Palliative and Hospice Massage in a Death Avoidant Culture with Ashley Brzezicki

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:08):
Hello and welcome to another episode of Purvis Versus
.
My name is Eric Purvis.
I'm a massage therapist, coursecreator, continuing education
provider, curriculum advisor andadvocate for evidence-based
massage therapy.
In this episode, we welcomeAshley Brzezki, who is an RMT
and death doula at New Brunswick.
Ashley has an interestingbackground in anthropology and
she uses this education area ofinterest to educate RMTs on

(00:30):
working in a death-avoidantculture.
In this episode, we discuss theimportance of holding space with
compassion for those who areterminally ill, living with a
degenerative health carecondition or are experiencing
grief and loss.
Our conversation moves onevidence-based practice and the
problems we feel thestakeholders have with adopting
this into their curriculum andpractice standards.
My key takeaway from ourdiscussion was to remember we

(00:53):
need to focus on treating theperson and not their disease.
If you enjoyed this episode,please rate it and share it on
your favorite social mediaplatforms.
You can also support my podcastby making a donation by
visiting buymeacoffeecom.
Purvis Versus can also be foundon YouTube, so please check us
out there and subscribe.

(01:14):
So thanks for being here and Ihope you enjoy this episode.
Hello everybody, and welcome toanother episode of Purvis Versus
.
Today we have Ashley Brzezkihere, coming from New Brunswick.
I'm excited to have her to talkabout her journey as a CE
provider as well as herexperiences being an RMT in the
province of New Brunswick.
She's got some new content newcourse hopefully coming out soon

(01:38):
.
I know she presented recentlyat a massage therapy conference
in Halifax.
So thanks, ashley, for beinghere.
Tell us a little bit more aboutyourself and about what you're
all about.

Speaker 2 (01:51):
Thanks so much for having me.
I'm so excited to talk.
I feel like we've been waitingfor a minute to have this
conversation, so I'm glad tofinally be here.
My focus is on creating contentthat will help massage
therapists be more comfortablecatering to a client demographic

(02:14):
where they might be facingterminal illness, their own
mortality or really anydegenerative condition where
they suddenly have to considerthese big existential questions
their own mortality.
I find that that is in terms ofcontent.
I find that lacking in massagetherapy programs when you're

(02:37):
learning to become a licensedmassage therapist.
So that is and that comes froma place where I've had my own
personal experiences navigatingmy own death avoidance and
recognizing at a point that Ican't provide the kind of
quality care that I want toprovide to people if I'm a death

(02:59):
avoidant healthcare providerBecause you never know who's
going to walk in through thedoor, right, you might be
treating someone for four yearsand all of a sudden they've got
terminal cancer and having aspace where you already have a
certain level of self-awarenesswith your own hangups with
mortality, so that you can holdspace for another person and not

(03:19):
say anything that might triggerthem to feel isolated or
defeated or like you don't wantto listen to their story.
I think that's incrediblyvaluable, and there's just not
enough out there yet, so that'swhat I'm looking to provide
Lovely.

Speaker 1 (03:33):
Is that an interesting niche.
It's so unique Like I would saythat you're probably the only
massage therapist I've everheard of that is interested or
passionate about this thing.
And, of course, death avoidanthappens to all of us, happens to
everything, so why not talkabout it?
I think that's really somethingthat's necessary.

(03:56):
Do you want to share at allwhere this came from for you?
Why did you decide to tacklethis Absolutely?

Speaker 2 (04:05):
Yeah, absolutely.
I find that to you know.
Now, on the other side of thestory, it's been 20 years.
On the other side of the story,I can recognize this as a
bittersweet gem in my life thathas opened up a level of
self-awareness and compassionthat I initially I wouldn't have

(04:26):
identified.
This I'm going to call it atrauma because that's what it
was.
I didn't identify it as the gemthat it was, as the gift that
it was.
At the time I had to makemeaning out of that experience
and build an identity for myselfaround it.
And now I'm in a place whereI'm leaving it into my clinical
practice.

(04:46):
So the story goes.
I'm raised first of all in adeath avoidant culture.
So in the West we have a deeplydeath avoidant culture.
We don't like to talk aboutdeath.
We don't like to think aboutour own death.
On some level we'reneurobiologically wired to avoid
death.
But there is a differencebetween it just creates a lot of

(05:14):
unnecessary suffering when weavoid it, when we avoid it to
such a degree right, because nowall of a sudden, a death is
coming either way and whenyou're facing it at the end of
your life and you haven't beenin a supportive place in a
supportive culture that dares tolook at it, then you're
struggling with a lot ofexistential questions on your
own.
So death avoidance is acultural failing it's not an

(05:38):
individual failing and I thinkit's way too big a burden for
people to be tasked with dealingwith these big questions on
their own, and that is actuallywhat I found myself doing when I
was younger.
So this thing that set a newtrajectory, a new path for
myself, happened in high school.

(05:58):
Like I said, I was raised by adeath avoidant culture, but also
my parents were incrediblydeath avoidant and kind of still
are.
So my parents are Polish.
I come from an immigrant family.
My parents were raised bypeople that went through the
Second World War and I think asa generational trauma kind of

(06:21):
thing, they probably were raisedby the people who probably
didn't get to focus on loss anddeath and grief to a degree
where maybe it would have beenhelpful for them not to
completely avoid it.
So I was raised by the productof that.
There was another overlappingthing.
So when this specific momenthappened in my life, I really

(06:43):
didn't have a chance to look atdeath to begin with anyways.
I mean, even the family dog wasstill alive, like I had no
healthcare concerns in thefamily, all of my friends and
their families were intact, likeit was literally something I
never had to face.
I was healthy, vital, youthful.
In high school I decided to geta volunteer position at the

(07:06):
hospital in my city and therewas this one day where I was
walking through the hallway goback in time three or so months
and he told me that our nextdoor neighbor was diagnosed with
terminal cancer and then hewouldn't be coming home.
And because I was raised deathavoidant, I didn't know what to
do with that.
So I just kind of did theprotective thing, tucked it into

(07:28):
a box in my mind and threw itout the window and I just never
looked at it again.
And then all of a sudden I findmyself at the hospital and I've
pretty well all but forgottenabout my neighbor and I look
over and the only thing that Icould recognize on his body were
his eyes, because he had justdeclined so much in his health.

(07:49):
And in that moment, because Iwent from zero to 60, I went
from not looking at deathwhatsoever, not wanting to
consider it, to suddenly beingsmacked upside the head with it.
I did something reflexive andself protective.

(08:10):
And now, in hindsight, Irecognize that I did the best
that I could with what I had atthe time.
But I sacrificed humanconnection for my own sense of
safety.
So I just walked on.
I carried the trauma of thatand the shame of that for such a
long time.
I really felt like it was afailure of my humanity.

(08:32):
Because I recognized I feelthis is my perception that I
feel I recognized a kind ofpleading in his eyes that I was
too afraid to show up for, I wastoo afraid of having, you know,
holding space for him.
And I remember the feeling ofjust almost leaving my body in

(08:55):
that moment.
And then my legs felt like theystarted moving without me and
all of a sudden I'm walking downthe hallway thinking to myself
on my head like, oh no, whathave I just done?
Like I just completelyabandoned him in his moment of
need.
So yeah, that was the momentthat led me down this path of
like just having this horribleexistential dread for years.

(09:17):
And it wasn't until I enteredmore advanced courses in
anthropology in my undergraduatedegree and in my masters that I
really recognized, becauseanthropology is the scientific
study of humankind across timeand culture, and it wasn't until
we started looking at the way,the differences between Western

(09:41):
traditions and Easterntraditions that I really started
recognizing.
I'm sure I'm death avoidant bynurturing at home, but also
culturally we're not.
We're not holding space wellfor death and dying and our own
mortality here.
And that was when I startedhealing.
I didn't know that I washealing at the time, but that's

(10:01):
when I started deconstructing myown biases and beliefs about
death and dying.
And now I'm at the point where Ifeel like I've done enough work
around, that I have a.
I can hold it much more gentlywith myself than I used to be
able to, and you know yourjourney throughout your own

(10:23):
mortality.
There's always going to bedifferent layers of the onion to
unpack.
So it's not like the, it's notlike you ever reach a
destination and being okay withdying, but to a degree you
definitely lessen your ownsuffering and potentially the
suffering of other people,specifically if you're a
healthcare provider, right.

(10:44):
So that's, that's kind of whereI come from.
That's the history behind it,and, yeah, Wow, so that's very
powerful Actually.

Speaker 1 (10:52):
So thanks, thanks for sharing that.
It's funny.
I never really think about itbefore.
About the, you said you know weare raised in a death avoid
culture, which is so truebecause it's like death.
Is this, this one thing that wedon't really want to talk about
?
Just one thing that you knowit's obviously extremely sad
when we lose people that areclose to us, but it's not talked

(11:15):
about very much until we getolder.
Like you hear about it and youknow our parents and
grandparents and then elderlypeople we know they talk about
it.

Speaker 2 (11:24):
But people our age.

Speaker 1 (11:25):
We're young ish.
Yeah, we should be.
We should have many years left.
Yeah, it's, it's.
It's something you just, youjust ignore.
Yes, and I think that I've neverreally thought about that until
you said this right now that Icould see.
I can see where you're comingfrom and how shameful that can
be.
I think the words you used wereyou said you were self

(11:46):
protective and you kind ofwalked on and you kind of since
felt shame afterwards.
And that's probably the samewith a lot of us.
And if I think of my earlyexperiences with people dying
and my first memory of knowingsomeone that passed away was a
neighbor of ours, who's verylovely old man that my dad used
to go golfing with and he justdied in golf course one day at a

(12:10):
heart attack, and I remembergoing to his funeral and and and
feeling like not sure what todo, how to deal with these
emotions, like I didn't.
I knew him but I was like 1314years old but I didn't really
know how to feel or what to feel, and it was because I never
talked about it before.

Speaker 2 (12:30):
Yeah, absolutely.
You know, what's interestingabout that is that this I kind
of, I kind of lied in a sense.
This was a moment that stoodout for me as a big trauma
moment, but actually my first,and this is the way that it goes
for so many people, right, thisis all cultural, societal
training.
When we're kids, we know thatkids start wrapping their head

(12:52):
around the fact that you know,if you step on an ant and it's
not moving anymore, something'schanged and you're the reason
why, right, and you startdeveloping your sense of empathy
and you start wrapping yourhead around the fact that, oh,
like things can die.
I was taken without permissionby my godmother to awake, so my

(13:16):
parents didn't provide yes, sobig move, big move.
And what I remember from that?
Because I do remember themoment that and it was the first
time I'd ever gone to aceremony where someone had
deceased I remember the momentthat I saw this woman in the

(13:37):
casket and I remember thinkinglike, oh, she doesn't really
look alive, like that, doesn't.
You know?
And I'm a young, I'm a fairlyyoung person, I'm probably six,
seven, eight years old, max andI just kind of carried on.
It wasn't this traumatic thingthat people would expect it to

(13:57):
be.
But it wasn't until I got homeand my mother yelled at my.
I remember that there are beinga very this was a very big deal
, right, a very big deal.
And I remember just the feelingof like, okay, I wasn't scared.
But now clearly something'swrong, because they're very

(14:18):
upset about this and I, you know, I get it to a degree.
But the point of that story isthe way that society responds to
death when it happens, the waythat parents respond to their
kids.
Having natural questions aboutdeath is also social, cultural
conditioning, right.
So we kind of we were raised ina death avoiding culture.

(14:42):
Those natural questions arekind of beaten out of us because
we have them when we have themwhen we're kids.
But then we learn that it'sinappropriate to discuss this
sort of thing.
And then you find yourself, youknow, dealing with an acute
situation of you know a terminaldiagnosis, or you know your

(15:03):
best friend dies or somethinglike that, and all of a sudden
this thing that you were neverallowed to discuss is suddenly
overflowing your plate and youdon't know how to handle it,
because we're not taught how tohandle it.
So the moment that sticks outfor me isn't when I saw death
for the first time as a child.
It's when it's the many yearsbetween that moment and the

(15:24):
moment where I was a teenager,in high school, where I was
taught a lot of times,unconsciously, that death is
this dirty thing that we're notallowed to talk about it.
It's inappropriate, and if youbring it up, you know you're
going to be sociallydisconnected because people will
turn away from you instead ofleaning in.

Speaker 1 (15:46):
I feel that these are things that we are all like.
Everything you're saying, I'mlike yeah, I totally agree with,
like you're so spot on withthat, but we don't have these
conversations.
People don't have thoseconversations, and I'm assuming
that's why you're doing.
What you're doing is becauseyou're like we need to teach, we
need to learn the tools, weneed to have these awareness or

(16:07):
at least to have people to haveconversations around these
topics, because this happens.
This is life.
Death is part of life.
It's just I know a bit of acliche, but you know it's, it's
so.
I'm really, I'm really excitedto that.
You're doing this because noone else is.

Speaker 2 (16:28):
Thank you.
Yes, I feel like I've kind offound my where, my my own
personal interests andexperience and the needs of that
I recognize in in culture andin humanity and in our society.
I feel like those two thingsare kind of converging and I'm
really excited about what'scoming.
So thanks for having me, that'sgreat.

Speaker 1 (16:48):
My what you you mentioned, to the difference
between kind of the western andeastern cultures.
I mean, I don't know enoughabout enough of the eastern kind
of religious or beliefs, but Ido have a very rudimentary
understanding of Buddhism,because I've always thought
Buddhism was really cool.
As a kid my dad had a goodfriend and she was.
She was Buddhist.
I remember going to like thetemples and stuff and as a kid

(17:11):
in you know, old Vancouver,chinatown, and and she was, you
know, taught me about all.
You know I was like I was ayoung kid but I was always
really neat, but that was theone thing that was.
That was they talked to.
A lot was about about, aboutdeath, it was, it was, it was,
it was part of everything thatthey, that they did, because

(17:34):
death, for them, though, wasn'ta permanence, it was more of
just a transition to a different.
I can't remember the right word, but enlightenment, I guess,
was the, I think was the, wasthe and maybe reincarnation.
So I always thought that kind ofbelief system always resonated
more with me as a young person.
But that means that's a waybetter way to think about life.

Speaker 2 (17:57):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (17:58):
About death.

Speaker 2 (17:59):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (18:00):
And we do in our Western culture.

Speaker 2 (18:02):
Right, two sides of the same coin, right, I think,
for me, if you wanted to.
I mean this is an extremegeneralization, but for the sake
of starting somewhere in theconversation, I kind of look at
what we do in the West asfocusing on what we're looking
at, whereas Eastern ortraditional knowledge system

(18:26):
it's almost as if they teach youhow to look at things
differently.
So there's, there's an aspectto traditional knowledge systems
that is much more philosophicalin nature, and over here we
like quantifiable things, youknow, and that's where, that's
where I see the paradox andeverything related to this

(18:48):
conversation around providingcare in in death care spaces, is
that the curative treatmentsthat we have here in the West,
which exists only because wefocused on disease and focused
on science and focused onfinding new treatments, new ways
of doing things, at some pointthose things fail because death

(19:10):
is way more persistent than allof our technology, and when it
does, we're probably going tolean on those more traditional
knowledge system aspects of ouryou know of, of your, your whole
person, the way that youphilosophize your interactions
with the world, or you know what, what is all this, what is this

(19:32):
all mean?
Right?
Those things naturally come up,at the very least at the end of
your life.
If you're in a good positionwhere you're ready to consider
your own mortality, you can lookat those things in advance.
Which is partially what I'm sopassionate about telling people
is that you can actually live abetter life If you consider your

(19:54):
death, if you consider yourmortality.
There's a level of gratitudethat you're able to access when
you know that this universedoesn't owe you anything.
That carries through to therest of your existence.
Here and I do find that in thoseEastern traditions, I think

(20:16):
perhaps and this is just me, youknow, wondering about it but
perhaps because they lackedcurative treatments, they had no
other choice except for leaningon.
How do I look at this?
I can either be completelydevastated and suffer or I can
create an ideology that willhelp me, that will help me

(20:40):
wrestle with my own mortalityRight, considering that
everything's a balance, energies, you know the whole
reincarnation aspect of Buddhism, those things.
If you can lean into that as apossibility, there is something
that feels a little bit moresofter for you when you consider
your mortality Right, andthat's kind of where the gem in

(21:04):
Eastern traditions is, in myopinion, and that's I mean I
have a deep appreciation for itbecause I do.
That is my bias.
I do have a background inanthropology, but I'm seeing
especially now that you know,since I took my death to a
little course I'm seeing that ithas a place.
It has a place for us whenwe're looking at the suffering

(21:27):
of human beings.
One of the things that you runinto when you're looking at
palliative or hospice care is asense of isolation that they
can't talk to anybody about it.
Every other healthcare provideris focused on their disease.
They're not focused on theperson and a lot of times people
end up having to have thesenatural conversations that come

(21:50):
up at the end of their life,where they will start asking you
if you're available for sittingdown and talking about it.
They'll start asking you abouthow you see the world, how you
see mortality, how you see death.
Is there anything after this?
And the notion that we would allstruggle with that, isolated by
ourselves, because ourhealthcare providers don't know

(22:13):
how to hold space for thatconversation.
I'm just, I'm just morally notokay with that.
You know, I find that it's a.
It's a turning away fromhumanity that I'm not
comfortable with.
It's exactly the failure that Ihad when I walked away from my
neighbor, mr Fisher.
It's an echo of that, I don'tyou know.

(22:34):
Ever since, I've been spendingall this time trying to find a
way to right a wrong from mypast, and this is kind of my way
of probably in some waysmanifesting my own healing but
also showing up for the needs ofhuman beings in a biomedical,

(22:55):
disease focused healthcaresystem that ignores the
spiritual aspect spiritualaspects of a person's health.

Speaker 1 (23:02):
I'm so glad you brought that up, ashley, because
you know you mentioned, youknow that the, you know, in
palliative and end of life care,really the person centered care
is the thing that is kind ofthe term that it's, it's
building, it's been used for along time.
We start seeing more and moreand all types of healthcare.
You know, in our world, the MSKcare, everything should be
person centered, which isfocusing on the individual and

(23:24):
their needs.
You know, rather than justdisease management or just, you
know, fixing a problem, andwhether that's treating a low
back or neck pain or whetherthat's being supportive for
somebody at the end of life, thesame principles applies like
how can you hold that space forthat person to help them the

(23:48):
best way that they need or theywant at that time?
And it's, it's so true that inend of life care, yeah, like
people are, they go to hospiceand they're just like they go to
there to die, just to live outtheir last days, and they're,
you know, given drugs and orthey're trying to be, their life
tries to be prolonged.
But the humans miss right thatthat human connection is often

(24:11):
missing.
We sit in all healthcarebecause the biomedical approach
has a place, but you know it'snot treating the human.
Is treating the, the bit of thehuman and the disease, right,
rather than the illness, whichis like the behaviors and how
the disease is impacting theperson, right.

(24:33):
So that's right, that's right?

Speaker 2 (24:35):
Yeah, I do.
I suppose I should probablydistinguish between, because I
use both terms, palliative andhospice care, and they are
actually different.
So palliative care comes fromthe root word, which I think
comes from Greek might have tofact check that for me but it
comes from it's to cloak, soyou're cloaking pain.

(24:56):
The whole concept is just painmanagement.
In palliative care you'reideally working in
interdisciplinary, everyone'scollaborative, and you're
supporting the person in biocycle, social ways.
Hospice care for people inhospice care, they're in
palliative care, but thedifference is that you know they

(25:19):
have and generally dependshospice center to hospice center
, but generally they have aboutsix months left to live and I I
think I would be much moreafraid to exist on this planet
if we didn't have hospice care,because in hospice care the care
team is specifically trainedand how to approach the hard

(25:43):
questions of death, of mortality, how to support people at the
end of their life, how tosupport the family members
around the person at the end oftheir life at the other end of
the person's life, I should say,because there's a lot of grief
and bereavement that happensafter they die and hospice care

(26:03):
sets up the family to have griefcare after the death of the
person who dies.
So I don't want people to thinkthat hospice care is like this
place where people get tuckedaway to die, you know, over,
medicated and quietly as easilyas it is on the health care team
.
It's actually kind of theopposite.
You have suddenly, when youenter hospice care, you suddenly

(26:24):
have access to resources thatyou didn't have before, because
hospice care centers have justthe resources allocated by the
government are different forthose care families.
So it's it really is.
I mean, I I can understand howpeople who are death avoid and
afraid of death almost see it aslike the last benchmark before

(26:46):
they die.
In some ways I suppose that'strue.
But also, the longer youprolong your access to those
resources, the longer, in asense, you potentially suffer.
So hospice care is comfort careand I wish there was more

(27:06):
conversation around that becausepeople don't seem to know
People are afraid of enteringhospice care because they think
it's quote-unquote, giving upRight, it's not really, it's not
really.

Speaker 1 (27:17):
No, thanks for clarifying that.

Speaker 2 (27:18):
That's good, that's something that's good yeah, for
sure.

Speaker 1 (27:20):
Those are terms that we kind of throw around, but we
don't.
A lot of us don't even know.

Speaker 2 (27:24):
Well, they're used interchangeably.
Yeah, and I don't blame peoplefor not knowing the difference.
Nobody really knows thedifference unless you've taken
courses.

Speaker 1 (27:32):
Yeah, yeah.
I have a client, a longstanding client, who is a
hospice nurse and she loves herjob because of being there for
people at the end of the laststages of their life and she
finds it very rewarding, I guessyou have the person to be able
to do that.

(27:52):
But over the years 12 plusyears she's been a client she's.
You know, I think.
How do you do that?
She's like I love it yeah.

Speaker 2 (28:03):
Good for you.
The world needs more of you,yeah.

Speaker 1 (28:07):
So you know, I find that.

Speaker 2 (28:07):
I hear that a lot.
Yeah, I hear that a lot too.
Usually I might put a littlebit of a spotlight here right
now with what I'm about to saynext, but usually when people
say that to me, when they'relike I don't understand how you
can do that In a split second.
I know way more than theyrealize about how comfortable

(28:29):
they are with their own death.
Sure, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,because it's.
I mean, I think the thing thatpeople don't realize about
hospice care as well is that,and palliative care, to a pretty
significant degree, is thatbecause the emphasis in those

(28:53):
contexts is addressing totalsuffering of the person, so not
just addressing the biologicalmarkers for the reason they have
pain, but also whether or notthey're socially isolated,
whether or not they have afailing relationship with their
parents.
You know, like all of thesethings, spiritual questions you

(29:14):
know I haven't been a believermy whole life and now what
happens when I die?
You know those big, big things.
Palliative and hospice care ismore adequately prepared for
dealing with those situationsand, as an important component
of that, the health careproviders are given training in

(29:37):
how to, they're given trainingin boundaries, they're given
training in compassion.
You know they have anunderstanding that they are
there for human connection,right.
And I do not feel that that isemphasized in the biomedical
model.
A lot of times health careproviders are expected to behave

(29:58):
like robots.
You know, onto the next one,onto the next one, they're for
the disease, no time for humanconnection.
That's depleting.
That is depleting for thehealth care provider.
That leads to burnout, right?
And I think the thing that Iwish everyone could see a little
bit more clearly is that whenthe emphasis is placed on

(30:22):
alleviating human suffering, youhave no choice but to connect
with that person on a humanlevel and you, as a health care
provider, get a lot back fromthat, because it's a mutual
connection and there's somethingabout it that's replenishing.
So when she talks about howrewarding that is, I know
exactly what she's talking about.

Speaker 1 (30:43):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (30:44):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (30:45):
Yeah, and then you do .
I know the guy I'm like.
If I think of my own mortality,it makes me feel very
uncomfortable.

Speaker 2 (30:53):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (30:54):
Yeah, I'll admit that no too many things to do, right
I?
Don't want to think about death, but you know, as you get older
you start to realize that wellinto my 40s now, you know life's
probably at least half over,you know, and so you're like,
but you're like I still havehalf left.
There's lots more to do, right.
But yeah, it is something, andyou're right, in our culture and

(31:17):
just kind of in my bringing aswell, it wasn't really talked
about in death.
It was a scary thing.

Speaker 2 (31:22):
Yeah, and I don't want to place myself above you
at all, and I don't feel thatway, Okay good, because I you
know, to be honest, I also have,like I said before it's you're
peeling back layers of an onion.
There's always going to be thenext thing that kind of freaks
you out about mortality or aboutdeclining in your health, and I
just kind of peel those layersback as gently and as

(31:44):
self-compassionately as I can,but I'm on that same path.
There's things that I'muncomfortable with too.

Speaker 1 (31:51):
Let's.
This has been great.
I feel like we could talk aboutthis forever.
I want forever Forever.
I know Maybe we'll have to dolike a four part episode or
something, but I wanted to askyou more.
I was kind of just we'll leavethat there behind and I want to
ask you more about kind of someof your like, maybe the content
you are presenting or the coursethat you want to teach it, and

(32:11):
kind of what's that going tolook like for RMT?
It's like what kind of thingswould people expect if they're
like I'm taking a course fromAshley?

Speaker 2 (32:18):
Yeah, so the focus will definitely not be on
modalities you base yeah, I meanthere's just it really comes
down to more so about there'sthe science of medicine and its
application, and then there isthe art of medicine and its

(32:42):
application, and I think thatextends to massage therapy as
well.
And you know, being able tohold space for people who are
dying takes a certain level offinesse when you're thinking
about communicating that way,and it's the kind of training
that we don't get at ourbaseline level of education when

(33:06):
we become certified.
So, gosh, I mean I want to talkabout all kinds of things.
I want to draw on my experienceas an anthropologist and I want
to teach people like hey, look,this isn't, this isn't like a
cut and dry thing.
There are different ways thatyou can look at death and dying.

(33:27):
These things are culturallymediated.
Cultural training is the kindof thing where all of our brains
are like open source code, likeour brains are open for
training that we receive, thatwe end up like through society
and through culture that we endup.

(33:48):
We end up running theseprograms on a near unconscious
level.
And it isn't until you drawattention to the fact that
you're running this unconsciousprogram that you can kind of
start rewiring your perspectiveon things, your approach to
things, and I mean we know thatwe can only show up for people

(34:11):
to our own level of comfort witha certain subject Right, and
because our culture createsdeath avoidant people, those
people end up taking classesthat are probably also death
avoidant in nature, like evenhealthcare providers, even
doctors, and we just I justthink that we, we need better.

(34:33):
We need better because, at theend of the day, I feel like
everyone I'm over here talkingabout it as a teacher, but I
need society to buy into thisbecause we need to care about
this on a social level, like wehave to improve the level of
care that we're providing topeople.

(34:53):
So I'm like I told you, I've gotmy own hangups with mortality
as well.
I am not with the way thatthings are right now.
I am not comfortable being apatient with the way that things
are, and I need to put my moneywhere my mouth is and I need to
start.
I mean, this isn't going to befixed by itself.
We need as many people outthere are educating on this

(35:16):
stuff so that we can get peopleto know about this stuff, so
that meaningful change starts tohappen, and I agree with you
like meaningful changes startingto happen.
There is a lot moreconversation about
biopsychosocial factors and I'mvery, very happy about that.
But at a foundational level,what I don't think there is
enough emphasis on is the factthat we have built a biomedical

(35:40):
system, a biomedical model ofhealthcare, and I think there's
this assumption out there thatif you go to the hospital you're
going to get compassionate careas it concerns mortality, and
that is not true.
That's not true.
I actually have a quote here.
It's a quote that I keep aroundbecause it kind of helps me

(36:04):
keep pushing.
So this quote is from JaredRubinstein, who's a medical
doctor in palliative pediatriccare, and he says this is from
his own social media account.
One of the great failures ofmodern medical education is that
a doctor can go through all ofmed school and residency and

(36:25):
receive almost no education andnormal natural dying or training
and how to support someone atthat stage of life.
Is that not one of the craziestthings you've ever heard?

Speaker 1 (36:36):
Yeah, that almost seems so illogical.

Speaker 2 (36:39):
Yeah, and because we're not going to be able to
change the way that doctors aretaught right off the hop, but as
allied healthcare providers, asmassage therapists what a
beautiful thing it is to be oneof the few kinds of providers

(37:02):
out there that at least havethat level of education and the
fact that we are in an industrywhere we don't have 15 minutes
with a client we've got.
I mean, it depends on the waythat you run your practice, but
I myself I run my treatment 60minutes at a time generally.

Speaker 1 (37:20):
That same year.

Speaker 2 (37:21):
Yeah, 60 minutes with a client Are you kidding?
That's gold.
And if you can provide themwith education or with a gentle
space where they can experiencewhat it's like to have someone
who quietly supports them or notquietly if you're having a

(37:42):
conversation but at least youknow that they have the
appropriate education arounddeath care so that they're not
completely alone, so that whentheir doctor comes in and you
know, says something, doesn'teven bother looking them in the
eyes or just reading and chartand they leave right away.
And I'm not saying that happensin palliative or hospice care
necessarily, but a lot of peopleon oncological units, for

(38:02):
example.
I've heard a lot of stories inmy own practice because now my
clients know that I'm a deathcare provider and they tell me
all kinds of stuff that wouldmake your skin crawl.
It's just there's, yeah, there'snot enough, there's not enough
human connection.

Speaker 1 (38:16):
Yeah, it's the biomedical model.

Speaker 2 (38:17):
That's the problem.

Speaker 1 (38:19):
Yeah, and that's, and the biomedical model model is
in this state.
I mean, it is a bit of atravesty, isn't it?
Travesty to humanity, I guesswould be a good way to put it,
whereas it's like the humanconnection isn't there.
And it's so interestinglistening to you talk about this
, with the death care and oflife stuff, because a lot of the
language you're using is thesame things that I always talk

(38:41):
about when in like dealing withchronic pain, because that's my
area of interest and like toabout like creating that we have
60 minutes to create thatmeaningful connection with
somebody.
Or if someone's living withsome debilitating or some
chronic pain condition, we'renot going to fix it, we can't
change it, but we can make theirjourney through life hopefully

(39:01):
a better place.
And we have the gift of time,which nobody else has, and we
have the gift of that, holdingthat safe space and, obviously
using touch as a way tocommunicate and to feel good
with somebody, as well as verbalcommunication.
It's so powerful and that's thebeauty of our profession that I

(39:21):
don't think this is allanecdotal.
I don't think enough RMT'srealize the power of holding
that safe space and having thatconnection with people, for
whether it's, you know, like yousaid, talking about the end of
life care, or whether it'schronic pain or any other kind
of persistent or long termhealth condition People don't

(39:45):
need to be fixed, they just needto be believed, they need to be
feel safe and feel comfortablewith you and guaranteed.
Physios, chiro, osteopaths, youknow, medical doctors doesn't
matter who it is, who it is, heor she is.
I don't think that any of themhave the ability to do that as
well as us because of the giftof time.

Speaker 2 (40:07):
That's it, absolutely .
Yep, absolutely, yeah, healingcan still exist where curative
treatments have failed.
So there's a difference betweencuring and healing, and I think
that even when a person gets tothe point where they know
they're going to die, there'sstill healing that can take
place.
It's just about showing up andnot being afraid and not turning

(40:32):
away.

Speaker 1 (40:34):
Yeah, and then just, yeah, I just think to
reemphasize the similarities andkind of our little different
populations, but how things arevery different but the same
right.
And I like how you use the wordcuring and healing and often
times, like we talk about in thechronic pain world, about you
know, healing being this youknow, oh, you're going to heal

(40:55):
from your injury.
Well, yes, your injury can heal, but your disability or
experience with pain you canheal.
In terms of meaning, I'mputting an air quotes I know I
can't see that Put an air quotesin terms of healing, in terms
of like, accepting or learningways to live best with what you

(41:15):
have, with your currentsituation, and that's something
that I really want people tounderstand and, regardless of
who you're treating or whoyou're working with, and
regardless of what their concernis, is healing doesn't always
have to be a tissue fix.
It could be supporting thatperson to live better, live more

(41:38):
meaningful lives.

Speaker 2 (41:41):
Yeah, absolutely 100% I am.
I really like Andrew Solomon'swork.
He teaches clinical psychologyin the States at an Ivy League
school and he has this reallypopular TED Talk where he talks
about how people overcomedifficult circumstances.

(42:01):
And we as human beings, we'remeant to be storytellers.
We can make sense of ourindividual traumas or these
difficult circumstances by.
What he says is forging meaningand building identity.
And I hear what you're sayingabout the chronic pain thing,

(42:22):
because at some point you know,if a person recognizes that
their situation isn't changing,they're going to have to spin
gold out of that in some way ifthey want to alleviate their
suffering.
And that's when people startforging meaning and building
identity.
Who am I now?
What does this all mean?

(42:43):
And it's all you know.
How am I going to live my lifenow?
Right.
And it's all applicable to theend of your life as well, when
you're looking at terminalillness.
Oh God, what does this mean?
Like, how am I going to live mylife now?
Or whatever life I have left,right?
Very applicable.

Speaker 1 (43:01):
Yeah, yeah, and that's why I brought up that,
just because it's there's somuch overlap and similarities,
and that's because it's treatingthe human, not treating the
condition.

Speaker 2 (43:12):
That's it, that's it, and that's what I care about.
That's where I want my reach tobe.
Yeah, for sure.

Speaker 1 (43:17):
Yeah, yeah, and like that's.
I mean that's why people likeyourself and myself and others
are out there.
You know a lot of us will.
We want to be involved inteaching courses or content
because we want better forpeople.
We want people to receive,hopefully, better care or the
very least, you know, not makingpeople feel worse.

Speaker 2 (43:42):
Yeah, that's it Absolutely, and that's where.
That's where just having thetraining and communication and
also understanding that I meanyou can't if you want to make
someone not feel worse, you'regoing to have to find a way for
you not to get triggered by yourown existential dread when
they're talking about theirs.
Right, like, if you haven'tovercome a level of that, then

(44:06):
you run the risk of sincerelyhurting somebody, and a lot of
times they don't even tell you.
They just write you off as ahealthcare provider, right, like
, if you know, like, what arethey going to do?
Spend their precious timetrying to teach you how to
overcome your stuff.

Speaker 1 (44:23):
They just won't come back.

Speaker 2 (44:25):
No, they just won't come back.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1 (44:30):
That's.
That's an important thing toofor us to understand as a
massage therapist is that we asa profession I find this from
conversations and experiences ofhow people over the years is
that when someone doesn't comeback you know we don't we just
tend to dismiss it rather thanthinking what did I do that
maybe triggered them or pushthem to not come back.

(44:52):
But a lot of us are busy andwe're like, oh, we just focus on
all the positive.
But I think it's really for usit's been such a surface or any
healthcare profession, but we'reRMT, so we can talk about us.
We should always question whythe person not coming.
Like did they come back becausethey didn't need to?
Okay, that's great, but maybethey did need to.
Maybe they're seeking care fromsomebody else because I did
something, or I didn't dosomething that they needed or

(45:16):
wanted.
Those are the questions weshould be asking.
You know what?
How do I get this person tocome back again and again, and
again?
If I were to look howsuccessful I am, Okay, great.
But what about the people thatdidn't show up?
Why didn't ask the questions?
Why are they not coming back?

Speaker 2 (45:31):
I actually I can tell you a story related to that.
I had this pivotal moment in myown practice and it was
actually because of this that Idecided to take in part because
that I decided to take a deathdual course just to wrap my head
around such things a little bitmore deeply.
But I had an initial assessmentjust coming in for standard

(45:54):
treatment, nothing specific,nothing really MSK.
They just wanted to relax orfeeling stressed, and I noticed
when they were walking in thatthey had this beautiful curly
hair.
And I should have known betterbecause I had been paying
attention to you know the ideathat you shouldn't comment on

(46:19):
someone's body.
Regardless of whether or notit's a good thing Someone's
losing weight, still don't say,oh wow, you look great.
You know, because you have noidea what the context is.
They might be struggling with aneeding disorder, so just don't
comment on a person's body.
So I, you know, I thought I hadingrained that, but I think at
the time maybe I thought thathair was innocuous and it

(46:40):
wouldn't be a problem.
So I complimented this personon their curls, on their curly
hair, and I could tell as soonas it left my mouth they became
it shifted.
It shifted the tone.
I took them into my room, wesat down and I was like, oh boy,

(47:03):
you know how do we address thisCause.
Now the tone's changed and it'san initial assessment.
It's not the best way to startwith the therapeutic
relationship and, to thisperson's credit, they told me
what I had done wrong.
So they told me that their hairisn't naturally curly, that
chemo had changed it, that a lotof people now it's called chemo

(47:25):
curls, that a lot of peoplecompliment their hair, but they
don't know that really allthey're achieving in that moment
is she gets a reminder that shecould have died.
Wow, yeah, hair right.
You think it's innocuous and Ijust I mean, I thanked her up

(47:48):
and down for being, you know,daring to be that honest with me
, cause that's a level ofhonesty that you're just not
going to get at a lot of people,cause most of them will just
rate you off.
But she chose to be honest andI, you know I owe a lot of
thanks to her cause.
Now I've kind of like elevatedmyself and understood in a split
second that I was not doingenough and that I could be doing

(48:08):
better, and I think I'm notsaying this to toot my own horn
whatsoever.
It's just a philosophy I have.
But if you're not willing to be, if you're not willing to not
take things personally, ifyou're not willing to do the
kind of self reflection you weretalking about just now, then
your practice will plateau.
It's, you know, it's thedifference between a clinician

(48:32):
who wants to provide superiorcare and superior support and
someone who doesn't want to lookback at an embarrassing moment.
You know that's, that's thedifference.
Or to, you know, I have to getthat client back because money
or whatever other reason, ego,whatever, you know, you have to,
you have to be humble and tryto elevate yourself.

Speaker 1 (48:54):
Yeah, and that's the sign of a top notch clinician, I
think, is when you can behumble and you can have a
humility and be like, yeah, Iscrewed up.

Speaker 2 (49:03):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, even in conversations where
we're talking about likeevidence-based things, because
that's the, I mean, that's whatI believe foundational.
I believe in that that is, inorder to push this profession
forward.
We need to focus onevidence-based things.

(49:25):
Yes, the paradox that I existin is that when people are
facing their death, they're muchmore likely to reach towards
spiritual means of feelingbetter.
And a lot of times people youknow practicing embodiment
through their spirituality,receiving something like a Reiki

(49:45):
treatment right For some people, they would find that really
supportive if the curativetreatments have failed, if there
was no other recourse, and youknow they can be happening at
the same time.
But you know a palliative caredoctor or a hospice care doctor
will have a level of patiencefor that.
That's someone like an ICUdoctor potentially wouldn't

(50:09):
right Cause that's not in theirframe of relevance.
You know they're focused ondisease.
These guys are focused on humansuffering and I worry that
there's some massage therapistsout there that are driving for
evidence-based practice sostrongly that they're willing to
throw the baby out with thebathwater and not having

(50:30):
patience for things.
Like you know, they're clientrequesting a referral for a
Reiki provider.
You don't have to provide onebut you know, don't be offensive
towards the person and say thatthey're a full poop.
Yeah, no, poop, yeah.

Speaker 1 (50:49):
Full of shit, exactly , yeah, yeah, that is a.
I'm glad you brought that up,actually, because that is a huge
thing.
That is like, okay, I agree,100%.
Evidence-based practice iswhere we should be going.

Speaker 2 (51:03):
Yes.

Speaker 1 (51:04):
Otherwise we're just make-believe based practice 100%
.
But the key with evidence-basedpractice, though, is and this is
where there's themisrepresentation is yes, it's
relevant research evidence.
Relevant research evidence plusyour own clinical expertise,
plus what the person wants inthe context of the individual.

(51:27):
So there is definitely.
You see these extremes right?
You see these people like well,there's no research evidence
for it, therefore it's garbageand it's useless and we
shouldn't do it.
But what if there's not?
Maybe not research for aspecific thing let's use Reiki,
for an example.
But you know the person reallywants this.
You know, maybe, that they'vehad experiences before that has

(51:51):
worked for them.
Or maybe they you know theyfound a practitioner that's done
it.
That's like yeah, you know thismight help you in your healing
or might help with yourexperience.
Then why would we take thataway from somebody?
As long as we're not, as longas it's not being sold as this
falsehood, yes, this Reikitreatment is going to prolong

(52:11):
your life?
Well, no, it's not.
Yeah, but maybe it's gonna makeyour experience a little bit
better.
Personally for me, I wouldn'tdo Reiki.
I wouldn't recommend it.
But if someone came to me andsaid you know, whatever I've
been recommended, I go see thisperson, what do you think I'd be
like?

Speaker 2 (52:27):
You, do you.

Speaker 1 (52:28):
You do you Like.
I mean, as long as you're awareof the limitations and the pros
and cons of it, then I don'tsee a problem, as long as you're
not just wasting money on falsepromises.

Speaker 2 (52:41):
That's it, yeah, and that's a big thing, that's right
fine, big thing Go ahead, sorry.

Speaker 1 (52:45):
No, no, sorry, I was just gonna say that that's a big
thing where I see ourprofession, whereas there's a
group of us and more of us Iwould like to say there's more
of us, but there's a bunch ofpeople on profession.
Yeah, one evidence base, but weknow there's not a lot of very
strong evidence for any type ofmanual intervention.

(53:06):
We know that what we can do atmost is symptom management, pain
management, a little bit offunctional stuff with touch and
movement, blah, blah, blah.
But really what it comes downto is it's we have to have that
realization that we aren'tfixing people.
But there is also part ofevidence is your clinical

(53:28):
experience and what does theperson want?
And there's gotta be somemiddle ground there.
But there is a danger, though,with evidence-based practice.
There's a danger where peoplewill use it to explain anything.

Speaker 2 (53:42):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (53:43):
Oh well yeah, I know there's no evidence, but I've
been doing this for 20 years andI know it works.

Speaker 2 (53:47):
Right, absolutely yeah.

Speaker 1 (53:49):
It's not evidence-based practice, because
you need to have some type ofevidence there you can provide
person-centered care.
And the absence ofevidence-based practice.
So let's use a rake example.
You could say, okay, this wouldbe person-centered care, and if
we're giving this personsomething that they want, we
know there's no evidence for it,that's fine.
They're getting something thatthey want that's not gonna cause
them harm.
Go ahead as long as you'reaware of that.
But I think we do have a dangerof some people and I see this,

(54:13):
that's why I bring it up is thatpeople will tend to use their
anecdotal experiences and theirclinical experiences as being
gold-staffed evidence.
Yes, that's part of theevidence-based thing, but it's
the mechanisms or claims you'remaking are not supported.

Speaker 2 (54:32):
That's right.
That's right.
Yeah, that's strong.
Yeah, absolutely.
I kind of wish that ourprograms were a little bit
stronger and explaining howresearch works, for exactly that
reason.
Yeah, it laughs at me.
I think guys are like yeah, Iknow, that's a good bias alert

(54:55):
and there's not right.

Speaker 1 (54:57):
There's not.
It says in the competencydocuments that all the regulated
provinces have and even theunregulated provinces are
supposed to follow thatinter-jurisdictional competency
document.
That's a hard word to say,sounds like I've been drinking.
I haven't been, but hard to say.
But it says in there you know,armies must follow or you

(55:18):
utilize evidence-based practice.
I can guarantee you, I haveinterviewed and spoken with
schools and instructors allacross the country and I have
never once encountered one placewhere evidence-based practice
is taught adequately.

Speaker 2 (55:36):
Right, I agree.

Speaker 1 (55:39):
And most exposure that RMTs get to evidence in
school is they do like aresearch methods course where
they learn like.
This is the abstract, this isthe introduction and I know
someone's probably gonna send mea message that's listening to
this and be like no, my school,you're wrong, I'm like again,
I'm not all of them, but I'msaying majority right, it's not
enough, because if you wanna bea healthcare provider, I have to

(56:00):
understand evidence.
Yes, absolutely Can't follow arecipe from a textbook.

Speaker 2 (56:05):
Yes, absolutely yeah.
Yeah, I struggled with how tomanage that when I was teaching
in a school in the East.
So I did try teaching at thecollege level up and coming
massage therapists and I knewgoing in that it would be

(56:26):
something that I would strugglewith.
I just didn't know how much ofa weight it would be on me and
ultimately it was a majorcontributor to me deciding to
focus on CE courses, becausethere I feel like I have much
more control.
And to give credit to thecollege where I taught, I mean

(56:51):
we talked about this.
I talked about this issue withthe directors before I started
teaching and their stance on itwas basically yeah, we know it's
a really big problem.
We actually reached out to thecollege of massage therapists of
New Brunswick to tell them thatwe need better standards here
in our education and, from whatI understand, the CMTNB is just

(57:19):
very slow to do a change up.
I don't know the reason why.
I mean I can toss out ideasthat I have as to the reason why
I mean surely it would take alot of effort to kind of revamp
one of the major textbooks thatthey construct the board exam

(57:44):
from.
But at the end of the day what Ifound that I was doing when I
was trying to provideevidence-based, toss some
evidence-based stuff in there,and while I teach and just
highlight that it's importanceand where it comes from, and,
da-da-da, I was just frustratingstudents.
They were just gettingfrustrated.
You know, they're already in aposition where they have to cram

(58:07):
so much material into theirbrains.
They're focused on step one,getting a license, and I'm over
here trying to teach themcomplicated, complicated
concepts about all kinds ofthings.
And I just got tired.

(58:27):
It just felt like aninsurmountable task and I just
decided to, you know, exit whenI could and just focus on CE.
That's what I'm gonna do.
I think that's where I cancreate the biggest change,
instead of being a cog in thewheel of a system that is
resistant to change.

Speaker 1 (58:45):
Oh, I love that you said that and that's the whole
reason why I got into CE2 was toinfluence, get a groundswell of
support of people just kind ofspeak in the same language or
thinking similarly.
You know we don't have one to bethe same right, but to get the
information out there, becausetrying to change the
stakeholders was impossible.
Yeah, that's all right.

(59:05):
The schools I have found acrossthe country and it's like I
said, I've spoken to so many ofthem, I would say all but one of
them that I've spoke to theydon't want to change because
they don't really know what todo and they point the fingers at
the college and I think that isthe weakest excuse you could

(59:28):
ever use, because you can change.
You can still teach the stuffthat they need to pass to board
exams, but you can also add inevidence-based content.
It's not like an all or nothing.
You can blend it and you cancombine both and I know from my
experience because I work withthe school in Alberta where
we're doing exactly that, and Iknow it is possible.

(59:50):
But there's the reluctance fromthe schools, like they'll all
say, oh yeah, we know, but theydon't do anything about it.
They're like, well, they pointthe finger at the college and
the colleges, for whateverreason, to the regulatory
colleges.
I don't really understand whythey don't want to do anything
either, because their mandate issafe, effective, ethical care.

Speaker 2 (01:00:09):
Thank you for saying that.

Speaker 1 (01:00:10):
Yes, and they don't realize for some reason they
won't realize that you arelicensing, educating people out
there that are not necessarilygiving safe, effective and
ethical care.
Now safe okay are RMTs hurtingpeople?
Probably not.
But how do you define safety?
Do you define safety of maybeinferring problems that don't

(01:00:32):
exist?
Are you maybe increasing somepain-related disability or some
functional disability Right,effective?
We know that a lot of thesepatho-anatomical, tissue-based
claims have no evidence tosupport them, but that's what's
taught, because that's what's inthose textbooks, particularly
the green textbook that most ofus used for the last 30 years,

(01:00:55):
and the thing is that I find isthat the biggest problem is the
ethics of it.

Speaker 2 (01:01:01):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:01:02):
You should not be.
If you are ethical care, one ofthem is non-malificence, which
is do no harm.
The other one is informedconsent.
So if you are a college andyou're saying we're gonna
examine people on this contentthat is not supported by any

(01:01:23):
evidence, and then RMTs aregoing and they're passing that
exam, and they're going andthey're relaying those messages
or they're following thesetreatment protocols as outlined,
what they're supposed to do,and they're telling clients like
, oh yeah, you have back painbecause you've got a short this
and a long that and a rotatedthis or this is unbalanced this

(01:01:43):
week Twisted pelvis.
Yeah, whatever it is, like youcan just throw anything in there
, right?
Yeah, when there's no evidenceto support that.
And then you get, and they'regiving that information to
people and like, do you want?
And they're giving you consentto treat, it's actually they're
not giving you informed consentbecause they're giving you
consent based on falsehoods.
It's not supported, so theethical component is completely

(01:02:06):
gone.
Now some people might listen toand I say this all the time and
I'm glad you brought it up soit gives me another time to say
this.
So, thank you, ashley.
Is that like well, what harmare they doing?
You know, like most peoplearen't, aren't negatively
affected by that, and I wouldsay yes most people aren't.
Most people don't care ifthey're they have a twisted
pelvis or up, slip or down, slipor rotation or, like most
people, like my back hurts andthen you do the thing and they

(01:02:28):
feel fine.
But what about that for thatpercentage of the population
where they hold on to that andthey it impacts their behavior
in a negative way Absolutely andthey stop doing things or stop
engaging in life, or maybe that,maybe that fear and anxiety
about that pain starts toamplify and maybe that
sensitizes their nociceptivesystem and maybe they start to
feel their pain becomes worsebecause of the things that we

(01:02:51):
that someone well-meaning saiddid.

Speaker 2 (01:02:55):
Absolutely.

Speaker 1 (01:02:56):
Yeah, that is the thing that the colleges and the
schools and the regulatorycolleges and the schools and the
associations really need tounderstand, and I've had many
conversations with them and Ijust don't think they do.
I just don't think they seethat, they see that as a problem
.
So, but if we don't have theseconversations, you know one's
gonna listen, maybe somebodywill eventually listen.

Speaker 2 (01:03:15):
I'm seeing a parallel right now between our culture
raising our death avoidantculture, raising death avoidant
healthcare providers and alsoschooling that is outdated,
raising leadership in thoseschools that still believe in
outdated stuff, 100%.
And you know yeah, and then, andthen that being resistant to
change.

(01:03:35):
I mean I know that at myparticular college, when we
opened up this conversationyou're right they did say you
know it's up to the CMTMB topick a different textbook, let's
go.
And they did tell me that eachindividual instructor please go

(01:03:57):
ahead and weave inevidence-based protocols.
And so I know that I did.
I think there needs to be abigger conversation around it
than that was a three-on-oneconversation and I think I would
have felt better about what Iwas instructing if it was

(01:04:19):
supported by the otherinstructors who are also
instructing.
Do you know what I mean?
Like, if there was like a let'sget the entire teaching crew
together and have a conversationaround evidence-based protocols
, then I would have felt,honestly, more confident.
And I mean I knew that I wasteaching in a way that ethically
sat right with me, but thediscomfort that I had in

(01:04:42):
teaching was not knowing whetheror not I was budding up against
another instructor's teachingin a different class, and that
itself was quite uncomfortable.

Speaker 1 (01:04:55):
For sure.
Because, then what's thestudent has to believe?
Somebody who do I believe,right, you know who?
Which person's making a morecompelling argument?
Which person do I like the best?
And rather than gettingconsistent messages, it creates
inconsistent messaging, like yousaid, and students would be
frustrated.

Speaker 2 (01:05:13):
Right, yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:05:14):
And that's a problem and that's what I've seen kind
of throughout, at least in BC,where you know I know a lot of
people in a lot of the schoolsis there might be there's some
great instructors, but theneverybody else is just kind of
just going through the motionsand so that creates that
inconsistency.
I do know, from when we looktalking about evidence-based, we
look at the research.

(01:05:34):
The biggest influence on RMT islong-term education, like how
are they going to practice, howare they going to critically
think, how are they going to beas clinicians?
That's formed with what youlearn in school.
If you learn these hard and fastrules in school.
This is how things are.
And then you go out into workand you take a CE course or you
read some information online oryou go to visit some social

(01:05:58):
media page and it challengesyour initial education and you
haven't been taught about kindof some of the scientific
process or haven't been taughtabout like evidence, changes and
what you're learning in school.
That's.
This is not the hard and fastrule.
It's going to change and maybetoday you're learning both
fashion and now you're like, oh,we don't have to worry too much

(01:06:20):
about fashion.
It's a thing, but we don't haveto worry about fixing it on
people.
If you're not taught that kindof level of to think or to be
challenged, you're not going to.
Most people aren't, and thedata suggests that 60% of people
, when presented withinformation that challenges what

(01:06:42):
they learned in school, won'taccept it.

Speaker 2 (01:06:46):
That's painful.

Speaker 1 (01:06:47):
And that's across all healthcare professions.
So, massage therapy data onmassage specific, but as well as
physiotherapy, chiropractic,medical doctors, occupational
therapists so that baselineeducation is also so important
and, like we started off withthis conversation, we are in
such a great place as aprofession to provide really

(01:07:08):
good quality care for any typeof whether it's death or any
type of MSK thing but we need tobe educated better on many of
these basic principles in orderto do that most effectively,

(01:07:28):
because some of us, likeyourself, will come into this in
your career and you'll realize,oh, I want to change because
this doesn't make sense to meand this is a better way.
A lot of people won't.
They feel very resistant to it,which is-.

Speaker 2 (01:07:42):
I remember, yeah, yeah, I remember in my own
experience, when I was freshlygraduated.
I was, I kept up, I wasprepared for my boards and I
jeez, I'll never forget the egodeath that happened because I
was.
I think I was on a Reddit boardsomewhere and on some sort of a
massage therapy board andsomewhere in there someone

(01:08:06):
called into question whether ornot trigger points actually
exist, and I remember being likewhat, that's what?
What did I learn then?
Like, why wasn't there moreemphasis placed on here is a
thing, here is a theory, here isthe weaknesses behind the
theory.

(01:08:26):
You pick your philosophy behindit, at least right.
And so when I read thatheadline, I mean to your point
about, you know, 60% of peopledon't want to change the way
that they're thinking.
After their college education, Iremember one of the first
things I thought in that acutemoment of like, the stress
involved in like oh shoot.

(01:08:46):
Like I thought I was taughtsomething very real, very
tangible.
I thought what exactly did Ipay for?
You know, and I think for somepeople, when you're looking at
the amount of financialinvestment involved in going to
massage therapy college becauseit's not a small investment you

(01:09:07):
think that you're.
I mean, I thought that I wasgetting.
I thought I was gettingsomething different is what I'm
trying to say.
And the thought of spending thatmuch money on something that
was suddenly called intoquestion by some random person
on an internet board.
You know, that was a hard.
I thought about that one for afew days.

(01:09:29):
Oh yeah, you know how much?
Okay, because then it's like,oh my God, how much do I have to
unlearn so much and relearn somuch, so much, and so, yeah,
it's just one of those thingswhere I mean, am I surprised
that the statistic is 60% ofpeople?
Frankly, yes, I would thinkthat it would be lower than that

(01:09:51):
, but you know, people have ahard time changing their minds
when they feel like theirworthiness is in question.

Speaker 1 (01:10:01):
For sure.
I think it's both a sunk costfallacy.
It may be a maybe that's whatit is when you've paid a lot of
money into something, and yeah,I think that's the right term.

Speaker 2 (01:10:09):
I think that's the right term.
100%.

Speaker 1 (01:10:11):
Yeah, and I like yeah because I don't know what it is
in New Brunswick, but I meanwhen I went to school here in
2003, it was like $30,000 fortuition alone.
I mean, I think when I finishedfrom our school after it was a
three year program then, or twoand a half year program, then it
was like I think I probablyowed $60,000.

Speaker 2 (01:10:31):
Oh man, I said oh yeah, we got to do better than
that, guys.

Speaker 1 (01:10:35):
Yeah and then you realize, and at the time and I
just, I like same as you, like Iwent and I learned all the
stuff in school and I was like,okay, well, this some of the
stuff you know, but like didn'treally make sense.
But you kind of just you'relike, well, they're teaching,
this has got to be true andthere must be evidence out there
somewhere.
And I feel dumb sometimes, butI'll admit it that I, you know,

(01:10:58):
I had a university degree.
I had a science degree from theUniversity of Victoria and we
talked a lot about research andstuff.
But in the program we were justkind of just fed this
information and it's kind oflike you teach the anatomy and
the physiology and thekinesiology, which is like, okay
, that's science, we know thesethings exist.

(01:11:21):
But then when you're spun the,the manual therapy, the hands-on
stuff, they kind of blend itnicely into this sciencey
sounding stuff.
So they kind of you know, Ihate to admit it, but like I was
tricked, like where a lot of usare tricked, because you're
like, oh, yeah, that's right,that makes sense.

(01:11:41):
Yeah, there's fascia, I know.
Yeah, there's nerves, I know,there's arteries, I know there's
things and this is what we'redoing to them Without really
thinking or questioning.
Is that what we're doing tothem?

Speaker 2 (01:11:51):
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, well, because think ofhow much effort it would take
for your brain to wrap its headaround.
At every turning point you'regonna question where the
instructive material is comingfrom, like no, you've already
have so much stuff to learn onyour plate.
It would just be.
I mean, it would turn it into afour-year program instead of a
two-year program over here, ifyou were doing it adequately,

(01:12:13):
you know.

Speaker 1 (01:12:14):
Yeah, it should be a four-year program.

Speaker 2 (01:12:16):
I agree.

Speaker 1 (01:12:17):
Some people argue against that.
I think it should be a degreeprogram.
Personally, but, like you and Iboth been to university and I
think we see the value in thatkind of that different type of
learning environment.
I was at a conference inWinnipeg in March, april this
year, may April or May this year, and that topic came up about

(01:12:40):
education and I had said in thispanel discussion that I thought
it was a good idea foruniversity education.
A lot of people really didn'tlike that because they're like
well, that way there's so manyfantastic massage therapists out
there that they would finduniversity is just a barrier and
think well, is it a barrier,like if it's just an?
Undergraduate degree, you wouldapply and you would get in.

(01:13:01):
As a mature student you couldget in.
I think it's usually 23,.
They don't really care aboutyour undergrad or your high
school stuff anymore and a lotof people in the RMT profession
don't are mature like they go inafter they, when they're in
their 20s or 30s.
Right, not everybody, but a lotof people do, and I thought
that's just a weak argument,like you could just go in and
you would you get education, butyou'd have maybe a little bit

(01:13:23):
more education.

Speaker 2 (01:13:25):
Right.

Speaker 1 (01:13:26):
When I look at the you know and when you look at
the cost, it was a cost to go touniversity.
It's still cheaper than you,than most universities are
cheaper than massage schooltuition-wise.

Speaker 2 (01:13:37):
Wow, we're pretty close right.
Like I was just looking here.

Speaker 1 (01:13:39):
I had a conversation with somebody recently about
this and I was like, well, letme take a look and see what's
the tuition at UVic, you know,and it's like I don't know what
it was like $4,000, $4,500 asemester and so okay, so times
that you know it's what's that,say $8,000 or $9,000 a year
times four years you're lookingat that $30,000 to $40,000.

Speaker 2 (01:14:02):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:14:03):
And that's a degree where you could do something
else if you wanted to later on,absolutely.
You can spend a very similaramount as a massage therapist.

Speaker 2 (01:14:13):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:14:14):
As a massage therapist.
It's full-time school, soyou're probably not working
part-time A lot of people don'tWhereas if you went to
university you'd have yoursummers off or you know your
schedule is kind of you couldget a part-time job in there if
you needed to.
It's kind of a similar pricecost With a massage therapy.
Unfortunately, your degreeisn't transferable.
It's kind of like a dead end.
You're a massage therapist andyou can do things around massage

(01:14:35):
therapy but say you want to bea nurse or you want to be an
occupational therapist or aphysical therapist.
You want to do somethingcompletely different.
You kind of have to go back todo a lot of your education
because it's not transferable.

Speaker 2 (01:14:44):
Right, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:14:48):
I think that we need more education, but yeah, I
completely agree with you.

Speaker 2 (01:14:53):
I mean, it is where it's definitely goes back to
again, like trying to find a wayto elevate this profession, and
I mean we're going to have tofind a way to be flexible if we
want to achieve that.
Yeah, that's what it's going totake, and if 60% of us don't
want to be flexible, how long isit going to take for us to

(01:15:14):
elevate?
That's the question.

Speaker 1 (01:15:17):
Yeah, yeah, it's probably going to be when you
and I are retired.
We're tired of it because thenwe'll kind of be like, well,
we've tried to do something, youknow Right.

Speaker 2 (01:15:28):
We did our best.
We did our best.

Speaker 1 (01:15:30):
You know, someone's got to do something else to pick
it up behind us.
You know, and Well, just likethe stuff that I'm doing with my
, I do my course creatorsMastermind Group right is just
trying to get moreevidence-based educators out
there so that there's morepeople presenting better quality
supported content to theprofession, so we can create
wide spread kind of systemicchange and that will hopefully

(01:15:54):
put pressure on the colleges, onthe massage schools, on the
various stakeholders, theprofessional associations, when
they start to say, oh people,want to learn more about this
stuff.

Speaker 2 (01:16:05):
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, I think that's brilliant.
I think that's brilliant, yeah,yeah.
The reason why it's sobrilliant is one of the reasons
is because if you go to Again,this goes back to you don't get
the research focus unless you goto university, right?
So if you're trying, if you'rea massage therapist who wants to

(01:16:26):
create CE content or courses,it is stressful to consider how
you're going to elevate it, toagree where you would be
comfortable rolling it out tothe general public, especially
where the rhetoric is let'selevate this, right.
If you don't have thebackground and research, then

(01:16:47):
how are you going to do thatcomfortably or confidently?
So if you're providing a placewhere there is discourse about
it, there is support around it,you know peer mentorship and
that sort of thing, I mean Ithink that's brilliant because
it's a stumbling block Forpeople that I know, that I
graduated with, who are thinkingof creating their own CE

(01:17:08):
courses.
That is a stumbling block.
How do I make this good?
What is good?
Yeah, what is the standard?
Now?

Speaker 1 (01:17:19):
How do I define good?
Yeah, and I see it all the timeand I have definitely.
I feel like I've calmed down alot.
I used to get very upset overseeing crap online and things
people were saying and I used towant to argue, but I just
figured it just got my bloodpressure up and it wasn't good
for me.
I'd rather bring peopletogether than push them apart,

(01:17:41):
so I just kind of leave thingsbe as much as I can and just try
and do things like thesepodcasts and other stuff that
I'm involved in, just to say,hey, here's the messages.
This is all positive.
Just because maybe you're doingsomething that I don't agree
with doesn't mean I don't likeyou, but I think you can do
better.

Speaker 2 (01:17:56):
Yeah, you know how you're not going to elevate.
This profession is where wecreate and fighting between
groups, where we just stagnatebecause we're all busy yelling
at each other and being keyboardwarriors, not being brave
enough to say the same thing totheir actual face.

Speaker 1 (01:18:12):
Oh yeah, I hate that stuff, the keyboard warrior.

Speaker 2 (01:18:14):
Yeah, yeah.
I've seen people takescreenshots of individual
providers, the menu, the thingsthat they provide in clinic and
oh, they do cranial sacraltherapy, like.
Let's all point and laugh thatkind of vibe Bullying.
It is bullying and it's aconversation where, first of all

(01:18:36):
, it's not happening in goodfaith and, secondly, if you're
hoping to elevate thisprofession, you're going to have
to get those people on yourside and that's not going to
happen.
If you're trying to publiclyhumiliate them, they're not
going to bite.
If anything, they'll get moredefensive and dig a deeper hole
and be more resistant to change.
So yeah, I'm with you.

(01:18:57):
I just I don't.
I think there is enough angeronline for it.
I just I keep my head down.
I teach the way that I want toteach Evidence-based gentle.
I have to be gentle with peoplethat think in a different way,
because it's through patientconversation that we can kind of
come together a little bitbetter.

(01:19:18):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:19:20):
Yeah, gentle is key.
Some people like to be pushed,but some people they just push
back harder.
Yeah, but just to furtheremphasize the point you made
about.
So a barrier like researchright, is the barrier is and the
danger.
What we have and this issomething that I see all the
time is we see people out thereteaching C's that have the best

(01:19:42):
of intentions, but they'rebasing the premises of their
course on not good research orbased on some anatomical
principle or some piece ofanatomy, and then they're making
wild claims about it.
I see that all right, like justbecause something exists doesn't
mean you can change, or itdoesn't mean you have to change

(01:20:05):
if further symptoms to getbetter and we see a lot of that
like let's use the SOAS.
For example, there's a lot ofpeople out there that will teach
courses like the SOAS and backpain and there's actually not
one piece of evidence I've everseen that says the SOAS has any
relation to back pain.
But then people are like but Itreat the SOAS all the time.
I'm like there's a lot ofreally good explanations for why

(01:20:26):
that treatment can help the lowback.
It's not because you'readdressing the SOAS Right, but
when you're looking at butpeople will base these I'm just
picking on SOAS.
So I'm sorry if anyone'slistening.
Actually I'm not sorry if you'reoffended by SOAS, but there's a
lot of research out there thatsays, yeah, this is what the
SOAS does, this is where itexists and this is how it moves.

(01:20:47):
And then there's these biginferences made that it's
somehow related to pain orsomehow related to pain.
The only paper I've ever seenand I've done a deep dive into
the SOAS research is there's avery rare cancer that can infect
that.
The SOAS in that area.

Speaker 2 (01:21:07):
OK.

Speaker 1 (01:21:07):
That's pretty darn rare.
That's it.
Low back pain is not related toit.
Now people are going to say, ok, well, what about?
You know, but I do the thing, Ipush in there, I do the
crosshands or whatever I do, andpeople feel better.
I'm like, yeah, if youunderstand the evidence of how
manual therapy works, yourealize you're impacting an
entire system and you can createan analgesic response from

(01:21:28):
treating kind of anywhere andthat could still impact the
person's low back pain in apositive way.
But people don't.
That's stuff, like we said,that's just not presented and
it's very fundamental knowledgethat is missed and that's my
long way of saying is that usingevidence the wrong way can be,

(01:21:51):
at the worst, dangerous or atleast less, never helpful.

Speaker 2 (01:21:55):
Absolutely.
I do have a theory why there'sso much emphasis on like
modalities and anatomy-specificcourses.
I'm kind of thinking, and maybethis is just like one way of
looking at it, but I just feellike people think there's
something sexy about it.
It's just something that it'smarketable.

(01:22:16):
Oh look, I do cupping now.
And now, all of a sudden, thegeneral public's like, oh my
gosh, she does cupping now.
Or like, oh, she took thisother piece of you know, and
it's just so marketable.
And there is a lot of like ohmy god, look, real change.
And I'm doing like the errorquotations Real change, like,
look, I have like deep darkcircles on my back because they

(01:22:36):
put a cup on, so it must havedone something right.
And I feel like that'sdangerous too, because again,
it's the idea that you're kindof leading people to stray as to
.
You know, don't mistake theoryfor actual truth, the theory of
how something works versus howit actually works or a best

(01:22:57):
understanding of it.
Those two things are not thesame thing and often they're
marketed as truth and I do findthat problematic.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:23:06):
Yeah, I agree, the modality and kind of quick fix
and the acronyms out there arevery predatory.
And you know, people, I don'tcare what people do Like, I
don't care how you practice,whether you use cups or not, I
don't use them.
We're not allowed to use themin BC.
But even if we were, I wouldn'tBecause like what's the point.

(01:23:29):
You know like I don't see thepoint purposely, but they are
often marketed as this fix itthing and it sells, right.
It sells to RMTs who want totake courses and get certified
and that stuff.
I am not convinced that thepublic really cares how many
acronyms you've been trained in.

(01:23:49):
I'm not convinced that thepublic really cares if you do
cupping or needling or whetheryou do.
You know e-stem, or whether youdo barefoot or something I
don't think the public reallycares.
That's my personal opinion,because on my website for years
now I sold my practice in 2022and my shares of the clinic and

(01:24:12):
I just have a small practice outin my house, but in our clinic
and we had a big clinic PhysiosChiro's Massage Acupuncture and
we had about 15, 16 people there.
We never once listed on ourwebsite what we did.
I'm a massage therapist, I'm achiropractor, I'm a physio.
These are some of thepopulations I like to work with.

Speaker 2 (01:24:33):
Right.
That's definitely yeah, that'sagainst the grain of what most
people, most clinics do.
Yeah, 100%.

Speaker 1 (01:24:40):
And you know what?
I never once and I was owner ofthat clinic for 12, 13 years,
maybe we never once had somebodycome in who asks like, oh, do
you do this?
They didn't, they just wantedto.
They're like I want to seesomebody that's going to make me
feel better, I like to have myback cracked, I like to do
exercise, I like to get massage,I like to get used, whatever it
was they would choose.
People don't ask, but I thinkin our profession and yeah, what

(01:25:03):
you said you look at clinicsand they list all the things I
do this, this, this and thisthing.
I'm like people don't care.

Speaker 2 (01:25:10):
Yeah, I could be wrong.

Speaker 1 (01:25:12):
But in my experience, which I know is a dangerous
thing to say, I never, ever hadanybody ask me do you do this
thing?

Speaker 2 (01:25:20):
Right, yeah, I did have one person.
I remember the moment that aperson that I had treated that I
hadn't seen in a while, thateventually came back because the
other massage therapist thatthey had switched to clearly
show that they did cupping.
I decided to take thatavailability offline and I just

(01:25:46):
thought like if somebody wantsit, I'll just provide it.
Then you know whatever what'sthe big deal.
And then they came back andthey're like oh well, I saw that
you took it off, so I justassumed that you didn't do it
anymore and I thought, well,shoot, ok, rats, ok.
Well, I feel like I'm constantlythis is something that I

(01:26:08):
struggle with myself, because Isee the dangers involved in
listing everything out like amenu, at the same time that I'm
recognizing that for some people, they will bother to look
through that entire menu.
And also there is a level ofself-consciousness.

(01:26:33):
I get uncomfortable when Ithink about OK, well, I'm
pointing myself towards thisevidence-based, let's all
elevate the practice.
Da, da, da, da.
And there's a level ofself-consciousness that comes
along with that, because I dooffer things like cupping and I
do offer things like cranial,sacral, and I feel like I'm here

(01:26:53):
on this podcast talking aboutevidence-based stuff and if a
person wanted to do the keyboardwarrior thing, they would just
pop onto the menu, grab ascreenshot, post it onto
Facebook and say look, she'sfull of shit.
But the reason why I providesome of those things, like you
said before, is that people, ifit's patient-centered care or

(01:27:15):
person-centered care and theyask for it, ok, I'll offer it.
Whether or not I believe in thetheory of what, for example,
cranial sacral teaches I mean, Ipersonally don't I think
there's other drivers but I havefound the benefits of doing
cranial sacral holds on peoplebecause it's not as stimulating

(01:27:38):
as massage.
It's a static hold and for somepeople that just really need to
decompress don't do anythingstimulating, even if it is
effleraage.
I treat some people that aresensitive to those People with
like aledinian stuff like that.
Yeah, you know they'd rather beheld.

Speaker 1 (01:27:58):
Yeah, yeah, for sure.

Speaker 2 (01:28:00):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:28:01):
And that's such a it's an important point you make
there too, ashley, is that thething is, is we name these
things?
We name these things cranial,sacral, we name them myofascial,
we name them effleraage, we'rejust like.
I think we should just name itall just manual therapy, manual
therapy.
And so, yeah, you're like, yeah,maybe I'm doing what's or
people are going to call itcranial hold.
But I know what I'm doing isI'm just holding this person in

(01:28:25):
a place that makes me feelcomfortable and maybe I'm just
putting my hands on it, MaybeI'm doing a little push, pull,
twist the skin here, maybe alittle tilt whatever it might be
that makes it feel better, butthat doesn't have to be cranial,
sacral, that could just be amanual approach that works for
that person.
So we can simplify, because I dothe same thing too, like I, you
know, with people that come inand I will, you know, use a

(01:28:47):
variety of different techniques.
Sometimes it's Swedish,sometimes it's.
You know the way I always liketo joke about it is.
I'm like do you like the swimmytechnique?
Take the slow, stretchy skintechnique.
Do you like the one the me tohold you technique?
Do you want?
Like, do you want anoscillation, like, do you want
the pokey, do you?
Want a broad pokey, or thefingertip pokey you know, and
then I mean, I do kind of.
I know that some people mightthink that doesn't sound

(01:29:09):
professional, but I don't know.
I have my own way ofinteracting with my clients and
they're like, oh, I like it whenyou do the.
Can you just do the broad, likesweeping thing?
I'm like, yeah, I'll focus onthat and we'll focus on this
area and we'll blend in a coupleother things.

Speaker 2 (01:29:22):
Great you know, and that's so, that way we're not
naming it, I'm just.

Speaker 1 (01:29:26):
but they're describing the kind of touch and
whether that works best forthem.
And if they don't know, thenwe'll just try a few different
things to see what feels good,and sometimes that might be, say
, it's cranial, maybe they'vegot, you know, terrible headache
and maybe I'm just gonna likehold their skull for half an
hour.

Speaker 2 (01:29:44):
Yeah, that's it.

Speaker 1 (01:29:46):
Yeah, it doesn't have to be cranial sacral.

Speaker 2 (01:29:48):
Mm-hmm.

Speaker 1 (01:29:50):
That's the way I like to think of it.

Speaker 2 (01:29:51):
I totally agree Simplify it right.

Speaker 1 (01:29:53):
We can.
I think we can throw it allinto the same bucket of manual
and just call it manual therapy.

Speaker 2 (01:30:00):
Yep, I agree.

Speaker 1 (01:30:03):
Yeah, well, this has been wonderful.
I feel like we could just chatforever.
I'm gonna have to do anotherone of these.
Yeah, yeah, especially when wehad the half hour of stuff we
didn't record beforehand.

Speaker 2 (01:30:13):
Yes, that would have been a good conversation too.
Absolutely yeah, yeah, we'll,yeah, we'll get.
I'm sure we'll have morechances to get together again.
Oh, for sure, I appreciate it.
That was a great chat.

Speaker 1 (01:30:23):
yeah, yeah, thank you .
So for people, do you want to?
Do you want to just provide anyinformation for people to get
ahold of you if they have anyquestions?
Maybe people are interested inyour course.
I know it's not launched as abook or thing, but I know you
are planning on launching itsometime in the future.
Maybe just give some people howto get ahold of you.

Speaker 2 (01:30:40):
For sure you can find me on social media, so I do
have a LinkedIn.
Just search my name.
It's Ashley A-S-H-L-E-Y,brazicky, I'll slow down.
It's BRZ, e-z-i, c-k-i, so I'mon LinkedIn.
I'm on Instagram I think myhandle is ashrmtdeathdula, so

(01:31:03):
you can find me there.
I do also have a Facebook, butI'm less active there just
because I find it a prettynoxious place, so I don't love
to spend my time there.
But those are probably theeasiest ways of getting ahold of
me on social media.
I do have an email,ashrmtmentorgmailcom, and I do

(01:31:25):
have a website that's beingworked on as we speak, so that
will go live sometime soon andI'll be providing lots of
resources there as well, andI'll post onto my socials when
it's active.
So that's coming course iscoming one step at a time, and,
yeah, I'm so looking forward tointeracting with other massage

(01:31:46):
therapists about this topic.
It's something I'm reallyexcited to do, so hopefully
people see as much value in itas I see in it.

Speaker 1 (01:31:54):
No, I think it'll be great, ashley, I think your
passion comes through,definitely, and how you talk
about the topic and talk aboutwhat it is you want to offer.
So I look forward to seeinggreat things from you.
So thank you.

Speaker 2 (01:32:05):
Awesome.
Thank you so much for having me.

Speaker 1 (01:32:07):
Thank you for listening to Purvis Versus.
If you enjoyed this episode,please give it a five star
rating and share it on all yourfavorite social media platforms.
You can follow me on Instagramor Facebook by searching at
ericpurvisrmt, and please headover to my website,
ericpurviscom to see a fulllisting of all my live courses,
webinars and self-directedcourse options.
Until next time, have a greatday and thanks for listening.

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