Healthcare Entrepreneurship: The RMT Experience with Carlos Grouchy RMT

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This is another episode on the new RMT experience with a deeper dive into healthcare entrepreneurship. I have a really interesting and enlightening chat with Carlos Grouchy, a Registered Massage Therapist who's working hard to make change in the wellness industry. Carlos has a unique, fun and evidence-based approach to massage therapy and wellness and he isn't afraid to question the status quo.

In our discussion, we address some of the unhelpful topics in the massage therapy field, as well as the challenges Carlos faced when thinking about opening his own clinic. Carlos shares his journey, his initial struggle with a lack of business knowledge, and the obstacles of building a brand in the healthcare space. He also illuminates how he's using social media to engage and educate the public about pain science and evidence based content.

We wrap up by looking at the trend of entrepreneurs transitioning their personal brands into brand empires and what that means for the healthcare industry. Carlos gives his take on how healthcare professionals can be educated on a comprehensive approach to wellness. From understanding their own physical capabilities, simplifying orthopaedic testing, to incorporating mental health education into massage therapy school.

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Episode Transcript

Eric (00:12):
Hello and welcome to the Purves vs Podcast.
My name is Eric Purves.
I am an RMT course creator,continuing education provider
and advocate for evidence-basedmassage therapy.
Today's episode features anentertaining discussion with
Carlos Grouchy, who is a new RMTthat practices in my hometown
of Victoria, bc.
Today we discuss his journeyinto the skepticism of what he

(00:34):
was being taught in massagetherapy school and how he is
using his new knowledge and painscience and evidence-based
content to better educate thepublic through social media and
through his wellness coachingcompany.
Our conversation evolves intoentrepreneurship and the rewards
and challenges of being anentrepreneur in the healthcare
business space.
As a heads up, please know thisepisode does include some

(00:57):
colorful and explicit language,so listen if you wish.
So thank you for being here andI hope you enjoy this episode.
Thank you for attending anotherepisode of Purvis vs Today.
I'm excited to have CarlosGroussi, but apparently he goes
by.
He prefers grouchy and I thinkthat sounds way cooler as well.

(01:18):
So thanks for being here today,carlos, just kind of tell us a
little bit about you, thanks forhaving me.
Yeah, introduce yourself, tellthe audience who you are and
what you're all about.

Carlos (01:27):
Okay.
So, carlos, here I'm a massagetherapist, registered massage
therapist, practicing inVictoria right now.
I have lived here for about 10years.
In terms of like sportsbackground, I played hockey
competitively that was kind ofmy thing growing up, but now I'm
just I pretty much enjoyabsolutely anything and
everything with moving the body.

(01:49):
I got into triathlon throughCOVID and now I'm really into
more, a bit more, a bit moremountain biking, always been
kind of into weight training andI've been doing massage for
four years now.
I graded in spring 2019.
So that's kind of where I'm at,and then I also do some
personal training stuff likethat and that's a bit of a

(02:10):
background I had with working ata training company for
professional collegiate and liketeen hockey players.

Eric (02:19):
Nice, did I connect with you like, I think, did I meet
you when you were a studentBecause you went to WCCM team
Victoria, yeah you yeah, you andJamie Johnson, I think.

Carlos (02:32):
Yeah, yeah, is that the guy's name, jamie?
Yeah, you guys came in for alittle kind of demo with
movement modifiers, stuff likethat, and I think that was the
first time I had exposure to you.

Eric (02:45):
Yeah, yeah, that's what I thought because I know we've
connected a few times online andstuff over then and you took
one of my courses one time and Iremember you you see me, that
was like a new grad or somethinglike fresh.
You had a lot of good questionsand you had a lot of like kind
of thoughts and skepticism,which is something that I always

(03:07):
like.
This guy's got something.
I like it, I like, I like theway.

Carlos (03:11):
Yeah yeah, so we'll get it.
Yeah, it was.
It was interesting.
Yeah, go ahead.
Yeah, we'll get into that, yeahbut it's interesting because I'd
say like school was a bit ofthe kind of halfway through some
stuff I was dealing withpersonally with pain, which I'm
I'm sure we'll get into in a bitit was sort of like I don't

(03:34):
think everything here is kind ofbeing spoken about in the right
way and so, like the skepticismstarted pretty early and I'm
just a skeptical person overall,I could say so I was kind of
just like smelled a bit stinkyand then when there were a
couple teachers that saidcertain things and you guys came
in, I was like okay, like this,this makes more sense and

(03:55):
things shouldn't be overlycomplicated, like, if they are,
it's usually people are justbullshit and I think I love that
you saw that, because it is sotrue that we oftentimes as
students, we're just kind ofjust take the BS that were fed
to us because we have to,because we don't know any
different and we and we have topass these exams.

Eric (04:14):
But yeah, I spent a lot of years.
Actually, I probably went threeor four years in a row.
I went into WCCMT and I don'tthink there's any surprise why I
haven't been invited back in along time, because I think it
became a little bit probablysome conflict between what some,
what some of the students weresaying and the faculty was

(04:35):
saying, and I think there'sprobably admin and some of the
people around the schoolprobably were like no, we don't
want him here anymore.
Maybe I'm wrong, but yeah,there's been a few times where
I've been invited into schoolsand I've had great feedback and
lots of information from thestaff member that's invited me,
as well as the.
The students have reached outlike this was great, but then

(04:58):
the, the, the higher ups arelike no, it's too controversial.

Carlos (05:02):
Yeah the truth is controversial.
Yeah, the truth will not setyou free anymore.

Eric (05:12):
No, no, the truth will keep you away, doesn't keep you
away from us.
So, yeah, anyway, yeah, solet's, let's, yeah, I'm sure
we'll talk more about that, butI know you've got one reason I
wanted to reach out to you andhave you on here.
Well, there's many reasons, butone of them I know you started
your new symmetry wellnesscoaching business and you've got
some fantastic videos andcontent on your Instagram page,

(05:34):
which I really applaud you fordoing that.
I think.

Carlos (05:37):
I think it's fantastic but just tell us a little bit
about it.

Eric (05:41):
Tell us about your, your new business and what it's all
about okay, so what I kind ofstarted.

Carlos (05:47):
There is a bit of like.
Well, initially, like I wantedto bring some of the stuff that
I would say like people like youhave exposed me to that I find
quite helpful.
And one of the things that I'vefound quite interesting in that
side of the education is likedon't, don't pain-splain people,
like don't give them all theneuroscience and all that,
because it's like they don'tfucking care, it's overly

(06:09):
complicated, they're not goingto be able to digest it, and I
mean this is, I'd say, probablymost important overall.
It's super boring to mostpeople like me and you nerd out
about it because that's the shitwe like, but for most normal
people they're like dude, Idon't even, like you said,
central sensitization, like I'mnumb, I don't know what, I'm not
listening to anything elsethat's coming out of your mouth.

(06:30):
And so when I was thinkingabout making content and kind of
like who am I gonna makecontent for and how am I gonna
like create it in a way that'sengaging, because there are a
lot of people making contentalong these lines, in terms of
like let's educate people, let'seducate practitioners, I kind

(06:51):
of wanted to go a bit more ofthe like let's educate the
general public, because theamount of people you can kind of
contact in terms of like thepractitioner area and they are
so set and they're sort ofbiases already and like their
self-fulfilling prophecies oflike well, I'm the greatest and
I'm gonna fix you, I was likeyou know what?

(07:11):
Like they're not that receptiveand there's a couple pages I
wish I could remember them.
I think it's like Steve Kerrcoaching.
That's probably wrong, butthey're more like fitness
influencers and what they do isthey make kind of comedic videos
on like weight training andstrength training and they sort
of myth bust around that and Iwas like man, this content's

(07:31):
great, like I actually enjoythis, and they slip in the
science, which is, I'd say, thebest part, so they're giving
people a lot of literal guidance, that's, you know,
science-backed.
I was like, well, how can I spinthis to fit kind of the stuff
that I want to communicate?
And so the symmetry wellnesscoaching page is meant to be a

(07:53):
bit of an amalgamation of likethe manual therapy, pain science
stuff, a bit of like thestrength conditioning,
rehabilitation stuff, and thenat some point they'll probably
be a bit of nutrition, because Ido love the nutrition space and
it's another space.
That's very like holy shit,there are polar opposites of
what's good and what's not, andwhat's killing you and what's

(08:14):
not killing you, and everythingshould be alkaline, and it's
just like oh my god, this isincredible.
Like people are just gettingspoon fed a bunch of stuff that
you know isn't the best, and soI'm hoping to build a bit of a
platform where I can touch oneach domain and really provide
stuff that's educational butalso people won't be bored to
death watching.

(08:35):
But it's been an interestinglittle bit because, like, I have
a personal Instagram account Iactually didn't make it, a
previous partner made it for meand there's one photo of me.
Like I don't do social media, Ihate social media.
So it has been an interestingsort of hey let's, let's try

(08:57):
this out yeah.
I think it's, I think I love youwhat you've done there.

Eric (09:01):
I found I enjoy videos.
They're kind of like an AaronKubal-esque kind of, you know,
bringing in the science with abit of humor, and they're very
creative, but what I, what Ifind with them, with what you've
, the content you put out there,though, is that it's there's
not our RMTs doing that kind ofwork.
It's usually physios or chiro'sor nutrition or fitness people.

(09:24):
You don't really see like RMTsdoing that kind of video or that
kind of content, because thestuff that you're doing is
you're just, you're just likebold and you're like this is a
big fucking waste of time.
I think you said in in one aboutstretching or something you
said so much yeah yeah, and Ithink, I think it's great.
I mean it's not me foreverybody, but it's, it's, it's

(09:44):
super entertaining.

Carlos (09:46):
Yeah, that's yeah, great to hear.
Yeah, great to hear.
No, it's definitely somethingthat I totally agree there with
it.
It is more physios or strengthconditioning coaches that are
kind of putting that stuff out,and but it's it is the stuff
that I enjoy the most.
So I was like why don't I justdo this?
And you know, the title of RMTis I mean, so many people have

(10:09):
these titles and it's kind oflike, well, what actually like
relevant experience do you bring?
Or like what experience haveyou developed through the years?
And so I'm kind of just like,yeah, the title might be a bit
different to what is morecommonplace, but like I don't
know who gives a shit and I havea background in all these other
domains and so why not?

Eric (10:25):
yeah that's great, do you?
What kind of engagement are yougetting with your stuff?
It's pretty new to you, isn'tit actually?

Carlos (10:33):
been.
It is pretty new, it is reallynew.
It's been pretty good,especially in the beginning.
I mean, a lot of that was justbecause I think initially people
who know me personally werelike what the hell is this guy
doing?
Like like people from myhometown or people who've known
me for a couple years like wait,what are you doing?
This is crazy, dude.

(10:53):
This is so funny.
Like I can't believe you'redoing this.
So that got a lot of engagementbecause people were like sharing
and liking and all that stuff.
Now not as much, but it's stillpretty decent.
Like I think every reel getsaround like 500 views, which I
mean, hey, I need to be betterwith like my insights and really
like I guess you could saypushing that to push more

(11:14):
engagement and page growth.
But that's something that Ithink now that I've found the
flow of like I've establishedthe habit, because my goal was
like three reels a week or threeposts a week, now that that's
feeling a bit more easy andmanageable, I'm gonna start
diving into getting a bit moreengagement and tracking those
metrics.
I'll probably reach out forsome help, I think, because it

(11:34):
is I don't know, it's a domain Iknow nothing about.

Eric (11:37):
Yeah, I moved to, I didn't have an Instagram account, I
don't think until COVID times Iwas like, no, I'm Facebook, but
I'm as a generation of like youknow where everybody my age was
on Facebook and that's all, andno one used Instagram, but I
sort of I'm currently onFacebook at all anymore and I
just use Instagram.
Well, I shouldn't say just, butI use it primarily and I find

(11:57):
it's way better for engagementand for getting your stuff out
there, like I get more sales andmore shares and likes on
Instagram than I do on otherplatforms have you thought about
the TikTok?
Or no.
Yeah but no.
Yeah, I thought about it, butno, it's just one more thing to

(12:18):
do.

Carlos (12:19):
I love people like oh, if you want to get.

Eric (12:21):
You want to get out there, get your name out there, get
your face out there.
You gotta go to TikTok.
I'm like, yeah, but it's just,there's only so many hours in
the day and unless I hired asocial yeah, sure, which I then
I'll be forced to put out tonsof content, and you know it's
like it's sometimes.
It's a grind sometimes whenyou're trying to think okay what

(12:41):
am I gonna put I?
should put something out there,you know.
And then you, just some of you,put stuff out there.
It's great, and sometimes you,you put something out there you
just didn't even think about andit gets like, you know, 2000
views.
And another time you, you putall this time and energy into it
yeah well, you know, I don'tunderstand like there's science
and the right.

Carlos (12:58):
Yeah, that is is really difficult.
The one thing that has.
I've had a couple calls withpeople that I guess you could
say are who would be good,people that give me guidance in
the social media, like growthspace, and a lot of them do just
say that TikTok is quitevaluable for the algorithm.

(13:19):
Like it's more predictable interms of like that video did
well for X, y and Z.
Now let's like recreate thatcontent where Instagram's
algorithm is a bit different.
In that way it's not, as Iguess you could say, good in
simple terms, so it can be a bitmore indecisive on.

(13:40):
Like the feedback.
It's like well, why did that dowell?
Like that kind of actuallydoesn't seem to make sense.
Like, in my opinion, seems likea poor quality video where the
content was kind of just likehey, I needed to get something
out, so I put that togetherreally quick, whereas apparently
TikTok gives you a lot more ofthe specifics.
Like that did well.
This is why, and then what alot of people have told me is

(14:04):
use TikTok is kind of your liketest subject field and then you
use the good stuff on Instagrambut, like you said, another
thing to do, another thing tomanage, which sounds like an
absolute headache right now.

Eric (14:17):
Yeah, some people love it.
Some people have the energy forit Not me, not me, yeah.
One of the.
Actually, I think my secondmost popular video I ever had on
Instagram was one was one whereI was like telling everybody I
was like suffering from shingles, which was the most random
video, at like 900 views of itor something.

Carlos (14:37):
It's crazy.
People love watching otherssuffer.

Eric (14:42):
I was just an agony and I was like I don't know, let's
just tell people, let's justtalk about it.
And then you know the amount ofmessages and stuff I got was
like, oh, this is funny, sopeople want to see me suffer.
Okay, that's good to know.

Carlos (14:53):
Wait, did people reach out to like just learn more
about it?
Or they just kind of hey, Ihope you're doing well.
Like what was that engagement?
Like that's a bit that is odd,though, actually.

Eric (15:03):
What I find often with the stuff I put out there is you
will get some people comment,but I will if it's a popular
thing like that.
I get so many DMs from peoplethat are like you know they'll
ask questions, like clinicalquestions about like oh well, if
someone comes into CV, you knowwhat can you do, and I'm like
don't touch them because theydon't even want like to stay
away from me.

(15:23):
You know, I had a few of those,yeah yeah, I was like I'm
contagious.
I'm like well, no, because it'slike the chicken box virus is
like living in my spinal nerves,like a lot of people just
didn't know what it was andtried a lot of questions about
that kind of stuff.
So, anyway, it's just, it'sinteresting, it's funny how
those things all work.
Yeah, yeah, I'd like you totell us a little bit about just

(15:47):
some of the content you have onthere.
Like, a lot of it is mythbusting, right, and I've done a
series of episodes where peoplehave talked about myth busting
and I think it's alwayspersonally.
I feel it's an important thingfor us to call out the BS,
because you know people deserveto have higher value care that's
not based on falsehoods.
So tell us a little bit aboutsome of the some of the things

(16:08):
you put out there and why you'vechosen certain topics.

Carlos (16:13):
Okay.
So I think one of the like, oneof the overarching themes, is
people have limited time and alot of people want to better
their health and wellness and so, with that space being so
controversial and so muchmisinformation also out there,
it's like how can people get thebest results for the best bang

(16:34):
for their buck?
And so when I'm thinking aboutcreating a video, I'm kind of
like okay, what's a common themethat people are like oh, like
the stretching week, of thestretching theme of this week,
everything sort of been builtaround like hey, you're doing a
30 minute stretching warmup tolike prevent injury, like that's
your intention, which is great,but you're probably just

(16:55):
wasting 30 minutes.
And if you're short on time andyou're like trying to get a
workout in, like just get sweatyfor five and then start your
workout and just build up tothat.
So I'd say most of my contentis built around the like how can
we get you the results the mostefficiently?
And, yeah, stop spending timein areas that aren't paying

(17:17):
dividends and won't paydividends.
That's kind of like what I liketo think about when I'm going to
try and get a message or cross,and aside from that, it's, I'd
say, a lot of like what clientstell me or ask questions about
and what their assumptions are,or what they're told previously
from a different healthcareprovider.

(17:38):
That stuff's always comedicbecause you're just kind of like
shit.
Like a doctor told you thatlike now I got to compete with
this guy who's got like 12 yearsof school and well, that's
tough.
I mean, hey, like I'm takingfacts from people who have like
30 years of education andresearch, so I'm just the
middleman.
Like don't freak out at me.

Eric (18:00):
Don't shoot the messenger.

Carlos (18:03):
Yeah, yeah, don't shoot the messenger, but I'd say yeah,
though, like anotheroverarching theme would be I
really want people to feelbetter, and a lot of people just
feel better when they move, andthat regarding mental health
also.
So I think that's one of theaspects from like my previous,

(18:24):
like training, strengthconditioning stuff that I always
kind of try and bring in.
It's like what's the minimumtherapeutic dose that you can do
to like feel better or losebody fat in a healthy manner,
like we don't I also.
I'm not really trying to nichedown to like, hey, you want to
have a six pack.
It's more like, hey, why don'twe get you moving?

(18:45):
Cause you'll feel good and ifyou give a shit about that, I'm
sure at some point your bodycompositional change, but like
who don't even think about that?
Like who really cares?
Right now?
We're just trying to get youfeeling better and being more
capable in your life.

Eric (19:04):
Yeah, yeah, I think it's great, and so are you, the
people that you're, that you'regoing at, or clientele or people
you're trying to educate.
You said it's mostly the likethe public rather than other RMT
.
Is that right?

Carlos (19:20):
Yeah, definitely more the public than other RMTs.
I just kind of think that if we,if I, can kind of help educate
the mass, the masses, if theplatform grows, they'll be able
to maybe identify more bullshitthan trying to change other
people's minds, as thepractitioners who, yeah, are

(19:44):
more, are more caught in theirself biases of oh, I do this and
I help people, or you knowtheir own beliefs and opinions,
where I think the public is abit well, they are a bit more
malleable, if I'm honest, that'swhat I kind of get from them,
and if something speaks to them,they kind of lock onto that.
And I think that's where I'mtrying to just be like hey, this

(20:06):
is simple and it's notcomplicated and it also makes
sense.
Like you could show this toyour five year old, maybe bleep
the fuck.
But your five year old wouldprobably be like oh, like that
does make sense, mommy, andthat'd be kind of the end of
that.
And it's like, if your fiveyear old can understand this
versus, hey, I'm aligning allthese things and all these sub
luxations and stuff like that,which would just be kind of like

(20:28):
what the hell, then I thinkthey'll kind of really catch on.

Eric (20:33):
I agree with you.
I think it's a great idea toeducate the public because and
there was some there's somegreat research out there that
looks at.
You know, if the public wasmore educated about things like
pain and disability and whatnot,then the general idea is that
it would reduce healthcare usage.

Carlos (20:55):
Oh, no doubt, yeah, okay .

Eric (20:56):
Yeah, which goes along with with your line of thinking
too.
Right, like if if someone goesin to see somebody because
they've got back pain and thepublic knows like yeah.

Carlos (21:04):
I might got back pain.

Eric (21:05):
but you know, whatever, I'm not worried that I've
herniated a disc, I'm notworried that, like it's, I'm out
of alignment or whatever.
I just need someone to.
You know, give me someexercises or give me some
massage or something to help itfeel better.
Then they're not going to go inthere and show up and they're
going to be able to call outwhen someone's like you need to
see me three times a week forthe next six years and it's

(21:26):
going to cross and you canprepay now and it's going to
cost you $300,000.

Carlos (21:30):
Whatever you know like, that line is always crazy.
Red flag number one yeah.

Eric (21:39):
So I think with the, if the public has a better
understanding, then, yeah, theyprobably like that doesn't make
sense.
That's not what I've heardbefore, but you are right, it is
hard to change therapist mindsbecause so much of us are stuck
in our own biases and we haveour own.
Everybody's got them.
But yeah, I've been at theeducation stuff for a lot of

(21:59):
years now and I still I'm alwaysamazed when how many people in
every course I teach that theythere's some of the things I
talk about they've never heardof before.

Carlos (22:12):
And that always blows my mind what do you find in your
courses, like, what do you findin your courses are the
percentage of people, if thereare any that are when they kind
of they finish or they're done.
You kind of do a bit of a checkin, you're like, ah, they're
like, they're just, they'resticking with their ways and
that's that.

Eric (22:35):
It depends, I would say, over time.
So as, like all of us,hopefully we get better and less
shitty at the things we do themore we do it.
I would say early in my daysteaching, I would say, you know,
it was probably, I would sayprobably, I made a difference,
for 25% of people positive and75% of people I probably just
pushed away further because Iwas not very good at

(22:57):
communicating my, my content.
I would say now, I mean stilltrying to get better.
The amount of people that don'tchange, I would, or let me say
this, I would say it's very rarethat somebody admits that they
won't change, that they, thatthey're happy in their way.

Carlos (23:18):
That's a good point.

Eric (23:19):
But I would say that probably you're probably about
25% of people would, I wouldimagine, would go away and just
not take anything from thecourse because they're just like
nope, it's too challenging.
But I've really changed mymessaging on in the last few
years to try and make it lessthreatening and more all
encompassing.
Rather than me like, ratherthan just spending so much time

(23:40):
busting myths and calling shitout, it's more about, like,
looking at the similarities,what we all do, and trying to
bring that all together andyou're like a common narrative
and common understanding.
Because if I go and tellsomebody like Prenus sacred
doesn't do what you think itdoes, it's garbage, they're, and
they that's how they've beenpracticing for 20 years there's
no way they're going to listen,they're, they're, they're going
to shut down everything I say.

(24:02):
But if I say you do thatapproach and obviously it's
working for people because youhave a full practice for 20
years, what are some of thethings that can explain why that
works, based on things we'vetalked about?
And then they'll kind of bringin some of the things about,
like all the contextual effectsand the, the, the, the, feel
good, touch in a meaningfulmanner and you know the other,

(24:26):
like the therapeutic kind ofenvironment that they're in and
they can kind of bring that alltogether.
And so I'm like but your touchisn't doing what you think it's
doing, but it doesn't mean it'snot helping this person and so
kind of flipping that script tobe like, can you just change a
little bit, maybe how you'recommunicating this?
If, when it, if the personwants to know, don't make up a

(24:48):
story.
I found that has a lot.
Yeah, it's way way betterengagement and I don't.
I no longer get threatens,threatening messages after
courses.

Carlos (25:02):
Well, I'll just say never, rarely yeah yeah,
actually, I guess initially itwas like their backs are up
against the wall and they, theyjust felt, yeah, they just felt
attacked.

Eric (25:13):
Always, always right all the time.
Yeah, it was like that.
And you know, I've had a fewoccasions in the last couple
years when I ventured thefurther east.
I ventured, I've had morepushback, but I think it's just.
I think the, the, the messagingand just kind of the general

(25:35):
information that's out there inNBC is kind of spreading to
Alberta, to Saskatchewan,Manitoba, you know, Ontario,
it's kind of things thatinformation is getting out there
.
But you know, if it's hard tofault anybody, I mean I'd like
to blame people for, not forbeing lazy and for not paying
attention.
But to be honest, if you livein a small town and you know on

(25:55):
the Atlantic coast and you don'thave social media and you're
like one of only two therapistsin your little town and you
don't, you don't go on theinternet very much other than
did me to email your friends orfamily, you know, are you going
to be that engaged and trying tokeep up with all the latest
stuff?
Probably not, Because itprobably doesn't matter to you,

(26:20):
and so sometimes I have to getmyself out of my like ego of
thinking that, like everymassage, therapist needs to know
all this stuff, otherwisethey're going to destroy the
world.
That's not true.

Carlos (26:33):
Yeah.

Eric (26:34):
Yeah, yeah, so anyway.
Yeah, I can't remember theinitial question was, but anyway
, there's the answer after.

Carlos (26:44):
That was perfect.
That was perfect, that'sperfect so yeah.

Eric (26:48):
so one thing I was going to I want to ask you because,
like you know, a lot of thecontent you put out there is
kind of challenging some of thestatus quo what's it like with
your colleagues?
Like, are most of your RMTcolleagues like, are you guys
all pretty much on the same pagewith you know the pain, science
, evidence based stuff?

Carlos (27:05):
I would say no, not all of them.
The one thing that I alwayskind of find interesting and I'm
sure you can speak to this,almost similar to that last
question of how many people kindof take what you say and then
completely use it allencompassing is the aspect of

(27:26):
how people kind of still pickand choose what they want to
identify with in terms of, I'dsay, like the pain science and
what they're kind of like.
I'm still going to stick withmy ways.
When I just for when people arekind of speaking like that in
terms of oh okay, maybe they'relike, yeah, I'm not getting rid
of adhesions, but they stillkind of maybe give the

(27:49):
craniosacral spiel of like hey,that's what I'm doing here.
I always find that interesting,so I'm like I'm just going to
let them be and I hope, asthings progress, they'll keep
climbing that ladder.
I mean the other side of this.
I'm very interested in business.

(28:11):
I have a big passion forbusiness and sort of like
entrepreneurial sort of journeythat I want to continue pursuing
.
And the other side of it is, tome it's almost it's quite makes
me quite curious, because I'mlike I feel like some people
they don't necessarily evenbelieve what they're saying, but

(28:32):
they are speaking to theiraudience and they're like
product positioning is like, hey, I, this is who I am, this is
who I am, this is what I do, andthat's just the way they almost
market.
And I don't know if that'sworse or what, because in one

(28:52):
sense I'm like I speak.
Like when I used to work at abigger clinic I was like man,
like I speak to these peopleevery day, like they seem quite
intelligent, like they must kindof know what's going on.
They must have some skepticism,because in the back office we
talk about other things in lifewhere it's like, oh okay, like
you know, you're not a completekook, like you know, you kind of

(29:16):
got some stuff in your headhere.
But then the way they stillcommunicate with clients about
certain things and what they'redoing, it's like way down, that
that rabbit hole, and I'm justlike that doesn't add up to me.
So I find those people thetoughest, because, yeah, there's
some people that are just crazyand I'm like, all right, you're
crazy, that's cool, like Irespect that, you do you.

(29:39):
But the people who are, I think,more knowledgeable than they
lead on or what they communicateto clients, that's where I just
have a tough time almost evenapproaching them because I don't
really know what to say,because I don't want to be like
hey, I think you're smarter thanthat.
And why are you playing dumb?

(30:03):
Because I feel like that couldbe taken quite negatively, of
course, which is fair, but theother side of that, like I was
saying in the beginning, was youknow how much of this is that
business aspect, that marketingaspect, and hey, I'm playing a
role, or this is my persona inthis space, and people seek out

(30:26):
what they feel comfortable withor where they identify, and so,
like I mean we could put that inscience terms as, like the
therapeutic alliance and like,hey, I like people who speak my
language, so I'm going to seethis person.
I really wish they would justkind of come around a bit more
with what you were saying andhow they do explain things.

(30:47):
I think that would be a lotmore valuable.
It's like, hey, yeah, this isthe context that I kind of like
provide therapy under, but thisis just more so because you
understand the language and wecan speak together in a way that
makes sense to you and makesense to me.

(31:08):
But hey, I'm not realigningyour chakras.
Like I'm saying I'm not sayingchakras, like I'm saying every
day, it's more just like, yeah,this is making you feel good and
yada, yada, yada.
So it's always a tough subjectto really breach with with other
people because, yeah, it's,it's always interesting on how

(31:30):
they take it and sometimes it'sfunny, I'm sure, as you've
experienced the oh, whoa waitreally.
And then you're kind of like,oh, you were just waiting for
someone to maybe give you a bitof a green light to be skeptical
.
And then they're like, oh wait,this isn't like I kind of
always wonder, but I didn't knowwhat to do and I didn't know
what to say.
And it's like, oh shit, you'reon board like, fucking, read

(31:52):
this, read this, like watch acouple of these YouTube videos.
And then, like two weeks,they're like like I'm so glad
you gave me that.
Because those people they kindof I think they reach a point of
disinterest and sort of theyjust they don't, they don't have
any passion anymore becausethey don't believe in what

(32:13):
they're doing.
And I mean to relate this againto sort of the business side of
things, like sales.
A massive part of sales isspeaking with conviction, and if
these people are trying tobuild a therapeutic alliance and
help someone and they'respeaking with this like, uh, you
know it's.
I think we're making you feelgood, like the people on the
other end of that.
On the other side of that room,another chair is going to be

(32:34):
like this person doesn't evenbelieve a word.
They're fucking saying like I'mnot going to get any help here
and it's not their fault, justdon't know.
So yeah, it's alwaysinteresting.

Eric (32:46):
It's so easy to market certainty, though, and that's
why there's such a.
It's so attractive to havethose, those, those stories
where you're you're fixing oryou're releasing or you're
balancing or whatever it is.
You might, you might work onyour, because it brings people
back, because it gives themsomething tangible to hang on.
Yeah, and it's true, like thelook at the evidence.

(33:07):
The evidence suggests that youknow, when we're dealing with
pain, there is no certainty.
It's so uncertain.
And so often times, if you wantto be honest and ethical and you
speak to a client and you say,yeah, you know what, we, we can
help you feel better.
Maybe we can't really figureout why you hurt, but we, I
believe that you hurt.
Let's try some touch and somemovement and let's try and do a
few things here, just see if wecan make you feel better.

(33:29):
But I've ruled out any redflags, so I'm pretty sure you
know you're just in pain andthat's like oh, I mean I just
heard we don't really know why.
Like, oh, okay, like it can bereally uncertain.
That can make people feel, Ithink, if delivered in a way
where, if you aren't convinced,like you said, if you're not
convinced in what you believeand you don't communicate that

(33:53):
well to the person, then they'renot going to buy in.
And, and that's the key, Ithink that the difficult thing
with being like, say, you know,air quotes, evidence based is
that we can't give solid answersbecause we don't have them.
But we have to let people knowthat it's okay and certain and
that's and that's not really assexy and as exciting as being

(34:14):
like come in for these number ofvisits, I'm going to realign
your, your fashion system, andthen you're going to be good to
go.
People can buy, they can grabon to that.

Carlos (34:23):
Yeah, One of the things that I've actually now started
doing to place a little moreconviction in kind of the
therapeutic process is sayingsomething along the lines of
like okay, this is what we'regoing to try, this works for
people.
We're going to see how it makesyou feel.

(34:44):
And then I place a bit of thatlike positive placebo, Like I
think it's going to make youfeel better.
So let's try this with someconviction, Like whatever that
you know therapy or home care is, and it's like we're going to
do this, I think it's going tohelp.
And then they come back andthey're either like, oh, that
helped, that's awesome, that'swhat I needed to get fixed.

(35:05):
And I'm like, who knows, butit's helping.
So who gives a fuck?
So like let's just keep doingthat and we'll just scale that
in whatever area that is andwhatever it's helping you.
So maybe it's like gradedexposure with resistance.
It's like, oh, that's helpingme a lot.
It's like, great, Well, that'shelping you.
So who cares about anythingelse?
Like let's just keep hammeringthat until it doesn't work.

(35:28):
And then the other side of thatis when they come back and
they're like yeah, that wasn'tit, Like that didn't help me at
all or it made me feel worse.
I'm like oh normal, Some peopledon't like that.
I think this is what might helpyou.
Let's try this, because thenthey start to catch on with the
like it's not a one fix foreveryone approach and they

(35:50):
usually people realize they canfind another area in their life
where that makes a lot of senseand they can kind of find common
ground there and they're likeoh yeah, like that works for
Kathy and James in like thisarea or this domain of their
life.
But it didn't work for me and Ihad to try other things and
it's like, yeah, same thing,Like we just got to find what
works for you, but somethingwill start making you feel a bit

(36:11):
better.
And when we find that, that'swhen we just keep hammering that
tree, because until it stopsmaking stops giving you that
progression, and then I findlike I can speak with more
conviction and they can havemore of a trust in their
relationship with me.
Because initially it was sortof like oh yeah, we'll try all

(36:33):
these things and you know thereis really no answer because we
don't know and hopefully one ofthese things sticks and it's
more just like no, I'll see youagain in two weeks it worked,
didn't work great.
Like reassess and like, let'sjust keep going.
And then they also don't feel.
I think people then also theydon't feel as much and they're

(36:55):
like, hey, you're trying to sellme, because if someone has,
like I would say, a bit ofskepticism or education in
general, they appreciate thelike oh, I don't really know,
but we're going to figure it outand we'll keep trying.
If they're like, oh, that's,that's like a real person, Cool,
let's keep going.
I trust this person now.
Versus the like okay, it's notworking, it's making me feel

(37:19):
worse.
It's like, no, you just haven'tdone it enough.
Like keep doing it.
It's like, well, I don't wantto keep doing it.
It's like, no, no, no, you justgot to keep doing it.
And then they're just like whatthe fuck's that about?

Eric (37:30):
So yeah, I mean what you said there too goes in.
It's consistent with a largebody of evidence, too right,
which suggests that you knowtreatments that are performed in
a positive context and toperform better when we're
dealing with, like MSK pain.
So you know we're not lying topeople.
But if you're like, yeah, likethat's where your clinical

(37:50):
experience is so important andyou say, well, I've people with,
I've seen people like thisbefore with like yourself, and
you know we've tried thesethings and they tend to work
pretty well.
So let's just go, let's, let'stry this a few times and and see
, see how this works and see howthis progresses.
And, yeah, and if people, ifpeople believe you and if they,
if they like you and they do thethings that you, you, you guys,

(38:11):
work on together, then they'reprobably going to feel better
more often than not.

Carlos (38:16):
Yeah, totally, no, totally.

Eric (38:20):
Well, you've one thing you talked about you mentioned
earlier was this kind of goeswith all this stuff we're
talking about.
Was you talked about youryou're really interested in like
this kind of entrepreneurialambitions.
You're really keen on that.
Tell me a little bit more aboutabout that, because I know last
or last time we spoke on zoom Idon't know when that was six
months a year ago you werelooking about buying a clinic

(38:42):
and I was like that's thestupidest thing you could do.

Carlos (38:46):
Yeah.
So tell me, tell me what, tellme more about you're going to
get me to do stuff, though Ilove all this kind of stuff.
So, yeah, I mean a different, adifferent area, I guess, of
conversation.
But I I've just started toreally enjoy business and I like
the multifaceted aspect of itand how it's.

(39:10):
Yeah, there's so much involvedin in like, hey, marketing,
sales, like building a team, andI don't know something about
that really speaks to me.
And so I have like a businessmentor.
He's actually like one of myreally good friends and he's
kind of always pushed me to belike hey man I think I mean not

(39:31):
me, because I don't know,everyone's got a lot of self
doubt but he's like hey, likeyou're good in certain areas,
like I think you should kind ofput more time into here.
And when I was younger, he kindof was, you know under the wing
and like hey, read this, dothis, like you're progressing.
And I'd say maybe about a yearago, two years ago, kind of
almost a bit before we spokeabout the clinic thing I was

(39:53):
like I really like this idea ofbuilding a business and and not
so much going down the like Iwant to be an employee, like I
really want that journey of I'mgoing to learn a bunch and so
many different areas, and that'swhat's like really stimulating
to me.
I really I enjoy hard work, butI also like learning a lot.

(40:15):
I need to be sort of stimulatedin that way, and that
entrepreneurial kind of thing ofbuilding a business is
something that really speaks tome, as long as I can provide
value to a bunch of people andhelp them in a certain way.
And one of one of the mindsetsthat I'm really in right now is

(40:38):
it's just like you just got toreiterate, reiterate and learn
more and more and more.
And there's so many people inthat entrepreneurial space who
are, like now, massivelysuccessful, but they started way
out in left field and you'd belike, how the hell did you get
from there to here?
And it's like, will they justone persistence?
You like you just persistenceand you just continue chipping

(41:00):
away but you're not really goingto know.
And so there's this likemassive lack of, I would say,
security in a sense.
But you really just have totrust the process, and that's
kind of something that I'm juston board with right now and I
think it's a really good time inmy life and the past year was a

(41:21):
bit of a lot of conversing withpeople that I trust quite a bit
and like, hey, like should Itake this road because I want
what it could potentially giveme in terms of freedom and
flexibility and enjoyment andsort of fitting my work to
passions.

(41:41):
But it's not very secure, it'sterrifying and also like who the
fuck am I to think I'm going tobe, you know, the next whoever
in air quotes?
And that's not really like thegoal.
It's more just, I want the, Iwant that experience in my life.

(42:04):
And so the clinic thing was thefirst kind of idea because it
was like, hey, this is my niche,like I should explore the idea
of of being a clinic operatorand then expanding and expanding
and having clinics and buildingthis like clinic as a brand.
And it was interesting becauseI was at the at a pool in

(42:27):
Brentwood Bay, the resort, withthat mentor guy and he was like,
hey, why don't you do that?
And let's crunch the numbersright here.
So we kind of crunch thenumbers and I was crunching the
numbers of things I kind of knewand had heard about the clinic
that I used to work at and I waskind of like these numbers are
a bit iffy, like this is.
I don't know how good thisreally is.

(42:49):
So then I was kind of like onhis side because he runs a
massive company, a CEO of astartup, and he's done quite
well, and so his like humble egowas like well, what I think is
there's people in this space whostart as healthcare providers
and then they just becomebusiness owners without any
previous knowledge and they'reengulfed in this world of wow,

(43:13):
there's a bunch of stuff that Ihad no idea about.
So they're undereducated inthat domain.
So it's really challenging forthem to figure things out when
they start out and there's a lotmore to it than they know and
they have to learn while they'rebuilding, but then they're so
worried about just stayingafloat that maybe that's.
He's kind of like I think thatmight be the reason why it seems

(43:34):
so challenging.
And that kind of did speak to mea bit and I was like, yeah,
that makes sense, because if Ijust started building a clinic
right now, I'd have no fuckingidea about like you tell me what
profit margin was back then,and I'd kind of be like, okay,
sounds good.
I should probably Google whatprofit margin is.
And I'm like there's no wayother people in the space aren't

(43:54):
, are just like oh yeah, profitmargin, like revenue, like fixed
overhead versus like liquidityand stuff like that.
Like they, I'm like, oh, theygot to be the same as me.
So I was, okay, I'm going toreach out to some clinic owners.
And so you were one of them andI ended up reaching out to like
probably I don't say eight to10 in total, but everyone said

(44:14):
the exact same thing as you.
Pretty much it was like thereisn't as much profit as people
think.
It's a lot more work than peoplethink, and you're always still
kind of working in the businessand on it, so your hours are
doubled.
And it was interesting becausewhen I heard that from that many
people also with like have had,like who have had a clinic for

(44:38):
everyone that I spoke to kind ofhad had a clinic for at least
five years I was like, okay,this can't just be down to the
healthcare provider anymore.
Like after five years they haveacquired some business acumen,
they have spoken to people whohave business knowledge and like
sought out resources or helpfrom people who know that area,

(44:58):
and they're still having theseproblems in a sense, like maybe
it's the market and not theperson anymore.
And so then I did more diggingand sort of more just research
and was like, wow, this isn't Idon't think this is the space to
kind of explore thisentrepreneurial thing in anymore
.
And that's kind of where Iended and now I'm exploring a

(45:21):
couple other opportunities andand sort of journeys.
But yeah, unfortunately thatwasn't.
It wasn't what I thought it wasand I don't think it's what a
lot of people assume.

Eric (45:32):
You're 100% right and I'm glad you decided to listen to
everyone's advice.
That it's, you know, if youcreate a clinic or if you want
to be an owner, right, whatyou're basically doing is you're
creating a place to work,you're creating a job and you
know there is, there is clinicowners out there that make money

(45:52):
, but usually they're large,large, large clinics and they
have, like management teams andthey've got, you know, a lot of
other people doing it.
But the majority of the clinicsare of a certain size, like
they're small, where it'susually a single owner operator,
maybe there's two.
Like me, I had a businesspartner and you're you're you're
both working in the business aswell as you're working on the

(46:14):
business, and even if you hire,you know, office managers and
some admin team and you try andyou know, basically pay others
to do all the stuff you don'twant to do.
It all eats into your profit,so you have to.
You're like, okay, well, howmuch totally working clinically.
There's you, only, there's onlyso much money you can work
because it's not scalable.
Right, and it was not scalable.

Carlos (46:36):
And that was the whole issue.
It was like, well, that was thewhole issue was like it really
wasn't scalable, like it just itjust wasn't.
And sure, it was like, okay, Icould go like massive enterprise
, scalable, but do I really wantto spend 15 years to like to
get to a place where I'm nolonger a part of the business,

(46:56):
working in the business or onthe business, and now I'm just
an owner with a cashflowproducing asset?
It's like no, I do not want tospend 15 years doing that.
Like I could find another areaof business and get to that
place in five.
I mean, hey, that's obviouslynot guaranteed, but it's just
like why would I put myself inthat, that in that journey or

(47:19):
position of, hey, you're signingup for like 15 years to maybe
get to this place, where why nottry three other things for five
years and one of them will hitin a lot more higher likelihood.
So it's just like that didn'tmake sense to me.

Eric (47:36):
No, that's brilliant, Carlos, and that's so true Every
clinic owner I've ever talkedto.
They don't really make a lot ofmoney.
Like the clinic doesn't make alot of money because, like you
said, it's not scalable.
So even if you aren't workingin the clinic and you've got all
your rooms filled, you know,seven days a week, you know the
reality is is your overhead andyour cost your business is

(47:58):
ridiculously some Victoria,where we are, it's really
expensive.
And then you know your wagesare expensive and those are just
going up and up and up for,like your office and admin staff
.
But then the thing is, too isthat you know the therapists
have a certain standard thatthey're like I.
You can't charge me that amountof rent because I could go
somewhere else and pay less.
So the market of our professionactually stops RMT clinics from

(48:22):
making a lot of money.
You would need to have a lot ofphysios, a lot of chiro's or a
lot of other people or kinesisthat are in there.
Where you could, they could seemore people and you could
charge them a higher percentage.
It just the numbers just don'twork very well for most places.

Carlos (48:38):
That's just the way it is, yeah, and, and I mean this
is the most like respectable waytoo, and I mean I can say this
because I'm also an RMT.
But man, rmts fucking suck toemploy Like I would not, like
that was the other thing.
I was like man.
All these RMTs are absoluteheadaches.
Like we're all just drama.
Like we want vacay, we want togive you less money as a clinic

(48:58):
owner and then make more andwork whenever we want and not
work whenever we want, and thenwe want more hours this week and
none the next week.
I'm like we're all justabsolute headaches to deal with.
Like I don't want to deal withthese people.
Like no, thank you.

Eric (49:15):
Yeah, like no, I'm not a clinic owner anymore, so I guess
I could say in my experience,yes, rmts were usually the ones
that I mean, that's my audiencebut RMTs were usually the ones
that were the hardest to to dealwith in terms of, you know,
hours, days that went to work,rental agreements way, way more
difficult.
But I, you know, like you said,the entrepreneurial journey,

(49:38):
right, I had these ambitions.
I'm glad I did it.
I mean, I owned that clinic for12 years and I sold my shares
last year and the clinic stillexists.
But I'm not there and I'm, youknow, I'm I'm way happier now
doing like the entrepreneurialstuff I'm doing now with the
teaching and the online stuffand all the other work and
things I do podcast.

(49:59):
It's so satisfying and what'sgreat too, is that I only answer
to me and I do have one oneassistant that I pay, a
part-time assistant that doessome of the you know behind the
scenes stuff.
For me it's so much nicer thatthe freedom of being an
entrepreneur right now,particularly with internet and

(50:20):
technology, like you like, foryou, right, with the stuff
you're doing, you probably don'tyou don't need to be in an
office necessarily all the time,right, if you're doing your
coaching and all that stuffright, yeah, yeah, yeah,
definitely not.

Carlos (50:34):
And like that I mean it's just, that was a other
thing too.
It kind of made me I mean wecould relate to something else
in terms of, like, imagine goingto medical school in the
fifties and it's like, hey, Ineed an answer.
Okay, go to the library and tryand find the textbook and then
try and find the chapter andthen try and find the page.
But like we are in thistechnological era, like it's the

(50:56):
perfect time to try and buildthe business, and it doesn't
really matter what business.
Like you have every resourceimaginable.
Like it's incredible, it'sactually just crazy.
Like why would you not want togive a certain amount of time to
being an entrepreneur?
When you have chat GPT, toliterally just answer, hey, like
how do I market for X product?

(51:18):
And it's like boom.
And you're like, great, now howdo I spin this to more of my
like target audience?
And it's just like it's insane,like it's the perfect time, and
especially for I mean, I'myoung, I'm, I'm 26.
So it's, I have no dependence.
It's like what else am I goingto do?
I might as well.

Eric (51:37):
You're a baby 26.

Carlos (51:40):
Yeah, I'm almost 20 years older than you, so that's
funny, you're still springchicken too, like no one's old
till they're like 65.

Eric (51:51):
At least I got 20 years, then I just turned 45.
I know I what, what I?
I rent somewhere, and so thisis one of those.
This is a totally non evidencebased statement, but I did read
somewhere that there's moremillionaires now, like within
the last I think within the last10 years from online like

(52:13):
people running online businesses, than there is in any other
industry.
I don't know if that's true, butit kind of yeah, thanks.
When you look at what's outthere and how much money people
are making in these weird littleniche markets and I know some
of the online business groupsI'm with like there's people I'm
like what you make money onthat.

Carlos (52:31):
And they're like oh yeah , I'm making like 50,000 dollars
a month.

Eric (52:34):
I'm thinking, holy crap.

Carlos (52:36):
You know, yeah, and I'm like which is, which is crazy?
The one thing that I'veactually found quite interesting
and maybe this will speak toyou is right now there's so much
push, there's so many likepersonal brands being created,
so like they build the businessaround themselves, right, and

(52:59):
initially, when I was startingthe content, I was going to kind
of do that and I was like, hey,I'll build more of a personal
brand, cause I'd say you have abit more of a personal brand too
, like it's your name and you'recoaching.
But I'm sure at some point thatwill potentially change.
But the thing with that isthere's going to be a point

(53:20):
where you don't want to maybe beso much in the business or be
the face of the business and youwant to take more time away
from the business with family orfriends or hey, whatever, more
flexibility.
And so that was the interestingthing that when I was talking
with my guy, jason, he was likewe could do that and that might
help you in the beginning a bitfaster, because you could sell

(53:43):
yourself a bit better, versustrying to build a bit of a brand
.
But he's like at some point youcould hire an operator to then
run the business, like if wetake the coaching business, and
then sure, you'd have to paythem and you could find a good
operator operator and compensatethem really well.
But like, in the grand scheme ofthings, let's say you're doing

(54:06):
it by yourself and you'reprofiting like 50 K a month,
like that's great, cool, you'reprofiting 50 K a month.
What would you rather haveProfit 50 K a month and work
like 40 hours a week, or profit30 K a month and work eight
hours a week?
And I was like shit, but 30 Kis more than enough money than I

(54:27):
do.
You know, I'll still help mymom and dad and like I'll live
lavishly because I'm not amaterialistic guy.
But you're telling me I'd workeight hours a week, like I'm
going to Thailand and then Bali,like that's, that's what's up.
And so I'm curious to kind ofsee what'll happen in like 10
years in the entrepreneurialspace and the business space
with like are people still goingto be building personal brands

(54:50):
or at some point where they'llbe more of a shift again back to
building these like brandempires so people can then again
transition?
Oh, and I mean like it's notthe hardest thing to just like
switch your trajectory and belike okay, you know the brand
name is still you, but nowyou're not the one as doing much

(55:12):
fulfillment, but it's.
It's going to be interesting tome to see, like if that does
start to switch back, becausethe social media marketing, the
technological age of business,is quite new and so in 10, 20
years, once these people havedone so well, they're going to
want to cash out in a sense.
So what are they going to doand how are they going to cash

(55:33):
out?

Eric (55:35):
The personal brand is.
What I've seen is yeah, you dohave.
The face of the brand is usuallysomeone's name, like for myself
, you know my, I'm a personalbrand, for sure, but the and I
think I think you're I wouldagree with what your guy, your
business mentor said is thatyeah, like it's good to set you
up for success because peopleknow who you are right and

(55:56):
you're associated with this,this, this brand or this image
and then but some of the peopleI've seen that have gone really
successful they keep that, keepthat.
I guess still there is stilltheir, their name, but they're
not doing hardly any of the work.
They're kind of the face of thebusiness, but the people doing
all the fulfillment, all thesales, everything is all like a

(56:18):
team around it.

Carlos (56:21):
And.

Eric (56:21):
I know they've done that, have been very, very successful
doing that because they'reselling their brand, but they're
not.
They're like, they're like,they're doing the eight hour, 10
hour week kind of thing.

Carlos (56:31):
Some weeks more, yeah, and that's definitely the,
that's definitely the play.
I think once people get to thatposition where like wow, I'm
doing so much, and then theykind of realize I can outsource
a lot of this work, then it'skind of, then it does become
irrelevant.
It's like hey, just find goodpeople to do the fulfillment and

(56:52):
you can do whatever you want.
But that does come with, Ithink, for a lot of people in
the beginning quite intimidatingto be like hey, like I'm no
longer going to do the salescalls, like I'm the best at
sales calls, like that's just myego, like I got to do the sales
calls.
No one can sell like me becauseit's my product.
And it's like, yeah, but youhave someone two months and you

(57:14):
also hire someone who has donesales for a 10, 20 year career.
They're probably going to bejust better at you, better than
you, so like that's fine.

Eric (57:24):
That's the biggest problem that I see in here when I talk
to other you know whether it'scourse creators or you know RMTs
that are personal brands orother people in other industries
that are personal brands isthat there's that point of like,
and I was I mean, I'm guilty ofthis too and it's like when do
I start paying for things to buytime so I can build the

(57:45):
business?
Right, it's a fine line Likewell, I don't have enough money
right now, I can't pay for thisperson to do this thing for me
over here, but if I pay for thisperson to do this thing over
for me over here, that's goingto give me more time to focus on
this aspect of the businesswhich I'm good at, which is
maybe your marketing or yourcontent creation.
So it's like when do you makethose decisions?
And that's the hardest part forpeople is like when do I pull

(58:07):
the trigger and when do I?
When do I take that?
I have the answer.

Carlos (58:12):
What's the answer?
So the answer is read the bookcalled buy back your time.
It literally answers thatperfectly.
Have you read it?
Do you know it?

Eric (58:26):
I've heard of it, I haven't read it.
I got a behind me here andpeople can't say I got a whole
shelf full of business books.
I've read most of them.
That one's not on it, but I'dhappy to read it.

Carlos (58:35):
I'm going to write it down so that it's great, because
one of the things that actuallyeven gives you is a formula for
how much you should spend onoutsourcing certain tasks, and
so what it is.
It's like you take your revenue.
I can't remember the exactequation, but you take your
revenue, you divide it bysomething I don't know, multiply

(58:57):
it by nominal whatever, andit's like, based off your
revenue, if you can find someoneto do X work for, you have $12
on up work.
You should pay that becauseyour time is more valuable on
skills that other people can'tfulfill yet, and you will get

(59:20):
more growth because you canspend more time in the areas
that do require you to spend thetime, even if that's just
ideating and thinking like, okay, what is the next step in this
business?
What is my vision?
Where am I going?
Because, sure, in the beginningwe do need to be frugal, but if

(59:41):
you can start outsourcing stuff, just for you to sit an hour a
day and be like, okay, this isgood, this is good, this is good
, what's next?
You have to have that time.
If you don't, you won't thinkof what's next and then you just
won't even grow.
So, as you know, it's just theinvestment that comes with
building a business.

Eric (01:00:04):
Yeah, and that's a huge thing, and the advice I was
given from a business colleaguewas you should outsource
whenever you're questioning ifyou should outsource.
If you're asking yourselfshould I outsource this, the
answer is yes.

Carlos (01:00:19):
That's good.
Actually, that is good For onereason or another.
It's like I hate doing thisshit.
Should I outsource this?
It's like, yeah, you hate doingthis shit, Just outsource it
yeah.

Eric (01:00:29):
I mean, and it's funny because, as time goes on, like I
you know in the last, now thatI'm you know, I'm not working in
a clinic anymore and 99% of mywork stuff I do is, you know,
rmt related, but it's moreteaching, or you know, coaching
and these kinds of things, andwhat I've found is that it's

(01:00:50):
funny how you start to you startto outsource more and more and
more things.
You don't realize how muchyou're actually like spending an
overhead, basically an overhead, paying things out, but you're
buying your time right, whereasbefore it was not uncommon for
me to do like a 50, 60 hour workweek, like I was working
ridiculous hours right, thatkids would go to bed and then
it'd be up all night, and thenI'd get up early in the morning.

(01:01:11):
I'd be working all day.
And then you're like this isunhealthy, like, and I felt
terrible and I was burnt out andmental health crises and all
kinds of terrible stuff.
And then it wasn't until I kindof like stopped, like
reevaluated things, outsourcecertain things, focused on what,
and got rid of stuff thatwasn't providing any.

(01:01:32):
I'm not saying I can say value.
I'm not talking monetary value,I'm talking about, like,
personal value as well.
And then you start to realizelike, oh okay, like you can you
know this is way healthier wayof doing things.
But grinding and doing all thisstuff, anyone's listening is
don't do it for too long.
You have to do it for a littlewhile, I think, but not for too
long.
The outcome is not good.

(01:01:53):
Yeah, totally Not good.

Carlos (01:01:55):
Yeah, not good Bumps or fire, hard core bumps or fire.

Eric (01:02:00):
No, well, this has been great.
We've totally like we totallywent off like on on
entrepreneurial stuff.
This episode will be more aboutbusiness than anything, but
that's okay.
I thought it was.
I really enjoyed this, I guessyou know.
Just one more question, causewe are kind of hitting the kind
of threshold of time for as longas these probably should be

(01:02:22):
what are you?
What are your feelings?
Cause you're relatively new andI've been doing a bunch of
interviews with relatively newtherapists.
I mean, you've been out forfour years but we'll put you in
a new category less than fiveyears.
Totally.
What are your thoughts with theRMT's educational system and,
you know, what kind of things doyou think needs to change to

(01:02:43):
make it more relevant to thereal world of clinical practice?

Carlos (01:02:50):
Yeah, based on your experience, only Like a couple,
yeah, a couple of things.
I just think they spend way toomuch time in certain areas.
Of course.
I mean I guess that's probablyeveryone's response, but I think
they should really spend moretime educating the therapists

(01:03:14):
and having them do things sothey have more, I would say,
like health and wellnessexperience.
They can speak to people in away that they can communicate
kind of the journey a bit better, cause they've kind of been
through whatever that journeylike entails for them.

(01:03:37):
It's kind of like hey, wouldyou rather go to someone who
specializes in weight loss,who's like obese but they have
some educational knowledge?
Or like the person who wasobese kind of went through that
experience, like got a littlehealthier and has the

(01:03:59):
educational experience Like,cause they can then empathize
with you a bit better.
They know the roadblocks thatyou're gonna hit and that you're
gonna experience, and like theycan just be like hey, this is
what worked for me.
Like it is only what worked forme, but like don't worry, it's
part of the journey, you willget there.
So I wish the schooling was abit more all-encompassing on

(01:04:20):
like hey, this is what makesyour body feel good, like this
is what you should do to move it.
Like, why do we not have astrength and conditioning class
where people actually work out?
And it's not like, hey, youneed to be an Olympic
weightlifter or you need to doan Ironman in a year?
Just like, three days a week,we're all gonna work out and

(01:04:41):
we're gonna like set some goalsand you're gonna learn what like
feeling uncomfortable in theweight room is if it's your
first time going there.
So then when your client comesin, they're like, hey, I wanna
feel a bit more physicallycapable as I'm getting older.
It's like, oh, well, then youcould get a gym membership and I

(01:05:01):
can help you with someprogramming there.
And it's like, oh, but I don'twanna go to the gym.
Like people are gonna look atme.
It's like, oh, no, I know howyou feel.
Like I was super nervous when Iwent, and that just applies to
all the other domains of likehey, someone who's experienced
chronic pain and stuff like that.
It's just.
I think we should be educatingpeople more on the experiences

(01:05:27):
of the clients that they'regonna see, so they can then help
them a bit better in that wayand meet them where they are and
understand that they're notjust gonna like flip a switch
and start doing their home caretomorrow with the six exercises
you provided.
Like that's just rarely, ifever, going to happen.

(01:05:51):
I still really think that a lotof the educational value of some
of the classes that I thinksome people would say they
should get rid of, like GenPath,like I think that's still very
valuable because you can speakto clients about things that
other healthcare professionalsspeak to them about and don't
have the length of time Likethat's a big one.
People will come in and saylike oh, I got my x-ray.

(01:06:12):
This is what it said and theykind of just said you're okay.
But I read it and it has allthese big words.
I have no idea what they meanand I Google it and it tells me
bad shit and it's like yeah,well, let's talk about that.
You're gonna be okay, kathy,like this stuff's normal.
So I think like that's veryimportant.
But some of the other stuff,even like I think like

(01:06:35):
orthopedic testing, could justbe practically dumbed down to
three weeks because the validityof a lot of those tests,
especially if someone's alreadyin a sensitized kind of they're
already having a sensitizedexperience with shoulder flexion
and we're gonna get them to dothe empty can test.
It's like, yeah, that's gonnahurt every fucking time.
Like so why are we likespending hours teaching about

(01:06:59):
the positioning of where thehumerus is, when it could just
be like, hey, put them into theposition.
If they contract against it andit's aggravating, then it's
probably more musculosenderness?
Like sounds good.
Now, what do we do?
Okay, well, we know what to dobecause we spent more time on
the like.

(01:07:19):
How do we communicate to them?
How do we talk to them aboutpain?
And then how do we actuallylike educate them on the therapy
and like going through thatjourney of getting them to feel
better with things that are intheir control, versus come see
me, come see me, come see me,because it's like the orthopedic
tests usually don't matter atall, but we spend three months,

(01:07:42):
even maybe six months, if Iremember correctly just like
learning them.
It's like who cares?
I don't think I've used one inlike four years.
It's like maybe a couple, likeI don't know, checking the ACL
or something like that.
But other than that, it's likeshow me what hurts.
Oh, that hurts, cool, yeah,let's get on with it.

(01:08:06):
I'm not gonna just do somethingto make it hurt more.
I'm like all right, like, oh myGod, what's wrong?
Why does that hurt?
It's like well, cause italready does.
Yeah.

Eric (01:08:17):
You're not, your experiences is not unique to you
.
Carlos, every arm T I talk to,they're like I never do
orthopedic tests, like it's sorare, it's not a common thing.
Totally Fresh in, yeah.
But I also think too that youknow there is value for them.
When there is value, butthey're not taught when to use
them, not to release, it's likeoh, you have a shoulder problem.

(01:08:39):
Here's all these tests you cando on the shoulder and I always
like to.
I always make a joke in mycourses.
I'm like, yeah, most orthopedictests are like the prove you're
not lying test, because ithurts when I flex my shoulder
right, okay, well, let's like.
You said like it hurts with likewhy would you get them to keep
doing empty can and resisted allthese things when they've

(01:09:01):
already shown you that it hurts,why would you keep provoking it
?
And if you read any of theusing the shoulders totally
right, any of the shoulderresearch, now almost all of it
says none of the tests arespecific.
Yeah, few of them are specificand most of them are just
provocative to a movement.
Well then, yeah, why do wespend six months in school on

(01:09:22):
them?
It's crazy.

Carlos (01:09:24):
Yeah, the only thing that I would actually really
love for them to add in is somesort of and I'm sure you hear
this from clients all the time,because I know I do and I know
other people do, but honestlysome sort of mental health
education where we can speak topeople in a certain framework,
because it is incredible howsafe people start to feel and

(01:09:49):
what they'll divulge in terms ofthings that they're going
through.
But I mean, as we know, thebiopsychosocial model of pain,
like psycho, like that'sliterally in the name.
We should have some sort ofeducation where we can sure we
don't need to be a therapist,but just a bit more of who knows

(01:10:11):
, maybe CBT or whatever, wherewe can just help people along
that journey.
And maybe we do have specificframeworks where it's like, oh,
you've had a physical traumaaltercation, like hey, that's
not our domain, like you shouldmaybe see a professional
whatever, but it's related tofear, of avoidance, of a

(01:10:34):
movement based off fear, andstuff like that.
I think we should be educated tobe like, oh, a bit more into
the psychology of pain and thisis why you're thinking that way
and feeling that way and that'snormal.
And what can we do about that,because a lot of people I know
they're quite timid even withthe motivational interviewing,

(01:10:54):
because it's sort of like isthat the blurred line that we
should maybe be tiptoeing on?
It's like that's crazy.
Come on like we're tellingpeople like you bought this and
we're worried about that, likethat's absurd.

Eric (01:11:08):
And that's the fear that always comes up, right Is that
if we learn about psychologicaltherapies, if we learn about
psychological frameworks andthen therefore, we may then
start to be psychologists or tryto work outside of our scope of
practice, and I think that'sabsolutely ridiculous.
That's like the argument sayingthat when you, if you teach

(01:11:34):
kids about drugs or sex, they'regonna then go do it right, so
it's best just to not talk.
It's like it doesn't work thatway right, like we know that the
more education people have, thebetter decisions they make, the
better their behaviors theychoose.
So, like, not talking aboutpsychology doesn't mean we're

(01:11:56):
gonna go be psychologists, butthat's the argument that we hear
, that's the feedback we get.
I'm like yeah, but why wouldyou apply that thinking to us,
when all the other educationalprograms out there for changing
or influencing behaviors say youneed to educate people about
these things?
You talk to kids about sex.
You talk to kids about drugs.

(01:12:16):
You talk to kids about alcohol.
You talk to kids aboutprejudice and racism.
You talk to kids about allthese things.

Carlos (01:12:20):
It doesn't mean they're all the time doing that.

Eric (01:12:23):
It's just like they're aware of it.
They have a healthyunderstanding of what this stuff
is.
Yeah, it's the logic for why wedon't have any type of I can
say behavioral science.
Education is something that Icould.
I'm just gonna shit on all thetime.
I could talk about that forever.

Carlos (01:12:43):
It doesn't make any sense.
Yeah, it doesn't make any sense.

Eric (01:12:48):
If you're aware of this stuff, I don't know.

Carlos (01:12:49):
That's a disservice to the people.

Eric (01:12:51):
Yeah, it is a disservice to people because really, when
you look at it, when you look atthe education and what we're
supposed to do is basicallyyou're just like they're just
meat and you just keep themfocused on the clinical
presentation.
But the clinical presentationof paying their back, they're
there because their back hurts.
But what about if we look atthe big picture of all the other
things that are going on, If weunderstood that, like, hey,

(01:13:13):
this person's got a lot of crapgoing on in their life right now
and their back hurts?
Well, we're not gonna counselthem about that, but maybe we
can recognize it and say, hey,you know what?
There might be an associationthrough these things.
Do you think you should go talkto somebody about it?
Whatever it might be, that'sgood healthcare.

Carlos (01:13:30):
Yeah, totally that would be good healthcare, it's like I
don't know, I could lose my.

Eric (01:13:36):
I could go off on that stuff forever.
So anyway, we should probablywrap this up for us.
So how can people reach you?
What's the best way if you wantpeople to get in contact with
you?

Carlos (01:13:49):
I'd say honestly, probably just through the
coaching page, Cermetru WellnessCoaching.
There you just DM me on there.
There's also like a link in thebio where you can book RMT
appointments if you're inVictoria.
And then there is a link to thecoaching page for the online
coaching stuff and that alwayshas like a free 30 minute

(01:14:11):
consultation.
So you can just kind of tell mea bit about what you're looking
for and we can see if you're agood fit and if not, I can
definitely refer you to someonewho is probably a better fit for
you than I am and the goal isjust to help people and get them
with the best person that's forthem.
So I'd just say throughInstagram, probably the best.
Most people have Instagram nowand yeah, Nice, nice.

Eric (01:14:31):
Well, thanks a lot, carlos .
That was a lot of fun today.
I really enjoyed that and I'dlike to get you back on again in
the future.
We can.
You know, I'm sure we couldtalk for hours about fun things.
Yeah, I'd love to come back.

Carlos (01:14:43):
I'll keep chatting forever.

Eric (01:14:44):
Thanks, Carlos, thank you for listening.
Please subscribe so you can benotified of all future episodes.
Purvis Versus is now availableto watch on YouTube, so if you
enjoyed this episode, pleaselike, subscribe and share to all
your favorite social mediaplatforms.
If you'd like to connect withme, I can be reached through my
website, ericperviscom, or sendme a DM through either Facebook

(01:15:07):
or Instagram at ericpervisrmt.
If you wanna reach Carlos, hecan be reached through his
coaching profile on Instagram,which is at Symmetry Wellness
Coaching.