October 14, 2025 • 34 mins
What if the real love story isn’t candlelight and grand gestures, but calendars, clarity, and courage under pressure? I sit down with Kass and Mike Lazerow—longtime partners in life and business—to unpack how they navigated Web 1.0 startups, gut-punch setbacks, and life-changing, $345 million-dollar exits while raising three kids and staying on the same team. Their answers aren’t glossy; they’re practical, repeatable, and surprisingly tender.
We explore how role clarity at home mirrors smart org design at work: defined lanes reduce friction and protect respect. Mike shares why he stopped “selling” inconvenient choices and started owning the impact; Kass explains the power of saying, “No, I’m not happy you’re going”—and not forcing a bow on hard truths. Together they map out their three core cheat codes: share the load through good and bad, invest in the relationship with consistent date nights and short getaways, and build teamwork through radical transparency, fair fights, and fast repair. We also dive into the “pivot” mindset: do more of what works, less of what doesn’t and how boredom and novelty can coexist to keep a marriage alive.
From parenting toddlers to guiding adult kids, from almost losing it all to scaling Buddy Media to a massive exit, Kass and Mike show how trust, weekly meetings, and a shared vision can carry a couple through chaos. If you’ve ever wondered how to blend ambition with intimacy, or how to reset when resentment creeps in, this conversation gives you a clear playbook: define your lanes, tell the truth, meet weekly, repair quickly, and keep dating.
You can reach them at info@kassandmike.com or DM them on social. Buy Shoveling Sh*t on Amazon and please review if you like it.
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Episode Transcript
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SPEAKER_02 (00:00):
Hello and welcome to the Secrets of Happily Ever
After podcast.
I'm your host, Monica Tanner,and I'm really, really excited
about our guest today.
They are Mike and Cass Lazaro,the New York Times bestselling
authors of the book ShovelingShit.
And I am so, so, so excited toget into this topic with them
because they have been wildlysuccessful in business, and
(00:24):
they've also been through a lotof ups and downs.
And I am so excited to explorethe relational relationship
parts of all of this.
Of course, this podcast iscalled Secrets of Happily Ever
After.
So I want to just really diginto how did you guys stay
connected and on the same pageand moving in the same direction
(00:45):
during all of this chaos?
So your book has a bold title,Shoveling Shit.
So I am wondering why you choseto frame your entrepreneurship
journey as a love story as well.
Mikey, start.
SPEAKER_00 (01:00):
Yes.
So Cass and I've been togetherfor almost 30 years, and a
consistent part of ourrelationship has been business.
We actually launched a businessbefore we got married, which we
would not recommend as thedefault way that businesses
should be started, but it feltright to us.
We had a shared passion forinnovation at this point many,
(01:24):
many years ago, internet and web1.0.
And very quickly it becameapparent that we were going to
have this kind of imbalancedlife of the entrepreneur where
we wanted to grow companies andmake money and you know fulfill
that side of our life.
But we also wanted a family andwe had kind of a vision for our
(01:45):
life.
And so we've had three kids.
We kind of had kids around eachof the kind of company starting
or key moments in the company.
And I think the consistent partof our relationship is any
co-founder relationship at workand any marriage, it's just
(02:05):
about communication.
And it's about kind of fightingfairly, not being
passive-aggressive, beingaggressive, um, respecting the
other person for who they areand not giving away who you are.
And I think because of theshared life, we've been able to
play to our strengths and reallymake up for some of the
(02:28):
weaknesses personally andprofessionally that each of us
has.
SPEAKER_01 (02:54):
Yeah, definitely.
And I think, you know, we we meteach other, we've always known
each other because I um kind ofgrew up in his house and as
friends with his older brother.
Um, his older brother and I arethe same age, and Mike's a
little younger.
And, you know, so we had a lotin in common, right?
We had the same kind of moralsand values growing up around the
(03:17):
same people.
Went to, I went to the all-girlsschool, he went to the all-boys'
school.
But when we connected later onin life, we both had this shared
interest of, you know, Web 1.0,the internet.
Like, what was this?
This is back in like 1996.
And from that moment on, I thinkwe both saw each other's
(03:37):
expertise and excitement, andthen respected each other's
expertise, which I think was abig deal, and actually laid the
foundation for things going wellat home, if that makes sense.
Because we were apart for a yearand then we moved in together,
and we would rely on each otherin our separate jobs to help
(04:00):
each other, right?
And when we started companiestogether, we always had a date
night.
It wasn't we did as much as wecould to not talk about work,
and it was about nurturing whatwe both like were excited about.
And then once you throw kidsinto it, it's a whole different
wrench.
(04:21):
And I think if I think that'sbeen the hardest part for me is
like two people parentingdifferent humans.
That's really hard, really,really hard.
And um we got through it.
We could we're still doing it,but we've gotten through the
hard times, or at least a lot ofhard times.
SPEAKER_02 (04:44):
Yeah, you you have you're parenting all adult
children.
I have yeah, so I'm half andhalf.
I've got two adult children andtwo children at home, so it's
different.
Yeah, parenting adult children.
It changes the game.
SPEAKER_01 (04:56):
Yeah.
And bigger kids, biggerproblems, less time to really
make an impact as a parent.
But I think, um, I think wereally laid the foundation for
our marriage because when youwork with someone, you know,
it's business.
You you have to have thickerskin.
(05:18):
You, you, you know, things arenot going to be as sugar coated.
This is work.
And that really helped in ourother parts of life, our our
personal parts.
SPEAKER_02 (05:27):
Yeah.
So in your book, you talk aboutrole clarity in your business.
And so, like staying, which isstaying in your lane.
The way I talk about it when Icoach entrepreneurs is I talk
about staying in your office.
Like each person has an officeand you stay in your office.
But how does that play out inyour marriage when you disagree?
(05:48):
Mike, you want to take it or youwant me?
SPEAKER_00 (05:50):
So, I mean, I could take it to start.
I think it's the same approach,whether it's marriage or home.
And, you know, when you start abusiness, you pick a co-founder.
When you get married, you'vepicked like a life partner,
right?
And the advice, as we wrote thebook, the advice I would give to
(06:12):
both people picking spouses andco-founders are kind of the
same.
And, you know, there are about10 different ideas that you know
we talk about, but one of themis what you mailed.
And, you know, it's this ideathat you need to divide
responsibilities clearly.
Otherwise, you are gonna step oneach other's toes.
(06:34):
You're not going to optimizeyour relationship.
And so there's certain thingsthat are my lanes.
And so I've always handled likereligion and travel, and I do a
lot of the cooking, even thoughwe both like cooking.
I kind of enjoy the end of theday just, you know, relaxing my
mind and and cooking.
(06:55):
And so she does 95% ofeverything, right?
She does all of like as a kid'sgrow up, the doctor's forms and
the school forms and theappointments.
And at work, I'm more thevisionary and she's more of the
operator, right?
And so find someone whocompliments you, whatever that
(07:19):
means in your life.
And whether it's a co-founder ora spouse, I think having people
who you know appreciate thestrengths and the weaknesses,
like we all appreciate strengthsof people, but like, you know,
are these the weaknesses thatyou would be okay with?
Like, if you know your spouse isgonna have weaknesses, are these
(07:40):
ones that you're cool with?
SPEAKER_01 (07:43):
And have those conver.
Yeah, sorry.
SPEAKER_00 (07:46):
If it if they're not, run, right?
SPEAKER_01 (07:48):
And so the conversations you have to have
involve um values, like and andhaving those conversations like
early, right, Mike?
Like talking about that early.
I think us working together soearly in our relationship forced
those conversations.
And then the personal ones wouldkind of spill out because we're
(08:10):
like, well, if we're talkingabout this, like, how do you
want to raise the kids?
Right.
And I see a lot of young peoplethese days, not just
entrepreneurs, but just peoplein general that are not having
the difficult, awkward,uncomfortable situations because
they're afraid of the answers.
And the answers aren't the end,right?
It's just more data, and it's inand that helps you in the in the
(08:34):
long run.
So, you know, we would haveconversations.
I I specifically remember thisconversation with Mike about how
we were going to raise the kids.
And he said, Well, I feel verystrongly about them being
Jewish.
And I said, I'm totally finewith that.
I feel very strongly that thereare a lot of Christmas trees in
my home.
And he looked at me and said,Sounds great.
(08:55):
And that was that, right?
SPEAKER_02 (08:57):
Yeah.
Hanukkah Harry came to ourhouse.
So we just had Hanukkah trees.
Right, right.
Yes.
I love it.
Can you give an example of likea recent disagreement and like
what that would look like if thetwo of you had different
opinions on something and likemaybe whose lane it was in, or
(09:17):
and is this work-wise or orpersonally?
SPEAKER_01 (09:20):
Personally.
Let's see.
Um maybe with one of the kids,or it's definitely always one of
the kids.
SPEAKER_00 (09:29):
I would say wouldn't you say okay, go, Mike.
You know, we just became emptynesters and we dropped our
daughter off on a Tuesday.
So it was about a month ago.
And we made a commitment thatwe're going to like, you know,
do new stuff together andcelebrate it.
(09:51):
That weekend, one of my longtimefriends had a 60th birthday
party in Vegas.
And so I said, listen, I know Isaid we would do all these
things, but I also have this.
And we just got it out on thetable, spoke about it, and came
to a good place, um, which islike, yeah, I need to show up
(10:14):
for a friend, and we're gonnacontinue to kind of celebrate
our you know, free burden um thefollowing week, which we did.
And we did the night before.
We had a really nice dinner.
And so, you know, that may seemsmall, but if you don't talk
about them, like in the past, Iwould try to like spin it and
(10:40):
sell it and convince her whythings are actually good for
her.
And then at some point it waslike, listen, you're not gonna
like this.
I know it's gonna cause somelike more work on your plate
when the kids were young, butI'm going to a four-day fish the
(11:00):
band, you know, kind of stand inVegas.
And I just want to make sure,unless there's like anything
that I'm not seeing, Iappreciate the support.
And I know that this is gonna bemiserable when I'm gone and you
have three kids.
Like tackle issues, get ahead ofthem.
(11:22):
And it's not that that's a bigissue, but if you do it again
and again and again, resentmentbuilds up on either side.
And whatever the answer is,whatever, however, you end, you
move forward.
You don't look back, you don'taccuse.
(11:43):
You know, short memories are agreat thing.
SPEAKER_01 (11:46):
I also think that we became, or at least I could just
speak for myself.
I became okay with saying, like,you know, like, no, I'm not
happy with you going.
And that's it.
Yeah.
(12:06):
Like, I don't need to make himfeel better about something that
was a conflict on his part thatbreaks the agreement.
And I think when people do thatin a relationship, it holds them
accountable a little bit more.
You know, you're not it justlike it's not my job to make you
(12:28):
feel better about the decisionyou're making, right?
And I think a lot of people dothat in relationships.
It was a tough choice, and I wasbummed, and it is what it is,
and he was apologetic and alsoknew we didn't have to put a bow
on it that everything was okay.
SPEAKER_02 (12:47):
Yeah, I love that because he still gets to make
his own choices, but he doesn'tget to choose how you feel about
his choices, right?
So that's a very importantthing.
SPEAKER_00 (12:57):
And you have to be okay with your choices, like
choices have consequences, andso I think I become, and there
are examples on both sides, butI become much more um thoughtful
on how and when I kind of doselfish things, and how often I
(13:22):
think everyone should, yeah, andhow often like you have to do
things to make you happy, and ifyou want, if you value
relationships, you have tounderstand how they impact the
relationship, and you have to beable to.
It took me a long time to holdlike two ideas that were like
(13:42):
opposing, right?
Like these dialectics in ourlives, which is like I really
want to do this, and I'm gonnado this, and my business
partner, my wife is not happyabout it.
Okay, I'm not asking her to behappy, and I'm gonna do it, and
(14:03):
you have to be okay with that,which is was difficult for me
for many years, especially withyoung kids who needed us.
SPEAKER_02 (14:10):
Yeah, yeah, that's really good.
So, uh, a concept that we bothreally like is this idea of
cheat codes.
You you have a lot in your book,which is so fun.
I love a good cheat code.
I talk about a lot of cheatcodes in marriage.
So I'm wondering if you couldgive us like your top three
cheat codes for and I should setthis up a little bit because
(14:34):
when you guys came to speak atthe event that I first saw you
and met you at, you told thisstory about how you were about
to lose golf.com and like this,you know, you thought you had
this awesome exit, and thenyou're about to lose everything,
and you took off to I think SanFrancisco, and you shared a
(14:54):
motel room with your businesspartner.
And I'm sitting here thinking,oh my gosh, like that would be
horrible.
And then you like have this wildlike swing into now you're
making$345 million exits fromoh, what's it, buddy media
(15:16):
buddy?
Buddy media, exactly.
Buddy media.
Sorry, I'm not very technical.
Media buddy, and that's a hugelike swing of circumstances.
Like most couples can't weatherthe storms that come from
extreme hardship to extremewealth and everything that is
(15:39):
required, shoveling all the shitin between.
So I'm wondering if you can giveus like three cheat codes for
your relationship on how youkind of got through all the
really messy parts of that.
SPEAKER_01 (15:55):
Well, you know, it's hard to say the cheat codes
without realizing you know, youalso pick the right person,
right?
So you know, I think both of usdon't want to go through things
without each other.
And I think that is the premiseof I would say my resent if I
(16:18):
ever get resentful.
It's like, wait, I don't want todo this alone.
This is not what I signed upfor.
So I think a cheat code is thatyou go through the good times
and the bad times.
It's not one person'sresponsibility.
And just because it's not fundoesn't mean it still doesn't
need the same, you know,combined support, right?
So I think that's one is thatyou have to have to make sure
(16:42):
that you're sharing the load ofof the of this of the actual bad
times because it's it's youknow, it's not fun.
Like what I think, and Mike canspeak for himself, but I think
he did find out because he wasyounger than I am, that life
isn't always fun, right?
I mean, I think there's peopleout there who think it's just
(17:02):
you get married, everything'sfine, you're gonna have kids.
You have no idea who you'regetting, right?
When you have kids, they're alldifferent, they all have
different needs, they relate toyou, each parent differently in
different stages.
And so it's it's that's a bigone.
I think another cheat code iswe've always gone on dates as
often as we can, um, away fromthe kids.
(17:25):
So I think that's like a bigdeal.
When they were younger, um, it'sactually easier to leave them if
we ever went even just a nightovernight somewhere or you know,
one to two nights.
We always tried to get away fromthem just to remember us.
Mike, do you have any othercheat codes?
SPEAKER_00 (17:43):
Well, that's a really big one.
Um, and it's big if you'remarried, it's big if you just
have a co-founder.
Um, and so you're gonna lose therelationship if you don't invest
in it.
If it's just about work, yourmarriage, like if you're working
with your spouse, you're gonnalose like everything that's
great about marriage, right?
(18:04):
Like the humanity aspect of it,the intimacy.
Um, and vice versa, likeco-founders can lose their
relationships if it's all likeboard decks and hiring
decisions, and they're not liketaking time to like have
breakfast and go see music orplay golf or connect as humans,
(18:25):
right?
Um, so don't lose a humanity inthe marriage for sure.
Always date each other.
I think the one thing that Ilook back at a relationship,
it's kind of you know, justfight fair.
Like disagreements areinevitable.
Like you're not if assuming yourspouse is a thinking person,
(18:47):
which I think everyone who'stuned in here has a if they have
a spouse, you know, bare minimumthey're a thinking human being,
um you know, attack like theproblem, not the person.
Like, don't bring up like pastbattles as examples.
(19:08):
Like, I hate that.
Like, yeah, you did this likewhen Miles was two.
I'm like, yeah, but I was suchan unevolved, like man child.
Like, yes, and I've learned fromthat, and you know I have,
right?
And then like resolve itquickly.
Like, the longer somethinglingers with Cass, that tension
(19:29):
builds up.
Whereas if I'm just like,listen, do you have time to sit
down?
Like, I'm really sorry.
I know you're pissed.
I'm sorry I didn't listen anddid this.
I know that caused tons ofheadache.
I can't reverse it.
I am gonna be proactive and notreactive in the future.
(19:51):
I'm doing everything I can tomake sure that it doesn't happen
again.
Um like that conversation is atough one for a lot of guys to
have.
Some women, but I feel likewomen are like better
communicating emotions in myworld.
Maybe they're not, but um andwhat happens is you get over it
(20:14):
fast, and the other person feelslike they are being seen because
you know, and typically it'slike, well, I shouldn't have
done this, right?
And so it's like a mutual, I'msorry, even though I don't like
love that.
Like, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'msorry, it doesn't really mean
anything, especially if you'reyou've done it a hundred times.
(20:34):
Um, the other thing that I thinkis just you know key is just
trust.
Like realize that once trust isbroken, it's like impossible to
rebuild in whatever setting itis.
I'm not talking about likeinfidelity and that's that's
(20:56):
like a bare minimum, right?
I'm talking about like I said Iwould do this, and you know,
it's one thing to forget everynow and then, but if your
partner can't trust you to justdo the bare minimum of what you
(21:16):
say you're gonna do, like you'redestined for failure marriage
and co-founder relationship.
SPEAKER_02 (21:26):
Okay, so let me see if I can summarize what we just
talked about into the threecheat codes.
I would say the first uh fromCass was um was repair or no,
stand together through the goodtimes and the bad.
So be there for each other,stand with each other.
(21:49):
Yeah, share the bad times.
Yeah, share the load.
Okay, I love that.
Share the load through the goodtimes and the bad times.
SPEAKER_01 (21:56):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (21:57):
So I think cheat code number one, cheat code
number two, it was a goodcombination of the two of you, I
think is to um invest in therelationship.
And your your your good tip isthrough date nights is really,
really important, date nightsand getting away as a couple.
And then the third cheat code, Ithink, is build teamwork through
(22:17):
communication and trust is whatI heard you guys say.
SPEAKER_01 (22:20):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I mean, I think Mike was wasprobably getting at if you heal
little fights along the way,they don't become a pile of
books that fall over and becomemuch bigger to clean up.
SPEAKER_02 (22:36):
Yeah, that's really good.
So the way I kind of describethat when I'm talking to my
couples is like doing thedishes, right?
Like if you just do the dishesas they get used, it's much more
effective than having thismassive pile of shaked on grime
dishes, and nobody wants toaddress that.
(22:57):
Right, exactly.
Yeah, so good.
Okay, I love those cheat codes.
I love them.
All right.
So, my next question is what'sone thing that everyday couples,
not just entrepreneurs, can takefrom your book and apply to
their marriage?
SPEAKER_01 (23:12):
I would say uh radical transparency.
So we we talk about how, andMike touched on a little bit, we
talk in the book about how thatcreates trust.
And Mike just mentioned trust,like say what you mean, me what
you say.
And if you can be transparentall of the time, then you begin
(23:35):
to rely on each other and yourely on each other for each
other's strengths and understandand forgive their weaknesses and
accept them.
So I would say that, like again,it's this idea that you're not
trying to make your job, isn'tit each other to try to make
someone else comfortable withyour own feelings and whatever.
Your job is to be transparentand work on things together.
SPEAKER_02 (23:59):
Love that.
SPEAKER_01 (24:00):
So good.
SPEAKER_02 (24:01):
Mike, what would you say?
SPEAKER_01 (24:02):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (24:05):
I mean, there's a concept that we're really we
spent a lot of time in themiddle of and thinking about
called the pivot, which isbasically like you make all
these plans, you launch, andthings don't go your way.
And it's critical as a companyto not do what's not working,
(24:26):
right?
And to pivot.
And I think the same is true formarriages, that if something
isn't working, find a way to getthings working.
And so if he doesn't like whatyou're doing, like don't do it,
(24:46):
right?
Like find a new behavior, andvice versa.
If you know, there's thisconcept of like just always you
have to like keep it fresh, youhave to be innovative, um, which
is what date nights were for us.
Like, even though we're workinghard, it forced us to like think
about how we want to spend timetogether.
(25:07):
Sometimes it was dinner,sometimes we didn't even have
the energy to leave theapartment, sometimes it was a
Broadway show or something else.
And so, just this idea of likechange, do more of what's
working and less of what isn'tworking, don't get set in like
(25:28):
we're in this world of AI whereanyone who clings to old models,
I think, is going to be leftbehind that across the board,
whether it's how you sell, howyou service like customers, how
you build product, all of thatis changing with virtual
employees, these agenticemployees.
(25:50):
And in many ways, I think yourmarriage has to evolve like
that.
Like you have to like look fornew things, exciting things to
do together, and not just getstuck in old habits that get
boring and build up resentment.
Um, and so for us, it's now youknow, we're new phase of our
(26:13):
life, we're planning a bunch ofadventure travel, some things
that we want to learn that we'venever had time, we could learn
together, right?
Cass has always wanted to be aprofessional ballroom dancer.
I don't know if that's true, butI throw it out there.
But that could be something thatwho knows, we do.
(26:36):
Like we're going to the Arctic,which we've never been because
we've had kids.
We're diving into longevity, youknow, because we have some time
and some resources to figure outlike, is there anything we
should be doing to potentiallyenhance our health span?
Um and so, you know, you getmarried, and all of a sudden
(26:59):
it's like you find yourselfsitting next to the same person
on the couch, and people justget resentment, resentful and
bored and feel like they don'thave any agency, that they're
just a victim.
But Mike, you gotta pay, yougotta like move in different
directions.
SPEAKER_01 (27:18):
I also think that it's okay to be bored.
Like, I'm I'm like I tell mykids, I'm sure you do too,
Monica, that like they'll comeup to me and be like, I'm so
bored.
I'm like awesome, great.
There'll be very few times inyour life going forward where
you will feel that way.
Awesome.
Why does it feel uncomfortable?
(27:39):
Right.
So, you know, I think you know,I think you evolve as time goes
on.
And you know, we had what threeand a half years before we had
kids, but we were runningcompanies together.
So that kind of sped up um howclose we were.
And then we had what three yearsbefore or two years before we
(28:04):
had our first child.
And then kids really, I mean,for good or for bad, like they
really changed dynamics becauseyou have your personalities,
your own parent baggage fromyour families of origin in the
parenting.
And despite that, like you havedifferent agendas most of the
time.
Like that's something I thinkthat Mike and I finally figured
(28:28):
out.
I don't know, 10 years in thatyou know, you parent the way you
weren't parented or what youmissed from.
And sometimes those drive thingsas opposed to doing it together
or whatever that is.
SPEAKER_02 (28:42):
So yeah, that is kind of a long-winded all over
the answer, but yeah, no, Ithink that's so important
because you you want to feelcomfort, you want to feel
comfort in each other.
So that's a little bit of thatboredom, but you also want to be
able to renegotiate, like youalways want to be growing and
evolving with each other,exactly.
(29:02):
Um, sharing that with eachother.
So I think both of those, it'sholding the two things, Mike,
right?
Like it's it's being able tohold both of those and love all
of that.
And I am so grateful for yourtime today.
I know you guys are super busy,and I just I want to respect
your time.
So I'm gonna skip right to thislast question, which is
(29:23):
basically the crux of thispodcast, which is if your kids
asked you, what's the secret tohappily ever after, what would
you tell them?
SPEAKER_00 (29:32):
I think the secret to happily ever after is picking
the right partner to start with.
If you pick the right partner,you get a lot of things right.
And you don't pick forconvenience, you pick for
character and long term fit andshared vision, and you know, uh
(29:56):
having a life that's likeanchored around a shared vision.
You know, a why like is reallyimportant, and too many people
um aren't as proactive as theyshould.
They either settle later in lifeor they're just like, oh, let's
just get married, right?
And so much follows from thatdecision.
(30:19):
If you don't get it right, youhave no chance.
Literally no chance.
Like you're gonna be miserable,he or she's gonna be miserable,
you're not gonna be able to, ifyou're miserable at home, you're
not gonna be able to perform inany other part of your life
unless you're a psychopath,which none of your listeners
(30:40):
are.
Um and I think that's the onlything I got right, and then I
worked on it a lot.
Therapy, self-awareness.
If you pick right, that partnerwill help you address your
shortcomings in a loving way,which I had many coming into the
(31:04):
relationship at 22 years old.
SPEAKER_01 (31:06):
I I mean, I would say like there's two, if I could
um say like I said, just onejust one that's illegal.
I just I said the healing one,like heal things along the way,
because I think that reallyhelps.
But I think the thing that I'verealized from entrepreneurship
and running companies with Mikeis we always say to each other,
(31:29):
can we get on the same pageabout this?
And one of the things that we'vedone really well is sat down
purposeful time to look atweeks, look at days, look at
subject matters, things we haveto figure out, things we have to
get off our to-do list or getback to people or social plans.
(31:50):
It's not one of us is doing thesocial plans.
We're a team.
And so I would say to everyonelistening, even if you're very
young in a marriage, you know,you're not gonna know what the
other person's thinking.
You think you you there's thislike a fantasy out there that
when you pick the right person,you're still gonna, everything's
(32:12):
gonna magically fall in placeand you're always gonna know
what you should do and neverhave to talk about things.
And it's just a load of of crap.
Okay, it's just not true.
You can pick the right person,but the next step should be have
a weekly meeting.
Have a weekly meeting, right?
And if you have kids, it's gotto be without the kids.
(32:36):
And you're sitting there, yes,you can you go over what you
have coming up and andlogistics, but also like what
are the goals?
Talk about like, hey, what do wewant for this year?
Because that also helps to skirtaround um resentment that builds
up, right?
So, you know, big time.
(32:59):
I think that that idea thatpeople are not gonna magically
know what you want or what youthink, even if you pick the
right person, have the meetingsand call them meetings.
Who cares if you meet with yourpartner, your spouse?
You need to.
You have a big life that you'reyou know, you're you're
journeying on for 50, 60 years.
(33:20):
You can't just, you know, thinkthat he's gonna or she's gonna
know what's going on.
SPEAKER_02 (33:26):
Yeah, so good.
I love it.
Any last words?
I mean, tell people where theycan find the book.
SPEAKER_01 (33:33):
And, you know, if they have a pitch for you, I'm
sure there's people listeningwho are like they can always,
you know, reach us at info atcast and mic.com or DM us on any
of the you know social channels.
We're the ones actually gettingback to people.
We love entrepreneurs, and youcan buy the book on Amazon.
So we welcome everyone to youknow get a copy, tell us what
(33:56):
you think.
Definitely review it if you likeit.
That would be awesome.
Awesome.
SPEAKER_02 (34:01):
Well, thank you guys so, so much for this.
This has been amazing.
I hope that entrepreneurs andnon-entrepreneurs alike will
learn something from shovelingshit in relationships and in
business.
And um, you know, go give Mikeand Cass or Cass and Mike.
It's Cass and Mike on all thesocials.
(34:22):
Go give them a follow, reachout, and thank you guys again so
much for your time.
Thank you.
SPEAKER_00 (34:28):
Appreciate it.
Hello and welcome to the Secrets of Happily Ever
After podcast.
I'm your host, Monica Tanner,and I'm really, really excited
about our guest today.
They are Mike and Cass Lazaro,the New York Times bestselling
authors of the book ShovelingShit.
And I am so, so, so excited toget into this topic with them
because they have been wildlysuccessful in business, and
(00:24):
they've also been through a lotof ups and downs.
And I am so excited to explorethe relational relationship
parts of all of this.
Of course, this podcast iscalled Secrets of Happily Ever
After.
So I want to just really diginto how did you guys stay
connected and on the same pageand moving in the same direction
(00:45):
during all of this chaos?
So your book has a bold title,Shoveling Shit.
So I am wondering why you choseto frame your entrepreneurship
journey as a love story as well.
Mikey, start.
SPEAKER_00 (01:00):
Yes.
So Cass and I've been togetherfor almost 30 years, and a
consistent part of ourrelationship has been business.
We actually launched a businessbefore we got married, which we
would not recommend as thedefault way that businesses
should be started, but it feltright to us.
We had a shared passion forinnovation at this point many,
(01:24):
many years ago, internet and web1.0.
And very quickly it becameapparent that we were going to
have this kind of imbalancedlife of the entrepreneur where
we wanted to grow companies andmake money and you know fulfill
that side of our life.
But we also wanted a family andwe had kind of a vision for our
(01:45):
life.
And so we've had three kids.
We kind of had kids around eachof the kind of company starting
or key moments in the company.
And I think the consistent partof our relationship is any
co-founder relationship at workand any marriage, it's just
(02:05):
about communication.
And it's about kind of fightingfairly, not being
passive-aggressive, beingaggressive, um, respecting the
other person for who they areand not giving away who you are.
And I think because of theshared life, we've been able to
play to our strengths and reallymake up for some of the
(02:28):
weaknesses personally andprofessionally that each of us
has.
SPEAKER_01 (02:54):
Yeah, definitely.
And I think, you know, we we meteach other, we've always known
each other because I um kind ofgrew up in his house and as
friends with his older brother.
Um, his older brother and I arethe same age, and Mike's a
little younger.
And, you know, so we had a lotin in common, right?
We had the same kind of moralsand values growing up around the
(03:17):
same people.
Went to, I went to the all-girlsschool, he went to the all-boys'
school.
But when we connected later onin life, we both had this shared
interest of, you know, Web 1.0,the internet.
Like, what was this?
This is back in like 1996.
And from that moment on, I thinkwe both saw each other's
(03:37):
expertise and excitement, andthen respected each other's
expertise, which I think was abig deal, and actually laid the
foundation for things going wellat home, if that makes sense.
Because we were apart for a yearand then we moved in together,
and we would rely on each otherin our separate jobs to help
(04:00):
each other, right?
And when we started companiestogether, we always had a date
night.
It wasn't we did as much as wecould to not talk about work,
and it was about nurturing whatwe both like were excited about.
And then once you throw kidsinto it, it's a whole different
wrench.
(04:21):
And I think if I think that'sbeen the hardest part for me is
like two people parentingdifferent humans.
That's really hard, really,really hard.
And um we got through it.
We could we're still doing it,but we've gotten through the
hard times, or at least a lot ofhard times.
SPEAKER_02 (04:44):
Yeah, you you have you're parenting all adult
children.
I have yeah, so I'm half andhalf.
I've got two adult children andtwo children at home, so it's
different.
Yeah, parenting adult children.
It changes the game.
SPEAKER_01 (04:56):
Yeah.
And bigger kids, biggerproblems, less time to really
make an impact as a parent.
But I think, um, I think wereally laid the foundation for
our marriage because when youwork with someone, you know,
it's business.
You you have to have thickerskin.
(05:18):
You, you, you know, things arenot going to be as sugar coated.
This is work.
And that really helped in ourother parts of life, our our
personal parts.
SPEAKER_02 (05:27):
Yeah.
So in your book, you talk aboutrole clarity in your business.
And so, like staying, which isstaying in your lane.
The way I talk about it when Icoach entrepreneurs is I talk
about staying in your office.
Like each person has an officeand you stay in your office.
But how does that play out inyour marriage when you disagree?
(05:48):
Mike, you want to take it or youwant me?
SPEAKER_00 (05:50):
So, I mean, I could take it to start.
I think it's the same approach,whether it's marriage or home.
And, you know, when you start abusiness, you pick a co-founder.
When you get married, you'vepicked like a life partner,
right?
And the advice, as we wrote thebook, the advice I would give to
(06:12):
both people picking spouses andco-founders are kind of the
same.
And, you know, there are about10 different ideas that you know
we talk about, but one of themis what you mailed.
And, you know, it's this ideathat you need to divide
responsibilities clearly.
Otherwise, you are gonna step oneach other's toes.
(06:34):
You're not going to optimizeyour relationship.
And so there's certain thingsthat are my lanes.
And so I've always handled likereligion and travel, and I do a
lot of the cooking, even thoughwe both like cooking.
I kind of enjoy the end of theday just, you know, relaxing my
mind and and cooking.
(06:55):
And so she does 95% ofeverything, right?
She does all of like as a kid'sgrow up, the doctor's forms and
the school forms and theappointments.
And at work, I'm more thevisionary and she's more of the
operator, right?
And so find someone whocompliments you, whatever that
(07:19):
means in your life.
And whether it's a co-founder ora spouse, I think having people
who you know appreciate thestrengths and the weaknesses,
like we all appreciate strengthsof people, but like, you know,
are these the weaknesses thatyou would be okay with?
Like, if you know your spouse isgonna have weaknesses, are these
(07:40):
ones that you're cool with?
SPEAKER_01 (07:43):
And have those conver.
Yeah, sorry.
SPEAKER_00 (07:46):
If it if they're not, run, right?
SPEAKER_01 (07:48):
And so the conversations you have to have
involve um values, like and andhaving those conversations like
early, right, Mike?
Like talking about that early.
I think us working together soearly in our relationship forced
those conversations.
And then the personal ones wouldkind of spill out because we're
(08:10):
like, well, if we're talkingabout this, like, how do you
want to raise the kids?
Right.
And I see a lot of young peoplethese days, not just
entrepreneurs, but just peoplein general that are not having
the difficult, awkward,uncomfortable situations because
they're afraid of the answers.
And the answers aren't the end,right?
It's just more data, and it's inand that helps you in the in the
(08:34):
long run.
So, you know, we would haveconversations.
I I specifically remember thisconversation with Mike about how
we were going to raise the kids.
And he said, Well, I feel verystrongly about them being
Jewish.
And I said, I'm totally finewith that.
I feel very strongly that thereare a lot of Christmas trees in
my home.
And he looked at me and said,Sounds great.
(08:55):
And that was that, right?
SPEAKER_02 (08:57):
Yeah.
Hanukkah Harry came to ourhouse.
So we just had Hanukkah trees.
Right, right.
Yes.
I love it.
Can you give an example of likea recent disagreement and like
what that would look like if thetwo of you had different
opinions on something and likemaybe whose lane it was in, or
(09:17):
and is this work-wise or orpersonally?
SPEAKER_01 (09:20):
Personally.
Let's see.
Um maybe with one of the kids,or it's definitely always one of
the kids.
SPEAKER_00 (09:29):
I would say wouldn't you say okay, go, Mike.
You know, we just became emptynesters and we dropped our
daughter off on a Tuesday.
So it was about a month ago.
And we made a commitment thatwe're going to like, you know,
do new stuff together andcelebrate it.
(09:51):
That weekend, one of my longtimefriends had a 60th birthday
party in Vegas.
And so I said, listen, I know Isaid we would do all these
things, but I also have this.
And we just got it out on thetable, spoke about it, and came
to a good place, um, which islike, yeah, I need to show up
(10:14):
for a friend, and we're gonnacontinue to kind of celebrate
our you know, free burden um thefollowing week, which we did.
And we did the night before.
We had a really nice dinner.
And so, you know, that may seemsmall, but if you don't talk
about them, like in the past, Iwould try to like spin it and
(10:40):
sell it and convince her whythings are actually good for
her.
And then at some point it waslike, listen, you're not gonna
like this.
I know it's gonna cause somelike more work on your plate
when the kids were young, butI'm going to a four-day fish the
(11:00):
band, you know, kind of stand inVegas.
And I just want to make sure,unless there's like anything
that I'm not seeing, Iappreciate the support.
And I know that this is gonna bemiserable when I'm gone and you
have three kids.
Like tackle issues, get ahead ofthem.
(11:22):
And it's not that that's a bigissue, but if you do it again
and again and again, resentmentbuilds up on either side.
And whatever the answer is,whatever, however, you end, you
move forward.
You don't look back, you don'taccuse.
(11:43):
You know, short memories are agreat thing.
SPEAKER_01 (11:46):
I also think that we became, or at least I could just
speak for myself.
I became okay with saying, like,you know, like, no, I'm not
happy with you going.
And that's it.
Yeah.
(12:06):
Like, I don't need to make himfeel better about something that
was a conflict on his part thatbreaks the agreement.
And I think when people do thatin a relationship, it holds them
accountable a little bit more.
You know, you're not it justlike it's not my job to make you
(12:28):
feel better about the decisionyou're making, right?
And I think a lot of people dothat in relationships.
It was a tough choice, and I wasbummed, and it is what it is,
and he was apologetic and alsoknew we didn't have to put a bow
on it that everything was okay.
SPEAKER_02 (12:47):
Yeah, I love that because he still gets to make
his own choices, but he doesn'tget to choose how you feel about
his choices, right?
So that's a very importantthing.
SPEAKER_00 (12:57):
And you have to be okay with your choices, like
choices have consequences, andso I think I become, and there
are examples on both sides, butI become much more um thoughtful
on how and when I kind of doselfish things, and how often I
(13:22):
think everyone should, yeah, andhow often like you have to do
things to make you happy, and ifyou want, if you value
relationships, you have tounderstand how they impact the
relationship, and you have to beable to.
It took me a long time to holdlike two ideas that were like
(13:42):
opposing, right?
Like these dialectics in ourlives, which is like I really
want to do this, and I'm gonnado this, and my business
partner, my wife is not happyabout it.
Okay, I'm not asking her to behappy, and I'm gonna do it, and
(14:03):
you have to be okay with that,which is was difficult for me
for many years, especially withyoung kids who needed us.
SPEAKER_02 (14:10):
Yeah, yeah, that's really good.
So, uh, a concept that we bothreally like is this idea of
cheat codes.
You you have a lot in your book,which is so fun.
I love a good cheat code.
I talk about a lot of cheatcodes in marriage.
So I'm wondering if you couldgive us like your top three
cheat codes for and I should setthis up a little bit because
(14:34):
when you guys came to speak atthe event that I first saw you
and met you at, you told thisstory about how you were about
to lose golf.com and like this,you know, you thought you had
this awesome exit, and thenyou're about to lose everything,
and you took off to I think SanFrancisco, and you shared a
(14:54):
motel room with your businesspartner.
And I'm sitting here thinking,oh my gosh, like that would be
horrible.
And then you like have this wildlike swing into now you're
making$345 million exits fromoh, what's it, buddy media
(15:16):
buddy?
Buddy media, exactly.
Buddy media.
Sorry, I'm not very technical.
Media buddy, and that's a hugelike swing of circumstances.
Like most couples can't weatherthe storms that come from
extreme hardship to extremewealth and everything that is
(15:39):
required, shoveling all the shitin between.
So I'm wondering if you can giveus like three cheat codes for
your relationship on how youkind of got through all the
really messy parts of that.
SPEAKER_01 (15:55):
Well, you know, it's hard to say the cheat codes
without realizing you know, youalso pick the right person,
right?
So you know, I think both of usdon't want to go through things
without each other.
And I think that is the premiseof I would say my resent if I
(16:18):
ever get resentful.
It's like, wait, I don't want todo this alone.
This is not what I signed upfor.
So I think a cheat code is thatyou go through the good times
and the bad times.
It's not one person'sresponsibility.
And just because it's not fundoesn't mean it still doesn't
need the same, you know,combined support, right?
So I think that's one is thatyou have to have to make sure
(16:42):
that you're sharing the load ofof the of this of the actual bad
times because it's it's youknow, it's not fun.
Like what I think, and Mike canspeak for himself, but I think
he did find out because he wasyounger than I am, that life
isn't always fun, right?
I mean, I think there's peopleout there who think it's just
(17:02):
you get married, everything'sfine, you're gonna have kids.
You have no idea who you'regetting, right?
When you have kids, they're alldifferent, they all have
different needs, they relate toyou, each parent differently in
different stages.
And so it's it's that's a bigone.
I think another cheat code iswe've always gone on dates as
often as we can, um, away fromthe kids.
(17:25):
So I think that's like a bigdeal.
When they were younger, um, it'sactually easier to leave them if
we ever went even just a nightovernight somewhere or you know,
one to two nights.
We always tried to get away fromthem just to remember us.
Mike, do you have any othercheat codes?
SPEAKER_00 (17:43):
Well, that's a really big one.
Um, and it's big if you'remarried, it's big if you just
have a co-founder.
Um, and so you're gonna lose therelationship if you don't invest
in it.
If it's just about work, yourmarriage, like if you're working
with your spouse, you're gonnalose like everything that's
great about marriage, right?
(18:04):
Like the humanity aspect of it,the intimacy.
Um, and vice versa, likeco-founders can lose their
relationships if it's all likeboard decks and hiring
decisions, and they're not liketaking time to like have
breakfast and go see music orplay golf or connect as humans,
(18:25):
right?
Um, so don't lose a humanity inthe marriage for sure.
Always date each other.
I think the one thing that Ilook back at a relationship,
it's kind of you know, justfight fair.
Like disagreements areinevitable.
Like you're not if assuming yourspouse is a thinking person,
(18:47):
which I think everyone who'stuned in here has a if they have
a spouse, you know, bare minimumthey're a thinking human being,
um you know, attack like theproblem, not the person.
Like, don't bring up like pastbattles as examples.
(19:08):
Like, I hate that.
Like, yeah, you did this likewhen Miles was two.
I'm like, yeah, but I was suchan unevolved, like man child.
Like, yes, and I've learned fromthat, and you know I have,
right?
And then like resolve itquickly.
Like, the longer somethinglingers with Cass, that tension
(19:29):
builds up.
Whereas if I'm just like,listen, do you have time to sit
down?
Like, I'm really sorry.
I know you're pissed.
I'm sorry I didn't listen anddid this.
I know that caused tons ofheadache.
I can't reverse it.
I am gonna be proactive and notreactive in the future.
(19:51):
I'm doing everything I can tomake sure that it doesn't happen
again.
Um like that conversation is atough one for a lot of guys to
have.
Some women, but I feel likewomen are like better
communicating emotions in myworld.
Maybe they're not, but um andwhat happens is you get over it
(20:14):
fast, and the other person feelslike they are being seen because
you know, and typically it'slike, well, I shouldn't have
done this, right?
And so it's like a mutual, I'msorry, even though I don't like
love that.
Like, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'msorry, it doesn't really mean
anything, especially if you'reyou've done it a hundred times.
(20:34):
Um, the other thing that I thinkis just you know key is just
trust.
Like realize that once trust isbroken, it's like impossible to
rebuild in whatever setting itis.
I'm not talking about likeinfidelity and that's that's
(20:56):
like a bare minimum, right?
I'm talking about like I said Iwould do this, and you know,
it's one thing to forget everynow and then, but if your
partner can't trust you to justdo the bare minimum of what you
(21:16):
say you're gonna do, like you'redestined for failure marriage
and co-founder relationship.
SPEAKER_02 (21:26):
Okay, so let me see if I can summarize what we just
talked about into the threecheat codes.
I would say the first uh fromCass was um was repair or no,
stand together through the goodtimes and the bad.
So be there for each other,stand with each other.
(21:49):
Yeah, share the bad times.
Yeah, share the load.
Okay, I love that.
Share the load through the goodtimes and the bad times.
SPEAKER_01 (21:56):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (21:57):
So I think cheat code number one, cheat code
number two, it was a goodcombination of the two of you, I
think is to um invest in therelationship.
And your your your good tip isthrough date nights is really,
really important, date nightsand getting away as a couple.
And then the third cheat code, Ithink, is build teamwork through
(22:17):
communication and trust is whatI heard you guys say.
SPEAKER_01 (22:20):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I mean, I think Mike was wasprobably getting at if you heal
little fights along the way,they don't become a pile of
books that fall over and becomemuch bigger to clean up.
SPEAKER_02 (22:36):
Yeah, that's really good.
So the way I kind of describethat when I'm talking to my
couples is like doing thedishes, right?
Like if you just do the dishesas they get used, it's much more
effective than having thismassive pile of shaked on grime
dishes, and nobody wants toaddress that.
(22:57):
Right, exactly.
Yeah, so good.
Okay, I love those cheat codes.
I love them.
All right.
So, my next question is what'sone thing that everyday couples,
not just entrepreneurs, can takefrom your book and apply to
their marriage?
SPEAKER_01 (23:12):
I would say uh radical transparency.
So we we talk about how, andMike touched on a little bit, we
talk in the book about how thatcreates trust.
And Mike just mentioned trust,like say what you mean, me what
you say.
And if you can be transparentall of the time, then you begin
(23:35):
to rely on each other and yourely on each other for each
other's strengths and understandand forgive their weaknesses and
accept them.
So I would say that, like again,it's this idea that you're not
trying to make your job, isn'tit each other to try to make
someone else comfortable withyour own feelings and whatever.
Your job is to be transparentand work on things together.
SPEAKER_02 (23:59):
Love that.
SPEAKER_01 (24:00):
So good.
SPEAKER_02 (24:01):
Mike, what would you say?
SPEAKER_01 (24:02):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (24:05):
I mean, there's a concept that we're really we
spent a lot of time in themiddle of and thinking about
called the pivot, which isbasically like you make all
these plans, you launch, andthings don't go your way.
And it's critical as a companyto not do what's not working,
(24:26):
right?
And to pivot.
And I think the same is true formarriages, that if something
isn't working, find a way to getthings working.
And so if he doesn't like whatyou're doing, like don't do it,
(24:46):
right?
Like find a new behavior, andvice versa.
If you know, there's thisconcept of like just always you
have to like keep it fresh, youhave to be innovative, um, which
is what date nights were for us.
Like, even though we're workinghard, it forced us to like think
about how we want to spend timetogether.
(25:07):
Sometimes it was dinner,sometimes we didn't even have
the energy to leave theapartment, sometimes it was a
Broadway show or something else.
And so, just this idea of likechange, do more of what's
working and less of what isn'tworking, don't get set in like
(25:28):
we're in this world of AI whereanyone who clings to old models,
I think, is going to be leftbehind that across the board,
whether it's how you sell, howyou service like customers, how
you build product, all of thatis changing with virtual
employees, these agenticemployees.
(25:50):
And in many ways, I think yourmarriage has to evolve like
that.
Like you have to like look fornew things, exciting things to
do together, and not just getstuck in old habits that get
boring and build up resentment.
Um, and so for us, it's now youknow, we're new phase of our
(26:13):
life, we're planning a bunch ofadventure travel, some things
that we want to learn that we'venever had time, we could learn
together, right?
Cass has always wanted to be aprofessional ballroom dancer.
I don't know if that's true, butI throw it out there.
But that could be something thatwho knows, we do.
(26:36):
Like we're going to the Arctic,which we've never been because
we've had kids.
We're diving into longevity, youknow, because we have some time
and some resources to figure outlike, is there anything we
should be doing to potentiallyenhance our health span?
Um and so, you know, you getmarried, and all of a sudden
(26:59):
it's like you find yourselfsitting next to the same person
on the couch, and people justget resentment, resentful and
bored and feel like they don'thave any agency, that they're
just a victim.
But Mike, you gotta pay, yougotta like move in different
directions.
SPEAKER_01 (27:18):
I also think that it's okay to be bored.
Like, I'm I'm like I tell mykids, I'm sure you do too,
Monica, that like they'll comeup to me and be like, I'm so
bored.
I'm like awesome, great.
There'll be very few times inyour life going forward where
you will feel that way.
Awesome.
Why does it feel uncomfortable?
(27:39):
Right.
So, you know, I think you know,I think you evolve as time goes
on.
And you know, we had what threeand a half years before we had
kids, but we were runningcompanies together.
So that kind of sped up um howclose we were.
And then we had what three yearsbefore or two years before we
(28:04):
had our first child.
And then kids really, I mean,for good or for bad, like they
really changed dynamics becauseyou have your personalities,
your own parent baggage fromyour families of origin in the
parenting.
And despite that, like you havedifferent agendas most of the
time.
Like that's something I thinkthat Mike and I finally figured
(28:28):
out.
I don't know, 10 years in thatyou know, you parent the way you
weren't parented or what youmissed from.
And sometimes those drive thingsas opposed to doing it together
or whatever that is.
SPEAKER_02 (28:42):
So yeah, that is kind of a long-winded all over
the answer, but yeah, no, Ithink that's so important
because you you want to feelcomfort, you want to feel
comfort in each other.
So that's a little bit of thatboredom, but you also want to be
able to renegotiate, like youalways want to be growing and
evolving with each other,exactly.
(29:02):
Um, sharing that with eachother.
So I think both of those, it'sholding the two things, Mike,
right?
Like it's it's being able tohold both of those and love all
of that.
And I am so grateful for yourtime today.
I know you guys are super busy,and I just I want to respect
your time.
So I'm gonna skip right to thislast question, which is
(29:23):
basically the crux of thispodcast, which is if your kids
asked you, what's the secret tohappily ever after, what would
you tell them?
SPEAKER_00 (29:32):
I think the secret to happily ever after is picking
the right partner to start with.
If you pick the right partner,you get a lot of things right.
And you don't pick forconvenience, you pick for
character and long term fit andshared vision, and you know, uh
(29:56):
having a life that's likeanchored around a shared vision.
You know, a why like is reallyimportant, and too many people
um aren't as proactive as theyshould.
They either settle later in lifeor they're just like, oh, let's
just get married, right?
And so much follows from thatdecision.
(30:19):
If you don't get it right, youhave no chance.
Literally no chance.
Like you're gonna be miserable,he or she's gonna be miserable,
you're not gonna be able to, ifyou're miserable at home, you're
not gonna be able to perform inany other part of your life
unless you're a psychopath,which none of your listeners
(30:40):
are.
Um and I think that's the onlything I got right, and then I
worked on it a lot.
Therapy, self-awareness.
If you pick right, that partnerwill help you address your
shortcomings in a loving way,which I had many coming into the
(31:04):
relationship at 22 years old.
SPEAKER_01 (31:06):
I I mean, I would say like there's two, if I could
um say like I said, just onejust one that's illegal.
I just I said the healing one,like heal things along the way,
because I think that reallyhelps.
But I think the thing that I'verealized from entrepreneurship
and running companies with Mikeis we always say to each other,
(31:29):
can we get on the same pageabout this?
And one of the things that we'vedone really well is sat down
purposeful time to look atweeks, look at days, look at
subject matters, things we haveto figure out, things we have to
get off our to-do list or getback to people or social plans.
(31:50):
It's not one of us is doing thesocial plans.
We're a team.
And so I would say to everyonelistening, even if you're very
young in a marriage, you know,you're not gonna know what the
other person's thinking.
You think you you there's thislike a fantasy out there that
when you pick the right person,you're still gonna, everything's
(32:12):
gonna magically fall in placeand you're always gonna know
what you should do and neverhave to talk about things.
And it's just a load of of crap.
Okay, it's just not true.
You can pick the right person,but the next step should be have
a weekly meeting.
Have a weekly meeting, right?
And if you have kids, it's gotto be without the kids.
(32:36):
And you're sitting there, yes,you can you go over what you
have coming up and andlogistics, but also like what
are the goals?
Talk about like, hey, what do wewant for this year?
Because that also helps to skirtaround um resentment that builds
up, right?
So, you know, big time.
(32:59):
I think that that idea thatpeople are not gonna magically
know what you want or what youthink, even if you pick the
right person, have the meetingsand call them meetings.
Who cares if you meet with yourpartner, your spouse?
You need to.
You have a big life that you'reyou know, you're you're
journeying on for 50, 60 years.
(33:20):
You can't just, you know, thinkthat he's gonna or she's gonna
know what's going on.
SPEAKER_02 (33:26):
Yeah, so good.
I love it.
Any last words?
I mean, tell people where theycan find the book.
SPEAKER_01 (33:33):
And, you know, if they have a pitch for you, I'm
sure there's people listeningwho are like they can always,
you know, reach us at info atcast and mic.com or DM us on any
of the you know social channels.
We're the ones actually gettingback to people.
We love entrepreneurs, and youcan buy the book on Amazon.
So we welcome everyone to youknow get a copy, tell us what
(33:56):
you think.
Definitely review it if you likeit.
That would be awesome.
Awesome.
SPEAKER_02 (34:01):
Well, thank you guys so, so much for this.
This has been amazing.
I hope that entrepreneurs andnon-entrepreneurs alike will
learn something from shovelingshit in relationships and in
business.
And um, you know, go give Mikeand Cass or Cass and Mike.
It's Cass and Mike on all thesocials.
(34:22):
Go give them a follow, reachout, and thank you guys again so
much for your time.
Thank you.
SPEAKER_00 (34:28):
Appreciate it.
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