coaching
online, and I do lots ofmeditation, and actually the
name Minds HR came to me throughmeditation, and I was like, wow,
okay, this is it.
Literally, this is
Paul (13:32):
Yep.
Gemma (13:32):
Started creating things whilst I was in a corporate
role, was very transparent withmy director at the time, and
just said, look, I'm going to bestepping out.
on I'll happily do theredundancies that we've got
underway at the moment.
I'll see you through, of course,and I'll support you as I need
to.
But this is the end game for me,and this is the date I'm
finishing, and actually, Iprobably would have been made
(13:53):
redundant myself.
Who knows?
But they knew what I wasplanning behind the scenes and I
just got everything aligned, myLinkedIn profile ready to go,
marketing, website, you name it,it was like a switch on.
And then September the 26th,2022, I remember it like it was
yesterday did a live on myLinkedIn and said, hey, here I
am I'm now self employed.
(14:15):
Here we go, help me, support mekind of thing, very vulnerably
don't know where this is goingto go and I've never looked
back.
It's been incredible.
Paul (14:23):
Wow to jump straight To a live stream on day one to say,
this is what I'm doing.
I find a lot of people are It'samazing how many people take the
leap out of corporate and sixmonths pass.
And they realise that they stillhaven't told their immediate
network what it is that they'redoing now compared to what they
used to do because they it youmake an assumption that people
would know because I've beenposting it in my LinkedIn feed
and I have been saying thingsand I've changed my company here
(14:45):
and actually what you do need todo is exactly what you've said
and just make that splash tosay,
Gemma (14:51):
Hello! I've arrived.
ha! Hello, I'm here! Ha! yeah,no, absolutely, and actually
there was a few clients that hadbeen referred to us by past
people that I'd worked with andI'm talking, gosh, 15, 20 years
ago that have come through andsaid, oh, go to Minds.
hr, it's Gemma, we used to workfor Gemma, etc.
(15:13):
So that's really lovely, that'sreally lovely and that's what
it's all about at the end of theday, when you're in a.
Profession and you've been in itfor a long time.
You would hope those people thatyou've really nurtured and
helped and supported, whetherthey're manager level,
supervisor level, directorlevel, that they would really
have your back and support you.
And we're finding that is thecase.
(15:34):
So that's wonderful.
Paul (15:35):
it's what I'd call in the industry, a brand legacy, right
Where you've created a personalbrand without even trying,
right?
Everybody has a personal brand.
We all get hung up on this word,personal branding.
But actually every, all it isjust how you're talked about
when you're not in the room,regardless of who it is that
you're talking about, whetherit's Your previous team that you
used to work with, whether it'speople on LinkedIn, whether it's
(15:56):
your friends and family circle,we've all got a personal brand.
Gemma (16:01):
Yeah.
Paul (16:03):
built such a brand themselves through your work
ethics and how you've heldyourself, that people, like you
say, 20 years later, that'sphenomenal.
Because that is, I know theproblems that you need to solve.
I know who needs to solve them,and I know that they're the only
person that can solve them inthe way that you need them
solving.
(16:24):
And that's what all of us shouldbe aiming for, is that kind of
clarity on what separates usfrom everyone else.
And, let's be honest, HR isn'texactly a small space.
It's quite crowded already,right?
Gemma (16:36):
yep.
Paul (16:37):
To have that impact on people who you've worked with in
the past, that's phenomenal.
Gemma (16:41):
Yep.
Paul (16:42):
What is it that if somebody was to they've
identified they've got a HRproblem that they need support
with, whether it's recruitment,whether it's legal work, whether
it's just employee engagementtype stuff, they've identified
that, you and a couple of othersare potential candidates to help
them solve that, what is it thatyou Would talk to them about how
(17:05):
you're different from everybodyelse.
What is it that sets you unique?
Gemma (17:10):
again it depends on very much what it is that they need
solving, but I guess our sort ofUSP is that we do work with
business owners, we help themsleep at night.
And A lot of the time, that'swhat I say when I go out
networking, is people say, whatdo you do?
And instead of saying I'm an HRconsultant, they go, they switch
off, sleep, it's likehypnotherapy.
(17:30):
yeah,
Paul (17:31):
Oh
Gemma (17:32):
where's the exit?
Yeah, exactly.
It's a little bit like finance.
And so I always say we helpbusiness owners sleep at night
and they look at me a little bitstrangely, but it really sparks
a conversation.
So that's one thing that wewould say is that we help
business owners And the reasonwe do that is because we're not
just their HR partners.
We will speak to you 10 o'clockat night and we have been doing
(17:54):
that the last couple of weeks,if you need to ring us because
you can't sleep and you've gotsomething you want to discuss to
be able to sleep, then give us acall and we'll help you unpick
that, and unprocess that in yourmind.
We also very much are visible inbusiness, so we like to, visit
once, at least once a month withour clients, talk through any
priorities, please.
And things like that, but we'revisible.
(18:16):
We don't just sit in the ivorytower.
We work with the businessowners, but we also support the
employees.
So all of the employees willhave our details.
They can contact us if theydon't want to go to their
manager, because what we alsoknow is most flat structures
don't have that hierarchy to beable to You know, reach out to
another manager or different,different level.
(18:38):
So we are that other level ifyou like.
So we can come in and they cancall us or email us and say,
look, I've got this problem withmy manager.
I've got nowhere else to go.
How do we resolve it?
And we can start then working onresolving that issue before it
escalates or before they leaveor before they raise a grievance
with that proactive support.
So that's really key.
(18:59):
And actually sometimes it's muchmore about The how and the what,
as to what, rather than what theactual problem is.
And actually what we find is alot of owners of businesses will
think it's a problem, thinks asituation's a problem, but
actually when you startunpicking it, it's a completely
different problem.
What you think starts off asbeing one thing actually ends up
(19:19):
being another and then we canactually step in and take that
kind of pressure off and managethat whole process and situation
to make sure that it goes theright way.
And because we're impartial wecan be challenging when we want
to be, whether that's to themanager, the business owner, the
FD, whatever.
Whereas when you've got an inhouse HR They've got to protect
(19:41):
themselves.
They've got to protect thepolitics and they've got to
protect the brand.
They've got to protect theirjob.
They're a little bit exposed toactually being able to say what
they really think.
For us to be able to go, do youknow what, you're not doing it
the right way, actually, andhave you thought about doing it
this way?
Or, what if I said this washappening, how would you respond
to that?
(20:02):
Having those open discussions isreally important.
And I think that probably makesus stand out, particularly.
And of course, we offer Youknow, we offer the Mindset
Coaching side as well, so ifthere are individuals that we
feel are struggling with lifegenerally, and are, have got a,
a well being issue, or havesuffered from trauma in the
past, then we can startreprogramming that subconscious
(20:25):
and start working with them onan individual basis as well,
which is really powerful.
Paul (20:29):
It is, it's a really unique way of looking at things
and I think for me the thingthat tipped it was how you
describe yourself to somebodywho you've never met, right?
That is what a lot of businessowners really do miss because
it's a simple statement that'sactually really hard to come up
with to be fair, like it's notas easy as, they're always
(20:51):
really simple statements andit's so simple that because
you've got your head in theweeds as a business owner
there's Very rarely can you comeup with them yourself hats off
that you've got that because itcreates that curiosity and that
emotional engagement to go, huh,what do you mean?
And you've been invited in atthat point, and that, that is
the bit that so many peoplemiss.
(21:12):
Just creating that, becauseotherwise you've got to go
either a hard sales pitch or areally boring sales pitch.
Gemma (21:20):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Paul (21:24):
the vampire at the window, almost, that's a horrible way of
describing it.
But you've been invited in todiscuss things, right?
That's what we all want to beable to do, and it makes for a
much nicer conversation.
So if you don't mind, did youcome up with that statement
yourself?
Is that something that youthought of, or is it something
somebody else said to you?
That we help business ownerssleep at night?
Gemma (21:47):
it was something that I came up with.
I think comments had been madefrom clients about not being
able to sleep because of peopleproblems.
We work with a lot of familybusinesses and, they're having
fallouts.
And that's, when you have theemotional attachment, as well as
(22:08):
the professional attachment toyour business, that's a really
different ballgame, ballgame tobe in.
And we help them to navigatethrough the emotional side, but
also the professional, thelegislative side as well and
keeping them compliant.
So those two things.
So I often say to, to thebusiness owners that are
literally, you can see themcombust, combusting in the room
(22:29):
cause they're going red, they'reangry, and this is what they
want to happen.
I'm like let's take a step back.
Let's sit down, let's do somework.
Let's talk about how you'refeeling.
Let's talk about you, how doesthis make you feel?
What does that look like and howis that coming out in reality?
And often they'll say, I'm justnot sleeping, I can't sleep.
Paul (22:48):
Yep.
Gemma (22:49):
That's probably where that came from.
there's probably a few othersthat we tend to use as well,
that when we go out networkingand trying to take away that
stigma of HR, cause we, we areHR and when I set the brand, I
actually didn't want HR in thebrand name, but I had to,
because if not, people wouldn'tknow what we did.
But it's changing thatstereotypical view of HR because
(23:12):
I do know and people, I thinkpeople think that HR people
don't know, we absolutely doknow that there's a stigma to HR
and we're seen as the bad guysor, We don't really have any
influence in business and that'svery corporate.
Changing that stigma is about.
Being that sort of person thatcan go in and challenge the
(23:34):
status quo.
Paul (23:35):
Thank you very much for sharing that, Gemma.
There's a lot of detail to diginto there.
I think you handled thequestions really well.
Thank you very much for sharingyour journey with us.
If folks are listening along athome and they want to find out a
bit more about you or MindsetHR, what's the best way for them
to contact you?
Gemma (23:49):
So definitely on LinkedIn, that is a place where
we hang out.
So either on my page, GemmaCrane, or on the Mindset HR, or
the website which is www.
mindset hr.
co.
uk But we do podcasts, we donetworking, we're out and about.
So if you're particularly, EastAnglia wise and in that
location, you will probably seeus cause we get out a lot to
(24:12):
different venues and events andthings, but yeah, thanks for
having me on today.
Paul (24:17):
Fantastic.
Thank you very much for being aguest.
And if you watch along at home,thank you for being our
audience.
We love you very much, and Iwill see you next week.
Bye bye
Good afternoon and welcome back for another episode of
(00:02):
MarketPulse Pros and Pioneerspodcast, brought to you in
partnership with ADHD Liberty,breaking the pipeline between
schools and prisons.
If you want to know more aboutADHD Liberty, the links are in
the comments! Today's guest isthe fabulous Gemma Crane.
Gemma, welcome to the show.
Gemma (00:19):
Good morning or good afternoon.
Paul (00:21):
Yeah, it's always weird, isn't it?
We record these so far inadvance.
It's, if you're watching this,we, it is published in the
afternoon.
It is 9am.
Hence I look a bit worse forwear.
I should be able to get up fornine, but here we go.
So Gemma is the founder anddirector of Mindset HR.
So that's a consultancy thatgoes Beyond traditional HR by
focusing much more on attitudes,behaviours and workplace culture
(00:43):
to create a happier, moreproductive business.
Gemma's years of experience inHR and recruitment.
And she's worked across indicesfrom retail to healthcare, law
enforcement, and specifically ondeveloping people centric
strategies that help bridge thegap between business owners and
employees.
She's super passionate abouttransforming workplace dynamics,
(01:04):
ensuring businesses thrivethrough fostering trust,
collaboration, and transparency.
And that's it.
If anybody has been watching theshow recently, you'll have seen
that I've, in my own personalaccount, not just on the
MarketPulse, the values thatyou've pulled out in the bio
there, they are very central towhat a lot of the network is
that we work with.
So I, I'm sure that you get lotsof positive feedback on, how you
(01:28):
differentiate yourself.
And I think in 2025, what, Ithink it's the way forward.
Rewinding back to the beginningGemma, Not many people aim to
get into HR.
Why, how and why did you end upin HR in the first place?
Gemma (01:43):
I have to say it was probably a bit of a fluke.
I started in retail actuallywhen I came out of school did
the customer service piece andthen a friend of mine, a family
friend actually, a friend ofmine was working for a well
known head office retailer atthe time that were growing and
there was a vacancy availableand I applied for it.
(02:04):
And of course, refer a friendwas very much of their business
model as well, so managed to getthe job there and was there for,
I think I was there for about 10years.
So very much started off in thehead office, in the HR
department or personnel as itwas back in the day.
So yeah, started off as a, anadmin for them and then worked
my way through different rolesended up as a recruitment
(02:27):
manager for them.
Before moving on, I had a slightbreak, so I lived in Turkey for
a bit whilst I was there.
So I went off dancing andsinging, which is my background
and then came back.
And the role obviously wouldchange slightly understandably.
And they were kind enough to letme go off and come back.
And then decided it was time fora change, really.
I think living abroad, makes yougrow and evolve, differently as
(02:50):
a being.
Yeah, I was quite different whenI came back
Paul (02:54):
So when you say singing and dancing that covers quite a
lot of aspects so I've gotfriends who are like are people
who are professional dancers andsingers,then I've got people who
are kind of etnertainment kindof singing and dancing are we
talking
Gemma (03:03):
Over there I was doing production shows, so we would do
six different themed shows aweek in an open top restaurant.
It was a sit down restaurantpeople would come along and
yeah, we would choreograph andset the routines.
We did a Bond night, a TinaTurner night, a Disney themed
one a show, showgirl one sothere was all different themes
throughout there.
But, I guess as a dancer, I'dbeen a dancer since the age of
(03:25):
three.
So I've done a variety ofdifferent things, been over to
LA and worked for Disney for abit and travelled, did the
Princess Cruises so that'salways been a bit of a
background for me and I've beenreally fortunate that most HR
roles that I was in, I was ableto go off and have a sabbatical
or take that career break andEither go back into that
(03:46):
business when I came back homeor to, step into that next role.
So I was very fortunate.
Paul (03:52):
So when you got the opportunity to do that and
you're out there in Turkey andworking in that environment what
brought you back again?
Gemma (03:59):
A relationship.
Paul (04:00):
Ah
Gemma (04:01):
a relationship, a man brought me back to England.
So his he sadly lost his mum andhe was coming out every other
week during his sort of offshift to come and see me.
He was from the UK.
And yeah, lost his mum verysuddenly.
So one weekend he was with meand unfortunately, sadly lost
his mum.
So I came home to support thefamily really.
(04:22):
And that's what went from there.
Paul (04:24):
I don't imagine.
First of all, I'm sorry to hearthat, but I can also imagine
that experience influenced youquite heavily working in people
and HR, right?
Gemma (04:34):
Absolutely.
Yeah we were a team that workedtogether over there and it was
really interesting because whenI got the contract, I got on the
plane at Gatwick Airport and I'dnever met these people before
and we were all together and wewere going to be living together
in a block of apartments and wegot to know each other very
quickly.
Paul (04:52):
I can imagine you did.
Yeah.
Gemma (04:54):
from all over the UK.
And yeah, we ended up being thatsort of production team and it
was good fun.
Tough at times.
I missed home.
I really missed the roastdinners and the comforts of your
own home, the carpet, cause wedidn't have carpets and just
really odd things really.
But yeah, missed home.
I was still quite young at thetime and hadn't been away from
(05:15):
home for that period of timebefore.
Was quite homesick for a periodof time, but soon settled in.
Paul (05:19):
Then, take us back to the HR side of things.
So you've progressed through, acorporate HR structure for quite
some time.
Having worked retail myself forquite a number of years, and
experiencing that kind ofcareer, I can imagine that you
found that corporate life bothquite safe and secure, but also
quite frustrating at times.
Gemma (05:41):
Yeah, absolutely.
It was really safe and secure.
It had its challenges, I think,at times.
Corporate is quite rigid interms of its processes and you
Back then there wasn't muchflexibility around change and
innovation.
So for me, was always quite acreative person.
I think being in performing artsand, that side of things, I was
(06:02):
always quite a creative person.
So would always have differentideas and want to put those
things forward.
So yeah it had its positives.
You had the security of beingcorporate, I think.
But certainly when I was going,you more senior in the HR world,
sitting between the managingdirector and the finance
director was more challengingbecause they would be talking
about.
(06:23):
More cash flow and more moneyand this is where we want to get
to but not ever considering thepeople and not ever really
looking at what people do theyneed and what roles do they need
to be able to grow that businessto what that number looks like.
So for me it was a little bitfrustrating at times and I would
be in the middle of that sayinghang on a minute.
(06:46):
Take all of that away, take allof those numbers out, but
actually if you haven't got theright people, and you haven't
got them doing the right thingsin the right places, then
absolutely you're not going toget to that number, no matter
how hard you try.
It was all about theperformance, all about, the
measurements, the KPIs, theobjectives, the values.
Making sure people are happy aswell, because we know that when
(07:08):
people are happy and satisfiedand connected and feeling that
purpose at work, we know thatthey're more productive and
they're going to be performingbetter as well.
Yeah, that's
Paul (07:20):
having worked on the inside of retail, what you said
there is really interesting forme because it probably took me 8
years, 7 or 8 years to get to apoint where I was brave enough
or confident enough to disregardalmost entirely my senior
leadership's instructions whentaking a new store on.
And I did that because I'd, Iknew the same as what you've
(07:43):
just described, right?
It wasn't about the numbers, itwasn't about the metrics, it
wasn't about the KPIs.
your team weren't behind you,didn't believe in you, didn't
have a path forward, weren'tmotivated, weren't enthusiastic,
you could try everything youwanted, but you might as well
just chuck the rest in the bin.
And I tried for the longesttime, I tried to do it the way I
was asked to do it.
(08:03):
Change everything, do a new basewater, the base waters are
wrong, you've got wrong peoplein at the wrong times.
And what I came to realise wasactually, these people are just
being unmotivated, they're notenthusiastic.
They don't have, nobody talks tothem and finds out what they
want.
Nobody helps them progress intheir careers, they just become
a number.
And once I hit that point whereI was brave enough to say No,
(08:25):
I'm not doing it.
The difference in the storesthat I ran was huge.
And the management hated itbecause I was totally rebelling
against everything that had beensaid.
I'm like, no, I'm going to dothis my way.
You'll pay me a lot of money todo what I do.
Let me do what I do.
And if I'm wrong then we candeal with that consequence
afterwards.
And it was never wrong that thepeople, if you've got the people
(08:45):
behind you, and it's, so it'sinteresting to hear that from a
HR perspective, cause I knowsome HR people in that same
business who were frustratedwith things as I was.
And it's that kind of, You'reright.
It's sometimes an us versus themmentality from the leadership
team downwards, but then stuckhaving to justify actions
(09:08):
through KPIs and metrics andred, green and finance, cause
that's what makes the world goaround.
But actually, you've got to takethat away and look at Things
that are hard to quantify and Ithink that's the problem for a
lot of those people.
They come from a world wherethey used to be able to put a
number on things.
I know what that's worth to me.
I know what the return is onthat.
And you're all of a suddenasking them to almost have faith
(09:28):
in something and that's reallyhard, right?
Yeah,
Gemma (09:35):
is the prominent part.
That attraction marketing whenyou're recruiting is really
important.
What is that recruitmentstrategy?
And if you haven't got valuesand you don't know what your
values are, how are you going tobe recruiting people?
that you want to rely on tothose values because you don't
know what they look like.
The first part is knowing whatyou want to be known for
(09:55):
internally and externally.
What do your clients want toknow you for?
What do your employees want toknow you for?
How do they want to feel whenthey walk into your workplace?
How do they want to connect withyou and your clients?
And that is really important.
Once you know those things, Thenyou can build on that
recruitment strategy and you canunderstand what you're looking
for when you're going out foryour adverts, what platforms you
(10:18):
need to be going.
To if it's, if it's young mums,are you going to be going to,
the financial times?
No, you're absolutely not.
You're going to be going to themother and toddler club and
looking for those, those mumsthat want to work for you or
it's really important that youknow what that looks like.
So understanding that and thengoing out and doing those
interviews and making sure thatthose questions that you ask in
(10:38):
those interviews absolutelyalign to those values.
And then you've got a bit of astarting Point from that, so you
know that they're aligned toyour values, they have personal
values, they'll have probablysimilar values in the workplace
then it's about what do theybring to that purpose?
How are they going to be addingvalue to your workplace?
And what do they want to do?
(10:59):
What, where do they want to go?
Do they want to stay on a level?
Do they want to progress?
Do they want to develop?
Do they want to be the managingdirector?
Like how many ambitions do theyhave and where do they want to
go is so important.
And then you can work with thosepeople knowing you're all on the
same hymn sheet.
You've all got the same values,purpose et cetera.
(11:20):
So it's really important.
Paul (11:21):
What was the turning point for you where you said you'd had
enough of corporate and you weregoing to go it alone?
what what caused that to happen?
Gemma (11:29):
I started the business so we're still very young.
I guess I've wanted to do it forsome years.
My son is now 11 and there was aperiod of time when I was a
single parent so that was arisk, for me to not have that
stability for him.
But there was always hope.
(11:50):
A goal, if you like, there wasalways that goal of, it's going
to happen the timing will beright when it's right and I
guess that happened around my40th birthday.
I was like put your big girlpants on, and, what's the worst
thing that can happen?
We're in a really good positionat home, Henry's old enough now
So to be a little bit more selfsufficient.
(12:11):
And I just was probably at thepoint of being unemployable, I
think.
In the sense that, I used to getreally frustrated and there was
a role that I was working innear to the end of that period
where, I would really challengemanaging directors, finance
directors, be quite vocal aboutit.
(12:32):
I never held back.
I'm always transparent, which iswhy it's one of our values
because I need people to reallyunderstand the justification for
my reasoning.
And, It really is down to themwhether they want to change or
not change and absolutely somepeople and some businesses are
not prepared to change despitewhat they tell you in the
beginning.
(12:53):
I got to the point where I waslike, Do you know what?
These businesses want to changebut actually when you get in,
they don't want to change.
I really want to work withbusinesses that are inspired, by
change and by, doing thingsdifferently, but actually have a
passion for people and want todo the right thing by their
people and lead by people.
(13:15):
I did some coaching, and I'mobviously a coach as well, so
during lockdown did lots of oneto one coaching, group coaching
online, and I do lots ofmeditation, and actually the
name Minds HR came to me throughmeditation, and I was like, wow,
okay, this is it.
Literally, this is
Paul (13:32):
Yep.
Gemma (13:32):
Started creating things whilst I was in a corporate
role, was very transparent withmy director at the time, and
just said, look, I'm going to bestepping out.
on I'll happily do theredundancies that we've got
underway at the moment.
I'll see you through, of course,and I'll support you as I need
to.
But this is the end game for me,and this is the date I'm
finishing, and actually, Iprobably would have been made
(13:53):
redundant myself.
Who knows?
But they knew what I wasplanning behind the scenes and I
just got everything aligned, myLinkedIn profile ready to go,
marketing, website, you name it,it was like a switch on.
And then September the 26th,2022, I remember it like it was
yesterday did a live on myLinkedIn and said, hey, here I
am I'm now self employed.
(14:15):
Here we go, help me, support mekind of thing, very vulnerably
don't know where this is goingto go and I've never looked
back.
It's been incredible.
Paul (14:23):
Wow to jump straight To a live stream on day one to say,
this is what I'm doing.
I find a lot of people are It'samazing how many people take the
leap out of corporate and sixmonths pass.
And they realise that they stillhaven't told their immediate
network what it is that they'redoing now compared to what they
used to do because they it youmake an assumption that people
would know because I've beenposting it in my LinkedIn feed
and I have been saying thingsand I've changed my company here
(14:45):
and actually what you do need todo is exactly what you've said
and just make that splash tosay,
Gemma (14:51):
Hello! I've arrived.
ha! Hello, I'm here! Ha! yeah,no, absolutely, and actually
there was a few clients that hadbeen referred to us by past
people that I'd worked with andI'm talking, gosh, 15, 20 years
ago that have come through andsaid, oh, go to Minds.
hr, it's Gemma, we used to workfor Gemma, etc.
(15:13):
So that's really lovely, that'sreally lovely and that's what
it's all about at the end of theday, when you're in a.
Profession and you've been in itfor a long time.
You would hope those people thatyou've really nurtured and
helped and supported, whetherthey're manager level,
supervisor level, directorlevel, that they would really
have your back and support you.
And we're finding that is thecase.
(15:34):
So that's wonderful.
Paul (15:35):
it's what I'd call in the industry, a brand legacy, right
Where you've created a personalbrand without even trying,
right?
Everybody has a personal brand.
We all get hung up on this word,personal branding.
But actually every, all it isjust how you're talked about
when you're not in the room,regardless of who it is that
you're talking about, whetherit's Your previous team that you
used to work with, whether it'speople on LinkedIn, whether it's
(15:56):
your friends and family circle,we've all got a personal brand.
Gemma (16:01):
Yeah.
Paul (16:03):
built such a brand themselves through your work
ethics and how you've heldyourself, that people, like you
say, 20 years later, that'sphenomenal.
Because that is, I know theproblems that you need to solve.
I know who needs to solve them,and I know that they're the only
person that can solve them inthe way that you need them
solving.
(16:24):
And that's what all of us shouldbe aiming for, is that kind of
clarity on what separates usfrom everyone else.
And, let's be honest, HR isn'texactly a small space.
It's quite crowded already,right?
Gemma (16:36):
yep.
Paul (16:37):
To have that impact on people who you've worked with in
the past, that's phenomenal.
Gemma (16:41):
Yep.
Paul (16:42):
What is it that if somebody was to they've
identified they've got a HRproblem that they need support
with, whether it's recruitment,whether it's legal work, whether
it's just employee engagementtype stuff, they've identified
that, you and a couple of othersare potential candidates to help
them solve that, what is it thatyou Would talk to them about how
(17:05):
you're different from everybodyelse.
What is it that sets you unique?
Gemma (17:10):
again it depends on very much what it is that they need
solving, but I guess our sort ofUSP is that we do work with
business owners, we help themsleep at night.
And A lot of the time, that'swhat I say when I go out
networking, is people say, whatdo you do?
And instead of saying I'm an HRconsultant, they go, they switch
off, sleep, it's likehypnotherapy.
(17:30):
yeah,
Paul (17:31):
Oh
Gemma (17:32):
where's the exit?
Yeah, exactly.
It's a little bit like finance.
And so I always say we helpbusiness owners sleep at night
and they look at me a little bitstrangely, but it really sparks
a conversation.
So that's one thing that wewould say is that we help
business owners And the reasonwe do that is because we're not
just their HR partners.
We will speak to you 10 o'clockat night and we have been doing
(17:54):
that the last couple of weeks,if you need to ring us because
you can't sleep and you've gotsomething you want to discuss to
be able to sleep, then give us acall and we'll help you unpick
that, and unprocess that in yourmind.
We also very much are visible inbusiness, so we like to, visit
once, at least once a month withour clients, talk through any
priorities, please.
And things like that, but we'revisible.
(18:16):
We don't just sit in the ivorytower.
We work with the businessowners, but we also support the
employees.
So all of the employees willhave our details.
They can contact us if theydon't want to go to their
manager, because what we alsoknow is most flat structures
don't have that hierarchy to beable to You know, reach out to
another manager or different,different level.
(18:38):
So we are that other level ifyou like.
So we can come in and they cancall us or email us and say,
look, I've got this problem withmy manager.
I've got nowhere else to go.
How do we resolve it?
And we can start then working onresolving that issue before it
escalates or before they leaveor before they raise a grievance
with that proactive support.
So that's really key.
(18:59):
And actually sometimes it's muchmore about The how and the what,
as to what, rather than what theactual problem is.
And actually what we find is alot of owners of businesses will
think it's a problem, thinks asituation's a problem, but
actually when you startunpicking it, it's a completely
different problem.
What you think starts off asbeing one thing actually ends up
(19:19):
being another and then we canactually step in and take that
kind of pressure off and managethat whole process and situation
to make sure that it goes theright way.
And because we're impartial wecan be challenging when we want
to be, whether that's to themanager, the business owner, the
FD, whatever.
Whereas when you've got an inhouse HR They've got to protect
(19:41):
themselves.
They've got to protect thepolitics and they've got to
protect the brand.
They've got to protect theirjob.
They're a little bit exposed toactually being able to say what
they really think.
For us to be able to go, do youknow what, you're not doing it
the right way, actually, andhave you thought about doing it
this way?
Or, what if I said this washappening, how would you respond
to that?
(20:02):
Having those open discussions isreally important.
And I think that probably makesus stand out, particularly.
And of course, we offer Youknow, we offer the Mindset
Coaching side as well, so ifthere are individuals that we
feel are struggling with lifegenerally, and are, have got a,
a well being issue, or havesuffered from trauma in the
past, then we can startreprogramming that subconscious
(20:25):
and start working with them onan individual basis as well,
which is really powerful.
Paul (20:29):
It is, it's a really unique way of looking at things
and I think for me the thingthat tipped it was how you
describe yourself to somebodywho you've never met, right?
That is what a lot of businessowners really do miss because
it's a simple statement that'sactually really hard to come up
with to be fair, like it's notas easy as, they're always
(20:51):
really simple statements andit's so simple that because
you've got your head in theweeds as a business owner
there's Very rarely can you comeup with them yourself hats off
that you've got that because itcreates that curiosity and that
emotional engagement to go, huh,what do you mean?
And you've been invited in atthat point, and that, that is
the bit that so many peoplemiss.
(21:12):
Just creating that, becauseotherwise you've got to go
either a hard sales pitch or areally boring sales pitch.
Gemma (21:20):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Paul (21:24):
the vampire at the window, almost, that's a horrible way of
describing it.
But you've been invited in todiscuss things, right?
That's what we all want to beable to do, and it makes for a
much nicer conversation.
So if you don't mind, did youcome up with that statement
yourself?
Is that something that youthought of, or is it something
somebody else said to you?
That we help business ownerssleep at night?
Gemma (21:47):
it was something that I came up with.
I think comments had been madefrom clients about not being
able to sleep because of peopleproblems.
We work with a lot of familybusinesses and, they're having
fallouts.
And that's, when you have theemotional attachment, as well as
(22:08):
the professional attachment toyour business, that's a really
different ballgame, ballgame tobe in.
And we help them to navigatethrough the emotional side, but
also the professional, thelegislative side as well and
keeping them compliant.
So those two things.
So I often say to, to thebusiness owners that are
literally, you can see themcombust, combusting in the room
(22:29):
cause they're going red, they'reangry, and this is what they
want to happen.
I'm like let's take a step back.
Let's sit down, let's do somework.
Let's talk about how you'refeeling.
Let's talk about you, how doesthis make you feel?
What does that look like and howis that coming out in reality?
And often they'll say, I'm justnot sleeping, I can't sleep.
Paul (22:48):
Yep.
Gemma (22:49):
That's probably where that came from.
there's probably a few othersthat we tend to use as well,
that when we go out networkingand trying to take away that
stigma of HR, cause we, we areHR and when I set the brand, I
actually didn't want HR in thebrand name, but I had to,
because if not, people wouldn'tknow what we did.
But it's changing thatstereotypical view of HR because
(23:12):
I do know and people, I thinkpeople think that HR people
don't know, we absolutely doknow that there's a stigma to HR
and we're seen as the bad guysor, We don't really have any
influence in business and that'svery corporate.
Changing that stigma is about.
Being that sort of person thatcan go in and challenge the
(23:34):
status quo.
Paul (23:35):
Thank you very much for sharing that, Gemma.
There's a lot of detail to diginto there.
I think you handled thequestions really well.
Thank you very much for sharingyour journey with us.
If folks are listening along athome and they want to find out a
bit more about you or MindsetHR, what's the best way for them
to contact you?
Gemma (23:49):
So definitely on LinkedIn, that is a place where
we hang out.
So either on my page, GemmaCrane, or on the Mindset HR, or
the website which is www.
mindset hr.
co.
uk But we do podcasts, we donetworking, we're out and about.
So if you're particularly, EastAnglia wise and in that
location, you will probably seeus cause we get out a lot to
(24:12):
different venues and events andthings, but yeah, thanks for
having me on today.
Paul (24:17):
Fantastic.
Thank you very much for being aguest.
And if you watch along at home,thank you for being our
audience.
We love you very much, and Iwill see you next week.
Bye bye
Popular Podcasts
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
The Breakfast Club
The World's Most Dangerous Morning Show, The Breakfast Club, With DJ Envy And Charlamagne Tha God!
The Joe Rogan Experience
The official podcast of comedian Joe Rogan.