October 4, 2023 • 71 mins
Today, we're thrilled to introduce you to Susan Dupuis, an RMT and educator from Manitoba. She's here to engage us in a poignant dialogue about cultural safety and reconciliation. Our conversation kicks off with a symbolic offering of tobacco, setting the stage for a respectful and open discussion. Get an insight into Susan's captivating presentation titled, "10 Things for RMTs to Learn about Reconciliation" and explore her background, and her educational journey.
Listen closely as Susan reveals what inspired her to enter the realm of education and her thoughts on cultivating therapists. We then shift our lens to the profound issue of intergenerational trauma and the power of touch, linking it to our nervous system and our inherent need for emotional bonding.
Our conversation takes a heartfelt turn as Susan recounts her personal quest of reconnecting with her Anishinaabe identity. Learn how this newfound understanding led her to question the potential impact of therapist age on the profession and the concept of Indigenous massage therapy. As we wrap up, reflect with us on the criticality of addressing intergenerational trauma and the importance of reclaiming an Indigenous identity for RMTs and their clients.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Eric (00:12):
Hello and welcome to the Purves vs Podcast.
My name is Eric Purves.
I am an RMT course creator,continuing education provider
and advocate for evidence basedmassage therapy.
Thank you for being here today.
This is one of the mostimpactful and most powerful
conversations I have everexperienced.
In this episode, I welcomeSusan DuPuis, who is an RMT and
brand in Manitoba.
(00:32):
Susan has been doing workeducating RMTs about cultural
safety with a fantasticpresentation called 10 Things
for RMTs to Learn aboutReconciliation.
Susan brings up many importanttopics that we need to discuss
more openly in our society.
So please listen to thisepisode in its entirety and take
the time for some selfreflection afterwards.
Susan (00:53):
Eric, thank you so much for inviting me onto your
podcast and inviting me to sharewith your listeners, I guess,
some of the things that I'mdoing as an RMT and I guess as a
blossoming educator or someonewho's taking their first steps
in that direction, in this field.
Anyway, to begin ourconversation, they always say,
(01:20):
like are they meaningtraditional teachers in
Anishinaabe culture?
And it seems to be consistentamong many indigenous cultures
in North America, as far as Iknow, which is to it's tobacco
first.
So you always start withtobacco and the reason why
(01:40):
tobacco first is it's a tobaccooffering.
Okay, and the tobacco offeringis basically to for us to have a
really good conversation.
This conversation has the powerto possibly change minds, change
(02:00):
direct trajectories, even liketo go within a little bit more
and consider.
So, because it is such animportant conversation and it
hasn't really been talked aboutin maybe in massage therapy
circles or manual therapycircles.
I take it as a great honor tostart this conversation with you
(02:24):
and for you inviting, so I'moffering this tobacco to our
ancestors, past, present andfuture, who will benefit from
the ripple effects and thefruits of this conversation.
And many blessings for thatjourney, for I guess, as we walk
(02:52):
together as inhabitants on thisearth to help with our empathy,
mutual respect, understandingand to get to know each other
and to laugh and to learn fromone another and bond in a
(03:14):
healthy way.
So I offer this tobacco withthe spirit of that and I guess I
should say announce that myspirit name, which was retrieved
by a beautiful man namedCharlie Nelson who has since
(03:35):
passed on, he retrieved myspirit name and my spirit name
is Baute Gunn Bemosed.
So Baute Gunn Bemosed inindigenous cause.
I'm inviting all of ourancestors in to participate in
this conversation and to help uswith our good thoughts and good
intentions and to be able tocome away from this conversation
(03:59):
with fresh eyes and a goodheart.
So I'm offering that tobacco toall of us listening, whether
it's now or whether it'ssometime in the future.
So, miigwech, I'm going to putthis on the earth after our
conversation.
I'll just set it aside for now.
Yeah, thank you, miigwech.
Eric (04:22):
Thank you very much, susan .
I'm lovely to have you here andI'm really honored to have you
on my podcast episode today,just for the listeners.
We connected probably about ayear and a half ago I think it's
my first connected with you andin the last couple months or
recently, you presented your abrief webinar to my membership
(04:43):
community on 10 things RMTs needto know about reconciliation,
and that was I found such apowerful, powerful webinar and
such a powerful message andstory that you told.
That just really triggered acompletely different
(05:05):
understanding of your story andthe importance of reconciliation
, and I thought more people needto hear this stuff, and so I
thought nothing better than toput you on a podcast where your
message is open to the world andso anybody can listen to it.
(05:27):
So I just want to say thanksagain, susan, for being here.
I'm really, really honored andI'm looking forward to this
conversation and I'm lookingforward to hearing more about
what you have to say and theimportance of it, and the one
thing you've said before isabout encouraging change or
expanding our perspectives, andthat's something that if we
(05:49):
don't talk about these things,then we're not going to change
and our perspectives aren'tgoing to be expanded, because we
need to tell stories and weneed to share our own
experiences, to educate and toinspire and to lead.
So thank you again.
Susan (06:08):
Thank you.
And I guess the other part tosharing and telling stories is
to create the conditionsnecessary for proper listening.
So one of the things that Ireally value in my life is deep
conversation.
(06:29):
There's the cursory hello, howare you fine, have a good day?
That sort of thing.
That's quite surfaceconversation and it's necessary
conversation.
And also conversation whereit's like the person is waiting
for an opportunity to tell theirstory but they're not really
(06:50):
listening and not really gettingto the heart of what the person
is saying.
So I think this conversation isabout understanding one another
a little bit more and gettinginto that deeper listening mode.
Eric (07:05):
I love that and I know from the conversations that I've
had with you in the past thatyou are such a great listener
that I find it's you're just soeasy to talk to and I never feel
rushed, because I knowsometimes I can get my brain
going a million miles and I feellike when I talk to you I can
just slow down and work my mindand my being and work at a
(07:30):
normal pace.
So, thank you, you do create agreat environment for listening
and conversation.
Susan (07:38):
That's a high compliment, Eric.
Eric (07:42):
So thank you for that.
Before we get started, though,today, because before we get
into kind of some of the workthat you're doing and a little
bit more of your kind ofprofessional story, and then the
burgeoning educator that I knowthat you are and that the great
educator I know that you'regoing to be, why don't you just
(08:04):
introduce to the audience alittle bit more about you, like,
who are you, where you live?
Tell us a little bit, tell us alittle bit of background about
Susan.
Susan (08:14):
Yeah, okay, I'd be happy to do that.
So at the moment I live inBrandon, manitoba, canada, and
it's right in the middle of theprairies.
I live in a valley and it's fedby the.
We're watered by the AsiniboineRiver, a beautiful, beautiful
(08:35):
river, and I've been here forover 20 years I'm 52 now and I
lived here when I was in my team.
So I did my I guess my junior,high and high school here, and
then I moved to Winnipeg and Iactually started in the Faculty
(08:57):
of Science with the aim of goinginto medicine at that time, and
obviously that didn't go theway I intended and it just
seemed that no, I'm a differentsort of healer.
And so here I am as a massagetherapy, a massage therapist.
So lots of things havetranspired between those times.
(09:20):
But I live on Treaty 2 and I'moriginally from Treaty 1, which
is in Winnipeg, so that's whereI was born and I lived in
Northern Minnetoba from the agesof three until nine, and so
that land and those experienceshave really, really, really
(09:41):
shaped me into really who I am.
I'm going to just tell you somefun anecdotes about my time up
north.
One of the great things aboutmy childhood was we had a lot of
unsupervised place.
So anybody who was born in the70s, maybe the 60s or whatever
(10:03):
we had a lot of unsupervisedplay, and so I would just go out
as soon as my feet hit thefloor in the morning, I was
outside and my mom had to remindme to come in to have a drink
or have a bite to eat orsomething.
Because I was just so absorbedin play and one of the things
the neighborhood kids and I usedto like to do is we'd like to
(10:25):
go and hunt frogs.
Well, we wouldn't kill them, wewould collect frogs and we
thought they were so cute, andso we got pails and we brought
them home and our mother saidyou can't bring them in the
house.
I was like, well, why not?
We want to keep them as pets.
It's like, well, that's notfair to the frog, but what we'll
(10:46):
do is we'll let you keep themin their pails overnight on the
porch and then you have torelease them in the morning.
So we went, yeah, ok, thatmakes sense.
And so we agreed and there wasthis one little girl on our
block and she wasn't very goodat collecting frogs and she was
(11:08):
whining and wanting us to shareour frogs with her.
It's like no, here's your pail,there's your, just go in there
and get it, like we didn't seethe big deal.
So she never got any frogs andshe went home and complained to
her dad and then at nighttimeher dad was caught trying to
steal our frogs and he got intoa great big fight with the
(11:33):
neighborhood moms and all of usheard the fight.
Eric (11:38):
Oh, my goodness.
Susan (11:40):
Anyway, he went home empty-handed.
So no frogs for Shonda, whichis our friend.
So we had beautiful things likethat.
That we did often and it's just.
I guess why I share that storyis there has always been this
tremendous curiosity that I'vecarried with me and that's just
(12:01):
part of a core piece of mypersonality and that's what I
bring to this work.
And to thread that piece inwith what I do now is I guess I
won an educator award or aneducation award.
So I think in Manitoba here wehave a Heather Whitaker of
(12:26):
Memorial Award.
So if you get over 100 creditsthen you get that award.
So in my first few years ofpractice, as soon as I qualified
, I got it.
And that's just because of thatcuriosity, wow.
Eric (12:43):
That's a lovely story.
So your reward was because youhad pursued so much education,
like you'd kept on takingcourses and then doing workshops
and whatnot to keep learning.
I love that and that's such agreat thing to hear because this
is a conversation probably notin the context of what we're
going to have today, but just ingeneral for massage therapy is
(13:05):
that I would love for morepeople to be curious and to
explore things that maybe theydon't know well or things that
maybe make them a little bituncomfortable, Because if you
just keep searching for the sametype of information, you get
stuck in that bias of justlearning the same thing or
(13:26):
variations of the same thing.
I think it's so important forcurious and we want to expand
our knowledge.
We have to explore a whole widevariety of different topics and
ideas.
So I love that you write out ofthe gate, see where, boom right
into being curious and justtrying to learn all the
different things that you could.
(13:47):
That's great.
Susan (13:49):
And what you say about that bias?
Is there a name for that kindof bias?
Isn't it at the Dunning-Krugereffect?
Eric (13:55):
Yeah, dunning-kruger is.
I believe someone's probablygoing to tell me I'm wrong,
because they listen to us when Iget a message, I think it's
basically it's kind of like youdon't know what you don't know,
or you think you know more thanyou do, kind of thing.
Susan (14:09):
Okay, so that's slightly more nuanced than what you're
talking about.
Eric (14:13):
I mean one thing that humans do and I see this all the
time in our professions there'sthat confirmation bias.
We want to search for thingsthat make us feel good, which is
great.
I like to do that too but Ithink that the real learning
occurs is when we search forknowledge that makes us feel a
little bit uncomfortable,because that's how it's going to
expand our minds and our way ofthinking.
(14:34):
This challenge is my bias.
This challenge is what I think.
I know I don't like how thatfeels, but it must mean it's
important.
At least that's how I've had toswitch my thinking over the
years.
Susan (14:46):
Absolutely.
And you know, I think that'sprobably a maturity marker when
you can set aside your own egoand say well, wait a second here
.
Why don't I just listen to whatthe person is trying to tell me
?
And do I have the skills andthe capacity to put my own
thinking aside and just listento what they're trying to tell
(15:08):
me?
Yes, yeah, and that takes a lotof skill and that's a maturity
marker in my view.
Eric (15:18):
Like you and I were probably.
We're on that mature spectrum,I think, of life.
Now we're not 20 anymore, so Ithink, as time goes on, time is
a learner or time is a teacher.
I guess you should say, timeteaches us too, yeah.
Susan (15:35):
And we never stop developing.
I guess one of the gifts I canoffer this profession is our
Anishinaabe and indigenouspeople.
We really value elders, andwhen I say elders I don't mean
(15:56):
elderly, but I'm people who havebeen able to survive many
things.
They know a lot of things aboutlife, and so those people are
revered in our culture.
So whenever I go to indigenousled anything and then I come
(16:17):
back from that into mainstreamsociety, it's always jarring.
For that reason it's like oh,we're such a youth worshiping
culture.
Mainstream culture is.
And I'm the oldest therapist inour clinic.
So the clinic I work out ofthere's 11 therapists and, as I
say, I just turned 52.
(16:38):
And I'm working alongside many20 year olds and some are a
little bit older than that, butI notice the attitudes even
amongst the clients.
I see the interactions are alot different.
Eric (16:57):
That's such an interesting thing.
I never really thought aboutthat before.
How do you find that the othertherapists that you work with do
they, like you, get on wellwith them?
Is there a mutual respect or isit just kind of you guys share
workspace?
I?
Susan (17:11):
think we get on quite well.
Yeah, yeah, but there'sdefinitely some generation gaps.
Things that I find historicallyfunny are kind of blasé.
I think I'm in the category ofdad jokes.
Oh, I love it.
Eric (17:35):
I'm a dad, so I got a hold of it.
Susan (17:39):
It's a great clinic environment and we do get on
well.
But I do notice a few littleinteresting things and I also
wonder how do clients choosetheir therapist when they're in
a clinic and there's a varietyof choices?
So I always find thatinteresting and sometimes I
(18:00):
wonder.
It's like, well, if they see me, they see my picture or
whatever, and then notice thatI'm an older therapist or
whatever, how that's perceived.
Is that perceived as oh, Idon't want an old one because
they may not give as muchpressure as I want?
Or it might be the opposite oh,this person might have been
(18:21):
around for a long time, I wantsomebody more experienced.
So the bias is I'm only fiveyears into RMT practice.
It's just very interesting tome.
It's a question I wonder.
Eric (18:33):
Yeah, I've always wondered that too.
You bring up a good point theretoo.
But there is this youth bias onprofession.
But I think a lot.
I think I would love to seewhat the actual numbers are.
I wouldn't be surprised if themajority of the people in our
profession are probably in thatlate 20s to maybe 40-ish age
(18:55):
range.
It's probably most people.
So it's probably ayouth-dominated profession.
Because you don't tend to seeat least in my experience, you
don't tend to see a lot oftherapists when they're 50s or
60s.
It tends to be lower numbers.
Susan (19:13):
On the other hand, whenever I go to an association
event, I'm always delighted tosee older practicing therapists
and it gives me a lot ofencouragement and a lot of hope.
It's like, yeah, because I wantto be doing this for a very
long time to come.
Eric (19:32):
Of course.
Of course you go through allthat time and energy and money
to go to school.
Why only lasts 10 years?
That's one thing that you hearoften all the time.
Well, an average massagetherapist only works for 10
years, and I think.
Well, is that true?
I don't know.
I know a lot of therapists.
I'm doing my 16th year ofpractice and most people I went
(19:53):
to school with are stillpracticing.
Like you said, when you go tothese events, whether it's an
association event or aconference of some kind, I
usually see more older orexperienced therapists there
than younger ones.
I almost wonder if that's justas we get older.
Maybe we want to become moreinvolved with the profession, or
(20:14):
we want to maybe leave sometype of mark on the profession
as we're on our way out or aswe're on our way to retire.
Maybe people I feel that peoplemaybe want to get more involved
.
Now, that's just a totallybiased observation, but that's
what I see.
Susan (20:32):
That might be a very interesting line of question for
associations to determine frommembership.
Eric (20:40):
Yeah, yeah, I'll send a message to MPAM and ask them see
what they say at yourprofession or your association
in the map.
So I wanted to talk to youtoday, susan, about your journey
into being an educator and justmaybe just tell us a little bit
about your motivation for that.
Susan (21:00):
Okay, that's a cool question, all right.
So there's a poet by the nameof Robert Croach and he wrote
this collection of poems calledthe Seed Catalog, and in one of
those poems there's this oneline how do you grow a poet and
(21:27):
I think of massage therapy thatway how do you grow a therapist?
I find that question really,really interesting because you
know, you don't just go to aperson, doesn't just go to
school and get qualified andthen start practicing, like
(21:48):
there's antecedents to thatwhole process.
So I like to say that I startedmassage therapy.
It has really long roots I'mgoing to get into it now here.
(22:09):
So in my as an intergenerationalsurvivor of residential schools
, and intergenerational survivormeans that my parents went
through the residential schoolsystem and they survived school
and then I was born and Isurvived them and yeah, yeah.
(22:35):
And so part of one aspect ofbeing an intergenerational
survivor is the lack of touch,and I'm the kind of person who
really enjoys touch and I enjoythe process of coming into
somebody's space with theirpermission.
(22:55):
I enjoy inviting people into myspace for a hug or just an
interpersonal exchange, a touchon the elbow, that kind of thing
.
So there is a part of me thatjust really really craves touch
and needs touch on a regularbasis, and that was something
(23:17):
that I was denied as anintergenerational survivor and
that has roots, I would say, inthe kind of touch that my
parents received in school.
So there was no touchingallowed and whatever touch there
was, it was usually punishmentstrapping.
(23:38):
There is usually neglect, likekids would often get locked up
and confined for a varietyamount of time.
So there's this disconnect withtouch and we all need that
(23:58):
nurturing touch.
I remember being really blownaway by hearing one of our
massage teachers talk about howour skin is our first brain
tissue right, it evolved out ofbrain tissue and my mind was
totally blown when I heard that.
(24:19):
And then he gave me a littlenudge and said well, if you want
to learn more about that, youshould learn about etymology.
So I read up a little bit aboutthat and I thought that makes
perfect sense why I would cravetouch and why I've got this
curious nature too, becausethose two things go hand in hand
(24:43):
.
It's all about the nervoussystem and the intellect and, I
guess, the emotional bonding.
So in surviving and beingsurvivors, that bonding, the
mechanisms of bonding withanother human being, was really,
really, really disrupted and Ialways wanted just to feel
(25:07):
better.
And I remember I know I'mjumping timelines and stuff, I
hope everyone can keep up herebut I remember when I was in
theater school and I was in my20s and I had my first taste of
(25:27):
relaxation in an Alexandertechnique class and we also did
some Feldenkrais, so workingwith the jaw, and I was so
relaxed.
That was the first time I hadfelt relaxation in a very long
time I've got, I'd say probably10 or more years, if I ever felt
(25:51):
relaxation.
And I remember going home and Icried for three days and then
when that was finished, I sat upand I looked around and went.
What just happened?
What's that all about?
Why did I have that kind ofresponse?
And I never got an answer tothat question until I started
(26:15):
massage school and learningabout the nervous system, doing
my own reading about attachment,bonds and touch and
understanding not just themechanisms but just the profound
connection that can happen.
And then another thing thatprompted me on this journey was
(26:37):
another deep, somatic responsein a yoga class and our teacher
very, very skilled teacher.
He led us in a loving, kindnessmeditation, but we did it with
holding a yoga pose.
So, for instance, we would holddownward facing dog for maybe a
(27:00):
minute or two, and all the timewe were we were to repeat in
our minds may I be happy thatone dropping that one thought in
, and then we'd go into anotherpose that we could hold for
about that length of timecomfortably, and then we would
go on to another section of theloving kindness.
(27:24):
And so we were after about anhour and a half of dropping
loving kindness messages into mybody like an IV drip, drip,
drip.
By the time it came to Shavasanathere was a volcano.
My body cried and heaved andstopped.
(27:46):
There was no controlling it and, thank goodness, my teacher was
trauma informed and he just satby my head and he held my head
very, very gently a craniocacralgentle and let it pass through
me.
He didn't try to stop it, hedidn't try to comfort me, he was
(28:08):
just there in it, the gentlestway.
And then, when it was startingto come down and I started to
stabilize, he waited till I wasstable enough and then he very
gently took his hands away andthen carried on, closing up the
practice.
And then and then he justcarried on as if nothing unusual
(28:31):
had occurred, and so he wasteaching that whole class how to
respond to a somatic responseby just being himself, but in a
very skilled way, and not to beafraid of it.
Eric (28:50):
Wow, that's just holding that safe space for you just to
experience what you'reexperiencing, without judgment,
without anything, just beingthere for you sounds super
powerful and really somethingthat influenced your life in a
huge way.
Susan (29:11):
And in an unflinching manner.
You know, I don't know ifyou've ever experienced somebody
being confronted withsomebody's pain or somebody else
being confronted with your painand they flinch and so that
makes you think, oh no, there'ssomething wrong with me.
So all of your pain sciencebackground would have thoughts
(29:38):
to say on that topic.
So very important in thosekinds of scenarios to be strong
enough to not flinch.
Yeah.
Eric (29:51):
Yeah, that's one thing we talk about.
You know this isn't about me,but yeah, just you bring that up
.
There's one thing that it'sreally important to talk about
in a lot of the courses that Ido, and I think it's important
for anybody listening that ifyou are in somebody that's
experiencing that is really likeyou said.
I love that.
I love the word usesunflinching.
It's just, it's really justsitting in that empathy with the
(30:12):
person and just withoutjudgment, without flinching,
without reacting, and just beingthere is making the person
really feel safe, like it's okayand it's this is this needs to
happen, and this is just part ofthe process, of what you're
going through right now.
You know, sometimes it feelslike you're not doing anything,
and this is the thing.
I think what happens with a lotof therapists is they, they feel
(30:33):
like they need to say something, you feel like they need to
jump in, they need to dosomething, but sometimes just
just do nothing, just just kindof.
By doing nothing I'm puttingthat in air quotes.
You know this is going to beaudio only, so be willing to see
us with this is that doingnothing is actually you're doing
a lot, and it's extreme can beextremely powerful for the
(30:55):
person.
So your story is, I think, isreally important to share.
Susan (31:03):
I think I should also add to that that the it's not about
pushing down or suppressingyour own like, say, somebody has
a somatic experience on yourtable.
So, for instance, for ourlisteners listening in, maybe
maybe they're reflecting andthinking about their own
clinical practice that it's notso much about not doing anything
(31:27):
but you have to be strongenough to hold that.
Yeah, you know.
And it's not about suppressing,it's about still being, still
feeling connected to your center.
Right, the moment you step outof your center and go into fear
is where things can get a littlebit shaky, where you're not
(31:48):
holding the space well enoughfor that somatic response to
complete.
Eric (31:55):
Yeah, Thanks for that clarification.
Yeah, I was kind of being a bitflippant with the doing nothing
, just meaning like.
But yeah, you're you're, you'rebeing present and you're being
strong, but it's sometimes itcan feel like you're not doing
much to the outside observer andlook like you're not really
doing much.
Susan (32:14):
Yeah.
So let's just remember thispart of the conversation,
because that I'd like to talk alittle bit about holding space,
but I'm going to save that forlater, so, just if I forget,
remind me that that that wholeexperience again, that made me
(32:35):
go, what just happened here, andso that was another part of the
curiosity that led me on toeventually becoming an RMT many,
many years later.
The answers didn't come justlike that, they had to sit.
(32:56):
I had to go through a lot oflife experiences, make decisions
, feel the consequences of thosedecisions good or bad or
neutral and then and then youknow, and so those things guided
me forward, and I'll shareanother story that led me to
(33:16):
this path.
Well, I guess there's two morethings, but one thing was when I
was in theater training, I wasalways told you're not in the
moment, and that, anddissociation is something that
happens to trauma survivors, andI didn't realize that I was so
(33:37):
dissociated, and so it come outin my creative work and I did
not know what they meant bybeing present.
And so I'd ask well, what doyou mean?
I'm not in the moment?
Well, it means you're notpresent.
Well, what does that mean?
And and so the on and on thequestion went and the more my
(33:59):
teachers who were trying to behelpful, the more they talked,
the less I understood.
Eric (34:06):
Isn't that?
Susan (34:06):
funny, yeah, and maybe they themselves didn't have a
handle on what that meant.
You know so what?
I started the journey on withmy yoga teacher and the yoga
studio that helped me on my waythere.
When I first felt my feet like,really felt my feet on the
(34:31):
ground and really felt my owngait cycle, I'm like that's what
my feet feel like, that's whatmy legs feel like, that's what
my hips, and, oh my God, I wasoverjoyed.
It felt so good to be embodied,because I had been disembodied
(34:51):
for so long and I had never beentaught any of this.
And so I became a verydedicated student in yoga and
eventually became a teacher andtaught classes for a few years
here in Brandon.
(35:12):
But my curiosity carried on.
I got into Thai massage.
I went out east to Montreal andToronto area.
I followed my teacher, and HartHart Laser is his name, he
co-owns United Yoga Montreal andI took a few courses and
(35:33):
seminars with him there andcontinued the journey a little
bit more.
And then I got into the Thaimassage, which was very
interesting.
And then I started noticingthat when I was practicing Thai
massage, that there were certainmovements that the ordinary
desk jockey couldn't do, and Iwondered well, why isn't that
(35:57):
shoulder moving, why doesn't ithave full range of motion?
And so should I just yank on itmore?
Should I?
Just I didn't know.
It's like sometimes that didn'thave such good results, and so
then I thought, well, Idefinitely need to know more.
(36:17):
And then that's when I saved upmy money and decided it was
time to go back to school tobecome an RMT, and then I got
some answers from that education, which I'm very grateful for.
Eric (36:32):
That's fantastic.
I love the story, I love yourjourney and I love the varied
background that you have andremember you told me before
about your journey to theatreand I think that's a neat place
to come from and it sounds likeI taught you a bunch of great
lessons about yourself but alsoabout kind of triggering you
(36:55):
into the world that you live nowas a massage therapist.
Susan (37:02):
I guess I should say that , coming back to the
intergenerational trauma pieceis that's.
The other thing that wasstripped away and quite heavily
shamed was identity, and so itwas.
No.
It's a no brainer now when Ilook and reflect back on my life
(37:25):
and the choices that I made.
Why theatre, you know, and thetheatre is all about playing
with your identity.
You can become a differentperson.
You can play with your imageand shape yourself.
You can be a shape shifter, soI became a very good shape
(37:45):
shifter in my theatre years.
What ultimately happened, though, was because I didn't have my
core identity as an AnishinaabeKwee, as an Indigenous woman.
(38:05):
That made me not want to beIndigenous at all, so it made
perfect sense for me to findways around that, but that
eventually did catch up with me,and because I didn't have that
core, there was only so far thatI could go.
I couldn't run forever, and so Imade that painful journey of
(38:32):
coming out of shame, out of theIndigenous, of my Indigenous
identity, and a large part ofthat came from reading the Truth
and Reconciliation reports andgoing to the first event in
Winnipeg and understanding andowning really really owning that
(38:54):
story and understanding myselfas a survivor, understanding my
parents as survivors,understanding my grandparents as
survivors.
And then, when I sat andreckoned with that whole family
story and the agenda and thereasons behind it, the agenda,
(39:18):
that was both very painful butyet it was extremely liberating.
It's like aha, that's why.
That's why, and so, all of asudden, things just started
falling into place and then Ibegan to see like a tapestry or
a mosaic.
It's like that magic eye.
(39:38):
You remember those magic eyethings.
You look at it and you have torelax your gaze and then you see
the image.
It was like that.
Eric (39:47):
Wow.
So your journey.
This is interesting.
This is something that you canexpand on more if you'd like to.
I'm interested in that.
Hopefully the Lawrence would betoo.
You mentioned both shame andabout how you didn't want to be
an Indigenous woman, and so youfound other avenues or outlets
(40:10):
to express who you thought youshould be, or who you didn't
want to be who you were.
How was that transition is thatthe right word to go from being
somebody who you didn't want tobe an Indigenous woman to all
(40:31):
of a sudden identifying and thenkind of bringing that back and
now being somebody who's areally big advocate for
reconciliation and forIndigenous identity?
Can you tell a bit more aboutthat story?
Susan (40:45):
That's a very difficult question to.
I don't know if there's ananswer.
I don't really know if there'san answer, but all I know is
that it was liberating to read,as painful as it was.
I think it was a lot of undoingsome of the cultural narratives
(41:05):
that are out there in society,which is a barrier to the
outside.
I guess the mainstream culturewants to keep those shame pieces
in place.
You're no good as a human being, you're drunk, you have a
(41:29):
tendency to have diabetes andyou're prone to disease.
You're prone to this.
You're prone to that.
I have all negative messageswhich I'm surrounded by to this
day.
I still have to.
I encounter that in theclinical encounters and I have
(41:50):
to remain professional and getmy ego out of it and go and
listen.
What is this person reallysaying?
How do I manage that?
I guess I'm not reallyanswering your question, eric,
because I don't know if there isan answer.
Maybe there's a different wayto asking that question or maybe
(42:11):
it's not the right questionright now.
I don't know.
Eric (42:15):
Yeah, it was just a thought just because of just
listening to your story a coupleof times here.
This is the second time I'veheard part of your story.
I was just curious about thejourney of what you've been
through to where you were youare today.
(42:36):
I don't know if there's a goodquestion.
I don't know if that is reallya question or if it's just an
open-ended statement.
Susan (42:47):
Yeah, Okay, okay.
Sometimes I have to sit with aquestion and hear it again and
then something comes up.
This is one of those instances.
So, definitely, reading the TRCreports, talking to my mom,
spending time with her,forgiving her and coming to
(43:14):
unconditional love with herthose have all been things that
have helped To notice that shecarries a lot of shame To go.
Oh, I see, I see, because Iclear up my own shame, maybe I'm
helping her clear up hers, Idon't know.
(43:35):
So, when all of those readingof the reports happened, it was
such a powerful time.
And then I also realized, youknow, I haven't really looked at
my.
I don't know my language.
I don't know the Anishinaabelanguage.
(43:55):
I don't know the ceremonies.
That's something that I reallylonged for.
I didn't know where they werehappening.
One day I saw a post onFacebook and Marie Sinclair had
posted or reshared whereceremonies were happening and it
said everyone welcome.
And I went.
I'm everyone and that's myheritage, so I should go.
(44:19):
So I went.
That was last year and I hadanother one of those somatic
reactions.
I was listening to AnishinaabeMoin, the Anishinaabe language,
and I didn't understand, but Icould feel the language in my
body and again I had anothersomatic response and that whole
(44:44):
time I was at ceremony I washaving those somatic responses
and that was really powerful.
And so I thought, okay, thismust be that melting of that
shame coming off.
And then I started thinking Iwonder how many Indigenous
(45:05):
massage therapists there are.
I wonder how many Indigenousclients there are, who of us are
seeking treatment.
And so I became interested inthat question and also in the
association.
There were some people who werecoming, who were approaching to
(45:28):
me, approached me and asked meabout Indigenous this,
indigenous that and that kind ofgot my mind thinking about some
of these questions.
And so it went from there andthen I started reading the calls
(45:49):
to action and with massagetherapists in mind, and that's
how I started putting thingstogether and thinking, ah, you
know, this would be great formassage therapists to know about
whether they're Indigenous ornot.
And then I took Pam Fitch'strauma-informed care course.
(46:14):
And at that point I didn't knowPam personally, I knew her by
reputation.
So I took her course.
I think it was six weeks, sixSaturdays in a row and after we
were finished the course then Ireached out to her and she
(46:35):
responded and we set up a timeto meet and we chatted and I
reached out to her because Ifelt and she always gives this
impression that she will bethere for you unconditionally.
She has an unconditionalpositive regard for anybody she
(46:55):
talks to and she, just by hertalking, just her presence, she
gives off that vibe and I knewthat she was a safe person to
talk to and that she'd have asense of openness and curiosity
as well about what I wasthinking about, even though I
(47:18):
wasn't really sure about what Iwas thinking.
But I just had a spark of anidea, and so her and I came up
with, through many conversations, many hours of hashing out
content and putting together the10 things RMTs should know
(47:38):
about reconciliation.
And so we developed a webinartogether on that topic, which
we've shared twice now to thisdate.
We shared a webinar for MTAAM,for the Massage Therapy
Association of Manitoba, and forRMTAO in Ontario.
Eric (47:58):
Yeah, and I've seen the one that you did without PAM and
I'm assuming they're both verysimilar.
One of them is you guystogether or are they separate?
And so when you presented to mycommunity, that was the 10
(48:19):
things RMTs need to know aboutreconciliation.
Is that the exact samepresentation that you do with
PAM or is they slightlydifferent?
Susan (48:25):
There's slight variations when PAM is presenting.
She goes more intotrauma-informed care and
considerations for that, and shealso gives valuable content and
insights into her settleridentity.
Okay.
Eric (48:47):
Which is very interesting.
Yeah.
Susan (48:51):
You were going to ask a question.
No, I was just going to say no,go ahead.
Eric (48:54):
I was just going to ask you how, with the kind of
feedback and how things havebeen received during your
presentations.
But you can maybe answer thatafter you tell us a little bit
about PAM and her settleridentity.
Susan (49:09):
That's interesting to me.
Yeah, I wanted to do it likethat, because having a settler
person and an Indigenous personpresent together is actually
even more powerful, because thenthere's a dialogue happening,
for one thing, and we both comefrom very different identities.
(49:35):
And how do those identitiescome together and talk about the
same thing?
We'll have a differentperspective depending.
So PAM brings her settleridentity and she's modeling
allyship.
So allyship is where you becomean ally and you stand alongside
(50:00):
and support a more marginalizedvoice.
So she does an exquisite job atthat.
So she relates to herself as asettler.
In the presentation she talksabout her own relationship to
(50:23):
her land or the land that sheresides on, and people listen to
her a little bit differentlythan they listen to me If I do
the presentation on my own.
Sometimes I worry about whetherI just sound like an angry
(50:44):
Indigenous person or a woundedperson.
And because PAM comes withwhiteness comes privilege.
So there's this white privilegeaspect.
So we tend there's a bias onlistening to people who are
(51:04):
white, because whites have moreauthority and more social power
than a marginalized voice does,and so people will listen to a
white voice a lot easier than anon-white voice.
And not only that, but PAM alsohas like 30 plus years of
(51:26):
practice under her belt.
She's an authority in her ownright and she's earned that.
But we also do need toacknowledge that there is some
unearned privilege there and shedemonstrates.
You know, she acknowledges thatand that way she's a very good
role model and showing otherpeople how to demonstrate
(51:46):
allyship.
Eric (51:47):
And that's something that when I heard you talk before,
that you know, something youjust never really you never
really think of is.
You know?
I should say, a lot of us don'tthink of.
It is that kind of that settlerprivilege and you know, when
(52:09):
you mentioned that before I justreally made he's kind of really
hits you like, hits you deep inyour soul.
You realize that, yeah, likethe privileges that we have and
the lifestyle that we have andhow it came to be.
We need to acknowledge that andunderstand that, because it does
set us up for that privilegefor sure, and that, you know, I
(52:35):
don't think many of us spendmuch time thinking about that.
We just go on about our livesand don't realize.
Susan (52:44):
Yeah.
So if I were, if I didn't knowyou and I came to you seeking
care, I would be watching youvery, very carefully.
What you say, what you don'tsay, how you say it.
Are you dismissive, are youaccepting?
(53:09):
What kinds of words do you use?
Like there's a lot of watchingto make sure is like okay, am I
going to be okay with thisperson you might agree with to
have a treatment with you, buteven during the treatment I'll
(53:30):
still be, I'll still be kind ofwatching.
Eric (53:35):
Yeah, and that's something we probably we never think
about, is it?
I mean?
That's why these conversationsare so important.
So thanks for sharing that,that's I mean.
The more I listen to you andthe more I try to learn about
these really powerful, importanttopics, it's every time I
(53:55):
listen to you speak it's I getsomething.
I get something more for me toreflect on and to think about.
Susan (54:04):
And, yeah, this sounds like a good time to talk a
little bit about cultural safety, yeah please.
Indigenous cultural safety, Alsoa topic that I came across, a
term that I came across in myreading.
So I read this book which is achapter of it's a chapters of
(54:30):
essays on, and it's called whitebenevolence and that's how even
like white people, like inprofessionals, can come across
as like benevolence can be aform of violence.
And that's where it's like.
(54:54):
It's like white whiteness knowsbetter and you know and can
think better, make betterdecisions, and so like social
workers and any kind of caringprofession can fall into that,
into being caring, but it has a.
It has a bit of a weird vibe toit, but culturally safe
(55:21):
practice.
I'm going to now refer to mynotes here because I want to
make sure I get this right, sobear with me.
Here there is a piece by adissertation by Dr Laurie
Harding, and she wrote adissertation called what's the
(55:43):
Harm and it's all about howIndigenous people have been
harmed in the healthcare systemand how to, how to fix it, how
to address it.
And so the cultural safety wasfirst articulated by a Maori
(56:05):
nurse and her work was publishedfor the Ministry of Education
for New Zealand in 1990.
So I'm just going to go overwhat she says about this and
she's coming from a nursingperspective, but we can
certainly draw from that astherapists.
(56:26):
Here's what she says.
She says the effective nursingpractice of a person or family
from another culture and isdetermined by that person or
family.
Culture includes, but is notrestricted to, age or generation
, gender, sexual orientation,occupation and socioeconomic
status, ethnic origin or migrantexperience, religious or
(56:50):
spiritual belief and disability.
The nurse delivering thenursing service will have
undertaken a process ofreflection on his or her own
cultural identity and willrecognize the impact that his or
her personal culture has on hisor her professional practice.
Unsafe cultural practicecomprises any action which
(57:13):
diminishes, demeans ordisempowers the cultural
identity and well-being of anindividual.
So, in short, she's saying thatthe cultural safety is a
practitioner who reflects ontheir own cultural identity and
(57:36):
understands that that's going toimpact the person who they're
providing care for.
Eric (57:46):
That's really well said and I know from our conversation
that we had previously.
I just speak of Maori theBernie, who is part of our
membership group too.
She reached out and I think Ishared that message with you
about her experience being aMaori woman and therapist in New
(58:07):
Zealand and it was sointeresting to hear and I've
talked to her quite a bit overthe years back and forth, but
that was the first time shereally shared her experiences
being an Indigenous woman downNew Zealand and realizing that
the Indigenous culture is allover the world, how they've been
impacted.
And then cultural safety is theone thing that seems to
(58:30):
resonate or seems to beconsistent across the world.
So let's talk about I mean justbecause I feel, like we could
probably do an entire.
We could probably talk for 10hours, susan, which is great,
(58:51):
but let's just there needs to bea part too.
We might not need to do a parttoo.
We might, yeah, because I'mjust looking at how long we've
been going here for which isgreat and it just feels like we
barely even brushed the surfaceof the topic.
So maybe we will do a part tooagain, but I guess the one thing
I really wanted because Ireally wanted to kind of promote
your message and what you'redoing and I really want people
(59:12):
to understand the importance ofthe work you're doing.
But maybe if you could justtell the listeners a little bit
more about, kind of like, someof the main takeaways of your,
of the content that you'reteaching, and what do you hope
people are going to walk awayfrom if they listen to you teach
or they take a course of yoursor listen to you speak at a
(59:36):
conference.
What are the things that youwant them to know?
Susan (59:43):
Well, I think, reconciliation and the TRC
reports.
I really want people to readthe reports, and just as
citizens of this country, butalso as their development as a
human being.
So I'll go back to that pointthat I made earlier about how do
you grow a therapist?
(01:00:03):
Yeah, please.
That inspired by Robert Croachand this is part of how you grow
yourself as a therapist and howyou grow yourself as a human
being.
I want to really relay themessage that you can be felt
(01:00:24):
through your touch.
Like that might sound likestating the obvious, and I find
many profound things are aboutstating the obvious, but and
it's not just about safe touch,but it's also about like this
person gets me Right.
(01:00:44):
So if you're providing massagetherapy for a, say, an
indigenous person, they're goingto feel like.
If I'm receiving care fromanother therapist who is not
indigenous, I can feel throughtheir touch if they get me or
not, and I think that's a very,very, very human thing is we all
(01:01:08):
want to be understood 100%agree.
Yeah, I think that's justfundamental, in my view at least
.
So I want people to be able toexpand on their touch repertoire
(01:01:29):
of you know, do I understandthis person?
Do I understand this personenough to be in a place where I
can give them unconditional,positive regard, like Pam does,
even just with her presence overZoom Right?
Yeah, if you can do that forthe person on your table you
(01:01:52):
know, no matter where they comefrom or what their your own
cultural identity or thatperson's cultural identity, is
there some way that we can justtap into our own humanity, human
to human right?
Eric (01:02:08):
Like I've already said, everybody wants to feel
understood and how you want.
People can feel that, whetherthe therapist gets you or not
and that's something we've allexperienced, I think, as
therapists, giving massage aswell as receiving them.
And there is, you know, if wewant to bring the science to it
(01:02:30):
too, there's lots of evidencethat suggests that people can
yeah, they can read or what thatperson is intending with their
touch and what they're feelingand what they're thinking.
And our touch is so powerfuland so often we try to, I think
(01:02:53):
in our profession we try to turnthe massage aspect of the hands
on into some kind of justspecific, mechanistic
explanation about like this iswhat we're doing to joints and
to tissues and stuff, whereas Ithink that we really need to
have a lot more of that kind oflike somatic, kind of perceptual
(01:03:13):
, you know, emotional context,effective context of our touch,
and realize how powerful that is.
And that's probably morepowerful than the mechanistic
kind of stuff that often getsportrayed as being the most
important in our profession, andI don't know if I agree with
(01:03:35):
that.
Susan (01:03:37):
I mean it's important, absolutely, there's no question
it's important, but this is thenext level of competence, right,
yeah, yeah.
Eric (01:03:52):
It's true they're all important.
But yeah, you're right, there'slike level one and there's the
next level.
I like how you said that.
It's great.
Susan (01:03:59):
Yeah, and you can become more of yourself too, which
feels really great to say.
You know, and I always knowwhen something is being spoken
that feels right.
I can feel it through my wholebody that you become more of
yourself.
Eric (01:04:18):
Yeah.
Susan (01:04:19):
I never have those clients where it's like, yeah,
this person is my muse.
This is where, working withthis person, it brings out the
best in me.
Eric (01:04:33):
Oh, for sure.
Susan (01:04:35):
And I think, yeah, I want to treat those people all day
long, just connect with usreally well yeah.
And even if I can't connect withsomebody, then I will look for
ways to connect that areappropriate.
(01:04:56):
And some people they're a bitmore boundary than others and
maybe they don't want you inthat deep, but some people it's
just really effortless.
There's a flow to it, right.
And so with this work, withreconciliation work in massage
therapy, yeah, I just wantpeople to take away that next
(01:05:20):
bit of development as a humanbeing.
I wonder if there's anythingmore that needs to be said on
that.
Eric (01:05:31):
I think you put that into a very succinct explanation,
susan.
I guess the one thing I wantedto ask you, and just if anyone
listens do you have any futurespeaking gigs lined up or any
courses that you're going to beteaching in the future?
Susan (01:05:52):
That is something that I'm just looking at my notes
here just to see if there'sanything else I wanted to go
over here.
But no, I think I've said whatI needed to say on that last
question.
But okay, with speaking andwith courses, pam and I will
probably be working againtogether to as word spreads on
(01:06:15):
this topic and as we continue torefine the content and the work
, because, quite honestly, whenwe started looking at like it's
such a big, big, big topic,right.
So when we first started work,it's like well, what do we talk
about?
We were both kind of doing thiswith each other.
What do we say?
(01:06:35):
I don't know.
What do you say?
I don't know.
But Pam and I are looking to dosome more of these
presentations and we'd certainlylike to be invited if anybody
listening is curious and wantsto know more.
(01:06:56):
I'd like to develop a course onthis topic because there's many
, many facets.
Like we said, we need a parttwo to this conversation because
we haven't even gotten to a lotof things that we might have
wanted to talk about.
So that's what's in the futurefor that.
(01:07:18):
I'm also doing another podcastwith elder Jerry Ollman.
He has a beautiful podcast thatI'd really love people to
listen to and it's calledTeachings in the Air.
So it's so cute because likeunpowerful, unpoignant and all
that, because like all you haveto do is look around and there's
(01:07:41):
teachings everywhere,everywhere you look.
Isn't that such a beautifulthing to think about?
Jerry is an elder and he is apodcaster and he is a
residential school survivor andhe talks about healing body,
(01:08:01):
mind, spirit, what keeps ourbodies, what keeps our spirits
fed, those kinds of things.
So he always likes hislisteners to take responsibility
for their own health and toencourage that.
He's very restful to listen toas well.
He's quite enjoyable, and so Iget the privilege of talking to
(01:08:23):
him later in the week.
So that's what's next for me atthis time, but it's going to be
a growth process for sure.
One last thing I wanted to touchon before we start to close is
I did mention earlier in ourconversation about holding space
(01:08:44):
and one of my friends, heatherPlatt.
She wrote a book called the Artof Holding Space and I was a
facilitator for a couple ofyears for her program.
There's a coaching program onhow to hold space and this is
what she has to say about whatholding space is.
(01:09:06):
It's what we do when we walkalongside a person or a group on
a journey through liminal space.
Liminal space is like anin-between space, like moving
house, say.
That would be a liminal space.
You don't quite live here, butyou don't quite live there.
(01:09:27):
We do this without making themfeel inadequate, without trying
to fix them and without tryingto impact the outcome.
We open our hearts and offerunconditional support and let go
of judgment and control.
So that's what Heather has tosay about what holding space is
(01:09:50):
in short.
Eric (01:09:53):
I love that.
That's great.
I've never heard of it beingdefined that way, so I like that
a lot.
Susan (01:10:00):
And that just adds to what you were mentioning about
doing nothing.
Eric (01:10:04):
Yeah, doing nothing but actually doing a lot, yeah,
that's great, that's great.
Well, thanks, susan, for beinghere today.
I really appreciate your timeand I feel very privileged to
have you as a guest and to havegot to know you over the last
year a little bit better.
Did you have any final wordsyou wanted to say before we sign
(01:10:27):
off?
Susan (01:10:30):
No, just thank you so much, eric, and thank you to all
of your listeners for listeningand engaging in this topic and
this conversation.
And, yeah, I look forward tomore conversations and talking
about practice and that.
So that's all I have to say fornow.
(01:10:51):
Make much.
Eric (01:10:53):
Thank you, susan, and I appreciate that.
And yeah, let's see if we canget a part two, because when I
look at my notes or things Iwant to talk to you about, we've
only basically got throughabout half of them.
So we'll look to do that in thefuture.
So thank you very much.
Susan (01:11:07):
Bye, bye, eric Thank you.
Eric (01:11:10):
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If you'd like to connect withme, I can be reached to my
website, ericperviscom, or sendme a DM through either Facebook
(01:11:32):
or Instagram at ericpervisrmt.
Hello and welcome to the Purves vs Podcast.
My name is Eric Purves.
I am an RMT course creator,continuing education provider
and advocate for evidence basedmassage therapy.
Thank you for being here today.
This is one of the mostimpactful and most powerful
conversations I have everexperienced.
In this episode, I welcomeSusan DuPuis, who is an RMT and
brand in Manitoba.
(00:32):
Susan has been doing workeducating RMTs about cultural
safety with a fantasticpresentation called 10 Things
for RMTs to Learn aboutReconciliation.
Susan brings up many importanttopics that we need to discuss
more openly in our society.
So please listen to thisepisode in its entirety and take
the time for some selfreflection afterwards.
Susan (00:53):
Eric, thank you so much for inviting me onto your
podcast and inviting me to sharewith your listeners, I guess,
some of the things that I'mdoing as an RMT and I guess as a
blossoming educator or someonewho's taking their first steps
in that direction, in this field.
Anyway, to begin ourconversation, they always say,
(01:20):
like are they meaningtraditional teachers in
Anishinaabe culture?
And it seems to be consistentamong many indigenous cultures
in North America, as far as Iknow, which is to it's tobacco
first.
So you always start withtobacco and the reason why
(01:40):
tobacco first is it's a tobaccooffering.
Okay, and the tobacco offeringis basically to for us to have a
really good conversation.
This conversation has the powerto possibly change minds, change
(02:00):
direct trajectories, even liketo go within a little bit more
and consider.
So, because it is such animportant conversation and it
hasn't really been talked aboutin maybe in massage therapy
circles or manual therapycircles.
I take it as a great honor tostart this conversation with you
(02:24):
and for you inviting, so I'moffering this tobacco to our
ancestors, past, present andfuture, who will benefit from
the ripple effects and thefruits of this conversation.
And many blessings for thatjourney, for I guess, as we walk
(02:52):
together as inhabitants on thisearth to help with our empathy,
mutual respect, understandingand to get to know each other
and to laugh and to learn fromone another and bond in a
(03:14):
healthy way.
So I offer this tobacco withthe spirit of that and I guess I
should say announce that myspirit name, which was retrieved
by a beautiful man namedCharlie Nelson who has since
(03:35):
passed on, he retrieved myspirit name and my spirit name
is Baute Gunn Bemosed.
So Baute Gunn Bemosed inindigenous cause.
I'm inviting all of ourancestors in to participate in
this conversation and to help uswith our good thoughts and good
intentions and to be able tocome away from this conversation
(03:59):
with fresh eyes and a goodheart.
So I'm offering that tobacco toall of us listening, whether
it's now or whether it'ssometime in the future.
So, miigwech, I'm going to putthis on the earth after our
conversation.
I'll just set it aside for now.
Yeah, thank you, miigwech.
Eric (04:22):
Thank you very much, susan .
I'm lovely to have you here andI'm really honored to have you
on my podcast episode today,just for the listeners.
We connected probably about ayear and a half ago I think it's
my first connected with you andin the last couple months or
recently, you presented your abrief webinar to my membership
(04:43):
community on 10 things RMTs needto know about reconciliation,
and that was I found such apowerful, powerful webinar and
such a powerful message andstory that you told.
That just really triggered acompletely different
(05:05):
understanding of your story andthe importance of reconciliation
, and I thought more people needto hear this stuff, and so I
thought nothing better than toput you on a podcast where your
message is open to the world andso anybody can listen to it.
(05:27):
So I just want to say thanksagain, susan, for being here.
I'm really, really honored andI'm looking forward to this
conversation and I'm lookingforward to hearing more about
what you have to say and theimportance of it, and the one
thing you've said before isabout encouraging change or
expanding our perspectives, andthat's something that if we
(05:49):
don't talk about these things,then we're not going to change
and our perspectives aren'tgoing to be expanded, because we
need to tell stories and weneed to share our own
experiences, to educate and toinspire and to lead.
So thank you again.
Susan (06:08):
Thank you.
And I guess the other part tosharing and telling stories is
to create the conditionsnecessary for proper listening.
So one of the things that Ireally value in my life is deep
conversation.
(06:29):
There's the cursory hello, howare you fine, have a good day?
That sort of thing.
That's quite surfaceconversation and it's necessary
conversation.
And also conversation whereit's like the person is waiting
for an opportunity to tell theirstory but they're not really
(06:50):
listening and not really gettingto the heart of what the person
is saying.
So I think this conversation isabout understanding one another
a little bit more and gettinginto that deeper listening mode.
Eric (07:05):
I love that and I know from the conversations that I've
had with you in the past thatyou are such a great listener
that I find it's you're just soeasy to talk to and I never feel
rushed, because I knowsometimes I can get my brain
going a million miles and I feellike when I talk to you I can
just slow down and work my mindand my being and work at a
(07:30):
normal pace.
So, thank you, you do create agreat environment for listening
and conversation.
Susan (07:38):
That's a high compliment, Eric.
Eric (07:42):
So thank you for that.
Before we get started, though,today, because before we get
into kind of some of the workthat you're doing and a little
bit more of your kind ofprofessional story, and then the
burgeoning educator that I knowthat you are and that the great
educator I know that you'regoing to be, why don't you just
(08:04):
introduce to the audience alittle bit more about you, like,
who are you, where you live?
Tell us a little bit, tell us alittle bit of background about
Susan.
Susan (08:14):
Yeah, okay, I'd be happy to do that.
So at the moment I live inBrandon, manitoba, canada, and
it's right in the middle of theprairies.
I live in a valley and it's fedby the.
We're watered by the AsiniboineRiver, a beautiful, beautiful
(08:35):
river, and I've been here forover 20 years I'm 52 now and I
lived here when I was in my team.
So I did my I guess my junior,high and high school here, and
then I moved to Winnipeg and Iactually started in the Faculty
(08:57):
of Science with the aim of goinginto medicine at that time, and
obviously that didn't go theway I intended and it just
seemed that no, I'm a differentsort of healer.
And so here I am as a massagetherapy, a massage therapist.
So lots of things havetranspired between those times.
(09:20):
But I live on Treaty 2 and I'moriginally from Treaty 1, which
is in Winnipeg, so that's whereI was born and I lived in
Northern Minnetoba from the agesof three until nine, and so
that land and those experienceshave really, really, really
(09:41):
shaped me into really who I am.
I'm going to just tell you somefun anecdotes about my time up
north.
One of the great things aboutmy childhood was we had a lot of
unsupervised place.
So anybody who was born in the70s, maybe the 60s or whatever
(10:03):
we had a lot of unsupervisedplay, and so I would just go out
as soon as my feet hit thefloor in the morning, I was
outside and my mom had to remindme to come in to have a drink
or have a bite to eat orsomething.
Because I was just so absorbedin play and one of the things
the neighborhood kids and I usedto like to do is we'd like to
(10:25):
go and hunt frogs.
Well, we wouldn't kill them, wewould collect frogs and we
thought they were so cute, andso we got pails and we brought
them home and our mother saidyou can't bring them in the
house.
I was like, well, why not?
We want to keep them as pets.
It's like, well, that's notfair to the frog, but what we'll
(10:46):
do is we'll let you keep themin their pails overnight on the
porch and then you have torelease them in the morning.
So we went, yeah, ok, thatmakes sense.
And so we agreed and there wasthis one little girl on our
block and she wasn't very goodat collecting frogs and she was
(11:08):
whining and wanting us to shareour frogs with her.
It's like no, here's your pail,there's your, just go in there
and get it, like we didn't seethe big deal.
So she never got any frogs andshe went home and complained to
her dad and then at nighttimeher dad was caught trying to
steal our frogs and he got intoa great big fight with the
(11:33):
neighborhood moms and all of usheard the fight.
Eric (11:38):
Oh, my goodness.
Susan (11:40):
Anyway, he went home empty-handed.
So no frogs for Shonda, whichis our friend.
So we had beautiful things likethat.
That we did often and it's just.
I guess why I share that storyis there has always been this
tremendous curiosity that I'vecarried with me and that's just
(12:01):
part of a core piece of mypersonality and that's what I
bring to this work.
And to thread that piece inwith what I do now is I guess I
won an educator award or aneducation award.
So I think in Manitoba here wehave a Heather Whitaker of
(12:26):
Memorial Award.
So if you get over 100 creditsthen you get that award.
So in my first few years ofpractice, as soon as I qualified
, I got it.
And that's just because of thatcuriosity, wow.
Eric (12:43):
That's a lovely story.
So your reward was because youhad pursued so much education,
like you'd kept on takingcourses and then doing workshops
and whatnot to keep learning.
I love that and that's such agreat thing to hear because this
is a conversation probably notin the context of what we're
going to have today, but just ingeneral for massage therapy is
(13:05):
that I would love for morepeople to be curious and to
explore things that maybe theydon't know well or things that
maybe make them a little bituncomfortable, Because if you
just keep searching for the sametype of information, you get
stuck in that bias of justlearning the same thing or
(13:26):
variations of the same thing.
I think it's so important forcurious and we want to expand
our knowledge.
We have to explore a whole widevariety of different topics and
ideas.
So I love that you write out ofthe gate, see where, boom right
into being curious and justtrying to learn all the
different things that you could.
(13:47):
That's great.
Susan (13:49):
And what you say about that bias?
Is there a name for that kindof bias?
Isn't it at the Dunning-Krugereffect?
Eric (13:55):
Yeah, dunning-kruger is.
I believe someone's probablygoing to tell me I'm wrong,
because they listen to us when Iget a message, I think it's
basically it's kind of like youdon't know what you don't know,
or you think you know more thanyou do, kind of thing.
Susan (14:09):
Okay, so that's slightly more nuanced than what you're
talking about.
Eric (14:13):
I mean one thing that humans do and I see this all the
time in our professions there'sthat confirmation bias.
We want to search for thingsthat make us feel good, which is
great.
I like to do that too but Ithink that the real learning
occurs is when we search forknowledge that makes us feel a
little bit uncomfortable,because that's how it's going to
expand our minds and our way ofthinking.
(14:34):
This challenge is my bias.
This challenge is what I think.
I know I don't like how thatfeels, but it must mean it's
important.
At least that's how I've had toswitch my thinking over the
years.
Susan (14:46):
Absolutely.
And you know, I think that'sprobably a maturity marker when
you can set aside your own egoand say well, wait a second here
.
Why don't I just listen to whatthe person is trying to tell me
?
And do I have the skills andthe capacity to put my own
thinking aside and just listento what they're trying to tell
(15:08):
me?
Yes, yeah, and that takes a lotof skill and that's a maturity
marker in my view.
Eric (15:18):
Like you and I were probably.
We're on that mature spectrum,I think, of life.
Now we're not 20 anymore, so Ithink, as time goes on, time is
a learner or time is a teacher.
I guess you should say, timeteaches us too, yeah.
Susan (15:35):
And we never stop developing.
I guess one of the gifts I canoffer this profession is our
Anishinaabe and indigenouspeople.
We really value elders, andwhen I say elders I don't mean
(15:56):
elderly, but I'm people who havebeen able to survive many
things.
They know a lot of things aboutlife, and so those people are
revered in our culture.
So whenever I go to indigenousled anything and then I come
(16:17):
back from that into mainstreamsociety, it's always jarring.
For that reason it's like oh,we're such a youth worshiping
culture.
Mainstream culture is.
And I'm the oldest therapist inour clinic.
So the clinic I work out ofthere's 11 therapists and, as I
say, I just turned 52.
(16:38):
And I'm working alongside many20 year olds and some are a
little bit older than that, butI notice the attitudes even
amongst the clients.
I see the interactions are alot different.
Eric (16:57):
That's such an interesting thing.
I never really thought aboutthat before.
How do you find that the othertherapists that you work with do
they, like you, get on wellwith them?
Is there a mutual respect or isit just kind of you guys share
workspace?
I?
Susan (17:11):
think we get on quite well.
Yeah, yeah, but there'sdefinitely some generation gaps.
Things that I find historicallyfunny are kind of blasé.
I think I'm in the category ofdad jokes.
Oh, I love it.
Eric (17:35):
I'm a dad, so I got a hold of it.
Susan (17:39):
It's a great clinic environment and we do get on
well.
But I do notice a few littleinteresting things and I also
wonder how do clients choosetheir therapist when they're in
a clinic and there's a varietyof choices?
So I always find thatinteresting and sometimes I
(18:00):
wonder.
It's like, well, if they see me, they see my picture or
whatever, and then notice thatI'm an older therapist or
whatever, how that's perceived.
Is that perceived as oh, Idon't want an old one because
they may not give as muchpressure as I want?
Or it might be the opposite oh,this person might have been
(18:21):
around for a long time, I wantsomebody more experienced.
So the bias is I'm only fiveyears into RMT practice.
It's just very interesting tome.
It's a question I wonder.
Eric (18:33):
Yeah, I've always wondered that too.
You bring up a good point theretoo.
But there is this youth bias onprofession.
But I think a lot.
I think I would love to seewhat the actual numbers are.
I wouldn't be surprised if themajority of the people in our
profession are probably in thatlate 20s to maybe 40-ish age
(18:55):
range.
It's probably most people.
So it's probably ayouth-dominated profession.
Because you don't tend to seeat least in my experience, you
don't tend to see a lot oftherapists when they're 50s or
60s.
It tends to be lower numbers.
Susan (19:13):
On the other hand, whenever I go to an association
event, I'm always delighted tosee older practicing therapists
and it gives me a lot ofencouragement and a lot of hope.
It's like, yeah, because I wantto be doing this for a very
long time to come.
Eric (19:32):
Of course.
Of course you go through allthat time and energy and money
to go to school.
Why only lasts 10 years?
That's one thing that you hearoften all the time.
Well, an average massagetherapist only works for 10
years, and I think.
Well, is that true?
I don't know.
I know a lot of therapists.
I'm doing my 16th year ofpractice and most people I went
(19:53):
to school with are stillpracticing.
Like you said, when you go tothese events, whether it's an
association event or aconference of some kind, I
usually see more older orexperienced therapists there
than younger ones.
I almost wonder if that's justas we get older.
Maybe we want to become moreinvolved with the profession, or
(20:14):
we want to maybe leave sometype of mark on the profession
as we're on our way out or aswe're on our way to retire.
Maybe people I feel that peoplemaybe want to get more involved
.
Now, that's just a totallybiased observation, but that's
what I see.
Susan (20:32):
That might be a very interesting line of question for
associations to determine frommembership.
Eric (20:40):
Yeah, yeah, I'll send a message to MPAM and ask them see
what they say at yourprofession or your association
in the map.
So I wanted to talk to youtoday, susan, about your journey
into being an educator and justmaybe just tell us a little bit
about your motivation for that.
Susan (21:00):
Okay, that's a cool question, all right.
So there's a poet by the nameof Robert Croach and he wrote
this collection of poems calledthe Seed Catalog, and in one of
those poems there's this oneline how do you grow a poet and
(21:27):
I think of massage therapy thatway how do you grow a therapist?
I find that question really,really interesting because you
know, you don't just go to aperson, doesn't just go to
school and get qualified andthen start practicing, like
(21:48):
there's antecedents to thatwhole process.
So I like to say that I startedmassage therapy.
It has really long roots I'mgoing to get into it now here.
(22:09):
So in my as an intergenerationalsurvivor of residential schools
, and intergenerational survivormeans that my parents went
through the residential schoolsystem and they survived school
and then I was born and Isurvived them and yeah, yeah.
(22:35):
And so part of one aspect ofbeing an intergenerational
survivor is the lack of touch,and I'm the kind of person who
really enjoys touch and I enjoythe process of coming into
somebody's space with theirpermission.
(22:55):
I enjoy inviting people into myspace for a hug or just an
interpersonal exchange, a touchon the elbow, that kind of thing
.
So there is a part of me thatjust really really craves touch
and needs touch on a regularbasis, and that was something
(23:17):
that I was denied as anintergenerational survivor and
that has roots, I would say, inthe kind of touch that my
parents received in school.
So there was no touchingallowed and whatever touch there
was, it was usually punishmentstrapping.
(23:38):
There is usually neglect, likekids would often get locked up
and confined for a varietyamount of time.
So there's this disconnect withtouch and we all need that
(23:58):
nurturing touch.
I remember being really blownaway by hearing one of our
massage teachers talk about howour skin is our first brain
tissue right, it evolved out ofbrain tissue and my mind was
totally blown when I heard that.
(24:19):
And then he gave me a littlenudge and said well, if you want
to learn more about that, youshould learn about etymology.
So I read up a little bit aboutthat and I thought that makes
perfect sense why I would cravetouch and why I've got this
curious nature too, becausethose two things go hand in hand
(24:43):
.
It's all about the nervoussystem and the intellect and, I
guess, the emotional bonding.
So in surviving and beingsurvivors, that bonding, the
mechanisms of bonding withanother human being, was really,
really, really disrupted and Ialways wanted just to feel
(25:07):
better.
And I remember I know I'mjumping timelines and stuff, I
hope everyone can keep up herebut I remember when I was in
theater school and I was in my20s and I had my first taste of
(25:27):
relaxation in an Alexandertechnique class and we also did
some Feldenkrais, so workingwith the jaw, and I was so
relaxed.
That was the first time I hadfelt relaxation in a very long
time I've got, I'd say probably10 or more years, if I ever felt
(25:51):
relaxation.
And I remember going home and Icried for three days and then
when that was finished, I sat upand I looked around and went.
What just happened?
What's that all about?
Why did I have that kind ofresponse?
And I never got an answer tothat question until I started
(26:15):
massage school and learningabout the nervous system, doing
my own reading about attachment,bonds and touch and
understanding not just themechanisms but just the profound
connection that can happen.
And then another thing thatprompted me on this journey was
(26:37):
another deep, somatic responsein a yoga class and our teacher
very, very skilled teacher.
He led us in a loving, kindnessmeditation, but we did it with
holding a yoga pose.
So, for instance, we would holddownward facing dog for maybe a
(27:00):
minute or two, and all the timewe were we were to repeat in
our minds may I be happy thatone dropping that one thought in
, and then we'd go into anotherpose that we could hold for
about that length of timecomfortably, and then we would
go on to another section of theloving kindness.
(27:24):
And so we were after about anhour and a half of dropping
loving kindness messages into mybody like an IV drip, drip,
drip.
By the time it came to Shavasanathere was a volcano.
My body cried and heaved andstopped.
(27:46):
There was no controlling it and, thank goodness, my teacher was
trauma informed and he just satby my head and he held my head
very, very gently a craniocacralgentle and let it pass through
me.
He didn't try to stop it, hedidn't try to comfort me, he was
(28:08):
just there in it, the gentlestway.
And then, when it was startingto come down and I started to
stabilize, he waited till I wasstable enough and then he very
gently took his hands away andthen carried on, closing up the
practice.
And then and then he justcarried on as if nothing unusual
(28:31):
had occurred, and so he wasteaching that whole class how to
respond to a somatic responseby just being himself, but in a
very skilled way, and not to beafraid of it.
Eric (28:50):
Wow, that's just holding that safe space for you just to
experience what you'reexperiencing, without judgment,
without anything, just beingthere for you sounds super
powerful and really somethingthat influenced your life in a
huge way.
Susan (29:11):
And in an unflinching manner.
You know, I don't know ifyou've ever experienced somebody
being confronted withsomebody's pain or somebody else
being confronted with your painand they flinch and so that
makes you think, oh no, there'ssomething wrong with me.
So all of your pain sciencebackground would have thoughts
(29:38):
to say on that topic.
So very important in thosekinds of scenarios to be strong
enough to not flinch.
Yeah.
Eric (29:51):
Yeah, that's one thing we talk about.
You know this isn't about me,but yeah, just you bring that up
.
There's one thing that it'sreally important to talk about
in a lot of the courses that Ido, and I think it's important
for anybody listening that ifyou are in somebody that's
experiencing that is really likeyou said.
I love that.
I love the word usesunflinching.
It's just, it's really justsitting in that empathy with the
(30:12):
person and just withoutjudgment, without flinching,
without reacting, and just beingthere is making the person
really feel safe, like it's okayand it's this is this needs to
happen, and this is just part ofthe process, of what you're
going through right now.
You know, sometimes it feelslike you're not doing anything,
and this is the thing.
I think what happens with a lotof therapists is they, they feel
(30:33):
like they need to say something, you feel like they need to
jump in, they need to dosomething, but sometimes just
just do nothing, just just kindof.
By doing nothing I'm puttingthat in air quotes.
You know this is going to beaudio only, so be willing to see
us with this is that doingnothing is actually you're doing
a lot, and it's extreme can beextremely powerful for the
(30:55):
person.
So your story is, I think, isreally important to share.
Susan (31:03):
I think I should also add to that that the it's not about
pushing down or suppressingyour own like, say, somebody has
a somatic experience on yourtable.
So, for instance, for ourlisteners listening in, maybe
maybe they're reflecting andthinking about their own
clinical practice that it's notso much about not doing anything
(31:27):
but you have to be strongenough to hold that.
Yeah, you know.
And it's not about suppressing,it's about still being, still
feeling connected to your center.
Right, the moment you step outof your center and go into fear
is where things can get a littlebit shaky, where you're not
(31:48):
holding the space well enoughfor that somatic response to
complete.
Eric (31:55):
Yeah, Thanks for that clarification.
Yeah, I was kind of being a bitflippant with the doing nothing
, just meaning like.
But yeah, you're you're, you'rebeing present and you're being
strong, but it's sometimes itcan feel like you're not doing
much to the outside observer andlook like you're not really
doing much.
Susan (32:14):
Yeah.
So let's just remember thispart of the conversation,
because that I'd like to talk alittle bit about holding space,
but I'm going to save that forlater, so, just if I forget,
remind me that that that wholeexperience again, that made me
(32:35):
go, what just happened here, andso that was another part of the
curiosity that led me on toeventually becoming an RMT many,
many years later.
The answers didn't come justlike that, they had to sit.
(32:56):
I had to go through a lot oflife experiences, make decisions
, feel the consequences of thosedecisions good or bad or
neutral and then and then youknow, and so those things guided
me forward, and I'll shareanother story that led me to
(33:16):
this path.
Well, I guess there's two morethings, but one thing was when I
was in theater training, I wasalways told you're not in the
moment, and that, anddissociation is something that
happens to trauma survivors, andI didn't realize that I was so
(33:37):
dissociated, and so it come outin my creative work and I did
not know what they meant bybeing present.
And so I'd ask well, what doyou mean?
I'm not in the moment?
Well, it means you're notpresent.
Well, what does that mean?
And and so the on and on thequestion went and the more my
(33:59):
teachers who were trying to behelpful, the more they talked,
the less I understood.
Eric (34:06):
Isn't that?
Susan (34:06):
funny, yeah, and maybe they themselves didn't have a
handle on what that meant.
You know so what?
I started the journey on withmy yoga teacher and the yoga
studio that helped me on my waythere.
When I first felt my feet like,really felt my feet on the
(34:31):
ground and really felt my owngait cycle, I'm like that's what
my feet feel like, that's whatmy legs feel like, that's what
my hips, and, oh my God, I wasoverjoyed.
It felt so good to be embodied,because I had been disembodied
(34:51):
for so long and I had never beentaught any of this.
And so I became a verydedicated student in yoga and
eventually became a teacher andtaught classes for a few years
here in Brandon.
(35:12):
But my curiosity carried on.
I got into Thai massage.
I went out east to Montreal andToronto area.
I followed my teacher, and HartHart Laser is his name, he
co-owns United Yoga Montreal andI took a few courses and
(35:33):
seminars with him there andcontinued the journey a little
bit more.
And then I got into the Thaimassage, which was very
interesting.
And then I started noticingthat when I was practicing Thai
massage, that there were certainmovements that the ordinary
desk jockey couldn't do, and Iwondered well, why isn't that
(35:57):
shoulder moving, why doesn't ithave full range of motion?
And so should I just yank on itmore?
Should I?
Just I didn't know.
It's like sometimes that didn'thave such good results, and so
then I thought, well, Idefinitely need to know more.
(36:17):
And then that's when I saved upmy money and decided it was
time to go back to school tobecome an RMT, and then I got
some answers from that education, which I'm very grateful for.
Eric (36:32):
That's fantastic.
I love the story, I love yourjourney and I love the varied
background that you have andremember you told me before
about your journey to theatreand I think that's a neat place
to come from and it sounds likeI taught you a bunch of great
lessons about yourself but alsoabout kind of triggering you
(36:55):
into the world that you live nowas a massage therapist.
Susan (37:02):
I guess I should say that , coming back to the
intergenerational trauma pieceis that's.
The other thing that wasstripped away and quite heavily
shamed was identity, and so itwas.
No.
It's a no brainer now when Ilook and reflect back on my life
(37:25):
and the choices that I made.
Why theatre, you know, and thetheatre is all about playing
with your identity.
You can become a differentperson.
You can play with your imageand shape yourself.
You can be a shape shifter, soI became a very good shape
(37:45):
shifter in my theatre years.
What ultimately happened, though, was because I didn't have my
core identity as an AnishinaabeKwee, as an Indigenous woman.
(38:05):
That made me not want to beIndigenous at all, so it made
perfect sense for me to findways around that, but that
eventually did catch up with me,and because I didn't have that
core, there was only so far thatI could go.
I couldn't run forever, and so Imade that painful journey of
(38:32):
coming out of shame, out of theIndigenous, of my Indigenous
identity, and a large part ofthat came from reading the Truth
and Reconciliation reports andgoing to the first event in
Winnipeg and understanding andowning really really owning that
(38:54):
story and understanding myselfas a survivor, understanding my
parents as survivors,understanding my grandparents as
survivors.
And then, when I sat andreckoned with that whole family
story and the agenda and thereasons behind it, the agenda,
(39:18):
that was both very painful butyet it was extremely liberating.
It's like aha, that's why.
That's why, and so, all of asudden, things just started
falling into place and then Ibegan to see like a tapestry or
a mosaic.
It's like that magic eye.
(39:38):
You remember those magic eyethings.
You look at it and you have torelax your gaze and then you see
the image.
It was like that.
Eric (39:47):
Wow.
So your journey.
This is interesting.
This is something that you canexpand on more if you'd like to.
I'm interested in that.
Hopefully the Lawrence would betoo.
You mentioned both shame andabout how you didn't want to be
an Indigenous woman, and so youfound other avenues or outlets
(40:10):
to express who you thought youshould be, or who you didn't
want to be who you were.
How was that transition is thatthe right word to go from being
somebody who you didn't want tobe an Indigenous woman to all
(40:31):
of a sudden identifying and thenkind of bringing that back and
now being somebody who's areally big advocate for
reconciliation and forIndigenous identity?
Can you tell a bit more aboutthat story?
Susan (40:45):
That's a very difficult question to.
I don't know if there's ananswer.
I don't really know if there'san answer, but all I know is
that it was liberating to read,as painful as it was.
I think it was a lot of undoingsome of the cultural narratives
(41:05):
that are out there in society,which is a barrier to the
outside.
I guess the mainstream culturewants to keep those shame pieces
in place.
You're no good as a human being, you're drunk, you have a
(41:29):
tendency to have diabetes andyou're prone to disease.
You're prone to this.
You're prone to that.
I have all negative messageswhich I'm surrounded by to this
day.
I still have to.
I encounter that in theclinical encounters and I have
(41:50):
to remain professional and getmy ego out of it and go and
listen.
What is this person reallysaying?
How do I manage that?
I guess I'm not reallyanswering your question, eric,
because I don't know if there isan answer.
Maybe there's a different wayto asking that question or maybe
(42:11):
it's not the right questionright now.
I don't know.
Eric (42:15):
Yeah, it was just a thought just because of just
listening to your story a coupleof times here.
This is the second time I'veheard part of your story.
I was just curious about thejourney of what you've been
through to where you were youare today.
(42:36):
I don't know if there's a goodquestion.
I don't know if that is reallya question or if it's just an
open-ended statement.
Susan (42:47):
Yeah, Okay, okay.
Sometimes I have to sit with aquestion and hear it again and
then something comes up.
This is one of those instances.
So, definitely, reading the TRCreports, talking to my mom,
spending time with her,forgiving her and coming to
(43:14):
unconditional love with herthose have all been things that
have helped To notice that shecarries a lot of shame To go.
Oh, I see, I see, because Iclear up my own shame, maybe I'm
helping her clear up hers, Idon't know.
(43:35):
So, when all of those readingof the reports happened, it was
such a powerful time.
And then I also realized, youknow, I haven't really looked at
my.
I don't know my language.
I don't know the Anishinaabelanguage.
(43:55):
I don't know the ceremonies.
That's something that I reallylonged for.
I didn't know where they werehappening.
One day I saw a post onFacebook and Marie Sinclair had
posted or reshared whereceremonies were happening and it
said everyone welcome.
And I went.
I'm everyone and that's myheritage, so I should go.
(44:19):
So I went.
That was last year and I hadanother one of those somatic
reactions.
I was listening to AnishinaabeMoin, the Anishinaabe language,
and I didn't understand, but Icould feel the language in my
body and again I had anothersomatic response and that whole
(44:44):
time I was at ceremony I washaving those somatic responses
and that was really powerful.
And so I thought, okay, thismust be that melting of that
shame coming off.
And then I started thinking Iwonder how many Indigenous
(45:05):
massage therapists there are.
I wonder how many Indigenousclients there are, who of us are
seeking treatment.
And so I became interested inthat question and also in the
association.
There were some people who werecoming, who were approaching to
(45:28):
me, approached me and asked meabout Indigenous this,
indigenous that and that kind ofgot my mind thinking about some
of these questions.
And so it went from there andthen I started reading the calls
(45:49):
to action and with massagetherapists in mind, and that's
how I started putting thingstogether and thinking, ah, you
know, this would be great formassage therapists to know about
whether they're Indigenous ornot.
And then I took Pam Fitch'strauma-informed care course.
(46:14):
And at that point I didn't knowPam personally, I knew her by
reputation.
So I took her course.
I think it was six weeks, sixSaturdays in a row and after we
were finished the course then Ireached out to her and she
(46:35):
responded and we set up a timeto meet and we chatted and I
reached out to her because Ifelt and she always gives this
impression that she will bethere for you unconditionally.
She has an unconditionalpositive regard for anybody she
(46:55):
talks to and she, just by hertalking, just her presence, she
gives off that vibe and I knewthat she was a safe person to
talk to and that she'd have asense of openness and curiosity
as well about what I wasthinking about, even though I
(47:18):
wasn't really sure about what Iwas thinking.
But I just had a spark of anidea, and so her and I came up
with, through many conversations, many hours of hashing out
content and putting together the10 things RMTs should know
(47:38):
about reconciliation.
And so we developed a webinartogether on that topic, which
we've shared twice now to thisdate.
We shared a webinar for MTAAM,for the Massage Therapy
Association of Manitoba, and forRMTAO in Ontario.
Eric (47:58):
Yeah, and I've seen the one that you did without PAM and
I'm assuming they're both verysimilar.
One of them is you guystogether or are they separate?
And so when you presented to mycommunity, that was the 10
(48:19):
things RMTs need to know aboutreconciliation.
Is that the exact samepresentation that you do with
PAM or is they slightlydifferent?
Susan (48:25):
There's slight variations when PAM is presenting.
She goes more intotrauma-informed care and
considerations for that, and shealso gives valuable content and
insights into her settleridentity.
Okay.
Eric (48:47):
Which is very interesting.
Yeah.
Susan (48:51):
You were going to ask a question.
No, I was just going to say no,go ahead.
Eric (48:54):
I was just going to ask you how, with the kind of
feedback and how things havebeen received during your
presentations.
But you can maybe answer thatafter you tell us a little bit
about PAM and her settleridentity.
Susan (49:09):
That's interesting to me.
Yeah, I wanted to do it likethat, because having a settler
person and an Indigenous personpresent together is actually
even more powerful, because thenthere's a dialogue happening,
for one thing, and we both comefrom very different identities.
(49:35):
And how do those identitiescome together and talk about the
same thing?
We'll have a differentperspective depending.
So PAM brings her settleridentity and she's modeling
allyship.
So allyship is where you becomean ally and you stand alongside
(50:00):
and support a more marginalizedvoice.
So she does an exquisite job atthat.
So she relates to herself as asettler.
In the presentation she talksabout her own relationship to
(50:23):
her land or the land that sheresides on, and people listen to
her a little bit differentlythan they listen to me If I do
the presentation on my own.
Sometimes I worry about whetherI just sound like an angry
(50:44):
Indigenous person or a woundedperson.
And because PAM comes withwhiteness comes privilege.
So there's this white privilegeaspect.
So we tend there's a bias onlistening to people who are
(51:04):
white, because whites have moreauthority and more social power
than a marginalized voice does,and so people will listen to a
white voice a lot easier than anon-white voice.
And not only that, but PAM alsohas like 30 plus years of
(51:26):
practice under her belt.
She's an authority in her ownright and she's earned that.
But we also do need toacknowledge that there is some
unearned privilege there and shedemonstrates.
You know, she acknowledges thatand that way she's a very good
role model and showing otherpeople how to demonstrate
(51:46):
allyship.
Eric (51:47):
And that's something that when I heard you talk before,
that you know, something youjust never really you never
really think of is.
You know?
I should say, a lot of us don'tthink of.
It is that kind of that settlerprivilege and you know, when
(52:09):
you mentioned that before I justreally made he's kind of really
hits you like, hits you deep inyour soul.
You realize that, yeah, likethe privileges that we have and
the lifestyle that we have andhow it came to be.
We need to acknowledge that andunderstand that, because it does
set us up for that privilegefor sure, and that, you know, I
(52:35):
don't think many of us spendmuch time thinking about that.
We just go on about our livesand don't realize.
Susan (52:44):
Yeah.
So if I were, if I didn't knowyou and I came to you seeking
care, I would be watching youvery, very carefully.
What you say, what you don'tsay, how you say it.
Are you dismissive, are youaccepting?
(53:09):
What kinds of words do you use?
Like there's a lot of watchingto make sure is like okay, am I
going to be okay with thisperson you might agree with to
have a treatment with you, buteven during the treatment I'll
(53:30):
still be, I'll still be kind ofwatching.
Eric (53:35):
Yeah, and that's something we probably we never think
about, is it?
I mean?
That's why these conversationsare so important.
So thanks for sharing that,that's I mean.
The more I listen to you andthe more I try to learn about
these really powerful, importanttopics, it's every time I
(53:55):
listen to you speak it's I getsomething.
I get something more for me toreflect on and to think about.
Susan (54:04):
And, yeah, this sounds like a good time to talk a
little bit about cultural safety, yeah please.
Indigenous cultural safety, Alsoa topic that I came across, a
term that I came across in myreading.
So I read this book which is achapter of it's a chapters of
(54:30):
essays on, and it's called whitebenevolence and that's how even
like white people, like inprofessionals, can come across
as like benevolence can be aform of violence.
And that's where it's like.
(54:54):
It's like white whiteness knowsbetter and you know and can
think better, make betterdecisions, and so like social
workers and any kind of caringprofession can fall into that,
into being caring, but it has a.
It has a bit of a weird vibe toit, but culturally safe
(55:21):
practice.
I'm going to now refer to mynotes here because I want to
make sure I get this right, sobear with me.
Here there is a piece by adissertation by Dr Laurie
Harding, and she wrote adissertation called what's the
(55:43):
Harm and it's all about howIndigenous people have been
harmed in the healthcare systemand how to, how to fix it, how
to address it.
And so the cultural safety wasfirst articulated by a Maori
(56:05):
nurse and her work was publishedfor the Ministry of Education
for New Zealand in 1990.
So I'm just going to go overwhat she says about this and
she's coming from a nursingperspective, but we can
certainly draw from that astherapists.
(56:26):
Here's what she says.
She says the effective nursingpractice of a person or family
from another culture and isdetermined by that person or
family.
Culture includes, but is notrestricted to, age or generation
, gender, sexual orientation,occupation and socioeconomic
status, ethnic origin or migrantexperience, religious or
(56:50):
spiritual belief and disability.
The nurse delivering thenursing service will have
undertaken a process ofreflection on his or her own
cultural identity and willrecognize the impact that his or
her personal culture has on hisor her professional practice.
Unsafe cultural practicecomprises any action which
(57:13):
diminishes, demeans ordisempowers the cultural
identity and well-being of anindividual.
So, in short, she's saying thatthe cultural safety is a
practitioner who reflects ontheir own cultural identity and
(57:36):
understands that that's going toimpact the person who they're
providing care for.
Eric (57:46):
That's really well said and I know from our conversation
that we had previously.
I just speak of Maori theBernie, who is part of our
membership group too.
She reached out and I think Ishared that message with you
about her experience being aMaori woman and therapist in New
(58:07):
Zealand and it was sointeresting to hear and I've
talked to her quite a bit overthe years back and forth, but
that was the first time shereally shared her experiences
being an Indigenous woman downNew Zealand and realizing that
the Indigenous culture is allover the world, how they've been
impacted.
And then cultural safety is theone thing that seems to
(58:30):
resonate or seems to beconsistent across the world.
So let's talk about I mean justbecause I feel, like we could
probably do an entire.
We could probably talk for 10hours, susan, which is great,
(58:51):
but let's just there needs to bea part too.
We might not need to do a parttoo.
We might, yeah, because I'mjust looking at how long we've
been going here for which isgreat and it just feels like we
barely even brushed the surfaceof the topic.
So maybe we will do a part tooagain, but I guess the one thing
I really wanted because Ireally wanted to kind of promote
your message and what you'redoing and I really want people
(59:12):
to understand the importance ofthe work you're doing.
But maybe if you could justtell the listeners a little bit
more about, kind of like, someof the main takeaways of your,
of the content that you'reteaching, and what do you hope
people are going to walk awayfrom if they listen to you teach
or they take a course of yoursor listen to you speak at a
(59:36):
conference.
What are the things that youwant them to know?
Susan (59:43):
Well, I think, reconciliation and the TRC
reports.
I really want people to readthe reports, and just as
citizens of this country, butalso as their development as a
human being.
So I'll go back to that pointthat I made earlier about how do
you grow a therapist?
(01:00:03):
Yeah, please.
That inspired by Robert Croachand this is part of how you grow
yourself as a therapist and howyou grow yourself as a human
being.
I want to really relay themessage that you can be felt
(01:00:24):
through your touch.
Like that might sound likestating the obvious, and I find
many profound things are aboutstating the obvious, but and
it's not just about safe touch,but it's also about like this
person gets me Right.
(01:00:44):
So if you're providing massagetherapy for a, say, an
indigenous person, they're goingto feel like.
If I'm receiving care fromanother therapist who is not
indigenous, I can feel throughtheir touch if they get me or
not, and I think that's a very,very, very human thing is we all
(01:01:08):
want to be understood 100%agree.
Yeah, I think that's justfundamental, in my view at least
.
So I want people to be able toexpand on their touch repertoire
(01:01:29):
of you know, do I understandthis person?
Do I understand this personenough to be in a place where I
can give them unconditional,positive regard, like Pam does,
even just with her presence overZoom Right?
Yeah, if you can do that forthe person on your table you
(01:01:52):
know, no matter where they comefrom or what their your own
cultural identity or thatperson's cultural identity, is
there some way that we can justtap into our own humanity, human
to human right?
Eric (01:02:08):
Like I've already said, everybody wants to feel
understood and how you want.
People can feel that, whetherthe therapist gets you or not
and that's something we've allexperienced, I think, as
therapists, giving massage aswell as receiving them.
And there is, you know, if wewant to bring the science to it
(01:02:30):
too, there's lots of evidencethat suggests that people can
yeah, they can read or what thatperson is intending with their
touch and what they're feelingand what they're thinking.
And our touch is so powerfuland so often we try to, I think
(01:02:53):
in our profession we try to turnthe massage aspect of the hands
on into some kind of justspecific, mechanistic
explanation about like this iswhat we're doing to joints and
to tissues and stuff, whereas Ithink that we really need to
have a lot more of that kind oflike somatic, kind of perceptual
(01:03:13):
, you know, emotional context,effective context of our touch,
and realize how powerful that is.
And that's probably morepowerful than the mechanistic
kind of stuff that often getsportrayed as being the most
important in our profession, andI don't know if I agree with
(01:03:35):
that.
Susan (01:03:37):
I mean it's important, absolutely, there's no question
it's important, but this is thenext level of competence, right,
yeah, yeah.
Eric (01:03:52):
It's true they're all important.
But yeah, you're right, there'slike level one and there's the
next level.
I like how you said that.
It's great.
Susan (01:03:59):
Yeah, and you can become more of yourself too, which
feels really great to say.
You know, and I always knowwhen something is being spoken
that feels right.
I can feel it through my wholebody that you become more of
yourself.
Eric (01:04:18):
Yeah.
Susan (01:04:19):
I never have those clients where it's like, yeah,
this person is my muse.
This is where, working withthis person, it brings out the
best in me.
Eric (01:04:33):
Oh, for sure.
Susan (01:04:35):
And I think, yeah, I want to treat those people all day
long, just connect with usreally well yeah.
And even if I can't connect withsomebody, then I will look for
ways to connect that areappropriate.
(01:04:56):
And some people they're a bitmore boundary than others and
maybe they don't want you inthat deep, but some people it's
just really effortless.
There's a flow to it, right.
And so with this work, withreconciliation work in massage
therapy, yeah, I just wantpeople to take away that next
(01:05:20):
bit of development as a humanbeing.
I wonder if there's anythingmore that needs to be said on
that.
Eric (01:05:31):
I think you put that into a very succinct explanation,
susan.
I guess the one thing I wantedto ask you, and just if anyone
listens do you have any futurespeaking gigs lined up or any
courses that you're going to beteaching in the future?
Susan (01:05:52):
That is something that I'm just looking at my notes
here just to see if there'sanything else I wanted to go
over here.
But no, I think I've said whatI needed to say on that last
question.
But okay, with speaking andwith courses, pam and I will
probably be working againtogether to as word spreads on
(01:06:15):
this topic and as we continue torefine the content and the work
, because, quite honestly, whenwe started looking at like it's
such a big, big, big topic,right.
So when we first started work,it's like well, what do we talk
about?
We were both kind of doing thiswith each other.
What do we say?
(01:06:35):
I don't know.
What do you say?
I don't know.
But Pam and I are looking to dosome more of these
presentations and we'd certainlylike to be invited if anybody
listening is curious and wantsto know more.
(01:06:56):
I'd like to develop a course onthis topic because there's many
, many facets.
Like we said, we need a parttwo to this conversation because
we haven't even gotten to a lotof things that we might have
wanted to talk about.
So that's what's in the futurefor that.
(01:07:18):
I'm also doing another podcastwith elder Jerry Ollman.
He has a beautiful podcast thatI'd really love people to
listen to and it's calledTeachings in the Air.
So it's so cute because likeunpowerful, unpoignant and all
that, because like all you haveto do is look around and there's
(01:07:41):
teachings everywhere,everywhere you look.
Isn't that such a beautifulthing to think about?
Jerry is an elder and he is apodcaster and he is a
residential school survivor andhe talks about healing body,
(01:08:01):
mind, spirit, what keeps ourbodies, what keeps our spirits
fed, those kinds of things.
So he always likes hislisteners to take responsibility
for their own health and toencourage that.
He's very restful to listen toas well.
He's quite enjoyable, and so Iget the privilege of talking to
(01:08:23):
him later in the week.
So that's what's next for me atthis time, but it's going to be
a growth process for sure.
One last thing I wanted to touchon before we start to close is
I did mention earlier in ourconversation about holding space
(01:08:44):
and one of my friends, heatherPlatt.
She wrote a book called the Artof Holding Space and I was a
facilitator for a couple ofyears for her program.
There's a coaching program onhow to hold space and this is
what she has to say about whatholding space is.
(01:09:06):
It's what we do when we walkalongside a person or a group on
a journey through liminal space.
Liminal space is like anin-between space, like moving
house, say.
That would be a liminal space.
You don't quite live here, butyou don't quite live there.
(01:09:27):
We do this without making themfeel inadequate, without trying
to fix them and without tryingto impact the outcome.
We open our hearts and offerunconditional support and let go
of judgment and control.
So that's what Heather has tosay about what holding space is
(01:09:50):
in short.
Eric (01:09:53):
I love that.
That's great.
I've never heard of it beingdefined that way, so I like that
a lot.
Susan (01:10:00):
And that just adds to what you were mentioning about
doing nothing.
Eric (01:10:04):
Yeah, doing nothing but actually doing a lot, yeah,
that's great, that's great.
Well, thanks, susan, for beinghere today.
I really appreciate your timeand I feel very privileged to
have you as a guest and to havegot to know you over the last
year a little bit better.
Did you have any final wordsyou wanted to say before we sign
(01:10:27):
off?
Susan (01:10:30):
No, just thank you so much, eric, and thank you to all
of your listeners for listeningand engaging in this topic and
this conversation.
And, yeah, I look forward tomore conversations and talking
about practice and that.
So that's all I have to say fornow.
(01:10:51):
Make much.
Eric (01:10:53):
Thank you, susan, and I appreciate that.
And yeah, let's see if we canget a part two, because when I
look at my notes or things Iwant to talk to you about, we've
only basically got throughabout half of them.
So we'll look to do that in thefuture.
So thank you very much.
Susan (01:11:07):
Bye, bye, eric Thank you.
Eric (01:11:10):
Thank you for listening.
Please subscribe so you can benotified of all future episodes.
Purpose Versus is available onall major podcast directories
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If you enjoyed this episode,please like, subscribe and share
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If you'd like to connect withme, I can be reached to my
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(01:11:32):
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