December 8, 2023 • 66 mins
In this episode we navigate the challenges and joys of working in an unregulated province with experienced massage therapists, Michelle Smith and Monty Churchman. From the ins and outs of insurance battles to the complexities of labor mobility, Michelle and Monty shed light on the lesser-known aspects of this profession and how it's shaped by the absence of regulation. They candidly share their personal experiences, including Monty's disappointment over the Olympics hurdle, adding a personal touch to the broader issues at play.
We explore the role of massage therapy associations, as we journey through their strenuous efforts to establish a regulatory college in Saskatchewan. Unpack the history and the financial implications of these associations with us. Listen in as we highlight the role of associations in the profession and emphasize the importance of quality assurance and ongoing education.
Finally, we conclude our discussion with a focus on the future. Michelle offers her valuable insights on the need for improved regulation and the mammoth potential within the massage therapy profession. Hear from us about the current state of entry-to-practice education and the daunting task of establishing a standardized curriculum among various schools. We also highlight the importance of board exams and evidence-based education in maintaining the integrity of the profession. So don't miss out on this episode - it's one that promises to expand your understanding of the profession.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Eric (00:10):
Hello and welcome to the Purves Versus Podcast.
My name is Eric Purves.
I'm an RMT course creator,continuing education provider
and advocate for evidence-basedmassage therapy.
This episode features MichelleSmith and Monty Churchman, who
are massage therapists based inSaskatchewan.
We begin our conversationtalking about sport massage and
then the focus of our discussionmoves to the pros and cons of
(00:30):
working in an unregulatedprovince.
Thank you for being here andenjoy this episode.
Hello everybody, and thanks forlistening to another episode of
Purvis Versus.
Today we've got two wonderfulguests from Saskatchewan.
We've got Michelle Smith, who'sback for her second episode,
and we welcome Monty Churchman.
So thanks for you guys forbeing here today.
Just before we get started intoour conversation today, which
(00:54):
is going to hopefully focus onmassage therapy regulation and
what it's going to be like foryou, we're going to hear your
perspective on what it's likeworking in an unregulated
province like Saskatchewan.
I want you guys just tointroduce yourself, so go ahead,
michelle.
Michelle (01:10):
Thanks, eric.
My name is Michelle Smith, asEric has mentioned, and I'm a
registered massage therapisthere in Saskatchewan, working
out of Saskatoon.
Yeah, I've been practicingsince 2014.
Also a kinesiologist andexercise physiologist by
profession originally, and thenI switched into the career of
(01:31):
massage therapy after about 15years doing my kinesiology
profession.
Eric (01:39):
Wonderful, and Monty, just tell us a little bit about you.
Monty (01:41):
All right, monty Churchman, I'm from Saskatoon,
saskatchewan.
I started my first practice inOctober of 1996.
So I'm still practicing.
That's 27 years later, if I dothe math.
I've spent pretty much myentire career practicing in
Saskatoon, a little bit rurallyas well.
But I am heavily involved insport massage and I also belong
(02:04):
to the Canadian Sport MassageTherapist Association, so we're
a national organization thatalso practices the effective use
of sport massage therapy forathletes, especially at the COC
and IOC level.
Wonderful.
Eric (02:23):
So with the CSMTA stuff do you have the full certification
?
Monty (02:30):
Yeah, I do.
Through the CSMTA have the fullcertification, so I'm
considered a sport fellow.
Eric (02:34):
Nice, nice.
Have you had a chance to go tolike Olympic Games or Trials or
Commonwealth or any of thatstuff that's what I'm building
for.
Monty (02:43):
actually, I was just at the Commonwealth Games last year
working for Team Canada, so Igot a chance to work with a
variety of athletes, which wasan amazing experience.
Prior to that, for the lastseven years, I've been part of
the Para Swim Canada group, soI've been working with them
since 2015.
Eric (03:04):
Lovely.
It's exciting.
When I first started practicingI guess 17 years ago now I was
heavily involved at the CSMTAand I did the.
I never did the finalcertification because the
Olympics came to Vancouver atthat time and I was doing all my
certification looking forwardto like I'm going to do it, I'm
(03:25):
going to work at the Olympics,and they didn't actually take
anybody like hardly anyone thatwas actually part of the CSMTA.
They just took their favoritepeople or just random.
It was who you knew.
Monty (03:37):
So as far as your comment there, eric, I believe that
wouldn't have been the CSMTA,that was most likely the Van Ock
Organizing Committee that allkind of went to hell in a
handbag.
Eric (03:49):
Yes, and I should be.
Yeah, thanks for clarifying.
I didn't mean to throw theCSMTA under the bus there.
It was the Van Ock OrganizingCommittee that they chose their
therapists from the people thatwere organizing.
That kind of took who theywanted.
But it was unfortunate becausethe impression I had been made
to believe and from the people Iknew in the CSMTA for my three
(04:10):
or four years involved with them, was that the organizing
committees or Sport Canada orwhoever would go to them to
choose their therapists and thatin this case it didn't happen.
I live in BC.
At the time, actually, my dadhad a condo right in downtown
Vancouver I could have stayed at.
So it was like perfect for meto go and I didn't get the
opportunity.
So I kind of it kind of left abad taste in my mouth and I just
(04:32):
said, ah, you know what, that's, okay, I'll.
I had young kids at the timeand I was like this is a lot of
work anyway, so I just left ityeah well.
Monty (04:42):
Well, further to that, this might be a good time to
talk about it because this willtie into our conversation, since
we're on the topic of sport.
So the problem, one of theissues that I've had with living
in an unregulated province isthe fact that there's not that
same labor mobility, especiallyin the sporting world.
So as a CSMTA and we were calledsport massage therapists back
(05:04):
then, but recently, in the lasttwo and a half years, we've had
to change that designationbecause registered massage
therapist was a protected titleand we couldn't use sport
massage therapists.
So we recently had to changethat to sport fellow instead of
certified sport massagetherapist.
So that that's a whole can ofworms we could get into.
But this also affected it interms of me or any other
(05:28):
unregulated province working inanother regulated province for
this type of games.
So I applied, but they wouldn'ttake me because insurance
wouldn't cover me in a regulatedprovince.
Different story if I was with aspecific team.
If I was actually with the teamCanada the alpine skiing, the
(05:49):
team would have covered me in BCto work with them, but I
couldn't go as a registeredmassage therapist or as a sport
therapist and work in anunregulated province because of
insurance issues.
Eric (06:00):
That's so crazy to me.
Even though your education andyour experience could be more or
the same, or more, just becauseof being from Saskatchewan,
you're denied that opportunity.
Monty (06:15):
Yep, 100% and back then.
Keep in mind, in 2010, bc stillhad a 3300 hour requirement,
which they've since dropped, sowe weren't considered as peers
or, I guess, as equals in theregulated provinces.
Eric (06:28):
Wow, and that's that whole hour thing too here.
So, being in BC myself, it wasone of those things that we were
kind of told like you're thebest you know, you've had more
education anyway.
So as you're in school it'skind of like you're kind of
inundated with like how muchbetter your education is, and so
(06:49):
you kind of grow up and airquotes.
We all kind of grow up as atherapist thinking that our
education is great becausethat's what we're told and we're
made to believe.
But you know, in reality it's.
You know, if you, just becauseyou have more hours doesn't mean
is better education, and that'sthe and that's a big issue is I
think more education is better,like more education is better
(07:10):
than less education.
But the hour component to,particularly when a lot of it
was really not evidence-basedstuff, it was just filler, I
know I don't think it makes youa better therapist.
And then my experience teachingand and meeting therapists from
across Canada doesn't matterwhere you're from.
You can be from the territories, you'd be from BC, you can be
(07:30):
from anywhere in between, allthe way to Newfoundland, nova
Scotia, and there's fantastictherapists everywhere.
They have different numbers ofhours.
It's really comes down, I thinkto the individual, not the the
hours of learning that you get.
Monty (07:44):
That's my experience and sorry, I should let Michelle get
in here at some point but andit's the quality of the hours
that you're receiving, right.
So, like you alluded to earlier,is it filler, is it quality
hours that you're getting?
The?
The one exception that we'vehad and this has been a
difficult thing and I don't wantto get too much into this but
(08:06):
to take sport therapists fromQuebec.
They're the only province thatdoesn't have, I mean, they have
an $1100 program, I believe, andyou can build your way up, but
their minimum to practice as amassive therapeutic is $400.
So for us to take them on,because our basic requirement in
the CSMTA is that you have$2,200 of education and be a
(08:30):
member in good standing withyour provincial association so
we've had to really work andfinesse how we can get the
Quebec therapists to have theirhours up or their quality of
education up to join the CSMTA.
And and again, that's a wholeother can of worms.
We're not here to discuss themin terms of general regulation,
(08:51):
but that's just as an aside wow,that's okay, it's great.
Eric (08:54):
I like some.
I like a lot how theseconversations sometimes just
kind of roll with the punches,so to speak, go from one way to
the other.
But let's talk, let's talkabout the, let's talk about
regulation, because that waskind of the the key thing, and
so this, I think this does playinto it, which is which is great
.
So thanks for making thosepoints, monti.
But you know, you guys, being aSaskatchewan, let's let's just
throw the big question out thereare you pro regulation?
Michelle (09:17):
maybe we'll start with you, michelle, because we
haven't heard from you yet yeah,perfect in my pro regulation,
absolutely, and I'm proregulation for I mean what I
consider is the right reasons.
It's for the, for our publicsafety and for the reputation of
massage therapists in generalas a health profession.
(09:38):
So, yes, I am pro regulation inSaskatchewan what about you,
monti?
Monty (09:45):
100%, absolutely pro regulation, for sure that's an
easy, simple answer.
Eric (09:53):
What do you guys think the barrier is to regulation, like,
why is the Saskatchewan notregulated?
Monty (10:01):
well, we are legislated, now we are legislated, but the
transition committee between thethree associations have to work
to set up the college properlybefore we can actually get the
proclamation day.
For yes, we're regulated, sowe're.
We're half to three quarters ofthe way there, I guess, if you
(10:22):
will, and you guys have like a.
Eric (10:26):
Is there a date or a timeline where you're where they
expect?
You guys will have that to gothrough.
Michelle (10:31):
I mean initially the timeline was going to take five
years from when the threeorganizations came together.
However, covid came and wentand kind of prolonged that and I
know just from my short-termexperience being part of that
(10:53):
committee that was sort of thegoal.
But then government processtakes long period, no matter
what you're doing, and otherpriorities will come across the
desk.
So I think we can, probably I'm.
I mean, I'd be happy if we cansee that within the five years,
but I'm realistic and sayingmaybe seven Monti.
(11:15):
What do you think?
Monty (11:18):
well, I'm ever the optimist.
I don't know if it's the timeor place to give my history, but
I have literally been waitingfor 27 years, since I was told
we were going to be regulated.
And I've been fighting alongwith the or not fighting, but
working towards regulation eversince 1996.
(11:39):
So to see it actually get tothis stage it's like okay, well,
don't get the hopes up too much, but I would like to think we
would have it done in the nextthree years to finally get our
stuff together and have allthree associations and the
transition committee agree on aproper entrance exam, if you
(12:01):
will, or a proper board exam, ifyou will.
So I'm hopeful that they canwork together and get that done
in the next three years.
Eric (12:09):
I have something I'd like you guys to clarify too, just
because I would imagine mostpeople don't really know much
about it.
You have three differentassociations, so there's m tasks
, there's NHPC and what's thethird?
Simota, simota or TTA, yeah,yeah, okay yeah, and so NHPC and
Simota are not big and BC atall.
(12:29):
We only really have oneassociation, so you guys have
three.
Now all three of theseassociations need to come
together to kind of agree towork towards regulation, was
there?
How has that process been?
Because, if I remembercorrectly from talking to you
guys off air, you guys are, butyou, michelle and Monty are in
different associations.
(12:50):
Is that correct?
Michelle (12:51):
Yeah, yeah, that's correct all right.
Eric (12:53):
So, michelle, why don't you go first and then?
And, monty, what associationare you part?
Michelle (12:58):
of.
So I'm part of NHPC and Montyand I had a really great
conversation off air to preparefor this, and I learned a huge
volume of information about thepath to regulation prior to 2015
(13:19):
that Monty shared with me, andit's only been since about 2015
that NHPC has been quote-unquoteat the table, and that was
based on the ministry saying,okay, we need to have all of
these associations come together, agree on the process in order
(13:40):
to go forward again, go forwardagain, because there's more
backstabbing history that I wasnot aware about.
So, yeah, I mean, it's beeneight years now for NHPC working
collaboratively with the othertwo associations to get things
to the point where they aretoday.
Eric (14:04):
And I imagine that's probably.
Each association has their ownagenda of what they how they
want things to look.
Is that correct?
Michelle (14:11):
Yeah, that's correct.
I think one of the significantchallenges is that the two of
the of the three associations donot have what they call a board
exam to join their association.
Their requirements to be partof the association is being, you
know, a graduate of a 2200 hourmassage therapy program, and
(14:35):
then your English languagecompetency as well, and then
your first ACPR and criminalbackground record check.
So those are the onlyrequirements needed for the for
two of the three associations,and then Monte can speak to this
.
But the third association andpass actually has what they call
a board exam.
And then the third associationhas what they call their board
(14:58):
exam.
In order to be a member, theyhave to pass the board exam.
And so, from my experience, thethe biggest hurdle has been
agreeing upon whether or notcurrent massage therapists can
be grandfathered into thecollege, and that's a point of
contention I know two of thethree associations agreed that,
(15:22):
yes, the current massagetherapist should be
grandfathered in without havingto challenge a board exam, and
that's been rectified andsettled and everything is going
forward now.
And then the other contentionwas okay, any new graduates,
once the colleges struck, anynew graduates entering into the
(15:44):
college, must write a an exam.
But what does that exam looklike and what are we basing it
off?
So that those are the been theprimary sticking point.
Fhen also, what a lot oftherapists don't know is like
financially to start an actualphysical college takes a lot of
(16:05):
money and and nobody knows yetwhere this magic money is going
to come from to create an actualcollege.
So who's giving?
Who's giving what to to haveyou know you need your college
registrar, you need college, youknow other employees to start
the process and you can't just,you can't just weigh your hat on
(16:31):
the massage therapist payingtheir college dues or college
fees to fund this college.
So I think that's also a bigquestion mark that's up in the
air right now is where's themoney coming from to actually
then see this go forward?
Once the minute free says yay,okay, we've passed this, but
then we still need X amount ofmillions of dollars, right, so
(16:54):
yeah, it's not a cheap process,for sure.
Eric (16:59):
Maybe we'll we can talk a bit more about that in a minute.
I just want to, so I want toyour mtas, or so is mtas the
largest association inSaskatchewan.
Monty (17:09):
Well, now are you talking in terms of members or in terms
of being known, I suppose?
Eric (17:16):
Let's go members.
How many members does mtas havelike compared to the other ones
?
Monty (17:21):
Oh boy, that's a great question.
I should have had those facts.
I believe we're around 850members somewhere in that
neighborhood.
But talking with Michelle shehad mentioned to me that they
have.
They have more than that withinHPC for massage therapists,
which I was kind of unaware of.
I still thought we were thelargest association in
(17:41):
Saskatchewan.
So the numbers are fairlycomparable, fairly even, I
suppose.
So going back into my history ofmtas, when I joined there was
no mtas, so I'll give you therecollection as far back as I
can go.
So I started my schooling inJanuary of 1995.
And there was a class justbefore me six months prior.
(18:05):
So that would have been in Juneof 94.
And that was the year that itbecame mandatory to take a two
year 2200 hour program inSaskatchewan.
Prior to that it was 1100 hours.
So we were one of the groupahead of me and myself were the
first ones to take the 2200 hourprogram.
Now that's Saskatoon.
There's a couple of otherschools in Regina so I can't
(18:26):
speak to them.
I believe they probably wouldhave followed suit as well.
So back then there were threeassociations the SMTA, the
Saskatchewan Massage TherapistAssociation, the LCSP, fis,
which is out of England, and theAMTWP, the associate.
(18:47):
Sorry, hang on.
What did I say?
Now I'm getting confused.
Oh sorry, the PSRMT, theProvincial Society of Remedial
Massage Therapists.
So this is the one that Ijoined because legally you could
still work after one year.
So the requirement was is thatyou could join an association
(19:10):
and work after year one, but youhad to be enrolled in year two
to take that 2200 hours.
So that's what I did.
That's why people say well, howdid you start practicing in
October of 96 if you weren'tdone school?
That is how I came to startpracticing early.
So back then there was no boardexam, except for with with the
SMTA.
You had to write a board exam.
(19:31):
So, interestingly enough, Istepped up to be on the PSRMT's
executive committee because Icould be and a lot of people
were going.
Well, how can you be on theexecutive if you've only got one
year in?
You're going back to school andI said, hey, far be it from me
to want to step on toes, but Ihave the same education as you
do right now 1100 hours.
I don't see anybody elsestepping up to want to be a part
(19:54):
of your executive committee.
If you would like to, please gofor it because I've got a
second year of school to go and,like they usually do, nobody
stepped up.
So you're fine, you go ahead tokeep doing it.
So the goal back then in thatnext year of school, as I was on
the executive committee or amember at large, I guess I was
(20:14):
called was how can we getamalgamation?
We want to be regulated.
Back then in 95 the governmentsaid, hey, you three
associations get your shittogether, figure it out, because
we're not going to put anybodyat work, so get it done.
So all three associations workthat year quite a bit to
(20:35):
amalgamate and they amalgamatedin I believe it was December of
1996.
So they did the process ofamalgamation in 96.
And I can't say this for certain, but the very first board exam
that came out from M TAS, whichwas formed in 9596, we had to
(20:58):
take that first board exam.
So I believe we were the firstones that passed an MQE in
Saskatchewan to practice.
So there's the history thatMichelle didn't know, for when
we talked, and I think it wasnot even a year later, there
were some people that wereunhappy with the board exam
process again and they decidedto splinter off all of a sudden
(21:19):
again.
And that's when the AMTWP, theAssociation of Holistic Massage
Therapist and Practitioners,came in.
So all of a sudden we had twoassociations again.
We went, well, this isdefeating the purpose of what we
were just trying to do, and itsort of splintered off from
there again in terms of anotherassociation coming in.
(21:40):
And then I think AMTWP ended uparound 1992 is when they were
formed, and I think they wereout of Alberta, so they ended up
finding their way intoSaskatchewan and then they
created another group there.
Eric (21:59):
It's amazing to me how many different associations you
guys have had in a smallprovince in a short period of
time.
There's been numerous ones,have just kind of come and gone.
Monty (22:09):
Yeah.
So I mean you cut me offwhenever you want if you've got
side questions.
But that's the history of ourinitial amalgamation in
Saskatchewan and how, all of asudden, it kind of descended
because one set of people didn'tlike that, they didn't pass the
board exams or they didn't likethe rules.
So they thought, well, we'renot going to stop from
(22:29):
practicing, you can't put us outof work, so we'll go to another
association.
And so we were kind of rightback at square one.
But MTAAS had a lot of tractionearly on and put in a lot of the
time and work to get things upand running.
And that's where I think thedivide always was between MTAAS
members.
And then when NHPC came in andthe thought process was okay,
(22:54):
well, what are you doing?
You're not wanting to worktowards regulation, this is what
we've been pushing for and thisis what we need.
And even while similar wasn'there, it was the RMTA, I think,
the Registered Massage TherapistAssociation of Alberta, which I
believe turned into similarafterwards.
So that's some of thebackground there on that process
(23:14):
and as well, I've been part ofthe Education Committee way back
when and we took our exam and Ithink this is one of the things
that we felt set us apart wasthe fact that we weren't just
taking the school's word for itthat the students had passed
their $2,200 exam.
There was an independent examwhich we thought was unbiased
(23:36):
and an arbitrary exam, if I usethe right word there, that we
had come together to form sothat students coming out would
have to challenge a board examprovincially to make us kind of
on par with a lot of otherhealthcare professions.
I mean, I think I believe everyother healthcare profession has
(23:58):
a national exam that they haveto pass, or a provincial exam.
So why wouldn't we want one?
Why would we just want to takethe school's words coming out
saying, oh, they're fine,they're competent?
That's the very lay persons wayof describing it.
I don't know if you want to addanything there, michelle, to
that, or if you want me tocontinue.
Michelle (24:18):
No, I think it sounds great.
I think it's a good summary ofthe history and where you're at
today.
This is just my question and afood for thought.
I would like to question theother associations as to why
they do not have that competencyexam Right, just as a thought.
(24:45):
But that's for a podcast foranother day and maybe some other
guests for you, eric, to comeon as well too.
Monty (24:52):
And I do wonder, michelle , because M-TAS is dedicated
only to Saskatchewan?
Yeah, nhpc is.
Michelle (25:01):
Western.
Well, it's Canadian-wide right.
I mean, there's thousands andthousands of members in NHPC
NHPC represented but most ofthem are represented in the
unregulated provinces.
You've got Alberta,saskatchewan, manitoba, and I
know they had some members downeast as well too.
(25:22):
So the shift for them also isgoing to come once these other
provinces become regulated aswell.
Eric (25:33):
Yeah, it only makes sense.
Sorry, monty, you didn't meanto drop, you just said the
comment you said there, michelle, about the board exams.
And why would an associationnot want a board exam?
And the way I look at that andthis is just my biased response
that is that the associationsdon't really care about the
quality of the people that theyare regulating per se, because
(25:57):
it's a business, right.
They want many members in orderto survive as a business.
So putting a board exam inplace if not mandated, to me
would just be a barrier tomembership.
So it comes down to thetherapist.
Is the therapist?
Do they want to be a healthcareprofessional?
Yeah, is that their primaryfocus?
(26:20):
I'm not saying that people thatare part of NHPC or SMOTA aren't
.
I'm saying that, if you do, youwant to take the easy road or
you want to take the hard road.
Some people would be like, well, I want to prove to myself that
I can pass this board exam, soI want to view myself as being
at a higher level, maybe ofcompetency or education.
(26:40):
Maybe that person is going togo towards M-TAS because there's
this perception for them, Idon't know.
Versus the other ones, maybepeople are like, well, I know
I'm good, I don't need to takethis unnecessary cost of doing a
board exam, so I can stillpractice and be my member of
these associations, and I wouldassume that that is probably the
(27:02):
rationale for me associationsfor doing it that way.
I could totally be wrong andI'd be happy to be wrong.
Monty (27:08):
Well, question for you If you were to come out to
Saskatchewan right now, being ina regulated province, which
association would you join, andwhy?
Eric (27:18):
Well, I would join M-TAS 100% because it's just
Saskatchewan and that board examis that perceived extra
requirement to be there.
Also, I know the people atM-TAS, I know Lori and I know
Jane and I've known.
(27:39):
Danelda for a long time, soI've got connections there.
The only person I've ever knownas part of the HPC is Michelle,
and not that that is a barrierto knowing only one person, but
I think just the standards thatI know M-TAS better, I know what
they represent better.
Michelle (28:01):
But I think so.
If we talk about standards,though, like, okay, here's my
example.
Because when, when I wastalking to Monty about why I
chose NHPC is my association.
I took my schooling in Alberta.
I traveled out because andagain, this is my bias when I
(28:23):
reviewed the curriculum of theSaskatchewan schools in 2013,
2014, and saw that all theschools were still teaching
hydrotherapy spa type and again,no disrespect to spa services,
but they were, in theircurriculum had non evidence
based material.
(28:45):
I was like and again, I'm adifferent cat because of my
prior university background, butI was like, I'm not wasting my
time on that, I want to get tothe meat and potatoes of massage
.
You know anatomy, physiology,all that wonderful stuff Because
I know what kind ofpractitioner I want to be and I
(29:06):
want to be the practitionerconsidered to be a healthcare
provider.
So when I was going to schoolin Alberta, we actually weren't
even educated on mtas as anassociation, whereas the
Saskatchewan schools, mtasalways goes in and talks to
their students about like themas an association and things
like that.
So it wasn't even wasn't even aquestion for me.
(29:31):
It was like, oh, do I go withsome motor NHPC?
And at that time, some motor wasjust newly reformed and then it
was like, well, I knew of mtasand I knew they had a board exam
, but I would in my mind I meanit was my second career choice
down the road and I'm like I'vealready finished a degree, I've
(29:54):
already written a nationalcompetency exam for my exercise
physiology credentialing to helpI'm going to write another
board exam just to say I knowwhat I'm doing because I have
experience and double theeducation and so my, my choice
when going with with NHPC wasbecause it was just easy and I
(30:16):
didn't feel like people aregoing to look at me and say, oh
well, you're not mtas, so you're.
You're not at that level orstandard of practitioner because
you didn't quote unquote writea board exam.
But at the end of the day, thepublic doesn't know the
difference.
I've had treatments from alldifferent kind of therapists
who've been in NHPC or been anmtas and just because someone
(30:38):
writes the board exam doesn'tmake them a better practitioner.
And so I think his qualityassurance is what it is.
Monty (30:47):
And having said that, michelle, I've seen you, you've
treated me, you're actually Itrust you 100% with my care and
I'm not concerned that you'renot part of them tasks
whatsoever, but I think you're abit of an exceptional as well.
Yeah, because you have yourbackground and can.
A lot of people coming in don'thave the previous background
(31:07):
that you have.
So I think this ties in withthe educational standard.
We can touch on this brieflyand maybe come back to it later,
because I got too many hamstersrunning in the in the head
right now.
But the issue I don't think isthe schools like I don't think
NHPC or some other go into theschools and do any talks and
(31:29):
Saskatchewan like they do now.
Michelle (31:32):
Oh, yeah, what I was involved when I was involved
with the school here inSaskatoon.
Yeah, they definitely they didcome in.
Yeah.
Monty (31:42):
But so, speaking to that, mtas has always gone in and to
Eric's earlier comment, I thinkprobably the biggest thing that
I have been the most firm on isthat we have been mtas, in my
opinion, has been the leader intrying to get ready.
We've been trying to getregulation since the get go and
(32:04):
and we talked about this toothere's NDAs with the
association, so they won't talkabout financials or or any of
the other details, and thiscould have been one of the
barriers and less Michelle and Ihad talked, I wouldn't have
known that HPC had come to thetable in 2015.
I wouldn't have known that mtaswas doing the bulk of the work
from 95 to 2015 and and thatcontributing heavily financially
(32:27):
towards lobbying the government, and so now it's been eight
years that HPC has been helping.
So a lot of people have tothink swallow their pride and
all this other stuff and go OK,we're all working together.
Now I use the analogy withMichelle when we were talking
(32:48):
Eric, that I felt like thelittle red him.
I felt like mtas members and uswere doing, so to speak, all the
work and everything, andeverybody didn't want to do the
work.
They just wanted to eat thebread and jump on and share the
look, you know, sharing the inthe fruits or the spoils of the
labor.
And that seemed to be moreevident because we were so close
(33:10):
to regulation in 2015, to thebest of my knowledge, and I
believe that is when HPC said ohno, we need to actually lobby
the government.
And they went to the governmentand said no, no, no, no, no.
You can't just make mtas therePersonally, you have to make it
fair to everybody, and that, Ibelieve, is the timeline of when
they came to the table.
And so a lot of us were like OK,another setback in regulation.
(33:33):
Why is an HPC doing this Now,eight years later?
It makes sense because youdon't want to put anybody who's
got $2,200 or has got theirremedial massage therapy
certificate out of business.
And so I think that oldergeneration, myself included,
have had to come to terms and go.
Because I was asked in a surveyand I said you know, I want to
(33:55):
do what's good for theprofession of massage therapy.
I don't want to do necessarilywhat's best for an association,
because once the college getsset up Eric, you're right, 100
percent the associations will beonly there for membership and
money and doing what they needto to retain members.
Eric (34:12):
It's going to be the college that benefits the most
right For sure, and that's sucha great point is that you know
the associations are there forthe, there to support the
members.
So if you have threeassociations, really they're
going to be there to whetherit's provide courses or advocacy
to the public or whatever tobasically promote their
(34:33):
membership.
And they're a business theyneed to.
They need to attract members,whereas the college doesn't care
about that because everyone'sgoing to have to be a member of
the college and the college is Imean, I'm not sure the dues are
going to be in here in BC.
They're like $600 a year foryour college and then your
association dues are optional,but those can be another $600 to
$700 as well If you want to bepart of that.
(34:55):
Even if you want to just getinsurance, it's still not a
couple of dollars a month orsorry, not a month a year just
for like liability andoutpractice.
So to I don't know what.
What's the cost now to be amember of your guys association?
Because it's going to costpeople more, I imagine.
Monty (35:10):
We're 425 GST included.
Michelle (35:14):
Yeah, we're about there as well too, In that neck
of the woods.
Eric (35:18):
Right, so now add.
So now you're going to have toadd probably another $500 or
$600 on top of that to a collegedo and that's, and that's a,
that's a that's a barrier to topracticing as well, because you
know that's more money out ofyour pocket.
Michelle (35:32):
Or is there a barrier though for, like, do I have to
be part of an association whenI'm in the college?
No, right, I mean the call.
The purpose of a college is forthe public's protection, Right?
The associations advocate forthe massage therapists.
Yeah, and now theseassociations are trying to do
(35:53):
both.
How can you advocate formassage therapists and how can
you protect the public, right?
So once the college comes, aslong as you're a member of the
college in good standing, isthere, is there going to be a
rule that says you have to alsobelong to your provincial or any
massage association?
Monty (36:12):
No, but I believe I believe.
Correct me if I'm wrong but ifyou're part of an association we
would get a lot ofadvertisements about Eric's
courses or other instructorscourses that are coming up.
You get a better insurance ratebecause you get group insurance
rate.
You get different groups.
So there are some pros to stillbeing a part of an association.
Those are only three I canthink of top my head.
Eric (36:37):
Yeah, and it really depends on the numbers in your
association too, and what youknow the board of directors and
executive director, and you knowwhat do the members want, and
BCR association was we got over3,000, 3,500 members in our
association, and there's about50% of it because there's about
7,000 RMTs in BC, but half ofthem are in the association and
(37:01):
they do.
They do a conference every yearand they do advertising for
courses.
They've got like a newsletterthat goes out.
You know they lobby insurancecompanies they work with.
You know ICBC, so ourprovincial auto insurer,
worksafebc, so for workplacelike they do that kind of stuff,
which is great if you know, ifyou benefit from it.
(37:24):
The problem is, though and thisis what you see in BC here and
I'm sure it's in other regularprovinces too is that, because
the association is the oneworking for the profession and
it's a voluntary membership, allpeople that are not paying into
it still get all the benefitsof the work the association does
, and that creates a lot offrustration, from my observation
(37:50):
of conversations I've had withpeople Like do you realize that
you just getting all thesebenefits because of the money
that your colleagues are puttinginto it?
And that's something that maycome up in Saskatchewan once you
guys get that, is the peopledeciding on which association to
(38:11):
go to.
We're just pulling out alltogether and just being like I'm
just going to be a part of thecollege and because I have to
practice, I don't care about theadvertising and stuff.
Monty (38:20):
Yeah, well, and you know another thing with that is so in
the last two years, mtas hasnow waived the examination fee
that we used to charge, becausewe know so it was always a
break-even exam, because I'vebeen one of the provincial board
examiners off and on for 20some years probably, I guess,
(38:43):
and we just had a set of boardexams here a couple of weeks ago
and they're well attended.
And so just to go back to thatand I think this will tie in
nicely with are the schoolsdoing what they're supposed to
do and is the government doingwhat they're supposed to do with
the curriculum and the way it'ssupposed to be?
So we had always been told thatour exam was biased.
(39:04):
It was one way.
And so we worked with theschools.
We went into the schools andsaid, hey, here's your
curriculum.
This is government mandatedcurriculum that you're teaching.
What are you teaching, whatwe're going to be testing on?
Well, what do you think isimportant?
So we talked to all the schools.
We had roundtables back when Iwas more a part of the board.
(39:25):
Back then We'd have roundtablesevery year.
What's updated, what'sdifferent.
We're not going to basicallygive you our exam, but we're
going to tell you what isimportant.
You know that we feel wasimportant to know and so, after
many years of having that sameexam and too much pushback, we
decided okay, we need to go to ageneral competency exam.
(39:47):
So Lori and some of us exact,and the other exact more so than
me, because I wasn't on theexact, I was just a member at
large worked heavily with CMTBCto not replicate but to do a
mock British Columbia exam howcan we best formulate this?
(40:09):
And we went through a ton ofdifferent things to reformat
that exam to make it a generalcompetency exam.
And I remember I was, we werepart of a pilot project.
It was Don Wickstrom back thenthat was heading it up and I
think Cassandra Exner Williamswas our chief examiner.
But we revamped the whole M-TASexam to kind of go with what a
(40:30):
regulated provinces exam wouldlook like.
I believe that was 2000 and2015,.
I think 2016 is when we did therevamp and we met out in Craig
and we had all the Saskatchewanschools come in and we said,
okay, here's what we're thinkinghow an actual exam would go, a
(40:51):
mock competency exam and weasked for their feedback and we
got their feedback and we putthat into the exam, and so
that's what we currently have asour board exam for the last
eight years.
We still get lots of well, wedidn't know you were teaching
that, we didn't know we weredoing that, and it's like we've
gotten your feedback from theschools over the years.
The problem, I believe, lies inthe fact that a lot of the
(41:16):
schools, because they're payingso low, are only having people
that have been out for two orthree years and back then they
had an agreement between all theschools that they would.
If I'm right I hope I am thatno student would instruct for at
least three years.
They would have at least threeyears experience in the field
(41:37):
before coming back to the schooland instruct.
And now some of the schools arecoming back after a year or
they've just graduated and theyhave them teaching.
So that should be a big part onthe college but on the
government to go in and evaluatethe curriculum that they're
actually teaching.
Michelle (41:55):
Actually.
So I'm going to interject,monty, because earlier you had
said when you brought thoseschools together to review the
government mandated curriculum.
There's a little correctionthere for you Government only
approves the curriculum.
So when I had my experienceworking at the school that I was
working at here, in order to beapproved by the Ministry of
(42:19):
Post-Secondary Education andPrivate Vocational Schools here
in Saskatchewan, the school as abusiness, just like your
business, submits a proposal fortheir program and they submit
the school submits thecurriculum that the school wants
to teach and then thegovernment reviews everything
(42:41):
and makes sure it checks offeverything on the assessment
list from the ministry.
And then the ministry says,okay, your business plan or your
school curriculum looks great,but the government doesn't
compare it or doesn't look atwhat are the national standards
for massage therapists.
The government is looking at itfrom a does it meet the number
(43:03):
of hours that the school isadvertising it meets?
Does it meet the educationalcriteria that could make it
eligible for student loans?
So there's nobody at thegovernment saying, oh, yes, this
curriculum checks all the boxesfor massage therapy school.
No, this curriculum checks allthe boxes for a program which
happens to be massage therapy.
(43:23):
And so the government approvesthe school's curriculum that the
school presents to thegovernment.
So it's the schools, as aprivate business, have full
reign to develop whatevercurriculum they want for their
massage therapy program, and aslong as they're following the
(43:43):
same curriculum that wassubmitted to the ministry for
approval, then they're okay.
So it's actually the school'sresponsibility to make sure
they're doing what is just andwhat is what is right in the
eyes of our profession currently, right now, because there's
nobody monitoring the schools,coming in and saying hey wait,
(44:06):
why are you guys teaching how todo a mud wrap in a massage
therapy program?
Where is mud wrap in the in theevidence based efficacy
protocol for massage therapy?
How does that fit in?
Well, we've been teaching thisbecause this is how it's been
taught for the last 25 years.
So I think it's and again, thisis before my time coming into
(44:29):
this, but I think it's wonderfulthat MTAs sat down with all
these schools in 2016.
However, of that, that meetingin 2016, how many of those
school directors or headinstructors are even still
teaching number one and numbertwo?
None of those schools want toshare their curriculum.
It's very hush, hush, right,and so I can guarantee now I
(44:53):
know, I know of one school inthe city who's still teaching
very old, outdated informationto their students, and no one's
policing that for lack of betterwords.
So, yes, the ministry approvesthe curriculum because it said
that this school can get fundingas a private vocational school
and they can give the studentstudent loans.
(45:14):
It checks those boxes, butnobody except for a college will
be actually reviewing thecurriculum, and so I think
that's the benefit too.
When a college comes in is likewhat kind of curriculum are you
guys teaching, right?
Are you guys teaching what'sevidence based and substantial
in today's you know healthcareplatform, or are you just
(45:35):
teaching hocus, pocus let'sthrow some mud wrap on their
feet and call it massage therapy, right?
And so I think We've come backto this.
I think all three of us canagree on this right.
These new grads are only asgood as the school they attend,
and we need to do a better jobof educating potential massage
(45:55):
therapists to really dig deepand look at the school's
curriculum before they shell outtheir $20,000, $30,000, but
also dig deep and ask, well, whois instructing and how long
have they been practicing as amassage therapist?
Right, and then make yourchoice, not because it's in your
city or not, because you can doa hybrid learning model, look
(46:17):
at the curriculum, look at theinstructors and decide from that
in order to make sure you'redoing the right thing.
Right, because nobody else ischecking in on that right now
currently.
Yeah.
Eric (46:29):
And I was just.
Monty (46:31):
Oh sorry.
This is another reason why Ireally enjoy conversing with
Michelle.
I love how you just articulatedthat.
That was so well said.
Thank you for educating me alittle bit more.
I know we talked about itbriefly before, but that's a
fantastic explanation and Iwould say that that gives a
little more credence to why I'mexcited about regulation and why
(46:54):
whether it's the best exam outthere.
That's why I think M-TAS wentfor the exam, because you don't
know what the schools are doing.
We're actually looking atprotecting the public by having
that qualification.
So thanks again, Michelle.
Appreciate that, no problem,M-T.
Eric (47:14):
And I just wanted to.
That was great, michelle, andthank you for saying that.
I just wanted to add to thattoo, because the biggest problem
that a profession has and I getpeople, I would say, weekly,
emailing me and some people hateme for saying this and some
people are like thanks forsaying that is the biggest
problem our profession has isour entry to practice education
as shit.
For the most part, it's notvery good across the board,
(47:36):
across the country, and a lot ofit's outdated.
A lot of it is what you said,michelle, is like.
It's just the way things havealways been done, so, therefore,
it gets passed off as truth,and my last podcast I recently
released with Whitney Lowe hecalled it the lineage model of
care, which is basically justgets passed on from generation
(47:57):
to generation, and that's thepoint in the current oral
history, right?
It's based on kind of thisoutdated bio-mechanical,
biomedical way of looking fordysfunctions and anatomical
differences and fixing them, andthat's how most of the
curriculums are done out there.
Now, the problem that we have,though, is that, so, even in BC
(48:21):
and in the regulated provinces,the college is the one that
examines based on the curriculum, but the problem is, the
curriculum sucks.
For the most part it's not verygood.
The inter-jurisdictionalcompetency documents very
outdated.
There's some good stuff inthere.
There's things in there whichgets interpreted to being how a
(48:41):
school wants to interpret thatinformation and then they teach
based on that Right.
Michelle (48:46):
Because if anyone, you guys might, be familiar.
Eric (48:48):
Some of you listeners might be familiar with the
competency document.
Michelle (48:52):
It's quite You're talking about like the thumb
track.
Yeah, yeah, it's quite You'refamiliar with it.
Eric (48:58):
Yeah, it's quite vague, right in some of the stuff.
And like it says things in itlike RMTs must learn how to do a
postural assessment, but itdoesn't tell you whether, like
what the point of it is.
It doesn't tell you whetherthere's validity to it.
There's no evidence in it,right?
So it's just like.
So people are like oh well, youknow, when I learned how to do
(49:20):
a postural assessment usingplumb lines, you know 20 years,
I'm going to teach people how todo that now, even though also
in that same document it saysyou know, a massage therapist
must read current research andbe evidence-based.
Those two things contradicteach other.
So if you're going to beevidence-based, you're going to
realize that doing that staticpostural assessment has no
evidence to it.
Michelle (49:42):
Well, exactly right, and that's.
That was the conundrum I gotinto when I was teaching here a
couple of years ago.
It was like teaching in anassessments class and I'm like I
have to teach you assessmentsbecause it's on the curriculum,
but we know the validity ofthese assessments is shit.
So, and how many of you aregoing to hang a plumb line in
your clinic room before youassess somebody?
Eric (50:04):
Zero, right, it doesn't happen, but it's how the
curriculum is often taught,anyway.
So then and then.
So the schools teach this stuffand then the Our regulatory
college examines based on whatthese nine or 10 schools that
have NBC are examining.
Same thing happens in Ontario,right, because the schools teach
to pass a board exam.
It doesn't mean that the boardexam is a valid I'm going to
(50:28):
call it defensible document withevidence.
It's a representation of thestudents who are being taught.
The government, the Ministry ofHealth or the Ministry of
Advanced Education from myexperiences with our college and
with our association here, isthey.
The government doesn't care.
Yeah, right, they're just likeyou said, michelle, I loved how
you said that but they're justmaking sure that it ticks these
(50:50):
boxes to be an exam, and so thequality of what the students are
taught needs to change.
But then the schools then needto go to the college, and maybe
it's going to be easier for youguys in Saskatchewan, with less
people, I don't know, and lessschools, but they have to go to
the.
They're going to have to go tothe college and get together and
(51:11):
say, hey, this is what we'reteaching.
But when you have nine or 10different schools all teaching
different stuff.
Or you know, like how are theygoing to agree?
Like look at how difficult itwas for you guys to get three
associations together to movetowards regulation and having a
conversation, can you imagine melike getting all these
different private schoolstogether to talk about let's
(51:33):
come up with a curriculum that'sevidence-based, that's within
our scope of practice, and let'sall work together to build this
?
And there's no way it's goingto happen.
No, unless there's an externalpressure on them.
And I personally I would liketo think that external pressure
would be a college, but I don'tthink the college.
That's not their mandate.
Monty (51:53):
No, I don't think they'll do it, because you're not going
to take away from a privateenterprise and what they're
teaching and their proprietarystuff, so to speak, what they're
selling, that makes them unique.
It'd be very difficult, I think.
Eric (52:08):
Oh yeah, and I just, I mean, I talk about this and
complain about this all the time.
Maybe somebody will listen andtake charge of doing this.
But you guys, I mean, I'veexpressed great points from your
perspective too, but the boardexam and the licensing and the
one question that you hadsubmitted to me before Michelle,
(52:28):
to talk about was like why havea board exam and how do we
ensure it's actually relevant?
Michelle (52:35):
Yeah.
Monty (52:36):
I mean I think you have experience with this, because
Like you mean currently withM-tas or with a college.
Michelle (52:47):
Well, I think I mean.
My answer to all of this islike the three of us just need
to create one master's schoolthat everyone across Canada
attends, and then we know it'srelevant and up to date and
people are doing the right thing.
So I don't know if you guyshave this board exam, but let's
face it, we're too busy playingsoccer and drinking Starbucks
and enjoying our own lives to dothat.
So, at the end of the day,right, why have a board exam?
(53:08):
And is it relevant if we don'thave the quality of education
being presented as it relates tothat inter-jurisdictional
practice document that says youknow we're doing evidence-based
massage therapy, you know?
Monty (53:32):
that's a great question.
I mean, I still I guess I stilllook at it as you know.
On one hand, you're 100% rightabout, okay, what are the
schools teaching?
Can we control that?
Right now, no, is itevidence-based, or
evidence-informed at least?
(53:52):
Okay, is it relevant?
I still think we need to have,until we get that college set up
and legisl Sorry, regulated,because we are legislated.
I still think we need to havean MQE exam because I still
think that it holds up theintegrity of massage therapists,
in Saskatchewan at least.
(54:13):
I mean, I look at every otherhealthcare professional in terms
of physios or chiro's, they allhave a.
I don't even know if they havea provincial exam anymore.
They have a national exam.
But if we're unregulated, Ithink it still sets us apart and
says, hey, we're not going totake what the schools have
(54:33):
taught you.
And yes, maybe the exam isoutdated, even though we thought
it was updated because we'veworked with regulated provinces
on it.
I still think it's a necessarycomponent until we get that
legislation.
Michelle (54:46):
Yeah Well, or would you agree to necessary component
, 100% necessary once thelegislation comes through and
that becomes part of thecollege's mandate?
Because, again, currently Idon't think the public knows or
cares if somebody is NHPC or MTAS or some older.
Right now I think they, I valuefor M TAS that having that exam
(55:13):
is important for them as anassociation and I respect that.
But again, until the publicunderstands when, why it's
important, what does it matter?
And I think that's where Ithink having the college is
going to take that up that notch, where the public will then
(55:34):
understand the valve, theimportance of it.
Right now the only reason thepublic cares is if they're being
, is if they're workerscompensation or SGI, because M
TAS therapists are the onlytherapists who have billable
rights to direct bill WCB or SGIclaims, and that's the only
(55:54):
reason the public quote on airquotes would care is if I was in
a car accident and my Cairosays I need massage.
So they're going to refer me toan M TAS therapist because they
can direct bill WCB and SGI,right.
And that's just from myexperience, because if you look
at statistically speaking and Iwas the nerd who did this,
(56:16):
because that's who I am.
I actually kind of collaboratedwith NHPC to say like I've
talked to a couple clinics inthe city who are physio Cairo
clinics and I've investigatedwhat percent of their billables
are actually those third partyinsurers like workers comp and
SGI, because there was there wasa significant bias in
(56:40):
advertising for massagetherapists that it always said M
TAS therapists, m TAStherapists, and when they
started investigating theiractual clinic income, like maybe
two to 5% of their income wasfrom those types of clients and
the rest were all privateinsurance right and coverage or
(57:01):
out of pocket payments.
So my my goal was to educatethe other community of the
carers and the physios to saylike there's other massage
therapists out here, other thanM TAS ones too, who are just as
competent to work at your clinic.
They may not be able to directbill to WCB and SGI but as a
business perspective that's onlythis tiny little part of your
(57:23):
business income.
So why are you limiting yourscope of potential massage
therapists in your clinic?
So thanks to me, I guess NHPChas been doing a campaign for
the last couple of years out toprivate practices and clinics
saying, hey, we're an HPC and wehave massage therapists and
we're great practitioners too,and this is this is what you
(57:45):
know they can bring to yourclinic and you know, when you
advertise for massage therapists, don't be so biased and saying
you want M TAS.
Only make sure that youunderstand that you know there's
other streams of income otherthan this right and I think from
my experience working withthese other colleagues, the
(58:06):
carers and physios, that's theirperception too is that the only
benefits and M TAS massagetherapist is the billables and
not necessarily the qualitycontrol from the board exam.
But I don't think I don't.
I don't perceive that anyonehas had those conversations with
other health care practitionersand I think there's a
(58:28):
misperception out there thatit's more about the quality of
care versus actually it's justbecause they're more accessible
to bill to those two insurancecompanies.
Monty (58:43):
Yeah, I mean I can't, I can't disagree with what you've
said whatsoever.
I think it's just like I said.
I think I've just known the,the hard work I feel that we've
put in, right from 9690 foot 96,all the way through, or at
(59:05):
least what I've done, and I justI guess I stand behind it, I
guess I believe in it.
It's one of those, it's one ofthose things to that you talk
about.
It's just like what, I guess.
What do you believe and why doyou believe it?
Okay, well, are ourcompetencies any different?
I would suggest that you have afew more competencies in your
tool bag than I do, based onyour kin degree and your rehab
(59:28):
stuff that you've done and it'sbeen amazing.
I mean something you gotoutside of scope of massage
therapy practice.
But I'm, I guess, jumping rightnow.
I'm happy that you're that theNHPC is finally starting to
advertise.
Mtas has been doing it for yearsand I know lots of people are
like I can't believe mtas isdoing that.
They're making us sound bad.
(59:49):
I don't know if that was.
I guess that's perception I was.
I've always been proud to bemtas and that my associations
out there advocating for thepublic, or at least what we
think we're advocating for andbringing a presence and bringing
a presence to, you know,massage therapy or I guess this
(01:00:10):
in this case it could be theassociation with mtas members
and I haven't really heard any m, nhpc or some other stuff being
out there.
But if they're starting to, Ithink that's that's absolutely
great, that your associationstarting to publicly advocate
more.
Michelle (01:00:24):
Yeah, I'm blowing it into and again looking back to
this podcast about how would theregulation impact RMT's.
I think I've said this to youbefore, marty, as well as
anything that's out.
There should be a boat massagetherapist as a profession period
and not a boat association, aBC or D right.
(01:00:48):
And so we do.
We do it for the love of ourprofession, not for the.
I mean, we can love and beproud of our association,
absolutely.
But when you peel back thoselayers, you and I can have these
conversations very respectfullyand very humbly, because you
and I both love being massagetherapists, period massage
(01:01:09):
therapists, and it doesn'tmatter what association we
belong to or what pastbackground we have.
What matters is we love what wedo and as a profession, we want
to see this profession beelevated.
So the regulation is also goingto my opinion and I hope it does
eliminate this great dividebetween a, b and C association
(01:01:33):
so that we can all still be veryproud of being massage
therapists and still feelconnected to our association,
because it does a hell of agreat role of representing
massage therapy as a whole andnot just its own slogan and
tuning its own horn for its ownassociation right.
(01:01:54):
And who knows, maybe once thecolleges is here and we're going
to see a great shift from allthe members of NHPC and some
more to move into mtas, becauseit'll be interesting to see how
those associations and they mayor may not crumble with this
college.
And I think the college isgoing to create that mandate of
(01:02:16):
neutrality right, and it's goingto say you can't advertise this
association or that massagetherapist with a priority or
with a bias over another,another massage therapist or
another association.
So it creates equality, forwhich we'll hopefully harmonize
(01:02:36):
all the professionals in ourprovince and and break down
those invisible walls that we'veall put up around ourselves and
really help us appreciate eachother for the fact that we're
all a human and be.
We're all massage therapistswho love our profession.
Eric (01:02:54):
I love that, michelle.
Yeah, well said, you're veryquotable, michelle.
I love it.
Thanks.
One thing I just wanted to sayto just kind of as we wrap up
here a little bit, is that, youknow, the way I see it from kind
of an outside observer is thatall the different associations
creates an us versus them 100%.
(01:03:15):
Or we have this or, as inMonte's case with is some of the
problems with being in theCSMTA is you have that regulated
versus unregulated, thisconstant us versus them, which
is, like you said, it puts up,puts up barriers, like these
artificial barriers, rather thanwhat we're looking for is we're
all professionals, we're allmassage therapists, we all want
(01:03:36):
what's best for our clients, ourpatients, the people that come
to see us, and we want what'sbest for for the public as well
as what's best for theprofession.
And when you've got thesedifferent associations kind of
trying to vie for control andpower, I think it negatively
impacts the profession in ways,in bigger ways than probably
(01:04:00):
people want.
A lot of people maybe don'twant to admit, but that's what I
would see, because if you'relooking, if you're moving
towards regulation and I thinkthe regulation is where we
should all be like theprofession should be regulated
in every province.
We should have a nationalstandard or national exam that
is like the same and thereshould be a curriculum that is
pretty much the same, you know,and so that we should have a
(01:04:23):
licensing exam of some kind andhopefully it's evidence based
and hopefully it's better thanit has been.
But we do.
We do need that regulatoryprocess and you know we need the
associations to stop fightingwith each other or like trying
to vie for power, because thatthat us versus them is is not
helping.
Monty (01:04:44):
I don't think no, and that's great.
That's why we're all workingtogether now and hopefully
getting that out of our minds atleast.
We're all connected togethernow, like Michelle said, and
will truly be all connected onceregulation comes in.
So I wouldn't be still doingmassage therapy after 28 years
on this body if I didn't lovewhat I'm doing.
Eric (01:05:09):
I appreciate.
I think we should.
I.
We had a whole bunch of talkingpoints.
I think we've only addressedlike a fifth of them.
I think we should.
We should have you guys back onand do a part two, if you're up
for that, and we can kind ofexpand on this, maybe a little
bit more talk about somethingelse.
I've really enjoyed, enjoyedthis, enjoy listening to you
guys talk.
I've learned a lot from you.
(01:05:30):
Know your, your experiences, soso thanks for sharing those
with with me and with theaudience.
I appreciate a lot.
Monty (01:05:36):
Welcome.
Happy for having you me on.
Eric (01:05:39):
Yeah, thanks.
Monday is good to meet you, andthanks again, michelle.
Michelle (01:05:43):
Oh, it was a pleasure.
Thanks for having me again.
Look forward to part two andthree, and four probably.
Eric (01:05:51):
Thank you for listening to my podcast.
Please subscribe so you can benotified of all future episodes.
Purpose versus is now availableto watch on YouTube, so if you
enjoyed this episode, pleaselike, subscribe and share to
your favorite social mediaplatforms.
If you'd like to connect withme, I can be reached to my
website, eric Purviscom, or sendme a DM through either Facebook
or Instagram at Eric Purvis RMT.
Hello and welcome to the Purves Versus Podcast.
My name is Eric Purves.
I'm an RMT course creator,continuing education provider
and advocate for evidence-basedmassage therapy.
This episode features MichelleSmith and Monty Churchman, who
are massage therapists based inSaskatchewan.
We begin our conversationtalking about sport massage and
then the focus of our discussionmoves to the pros and cons of
(00:30):
working in an unregulatedprovince.
Thank you for being here andenjoy this episode.
Hello everybody, and thanks forlistening to another episode of
Purvis Versus.
Today we've got two wonderfulguests from Saskatchewan.
We've got Michelle Smith, who'sback for her second episode,
and we welcome Monty Churchman.
So thanks for you guys forbeing here today.
Just before we get started intoour conversation today, which
(00:54):
is going to hopefully focus onmassage therapy regulation and
what it's going to be like foryou, we're going to hear your
perspective on what it's likeworking in an unregulated
province like Saskatchewan.
I want you guys just tointroduce yourself, so go ahead,
michelle.
Michelle (01:10):
Thanks, eric.
My name is Michelle Smith, asEric has mentioned, and I'm a
registered massage therapisthere in Saskatchewan, working
out of Saskatoon.
Yeah, I've been practicingsince 2014.
Also a kinesiologist andexercise physiologist by
profession originally, and thenI switched into the career of
(01:31):
massage therapy after about 15years doing my kinesiology
profession.
Eric (01:39):
Wonderful, and Monty, just tell us a little bit about you.
Monty (01:41):
All right, monty Churchman, I'm from Saskatoon,
saskatchewan.
I started my first practice inOctober of 1996.
So I'm still practicing.
That's 27 years later, if I dothe math.
I've spent pretty much myentire career practicing in
Saskatoon, a little bit rurallyas well.
But I am heavily involved insport massage and I also belong
(02:04):
to the Canadian Sport MassageTherapist Association, so we're
a national organization thatalso practices the effective use
of sport massage therapy forathletes, especially at the COC
and IOC level.
Wonderful.
Eric (02:23):
So with the CSMTA stuff do you have the full certification
?
Monty (02:30):
Yeah, I do.
Through the CSMTA have the fullcertification, so I'm
considered a sport fellow.
Eric (02:34):
Nice, nice.
Have you had a chance to go tolike Olympic Games or Trials or
Commonwealth or any of thatstuff that's what I'm building
for.
Monty (02:43):
actually, I was just at the Commonwealth Games last year
working for Team Canada, so Igot a chance to work with a
variety of athletes, which wasan amazing experience.
Prior to that, for the lastseven years, I've been part of
the Para Swim Canada group, soI've been working with them
since 2015.
Eric (03:04):
Lovely.
It's exciting.
When I first started practicingI guess 17 years ago now I was
heavily involved at the CSMTAand I did the.
I never did the finalcertification because the
Olympics came to Vancouver atthat time and I was doing all my
certification looking forwardto like I'm going to do it, I'm
(03:25):
going to work at the Olympics,and they didn't actually take
anybody like hardly anyone thatwas actually part of the CSMTA.
They just took their favoritepeople or just random.
It was who you knew.
Monty (03:37):
So as far as your comment there, eric, I believe that
wouldn't have been the CSMTA,that was most likely the Van Ock
Organizing Committee that allkind of went to hell in a
handbag.
Eric (03:49):
Yes, and I should be.
Yeah, thanks for clarifying.
I didn't mean to throw theCSMTA under the bus there.
It was the Van Ock OrganizingCommittee that they chose their
therapists from the people thatwere organizing.
That kind of took who theywanted.
But it was unfortunate becausethe impression I had been made
to believe and from the people Iknew in the CSMTA for my three
(04:10):
or four years involved with them, was that the organizing
committees or Sport Canada orwhoever would go to them to
choose their therapists and thatin this case it didn't happen.
I live in BC.
At the time, actually, my dadhad a condo right in downtown
Vancouver I could have stayed at.
So it was like perfect for meto go and I didn't get the
opportunity.
So I kind of it kind of left abad taste in my mouth and I just
(04:32):
said, ah, you know what, that's, okay, I'll.
I had young kids at the timeand I was like this is a lot of
work anyway, so I just left ityeah well.
Monty (04:42):
Well, further to that, this might be a good time to
talk about it because this willtie into our conversation, since
we're on the topic of sport.
So the problem, one of theissues that I've had with living
in an unregulated province isthe fact that there's not that
same labor mobility, especiallyin the sporting world.
So as a CSMTA and we were calledsport massage therapists back
(05:04):
then, but recently, in the lasttwo and a half years, we've had
to change that designationbecause registered massage
therapist was a protected titleand we couldn't use sport
massage therapists.
So we recently had to changethat to sport fellow instead of
certified sport massagetherapist.
So that that's a whole can ofworms we could get into.
But this also affected it interms of me or any other
(05:28):
unregulated province working inanother regulated province for
this type of games.
So I applied, but they wouldn'ttake me because insurance
wouldn't cover me in a regulatedprovince.
Different story if I was with aspecific team.
If I was actually with the teamCanada the alpine skiing, the
(05:49):
team would have covered me in BCto work with them, but I
couldn't go as a registeredmassage therapist or as a sport
therapist and work in anunregulated province because of
insurance issues.
Eric (06:00):
That's so crazy to me.
Even though your education andyour experience could be more or
the same, or more, just becauseof being from Saskatchewan,
you're denied that opportunity.
Monty (06:15):
Yep, 100% and back then.
Keep in mind, in 2010, bc stillhad a 3300 hour requirement,
which they've since dropped, sowe weren't considered as peers
or, I guess, as equals in theregulated provinces.
Eric (06:28):
Wow, and that's that whole hour thing too here.
So, being in BC myself, it wasone of those things that we were
kind of told like you're thebest you know, you've had more
education anyway.
So as you're in school it'skind of like you're kind of
inundated with like how muchbetter your education is, and so
(06:49):
you kind of grow up and airquotes.
We all kind of grow up as atherapist thinking that our
education is great becausethat's what we're told and we're
made to believe.
But you know, in reality it's.
You know, if you, just becauseyou have more hours doesn't mean
is better education, and that'sthe and that's a big issue is I
think more education is better,like more education is better
(07:10):
than less education.
But the hour component to,particularly when a lot of it
was really not evidence-basedstuff, it was just filler, I
know I don't think it makes youa better therapist.
And then my experience teachingand and meeting therapists from
across Canada doesn't matterwhere you're from.
You can be from the territories, you'd be from BC, you can be
(07:30):
from anywhere in between, allthe way to Newfoundland, nova
Scotia, and there's fantastictherapists everywhere.
They have different numbers ofhours.
It's really comes down, I thinkto the individual, not the the
hours of learning that you get.
Monty (07:44):
That's my experience and sorry, I should let Michelle get
in here at some point but andit's the quality of the hours
that you're receiving, right.
So, like you alluded to earlier,is it filler, is it quality
hours that you're getting?
The?
The one exception that we'vehad and this has been a
difficult thing and I don't wantto get too much into this but
(08:06):
to take sport therapists fromQuebec.
They're the only province thatdoesn't have, I mean, they have
an $1100 program, I believe, andyou can build your way up, but
their minimum to practice as amassive therapeutic is $400.
So for us to take them on,because our basic requirement in
the CSMTA is that you have$2,200 of education and be a
(08:30):
member in good standing withyour provincial association so
we've had to really work andfinesse how we can get the
Quebec therapists to have theirhours up or their quality of
education up to join the CSMTA.
And and again, that's a wholeother can of worms.
We're not here to discuss themin terms of general regulation,
(08:51):
but that's just as an aside wow,that's okay, it's great.
Eric (08:54):
I like some.
I like a lot how theseconversations sometimes just
kind of roll with the punches,so to speak, go from one way to
the other.
But let's talk, let's talkabout the, let's talk about
regulation, because that waskind of the the key thing, and
so this, I think this does playinto it, which is which is great
.
So thanks for making thosepoints, monti.
But you know, you guys, being aSaskatchewan, let's let's just
throw the big question out thereare you pro regulation?
Michelle (09:17):
maybe we'll start with you, michelle, because we
haven't heard from you yet yeah,perfect in my pro regulation,
absolutely, and I'm proregulation for I mean what I
consider is the right reasons.
It's for the, for our publicsafety and for the reputation of
massage therapists in generalas a health profession.
(09:38):
So, yes, I am pro regulation inSaskatchewan what about you,
monti?
Monty (09:45):
100%, absolutely pro regulation, for sure that's an
easy, simple answer.
Eric (09:53):
What do you guys think the barrier is to regulation, like,
why is the Saskatchewan notregulated?
Monty (10:01):
well, we are legislated, now we are legislated, but the
transition committee between thethree associations have to work
to set up the college properlybefore we can actually get the
proclamation day.
For yes, we're regulated, sowe're.
We're half to three quarters ofthe way there, I guess, if you
(10:22):
will, and you guys have like a.
Eric (10:26):
Is there a date or a timeline where you're where they
expect?
You guys will have that to gothrough.
Michelle (10:31):
I mean initially the timeline was going to take five
years from when the threeorganizations came together.
However, covid came and wentand kind of prolonged that and I
know just from my short-termexperience being part of that
(10:53):
committee that was sort of thegoal.
But then government processtakes long period, no matter
what you're doing, and otherpriorities will come across the
desk.
So I think we can, probably I'm.
I mean, I'd be happy if we cansee that within the five years,
but I'm realistic and sayingmaybe seven Monti.
(11:15):
What do you think?
Monty (11:18):
well, I'm ever the optimist.
I don't know if it's the timeor place to give my history, but
I have literally been waitingfor 27 years, since I was told
we were going to be regulated.
And I've been fighting alongwith the or not fighting, but
working towards regulation eversince 1996.
(11:39):
So to see it actually get tothis stage it's like okay, well,
don't get the hopes up too much, but I would like to think we
would have it done in the nextthree years to finally get our
stuff together and have allthree associations and the
transition committee agree on aproper entrance exam, if you
(12:01):
will, or a proper board exam, ifyou will.
So I'm hopeful that they canwork together and get that done
in the next three years.
Eric (12:09):
I have something I'd like you guys to clarify too, just
because I would imagine mostpeople don't really know much
about it.
You have three differentassociations, so there's m tasks
, there's NHPC and what's thethird?
Simota, simota or TTA, yeah,yeah, okay yeah, and so NHPC and
Simota are not big and BC atall.
(12:29):
We only really have oneassociation, so you guys have
three.
Now all three of theseassociations need to come
together to kind of agree towork towards regulation, was
there?
How has that process been?
Because, if I remembercorrectly from talking to you
guys off air, you guys are, butyou, michelle and Monty are in
different associations.
(12:50):
Is that correct?
Michelle (12:51):
Yeah, yeah, that's correct all right.
Eric (12:53):
So, michelle, why don't you go first and then?
And, monty, what associationare you part?
Michelle (12:58):
of.
So I'm part of NHPC and Montyand I had a really great
conversation off air to preparefor this, and I learned a huge
volume of information about thepath to regulation prior to 2015
(13:19):
that Monty shared with me, andit's only been since about 2015
that NHPC has been quote-unquoteat the table, and that was
based on the ministry saying,okay, we need to have all of
these associations come together, agree on the process in order
(13:40):
to go forward again, go forwardagain, because there's more
backstabbing history that I wasnot aware about.
So, yeah, I mean, it's beeneight years now for NHPC working
collaboratively with the othertwo associations to get things
to the point where they aretoday.
Eric (14:04):
And I imagine that's probably.
Each association has their ownagenda of what they how they
want things to look.
Is that correct?
Michelle (14:11):
Yeah, that's correct.
I think one of the significantchallenges is that the two of
the of the three associations donot have what they call a board
exam to join their association.
Their requirements to be partof the association is being, you
know, a graduate of a 2200 hourmassage therapy program, and
(14:35):
then your English languagecompetency as well, and then
your first ACPR and criminalbackground record check.
So those are the onlyrequirements needed for the for
two of the three associations,and then Monte can speak to this
.
But the third association andpass actually has what they call
a board exam.
And then the third associationhas what they call their board
(14:58):
exam.
In order to be a member, theyhave to pass the board exam.
And so, from my experience, thethe biggest hurdle has been
agreeing upon whether or notcurrent massage therapists can
be grandfathered into thecollege, and that's a point of
contention I know two of thethree associations agreed that,
(15:22):
yes, the current massagetherapist should be
grandfathered in without havingto challenge a board exam, and
that's been rectified andsettled and everything is going
forward now.
And then the other contentionwas okay, any new graduates,
once the colleges struck, anynew graduates entering into the
(15:44):
college, must write a an exam.
But what does that exam looklike and what are we basing it
off?
So that those are the been theprimary sticking point.
Fhen also, what a lot oftherapists don't know is like
financially to start an actualphysical college takes a lot of
(16:05):
money and and nobody knows yetwhere this magic money is going
to come from to create an actualcollege.
So who's giving?
Who's giving what to to haveyou know you need your college
registrar, you need college, youknow other employees to start
the process and you can't just,you can't just weigh your hat on
(16:31):
the massage therapist payingtheir college dues or college
fees to fund this college.
So I think that's also a bigquestion mark that's up in the
air right now is where's themoney coming from to actually
then see this go forward?
Once the minute free says yay,okay, we've passed this, but
then we still need X amount ofmillions of dollars, right, so
(16:54):
yeah, it's not a cheap process,for sure.
Eric (16:59):
Maybe we'll we can talk a bit more about that in a minute.
I just want to, so I want toyour mtas, or so is mtas the
largest association inSaskatchewan.
Monty (17:09):
Well, now are you talking in terms of members or in terms
of being known, I suppose?
Eric (17:16):
Let's go members.
How many members does mtas havelike compared to the other ones
?
Monty (17:21):
Oh boy, that's a great question.
I should have had those facts.
I believe we're around 850members somewhere in that
neighborhood.
But talking with Michelle shehad mentioned to me that they
have.
They have more than that withinHPC for massage therapists,
which I was kind of unaware of.
I still thought we were thelargest association in
(17:41):
Saskatchewan.
So the numbers are fairlycomparable, fairly even, I
suppose.
So going back into my history ofmtas, when I joined there was
no mtas, so I'll give you therecollection as far back as I
can go.
So I started my schooling inJanuary of 1995.
And there was a class justbefore me six months prior.
(18:05):
So that would have been in Juneof 94.
And that was the year that itbecame mandatory to take a two
year 2200 hour program inSaskatchewan.
Prior to that it was 1100 hours.
So we were one of the groupahead of me and myself were the
first ones to take the 2200 hourprogram.
Now that's Saskatoon.
There's a couple of otherschools in Regina so I can't
(18:26):
speak to them.
I believe they probably wouldhave followed suit as well.
So back then there were threeassociations the SMTA, the
Saskatchewan Massage TherapistAssociation, the LCSP, fis,
which is out of England, and theAMTWP, the associate.
(18:47):
Sorry, hang on.
What did I say?
Now I'm getting confused.
Oh sorry, the PSRMT, theProvincial Society of Remedial
Massage Therapists.
So this is the one that Ijoined because legally you could
still work after one year.
So the requirement was is thatyou could join an association
(19:10):
and work after year one, but youhad to be enrolled in year two
to take that 2200 hours.
So that's what I did.
That's why people say well, howdid you start practicing in
October of 96 if you weren'tdone school?
That is how I came to startpracticing early.
So back then there was no boardexam, except for with with the
SMTA.
You had to write a board exam.
(19:31):
So, interestingly enough, Istepped up to be on the PSRMT's
executive committee because Icould be and a lot of people
were going.
Well, how can you be on theexecutive if you've only got one
year in?
You're going back to school andI said, hey, far be it from me
to want to step on toes, but Ihave the same education as you
do right now 1100 hours.
I don't see anybody elsestepping up to want to be a part
(19:54):
of your executive committee.
If you would like to, please gofor it because I've got a
second year of school to go and,like they usually do, nobody
stepped up.
So you're fine, you go ahead tokeep doing it.
So the goal back then in thatnext year of school, as I was on
the executive committee or amember at large, I guess I was
(20:14):
called was how can we getamalgamation?
We want to be regulated.
Back then in 95 the governmentsaid, hey, you three
associations get your shittogether, figure it out, because
we're not going to put anybodyat work, so get it done.
So all three associations workthat year quite a bit to
(20:35):
amalgamate and they amalgamatedin I believe it was December of
1996.
So they did the process ofamalgamation in 96.
And I can't say this for certain, but the very first board exam
that came out from M TAS, whichwas formed in 9596, we had to
(20:58):
take that first board exam.
So I believe we were the firstones that passed an MQE in
Saskatchewan to practice.
So there's the history thatMichelle didn't know, for when
we talked, and I think it wasnot even a year later, there
were some people that wereunhappy with the board exam
process again and they decidedto splinter off all of a sudden
(21:19):
again.
And that's when the AMTWP, theAssociation of Holistic Massage
Therapist and Practitioners,came in.
So all of a sudden we had twoassociations again.
We went, well, this isdefeating the purpose of what we
were just trying to do, and itsort of splintered off from
there again in terms of anotherassociation coming in.
(21:40):
And then I think AMTWP ended uparound 1992 is when they were
formed, and I think they wereout of Alberta, so they ended up
finding their way intoSaskatchewan and then they
created another group there.
Eric (21:59):
It's amazing to me how many different associations you
guys have had in a smallprovince in a short period of
time.
There's been numerous ones,have just kind of come and gone.
Monty (22:09):
Yeah.
So I mean you cut me offwhenever you want if you've got
side questions.
But that's the history of ourinitial amalgamation in
Saskatchewan and how, all of asudden, it kind of descended
because one set of people didn'tlike that, they didn't pass the
board exams or they didn't likethe rules.
So they thought, well, we'renot going to stop from
(22:29):
practicing, you can't put us outof work, so we'll go to another
association.
And so we were kind of rightback at square one.
But MTAAS had a lot of tractionearly on and put in a lot of the
time and work to get things upand running.
And that's where I think thedivide always was between MTAAS
members.
And then when NHPC came in andthe thought process was okay,
(22:54):
well, what are you doing?
You're not wanting to worktowards regulation, this is what
we've been pushing for and thisis what we need.
And even while similar wasn'there, it was the RMTA, I think,
the Registered Massage TherapistAssociation of Alberta, which I
believe turned into similarafterwards.
So that's some of thebackground there on that process
(23:14):
and as well, I've been part ofthe Education Committee way back
when and we took our exam and Ithink this is one of the things
that we felt set us apart wasthe fact that we weren't just
taking the school's word for itthat the students had passed
their $2,200 exam.
There was an independent examwhich we thought was unbiased
(23:36):
and an arbitrary exam, if I usethe right word there, that we
had come together to form sothat students coming out would
have to challenge a board examprovincially to make us kind of
on par with a lot of otherhealthcare professions.
I mean, I think I believe everyother healthcare profession has
(23:58):
a national exam that they haveto pass, or a provincial exam.
So why wouldn't we want one?
Why would we just want to takethe school's words coming out
saying, oh, they're fine,they're competent?
That's the very lay persons wayof describing it.
I don't know if you want to addanything there, michelle, to
that, or if you want me tocontinue.
Michelle (24:18):
No, I think it sounds great.
I think it's a good summary ofthe history and where you're at
today.
This is just my question and afood for thought.
I would like to question theother associations as to why
they do not have that competencyexam Right, just as a thought.
(24:45):
But that's for a podcast foranother day and maybe some other
guests for you, eric, to comeon as well too.
Monty (24:52):
And I do wonder, michelle , because M-TAS is dedicated
only to Saskatchewan?
Yeah, nhpc is.
Michelle (25:01):
Western.
Well, it's Canadian-wide right.
I mean, there's thousands andthousands of members in NHPC
NHPC represented but most ofthem are represented in the
unregulated provinces.
You've got Alberta,saskatchewan, manitoba, and I
know they had some members downeast as well too.
(25:22):
So the shift for them also isgoing to come once these other
provinces become regulated aswell.
Eric (25:33):
Yeah, it only makes sense.
Sorry, monty, you didn't meanto drop, you just said the
comment you said there, michelle, about the board exams.
And why would an associationnot want a board exam?
And the way I look at that andthis is just my biased response
that is that the associationsdon't really care about the
quality of the people that theyare regulating per se, because
(25:57):
it's a business, right.
They want many members in orderto survive as a business.
So putting a board exam inplace if not mandated, to me
would just be a barrier tomembership.
So it comes down to thetherapist.
Is the therapist?
Do they want to be a healthcareprofessional?
Yeah, is that their primaryfocus?
(26:20):
I'm not saying that people thatare part of NHPC or SMOTA aren't
.
I'm saying that, if you do, youwant to take the easy road or
you want to take the hard road.
Some people would be like, well, I want to prove to myself that
I can pass this board exam, soI want to view myself as being
at a higher level, maybe ofcompetency or education.
(26:40):
Maybe that person is going togo towards M-TAS because there's
this perception for them, Idon't know.
Versus the other ones, maybepeople are like, well, I know
I'm good, I don't need to takethis unnecessary cost of doing a
board exam, so I can stillpractice and be my member of
these associations, and I wouldassume that that is probably the
(27:02):
rationale for me associationsfor doing it that way.
I could totally be wrong andI'd be happy to be wrong.
Monty (27:08):
Well, question for you If you were to come out to
Saskatchewan right now, being ina regulated province, which
association would you join, andwhy?
Eric (27:18):
Well, I would join M-TAS 100% because it's just
Saskatchewan and that board examis that perceived extra
requirement to be there.
Also, I know the people atM-TAS, I know Lori and I know
Jane and I've known.
(27:39):
Danelda for a long time, soI've got connections there.
The only person I've ever knownas part of the HPC is Michelle,
and not that that is a barrierto knowing only one person, but
I think just the standards thatI know M-TAS better, I know what
they represent better.
Michelle (28:01):
But I think so.
If we talk about standards,though, like, okay, here's my
example.
Because when, when I wastalking to Monty about why I
chose NHPC is my association.
I took my schooling in Alberta.
I traveled out because andagain, this is my bias when I
(28:23):
reviewed the curriculum of theSaskatchewan schools in 2013,
2014, and saw that all theschools were still teaching
hydrotherapy spa type and again,no disrespect to spa services,
but they were, in theircurriculum had non evidence
based material.
(28:45):
I was like and again, I'm adifferent cat because of my
prior university background, butI was like, I'm not wasting my
time on that, I want to get tothe meat and potatoes of massage
.
You know anatomy, physiology,all that wonderful stuff Because
I know what kind ofpractitioner I want to be and I
(29:06):
want to be the practitionerconsidered to be a healthcare
provider.
So when I was going to schoolin Alberta, we actually weren't
even educated on mtas as anassociation, whereas the
Saskatchewan schools, mtasalways goes in and talks to
their students about like themas an association and things
like that.
So it wasn't even wasn't even aquestion for me.
(29:31):
It was like, oh, do I go withsome motor NHPC?
And at that time, some motor wasjust newly reformed and then it
was like, well, I knew of mtasand I knew they had a board exam
, but I would in my mind I meanit was my second career choice
down the road and I'm like I'vealready finished a degree, I've
(29:54):
already written a nationalcompetency exam for my exercise
physiology credentialing to helpI'm going to write another
board exam just to say I knowwhat I'm doing because I have
experience and double theeducation and so my, my choice
when going with with NHPC wasbecause it was just easy and I
(30:16):
didn't feel like people aregoing to look at me and say, oh
well, you're not mtas, so you're.
You're not at that level orstandard of practitioner because
you didn't quote unquote writea board exam.
But at the end of the day, thepublic doesn't know the
difference.
I've had treatments from alldifferent kind of therapists
who've been in NHPC or been anmtas and just because someone
(30:38):
writes the board exam doesn'tmake them a better practitioner.
And so I think his qualityassurance is what it is.
Monty (30:47):
And having said that, michelle, I've seen you, you've
treated me, you're actually Itrust you 100% with my care and
I'm not concerned that you'renot part of them tasks
whatsoever, but I think you're abit of an exceptional as well.
Yeah, because you have yourbackground and can.
A lot of people coming in don'thave the previous background
(31:07):
that you have.
So I think this ties in withthe educational standard.
We can touch on this brieflyand maybe come back to it later,
because I got too many hamstersrunning in the in the head
right now.
But the issue I don't think isthe schools like I don't think
NHPC or some other go into theschools and do any talks and
(31:29):
Saskatchewan like they do now.
Michelle (31:32):
Oh, yeah, what I was involved when I was involved
with the school here inSaskatoon.
Yeah, they definitely they didcome in.
Yeah.
Monty (31:42):
But so, speaking to that, mtas has always gone in and to
Eric's earlier comment, I thinkprobably the biggest thing that
I have been the most firm on isthat we have been mtas, in my
opinion, has been the leader intrying to get ready.
We've been trying to getregulation since the get go and
(32:04):
and we talked about this toothere's NDAs with the
association, so they won't talkabout financials or or any of
the other details, and thiscould have been one of the
barriers and less Michelle and Ihad talked, I wouldn't have
known that HPC had come to thetable in 2015.
I wouldn't have known that mtaswas doing the bulk of the work
from 95 to 2015 and and thatcontributing heavily financially
(32:27):
towards lobbying the government, and so now it's been eight
years that HPC has been helping.
So a lot of people have tothink swallow their pride and
all this other stuff and go OK,we're all working together.
Now I use the analogy withMichelle when we were talking
(32:48):
Eric, that I felt like thelittle red him.
I felt like mtas members and uswere doing, so to speak, all the
work and everything, andeverybody didn't want to do the
work.
They just wanted to eat thebread and jump on and share the
look, you know, sharing the inthe fruits or the spoils of the
labor.
And that seemed to be moreevident because we were so close
(33:10):
to regulation in 2015, to thebest of my knowledge, and I
believe that is when HPC said ohno, we need to actually lobby
the government.
And they went to the governmentand said no, no, no, no, no.
You can't just make mtas therePersonally, you have to make it
fair to everybody, and that, Ibelieve, is the timeline of when
they came to the table.
And so a lot of us were like OK,another setback in regulation.
(33:33):
Why is an HPC doing this Now,eight years later?
It makes sense because youdon't want to put anybody who's
got $2,200 or has got theirremedial massage therapy
certificate out of business.
And so I think that oldergeneration, myself included,
have had to come to terms and go.
Because I was asked in a surveyand I said you know, I want to
(33:55):
do what's good for theprofession of massage therapy.
I don't want to do necessarilywhat's best for an association,
because once the college getsset up Eric, you're right, 100
percent the associations will beonly there for membership and
money and doing what they needto to retain members.
Eric (34:12):
It's going to be the college that benefits the most
right For sure, and that's sucha great point is that you know
the associations are there forthe, there to support the
members.
So if you have threeassociations, really they're
going to be there to whetherit's provide courses or advocacy
to the public or whatever tobasically promote their
(34:33):
membership.
And they're a business theyneed to.
They need to attract members,whereas the college doesn't care
about that because everyone'sgoing to have to be a member of
the college and the college is Imean, I'm not sure the dues are
going to be in here in BC.
They're like $600 a year foryour college and then your
association dues are optional,but those can be another $600 to
$700 as well If you want to bepart of that.
(34:55):
Even if you want to just getinsurance, it's still not a
couple of dollars a month orsorry, not a month a year just
for like liability andoutpractice.
So to I don't know what.
What's the cost now to be amember of your guys association?
Because it's going to costpeople more, I imagine.
Monty (35:10):
We're 425 GST included.
Michelle (35:14):
Yeah, we're about there as well too, In that neck
of the woods.
Eric (35:18):
Right, so now add.
So now you're going to have toadd probably another $500 or
$600 on top of that to a collegedo and that's, and that's a,
that's a that's a barrier to topracticing as well, because you
know that's more money out ofyour pocket.
Michelle (35:32):
Or is there a barrier though for, like, do I have to
be part of an association whenI'm in the college?
No, right, I mean the call.
The purpose of a college is forthe public's protection, Right?
The associations advocate forthe massage therapists.
Yeah, and now theseassociations are trying to do
(35:53):
both.
How can you advocate formassage therapists and how can
you protect the public, right?
So once the college comes, aslong as you're a member of the
college in good standing, isthere, is there going to be a
rule that says you have to alsobelong to your provincial or any
massage association?
Monty (36:12):
No, but I believe I believe.
Correct me if I'm wrong but ifyou're part of an association we
would get a lot ofadvertisements about Eric's
courses or other instructorscourses that are coming up.
You get a better insurance ratebecause you get group insurance
rate.
You get different groups.
So there are some pros to stillbeing a part of an association.
Those are only three I canthink of top my head.
Eric (36:37):
Yeah, and it really depends on the numbers in your
association too, and what youknow the board of directors and
executive director, and you knowwhat do the members want, and
BCR association was we got over3,000, 3,500 members in our
association, and there's about50% of it because there's about
7,000 RMTs in BC, but half ofthem are in the association and
(37:01):
they do.
They do a conference every yearand they do advertising for
courses.
They've got like a newsletterthat goes out.
You know they lobby insurancecompanies they work with.
You know ICBC, so ourprovincial auto insurer,
worksafebc, so for workplacelike they do that kind of stuff,
which is great if you know, ifyou benefit from it.
(37:24):
The problem is, though and thisis what you see in BC here and
I'm sure it's in other regularprovinces too is that, because
the association is the oneworking for the profession and
it's a voluntary membership, allpeople that are not paying into
it still get all the benefitsof the work the association does
, and that creates a lot offrustration, from my observation
(37:50):
of conversations I've had withpeople Like do you realize that
you just getting all thesebenefits because of the money
that your colleagues are puttinginto it?
And that's something that maycome up in Saskatchewan once you
guys get that, is the peopledeciding on which association to
(38:11):
go to.
We're just pulling out alltogether and just being like I'm
just going to be a part of thecollege and because I have to
practice, I don't care about theadvertising and stuff.
Monty (38:20):
Yeah, well, and you know another thing with that is so in
the last two years, mtas hasnow waived the examination fee
that we used to charge, becausewe know so it was always a
break-even exam, because I'vebeen one of the provincial board
examiners off and on for 20some years probably, I guess,
(38:43):
and we just had a set of boardexams here a couple of weeks ago
and they're well attended.
And so just to go back to thatand I think this will tie in
nicely with are the schoolsdoing what they're supposed to
do and is the government doingwhat they're supposed to do with
the curriculum and the way it'ssupposed to be?
So we had always been told thatour exam was biased.
(39:04):
It was one way.
And so we worked with theschools.
We went into the schools andsaid, hey, here's your
curriculum.
This is government mandatedcurriculum that you're teaching.
What are you teaching, whatwe're going to be testing on?
Well, what do you think isimportant?
So we talked to all the schools.
We had roundtables back when Iwas more a part of the board.
(39:25):
Back then We'd have roundtablesevery year.
What's updated, what'sdifferent.
We're not going to basicallygive you our exam, but we're
going to tell you what isimportant.
You know that we feel wasimportant to know and so, after
many years of having that sameexam and too much pushback, we
decided okay, we need to go to ageneral competency exam.
(39:47):
So Lori and some of us exact,and the other exact more so than
me, because I wasn't on theexact, I was just a member at
large worked heavily with CMTBCto not replicate but to do a
mock British Columbia exam howcan we best formulate this?
(40:09):
And we went through a ton ofdifferent things to reformat
that exam to make it a generalcompetency exam.
And I remember I was, we werepart of a pilot project.
It was Don Wickstrom back thenthat was heading it up and I
think Cassandra Exner Williamswas our chief examiner.
But we revamped the whole M-TASexam to kind of go with what a
(40:30):
regulated provinces exam wouldlook like.
I believe that was 2000 and2015,.
I think 2016 is when we did therevamp and we met out in Craig
and we had all the Saskatchewanschools come in and we said,
okay, here's what we're thinkinghow an actual exam would go, a
(40:51):
mock competency exam and weasked for their feedback and we
got their feedback and we putthat into the exam, and so
that's what we currently have asour board exam for the last
eight years.
We still get lots of well, wedidn't know you were teaching
that, we didn't know we weredoing that, and it's like we've
gotten your feedback from theschools over the years.
The problem, I believe, lies inthe fact that a lot of the
(41:16):
schools, because they're payingso low, are only having people
that have been out for two orthree years and back then they
had an agreement between all theschools that they would.
If I'm right I hope I am thatno student would instruct for at
least three years.
They would have at least threeyears experience in the field
(41:37):
before coming back to the schooland instruct.
And now some of the schools arecoming back after a year or
they've just graduated and theyhave them teaching.
So that should be a big part onthe college but on the
government to go in and evaluatethe curriculum that they're
actually teaching.
Michelle (41:55):
Actually.
So I'm going to interject,monty, because earlier you had
said when you brought thoseschools together to review the
government mandated curriculum.
There's a little correctionthere for you Government only
approves the curriculum.
So when I had my experienceworking at the school that I was
working at here, in order to beapproved by the Ministry of
(42:19):
Post-Secondary Education andPrivate Vocational Schools here
in Saskatchewan, the school as abusiness, just like your
business, submits a proposal fortheir program and they submit
the school submits thecurriculum that the school wants
to teach and then thegovernment reviews everything
(42:41):
and makes sure it checks offeverything on the assessment
list from the ministry.
And then the ministry says,okay, your business plan or your
school curriculum looks great,but the government doesn't
compare it or doesn't look atwhat are the national standards
for massage therapists.
The government is looking at itfrom a does it meet the number
(43:03):
of hours that the school isadvertising it meets?
Does it meet the educationalcriteria that could make it
eligible for student loans?
So there's nobody at thegovernment saying, oh, yes, this
curriculum checks all the boxesfor massage therapy school.
No, this curriculum checks allthe boxes for a program which
happens to be massage therapy.
(43:23):
And so the government approvesthe school's curriculum that the
school presents to thegovernment.
So it's the schools, as aprivate business, have full
reign to develop whatevercurriculum they want for their
massage therapy program, and aslong as they're following the
(43:43):
same curriculum that wassubmitted to the ministry for
approval, then they're okay.
So it's actually the school'sresponsibility to make sure
they're doing what is just andwhat is what is right in the
eyes of our profession currently, right now, because there's
nobody monitoring the schools,coming in and saying hey wait,
(44:06):
why are you guys teaching how todo a mud wrap in a massage
therapy program?
Where is mud wrap in the in theevidence based efficacy
protocol for massage therapy?
How does that fit in?
Well, we've been teaching thisbecause this is how it's been
taught for the last 25 years.
So I think it's and again, thisis before my time coming into
(44:29):
this, but I think it's wonderfulthat MTAs sat down with all
these schools in 2016.
However, of that, that meetingin 2016, how many of those
school directors or headinstructors are even still
teaching number one and numbertwo?
None of those schools want toshare their curriculum.
It's very hush, hush, right,and so I can guarantee now I
(44:53):
know, I know of one school inthe city who's still teaching
very old, outdated informationto their students, and no one's
policing that for lack of betterwords.
So, yes, the ministry approvesthe curriculum because it said
that this school can get fundingas a private vocational school
and they can give the studentstudent loans.
(45:14):
It checks those boxes, butnobody except for a college will
be actually reviewing thecurriculum, and so I think
that's the benefit too.
When a college comes in is likewhat kind of curriculum are you
guys teaching, right?
Are you guys teaching what'sevidence based and substantial
in today's you know healthcareplatform, or are you just
(45:35):
teaching hocus, pocus let'sthrow some mud wrap on their
feet and call it massage therapy, right?
And so I think We've come backto this.
I think all three of us canagree on this right.
These new grads are only asgood as the school they attend,
and we need to do a better jobof educating potential massage
(45:55):
therapists to really dig deepand look at the school's
curriculum before they shell outtheir $20,000, $30,000, but
also dig deep and ask, well, whois instructing and how long
have they been practicing as amassage therapist?
Right, and then make yourchoice, not because it's in your
city or not, because you can doa hybrid learning model, look
(46:17):
at the curriculum, look at theinstructors and decide from that
in order to make sure you'redoing the right thing.
Right, because nobody else ischecking in on that right now
currently.
Yeah.
Eric (46:29):
And I was just.
Monty (46:31):
Oh sorry.
This is another reason why Ireally enjoy conversing with
Michelle.
I love how you just articulatedthat.
That was so well said.
Thank you for educating me alittle bit more.
I know we talked about itbriefly before, but that's a
fantastic explanation and Iwould say that that gives a
little more credence to why I'mexcited about regulation and why
(46:54):
whether it's the best exam outthere.
That's why I think M-TAS wentfor the exam, because you don't
know what the schools are doing.
We're actually looking atprotecting the public by having
that qualification.
So thanks again, Michelle.
Appreciate that, no problem,M-T.
Eric (47:14):
And I just wanted to.
That was great, michelle, andthank you for saying that.
I just wanted to add to thattoo, because the biggest problem
that a profession has and I getpeople, I would say, weekly,
emailing me and some people hateme for saying this and some
people are like thanks forsaying that is the biggest
problem our profession has isour entry to practice education
as shit.
For the most part, it's notvery good across the board,
(47:36):
across the country, and a lot ofit's outdated.
A lot of it is what you said,michelle, is like.
It's just the way things havealways been done, so, therefore,
it gets passed off as truth,and my last podcast I recently
released with Whitney Lowe hecalled it the lineage model of
care, which is basically justgets passed on from generation
(47:57):
to generation, and that's thepoint in the current oral
history, right?
It's based on kind of thisoutdated bio-mechanical,
biomedical way of looking fordysfunctions and anatomical
differences and fixing them, andthat's how most of the
curriculums are done out there.
Now, the problem that we have,though, is that, so, even in BC
(48:21):
and in the regulated provinces,the college is the one that
examines based on the curriculum, but the problem is, the
curriculum sucks.
For the most part it's not verygood.
The inter-jurisdictionalcompetency documents very
outdated.
There's some good stuff inthere.
There's things in there whichgets interpreted to being how a
(48:41):
school wants to interpret thatinformation and then they teach
based on that Right.
Michelle (48:46):
Because if anyone, you guys might, be familiar.
Eric (48:48):
Some of you listeners might be familiar with the
competency document.
Michelle (48:52):
It's quite You're talking about like the thumb
track.
Yeah, yeah, it's quite You'refamiliar with it.
Eric (48:58):
Yeah, it's quite vague, right in some of the stuff.
And like it says things in itlike RMTs must learn how to do a
postural assessment, but itdoesn't tell you whether, like
what the point of it is.
It doesn't tell you whetherthere's validity to it.
There's no evidence in it,right?
So it's just like.
So people are like oh well, youknow, when I learned how to do
(49:20):
a postural assessment usingplumb lines, you know 20 years,
I'm going to teach people how todo that now, even though also
in that same document it saysyou know, a massage therapist
must read current research andbe evidence-based.
Those two things contradicteach other.
So if you're going to beevidence-based, you're going to
realize that doing that staticpostural assessment has no
evidence to it.
Michelle (49:42):
Well, exactly right, and that's.
That was the conundrum I gotinto when I was teaching here a
couple of years ago.
It was like teaching in anassessments class and I'm like I
have to teach you assessmentsbecause it's on the curriculum,
but we know the validity ofthese assessments is shit.
So, and how many of you aregoing to hang a plumb line in
your clinic room before youassess somebody?
Eric (50:04):
Zero, right, it doesn't happen, but it's how the
curriculum is often taught,anyway.
So then and then.
So the schools teach this stuffand then the Our regulatory
college examines based on whatthese nine or 10 schools that
have NBC are examining.
Same thing happens in Ontario,right, because the schools teach
to pass a board exam.
It doesn't mean that the boardexam is a valid I'm going to
(50:28):
call it defensible document withevidence.
It's a representation of thestudents who are being taught.
The government, the Ministry ofHealth or the Ministry of
Advanced Education from myexperiences with our college and
with our association here, isthey.
The government doesn't care.
Yeah, right, they're just likeyou said, michelle, I loved how
you said that but they're justmaking sure that it ticks these
(50:50):
boxes to be an exam, and so thequality of what the students are
taught needs to change.
But then the schools then needto go to the college, and maybe
it's going to be easier for youguys in Saskatchewan, with less
people, I don't know, and lessschools, but they have to go to
the.
They're going to have to go tothe college and get together and
(51:11):
say, hey, this is what we'reteaching.
But when you have nine or 10different schools all teaching
different stuff.
Or you know, like how are theygoing to agree?
Like look at how difficult itwas for you guys to get three
associations together to movetowards regulation and having a
conversation, can you imagine melike getting all these
different private schoolstogether to talk about let's
(51:33):
come up with a curriculum that'sevidence-based, that's within
our scope of practice, and let'sall work together to build this
?
And there's no way it's goingto happen.
No, unless there's an externalpressure on them.
And I personally I would liketo think that external pressure
would be a college, but I don'tthink the college.
That's not their mandate.
Monty (51:53):
No, I don't think they'll do it, because you're not going
to take away from a privateenterprise and what they're
teaching and their proprietarystuff, so to speak, what they're
selling, that makes them unique.
It'd be very difficult, I think.
Eric (52:08):
Oh yeah, and I just, I mean, I talk about this and
complain about this all the time.
Maybe somebody will listen andtake charge of doing this.
But you guys, I mean, I'veexpressed great points from your
perspective too, but the boardexam and the licensing and the
one question that you hadsubmitted to me before Michelle,
(52:28):
to talk about was like why havea board exam and how do we
ensure it's actually relevant?
Michelle (52:35):
Yeah.
Monty (52:36):
I mean I think you have experience with this, because
Like you mean currently withM-tas or with a college.
Michelle (52:47):
Well, I think I mean.
My answer to all of this islike the three of us just need
to create one master's schoolthat everyone across Canada
attends, and then we know it'srelevant and up to date and
people are doing the right thing.
So I don't know if you guyshave this board exam, but let's
face it, we're too busy playingsoccer and drinking Starbucks
and enjoying our own lives to dothat.
So, at the end of the day,right, why have a board exam?
(53:08):
And is it relevant if we don'thave the quality of education
being presented as it relates tothat inter-jurisdictional
practice document that says youknow we're doing evidence-based
massage therapy, you know?
Monty (53:32):
that's a great question.
I mean, I still I guess I stilllook at it as you know.
On one hand, you're 100% rightabout, okay, what are the
schools teaching?
Can we control that?
Right now, no, is itevidence-based, or
evidence-informed at least?
(53:52):
Okay, is it relevant?
I still think we need to have,until we get that college set up
and legisl Sorry, regulated,because we are legislated.
I still think we need to havean MQE exam because I still
think that it holds up theintegrity of massage therapists,
in Saskatchewan at least.
(54:13):
I mean, I look at every otherhealthcare professional in terms
of physios or chiro's, they allhave a.
I don't even know if they havea provincial exam anymore.
They have a national exam.
But if we're unregulated, Ithink it still sets us apart and
says, hey, we're not going totake what the schools have
(54:33):
taught you.
And yes, maybe the exam isoutdated, even though we thought
it was updated because we'veworked with regulated provinces
on it.
I still think it's a necessarycomponent until we get that
legislation.
Michelle (54:46):
Yeah Well, or would you agree to necessary component
, 100% necessary once thelegislation comes through and
that becomes part of thecollege's mandate?
Because, again, currently Idon't think the public knows or
cares if somebody is NHPC or MTAS or some older.
Right now I think they, I valuefor M TAS that having that exam
(55:13):
is important for them as anassociation and I respect that.
But again, until the publicunderstands when, why it's
important, what does it matter?
And I think that's where Ithink having the college is
going to take that up that notch, where the public will then
(55:34):
understand the valve, theimportance of it.
Right now the only reason thepublic cares is if they're being
, is if they're workerscompensation or SGI, because M
TAS therapists are the onlytherapists who have billable
rights to direct bill WCB or SGIclaims, and that's the only
(55:54):
reason the public quote on airquotes would care is if I was in
a car accident and my Cairosays I need massage.
So they're going to refer me toan M TAS therapist because they
can direct bill WCB and SGI,right.
And that's just from myexperience, because if you look
at statistically speaking and Iwas the nerd who did this,
(56:16):
because that's who I am.
I actually kind of collaboratedwith NHPC to say like I've
talked to a couple clinics inthe city who are physio Cairo
clinics and I've investigatedwhat percent of their billables
are actually those third partyinsurers like workers comp and
SGI, because there was there wasa significant bias in
(56:40):
advertising for massagetherapists that it always said M
TAS therapists, m TAStherapists, and when they
started investigating theiractual clinic income, like maybe
two to 5% of their income wasfrom those types of clients and
the rest were all privateinsurance right and coverage or
(57:01):
out of pocket payments.
So my my goal was to educatethe other community of the
carers and the physios to saylike there's other massage
therapists out here, other thanM TAS ones too, who are just as
competent to work at your clinic.
They may not be able to directbill to WCB and SGI but as a
business perspective that's onlythis tiny little part of your
(57:23):
business income.
So why are you limiting yourscope of potential massage
therapists in your clinic?
So thanks to me, I guess NHPChas been doing a campaign for
the last couple of years out toprivate practices and clinics
saying, hey, we're an HPC and wehave massage therapists and
we're great practitioners too,and this is this is what you
(57:45):
know they can bring to yourclinic and you know, when you
advertise for massage therapists, don't be so biased and saying
you want M TAS.
Only make sure that youunderstand that you know there's
other streams of income otherthan this right and I think from
my experience working withthese other colleagues, the
(58:06):
carers and physios, that's theirperception too is that the only
benefits and M TAS massagetherapist is the billables and
not necessarily the qualitycontrol from the board exam.
But I don't think I don't.
I don't perceive that anyonehas had those conversations with
other health care practitionersand I think there's a
(58:28):
misperception out there thatit's more about the quality of
care versus actually it's justbecause they're more accessible
to bill to those two insurancecompanies.
Monty (58:43):
Yeah, I mean I can't, I can't disagree with what you've
said whatsoever.
I think it's just like I said.
I think I've just known the,the hard work I feel that we've
put in, right from 9690 foot 96,all the way through, or at
(59:05):
least what I've done, and I justI guess I stand behind it, I
guess I believe in it.
It's one of those, it's one ofthose things to that you talk
about.
It's just like what, I guess.
What do you believe and why doyou believe it?
Okay, well, are ourcompetencies any different?
I would suggest that you have afew more competencies in your
tool bag than I do, based onyour kin degree and your rehab
(59:28):
stuff that you've done and it'sbeen amazing.
I mean something you gotoutside of scope of massage
therapy practice.
But I'm, I guess, jumping rightnow.
I'm happy that you're that theNHPC is finally starting to
advertise.
Mtas has been doing it for yearsand I know lots of people are
like I can't believe mtas isdoing that.
They're making us sound bad.
(59:49):
I don't know if that was.
I guess that's perception I was.
I've always been proud to bemtas and that my associations
out there advocating for thepublic, or at least what we
think we're advocating for andbringing a presence and bringing
a presence to, you know,massage therapy or I guess this
(01:00:10):
in this case it could be theassociation with mtas members
and I haven't really heard any m, nhpc or some other stuff being
out there.
But if they're starting to, Ithink that's that's absolutely
great, that your associationstarting to publicly advocate
more.
Michelle (01:00:24):
Yeah, I'm blowing it into and again looking back to
this podcast about how would theregulation impact RMT's.
I think I've said this to youbefore, marty, as well as
anything that's out.
There should be a boat massagetherapist as a profession period
and not a boat association, aBC or D right.
(01:00:48):
And so we do.
We do it for the love of ourprofession, not for the.
I mean, we can love and beproud of our association,
absolutely.
But when you peel back thoselayers, you and I can have these
conversations very respectfullyand very humbly, because you
and I both love being massagetherapists, period massage
(01:01:09):
therapists, and it doesn'tmatter what association we
belong to or what pastbackground we have.
What matters is we love what wedo and as a profession, we want
to see this profession beelevated.
So the regulation is also goingto my opinion and I hope it does
eliminate this great dividebetween a, b and C association
(01:01:33):
so that we can all still be veryproud of being massage
therapists and still feelconnected to our association,
because it does a hell of agreat role of representing
massage therapy as a whole andnot just its own slogan and
tuning its own horn for its ownassociation right.
(01:01:54):
And who knows, maybe once thecolleges is here and we're going
to see a great shift from allthe members of NHPC and some
more to move into mtas, becauseit'll be interesting to see how
those associations and they mayor may not crumble with this
college.
And I think the college isgoing to create that mandate of
(01:02:16):
neutrality right, and it's goingto say you can't advertise this
association or that massagetherapist with a priority or
with a bias over another,another massage therapist or
another association.
So it creates equality, forwhich we'll hopefully harmonize
(01:02:36):
all the professionals in ourprovince and and break down
those invisible walls that we'veall put up around ourselves and
really help us appreciate eachother for the fact that we're
all a human and be.
We're all massage therapistswho love our profession.
Eric (01:02:54):
I love that, michelle.
Yeah, well said, you're veryquotable, michelle.
I love it.
Thanks.
One thing I just wanted to sayto just kind of as we wrap up
here a little bit, is that, youknow, the way I see it from kind
of an outside observer is thatall the different associations
creates an us versus them 100%.
(01:03:15):
Or we have this or, as inMonte's case with is some of the
problems with being in theCSMTA is you have that regulated
versus unregulated, thisconstant us versus them, which
is, like you said, it puts up,puts up barriers, like these
artificial barriers, rather thanwhat we're looking for is we're
all professionals, we're allmassage therapists, we all want
(01:03:36):
what's best for our clients, ourpatients, the people that come
to see us, and we want what'sbest for for the public as well
as what's best for theprofession.
And when you've got thesedifferent associations kind of
trying to vie for control andpower, I think it negatively
impacts the profession in ways,in bigger ways than probably
(01:04:00):
people want.
A lot of people maybe don'twant to admit, but that's what I
would see, because if you'relooking, if you're moving
towards regulation and I thinkthe regulation is where we
should all be like theprofession should be regulated
in every province.
We should have a nationalstandard or national exam that
is like the same and thereshould be a curriculum that is
pretty much the same, you know,and so that we should have a
(01:04:23):
licensing exam of some kind andhopefully it's evidence based
and hopefully it's better thanit has been.
But we do.
We do need that regulatoryprocess and you know we need the
associations to stop fightingwith each other or like trying
to vie for power, because thatthat us versus them is is not
helping.
Monty (01:04:44):
I don't think no, and that's great.
That's why we're all workingtogether now and hopefully
getting that out of our minds atleast.
We're all connected togethernow, like Michelle said, and
will truly be all connected onceregulation comes in.
So I wouldn't be still doingmassage therapy after 28 years
on this body if I didn't lovewhat I'm doing.
Eric (01:05:09):
I appreciate.
I think we should.
I.
We had a whole bunch of talkingpoints.
I think we've only addressedlike a fifth of them.
I think we should.
We should have you guys back onand do a part two, if you're up
for that, and we can kind ofexpand on this, maybe a little
bit more talk about somethingelse.
I've really enjoyed, enjoyedthis, enjoy listening to you
guys talk.
I've learned a lot from you.
(01:05:30):
Know your, your experiences, soso thanks for sharing those
with with me and with theaudience.
I appreciate a lot.
Monty (01:05:36):
Welcome.
Happy for having you me on.
Eric (01:05:39):
Yeah, thanks.
Monday is good to meet you, andthanks again, michelle.
Michelle (01:05:43):
Oh, it was a pleasure.
Thanks for having me again.
Look forward to part two andthree, and four probably.
Eric (01:05:51):
Thank you for listening to my podcast.
Please subscribe so you can benotified of all future episodes.
Purpose versus is now availableto watch on YouTube, so if you
enjoyed this episode, pleaselike, subscribe and share to
your favorite social mediaplatforms.
If you'd like to connect withme, I can be reached to my
website, eric Purviscom, or sendme a DM through either Facebook
or Instagram at Eric Purvis RMT.
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