November 19, 2025 • 41 mins
Enjoying the Show? Share Your Experience!
Ever felt like your leadership role was slowly crushing your spirit?
In this episode of MarketPulse, we dive deep with Kathy Archer, a leadership coach who helps women in the non-profit sector lead with confidence and clarity after burnout.
Kathy’s journey is raw and honest. She shares the moment her values clashed with her career, how burnout forced her to rebuild her integrity, and what she learned about leading from within. Together, we explore how leadership isn’t about doing more – it’s about being more. From self-reflection and journaling to daily micro-moments that restore balance, Kathy’s insights challenge traditional leadership culture and offer a blueprint for sustainable success.
Whether you’re a seasoned executive or an emerging leader, this conversation reminds us that growth starts inside. Learn how to recognise the warning signs of burnout, create space for reflection, and rediscover the energy that drives authentic leadership.
Subscribe to hear stories that redefine leadership and inspire purposeful growth.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Paul (00:03):
Ever felt like you're drowning in your leadership
role?
This episode is about findingyour footing again and building
a leadership style rooted inconfidence, clarity, and
purpose.
Kathy Archer spent years as anonprofit leader managing
complex programs and supportingvulnerable families.
Whilst secretly teaching on thebrink of burnout, her
(00:25):
transformation began when sherealised leadership wasn't about
doing more, but leading better.
Today, she's a leadershipdevelopment coach, helping women
in non-profit roles lead withclarity, confidence, and
strength.
Through her books podcast andtraining library, Kathy's on a
mission to empower overwhelmedleaders to reclaim their purpose
(00:45):
and make a real impact withoutlosing themselves in the
process.
Kathy, welcome to the show.
Kathy (00:51):
I am excited to be here.
Paul (00:53):
I apologise.
It's been some time since wefirst spoke.
It's took a bit ofreorganisation of our lives to
get you on here, but I'm so,pleased to have you here today.
I'm excited to share what yourstory, it's gonna be fun.
so I'm gonna, I'm gonna justdive straight in Kathy, and,
jump right back.
you.
spent over a decade supportingfamilies in managing programs,
(01:15):
leading nonprofit teams.
What point did you realisesomething wasn't quite right,
that you needed to changesomething?
Kathy (01:22):
When I hit rock bottom, I had been doing well.
I had been, it hit a low earlyin my career, and at that point
in time I realised I needed togo back and get the training.
Often we're moving intoleadership positions without
that training and support to dothe role.
So I went back to school, got mymanagement degree.
Did some work on myself to getto that point where I started to
(01:45):
grow and develop my team.
And we were really a succinct,strong team.
We were doing some incrediblethings as a result, we got this
large, big new contract thatleft me scrambling to keep up.
and so instantly overnight.
more responsibilities and moretravel and more staff and bigger
(02:06):
budget and all of this kind ofstuff.
And so I did what most of us do.
I doubled down.
I worked harder, I stayed later.
I, in dove deeper and I kindalost sense of what I was really
doing along that way.
And my staff Kept telling melike, you're not listening,
you're not helping, you're notthere for us.
(02:26):
You keep pushing us to do more.
And I'm like, come on, we gotmore to do.
And so it culminated in this,big mess where, you know, first
I'd got a performance wherestaff said, I lacked integrity.
talk about, that one hurt.
Paul (02:45):
Yeah.
And then the staff
Kathy (02:45):
filed grievance against me and so those two things left
me, like I say, hitting rockbottom.
I didn't know if I wanted to dothe job anymore.
I didn't know if I wanted tostay in the sector anymore.
I, just, what was the point?
I had tried so hard and this iswhat everybody gave me, And at
the time, my boss had been myboss for quite a while, so he
(03:08):
knew my strengths, he knew whatI was capable of, and he didn't
know what to do in thissituation.
I can't help you anymore, Kathy.
I don't know what's going on.
And so he was the one thatintroduced me to coaching.
so it was then that I was like,oh, I need to work on myself.
It's not just about theleadership and the, budgets and
the meetings.
It's about how am I showing upand that lack of integrity was
(03:31):
in that I'm here for you, butI'm not, work life balance is
important.
but i was so out of balance andI was pushing my staff to be out
of balance.
So absolutely lack of integritya real wake up call.
Paul (03:44):
That sounds, I know, incredibly painful, but
absolutely candid.
And I was gonna ask youoriginally what does burnout
look like?
But I think there's a betterversion of that question, which
is knowing what you know nowthat you probably didn't know at
the time.
What did burnout actually looklike?
Kathy (04:04):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Paul (04:05):
Because I think we learn a lot in the post experience and
when we, realised we've gone toofar, and then it's easy to piece
together the things that wewouldn't have known even at the
time were signs.
Kathy (04:17):
Yes, when we talk about burnout, it's a physical mental
exhaustion, right?
That's not what's happening forleaders often.
They show up together, right?
Like they're able to do theirjob.
They're, putting in 8, 10, 12hour days.
(04:37):
they're getting things done.
And so to, to the outsideobserver.
you're are on fire, right?
You're doing stuff.
It's the inner, I call it justthat ickiness, you know you are
not being true to yourself.
You're not being true to yourvalues, something's off.
At one point my son was in a caraccident, 16 years old, new to
(05:03):
driving the year.
not wearing a seatbelt, flipsthe car end over end and is
thrown out the back window.
miraculously he did not have abroken bone.
Fine for the most part, I waseight hours away at a meeting.
or at training actually.
(05:27):
And I was, phone off at 8.30'cause we're going into
training.
So at 10 o'clock I opened my,turned my phone on.
It's full of messages for myhusband.
and so I call him and he tellsme what happens.
He is he's okay, he just cameout of X-ray, like he's in a lot
of pain, but, stay.
So my husband tells me to stayat training of course.
(05:50):
I'm, learning and getting stuffdone.
Absolutely.
I'm gonna stay.
and so three days I finish upthe training.
On the third day I'm set totravel to the other side of the
country to go to managementmeetings.
I went instead of coming home.
Paul (06:08):
Wow.
Kathy (06:08):
So my husband, other son, took care of my accident.
talk Mismatch of values.
Family's incredibly important tome, right?
And yet I, not once, but twice Iput work over my family and so
that mismatch of values was thatsign to me, that icking, I.
(06:30):
could feel the tension, and yetI just powered through, right?
This is important.
My husband's got it,everything's fine.
And it's that mismatch of valuesthat is that, warning sign that
you're leading to burnout.
And that was that personalexample.
But there was many work examplestoo, where I just kept the ick
and just pushing through.
Paul (06:50):
wow.
I can't imagine what, and, what,how did your husband.
Was your husband still acceptingof that kind of behaviour even
after the fact?
'cause I bet there's a lot ofpeople out there who would tell
their, spouse, their partner to,yeah.
Yeah.
You steer, but then secretly onthe inside were like, yeah,
you'll come home.
You've gotta come home.
but.
Kathy (07:09):
Yeah.
He, to his credit, he's neverdone.
We've had millions ofconversations.
My son has said, mom, it's fine.
I was like, hi.
I couldn't tell who was there ornot there.
we've had lots of conversationsabout it since.
but I think, on the flip side,when I decided it was time leave
that position and start out onmy own in a business, my husband
(07:30):
wanted me to stay and notbecause.
he didn't believe in me ordidn't think what I was saying I
was wanted to do was important.
But there's also an element of,oh, what's the word?
Prestige.
I was, I could have, kept movingup the ladder, making good
money, having a good title, agood position.
And so the role broughtsomething to us as a family, as,
(07:55):
oh, Kathy's leader.
and so he.
He and I kept looking at that,this is what you gotta do.
You have the opportunity, likeyou keep climbing the ladder
and, at some point I was like,this just doesn't align with me.
It doesn't align with who I am.
My values are constantly beingsquashed.
Something's completely off rightnow.
(08:19):
I could have stayed in the roleand shifted things perhaps, but
at some point I recognised thatthe sector I'm in is a really
crisis driven, scarcity mindset,panic, all the time, sector.
And if we're going to changethat, it's probably gonna take
more than just me Hey, I'msetting some boundaries.
(08:41):
It's gonna take a lot of ussaying those kinds of things.
And so I knew that if I startedworking with leaders
individually, that I wouldprobably have a bigger ripple
than just me pushing back alone.
Paul (08:51):
So you got to a point where you had a coach yourself.
You brought a leadership coachin to work with you.
What was that first sessionlike?
Kathy (09:01):
it's lunchtime.
My door is closed.
I book it at lunch because Ihope around, it's lunchtime, the
door is closed, but of I.
of course people are probablystill in the office.
So I'm hunched over my desk,whispering into the phone with
tears running down my face.
I'm telling the story.
Nobody's cares about me,nobody's listening, nobody's
(09:21):
helping.
Everybody's out to get me.
and for the first time, somebodyjust listened, right?
They didn't try and fix it.
They didn't tell me I was wrong.
They didn't tell me what to do.
They just listened and acceptedthe story and then they started
asking me questions about myexperience of what I was going
through, right?
(09:42):
and That experience for me.
Somebody said it to me justyesterday in a coaching call.
She said, you listen, that's it.
Like somebody to listen to mystory.
and so for me that was the firstpart.
The second part was some of theexercises he had me do, like
identifying my values and I'dnever.
(10:03):
sure, maybe I'd circled a coupleat one point, but I'd never sat
down to really look at thosevalues.
And so when I looked at thatvalue of family and how far off
I was or wellbeing, it was soimportant to me.
And yet I certainly wasn't doingthat.
Those were those wake up calls,not just for me, but.
(10:23):
When I flipped it, I looked atwhat I was expecting of my
staff.
If I value those things,shouldn't I then be giving those
to my staff?
and so it was the ability for meto step back and see things from
a different lens.
Paul (11:11):
Fascinating how many guests that we have on the com
on the podcast that, that have asimilar story.
Not the same, but similar andsimilar experiences and that,
that kind of crucible that we'veall gone through to get where we
are right now.
And I, think back to, we had theFantastic Sky Jarret on the
show, a few weeks back And, shejust leaned into the camera like
(11:34):
this.
She just leaned in.
She went, but don't telleveryone there's another way.
and I love that.
I love that sticks with me somuch because I could just see
her doing it.
I totally unexpected and I waslike, wow.
Because, we don't need to shoutabout it.
Those of us who've been throughthat, you know what, and I went
through very similar, I probablywouldn't have made the same
choice, but neither was I asseniors, I think that, I think
(11:57):
there's something in that,right?
Like the more senior you become,the more privileged your
position.
The more pressure there is toput business first in front of
the family and things like that.
But, I remember being in retailand my staff ringing me up to
say that they were ill andprobably weren't ill.
They were probably just reallystressed out or here at their
(12:18):
job and there's me on the phonegoing, but when will you be
back?
And I'm thinking to myself, isthis the person I want to be?
Is this who I am?
Like this is horrible.
I don't wanna ask that question.
You go and look after yourselfand come back when you can, but
please send me someone, you canhelp me today.
(12:40):
but, so I guess at this pointthen, you've gone through
various different roles.
you've found yourself working inthe industry that you do.
What's the common thread througheverything that you've done to
this point where you, gotinvolved with your coach?
What is it that kind of.
Is that the guiding why, I guessthat sits in the middle of all
(13:05):
of the rules that you've held?
Because that's where we all getto where we want to go, Right.
That's the one thing.
Kathy (13:10):
Yeah.
I know that if I grow myself behealthy, happy, competent,
confident, everyone around meis, and I can do that for other
people.
The key to that isself-reflection.
self-reflection is the key toeverything.
And if we're not.
Doing that inner not navalgazing, but just who am I?
(13:34):
What's important to me?
What are my morals, VA values,ethics, what hills am I gonna
die on?
how do I wanna show up?
What's the impact I wanna have?
If we're not doing that work, wedo become very self-centered
and, just, focus on tick, tick.
Gotta get the meetings done and,get through all of this.
It's that inner growth that,allows us to be our best.
(13:57):
When I look at the people I'mworking with or potentially
gonna work with it's thatquestion of have you looked
inside?
And how often do you lookinside?
I was talking with somebodyyesterday, and she was talking
about, I, I make space'cause I'malways pushing my people to
create space to be moreintentional, right?
I make space to get my calendarready and plan my week and all
(14:18):
this kind of stuff.
And I, said, I get that.
But do you make time to askyourself, how do I wanna show up
in this meeting?
What's the impact I want tohave?
How do I want these people towalk out of this meeting
feeling?
Do you make space for that?
Even like a minute before you gointo that meeting?
Because that's, always talkingabout character, right?
That's the character, yourreputation, that's what people
(14:40):
think of you, not, the agendaitems and you know how long the
meeting was.
But who showed up to run thatThat's the impact.
And self-reflection is key tothat.
Paul (14:52):
do you think that there was a point in time before you
got involved in coaching thatperhaps you were, i guess
swapping that success for thethings that.
you really enjoyed doing?
Like it kind of it, it tickedthe box in terms of dopamine and
fulfillment and, but actuallyyou were kind of conning
yourself, right?
Kathy (15:11):
yeah.
there was, pre kind ofleadership and then when I found
myself again, I can, there was aperiod of time where one of my
top strengths is learner.
I love to read, my place isstacked with books all the time.
I didn't read for years, likenot a book.
(15:33):
and the, or the learning I wasdoing was so focused on, we
needed to learn at that moment.
It wasn't filling my soul.
I stopped doing crafts, like Iloved to, to crochet and, paint
and do that kind of stuff.
Gardening.
And yeah, there was that periodwhere I just didn't have the
energy or the focus or the timeor the desire to do the things
(15:55):
that.
Made me light up.
and, so yeah, the, hits I wasgetting was got that task done,
got that meeting done, hiredsomebody, got the office set up
right.
and yeah, it just, it wasn't thesame.
Paul (16:09):
I love that.
I love that and I think there'sa lot to learn for a lot of
people from that.
And it, it resonates so muchbecause, we, were talking before
the episode started on Monday.
I was at the spa day for mywife's 40th birthday, and we
were sat at the spa and it wasthe second part of the
conversation that I started whenmy son was in the house the
night before and he's 7 almost 8And, we were talking about how I
(16:32):
love reading Stephen King books.
I've got all of the books, allof them.
And I haven't read Stephen King,I haven't read anything.
In years because the kids camefirst.
Kids came first, then I wasworking and by the time I've
done all of that, I'm tired.
I just, wanna relax.
I haven't got time to read.
And actually, and I was I wasputting it that I didn't want to
(16:53):
not speak to my wife because Iwas reading a book.
It feels rude, right?
I, should be spending the timetogether watching the TV not
speaking to each other.
Kathy (17:02):
Yeah.
Paul (17:02):
And on a kind of, and when I said that to my son, I there
was a moment that when my, thatwas in my head, it was like,
really?
So you're gonna pretend to watchthe TV when actually you're just
gonna stare at your phone, butyou're gonna not read your book
because you wanna be able totalk to your wife, which you're
not doing anywhere.
And we were sat the spa and Iwent, I'm gonna start reading
again.
And she looked at me and shesmiled and I was like, Yeah.
(17:24):
I'm gonna start reading.
not every night, but some nightsI'm gonna have a book down there
and I'm gonna start reading.
Rather than watching the tv, youcan have the TV on and you can
watch it or you can play withyour phone if that's what you
wanna do.
I'm gonna read because I haven'tdone it for ages and I actually
really miss reading Stephen Kingand She was just like, I ex, I
dunno what I expected.
A kind of part of me thinks Iwould you like, she's not gonna
(17:48):
be angry with that.
but part of me half expected it.
Yeah.
Like, why haven't I been doingit before now?
So that just, that, thatconversation really brings that
to life for me.
So let's, go back to yourjourney then.
So you've, gotten involved witha coach yourself.
You're starting to realise allthese things are not aligned
(18:08):
with who you are.
How do we get from there to thepoint where you realise that
coaching is the thing that youwant to align on and, become?
Kathy (18:16):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I think I knew the minute I hadmy first coaching call, it was
like, oh my God, this is it.
i think I've always had a.
I use the word spiritual verylightly.
Just that, that desire to figurepeople out and support that
inner growth.
And so when I got into coaching,I was like, oh, this isn't
(18:37):
therapy.
It's not some woo kind of thing.
This has got some meat to it.
And so I had actually asked myboss at that time, if I could
take the training, and he's no,we can't afford it.
And so then 2 years later,probably 2 years later, there
was a bursary.
And so I applied for thebursary.
And so that's how I got the,money for the first bit of coach
(19:00):
training that I did.
From there, I, did the rest onmy own.
and at that point in time, Iprobably could have stayed
in-house and coached, but itwasn't offered to me and I
didn't ask for it.
and probably that's.
Best because going out on my ownimportant.
I knew when I went on my ownthat I wanted to coach, but
(19:20):
think I'm also a teacher atheart, like I love to learn and
I love to share, and so much ofwhat I do is that combination of
coaching teaching.
and people at the time, said tome, oh, you could join this
consulting agency and teachthese courses, or we all need
this kind of lessons.
And I'm like, no, i wanna teachmy own thing.
(19:41):
and I, started with, that kindof process.
The other piece to it was, whythe nonprofit sector and why
women?
and, certainly, I heard morethan once.
A week, you can make more moneycoaching in big business.
Like why are you sticking to thenonprofit sector or why are you
(20:03):
narrowing women, right?
there's more out there.
but in my heart of hearts, Iknow, and this is what you were
asking me earlier.
That's what I'm meant to do assupport women in the nonprofit
world.
I was there, I was challenged byit.
It does not need to be that way.
There is another way, and I'mgoing to give back to this.
(20:24):
and, so the prestige of,whatever I could have done isn't
as important as making thisdifference.
Paul (20:32):
It fills your cup.
I can see it from, just, fromthe conversation.
Yeah.
And this is a conversation Ihave a lot with people when they
talk about starting their ownpodcast as an example, right?
people, realise there's a valuein it.
And they conjure up, an idea fora podcast, which is brilliant,
but they forget to align it withwhat they, what makes them
(20:53):
happy.
Kathy (20:54):
yeah,
Paul (20:54):
And the reason most podcasts don't get to episode 10
is because they burn out.
half of it is because they don'thave a process and all the rest
of it.
That's fine.
Okay.
We can, that, we know that canbe taught, but your podcast
being aligned with what givesyou energy is what helps you get
past the episode 10.
And it's the same.
It's the same story, right?
Like you've got to be, if youare doing something that you
(21:17):
seriously enjoy, then it doesn'tfeel like work.
But that's also dangerous,right?
Kathy?
Kathy (21:24):
Dangerous because yes, for us.
so I have a podcast.
It is not a regular podcast thatI could probably benefit from
the work you do a hundredpercent.
it's an episode a hundred andsomething.
But I also blog and I'vepublished 2 books.
Thank you.
and so at some point, we haveto, and this is true, whether
(21:44):
you are in a leadership positionor a an entrepreneur, you have
to narrow and focus, what is itthat you wanna focus on and.
writing for me has been a reallybig part of my journey.
I love speaking and getting outthere.
gotta get help to do it.
like it's not something you cando on your own.
And so when I'm working withanyone.
(22:06):
Again, we're starting with whatare your values?
and if your value is to haveenergy left at the end of the
day for the rest of your life soyou can spend time with your
kids and read and take the dogfor a walk and go to the gym and
whatever else you wanna do, youcan't do it all in your nine to
five.
and so that's that settingboundaries and being clear and,
Yeah.
(22:26):
Where's your, what's, whatspeaks to your heart?
Do that.
that's what gives you energy.
I'm a Gallup certified strengthscoach, and when we're looking at
leading with your top strengths,they're energizing, they're
engaging, right?
they fill you up.
If you're trying to do the workfrom, the bottom of the, list,
it's draining.
Like it just is.
Paul (22:47):
to come back to the word character, you used the word
character before and I knowthat's a big part of your
business and your way.
You coach and I, I'd probablycall that, personal brand,
right?
how people think of you when youare not in the room.
it's extremely important.
And when, but whenever we saypersonal branding, everybody
rolls their eyes and think, youmean you've gotta get thousands
of views on your latest LinkedInpost?
(23:07):
it's what people think of youwhen you are not there, what,
doing the right thing.
And, but I wanted to ask,Values, ethics, morals.
Why are they so overlooked intoday's kind of leadership
landscape?
Why is it that they're not?
What we promote people by?
Kathy (23:25):
Yeah.
because we're a driven societythat wants to get stuff done and
achieve things, right?
we've created, KPIs and goalsand targets and all of this kind
of stuff.
the best leaders balance, taskand relationship, we have to get
stuff done.
We have to meet those goals.
We have to achieve the targets.
(23:47):
We have to get the stuff donethat the contract requires.
But it's people doing that work,right?
the people showing up every daythat make that work happen, and,
the best work happens inrelationship.
And I think because we've becomethis scarcity mindset, time
poverty, crisis driven sectorfor, the sector that I'm in, and
(24:09):
I know it's many sectors, it'snot just the nonprofit sector.
the push is to perform, to getdone.
And, we just keep trying to dothat and we've lost sight of
the, who's the, that's doing it.
and the who that's doing it.
Is, like you say, it's, whatpeople think.
So when I think of character, Ithink of the traits, integrity,
(24:32):
honesty, forgiveness, whateverit is that you value in, how you
show up.
The, there's a really trickypart though, as a leader where.
and there's truth to both sides.
I don't care what people thinkof me.
Who I am is who I am.
You either like me for thesetraits, you like me for my style
or you don't.
Truth to that.
and there's truth to, it'sincredibly important to worry
(24:55):
about what people think of youbecause your reputation matters.
and, we sometimes talk aboutlegacy.
oh, when I die, what are peoplegonna say about me?
like you just said.
What are people saying at thewater cooler about you?
What are people saying in thechat while you're having a
meeting?
That's your reputation.
That's your character.
and you do need to worry aboutthat.
(25:16):
And the more authentic you areand lead in, in a strong way
that aligns with who you are,people will see that and they'll
judge you for, they might say.
I don't always like the answersthey give me, but I appreciate
that they're consistently givingme answers in a, timely manner.
I don't like that they'reshowing up this way, but I know
(25:40):
what to expect because they'realways that way.
so I at least know that'sintegrity.
Maybe you don't like thatthey're.
I dunno if I could say this inyour podcast.
Maybe you don't like thatthey're an ass sometimes, but at
if you know they're an ass, thenat least you know what your
working with thats integrity.
Paul (25:54):
we're all willing to pay a price for consistency of some
sort.
I think we, a lot of us strivefor a certain amount of
consistency and then the rest,rest we're willing to take a bit
of a risk on.
And I guess personality andleadership's No.
different.
I wonder then you, you talk alsoa lot about self-doubt,
especially in the charity sectorwith regards to leaders.
(26:15):
Why, do you believe that there'sa confidence issue for charity
sector leaders?
Kathy (26:20):
I do work outside of the charity sector, and it's for a
lot of leaders.
A, big part of it is we movefrom frontline into leadership
without the training or support.
When I talk about confidence, itstarts with competence.
If you don't know how to play aguitar, you're not gonna be
confident playing a guitar untilyou learn and practice and
(26:41):
fumble and learn and practiceand do it again.
you gotta have the courage topractice though.
we move into leadership andsomebody says, you need to have
this many staff and you need tomake sure that you do their
performance reviews and you needto run these meetings.
But nobody tells us.
Okay, what do I do when astaff's not performing?
How do I balance that?
Or you and I were talkingearlier, what do I do when
(27:02):
people don't show up for shiftand I need bodies in the seats,
right?
Paul (27:05):
Yeah.
Kathy (27:06):
how do I navigate all of that, or my own emotions, or my
own energy or, the, need to beon everybody all the time and,
manage.
there's a term called emotionallabor.
So there's, you're carrying alot.
Nobody tells us how to do all ofthat, so we move into
(27:27):
leadership.
I remember when I moved intoleadership and my boss was
interviewing me for thisposition.
He said, what do you know aboutmanaging a budget?
I'm like.
I balanced my checkbook.
back in the day we used tobalance our checkbooks.
That was it, right?
I don't know.
The first thing about budgeting,I don't know anything about
Excel spreadsheets at that pointin time.
and so I had to take a course tofigure out how to do
(27:49):
spreadsheets, and so that's whywe're full of that.
Self-doubt is we move into thisposition because we've been good
at what we've been doing, andsuddenly we're like.
I don't get it I don't know howto do this.
And yet we don't wanna tellanybody.
Paul (28:03):
Yep.
Kathy (28:03):
stick our hand and say, I need help.
We don't wanna admit we're,struggling or failing.
And, even when we do, we'regiven tactical things, not that
inner growth work.
we're not having thoseconversations.
I don't remember ever having aconversation about legacy or
emotional control or any of thatkind of stuff when I was
leading, and that's what Ineeded to learn.
Paul (28:24):
Again.
Yeah.
It if I go back to supermarketworld where I was We'd get.
An area manager would come in,you'd be a new manager running
the store, and the area managerwould tell you exactly how to
fix that store in their view
Kathy (28:40):
Yeah,
Paul (28:40):
and the inexperienced manager would go out and do
exactly what the area managertold them to do, and the area
manager would come back in 2months and the store would be
burning down.
Everyone hated the storemanager.
The store manager hatedthemselves.
I don't understand what's goingwrong.
You told me to do all thesethings.
I've done all these things.
I did this jobs list and itstill didn't work.
(29:01):
And it took me probably about 7or 8 years of this experience
over and over again to realisethat you had to turn around to
the area manager and go, Iunderstand that you want
results.
that's fine.
But if I do things your way,this is gonna burn to the
ground.
So I'm assuming you don't wantthat.
So you go and do your job anddisappear to somebody else for a
while.
(29:22):
I'm gonna do what you pay me todo and fix this place.
In the meantime, some things aregonna burn because I need to
take time to do things right.
Some platforms are just gonna beleft to rot.
I'm sorry, but that's the way itis.
But I guarantee you, in twomonths time, you will see
results.
And we come back to it in twomonths time and despite their
frustrations that I hadn't donesome of the things that they
(29:42):
wanted done, things werestarting to move nicely.
And it was easy all of a sudden.
And I think it takes that you,you're right, you've gotta,
you've gotta be prepared tolearn.
You've gotta be prepared to askfor the help, but you've also
gotta be able to, if you are inthat position of that senior
leader, you've gotta be able tooffer that help and, that
(30:02):
construction.
And you're so right.
So I see this in sales a lot,right?
is the, best person who gets themost commission, who's on the
President's club get promotedinto a sales leader, newsflash
the skills that got them there.
Probably aren't even conduciveto being a good leader, let
alone does it teach themanything about being a leader.
And then we wonder why the restof the team is now missing their
(30:23):
targets because they've losttheir strongest salesperson
holding the team up, who nowcan't focus on their own targets
anymore.
'cause they're running aroundworried about everybody else's
targets and nobody's learninganything because we're all just
running around like headlesschickens and it's awful.
I see it time and time again.
I think the work that you aredoing is so important.
Kathy, what do you think mostpeople get wrong about that kind
(30:46):
of personal growth andleadership development?
Then?
what, could they be doing fromday one that would support the
sort of things that you helpleaders with?
'cause ideally we don't want'emto get to crisis mode.
We
Kathy (30:57):
Yeah.
Paul (30:58):
wanna help'em ahead of that time.
Kathy (31:01):
the biggest thing is the mindset shift, that this is
something that happens outsideof work to this is the work of
leadership, right?
I wanna take a course on growingmyself, or I wanna do some
journaling.
I have to fit that in outside ofwork.
when you shift that mindset andgo, this is what leadership is,
inner growth and, stuff, youstart to do some of that
(31:22):
journaling at work.
You start to take some of thecourses that are maybe more
mindset or personal growthcourses during your workday.
You start to do thatself-reflection as a part of
preparing for meetings.
so it becomes just who you areand how you show up versus
something that happens afterwork.
(31:44):
That's the biggest shift.
Paul (31:45):
But Kathy, how do we make time for that Because we haven't
got time as it is.
Kathy (31:49):
You don't make time.
you create that space.
and that's again, that shiftthat is more important than some
meetings that you have on yourcalendar or some of the work
that's required to be done.
And when you do it, it actuallymakes the rest of your work
easier, but you're not gonnaknow that till you try, right?
(32:11):
and so what I often talk topeople about is micro moments.
in inside my membership, I teacha course called, wellness.
At work because again, if you'rewaiting to fill you to ask me
about burnout later, if you'rewaiting to fill your cup back
up, at the end of the day,you're never gonna get it back
to full.
going to the gym once, two orthree times a week is not gonna
(32:33):
do that.
its those micro moments ofgetting up and stretching and,
making sure you're fed and goingto the bathroom and all those
kind of mini, what can you do ina minute or less?
the same is true forself-reflection, just grabbing a
piece of paper and saying, thisis the problem I have, and
answering like, that, right?
(32:53):
what do I do about it?
or like I say, two or threeminutes to just step back and
maybe it's while you're walkingto the bathroom to go.
I wanna show up in this meeting?
What's the impact I wanna have?
What, do I want this person tofeel as a result of our
conversation?
Those micro moments start thatripple.
So it's not that you have tocreate an hour, every day, 10
(33:16):
minutes at the beginning of yourday to go.
What's on my schedule and whatcan I shift, move, where do I
need to create some white spacebecause I don't have time to
process in between meetings.
Those kind of micro moments makean incredible difference.
Paul (33:31):
So I guess the proof will be in the pudding for the next
question that I'm gonna ask you,Kathy, is when people, so not
everybody will, I bet, try whatyou've said in terms of being
brave enough to make that timeand test it and, see what impact
it has over a period of time.
But.
Do people who have tried it evergo back to not bothering again?
Kathy (33:52):
Hundred percent.
Hundred percent.
Because they get busy andoverwhelmed and let it slide.
And with any habit, eatinghealthy, going to the gym,
things slide.
It is an ongoing commitment thatwe have to keep coming back to.
i encourage my students and myclients to do an annual sort of
(34:17):
plan, plan, and a weekly plan Ifyou have in your calendar.
Time every week to review.
thats where you course correct.
So you know, the plane goes fromhere to here, but really they're
doing these little things whenyou realise, We went from summer
to fall here in Canada andsummer, I'm outside.
(34:39):
I'm doing lots.
I'm very active.
Once fall hits, it's a littlebit cooler and I noticed my
10,000 steps wasn't happeningevery day.
And it's, and if I don't look atthat once a week to go, okay, it
happens most of the time.
But have I actually hit 70,000in a week?
That's my measure.
Paul (34:56):
Yep.
Kathy (34:56):
no i missed it.
2 weeks in a row, huh?
time to pull the trampoline outtoo, right?
Like it's those, it's, that'show you do that course
correcting and so When we,whenever we're doing something,
we have to make a commitment toit, but we have to build in
practices to make sure we're ontrack.
I'm coaching somebody, we'vebeen coaching for 6 months and
(35:18):
they're doing good and theystart to slide and they come
back to a call and they're like,Ugh.
And so we regroup.
that's why.
like my membership is a goodplace for people to like, have
that, you know how when you're,you go to the gym, you have that
sort of partner or you have awalking buddy, it's important to
(35:39):
have a place that kind of reignsyou in.
Sometimes it's your your spouse.
we're all gonna fall, right?
That's just human nature.
the, question is how long do youwanna feel icky for?
'cause
Paul (35:52):
Yeah.
it's entirely
Kathy (35:53):
up to you.
Paul (35:54):
Yeah, it's, kind of accountability, of, sorts.
Kathy (35:58):
Yeah.
Paul (35:59):
it's not, quite, but it's on the same lines.
So
Kathy (36:01):
a hundred percent.
Yeah.
Paul (36:03):
before we wrap things up then, Kathy, I've got one more
question to ask.
you've at this point, coached, Idunno, how many leaders,
countless, people.
What's.
So the ones that make lastingchange and impact, what do they
do differently in your opinion?
Kathy (36:20):
They do the self-reflective work a hundred
percent.
They, even the ones that hatejournaling journal in some way,
shape or form, they have a pieceof paper and they write on it or
do some form of self-reflectivework that's coaching.
That's, some of them havetherapists.
that's journaling, that's doingwritten exercises, taking
(36:43):
classes that help you go inside,but they do the self-reflective
work.
I have some incredible successstories and they will tell you
as much as like they resistedthe journaling.
that journaling was key andit's, not dear diary with a lock
on it.
it's like.
(37:04):
What's the value that I wannamake sure is heard in this
conversation?
what strengths can I bring intothis, challenging problem that
are gonna help me and my teamget through it?
That's the kind of journalingI'm talking about, or where I
got triggered today.
what happened?
Like I literally flew off thehandle.
What, value is getting walkedon?
(37:25):
What did I notice about, I hadnot ate and I was actually
hangry.
Paul (37:29):
Yeah,
Kathy (37:30):
what happened?
And that postmortem isincredibly important.
Paul (37:34):
I love that and I think that's a good clarification for
a lot of people out there,right?
Because you know you're exactly,you nailed it.
And much the same way thatpeople believe personal brand is
something you build on socialmedia journaling is something
that is a bit woo and it's verymuch dear diary Dear John.
Kathy (37:51):
Yeah.
Paul (37:52):
And I, think that's incredibly helpful for people
out there.
It's, maybe that's the startingpoint for somebody to go, huh?
Maybe, I could, maybe we coulddo that.
Kathy, it's been an absolutepleasure having you on the show
today.
I've thoroughly enjoyed workingthrough your story and sharing
that with the audience.
Is there anything you'd like toleave the audience with?
(38:13):
as a last few words?
well
Kathy (38:15):
thank you.
I enjoyed your questions'causeyou, whenever I get questions
like this, it does help me thinkand, process my own journey.
But then think about otherpeople's journeys.
just the decision is up toleaders if you want to change.
You don't have to wait forsomebody to give you training or
tell you what to do or how to doit.
(38:35):
It's a choice you get to make.
and, you get to make it in yourown little world, and you got
get to start making thosechanges internally that will
have that, that ripple outregardless of your situation.
Man's search for meaning ViktorFrankl.
he was, in the, the, holocaust,world.
(38:57):
And yet he said nobody can takeaway what's going on inside us.
and that's the truth.
We get to make those decisions.
Paul (39:04):
Kathy, it's been fabulous having you on the show today.
Thank you so much for your time,
Kathy (39:08):
Thank you so much.
Paul (39:10):
and thank you at home for watching and listening along.
Please do give us a subscribeand if you know somebody that
would make a fantastic guestjust like Kathy, please drop me
a line.
I'm always looking for newguests for the show this is your
podcast.
We do this for you, and I'll seeyou next week.
Bye-bye.
Ever felt like you're drowning in your leadership
role?
This episode is about findingyour footing again and building
a leadership style rooted inconfidence, clarity, and
purpose.
Kathy Archer spent years as anonprofit leader managing
complex programs and supportingvulnerable families.
Whilst secretly teaching on thebrink of burnout, her
(00:25):
transformation began when sherealised leadership wasn't about
doing more, but leading better.
Today, she's a leadershipdevelopment coach, helping women
in non-profit roles lead withclarity, confidence, and
strength.
Through her books podcast andtraining library, Kathy's on a
mission to empower overwhelmedleaders to reclaim their purpose
(00:45):
and make a real impact withoutlosing themselves in the
process.
Kathy, welcome to the show.
Kathy (00:51):
I am excited to be here.
Paul (00:53):
I apologise.
It's been some time since wefirst spoke.
It's took a bit ofreorganisation of our lives to
get you on here, but I'm so,pleased to have you here today.
I'm excited to share what yourstory, it's gonna be fun.
so I'm gonna, I'm gonna justdive straight in Kathy, and,
jump right back.
you.
spent over a decade supportingfamilies in managing programs,
(01:15):
leading nonprofit teams.
What point did you realisesomething wasn't quite right,
that you needed to changesomething?
Kathy (01:22):
When I hit rock bottom, I had been doing well.
I had been, it hit a low earlyin my career, and at that point
in time I realised I needed togo back and get the training.
Often we're moving intoleadership positions without
that training and support to dothe role.
So I went back to school, got mymanagement degree.
Did some work on myself to getto that point where I started to
(01:45):
grow and develop my team.
And we were really a succinct,strong team.
We were doing some incrediblethings as a result, we got this
large, big new contract thatleft me scrambling to keep up.
and so instantly overnight.
more responsibilities and moretravel and more staff and bigger
(02:06):
budget and all of this kind ofstuff.
And so I did what most of us do.
I doubled down.
I worked harder, I stayed later.
I, in dove deeper and I kindalost sense of what I was really
doing along that way.
And my staff Kept telling melike, you're not listening,
you're not helping, you're notthere for us.
(02:26):
You keep pushing us to do more.
And I'm like, come on, we gotmore to do.
And so it culminated in this,big mess where, you know, first
I'd got a performance wherestaff said, I lacked integrity.
talk about, that one hurt.
Paul (02:45):
Yeah.
And then the staff
Kathy (02:45):
filed grievance against me and so those two things left
me, like I say, hitting rockbottom.
I didn't know if I wanted to dothe job anymore.
I didn't know if I wanted tostay in the sector anymore.
I, just, what was the point?
I had tried so hard and this iswhat everybody gave me, And at
the time, my boss had been myboss for quite a while, so he
(03:08):
knew my strengths, he knew whatI was capable of, and he didn't
know what to do in thissituation.
I can't help you anymore, Kathy.
I don't know what's going on.
And so he was the one thatintroduced me to coaching.
so it was then that I was like,oh, I need to work on myself.
It's not just about theleadership and the, budgets and
the meetings.
It's about how am I showing upand that lack of integrity was
(03:31):
in that I'm here for you, butI'm not, work life balance is
important.
but i was so out of balance andI was pushing my staff to be out
of balance.
So absolutely lack of integritya real wake up call.
Paul (03:44):
That sounds, I know, incredibly painful, but
absolutely candid.
And I was gonna ask youoriginally what does burnout
look like?
But I think there's a betterversion of that question, which
is knowing what you know nowthat you probably didn't know at
the time.
What did burnout actually looklike?
Kathy (04:04):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Paul (04:05):
Because I think we learn a lot in the post experience and
when we, realised we've gone toofar, and then it's easy to piece
together the things that wewouldn't have known even at the
time were signs.
Kathy (04:17):
Yes, when we talk about burnout, it's a physical mental
exhaustion, right?
That's not what's happening forleaders often.
They show up together, right?
Like they're able to do theirjob.
They're, putting in 8, 10, 12hour days.
(04:37):
they're getting things done.
And so to, to the outsideobserver.
you're are on fire, right?
You're doing stuff.
It's the inner, I call it justthat ickiness, you know you are
not being true to yourself.
You're not being true to yourvalues, something's off.
At one point my son was in a caraccident, 16 years old, new to
(05:03):
driving the year.
not wearing a seatbelt, flipsthe car end over end and is
thrown out the back window.
miraculously he did not have abroken bone.
Fine for the most part, I waseight hours away at a meeting.
or at training actually.
(05:27):
And I was, phone off at 8.30'cause we're going into
training.
So at 10 o'clock I opened my,turned my phone on.
It's full of messages for myhusband.
and so I call him and he tellsme what happens.
He is he's okay, he just cameout of X-ray, like he's in a lot
of pain, but, stay.
So my husband tells me to stayat training of course.
(05:50):
I'm, learning and getting stuffdone.
Absolutely.
I'm gonna stay.
and so three days I finish upthe training.
On the third day I'm set totravel to the other side of the
country to go to managementmeetings.
I went instead of coming home.
Paul (06:08):
Wow.
Kathy (06:08):
So my husband, other son, took care of my accident.
talk Mismatch of values.
Family's incredibly important tome, right?
And yet I, not once, but twice Iput work over my family and so
that mismatch of values was thatsign to me, that icking, I.
(06:30):
could feel the tension, and yetI just powered through, right?
This is important.
My husband's got it,everything's fine.
And it's that mismatch of valuesthat is that, warning sign that
you're leading to burnout.
And that was that personalexample.
But there was many work examplestoo, where I just kept the ick
and just pushing through.
Paul (06:50):
wow.
I can't imagine what, and, what,how did your husband.
Was your husband still acceptingof that kind of behaviour even
after the fact?
'cause I bet there's a lot ofpeople out there who would tell
their, spouse, their partner to,yeah.
Yeah.
You steer, but then secretly onthe inside were like, yeah,
you'll come home.
You've gotta come home.
but.
Kathy (07:09):
Yeah.
He, to his credit, he's neverdone.
We've had millions ofconversations.
My son has said, mom, it's fine.
I was like, hi.
I couldn't tell who was there ornot there.
we've had lots of conversationsabout it since.
but I think, on the flip side,when I decided it was time leave
that position and start out onmy own in a business, my husband
(07:30):
wanted me to stay and notbecause.
he didn't believe in me ordidn't think what I was saying I
was wanted to do was important.
But there's also an element of,oh, what's the word?
Prestige.
I was, I could have, kept movingup the ladder, making good
money, having a good title, agood position.
And so the role broughtsomething to us as a family, as,
(07:55):
oh, Kathy's leader.
and so he.
He and I kept looking at that,this is what you gotta do.
You have the opportunity, likeyou keep climbing the ladder
and, at some point I was like,this just doesn't align with me.
It doesn't align with who I am.
My values are constantly beingsquashed.
Something's completely off rightnow.
(08:19):
I could have stayed in the roleand shifted things perhaps, but
at some point I recognised thatthe sector I'm in is a really
crisis driven, scarcity mindset,panic, all the time, sector.
And if we're going to changethat, it's probably gonna take
more than just me Hey, I'msetting some boundaries.
(08:41):
It's gonna take a lot of ussaying those kinds of things.
And so I knew that if I startedworking with leaders
individually, that I wouldprobably have a bigger ripple
than just me pushing back alone.
Paul (08:51):
So you got to a point where you had a coach yourself.
You brought a leadership coachin to work with you.
What was that first sessionlike?
Kathy (09:01):
it's lunchtime.
My door is closed.
I book it at lunch because Ihope around, it's lunchtime, the
door is closed, but of I.
of course people are probablystill in the office.
So I'm hunched over my desk,whispering into the phone with
tears running down my face.
I'm telling the story.
Nobody's cares about me,nobody's listening, nobody's
(09:21):
helping.
Everybody's out to get me.
and for the first time, somebodyjust listened, right?
They didn't try and fix it.
They didn't tell me I was wrong.
They didn't tell me what to do.
They just listened and acceptedthe story and then they started
asking me questions about myexperience of what I was going
through, right?
(09:42):
and That experience for me.
Somebody said it to me justyesterday in a coaching call.
She said, you listen, that's it.
Like somebody to listen to mystory.
and so for me that was the firstpart.
The second part was some of theexercises he had me do, like
identifying my values and I'dnever.
(10:03):
sure, maybe I'd circled a coupleat one point, but I'd never sat
down to really look at thosevalues.
And so when I looked at thatvalue of family and how far off
I was or wellbeing, it was soimportant to me.
And yet I certainly wasn't doingthat.
Those were those wake up calls,not just for me, but.
(10:23):
When I flipped it, I looked atwhat I was expecting of my
staff.
If I value those things,shouldn't I then be giving those
to my staff?
and so it was the ability for meto step back and see things from
a different lens.
Paul (11:11):
Fascinating how many guests that we have on the com
on the podcast that, that have asimilar story.
Not the same, but similar andsimilar experiences and that,
that kind of crucible that we'veall gone through to get where we
are right now.
And I, think back to, we had theFantastic Sky Jarret on the
show, a few weeks back And, shejust leaned into the camera like
(11:34):
this.
She just leaned in.
She went, but don't telleveryone there's another way.
and I love that.
I love that sticks with me somuch because I could just see
her doing it.
I totally unexpected and I waslike, wow.
Because, we don't need to shoutabout it.
Those of us who've been throughthat, you know what, and I went
through very similar, I probablywouldn't have made the same
choice, but neither was I asseniors, I think that, I think
(11:57):
there's something in that,right?
Like the more senior you become,the more privileged your
position.
The more pressure there is toput business first in front of
the family and things like that.
But, I remember being in retailand my staff ringing me up to
say that they were ill andprobably weren't ill.
They were probably just reallystressed out or here at their
(12:18):
job and there's me on the phonegoing, but when will you be
back?
And I'm thinking to myself, isthis the person I want to be?
Is this who I am?
Like this is horrible.
I don't wanna ask that question.
You go and look after yourselfand come back when you can, but
please send me someone, you canhelp me today.
(12:40):
but, so I guess at this pointthen, you've gone through
various different roles.
you've found yourself working inthe industry that you do.
What's the common thread througheverything that you've done to
this point where you, gotinvolved with your coach?
What is it that kind of.
Is that the guiding why, I guessthat sits in the middle of all
(13:05):
of the rules that you've held?
Because that's where we all getto where we want to go, Right.
That's the one thing.
Kathy (13:10):
Yeah.
I know that if I grow myself behealthy, happy, competent,
confident, everyone around meis, and I can do that for other
people.
The key to that isself-reflection.
self-reflection is the key toeverything.
And if we're not.
Doing that inner not navalgazing, but just who am I?
(13:34):
What's important to me?
What are my morals, VA values,ethics, what hills am I gonna
die on?
how do I wanna show up?
What's the impact I wanna have?
If we're not doing that work, wedo become very self-centered
and, just, focus on tick, tick.
Gotta get the meetings done and,get through all of this.
It's that inner growth that,allows us to be our best.
(13:57):
When I look at the people I'mworking with or potentially
gonna work with it's thatquestion of have you looked
inside?
And how often do you lookinside?
I was talking with somebodyyesterday, and she was talking
about, I, I make space'cause I'malways pushing my people to
create space to be moreintentional, right?
I make space to get my calendarready and plan my week and all
(14:18):
this kind of stuff.
And I, said, I get that.
But do you make time to askyourself, how do I wanna show up
in this meeting?
What's the impact I want tohave?
How do I want these people towalk out of this meeting
feeling?
Do you make space for that?
Even like a minute before you gointo that meeting?
Because that's, always talkingabout character, right?
That's the character, yourreputation, that's what people
(14:40):
think of you, not, the agendaitems and you know how long the
meeting was.
But who showed up to run thatThat's the impact.
And self-reflection is key tothat.
Paul (14:52):
do you think that there was a point in time before you
got involved in coaching thatperhaps you were, i guess
swapping that success for thethings that.
you really enjoyed doing?
Like it kind of it, it tickedthe box in terms of dopamine and
fulfillment and, but actuallyyou were kind of conning
yourself, right?
Kathy (15:11):
yeah.
there was, pre kind ofleadership and then when I found
myself again, I can, there was aperiod of time where one of my
top strengths is learner.
I love to read, my place isstacked with books all the time.
I didn't read for years, likenot a book.
(15:33):
and the, or the learning I wasdoing was so focused on, we
needed to learn at that moment.
It wasn't filling my soul.
I stopped doing crafts, like Iloved to, to crochet and, paint
and do that kind of stuff.
Gardening.
And yeah, there was that periodwhere I just didn't have the
energy or the focus or the timeor the desire to do the things
(15:55):
that.
Made me light up.
and, so yeah, the, hits I wasgetting was got that task done,
got that meeting done, hiredsomebody, got the office set up
right.
and yeah, it just, it wasn't thesame.
Paul (16:09):
I love that.
I love that and I think there'sa lot to learn for a lot of
people from that.
And it, it resonates so muchbecause, we, were talking before
the episode started on Monday.
I was at the spa day for mywife's 40th birthday, and we
were sat at the spa and it wasthe second part of the
conversation that I started whenmy son was in the house the
night before and he's 7 almost 8And, we were talking about how I
(16:32):
love reading Stephen King books.
I've got all of the books, allof them.
And I haven't read Stephen King,I haven't read anything.
In years because the kids camefirst.
Kids came first, then I wasworking and by the time I've
done all of that, I'm tired.
I just, wanna relax.
I haven't got time to read.
And actually, and I was I wasputting it that I didn't want to
(16:53):
not speak to my wife because Iwas reading a book.
It feels rude, right?
I, should be spending the timetogether watching the TV not
speaking to each other.
Kathy (17:02):
Yeah.
Paul (17:02):
And on a kind of, and when I said that to my son, I there
was a moment that when my, thatwas in my head, it was like,
really?
So you're gonna pretend to watchthe TV when actually you're just
gonna stare at your phone, butyou're gonna not read your book
because you wanna be able totalk to your wife, which you're
not doing anywhere.
And we were sat the spa and Iwent, I'm gonna start reading
again.
And she looked at me and shesmiled and I was like, Yeah.
(17:24):
I'm gonna start reading.
not every night, but some nightsI'm gonna have a book down there
and I'm gonna start reading.
Rather than watching the tv, youcan have the TV on and you can
watch it or you can play withyour phone if that's what you
wanna do.
I'm gonna read because I haven'tdone it for ages and I actually
really miss reading Stephen Kingand She was just like, I ex, I
dunno what I expected.
A kind of part of me thinks Iwould you like, she's not gonna
(17:48):
be angry with that.
but part of me half expected it.
Yeah.
Like, why haven't I been doingit before now?
So that just, that, thatconversation really brings that
to life for me.
So let's, go back to yourjourney then.
So you've, gotten involved witha coach yourself.
You're starting to realise allthese things are not aligned
(18:08):
with who you are.
How do we get from there to thepoint where you realise that
coaching is the thing that youwant to align on and, become?
Kathy (18:16):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I think I knew the minute I hadmy first coaching call, it was
like, oh my God, this is it.
i think I've always had a.
I use the word spiritual verylightly.
Just that, that desire to figurepeople out and support that
inner growth.
And so when I got into coaching,I was like, oh, this isn't
(18:37):
therapy.
It's not some woo kind of thing.
This has got some meat to it.
And so I had actually asked myboss at that time, if I could
take the training, and he's no,we can't afford it.
And so then 2 years later,probably 2 years later, there
was a bursary.
And so I applied for thebursary.
And so that's how I got the,money for the first bit of coach
(19:00):
training that I did.
From there, I, did the rest onmy own.
and at that point in time, Iprobably could have stayed
in-house and coached, but itwasn't offered to me and I
didn't ask for it.
and probably that's.
Best because going out on my ownimportant.
I knew when I went on my ownthat I wanted to coach, but
(19:20):
think I'm also a teacher atheart, like I love to learn and
I love to share, and so much ofwhat I do is that combination of
coaching teaching.
and people at the time, said tome, oh, you could join this
consulting agency and teachthese courses, or we all need
this kind of lessons.
And I'm like, no, i wanna teachmy own thing.
(19:41):
and I, started with, that kindof process.
The other piece to it was, whythe nonprofit sector and why
women?
and, certainly, I heard morethan once.
A week, you can make more moneycoaching in big business.
Like why are you sticking to thenonprofit sector or why are you
(20:03):
narrowing women, right?
there's more out there.
but in my heart of hearts, Iknow, and this is what you were
asking me earlier.
That's what I'm meant to do assupport women in the nonprofit
world.
I was there, I was challenged byit.
It does not need to be that way.
There is another way, and I'mgoing to give back to this.
(20:24):
and, so the prestige of,whatever I could have done isn't
as important as making thisdifference.
Paul (20:32):
It fills your cup.
I can see it from, just, fromthe conversation.
Yeah.
And this is a conversation Ihave a lot with people when they
talk about starting their ownpodcast as an example, right?
people, realise there's a valuein it.
And they conjure up, an idea fora podcast, which is brilliant,
but they forget to align it withwhat they, what makes them
(20:53):
happy.
Kathy (20:54):
yeah,
Paul (20:54):
And the reason most podcasts don't get to episode 10
is because they burn out.
half of it is because they don'thave a process and all the rest
of it.
That's fine.
Okay.
We can, that, we know that canbe taught, but your podcast
being aligned with what givesyou energy is what helps you get
past the episode 10.
And it's the same.
It's the same story, right?
Like you've got to be, if youare doing something that you
(21:17):
seriously enjoy, then it doesn'tfeel like work.
But that's also dangerous,right?
Kathy?
Kathy (21:24):
Dangerous because yes, for us.
so I have a podcast.
It is not a regular podcast thatI could probably benefit from
the work you do a hundredpercent.
it's an episode a hundred andsomething.
But I also blog and I'vepublished 2 books.
Thank you.
and so at some point, we haveto, and this is true, whether
(21:44):
you are in a leadership positionor a an entrepreneur, you have
to narrow and focus, what is itthat you wanna focus on and.
writing for me has been a reallybig part of my journey.
I love speaking and getting outthere.
gotta get help to do it.
like it's not something you cando on your own.
And so when I'm working withanyone.
(22:06):
Again, we're starting with whatare your values?
and if your value is to haveenergy left at the end of the
day for the rest of your life soyou can spend time with your
kids and read and take the dogfor a walk and go to the gym and
whatever else you wanna do, youcan't do it all in your nine to
five.
and so that's that settingboundaries and being clear and,
Yeah.
(22:26):
Where's your, what's, whatspeaks to your heart?
Do that.
that's what gives you energy.
I'm a Gallup certified strengthscoach, and when we're looking at
leading with your top strengths,they're energizing, they're
engaging, right?
they fill you up.
If you're trying to do the workfrom, the bottom of the, list,
it's draining.
Like it just is.
Paul (22:47):
to come back to the word character, you used the word
character before and I knowthat's a big part of your
business and your way.
You coach and I, I'd probablycall that, personal brand,
right?
how people think of you when youare not in the room.
it's extremely important.
And when, but whenever we saypersonal branding, everybody
rolls their eyes and think, youmean you've gotta get thousands
of views on your latest LinkedInpost?
(23:07):
it's what people think of youwhen you are not there, what,
doing the right thing.
And, but I wanted to ask,Values, ethics, morals.
Why are they so overlooked intoday's kind of leadership
landscape?
Why is it that they're not?
What we promote people by?
Kathy (23:25):
Yeah.
because we're a driven societythat wants to get stuff done and
achieve things, right?
we've created, KPIs and goalsand targets and all of this kind
of stuff.
the best leaders balance, taskand relationship, we have to get
stuff done.
We have to meet those goals.
We have to achieve the targets.
(23:47):
We have to get the stuff donethat the contract requires.
But it's people doing that work,right?
the people showing up every daythat make that work happen, and,
the best work happens inrelationship.
And I think because we've becomethis scarcity mindset, time
poverty, crisis driven sectorfor, the sector that I'm in, and
(24:09):
I know it's many sectors, it'snot just the nonprofit sector.
the push is to perform, to getdone.
And, we just keep trying to dothat and we've lost sight of
the, who's the, that's doing it.
and the who that's doing it.
Is, like you say, it's, whatpeople think.
So when I think of character, Ithink of the traits, integrity,
(24:32):
honesty, forgiveness, whateverit is that you value in, how you
show up.
The, there's a really trickypart though, as a leader where.
and there's truth to both sides.
I don't care what people thinkof me.
Who I am is who I am.
You either like me for thesetraits, you like me for my style
or you don't.
Truth to that.
and there's truth to, it'sincredibly important to worry
(24:55):
about what people think of youbecause your reputation matters.
and, we sometimes talk aboutlegacy.
oh, when I die, what are peoplegonna say about me?
like you just said.
What are people saying at thewater cooler about you?
What are people saying in thechat while you're having a
meeting?
That's your reputation.
That's your character.
and you do need to worry aboutthat.
(25:16):
And the more authentic you areand lead in, in a strong way
that aligns with who you are,people will see that and they'll
judge you for, they might say.
I don't always like the answersthey give me, but I appreciate
that they're consistently givingme answers in a, timely manner.
I don't like that they'reshowing up this way, but I know
(25:40):
what to expect because they'realways that way.
so I at least know that'sintegrity.
Maybe you don't like thatthey're.
I dunno if I could say this inyour podcast.
Maybe you don't like thatthey're an ass sometimes, but at
if you know they're an ass, thenat least you know what your
working with thats integrity.
Paul (25:54):
we're all willing to pay a price for consistency of some
sort.
I think we, a lot of us strivefor a certain amount of
consistency and then the rest,rest we're willing to take a bit
of a risk on.
And I guess personality andleadership's No.
different.
I wonder then you, you talk alsoa lot about self-doubt,
especially in the charity sectorwith regards to leaders.
(26:15):
Why, do you believe that there'sa confidence issue for charity
sector leaders?
Kathy (26:20):
I do work outside of the charity sector, and it's for a
lot of leaders.
A, big part of it is we movefrom frontline into leadership
without the training or support.
When I talk about confidence, itstarts with competence.
If you don't know how to play aguitar, you're not gonna be
confident playing a guitar untilyou learn and practice and
(26:41):
fumble and learn and practiceand do it again.
you gotta have the courage topractice though.
we move into leadership andsomebody says, you need to have
this many staff and you need tomake sure that you do their
performance reviews and you needto run these meetings.
But nobody tells us.
Okay, what do I do when astaff's not performing?
How do I balance that?
Or you and I were talkingearlier, what do I do when
(27:02):
people don't show up for shiftand I need bodies in the seats,
right?
Paul (27:05):
Yeah.
Kathy (27:06):
how do I navigate all of that, or my own emotions, or my
own energy or, the, need to beon everybody all the time and,
manage.
there's a term called emotionallabor.
So there's, you're carrying alot.
Nobody tells us how to do all ofthat, so we move into
(27:27):
leadership.
I remember when I moved intoleadership and my boss was
interviewing me for thisposition.
He said, what do you know aboutmanaging a budget?
I'm like.
I balanced my checkbook.
back in the day we used tobalance our checkbooks.
That was it, right?
I don't know.
The first thing about budgeting,I don't know anything about
Excel spreadsheets at that pointin time.
and so I had to take a course tofigure out how to do
(27:49):
spreadsheets, and so that's whywe're full of that.
Self-doubt is we move into thisposition because we've been good
at what we've been doing, andsuddenly we're like.
I don't get it I don't know howto do this.
And yet we don't wanna tellanybody.
Paul (28:03):
Yep.
Kathy (28:03):
stick our hand and say, I need help.
We don't wanna admit we're,struggling or failing.
And, even when we do, we'regiven tactical things, not that
inner growth work.
we're not having thoseconversations.
I don't remember ever having aconversation about legacy or
emotional control or any of thatkind of stuff when I was
leading, and that's what Ineeded to learn.
Paul (28:24):
Again.
Yeah.
It if I go back to supermarketworld where I was We'd get.
An area manager would come in,you'd be a new manager running
the store, and the area managerwould tell you exactly how to
fix that store in their view
Kathy (28:40):
Yeah,
Paul (28:40):
and the inexperienced manager would go out and do
exactly what the area managertold them to do, and the area
manager would come back in 2months and the store would be
burning down.
Everyone hated the storemanager.
The store manager hatedthemselves.
I don't understand what's goingwrong.
You told me to do all thesethings.
I've done all these things.
I did this jobs list and itstill didn't work.
(29:01):
And it took me probably about 7or 8 years of this experience
over and over again to realisethat you had to turn around to
the area manager and go, Iunderstand that you want
results.
that's fine.
But if I do things your way,this is gonna burn to the
ground.
So I'm assuming you don't wantthat.
So you go and do your job anddisappear to somebody else for a
while.
(29:22):
I'm gonna do what you pay me todo and fix this place.
In the meantime, some things aregonna burn because I need to
take time to do things right.
Some platforms are just gonna beleft to rot.
I'm sorry, but that's the way itis.
But I guarantee you, in twomonths time, you will see
results.
And we come back to it in twomonths time and despite their
frustrations that I hadn't donesome of the things that they
(29:42):
wanted done, things werestarting to move nicely.
And it was easy all of a sudden.
And I think it takes that you,you're right, you've gotta,
you've gotta be prepared tolearn.
You've gotta be prepared to askfor the help, but you've also
gotta be able to, if you are inthat position of that senior
leader, you've gotta be able tooffer that help and, that
(30:02):
construction.
And you're so right.
So I see this in sales a lot,right?
is the, best person who gets themost commission, who's on the
President's club get promotedinto a sales leader, newsflash
the skills that got them there.
Probably aren't even conduciveto being a good leader, let
alone does it teach themanything about being a leader.
And then we wonder why the restof the team is now missing their
(30:23):
targets because they've losttheir strongest salesperson
holding the team up, who nowcan't focus on their own targets
anymore.
'cause they're running aroundworried about everybody else's
targets and nobody's learninganything because we're all just
running around like headlesschickens and it's awful.
I see it time and time again.
I think the work that you aredoing is so important.
Kathy, what do you think mostpeople get wrong about that kind
(30:46):
of personal growth andleadership development?
Then?
what, could they be doing fromday one that would support the
sort of things that you helpleaders with?
'cause ideally we don't want'emto get to crisis mode.
We
Kathy (30:57):
Yeah.
Paul (30:58):
wanna help'em ahead of that time.
Kathy (31:01):
the biggest thing is the mindset shift, that this is
something that happens outsideof work to this is the work of
leadership, right?
I wanna take a course on growingmyself, or I wanna do some
journaling.
I have to fit that in outside ofwork.
when you shift that mindset andgo, this is what leadership is,
inner growth and, stuff, youstart to do some of that
(31:22):
journaling at work.
You start to take some of thecourses that are maybe more
mindset or personal growthcourses during your workday.
You start to do thatself-reflection as a part of
preparing for meetings.
so it becomes just who you areand how you show up versus
something that happens afterwork.
(31:44):
That's the biggest shift.
Paul (31:45):
But Kathy, how do we make time for that Because we haven't
got time as it is.
Kathy (31:49):
You don't make time.
you create that space.
and that's again, that shiftthat is more important than some
meetings that you have on yourcalendar or some of the work
that's required to be done.
And when you do it, it actuallymakes the rest of your work
easier, but you're not gonnaknow that till you try, right?
(32:11):
and so what I often talk topeople about is micro moments.
in inside my membership, I teacha course called, wellness.
At work because again, if you'rewaiting to fill you to ask me
about burnout later, if you'rewaiting to fill your cup back
up, at the end of the day,you're never gonna get it back
to full.
going to the gym once, two orthree times a week is not gonna
(32:33):
do that.
its those micro moments ofgetting up and stretching and,
making sure you're fed and goingto the bathroom and all those
kind of mini, what can you do ina minute or less?
the same is true forself-reflection, just grabbing a
piece of paper and saying, thisis the problem I have, and
answering like, that, right?
(32:53):
what do I do about it?
or like I say, two or threeminutes to just step back and
maybe it's while you're walkingto the bathroom to go.
I wanna show up in this meeting?
What's the impact I wanna have?
What, do I want this person tofeel as a result of our
conversation?
Those micro moments start thatripple.
So it's not that you have tocreate an hour, every day, 10
(33:16):
minutes at the beginning of yourday to go.
What's on my schedule and whatcan I shift, move, where do I
need to create some white spacebecause I don't have time to
process in between meetings.
Those kind of micro moments makean incredible difference.
Paul (33:31):
So I guess the proof will be in the pudding for the next
question that I'm gonna ask you,Kathy, is when people, so not
everybody will, I bet, try whatyou've said in terms of being
brave enough to make that timeand test it and, see what impact
it has over a period of time.
But.
Do people who have tried it evergo back to not bothering again?
Kathy (33:52):
Hundred percent.
Hundred percent.
Because they get busy andoverwhelmed and let it slide.
And with any habit, eatinghealthy, going to the gym,
things slide.
It is an ongoing commitment thatwe have to keep coming back to.
i encourage my students and myclients to do an annual sort of
(34:17):
plan, plan, and a weekly plan Ifyou have in your calendar.
Time every week to review.
thats where you course correct.
So you know, the plane goes fromhere to here, but really they're
doing these little things whenyou realise, We went from summer
to fall here in Canada andsummer, I'm outside.
(34:39):
I'm doing lots.
I'm very active.
Once fall hits, it's a littlebit cooler and I noticed my
10,000 steps wasn't happeningevery day.
And it's, and if I don't look atthat once a week to go, okay, it
happens most of the time.
But have I actually hit 70,000in a week?
That's my measure.
Paul (34:56):
Yep.
Kathy (34:56):
no i missed it.
2 weeks in a row, huh?
time to pull the trampoline outtoo, right?
Like it's those, it's, that'show you do that course
correcting and so When we,whenever we're doing something,
we have to make a commitment toit, but we have to build in
practices to make sure we're ontrack.
I'm coaching somebody, we'vebeen coaching for 6 months and
(35:18):
they're doing good and theystart to slide and they come
back to a call and they're like,Ugh.
And so we regroup.
that's why.
like my membership is a goodplace for people to like, have
that, you know how when you're,you go to the gym, you have that
sort of partner or you have awalking buddy, it's important to
(35:39):
have a place that kind of reignsyou in.
Sometimes it's your your spouse.
we're all gonna fall, right?
That's just human nature.
the, question is how long do youwanna feel icky for?
'cause
Paul (35:52):
Yeah.
it's entirely
Kathy (35:53):
up to you.
Paul (35:54):
Yeah, it's, kind of accountability, of, sorts.
Kathy (35:58):
Yeah.
Paul (35:59):
it's not, quite, but it's on the same lines.
So
Kathy (36:01):
a hundred percent.
Yeah.
Paul (36:03):
before we wrap things up then, Kathy, I've got one more
question to ask.
you've at this point, coached, Idunno, how many leaders,
countless, people.
What's.
So the ones that make lastingchange and impact, what do they
do differently in your opinion?
Kathy (36:20):
They do the self-reflective work a hundred
percent.
They, even the ones that hatejournaling journal in some way,
shape or form, they have a pieceof paper and they write on it or
do some form of self-reflectivework that's coaching.
That's, some of them havetherapists.
that's journaling, that's doingwritten exercises, taking
(36:43):
classes that help you go inside,but they do the self-reflective
work.
I have some incredible successstories and they will tell you
as much as like they resistedthe journaling.
that journaling was key andit's, not dear diary with a lock
on it.
it's like.
(37:04):
What's the value that I wannamake sure is heard in this
conversation?
what strengths can I bring intothis, challenging problem that
are gonna help me and my teamget through it?
That's the kind of journalingI'm talking about, or where I
got triggered today.
what happened?
Like I literally flew off thehandle.
What, value is getting walkedon?
(37:25):
What did I notice about, I hadnot ate and I was actually
hangry.
Paul (37:29):
Yeah,
Kathy (37:30):
what happened?
And that postmortem isincredibly important.
Paul (37:34):
I love that and I think that's a good clarification for
a lot of people out there,right?
Because you know you're exactly,you nailed it.
And much the same way thatpeople believe personal brand is
something you build on socialmedia journaling is something
that is a bit woo and it's verymuch dear diary Dear John.
Kathy (37:51):
Yeah.
Paul (37:52):
And I, think that's incredibly helpful for people
out there.
It's, maybe that's the startingpoint for somebody to go, huh?
Maybe, I could, maybe we coulddo that.
Kathy, it's been an absolutepleasure having you on the show
today.
I've thoroughly enjoyed workingthrough your story and sharing
that with the audience.
Is there anything you'd like toleave the audience with?
(38:13):
as a last few words?
well
Kathy (38:15):
thank you.
I enjoyed your questions'causeyou, whenever I get questions
like this, it does help me thinkand, process my own journey.
But then think about otherpeople's journeys.
just the decision is up toleaders if you want to change.
You don't have to wait forsomebody to give you training or
tell you what to do or how to doit.
(38:35):
It's a choice you get to make.
and, you get to make it in yourown little world, and you got
get to start making thosechanges internally that will
have that, that ripple outregardless of your situation.
Man's search for meaning ViktorFrankl.
he was, in the, the, holocaust,world.
(38:57):
And yet he said nobody can takeaway what's going on inside us.
and that's the truth.
We get to make those decisions.
Paul (39:04):
Kathy, it's been fabulous having you on the show today.
Thank you so much for your time,
Kathy (39:08):
Thank you so much.
Paul (39:10):
and thank you at home for watching and listening along.
Please do give us a subscribeand if you know somebody that
would make a fantastic guestjust like Kathy, please drop me
a line.
I'm always looking for newguests for the show this is your
podcast.
We do this for you, and I'll seeyou next week.
Bye-bye.
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