The untold story of New Zealand's mass timber revolution unfolds as architectural designer Bernie from RM Designs and structural engineer Julian from ENGCO share their remarkable 10-year journey pioneering sustainable construction methods. What began as a response to the challenges of post-earthquake Christchurch has evolved into over 50 successful projects that demonstrate how thoughtful collaboration can transform an industry.
Their partnership reveals a refreshing counterpoint to the stereotypical architect-engineer rivalry. Instead, they've embraced a "no one of us is as smart as all of us" philosophy that brings contractors, manufacturers, and consultants to the table from day one. This early collaboration has been their secret weapon, allowing them to optimize designs for constructability while solving complex problems around acoustics, fire safety, and structural efficiency in mass timber buildings.
The conversation takes us through their breakthrough project—the Bealey Backpackers—where they reduced foundation costs from 20% to just 7-8% of the budget by leveraging timber's lightweight properties. We hear how their work with Housing New Zealand became a watershed moment, as they meticulously documented mass timber's advantages against traditional construction across more than 20 performance indicators. From three-story walk-ups completed in just 8.5 months to innovative projects like the Pounamu Pathway with its distinctive "America's Cup sail" design, their work spans everyday residential buildings to iconic cultural landmarks.
What makes this episode particularly valuable is their honest assessment of challenges facing mass timber adoption. Despite proven successes, every project still requires alternative solution documentation due to building code limitations. They've also evolved from timber purism to embrace hybrid approaches that pragmatically combine materials for optimal performance. Their parting wisdom? Understanding manufacturing capabilities from the outset is crucial—know what can be built before designing it.
Whether you're an architect, engineer, builder, or simply passionate about sustainable construction, this conversation offers invaluable insights from pioneers who've learned through trial and error so you don't have to. Ready to rethink how we design and construct buildings? This episode is your masterclass.
About RM Designs
47 Springfield Rd
(cnr Springfield & Clare Rd)
Christchurch
New Zealand
Phone
Ph: (03) 354 6341
E-mail
info@rmdesigns.co.nz
About ENGCO
ENGCO is a multi-disciplinary national consultancy with expertise delivering large scale projects, worth in excess of $100 million, and at the boutique end of the market, individual solutions for one-off domestic builds. The core of our business is in structural, civil and geotechnical engineering services, and we also have Green Star approved professional accreditation for our involvement with sustainable energy projects.
Our key values: Passion, Principles and People.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
Ladies and gentlemen, we are live.
This is the moment you all havebeen waiting for.
It's time for the globalsensation, the one, the only the
(00:26):
undisputed heavyweight podcastin the world the Mass Timber
Construction Podcast.
And now here's Paul Kramer,your host.
Speaker 2 (00:49):
Good morning, good afternoon or good evening.
Wherever you are in the worldtoday, welcome to the Mass
Timber Construction Podcast.
This is Paul Kramer, back withanother exciting episode.
And when I say that I am reallykeen to do this particular
podcast episode, it's true, notjust because the two gentlemen
that are sitting in the otherroom on the other side of the
ditch are in that room and itwould be highly embarrassing for
(01:10):
me to say anything otherwise infront of their presence, but I
really do think that we have avery, very special episode to
bring to you today.
So, my compadres in, I guess,the industry in New Zealand,
over the last sort of probablyseven years that I was involved
in the industry sector, and nowit's 10 years since we've sort
(01:31):
of known each other.
I have two people, I haveBernie and I have Julian.
Bernie, tell everyone who youare, what you do and where you
come from, and then Julian willkick over to you.
Speaker 3 (01:42):
But welcome to the podcast gents you come from and
then Julian will kick over toyou, but welcome to the podcast
gents.
Oh, pk, thanks for having us.
We've been watching yourpodcast emerge over.
The last must be three or fouryears.
Now Five years.
Five time flies.
Five years.
It's great to catch you up,more than anything.
But so I founded RM Designs in1997.
(02:05):
And we're architecturaldesigners, christchurch-based.
We've always been pretty steadyaround a staff number of 10.
So they've always, I guess, hadan eye to the future about
what's going on.
We started in a lot of fit-outdesign actually mostly
(02:26):
hospitality.
And then when Christchurch hadthe earthquake, we had sort of
merged into full-blownarchitecture at that stage and
we were into larger buildingsand our minds turned to
alternate building solutions.
And our minds turned toalternate building solutions
really subsequent to the quake,based on lack of labour, lack of
(02:57):
good contractors and justseeking a way of doing things
better, so it was about 2012,2013, when I met Julian.
Speaker 2 (03:07):
That's a great segue, julian.
Tell everyone who's in masstimber construction, listening
land all over the globe, who youare.
No pressure, just give anintroduction, right no worries,
okay, yeah, g'day everyone.
Speaker 4 (03:16):
Um, I'm julian addington, uh, one of the
founding directors of.
I've been running about 15 oddyears and, like Bernie said,
we're sort of linked up togetherfor, yeah, it must be at least
about seven or eight, possiblyeven 10 now.
So, yeah, we're predominantlystructural engineers, although
(03:39):
in the last few years we'vebrought in civil and geotech
really to support our structuraloffering.
I can talk more about thatlater.
But Mass Timber's been a realpassion and it's how Bertie and
I connected actually back thoseyears.
We were involved right at thestart when Mass Timber first
(04:00):
arrived in New Zealand PK youwould have remembered this well
and we got a knock on our door.
We were at the time playingaround with a SIP panel, had a
44-gallon drum in the back shedand doing crack tests and the
rest of it, and Robert and IanJack and Sam Leslie turned up
(04:22):
with this very interestinglooking product and we quickly
scrapped what we were doing andsaid, no, that looks awesome.
So we jumped on board with themand helped sort of write the
design guide.
Speaker 1 (04:41):
Helped with, you know the engineering side of the
early testing and then, fromthere, the journey.
Speaker 4 (04:45):
It's been fun, hasn't the journey?
It's been it's been fun, hasn'tit?
It's been a lot of fun, yeah,and we've just learned a
tremendous amount along the way.
Still learning, of course, onevery, on every job.
I think, bernie, your line froma couple of months ago, I think
, summed it up pretty well we'veworked on what?
50 projects together orsomething, and we're yet to get
one right.
Speaker 3 (05:05):
There's always something right Always you get a
little bit of mentalimprovement.
Pk isn't there, you knowwhatever you're doing.
But yeah, so it was a slidingdoors moment, really looking
back at it, because we wereoffered a job to take it through
, to develop design on a sitewhich was a very poor quality
(05:28):
here and I guess our main avenuereally Bailey Avenue and behind
a pub, and the client waslooking for two floors of sort
of three and a half starbackpacker accommodation and the
first idea we had we playedaround with containers and then
kind of went like you know, theoffshore risk and reward thing
(05:51):
didn't sit well with us.
They weren't from Vietnam, werethey?
They were yeah, yeah.
So I think we learnt enoughabout them.
On volumetric, you know we haverevisited it but it kind of
never really grabbed us.
What we did know about thisparticular site was that the
project wouldn't be built onconcrete and steel because
(06:13):
whoever was going to have acrack at it was going to expend
more than 20% of the budgetgetting out of the ground.
So we met Sam, leslie and therest of the crew from X-Lam and
Julian and we started to playaround with it.
We got out of the ground for 7%or 8% of the budget and from
that time on we didn't look back.
(06:34):
Did it work out?
Speaker 4 (06:36):
to me it was about 10% of the overall budget
difference, wasn't it Because wemanaged to lighten the
structure by using gas timber?
It was a key benefit at thattime, wasn't it?
That we managed to lighten thestructure by using gas timber
was a key benefit at that time,wasn't?
Speaker 3 (06:46):
it.
That was the key thing and Ithink we kind of you know, if
you look, we learned to applyother lessons from that.
But it took us a bit of time,okay, because we all know how it
goes working with a headcontractor who's only versed in
conventional and they can bereluctant to open their box on
P&G.
So you really don't know whathappens until you end up with a
(07:08):
good five or six or even sevenof your own case studies that
you can then talk to goodcontractors, but maybe
uninitiated, in the mass timberindustry.
So that was number one.
Speaker 2 (07:23):
Billy was an amazing project because it really
exemplified using mass timber inits purest form, you know,
using it for a structural,honeycomb-type structure layout
design.
For anyone trying to imaginethis backpackers, it was
industrial sort of aestheticpanels, this sort of hybrid
between the amount of knots thatwere in the timber versus
(07:46):
trying to maintain an aestheticand it actually did a good job
right and staying in the place,like when you are actually in
the presence of the place.
It's quite calming and soothingwith the mass timber surrounding
and cocooning you.
But the innovation for both ofyou that I like to commend and I
actually say I still use it totoday was dropping down the
(08:08):
ceiling in the corridor areas tofacilitate the MEP, the
maintenance and the servicessector that then going to funnel
services in and it actuallydidn't change too much the
presence of the space becauseyou'd walk in this corridor area
(08:30):
, have a lower ceiling but bythe time you walked in a room it
didn't equate to being adifference, because people don't
look up when they're walkingaround, they look straight ahead
.
So all they looked at was theview that was in front of them.
Great project, really wellexecuted, still an exemplary
project, and there's pictures onthe X-Lam website and probably
(08:51):
like yourselves as well, but ifanyone wants to go and have a
look at the Bealee Backpackers,you can do that.
I also might just say that,because you two blokes are from
Kiwiland, there will be atranscription of this entire
conversation so people canunderstand it Sorry.
Speaker 3 (09:13):
It's a Sunday, I can see it coming.
Speaker 2 (09:17):
I have one question for you, right?
Because I know in the land ofreality, architects and
engineers sometimes struggle toget along.
What's the secret to yourrelationship over 10 years plus,
from 2012 to now 13 years togetting along and doing 50
(09:37):
projects together?
Speaker 4 (09:39):
That'd be a lot of adventure, wouldn't?
Speaker 3 (09:41):
it?
I think it probably is.
Yeah, I mean, we're both umoutside of work, both do what I
think some people would considerextreme, um, extreme adventure
sport.
Uh, particularly Julian wholike skis off the top of 3000
meter mountains, 3000 meter highmountains, and I'm just a bit
(10:02):
of a runner, but I think we'reprobably so.
We've really enjoyed thosetimes together, so, but we
became friends.
After we're working together, Ithink, um, you know, we've had
RM's, got this, I guess, almosta throwaway line.
You know, no one of us is assmart as all of us, and it's
(10:22):
just incredible during theinception of a project where
good ideas will come from, andso that encompasses both our
teams, but also some really goodother external consultants, who
doesn't take you long to workout who they are when you bring
them into the fold about theones who are actually looking
(10:44):
for solutions from the time theysit around the desk with a few
sketches on it or at least startpointing out the issues that
will need to be solved.
Speaker 4 (10:55):
I think maybe it's a bit of that.
Yeah, I think what you'retouching on there.
Pk is probably, I think, one ofthe kind of key recipes I think
for making Mass Timber Projectsuccessful, and that is, if I
can speak for Bernie, you'reincredibly unique in the market
(11:21):
with the mindset of just whatyou've said of trying to bring
the right people around thetable right at the start of the
project.
And part of that correct me ifI'm wrong here but part of that,
I think, is probably due tothat hospitality experience
where you've had to thinkoff-site manufacturing from the
(11:42):
start of it.
So you walk into a place, youknow maybe the overall bulk of
what you need to fit it.
So you walk into a place, youknow maybe the overall bulk of
what you need to fit out, forexample, in a bar, and it's all
joinerism.
And when you look at a masstimber project, that's what it
is.
It's just a big kitchen set andright from the very inception of
a job you have to be thinkingabout what's our access onto the
(12:04):
site?
How big can the truck be?
How are the panels?
How are we going to arrangethem here?
Where are we going to put thecrane All the way through to
your intricate details of PK,what you touched on with running
the services before.
But all of that needs to bethought of at the front end.
If it's not, then you've got abig cop up, haven't you?
And we've seen that.
(12:25):
We've learned the hard way onsome jobs where, right late in
the project, you know someone'sturned up for one reason or
another, they haven't been partof the team.
Might be a bummer, for example,on one job turned up thinking
it was just another traditionalconstruction, and they go and
smack the massive hole throughsome of that kind of key
(12:46):
connections that had been, youknow, modelled to massive detail
a year ago.
So I think what you're touchingon there is a really kind of key
for me, anyway.
If you're trying to make a masstimber project successful, cost
effective, hitting all thevarious metrics that you've got,
it's all about the right teamearly.
Speaker 2 (13:11):
That synergy, Bernie, is something you have to hold
as a value.
Collaboration, tolerance ofothers, acceptance, working
together, team-oriented thesesound like corporate culture
taglines, don't they?
But in reality the translationhas to be that you have to hold
(13:33):
these as an individual for thegroup to hold and conserve those
values too, on a project.
Speaker 3 (13:40):
Oh, you know, like definitely you know.
I think you know we might havebrought the right thinking to
the table, but we were both verylucky to have it fine-tuned by
Gary Caulfield, g1, who was astrong influence in how we
started thinking, how we weregoing about things, and who
(14:01):
really introduced me to this.
What was novel 10 years ago?
This idea of ECI, where thehead contractor's sitting around
the table while you're stillmaking a decision, maybe on who
your manufacturing supplies are.
They may follow a short timeafterwards because you've got to
do something.
Okay, they're dimensionallydifferent, but there's a process
(14:24):
there and you know, I thinkthat has been.
If there's a few things thatset us aside, that's one of them
.
Just garnering the experienceof boys and girls who've been
building for like 30 years, youknow like it's incredibly
valuable.
Speaker 2 (14:44):
Yeah, gary is a pivotal player not only in
Australia and New Zealand, butalso did a lot of work in
Singapore with the NTU project,and our thoughts and wishes are
with him and his family.
He left this world a few yearsago and it was not a good way.
(15:04):
So just a shout out in a segueplease look after your mental
health when you're in theconstruction sector.
It can be very, very brutal attimes, but what you can find in
the lessons that come from thelegacy of people like Gary is
this sensibility of trying to dothings in a different way and
think differently, and I guessApple exemplified think
(15:25):
differently as a concept whenthey launched their Macintosh
computers, and we're still, tothis day, trying to apply
thinking differently to theconstruction industry, and it
sounds like you guys have founda formula.
Speaker 3 (15:41):
Yeah, Well we're still working on it, aren't we?
Yeah, yeah, like, what sort ofhappened next from there was
bloody incredible.
You know you hear these storiesfrom people about.
You know how did you sell yourhouse?
Someone knocked on my door andwanted to pay for it.
Well, we had the businessversion of that, really, where
(16:02):
Alistair Miles good, strong,local company here, who we built
papinui club at the same time,which was a big mass timber
portals out of hunters andnelson at the time pk and um he
had a connection to housing newzealand.
And again you talk about theprojects that barely the barely
lodge backpacker once stimulated.
(16:23):
That led to a research anddevelopment project with Housing
New Zealand.
Now, a few things happenedalong the way.
I think we built 12 or 13.
Four of them fell into the R&Dmodel.
That was a real pivotal moment,we feel, for our teams and, you
(16:44):
know, probably in all honesty,for mass timber industry.
Speaker 4 (16:47):
Yeah, there was an opportunity there where we got
to pitch mass timber against youknow four different
methodologies.
So we had a traditionalmethodology and then there was
even a concrete one in therewasn't there.
There was, yeah, our hybridmodel versus full CLT, and they
(17:08):
actually put a lot of resourcesinto measuring.
Probably around how manydifferent KPIs would it have
been?
Probably at least 20.
Everything from noise on siteto truck movements to, obviously
the key ones being cost.
(17:29):
There's also waste in there,man hours.
They might have even measureddays or downtime set leave from
site.
Speaker 3 (17:39):
Yeah, how the people on site felt, billed in with it
by way of, I guess, cleaningthis feed, yeah, as opposed to
other products, and yeah, but wekind of some of those.
It was interesting, reallyinteresting for us, because we
started in pure CLT.
These were three-legged walkersand we went round about the
(18:02):
mouldy bush including stickframes, tying them together with
Simpson strong ties, other fireimplications that arose out of
that, and we ended up back wherewe started.
Speaker 2 (18:14):
Yeah, that's interesting.
And the three-storey walk-upjust for people to understand
the concept, it's an initiativewhere there's either a parcel of
land or a parcel of land aboutto be, with a house knocked down
, and there's a rebuild on thatsite in a three-story setup with
multiple apartments within thesame complex where you park your
(18:35):
car effectively on the streetand you walk up to your house.
Hence the name walk up.
And the.
I guess the engineering, julianand the architecture then had
to meet the manufacturing and soat the time at xlam, when we
were producing products down inthe south island, we had to
(18:56):
create these um, dfma, you know,designed for manufacture and
assembly from your drawings andfrom your engineering, so we
could ship it all the way upacross the.
It's the cook straight, isn'tit for you guys, between north
and south.
Yeah and so then it would go upto, you know, auckland, for
example, and end up on site, andthat was a revolutionary
(19:18):
process, and Housing New Zealandalso went through the
machinations themselves, didn'tthey?
They started out with thisdesign being mass timber moving
away to other panelised productsand then sort of coming back
again, but it really did set thebenchmark for what you could
achieve in terms of social,affordable housing, and what's
(19:40):
really surprising is that workwas done 10 years ago.
Like we're still trying tofigure it out, but you guys
already did it.
So why does it not take hold?
Is it politics?
Is it constructions resistantto change?
Is it government policy?
But we're screaming forsolutions globally, and there
(20:03):
was one.
Speaker 3 (20:06):
Yeah, that's a very good question.
We do feel a little like that,I guess.
As far as change ofgovernment's pipeline, I think
maybe the focus on sequesteringcarbon has helped.
I guess what we managed to dowas take that and start to use
(20:27):
it in the private sector andthat led directly to projects
like Haven Road, which is fivelevels of mass timber on a
concrete podium with 31apartments.
The timeline around thebuilding is a little bit murkier
.
We were sort of doing thestreet level walk-ups.
(20:48):
Our best of those were 8 and ahalf months from site works to
18 families moving into units.
Haven Road sort of got tiedback to choosing manufacturers
and delivery and you know, at atime here when there was a
little bit of developmentfunding up in there too.
(21:10):
But I'm finished now and it'ssort of a mix of affordable and
probably upper end penthousestuff in Nelson looking out to
the pool.
Speaker 2 (21:22):
Interesting.
Well, we started off sort of2012 2013.
Xlam came online to producemore commercially 2015, 2016,
and then produced its plant inum in australia and then decided
to feed in, and we've had redstag come online since then and
(21:43):
we've had Timberlab join RedStag.
So there's a lot of history.
Why don't we look back on someof your most memorable projects
in the last decade, julian?
What's the one that stands outto you and why?
Speaker 4 (21:59):
Well, we touched on the Beading Lodge.
It kind of it's still astandout.
Matched on the Beading Lodge,it kind of that's still a
standout.
I mean it's held the test oftime really that project.
And I guess one of the reasonswhy that particular project
stands out is that the firstthat well, certainly I'm aware
of anyway in New Zealand, firstfor interplanetary commercial
(22:21):
space and first of many things,not just structure we were
reasonably confident that wecould make the structure work.
We, you know, tested theproduct on.
I actually tested it on a coupleof my own developments but
flying around the world to seewhat was happening in Canada and
(22:42):
Europe at the time, which are agood 15 years ahead of
Australasia, so well tested inthe international space, but not
in New Zealand and certainlynot through our local councils.
So I guess, as a quick sidenote there, there are a few
(23:02):
differences from myunderstanding between New
Zealand and Australia and theconsenting process.
In New Zealand we have to gofor basically construction-level
documentation for buildingconsent and it's assessed by the
local council authority to meetthe building code, and they go
through a tremendous amount ofdetail.
So really kudos to Bernie forconvincing the client that hey,
(23:27):
we've got a good idea here andthere's going to be some
financial benefit, there's goingto be a lot of other benefits
as well, but it hadn't been doneand we honestly did not know
how the council would accept itand how they would interpret it.
So we had the structure, like Isaid, pretty confident, but we
(23:49):
had really very limited data onfire and acoustics in particular
, A little extrapolated fromoffshore, really, wasn't it?
Yeah, it was, I hadn't really.
I mean, I know XLM, excellent,doing their best at the time to
kind of get some testing andmaybe use international dust and
um inputting.
You know new zealand, douglas,fern, radiated pine, but I
(24:13):
hadn't been tested with thecouncil yet any of the
residential projects.
They don't require the samelevel of acoustics.
Speaker 3 (24:19):
This is not the answer I expected in any way,
peter, because I thought whatJulian was going to say.
My most memorable moment isBernie, coming back from the
coast where we had an aspirationto wrap a pokeka or a Maori
cape around the Pounamu Pathwaybuilding, the mass timber
building and the way we starteddesigning it was.
(24:41):
We had a couple of ribbons thatthe crew sort of strung across
this little 3D model of abuilding and Julian's comment
was it looks like you'redesigning an America's Cup sale
which could pick this buildingup and take it down the road.
Speaker 1 (24:57):
I thought you were going to.
Speaker 2 (24:59):
That's a good point.
So that little curve you weregoing to.
That's a good point.
Well, curveballs are the wayit's going to be thrown.
But I actually just want tomake a highlight before we move
on.
Bernie, is the consentingprocess in New Zealand being
different to that in Australiais stark.
Like we can over here putdrawings on the back of napkins,
(25:20):
present it to council with ourconcept and a word document and
get approval and worry about thedetails later.
Like it's very different,whereas for prefabrication and
for design you guys have to doall your decisions up front, you
have to convince the client tobe on board.
I mean, you've got to do a lotof work before you get to that
point and I always thought andit was always the case that it
(25:44):
was going to be far easier toget projects through that had a
DFMA type approach, because allthe decisions were done, the
amount of detail in the designwas done before we got to
consenting, whereas over hereit's the opposite way, which I
think is a testimony to what youdo over there and ensuring that
things work before it actuallygoes on site and less risky, I
(26:10):
would suggest, because you'vegot known knowns other than
unknown knowns up front and justto tag into it.
Eci fits into that right.
That's the connection that youguys spoke about.
Eci fits in because you'redoing all the decisions up front
.
It took a long time in otherparts of the world, and still is
now, to get that concept right.
So if anyone takes anythingaway from this podcast from New
(26:32):
Zealand, the consenting processmight seem like it's a
constraint.
It's actually an acceleratorwhen it comes to designing in a
different way with differentmaterials.
Speaker 3 (26:42):
Bernie over to you.
Speaker 2 (26:43):
What's your most memorable project?
Speaker 3 (26:48):
Well, the Permanente Pathway one was special.
Speaker 4 (26:54):
That was the America's Cup sale.
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3 (26:56):
I think that's sort of the culture, the cultural
element around it, and just, itwas a piece of land that had
been forfeited to the Crown,purchased back by Macafio and
Ngati Waewae, and the home,again at the Mwhirapa.
The back of the building is anexhibition by Weta Workshop.
(27:22):
So that's always been special.
But we wouldn't have got therewithout Hornby Club.
And the reason it's not so muchthe aesthetics that make that
important, make that important,it's the lessons that the client
(27:45):
was willing and trusting to letus pull together about mass
timber versus concrete and steel.
Now there are some softwarepackages that make this sort of
thing easier now One of those isVQuest, and working in with
Barry has been very cool.
But what we had to do withHornby was we had to sketch in
(28:06):
mass timber and concrete andsteel, then we had to put them
as elements together againsteach other and then we had to
sit down with the contractor whowe hoped got the job.
But we had to go full tenderthere.
We couldn't go, we weren'tallowed.
You know the constitution ofthe club didn't allow ECI Shit
(28:43):
limbs, government money usingthe Mimby, rapid, rapid, rapid
playbook, eci.
And so the whole thing not onlyis that we have not going to
live a show, but at least astage, the project.
So we've got it.
We've got a cost, which is ourdesign Bible, that we stick to.
We know what each of thosephases is, but we're also not
(29:05):
only is it happening, you'reavoiding escalation, because
we're digging the site out whilewe've still got everyone
sitting around the table talkingabout the best form of
superstructure.
So what Hornby did was you know.
Then we got right to the stagewhere it was the things we
didn't have to do like gymceilings because we wanted to
(29:25):
expose us to feet in athree-level atrium.
We didn't have to shut a very,very busy street in Christchurch
where we had to lift fromoutside our own space for
probably three months.
We could do it all from inside.
So those we would never haveconverted or had the confidence
(29:47):
to go that way and for theclient to have confidence in our
teams unless we had doneprobably 30 other projects
before that and we had firsthandseen those things and we could
call up these experiences.
We could convert the qs, whoalways has a different idea.
Keep the same one if you can,um, and and so on, yeah, yeah,
(30:11):
so so for me, pkb homie clubthat's interesting.
Speaker 2 (30:16):
Uh, I love the interlude of the sidebars in the
conversation, so don'tapologize for that.
That's fine.
I probably didn't mention atthe top end because we are
always very familiar with theterms, but ECI is early
contractor involvement.
There is also an engagementwith the supplier, early
supplier engagement, whichcoalesces with the involvement
(30:39):
from the contractor, whoever theprimary main contractor is
going to be.
Because if you don't have allthese people sitting around a
table collaborating, just likeyou two good gentlemen do, on a
regular basis, you will not getthe benefits of mass timber.
It just is very, very difficultto extract it.
The other thing that peopleshould know is you both know a
(31:01):
lot about the constructionprocess, not just your
individual sphere of influence,being in engineering or
architecture.
You've got almost like aproject management vision of
what you want to do with theprojects, which I'm presuming
provides the clients withassurances.
You know that.
They then know that you knowwhat you're doing and also that
(31:25):
you can then guide them down apathway, because half the
challenge is do I really want togo on this adventure with
Bernie and Julian or do I wantto go down the traditional,
which I know everyone else does?
So 99, 95% of the world doesthis traditional thing and we're
going to do this differentthing.
How do you guys keep ittogether that the clients come
(31:48):
on the adventure with you?
What's the secret sauce there?
Speaker 3 (31:51):
because I'm sure everyone in the world will want
to know that I, I think weprobably and some clients in
fact most of them don't knowthey want a mass timber building
.
You get the odd.
You know there's the oddexception Panami Parkway was one
(32:12):
of those but usually there'squeues that you can pick up from
the very early concept phase,and an example would be New
Zealand Artificial Rooms.
So here's the three key bits ofthe brief.
We are building this facilityright next to our existing
(32:33):
facility.
It must be fast and it must bequiet.
Speaker 4 (32:37):
Yeah, and that existing facility is a large
hospital.
Speaker 3 (32:40):
Yeah, pretty much yeah.
Number two is we are reallyinterested in sustainability.
Number three we really believein the aesthetic of keeping our
clients who have been throughtraumatic experiences and losing
(33:02):
lungs, whelping them in andhaving something that feels warm
.
Now, what a classic brief,doesn't it?
You just go.
Speaker 2 (33:12):
That is.
Speaker 1 (33:14):
You've just described the mass number building.
You have yeah.
Speaker 3 (33:19):
So you start to use these cues.
So you start to use these cuesand then, if they don't exist,
that's where you'll talk aboutother parcels of work and you'll
talk about the fact that thesethings have been fully accepted.
You're not the first.
That's always a bit of a fear.
(33:39):
This is no longer a novel wayof building and so, like you
sort of say, like 10 years inNew Zealand now, and we are
still getting iconic buildingspop up, but in the space we work
in, like Living Park forexample, but in the space we
work in, we still see it as aneveryday hero.
(34:02):
I wonder if one of the otherthings is we never describe
ourselves as timber purists, dowe?
We don't go.
You know you must have a masstimber building.
We'll go.
It's horses for courses.
Speaker 4 (34:17):
You know it's interesting, isn't it?
Because I think we started ourrelationship really started
around projects that were hybridand we've done this reasonably
big loop, I think, around youknow, full mass, the number of
full mass projects.
Certainly, looking at them thatway, and it's interesting, we
(34:37):
are pretty squarely back in thathybrid space.
Oh, without doubt, yeah, that'sa good point.
There's certain times where itthat hyperspace.
Oh, without doubt, yeah, that'sa good point.
Yeah, there's certain timeswhere it just makes sense to
throw a steel beam in yeah,that's right.
Yeah, a podium like what we havein Nelson and all this.
Yeah, so yeah.
Speaker 2 (34:56):
Where do we think the industry is going next,
gentlemen?
We put our crystal balls on thetable and we go.
What's the next thing?
I mean, is it an extension ofhybrid?
Have we come to the point wheretimber has reached its
renaissance and maturity andsaid there are now three main
(35:17):
primary sources of constructionmaterial concrete, steel and
timber?
Three main primary sources ofconstruction material concrete,
steel and timber.
Speaker 4 (35:30):
And it's about blending these appropriate for
the right project, for the righttime, for the right purpose.
We've always thought that Ithink timber well if I go out
there and say it timber in NewZealand at the moment, I think,
is struggling and there'spossibly a few reasons for that.
But one of the key reasons thatwe see anyway from a structural
point of view is the lack ofcompliance path or clear
(35:56):
compliance path.
It's not in the building code,it hasn't been and it's still
not.
I think New Zealand is prettyslow in that particular area.
It's a whole other separateconversation there.
But until that happens, you knowevery single project is still
(36:17):
considered an alternativesolution, like my brother-in-law
at Rocket Lab.
You know he jokes to me oftenand says you're still
prototyping.
You know every single project'sa prototype.
You know they work out theirprototype and then you know
produce a thousand of them ormore and send them to space.
So I think until we sort outour compliance path, I can see
(36:42):
it's, I don't know it's going tostruggle in some respects but
in others I'm very optimistic.
We've believed in it for about10 years.
We've proven it in our owndevelopments and many others.
It's most certainly got a greatplace, but where does it go
from here?
Pk.
Speaker 2 (37:00):
That's the question.
Speaker 3 (37:02):
I sort of think on one side of the ledger you've
got.
So you know, a couple of thekey major architectural
practices in New Zealand are nowsort of interested in designing
(37:24):
some lovely stuff.
Some local bodies are startingto take a bend towards timber
first.
90 Devonport Road in Tauranga,you know, is going to be an
enormous come-have-a-lot, Ithink, to other councils about
how you can go multi, I thinkthere are about seven levels
(37:45):
there, something like that, verymuch about post and beam
structure, isn't it?
Mix of LVL, blue lab, clt floors, you know.
So there are these projectsaround there, like in the
learnings.
I think we probably need somesmaller companies who are happy
(38:10):
to put the harder graft in foryour everyday project.
You know the stuff that we'redoing, which is three or four
levels, you know, and sort ofrounded that mid between 10 mil
to 20 mil, and you know you haveto work hard to do it.
But the further you go thechances are of it getting built
(38:32):
are better than it being apretty render.
You know, I think you yeah, itkind of have to be in for the
duration.
Speaker 2 (38:36):
I guess is my take pk yeah, I'm hearing four major
themes that have come out ofthis uh episode so far.
First one is mindset, and thatincludes having a value of
collaboration.
Second one is thinkinginnovatively but applying that
to the everyday, because I thinkthat translation aspect is
(38:59):
missing in a lot of uhcommunities, where they're
trying to do something differentbut it doesn't always stick.
Third, there's got to be atolerance within the market, and
I think you're right, julian,the hindrance of not having it
in a code, even if it's like adeemed to satisfy provision and
it's not very fancy givesconfidence to the market.
(39:21):
And then you're not alwaysdoing performance testing and
prototyping, as you say.
And the third thing is I thinkthat it's maturity over time.
I mean, you guys have done somany projects together and
there's a trust and there's areputation that comes along with
it, and so I always think ifyou look at the construction
(39:43):
industry change and you look atthings like 150 years of
concrete has come in, you knowthe time unit for change is not
one year, two years, three years, it's likely 50 years.
So if we look at the lastdecade, we're one fifth into
that change of a globalconstruction sector and I think
(40:04):
it will change and we havecircular economy coming in.
We've got biobased materials,we've got different design
parameters, we've gotprefabrication.
You know from all my ownresearch all the industry
players are pointing to changeis coming.
It's just how quick or how slowwill that change come?
So I think a future is bright,certainly bright over in New
(40:28):
Zealand.
While we wrap up here, julian,just give a big shout-out to
your business and what you doand how we can get in contact
with you.
Speaker 4 (40:37):
Yeah, so we're Ingeco .
It's our ENG CEO.
All Versions Engineeringcompany.
I'm one of the directors there.
In terms of contact, juststraight to me, julianconz, or
via Bernie.
Speaker 2 (40:54):
Well, considering you both sort of seem to live in
each other's pocket, it'sprobably okay to ring one phone
and the other will just behanded over to the other person,
right, Bernie?
Pretty much you did right thereyeah, how do we get in touch
with you at RM?
Speaker 3 (41:10):
Bernie B-E-R-N-I-E at r for red and M for Mike
designsconz.
But also, if you're smart,you'll put on the office
overlord, jodie J-O-D-I-E.
Rest of the email the same.
She runs the cutter here anddoes an amazing job of it.
Speaker 2 (41:32):
I'll also put your respective organisations in the
show notes for the episode sopeople can get to your website
through.
That means Closing words.
Gentlemen, what's the key thingthat you've learnt in 10 years
that you wish you could havetold yourself at the start of
the journey and whoever wants togo first with whoever can think
(41:53):
quickest?
Speaker 3 (41:55):
my one is go and see the manufacturers understand
what they can actually build andhow they can build it and the
optimum for them, and then thatwill stop you going down the
path of.
You know, a good example is thebeautifully set wood span
(42:18):
product.
You know they run that out at7.2 metres.
We've designed a couple ofbuildings with that.
That out at 7.2 metres.
We've designed a couple ofbuildings with that.
You know so until you knew thatyou were shortchanging yourself
and your client about someother products you can look at
we have found to a T.
They'll take you in, welcome,you give you a cup of tea, talk
(42:40):
about how things work best forthem.
You then convert that back toyour design.
I think that's my number one.
Yeah, that's a good one.
Speaker 2 (42:48):
It taps into DFMA, right.
Yeah For manufacturing, andthen Julian for assembly, right.
Speaker 4 (43:00):
Well, yeah, and a number of others.
That's a very, very good one,vern.
Hard to beat that, I think minewould be go and find yourself
of others.
That's a very, very good one,but it's hard to beat that, I
think mine would be go and findyourself a designer or an
architect that has the good oldKiwi and Australian humility,
that is willing to listen,that's willing to bring the
right people around the tableearly.
Speaker 2 (43:22):
That's a really wise choice in terms of the people
making the decision about whothey're going to go with as a
team, and I guess you guys wouldnot have any problems if
someone reached out and said hey, I'd like to take some of your
wisdom.
Speaker 3 (43:39):
No no we've always been like that yeah, yeah, no,
not at all, we're an open likethat.
Speaker 2 (43:44):
Yeah, yeah, no, not at all.
Speaker 4 (43:44):
We're an open book, yeah.
Speaker 2 (43:46):
I think the other thing that probably isn't noted
all that often, julian, but isyour work in working with people
like X-Lam to support thedevelopment of engineering
calculations and design guides,and how close you actually work
with people like Sam Leslie backin the day in the early days to
really drive the innovation,and likewise with you, bernie,
(44:10):
working with people like Garywho was involved in Prefab NZ as
it was called back then,offsite NZ.
Now there was a true industrycollaboration to support and
this mimics what actuallyhappened in Central Europe
around Austria and Italy, etcetera, to try and develop
Germany, to develop the masstimber market at the very start
(44:34):
and the genesis of it back inthe 90s, which is what grew to
prominence and then exploded outinto the world since sort of.
You know, forte building landedin Melbourne, beardley
backpackers landed in NewZealand, that house in the UK,
and the rest is history righttotally, yeah, 100%, I think.
Speaker 4 (44:53):
To add to Bernie's pick of finding a manufacturer,
I feel like New Zealandmanufacturers have done us more
of a favour than what we've donethem.
I feel, like we've done them.
I feel like we've learnt.
We wouldn't be where we aretoday if it wasn't for X-Lamb,
(45:15):
Redstack, Timberlab, Tech, Lamb,Woodspan the good New Zealand
suppliers.
Speaker 3 (45:22):
Part of why we're a little bit reluctant to go
offshore for supply because wejust kind of feel some I think
loyalty there and we know thereare some savings and there's
different stories about whatthey are.
But I mean, how do you beat arelationship Like you're talking
about?
Seeing Leslie?
You know now Timberland RedStag was a key influence in the
(45:45):
canopy at Punaamu pathway 1500pieces, excluding fixings,
fittings, of the canopy itself,made in five different factories
around New Zealand and hisinput into that was massive.
Speaker 4 (45:59):
Yeah, just using that just quickly as an example.
Was that you know we had thatoriginal ribbon, right, yeah?
Or you know, hey, you know, tryand make this stand up, yeah,
and the truth of the matter isthat it was a beautiful concept
and I really wanted it to workstructurally and we probably
could have structurally butwould have been difficult to
manufacture.
(46:20):
Yeah, and with sam leslie'sinput, which is hard to money
and that's what I'm getting atis that we had a very limited
budget for it.
So without the manufacturer'sinput, that would have never
been built.
No, it's really as simple asthat.
Speaker 2 (46:37):
I think that's got to equate into a discount on the
next job, gents, I think ifthere's a Marty or a Jason or a
Sam listening to this.
Speaker 4 (46:47):
I do have a house to build.
Speaker 3 (46:49):
Yeah, I'm going to do it for Big Slam, or Marty,
who's going to rank for Redstone?
One of the two of them.
Speaker 2 (46:55):
I think Sam will be ringing you guys going.
Thanks for the shout-out atmultiple time points in the
podcast.
To be honest, I'll have to makesure I tag him in online on
LinkedIn when the episode comesout.
But no, hey, listen, there is15 to 20 hours of content we
(47:16):
could go through andunfortunately we don't have that
much time.
However, I just wanted to saythank you so much for coming on
the podcast for the last 40minutes and, you know, chatting
about what's been happening.
Uh, we might have to do aversion two and maybe what we
could do is dissect uh buildingand actually go through what
(47:36):
were the steps in making itsuccessful at each stage,
because I think the legacy ofsort of 10, 13 years that you've
got in this industry sector andtranslating that into success
could be very valuable forpeople who are starting out in
other parts of the world wherethey've actually got nothing and
wanting to know how to startout.
So if you'd be agreeable tothat in the future, that would
(48:00):
be great.
Speaker 3 (48:02):
Oh look, I'd suggest sitting at your desk with a
bottle of Pinot, between a PKand that one.
Speaker 2 (48:09):
I think even better than that, it'll have to be
March 2026, the Paddock ClubFormula One overlooking McLaren
Garage Awesome wins Oscar'sgoing pretty good, isn't he
Oscar's going pretty good?
Speaker 4 (48:24):
Thanks for thinking of kept asking Oscar.
You're only going pretty good,isn't it?
Oscar's going to win.
Thanks for thinking of us, mate.
Speaker 3 (48:28):
Congrats on your tenure and um.
That's fantastic and reallygreat to touch base again,
though.
Speaker 2 (48:34):
Yeah, thank you.
Thanks, julian, thank you, anduh, yeah, thank you.
Ciao, pleasure, thank you.
Ladies and gentlemen, we are live.
This is the moment you all havebeen waiting for.
It's time for the globalsensation, the one, the only the
(00:26):
undisputed heavyweight podcastin the world the Mass Timber
Construction Podcast.
And now here's Paul Kramer,your host.
Speaker 2 (00:49):
Good morning, good afternoon or good evening.
Wherever you are in the worldtoday, welcome to the Mass
Timber Construction Podcast.
This is Paul Kramer, back withanother exciting episode.
And when I say that I am reallykeen to do this particular
podcast episode, it's true, notjust because the two gentlemen
that are sitting in the otherroom on the other side of the
ditch are in that room and itwould be highly embarrassing for
(01:10):
me to say anything otherwise infront of their presence, but I
really do think that we have avery, very special episode to
bring to you today.
So, my compadres in, I guess,the industry in New Zealand,
over the last sort of probablyseven years that I was involved
in the industry sector, and nowit's 10 years since we've sort
(01:31):
of known each other.
I have two people, I haveBernie and I have Julian.
Bernie, tell everyone who youare, what you do and where you
come from, and then Julian willkick over to you.
Speaker 3 (01:42):
But welcome to the podcast gents you come from and
then Julian will kick over toyou, but welcome to the podcast
gents.
Oh, pk, thanks for having us.
We've been watching yourpodcast emerge over.
The last must be three or fouryears.
Now Five years.
Five time flies.
Five years.
It's great to catch you up,more than anything.
But so I founded RM Designs in1997.
(02:05):
And we're architecturaldesigners, christchurch-based.
We've always been pretty steadyaround a staff number of 10.
So they've always, I guess, hadan eye to the future about
what's going on.
We started in a lot of fit-outdesign actually mostly
(02:26):
hospitality.
And then when Christchurch hadthe earthquake, we had sort of
merged into full-blownarchitecture at that stage and
we were into larger buildingsand our minds turned to
alternate building solutions.
And our minds turned toalternate building solutions
really subsequent to the quake,based on lack of labour, lack of
(02:57):
good contractors and justseeking a way of doing things
better, so it was about 2012,2013, when I met Julian.
Speaker 2 (03:07):
That's a great segue, julian.
Tell everyone who's in masstimber construction, listening
land all over the globe, who youare.
No pressure, just give anintroduction, right no worries,
okay, yeah, g'day everyone.
Speaker 4 (03:16):
Um, I'm julian addington, uh, one of the
founding directors of.
I've been running about 15 oddyears and, like Bernie said,
we're sort of linked up togetherfor, yeah, it must be at least
about seven or eight, possiblyeven 10 now.
So, yeah, we're predominantlystructural engineers, although
(03:39):
in the last few years we'vebrought in civil and geotech
really to support our structuraloffering.
I can talk more about thatlater.
But Mass Timber's been a realpassion and it's how Bertie and
I connected actually back thoseyears.
We were involved right at thestart when Mass Timber first
(04:00):
arrived in New Zealand PK youwould have remembered this well
and we got a knock on our door.
We were at the time playingaround with a SIP panel, had a
44-gallon drum in the back shedand doing crack tests and the
rest of it, and Robert and IanJack and Sam Leslie turned up
(04:22):
with this very interestinglooking product and we quickly
scrapped what we were doing andsaid, no, that looks awesome.
So we jumped on board with themand helped sort of write the
design guide.
Speaker 1 (04:41):
Helped with, you know the engineering side of the
early testing and then, fromthere, the journey.
Speaker 4 (04:45):
It's been fun, hasn't the journey?
It's been it's been fun, hasn'tit?
It's been a lot of fun, yeah,and we've just learned a
tremendous amount along the way.
Still learning, of course, onevery, on every job.
I think, bernie, your line froma couple of months ago, I think
, summed it up pretty well we'veworked on what?
50 projects together orsomething, and we're yet to get
one right.
Speaker 3 (05:05):
There's always something right Always you get a
little bit of mentalimprovement.
Pk isn't there, you knowwhatever you're doing.
But yeah, so it was a slidingdoors moment, really looking
back at it, because we wereoffered a job to take it through
, to develop design on a sitewhich was a very poor quality
(05:28):
here and I guess our main avenuereally Bailey Avenue and behind
a pub, and the client waslooking for two floors of sort
of three and a half starbackpacker accommodation and the
first idea we had we playedaround with containers and then
kind of went like you know, theoffshore risk and reward thing
(05:51):
didn't sit well with us.
They weren't from Vietnam, werethey?
They were yeah, yeah.
So I think we learnt enoughabout them.
On volumetric, you know we haverevisited it but it kind of
never really grabbed us.
What we did know about thisparticular site was that the
project wouldn't be built onconcrete and steel because
(06:13):
whoever was going to have acrack at it was going to expend
more than 20% of the budgetgetting out of the ground.
So we met Sam, leslie and therest of the crew from X-Lam and
Julian and we started to playaround with it.
We got out of the ground for 7%or 8% of the budget and from
that time on we didn't look back.
(06:34):
Did it work out?
Speaker 4 (06:36):
to me it was about 10% of the overall budget
difference, wasn't it Because wemanaged to lighten the
structure by using gas timber?
It was a key benefit at thattime, wasn't it?
That we managed to lighten thestructure by using gas timber
was a key benefit at that time,wasn't?
Speaker 3 (06:46):
it.
That was the key thing and Ithink we kind of you know, if
you look, we learned to applyother lessons from that.
But it took us a bit of time,okay, because we all know how it
goes working with a headcontractor who's only versed in
conventional and they can bereluctant to open their box on
P&G.
So you really don't know whathappens until you end up with a
(07:08):
good five or six or even sevenof your own case studies that
you can then talk to goodcontractors, but maybe
uninitiated, in the mass timberindustry.
So that was number one.
Speaker 2 (07:23):
Billy was an amazing project because it really
exemplified using mass timber inits purest form, you know,
using it for a structural,honeycomb-type structure layout
design.
For anyone trying to imaginethis backpackers, it was
industrial sort of aestheticpanels, this sort of hybrid
between the amount of knots thatwere in the timber versus
(07:46):
trying to maintain an aestheticand it actually did a good job
right and staying in the place,like when you are actually in
the presence of the place.
It's quite calming and soothingwith the mass timber surrounding
and cocooning you.
But the innovation for both ofyou that I like to commend and I
actually say I still use it totoday was dropping down the
(08:08):
ceiling in the corridor areas tofacilitate the MEP, the
maintenance and the servicessector that then going to funnel
services in and it actuallydidn't change too much the
presence of the space becauseyou'd walk in this corridor area
(08:30):
, have a lower ceiling but bythe time you walked in a room it
didn't equate to being adifference, because people don't
look up when they're walkingaround, they look straight ahead
.
So all they looked at was theview that was in front of them.
Great project, really wellexecuted, still an exemplary
project, and there's pictures onthe X-Lam website and probably
(08:51):
like yourselves as well, but ifanyone wants to go and have a
look at the Bealee Backpackers,you can do that.
I also might just say that,because you two blokes are from
Kiwiland, there will be atranscription of this entire
conversation so people canunderstand it Sorry.
Speaker 3 (09:13):
It's a Sunday, I can see it coming.
Speaker 2 (09:17):
I have one question for you, right?
Because I know in the land ofreality, architects and
engineers sometimes struggle toget along.
What's the secret to yourrelationship over 10 years plus,
from 2012 to now 13 years togetting along and doing 50
(09:37):
projects together?
Speaker 4 (09:39):
That'd be a lot of adventure, wouldn't?
Speaker 3 (09:41):
it?
I think it probably is.
Yeah, I mean, we're both umoutside of work, both do what I
think some people would considerextreme, um, extreme adventure
sport.
Uh, particularly Julian wholike skis off the top of 3000
meter mountains, 3000 meter highmountains, and I'm just a bit
(10:02):
of a runner, but I think we'reprobably so.
We've really enjoyed thosetimes together, so, but we
became friends.
After we're working together, Ithink, um, you know, we've had
RM's, got this, I guess, almosta throwaway line.
You know, no one of us is assmart as all of us, and it's
(10:22):
just incredible during theinception of a project where
good ideas will come from, andso that encompasses both our
teams, but also some really goodother external consultants, who
doesn't take you long to workout who they are when you bring
them into the fold about theones who are actually looking
(10:44):
for solutions from the time theysit around the desk with a few
sketches on it or at least startpointing out the issues that
will need to be solved.
Speaker 4 (10:55):
I think maybe it's a bit of that.
Yeah, I think what you'retouching on there.
Pk is probably, I think, one ofthe kind of key recipes I think
for making Mass Timber Projectsuccessful, and that is, if I
can speak for Bernie, you'reincredibly unique in the market
(11:21):
with the mindset of just whatyou've said of trying to bring
the right people around thetable right at the start of the
project.
And part of that correct me ifI'm wrong here but part of that,
I think, is probably due tothat hospitality experience
where you've had to thinkoff-site manufacturing from the
(11:42):
start of it.
So you walk into a place, youknow maybe the overall bulk of
what you need to fit it.
So you walk into a place, youknow maybe the overall bulk of
what you need to fit out, forexample, in a bar, and it's all
joinerism.
And when you look at a masstimber project, that's what it
is.
It's just a big kitchen set andright from the very inception of
a job you have to be thinkingabout what's our access onto the
(12:04):
site?
How big can the truck be?
How are the panels?
How are we going to arrangethem here?
Where are we going to put thecrane All the way through to
your intricate details of PK,what you touched on with running
the services before.
But all of that needs to bethought of at the front end.
If it's not, then you've got abig cop up, haven't you?
And we've seen that.
(12:25):
We've learned the hard way onsome jobs where, right late in
the project, you know someone'sturned up for one reason or
another, they haven't been partof the team.
Might be a bummer, for example,on one job turned up thinking
it was just another traditionalconstruction, and they go and
smack the massive hole throughsome of that kind of key
(12:46):
connections that had been, youknow, modelled to massive detail
a year ago.
So I think what you're touchingon there is a really kind of key
for me, anyway.
If you're trying to make a masstimber project successful, cost
effective, hitting all thevarious metrics that you've got,
it's all about the right teamearly.
Speaker 2 (13:11):
That synergy, Bernie, is something you have to hold
as a value.
Collaboration, tolerance ofothers, acceptance, working
together, team-oriented thesesound like corporate culture
taglines, don't they?
But in reality the translationhas to be that you have to hold
(13:33):
these as an individual for thegroup to hold and conserve those
values too, on a project.
Speaker 3 (13:40):
Oh, you know, like definitely you know.
I think you know we might havebrought the right thinking to
the table, but we were both verylucky to have it fine-tuned by
Gary Caulfield, g1, who was astrong influence in how we
started thinking, how we weregoing about things, and who
(14:01):
really introduced me to this.
What was novel 10 years ago?
This idea of ECI, where thehead contractor's sitting around
the table while you're stillmaking a decision, maybe on who
your manufacturing supplies are.
They may follow a short timeafterwards because you've got to
do something.
Okay, they're dimensionallydifferent, but there's a process
(14:24):
there and you know, I thinkthat has been.
If there's a few things thatset us aside, that's one of them
.
Just garnering the experienceof boys and girls who've been
building for like 30 years, youknow like it's incredibly
valuable.
Speaker 2 (14:44):
Yeah, gary is a pivotal player not only in
Australia and New Zealand, butalso did a lot of work in
Singapore with the NTU project,and our thoughts and wishes are
with him and his family.
He left this world a few yearsago and it was not a good way.
(15:04):
So just a shout out in a segueplease look after your mental
health when you're in theconstruction sector.
It can be very, very brutal attimes, but what you can find in
the lessons that come from thelegacy of people like Gary is
this sensibility of trying to dothings in a different way and
think differently, and I guessApple exemplified think
(15:25):
differently as a concept whenthey launched their Macintosh
computers, and we're still, tothis day, trying to apply
thinking differently to theconstruction industry, and it
sounds like you guys have founda formula.
Speaker 3 (15:41):
Yeah, Well we're still working on it, aren't we?
Yeah, yeah, like, what sort ofhappened next from there was
bloody incredible.
You know you hear these storiesfrom people about.
You know how did you sell yourhouse?
Someone knocked on my door andwanted to pay for it.
Well, we had the businessversion of that, really, where
(16:02):
Alistair Miles good, strong,local company here, who we built
papinui club at the same time,which was a big mass timber
portals out of hunters andnelson at the time pk and um he
had a connection to housing newzealand.
And again you talk about theprojects that barely the barely
lodge backpacker once stimulated.
(16:23):
That led to a research anddevelopment project with Housing
New Zealand.
Now, a few things happenedalong the way.
I think we built 12 or 13.
Four of them fell into the R&Dmodel.
That was a real pivotal moment,we feel, for our teams and, you
(16:44):
know, probably in all honesty,for mass timber industry.
Speaker 4 (16:47):
Yeah, there was an opportunity there where we got
to pitch mass timber against youknow four different
methodologies.
So we had a traditionalmethodology and then there was
even a concrete one in therewasn't there.
There was, yeah, our hybridmodel versus full CLT, and they
(17:08):
actually put a lot of resourcesinto measuring.
Probably around how manydifferent KPIs would it have
been?
Probably at least 20.
Everything from noise on siteto truck movements to, obviously
the key ones being cost.
(17:29):
There's also waste in there,man hours.
They might have even measureddays or downtime set leave from
site.
Speaker 3 (17:39):
Yeah, how the people on site felt, billed in with it
by way of, I guess, cleaningthis feed, yeah, as opposed to
other products, and yeah, but wekind of some of those.
It was interesting, reallyinteresting for us, because we
started in pure CLT.
These were three-legged walkersand we went round about the
(18:02):
mouldy bush including stickframes, tying them together with
Simpson strong ties, other fireimplications that arose out of
that, and we ended up back wherewe started.
Speaker 2 (18:14):
Yeah, that's interesting.
And the three-storey walk-upjust for people to understand
the concept, it's an initiativewhere there's either a parcel of
land or a parcel of land aboutto be, with a house knocked down
, and there's a rebuild on thatsite in a three-story setup with
multiple apartments within thesame complex where you park your
(18:35):
car effectively on the streetand you walk up to your house.
Hence the name walk up.
And the.
I guess the engineering, julianand the architecture then had
to meet the manufacturing and soat the time at xlam, when we
were producing products down inthe south island, we had to
(18:56):
create these um, dfma, you know,designed for manufacture and
assembly from your drawings andfrom your engineering, so we
could ship it all the way upacross the.
It's the cook straight, isn'tit for you guys, between north
and south.
Yeah and so then it would go upto, you know, auckland, for
example, and end up on site, andthat was a revolutionary
(19:18):
process, and Housing New Zealandalso went through the
machinations themselves, didn'tthey?
They started out with thisdesign being mass timber moving
away to other panelised productsand then sort of coming back
again, but it really did set thebenchmark for what you could
achieve in terms of social,affordable housing, and what's
(19:40):
really surprising is that workwas done 10 years ago.
Like we're still trying tofigure it out, but you guys
already did it.
So why does it not take hold?
Is it politics?
Is it constructions resistantto change?
Is it government policy?
But we're screaming forsolutions globally, and there
(20:03):
was one.
Speaker 3 (20:06):
Yeah, that's a very good question.
We do feel a little like that,I guess.
As far as change ofgovernment's pipeline, I think
maybe the focus on sequesteringcarbon has helped.
I guess what we managed to dowas take that and start to use
(20:27):
it in the private sector andthat led directly to projects
like Haven Road, which is fivelevels of mass timber on a
concrete podium with 31apartments.
The timeline around thebuilding is a little bit murkier
.
We were sort of doing thestreet level walk-ups.
(20:48):
Our best of those were 8 and ahalf months from site works to
18 families moving into units.
Haven Road sort of got tiedback to choosing manufacturers
and delivery and you know, at atime here when there was a
little bit of developmentfunding up in there too.
(21:10):
But I'm finished now and it'ssort of a mix of affordable and
probably upper end penthousestuff in Nelson looking out to
the pool.
Speaker 2 (21:22):
Interesting.
Well, we started off sort of2012 2013.
Xlam came online to producemore commercially 2015, 2016,
and then produced its plant inum in australia and then decided
to feed in, and we've had redstag come online since then and
(21:43):
we've had Timberlab join RedStag.
So there's a lot of history.
Why don't we look back on someof your most memorable projects
in the last decade, julian?
What's the one that stands outto you and why?
Speaker 4 (21:59):
Well, we touched on the Beading Lodge.
It kind of it's still astandout.
Matched on the Beading Lodge,it kind of that's still a
standout.
I mean it's held the test oftime really that project.
And I guess one of the reasonswhy that particular project
stands out is that the firstthat well, certainly I'm aware
of anyway in New Zealand, firstfor interplanetary commercial
(22:21):
space and first of many things,not just structure we were
reasonably confident that wecould make the structure work.
We, you know, tested theproduct on.
I actually tested it on a coupleof my own developments but
flying around the world to seewhat was happening in Canada and
(22:42):
Europe at the time, which are agood 15 years ahead of
Australasia, so well tested inthe international space, but not
in New Zealand and certainlynot through our local councils.
So I guess, as a quick sidenote there, there are a few
(23:02):
differences from myunderstanding between New
Zealand and Australia and theconsenting process.
In New Zealand we have to gofor basically construction-level
documentation for buildingconsent and it's assessed by the
local council authority to meetthe building code, and they go
through a tremendous amount ofdetail.
So really kudos to Bernie forconvincing the client that hey,
(23:27):
we've got a good idea here andthere's going to be some
financial benefit, there's goingto be a lot of other benefits
as well, but it hadn't been doneand we honestly did not know
how the council would accept itand how they would interpret it.
So we had the structure, like Isaid, pretty confident, but we
(23:49):
had really very limited data onfire and acoustics in particular
, A little extrapolated fromoffshore, really, wasn't it?
Yeah, it was, I hadn't really.
I mean, I know XLM, excellent,doing their best at the time to
kind of get some testing andmaybe use international dust and
um inputting.
You know new zealand, douglas,fern, radiated pine, but I
(24:13):
hadn't been tested with thecouncil yet any of the
residential projects.
They don't require the samelevel of acoustics.
Speaker 3 (24:19):
This is not the answer I expected in any way,
peter, because I thought whatJulian was going to say.
My most memorable moment isBernie, coming back from the
coast where we had an aspirationto wrap a pokeka or a Maori
cape around the Pounamu Pathwaybuilding, the mass timber
building and the way we starteddesigning it was.
(24:41):
We had a couple of ribbons thatthe crew sort of strung across
this little 3D model of abuilding and Julian's comment
was it looks like you'redesigning an America's Cup sale
which could pick this buildingup and take it down the road.
Speaker 1 (24:57):
I thought you were going to.
Speaker 2 (24:59):
That's a good point.
So that little curve you weregoing to.
That's a good point.
Well, curveballs are the wayit's going to be thrown.
But I actually just want tomake a highlight before we move
on.
Bernie, is the consentingprocess in New Zealand being
different to that in Australiais stark.
Like we can over here putdrawings on the back of napkins,
(25:20):
present it to council with ourconcept and a word document and
get approval and worry about thedetails later.
Like it's very different,whereas for prefabrication and
for design you guys have to doall your decisions up front, you
have to convince the client tobe on board.
I mean, you've got to do a lotof work before you get to that
point and I always thought andit was always the case that it
(25:44):
was going to be far easier toget projects through that had a
DFMA type approach, because allthe decisions were done, the
amount of detail in the designwas done before we got to
consenting, whereas over hereit's the opposite way, which I
think is a testimony to what youdo over there and ensuring that
things work before it actuallygoes on site and less risky, I
(26:10):
would suggest, because you'vegot known knowns other than
unknown knowns up front and justto tag into it.
Eci fits into that right.
That's the connection that youguys spoke about.
Eci fits in because you'redoing all the decisions up front
.
It took a long time in otherparts of the world, and still is
now, to get that concept right.
So if anyone takes anythingaway from this podcast from New
(26:32):
Zealand, the consenting processmight seem like it's a
constraint.
It's actually an acceleratorwhen it comes to designing in a
different way with differentmaterials.
Speaker 3 (26:42):
Bernie over to you.
Speaker 2 (26:43):
What's your most memorable project?
Speaker 3 (26:48):
Well, the Permanente Pathway one was special.
Speaker 4 (26:54):
That was the America's Cup sale.
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3 (26:56):
I think that's sort of the culture, the cultural
element around it, and just, itwas a piece of land that had
been forfeited to the Crown,purchased back by Macafio and
Ngati Waewae, and the home,again at the Mwhirapa.
The back of the building is anexhibition by Weta Workshop.
(27:22):
So that's always been special.
But we wouldn't have got therewithout Hornby Club.
And the reason it's not so muchthe aesthetics that make that
important, make that important,it's the lessons that the client
(27:45):
was willing and trusting to letus pull together about mass
timber versus concrete and steel.
Now there are some softwarepackages that make this sort of
thing easier now One of those isVQuest, and working in with
Barry has been very cool.
But what we had to do withHornby was we had to sketch in
(28:06):
mass timber and concrete andsteel, then we had to put them
as elements together againsteach other and then we had to
sit down with the contractor whowe hoped got the job.
But we had to go full tenderthere.
We couldn't go, we weren'tallowed.
You know the constitution ofthe club didn't allow ECI Shit
(28:43):
limbs, government money usingthe Mimby, rapid, rapid, rapid
playbook, eci.
And so the whole thing not onlyis that we have not going to
live a show, but at least astage, the project.
So we've got it.
We've got a cost, which is ourdesign Bible, that we stick to.
We know what each of thosephases is, but we're also not
(29:05):
only is it happening, you'reavoiding escalation, because
we're digging the site out whilewe've still got everyone
sitting around the table talkingabout the best form of
superstructure.
So what Hornby did was you know.
Then we got right to the stagewhere it was the things we
didn't have to do like gymceilings because we wanted to
(29:25):
expose us to feet in athree-level atrium.
We didn't have to shut a very,very busy street in Christchurch
where we had to lift fromoutside our own space for
probably three months.
We could do it all from inside.
So those we would never haveconverted or had the confidence
(29:47):
to go that way and for theclient to have confidence in our
teams unless we had doneprobably 30 other projects
before that and we had firsthandseen those things and we could
call up these experiences.
We could convert the qs, whoalways has a different idea.
Keep the same one if you can,um, and and so on, yeah, yeah,
(30:11):
so so for me, pkb homie clubthat's interesting.
Speaker 2 (30:16):
Uh, I love the interlude of the sidebars in the
conversation, so don'tapologize for that.
That's fine.
I probably didn't mention atthe top end because we are
always very familiar with theterms, but ECI is early
contractor involvement.
There is also an engagementwith the supplier, early
supplier engagement, whichcoalesces with the involvement
(30:39):
from the contractor, whoever theprimary main contractor is
going to be.
Because if you don't have allthese people sitting around a
table collaborating, just likeyou two good gentlemen do, on a
regular basis, you will not getthe benefits of mass timber.
It just is very, very difficultto extract it.
The other thing that peopleshould know is you both know a
(31:01):
lot about the constructionprocess, not just your
individual sphere of influence,being in engineering or
architecture.
You've got almost like aproject management vision of
what you want to do with theprojects, which I'm presuming
provides the clients withassurances.
You know that.
They then know that you knowwhat you're doing and also that
(31:25):
you can then guide them down apathway, because half the
challenge is do I really want togo on this adventure with
Bernie and Julian or do I wantto go down the traditional,
which I know everyone else does?
So 99, 95% of the world doesthis traditional thing and we're
going to do this differentthing.
How do you guys keep ittogether that the clients come
(31:48):
on the adventure with you?
What's the secret sauce there?
Speaker 3 (31:51):
because I'm sure everyone in the world will want
to know that I, I think weprobably and some clients in
fact most of them don't knowthey want a mass timber building
.
You get the odd.
You know there's the oddexception Panami Parkway was one
(32:12):
of those but usually there'squeues that you can pick up from
the very early concept phase,and an example would be New
Zealand Artificial Rooms.
So here's the three key bits ofthe brief.
We are building this facilityright next to our existing
(32:33):
facility.
It must be fast and it must bequiet.
Speaker 4 (32:37):
Yeah, and that existing facility is a large
hospital.
Speaker 3 (32:40):
Yeah, pretty much yeah.
Number two is we are reallyinterested in sustainability.
Number three we really believein the aesthetic of keeping our
clients who have been throughtraumatic experiences and losing
(33:02):
lungs, whelping them in andhaving something that feels warm
.
Now, what a classic brief,doesn't it?
You just go.
Speaker 2 (33:12):
That is.
Speaker 1 (33:14):
You've just described the mass number building.
You have yeah.
Speaker 3 (33:19):
So you start to use these cues.
So you start to use these cuesand then, if they don't exist,
that's where you'll talk aboutother parcels of work and you'll
talk about the fact that thesethings have been fully accepted.
You're not the first.
That's always a bit of a fear.
(33:39):
This is no longer a novel wayof building and so, like you
sort of say, like 10 years inNew Zealand now, and we are
still getting iconic buildingspop up, but in the space we work
in, like Living Park forexample, but in the space we
work in, we still see it as aneveryday hero.
(34:02):
I wonder if one of the otherthings is we never describe
ourselves as timber purists, dowe?
We don't go.
You know you must have a masstimber building.
We'll go.
It's horses for courses.
Speaker 4 (34:17):
You know it's interesting, isn't it?
Because I think we started ourrelationship really started
around projects that were hybridand we've done this reasonably
big loop, I think, around youknow, full mass, the number of
full mass projects.
Certainly, looking at them thatway, and it's interesting, we
(34:37):
are pretty squarely back in thathybrid space.
Oh, without doubt, yeah, that'sa good point.
There's certain times where itthat hyperspace.
Oh, without doubt, yeah, that'sa good point.
Yeah, there's certain timeswhere it just makes sense to
throw a steel beam in yeah,that's right.
Yeah, a podium like what we havein Nelson and all this.
Yeah, so yeah.
Speaker 2 (34:56):
Where do we think the industry is going next,
gentlemen?
We put our crystal balls on thetable and we go.
What's the next thing?
I mean, is it an extension ofhybrid?
Have we come to the point wheretimber has reached its
renaissance and maturity andsaid there are now three main
(35:17):
primary sources of constructionmaterial concrete, steel and
timber?
Three main primary sources ofconstruction material concrete,
steel and timber.
Speaker 4 (35:30):
And it's about blending these appropriate for
the right project, for the righttime, for the right purpose.
We've always thought that Ithink timber well if I go out
there and say it timber in NewZealand at the moment, I think,
is struggling and there'spossibly a few reasons for that.
But one of the key reasons thatwe see anyway from a structural
point of view is the lack ofcompliance path or clear
(35:56):
compliance path.
It's not in the building code,it hasn't been and it's still
not.
I think New Zealand is prettyslow in that particular area.
It's a whole other separateconversation there.
But until that happens, you knowevery single project is still
(36:17):
considered an alternativesolution, like my brother-in-law
at Rocket Lab.
You know he jokes to me oftenand says you're still
prototyping.
You know every single project'sa prototype.
You know they work out theirprototype and then you know
produce a thousand of them ormore and send them to space.
So I think until we sort outour compliance path, I can see
(36:42):
it's, I don't know it's going tostruggle in some respects but
in others I'm very optimistic.
We've believed in it for about10 years.
We've proven it in our owndevelopments and many others.
It's most certainly got a greatplace, but where does it go
from here?
Pk.
Speaker 2 (37:00):
That's the question.
Speaker 3 (37:02):
I sort of think on one side of the ledger you've
got.
So you know, a couple of thekey major architectural
practices in New Zealand are nowsort of interested in designing
(37:24):
some lovely stuff.
Some local bodies are startingto take a bend towards timber
first.
90 Devonport Road in Tauranga,you know, is going to be an
enormous come-have-a-lot, Ithink, to other councils about
how you can go multi, I thinkthere are about seven levels
(37:45):
there, something like that, verymuch about post and beam
structure, isn't it?
Mix of LVL, blue lab, clt floors, you know.
So there are these projectsaround there, like in the
learnings.
I think we probably need somesmaller companies who are happy
(38:10):
to put the harder graft in foryour everyday project.
You know the stuff that we'redoing, which is three or four
levels, you know, and sort ofrounded that mid between 10 mil
to 20 mil, and you know you haveto work hard to do it.
But the further you go thechances are of it getting built
(38:32):
are better than it being apretty render.
You know, I think you yeah, itkind of have to be in for the
duration.
Speaker 2 (38:36):
I guess is my take pk yeah, I'm hearing four major
themes that have come out ofthis uh episode so far.
First one is mindset, and thatincludes having a value of
collaboration.
Second one is thinkinginnovatively but applying that
to the everyday, because I thinkthat translation aspect is
(38:59):
missing in a lot of uhcommunities, where they're
trying to do something differentbut it doesn't always stick.
Third, there's got to be atolerance within the market, and
I think you're right, julian,the hindrance of not having it
in a code, even if it's like adeemed to satisfy provision and
it's not very fancy givesconfidence to the market.
(39:21):
And then you're not alwaysdoing performance testing and
prototyping, as you say.
And the third thing is I thinkthat it's maturity over time.
I mean, you guys have done somany projects together and
there's a trust and there's areputation that comes along with
it, and so I always think ifyou look at the construction
(39:43):
industry change and you look atthings like 150 years of
concrete has come in, you knowthe time unit for change is not
one year, two years, three years, it's likely 50 years.
So if we look at the lastdecade, we're one fifth into
that change of a globalconstruction sector and I think
(40:04):
it will change and we havecircular economy coming in.
We've got biobased materials,we've got different design
parameters, we've gotprefabrication.
You know from all my ownresearch all the industry
players are pointing to changeis coming.
It's just how quick or how slowwill that change come?
So I think a future is bright,certainly bright over in New
(40:28):
Zealand.
While we wrap up here, julian,just give a big shout-out to
your business and what you doand how we can get in contact
with you.
Speaker 4 (40:37):
Yeah, so we're Ingeco .
It's our ENG CEO.
All Versions Engineeringcompany.
I'm one of the directors there.
In terms of contact, juststraight to me, julianconz, or
via Bernie.
Speaker 2 (40:54):
Well, considering you both sort of seem to live in
each other's pocket, it'sprobably okay to ring one phone
and the other will just behanded over to the other person,
right, Bernie?
Pretty much you did right thereyeah, how do we get in touch
with you at RM?
Speaker 3 (41:10):
Bernie B-E-R-N-I-E at r for red and M for Mike
designsconz.
But also, if you're smart,you'll put on the office
overlord, jodie J-O-D-I-E.
Rest of the email the same.
She runs the cutter here anddoes an amazing job of it.
Speaker 2 (41:32):
I'll also put your respective organisations in the
show notes for the episode sopeople can get to your website
through.
That means Closing words.
Gentlemen, what's the key thingthat you've learnt in 10 years
that you wish you could havetold yourself at the start of
the journey and whoever wants togo first with whoever can think
(41:53):
quickest?
Speaker 3 (41:55):
my one is go and see the manufacturers understand
what they can actually build andhow they can build it and the
optimum for them, and then thatwill stop you going down the
path of.
You know, a good example is thebeautifully set wood span
(42:18):
product.
You know they run that out at7.2 metres.
We've designed a couple ofbuildings with that.
That out at 7.2 metres.
We've designed a couple ofbuildings with that.
You know so until you knew thatyou were shortchanging yourself
and your client about someother products you can look at
we have found to a T.
They'll take you in, welcome,you give you a cup of tea, talk
(42:40):
about how things work best forthem.
You then convert that back toyour design.
I think that's my number one.
Yeah, that's a good one.
Speaker 2 (42:48):
It taps into DFMA, right.
Yeah For manufacturing, andthen Julian for assembly, right.
Speaker 4 (43:00):
Well, yeah, and a number of others.
That's a very, very good one,vern.
Hard to beat that, I think minewould be go and find yourself
of others.
That's a very, very good one,but it's hard to beat that, I
think mine would be go and findyourself a designer or an
architect that has the good oldKiwi and Australian humility,
that is willing to listen,that's willing to bring the
right people around the tableearly.
Speaker 2 (43:22):
That's a really wise choice in terms of the people
making the decision about whothey're going to go with as a
team, and I guess you guys wouldnot have any problems if
someone reached out and said hey, I'd like to take some of your
wisdom.
Speaker 3 (43:39):
No no we've always been like that yeah, yeah, no,
not at all, we're an open likethat.
Speaker 2 (43:44):
Yeah, yeah, no, not at all.
Speaker 4 (43:44):
We're an open book, yeah.
Speaker 2 (43:46):
I think the other thing that probably isn't noted
all that often, julian, but isyour work in working with people
like X-Lam to support thedevelopment of engineering
calculations and design guides,and how close you actually work
with people like Sam Leslie backin the day in the early days to
really drive the innovation,and likewise with you, bernie,
(44:10):
working with people like Garywho was involved in Prefab NZ as
it was called back then,offsite NZ.
Now there was a true industrycollaboration to support and
this mimics what actuallyhappened in Central Europe
around Austria and Italy, etcetera, to try and develop
Germany, to develop the masstimber market at the very start
(44:34):
and the genesis of it back inthe 90s, which is what grew to
prominence and then exploded outinto the world since sort of.
You know, forte building landedin Melbourne, beardley
backpackers landed in NewZealand, that house in the UK,
and the rest is history righttotally, yeah, 100%, I think.
Speaker 4 (44:53):
To add to Bernie's pick of finding a manufacturer,
I feel like New Zealandmanufacturers have done us more
of a favour than what we've donethem.
I feel, like we've done them.
I feel like we've learnt.
We wouldn't be where we aretoday if it wasn't for X-Lamb,
(45:15):
Redstack, Timberlab, Tech, Lamb,Woodspan the good New Zealand
suppliers.
Speaker 3 (45:22):
Part of why we're a little bit reluctant to go
offshore for supply because wejust kind of feel some I think
loyalty there and we know thereare some savings and there's
different stories about whatthey are.
But I mean, how do you beat arelationship Like you're talking
about?
Seeing Leslie?
You know now Timberland RedStag was a key influence in the
(45:45):
canopy at Punaamu pathway 1500pieces, excluding fixings,
fittings, of the canopy itself,made in five different factories
around New Zealand and hisinput into that was massive.
Speaker 4 (45:59):
Yeah, just using that just quickly as an example.
Was that you know we had thatoriginal ribbon, right, yeah?
Or you know, hey, you know, tryand make this stand up, yeah,
and the truth of the matter isthat it was a beautiful concept
and I really wanted it to workstructurally and we probably
could have structurally butwould have been difficult to
manufacture.
(46:20):
Yeah, and with sam leslie'sinput, which is hard to money
and that's what I'm getting atis that we had a very limited
budget for it.
So without the manufacturer'sinput, that would have never
been built.
No, it's really as simple asthat.
Speaker 2 (46:37):
I think that's got to equate into a discount on the
next job, gents, I think ifthere's a Marty or a Jason or a
Sam listening to this.
Speaker 4 (46:47):
I do have a house to build.
Speaker 3 (46:49):
Yeah, I'm going to do it for Big Slam, or Marty,
who's going to rank for Redstone?
One of the two of them.
Speaker 2 (46:55):
I think Sam will be ringing you guys going.
Thanks for the shout-out atmultiple time points in the
podcast.
To be honest, I'll have to makesure I tag him in online on
LinkedIn when the episode comesout.
But no, hey, listen, there is15 to 20 hours of content we
(47:16):
could go through andunfortunately we don't have that
much time.
However, I just wanted to saythank you so much for coming on
the podcast for the last 40minutes and, you know, chatting
about what's been happening.
Uh, we might have to do aversion two and maybe what we
could do is dissect uh buildingand actually go through what
(47:36):
were the steps in making itsuccessful at each stage,
because I think the legacy ofsort of 10, 13 years that you've
got in this industry sector andtranslating that into success
could be very valuable forpeople who are starting out in
other parts of the world wherethey've actually got nothing and
wanting to know how to startout.
So if you'd be agreeable tothat in the future, that would
(48:00):
be great.
Speaker 3 (48:02):
Oh look, I'd suggest sitting at your desk with a
bottle of Pinot, between a PKand that one.
Speaker 2 (48:09):
I think even better than that, it'll have to be
March 2026, the Paddock ClubFormula One overlooking McLaren
Garage Awesome wins Oscar'sgoing pretty good, isn't he
Oscar's going pretty good?
Speaker 4 (48:24):
Thanks for thinking of kept asking Oscar.
You're only going pretty good,isn't it?
Oscar's going to win.
Thanks for thinking of us, mate.
Speaker 3 (48:28):
Congrats on your tenure and um.
That's fantastic and reallygreat to touch base again,
though.
Speaker 2 (48:34):
Yeah, thank you.
Thanks, julian, thank you, anduh, yeah, thank you.
Ciao, pleasure, thank you.
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