February 11, 2025 • 37 mins
Prepare to be inspired by Nate, a leading expert in the mass timber industry, as he takes us on a journey through his fascinating career path. From his humble beginnings at a sawmill to contributing to the groundbreaking Brock Commons project, Nate's story is one of innovation and collaboration. He offers a unique glimpse into the challenges and triumphs of the mass timber construction world, emphasizing the crucial role of early collaboration with architects and engineers and the revolutionary use of a unified 3D model.
We explore the evolving landscape of construction education programs, with Nate sharing his experiences working on high-profile projects like Google MT1. The conversation shifts to his transition into education, where he’s making waves at the British Columbia Institute of Technology by developing a curriculum that bridges the skills gap in the industry. The need for hybrid installers who combine carpentry and ironworking skills is just one of the exciting developments Nate touches on, as well as potential international collaborations with programs in places like Australia.
In a refreshing change of pace, Nate also opens up about the personal challenges and lessons learned from managing large projects, including a major office building for Google in Silicon Valley. As the episode wraps up, Nate offers some light-hearted insights into maintaining a healthy lifestyle amidst the demands of construction life. His personal anecdotes serve as a motivational reminder of the importance of integrating fitness into daily routines, leaving listeners with both practical advice and an inspiring call to action.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
Ladies and gentlemen, we are live.
This is the moment you all havebeen waiting for.
It's time for the globalsensation, the one, the only the
(00:26):
undisputed heavyweight podcastin the world the Mass Timber
Construction Podcast.
And now here's Paul Kramer,your host.
Speaker 2 (00:49):
Good morning, good afternoon or good evening,
wherever you are in the worldtoday.
My name's Paul Kramer.
This is the Mass TimberConstruction Podcast and,
unfortunately for all of you, wehave to suffer through an
interview with a person I'veknown for a long time.
We used to spend a lot of ourtime in the hotel Eastland in
the rooftop bar.
We would consume food and otherthings, but, nate, it's great
(01:13):
to have you on the podcast.
Finally, do you want to justtell our audience who you are
and what you currently do, andthen we'll ask you some more
questions about how you got intomass timber?
Speaker 3 (01:27):
Absolutely.
Yeah, thanks for having me,paul, great to see you again.
It has been a while.
So, yeah, what I currently dois too much at the moment.
So, recently, most recently,I've joined uh bcit, uh, british
(01:48):
columbia institute oftechnology, uh, we're on part of
a uh recently built mass timberteam, uh, where we are in
charge of building newcurriculum courses to help
educate the tradespeople,installers, on all things mass
(02:12):
timber.
So it's pretty exciting stuffand uh, um, you know kind of
kind of live in that space where, um, you know, on the leading
edge, where it's a little bitcowboyish, which is you know
(02:34):
kind of where I like to be.
So, um, but uh, you know, ontop of that, I'm I'm also uh,
managing, uh, my my own company,f3 Timber Technologies, where
we do a number of things, one ofwhich is distribution for some
European manufacturers andfasteners, connectors, temporary
(02:58):
bracing, and then we do somein-house manufacturing ourselves
where we're working ondeveloping connectors and
hardware for installationmethods, trying to solve some
problems that I've personallyhad to solve over the years as
an installer.
Speaker 2 (03:20):
Yeah, and that's the most crucial bit for me, because
, if we can just hark back tothe fact that many people might
not know, you worked on one ofthe most notable buildings in
Brock Commons.
Tell us about how you got intomass timber Like what was your
pathway?
Speaker 3 (03:38):
Yeah, it's, you know, I think a lot of times for a
lot of people I've heard similarstories is, you know, sometimes
you fall into an industry byaccident, and that was
definitely the case for me.
(04:03):
I was working at a sawmill formy early 20s, for a couple of
years and needed to get out,essentially, and my way out was
a job at StructureCraft Buildersas a laborer.
I went there Mike Marshall givehim a shout out he was the
hiring manager.
He hired me there and, uh, overover seven years of my time
(04:26):
there, I I worked my way up into, uh, both becoming a red seal
carpenter and leading the shopin in manufacturing, um, we did
a lot of cool stuff at structurecraft, uh, but after about
seven years there, I moved on toSeagate, needed some different
challenges and that's where, youknow, ralph Austin came into
(04:51):
the picture.
He had a very, you know,interesting vision for his
future and it was, you know,going from light wood frame into
mass timber.
So I joined his team to helphim do that and you know, the
long story short is, after acouple years there, we, um, we
(05:14):
got to work on the yeah, likeyou said, one of the most
notable mass timber projects outthere brock commons, brock
Commons.
Speaker 2 (05:23):
And the project is renowned for being high.
You know it's a very tallbuilding and there would have
been some unique challengesgiven it was really at the
inception, the growth stage, thethe start of the growth stage
of tall, mass timber buildings.
What was the most memorablething you can recall about the
(05:44):
project that made it significantwith the application of mass
timber to, to that say, thesuperstructure, for example?
Speaker 3 (05:55):
yeah, I don't.
I I'll try to keep this concise, but I don't think that's a
short answer.
Uh, you know it.
It was a very memorable projectfor a number of reasons, the
first one being we got Seagateuprooted very early.
You know, ubc was a veryforward-thinking owner,
(06:21):
developer and wanted to dosomething, as they do, quite
quite new and cutting edge.
And then the team that wasinvolved, fasten Up Acton
Austria, you know, and ActonAustria, as the architect, was
very much on board with lettingthe structure dictate what
(06:44):
happened.
And then he came in afterwardsto fill in with the architecture
.
But early days, fastenep came asa very collaborative approach.
They showed up to the tablewith three or four connection
options for all the differenttypes of connections.
(07:04):
We sat around the table, allhad our input and from there we
built a full scale mock-up,tested out.
You know all the connections,some you know the connections
that were that we couldn'treally agree on.
We tested maybe two or three ofthem and proved out which ones
were were the most effective.
(07:29):
That was kind of the setting thestage and then, kind of through
the, you know, once we got pastthat point, a lot of
pre-construction meetingshappened where UBC as the owner,
they, they contracted CADmakers directly and they
(07:50):
conducted meetings where theypulled in all the sub-trades
into one room where we sataround a table and they would
pull up the 3D model in front ofus and we would actively
discuss conflicts and they wouldedit 3D model in real time for
us.
(08:11):
So, you know, we sat throughseveral months of that where you
know, I guess for me the thingthat stands out is you know,
there was only one model.
There wasn't.
The mechanical guys didn't showup with their own model, and
you know the concrete and steel,it was all CAD makers that
(08:32):
built one singular model andthen farmed it out to everybody
else.
So the conflicts were alreadysolved and from there we went on
to build and I think that isreally honestly the key to that,
the success of that project.
Uh, you know, I and notnecessarily clt as as as the
(08:58):
material.
You know clt is a fantasticmedium to to be able to prefab.
But, uh, I think if you tookevery single project out there
and and did the amount ofintense pre-construction that we
did on on Brock Commons, youwould, you would be successful.
Speaker 2 (09:16):
And with that pre-construction phase being
quite long, that's sort ofindicative what you know, the
research and what industry issaying is that you spend more
time considering facets of thebuild and the fact that you
spent so much time in design and, like you said, tested the
(09:48):
efficacy of some connections andweeded the ones out that didn't
work was was.
Did that pay dividends when youbrought that forward?
Speaker 3 (09:57):
Yeah, absolutely, and I think the simplest way to
kind of put it into perspectiveis for us.
I think we had four changeorders on that project, three of
which were just added scope.
You know the amount ofconflicts that happened.
They really didn't happen.
(10:18):
Things ran smoothly andabsolutely paid dividends.
Speaker 2 (10:24):
I have been a big fan of looking at history, and the
Crystal Palace, which is one ofthe largest exhibition halls in
Europe, and obviously the EmpireState Building, are two notable
projects where they useprefabricated techniques.
One was the 1850s, one was inthe 1900s and obviously now
we've got things like BrockCommons.
(10:46):
Can you tell me whether youthought leadership at the top
that created the environment forthose decisions to happen?
Did that play a part on the waythat the project was executed?
Speaker 3 (11:00):
Yeah, I think it did absolutely was executed.
Yeah, I think it did,absolutely.
You know, again, going back toUBC as a forward thinking owner,
you know I think they've gotmore capacity or more, you know,
ability to take on some ofthese risky projects, which is
(11:22):
great for, you know, pushing theindustry forward.
Um, but they, they allowed this, uh, early pre-construction,
this heavy pre-constructionupfront, to happen.
Um, you know, and and reallytook the advice from uh, from
their consultants and uh, andjust said, okay, you know, if
this is advice from uh, fromtheir consultants and uh, and
(11:43):
just said, okay, you know, ifthis is what you say needs to
happen, we're gonna, we're gonnalet it happen that way.
Um, and you know I wasn't reallyinvolved, you know, at those
high discussions.
Uh, so you know there arepeople that could speak better
to it, but, um, you know, thatwas the overall feeling that we
got.
It was that, yeah, it makessense to spend this money up
(12:07):
front, build the buildingvirtually first, get rid of, you
know, get all the virtual RFIsdone, fix all the problems
before we build it in real time.
Speaker 2 (12:22):
And the building itself.
The superstructure has centralcore systems and, from memory,
it had outriggers systems, steelstructural systems with four
plates in it and then aprefabricated facade.
Was the building ever designedas a purist mass timber building
or was it always going to bethis sort of hybrid purest mass
timber?
Speaker 3 (12:42):
building or was it always going to be this sort of
hybrid?
Yeah, so there was definitelysome concessions made.
I think it was always going tobe a hybrid.
Uh, you know there somestatements from fast and up, uh,
about the core system, uh werethat, yeah, we could have done
it in mass timber, but becausewe were, you know, breaking new
(13:07):
ground, you know there werecertain conversations that they
got around by just doing it outof concrete or, you know, adding
extra drywall to kind of killthe fire and and get around some
of these, uh, these hurdles, sothey, um, the most important
(13:30):
thing was that we, we got this,this demonstration project,
built and and proved out that,uh, this is a viable way to
build.
Speaker 2 (13:42):
I always ask this question for people who are
involved in builds, and I'veI've put many people on the spot
and I'm going to do it to youtoo.
What were the curly things?
What were the things thatdidn't quite go to plan that you
can recall that you go?
If I had my time over again, Iwould have used this brand of
(14:03):
screw gun to drive these meterlong fixings into the floor
plates, because the ones we hadwere underpowered, those sorts
of things.
Well, what were some of thethings that stood out to you?
That are little tips thatpeople don't often talk about.
Speaker 3 (14:18):
Okay, there's nothing in terms of tooling.
I think we really got theconnections right on that
project and hopefully I'm notthrowing anybody under the bus
here but some of the lessonslearned in building tall with
(14:39):
timber.
There was a heavy discussionaround axial shortening and the
difference of materials, thedifference in shortening between
the concrete and the timber andthe different types of timber.
In the first I think it wasthree or four floors, we had PSL
(15:01):
columns, or four floors we had,uh, psl columns, um, which,
which were different than thethe rest on the glulam column
side, um.
So one of the things thathappened once we we got I think
it was level 14 the uh, theaxial shortening was not as much
as calculated, so we weregrowing too much, too fast.
(15:25):
Obviously, at level 14, we'regetting close but we had to
actually cut the columns down byabout a half inch to get back
on track and reset theelevations before we kept going.
That was the most notable kindof thing for me.
The other big one and this wasa general contractor lesson
(15:48):
learned but those outriggerplatforms that you talked about.
You know, not everything goes toplan.
There's always something thatdoesn't right.
Not everything goes to plan.
There's always something thatdoesn't right.
Um, the plan that they had hadenvisioned was to uh, you know,
(16:09):
because they had the concretecores built early.
Um was to get the actualelevators installed soon enough
that we could use them for aconstruction hoists.
Um, you know, but true to formthe, uh, the elevators were
delayed and we ended up with nota construction elevator on that
(16:31):
site.
So there was a lot of stairswalked.
I think we were all in prettygood shape by the end of that
one.
Speaker 2 (16:39):
You probably needed it, nate to be honest I could.
Speaker 3 (16:44):
I could probably use another broad commons.
Uh, now to to get me back therewell, you'll need to walk that
off.
Speaker 2 (16:51):
Um so, go and pop in some stair systems, because
you'll probably end up eatingsome more seafood and some other
food in portland if you'reheading down this year.
Speaker 3 (17:01):
That's right, that's right.
Speaker 2 (17:04):
And so from there, you obviously have been involved
in the connection systems, butI want to sort of circumvent and
go to the education, the BCITstuff that you're doing.
Yeah, sure, so how did you getinvolved in that?
And you know what specificallyare you trying to do.
(17:24):
Is it curriculum writing, Is itdelivery programs or is it
something different?
Speaker 3 (17:32):
So it's, it's both of those things.
Um and uh, I guess I'll go backto kind of how I got involved.
Uh, and, and I'll, I'll, I'llkind of how I got involved and
and I'll I'll, I'll kind offinish my my history of of the
my mass timber experience.
But you know, I spent aboutfive years at Seagate and from
(17:54):
there I moved on to a companycalled Kinsol Timber which is
partly owned by mr mike marshall.
Um, so I got to work with himagain for for a couple years, uh
, and in that time I worked onagain some cool projects.
Uh, google mt1 was kind of thehighlight for me in that time.
(18:18):
Um, but kind of mixed in thereI got.
I think I blame Mike for this,but I think he kind of pushed me
to be involved with BCIT asthey were building out their
very initial ACERT program.
(18:38):
That has been running for nowfor three, four years.
So I showed up as an industryexpert to help them kind of
navigate the curriculum for thatand continue to be involved.
Every year I showed up to do,you know, an hour presentation
(18:58):
for the class, class on on myexperience and, uh, you know, I,
you know, just just got drawnback into it.
So, um, yeah, and what we'redoing now is exactly that.
You know we do have one courseat bcit, um, but we we need more
(19:20):
.
It doesn't.
It doesn't, you know, kind ofsatisfy all the all the needs of
the industry.
So we're looking at bringingall the different parts and
pieces of the industry together.
That's our goal anyways to tryand break down some boundaries
between different trades.
We've got the carpenters.
(19:42):
We're seeing a lot, a lot moreiron workers getting involved in
this space and I think we needthose guys.
But you know they show up witha different set of skills than
the carpenters do.
They're far more comfortableand capable around cranes, kind
of right out of the gate.
(20:02):
But you know, when you go andlook in their toolbox they don't
have a lot of wood cuttingtools.
So you know there's good andbad on both sides of and you
know we're kind of creating kindof a hybrid installer is what
(20:25):
we kind of need for goingforward for these mass timber
projects.
Speaker 2 (20:32):
That's interesting, mate, and I guess you must have
been very clever to fool themthat you were smart enough to
move from industry guest speakerto being part of the program.
Speaker 3 (20:43):
yeah, well, hopefully you don't blow my cover here if
they're listening to this, yourcover's blown, you know.
Speaker 2 (20:52):
And then I guess now I owe you a beer, but anyway,
that's worth the joke.
I uh, I applaud you on whatyou're doing and shout out to
Mike and to Time and all thepeople at Kinsel and what
they're doing is fantastic.
And we'll circle back to youbecause I wanted to chat to you
about that too.
But with the program thatyou're doing, it seems very
(21:14):
similar to what we've had herein Australia with a course in
which is a course inprefabricated technology using
timber, and so people who arecarpenters would use that very
short course.
It's sort of like six or sevensubjects or something like that
throughout a year.
And then there's like theproject management version,
(21:35):
which is a diploma.
So you, you scale up and you doprobably twice as much, but now
you're managing projects, soyou're thinking about project
management and staging andgetting ready to deliver, and
then, at the other end of that,we actually decided to develop a
BIM program as well.
But BIM in this instance wasn'tbuilding information model, it
(21:56):
was building informationmanagement, and we did that
around digital design.
So all that commentary you'vespoken about with, uh, the
pre-construction, digitalintegration with cad makers um,
all of that is enveloped in whatthis information management um
sort of program is about.
(22:17):
So that's, they're nationallyregistered programs, so we
should probably catch upafterwards and have a chat about
, yeah, how they might fit withwhat you're doing, but sounds
very similar.
And is it well attended Like.
You've got people coming to the, the, the Institute, to
participate in this on a regularbasis.
Speaker 3 (22:38):
Yeah, yeah, that's right.
So it's, it's been.
Uh, the course has been running.
I think this we're in ourfourth, fourth year.
Uh, that's right, the coursehas been running.
(22:59):
I think the first week they'regonna run until june doing
online learning, and thenthere's a two-week in-person
practicum where they come andput a two-story mock-up together
, um, and and apply all thethings that they've they've
learned about.
So and what you're doing soundsamazing and and actually, yeah,
(23:23):
very similar to what we'rewe're pushing for.
Um, we've got some, someproject management courses being
being developed, exactly likeyou said, specific to mass
timber and, uh, you know,teaching the project managers.
I think a lot about lead timesis one of the big ones and,
(23:45):
again, getting back to that,that prefab and early
integration of sub trades intoyour, into your planning.
Speaker 2 (23:54):
It is a shock to people, isn't it?
When you say, uh, we'veproduced your entire building.
It's sitting on the floor.
When are you coming to take itto site and then get their
podium level ready for assemblyright?
So it's like it's thisdifference between the project's
timeframes on site versus themanufacturing time frames, and I
(24:16):
don't think the speeds havealigned and the communication
has to be strong, um, but it'scertainly that way and of course
I don't know of any project inthat I've ever been involved in
that has ever been on schedule.
It's always been a little bitbehind, except for when COVID
hit and everything stopped andeveryone had to do as much work
(24:40):
as they possibly could up to adeadline, and then they were
working 24 hours to invoice forthe next billing period to get
cash flow in, because it wasn'tgoing to be there.
So I saw projects acceleratefor the first time in my life
then.
So if it's the same as whereyou are, um, we share a common
(25:00):
association with delayed projectdifferences in material yeah,
yeah, I, I can, uh, I can relatefor sure let's circle back to
google.
Tell us about that.
You said in your dialogue aboutyour career as one of your most
memorable projects.
Tell us about you know.
You said in your dialogue aboutyour career, it's one of your
(25:22):
most memorable projects.
Tell us about you know.
Speaker 3 (25:24):
Tell people about what that project was how big it
was.
And then, you know, siliconvalley is a an interesting place
, especially for, uh, outsiderslike myself who are not used to
(25:44):
that uh, kind of busy space, um,but it's, it's, you know it's
interesting.
Google owns uh, you know, ownshalf the city and they're slowly
just building these offices andwe got to build one of them.
So, 180,000 square feet, fivestories.
(26:06):
Kinsel won that project justbefore they hired me in 2019 and
just kind of handed me theportfolio and said we got a lot
of work to do.
So, you know, over the courseof the next year, a lot of
(26:27):
pre-con, and you know, thebuilding looked very different
from the bid package to thefinal product.
A lot of design changesthroughout that time, but the
most the reason it means so muchto me is it was a real
integration of all of thebuilding systems that I've
(26:54):
created and I'm now selling withF3 timber, uh, and I was able
to apply them to to a very, verycool project.
Um, you know that, I think, is,you know, it's award winning.
So, um, I was tasked at Kinsawwith, uh, you know, obviously
(27:17):
being pre doing thepre-construction meetings, um,
but then designing the, theerection plan and and the
sequencing plan, those, thosetwo to go together very uh.
They need to go together, uh,to be effective.
Um, so I worked with aspectengineerspect Engineers.
They were our bracing engineerand we developed the system.
(27:43):
One of the, I'd say, the mostimpactful thing on that project
for me was and it was around adesign change.
Where so google mt1 does nothave any concrete cores?
The lateral system is all inthese large steel brace frames.
(28:05):
Uh, early in design, thosesteel brace frames were uh tied
tightly to the glulam frames andthere was a lot, of, a lot of
issues and and things that wewere hard to solve with with
them being that way.
So they at some point made thedecision, the right decision to
(28:25):
decouple the steel frames fromthe, from the wood.
Um, and what that meant for forkinsaw was uh, and I didn't
realize it when it firsthappened, but we had planned to
do, say, two floors of bracingand then cycle our bracing up as
we went.
But when they decoupled thesteel frames it meant that the
(28:52):
diaphragm only tied into thelateral system once the concrete
topping was poured, whichdidn't happen until we built the
entire structure.
So we ended up going from asmall amount of bracing needed
to having to temporary brace theentire structure for a period
of time.
So you know that one blew thebudget uh wide open for us um,
(29:21):
but you know it was.
We had a good, good workingrelationship with xl
construction and um and the teamdown there.
So you know we worked throughit all and and uh.
I think the biggest takeaway forme was that um, doing the
project the right way, eventhough it cost us more um saved
(29:46):
us money at the end of the jobrather than try to save money up
front.
Uh and uh.
You know, cheap out on bracingor whatever it is the way that
we did.
It made sure that the projectprogressed for for everybody and
not just us.
We, we were strategic with ourbracing so that all of the
(30:11):
follow on trades could beactively working while we kept
building above.
Speaker 2 (30:15):
Brilliant.
As long as the accountants atKinsel were happy, mate, you're
all good.
Speaker 3 (30:22):
That's right.
Well, you're going to have toask Marshall about that one.
Speaker 2 (30:27):
I have to get Mike on now.
I think I've got enough stuffto talk about with you being on
here alone, let alone speakingto other people.
But yeah, that's veryinteresting, mate, that's very
interesting.
And again, with that project,like Brock, what was the one
thing that you look back and yougo?
That didn't work outnecessarily, but you know that
(30:49):
was something that was good inthe end.
Besides the bracing, was thereanything else that stuck out?
Speaker 3 (30:56):
It's a good question.
It was a challenging projectfor me because we were the
bracing.
Was there anything else thatstuck out?
Uh, it's a good question, itwas.
Uh, it was a challengingproject for me because we were.
We were in the middle of covid.
Uh, you know, that project gotdelayed from 2020 spring install
to, uh, an early 2021 install.
So, uh, you know, for me Iwasn't able to travel back and
(31:18):
forth.
I was, I was stuck in in sanjose, which you know.
There's definitely worse placesto be stuck in, uh, but, uh,
you know, I was telling somebodyelse just recently that I was
going through through thesepictures of mt1 and and, uh,
looking back, I was like, oh man, this is, this is a very cool
project, and when I was in it, Idon't I don't think I fully
(31:42):
appreciated that I was, I wasdefinitely, you know, missing
home and you know those, thosekind of sentiments.
So that's a bit of a side asI'm trying'm trying to reach for
.
Uh, you know what other thingsstood out.
I think maybe another big onefor me was, um, the.
(32:05):
The crew that we worked withwas, I'd say, largely
inexperienced crew in terms of,uh, putting their hands on mass
timber and you know wedefinitely had a steep learning
curve at the start.
But you know, what was veryapparent, you know, as we went
(32:30):
through, is that for all ofthese mass timber projects that
have been designed and plannedproperly, you really only need a
few people in leadership at thetop, on site, kind of directing
traffic, and then a bunch ofcompetent carpenters, whether
(32:52):
they have touched timber or not,whether they have touched
timber or not, these systems gotogether easily, quickly, that
they're going to get it, they'regoing to figure it out, they're
going to get it done.
So it's not as scary, I don'tthink, as maybe some people
(33:13):
think it is.
Speaker 2 (33:15):
That's good to know.
It means that it's encouragingfor people who haven't um been
in that sector and had exposureto it.
It provides encouragement thatyou can do it with, as you said,
the right leadership, and Ithink leadership is a key theme
that's come through both withyou know, the amazing projects
(33:36):
from the past and Brock Commons,and again here.
I think it's an importantattribute that we don't often
think about is leadership andthen team culture that surrounds
that, and I'm experiencing moreand more with even projects
here in Australia that areabsolutely running, and more
(33:57):
with even projects here inAustralia that are absolutely
running, like you said, withvery minimal change,
documentational variations thatwe call it here.
You're finding that everythingjust clicks together, and I
think this is the utopia thatpeople including myself, you
know, 10 years ago plus werehoping we might be able to get,
(34:17):
and it sounds like it's slowlygetting there through through
the auspices of sharing thisknowledge and sharing wisdom
through people like yourself.
So no, well done, but we've runout of time and we might
actually have to get you back onthe program another time, but
just in closing.
So how do people get in contactwith you and how do you get
into the?
Speaker 3 (34:58):
course at bct, bcit.
Yeah, forcom.
Uh for bcit, nathan underscore,bergen at bcitca and uh, you
know, as I mentioned beforeabout the the course, the
courses here at bcit.
There there's a lot of onlinelearning and online learning and
(35:20):
you really just need to go tothe BCIT website and register
for the ACERT mass timberprogram.
The in-person portion isobviously.
The in-person portion isobviously trickier for some
(35:43):
people who are further away, butthere's also a real desire at
BCIT to collaborate with otherschools and folks like yourself
to share that knowledge and takewhat we're doing here and apply
(36:04):
it in other places.
So one of the things we hope todo throughout all this course
development is produce newcontent that, if it can't be
fully done online, we can maybetake some of that learning.
If it can't be fully doneonline, we can.
We can maybe take some of thatlearning, uh, transport it to
two different locations and getsome of that hands-on experience
(36:25):
for these, uh for anybody thatcan't travel here.
Speaker 2 (36:27):
So yeah, excellent, that sounds awesome, nate, and
thank you so much for your time,uh, for coming on the podcast
and, uh, I hope that you do findsome stairs very soon to go for
a couple of ups and downs andget into shape.
And thanks very much forsharing your story and what you
(36:49):
do with our global audience.
So thanks for being on thepodcast.
Speaker 3 (36:54):
Thanks so much, Paul.
Thanks for having me.
Thank you.
Ladies and gentlemen, we are live.
This is the moment you all havebeen waiting for.
It's time for the globalsensation, the one, the only the
(00:26):
undisputed heavyweight podcastin the world the Mass Timber
Construction Podcast.
And now here's Paul Kramer,your host.
Speaker 2 (00:49):
Good morning, good afternoon or good evening,
wherever you are in the worldtoday.
My name's Paul Kramer.
This is the Mass TimberConstruction Podcast and,
unfortunately for all of you, wehave to suffer through an
interview with a person I'veknown for a long time.
We used to spend a lot of ourtime in the hotel Eastland in
the rooftop bar.
We would consume food and otherthings, but, nate, it's great
(01:13):
to have you on the podcast.
Finally, do you want to justtell our audience who you are
and what you currently do, andthen we'll ask you some more
questions about how you got intomass timber?
Speaker 3 (01:27):
Absolutely.
Yeah, thanks for having me,paul, great to see you again.
It has been a while.
So, yeah, what I currently dois too much at the moment.
So, recently, most recently,I've joined uh bcit, uh, british
(01:48):
columbia institute oftechnology, uh, we're on part of
a uh recently built mass timberteam, uh, where we are in
charge of building newcurriculum courses to help
educate the tradespeople,installers, on all things mass
(02:12):
timber.
So it's pretty exciting stuffand uh, um, you know kind of
kind of live in that space where, um, you know, on the leading
edge, where it's a little bitcowboyish, which is you know
(02:34):
kind of where I like to be.
So, um, but uh, you know, ontop of that, I'm I'm also uh,
managing, uh, my my own company,f3 Timber Technologies, where
we do a number of things, one ofwhich is distribution for some
European manufacturers andfasteners, connectors, temporary
(02:58):
bracing, and then we do somein-house manufacturing ourselves
where we're working ondeveloping connectors and
hardware for installationmethods, trying to solve some
problems that I've personallyhad to solve over the years as
an installer.
Speaker 2 (03:20):
Yeah, and that's the most crucial bit for me, because
, if we can just hark back tothe fact that many people might
not know, you worked on one ofthe most notable buildings in
Brock Commons.
Tell us about how you got intomass timber Like what was your
pathway?
Speaker 3 (03:38):
Yeah, it's, you know, I think a lot of times for a
lot of people I've heard similarstories is, you know, sometimes
you fall into an industry byaccident, and that was
definitely the case for me.
(04:03):
I was working at a sawmill formy early 20s, for a couple of
years and needed to get out,essentially, and my way out was
a job at StructureCraft Buildersas a laborer.
I went there Mike Marshall givehim a shout out he was the
hiring manager.
He hired me there and, uh, overover seven years of my time
(04:26):
there, I I worked my way up into, uh, both becoming a red seal
carpenter and leading the shopin in manufacturing, um, we did
a lot of cool stuff at structurecraft, uh, but after about
seven years there, I moved on toSeagate, needed some different
challenges and that's where, youknow, ralph Austin came into
(04:51):
the picture.
He had a very, you know,interesting vision for his
future and it was, you know,going from light wood frame into
mass timber.
So I joined his team to helphim do that and you know, the
long story short is, after acouple years there, we, um, we
(05:14):
got to work on the yeah, likeyou said, one of the most
notable mass timber projects outthere brock commons, brock
Commons.
Speaker 2 (05:23):
And the project is renowned for being high.
You know it's a very tallbuilding and there would have
been some unique challengesgiven it was really at the
inception, the growth stage, thethe start of the growth stage
of tall, mass timber buildings.
What was the most memorablething you can recall about the
(05:44):
project that made it significantwith the application of mass
timber to, to that say, thesuperstructure, for example?
Speaker 3 (05:55):
yeah, I don't.
I I'll try to keep this concise, but I don't think that's a
short answer.
Uh, you know it.
It was a very memorable projectfor a number of reasons, the
first one being we got Seagateuprooted very early.
You know, ubc was a veryforward-thinking owner,
(06:21):
developer and wanted to dosomething, as they do, quite
quite new and cutting edge.
And then the team that wasinvolved, fasten Up Acton
Austria, you know, and ActonAustria, as the architect, was
very much on board with lettingthe structure dictate what
(06:44):
happened.
And then he came in afterwardsto fill in with the architecture
.
But early days, fastenep came asa very collaborative approach.
They showed up to the tablewith three or four connection
options for all the differenttypes of connections.
(07:04):
We sat around the table, allhad our input and from there we
built a full scale mock-up,tested out.
You know all the connections,some you know the connections
that were that we couldn'treally agree on.
We tested maybe two or three ofthem and proved out which ones
were were the most effective.
(07:29):
That was kind of the setting thestage and then, kind of through
the, you know, once we got pastthat point, a lot of
pre-construction meetingshappened where UBC as the owner,
they, they contracted CADmakers directly and they
(07:50):
conducted meetings where theypulled in all the sub-trades
into one room where we sataround a table and they would
pull up the 3D model in front ofus and we would actively
discuss conflicts and they wouldedit 3D model in real time for
us.
(08:11):
So, you know, we sat throughseveral months of that where you
know, I guess for me the thingthat stands out is you know,
there was only one model.
There wasn't.
The mechanical guys didn't showup with their own model, and
you know the concrete and steel,it was all CAD makers that
(08:32):
built one singular model andthen farmed it out to everybody
else.
So the conflicts were alreadysolved and from there we went on
to build and I think that isreally honestly the key to that,
the success of that project.
Uh, you know, I and notnecessarily clt as as as the
(08:58):
material.
You know clt is a fantasticmedium to to be able to prefab.
But, uh, I think if you tookevery single project out there
and and did the amount ofintense pre-construction that we
did on on Brock Commons, youwould, you would be successful.
Speaker 2 (09:16):
And with that pre-construction phase being
quite long, that's sort ofindicative what you know, the
research and what industry issaying is that you spend more
time considering facets of thebuild and the fact that you
spent so much time in design and, like you said, tested the
(09:48):
efficacy of some connections andweeded the ones out that didn't
work was was.
Did that pay dividends when youbrought that forward?
Speaker 3 (09:57):
Yeah, absolutely, and I think the simplest way to
kind of put it into perspectiveis for us.
I think we had four changeorders on that project, three of
which were just added scope.
You know the amount ofconflicts that happened.
They really didn't happen.
(10:18):
Things ran smoothly andabsolutely paid dividends.
Speaker 2 (10:24):
I have been a big fan of looking at history, and the
Crystal Palace, which is one ofthe largest exhibition halls in
Europe, and obviously the EmpireState Building, are two notable
projects where they useprefabricated techniques.
One was the 1850s, one was inthe 1900s and obviously now
we've got things like BrockCommons.
(10:46):
Can you tell me whether youthought leadership at the top
that created the environment forthose decisions to happen?
Did that play a part on the waythat the project was executed?
Speaker 3 (11:00):
Yeah, I think it did absolutely was executed.
Yeah, I think it did,absolutely.
You know, again, going back toUBC as a forward thinking owner,
you know I think they've gotmore capacity or more, you know,
ability to take on some ofthese risky projects, which is
(11:22):
great for, you know, pushing theindustry forward.
Um, but they, they allowed this, uh, early pre-construction,
this heavy pre-constructionupfront, to happen.
Um, you know, and and reallytook the advice from uh, from
their consultants and uh, andjust said, okay, you know, if
this is advice from uh, fromtheir consultants and uh, and
(11:43):
just said, okay, you know, ifthis is what you say needs to
happen, we're gonna, we're gonnalet it happen that way.
Um, and you know I wasn't reallyinvolved, you know, at those
high discussions.
Uh, so you know there arepeople that could speak better
to it, but, um, you know, thatwas the overall feeling that we
got.
It was that, yeah, it makessense to spend this money up
(12:07):
front, build the buildingvirtually first, get rid of, you
know, get all the virtual RFIsdone, fix all the problems
before we build it in real time.
Speaker 2 (12:22):
And the building itself.
The superstructure has centralcore systems and, from memory,
it had outriggers systems, steelstructural systems with four
plates in it and then aprefabricated facade.
Was the building ever designedas a purist mass timber building
or was it always going to bethis sort of hybrid purest mass
timber?
Speaker 3 (12:42):
building or was it always going to be this sort of
hybrid?
Yeah, so there was definitelysome concessions made.
I think it was always going tobe a hybrid.
Uh, you know there somestatements from fast and up, uh,
about the core system, uh werethat, yeah, we could have done
it in mass timber, but becausewe were, you know, breaking new
(13:07):
ground, you know there werecertain conversations that they
got around by just doing it outof concrete or, you know, adding
extra drywall to kind of killthe fire and and get around some
of these, uh, these hurdles, sothey, um, the most important
(13:30):
thing was that we, we got this,this demonstration project,
built and and proved out that,uh, this is a viable way to
build.
Speaker 2 (13:42):
I always ask this question for people who are
involved in builds, and I'veI've put many people on the spot
and I'm going to do it to youtoo.
What were the curly things?
What were the things thatdidn't quite go to plan that you
can recall that you go?
If I had my time over again, Iwould have used this brand of
(14:03):
screw gun to drive these meterlong fixings into the floor
plates, because the ones we hadwere underpowered, those sorts
of things.
Well, what were some of thethings that stood out to you?
That are little tips thatpeople don't often talk about.
Speaker 3 (14:18):
Okay, there's nothing in terms of tooling.
I think we really got theconnections right on that
project and hopefully I'm notthrowing anybody under the bus
here but some of the lessonslearned in building tall with
(14:39):
timber.
There was a heavy discussionaround axial shortening and the
difference of materials, thedifference in shortening between
the concrete and the timber andthe different types of timber.
In the first I think it wasthree or four floors, we had PSL
(15:01):
columns, or four floors we had,uh, psl columns, um, which,
which were different than thethe rest on the glulam column
side, um.
So one of the things thathappened once we we got I think
it was level 14 the uh, theaxial shortening was not as much
as calculated, so we weregrowing too much, too fast.
(15:25):
Obviously, at level 14, we'regetting close but we had to
actually cut the columns down byabout a half inch to get back
on track and reset theelevations before we kept going.
That was the most notable kindof thing for me.
The other big one and this wasa general contractor lesson
(15:48):
learned but those outriggerplatforms that you talked about.
You know, not everything goes toplan.
There's always something thatdoesn't right.
Not everything goes to plan.
There's always something thatdoesn't right.
Um, the plan that they had hadenvisioned was to uh, you know,
(16:09):
because they had the concretecores built early.
Um was to get the actualelevators installed soon enough
that we could use them for aconstruction hoists.
Um, you know, but true to formthe, uh, the elevators were
delayed and we ended up with nota construction elevator on that
(16:31):
site.
So there was a lot of stairswalked.
I think we were all in prettygood shape by the end of that
one.
Speaker 2 (16:39):
You probably needed it, nate to be honest I could.
Speaker 3 (16:44):
I could probably use another broad commons.
Uh, now to to get me back therewell, you'll need to walk that
off.
Speaker 2 (16:51):
Um so, go and pop in some stair systems, because
you'll probably end up eatingsome more seafood and some other
food in portland if you'reheading down this year.
Speaker 3 (17:01):
That's right, that's right.
Speaker 2 (17:04):
And so from there, you obviously have been involved
in the connection systems, butI want to sort of circumvent and
go to the education, the BCITstuff that you're doing.
Yeah, sure, so how did you getinvolved in that?
And you know what specificallyare you trying to do.
(17:24):
Is it curriculum writing, Is itdelivery programs or is it
something different?
Speaker 3 (17:32):
So it's, it's both of those things.
Um and uh, I guess I'll go backto kind of how I got involved.
Uh, and, and I'll, I'll, I'llkind of how I got involved and
and I'll I'll, I'll kind offinish my my history of of the
my mass timber experience.
But you know, I spent aboutfive years at Seagate and from
(17:54):
there I moved on to a companycalled Kinsol Timber which is
partly owned by mr mike marshall.
Um, so I got to work with himagain for for a couple years, uh
, and in that time I worked onagain some cool projects.
Uh, google mt1 was kind of thehighlight for me in that time.
(18:18):
Um, but kind of mixed in thereI got.
I think I blame Mike for this,but I think he kind of pushed me
to be involved with BCIT asthey were building out their
very initial ACERT program.
(18:38):
That has been running for nowfor three, four years.
So I showed up as an industryexpert to help them kind of
navigate the curriculum for thatand continue to be involved.
Every year I showed up to do,you know, an hour presentation
(18:58):
for the class, class on on myexperience and, uh, you know, I,
you know, just just got drawnback into it.
So, um, yeah, and what we'redoing now is exactly that.
You know we do have one courseat bcit, um, but we we need more
(19:20):
.
It doesn't.
It doesn't, you know, kind ofsatisfy all the all the needs of
the industry.
So we're looking at bringingall the different parts and
pieces of the industry together.
That's our goal anyways to tryand break down some boundaries
between different trades.
We've got the carpenters.
(19:42):
We're seeing a lot, a lot moreiron workers getting involved in
this space and I think we needthose guys.
But you know they show up witha different set of skills than
the carpenters do.
They're far more comfortableand capable around cranes, kind
of right out of the gate.
(20:02):
But you know, when you go andlook in their toolbox they don't
have a lot of wood cuttingtools.
So you know there's good andbad on both sides of and you
know we're kind of creating kindof a hybrid installer is what
(20:25):
we kind of need for goingforward for these mass timber
projects.
Speaker 2 (20:32):
That's interesting, mate, and I guess you must have
been very clever to fool themthat you were smart enough to
move from industry guest speakerto being part of the program.
Speaker 3 (20:43):
yeah, well, hopefully you don't blow my cover here if
they're listening to this, yourcover's blown, you know.
Speaker 2 (20:52):
And then I guess now I owe you a beer, but anyway,
that's worth the joke.
I uh, I applaud you on whatyou're doing and shout out to
Mike and to Time and all thepeople at Kinsel and what
they're doing is fantastic.
And we'll circle back to youbecause I wanted to chat to you
about that too.
But with the program thatyou're doing, it seems very
(21:14):
similar to what we've had herein Australia with a course in
which is a course inprefabricated technology using
timber, and so people who arecarpenters would use that very
short course.
It's sort of like six or sevensubjects or something like that
throughout a year.
And then there's like theproject management version,
(21:35):
which is a diploma.
So you, you scale up and you doprobably twice as much, but now
you're managing projects, soyou're thinking about project
management and staging andgetting ready to deliver, and
then, at the other end of that,we actually decided to develop a
BIM program as well.
But BIM in this instance wasn'tbuilding information model, it
(21:56):
was building informationmanagement, and we did that
around digital design.
So all that commentary you'vespoken about with, uh, the
pre-construction, digitalintegration with cad makers um,
all of that is enveloped in whatthis information management um
sort of program is about.
(22:17):
So that's, they're nationallyregistered programs, so we
should probably catch upafterwards and have a chat about
, yeah, how they might fit withwhat you're doing, but sounds
very similar.
And is it well attended Like.
You've got people coming to the, the, the Institute, to
participate in this on a regularbasis.
Speaker 3 (22:38):
Yeah, yeah, that's right.
So it's, it's been.
Uh, the course has been running.
I think this we're in ourfourth, fourth year.
Uh, that's right, the coursehas been running.
(22:59):
I think the first week they'regonna run until june doing
online learning, and thenthere's a two-week in-person
practicum where they come andput a two-story mock-up together
, um, and and apply all thethings that they've they've
learned about.
So and what you're doing soundsamazing and and actually, yeah,
(23:23):
very similar to what we'rewe're pushing for.
Um, we've got some, someproject management courses being
being developed, exactly likeyou said, specific to mass
timber and, uh, you know,teaching the project managers.
I think a lot about lead timesis one of the big ones and,
(23:45):
again, getting back to that,that prefab and early
integration of sub trades intoyour, into your planning.
Speaker 2 (23:54):
It is a shock to people, isn't it?
When you say, uh, we'veproduced your entire building.
It's sitting on the floor.
When are you coming to take itto site and then get their
podium level ready for assemblyright?
So it's like it's thisdifference between the project's
timeframes on site versus themanufacturing time frames, and I
(24:16):
don't think the speeds havealigned and the communication
has to be strong, um, but it'scertainly that way and of course
I don't know of any project inthat I've ever been involved in
that has ever been on schedule.
It's always been a little bitbehind, except for when COVID
hit and everything stopped andeveryone had to do as much work
(24:40):
as they possibly could up to adeadline, and then they were
working 24 hours to invoice forthe next billing period to get
cash flow in, because it wasn'tgoing to be there.
So I saw projects acceleratefor the first time in my life
then.
So if it's the same as whereyou are, um, we share a common
(25:00):
association with delayed projectdifferences in material yeah,
yeah, I, I can, uh, I can relatefor sure let's circle back to
google.
Tell us about that.
You said in your dialogue aboutyour career as one of your most
memorable projects.
Tell us about you know.
You said in your dialogue aboutyour career, it's one of your
(25:22):
most memorable projects.
Tell us about you know.
Speaker 3 (25:24):
Tell people about what that project was how big it
was.
And then, you know, siliconvalley is a an interesting place
, especially for, uh, outsiderslike myself who are not used to
(25:44):
that uh, kind of busy space, um,but it's, it's, you know it's
interesting.
Google owns uh, you know, ownshalf the city and they're slowly
just building these offices andwe got to build one of them.
So, 180,000 square feet, fivestories.
(26:06):
Kinsel won that project justbefore they hired me in 2019 and
just kind of handed me theportfolio and said we got a lot
of work to do.
So, you know, over the courseof the next year, a lot of
(26:27):
pre-con, and you know, thebuilding looked very different
from the bid package to thefinal product.
A lot of design changesthroughout that time, but the
most the reason it means so muchto me is it was a real
integration of all of thebuilding systems that I've
(26:54):
created and I'm now selling withF3 timber, uh, and I was able
to apply them to to a very, verycool project.
Um, you know that, I think, is,you know, it's award winning.
So, um, I was tasked at Kinsawwith, uh, you know, obviously
(27:17):
being pre doing thepre-construction meetings, um,
but then designing the, theerection plan and and the
sequencing plan, those, thosetwo to go together very uh.
They need to go together, uh,to be effective.
Um, so I worked with aspectengineerspect Engineers.
They were our bracing engineerand we developed the system.
(27:43):
One of the, I'd say, the mostimpactful thing on that project
for me was and it was around adesign change.
Where so google mt1 does nothave any concrete cores?
The lateral system is all inthese large steel brace frames.
(28:05):
Uh, early in design, thosesteel brace frames were uh tied
tightly to the glulam frames andthere was a lot, of, a lot of
issues and and things that wewere hard to solve with with
them being that way.
So they at some point made thedecision, the right decision to
(28:25):
decouple the steel frames fromthe, from the wood.
Um, and what that meant for forkinsaw was uh, and I didn't
realize it when it firsthappened, but we had planned to
do, say, two floors of bracingand then cycle our bracing up as
we went.
But when they decoupled thesteel frames it meant that the
(28:52):
diaphragm only tied into thelateral system once the concrete
topping was poured, whichdidn't happen until we built the
entire structure.
So we ended up going from asmall amount of bracing needed
to having to temporary brace theentire structure for a period
of time.
So you know that one blew thebudget uh wide open for us um,
(29:21):
but you know it was.
We had a good, good workingrelationship with xl
construction and um and the teamdown there.
So you know we worked throughit all and and uh.
I think the biggest takeaway forme was that um, doing the
project the right way, eventhough it cost us more um saved
(29:46):
us money at the end of the jobrather than try to save money up
front.
Uh and uh.
You know, cheap out on bracingor whatever it is the way that
we did.
It made sure that the projectprogressed for for everybody and
not just us.
We, we were strategic with ourbracing so that all of the
(30:11):
follow on trades could beactively working while we kept
building above.
Speaker 2 (30:15):
Brilliant.
As long as the accountants atKinsel were happy, mate, you're
all good.
Speaker 3 (30:22):
That's right.
Well, you're going to have toask Marshall about that one.
Speaker 2 (30:27):
I have to get Mike on now.
I think I've got enough stuffto talk about with you being on
here alone, let alone speakingto other people.
But yeah, that's veryinteresting, mate, that's very
interesting.
And again, with that project,like Brock, what was the one
thing that you look back and yougo?
That didn't work outnecessarily, but you know that
(30:49):
was something that was good inthe end.
Besides the bracing, was thereanything else that stuck out?
Speaker 3 (30:56):
It's a good question.
It was a challenging projectfor me because we were the
bracing.
Was there anything else thatstuck out?
Uh, it's a good question, itwas.
Uh, it was a challengingproject for me because we were.
We were in the middle of covid.
Uh, you know, that project gotdelayed from 2020 spring install
to, uh, an early 2021 install.
So, uh, you know, for me Iwasn't able to travel back and
(31:18):
forth.
I was, I was stuck in in sanjose, which you know.
There's definitely worse placesto be stuck in, uh, but, uh,
you know, I was telling somebodyelse just recently that I was
going through through thesepictures of mt1 and and, uh,
looking back, I was like, oh man, this is, this is a very cool
project, and when I was in it, Idon't I don't think I fully
(31:42):
appreciated that I was, I wasdefinitely, you know, missing
home and you know those, thosekind of sentiments.
So that's a bit of a side asI'm trying'm trying to reach for
.
Uh, you know what other thingsstood out.
I think maybe another big onefor me was, um, the.
(32:05):
The crew that we worked withwas, I'd say, largely
inexperienced crew in terms of,uh, putting their hands on mass
timber and you know wedefinitely had a steep learning
curve at the start.
But you know, what was veryapparent, you know, as we went
(32:30):
through, is that for all ofthese mass timber projects that
have been designed and plannedproperly, you really only need a
few people in leadership at thetop, on site, kind of directing
traffic, and then a bunch ofcompetent carpenters, whether
(32:52):
they have touched timber or not,whether they have touched
timber or not, these systems gotogether easily, quickly, that
they're going to get it, they'regoing to figure it out, they're
going to get it done.
So it's not as scary, I don'tthink, as maybe some people
(33:13):
think it is.
Speaker 2 (33:15):
That's good to know.
It means that it's encouragingfor people who haven't um been
in that sector and had exposureto it.
It provides encouragement thatyou can do it with, as you said,
the right leadership, and Ithink leadership is a key theme
that's come through both withyou know, the amazing projects
(33:36):
from the past and Brock Commons,and again here.
I think it's an importantattribute that we don't often
think about is leadership andthen team culture that surrounds
that, and I'm experiencing moreand more with even projects
here in Australia that areabsolutely running, and more
(33:57):
with even projects here inAustralia that are absolutely
running, like you said, withvery minimal change,
documentational variations thatwe call it here.
You're finding that everythingjust clicks together, and I
think this is the utopia thatpeople including myself, you
know, 10 years ago plus werehoping we might be able to get,
(34:17):
and it sounds like it's slowlygetting there through through
the auspices of sharing thisknowledge and sharing wisdom
through people like yourself.
So no, well done, but we've runout of time and we might
actually have to get you back onthe program another time, but
just in closing.
So how do people get in contactwith you and how do you get
into the?
Speaker 3 (34:58):
course at bct, bcit.
Yeah, forcom.
Uh for bcit, nathan underscore,bergen at bcitca and uh, you
know, as I mentioned beforeabout the the course, the
courses here at bcit.
There there's a lot of onlinelearning and online learning and
(35:20):
you really just need to go tothe BCIT website and register
for the ACERT mass timberprogram.
The in-person portion isobviously.
The in-person portion isobviously trickier for some
(35:43):
people who are further away, butthere's also a real desire at
BCIT to collaborate with otherschools and folks like yourself
to share that knowledge and takewhat we're doing here and apply
(36:04):
it in other places.
So one of the things we hope todo throughout all this course
development is produce newcontent that, if it can't be
fully done online, we can maybetake some of that learning.
If it can't be fully doneonline, we can.
We can maybe take some of thatlearning, uh, transport it to
two different locations and getsome of that hands-on experience
(36:25):
for these, uh for anybody thatcan't travel here.
Speaker 2 (36:27):
So yeah, excellent, that sounds awesome, nate, and
thank you so much for your time,uh, for coming on the podcast
and, uh, I hope that you do findsome stairs very soon to go for
a couple of ups and downs andget into shape.
And thanks very much forsharing your story and what you
(36:49):
do with our global audience.
So thanks for being on thepodcast.
Speaker 3 (36:54):
Thanks so much, Paul.
Thanks for having me.
Thank you.
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