The Knowledge Summit Series Part 1: Rewiring Safety with Alanna Thompson

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Episode Transcript

Eric (00:19):
Thank you.
I'm excited for the next seriesof episodes where I'll be
featuring the lineup of speakersfor my upcoming online
conference, the Knowledge Summit.
This will be presented liveover Zoom on October 5th.
In this conference, we're goingto feature five different
presenters, including me, whoare from across Canada and the
United Kingdom.
Each presenter will be sharingtheir knowledge and clinical
advice on a variety of importanttopics.

(00:41):
In today's episode, I'm goingto have a discussion with Alana
Thompson of important topics.
In today's episode, I'm goingto have a discussion with Alana
Thompson.
Alana is an RMT from justoutside of Calgary, alberta, and
she recently finished mynine-month course creator's
program, where she completed hercourse Rewiring Safety.
Massage for Nervous SystemRegulation.
I hope you enjoy this episodeand thanks for listening.
Hello, alana, and welcome to anepisode of Massage Science.

(01:05):
Is this your first ever podcast?

Alanna (01:07):
It is my first ever podcast.
I'm very excited, so exciting.

Eric (01:10):
I've had so many first ever people lately, and so thank
you for being here.
Why don't you just quickly tellall of our listeners a little
bit about you?
Where are you and what are youall about?

Alanna (01:20):
Yeah, great.
So I'm a massage therapist inAlberta.
I live in Cochrane, which isclose to Calgary, if people
aren't familiar with Cochrane,but it's a lot nicer than
Calgary, it's smaller and alittle less intense.
I came to massage pretty latein life.
I didn't go to massage schooluntil I was almost 41.
So background's pretty diverse.
Before that I have a bachelor'sdegree in kinesiology, which I
took at the UFC because they hadan outdoor pursuits program and

(01:42):
I wanted to work in the outdoorindustry.
I took at the U of C becausethey had an outdoor pursuits
program and I wanted to work inthe outdoor industry.
So that was my first career.
I did that first and then Iswitched around a bunch Like I
worked as well.
I spent a year living in SriLanka doing some international
element work.
I was an event coordinator andthen I taught wilderness first
aid for about a decade and acouple of things.

(02:02):
When I look back over thatcareer path, I've always been an
educator.
Like can't turn it off inprobably a pretty annoying way,
like when I was a hiking guide.
It was educational, it wastrees and rocks and flowers and
I couldn't go for a hike with myfriends without being like do
you want to know somethingreally cool about aspen trees?
Of course they humor me still.
Of course we do, milana.

(02:23):
So I, yeah, I teach.
That's at the heart of what Ido.
I like to joke that I come froma teaching dynasty.
Both my parents are teachers.
My grandma was a teacher.
My great-grandma was one of thefirst women to get a master's
degree in Alberta in education.
Almost all of my cousins areteachers.
Just some people are like lawor medicine, but we went for the

(02:47):
big money.

Eric (02:47):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Alanna (02:48):
And then the other.

Eric (02:49):
Thing is not a place for people to get rich right.

Alanna (02:52):
Yeah, yeah, exactly.
And then the other thing thatbecomes very clear when I look
back over that career path is Iwas diagnosed with ADHD shortly
after I went to massage schoolabout 41, which I think becomes
apparent when you see that I dosomething for four or five years
and then I get bored and then Ihave to refresh it and do
something else.
And I went to massage schoolbecause I couldn't make money

(03:12):
making custom canoe paddles.
That's what I really wanted todo and I'm not a very good
woodworker.
I'd have to sell a paddle forlike $3,000 if I was going to
make any money on it.
So I thought, well, I just Iwant to do something with my
hands, because everything I'ddone had been sort of more
brainy cerebral stuff and it wasCOVID.
Everyone's stress was very high,my stress was very high.

(03:34):
That was probably a big part ofwhat prompted the ADHD
diagnosis.
And it was also ironic.
A friend of mine said so noone's supposed to be close to
anybody and you're going totouching people school.
Yeah, I'm going to touchingpeople school in the middle of a
pandemic, but yeah, so that'sthe background.
And leading up to being amassage therapist who wants to

(03:57):
educate and cannot stopanswering the curious questions
in my brain.
That was the same way when Iwas teaching first aid.
I got to I gotta go.

Eric (04:04):
I gotta go understand it so I can remember it, so I can
tell someone else yes, yeah,teaching can become this
addictive thing where, if youhave this constant pursuit of
knowledge, you all we, some ofus tend to want to just like
share that with others becausewe're so passionate about it.
Yeah, and that was my journeyas well, too, as I've been.
If I look back, like my firstjob, which I start telling

(04:25):
people now been.
If I look back at like my firstjob which I start telling
people now in the courses that Iteach is my first job was as a
guitar instructor oh cool, Ididn't know that yeah, yeah, a
lot of people don't know well,people that knew me you grew up
with know that.
But most people now have no ideathat I play or played, and so I
just loved it and I had theopportunity.
Like so many things in life,you get these, you get a bit

(04:46):
lucky, you get a bit fortunate.
Opportunities come and the guythat was my instructor was
looking for someone to take onnew learners, so not like people
that knew nothing.
And so that was my job, becauseI wasn't great, but I was okay.
I was good enough to teach andI knew the basics really well.
I could teach chords and Icould teach technique and
whatnot, but anyway, so yeah, Igot an opportunity to do that

(05:07):
and I said sure, and at the timeit was, I was in grade.
I was grade 12.
And it was like the best jobever because I went in one
evening after school andSaturday mornings for a few
hours and to me at the time itwas like ridiculously good money
, I thought, and I enjoyed itand I enjoyed being able to
teach.
I don't know if I was any goodat it, but I did that for about

(05:29):
three years, two and a halfyears or so and yeah, and then
moving on to teaching,continuing education and to
coaching soccer, which isteaching, it's just that's what
I love to do, and so it can.
It's kind of addicting in someways when you're passionate
about something you really wantto share with others because you
are convinced that what youknow is going to make their life

(05:50):
better.

Alanna (05:52):
Exactly, that's exactly it and that's the theme for me
here, that this is why I'm amassage therapist, it's why I
want to teach, because I'mconfident that the little thing
that I know is it's been greatfor me, so for sure it's going
to be great for somebody else.
And I actually have to becareful with that sometimes,
because people don't always wantto be taught.
But I think, yeah, it's that Ican't turn it off.
Like I was out for a hike withfriends a couple of weeks ago

(06:14):
and when my friend works inconstruction and I was like you
want to know something reallycool about your brain, he's like
, okay, obviously, like, yoursomatosensory cortex maps your
whole body.
It knows where your hand iswhen you're holding a tool.
It extends the map of your handto the tool.
So if the tool is hit bysomething like, you know where
that is visually, but you alsoknow where it is in your brain.

(06:35):
And he's like, okay, yeah, cool.
People just humor me andthey're like, yeah, that's
fascinating, let's keep talkingabout whatever we were talking
about before.
But it is, yeah, and I bet youwere a great guitar teacher,
because I think you're a naturalteacher and I think you can be
a natural teacher.
I also think you can be.
You can learn to get better atit.

Eric (06:55):
But I think some people just are yeah, well, thanks for
saying that, yeah, thanks, yeah,the for me teaching.
If I think back to the firstever like pain science lecture I
did, which was, I'm pretty sureit was like October, november
of 2015, maybe, maybe evenearlier than that.
It was the fall, earlier in thefall.

(07:16):
Anyway, it was around somewherein 2015.
And if I think back to that, assome of the first ones I did, I
was like, oh my God, they wereawful.
I'm so embarrassed.
I remember the first like bigone I did, which was October
2016.
I think I had 27 people and Iwas like, oh my God, this is
huge.
And I look back to that courseand I think I would never teach

(07:37):
anything in that course everagain.
And if I did, it would becompletely.
I would do it completelydifferently.
So, yeah, it's some of it isyou have to have this, you have
to know your knowledge.
You also have to have, you haveto be aware that you can.
You're going to probably suckor not be great.

Alanna (07:57):
Yeah.

Eric (07:57):
But if you just push and persevere and you're gonna have
good days and bad days,sometimes you'll teach a course.
I'm sure it was like that withyou in first aid You'll teach a
course.
I'm sure it was like that withyou in first aid.
You'll teach a course and it'lland you're like freaking,
nailed it.
That was so good and sometimesyou could teach the exact same
content and you leave and youthink that was powerful.
I did.
I want to redo.
You can't those impressions youmade on those people, however

(08:22):
many were there.
You may never get that otherchance.
So it's tough.

Alanna (08:24):
There's a huge mental game you have to play with
yourself, I think when you're ateacher as well nothing left to

(08:44):
say, because I'd been through myPowerPoint that I was using to
make sure I remembered what tosay.
And I talked with my boss aboutit afterwards I was like, is
that okay?
We covered all the materialthat.
And he was like I mean, you'regoing to get better at this,
alana.
No, we're not going to stopcourses at 2.30.
And then I got to the pointwhere my struggle.
I had to keep using aPowerPoint so that I stayed on
track enough that I didn't goover every single day because I

(09:04):
just had so much more to say andI had so many more examples or
scenarios or whatever.
And I think the other thing thatrelates to both teaching and
massage is I've alwaysunderstood people well and it is
part of the sort of ADHDconstellation of symptoms.
We tend to be empathetic and wetend to see connections and see

(09:25):
people really well.
And so with teaching, I evenremember being a student when I
was in university.
I could tell if someone wasasking a question in the class
and the prof wasn't answeringthe question that was asked, I'd
be like that's not what heasked, that's not what he meant,
and so I'd kind of wait andthen if it didn't get answered,
I put my hand up and I'd be likefollow up, and then I would

(09:48):
just rephrase the question in adifferent way and then the prof
would answer what the initialperson meant.
And I remember one time I feellike my brain does fairly easily
, which is a huge advantage tome as an instructor, but it's
also a huge advantage as amassage therapist.

Eric (10:13):
Yeah, and to kind of rewind for a second, I was
curious about what you said.
You went to massage schoolduring the pandemic.
Did you actually were you inschool during lockdown stuff, or
was it just coming out of that?
Were you in school duringlockdown stuff or was it just
coming out of that?

Alanna (10:25):
It was.
We had a couple of lockdowns soI started.
Oh my gosh, I wish I couldremember dates.
It was not right at the startLike we'd been through the
initial, like full lockdown, andthen it would have been like
January after that, so it wouldhave been almost a year into the
pandemic, but it was still whenI started.
We were masked and we onlyworked with one other student

(10:48):
throughout the four day module.
It was a blended program, so wewere in person for four days
and we only had direct contactwith that one other students.
So it was just keeping thatcontamination pool small.
But it was actually I think itwas a huge advantage for me
because the class ahead of me,like the class six months ahead

(11:10):
of me, they went through.
They were like Zoom classesonly and then most of their
clinical was only on otherstudents.
They didn't get any publicaccess until the very end of
their two-year program and theyI think they had to open the
clinic at one at some pointbecause they're like we got to
be able to do this.
We have to get these studentssome actual experience.

(11:31):
And so my class we worked ononly other students for maybe it
was a good three or four months, I think.
So you would go to clinic foryour clinic shift.
You would give a massage andreceive a massage.
So we were learning so muchbecause we had students ahead of
us giving us massages and wewere giving massages to students

(11:52):
ahead of us and you just youlearn so much by receiving
massage.
So that was fantastic.
But then the vast majority ofour clinical experience was with
actual public.

Eric (12:04):
Okay, yeah, I was so curious how that worked for
those that went to school duringthe pandemic, because I know,
yeah, there was certain cohortsthat just barely had any
hands-on stuff?
Yeah, and that would bedifficult.

Alanna (12:20):
You went to Vickers, I was at Vickers.

Eric (12:22):
Yeah, I think.
Yeah, you would have startedthere, just as I was beginning
to do the Crickham Consultantwith them.
I think I started in 2021 or2022, maybe Maybe 2022 it was
Okay.

Alanna (12:35):
Yeah, because I graduated almost three years ago
, so it'll be three years ago inOctober.

Eric (12:40):
Okay.

Alanna (12:40):
So like October 2022, I guess, yeah, yeah, and I didn't
know about you then no.
So you were doing behind thescenes stuff at that point,
which is too bad.
I would have loved to have beenthere Like well-known
Consulting.
That would have been reallycool.

Eric (12:54):
Yeah, the program that they have now is fantastic, from
what I've seen and from thework I put input in.
But the people that did all thework were primarily Alyssa and
Linda and some other facultythat were there.
I'm just using these names.
People are like who the hellare you talking about?

Alanna (13:09):
But the people that are running the program they're the
ones that did all the work.

Eric (13:12):
I just gave them information and helped guide
them towards different ways ofdoing it.
But what I've seen, speaking ofeducation the theme of this
today is I had an opportunity afew months ago to do like a zoom
presentation to the class wherewe it was more of a
conversation about stuff and itwas so validating to me to see

(13:34):
these students that were intheir last term of school, who
were skeptical, who were askinggood questions, who were aware
of the history and traditions ofthe profession and like the
belief-based stuff that got usto where we got us, from point A
to point B and the way thingswere, and they were very much
aware of that.

(13:54):
But they were also extremelyaware of the current evidence,
the current science, currentbest practices, knowing that a
lot of the old stuff that wasout there was nonsense, but
being able to understand thatit's like a blend, like we can
still have the history and thetradition of what massage is,
but we can update it withcurrent science, understandings
and narratives and why that'simportant and how that actually

(14:15):
makes you a better therapist byadopting these newer ideas,
which is stuff I know thatyou're going to we'll talk about
shortly in your course or yourtalk that you're going to be
doing.
It was really.
I really loved that to see,because stuff that I've been
railing on about for the lastdecade I I knew it was possible,
I believed in it, and then nowI've seen it firsthand with them

(14:36):
and I think, okay, this is,this should be the way for the
way they do things, should be amodel for other places that
other institutions that arelooking to change, and I know
there's another school that'sjust opened up in BC that I know
has got a very good updatedcurriculum as well.
Good, yeah, yeah.

Alanna (14:57):
I've got a friend who comes to my nerd club, who's
graduating from Vickers in acouple of weeks and if she's a
reflection of what's going onthere, she is excellent.
She's curious and just wantsall the info all the time.
So she's curious, she justwants all the information all
the time and she's very open towhat does this actually look
like on the table in front ofyou, which is, yeah, and that

(15:20):
was part of my transition.
I went to school.
I have a kines degree, so Iwent in thinking I was going to
be very biomechanical and verytechnical.
I wanted to work like aphysiotherapist, I wanted to do
all the orthopedic testing and Ididn't know about that before I
started.
Once I sort of started lookingat the curriculum, I went oh
yeah, this is going to be great.
I'm going to work on athleticinjury and be very like

(15:40):
science-based air quotes,science-based air quotes,
science-based.
And then, because I am such anerd and also because it was
COVID and I had nothing to do, Iwas barely teaching at the time
when you registered they gaveyou access to some resources
first so I could do it like A&Pbefore I started, and I don't
remember whether it was throughthat or at the first module.
But I was just.
I was looking through everythingthat was available on the on

(16:02):
the Moodle shell and there wassomething there was like a blog
post article about these mythsabout massage right Like
releases toxins and improvedcirculation, and this person had
written like you know, here'show this is problematic and
these aren't really real.
And so I didn't know that thosemyths existed, and when I was
introduced to them, I wasintroduced by this article that

(16:23):
the school had provided.
That was shears, why this iswrong.
And then I went down thatrabbit hole and I ran across
Paul Ingram's site pain scienceand then I read everything that
he wrote, and so I went intoschool very skeptical of a lot
of the science that I waslearning, and it was a really

(16:44):
interesting transition.
So that confluence of beingdiagnosed with ADHD, my stress
being high, everyone's stressbeing high, because it was COVID
I was very intrigued by this.
Some of the stuff you're goingto learn is probably not real,
and so I very quickly switchedmy focus to I want to help with
stress, I want to work withmental health symptoms, I want

(17:05):
to do really, really goodrelaxation massage from the
perspective of actually givingpeople a bit of a break from
their stress and it was such adramatic shift for me and it
happened very quickly.
And then I also I did a casestudy on ADHD and depression and
massage.
That was my second year casestudy and I worked with a really
good friend of mine who hasvery severe depression and I

(17:30):
ended up thinking like, is thereanything better I could be
doing with my time and energyand skills than allowing
somebody to set it down for abit, to feel like they're not
alone, to feel that release intheir body and in their nervous
system?
I can't think of anything I'drather be doing with my time.
So that that was a hugetransition for me and it's been

(17:51):
really gratifying.
I've had people, like clients,say I'm so glad you went to
massage school, I needed this.
But I've also had friends sayyou're doing the right thing,
like you're energized, you'repassionate, you're literally
never shutting up about massage,and so it's been really
rewarding to have that.
This is the right thing at theright time for me, yeah.

Eric (18:12):
It's so important to.
I think it's obviously a biasof mine but to recognize that
the orthopedic kind of physiolight type approach that is
common in massage.
Like some people like topractice away, I know for me I
practiced like that for that wayfor a long time and because I
came into the profession, as inathletics and in sport and

(18:36):
wanting to work with athletesand wanting to know all the
tests and all the fix it typethings.
But then, yeah, over time yourealize, as my practice started
to transition to come more thischronic pain and more
facilitating or coaching kind ofsupport, self-management type
stuff, which was completelyactually opposite but just a
very different approach from theway I used to work.

(18:57):
It says I was learning more.
I realized that and startedreading the research is that
massage from a sport rehabperspective isn't nearly as
effective as it is in mentalhealth and in relaxation and
stress management.
And unfortunately, whetherpeople want to believe that or

(19:19):
not, that is where a lot of theevidence is and I think that we
could really, even though it'sthe whole mental health thing,
people get worried that we'regetting out of our scope of
practice, which I think is a badargument.
I think that's a bit of a strawman argument.
The weakening, providingmassage that feels good and

(19:39):
invokes is that the right word Afeeling of relaxation or just
awareness of what you'reexperiencing, that kind of
interoceptive like what are youfeeling in your body, is
extremely powerful, and forreasons that maybe a lot of
people aren't aware of.

Alanna (19:58):
Yes, exactly, and I think I like what you said there
about the out of scope thing,because I think it's important
that we're not trying to stepinto the role of a psychologist
or a psychotherapist At the sametime.
We all know that people aregoing to show up on our table
looking for that, and at schoolwe were taught how to not enter

(20:22):
that, like how to stay in ourscope and bring it back to the
body, but we weren't given anytools to say let's talk about
your stress from a physicalperspective.
Let's talk about how the bodyimpacts the stress response and
what can, what could we do inthis session that you can then
carry forward that allows yournervous system to feel safe, and

(20:43):
whether that impacts the mentalhealth symptoms, the overall
stress response, the happiness,or whether it impacts their
sport performance.
Right, some people they have agreat massage and they go and
perform better, maybe becausetheir nervous system was a
little bit more relaxed and wasable to feel safer in.
Whatever muscular stuff isgoing on isn't as painful right
now, so then I can go in andperform a little bit better.

(21:05):
So that's what I'm reallyinterested in and that's what
the course is about is we canabsolutely engage in people's
stress responses in a way thatkeeps us in scope, as long as
we're talking about physiologyand the body and the nervous
system, and keeping it away fromcounseling and advice and
trying to direct people towardsa particular path, but just

(21:28):
saying to people how does thisfeel in your body?
Does it feel better?
Does it feel as painful?
Is your movement feeling better?
And I use the term safetynervous system safety a lot and
that can be confusing becausepeople go.
I didn't feel unsafe before andso then I have to say, well,
here's what I mean by safety.
I need a better word for it,but in any case, I think there's
I know because I do it all thetime there's so much we can do

(21:52):
that actually changes thesymptoms of stress and mental
health and it's appropriate.

Eric (21:58):
It's necessary, it's absolutely necessary.

Alanna (22:02):
It's absolutely necessary and that's the passion
that keeps me going is the wecould spend.
How many episodes do we have?
Because we could spend all ofthe episodes talking about the
different people that you and Ihave seen on our tables, who
leave the massage different onour tables, who leave the

(22:22):
massage different, who leave themassage empowered or feeling
peaceful or like back in theirbodies or hopeful, and then have
some skills to carry thatforward.
It's absolutelytransformational and I know that
sounds like a littleegotistical, but honestly it's
absolutely transformational forpeople's lives to have this type
of care in a way that makesthem feel, yeah, empowered,
hopeful, yeah and that should bethe goal of all of us.

Eric (22:43):
I'm sure a lot of people the majority of massage
therapists are gonna, are gonnahave those experiences, if not
all right, or that, were youtreat somebody and they leave
feeling empowered, they feeldifferent, but sometimes we
don't know why.
Yes, and I think that the keything is to know why and how and
to learn some skills andknowledge on how to be better at

(23:04):
that, to maximize those effects, and which is, I think, where
your course comes in.
And let's talk about that,because part of these episodes
that we're doing is to promoteyour stuff, to promote the
Knowledge Summit which is comingup.
Your talk is going to be at10.15 am Pacific on October 5th,
called Rewiring Safety.
Massage Therapy for NervousSystem Regulation.
And a little plug as well forthis is that you went through my

(23:28):
last course creators group,which is where the information
and the process of creating thiscourse happened.
So why don't you share?
I'm just curious to hear yourperspective in about your
creation of this course, yourprocess for it, why you chose it
and also why is thisinformation so important?

Alanna (23:52):
Yeah, okay, that was a lot of questions.
So the process was so much morethan I thought I really thought
, okay, I've been teaching for adecade.
Like putting together a courseon stuff that I teach to my
clients all the time, this isn'tgonna be difficult.
I need Eric's expertise onputting it online and the
website stuff and the paymentgateways and all those things
that I find really overwhelming.

(24:12):
But I falsely thought thatputting together a course was
gonna be pretty simple and Ithink if I had just written down
all of the things that Ithought were important, it would
have been okay, like it wouldhave been.
It still would have beenhelpful.
But the the encouragements thatyou had in the course to say
how do you know what you know?

(24:32):
So, as an instructor, you'regoing to be teaching people.
I and I agree with you.
It's our responsibility to makesure that what we're teaching
is as accurate as it can be.
We know that evidence evolvesand changes and I like the way
you always say let's try and beless wrong with what we're
teaching people.
So that was a huge burden isn'tthe right word.

(24:54):
But that feeling of yeah, I gotto be as correct as I can be
and I have to make sure I'm notmaking these logical leaps and
presenting them as evidence.
If I'm making a logical leap,I'm going to say here's what I
know, here's what the evidencesays, here's the assumption I'm
making based on that, here's whyit makes sense to me and here's
what I see clinically.

(25:14):
So that process of finding theresearch was all-consuming and
and fascinating, like the kindof stuff I run.
I ran across an article theother day on the on the
vestibular system and howvestibular dysfunction can
present for people in this senseof they call it unrealization

(25:37):
or unpersonalization.
I don't feel like a real person.
I don't feel like I'm goingabout my life, I'm not in my
body.
And I've got a patient I'veseen for a very long time.
He's got multiple concussions.
He was telling me he's got thisvestibular dysfunction.
He said I'm scared of heights.
I said what's that?
Like?
He said I can't go more thantwo steps up on a ladder.
And I went oh okay, this isn'tscared of heights, like I'm

(26:00):
standing on the edge of a cliff.
This is your vestibular systemhas no idea how high you
actually are.
And so I asked him about thisdepersonalization, derealization
thing and he said oh yeah, Iknow exactly what you're talking
about.
He said I call it watching amovie.
I'm watching a movie of my life.
That's what it feels like.
He said I'm missing massivegaps.
I have massive memory gaps ofyears.
I just don't remember.

(26:20):
So I'm in the research, I'mreading it, I'm like, oh, this
is so fascinating.
And then the next day somebodyshows up who starts talking
about that thing.
And because I have spent allthis time in the research, I
know that I should ask about it,and I also know that I might be
able to do something that wouldhelp with that.
I might be able to provide somevestibular stimulation in a

(26:43):
treatment that feels good to hisvestibular system.
Maybe we find something on thetable that feels great and we
can translate that into a littleexercise he can do before he
climbed a ladder.
So he's stimulating hisvestibular system in a very safe
way that maybe he can get fourrungs up on a ladder, which
makes washing his windows easier.

(27:03):
And so I think part of theimportance of this knowledge is
my coworkers will often saywhere do you find these people?
I have top-notch weirdos on mytable, and I say that in the
most loving way possible.
I love the weird stuff, likethe stuff that just doesn't fit
in a normal box, and if I'm notlike super metaphysical about

(27:27):
this, is the universe sending mepeople who have weird things,
who knows?
But I think I'm just asking.
So when somebody says they'relaying face down on my table and
they seem really congested andI say, oh, your sinus is feeling
really clogged, and I say, oh,your sinus is feeling really
clogged, and they say, yeah, Ihave had sinus congestion
nonstop for 16 months, I'm like,oh, what happened 16 months ago

(27:48):
?
Concussion?
Oh, okay, I wonder if we'relooking at some
neuroinflammation in somecranial nerve that's connected
to the sinuses.
Why don't we try to see if wecan make some change for that?
So I think I'm just I'm in theinformation, so I'm more willing
to ask and I'm more willing tosay if you're willing to explore
it, maybe we can find somethingthat helps.

(28:09):
I don't remember the questionsyou asked.
Now, what was the process ofcreating the course?

Eric (28:18):
Yeah, that was the first one and I can't remember.
And so we'll release and belike you missed questions.
Yeah, so the process and alsojust the importance of the
knowledge.
That's the key thing.
Why is the content you'reteaching important?
How does it make life better?

Alanna (28:37):
So, without overstating it, it's foundational knowledge
that makes everything better theentire world, I think so.
The nervous system affectseverything about our experience
of the world and the state ofthe nervous system.
And I mean that how close arewe to feeling threatened or how
close are we to feeling safe inour nervous system?
That impacts everything thathappens within our bodies,

(29:00):
between us and other people,between us and our environment.
So if our nervous system isfeeling more threatened by,
maybe, a lack of information oran actual stressful event, we're
going to go more towards astress response, maybe a
full-blown stress response ormaybe somewhere in between, and
that's going to impact our pain,our movement quality, our

(29:22):
cognition, our ability to intakesensory input and integrate
that.
So if we can use the body toshift the nervous system state
more towards feeling safe andfeeling relaxed, then we get the
benefit of better movement,less pain, better cognition,
better sensory intake andintegration, which then

(29:44):
translates to this person leavesmy table and they are.
They're moving better for therest of the day, they're happier
for the rest of the day, theirability to remember things is
better because their nervoussystem isn't functioning in a
stress state anymore.
So that's the way I look atthings.
What are the symptoms of stressthat are in front of me?
How do I see that present andcan we find something in this

(30:08):
session that feels powerful andsignificant to the person on the
table?
If so, great.
We have a good session.
But also also we can thenhopefully translate that into
some tool or exercise, like thehomework kind of stuff that they
can continue to use that to geta little bit of that benefit.
So it's great that you feelrelaxed on the massage table.

(30:32):
I have a trauma informedpractice and I treat a lot of
people who have PTSD or goingthrough some significant stuff,
and I've had a couple peopletell me this is the only place I
feel safe, this is the onlyplace I feel relaxed, and that,
of course, is like reallygratifying but also really
terrible at the same time, andso my goal with that person is
always, as we continue to worktogether, to find little things

(30:56):
that connect them to that senseof safety later in their own
lives, in their own environment.
So if I can give them a littlebit of like, here's how your
stress system works.
What could you do that thatmakes this feel?
Makes you feel like you doright now, but like at home or
when you leave the grocery storeor where, wherever it is that
you're feeling that intensestress.

Eric (31:20):
I love it.
Do you think that the this kindof like nervous system focused
ideas knowledge?
I guess not ideas knowledge.
Do you feel that what you areoffering is different from other
kind of similar type coursesthat are out there?

Alanna (31:41):
Yes and no.
So I took a course on the vagusnerve, the nervous system, how
the vagus nerve interacts witheverything, and that was the
start of the journey for me andit was really interesting.
But then I went okay, the vagusnerve does interoception,
amongst other things.
But here's a sense that we havethis perception of our interior

(32:04):
selves.
But we've got a bunch of othersenses vision, touch, taste,
smell, balance, proprioception.
So if we could, all of thosesenses are ways into the nervous
system safety.
So working with the vagus nerveis great and I love it and I do
it all the time, but that'sonly one way in.

(32:25):
So I have somebody on my tableregularly now who is very
hypermobile.
She's pursuing an iris-damodiagnosis, she's highly anxious
and she has off-the-chartsinteroception.
She can feel everything thathappens in her body, which is
quite common in hypermobileconditions and it can be a
threat.
So for her, I want herinteroception to feel safe, but

(32:49):
maybe what would be more helpfulis better exteroception.
So a vision exercise makes herfeel better in her environment,
gives her more accurateinformation about what's going
on around her and allows herenvironment, gives her more
accurate information aboutwhat's going on around her and
allows her nervous system tofeel safe in a way that isn't
about.
Well, what was that weirdsensation?
Or what was that weird pain?
Or did my joint just slip outagain?

(33:10):
We're using other pathways toimpact nervous system safety
that are creative, different.
I think we're always workingwith the nervous system.
Like every time we do anythingto anyone, we're impacting their
nervous system.
The way I see my course isteaching people how to do it

(33:30):
more deliberately and morecreatively and also, I really
hope, more simply.
So the question I'm alwaysasking myself is does this seem
better for the person on thetable?
So if I try something, I wasdoing something the other day on
somebody.
I was working on their jaw andI really thought it was going to

(33:51):
help and she went well, we needto stop.
She put her hand up, which isthe signal that we have to
communicate.
She put her hand up and Istopped right away and she said
that's giving me really sharppain right where you are, but
it's also making the pain.
She has chronic pain in her leg.
It's also making the pain in myleg worse and I went okay,
that's not the thing for you, atleast not yet.
We might come back to it later,but right now, let's back off

(34:14):
of that.

Eric (34:23):
Let's soothe that whole area of the face and the
trigeminal nerve and then let'sreevaluate how the body feels
after five minutes of being nice.
What I like about this idea, oryour ideas for how you teach
this course and I've seen someof the videos that you've made,
where it's yeah, you use morethan just touch but use movement
and use visualization and useother sensory tools to try to
bring awareness, whether that'sto help range of motion or

(34:45):
functional tasks, bringing indifferent sensory cues, rather
than just touching the area andpassively moving it or actively
moving it, which is atraditional approach.
And I think that that's alittle bit unique and I know
some people do that.
But I think that, from whatI've seen, your approach is

(35:05):
subtly different in a good way.

Alanna (35:07):
Thank you, I think so.
My goal is as a massagetherapist.
People just want to be on thetable.
They want your hands on as muchas possible.
Not a lot of people come intomy room and are willing to do a
bunch of sort of nervous systemdrills in order to see what
feels better or not, at leastnot until they've bought into

(35:29):
the concept.
So there's some of this thesort of applied neurology is
what people term it and there'strainers out there that do this,
but it's more physical trainers, physiotherapists, that kind of
stuff, and so it's a lot ofworking with athletes or working
with people in an off-the-tableway.
I want this stuff to be.

(35:50):
You know, if I do an eyeexercise on the table, it takes
me 30 seconds of not hands-onwork and really I still have one
hand because I'm holding theirhead still and I can do a little
nice whatever gout massagemaybe, but it's integrated.
So often what I'll do is I'llsay, okay, we don't seem to be
making very good change with myhands and with movement and with

(36:11):
breath.
So are you interested in tryingsomething different?
And usually people say yes,maybe because they're just being
nice or maybe because theythink I know what I'm talking
about If I say, okay, let's justtry this eye exercise and see
if that changes.
Specifically, I'm almost alwaysstarting this with

(36:35):
suboccipitals, because thesuboccipitals are so connected
to the way we move our head, inresponse to the way we move our
eyes.
I'm not making change with myhands.
This is still sore for you.
We don't seem to be gettingmuch better.
Let's try an eye exercise.
I try an eye exercise and thenI go back and repalpate and I
say does that feel better, sameor worse?
And I love that phrase Ilearned that on your course
because I think it allows peopleto say actually that's terrible
, that got worse or no, yeah, itfeels exactly the same with

(36:57):
that specific suboccipitals andeye exercises.
I'd say this is not research.
Anecdotally, 80% of the timepeople go wow, that's way better
after I've been working on itfor five minutes trying to get
change happening.
So what I try to do in thecourse is emphasize ways that

(37:20):
you can include this in yourtreatments.
You're not going to getsomebody up off the table.
They're not clothed.
You can get somebody up off thetable to try something, so do
it in your treatment.
And then the other thing that Ithink that I do.
That's unique is, instead ofemphasizing, this nerve works
with this nerve, and if you'retrying to benefit, trying to
benefit the balance, make sureyou're always doing eye stuff

(37:42):
Okay Maybe, and that's a greatplace to start, but really, if
their nervous system feelsbetter, we'll notice a change.
They'll notice a change.
So is it better?
Did it work?
And sometimes they're like nope, and I got to go try something
else or say okay, let's justkeep massaging, we'll do what we
can, and then maybe nextsession we'll try something else
.

Eric (38:03):
And I love how you use better same worse.
I don't think I made that up, Ithink I got that from somebody
that just really resonated withme, so whether it was a course
or a colleague, I can't remember.
But the better same worse, Ithink is great, because so often
what happens when we're doingsomething with people and we're
trying to elicit or inspirechange in the person, how does

(38:23):
that feel?

Alanna (38:24):
Yeah.

Eric (38:25):
It's usually this kind of yes, no type thing or good, bad
type thing.
It's just very black and whiteand I think that's not giving an
option to say nothing or to letyou know that it's feeling
worse.
I think you better say more.
You should give them thatoption.
These are three things.
This is what it could be.

Alanna (38:40):
Absolutely.
I think it reduces the powerdynamic between you and your
patient.
I think, especially for me,because I really I deal with
people who have very elevatednervous systems, very sensitive
nervous systems, and somethingthat quote unquote should work
on them sometimes just doesn't,and I need to know that so that
I don't send them off into therest of their day actually

(39:01):
feeling provoked and in pain.
One of the questions I askoften with people is do you ever
feel worse after massage?
And when it's the first timeI'm treating somebody, have you
ever felt worse after massage?
And at the start it shocked mehow many people said, yes, yeah,
like you could be sore for 24to 48 hours because I dug my
elbow into your glutes for 15minutes.

(39:23):
But I had somebody say, oh yeah, I made sure I had leftovers
prepped for supper tonight.
There's no way I could go homeand cook a meal.
I'll be fatigued for days.
And then I say why are yougetting massage pens?
Like what?
Why?
And often people will say, well, it's good for me, right.
Why?
And often people will say, well, it's good for me, right?

(39:43):
I'm like, is it Like doesn'tsound like it's good for you,
but maybe we could try workingdifferently so that you don't
feel like that after massage.

Eric (39:49):
There's this kind of social, cultural belief that we
have about massage and how itusually has to hurt to feel
better, or people need to feelit.
They need to feel that sorenessor that fatigue after, and
that's a belief and there's noevidence to support that.

(40:10):
That's just what people thinkand it's perpetuated, I believe,
by our profession, where italmost validates us.
Oh yeah, like I really dug myelbows in there and, yeah, you
were sore, weren't you?
It's the sense of pride andthat's a narrative that I think
we really need to move away from, because I don't think it's
helpful for a lot of people,particularly for people that are

(40:32):
suffering and in chronic pain.
There's different strokes fordifferent folks.
There's certain people.
Yeah, if you're going to treatsome athlete who really believes
and wants that elbows rippingthrough their hamstrings and
that's what works for them andthat doesn't impact them in a
negative way, then why would yousay no?
Okay, sure, if that's going towork for you and if they don't

(40:54):
want to do a different approach,that's fine.
But if someone's suffering, ifsomeone's living in pain every
day, or they're in extremestress or whatever it might be,
and we go in there and we givethem a massage which is just so
overstimulating to their systemthat they feel pain after they
feel exhausted, after.
That's not a good thing,despite some people might be

(41:16):
listening, thinking you knowwhat you're talking about.
Well, you're just making thatup because there's no evidence
to support that that's what youshould be doing.
Yeah, it might work for somepeople.
Some of that should not be thego-to okay.
My experience as well say thatwe're working with people that
are hurting a lot.

Alanna (41:32):
That's the last thing you should be doing for them,
because it doesn't make you feelgood, I have this conversation
a lot because people will cometo me and I found this with.
So I had this.
Just a couple of weeks ago thiswoman came to me and I had
treated her a couple of timesbefore and then she'd sort of
disappeared and she was back andshe was seeing one of the
chiropractors I work with and hehad asked her you know, what

(41:54):
other kind of treatment do youdo?
And she said I get deep tissuemassages.
And he said how does that feel?
And she said well, I don't geta lot of change from them.
We said maybe you should trysomething else.
Why don't you go see Helena?
And she'd already seen me, soshe knew a little bit of what I
did and I probably didn't giveher enough pressure when I first
saw her for her.
So she came in and I could youknow, I know you tend to like

(42:24):
deep tissue massage.
Here's my, my.
Obviously deep tissue is awhole other thing.

Eric (42:27):
Like you can be whatever without necessarily injuring
people it's this really weirdterms again that's used but
there's no standard definitionfor it and it's another term
that I think.
Anyway, it's a whole otherconversation.
I agree with you that should bereally reevaluated and there
should be a phrase.
For what that?
No one even knows, what thatmeans.

Alanna (42:47):
I'm touching your skin Like I'm not touching your
multifidus, right, let's lay itall down.
But in any case, so I said toher, here's my perspective.
I don't think my hands aresquishing tension out of your
muscles.
I think when we get change,it's because your nervous system
allows it.
I think the nervous system getschanged better and we keep it
for longer when it feels safe.
So I don't use pain arbitrarilyin my treatments.

(43:08):
I never want you gritting yourteeth and curling up your toes
and hoping I'm going to stopdoing what I'm doing real soon.
I know you want to feel this,you want to feel something, and
I think there are a whole groupof people and her stress was
very high.
I think there are a whole groupof people who are asking for
that level of sensation becauseit's what they need to overwhelm

(43:29):
the rumination or the.
They need something that makestheir brain stop.
And so I think for some peopleand like I had my friend who was
treating in school with thedepression she said I spend so
much time feeling completelydead.
Nothing, she goes, I just wantto feel something.
And I was like OK, like we havea purpose for this.

(43:49):
So let's explore how muchpressure it takes for you to
feel connected to your body.
So I had a conversation withthis woman.
I said what do you like aboutdeep tissue massage or having
that deep pressure?
And she said I feel like I needthat to get the knots out.
And I said does it help?
And she said sometimes.
And I said OK, when.
What do you think's going onwhen it doesn't help?
And she said when the therapistis like telling me a lot about

(44:12):
their life and talking a lot,and then I don't feel like it's
really helpful.
And so I said do you feel likesomething's being done to you as
opposed to with you?
And she said yeah.
I said I think what you need isintention.
What if we work together tofind a level of sensation where
you feel like I am payingattention to your body and I'm
being deliberate with the amountof pressure?

(44:34):
She said yeah, okay.
So we experimented with a littlebit.
I used really like firmpressure with her, but not in a
way that I couldn't tell whatwas happening with the tissue.
She's not tensing up against it.
She fell asleep at one pointand then afterwards I said OK,
how'd you feel Like?

(44:54):
Was that enough pressure foryou?
Did you spend the whole massagegoing?
Oh man, I wish you'd workharder.
She said no, she's like I feelgreat.
I said OK.
So maybe we need a sense of.
Maybe it's more about thepacing than the pressure, maybe
it's more about intention can bealso that sort of metaphysical
thing.
But you want to feel like I amdeliberate in my engagement with

(45:17):
your body.
I can do that.

Eric (45:20):
That's such a key point there, that deliberate, you're
focusing on what you're doing.
You're focusing on what you'redoing and this is something that
I see and hear a lot just fromteaching and having
conversations with people isthat they mistake when I, if I
say something like it doesn'tneed to, you shouldn't have to
hurt somebody to be helpful,they think that, oh it just your
treatment should be soft andthat's.

(45:41):
I've never said that.
I jokingly use TPM liketouching people nicely, making
them feel good, but that can beheavier and air quotes that can
be more forceful if that's whatworks for that person on that
day.
But it's this idea that we havethat deeper is better, more

(46:04):
aggressive can be better, orthese ideas that we need to work
knots out or we need to breakthings down, and I see this all
the time in courses and atconferences and you see all over
social media and people arehaving the same conversations
for the last 30 years that theyjust it's all this kind of this
is what I think.
This is all this belief.
But if we look at understandingthe evidence and what massage

(46:26):
or manual therapy does versusdoesn't do, and we look at some
of those interoceptive ideas, werealize that we can't talked
about being principles overprotocols.
So if we understand theprinciples of working in, let's
say, trauma, or working insafety, or working with

(46:53):
intentional or focused depth andspeed, and those are just
principles that we can workunder, rather than this is the
protocol I have to follow inorder to be effective, that is
such a shift that I really wishthat more of us were having,
like those conversations I wishmore of us were having in the
profession.
Because if you understand theknowledge and the principles,

(47:17):
then it's up to you and this isall a purpose of evidence-based
practice it's up to you to takethe stuff and figure out how do
I apply this with the person infront of me today.

Alanna (47:28):
And I think that with the person in front of me today
and I think that with the personin front of me today is so key
I think a lot of.
And what I try to get to in mycourse is this course should
make you more confident.
This course should give you theconfidence to say to somebody
is that better, same or worse?
Because if they tell you it'sbetter, and especially if you
can also see that in theirdemeanor or in their breathing
or in how the tissue actuallyfeels Because of course we do

(47:48):
feel tissue change it's just notbecause I dug my elbow into a
knot and destroyed it.
But if I'm asking the person,how does this feel to you?
I'm confident enough for themto say bad.
And then I go, ok, do you wantto try something else?
Like maybe we could do this ormaybe we could do that.
I had one guy it was like he wasreferred to me by another RMT

(48:11):
that I know and it was probably53 minutes out of 60 minutes.
How does this feel Worse?
How does this feel Worse?
What if we try this Worse?
What if we try this Worse?
And I was like, oh, so bad.
And then in the end he told mehe had lots of jaw tension.
I said if you want to trysomething on the face, that's
just a little bit more relaxing.
He said, sure, worked on hisface, for a little bit

(48:37):
Everything felt better.
Was his jaw responsible for hiship and his shoulder tension?
No, well, maybe I don't know,but his nervous system was
connected to this incredibletension he had in his face and
jaw and when that resolved,changed whatever everything else
was like.
The pain just went downeverywhere in his body.

Eric (48:53):
I went.

Alanna (48:53):
I could have just given you a scalp massage for 50
minutes and saved my body, andyou would have felt the pain for
the end of this.
But I think we don't askbecause complexity scares us,
because we don't have the toolsto deal with complexity and
that's what I want to get towith people is complexity
doesn't have to scare youBecause, first of all, mostly we
just don't know anything Like.

(49:14):
We think we're doing this andwe're really doing something
else.
We don't know, like you say,does it work for the reasons you
think it works?
Maybe we should forget aboutthe reasons we think it works
and just try some stuff.
So complexity doesn't need tobe scary if you honor the person
in front of you and say what doyou need today?

Eric (49:33):
Yeah.

Alanna (49:34):
Does this feel better?
And that's where I'm reallyinto.
One of the questions you askedin the pre-chat or in that email
was like what's theconsequences of not knowing this
information?
And so I think we have thatboth from like a more global.
I think everyone is sodysregulated right now.
Everyone is so angry andstressed and worried and scared,

(49:56):
and if we can get just a littlebit of change into the nervous
system, those little breaks fromthe stress response actually
matter.
Our stress responses are greatat stress, relax, stress, relax,
stress, relax.
We're very, very bad at stress,stress, stress, stress, stress,
stress, stress and living inthat.
So I think the consequences forthe public of not knowing this

(50:18):
information is we persist in areally awful, scary state in our
nervous system.
For massage therapists, I thinkthe consequences of not knowing
this information is we never goto the real questions.
We never go to the complexity.
So the people who show up withall the autoimmune things going
on, all the inflammatory stuffgoing on, we're just like, well,

(50:40):
I'm just not going to ask abouttheir digestion because I can't
do anything about that anyway.
But then if we understand thenervous system from a basic
perspective, there's tons youcan do to help people with these
symptoms if you're willing toget creative exploratory.
But really it's so simple.
Is this better for you?
Do you feel any better?

(51:00):
Is your pain better?
Is your movement better?
How do you feel post-massage?

Eric (51:04):
Yeah, Going back to what you said earlier about how do
you know what you know and wheredoes your knowledge come from
and avoid making logical leaps.
I love that because that'sbasically regurgitating what
that is.

Alanna (51:17):
It's so great when somebody says your stuff back.

Eric (51:19):
Yeah, it's great, as long as it comes back to the right
context.
A lot of times things come back.
I did say that, but you'vetaken it.

Alanna (51:24):
Yeah, yeah.

Eric (51:25):
Anyway, it can be good when it's good, it can be bad
when it's bad.
But what I like, what you'resaying too, is using that
patient example with you were onthe guy for a long time and it
wasn't until you worked on hisjaw and then felt better.
And sometimes we don't know, wedon't know why something worked
.
But I think that when we havethe knowledge and we understand
just at the basic level, pain ismultifactorial, pain is

(51:49):
understand just at the basiclevel.
Pain is multifactorial.
Pain is complex.
People hurt.
When someone hurts, there'ssomething going on in their
nociceptive system ornociceptive apparatus, depending
on who or what.
You read same idea and theperson experiences pain.
Why is it that I can work ontheir jaw and their head and
their back pain goes away.
Now the logical leap or theillogical leap that kind of a

(52:10):
lot of people make is oh well,there's some connection there.
There's this mechanicalconnection between your low back
and your jaw or your shoulder,and people make these huge
connections between these thingsthat don't exist, because you
could say that your baby toe isconnected to your left earlobe
well, as long as it's your rightbaby toe, then that's correct.

(52:30):
Yeah, sarcasm like yeah, yeah, Iget it, but you can say you can
make any of these things, butpeople will do, they'll make
these big leaps, these bigthings to try to understand.
And that's I think we're.
And I used to get really angry,so I get so frustrated because
people make up these things.
I think, well, no, that's you,that's, you're just making shit
up.
But I've gotten to the pointnow where people are making
stuff up to try to make sense ofwhat they see.

Alanna (52:52):
Yes.

Eric (52:52):
And it's just, it's a process and this is our
profession.
All the different modalities,all the different techniques,
all the different acronyms thatare out, there are people who
have seen things clinically andhave tried and have kind of put
together a story to try and makesense of it.

Alanna (53:09):
And you know why?
It's because their nervoussystem doesn't feel safe.
Uncertainty is a math of crisisfor our brain, and so we're all
going to go to explain it,understand it, reduce the
uncertainty so that I have ablack and white thing to put
this in because our brain hatesuncertainty.
And so there's some of thisthat you like.

(53:34):
The nuance in this is to golike maybe it's working for the
reason that you think it'sworking, and as long as you're
not telling people you need tocome and see me once a week to
work on your jaw so that yourankle is better, then I don't
really care what you believeabout how it's working, as long
as you're not giving peopleharmful messages about their
body or selling treatments basedon this faulty premise.
What I like to say is I don'treally know why this connects.

(53:56):
Here's what I think might behappening, and I had this happen
with a guy the other day.
This was so funny he's so.
He's a longtime client of mine.
I've seen him lots.
He came in with back pain.
I've never worked on his jawbefore because he's never had
any jaw issues, but I do.
Everybody gets like face at theend of a treatment relaxing
stuff.
So we've done some direct workaround the hip and the back and

(54:17):
blah, blah, blah.
And so at the end I'm workingon his face, I run my fingers
down his mass or his both sides,he goes oh yeah, man, my jaw
has been so sore and I said tellme about it.
He goes started the same day asmy back pain.
I'm like, oh interesting.
I said he's, I'm going to thedentist on Monday.
That's as soon as I can get in.
This was like a Wednesday orsomething.

(54:39):
I said do you want me to take alook at this right now?
And he looks at me and I gothis is I did get actual consent
from him.
But I turn around, put a gloveon, turn around with a glove on
my hand and I go open up and helooks at me.
He goes okay, I mean, we'veknown each other for a while now
, so there's some trust here.
Well, we've never done whatever.
This is what this is.

(55:01):
I'm going to fish, hook yourface and it's going to feel good
.
And he's okay.
Again, we've known each otherfor a while, so we've got some
trust.
And I said okay.
Then I explained it and I gotactual consent from him.
So I did this technique I useall the time.
I hang onto this cheek hook forlike 90 seconds and I finish.
I'm like what was that?
Like he looks at me.
He goes that was weird.

(55:21):
I felt that in my back.
I'm like that's not weird, butagain, I'm not going to try and
tell you like why.
Or I'm like so there's aconnection, and she goes yeah,
it felt like my body was tellingme that something about my jaw
is something about my back andI'm like okay, cool, let's make
sure the jaw feels great beforeyou leave and I'll give you some
tools to keep this going andsee you next time.

(55:43):
But it was fun.

Eric (55:45):
Yeah, I like that.
There's that connection that'sbeing felt, that's being noticed
, but it's not being sold assomething that's not.
We're like we don't really know, and so many times we don't
know why things, why someonehurts in one area, or why you
work on something and they feelit somewhere else and we don't.
I don't think there's a goodanswer for that.
But what we do know and this issomething that I'm sure you'll

(56:06):
cover, I'm sure when you get abigger course, because stuff I
always try to cover is that ifyou have pain in one area, it's
a risk-backdriving pain.
In another area, it's like achronic thing.
If you have chronic,nonspecific low back pain which
that's a term which, whatever,some people might not like or
not, but we have pain in yourlow back, we're not sure what
the causative thing is.
Sure what the causative thingis, you're more likely to have
pain somewhere else.
Yep, and jaw pain is a commonthing.

(56:29):
So common things are common fora reason because they're common
.

Alanna (56:34):
Yeah.

Eric (56:34):
I have this physician friend that said to me before
and they said that the firstrule of when you see a client at
least what they were telling mewas that you're looking for the
common things, because that'smost likely what it is.
If it doesn't seem common,that's when you start to
investigate and say maybesomething more serious, the idea
that, yeah, you've got pain inone area and pain in multiple
areas that maybe don't seemdirectly connected.

(56:56):
That's fine, because we know ifyou are susceptible to having
pain in an area, you're morelikely to have pain in a
different area, and that'snormal.
The thing that's not normal istrying to sell treatments on
these connections that don'texist.
And one thing I always teach inin in my classes I just did a
this upon recording a few daysago I spoke at a conference for

(57:17):
nhpc and the digital conferenceand one thing I was talking
about was it was a course oncrying pain and basically
talking about all the differentpain mechanisms or the
nociceptive mechanisms, and whenwe understand those so speaking
of nervous system stuff when weunderstand, have a better idea
of how those mechanisms work andhow they influence our overall

(57:39):
system, it helps to make moresense about why people have
these pain experiences inmultiple areas?
Because a lot of the pain stuffout there could be from some
type of neuroinflammatory thingcoming from your nervous system.
Neuroinflammatory and this can,for some reason, can manifest

(57:59):
as sensitizing nociceptors invarious parts of the body where
things might already be more.
Those nociceptors might be moresensitive to external stimuli
or internal stimuli.
So we understand that.

Alanna (58:09):
It helps to make sense Like, oh okay that's a way less
wrong understanding than somemechanical connection.
Yeah, and so your jaw pain isconnected to your back pain, but
it doesn't have to be.
I don't have to go hunting foran explanation that's structural
or biomechanical, and theremight be one, but I don't have
to go in and find it or pretendthat I know.
Yeah, we have time for one morestory.

Eric (58:32):
One more story, yep.

Alanna (58:34):
One more story.
Okay, on that note that painmagnifies other pain.
I had a really interestingexperience with someone the
other day.
She had come to see me onrecommendation from somebody
else and she's a chronic painpatient.
She has endometriosis and soshe has what's been diagnosed or
told to her as a pudendal nerveentrapment.
So she has this groin andgenital pain all the time.

(58:54):
She also has this chronic painin her leg.
She fell and hit her leg onsomething in 2019.
And so there's nothingstructurally wrong.
Everything is quote unquotehealed, but that pain is there
all the time.
So she came in.
The pain in the leg was sevenout of 10, pudendal nerve pain
was four out of 10.
And she's someone who has feltworse after massage.

(59:14):
She said I used to just go andI would get massage and I just
it was.
The whole thing was bad andpainful and I felt so bad
afterwards and I was like weface, I was working on her jaw.
I did one side and she saidthat actually feels really nice.
I did the other side and thisis the lady who's.
We have to stop that giving mesharp pains and it's hurting my
leg and I said, okay.
So without that understandingof the nociceptive system and

(59:37):
how this chronic pain ismanifesting.
I might've gone oh my gosh, Ican't touch your jaw now because
I'm making things worse andthis is connected to your leg.
But I went.
Okay, we got to calm down thissystem.
So I took my hand out of hermouth and did a bunch of like
nice face trigeminal nervestimulus.
It felt really good.
I said how's that feeling inthe leg?
She said better, yeah, and theface feels better.

(59:58):
I said, okay, let's go work onthe leg directly.
And so I tried some basicallyjust still compressions around
the leg.
This is feeling okay.
Yeah, this is feeling fine.
I said what does nice touchfeel like to you?
And she said I think it wouldbe fine.
And so I was doing the like theC tactile, affective touch stuff
, basically just lotion, freeeffleurage, this stroking that

(01:00:19):
is connected to more limbicsystem structures than
necessarily the same painprocessing as everything else
has, and I just I did it for acouple minutes.
I said what does that feel like?
And she said I don't know.
And I said, okay, is it bad?
And she said no, and then shestarted crying and she said I
don't get a lot of human touch.
I said okay, is it okay if Ikeep doing this for a while?

(01:00:40):
And she said yeah.
So I basically stroked her legfor 10 minutes and then I worked
on her feet a little bit andfinished up with a scalp massage
, whatever, and then I left.
I came back in I said how areyou feeling?
She said good, she goes.
The leg is like four out of 10and it feels almost numb Like I
iced it.
She said the pudendal nervepain is gone.
I've had that nerve pain sinceI was 26.

(01:01:02):
And, without being too like, Iwas like you know it's going to
come back.
Right, we didn't just fix 26years of chronic pain by being
nice to your leg, but she got.
When I saw her next, I said howlong did that relief last?
And she goes oh, like two days.
And I'm thinking, oh my God,that's horrible.
She only got two days of relief,but for her that was two days
that she didn't have that samelevel of chronic pain and she

(01:01:25):
knew that it was possible tofeel better in her body.
And I mean there's anotherexample of I was reading this
research paper on the C-tactilesystem and how cool it is and I
was like I'm going to starttrying this in my treatments and
for her, super effective.
She might come back anothertime and we might try the same
thing and it might be reallyaggravating.
So I have to be ready to sayhow does this feel to you today?

(01:01:47):
Try the same thing and it mightbe really aggravating.
So I have to be ready to sayhow does this feel to you today?
Maybe that nerve feels morelike superficial irritation and
not like light stroking, isfeeling really burny and I got
it back off of it.
So, anyway, that's the kind ofstuff that I just I'm so excited
about, because when somebodywalks out feeling like she just
she looked like a differentperson when she walked out that
relief was so evident.
And that's what I live for,that's what I'm all about.

Eric (01:02:08):
Yeah, that's a great story , alana, and thanks for sharing
that.
It's a good way to end this.
I think it's a really good wayto emphasize that nervous system
understanding and working withkind of neurophysiology and the
human focus rather than thetissue focus.
I think it's such a powerfulmessage, so thanks for that,

(01:02:28):
thanks for being here today.
We didn't get a chance to talkabout the silly videos they
watch at the massage worldmassage championships, but maybe
we'll have to do that next time, because that is definitely
worthy of a discussion and somelaughs.
Some of the things we saw onthat one.

Alanna (01:02:44):
Absolutely.
There's so much weird stuff outthere.
Yeah, there's a lot of weirdstuff out there.

Eric (01:02:51):
Yeah, so, anyway.
So thanks a lot for that today.
It's great we will see you orhopefully people will see you on
October 5th at 10, 15 amPacific.
On rewiring safety massagetherapy for nervous system
regulation for the second annualknowledge summit.
So that'll be fun.

(01:03:15):
And looking forward to thatuntil next time.
Yes, thank you so much.
Thank you.
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