May 6, 2025 • 60 mins
Head on over to my website. This includes a list of all my upcoming courses, webinars, self-directed learning opportunities as well as some helpful learning resources.
thecebe.com
Please connect with me on social media
FB: @ericpurvesrmt
IG: @eric_purves_rmt
YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@ericpurves2502
Would you like to make a donation to help support the costs of running my podcast?
You can buy me a coffee by clicking here
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Eric (00:08):
Hello and welcome to the Massage Science Podcast.
My name is Eric Purves.
I'm an RMT course creator,continuing education provider
and advocate for evidence-basedmassage therapy.
Thank you for being here and Ihope you enjoy this episode.
And I hope you enjoy thisepisode.
Hello, everyone, and welcome toanother episode of Massage
(00:31):
Science.
Today I'm here with Dr Mark.
Olson who is a massagetherapist and neuroscientist in
Sarasota, Florida.
Thanks for being here, Mark.
Just take a minute and telleverybody about you.
Mark (00:46):
Yeah, thanks, eric, thanks for being here.
Mark, just take a minute andtell everybody about you.
Yeah, thanks, eric, thanks forhaving me.
Yeah, so, as you said, I'm aneuroscientist.
I have a PhD from theUniversity of Illinois and I
studied neuroscience therebecause I was interested in what
people, why people are, the waythey are, what makes them tick,
and I don't know if you want togo into that part of it, or if
(01:14):
you wanted to, yeah, please.
Eric (01:14):
Actually, that was probably one of the things I
wanted to ask you about was yourkind of journey from like
neuroscience to massage therapy,body work.
I'm assuming you did your PhDfirst and then went into body
work.
Is that correct?
Yeah, yeah.
Mark (01:30):
I was not thinking about body work at all when I was
working on my doctorate, exceptthat, you know, occasionally
seemed like massage would be aneat idea and maybe a neat skill
to put in my back pocket forfun.
So yeah, I studied memory andattention and the visual system.
I did research on whether wecould track your eye movement
(01:56):
patterns to see if we could tellfrom your eye movement patterns
whether you recognized a placeor not.
And it was more accurate than alie detector test.
So anyway, I was in a verydifferent world, but I was
always interested in what makesus tick.
So I think massage is alsosomething that is a really good
(02:16):
way to find out what makes ustick too.
I don't know if a lot of peoplethink of it that way, but I
think of it that way Because youfind out a lot of things about
psychology, psychology andoneself.
Uh well, at least one couldthrough through massage.
So I went to hawaii aftergetting my phd and I thought,
well, I said I was going to takea class, so I'll take a class
(02:38):
and found out hey, this is, thisis great, I'll take some more
classes.
And so I became an mvp.
I became a licensed massagetherapist and started teaching
classes at lots of differentschools, and for a long time the
neuroscience and the massagetherapy kind of existed in two
different realms.
They weren't integrated.
(02:58):
Until I started training inaquatic massage therapy or
aquatic body work and I juststarted to realize, oh, there's
a lot of things going on herethat don't make a lot of sense
If what we're telling ourselvesabout body work is true, that
this doesn't seem to be abouttendons and muscles, that people
(03:21):
are having these psychologicalexperiences.
I'm having these psychologicalexperiences that don't make
sense if this is just about softtissue.
And so that's when myneuroscientific mind kicked in
and realized oh yeah, I know alot about all this material, and
so let's put it together.
And so that's what I've beendoing for the last decade or so,
(03:44):
is is blending them, which Icould talk about forever.
Eric (03:49):
Yeah, oh, we can, I'm sure we can, and we can, we can get
into that.
That's really interestingbecause it's what you see.
So in Canada and the U?
S, you know, we can talk aboutpolitical stuff here for briefly
, if you'd like to, in a minute.
But what we see in Canada is wesee the opposite stuff here for
briefly, if you'd like to, in aminute.
But what we see in canada is wesee the opposite.
Usually you see massagetherapists first and then they
pursue the academic realm.
(04:11):
They'll, they'll be like ah,you know what?
I like to be a massagetherapist, but I like research,
I like science and I and they,they will go do masters, phds
and then they will leave themassage profession almost
completely yeah and we see thatall the time.
There's like five I know of PhDsthat are that were RMTs in
Canada, so not a lot.
(04:31):
But I've met many like yourselfin the US who have a PhD.
They've got a doctorate andthey're a massage therapist.
But they did their academicfirst and then they became a
massage therapist.
So that's an interestingdifference between the countries
.
Mark (04:47):
Yeah, yeah, I mean, I don't know if I recommend one of
those routes more than theother.
Each of them has their pros andcons, yeah.
Eric (04:56):
Personally for me, I like the idea of like what you've
done, where you go and you getthis incredible education and
body of knowledge and ways ofthinking which you get through
graduate school.
I know my own experiences goingto grad school.
I completely changed how Ithink and how I think about how
I think you know and I'm sureyou could talk forever about
(05:18):
that too the but then you gofrom that into massage.
It really, I think, providesthat foundational education
where you can really askcritical questions and think
about things differently.
And, like you were saying, thisisn't about muscles, tendons,
joints, bones, the way wethought, yeah.
So I think that sets you up ina different way than going the
(05:43):
other route, where you have alot of unlearning to do.
Mark (05:47):
Yeah yeah, and I think that transition, you know, is
different in Canada because youguys have so many more
educational hours, so maybethere's less of a gap there than
there is in the States, becausethe education, you know, in the
states is so varied and in manycases so so much less than you
(06:07):
have in canada.
So, uh, you know to I meanthat's why I started teaching
all these anatomy classes,because I realized, oh, I mean,
I'm just a neuroscientist, Idon't, I don't, I'm not a
biologist, but I could teach allthese things better than what
I'm seeing, just because it'sbasic and it's, you know, in
(06:28):
many cases it's poor, so itneeds to be improved.
Eric (06:33):
So let's let's talk about, let's let's let's transition
from that to let's talk aboutyour work at the massage school,
cause you were a director andat the massage school in Hawaii.
Tell me a little bit about thattransition on that journey and
what you did differently in thatprogram from, let's say, the
status quo, what other peoplewere doing.
Mark (06:52):
Yeah, yeah.
So I started working with thisone massage school that I almost
immediately became the directorof, on Kauai, and it was a
great school and right from thestart I should just say that.
(07:12):
So the school, from thebeginning, had a more like
mind-body integration elementthan some other massage schools.
So some massage schools aremore focused, or?
maybe have a more medical kindof angle or something like that.
This one had more of abody-mind kind of integration
mindset, which I really lovedbecause that was much more in
(07:33):
line and easy to integrate withmy neuroscience background.
I came into the school saying,hey, let's take what you're
doing and let's add a wholebunch of neuroscience to it what
you're doing and let's add awhole bunch of neuroscience to
it.
But I but the, the directordied, um, that first year, and
uh, I was running it, and so itwas just up to me to, as as the
(07:54):
new director, to figure out whatto do, and one of the so there
were two elements to this.
One was this was a school that,even though they were doing this
really great body-mindintegrations, they're coming
from structural integration,which has a long history of
being based in this tissue-basedVASHA model, and I quickly
(08:18):
realized that this model was notaccurate scientifically, and so
I had a choice you know, thiswas kind of the brand, but I
wasn't gonna.
I wasn't gonna continue doingsomething that wasn't
scientifically sound.
So I, you know I made thechoice to just say we're going
(08:38):
to abolish all of that fasciabased mindset and we're going to
put the you to put the nervoussystem at the center of this.
So that was one element that Ichanged, and I changed that
first and then.
The second element was that thebody-mind integration was great
, but there were some aspects toit that were not
(08:58):
trauma-informed.
I would say we'rere-traumatizing, because they
were using some things that werefrom maybe like 20th century
thought, and now we've evolvedfrom that, we know better.
So I also decided to maketrauma informed a central pillar
(09:19):
of the school.
So there was this neuroinformed and trauma informed
aspect that basically held upthe entire program.
Eric (09:30):
One of the barriers that you see all the time is when I
talk to massage school directorsor owners is this fear of
change or they don't know how tochange because things have been
done the same way for so longStructural, patho-anatomical,
fascial-based ideas and thentrying to bring in a more
(09:55):
science-based, more neurosciencefocus.
I think you said you want toput neuroscience at the center
of the program, which I love.
That is exactly what confirmshow I feel about how I think
things should be done.
How was that received by theother faculty and the other
people in the school?
I'm very curious to hear that.
Mark (10:17):
Yeah, yeah, well, that's a lot of aspects of that answer.
So, um, well, um, there weredefinitely some who were, you
know, all thumbs up andinterested in like, yeah, let's,
uh, you know, let's follow thescience and let's um, you know,
(10:40):
let's do it right.
Uh, you know they were, theywere very supportive.
I had definitely had a lot ofsupport and I would say, you
know, basically all my corefaculty were supportive in that
process and there was there'sthe supportive in the like, I'm
with you as a human being, andand then there's the okay, but I
(11:04):
have to wrap my head around itbecause I've been thinking about
this other way and so you canbe supportive but still also
think in older terms.
So that's a little bit of aprocess of trying to think.
It's a paradigm shift.
It's not just adding anothernote on your slides.
So that takes a while.
(11:25):
I mean, it actually took me awhile.
Even even as a neuroscientist,it still took me a while to
figure out how to rethink about,you know, body tissue stuff,
because I, you know, I'm anexpert in brain stuff, but I, uh
, I was still thinking about,well, I mean, I'm not exactly
sure how knees work completely.
So you know, I'm learning thistoo, so let's you know, let's
(11:50):
figure out what's actually goingon.
And then the individuals whowere the students were totally
fine, like I just startedteaching classes with a
neuroscience center and theywere like, yeah, okay, great.
And I would say hey, by the way,if you were here, you know know
, a few years ago, we would havetaught that and they just kind
of looked at me like well, thatdoesn't make any sense, like it
wasn't any problem for newpeople to, but the problem was
(12:14):
trying to get the message intothose who had learned it an old
way, and so the most of thepushback that I got was from
past graduates who had learnedit a certain way and thought
that what I was doing was, youknow, something like blasphemy
and wanted me to recant orsomething like that.
I don't know if I really gotthat directly, but you know, it
(12:35):
was kind of.
There was a sense of that.
You know I was, you know, justsaying these terrible things
about fascia you know I was uh,you know, just uh saying these
terrible things about fascia,you know?
Eric (12:49):
that is so interesting because a couple things there
that I that really resonateswith me.
One of them was being that thestudents that were learning for
the first time were totally okaywith messaging because you that
was.
Their anchor now wasneuroscience, of course.
And then when you talk aboutother stuff like try and put in
(13:10):
like a fascial or tissue-basedmodel on top of that, it doesn't
make sense to them becausetheir anchor is neuroscience
exactly and then vice versa,those that had the anchor of um,
you know the, that fasciatissue-based model, and then
you're learning neuroscience.
They feel an attack or they feellike it's blasphemy I think it
might've been the word you usedand that is so interesting
(13:31):
because that's something that Iencounter all the time in the
work that I do is that when astudent learns the less wrong
approach, then they're able tothey hold on to that and then
they can progress, I think,easier into this more
neuroscientific mindset, so tospeak.
(13:55):
And one thing I studied in I mayhave said this in some of my
other episodes, I'm not sure Onething I studied when I did my
graduate work is we looked atsome of the barriers and
facilitators for the use ofresearch evidence in practice.
For massage therapists was thatbaseline education, that
(14:22):
introductory information thatthey got in their entry to
practice, shaped how they viewedtheir, their world and your
experience, which is there'sevidence right there of teaching
the school had that.
You experienced that same thing.
So for me, I feel that that issuch an important thing for
anyone that's listening, that'sa school director out there
listening, or anyone that's ineducation, realizing that what
(14:45):
you're learning in school is soimportant and it's so hard to
unlearn.
That isn't it?
Mark (14:50):
yeah, yeah, and I mean I'm a little surprised actually
that it was easy for folksbecause it's still, I mean, the
tissue model isn't just taught,it's in the culture.
Eric (15:02):
Yeah.
Mark (15:04):
You know we learned I mean I had a tissue model in my mind
just from going to gym classand going to yoga class.
I didn't expect it to be asmooth transition, but and I'm
not saying it would be smoothfor everybody I mean it might
help to have a neuroscientist asthe teacher definitely you have
that authority.
Eric (15:23):
Already dr olson's here is their neuroscience degree right
.
Mark (15:27):
It makes, it, puts you in a position of authority where
they they respect making stuffyeah, I mean maybe it's the
authority, or maybe it's theteaching style or um, and also
maybe it's just the.
You know what I delivered.
I mean just saying, hey, if youput people under anesthesia,
all of a sudden you can touchyour toes, no problem.
I think convey is quite a bit.
Eric (15:47):
Yeah and and yeah, cause, if you're, if it's a fascia
problem, but you remove thenervous system, there's no
problem.
Mark (15:55):
Yeah.
Eric (15:55):
So it kind of just debunks that whole idea right away,
doesn't it?
right away yeah, uh, that'sinteresting.
Yeah, my, my journey into theI'm gonna the anti-fascist way,
the, the anti-fascist model,actually came from going to the
fascial research congress in2011, because it actually didn't
answer any of my questions.
(16:16):
It actually created morequestions.
And where just things didn'tanswer any of my questions, it
actually created more questionswhere just things weren't adding
up.
Now, I didn't have any answerat the time, but I just knew
that something didn't make sense.
It took quite a few years afterthat to start putting pieces
together.
But if we actually think abouthow that tissue-based model, and
that fashion model particularly, doesn't really make sense, we
(16:41):
want it to, but when we look atthe evidence, the research, or
we think about the critically,it just doesn't.
Mark (16:45):
It doesn't, it doesn't make sense anymore yeah, well,
and I think, uh, I mean all body, every aspect of anatomy, is
cool, you know.
So there's no question that itis cool, uh, and it makes sense
that we like to think in thoseterms because we are familiar
with three-dimensional objectsand physics.
(17:07):
I mean, even a six-month-oldexpects objects to fall and kind
of understands the propertiesof matter to some degree, and so
that's very intuitive to thinkin those terms.
If you think something is moremovable or more pliable, we
(17:28):
understand what makes thingspliable in our house, but we
don't really understand complexnetworks of millions of
electrical signals, those are.
That's just not intuitive atall.
You know, it's kind ofunfortunate that the reality is
this complex, because it is verydifficult to understand.
(17:51):
That's the way it is.
Eric (17:54):
Yeah, oftentimes the simplest answer is usually the
correct one, but in this casemaybe not.
Mark (18:04):
Yeah, Occam's razor applies in certain conditions,
but not in others.
Eric (18:08):
Yeah, and I would say that this is.
I would think that, based onwhat we're talking about, that
it doesn't apply in thiscondition.
Mark (18:16):
Yeah, because perceiving reality and figuring out how to
be a living organism cannot besimple no, it shouldn't be.
Eric (18:24):
No, no, it shouldn't be.
Let's talk abouttrauma-informed, because I kind
of go.
We know that in the commonideal in the massage, body work,
manual therapy world is traumais stored in fascia.
This is a kind of term thatgets has been used for the 20
plus years I've been around theindustry and you do a lot of
(18:45):
trauma-informed stuff, so I'dlike to hear your perspective
about trauma-informed care andtrauma-informed education and
how what you do or talk about oreducate it is different from
others yeah, yeah, very happy totalk about that.
Mark (19:03):
Lots to be said.
Uh, I'm going to come back tothat statement about the, the
fascia and the trauma there,because that's that's where
these two topics come togetherat the same place.
Uh, but a little bit ofbackground on that.
So, trauma-informed I think thefirst thing that people have to
be really clear about is thattrauma-informed it doesn't mean
(19:24):
trauma treatment.
So I was just in a event theother day where they're trying
to get 1 million trauma-informedleaders within the next 10
years, and this was like incorporate world.
So this is you know, you couldbe I don't know Goldman Sachs or
something like that and have atrauma informed office
(19:47):
environment.
You know, it's not about.
Obviously, goldman Sachs is nottrying to do trauma work, you
know, but there's people thatwork there and I'm not saying
anything.
I just pulled Goldman Sachs outof a hat.
I'm not saying they actuallyare doing that.
I have no idea.
But the point is that anycompany can be trauma informed,
(20:09):
any person can be traumainformed.
It's really just a matter ofknowing about trauma, how it
impacts people, knowing how torespond to it, knowing how to
not make things worse, butespecially when we are working
with people, and especially whenwe're caring for people, that's
(20:30):
a special subset oftrauma-informed work.
It's trauma-informed care and Idon't think there's any
profession that is more in needof trauma-informed care than
massage therapy.
You could argue, even more sothan psychotherapy, but I mean
splitting hairs there.
But the thing is, withpsychotherapy you're not
touching people.
(20:50):
So massage has this veryspecial place where a lot of
things relevant to trauma comeup and all people think, oh yeah
, trauma touching people, sexualassault, of course, that's that
.
That reason alone would be areason.
But there are, there's so muchmore than that, um, and it
(21:12):
doesn't have, doesn't be,doesn't have to be about people
having traumatic experienceslike that.
It can be just more a deeperlevel around developmental
trauma and how people show upand relate to you and how do you
relate to them.
So it's really about optimizingthe client therapist
(21:34):
relationship so they feel moresafe.
Because if they don't feel safeor you, you know it's not
binary, it's all in continuum.
But I'll just say it in abinary way If they don't feel
safe, you're not going to get asmuch work accomplished.
Because, again, we're notworking with tissues, even
though people think we are.
We're working with the nervoussystem.
We're working withinteroception, and the nervous
(21:56):
system is going to just balk atyou if it doesn't have a sense
of safety.
So you got to start there.
You know the more you can do tohelp people feel safe in your
treatment room.
I think you know the moresuccess you'll have in other
realms, especially because italso relates to pain, and that's
(22:18):
what a lot of us are dealingwith is trying to help people
with pain.
So there's just a whole bunchthere where uh, you know my
students at the end of theprogram every year they just
they look at me like how in theworld could you not have a
trauma-informed massage?
Training like that's that'sinsane should be foundational.
Like that's insane Should be,foundational.
(22:40):
Yeah, it should be foundational,but it's hard to make it
foundational, which is somethingwe could talk about later.
But before we get to that,there's another thing there
about the trauma in the bodypart that you mentioned A lot of
people.
This is also a tissue-basedapproach, a tissue-based mindset
(23:00):
applied to the concept oftrauma.
To think that trauma is in thebody or is in a tissue that is
thinking with these tissuethought patterns, and you have
to understand that tissue is nota thing that can be extracted,
it's a pattern, it's aneuropsychological pattern.
It is not a thing that can beextracted, it's a pattern, it's
a neuropsychological pattern.
(23:21):
It is not a thing insidetissues.
And people think this waybecause they're like, oh, I was
rubbing their shoulder and thenthey started to cry yeah, well,
that doesn't mean something'sstored in your tissue, it means
that your nervous system isresponding and it's all
brain-based.
It has nothing to do withtissue, absolutely nothing.
And so to really, you know, tocombine the whole fascia model
(23:45):
thing and to and to blend thatwith trauma is like, you know,
two wrongs make an extra wrong,uh, element, and and you know
it's not too it's really notthat different, in a way, from
thinking that we're extractingdemons.
You know, if it was 200 yearsago, you know we're going to
extract trauma, we're going torelease trauma.
I'm going to release your, your, your fascia, which I can't do,
(24:07):
and then I'm going to releaseyour trauma, which I also can't
do.
Uh, that's kind of the mindset,right.
But if we understand thattrauma is a neuropsychological
pattern and it has all thisinteresting relationship between
interoceptive states and weunderstand that we're working
with the nervous system, then itbecomes way more interesting
about what we're doing and howwe're impacting people.
(24:30):
And we understand that justbecause they started they had an
emotional outburst of some kind, or emotional expression of
some kind, that's not healing.
For, first of all, like, likeweeping, is not healing.
Um, it may be useful or not,you know, but I mean, it's out
of our scope to try to work withthat, but.
(24:51):
But we can be, but it isdefinitely within our scope to
be with it.
I mean, if someone startscrying, just be a human being
and be there with them.
So that's not healing trauma,but that is being there with
people.
And I think if you can't bethere with people, that's also
not going to be safe.
(25:11):
So, you know, people ask well,how, what does this look like in
the actual room?
And we have kind of you know,dig into details there.
But you know we're not.
We're not going to say, oh, youknow, what are you crying about
?
You know, tell me about yourstory.
We're not doing that.
Eric (25:26):
Obviously, if they want to talk, you know there's no
reason we can't listen I like tothink of it and just to try to
really briefly simplify whatyou're saying is it's really
just a matter of just being agood human yeah just being a
compassionate caring other forthis person who is having an
(25:47):
experience, and we're just therefor them yeah would that be
accurate.
Mark (25:54):
Yeah, yeah yeah and and but.
But you know.
So I would say, everybody whotrains to be a massage therapist
thinks of themselves as aloving human being who wants to
make the world a better place.
I mean, that's probably a basewhere most people start.
That doesn't mean that we'reall equally good at it, though.
So that's the thing is oneperson might, you know, a lot of
(26:18):
times things come up and you'relike, well, I don't know what
to do right now.
I'm not really sure what to sayright now.
That would be helpful, butthere's, you know, one thing
that's not helpful is coming inwith an agenda which goes back
to this tissue model, like, oh,I'm going to, like, fix your
posture.
You know, to me the posturetopic comes back in with the
(26:42):
trauma topic of well, what ifthat person's posture is related
to their trauma?
Like, what if that's protective?
Like, do you want to quote,change it?
Um, that's adaptive.
You know, you're pathologizingit.
You can't have atrauma-informed approach and
pathologize anything.
You can't pathologize theirbehavior, you can't pathologize
their posture.
So just coming in with like, oh, okay, let's.
Um, you know, I see that yourshoulder isn't.
(27:03):
You know, the same on bothsides, so we're gonna fix that
that that doesn't fit into atrauma-informed approach in my
book I like.
Eric (27:13):
I like where you, we are, where you've gone with that mark
.
I think that's that's animportant thing for any of us to
really just embrace and andinto our practice.
Is that you said can'tpathologize anything, it's not
consistent or is inconsistentwith a trauma-informed um model.
(27:34):
Can you expand a little bit ordiscuss a bit more I'm sure you
can about that?
So what would you say, like sayin a course, or say in a
conversation with a therapistwho says you know, who notices
all of these postural changes insomeone, and the person the
patient, client, depending whereyou are, what you call them the
(27:55):
person comes in and says iscommenting on their posture.
Anywhere you are, what you callthem, the person comes in and
says is commenting on theirposture in a trauma-informed way
.
How would you have thatconversation without furthering
problematic behaviors or ideas?
Mark (28:12):
just to clarify the client is commenting on their posture,
or the therapist?
Eric (28:15):
the client is, because that happens sometimes, right,
they're like oh, my posture isso bad, and then, and then the
client, and then the therapistis, of course, oh yes it is, and
then just to yeah, have thatconversation yeah, yeah, well, I
mean, first of all, um, I'm notgoing to affirm any kind of
good or bad quality.
Mark (28:34):
I would try to steer.
Steer it towards you know well,how does it feel to you,
because that's ultimately what Icare about.
But I get what you're saying,that you know this is very
embedded in the culture, thatthere is a good and bad and that
people associate that like well, that's why I have back pain,
even though you're probablygoing to have back pain either
(28:55):
way.
So you know, but you know itgets put together because of the
way the culture is.
So you know, there's, there's,so there's no one answer to this
because it depends on what youthink they know and what kind of
relationship you have with them.
But there's lots of room foreducation about you know, hey,
(29:17):
you, hey, you know there, youknow you might be interested in
knowing that a lot of people,you know that hasn't been there,
hasn't been a found, acorrelation between these things
you know.
So you know it's one way toexplore why, why, that's the
position that you like, you knowdo you want to be in a
(29:38):
different position?
Why do you want to be in thatdifferent position?
And I mean, I think I wouldhave to know a little bit more
about the you know thisimaginary person too, because
one of the elements that I thatI find really interesting about
posture is that it's it's notjust this structural thing, it's
this psychological thing, andwe know that, yeah, if you're
(30:02):
sad you'll look one way and ifyou're proud you'll look another
, but also it's the oppositedirection too, that if you don't
want to feel something that'strue for you, you can put on a
posture that blocks it, like trystanding at like military
attention and feeling grief.
It's basically, it's next toimpossible.
(30:25):
You know, if I was, you know,talking with you right now and I
started and I felt like I wasgoing to cry, I could like move
my body around in a certain wayto make sure I don't cry.
Yeah, yeah, but I could do thatfor the rest of my life too.
You know, I could be like Ifeel like crying, but like
crying, but I don't want to dealwith that.
So I'm just going to walkaround real stiff and make sure
I don't feel that way.
Okay, so that client walkinginto the office, that person who
(30:49):
I just kind of have a sensethat that posture has this whole
psychological story about ithas.
This whole psychological storyabout it is going to be
different than somebody whoseems like you know, their
posture really isn't aboutpsychology.
It doesn't seem like that's.
That's really what's going onfor them.
Not that I'm going to say, oh,I think your posture is about
(31:11):
psychology.
We're obviously not doing that.
But you know, you still get asense.
Yeah.
Eric (31:16):
Yeah.
Whether it's about psychologyor whether it's about some type
of adaptive thing, because theyhurt yeah no, you mean yeah,
yeah right.
Mark (31:25):
Right, because you know, maybe they're one shoulders
higher, because when it's thesame, that doesn't feel good.
It's just a simple nociceptivenot necessarily simple, but it's
nociceptive in its basisWhereas somebody else comes in
and they're walking around theway they are because of the
psychology.
So I think those are verydifferent.
Those are going to be, thoseare going to take different
(31:48):
courses perhaps.
Eric (31:51):
Yeah, I mean that's a great.
I love that.
And what I was really kind ofgetting at I think you kind of
you did a great job answering isthat it depends, it's gray,
it's uncertain, it and that'swhere it comes down to the being
okay with not having all of theanswers, but just trying to be
(32:13):
less wrong in what we're doing.
And this is something that Ifeel is so necessary with us in
our profession.
Doesn't matter whether incanada, the us, anywhere in the
world, is that we?
Yes, it's nice to simplifythings because it gives us like
clear, linear process.
But if we're speaking ofposture and we see that posture
is it psychological, is itnociceptive in nature, is it
(32:37):
structural our approach is goingto be different for each of
them.
Is it nociceptive in nature?
Is it structural?
Our approach is going to bedifferent for each of them.
But we don't need, we can't tryto fix it, we shouldn't try to
fix it.
But there's so often that beliefthat.
So maybe the example I startedoff with we said, well, the
client comes in, but maybe theclient comes in, but maybe the
(32:58):
client comes.
I got back pain.
And then the therapist looks atthem and it's like, ah, it's
because of you know, your righthip, your right An ominous is,
is elevated and rotated, andyou're you got this S curve in
your spine, whatever.
Blah, blah, blah.
That's not helpful.
Yeah, yeah it's leading you downthe wrong path, often of your,
your, uh clinical reasoning yeah, they don't know that at all.
Mark (33:23):
Yeah, I mean, they'd have to have god's eyes to be able to
see what's initiating thosenociceptive signals, and nobody
can have that.
So, um, yeah, I mean, I thinkthe one, I mean there's the it
depends is the answer.
But also, be curious and humbleis the answer.
Yeah, and that's that's likethe one thing that you can say
(33:46):
for sure.
Right is you know, if youexplore with curiosity, I mean I
, I think that will always leadsomewhere.
Eric (33:53):
Good, yes, 100 agree.
And that's the one thing Ioften, I always say in my
courses too is people like whatdo you do here?
I'm like, just be curious.
You know there's no bestapproach, there's no best
technique, there's no bestmodality or intervention for for
a lot of the stuff.
Just be curious and askquestions and just try stuff to
see and be humble yeah and and Ithink that is what I found from
(34:19):
talking to you and from othersand just from my own journey is
that approach, that curiosity,that explorative, uh, that
humble approach seems to be?
I'm going to say I don't know.
It needs a name to make itsound sexy and you could sell it
so people would take thosecourses.
You know, if it was the, youput that into an acronym.
Mark (34:41):
You know the humble, curious, explorative.
Eric (34:46):
Make it, make it into like a four-letter acronym.
People would buy that theywould eat that up.
But when you're teaching acourse and you're and you're not
providing, like this is theanswer, that can be a hard sell
for some people who aren't thereyet.
Mark (35:03):
Yeah, well, especially since we're dealing with
something that has consequences.
Pain has consequences, so youdo want to have an answer.
I mean, who doesn't?
Eric (35:14):
want to Do I hurt.
Mark (35:14):
Yeah, yeah, I mean, but if anybody could give that answer,
you know they'd be, they'd be,you know, making a lot of money,
if, well, I guess she can makea lot of money without the
answer.
But uh, yeah, it's a prettytough question to add to, to to
answer accurately, and we allwish we could do it, but it's's
(35:36):
just too complex to do it.
Eric (35:43):
Well, this kind of goes, I think, to your expertise as a
neuroscientist and as someonewho has a PhD in neuroscience
and is a body worker.
Let's talk a bit about yourkind of like a neuroscience
approach, Like what's happeningfrom your perspective or from
from what you know when we'redoing work.
What's happening from aneuroscience perspective and you
(36:05):
can be as deep.
You can be as detailed and asin-depth and technical as you'd
like.
Mark (36:11):
Okay, great yeah, well, um , I have this whole model that's
built out that demonstratesthis visually.
So this is one of my favoritethings to talk about.
Well, I mean, you have tounderstand how pain works first.
So you have to realize thatwe've got the tissue inputs and
(36:34):
then we've got spinal activity,and then that goes up to the
thalamus and then that goes upto limbic structures, so you
have that ascending pathway, andthen you have to understand
that there's also thisdescending pathway, coming back
down to the spinal cord.
That's like a basis tounderstand where we're going to
(36:59):
interface with this.
We also have to understand thatwe have immune and endocrine
responses that are just kind ofgenerating this chemical soup
that the nervous system lives in, that's affecting how all that
signaling is going to go at allof those points, at any or all
of those points.
(37:19):
So what do we do?
You know, we're not changingtissues.
We might notice changes intissues, but those aren't
actually.
We're not making changes to thetissue mechanically.
They might be respondingbecause the nervous system is
responding.
So the you know, uh, we'reproviding, we're doing two
things we're providing a touchinput and we're providing a
(37:43):
relational input.
You know, because we exist associal creatures in the same
room with them, and so I'm notgoing to provide the same touch
input in one situation oranother situation.
If I have good therapeuticresonance with them, that's
going to have a differentoutcome than if I have poor
therapeutic resonance, and sothat cannot be underestimated.
(38:03):
You know this is person, thisis.
Am I conveying that this is asafe place?
Do I look like somebody whoknows what they're doing?
Did this person have positiveexperiences before with me or
with other people?
You know, all of those thingsare filtering in that ultimately
are going to influence thatdescending signal which we think
of as, as you know, placebo.
(38:27):
But placebo is not thisethereal thing, it's this actual
neural signal that goes fromone part of the nervous system
to another part of the nervoussystem.
So that's one way we'redefinitely affecting, we're
influencing that descendingsignal, which for some people
might be more useful than others, depending on how well that
signal is working for them.
(38:48):
We're also moving tissuesaround and by providing input we
are creating signals that mightshout louder than what the
current signals that they have.
So if they have, you know, cfibers that are complaining at a
certain level, we're providingtouch input that could inhibit
(39:08):
that, or at least just shoutlouder than it for some period
of time.
So a lot of people think, ohyeah, you just did something
magical for me, but it wasn't.
We just, you know, we just dida bunch of smoke.
Think, oh yeah, you just didsomething magical for me, but it
wasn't.
We just did a bunch of smokeand mirrors for you, which is a
useful thing to do, but wedidn't actually change the
source of that.
And then we're also providingrelaxation, which is going to
(39:33):
change those endocrine and maybeimmune responses in a more
longer term.
Exactly how long, I don't knowif anybody knows.
Um, but there's a wholebootstrapping process, right.
So there's the what are wedoing during that one hour
versus how are we helping peoplein a longer term?
And you know, in a tissue-basedmodel, people are like, oh, I
(39:54):
don't want to do that feelingstuff, I just want to do this,
like change the tissue stuff.
But we don't do tissue.
So what we are doing ischanging how we feel, and from
how we feel, other things couldchange.
From there, you know, we mighthave different endocrine
responses, different immuneresponses, um, so you know, I I
(40:18):
mean there's a whole bunch morethat I could say but I mean,
that's kind of a real quickoverview, yeah.
Eric (40:26):
Yeah, it's not as simple as just your.
You know traditional narrativesI'm increasing circulation, I'm
, you know, decreasing muscletone, I am like it's all
mechanical right, or I'm movinglymph around or I'm releasing
fascia, whatever that means.
You know, breaking apart thoseadhesions, I guess kind of
traditional stuff.
It's way more complex than thatbecause I like what you said.
(40:48):
You said it's not just a touchinput, but there's also a
relational input and that and Iguess we'll go back and combine
that idea with goes with thetrauma informed, where there's
that relational aspect andthat's where a lot of the people
can't see this, but in airquotes, that's where the change
is going to occur is acombination of these things, you
(41:14):
being a good person who'ssupportive and caring and
providing touch that ismeaningful to the person on the
table yeah, I mean, if youpeople came in and we didn't
actually touch them and thenthey left, they'd, they'd
probably feel a little better.
Mark (41:30):
Or if we, you know, on the first day of class, you know,
for me I have my students justput their hands on the client
for a half hour my students justput their hands on the client
for a half hour and you know, toembed the idea that you don't
have to do anything fancy tomake people feel better, you
just have to be, you know,attuned to them and feel, help
them feel, safe.
Now I will say that there, I dothink that there is some room
(41:53):
for like micro circulatorychanges, not the normal
circulatory story that peopletalk about, but I do think that
there's ways that maybeperipheral nerves are not happy
and maybe we are helping them bea little more happy on a micro
scale.
Eric (42:12):
So there's that the DNM idea of like.
The DNM idea of like changingthe circulation and the
nutrients to the cutaneousnerves.
Is that what you're?
Mark (42:26):
referring to yeah, yeah, so, to whatever extent you know,
someone's pain is based onirritation of peripheral nerves,
then, yeah, that seems like avery viable explanation for some
of the things that we're doing.
Eric (42:44):
One thing I'm curious about and I'll admit that I know
enough to know that I don'tknow enough about the DNM,
because I know it's used as anexplanatory model.
Based on your knowledge ofneuroscience, does it make sense
?
Mark (43:03):
I mean what I know of DNM.
That makes sense to me, but Ican't say that I've read it in a
while to really answer thatquestion as well as I might like
to or you might like to.
Eric (43:22):
No.
Mark (43:24):
I usually give it a thumbs up all the time.
Eric (43:27):
I think it's a less wrong approach or less wrong
understanding.
I think it makes more sense.
If we're talking aboutneuroscience, then we are our.
Most of our impact is occurringthrough nerves through sensory
nerves and the counter receptorsin the skin and upper layers of
the connective tissues.
That makes sense to me, basedon my understanding, but I don't
(43:48):
know if it's I want it to makesense or there's actually
evidence for it.
Mark (43:51):
So I that's where I get skeptical evidence you know, for
it's kind of hard to come by,you know it's hard to come by
evidence for any of these things.
But just you know, just intheory.
You know just on understandingneuroscience, in theory, uh, it
works.
And you know now if, if we'resaying all pain issues that we
(44:13):
see in our treatment rooms is isabout peripheral nerves, and I
would say, no, I doubt that'strue.
But so you know, I think wehave to understand there's a lot
of complexity, there's a lot ofdifferent sources for what it
is.
I mean, some person might havefibromyalgia and it's about, you
know, descending modulation notworking properly.
(44:34):
Another person has this issuewith their peripheral nerves.
Another person has neuralinflammation.
You know it's endocrine issueor autoimmune issue.
I mean there's all thesedifferent points that it could
be and I think that you knowthey're going to show up
differently and respond todifferent treatments.
Eric (44:57):
For sure.
There's not a one-size-fits-allapproach which makes sense.
My understanding and I'm notbad-mouthing DNM, I just kind of
came up with it as you weretalking about the
microcirculatory thing is that Ithink as long I like the model,
the explanatory model, fromwhat I've understood from it,
and I did take a DNM courseyears ago, which was interesting
(45:17):
.
It was did take a dnm course, uh, years ago, uh, which was
interesting, it was good.
Um, what is that?
It seems to make sense formechanical things like
positional movement.
It hurts when I do this thingbecause you're loading or
unloading tissues differentlyand I'm like, yeah, that makes
sense.
And then you try to make thatnerve, nerves, that area, feel
better, whatever you create somechange in the how it, the
(45:43):
transmission, whatever it mightbe.
Maybe you alter the noxiousstimuli somehow, whatever it
might be, and yeah, it's like,oh, that feels better now but,
you know, I guess it's likeanything you're saying in your
first day of your students.
You're putting your hands onpeople.
You don't have to do a lotsometimes for people to feel
better.
So I think that oftentimes,when we're looking at newer
(46:05):
approaches or newer models, Ithink we also have to be
skeptical of them, to say thatthis approach seems to be
working, but it might not beworking for the reasons you
think.
But just be humble about it yeah, maybe it's maybe it's more
than maybe just blaming thosecutaneous nerves isn't enough
maybe if what say the one time?
Like if you're just you saying,oh, it's just the cutaneous
(46:26):
nerves, that's what you need towork on those that's kind of
this very uh reductive approach,just like saying you just need
to work on fascia.
It doesn't work that way,because you're that's, that's
too's too simple.
Mark (46:37):
Yeah, yeah, I mean, I think, understanding.
I think that's a great positivestep.
You know, like I teach, youknow students, that you know,
hey, when we talk about Whoa,that client wanted their
rhomboids worked on, or theywanted their erectors worked on,
yeah, is it really about that?
Is it really their rhomboids oris it their dorsal scapular
(46:59):
nerve?
Because look at where thedorsal scapular nerve is like,
let's think about that.
Or let's think about wherethose um, you know, the, the ram
eye come up through the tissuealong the back.
That's just where everybodywants to receive their massages.
So maybe it's not about thosemuscles at all, it's about these
(47:20):
nerves.
So I think that's a hugepositive step for the massage
industry to think in those terms.
And then the next layer of thatwould be to get more into
central processing and endocrinesystems and stuff like that.
Sure, yeah, it's a step in theright direction, I agree.
Eric (47:38):
Endocrine systems and stuff like that, sure, yeah,
it's a step in the rightdirection.
I I agree.
Is that, like when I was inmassage school you know it was
over 20 years ago now the wedidn't.
We learned about nerves but wedidn't really learn about them
unless it was like a, like alarge peripheral nerve, like the
median nerve or the ulnar nerveor the sciatic.
Like we learned about them andwhen those are problem, we never
, like I don't ever rememberlearning about like the dorsal
(47:59):
ram eye, other than like we hadto be able to identify them on a
diagram but we never talkedabout oh, this person might have
these symptoms in this areabecause this nerve might be
cranky, yeah, and needs to beunloaded or needs more
microcircuit, like that was justsomething that was never
addressed.
It was always muscles fascia yepand insuligaments I agree it's
(48:22):
a step in the right directionmostly that way still yeah, yeah
, and I guess, just as a as akind of a final kind of
discussion point or just thingto just hear your comments on,
is that these conversations likeyou and I are having and people
have been having these for along time now about these, the
challenging, these old models.
Now maybe it's just myobservations, but it feels like
(48:45):
in maybe the last decade or so,10-15 years, there's more of
these conversations having about, like this, neuroscience,
neuroimmune, you know,trauma-informed, all these
buzzwords, biopsychosocial painscience, all these these things
are starting to be talking aboutmore, but we still don't see
any meaningful change in thekind of a culture or the
(49:07):
educational competencies.
And that's something that I'mreally focused on probably more
energy on than I need to is ontrying to have conversations and
with the stakeholders that areinvolved in making these, these
kind of systemic changes there'sa lot of words.
I didn't have a question.
There was a statement, I guess.
But what are your thoughts onwhat would be ideal or what do
(49:30):
you think it would be a good wayto create more of these
meaningful changes in education,like you did at your school,
like how is that done?
Mark (49:39):
yeah, it is a very hard problem to solve because, you
know, I did it because I justhappened to have a phd in
neuroscience, right, so not toomany folks are in that
particular position, right, Imean most people.
If they have, you know, if theyhave that education, they're
(50:00):
probably not teaching, at leastin the united states, they're
probably not teaching at amassage school, you know.
So, to getting the level ofeducation that we want into
massage school, you know thatthey'd have to pay more, and a
lot of times they don't pay verywell, it's not really.
You know, just in the logisticsof that it's a challenging
(50:26):
model.
You know, to make it work you'dhave to raise tuition and then,
um, you know, but then peoplewould have to think that they're
going to make more money ratherthan working at Massage Envy.
So there's already a decline, atleast in the United States, of
people going in to massage.
(50:46):
Now it's been going on for overa decade.
So that's part of the wholeequation is just simple
financial elements.
Even if we could solve the, themindset elements, so I don't
really have any great solutions.
It's the same problem withtrauma-informed, you know.
(51:07):
I say, hey, we should all betrauma-informed, but what it
takes to do that is verydifficult because you actually
need people teaching thatmaterial that have enough
education to not be dangerous.
If you only have a little bityou know, you kind of get this
sophomoric level of knowledgewhere you claim you know
something but you actually don't, and it makes it worse.
(51:29):
So, um, I don't know, but youknow also.
Maybe little by little is theway.
Eric (51:39):
Yeah, and I think that the little by little is creating
communities of therapists andjust people you teach, people
who take your courses orstudents that you've taught and
that kind of creating that kindof groundswell of support.
And the San Diego Pain Summitwas kind of like that well of
support and, uh, you know, theSan Diego Pain Summit was kind
of like that.
(52:00):
It felt like at the beginning,uh, we talked before we started.
That that was kind of reallypushed me into my direction or
it kind of gave me some languageand some understanding and some
resources to put piecestogether from that conference
the first one was in 2015 that Iwent to and that really.
I left that conference with alot of excitement about, okay,
this, this can be done, you know, and and.
(52:22):
So I went and it totallychanged the trajectory of my, my
professional life, which isgood, I'm happy.
I'm happy I'd happen.
But the one thing that came outof that was that trying to
change things at a systemiclevel is almost impossible.
Mark (52:38):
Yeah.
Eric (52:39):
It has to be, uh, smaller, community based, and so you get
more people talking about thesethings, more people in the
education that will go intopositions of authority or
leadership or education.
And so that's the hope, but Ido still feel that sometimes I
just wish there was more thatwas done.
Mark (53:00):
And you know people like yourself.
Eric (53:01):
Teaching at schools like that and being able to to just
say this is how we're going todo things to me is very
inspiring, because I think thatis.
We need more of that.
But again, you said you needthe education, because a little
bit of knowledge could actuallybe a problem, you don't?
Mark (53:19):
know enough.
One thing I might just addreally quick.
Um, just so people know thatit's not a state law thing.
It's not about the state sayingthis is what you should teach
or not.
I mean there are like this ishow many hours of this and that
you should teach, but they don'tget into any more detail than
that.
They'll just say 200 hours ofanatomy and then they don't
(53:43):
really break it down after that.
I don't know of any state thatsays you need to teach this many
hours about.
Pain.
Like pain is not even listed,which is crazy so it's crazy,
but at the same time it alsomeans that nobody's keeping
anybody from teaching thematerial correctly.
It's not like there's thesevolumes saying you need to teach
(54:08):
that, it's all about muscles.
Nobody's saying you have to dothat, so there's room for it.
It's just a matter of theschools wanting to do it.
And I think you know, maybe ifthere was some kind of like
stamp that we could have, youknow, be giving to each other
that you know we'reneuro-informed, or something
like that, and we would build upa hey, if you're hiring
(54:31):
teachers from around the countrybecause that's what I did, I
hired teachers from around thecountry.
I couldn't be findingtrauma-informed, neuro-centric
teachers just on Kauai.
I had to find people all overNorth America.
Same thing.
Maybe we could encourage thatlike hey, I'm a school that
hires neuro-informed,trauma-informed you know faculty
(54:55):
that maybe that'll be a thing,I don't know.
Eric (54:57):
Yeah, I like that idea and there's yeah, I know of a
couple schools in Canada thathave done that, but you know
there's hundreds of schools hereand I'm sure there's hundreds
or thousands even in the uspopulation is much bigger, uh,
that that are doing that butit's, it's.
Yeah, it's bite-sized, but it's.
It's better than nobody doingit yeah yeah.
(55:19):
So now that you're, you've leftkuai and you're, you're, you're
back in florida.
Where do you, where do youdoing with yourself?
Now?
You're not running a schoolthere.
Mark (55:28):
I'm not running a school.
I am teaching classes online,and that's you know.
I love teaching at the schooland I thought this is great, but
I want to be working with morethan a few dozen people a year.
I want to like.
All this material really needsto be out there on a larger
plane, so I teach classes onlineall the time on these very
(55:49):
topics that we were discussing.
Eric (55:51):
Nice, and how can people find you if they're looking for
you, mark?
Mark (55:54):
They can go to my website at drrolsoncom.
That's D-R-O-L-S-O-Ncom.
Okay.
Eric (56:01):
And I'll put that in the show notes too.
And just as one last bit, justin case anyone's curious, do you
want to just share yourfeelings about the current
political state and you're in ofall the places that you?
Could be you're in Florida.
Mark (56:14):
We already talked about fascia.
So I'm an anti-fascia personand I'm also an anti-fascist and
I'm not very happy aboutfascism that we're dealing with.
And I'm not very happy aboutthe fascism that we're dealing
with, and I happen to be in atown which is kind of central to
a lot of this you knowright-wing agenda so I'm kind of
(56:38):
in the heart of this.
I'm looking forward toparticipating in the protests.
Yeah, got to change protests.
Yeah, we've got to change it.
Eric (56:50):
Is there protests going on there now in Florida?
Mark (56:55):
Do you have to?
Eric (56:56):
leave Florida to protest.
No.
Mark (57:00):
I mean this is going to date your thing here, but the
19th of April is a big deal.
We're aiming for 11 millionprotests around the country.
It points back to an event 250years ago, right before the
United States started, wherethere were protests.
So it's got a long history andwe're going to follow that and
(57:23):
continue that and if we get 11million, it reaches this
threshold.
So have usually creates change.
Anyway, there's a lot there.
Eric (57:32):
I wish I was canadian right now yeah, yeah, it's for
all us canadian, so it's it's.
This whole thing is veryheartbreaking and and very, very
sad and what I don't like youknow, to avoid political talks,
but I think right now, in thecontext of this conversation,
it's probably good to address ita little bit.
(57:54):
It's terrible because what Ifeel happening is that so many
Canadians are so upset becauseof all the annexation threats
and all the anti-Canadianrhetoric coming from the
administration that Canadiansare now like and I'm
generalizing, you see, this isjust media are anti-American.
Mark (58:17):
Yeah.
Eric (58:18):
Like well, you can't be anti, because not every American
is a MAGA supporter themajority of them are not but yet
everyone gets painted with thesame brush and I think that
that's unfair, because I have alot of american friends.
I have a lot of canadian goodfriends that live in the us and
(58:40):
are kind of like what the hellis going on?
Like?
this is crazy yeah it's just,it's, it's a, it's a, it's a
very.
I think it's one of thosethings in history.
We're gonna look back and we'relike what the hell happened and
how did this happen?
Mark (58:53):
yeah, well, I hope we are able to look back like that and
even if it's not logical, it'sstill understandable.
I mean the it's it's.
It's understandable to be just,you know, at I don't even know
where it is right now, butbesieged with the emotion of it.
Eric (59:12):
So yeah rage yeah yeah, it makes me very sad too.
So well, thanks, mark.
That was fantastic.
I really enjoyed thatconversation.
I would.
We had a lot more things totalk about, so maybe we'll have
to schedule another one in thefuture.
Uh, I will, yeah, that'd begreat.
I had a great time and then, uh, yeah, people can get in touch
with you if they have anyquestions or want to see what
(59:33):
you're all about.
Mark (59:33):
Thank you thank you, yeah, thank you so much thank you for
listening.
Eric (59:41):
Please subscribe so you can be notified of all future
episodes.
Purpose versus is alsoavailable to watch on YouTube.
If you enjoyed this episode,please like, subscribe and share
to your favorite social mediaplatforms.
If you'd like to connect withme, I can be reached through my
website, thecebecom, or send mea DM through either Facebook or
(01:00:01):
Instagram at ericpurvisrmt.
Hello and welcome to the Massage Science Podcast.
My name is Eric Purves.
I'm an RMT course creator,continuing education provider
and advocate for evidence-basedmassage therapy.
Thank you for being here and Ihope you enjoy this episode.
And I hope you enjoy thisepisode.
Hello, everyone, and welcome toanother episode of Massage
(00:31):
Science.
Today I'm here with Dr Mark.
Olson who is a massagetherapist and neuroscientist in
Sarasota, Florida.
Thanks for being here, Mark.
Just take a minute and telleverybody about you.
Mark (00:46):
Yeah, thanks, eric, thanks for being here.
Mark, just take a minute andtell everybody about you.
Yeah, thanks, eric, thanks forhaving me.
Yeah, so, as you said, I'm aneuroscientist.
I have a PhD from theUniversity of Illinois and I
studied neuroscience therebecause I was interested in what
people, why people are, the waythey are, what makes them tick,
and I don't know if you want togo into that part of it, or if
(01:14):
you wanted to, yeah, please.
Eric (01:14):
Actually, that was probably one of the things I
wanted to ask you about was yourkind of journey from like
neuroscience to massage therapy,body work.
I'm assuming you did your PhDfirst and then went into body
work.
Is that correct?
Yeah, yeah.
Mark (01:30):
I was not thinking about body work at all when I was
working on my doctorate, exceptthat, you know, occasionally
seemed like massage would be aneat idea and maybe a neat skill
to put in my back pocket forfun.
So yeah, I studied memory andattention and the visual system.
I did research on whether wecould track your eye movement
(01:56):
patterns to see if we could tellfrom your eye movement patterns
whether you recognized a placeor not.
And it was more accurate than alie detector test.
So anyway, I was in a verydifferent world, but I was
always interested in what makesus tick.
So I think massage is alsosomething that is a really good
(02:16):
way to find out what makes ustick too.
I don't know if a lot of peoplethink of it that way, but I
think of it that way Because youfind out a lot of things about
psychology, psychology andoneself.
Uh well, at least one couldthrough through massage.
So I went to hawaii aftergetting my phd and I thought,
well, I said I was going to takea class, so I'll take a class
(02:38):
and found out hey, this is, thisis great, I'll take some more
classes.
And so I became an mvp.
I became a licensed massagetherapist and started teaching
classes at lots of differentschools, and for a long time the
neuroscience and the massagetherapy kind of existed in two
different realms.
They weren't integrated.
(02:58):
Until I started training inaquatic massage therapy or
aquatic body work and I juststarted to realize, oh, there's
a lot of things going on herethat don't make a lot of sense
If what we're telling ourselvesabout body work is true, that
this doesn't seem to be abouttendons and muscles, that people
(03:21):
are having these psychologicalexperiences.
I'm having these psychologicalexperiences that don't make
sense if this is just about softtissue.
And so that's when myneuroscientific mind kicked in
and realized oh yeah, I know alot about all this material, and
so let's put it together.
And so that's what I've beendoing for the last decade or so,
(03:44):
is is blending them, which Icould talk about forever.
Eric (03:49):
Yeah, oh, we can, I'm sure we can, and we can, we can get
into that.
That's really interestingbecause it's what you see.
So in Canada and the U?
S, you know, we can talk aboutpolitical stuff here for briefly
, if you'd like to, in a minute.
But what we see in Canada is wesee the opposite stuff here for
briefly, if you'd like to, in aminute.
But what we see in canada is wesee the opposite.
Usually you see massagetherapists first and then they
pursue the academic realm.
(04:11):
They'll, they'll be like ah,you know what?
I like to be a massagetherapist, but I like research,
I like science and I and they,they will go do masters, phds
and then they will leave themassage profession almost
completely yeah and we see thatall the time.
There's like five I know of PhDsthat are that were RMTs in
Canada, so not a lot.
(04:31):
But I've met many like yourselfin the US who have a PhD.
They've got a doctorate andthey're a massage therapist.
But they did their academicfirst and then they became a
massage therapist.
So that's an interestingdifference between the countries
.
Mark (04:47):
Yeah, yeah, I mean, I don't know if I recommend one of
those routes more than theother.
Each of them has their pros andcons, yeah.
Eric (04:56):
Personally for me, I like the idea of like what you've
done, where you go and you getthis incredible education and
body of knowledge and ways ofthinking which you get through
graduate school.
I know my own experiences goingto grad school.
I completely changed how Ithink and how I think about how
I think you know and I'm sureyou could talk forever about
(05:18):
that too the but then you gofrom that into massage.
It really, I think, providesthat foundational education
where you can really askcritical questions and think
about things differently.
And, like you were saying, thisisn't about muscles, tendons,
joints, bones, the way wethought, yeah.
So I think that sets you up ina different way than going the
(05:43):
other route, where you have alot of unlearning to do.
Mark (05:47):
Yeah yeah, and I think that transition, you know, is
different in Canada because youguys have so many more
educational hours, so maybethere's less of a gap there than
there is in the States, becausethe education, you know, in the
states is so varied and in manycases so so much less than you
(06:07):
have in canada.
So, uh, you know to I meanthat's why I started teaching
all these anatomy classes,because I realized, oh, I mean,
I'm just a neuroscientist, Idon't, I don't, I'm not a
biologist, but I could teach allthese things better than what
I'm seeing, just because it'sbasic and it's, you know, in
(06:28):
many cases it's poor, so itneeds to be improved.
Eric (06:33):
So let's let's talk about, let's let's let's transition
from that to let's talk aboutyour work at the massage school,
cause you were a director andat the massage school in Hawaii.
Tell me a little bit about thattransition on that journey and
what you did differently in thatprogram from, let's say, the
status quo, what other peoplewere doing.
Mark (06:52):
Yeah, yeah.
So I started working with thisone massage school that I almost
immediately became the directorof, on Kauai, and it was a
great school and right from thestart I should just say that.
(07:12):
So the school, from thebeginning, had a more like
mind-body integration elementthan some other massage schools.
So some massage schools aremore focused, or?
maybe have a more medical kindof angle or something like that.
This one had more of abody-mind kind of integration
mindset, which I really lovedbecause that was much more in
(07:33):
line and easy to integrate withmy neuroscience background.
I came into the school saying,hey, let's take what you're
doing and let's add a wholebunch of neuroscience to it what
you're doing and let's add awhole bunch of neuroscience to
it.
But I but the, the directordied, um, that first year, and
uh, I was running it, and so itwas just up to me to, as as the
(07:54):
new director, to figure out whatto do, and one of the so there
were two elements to this.
One was this was a school that,even though they were doing this
really great body-mindintegrations, they're coming
from structural integration,which has a long history of
being based in this tissue-basedVASHA model, and I quickly
(08:18):
realized that this model was notaccurate scientifically, and so
I had a choice you know, thiswas kind of the brand, but I
wasn't gonna.
I wasn't gonna continue doingsomething that wasn't
scientifically sound.
So I, you know I made thechoice to just say we're going
(08:38):
to abolish all of that fasciabased mindset and we're going to
put the you to put the nervoussystem at the center of this.
So that was one element that Ichanged, and I changed that
first and then.
The second element was that thebody-mind integration was great
, but there were some aspects toit that were not
(08:58):
trauma-informed.
I would say we'rere-traumatizing, because they
were using some things that werefrom maybe like 20th century
thought, and now we've evolvedfrom that, we know better.
So I also decided to maketrauma informed a central pillar
(09:19):
of the school.
So there was this neuroinformed and trauma informed
aspect that basically held upthe entire program.
Eric (09:30):
One of the barriers that you see all the time is when I
talk to massage school directorsor owners is this fear of
change or they don't know how tochange because things have been
done the same way for so longStructural, patho-anatomical,
fascial-based ideas and thentrying to bring in a more
(09:55):
science-based, more neurosciencefocus.
I think you said you want toput neuroscience at the center
of the program, which I love.
That is exactly what confirmshow I feel about how I think
things should be done.
How was that received by theother faculty and the other
people in the school?
I'm very curious to hear that.
Mark (10:17):
Yeah, yeah, well, that's a lot of aspects of that answer.
So, um, well, um, there weredefinitely some who were, you
know, all thumbs up andinterested in like, yeah, let's,
uh, you know, let's follow thescience and let's um, you know,
(10:40):
let's do it right.
Uh, you know they were, theywere very supportive.
I had definitely had a lot ofsupport and I would say, you
know, basically all my corefaculty were supportive in that
process and there was there'sthe supportive in the like, I'm
with you as a human being, andand then there's the okay, but I
(11:04):
have to wrap my head around itbecause I've been thinking about
this other way and so you canbe supportive but still also
think in older terms.
So that's a little bit of aprocess of trying to think.
It's a paradigm shift.
It's not just adding anothernote on your slides.
So that takes a while.
(11:25):
I mean, it actually took me awhile.
Even even as a neuroscientist,it still took me a while to
figure out how to rethink about,you know, body tissue stuff,
because I, you know, I'm anexpert in brain stuff, but I, uh
, I was still thinking about,well, I mean, I'm not exactly
sure how knees work completely.
So you know, I'm learning thistoo, so let's you know, let's
(11:50):
figure out what's actually goingon.
And then the individuals whowere the students were totally
fine, like I just startedteaching classes with a
neuroscience center and theywere like, yeah, okay, great.
And I would say hey, by the way,if you were here, you know know
, a few years ago, we would havetaught that and they just kind
of looked at me like well, thatdoesn't make any sense, like it
wasn't any problem for newpeople to, but the problem was
(12:14):
trying to get the message intothose who had learned it an old
way, and so the most of thepushback that I got was from
past graduates who had learnedit a certain way and thought
that what I was doing was, youknow, something like blasphemy
and wanted me to recant orsomething like that.
I don't know if I really gotthat directly, but you know, it
(12:35):
was kind of.
There was a sense of that.
You know I was, you know, justsaying these terrible things
about fascia you know I was uh,you know, just uh saying these
terrible things about fascia,you know?
Eric (12:49):
that is so interesting because a couple things there
that I that really resonateswith me.
One of them was being that thestudents that were learning for
the first time were totally okaywith messaging because you that
was.
Their anchor now wasneuroscience, of course.
And then when you talk aboutother stuff like try and put in
(13:10):
like a fascial or tissue-basedmodel on top of that, it doesn't
make sense to them becausetheir anchor is neuroscience
exactly and then vice versa,those that had the anchor of um,
you know the, that fasciatissue-based model, and then
you're learning neuroscience.
They feel an attack or they feellike it's blasphemy I think it
might've been the word you usedand that is so interesting
(13:31):
because that's something that Iencounter all the time in the
work that I do is that when astudent learns the less wrong
approach, then they're able tothey hold on to that and then
they can progress, I think,easier into this more
neuroscientific mindset, so tospeak.
(13:55):
And one thing I studied in I mayhave said this in some of my
other episodes, I'm not sure Onething I studied when I did my
graduate work is we looked atsome of the barriers and
facilitators for the use ofresearch evidence in practice.
For massage therapists was thatbaseline education, that
(14:22):
introductory information thatthey got in their entry to
practice, shaped how they viewedtheir, their world and your
experience, which is there'sevidence right there of teaching
the school had that.
You experienced that same thing.
So for me, I feel that that issuch an important thing for
anyone that's listening, that'sa school director out there
listening, or anyone that's ineducation, realizing that what
(14:45):
you're learning in school is soimportant and it's so hard to
unlearn.
That isn't it?
Mark (14:50):
yeah, yeah, and I mean I'm a little surprised actually
that it was easy for folksbecause it's still, I mean, the
tissue model isn't just taught,it's in the culture.
Eric (15:02):
Yeah.
Mark (15:04):
You know we learned I mean I had a tissue model in my mind
just from going to gym classand going to yoga class.
I didn't expect it to be asmooth transition, but and I'm
not saying it would be smoothfor everybody I mean it might
help to have a neuroscientist asthe teacher definitely you have
that authority.
Eric (15:23):
Already dr olson's here is their neuroscience degree right
.
Mark (15:27):
It makes, it, puts you in a position of authority where
they they respect making stuffyeah, I mean maybe it's the
authority, or maybe it's theteaching style or um, and also
maybe it's just the.
You know what I delivered.
I mean just saying, hey, if youput people under anesthesia,
all of a sudden you can touchyour toes, no problem.
I think convey is quite a bit.
Eric (15:47):
Yeah and and yeah, cause, if you're, if it's a fascia
problem, but you remove thenervous system, there's no
problem.
Mark (15:55):
Yeah.
Eric (15:55):
So it kind of just debunks that whole idea right away,
doesn't it?
right away yeah, uh, that'sinteresting.
Yeah, my, my journey into theI'm gonna the anti-fascist way,
the, the anti-fascist model,actually came from going to the
fascial research congress in2011, because it actually didn't
answer any of my questions.
(16:16):
It actually created morequestions.
And where just things didn'tanswer any of my questions, it
actually created more questionswhere just things weren't adding
up.
Now, I didn't have any answerat the time, but I just knew
that something didn't make sense.
It took quite a few years afterthat to start putting pieces
together.
But if we actually think abouthow that tissue-based model, and
that fashion model particularly, doesn't really make sense, we
(16:41):
want it to, but when we look atthe evidence, the research, or
we think about the critically,it just doesn't.
Mark (16:45):
It doesn't, it doesn't make sense anymore yeah, well,
and I think, uh, I mean all body, every aspect of anatomy, is
cool, you know.
So there's no question that itis cool, uh, and it makes sense
that we like to think in thoseterms because we are familiar
with three-dimensional objectsand physics.
(17:07):
I mean, even a six-month-oldexpects objects to fall and kind
of understands the propertiesof matter to some degree, and so
that's very intuitive to thinkin those terms.
If you think something is moremovable or more pliable, we
(17:28):
understand what makes thingspliable in our house, but we
don't really understand complexnetworks of millions of
electrical signals, those are.
That's just not intuitive atall.
You know, it's kind ofunfortunate that the reality is
this complex, because it is verydifficult to understand.
(17:51):
That's the way it is.
Eric (17:54):
Yeah, oftentimes the simplest answer is usually the
correct one, but in this casemaybe not.
Mark (18:04):
Yeah, Occam's razor applies in certain conditions,
but not in others.
Eric (18:08):
Yeah, and I would say that this is.
I would think that, based onwhat we're talking about, that
it doesn't apply in thiscondition.
Mark (18:16):
Yeah, because perceiving reality and figuring out how to
be a living organism cannot besimple no, it shouldn't be.
Eric (18:24):
No, no, it shouldn't be.
Let's talk abouttrauma-informed, because I kind
of go.
We know that in the commonideal in the massage, body work,
manual therapy world is traumais stored in fascia.
This is a kind of term thatgets has been used for the 20
plus years I've been around theindustry and you do a lot of
(18:45):
trauma-informed stuff, so I'dlike to hear your perspective
about trauma-informed care andtrauma-informed education and
how what you do or talk about oreducate it is different from
others yeah, yeah, very happy totalk about that.
Mark (19:03):
Lots to be said.
Uh, I'm going to come back tothat statement about the, the
fascia and the trauma there,because that's that's where
these two topics come togetherat the same place.
Uh, but a little bit ofbackground on that.
So, trauma-informed I think thefirst thing that people have to
be really clear about is thattrauma-informed it doesn't mean
(19:24):
trauma treatment.
So I was just in a event theother day where they're trying
to get 1 million trauma-informedleaders within the next 10
years, and this was like incorporate world.
So this is you know, you couldbe I don't know Goldman Sachs or
something like that and have atrauma informed office
(19:47):
environment.
You know, it's not about.
Obviously, goldman Sachs is nottrying to do trauma work, you
know, but there's people thatwork there and I'm not saying
anything.
I just pulled Goldman Sachs outof a hat.
I'm not saying they actuallyare doing that.
I have no idea.
But the point is that anycompany can be trauma informed,
(20:09):
any person can be traumainformed.
It's really just a matter ofknowing about trauma, how it
impacts people, knowing how torespond to it, knowing how to
not make things worse, butespecially when we are working
with people, and especially whenwe're caring for people, that's
(20:30):
a special subset oftrauma-informed work.
It's trauma-informed care and Idon't think there's any
profession that is more in needof trauma-informed care than
massage therapy.
You could argue, even more sothan psychotherapy, but I mean
splitting hairs there.
But the thing is, withpsychotherapy you're not
touching people.
(20:50):
So massage has this veryspecial place where a lot of
things relevant to trauma comeup and all people think, oh yeah
, trauma touching people, sexualassault, of course, that's that
.
That reason alone would be areason.
But there are, there's so muchmore than that, um, and it
(21:12):
doesn't have, doesn't be,doesn't have to be about people
having traumatic experienceslike that.
It can be just more a deeperlevel around developmental
trauma and how people show upand relate to you and how do you
relate to them.
So it's really about optimizingthe client therapist
(21:34):
relationship so they feel moresafe.
Because if they don't feel safeor you, you know it's not
binary, it's all in continuum.
But I'll just say it in abinary way If they don't feel
safe, you're not going to get asmuch work accomplished.
Because, again, we're notworking with tissues, even
though people think we are.
We're working with the nervoussystem.
We're working withinteroception, and the nervous
(21:56):
system is going to just balk atyou if it doesn't have a sense
of safety.
So you got to start there.
You know the more you can do tohelp people feel safe in your
treatment room.
I think you know the moresuccess you'll have in other
realms, especially because italso relates to pain, and that's
(22:18):
what a lot of us are dealingwith is trying to help people
with pain.
So there's just a whole bunchthere where uh, you know my
students at the end of theprogram every year they just
they look at me like how in theworld could you not have a
trauma-informed massage?
Training like that's that'sinsane should be foundational.
Like that's insane Should be,foundational.
(22:40):
Yeah, it should be foundational,but it's hard to make it
foundational, which is somethingwe could talk about later.
But before we get to that,there's another thing there
about the trauma in the bodypart that you mentioned A lot of
people.
This is also a tissue-basedapproach, a tissue-based mindset
(23:00):
applied to the concept oftrauma.
To think that trauma is in thebody or is in a tissue that is
thinking with these tissuethought patterns, and you have
to understand that tissue is nota thing that can be extracted,
it's a pattern, it's aneuropsychological pattern.
It is not a thing that can beextracted, it's a pattern, it's
a neuropsychological pattern.
(23:21):
It is not a thing insidetissues.
And people think this waybecause they're like, oh, I was
rubbing their shoulder and thenthey started to cry yeah, well,
that doesn't mean something'sstored in your tissue, it means
that your nervous system isresponding and it's all
brain-based.
It has nothing to do withtissue, absolutely nothing.
And so to really, you know, tocombine the whole fascia model
(23:45):
thing and to and to blend thatwith trauma is like, you know,
two wrongs make an extra wrong,uh, element, and and you know
it's not too it's really notthat different, in a way, from
thinking that we're extractingdemons.
You know, if it was 200 yearsago, you know we're going to
extract trauma, we're going torelease trauma.
I'm going to release your, your, your fascia, which I can't do,
(24:07):
and then I'm going to releaseyour trauma, which I also can't
do.
Uh, that's kind of the mindset,right.
But if we understand thattrauma is a neuropsychological
pattern and it has all thisinteresting relationship between
interoceptive states and weunderstand that we're working
with the nervous system, then itbecomes way more interesting
about what we're doing and howwe're impacting people.
(24:30):
And we understand that justbecause they started they had an
emotional outburst of some kind, or emotional expression of
some kind, that's not healing.
For, first of all, like, likeweeping, is not healing.
Um, it may be useful or not,you know, but I mean, it's out
of our scope to try to work withthat, but.
(24:51):
But we can be, but it isdefinitely within our scope to
be with it.
I mean, if someone startscrying, just be a human being
and be there with them.
So that's not healing trauma,but that is being there with
people.
And I think if you can't bethere with people, that's also
not going to be safe.
(25:11):
So, you know, people ask well,how, what does this look like in
the actual room?
And we have kind of you know,dig into details there.
But you know we're not.
We're not going to say, oh, youknow, what are you crying about
?
You know, tell me about yourstory.
We're not doing that.
Eric (25:26):
Obviously, if they want to talk, you know there's no
reason we can't listen I like tothink of it and just to try to
really briefly simplify whatyou're saying is it's really
just a matter of just being agood human yeah just being a
compassionate caring other forthis person who is having an
(25:47):
experience, and we're just therefor them yeah would that be
accurate.
Mark (25:54):
Yeah, yeah yeah and and but.
But you know.
So I would say, everybody whotrains to be a massage therapist
thinks of themselves as aloving human being who wants to
make the world a better place.
I mean, that's probably a basewhere most people start.
That doesn't mean that we'reall equally good at it, though.
So that's the thing is oneperson might, you know, a lot of
(26:18):
times things come up and you'relike, well, I don't know what
to do right now.
I'm not really sure what to sayright now.
That would be helpful, butthere's, you know, one thing
that's not helpful is coming inwith an agenda which goes back
to this tissue model, like, oh,I'm going to, like, fix your
posture.
You know, to me the posturetopic comes back in with the
(26:42):
trauma topic of well, what ifthat person's posture is related
to their trauma?
Like, what if that's protective?
Like, do you want to quote,change it?
Um, that's adaptive.
You know, you're pathologizingit.
You can't have atrauma-informed approach and
pathologize anything.
You can't pathologize theirbehavior, you can't pathologize
their posture.
So just coming in with like, oh, okay, let's.
Um, you know, I see that yourshoulder isn't.
(27:03):
You know, the same on bothsides, so we're gonna fix that
that that doesn't fit into atrauma-informed approach in my
book I like.
Eric (27:13):
I like where you, we are, where you've gone with that mark
.
I think that's that's animportant thing for any of us to
really just embrace and andinto our practice.
Is that you said can'tpathologize anything, it's not
consistent or is inconsistentwith a trauma-informed um model.
(27:34):
Can you expand a little bit ordiscuss a bit more I'm sure you
can about that?
So what would you say, like sayin a course, or say in a
conversation with a therapistwho says you know, who notices
all of these postural changes insomeone, and the person the
patient, client, depending whereyou are, what you call them the
(27:55):
person comes in and says iscommenting on their posture.
Anywhere you are, what you callthem, the person comes in and
says is commenting on theirposture in a trauma-informed way
.
How would you have thatconversation without furthering
problematic behaviors or ideas?
Mark (28:12):
just to clarify the client is commenting on their posture,
or the therapist?
Eric (28:15):
the client is, because that happens sometimes, right,
they're like oh, my posture isso bad, and then, and then the
client, and then the therapistis, of course, oh yes it is, and
then just to yeah, have thatconversation yeah, yeah, well, I
mean, first of all, um, I'm notgoing to affirm any kind of
good or bad quality.
Mark (28:34):
I would try to steer.
Steer it towards you know well,how does it feel to you,
because that's ultimately what Icare about.
But I get what you're saying,that you know this is very
embedded in the culture, thatthere is a good and bad and that
people associate that like well, that's why I have back pain,
even though you're probablygoing to have back pain either
(28:55):
way.
So you know, but you know itgets put together because of the
way the culture is.
So you know, there's, there's,so there's no one answer to this
because it depends on what youthink they know and what kind of
relationship you have with them.
But there's lots of room foreducation about you know, hey,
(29:17):
you, hey, you know there, youknow you might be interested in
knowing that a lot of people,you know that hasn't been there,
hasn't been a found, acorrelation between these things
you know.
So you know it's one way toexplore why, why, that's the
position that you like, you knowdo you want to be in a
(29:38):
different position?
Why do you want to be in thatdifferent position?
And I mean, I think I wouldhave to know a little bit more
about the you know thisimaginary person too, because
one of the elements that I thatI find really interesting about
posture is that it's it's notjust this structural thing, it's
this psychological thing, andwe know that, yeah, if you're
(30:02):
sad you'll look one way and ifyou're proud you'll look another
, but also it's the oppositedirection too, that if you don't
want to feel something that'strue for you, you can put on a
posture that blocks it, like trystanding at like military
attention and feeling grief.
It's basically, it's next toimpossible.
(30:25):
You know, if I was, you know,talking with you right now and I
started and I felt like I wasgoing to cry, I could like move
my body around in a certain wayto make sure I don't cry.
Yeah, yeah, but I could do thatfor the rest of my life too.
You know, I could be like Ifeel like crying, but like
crying, but I don't want to dealwith that.
So I'm just going to walkaround real stiff and make sure
I don't feel that way.
Okay, so that client walkinginto the office, that person who
(30:49):
I just kind of have a sensethat that posture has this whole
psychological story about ithas.
This whole psychological storyabout it is going to be
different than somebody whoseems like you know, their
posture really isn't aboutpsychology.
It doesn't seem like that's.
That's really what's going onfor them.
Not that I'm going to say, oh,I think your posture is about
(31:11):
psychology.
We're obviously not doing that.
But you know, you still get asense.
Yeah.
Eric (31:16):
Yeah.
Whether it's about psychologyor whether it's about some type
of adaptive thing, because theyhurt yeah no, you mean yeah,
yeah right.
Mark (31:25):
Right, because you know, maybe they're one shoulders
higher, because when it's thesame, that doesn't feel good.
It's just a simple nociceptivenot necessarily simple, but it's
nociceptive in its basisWhereas somebody else comes in
and they're walking around theway they are because of the
psychology.
So I think those are verydifferent.
Those are going to be, thoseare going to take different
(31:48):
courses perhaps.
Eric (31:51):
Yeah, I mean that's a great.
I love that.
And what I was really kind ofgetting at I think you kind of
you did a great job answering isthat it depends, it's gray,
it's uncertain, it and that'swhere it comes down to the being
okay with not having all of theanswers, but just trying to be
(32:13):
less wrong in what we're doing.
And this is something that Ifeel is so necessary with us in
our profession.
Doesn't matter whether incanada, the us, anywhere in the
world, is that we?
Yes, it's nice to simplifythings because it gives us like
clear, linear process.
But if we're speaking ofposture and we see that posture
is it psychological, is itnociceptive in nature, is it
(32:37):
structural our approach is goingto be different for each of
them.
Is it nociceptive in nature?
Is it structural?
Our approach is going to bedifferent for each of them.
But we don't need, we can't tryto fix it, we shouldn't try to
fix it.
But there's so often that beliefthat.
So maybe the example I startedoff with we said, well, the
client comes in, but maybe theclient comes in, but maybe the
(32:58):
client comes.
I got back pain.
And then the therapist looks atthem and it's like, ah, it's
because of you know, your righthip, your right An ominous is,
is elevated and rotated, andyou're you got this S curve in
your spine, whatever.
Blah, blah, blah.
That's not helpful.
Yeah, yeah it's leading you downthe wrong path, often of your,
your, uh clinical reasoning yeah, they don't know that at all.
Mark (33:23):
Yeah, I mean, they'd have to have god's eyes to be able to
see what's initiating thosenociceptive signals, and nobody
can have that.
So, um, yeah, I mean, I thinkthe one, I mean there's the it
depends is the answer.
But also, be curious and humbleis the answer.
Yeah, and that's that's likethe one thing that you can say
(33:46):
for sure.
Right is you know, if youexplore with curiosity, I mean I
, I think that will always leadsomewhere.
Eric (33:53):
Good, yes, 100 agree.
And that's the one thing Ioften, I always say in my
courses too is people like whatdo you do here?
I'm like, just be curious.
You know there's no bestapproach, there's no best
technique, there's no bestmodality or intervention for for
a lot of the stuff.
Just be curious and askquestions and just try stuff to
see and be humble yeah and and Ithink that is what I found from
(34:19):
talking to you and from othersand just from my own journey is
that approach, that curiosity,that explorative, uh, that
humble approach seems to be?
I'm going to say I don't know.
It needs a name to make itsound sexy and you could sell it
so people would take thosecourses.
You know, if it was the, youput that into an acronym.
Mark (34:41):
You know the humble, curious, explorative.
Eric (34:46):
Make it, make it into like a four-letter acronym.
People would buy that theywould eat that up.
But when you're teaching acourse and you're and you're not
providing, like this is theanswer, that can be a hard sell
for some people who aren't thereyet.
Mark (35:03):
Yeah, well, especially since we're dealing with
something that has consequences.
Pain has consequences, so youdo want to have an answer.
I mean, who doesn't?
Eric (35:14):
want to Do I hurt.
Mark (35:14):
Yeah, yeah, I mean, but if anybody could give that answer,
you know they'd be, they'd be,you know, making a lot of money,
if, well, I guess she can makea lot of money without the
answer.
But uh, yeah, it's a prettytough question to add to, to to
answer accurately, and we allwish we could do it, but it's's
(35:36):
just too complex to do it.
Eric (35:43):
Well, this kind of goes, I think, to your expertise as a
neuroscientist and as someonewho has a PhD in neuroscience
and is a body worker.
Let's talk a bit about yourkind of like a neuroscience
approach, Like what's happeningfrom your perspective or from
from what you know when we'redoing work.
What's happening from aneuroscience perspective and you
(36:05):
can be as deep.
You can be as detailed and asin-depth and technical as you'd
like.
Mark (36:11):
Okay, great yeah, well, um , I have this whole model that's
built out that demonstratesthis visually.
So this is one of my favoritethings to talk about.
Well, I mean, you have tounderstand how pain works first.
So you have to realize thatwe've got the tissue inputs and
(36:34):
then we've got spinal activity,and then that goes up to the
thalamus and then that goes upto limbic structures, so you
have that ascending pathway, andthen you have to understand
that there's also thisdescending pathway, coming back
down to the spinal cord.
That's like a basis tounderstand where we're going to
(36:59):
interface with this.
We also have to understand thatwe have immune and endocrine
responses that are just kind ofgenerating this chemical soup
that the nervous system lives in, that's affecting how all that
signaling is going to go at allof those points, at any or all
of those points.
(37:19):
So what do we do?
You know, we're not changingtissues.
We might notice changes intissues, but those aren't
actually.
We're not making changes to thetissue mechanically.
They might be respondingbecause the nervous system is
responding.
So the you know, uh, we'reproviding, we're doing two
things we're providing a touchinput and we're providing a
(37:43):
relational input.
You know, because we exist associal creatures in the same
room with them, and so I'm notgoing to provide the same touch
input in one situation oranother situation.
If I have good therapeuticresonance with them, that's
going to have a differentoutcome than if I have poor
therapeutic resonance, and sothat cannot be underestimated.
(38:03):
You know this is person, thisis.
Am I conveying that this is asafe place?
Do I look like somebody whoknows what they're doing?
Did this person have positiveexperiences before with me or
with other people?
You know, all of those thingsare filtering in that ultimately
are going to influence thatdescending signal which we think
of as, as you know, placebo.
(38:27):
But placebo is not thisethereal thing, it's this actual
neural signal that goes fromone part of the nervous system
to another part of the nervoussystem.
So that's one way we'redefinitely affecting, we're
influencing that descendingsignal, which for some people
might be more useful than others, depending on how well that
signal is working for them.
(38:48):
We're also moving tissuesaround and by providing input we
are creating signals that mightshout louder than what the
current signals that they have.
So if they have, you know, cfibers that are complaining at a
certain level, we're providingtouch input that could inhibit
(39:08):
that, or at least just shoutlouder than it for some period
of time.
So a lot of people think, ohyeah, you just did something
magical for me, but it wasn't.
We just, you know, we just dida bunch of smoke.
Think, oh yeah, you just didsomething magical for me, but it
wasn't.
We just did a bunch of smokeand mirrors for you, which is a
useful thing to do, but wedidn't actually change the
source of that.
And then we're also providingrelaxation, which is going to
(39:33):
change those endocrine and maybeimmune responses in a more
longer term.
Exactly how long, I don't knowif anybody knows.
Um, but there's a wholebootstrapping process, right.
So there's the what are wedoing during that one hour
versus how are we helping peoplein a longer term?
And you know, in a tissue-basedmodel, people are like, oh, I
(39:54):
don't want to do that feelingstuff, I just want to do this,
like change the tissue stuff.
But we don't do tissue.
So what we are doing ischanging how we feel, and from
how we feel, other things couldchange.
From there, you know, we mighthave different endocrine
responses, different immuneresponses, um, so you know, I I
(40:18):
mean there's a whole bunch morethat I could say but I mean,
that's kind of a real quickoverview, yeah.
Eric (40:26):
Yeah, it's not as simple as just your.
You know traditional narrativesI'm increasing circulation, I'm
, you know, decreasing muscletone, I am like it's all
mechanical right, or I'm movinglymph around or I'm releasing
fascia, whatever that means.
You know, breaking apart thoseadhesions, I guess kind of
traditional stuff.
It's way more complex than thatbecause I like what you said.
(40:48):
You said it's not just a touchinput, but there's also a
relational input and that and Iguess we'll go back and combine
that idea with goes with thetrauma informed, where there's
that relational aspect andthat's where a lot of the people
can't see this, but in airquotes, that's where the change
is going to occur is acombination of these things, you
(41:14):
being a good person who'ssupportive and caring and
providing touch that ismeaningful to the person on the
table yeah, I mean, if youpeople came in and we didn't
actually touch them and thenthey left, they'd, they'd
probably feel a little better.
Mark (41:30):
Or if we, you know, on the first day of class, you know,
for me I have my students justput their hands on the client
for a half hour my students justput their hands on the client
for a half hour and you know, toembed the idea that you don't
have to do anything fancy tomake people feel better, you
just have to be, you know,attuned to them and feel, help
them feel, safe.
Now I will say that there, I dothink that there is some room
(41:53):
for like micro circulatorychanges, not the normal
circulatory story that peopletalk about, but I do think that
there's ways that maybeperipheral nerves are not happy
and maybe we are helping them bea little more happy on a micro
scale.
Eric (42:12):
So there's that the DNM idea of like.
The DNM idea of like changingthe circulation and the
nutrients to the cutaneousnerves.
Is that what you're?
Mark (42:26):
referring to yeah, yeah, so, to whatever extent you know,
someone's pain is based onirritation of peripheral nerves,
then, yeah, that seems like avery viable explanation for some
of the things that we're doing.
Eric (42:44):
One thing I'm curious about and I'll admit that I know
enough to know that I don'tknow enough about the DNM,
because I know it's used as anexplanatory model.
Based on your knowledge ofneuroscience, does it make sense
?
Mark (43:03):
I mean what I know of DNM.
That makes sense to me, but Ican't say that I've read it in a
while to really answer thatquestion as well as I might like
to or you might like to.
Eric (43:22):
No.
Mark (43:24):
I usually give it a thumbs up all the time.
Eric (43:27):
I think it's a less wrong approach or less wrong
understanding.
I think it makes more sense.
If we're talking aboutneuroscience, then we are our.
Most of our impact is occurringthrough nerves through sensory
nerves and the counter receptorsin the skin and upper layers of
the connective tissues.
That makes sense to me, basedon my understanding, but I don't
(43:48):
know if it's I want it to makesense or there's actually
evidence for it.
Mark (43:51):
So I that's where I get skeptical evidence you know, for
it's kind of hard to come by,you know it's hard to come by
evidence for any of these things.
But just you know, just intheory.
You know just on understandingneuroscience, in theory, uh, it
works.
And you know now if, if we'resaying all pain issues that we
(44:13):
see in our treatment rooms is isabout peripheral nerves, and I
would say, no, I doubt that'strue.
But so you know, I think wehave to understand there's a lot
of complexity, there's a lot ofdifferent sources for what it
is.
I mean, some person might havefibromyalgia and it's about, you
know, descending modulation notworking properly.
(44:34):
Another person has this issuewith their peripheral nerves.
Another person has neuralinflammation.
You know it's endocrine issueor autoimmune issue.
I mean there's all thesedifferent points that it could
be and I think that you knowthey're going to show up
differently and respond todifferent treatments.
Eric (44:57):
For sure.
There's not a one-size-fits-allapproach which makes sense.
My understanding and I'm notbad-mouthing DNM, I just kind of
came up with it as you weretalking about the
microcirculatory thing is that Ithink as long I like the model,
the explanatory model, fromwhat I've understood from it,
and I did take a DNM courseyears ago, which was interesting
(45:17):
.
It was did take a dnm course, uh, years ago, uh, which was
interesting, it was good.
Um, what is that?
It seems to make sense formechanical things like
positional movement.
It hurts when I do this thingbecause you're loading or
unloading tissues differentlyand I'm like, yeah, that makes
sense.
And then you try to make thatnerve, nerves, that area, feel
better, whatever you create somechange in the how it, the
(45:43):
transmission, whatever it mightbe.
Maybe you alter the noxiousstimuli somehow, whatever it
might be, and yeah, it's like,oh, that feels better now but,
you know, I guess it's likeanything you're saying in your
first day of your students.
You're putting your hands onpeople.
You don't have to do a lotsometimes for people to feel
better.
So I think that oftentimes,when we're looking at newer
(46:05):
approaches or newer models, Ithink we also have to be
skeptical of them, to say thatthis approach seems to be
working, but it might not beworking for the reasons you
think.
But just be humble about it yeah, maybe it's maybe it's more
than maybe just blaming thosecutaneous nerves isn't enough
maybe if what say the one time?
Like if you're just you saying,oh, it's just the cutaneous
(46:26):
nerves, that's what you need towork on those that's kind of
this very uh reductive approach,just like saying you just need
to work on fascia.
It doesn't work that way,because you're that's, that's
too's too simple.
Mark (46:37):
Yeah, yeah, I mean, I think, understanding.
I think that's a great positivestep.
You know, like I teach, youknow students, that you know,
hey, when we talk about Whoa,that client wanted their
rhomboids worked on, or theywanted their erectors worked on,
yeah, is it really about that?
Is it really their rhomboids oris it their dorsal scapular
(46:59):
nerve?
Because look at where thedorsal scapular nerve is like,
let's think about that.
Or let's think about wherethose um, you know, the, the ram
eye come up through the tissuealong the back.
That's just where everybodywants to receive their massages.
So maybe it's not about thosemuscles at all, it's about these
(47:20):
nerves.
So I think that's a hugepositive step for the massage
industry to think in those terms.
And then the next layer of thatwould be to get more into
central processing and endocrinesystems and stuff like that.
Sure, yeah, it's a step in theright direction, I agree.
Eric (47:38):
Endocrine systems and stuff like that, sure, yeah,
it's a step in the rightdirection.
I I agree.
Is that, like when I was inmassage school you know it was
over 20 years ago now the wedidn't.
We learned about nerves but wedidn't really learn about them
unless it was like a, like alarge peripheral nerve, like the
median nerve or the ulnar nerveor the sciatic.
Like we learned about them andwhen those are problem, we never
, like I don't ever rememberlearning about like the dorsal
(47:59):
ram eye, other than like we hadto be able to identify them on a
diagram but we never talkedabout oh, this person might have
these symptoms in this areabecause this nerve might be
cranky, yeah, and needs to beunloaded or needs more
microcircuit, like that was justsomething that was never
addressed.
It was always muscles fascia yepand insuligaments I agree it's
(48:22):
a step in the right directionmostly that way still yeah, yeah
, and I guess, just as a as akind of a final kind of
discussion point or just thingto just hear your comments on,
is that these conversations likeyou and I are having and people
have been having these for along time now about these, the
challenging, these old models.
Now maybe it's just myobservations, but it feels like
(48:45):
in maybe the last decade or so,10-15 years, there's more of
these conversations having about, like this, neuroscience,
neuroimmune, you know,trauma-informed, all these
buzzwords, biopsychosocial painscience, all these these things
are starting to be talking aboutmore, but we still don't see
any meaningful change in thekind of a culture or the
(49:07):
educational competencies.
And that's something that I'mreally focused on probably more
energy on than I need to is ontrying to have conversations and
with the stakeholders that areinvolved in making these, these
kind of systemic changes there'sa lot of words.
I didn't have a question.
There was a statement, I guess.
But what are your thoughts onwhat would be ideal or what do
(49:30):
you think it would be a good wayto create more of these
meaningful changes in education,like you did at your school,
like how is that done?
Mark (49:39):
yeah, it is a very hard problem to solve because, you
know, I did it because I justhappened to have a phd in
neuroscience, right, so not toomany folks are in that
particular position, right, Imean most people.
If they have, you know, if theyhave that education, they're
(50:00):
probably not teaching, at leastin the united states, they're
probably not teaching at amassage school, you know.
So, to getting the level ofeducation that we want into
massage school, you know thatthey'd have to pay more, and a
lot of times they don't pay verywell, it's not really.
You know, just in the logisticsof that it's a challenging
(50:26):
model.
You know, to make it work you'dhave to raise tuition and then,
um, you know, but then peoplewould have to think that they're
going to make more money ratherthan working at Massage Envy.
So there's already a decline, atleast in the United States, of
people going in to massage.
(50:46):
Now it's been going on for overa decade.
So that's part of the wholeequation is just simple
financial elements.
Even if we could solve the, themindset elements, so I don't
really have any great solutions.
It's the same problem withtrauma-informed, you know.
(51:07):
I say, hey, we should all betrauma-informed, but what it
takes to do that is verydifficult because you actually
need people teaching thatmaterial that have enough
education to not be dangerous.
If you only have a little bityou know, you kind of get this
sophomoric level of knowledgewhere you claim you know
something but you actually don't, and it makes it worse.
(51:29):
So, um, I don't know, but youknow also.
Maybe little by little is theway.
Eric (51:39):
Yeah, and I think that the little by little is creating
communities of therapists andjust people you teach, people
who take your courses orstudents that you've taught and
that kind of creating that kindof groundswell of support.
And the San Diego Pain Summitwas kind of like that well of
support and, uh, you know, theSan Diego Pain Summit was kind
of like that.
(52:00):
It felt like at the beginning,uh, we talked before we started.
That that was kind of reallypushed me into my direction or
it kind of gave me some languageand some understanding and some
resources to put piecestogether from that conference
the first one was in 2015 that Iwent to and that really.
I left that conference with alot of excitement about, okay,
this, this can be done, you know, and and.
(52:22):
So I went and it totallychanged the trajectory of my, my
professional life, which isgood, I'm happy.
I'm happy I'd happen.
But the one thing that came outof that was that trying to
change things at a systemiclevel is almost impossible.
Mark (52:38):
Yeah.
Eric (52:39):
It has to be, uh, smaller, community based, and so you get
more people talking about thesethings, more people in the
education that will go intopositions of authority or
leadership or education.
And so that's the hope, but Ido still feel that sometimes I
just wish there was more thatwas done.
Mark (53:00):
And you know people like yourself.
Eric (53:01):
Teaching at schools like that and being able to to just
say this is how we're going todo things to me is very
inspiring, because I think thatis.
We need more of that.
But again, you said you needthe education, because a little
bit of knowledge could actuallybe a problem, you don't?
Mark (53:19):
know enough.
One thing I might just addreally quick.
Um, just so people know thatit's not a state law thing.
It's not about the state sayingthis is what you should teach
or not.
I mean there are like this ishow many hours of this and that
you should teach, but they don'tget into any more detail than
that.
They'll just say 200 hours ofanatomy and then they don't
(53:43):
really break it down after that.
I don't know of any state thatsays you need to teach this many
hours about.
Pain.
Like pain is not even listed,which is crazy so it's crazy,
but at the same time it alsomeans that nobody's keeping
anybody from teaching thematerial correctly.
It's not like there's thesevolumes saying you need to teach
(54:08):
that, it's all about muscles.
Nobody's saying you have to dothat, so there's room for it.
It's just a matter of theschools wanting to do it.
And I think you know, maybe ifthere was some kind of like
stamp that we could have, youknow, be giving to each other
that you know we'reneuro-informed, or something
like that, and we would build upa hey, if you're hiring
(54:31):
teachers from around the countrybecause that's what I did, I
hired teachers from around thecountry.
I couldn't be findingtrauma-informed, neuro-centric
teachers just on Kauai.
I had to find people all overNorth America.
Same thing.
Maybe we could encourage thatlike hey, I'm a school that
hires neuro-informed,trauma-informed you know faculty
(54:55):
that maybe that'll be a thing,I don't know.
Eric (54:57):
Yeah, I like that idea and there's yeah, I know of a
couple schools in Canada thathave done that, but you know
there's hundreds of schools hereand I'm sure there's hundreds
or thousands even in the uspopulation is much bigger, uh,
that that are doing that butit's, it's.
Yeah, it's bite-sized, but it's.
It's better than nobody doingit yeah yeah.
(55:19):
So now that you're, you've leftkuai and you're, you're, you're
back in florida.
Where do you, where do youdoing with yourself?
Now?
You're not running a schoolthere.
Mark (55:28):
I'm not running a school.
I am teaching classes online,and that's you know.
I love teaching at the schooland I thought this is great, but
I want to be working with morethan a few dozen people a year.
I want to like.
All this material really needsto be out there on a larger
plane, so I teach classes onlineall the time on these very
(55:49):
topics that we were discussing.
Eric (55:51):
Nice, and how can people find you if they're looking for
you, mark?
Mark (55:54):
They can go to my website at drrolsoncom.
That's D-R-O-L-S-O-Ncom.
Okay.
Eric (56:01):
And I'll put that in the show notes too.
And just as one last bit, justin case anyone's curious, do you
want to just share yourfeelings about the current
political state and you're in ofall the places that you?
Could be you're in Florida.
Mark (56:14):
We already talked about fascia.
So I'm an anti-fascia personand I'm also an anti-fascist and
I'm not very happy aboutfascism that we're dealing with.
And I'm not very happy aboutthe fascism that we're dealing
with, and I happen to be in atown which is kind of central to
a lot of this you knowright-wing agenda so I'm kind of
(56:38):
in the heart of this.
I'm looking forward toparticipating in the protests.
Yeah, got to change protests.
Yeah, we've got to change it.
Eric (56:50):
Is there protests going on there now in Florida?
Mark (56:55):
Do you have to?
Eric (56:56):
leave Florida to protest.
No.
Mark (57:00):
I mean this is going to date your thing here, but the
19th of April is a big deal.
We're aiming for 11 millionprotests around the country.
It points back to an event 250years ago, right before the
United States started, wherethere were protests.
So it's got a long history andwe're going to follow that and
(57:23):
continue that and if we get 11million, it reaches this
threshold.
So have usually creates change.
Anyway, there's a lot there.
Eric (57:32):
I wish I was canadian right now yeah, yeah, it's for
all us canadian, so it's it's.
This whole thing is veryheartbreaking and and very, very
sad and what I don't like youknow, to avoid political talks,
but I think right now, in thecontext of this conversation,
it's probably good to address ita little bit.
(57:54):
It's terrible because what Ifeel happening is that so many
Canadians are so upset becauseof all the annexation threats
and all the anti-Canadianrhetoric coming from the
administration that Canadiansare now like and I'm
generalizing, you see, this isjust media are anti-American.
Mark (58:17):
Yeah.
Eric (58:18):
Like well, you can't be anti, because not every American
is a MAGA supporter themajority of them are not but yet
everyone gets painted with thesame brush and I think that
that's unfair, because I have alot of american friends.
I have a lot of canadian goodfriends that live in the us and
(58:40):
are kind of like what the hellis going on?
Like?
this is crazy yeah it's just,it's, it's a, it's a, it's a
very.
I think it's one of thosethings in history.
We're gonna look back and we'relike what the hell happened and
how did this happen?
Mark (58:53):
yeah, well, I hope we are able to look back like that and
even if it's not logical, it'sstill understandable.
I mean the it's it's.
It's understandable to be just,you know, at I don't even know
where it is right now, butbesieged with the emotion of it.
Eric (59:12):
So yeah rage yeah yeah, it makes me very sad too.
So well, thanks, mark.
That was fantastic.
I really enjoyed thatconversation.
I would.
We had a lot more things totalk about, so maybe we'll have
to schedule another one in thefuture.
Uh, I will, yeah, that'd begreat.
I had a great time and then, uh, yeah, people can get in touch
with you if they have anyquestions or want to see what
(59:33):
you're all about.
Mark (59:33):
Thank you thank you, yeah, thank you so much thank you for
listening.
Eric (59:41):
Please subscribe so you can be notified of all future
episodes.
Purpose versus is alsoavailable to watch on YouTube.
If you enjoyed this episode,please like, subscribe and share
to your favorite social mediaplatforms.
If you'd like to connect withme, I can be reached through my
website, thecebecom, or send mea DM through either Facebook or
(01:00:01):
Instagram at ericpurvisrmt.
Popular Podcasts
Cold Case Files: Miami
Joyce Sapp, 76; Bryan Herrera, 16; and Laurance Webb, 32—three Miami residents whose lives were stolen in brutal, unsolved homicides.  Cold Case Files: Miami follows award‑winning radio host and City of Miami Police reserve officer  Enrique Santos as he partners with the department’s Cold Case Homicide Unit, determined family members, and the advocates who spend their lives fighting for justice for the victims who can no longer fight for themselves.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.