Being a Massage Therapist in Professional Sports with Richard Hawes

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Eric (00:08):
Hello and welcome to another episode of Purvis Versus
.
My name is Eric Purvis.
I'm a massage therapist, coursecreator, continuing education
provider, curriculum advisor andadvocate for evidence-based
massage therapy.
In this episode, I welcomeRichard Hawes from Vancouver, bc
.
Richard is an RMT with 30 yearsof clinical experience who now
works as the RMT with theVancouver Whitecaps.

(00:28):
In this episode, richard tellsus about his journey from an
aspiring professional soccerplayer to being a police officer
in Hong Kong and how he endedup in Vancouver and became an
RMT.
Prior to joining the Whitecapsmedical team, richard's career
included having a full-timeprivate practice, being a clinic
owner and teaching at a massagetherapy school.
If you enjoy listening to mypodcast, please consider

(00:49):
supporting it by making adonation through buymeacoffeecom
slash helloob.
Purpose Versus is also onYouTube, so please check us out
there and subscribe.
So thanks for being here and Ihope you enjoy this episode.
Hello and welcome to anotherepisode of Purpose Versus.
I'm excited to have todayRichard Hawes, who is an RMT who

(01:10):
lives in the greater Vancouverarea, and this is going to be
our first episode focusing onsport and massage therapists in
sport.
Richard has a job with theVancouver Whitecaps, so he's
going to tell us a little bitabout himself and his journey
and his work working in sport,the professional soccer team.
So welcome, rich.
Thanks for being here today.

Rich (01:32):
Thank you for having me Excited to be here.

Eric (01:34):
Yeah, yeah, we had a great conversation off air, you know,
just talking about we'll callit football, because it's really
what the sport is.
It's played with our feet.
But we had a great conversationout there talking about
football and yeah, the uh, I'mreally glad we've we connected
and I met you, I guess, inperson for the first time a
couple weeks ago, but I knowwe'd connected online.
So I think there's gonna belots of fun things to talk about

(01:54):
today basically football orsoccer, I don't mind.

Rich (01:59):
Yeah, yeah, it doesn't.
You know many sort of brits getvery uh, you know, get very
upset about oh, it's not soccer.
It's not soccer.
In fact it's the most britishof words.
It was invented by the brits.
It was there.
You know, people think it wasamericans who came up with
soccer.
It's not.
It's a british word.
It was came up in um.
You know, it was came about bythe original fa football

(02:22):
association in england.
So football or soccer, itdoesn't matter.

Eric (02:26):
Yeah, because it was an abbreviation, wasn't it?
Of Football Association.

Rich (02:29):
Yeah, the SOC and Association is where they got
the, and they were trying todifferentiate it between other
forms of the game, notably rugby, which is a famous private
school in the middle of Englandwhere, whilst playing a game of
original football, a kid pickedthe ball up and ran with it, and
hence rugby was born.
But rugby is actually the nameof a school in England and it's

(02:51):
rugby football.
So, that's how that came about.
But yeah, I don't get tooworried about soccer or football
anymore.
If I was worried about that allthe time, I wouldn't have much
to worry about.

Eric (03:03):
So yeah, yeah, that's true .
It is funny, I know sometimesI'll post things online or
whatever and it's usually aEuropean will comment.
If I say soccer, They'llusually correct me and I'm like
whatever, you have to know youraudience.

Rich (03:18):
Yeah, know your audience and pick your battles, yeah.

Eric (03:22):
Don't care, I'm just so curious.
I mean, this is totally offtopic, but uh, like, where does
american football come from?
Like, how did they call thatfootball so?

Rich (03:32):
same thing in that it was a version of football.
Someone picks a ball up.
I said I don't know how thatall started, but it's just their
american version of football.
It's just you know, that's justtheir American version of
football.
It's just you know, that's justhow they.
You know there's Gaelicfootball, there's Aussie rules
football.
It's just your own sort of lawsof the game, rules of the game,

(03:53):
and then they just put footballin there.
It's just happened over time.
I don't really know the entirestory.
I just know where it comesaround with sort of football and
soccer.
But that's my, my, I don't knowthat is.
It's the American version ofthe game, the Canadian version
of of the game, that's it it'sfunny if you think about hey,
every country has like footballyeah, different versions of it.

(04:13):
It's yeah, it is what it seemsdeaf now.
Yeah, I'll change it.
It is what it is.
Yeah, no that's great.

Eric (04:21):
Uh, so, rich, tell us a little bit kind of like, tell us
more about, about, likeobviously you're not from
Vancouver, no, you have a veryun-Vancouver accent.
So tell us a little about whoyou are.

Rich (04:31):
I grew up in the UK, northwest England, a little town
called Livingston Hands.
I grew up there in a verysporting family.
My mum was a county tennisplayer, my dad had been a
footballer, I playedprofessional football and then
joined the army.
Very sporting family.
My mum was a county tennisplayer, my dad had been a
footballer, I playedprofessional football and then
joined the army, had his careerended short with a terrible

(04:53):
Achilles injury.
My younger brother was verymuch a martial artist.
He ended up coming very closeto going to the Olympic Games in
1988, I think it was SouthKorea for Taekwondo and so grew
up in a very sporting household.

(05:13):
I was very lucky enough that forme I played sort of three
sports, but two sports, excuseme, mainly was soccer and
cricket.
And I was very lucky enough togo to a school that was famed
for its sporting programs,although I would argue that it

(05:35):
is and should be famed for itswhole academic and everything.
It's pastoral care,extracurricular care.
It just happened to be a schoolof excellence in sport.
Went there.
I got a huge bursary to gothere.
I was very lucky to go there.
Millfield school in somerset inengland spent five wonderful
years there.
Um made a brave attempt atprofessional football.

(05:55):
Um, that didn't work out, sowent on to uh get a degree, a
very general degree, in sportsstudies, um, at what is now uh
university of chichester againanother great time doing that.
Um went to my first job out ofthere was as a coach for bobby
charton soccer schools.

(06:16):
So the degree was very generalin that you could do um, there
was anatomy, physiology and ascience side to it.
There was a social psychologyto it, there was coaching to it,
there was teaching in itinvolved in it.
Um, and I'd done some uh coacheducation by then and I got a
job with bobby charlton soccerschools, worked there and whilst

(06:37):
I was there I was very luckyenough to be asked to be an
assistant coach, was very luckyenough to be asked to be an
assistant coach for the HongKong under-23 team, who were
using Bobby Chan's soccerschools as a kind of conduit to
organising all their games,training sessions and everything
, and I ended up being a sort ofliaison stroke assistant coach

(07:00):
for them.
Their general manager was apolice officer in the Royal Hong
Kong Police and he and I got inlike a house on fire and at the
time I was going to go tophysio school.
Um, football wasn't going towork out for me professionally,
um, and I was going to go on tophysio school and I was at a
stage where I really just wantedto spend some time working and

(07:22):
some money.
And he said, look, rather thando a year with a soccer school,
why don't you apply for policeforce in Hong Kong and do three
or four years out there?
And if you still want to be aphysio, come back?
So I went through the arduousprocess of applying to be a
police officer in Hong Kongpolice, which I'd never seen
myself as a police officer.
But I also knew that they had afootball team that played in

(07:45):
the professional league in HongKong and Jim had said to me look
, the chances are, once you'vedone training school, you'll be
seconded to the football teamand you know you won't do a
great deal of police work.
And I thought this sounds likea backdoor way to play in
professional football again andin another part of the world.
So went through the wholeprocess of applying and you can

(08:07):
imagine going to a police force.
Um, it was a nine month process,I think, um, various interviews
and all sorts of stuff, and gotthe job, went out to hong kong,
did, uh, nine months oftraining school, um.
Then we played in the firstgame and ripped my knee apart
acl, you name it went and uh,then I remember two or three

(08:28):
months later sort of walking into see my regional commander and
sort of him saying, well, whatare you going to do now?
I said I don't know.
He said, well, you're aqualified police officer, you're
going to be a police officernow, uh, and then sort of being
a police officer for four yearsI got back to playing soccer but
I actually really enjoyed, um,life in the police force.
I was not a very good policeofficer, I'll grant you that um,

(08:50):
but I, I got to do it for fouryears but it wasn't my vocation,
it wasn't what I wanted to do.
And during that time I met my uh, my now wife, and we moved to.
She was originally fromVancouver.
We moved to Vancouver in 92.
She had had a car accident, avery minor one, but was having

(09:12):
treatment for whiplash typeinjuries and was seeing an RMT.
And I went along with her oneday and really didn't know what
to expect, to be honest.
And he was an RMT working inVancouver.
He was working in achiropractic clinic and sort of
got in and I was kind of reallysure I'm gonna see here, but
okay, and was thoroughlyimpressed by what he did and I

(09:34):
was like wow, okay, this is,this is different.
Maybe I can, you know insteadof sort of pursuing the physio
role which was going to take meanother four or five years of
education, you know, look intothis, looked into that and
blagged my way in as a foreignstudent to WCCMT and got into
WCCMT and was there for twoyears and then started

(09:57):
practicing as an RMT in 94.
Opened a clinic in 94 with aguy I met at school.
Opened a clinic in 94 with aguy I met at school and you know
we had the clinic for together15 years, myself for another
five years.
So that was a 20-year journeybeing a clinic owner.

(10:18):
And all that time I, you know wenever said that we were going
to.
I, you know we never said thatwe were going to sort of do
sport.
Sports was going to beeverything.
We wanted to be a generalpractitioner massage clinic.
We wanted to have all sorts ofpeople come in.
We were very much at the time.
In the early nineties we optedinto the medical plan.

(10:40):
You know probably 90% of RMTslisten to this probably won't
even know that term, but youcould opt into the medical plan.
Um, you know probably 90percent of RMTs listening to
this probably wouldn't even knowthat term, but you could opt
into the medical plan.
Back then, um, and you knowthere were 20 minute treatments.
You did a half hour appointmentbut a 20 minute treatment and I
really, really enjoyed it.
I really enjoyed what we did.
We opened up our own clinic.
We got busy very quickly.

(11:01):
We had great support fromaround us, from the medical
community around us, and it wasa great time.
I really enjoyed it.
We were very much on theforefront I think that would be
maybe an exaggeration, but wewere on the forefront of really
trying to immerse ourselves inthe medical community.

(11:23):
Immerse ourselves in themedical community.
Um, you know we, dave and Ilooked around at the people we
wanted to be working with.
So doctors, physios, chiros, um, and when we, you know we all,
hey, they're all wearing shirtand ties to work.
So for many years we wore ashirt and tie to work.
People thought we were crazy,but we wore a shirt and tie to
work and that was just thattrying to be one of the gang, as

(11:46):
it were and and it worked wellfor us.
You know, we opened up a clinic.
Five years later, we built asubstantially larger clinic
because we'd outgrown our clinicand we had it for uh, together
another 10 years.
Um, and yeah, that was awonderful, great time for the
most part and I will talk a bitmore in detail about it if you

(12:08):
want but decided back in 2014that I was going to close the
clinic and I wanted to dosomething different and ended up
interviewing at two places AlanMcGavin Sports Med and Fortier
Sport and Health and I felt veryfortunate.

(12:30):
They were the only two places Ireally wanted to go and work.
And I interviewed at AlanMcGavin with the two owners
there and Xenia and Ron, whowere the owners there.
I think they still are Xeniaand Ron, who were the owners
there.
I think they still are.
You know, xenia did all thetalking and Ron was just sat
looking at his computer andafter about 20-25 minutes, I'm

(12:52):
thinking well, he's got nothingto say.
He just looked at me and saidright, if you come to work for
us, what are you going to dowhen the white caps come calling
and they want you full-time.
And this was right out of theblue.
And I was like I don't thinkthe white caps are going to come
, come quickly.
He said I've been looking atyour resume, I've just been
googling you, looking at yourhistory in football.
They're going to come for you,they're going to.

(13:13):
What are you going to do?
And I I kind of sat there and Ithought how do I answer that?
I was very I think I came outwith something.
Well, I'd have to look at it atthe time and that.
But you know, in the back of myhead I'm thinking I'd probably
jump at it, but I don't see itever happening.
But anyway, I ended up choosingFortius, which was sadly
succumbed to COVID, but it was awonderful place to work.

(13:37):
I really, really enjoyedworking at Fortius forties.
If I'm honest, back in 2008, Igot diagnosed with cancer and I
spent a year and a half goingthrough cancer.
And I look at it now and I sayI got cancer, but we beat it,
and I mean that very sincerely.

(13:57):
I was the one who had it, buteverybody around me helped me
beat it, and that's not, andthat is literally everybody.
Yeah, um, anybody who's hadcancer will probably tell you,
or I hope they would tell youthat if you're an inpatient at
the bc cancer agency, which Iwas, um, they are fabulous down

(14:19):
to you know, obviously, dr kimchi was my my oncologist.
He was a fabulous man, but I godown to the orderlies, people
who want your breakfast.
You know, I remember one morningwaking up feeling terrible and
I used to open up.
They'd bring your breakfast andit was covered up and they'd
open up and I for some reasonjust loved boiled eggs at the
time.
And it wasn't a boiled egg, itwas something else.

(14:41):
And he looked at me and saidwell, what's the problem?
I said I was hoping it'd beboiled eggs every day.
After that I got the pulledeggs and it was just that.
That's their attention todetail.
Um, anyway, I digress off intoto that story.
That's another story we cantalk about.
But uh, did that and and then Ithink after that I went back to
the clinic, I, my businesspartner David, and and I decided

(15:04):
that he was going to step backfrom ownership and I was going
to take over ownership.
And I did that and I and I didit because I kind of had to,
because I didn't know what elseto do.
I got two young children at thetime.
I needed to get back to work uma year and a half off work.
My wife had sort of stoppedwork to help me and we got uh

(15:27):
you know, not hugely into debt,but it was time I had to get
back to work.
So the clinic was the theobvious option, did that?
But I very quickly realizedthat my heart wasn't in it.
Um, I'd lost the passion for it.
You know, I tell my kids nowwhatever you do, I don't care
what it is.
You know, just love what you do, have some passion for it.

(15:48):
And I had lost that.
And I knew very quickly andthat was a long five years
because I'd signed a lease forfive years and anybody who
worked with me um, back then,you know I wasn't a good clinic
owner by then.
I had no passion for it.
I sort of I was teaching at thetime, which I really enjoyed.
I taught at WCCMT and VCMT forabout 18 years, part-time, just

(16:13):
one day a week.
I really enjoyed that.
I had got to the stage where Iwas coaching a lot.
So at night I was leaving theclinic and going off and
coaching.
So I was enjoying that.
Um, I was running my ownpractice, which I was still
enjoying, but I wasn't enjoyingrunning a clinic.
I wasn't any good at it.
I you know, if you don't have apassion for it, you're not

(16:35):
prepared to daily stick with itand get up with it, then, uh,
then you need to step away fromit.
Um, had a lease.
I had to see it out, saw it outand at the end of the lease you
know remember doing, lying inbed at three o'clock in the
morning doing my own SWOTanalysis.
So strengths, weaknesses,opportunities, threats, and
doing that and, funnily enough,once I sort of done it in my

(16:55):
head and I wrote it down, it waslike, no, I still got to keep
it open.
I still got to do it.
But looking at the weaknesses,one of the weaknesses was I'm
not passionate about it anymoreand it was time, time to move on
.
So that was uh, and that waswhat stuck out and I made a, you
know, a good decision for me.
Um, thankfully, all thetherapists that worked for me
found will work very quickly andthat was good.
Um, and it was, uh, the bestdecision I ever made.

(17:18):
And I remember walking intowhen I'd interviewed at Fortius
and Erin Reid, who's a wonderfullady, um interviewing at
Fortius and she's an RMT and shesort of took me in and I never
looked back.
I thoroughly enjoyed working atFortius and I remember the
night I knew I was reallypassionate about it.

(17:39):
Quite, a well-known snowboarderin Canada, who's won one various
Olympic medals, was involved ina terrible accident and he'd
been hospitalized.
And I got a phone call.
Uh, it was like a nine, teno'clock on a saturday night.
I was sitting there watching amovie with my wife and there's a
phone call from um damianmaroney, who's the head of red
bull and he worked at 40 yearsold, had medical guy and he he

(18:01):
phoned me and he said look,so-and-so's um at a hospital.
He's been in a hospital for aweek.
He just wants to get treatment,he wants a massage and he had
multiple broken bones and allsorts of concussions and all
sorts going on.
And I remember just going andgrabbing a table from the garage
and in the car and off we goand I remember driving down to
the hotel and thinking it's aSaturday night at 10 o'clock and

(18:25):
I can't wait to go and treatthis guy and look after this guy
.

Eric (18:28):
And it was then when.

Rich (18:29):
I went OK, yeah, I'm back, passionate about what I do, and
that was.
That was great, so did that.
Sorry if this is all longwinded, keep going, it's fine,
keep going.
Yeah, did that work to Fortis?
And at the time Fortis had acontract with the Whitecaps to
provide RMT services and so wehad a team of RMTs that worked

(18:54):
like a lot of teams use thatsort of that model to have
people come in and we did acouple of days a week
post-training with the team andwe did match days and we did uh.
We did a couple days a weekpost training with the team and
we did uh match days and we dida recovery day and on occasion,
um, you would travel with theteam if they had a long road

(19:14):
trip or it was pre-season.
So I I started off uh and gotinvolved in that quite quickly
and really enjoyed that, andthat got me back, circled in,
involved in football, um, andreally enjoyed that and worked
with uh, you know, went on a fewtrips and worked with other
RMTs there.
We had a group of great RMTs atuh Fortius that worked with the

(19:37):
Whitecaps and and did that, andthen, as sort of time went on,
I found myself working more andmore with the Whitecaps and had
a meeting with the head ofperformance at the time and the
head athletic therapist and theykind of said look, the Fortis
team has grown and you've goteight or nine therapists now

(20:00):
working with the team and ourconcern is there's no continuity
of treatment and we'd reallylike to bring that team down to
a couple of therapists.
Would you be interested inleading that?
I said, well, look, that's notmy position to do that.
I, this is not my contract,it's fortius's contract.
Um, but I talked to fortius andthey were, um, they were, you

(20:22):
know, they were fine with it.
Um, they wanted to do it aswell.
They saw the reasoning behindit.
So we started to do that.
And then that was before COVID.
And then, when COVID happened,everything changed and they said
to me you've either got to bein or out.
The rules were such that notjust the rules from MLS and from
the club, but the provincialrules were that you know, you're

(20:45):
either in or you're out around.
Everyone had to create theirown bubbles and and, uh, I said,
okay, I'll come in.
And that was where my life withthe white caps really started.
Um, and I'd never really sort oflooked at it and thought, okay,
like when I started at 40s,never was like I want to get a
full-time job with the caps, Iwant to get a full-time job with
the caps.
Because I really sort of lookedat it and thought, ok, when I
started at Forties, never waslike I want to get a full time

(21:06):
job with the Caps.
I want to get a full time jobwith the Caps because I really
enjoyed working Forties.
But it kind of came around andI did a lot of volunteer work
for WFC2 while I was workingwith the Caps because I just
loved being around it.
I really really enjoyed beingaround it and it wasn't a
question of if I do this I canget a full-time job.
I just, like I say, justenjoyed the work.

(21:28):
I just, you know, we were goingfor post-training recovery and
we were supposed to be there foran hour and a half.
You know there'd be one or twoof us and if I didn't have to go
back to Forties in theafternoon, I'd stay all
afternoon and I didn't reallycare.
So it was, you know.
So I sort of without you know,I'd shown sort of willing, but
it was more.

(21:49):
I enjoyed it.
I loved being around it um, soI, I, you know it sort of came
um, but come the COVID time Iwas kind of the guy that they
asked and and again.
A long background in footballand, uh, been with the Caps ever
since and that was a very longprotracted thing that should
have lasted 30 seconds butlasted way too long.

(22:11):
I apologize.

Eric (22:12):
No, you know what?
If people don't want to listen,they can just fast forward.
I think it was great.
I thoroughly enjoyed that.
Richard, thanks for sharing.
No.

Rich (22:19):
I appreciate it.

Eric (22:19):
Because I think it's.
I mean, one thing I wanted toget was like, you know, we all
have our own stories, right, andwe all like how do we end up
where we are?
And we all go through theirexperiences, and so I think it's
valuable for, you know,hopefully people that are
listening, if maybe they're notinvolved in football, maybe
they're in baseball, hockey,whatever, or athletics of some
kind Olympics.
You know, it's interesting tohear how people got there, and
so I appreciate you sharing that.

(22:41):
I think it's great.
I mean, personally, everyonethat knows me knows I'm super
passionate about football aswell, and I still am.
If I could play more, I would,but I've had numerous knee
injuries and I'm supposed to goplay with a bunch of over 45
guys tonight that I haven'tplayed in a while and I'm

(23:03):
thinking this could be terrible.

Rich (23:07):
But it's like make sure you enjoy it.

Eric (23:09):
That's all you need to do now, just yeah exactly, and so I
like listening to your storybecause I think one thing you
said too, it was like thepassion for and the excitement
for what doing, what you'redoing, and I think that's such a
huge thing, particularly in ourworld of massage therapy, like
Like there is a lot of optionsout there for us that I think we
don't realize.
I think a lot of us just thinkI got to go work at a clinic and

(23:30):
I got to massage people andthat's all I can do, but there
is other opportunities out thereA hundred percent, I mean it is
.

Rich (23:46):
I was, you know, I taught and I would say that sort of 80
to 90 percent of the people thatgraduate out of school.
That's what they're going to do.
They're going to go work, um,in a clinic.
They might open their ownclinic.
They're going to go work withanother massage therapy clinic,
a physio clinic, chiropracticclinic, and and that's a great
start.
And I think what happens topeople is and I used to sort of
talk to students a lot about itI said, you know, don't get in a

(24:07):
rut.
Don't get in a rut of justdoing that, because it's very
easy to get into.
That's what I call practitionermindset, where here I'm busy,
I'm working four days a week,life is good, da, da, da da.
But in the back of your mindthinking, oh, I was going to do
that.
You know, I was going to open,particularly open a clinic.

(24:28):
You know people say for us, youknow, we, I had signed on the
dotted line release before I'ddone my board exams, you know,
and it was just like, yeah,that's what we're going to do.
And we did it.
We were passionate about it,did it.
We were passionate about it, um, and, and you know, I'd never

(24:48):
really I knew people who wereworking full-time in
professional sports, in coachingcapacities, um, I remember
speaking to um a guy calledrichard wong who was the
clinical director back in theearly 90s at wccmt, and he told
me about his education and he'dcome through WCCMT and all he
wanted to do was become afull-time massage therapist with

(25:09):
the sports team and, and he andhe did two.
Two years after he graduated hewas full-time with the Canucks
and he said that was my dreamjob, but he hated it.
You know, by the end of theyear he lasted a year with him.
He said I absolutely hated it.
And you know, we'll talk aboutit later probably, but it's not
for everybody.
But you have to go and findwhat it is that you want to do

(25:33):
with your education and yourskill set and go, seek it out.
And that doesn't mean you haveto do it immediately.
But don't let that dream,whatever you want to call it,
disappear into the back of yourhead and go.
It's never going to happen.
Um, you know, always sort ofkeep it, you know, in mind and
sort of.
You know, get, get theresomehow, um, and seek how you

(25:55):
get there.
And then, because there arelots of different options, you
have, um, and I think you can,you know, you, it's very easy to
get into that rut of just, oh,you know, and I, I call it.
You know, I remember working at40 years and we were, we were
very, very big on collaboration,integration, as we are working
with the whitecaps as well, andit was really interesting in

(26:16):
that people, um, they didn'treally get that until they
worked there and it was verydifficult for people to
understand what it was toproperly collaborate and
integrate.
Yeah, it was, it's.
There's a lot you can do.
There's a lot you can go and doand just make sure that you

(26:40):
keep it in mind, that's for surekeep it in mind, but that's for
sure.

Eric (26:47):
Yeah, I like, I like that.
That point too is that the um,you have to pursue your dreams.
You have to keep them, at leastkeep them in the forefront of
your mind, because if you don't,then you're probably going to
regret it, and so I would ratherpursue something and be like
and that I was really passionateabout, and think this is
terrible yeah yeah, but at leasthaving experienced that and
said, hey, I'm glad I did that,it wasn't for me.

Rich (27:06):
Yeah.

Eric (27:08):
You know and some of the things you said, too, really
resonated with me too about, youknow, owning a clinic.
Like I never really wanted toown a clinic out of school, but
it kind of happened.
It's kind of out of just lifewe had a lease that was working
for somebody else.
The lease went up, he was goingto go somewhere else and I was
like, oh, I have a practice here, oh, let's become partners.
and we opened a clinic and itwas good but, anyone that's

(27:30):
listening if they worked for mein the last couple years or
worked with me last couple years, I I was a terrible clinical.
I was totally didn't havenothing.
I didn't have anything to dowith it yeah like I just wanted
it to go away because I justdidn't have the passion for, for
working in that clinicalenvironment, because my
education and teaching and otherstuff, which is what I was had
been more passionate about,that's what was taking all my

(27:51):
energy and all my focus, and theclinic felt like, yeah, it
wasn't for me I would say for meat the beginning I, I, I was,
you know, I loved every minute I.

Rich (28:06):
I but for three or four months post, sort of at the end
of the last year, I was reallyworking hard on on um we've got
a Peloton and I was reallygetting on that and I decided I
was funny enough I was, I wastaking the car up to uh to get a
service.
I put um 30th for me and therewas a clinic that's just opened
up there and I'd seen them onInstagram and they're on

(28:26):
Instagram every day posting andgood on them they're doing their
thing and that's great.
And I thought, hmm, I'm goingto go in and get some treatment.
And I remember walking into theclinic and getting that.
Oh yeah, I remember thisfeeling Because they weren't
even open yet, they'd had a softopening and they were going
hard opening in the year.
And I sort of walked in and wentoh yeah, you can feel the

(28:48):
energy, you can feel that youknow they care about the light
bulbs, they care about this,they care about that and it's,
it's.
And you know they cared aboutyou, the patient, and I think
this is you know we'll talklater about how important that
stuff is becoming and how youknow we don't realize how
important it is and and you knowit was like wow, okay, yeah,

(29:08):
this place is.
I remember this.
I've been this sort of wow,this flashback of that keenness
that wants to to do well andthat want to be a part of the
community and it was great anduh, yeah, and you know, I hope
for them that it stays with them, you know, forever.
For me it went like this it wasa journey, it was a
rollercoaster ride.
You know, I had a businesspartner who was a great guy.

(29:32):
But having a business partneris like you see your business
partner more than you do yourwife.

Eric (29:37):
Oh 100%.

Rich (29:39):
And you know you've got to have a bloody good relationship
with them, because if you don't, you know it can get sticky
from time to time and for themost part we were fine.
There were times when it wasn'tgreat, but you know.
But you just get to a stagewhere do I really want to do
this anymore?
Um, and I know I made a greatdecision.
I remember walking in at 40thand just the people there were

(30:00):
fabulous, the practitioners Igot to work with, the amount of
learning I did there you knowI'd been practicing for what?
15 years or whatever, it was 20years um, and the amount of
learning I started to do there,working with sport chiros,
working with sport physios,working with other massage
therapists who were passionateabout working in sport, and it

(30:22):
was just, it was a, a daily dripof oh, that's interesting, how
did you do that daily drip of?
You know, and that's how Ilearned better.
I I'm not a big one for, youknow, going out and doing
courses and all that sort ofsome modality based learning.
I've never been.
I've done some of it.
I don't learn it, I'm not verygood at it, um, but going in and

(30:43):
that, that constant drip ofwatching other people,
practicing, talking to otherpeople and learning from other
people.
And you know, I remember doinga.
We used to do think tanks everymonth where we'd all get
together we'll practice there'llbe 50, 60 practitioners there
and other people working at 40sand we'd get together and we
would talk about.

(31:03):
It could be anatomy of the hip,it could be anything.
And I remember one time rickcelebrini and dr jerry ramagida.
Now jerry was the um seattleseahawks, sport cairo.
Rick is now head of medical forum golden state warriors.

(31:24):
So these are, these are, youknow, people who know their
stuff.
And I'm going in thereexpecting to get these wonderful
words of wisdom, um, but notexpecting what the words of
wisdom.
Well, the words of wisdom wasis, as practitioners, we've got
to start listening to ourpatients, and that's all jerry
said.
He said if you listen to yourpatient long enough, they'll
tell you what's wrong with themI love it we've got to stop

(31:46):
trying to jump in.
And I've taken that on board andI'm like, okay, yeah, that's
you know.
Because I look at myself saying, yeah, I'm you know, oh, you
got pain there.
Well, that'll be this, that andthe other, that, the down, you
know, I know best, and that sortof thing, and I kind of thought
, oh, these guys are, uh, youknow, uh, uh, the top of the top
of what they do.
And you know they're sayingstop, just stop and listen for a

(32:07):
while.

Eric (32:08):
And so it'll learn a lot, a lot while I was there and I'm
very grateful for my time there-yeah, that's so, that's so
powerful and that's it's so goodto hear you say that, because
you know the learning, bestclinical practice from the
people that are experienced, ontop and top of their game, so to
speak, is hugely valuable.
And it's nice to hear thatbecause you know, like just

(32:30):
listen and they'll tell youright.
And that's something that wetalk about all the time.
And if we go from an academicperspective, and what's the
research say?
It says the same frigging thing.
It's like just listen to yourpeople, like ask questions but
spend most of your timelistening rather than like
trying to like narrow down tofind the problem and so you can
fix it.
You know they'll tell you, butit's so different from how most

(32:52):
of us I can put the air quotes.
Most of us in the MSK world areeducated.

Rich (32:58):
Yeah, I would agree.
I think there is that.
I think I, you know, I workedin the schools for 18 years and
I'm a big fan of the schools.
I think they do a good job.
I think where they'restruggling is, and where our
profession is struggling, isthat it's.
You can do whatever modalityyou want and you can do it, and

(33:22):
whether it works or not is youknow, it's the narrative that we
have to change.
That's for me, anyway.
There's the rhetoric and thenarrative around what we do.
I, when I started practice, youknow, there I was shirt tight
telling people someone wouldcome in some guy's sitting over
a computer all day and he'straps or whatever, and you know

(33:42):
you'd sit there and go oh yeah,you've got trigger points in
your traps.
Now what's a trigger point?
Shown the chart, and then startto mumble on about ischemic
compression andactinomyofilaments releasing and
allowing oxygen into the bloodand all this.
And I could literallythankfully it's out of my head
now, but I could talk to gothrough that pattern in my sleep
um, and that's what we weretaught and that's what we would.

(34:05):
You know that.
That's where now, does doingcompression on a trigger point
quote unquote trigger point help?
Yeah, it might well do and thatpatient might feel better
afterwards.
But I think we we as massagetherapists are very much sort of
we're trying to justify ourexistence to a certain extent,
and so we have to come up withpseudoscience.

(34:26):
And and we're not the only ones, I mean there's other, you know
, physios do it, osteopaths doit, chiros probably do it but we
we sort of try to justify ourexistence.
I I always smile is that theright word?
I smile, but I listen to.
I listen to a lot of differentpodcasts now.
I listen to a lot of differentpodcasts now and listen to a lot
of people and I find it reallyinteresting.

(34:47):
I love listening to otherpeople talk about their their um
experience and what they do,and, and I always get something
out of it.
Um, and one of the things yousometimes hear is or, with the
bottom rung of the ladder, youknow like okay, but if you look
at yourself as the bottom rungof the ladder, you know like
okay, but if you look atyourself as the bottom rung of
the ladder, nobody else,everybody else is going to look

(35:08):
at you as the bottom rung of theladder.
You've got to stop looking atyourself like that and
understand that what you provideis unique, it's needed, it's
helpful, um, and, and don't viewyourself that way, because if
you, if you view yourself thatway, you haven't got a chance,
you know.
But people still do.
But, and that's okay, I get it.

(35:28):
But you know, change the changein mindset.
You know, change the mindset,change the rhetoric of what we
do.
Um, you know, my daughter's inphysio school right now.
She's just finishing up andshe's doing her education at a
uh, a school in london, inengland, and you know they have
a very evidence-based approach.
And you know, I was at work theother day and she phoned me we

(35:51):
were chatting about and we weretalking about something I can't
remember, it was a medical thing, and she said, oh yeah, you
massage therapist, you think youcan.
I said, oh, hang on, we'regonna have this conversation.
And I had to to go.
Someone was like wait a minute.
I said, oh, to be continued,she goes.
Oh, yeah, okay.
So we haven't continued theconversation as yet, but yeah, I

(36:13):
could go.
We haven't talked about it inWhitecaps at all and we're about
half an hour in, but I could gooff on that tangent for hours.

Eric (36:25):
Reel me back in.
Yeah, maybe, maybe part two.
No, it's great, but I, I likewe said, because this is
something that that Iexperienced and I feel too is
that the the need to justify ourexistence right is, is huge,
because, you know, now we'reobviously generalizing, there's
people that probably think thatwe're the top and some people
but I think the majority of theconversations I have with people
I don't is that representativeof the population, of our
profession, who knows?

(36:45):
But I get that all the timelike, oh well, you know it's,
we're just, we don't have adegree, we're not a degree
program, right, or you knowwe're, we're viewed as just body
rubbers and um, and so there'sthis.
I think what happens is thatthere's this, like you said,
there's this extra level ofcomplexity that we feel we need

(37:06):
to explain or to validate whatit is that we're doing or why
it's working, and I think thatjust gets in the way of like
just delivering good qualitycare to people.

Rich (37:21):
And I think we're a very insecure profession.
You know, I said and people aregoing to get angry with that
maybe I don't know, but I thinkwe are insecure.
And if you don't think we are,then why is it that you look at,
you know, various online pageswith massage therapist stuff on
it and it's like it's cyclicalevery 18 months somebody wants

(37:42):
us to change our name, you know,and historically it's, we need
to be manual therapists and I go, oh my god, I remember 1994,
being at the old physio ummassage therapy as a um college.
Well, I forget what's calledapmp, was it called?
I can't remember the old uhcollege when we were in the
physio college back then, um,and somebody getting up then and

(38:04):
saying we need to change ourname to manual therapists and
physio getting up.
So actually manual therapy is aprotected title, whatever it
was for physiotherapists and andit's cyclical.
It happens all the time like wejust let it's.
You know why?
Why do you want to change yourname?
Why massage therapy is a prettygood um title for what we do.

(38:25):
You know, and yes, I know,there's people out there doing
all sorts of wonderful thingsand good on them.
They're taking their professionoff into their own little world
.
That's great, fantastic.
But at the end of the day, thevast majority of massage
therapists you know what they goin.
They see six patients a day.
They perform massage, they usetheir modalities, they use
whatever.
They see.
Six patients a day, theyperform massage, they use their
modalities, they use whateverthey use on patients and that's

(38:47):
it.
At the end of the day they walkaway and they've done.
And if that patient walked away,and what did you do today, dear
?
Oh, I went and got a massage.
That's what we do, you know.
Don't be upset about it,because you're probably damn
good at it, because oureducation here, you know, like I
, I'll stick up for oureducation in many ways, because
I think it is good.
Can it change?
Can the narrative change?

(39:07):
Can the way that they do things?
Can it be more evidence-based?
Yes, but we all kind of knowthe battles that you know
private school systems have withthat and board exams and all
that sort of stuff.
That's a fight to be continued,or a better fight, just a a uh,
you know a challenge to becontinued, I think yeah, yeah,

(39:27):
and that's, that's a good one.

Eric (39:28):
I mean, I I talk about this stuff all the time, so I
don't need to to go into that,but the the first thing that I
would like and then some of thework that I've done with a
couple of the schools in canada,uh, is basically the first
thing that comes down to is justchanging kind of the narrative
and understanding.
Because if we think incorrectly, then we often will communicate
incorrectly and then you know,is that information harmful to

(39:50):
somebody?
Probably not, but we shouldhave, we should have that
obligation to be less wrong withour communication and our
thinking.
Because you know someone comesin and they sit in front of like
you use that example, they sitin front of computer all day and
they've got the.
You know someone comes in andthey sit in front of like you
use that example, they sit infront of computer all day and
they've got the.
You know the tight upper bodytraps and you know, do they care
if there's trigger points there?
Probably not.
Yeah, you know they.

(40:10):
They're like most I'm like.
Why do I hurt?
What can I do?
Well, can you, maybe, let's,maybe, let's get you moving a
little bit better.
Let's, let's give you someoptions so you're not sitting or
standing in one way all thetime, like I don't think we need
to complicate it no, no, butagain, I think we do and I know
I did, I'll put oh, I did I.
Yeah, me too.
I used to make it socomplicated I wanted to justify
my existence.

Rich (40:30):
So I wanted to show you that that you know, pain you got
behind your temple was areferred pain from a trigger
point up here and it was.
It was almost like you know,especially with people who were
coming in, who were referredfrom doctors who were like men
typically, who came in and theywere like I, uh, my doctors told

(40:52):
me to come here.
I'm not sure what goes on.
It's a massage place.
I've never had massage before,etc.
Etc.
And you're like okay, and youwanted to to sort of justify
yourself to them and you do yourtreatment.
They may or may not feel better.
Often they did and you givethem some exercises, give them
some movement stuff, somestretching, strengthening and
all that stuff, and they'd comeback and it's oh yeah.

(41:13):
And you know, I remember thefirst time I went in with my
wife it was like, oh, thiswasn't what I was expecting, but
we can still be that withouthaving the pseudoscience around
it.

Eric (41:23):
Yeah, yeah, I agree a hundred percent.
And then my first experiencegetting massaged when I was, I
think it was 19, and it was notat all what I expected at all
and it was in a good way, like Iwas like, oh, this is, it was
very.
It was very like sporty,orthopedic key kind of like it
was.
For people that don't know,yeah, I, you know, in bc we, I,
I remember going and it was likecost me like 10 bucks because

(41:46):
msp, you know, medical servicecovered most of it and they're
like you know it was like a 20,30 minute appointment and uh,
you know, it was like veryspecific and to the point and we
just worked on the areas thatwere sore and gave you some
exercises and it was good.
It wasn't the the kind ofrelaxation, full body, 60 minute
kind of thing which is verycommon now, for in a lot of
people's practices it's very,very different yeah, no, I.

Rich (42:08):
I like I said I enjoyed that that time working like that
, but it's just the narrativeneeded to change.
Yeah yeah.

Eric (42:18):
so yeah, let's, uh, let's, let's kind of segue then into
the we're running out of timehere about, about working with
the white caps, and that's fine,we can.
We can talk as much as we wanton this stuff.
So I guess you know, okay, youkind of told us about how you
got the job, but like, tell us alittle bit like what's a,
what's a week or a day look likefor you when you're working.

Rich (42:36):
So yeah, so I so.
So if you start at thebeginning of the season, we go
on pre-season for two months,two months, and most of that is
spent away from Vancouver.
This year we were in PalmDesert and we were in Marbella
in Spain, and the reason we dothat is because you can't trust

(42:57):
the weather here.
Fields might be iced over andyou just want to be in a warm
weather climate to do train.
So pre-season training is um,it's a lot of hard work.
It's a lot of two days.
So players are training in themorning, they'll come back in um
, they'll have lunch and thenlater on that afternoon they'll

(43:20):
be back out.
As a therapist it's also reallybusy because you're basically
beginning the day.
You're up, um, I'll be doingtreatment in the morning before
we go to training.
So that's kind of not your um.
I wouldn't say it's yourtypical pre-event type treatment
.
It's more pre-trainingtreatment.
So it's more mobility work.

(43:41):
It's more um sort of gettingpeople ready to go out and and
train, knowing that they've gotprehab to do before training.
They've also then got trained awarm-up, a dynamic warm-up,
during training.
Um come back in.
You may do some treatmentstraight after training as well.
Then it's then a couple ofhours of downtime.

(44:03):
Then again we start up againwith pre-training treatment
window.
You're treating players, comeback in dinner and then
typically there'll be a two orthree hour window for treatment
after dinner.
So it's a long day.
A typical sort of training dayin pre-season for me will start

(44:25):
at probably 7 38 o'clock in themorning, um breakfast or what
have you, and typically won'tfinish till 10, 10, 11 o'clock
at night, um, and that's notevery day for two months, but
that's a pretty typical day.
Um, obviously there'll be gamedays in there as well, where
that that changes it.
But that's your, um, your yourtypical cycle of a pre-season

(44:50):
day.
Um, you know, and then, uh, thatyou've got a lot of travel.
You've got you as a massagetherapist, as anybody.
You're doing all sorts of otherthings too, um, you, you're not
just you know.
I know a couple of people whoworked in sport who's going to
say no, no, I'm, I'm a massagetherapist.
I don't lug bags and I don't dokit.
I don't do this.
You help out wherever you'reneeded, um, and that doesn't

(45:14):
matter who you are.
Yeah, that's typical of that.
So it is a busy, busy day.
Um, you know, we didn't take ourdietician to marbella with us
this year.
So during training, um, youknow I'm the pseudo dietitian.
I'm preparing all the proteindrinks.
You know we couldn't get theright protein that we wanted
over there, so we had to takeour own protein, and that was
mixing protein.

(45:35):
So I'm, you know, um, lovinglyand jokingly known as opening
the shake shack after trainingfor everybody, and different
players have different dietaryneeds, and you know.
So you're preparing all of thatstuff for them and that's what
you do.
And then you haul it all backto the hotel, get it washed and
get ready.
So you're doing multiple littlejobs outside of your main role,
and that will be typical ofpre-season.

(45:58):
This year we also went to Mexicoin the middle of it all because
we had to play um onca calfchampions cup games, um, so we
had a trip down to mexico wherewe were two or three days down
there, played down there, andthen came back up, went to
victoria and played a game there.
Um, so it's busy, you, you, yougot a month into pre-season and
you just yearn for the regularseason because it's more

(46:21):
literally regular for your dayas well.
Um, getting, we've just startedthe season, so we've had two
games, uh, typical day um in theseason.
It is in at 7 30 we'll have a 745 medical meeting.
Um, go out for breakfast, come,come back down uh.

(46:41):
Pre-treatment, um, or sorry,pre-training treatment window.
Um, guys go and do some prehabas well out on the training
ground and then back in, uh, andthen there's another treatment
window there before and for meduring the lunch, lunch time, uh
, and then you'll sort of betreating into the early

(47:02):
afternoon and that will be atypical day.
During training I will, ifthere's players we've got on RTP
programs so return to playprograms that are injured.
You know I might be workingwith them.
If we're fortunate enough tohave all our RTP guys out on
field doing work on field, thenI might go out and help the ATs.

(47:25):
I might be doing water bottles,I might be just covering the
field and doing that.
That would be typical of atraining day.
Travel days are long days.
Travel days are essentially yougo in and do a full training

(47:45):
day and then we travel to theairport early afternoon.
We're at the airport for 2o'clock, flight goes at 3,.
Wherever you're going this week, we just got back from San Jose
.
On Friday we go to Dallas andyou know you're flying down to
San Jose.
You get to San Jose, set up atreatment room and that's the

(48:08):
traveling party in the medicalworld will be a head physio, two
of ATs and myself and we travelto every game.
So you're in, you're setting upthe clinic essentially, and
there's Normatex and game ladiesand nutrition.
That all has to be set upwhilst the players are eating.

(48:28):
We then go eat.
Players come in for a treatmentwindow afterwards.
So my day will start at 7 30 amand on, I think on friday it
ended probably about 10 o'clockand then you're uh, then you're
up for game day.
Game day is a kind of is alwaysan interesting one because it's
kind of a hurry up and wait day.
There are multiple meals.
I mean there's breakfast,there's a snack, there's lunch,

(48:52):
there's a post game meal.
So you work around that.
But it's often players are veryspecific.
Most players are very specificwith their needs.
So I'll have a particularplayer who said we go out for an
activation walk at about 11o'clock and after activation I
come and do a treatment on himPre-activation.

(49:14):
I'll have another player wholikes to get that before the
activation, pre-game.
Depend on the player.
There'll be certain things thatcertain players like
specifically to get done um, soyou kind of your treatment
window is very small, uh,pre-game, you know, your
treatment window, maybe an hourtotal, um, and if you're away

(49:36):
from home it's less than that.
At home it's a little bitlonger, but if you're away from
home it's less than that andyou've got to be quick at what
you do and you've got to knowwhat you're doing and know what
that player wants and go throughit quickly and go through your,
you know, quick assessmentquickly with them.
Often that assessment is, youknow, so you need a usual stuff.
Yeah, any problems this week,any issues?

(49:57):
No, it's been fine.
You've probably treated themduring the week anyway.
So you're on that continuity oftreatment and then it's going
and do what you do, um, get whatthey need out of it.
Then in, out for warm-ups andyou're helping.
I'll be helping outside,outside, helping the warm-ups.
If it's just getting balls ortaking water or doing anything
like that, I'll be on fielddoing that.

(50:18):
Um, again, part of my job ispreparing the um, the dressing
room at halftime.
So myself and head physio, wewe don't sit on the bench, we
can stand by the bench, or wemight go up into a box, or we
might stay in the changing roomor we might watch the game from
the tunnel.
But you know, 10-15 minutesbefore halftime we go back in

(50:40):
and prepare the dressing room.
So that's nutrition table.
You know, one of the equipmentguys will be in there putting
that out second half kit, secondhalf shirts, that sort of stuff
.
So you're preparing bananas,blocks, caffeine, electrolytes,
all that sort of stuff.
So when the players come in,it's 15 minutes and it has to be

(51:00):
seamless.
You have to be able to doeverything well, very quickly
and it's kind of everybody knowstheir job, the, the coaches
will go into the uh, there'll bea coach's room.
They'll go into there for threeto five minutes just to discuss
second half changes, tactics,whatever it may be.
And that's my time when Itypically I've got a plate of

(51:22):
bananas, a plate of blocks whichare like glucose gummies and
I'm walking around just going.
Any problems, any issues?
You okay, any problems to eachplayer?
Um, sure, no problems.
If you've been treating themduring the week or you'd treat
them pre-game, how's that anklefeeling?
How does this go?
You've got it kicked in the.
You know, you're always watchingthe game to see if players get
injured.
Now you've got two medicalprofessionals, two ATs, on the

(51:44):
bench and that's their job toattend to players during the
game.
But you're also watching thegame.
We have a physio that doesn'ttravel with us, eddie, and he'll
you know he'll text me, did yousee that?
What so-and-so just happened toso-and-so?

(52:05):
Because he's watching the gameback home.
So you're very on it during thegame, the games.
I only see probably about anhour of the game because I'll be
doing stuff in the dressingroom, getting stuff ready or
what have you.
But when you're out thereyou're trying to be as a
football person, you're kind ofenjoying the game, but as a
medical person you're trying tobe OK.
What happened here?
What happened there?
Is he OK?
How's he looking?
You know you might have a playerwho has just got back from an

(52:27):
injury and is he lookingfatigued?
Does he need to come off?
And you know we'll have thosemake those decisions.
Well, I don't make thosedecisions.
I help observe and helpcontribute to those decisions if
they need to be made.
But typically there's otherpeople that are doing that.
So that would be a typical gameday, a typical travel day.

(52:51):
Game days at home are basicallythe same but we go in earlier.
If it's a 7 o'clock kickoff,I'll be in around 4 o'clock in
the afternoon and help set upand go, go through the same,
essentially the same stuff there.
Um, we work on a on a game dayminus four, game day minus three
, game day minus two, game dayminus one.

(53:11):
Um, so periodization, that themicro cycle or the real micro,
something mini micro cycle ofthat is that weekly thing.
So tomorrow, for instance, wego into game day minus four.
So I know tomorrow there willbe a significant load on the
players.
Um, game day minus three is thebiggest load on the players in

(53:32):
terms of what they uh, theamount of stress that they'll be
put through physically on field.
Um, so you kind of know that wehave very accurate resources and
technology to tell us exactlywhat a player's done.
They all wear catapult monitors.
So I get a report every day.
All the medical team, all theperformance team, get a report

(53:54):
every day of what a player didthe day before.
Well, we actually get it anhour or so after the training
session and the game so I canlook at that data and I can tell
you how far someone ran, howmuch high speed distance they
did, how much sprint distancethey did, how many individual
sprints they did, different IMAs, which is how much their body

(54:16):
moved in certain situations, andso you build a picture from
that.
So, on the plane coming homeI'll get that and I'll look at
it and go, okay, might have arecovery day.
The next day will be a recoveryday, potentially or we do 48
hours afterwards, um two daysafter.
You know I can get glean someinformation from that.
If someone's done, you know, uh, 12, 13k and they normally do

(54:41):
11k, you might expect, okay,he's going to come in, might
come in a couple of days and say, yeah, I'm feeling really heavy
, my legs are heavy, I've got alot of doms going on, um, so you
can glean some information fromthat.
Um, but it's more you know, umthe uh conversations you have
with players.
I'll be on the plane, you know,watching a movie or something.

(55:02):
I'll go for a walk back to theplane, you know, watching a
movie or something, and I'll gofor a walk back to the plane and
just check in with a few guys.
How are you feeling?
How are you doing?
Yeah, all right, I'm a bit sore.
You know, on a day like todaywith certain players, I'll go in
Even though it's a day off forus.
I'll text the guy and say howare you feeling?
Do you mind coming in?
Yeah, okay, sort of typicalworking life as an RMT, working

(55:28):
in a, in a, in a professionalsports team.
Um, I'm very lucky and I'mblessed to do what I do.
I work with some fantasticpeople.
I mean some people that youknow.
You know I have Wint, missFranks, jp, john Polly.
You know a lot of these people.
You know their knowledge andtheir understanding of what they

(55:49):
do.
You know data science orperformance physio, whatever you
know.
I'm very lucky to work withthem on a daily basis and you
learn every day and you listenevery day and you contribute in
medical meetings that they willturn around to me and say what
do you think?
So you contribute in thosemeetings?
Um, and you better contributethose meetings because if you
sit there with and have nothingto say, it's like what are you

(56:10):
doing there?
So I'm very lucky in theintegration and collaboration I
had a medical and sort of thatside of it Ben Spore.
He's done a good job of makingsure that our integration and
collaboration is phenomenal.
How much we're always, you know, talking to each other in
meetings.
There's so much data that it'scollected.

(56:32):
Um, you know, it is, it's uh,it's, it's quite staggering.
People know, I often think, youknow, people come and they will
talk to me and they'll say, oh,I really, you know, talk to
other rmts and you can tell theyknow that you're so lucky to
work.
You know, and I am, but it'snot for everybody, you know, I,
I kind of, if I go back a littlebit, I, I did the traditional

(56:54):
sort of rmt involved in sporttype thing where I would go and
work different events, um,starting from in school, doing
10k runs, and we worked at that,working at marathons.
The hardest day of work I everdid was like that.
I mean, I worked, uh, when Iwas recovering from cancer.
I, um, I did the right toconquer cancer and I said, oh, I

(57:15):
wanted to do RMT split.
They did it over two days backthen and I'll join the RMT team
and I'll come in and get Robinout.
Really, look forward to it.
And there wasn't a massagetherapist.
There me, two other guys, onewas a chiro, one was a massage
therapist and we started working.
This first cyclist came inabout 11, 11, 12 o'clock in the

(57:38):
morning, was surrey down tohalfway to seattle and we didn't
stop working till four in themorning.
And it was just you couldn't.
Because this line was justthere and it was just like, um,
yeah, it was, it was, it wasnuts, so it's, it's not for
everyone, because you know, you,you're, I'm immersed in it.
You know I'm lucky enough that Ihave a family.

(57:59):
My kids are grown now, they'reyoung adults.
Um, my daughter doesn't live,lives in england.
My son lives with us but he'sfinishing up his education.
Um, my wife knows how much Ilove what I do and she's kind of
like, yeah, because you're awayfrom your family a lot, if
you've got a young family, it'stough and we have people, young
families, and it's tough andit's not easy.

(58:21):
Um, and even if you don't have ayoung family, you know you
can't.
You know if you play on asports team yourself, you really
can't because you're busy everyweekend.
So you're doing something everyweekend.
I really don't differentiatebetween Tuesday and Saturday
anymore, apart from one isprobably a game day and one's a
training day.
So your weekends are not yourown.

(58:43):
So when you do get, you knowwe've just had two days off.
I'm on day two of two days offand we never get two days off.
You know, this is like wow,I've got a second day off.
This is fabulous, you know, andwe're also.
We'll get back in and said, Imean, you see, we've got another
two days coming up and thenwe'll be four months one day off
.
And that one day off may be aday after you've arrived on a

(59:04):
plane at four o'clock in themorning, um, and that your next
day's off and you're back towork.
So it's not for everybody.
Um, I, I take my hat off to youknow people who work in that,
so I would call that typicalsports massage therapy life, and
that they're going in andthey're working with the team
and then they're back to work atclinic.

(59:25):
I, I know that for me it was.
It was very much a case of Ienjoyed doing that, but I, I, I
did really have that sort ofyearning to work.

Eric (59:37):
I'd love to work full-time with the team, um, and I I'm
very lucky to do that I reallyenjoy it, so yeah, well the way
you describe that right, andthanks for sharing all that's
tons of.
That's a fantastic amount ofinformation and just like fills
a lot of gaps of things.
I have no idea how they work,so I appreciate you taking the
time to explain.
That was appealing to somepeople and to you, and I think

(59:59):
it would be appealing to someonethat was the one to work in
sport or someone that washeavily loved football, whatever
the sport is that they'reinterested in.
Uh, you're fully integratedwith the team.
It sounds like you know all theplayers you that they're
interested in.
Uh, you're fully integratedwith the team.
It sounds like you know all theplayers.
You're, you're part of the.
You're like, you're, you're inthere with the medical team,
unlike that traditional approachwhere people just come in, they
work, they give massage andthey leave like you're there and

(01:00:20):
you're.

Rich (01:00:21):
You're not doing massage all day no, I mean, I, I, you
know, I remember, um, you know,working with other sports
organizations, and you'd havethe ATs, physios, chiros,
whatever it may be, the sportsmedicine people, and then, oh
yeah, the massage room's downthere and I'd be like, yeah,
okay, it's great being there,it's great doing that, but I

(01:00:43):
want to be in that room, I wantto be in those meetings, I want
to be part of that, I want to befully integrated in this.
And that's where, you know,when you become fully excuse me,
fully integrated in it, youkind of go, wow, okay, there's a
lot to this, um, and it's verydifferent from you know, and
there's people, I think, who,who, like I say, would want to

(01:01:03):
do it.
But you come into it, it's,it's a you know, it absorbs you,
it you know it does me anyway Ican't say that for everybody,
probably I don't know, but itdoes it.
But you know, I mean I'm very,very lucky.
You know, in the at the end ofthe season I get, you know, the
better part of two months offfully paid.
Not many rmts can say I get twomonths off fully paid.

(01:01:25):
So you know, I'm extremelyfortunate and lucky.
Now the irony of that is, atthe end of the season I enjoy
the first week to 10 days andthen I want to go back to work.
You know, I sort of sit theregoing, okay, what I'm going to
do today, okay, I'll walk dog,I'll get on the peloton, I'll
maybe do a lift, I'll.
You know, I will go out with mywife, we're going to do this.

(01:01:46):
But I'm kind of like, you know,I'm ready to go back to work,
um, and I I, you know, andthat'll go out with my wife,
we'll go and do this.
But I'm kind of like, you know,I'm I'm ready to go back to
work and I, you know, and that'swhy I sort of go back about
that.
You know, that passion of whenI owned a clinic, I didn't have
that, and then now, that's why Iconsider myself extremely lucky
and blessed really to to, to,to do what I do, because you,

(01:02:08):
you know, I enjoy every minuteof it.
Um, you know, travel days I'mup at you know six o'clock,
whatever it is, and into workmeetings at seven, something,
still working at 10 o'clock, uh,so what?
Yeah, I've loved every minuteof it and you are, you're very
much integrated with the teamand that's a really, it's a
really interesting one.
When it comes to the coursesthat we've all had to recently

(01:02:35):
do and the relationships thatyou're allowed and not allowed
to have and you should andshouldn't have with patients, I
see these guys every day.
I can firmly say there arepeople who I've become friends
with, who are ex-players, whoare players that used to play at
a club, some that play at aclub now.
I'm invited to weddings.
I'm, you know I go.

(01:02:56):
I do keep a professionaldistance, but I'll also, you
know I'll.
Also, when we were I'll give youan example when we were in Salt
Lake, there was one particularplayer who I think he was
struggling, but he was kind oflonely and what have you and I,
you know, went okay, I'm goingto take him golfing.

(01:03:17):
And we went golfing, just gavehim that sort of.
We were in Salt Lake for fourmonths during COVID.
They moved the whole club downthere.
So you have it's a little bitof pastoral care sometimes in
our work and it's a little bitof you know, and we spend more
time.
And I remember chatting with ourum performance site guy.

(01:03:38):
Dr cox was a hall of fame, youknow, guy, and a wonderful man.
I can listen to him all daytalking um.
But you know, I, I remembergetting into it with a young
player and sort of you knowthinking OK, am I overstepping
my boundary here?
And I remember going to talk tohim about it and he said you
are doing a fantastic job withhim.
Do not stop what you're doing,because you've created a

(01:03:59):
connection with him and it isbenefiting him.
I know it's benefiting himbecause I'm talking.
So don't stop.
You're not crossing any lines.
You're not doing anybody else'sjob because it's whilst you
always have other things to do,you better stay in your lane as
well.
You know.
You need to understand that.
You know I, I, I, you know Ihave an instagram account.

(01:04:23):
It's not a work instagramaccount, although I'm thinking
of setting one up, but it's moreI.
I follow a lot of other rmtsonline.
I think you wouldn't do well inthat situation.
You think you would do well,but you wouldn't, because you
want to be off doing that andyou want to be off doing
something else and you want tobe off doing things.
That if you come in as an rmt,be an rmt, that's your job.

(01:04:46):
Yes, you're going to.
You know, slowly but surely,you'll get trusted and you'll
get and you'll start to do otherthings that they want you to do
.
Um, but stay in your lane is isa big part of it, but it's
difficult because you stay inyour lane but there's a hell of
integration and collaborationthat goes on, so you know um,
but that's that's kind of askill that you learn when you
come into it yeah, yeah, yeah,and that's the thing I've heard

(01:05:08):
that before from talking toother people about.

Eric (01:05:10):
You know, working in sport is like like you have your role
and like don't question, youknow, you just kind of you have
those expectations for you, andI think that's probably a pretty
valuable piece of informationfor people to understand once
you get in there.

Rich (01:05:24):
It's like I remember when I first got asked why, nine
years ago, I went away with theteam for the first time.
I went away with the team.
We were away for a 10-day roadtrip and at the end of it the
ops manager and the head AT wewent out for dinner and they
were like, if we had a full-timejob, would you want it?
And I'm like no, because youwere like so good this last 10

(01:05:49):
days you did this, you did thatwhen stuff needed hauling off
buses you did that.
You were available fortreatment all the time to the
players and I thought I was justdoing what I thought was the
right thing.
I didn't think I was doinganything special, um, but
apparently that's not always thecase.
You know, people come in andthey they don't not particularly
with us, I wouldn't say.

(01:06:09):
But you know, I've heard of itfrom you know, I'm trying to
liaise with other um rmt's.
Part of what I'm trying to dois liaise with other rmt's in
the league because thedieticians all have a whatsapp
group and the ats have anassociation there and I'm kind
of like, okay, we need to sortof set up with the rmt's,
because not all clubs have afull-time RMT and start a little

(01:06:31):
thing there maybe a sort ofsomewhat educational thing and
find out what life's like inyour club and what it's like at
my club and we can meet up andwe come down there or you come
up here and just perhaps startto form a community, you know,
and make it maybe have aneducational piece to it.
I don't know yet, but that'sanother sort of thing for the
future I'm thinking yeah, I loveit that's a great, that's a.

Eric (01:06:52):
That's a brilliant idea.
And because so?
I guess because you're the onlyrmt there you like?
How long are treatments from?
Like?
They must be pretty quick ifyou have to see a bunch of yes
so that's actually that's nottrue.

Rich (01:07:05):
We have um, uh, second I think her title is second
assistant AT is also a trainedmassage therapist.
Ok, so they, we hired them lastyear and it was like part of
the hiring process was theyneeded.
We are mandated to have threeathletic therapists.

(01:07:26):
The league mandate you have tohave three athletic therapists
and that's all you have to haveas a medical team.
Um, we're very fortunate inthat we have a large medical
team, um, but uh head at lastyear said to me look, you get
soft tissue treatment getsutilized so much and you get
sort of utilized so much.

(01:07:47):
We're looking for an at slashrmt.
So we have um, she emily's comeon and so she does uh a lot of
um soft tissue work as well andshe's primarily doing an at role
um, but she's also helping outme and um and that's been good
because you know I get utilizeda lot and it's so typically you

(01:08:12):
know to answer your questiontreatments, depending on what
I'm trying to do.
So I will have uh one athletewho will not say, for instance,
will not sort of come in whenthere's a lot of athletes, that
he'll wait for everyone to leaveand he'll get a treatment in
the mid-afternoon when most ofthe players have left and the
place is a little quieter, um,and that will generally be an

(01:08:33):
hour and I'll spend an hour withhim.
Um, if it's a pre um,pre-training treatment, it might
be.
A guy might just come out andsay rich, can you mobilize my
right ankle?
So I'll just do somemobilization stuff on his right
ankle.
That could be 10 minutes.
Typically you're workingpre-game um, you're working 15

(01:08:56):
minutes with an athlete, um,depending, again, depends on
what they need, what they wantand how many athletes want to
utilize you before, before agame.
Um, half time, it's fiveminutes, you know it's, it's
quick, and so we play ondifferent surfaces.
You know we play on um fieldturf and we play on grass and so

(01:09:16):
you know your different surface.
Player will come and say, yeah,the car, my car's in back.
Okay, there's a table.
Well, I'll have the table inthe changing room and the
athlete might be on the tableduring the coaches talking to
the team and highlightingsomething on the board and I'm
not working there.
That could be short as fiveminutes, um, so it depends on
what you're doing post treatment.

(01:09:36):
Uh, sorry, post training,typically a half hour treatment.
It's what?
Um, you know what we would calla flush?
Um, it's a sports specific termin the massage therapy world
and that's you know sounds.
It's just basically a lot ofeffleurage and a lot of helping
that athlete um, recover, um, soyou, you know, and then, uh,

(01:09:57):
recovery days a little longer.
Uh, you're just doing basicallyrecovery flashes.
It's no great science in it, um, it's something that all rnts
can do um.
But again, I would challengeyou that it's not so much it is
what you're doing hands-on, butit's also that therapeutic
alliance that you have with thatathlete.

(01:10:18):
That is what really makes adifference.
That's what I think anyway.
I think there's plenty ofpeople probably can do just as
good as I do hands-on, but it'sthat therapeutic alliance that
you develop with individuals andas a group and with the team
that you work with in terms ofplayers and staff as well.

Eric (01:10:41):
So, yeah, so that would be a typical sort of timeline for
treatments, yeah and that's animportant point too, I think, to
emphasize is to emphasize isthe, you know, it's the
relationships, that therapeuticalliance, because you know,
particularly in sports, right,it's so much of it's
psychological.

Rich (01:11:00):
Oh yeah, I mean it's it's.
I can't, yeah, I can't sort ofemphasize that enough because it
is, it is and you do become.
You know you, you gotta be, yoube.
You're very careful not toovershadow.
You know, I've been a coach allmy life.
I coach at UBC now, so you knowpeople say, well, don't get
involved with the coaching,don't get involved with coaching
.
And I'm not, absolutely not.
That is not my role.

(01:11:21):
And if ever I had an athlete onthe table and I started telling
them what to do, you know I'dbe out of my ear.
You know I would.
You know it's not what I'mthere to do.
You have to know what your roleis.
Now.
Do we talk about the game?
Do we talk about things thathappened in the game, the sort

(01:11:44):
of things that the oppositiondid or weakened, or could have
done?
You know for sure, all the time.
But I don't cross that line, Idon't.
You know for sure all the time,um, but I don't cross that line
, I don't, I don't know.
You know, and so you have toknow what you're doing.
But you, it's just aboutdeveloping the right
relationships with athletes andthat, uh, you know that
relationship as a therapist andathlete it's.
It's not always easy, um, butyeah, it's good, it's, it's what

(01:12:05):
you're doing and I like that.
I mean you know other peoplehave.
You know how many differentpatients they treat in a year.
I treat typically about 27 guysa year, that's it.
So you know some of those guysI'll treat four or five times a
week, some guys once every threemonths.
You know some guys don't likegetting massaged.

(01:12:26):
It's amazing what thetraditional sports massage
theory is and what it's like inreal life for me.
You know, because you'll getguys.
I remember last year treating acouple of players.
Both had played national team,both experienced players, and

(01:12:47):
you know one was talking to theother and I was doing a
quote-unquote release treatmenton him, game day minus one, um,
and he would come in everythingevery day would take me about
half an hour, very specific, uh,hip thing and um, but it was
very much really.
And the other guy was sayingthe same said oh yeah, I'm on
after you, okay, great, what areyou, what are you getting done?

(01:13:08):
So I'm just having a nice flushand he's going you get a flush
game day minus one.
Seriously, he's like oh yeah,wow, how are you?
And it was almost like he wassaying how are you able to play
tomorrow when someone's massagedyour legs like that the day
before and I'm sitting there?
really okay, it's different andyou hear all the time, people
have very specific needs.

(01:13:28):
Now, if you look at thetraditional sports massage
theory and it's a goodfoundation to work on, but you
know, I saw someone where it wasInstagram or somewhere.
You know go to Instagram, butyou know it was.

(01:13:49):
You can't do this with anathlete before going.
Really, why not?
Because I do that with severalathletes and it's like crikey,
why, um, we can no, why, whatare we talking about?
Okay, well, that's your, you doyou, um, but they're very and
athletes today are very in ourworld, are very knowledgeable.

(01:14:13):
A lot of them are veryknowledgeable.
They won't come in and say, oh,you know, I'm outside of my hip
set and they'll say can youjust do some work on my TFLs?
You know my rec fem.
If you're just doing it for myrec fem, I need some psoas
release.
Or you know, you're like okay,let's get on the table and do

(01:14:35):
some movement and see if thathelps, rather than digging my
hands through all your guts andeverything um, very, very
knowledgeable about.
A lot of athletes are veryknowledgeable.
They, they realize that their,their career is short and you
know so they, a lot of athletes.
Now they get on the table andthey want to know what's going
on.
They want to learn what's goingon.
They're not uh, back in my dayit was more just oh, yeah, okay,
just go and do what you have todo.
Um, now it's.

(01:14:56):
You know, I find a lot ofathletes are very uh, very they
want to be knowledgeable aboutwhat they're doing and what
you're doing with them and whatyou're trying to help them with,
and they think they're prettygood at that.

Eric (01:15:07):
Yeah, that's good, yeah like I said, there's so much
more information available now,too, than there would have been
when 100.
I was younger, or when you wereyounger, right like I didn't
know anything yeah, no, I, I,you know, I.

Rich (01:15:19):
I remember when I I um did my acl and everything.
I remember that I swelled uppretty quickly.
Um, they tested it because ofthe sweat and they really didn't
get any good results fromtesting.
And then the next day I went inand they, you know, I saw the
club physio and he said, yeah,you've probably torn your acl.
Um, I'm like, okay, what's thatmean?

(01:15:40):
And I'd done a degree in sportby this time.
I really didn't know what thatimplied.
Um, I knew what it was, but Ididn't really know the
implications of it.
Again, you know, I remember.
Now, you know every athleteknows that particular one and
others.
But I remember, you know, agame a good few years ago now.

(01:16:02):
A young lad making his debutcame on off the bench two
minutes, knee injury came offand I was in the treatment room
at the stadium and um, uh,orthopedic surgeon bob mccormick
was there, rick salabrini wasthere and I watched um, an
orthopedic doctor, do anassessment on a knee and I

(01:16:25):
watched everything that went onand I could see, you could.
It was pretty obvious what wasgoing on and it was a.
You know, everything's horribleto watch in some ways, but it
was also watching um, someone gothrough that with him and he
went through it, didn't sayanything to him, did it and
afterwards the way that heexplained it to him and the way
that he went through thestructures of the knee and went

(01:16:46):
through everything very calmly,and then the end of it said and
you have, um, what feels like acomplete rupture of your acl and
this is the plan, this is whatwe're going to do.
They'd already in his mind saidtomorrow you're going to do this
, you're going to come in, we'regoing to mri, we're going to do
this and you're going to haveprobably have this surgery and
we're going to go through itthis way and it was just even

(01:17:09):
things like that.
You sort of okay, that's well.
That was really good because hecontrolled the narrative with
the athlete.
The athlete knew and wasvisibly upset, but the way that
it was done was was reallyreally professional and, and you
know, top drawer was and youlearn from that.
You need to learn from that.
You need to pick up, okay, howhe discusses stuff with athletes

(01:17:29):
and take something from it allthe time.

Eric (01:17:34):
I learned a lot from my injuries and observing how
physios and the doctors andsurgeons interacted with me and
it's pretty powerful.

Rich (01:17:45):
Yeah, oh no, it is, it's.
You know I don't think we oftentake enough account for if
you're going to tell somebodythat they've got a particularly
significant injury, you know howyou deliver that news.
I listened to various podcasts.

(01:18:06):
I was listening to what was it?
The FMPA the Football MedicalPractitioners Association
podcast and they had sat on lastweek an orthopedic surgeon in
England and he's done a lot offabulous work in ACL
reconstruction and I waslistening to his stuff and he
was saying that you know it's soimportant that when you're

(01:18:29):
giving an athlete this news,that you're giving them a plan
as well, you're not just hangingthem up to dry.
Now in our world we don't.
I have done, uh, certainly whenI was in.
You know, general practice.
You, you know you had weekendwarriors come in in the morning.
So what's wrong with my knee?
You have to deliver that.
You might have to deliver.
You know it feels like this andthis, you know, but it was just

(01:18:50):
the way that he talked aboutmaking sure that they have a
plan, making sure that, howeverbad the injury is, this is the
plan going forward.
This might end your career, butthis is what we're going to do.
This is how the plan is goingto work.
This is what you know we'regoing to do tomorrow.
What can I do the next day?
If you need surgery, we're notgoing to do it tomorrow because
we want that knee to settle down.
It's an angry knee right nowand calm it down and go from

(01:19:12):
there.
And you, I think that's again,you know, for me, my, my
learning experience is, you know, I struggled in school.
I wasn't, I was struggling inin, you know, in high school,
you know getting a degree was,was I had to work hard to get
that or not hard, I would say.
But you know, getting a degreewas I had to work hard to get
that or not hard, I would say.
But you know, I then went intopolice force.

(01:19:33):
I had to do nine months of lawtraining and then medical
training during massage therapyschool and I struggled with it.
So for me, I learned from thatsituation.
I learned from excuse me, Ilearned more from watching other
people work, listening topodcasts, listening to your

(01:19:55):
stuff, you know, and the greatstuff that you put out there and
other people put out there andI don't get siloed into, I'm
just listening to one set, whatI that, that echo chamber of
listening to your own stuff.
I listen to stuff that I want.
No, I'm not going to agree with, but I'll look for some
learnings in it.
Um, but I'm lucky that every dayin the environment I work in

(01:20:17):
and this is, I think, a bigthing for rmts is you work in a
closed space and most rmts yougo into a closed space, you work
, you come out, you work.
So I'm very lucky I work inopen space.
I worked with, uh, dr eric.
You was a performance car andI've learned a lot of stuff just
watching him work.
He now works with the canucksand you know, and chris, eddie,

(01:20:38):
um, mike, you know, emily thepeople I work with work.
I just, you know you'rethieving stuff.
Basically it's oh, how'd you dothat?
And I see some of the stuff Ido appear on their tables from
time to time.
So you're always trying to.
You know you can learn everyday.
You know I'm lucky for that.

Eric (01:20:57):
Well, and you can tell it resonates in how you're, just
the way you speak about this,richard is the passion Some
take-home messages I think forpeople listening is that if
you're not passionate, yeah, yougot something to be passionate
about yeah, and it's not alwayseasy.

Rich (01:21:13):
I tell them, you know my kids, you know, whatever you do,
just be passionate about it.
You know my daughter's um.
You know she's right at the endof her physio training now and
she loves it and she's she wantsto go down the sports route, um
, and she probably will my son'sin the film industry.
I tell him, you know, just lovewhat you do, and if you don't
love it, it's going to be a longold, 40 years of work.

(01:21:35):
And you know, go out and dothat.
It's interesting you talk about.
You know I get RMTs get intouch with me and that's great.
And you know, is there anychance of work?
And RMT's get in touch with me,and that's great.
And you know, is there anychance of work?
And it's that and the other.
Sometimes we do try to getpeople in and sometimes most of
the time we can't, but I'malways interested in what they

(01:21:58):
think they need to do to givethemselves a chance to get into
full time professional sport.
If that's what they want to do,I'm always sort of yeah, okay,
you can go on to um.
You know canadian sportsmassage therapy association I
I'm not a member of that.
I've never been a member ofthat, which is the way I wanted

(01:22:20):
to go about it, but I'm surethey've got good stuff and go
and be a part of that andthat'll stand you in good stead,
um, but in terms of educationwise, I don't need you to go and
do you know all sorts ofdifferent technique stuff.
What I what I'm interested inis is you know, have you, have
you done if it's soccer anyway,um, you know, have you done

(01:22:42):
fifa's medical diploma?
They have a free online medicaldiploma and it sounds very posh
, you know.
Good people ask me.
I said oh yeah, I've done umfifa's medical diploma and it's,
you know, it's not a medicaldiploma.
It's a lot of great medicalstuff and it I did it.
I think I did it during covidand, and you know, it's an

(01:23:02):
online course.
You don't have to pay for it.
It's free, but there's lots ofgreat information in there.
Um, the, the fmpa, have a um, adiploma.
They call it um, which is Ithink it's called diploma, which
is an entry into professionalsport.
So if you're a therapist andyou want to get into
professional sport, um, theyhave a course, an online course.

(01:23:27):
You know, now I'm much moreinterested in people who've gone
and done that, because that'spreparing for you.
How do you deal with data?
How do you deal with multipledifferent things that you
probably don't know that you'regoing to have to deal with if
you get into full-timeprofessional sport?
You know, if you're really keen,university of Lancaster, do a

(01:23:48):
medical football leadershipmaster's.
You know we've got one of ourit's doing that.
I very nearly signed up for itmyself, um, but at nearly 60
years old I'm like, do I want tosign up to doing a master's now
?
And then a friend of mine who'san rmt as well, who's, you know
, 25 years and he's great, he'sdoing a master's, um, a

(01:24:08):
different.
So he said, of course you do,just do it.
I'm like, oh goodness, you knowI never did well with formal
education.
I don't know whether it's upthere for me, but that's, you
know it's kind of like deviate alittle bit from the norm.
You know, go and seek stuff, goand find stuff, and I'm sure

(01:24:37):
that there are other sports thathave all that available to you
too.
And that's what I would be, umsaying to to, uh, young
therapists who want to getinvolved and want to do that.
Then if you want to do theeducational part of it, sure do
all your courses that you wouldtypically do and all those you
know.
If you want to do modality,different courses, you go do
that.
But I'm not going to sit hereand look at all that stuff and
go, wow, you can do this, thatand the other.
You did a weekend course insomething that you know.

(01:24:58):
Okay, it might be good, itmight not be.
It's a tool for you and you useit and good for you.
Um, I'm more interested inpeople who have I would be more
interested anyway, in people whohave gone and gone sport
specific and learned about whatlife is like working full-time
in professional sport, becauseit's not like I say, it's not
for everybody, um, it's, it'snot, um, but yeah, that's that's

(01:25:21):
sort of where I would go withit anyway, um, but for sure, but
it's, you know everyone totheir own age thing yeah, yeah,
well, and things do is, you know, you're never too old to learn.

Eric (01:25:33):
You know, I, I did my master's when I was 40 and, uh,
you know, at the time I feltlike I was old to do, old to do
it, and but now, you know don'tlet my family hear me say this
but like I would, I would, I'dlove to, but I love learning, I,
I love, I love the educationand so, uh, you know, if I was
60, would I, would I, if I hadan opportunity to, to learn

(01:25:54):
something, maybe yeah, I, I knowm is doing it and and I was
talking to her, I said, was thatthe one with mark levin?

Rich (01:26:03):
she said, oh, yeah, you know.
I said yeah.
He said, why are you doing it?
I said, well, because in thething it doesn't say that
massage therapist can do it.
It's all physios and I'mlooking for an excuse.
Yeah, or you know, you couldsend your thing in and they'd
let you on the course.
They for sure would want you onthe course.
I'm like, oh god, there'sanother reason I can't say no to
it, but we'll see, I may, still, may, still do it.

Eric (01:26:24):
Yeah, love it.
Love it.
Well, thanks rich for today.
That was fantastic.
I really enjoyed theconversation.
Lots of some more things wecould talk about, so maybe we'll
we'll get another one going onin the future, but I I enjoyed
it.
I hope I uh long-winded ah,that's okay, it was fantastic.
So thank you, uh, good luckwith the the road trip this

(01:26:44):
weekend thank you appreciate it.

Rich (01:26:46):
Yeah, really do.
Well done to all the work thatyou do as well.
I really enjoy it.

Eric (01:26:51):
Thank you very much.
I appreciate it.
Bye.
I appreciate all your listenersfor taking the time to be here.
If you enjoyed this episode,please give it a five-star
rating and share it on yourfavorite social media platforms.
You can follow me on Instagramor Facebook at Eric Purvis RMT,
and please head over to mywebsite, ericpurviscom to see a
full listing of all my livecourses, webinars and

(01:27:11):
self-directed course options.
Until next time, thanks forlistening.

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