September 18, 2025 • 43 mins
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Eric (00:13):
Hello and welcome to Massage Science.
My name is Eric Purvis.
I'm a course creator, educatorand advocate for evidence-based
care in the massage and manualtherapy professions.
This is the third episode in myKnowledge Summit series.
I will be hosting this one-dayonline conference live over Zoom
on October the 5th.
This conference will featurefive presenters from across
Canada and the United Kingdomwho will be sharing their
(00:35):
knowledge and clinical insightson a variety of topics relevant
to the massage and manualtherapy professions.
Today's episode is with MeganMounts.
Her presentation is titled MoveThrough Cancer the role of
exercise and treatment inrecovery.
Today, we will discuss some ofthe content you can expect
during her presentation, andshe'll also be sharing some of
her personal insights into herexperience as a cancer survivor.
(00:58):
For more information and alsoto register, please visit my
website, thecebecom.
I am also excited to announcethat my company and this podcast
now has an official sponsor.
I'm excited to be partneringwith Notero.
They are a Canadian companytrusted by thousands of
healthcare professionals acrossvarious disciplines.
Notero has been dedicated toserving the healthcare community
(01:19):
for 12 years with acomprehensive suite of features
like charting, scheduling,billing and the new Notero Go Go
is tailored for mobilepractitioners, streamlining
workflows and helpingpractitioners run their business
more efficiently.
Visit noterocom slash C-E-B-Eto start your extended 44-day
trial.
That is N-O-T-E-R-O dot comslash C-E-B-E.
(01:44):
Now let's begin this episode.
Hello everybody, and welcome toanother episode of Massage
Science.
I'm excited to welcome thepride of Cedar BC today, megan
Mount.
So, megan, thanks for beinghere.
Meaghan (02:04):
Thanks for having me Super excited.
Eric (02:07):
This is gonna be another episode in the series on the
promoting the upcoming knowledgesummit, which is on October 5th
.
Megan is presenting her onehour webinar called move through
cancer the role of exercise intreatment and recovery.
Megan also has a mini course, amini self-directed workshop, on
my website as well, but she'sgoing to be presenting I'm
(02:27):
assuming, similar material liveon October 5th.
Thanks for being here, Megan.
Why don't you just telleverybody a little bit about you
?
Meaghan (02:35):
Yeah for sure.
Thanks for having me.
So I live in Cedar BC, which isa small community, I guess, on
the south side of Nanaimo.
I live with my husband, sean,who's great and I still really
like him a lot, and our daughter, eva.
She's eight years old.
We also have a dog who issnoring right next to me, so
hopefully you can't hear that onhere.
(02:55):
We spend a lot of time outdoors.
We are living on VancouverIsland.
It's pretty incredible fordoing any sort of outdoor,
year-round outdoor activity.
So we go mountain biking, weboat, we have a cabin on a small
island near Nanaimo, so prettylucky.
My history, I guess.
I graduated from VancouverIsland University 20 years ago
(03:20):
this year with a Bachelor ofScience, majored in biology.
Ago this year with a Bachelor ofScience, majored in biology,
and that was the time when yougraduated with a science degree
and there was no jobs, andperhaps that's still the case,
but at that point in time therewas like almost nothing to get a
full-time job in.
I did a couple contract jobs formarine biology work but quickly
(03:45):
realized that I needed to dosomething different.
So I moved to Victoria andbecame a personal trainer and
group fitness instructor andjust absolutely fell in love
with working in the fitnessindustry so have been in that
kind of work for almost 20 yearsas well.
And then from I realized I justwanted to help people a bit
more and discovered that therewas a massage therapy college in
(04:08):
Victoria.
So I took the 3,000 hour RMTprogram from West Coast College
Massage Therapy and have been amassage therapist for almost 15
years now and I massaged fulltime for a number of years and
now just massage very part timeand I also teach group fitness
(04:32):
classes but do some other workoutside of massage but still
have my hands in there.
Eric (04:38):
No pun intended.
Meaghan (04:39):
No pun intended.
Eric (04:41):
Or maybe there was a pun intended.
You do have a contract.
Your full-time job is with oneof the territories that's right.
Meaghan (04:48):
Yeah, my husband and I lived in the territory of
Nunavut for just over a year forhis work and when we moved up
there I started there as amassage therapist and
volunteered at the gym teachingclasses.
But decided to use my biologydegree finally and got a job
with the government of Nunavutup there and made some good
(05:08):
friends.
And then when we returned homea few years later, those friends
had started their ownconsulting company and asked me
if I would help them on aproject.
That project has turned into avery full-time work, so I do a
variety of things in supportingthe government of Nunavut and
Inuit organizations andassociations in Nunavut.
(05:30):
Very random things to drill in.
Eric (05:33):
Cedar.
So I think it's such a neatthing as a neat job and sounds
like obviously very important,but it's really interesting that
you can do that from way downhere.
Meaghan (05:43):
Way down south, way down southern provinces super
interesting.
Eric (05:48):
I feel like I learned something new every day, which
is amazing one thing that oftencomes up too, I find with
conversations I have withmassage therapists is so many
people feel like it's I shouldsay I shouldn't say so many, but
there's a good number of peoplethat feel that they don't know
what else to do.
Yeah, yeah, and I always saythere's so many other options
out there.
But really if you don't have adegree or training it doesn't
(06:09):
have to be a degree, but ourtraining is something else Then,
yeah, your options are limitedto pretty much just massage.
But the fact that you had thatundergrad degree really helped
to nail down this other job, soyou can.
But you can still have your punintended hands into the massage
world and you've got yourfitness training so it can give
you a few different ways ofworking and expressing your
(06:30):
creative side or with your doingwork for meaningful
organizations or helping peoplecreating or doing exercise plans
and fitness training.
I think it's great, and I alwayssay that it's important, I
think, for us as a profession torealize that.
You may feel some people mayfeel like there's I'm stuck, I
can only do massage therapy, sothere's all kinds of stuff you
(06:51):
can do.
You just got to explore it.
It may not be as wide in termsof options as you would get with
, say, like physiotherapy, whereyou could take like an
extremely academic route, or youcan do research or you work in
hospitals or care homes or thosekind of things.
We don't necessarily have thatsame career trajectory, but I
think it's great to hear storieslike your own, where you're
(07:12):
like yeah, I was an RMT and nowI'm working for the government,
I'm still massaging a little bitand still doing some fitness
stuff.
I think it's great.
I think it should be inspiringto people that are listening
yeah, I think too.
Meaghan (07:23):
I always wondered.
I remember when I started mymassage, the massage therapy
college, going to school there,I was like oh, what a waste of
time I did for my biology degree.
Like why did I take this?
But I think, looking back, itwas probably one of the best
decisions I made.
Honestly, it made me a betterstudent for the massage therapy
program, but also I've had somany opportunities because of it
(07:46):
, even though I didn't havemaybe some right away yeah,
that's a really important point,I think, to make.
Eric (07:52):
I went to UVic and I graduated 24 years ago.
That's a little bit older thanyou.
I remember speaking with myuncle on my mom's side.
He said to me when you do yourundergraduate degree, it's not
going to teach you how to get ajob, it's going to teach you how
to learn, and you're going tolearn more about yourself.
How do you learn?
(08:13):
How do you prioritize your time?
How do you function withdeadlines?
It teaches you all these lifeskills which you can only get
from going to university.
That was his and that alwaysstuck with me.
At the time I was like unclewayne, whatever.
But as the years went on, likeI kept on hearing that and again
and again.
And actually funny, he workedfor the nunavut government for
(08:34):
years.
Oh crazy, yeah, he was up there.
He worked up in rank and inletand oh yeah, uh, kaglaktuk yeah,
amazing, I'm saying that yeah,yeah he
worked up there for years.
I always wanted to go visit himbut it was actually more
expensive to fly up there thanit was to fly to Australia, oh
yes, or the farthest points ofthe world.
It was so far and so expensive.
It was more expensive to fly upthere.
(08:55):
Yeah, definitely is, but thatjust.
Maybe we're off topic.
I don't know topic, I don'tknow.
We'll see where this goes, butthe I just wanted to talk a bit
more about that, about you wentand had your undergraduate
degree and it teaches you how tolearn, yeah, and made you
better rmt student.
I felt the same way too, and Ithink a lot of people that were
that really did really well,like some people obviously just
were young and just like, wentright out to school and they
(09:17):
were just, they had the energy,they had the time and they were
focused.
They did great too.
But I did find that people thathad a little bit of education
it was a much easier process togo through massage school just
because you learned how to learn, how to prioritize what was
important, what wasn't important, and you don't have to have a
degree to do that, but it helps100%.
Meaghan (09:36):
I totally agree with you.
Eric (09:38):
I had the same.
I had the same thoughts too,about the.
When I was in massage school Ithought I'm gonna get finish
this, I'm gonna have a job likeI'm gonna make money, it's gonna
be great.
I remember thinking why did Ispent four years university?
yeah but then, after working fora decade ish, I went back to
university to do my master'sdegree.
I was so thankful I had thatundergrad because I couldn't
(10:00):
have done a master's without it,and of course, that opens up
other doors.
Yeah, I think you're never tooold to learn.
No I think I was 4041.
I think it was 41 when Igraduated with my master's
degree.
Meaghan (10:12):
Amazing.
Yeah, I have contemplated goingback to school Again too,
because I love learning, but yes, it's a bit of a step at this
age.
Eric (10:21):
I know, as we get older becomes a little less.
You know you're like well, Igot my kids and I want to spend
another two, three, four, fiveyears back in school.
Yeah, what would you do if youcould go back?
Or if you were going to go nowand there was like no barriers
and you go back, what would youdo?
Meaghan (10:38):
Oh, this is a great question.
I would probably.
My dream actually was before,when I was taking my biology
degree, I was planning to gointo physiotherapy.
That was my dream, so I think Iwould probably go somewhere
along that route, but maybe moreon the academic side, like
research or or teaching orsomething I don't know.
I did teach at the massagetherapy college in Victoria for
(11:01):
a few years and I really enjoyedthat.
So I don't know I would be.
I would enjoy doing somethinglike that.
I feel like, yeah, I thinkyou'd be great at it.
Eric (11:11):
We'll see.
Yeah, we'll see.
We'll see.
Yeah, I'm biased.
Teaching's fun.
I love teaching, I love andtalking to people about stuff
that I find interesting.
Meaghan (11:20):
So if you have that interest, go with it.
Eric (11:25):
Yeah, and PT, the, the pts , and that's one thing that I
really wish that we had in ourprofession.
I wish we had that academic likeprogression and I know there's
a lot of people that probablyaren't for that, because they
think it becomes a bit of thisdegree creep where you have to
keep on going to university andthere's a lot of great
therapists that don't haveuniversity degrees.
I totally agree there's.
You don't have to haveuniversity degree to be a great
(11:47):
massage or manual therapist.
I think that for those of usand there's many of us that
would appreciate or would enjoythat academic progression, like
PTs, it really would be ideal.
Yesterday, funny enough, I hada meeting with a researcher who
works at BC Children's Hospital.
Okay, she's a partner with UBC,wow, and she's a PT PhD and the
(12:11):
soccer my soccer team that Icoach, we're part of her
research project and she's doingsomething across the island in
the lower mainland and she'sdoing it on injury prevention
for on injury preventionprotocols for female youth,
right, which is what I coach, Icoach and I just we had this
great conversation yesterday.
I was so excited to talk to herand she was really excited to
(12:31):
share her stuff and I thoughtdifferent life.
Yeah, again, you're like that'sthe kind of stuff I would love
to, because she's doing thingson like acl prevention and rehab
and all the stuff, because it'sa huge problem in female sports
, particularly soccer knees,hips, ankles and I was so
inspired talking to her.
I'm so excited to be part ofthis thing.
That's super cool.
Yeah, yeah, that's awesome.
(12:51):
Sign us up.
Yeah, the team.
They have to consent, but Ivoluntold everyone part of next
year.
You don't have to if you wantto, but I really think you
should so yeah, amazing coolstuff.
Meaghan (13:02):
Yeah, science anyway.
Eric (13:04):
So you've been practicing for a while and what have been
some of the, what are some ofthe changes that you've seen in
the profession during your14-ish years?
Yeah, that's a good question,or have you seen any?
I don't know.
Meaghan (13:19):
I think honestly.
I was thinking back of when itmakes me think of back when we
were in school and it wasn'tvery I don't want to bash any
schools or anything, but I feellike it was.
There was not a lot of likeevidence-based, maybe,
curriculum, and I don't know howthe schools have progressed
since then or if they have atall.
(13:41):
But I do feel like massagetherapists are leaning towards
learning more information frompeople that have more an
evidence-based background orsourcing out that kind of
material anyways, and I alsothink that's a big one that I
feel like a lot of theprofession has moved to.
If you look at the Facebookgroups and everyone's, does
(14:02):
anyone have an evidence-basedcourse on this or something like
that?
And maybe it's just a termthat's used, overused, I don't
know, but I do feel like peopleare more interested in learning
the actual facts aboutinformation, less maybe about
the modalities that we, thehands-on modalities that were
(14:25):
shown in school.
Eric (14:27):
I would agree in some ways .
I think in BC I can.
Meaghan (14:33):
Yeah, I'm speaking from BCc, I don't know.
Eric (14:34):
Yeah, I would say and I don't want to say go to bc, I
don't want to be too bc centric,but I think the just that's
where we are and that's where weget most of our most
information.
We're exposed to an interactionwith the profession is in bc.
I would say.
Here there's definitely thisinterest, this curiosity, I can
say this evidence-based, curiouskind of ideas that are starting
(14:55):
to percolate through theprofession.
But I do agree that it's anoverused term where people will
use it.
But they use it and they'll useit in a way and they'll pair it
with another word or anotherphrase.
That's not evidence-based, likeevidence-based myofascial
release.
It depends on how you're usingthat word.
But what do you mean by myof?
Mean by mouth?
Are you actually talking aboutlike changing the structural
(15:15):
integrity of the fascia?
Are you talking about like atechnique approach?
So there's this kind of,there's this, I don't know,
misunderstanding or misuse ofsome of the terminology in a way
.
So I see people do that and youalways want to give everybody
the benefit of the doubt to say,okay, what do you mean when you
say that?
Are you talking, are youtalking about like an approach,
(15:37):
like a hands-on andmovement-based approach, but
you're calling it myofascialrelease, or are you actually
teaching people how to breakdown scar tissue and adhesions
and this stuff?
which we know is lackingevidence.
Meaghan (15:50):
So yeah, I do find it gets used and almost becomes
like a buzzword yeah, that'syeah, yeah, but I do feel like I
think it's positive that peopleare thinking that way.
At least 100 yes 100.
Eric (16:04):
Yeah, and I agree I'm 100.
I think it's great that peopleare asking those questions and
wanting to know for sure, andI've spoken before about many of
these topics and there'ssometimes some of the feedback I
get from people is they hear,when you're challenging an idea
and when they have, when they'reso closely, they attach their
(16:24):
identity to that idea.
It becomes like a personalattack on them and that's never
what's meant to be.
It's more.
We're just challenging thisidea.
It doesn't mean that you're abad person or a bad therapist,
but people.
I think that's a problem that inthe profession and I've had
some talks with some students atsome of the massage schools
recently.
It's something I do as often asI can and I ask them that
(16:48):
question.
Now you know.
But how are you?
And like your student, likesome of them sometimes are term
two, term three, sometimesthey're term six or seven,
depending on the length of theprogram, where they are, and I
ask them is your personalidentity attached to a technique
, modality, style, and even inschool that most of them will be
like, yeah, and then tell mewhat that is and they will
(17:09):
identify I'm a deep tissuetherapist.
I'm a sports massage therapist.
I'm a sports massage person orI'm a myofascial, or I'm going
to do MLD identified by thetechnique.
Yes, and it's interesting whenI challenge them on that, engage
with them I shouldn't saychallenge engage them on that in
a critical thinking exerciseand how they come out of it
thinking oh yeah, I guess thereis more than one way and I don't
(17:30):
have to be this person.
Meaghan (17:33):
Yes, it's so true.
And it's funny you say thatbecause I was thinking the other
day of how, when I met you, Ihad been graduated for a while,
but I remember being in schooland then after school I was just
like a massage therapist.
I wasn't like a deep tissuemassage therapist, I didn't.
I didn't feel like I had atitle attached to me.
(17:54):
I was.
I was a real generalist stillam really and I remember going
to your pain first pain sciencecourse and I was like finally,
somebody can tell me that I amokay to just touch people nicely
, as you, and treat them nicely.
(18:17):
You don't have to do somethingspecific to be effective that
course was.
Eric (18:21):
I think that was one of the early days.
I think that might've beenmaybe 2017 or 2018, might've
been on the early days and Iremember that course because I
remember you being there andasking good questions and like
nodding along and smiling.
But that was also the coursewhere I have probably some of
the worst memories of teaching.
There are some people therethat were just horrible to me
(18:42):
and just horrible to the room,and it's funny because I've
taught that particular course Idon't know 50, 60 times probably
over the years, like I used todo that course alone, probably
10 to 15 times a year.
It was very, very popular andit's funny.
I can't remember most of them,but I remember that one in
(19:04):
particular and I think, oh mygod, it was terrible.
Yeah, people did not like that.
So I think my delivery gotbetter it was hard.
Meaghan (19:10):
I think for some people it was hard to hear, but you
made a fan in me.
Yeah, you got one.
Eric (19:17):
It's funny.
Even now.
It's funny Some of the feedbackI get from people, and a lot of
times it comes from people thathave no idea who I am.
Like they've never attended acourse of mine, they've just
heard things or they've readthings, and they immediately at
their backup.
I had a few times why I've?
The last year I had somebodywho you really need to improve
how you present yourself to thepublic.
(19:38):
I was like you've never takenanything of mine.
Yeah, like we've met.
We've we've had very fewinteractions.
Oh, yeah, but I've heard onyour podcast you say these
things, or I've seen these posts.
Yeah, but that's you're takinga meaning out of that.
That was not intended andyou've spun the words to fit a
narrative and it's.
It's interesting because youcould be out there and saying
(20:01):
what everybody wants to hear,but then you're just like it's
just noise in the background, soyou got to say something
different and it's funny.
It's still amazing to me afterall these years how hard is for
people to hear something thatmight challenge their way of
thinking.
It's interesting Evenwell-educated, experienced
people sometimes will still gettheir back up and think, yeah, I
(20:23):
never said that.
Or you heard that and you tookthis meaning, whereas everybody
else took this meaning and samething with your experience.
In that course, you're like, itresonated with you, it hit
right.
You're like oh, this is whatI'm thinking, and other people
were you're a heathen, go away.
Yeah, so anyway, it'sinteresting.
It's interesting how you seethat, but I do agree.
(20:45):
Going back to the initialquestion, it was some of the
changes do find in some of theprovinces, though, at least when
I pay attention some of thesocial media things.
It's still very technique.
What technique should I do forthis?
What modality do I need to addto my toolbox?
And it's all about having toolsrather than understanding, and
I think that's something where Iwould like to see things go.
(21:08):
Next is more knowledge of whatit is that we're actually doing,
rather than chasing a milliondifferent techniques, for sure.
Meaghan (21:16):
I also think I was thinking also we talked the
other day about how, when you'resupporting me with the short
little webinar, how I think RMTsin BC anyways, I'm sure it's
the same across Canada thateveryone likes to do short
little, just want short snippetsof information.
Nowadays make like short littlewebinars or, and it seems like
(21:38):
in-person stuff is becoming abit more non-existent, which I
think is why your symposium ideathat you have last year was the
first one.
Last year was the first oneyeah.
Yeah, like I think this idea ofdoing getting a bunch of
information on one day butpeople don't have to leave their
(21:59):
living room or bedroom oroffice or whatever I think is
genius well.
Eric (22:01):
Thank you, it went really well last year and I'm sure
it'll go well again.
They sure haven't done too muchpromotion for it, but I'm sure
it'll be great.
But I agree that's one reasonwhy I've completely shifted so
much of my work to doing shortwebinars like one hour, 90
minute, two hour webinars, isbecause they're cheaper for
people.
But you can actually get yourinformation to more people for
(22:23):
50, 60 bucks or 40 bucksdepending on how long it is and
people don't have to leave.
Yeah, or they come from theirhome or they don't have to take
off a day of work.
Meaghan (22:31):
You think of the old?
Eric (22:32):
system, which, as a teacher educator it was great.
I knew that every year I couldas many weekends as I wanted to
teach.
I could get people to come takecourses, because people needed
those 14 hours every two years,or whatever it was, or 20,.
Meaghan (22:47):
I can't remember now 24 every two years, I think 24,
yeah, whatever it was peopleneeded to attend those courses.
Eric (22:52):
You just teach a course, get it approved, and it was
great, but from an instructor'sperspective it sucked because
you were often on the road onthe weekends missing family and
it was tiring.
It was in the courses you hadto charge a lot because they
were expensive, because you hadto travel, hotel rent space and
so it wasn't really in I mean,wasn't in everyone's best
interest.
The same, whereas the onlinethe short snippets is fits well,
(23:15):
I think too, with the way theworld is right now yes that
convenience of online and shortlittle bits of information.
Yeah, agreed, but in-personcourses still are pretty good.
I'm doing a bunch of, I'm doinga few of them this year and
nice still a market for it, butit's I think it's easier to sell
online.
Yeah, for sure.
Yeah, convenience, convenienceis great.
(23:36):
So let's talk a bit more aboutyour topic, because your topic
is on oncology and cancer.
Just give us a quick synopsis.
I don't even remember welearned about cancer in school,
not much.
What's that?
Entry to level practiceknowledge what do you remember
from what you?
Meaghan (23:48):
learned.
I don't remember much at all.
So so in my undergrad degree,my Bachelor of Science, I took a
couple oncology courses whichwere more like cellular biology,
intense craziness.
But massage therapy we musthave done something, because we
did do like a practical portionwith cancer patients and their
caregivers.
(24:09):
I do remember that I don'tremember, and their caregivers.
I do remember that.
I don't remember it wasprobably one day that you in
like a systemic treatments classthat you did for oncology.
Also, when I taught there, Itaught the pathology classes and
we did some work on oncologythen.
But I don't honestly don't then.
(24:34):
But I don't honestly don't.
I remember I don't remember itbeing a significant thing in my
mind when I graduated frommassage school that I would feel
comfortable working with cancerpatients at the end of school.
Eric (24:45):
Yeah, that is my memory of my emotions, about how I felt.
I remember being in school andit was more about being scared
about cancer other than how canyou best support somebody or
help them.
It was more about we don't knowwe could.
You could spread cancer or youcould make them worse and that
was the thing is, you weren'tsupposed to treat people that
(25:06):
had cancer or might have cancer,because there's that fear of
harm.
But even if we look back at theevidence from 30 years ago, I
never said that no, but therewas.
This is this goes the idea ofthere's, when beliefs start to
inform curriculum, right.
A whole other topic and I'veprobably talked about this last
before on this podcast and otherthings is that if the belief is
(25:28):
that massage increases systemiccirculation, then if that could
be true, then there could bethe possibility that you could
spread cancer cells.
Yeah, but we know those twothings aren't true, but right
based on belief.
So, yeah, I think there'sthere's and it's still.
Uh, from, I see it's using ourvery evidence-based reading what
(25:50):
people talk about onlineanecdotally, we do see that
still, a lot of people are stillafraid to treat people that
have cancer because that's whatthey were taught.
Oh, I learned in school thatyou shouldn't yeah, yeah, which
is really unfortunate.
Meaghan (26:05):
And if you go back to your increasing circulation can
spread cancer.
So can walking up the stairs orgoing for a brisk walk, which
is and anyone in the oncologyworld is telling their patients
to maybe they're not becausethere's not a lot of exercise
prescription, but there is noevidence that cancer patients
(26:26):
should just be lying down allthe time to not increase their
circulation, like they're beingencouraged to get up and go for
a walk and increase theircirculation.
So we're not going to spreadcancer, like exercise is not
going to spread cancer, andneither are your hands-on
techniques.
Eric (26:43):
Yeah, it's actually the opposite.
I would imagine you'd want todo anything that you could to
make the person feel better,maybe increase their immune
system functioning, whichexercise is shown to do so, to
kind of move on to that topic.
So I know you have yourbackground in exercise and tell
us a little bit more about thebenefits of exercise with people
, whether it's active cancerduring pre-post treatment.
Meaghan (27:08):
Yeah, so there's lots.
Science, the last few yearsspecifically, has shown there's
a lot of research coming outthat exercise can be super
important for cancer patientsbefore diagnosis.
Even so, if you have not beendiagnosed with cancer, exercise
is super important in preventingcancer.
And I think there's I don'thave them off the top of my head
(27:30):
, but there's at least over 10different cancers that doing
regular exercise can beprevented.
Cancer can be prevented bydoing regular exercise.
Didn't say that properly.
But also during treatment andthen after treatment, exercise
is super, super important aswell.
Specifically after treatmentthere's there was a new study
(27:52):
that came out this year actuallythat shows there's 10 specific
types of cancer.
Now that exercise, regularexercise, can decrease the
chance of reoccurrence of cancer, and that includes breast
cancer, which is very prevalentin our populations these days.
But then during cancertreatment as well, like
(28:12):
rehabilitation from surgery,exercise, range of motion
exercises can be super helpfulHelping people when they're
taking doing chemotherapy orradiation treatment.
Exercise is super helpful inincreasing the immune system
function, making people feelgood.
Honestly, that's a big one.
And then, yeah, just keepingpeople moving.
(28:33):
And so in the when we do thesymposium, I will go through
kind of information for patientsthat have had surgery or have
been going through chemotherapytreatment and through radiation
treatment, and we'll give someexercise recommendations on
those topics.
Eric (28:49):
So yeah, it just is a general rule.
There's no reason why massageor exercise could not be used by
someone who has cancer.
Meaghan (29:06):
There's no reason why they're that they should not
utilize.
No the only thing that youshould be cautious of is if
someone has had their cancerspread to their bones and then
you would want to know wherethat location would be, and if
you are touching them in massagetherapy touching them gently
(29:27):
over those, but you're not goingto spread cancer or cause any
issues.
I think both modalitiesexercise and massage therapy are
100% valid for cancer patientsin any stage of their treatment.
But there are things toconsider.
People going throughchemotherapy often feel like
garbage for a lot of the time,so there's ways you can work
(29:51):
around those days that they'refeeling really rough and then
massage them on non-treatmentweeks or ask them to increase
their steps on non-treatmentweeks when they're feeling a bit
more energetic.
But yeah, I think exercise andmassage therapy are super
helpful any point in time for acancer patient, and specifically
(30:13):
after.
It's funny when you I haven'ttalked yet about my cancer
journey on this podcast, butspecifically after you have gone
through cancer diagnosistreatment.
It's like you're riding thisadrenaline high for so long,
appointment to appointment dueto surgery, to different types
of treatment, and then all of asudden you're just thrown back
into this real world of you'refine now and you're supposed to
(30:40):
figure out what you like andwhat you enjoy, and so I think
exercise, specifically, can besuper therapeutic, even if it's
just going out for a walk orremembering those things that
you enjoyed doing before cancertreatment.
Was it?
Is it yoga?
Is it going to the gym, is itmountain climbing, mountain
biking or rock climbing orwhatever.
I think it's important toremember what you enjoyed
(31:04):
previous.
Eric (31:06):
Yeah, yeah, you're fine now.
You're fine now.
I'm currently cancer free.
Yeah, does that mean I'm fine?
What about all the other stuff?
Yeah psychosocial, emotionalstuff.
I guess that's a westernmedical thing.
Is the you're fine from amedical biological perspective
(31:27):
for now?
yeah but yeah, the there's ahuge benefit, like you said,
with returning to those thingsthat you want to do.
I know he is not respectedanymore, but lance armstrong was
somebody that I used to be.
I used to cycle all the time.
I didn't have a car until I was20 28.
(31:49):
I rode my bike everywhere and Icycled and I rode with cycling
groups and it was a big part ofmy life up until my probably
early 30s and I had a couple ofaccidents.
I got kids I'm not going to die, so I don't really ride much
anymore but anyway I was a bigfan of his at the time because
he was winning everything and hewas this cocky character, so he
(32:09):
was easy to like.
Yeah, At least for me he wasyeah and I remember reading his
books that he wrote and ofcourse they're full of all kinds
of lies, which he lateradmitted, obviously.
But I remember one of thethings that really stuck with me
, which just came to me when youwere telling me about things
people need to do during andparticularly afterwards, is that
when he had his cancer and ithad spread from testicular
(32:31):
cancer, I think, and he had itin his brain and it all over the
place and he got he still gotup and gotten his bike every day
during that treatment as muchas he could, and afterwards, as
soon as he could, he got back onhis bike because that was what
provided him happiness.
yeah, exactly I think thatalways stuck with me and that's
something in clinically, overthe years, I've seen patients
(32:53):
that have.
You know what the evidence says.
That's good.
And here's a experience, here'sa story from somebody.
Whether you like him or not, hesurvived cancer and this is how
he got one of the ways he gotthrough it yeah I always found
that was people tended toresonate with that more often
than not.
Meaghan (33:10):
Totally.
Eric (33:11):
I think, yeah, one thing just to think about would be
just for people listening andmaybe, if you want to expand on
this a little bit without goinginto too much detail because you
don't want to give yourpresentation on a podcast Leave
some mystery here for people tocome listen to stuff and attend
live.
I would imagine, though,there's two things that come to
my mind is modifications that weneed to be mindful of for
(33:31):
people under going, eitherduring or after, cancer is would
be radiation as well assurgical incisions.
Sure, what would yourrecommendations be on that for,
say, say, somebody's goingthrough radiation?
Yeah, what's the role ofmassage and exercise in that
regards?
Meaghan (33:50):
radiation.
So generally you will haveradiation over a extended period
of time.
So people often get ready likedo four weeks of daily radiation
treatment for, say that per se.
That's often a usualprescription that they get, and
so tissue can get super fragile.
It looks like they have a superawful sunburn in the radiated
(34:14):
areas and it can stay that wayfor a few weeks after radiation
treatment has ended.
And so changes you would needto make if you're treating that
person is, if it's veryuncomfortable for them, you just
avoid that area.
For massage, however, they areoften told to use like a
specific lotion to keep thingshydrated.
(34:34):
So I, when I have worked withbreast cancer patients that have
had radiated skin, I've oftenjust very gently massaged their
specific lotion onto their skinin that area.
And then, specific to breastcancer patients, because they
get radiation in the chest andarmpit area, it can get quite
(34:56):
tight or they are uncomfortablemoving their limb.
Any sort of work on range ofmotion exercises which can be
done on the table as a massagetherapist, helping with passive
range of motion within a, withinpain tolerance, or if you're an
exercise professional, you canprescribe, you can suggest doing
range of motion exercises.
(35:16):
It can be very simple just likeflexion and extension, move
them in whatever move movementthey are comfortable doing and
to show them that it's okay tomove as well yeah, that's
important.
Eric (35:33):
So often in musculoskeletal care human care,
human is a hurt care there'sthis fear of damage or there's a
fear of doing more harm.
And in my experiences andprobably in yours as well and it
sounds like in your experiencesours probably are very similar
(35:57):
is that just simple movement,simple exercises, can be the
most powerful.
It doesn't need to be anythingcrazy, and we see that all the
time in our profession, don't wePeople just don't feel
comfortable getting peoplemoving or giving them exercise.
And because we have this maybeit's in our head, maybe it's
(36:19):
cultural, maybe it's societal, Idon't know, maybe it's just
what patients expect, but weonly touch people is this idea
that so many of us have but fiveminutes of range of motion,
maybe a little bit of resistedrange of motion or giving
someone permission to move, canbe so powerful?
It's within our scope ofpractice?
(36:40):
Yeah, and most places someplaces in the states I don't
think there is.
I think some places in thestates you can't do any movement
stuff, but most peoplelistening are probably you can
get someone to do some activeand passive range of motion.
Yeah, yeah, for sure.
Encourage them to exercise withthe exercise stuff.
Now would you?
Now, obviously this is veryperson dependent, but when
(37:03):
you're talking about exercise,you're not talking about cause.
There's this connotation you'llhave with exercises like
involves weights and exercise.
What do you mean, mean by it?
How would you define exercisefor this population?
What would that look like?
Meaghan (37:15):
good question.
In the webinar, we mostly talkabout exercise as like range of
motion, movements or simpleanything that brings you joy,
and I think that is the mostimportant.
So after surgery, range ofmotion I feel like getting back.
(37:36):
Range of motion is superimportant and something you can
work on right away.
All the research on cancer andexercise is based on moderate
intensity exercise.
So most of the studies are havepeople going for a brisk walk
as their moderate intensityexercise.
So that's as simple as it canbe.
(37:58):
It doesn't have to becomplicated, like you don't need
to be going to a CrossFitworkout or to be doing hot yoga
or anything that feel would feeltoo intense.
However, if that is what youenjoy, then maybe that's what
you want to do.
For me, when I had my firstbreast cancer surgery, I was in
the gym three days after surgerybecause that's what made me
(38:22):
feel good.
I felt at home at the gym.
I felt like I could do my rangeof motion exercises at the gym
and that felt really good for mebecause I love going to the gym
.
But for someone else that couldbe just going for a walk in the
woods for half an hour, and allthis the science all says you
for moderate intensity exerciseyou need only 150 minutes a week
(38:45):
for to prevent cancer or toextend your life if you have
terminal cancer, or to preventreoccurrence.
So 150 minutes is not long in aweek that's two and a half hours
a week yeah, yeah, 30, 30minutes, five days yeah, and you
take two days off exactly butyou don't have to yeah, exactly,
(39:10):
and that, and yes, I thinkexercise can be what you want it
to be, if you're, if yourpatient is going through cancer
treatment, I think, and you wantto keep them moving or get them
moving.
It needs, you need to.
Just communication needs to bethe big thing.
What do they like to do, whatdo they hate doing?
Because you're not going totell them to do what they hate
doing.
Eric (39:30):
Yeah, Especially during probably the most stressful time
of their life.
Most people don't like it whenyou give them a sheet and say do
these exercises 10 times, threetimes a day or whatever.
That's totally useless for mostpeople and not meaningful.
No-transcript.
(40:00):
It could be dance, it could beyoga, it could be hiking, it
could be doing push-ups andsit-ups on the floor or whatever
you feel like you can do, couldbe doing push-ups and sit-ups
on the floor or whatever youfeel like you, you can do.
yeah, and when you say themoderate intensity and correct
me if I'm wrong that's usuallyat the level where you can still
have a conversation that'sright.
Meaghan (40:17):
Yeah, yeah, like you're , you feel your heart rate and
your breathing rate increasing,but you could still.
If you're walking with a friend, you could still carry on a
conversation but maybe bebreathing a bit heavy.
Yeah, I think, maybe if you arelike a heart rate person, it's
like a zone two heart rate.
Lower end of zone two, I think,is moderate intensity.
Eric (40:40):
And then if you're into more intense exercise.
Meaghan (40:44):
you only need 75 minutes oh is that right?
Eric (40:47):
Yeah, intense exercise a week to have cancer benefits oh,
I should put the soccer bootsback on, yeah get moving play
once a week.
Okay, I'm done that's it, yeahjust kidding, doesn't work that
way, but yeah, that's great.
Well, that's great, megan,thanks for that.
You provided a good synopsis ofkind of some of the key things
(41:11):
you'll be talking about, and Iknow you go into more detail in
your presentation.
It should be good.
If I remember correctly, Ibelieve yours is the second to
last presentation on the day, soI believe 1 pm Pacific time.
For anybody that wants to takeMegan's course, it's available
on my website, thecebecom slashcourses.
You can get it from there andOctober 5th hopefully people can
(41:37):
attend and for anyone that isgoing to attend live, it is
recorded.
So if you can't make it live,you will have access to it
afterwards.
But if you have any questions,there will be a short Q&A as
well.
Megan will be available for youfor that.
Meaghan (41:52):
Yeah, ask me I'm.
I have an open book.
Ask me anything perfect.
Eric (41:55):
Well, thanks, megan for being here and you have a good
day and we will connect soonyeah, see you in october thank
you for listening.
Please subscribe on yourfavorite podcast network so you
can be notified of futureepisodes.
If you enjoyed this episode,please and share it to your
favorite social media platforms.
A full listing of myself-directed live courses,
(42:15):
blogs, resources and podcastepisodes can be found on my
website, thecebecom.
If you would like to connectwith me directly, I can be
reached through my website, orplease send me a DM through
either Facebook or Instagram atericpervisrmt.
If you really enjoy theseepisodes, please consider making
a small donation.
This can be done by clicking onthe support button or heading
(42:36):
over to buymeacoffeecom.
Slash helloob.
Thanks for being here and Ihope you enjoyed this episode.
Hello and welcome to Massage Science.
My name is Eric Purvis.
I'm a course creator, educatorand advocate for evidence-based
care in the massage and manualtherapy professions.
This is the third episode in myKnowledge Summit series.
I will be hosting this one-dayonline conference live over Zoom
on October the 5th.
This conference will featurefive presenters from across
Canada and the United Kingdomwho will be sharing their
(00:35):
knowledge and clinical insightson a variety of topics relevant
to the massage and manualtherapy professions.
Today's episode is with MeganMounts.
Her presentation is titled MoveThrough Cancer the role of
exercise and treatment inrecovery.
Today, we will discuss some ofthe content you can expect
during her presentation, andshe'll also be sharing some of
her personal insights into herexperience as a cancer survivor.
(00:58):
For more information and alsoto register, please visit my
website, thecebecom.
I am also excited to announcethat my company and this podcast
now has an official sponsor.
I'm excited to be partneringwith Notero.
They are a Canadian companytrusted by thousands of
healthcare professionals acrossvarious disciplines.
Notero has been dedicated toserving the healthcare community
(01:19):
for 12 years with acomprehensive suite of features
like charting, scheduling,billing and the new Notero Go Go
is tailored for mobilepractitioners, streamlining
workflows and helpingpractitioners run their business
more efficiently.
Visit noterocom slash C-E-B-Eto start your extended 44-day
trial.
That is N-O-T-E-R-O dot comslash C-E-B-E.
(01:44):
Now let's begin this episode.
Hello everybody, and welcome toanother episode of Massage
Science.
I'm excited to welcome thepride of Cedar BC today, megan
Mount.
So, megan, thanks for beinghere.
Meaghan (02:04):
Thanks for having me Super excited.
Eric (02:07):
This is gonna be another episode in the series on the
promoting the upcoming knowledgesummit, which is on October 5th
.
Megan is presenting her onehour webinar called move through
cancer the role of exercise intreatment and recovery.
Megan also has a mini course, amini self-directed workshop, on
my website as well, but she'sgoing to be presenting I'm
(02:27):
assuming, similar material liveon October 5th.
Thanks for being here, Megan.
Why don't you just telleverybody a little bit about you
?
Meaghan (02:35):
Yeah for sure.
Thanks for having me.
So I live in Cedar BC, which isa small community, I guess, on
the south side of Nanaimo.
I live with my husband, sean,who's great and I still really
like him a lot, and our daughter, eva.
She's eight years old.
We also have a dog who issnoring right next to me, so
hopefully you can't hear that onhere.
(02:55):
We spend a lot of time outdoors.
We are living on VancouverIsland.
It's pretty incredible fordoing any sort of outdoor,
year-round outdoor activity.
So we go mountain biking, weboat, we have a cabin on a small
island near Nanaimo, so prettylucky.
My history, I guess.
I graduated from VancouverIsland University 20 years ago
(03:20):
this year with a Bachelor ofScience, majored in biology.
Ago this year with a Bachelor ofScience, majored in biology,
and that was the time when yougraduated with a science degree
and there was no jobs, andperhaps that's still the case,
but at that point in time therewas like almost nothing to get a
full-time job in.
I did a couple contract jobs formarine biology work but quickly
(03:45):
realized that I needed to dosomething different.
So I moved to Victoria andbecame a personal trainer and
group fitness instructor andjust absolutely fell in love
with working in the fitnessindustry so have been in that
kind of work for almost 20 yearsas well.
And then from I realized I justwanted to help people a bit
more and discovered that therewas a massage therapy college in
(04:08):
Victoria.
So I took the 3,000 hour RMTprogram from West Coast College
Massage Therapy and have been amassage therapist for almost 15
years now and I massaged fulltime for a number of years and
now just massage very part timeand I also teach group fitness
(04:32):
classes but do some other workoutside of massage but still
have my hands in there.
Eric (04:38):
No pun intended.
Meaghan (04:39):
No pun intended.
Eric (04:41):
Or maybe there was a pun intended.
You do have a contract.
Your full-time job is with oneof the territories that's right.
Meaghan (04:48):
Yeah, my husband and I lived in the territory of
Nunavut for just over a year forhis work and when we moved up
there I started there as amassage therapist and
volunteered at the gym teachingclasses.
But decided to use my biologydegree finally and got a job
with the government of Nunavutup there and made some good
(05:08):
friends.
And then when we returned homea few years later, those friends
had started their ownconsulting company and asked me
if I would help them on aproject.
That project has turned into avery full-time work, so I do a
variety of things in supportingthe government of Nunavut and
Inuit organizations andassociations in Nunavut.
(05:30):
Very random things to drill in.
Eric (05:33):
Cedar.
So I think it's such a neatthing as a neat job and sounds
like obviously very important,but it's really interesting that
you can do that from way downhere.
Meaghan (05:43):
Way down south, way down southern provinces super
interesting.
Eric (05:48):
I feel like I learned something new every day, which
is amazing one thing that oftencomes up too, I find with
conversations I have withmassage therapists is so many
people feel like it's I shouldsay I shouldn't say so many, but
there's a good number of peoplethat feel that they don't know
what else to do.
Yeah, yeah, and I always saythere's so many other options
out there.
But really if you don't have adegree or training it doesn't
(06:09):
have to be a degree, but ourtraining is something else Then,
yeah, your options are limitedto pretty much just massage.
But the fact that you had thatundergrad degree really helped
to nail down this other job, soyou can.
But you can still have your punintended hands into the massage
world and you've got yourfitness training so it can give
you a few different ways ofworking and expressing your
(06:30):
creative side or with your doingwork for meaningful
organizations or helping peoplecreating or doing exercise plans
and fitness training.
I think it's great, and I alwayssay that it's important, I
think, for us as a profession torealize that.
You may feel some people mayfeel like there's I'm stuck, I
can only do massage therapy, sothere's all kinds of stuff you
(06:51):
can do.
You just got to explore it.
It may not be as wide in termsof options as you would get with
, say, like physiotherapy, whereyou could take like an
extremely academic route, or youcan do research or you work in
hospitals or care homes or thosekind of things.
We don't necessarily have thatsame career trajectory, but I
think it's great to hear storieslike your own, where you're
(07:12):
like yeah, I was an RMT and nowI'm working for the government,
I'm still massaging a little bitand still doing some fitness
stuff.
I think it's great.
I think it should be inspiringto people that are listening
yeah, I think too.
Meaghan (07:23):
I always wondered.
I remember when I started mymassage, the massage therapy
college, going to school there,I was like oh, what a waste of
time I did for my biology degree.
Like why did I take this?
But I think, looking back, itwas probably one of the best
decisions I made.
Honestly, it made me a betterstudent for the massage therapy
program, but also I've had somany opportunities because of it
(07:46):
, even though I didn't havemaybe some right away yeah,
that's a really important point,I think, to make.
Eric (07:52):
I went to UVic and I graduated 24 years ago.
That's a little bit older thanyou.
I remember speaking with myuncle on my mom's side.
He said to me when you do yourundergraduate degree, it's not
going to teach you how to get ajob, it's going to teach you how
to learn, and you're going tolearn more about yourself.
How do you learn?
(08:13):
How do you prioritize your time?
How do you function withdeadlines?
It teaches you all these lifeskills which you can only get
from going to university.
That was his and that alwaysstuck with me.
At the time I was like unclewayne, whatever.
But as the years went on, likeI kept on hearing that and again
and again.
And actually funny, he workedfor the nunavut government for
(08:34):
years.
Oh crazy, yeah, he was up there.
He worked up in rank and inletand oh yeah, uh, kaglaktuk yeah,
amazing, I'm saying that yeah,yeah he
worked up there for years.
I always wanted to go visit himbut it was actually more
expensive to fly up there thanit was to fly to Australia, oh
yes, or the farthest points ofthe world.
It was so far and so expensive.
It was more expensive to fly upthere.
(08:55):
Yeah, definitely is, but thatjust.
Maybe we're off topic.
I don't know topic, I don'tknow.
We'll see where this goes, butthe I just wanted to talk a bit
more about that, about you wentand had your undergraduate
degree and it teaches you how tolearn, yeah, and made you
better rmt student.
I felt the same way too, and Ithink a lot of people that were
that really did really well,like some people obviously just
were young and just like, wentright out to school and they
(09:17):
were just, they had the energy,they had the time and they were
focused.
They did great too.
But I did find that people thathad a little bit of education
it was a much easier process togo through massage school just
because you learned how to learn, how to prioritize what was
important, what wasn't important, and you don't have to have a
degree to do that, but it helps100%.
Meaghan (09:36):
I totally agree with you.
Eric (09:38):
I had the same.
I had the same thoughts too,about the.
When I was in massage school Ithought I'm gonna get finish
this, I'm gonna have a job likeI'm gonna make money, it's gonna
be great.
I remember thinking why did Ispent four years university?
yeah but then, after working fora decade ish, I went back to
university to do my master'sdegree.
I was so thankful I had thatundergrad because I couldn't
(10:00):
have done a master's without it,and of course, that opens up
other doors.
Yeah, I think you're never tooold to learn.
No I think I was 4041.
I think it was 41 when Igraduated with my master's
degree.
Meaghan (10:12):
Amazing.
Yeah, I have contemplated goingback to school Again too,
because I love learning, but yes, it's a bit of a step at this
age.
Eric (10:21):
I know, as we get older becomes a little less.
You know you're like well, Igot my kids and I want to spend
another two, three, four, fiveyears back in school.
Yeah, what would you do if youcould go back?
Or if you were going to go nowand there was like no barriers
and you go back, what would youdo?
Meaghan (10:38):
Oh, this is a great question.
I would probably.
My dream actually was before,when I was taking my biology
degree, I was planning to gointo physiotherapy.
That was my dream, so I think Iwould probably go somewhere
along that route, but maybe moreon the academic side, like
research or or teaching orsomething I don't know.
I did teach at the massagetherapy college in Victoria for
(11:01):
a few years and I really enjoyedthat.
So I don't know I would be.
I would enjoy doing somethinglike that.
I feel like, yeah, I thinkyou'd be great at it.
Eric (11:11):
We'll see.
Yeah, we'll see.
We'll see.
Yeah, I'm biased.
Teaching's fun.
I love teaching, I love andtalking to people about stuff
that I find interesting.
Meaghan (11:20):
So if you have that interest, go with it.
Eric (11:25):
Yeah, and PT, the, the pts , and that's one thing that I
really wish that we had in ourprofession.
I wish we had that academic likeprogression and I know there's
a lot of people that probablyaren't for that, because they
think it becomes a bit of thisdegree creep where you have to
keep on going to university andthere's a lot of great
therapists that don't haveuniversity degrees.
I totally agree there's.
You don't have to haveuniversity degree to be a great
(11:47):
massage or manual therapist.
I think that for those of usand there's many of us that
would appreciate or would enjoythat academic progression, like
PTs, it really would be ideal.
Yesterday, funny enough, I hada meeting with a researcher who
works at BC Children's Hospital.
Okay, she's a partner with UBC,wow, and she's a PT PhD and the
(12:11):
soccer my soccer team that Icoach, we're part of her
research project and she's doingsomething across the island in
the lower mainland and she'sdoing it on injury prevention
for on injury preventionprotocols for female youth,
right, which is what I coach, Icoach and I just we had this
great conversation yesterday.
I was so excited to talk to herand she was really excited to
(12:31):
share her stuff and I thoughtdifferent life.
Yeah, again, you're like that'sthe kind of stuff I would love
to, because she's doing thingson like acl prevention and rehab
and all the stuff, because it'sa huge problem in female sports
, particularly soccer knees,hips, ankles and I was so
inspired talking to her.
I'm so excited to be part ofthis thing.
That's super cool.
Yeah, yeah, that's awesome.
(12:51):
Sign us up.
Yeah, the team.
They have to consent, but Ivoluntold everyone part of next
year.
You don't have to if you wantto, but I really think you
should so yeah, amazing coolstuff.
Meaghan (13:02):
Yeah, science anyway.
Eric (13:04):
So you've been practicing for a while and what have been
some of the, what are some ofthe changes that you've seen in
the profession during your14-ish years?
Yeah, that's a good question,or have you seen any?
I don't know.
Meaghan (13:19):
I think honestly.
I was thinking back of when itmakes me think of back when we
were in school and it wasn'tvery I don't want to bash any
schools or anything, but I feellike it was.
There was not a lot of likeevidence-based, maybe,
curriculum, and I don't know howthe schools have progressed
since then or if they have atall.
(13:41):
But I do feel like massagetherapists are leaning towards
learning more information frompeople that have more an
evidence-based background orsourcing out that kind of
material anyways, and I alsothink that's a big one that I
feel like a lot of theprofession has moved to.
If you look at the Facebookgroups and everyone's, does
(14:02):
anyone have an evidence-basedcourse on this or something like
that?
And maybe it's just a termthat's used, overused, I don't
know, but I do feel like peopleare more interested in learning
the actual facts aboutinformation, less maybe about
the modalities that we, thehands-on modalities that were
(14:25):
shown in school.
Eric (14:27):
I would agree in some ways .
I think in BC I can.
Meaghan (14:33):
Yeah, I'm speaking from BCc, I don't know.
Eric (14:34):
Yeah, I would say and I don't want to say go to bc, I
don't want to be too bc centric,but I think the just that's
where we are and that's where weget most of our most
information.
We're exposed to an interactionwith the profession is in bc.
I would say.
Here there's definitely thisinterest, this curiosity, I can
say this evidence-based, curiouskind of ideas that are starting
(14:55):
to percolate through theprofession.
But I do agree that it's anoverused term where people will
use it.
But they use it and they'll useit in a way and they'll pair it
with another word or anotherphrase.
That's not evidence-based, likeevidence-based myofascial
release.
It depends on how you're usingthat word.
But what do you mean by myof?
Mean by mouth?
Are you actually talking aboutlike changing the structural
(15:15):
integrity of the fascia?
Are you talking about like atechnique approach?
So there's this kind of,there's this, I don't know,
misunderstanding or misuse ofsome of the terminology in a way
.
So I see people do that and youalways want to give everybody
the benefit of the doubt to say,okay, what do you mean when you
say that?
Are you talking, are youtalking about like an approach,
(15:37):
like a hands-on andmovement-based approach, but
you're calling it myofascialrelease, or are you actually
teaching people how to breakdown scar tissue and adhesions
and this stuff?
which we know is lackingevidence.
Meaghan (15:50):
So yeah, I do find it gets used and almost becomes
like a buzzword yeah, that'syeah, yeah, but I do feel like I
think it's positive that peopleare thinking that way.
At least 100 yes 100.
Eric (16:04):
Yeah, and I agree I'm 100.
I think it's great that peopleare asking those questions and
wanting to know for sure, andI've spoken before about many of
these topics and there'ssometimes some of the feedback I
get from people is they hear,when you're challenging an idea
and when they have, when they'reso closely, they attach their
(16:24):
identity to that idea.
It becomes like a personalattack on them and that's never
what's meant to be.
It's more.
We're just challenging thisidea.
It doesn't mean that you're abad person or a bad therapist,
but people.
I think that's a problem that inthe profession and I've had
some talks with some students atsome of the massage schools
recently.
It's something I do as often asI can and I ask them that
(16:48):
question.
Now you know.
But how are you?
And like your student, likesome of them sometimes are term
two, term three, sometimesthey're term six or seven,
depending on the length of theprogram, where they are, and I
ask them is your personalidentity attached to a technique
, modality, style, and even inschool that most of them will be
like, yeah, and then tell mewhat that is and they will
(17:09):
identify I'm a deep tissuetherapist.
I'm a sports massage therapist.
I'm a sports massage person orI'm a myofascial, or I'm going
to do MLD identified by thetechnique.
Yes, and it's interesting whenI challenge them on that, engage
with them I shouldn't saychallenge engage them on that in
a critical thinking exerciseand how they come out of it
thinking oh yeah, I guess thereis more than one way and I don't
(17:30):
have to be this person.
Meaghan (17:33):
Yes, it's so true.
And it's funny you say thatbecause I was thinking the other
day of how, when I met you, Ihad been graduated for a while,
but I remember being in schooland then after school I was just
like a massage therapist.
I wasn't like a deep tissuemassage therapist, I didn't.
I didn't feel like I had atitle attached to me.
(17:54):
I was.
I was a real generalist stillam really and I remember going
to your pain first pain sciencecourse and I was like finally,
somebody can tell me that I amokay to just touch people nicely
, as you, and treat them nicely.
(18:17):
You don't have to do somethingspecific to be effective that
course was.
Eric (18:21):
I think that was one of the early days.
I think that might've beenmaybe 2017 or 2018, might've
been on the early days and Iremember that course because I
remember you being there andasking good questions and like
nodding along and smiling.
But that was also the coursewhere I have probably some of
the worst memories of teaching.
There are some people therethat were just horrible to me
(18:42):
and just horrible to the room,and it's funny because I've
taught that particular course Idon't know 50, 60 times probably
over the years, like I used todo that course alone, probably
10 to 15 times a year.
It was very, very popular andit's funny.
I can't remember most of them,but I remember that one in
(19:04):
particular and I think, oh mygod, it was terrible.
Yeah, people did not like that.
So I think my delivery gotbetter it was hard.
Meaghan (19:10):
I think for some people it was hard to hear, but you
made a fan in me.
Yeah, you got one.
Eric (19:17):
It's funny.
Even now.
It's funny Some of the feedbackI get from people, and a lot of
times it comes from people thathave no idea who I am.
Like they've never attended acourse of mine, they've just
heard things or they've readthings, and they immediately at
their backup.
I had a few times why I've?
The last year I had somebodywho you really need to improve
how you present yourself to thepublic.
(19:38):
I was like you've never takenanything of mine.
Yeah, like we've met.
We've we've had very fewinteractions.
Oh, yeah, but I've heard onyour podcast you say these
things, or I've seen these posts.
Yeah, but that's you're takinga meaning out of that.
That was not intended andyou've spun the words to fit a
narrative and it's.
It's interesting because youcould be out there and saying
(20:01):
what everybody wants to hear,but then you're just like it's
just noise in the background, soyou got to say something
different and it's funny.
It's still amazing to me afterall these years how hard is for
people to hear something thatmight challenge their way of
thinking.
It's interesting Evenwell-educated, experienced
people sometimes will still gettheir back up and think, yeah, I
(20:23):
never said that.
Or you heard that and you tookthis meaning, whereas everybody
else took this meaning and samething with your experience.
In that course, you're like, itresonated with you, it hit
right.
You're like oh, this is whatI'm thinking, and other people
were you're a heathen, go away.
Yeah, so anyway, it'sinteresting.
It's interesting how you seethat, but I do agree.
(20:45):
Going back to the initialquestion, it was some of the
changes do find in some of theprovinces, though, at least when
I pay attention some of thesocial media things.
It's still very technique.
What technique should I do forthis?
What modality do I need to addto my toolbox?
And it's all about having toolsrather than understanding, and
I think that's something where Iwould like to see things go.
(21:08):
Next is more knowledge of whatit is that we're actually doing,
rather than chasing a milliondifferent techniques, for sure.
Meaghan (21:16):
I also think I was thinking also we talked the
other day about how, when you'resupporting me with the short
little webinar, how I think RMTsin BC anyways, I'm sure it's
the same across Canada thateveryone likes to do short
little, just want short snippetsof information.
Nowadays make like short littlewebinars or, and it seems like
(21:38):
in-person stuff is becoming abit more non-existent, which I
think is why your symposium ideathat you have last year was the
first one.
Last year was the first oneyeah.
Yeah, like I think this idea ofdoing getting a bunch of
information on one day butpeople don't have to leave their
(21:59):
living room or bedroom oroffice or whatever I think is
genius well.
Eric (22:01):
Thank you, it went really well last year and I'm sure
it'll go well again.
They sure haven't done too muchpromotion for it, but I'm sure
it'll be great.
But I agree that's one reasonwhy I've completely shifted so
much of my work to doing shortwebinars like one hour, 90
minute, two hour webinars, isbecause they're cheaper for
people.
But you can actually get yourinformation to more people for
(22:23):
50, 60 bucks or 40 bucksdepending on how long it is and
people don't have to leave.
Yeah, or they come from theirhome or they don't have to take
off a day of work.
Meaghan (22:31):
You think of the old?
Eric (22:32):
system, which, as a teacher educator it was great.
I knew that every year I couldas many weekends as I wanted to
teach.
I could get people to come takecourses, because people needed
those 14 hours every two years,or whatever it was, or 20,.
Meaghan (22:47):
I can't remember now 24 every two years, I think 24,
yeah, whatever it was peopleneeded to attend those courses.
Eric (22:52):
You just teach a course, get it approved, and it was
great, but from an instructor'sperspective it sucked because
you were often on the road onthe weekends missing family and
it was tiring.
It was in the courses you hadto charge a lot because they
were expensive, because you hadto travel, hotel rent space and
so it wasn't really in I mean,wasn't in everyone's best
interest.
The same, whereas the onlinethe short snippets is fits well,
(23:15):
I think too, with the way theworld is right now yes that
convenience of online and shortlittle bits of information.
Yeah, agreed, but in-personcourses still are pretty good.
I'm doing a bunch of, I'm doinga few of them this year and
nice still a market for it, butit's I think it's easier to sell
online.
Yeah, for sure.
Yeah, convenience, convenienceis great.
(23:36):
So let's talk a bit more aboutyour topic, because your topic
is on oncology and cancer.
Just give us a quick synopsis.
I don't even remember welearned about cancer in school,
not much.
What's that?
Entry to level practiceknowledge what do you remember
from what you?
Meaghan (23:48):
learned.
I don't remember much at all.
So so in my undergrad degree,my Bachelor of Science, I took a
couple oncology courses whichwere more like cellular biology,
intense craziness.
But massage therapy we musthave done something, because we
did do like a practical portionwith cancer patients and their
caregivers.
(24:09):
I do remember that I don'tremember, and their caregivers.
I do remember that.
I don't remember it wasprobably one day that you in
like a systemic treatments classthat you did for oncology.
Also, when I taught there, Itaught the pathology classes and
we did some work on oncologythen.
But I don't honestly don't then.
(24:34):
But I don't honestly don't.
I remember I don't remember itbeing a significant thing in my
mind when I graduated frommassage school that I would feel
comfortable working with cancerpatients at the end of school.
Eric (24:45):
Yeah, that is my memory of my emotions, about how I felt.
I remember being in school andit was more about being scared
about cancer other than how canyou best support somebody or
help them.
It was more about we don't knowwe could.
You could spread cancer or youcould make them worse and that
was the thing is, you weren'tsupposed to treat people that
(25:06):
had cancer or might have cancer,because there's that fear of
harm.
But even if we look back at theevidence from 30 years ago, I
never said that no, but therewas.
This is this goes the idea ofthere's, when beliefs start to
inform curriculum, right.
A whole other topic and I'veprobably talked about this last
before on this podcast and otherthings is that if the belief is
(25:28):
that massage increases systemiccirculation, then if that could
be true, then there could bethe possibility that you could
spread cancer cells.
Yeah, but we know those twothings aren't true, but right
based on belief.
So, yeah, I think there'sthere's and it's still.
Uh, from, I see it's using ourvery evidence-based reading what
(25:50):
people talk about onlineanecdotally, we do see that
still, a lot of people are stillafraid to treat people that
have cancer because that's whatthey were taught.
Oh, I learned in school thatyou shouldn't yeah, yeah, which
is really unfortunate.
Meaghan (26:05):
And if you go back to your increasing circulation can
spread cancer.
So can walking up the stairs orgoing for a brisk walk, which
is and anyone in the oncologyworld is telling their patients
to maybe they're not becausethere's not a lot of exercise
prescription, but there is noevidence that cancer patients
(26:26):
should just be lying down allthe time to not increase their
circulation, like they're beingencouraged to get up and go for
a walk and increase theircirculation.
So we're not going to spreadcancer, like exercise is not
going to spread cancer, andneither are your hands-on
techniques.
Eric (26:43):
Yeah, it's actually the opposite.
I would imagine you'd want todo anything that you could to
make the person feel better,maybe increase their immune
system functioning, whichexercise is shown to do so, to
kind of move on to that topic.
So I know you have yourbackground in exercise and tell
us a little bit more about thebenefits of exercise with people
, whether it's active cancerduring pre-post treatment.
Meaghan (27:08):
Yeah, so there's lots.
Science, the last few yearsspecifically, has shown there's
a lot of research coming outthat exercise can be super
important for cancer patientsbefore diagnosis.
Even so, if you have not beendiagnosed with cancer, exercise
is super important in preventingcancer.
And I think there's I don'thave them off the top of my head
(27:30):
, but there's at least over 10different cancers that doing
regular exercise can beprevented.
Cancer can be prevented bydoing regular exercise.
Didn't say that properly.
But also during treatment andthen after treatment, exercise
is super, super important aswell.
Specifically after treatmentthere's there was a new study
(27:52):
that came out this year actuallythat shows there's 10 specific
types of cancer.
Now that exercise, regularexercise, can decrease the
chance of reoccurrence of cancer, and that includes breast
cancer, which is very prevalentin our populations these days.
But then during cancertreatment as well, like
(28:12):
rehabilitation from surgery,exercise, range of motion
exercises can be super helpfulHelping people when they're
taking doing chemotherapy orradiation treatment.
Exercise is super helpful inincreasing the immune system
function, making people feelgood.
Honestly, that's a big one.
And then, yeah, just keepingpeople moving.
(28:33):
And so in the when we do thesymposium, I will go through
kind of information for patientsthat have had surgery or have
been going through chemotherapytreatment and through radiation
treatment, and we'll give someexercise recommendations on
those topics.
Eric (28:49):
So yeah, it just is a general rule.
There's no reason why massageor exercise could not be used by
someone who has cancer.
Meaghan (29:06):
There's no reason why they're that they should not
utilize.
No the only thing that youshould be cautious of is if
someone has had their cancerspread to their bones and then
you would want to know wherethat location would be, and if
you are touching them in massagetherapy touching them gently
(29:27):
over those, but you're not goingto spread cancer or cause any
issues.
I think both modalitiesexercise and massage therapy are
100% valid for cancer patientsin any stage of their treatment.
But there are things toconsider.
People going throughchemotherapy often feel like
garbage for a lot of the time,so there's ways you can work
(29:51):
around those days that they'refeeling really rough and then
massage them on non-treatmentweeks or ask them to increase
their steps on non-treatmentweeks when they're feeling a bit
more energetic.
But yeah, I think exercise andmassage therapy are super
helpful any point in time for acancer patient, and specifically
(30:13):
after.
It's funny when you I haven'ttalked yet about my cancer
journey on this podcast, butspecifically after you have gone
through cancer diagnosistreatment.
It's like you're riding thisadrenaline high for so long,
appointment to appointment dueto surgery, to different types
of treatment, and then all of asudden you're just thrown back
into this real world of you'refine now and you're supposed to
(30:40):
figure out what you like andwhat you enjoy, and so I think
exercise, specifically, can besuper therapeutic, even if it's
just going out for a walk orremembering those things that
you enjoyed doing before cancertreatment.
Was it?
Is it yoga?
Is it going to the gym, is itmountain climbing, mountain
biking or rock climbing orwhatever.
I think it's important toremember what you enjoyed
(31:04):
previous.
Eric (31:06):
Yeah, yeah, you're fine now.
You're fine now.
I'm currently cancer free.
Yeah, does that mean I'm fine?
What about all the other stuff?
Yeah psychosocial, emotionalstuff.
I guess that's a westernmedical thing.
Is the you're fine from amedical biological perspective
(31:27):
for now?
yeah but yeah, the there's ahuge benefit, like you said,
with returning to those thingsthat you want to do.
I know he is not respectedanymore, but lance armstrong was
somebody that I used to be.
I used to cycle all the time.
I didn't have a car until I was20 28.
(31:49):
I rode my bike everywhere and Icycled and I rode with cycling
groups and it was a big part ofmy life up until my probably
early 30s and I had a couple ofaccidents.
I got kids I'm not going to die, so I don't really ride much
anymore but anyway I was a bigfan of his at the time because
he was winning everything and hewas this cocky character, so he
(32:09):
was easy to like.
Yeah, At least for me he wasyeah and I remember reading his
books that he wrote and ofcourse they're full of all kinds
of lies, which he lateradmitted, obviously.
But I remember one of thethings that really stuck with me
, which just came to me when youwere telling me about things
people need to do during andparticularly afterwards, is that
when he had his cancer and ithad spread from testicular
(32:31):
cancer, I think, and he had itin his brain and it all over the
place and he got he still gotup and gotten his bike every day
during that treatment as muchas he could, and afterwards, as
soon as he could, he got back onhis bike because that was what
provided him happiness.
yeah, exactly I think thatalways stuck with me and that's
something in clinically, overthe years, I've seen patients
(32:53):
that have.
You know what the evidence says.
That's good.
And here's a experience, here'sa story from somebody.
Whether you like him or not, hesurvived cancer and this is how
he got one of the ways he gotthrough it yeah I always found
that was people tended toresonate with that more often
than not.
Meaghan (33:10):
Totally.
Eric (33:11):
I think, yeah, one thing just to think about would be
just for people listening andmaybe, if you want to expand on
this a little bit without goinginto too much detail because you
don't want to give yourpresentation on a podcast Leave
some mystery here for people tocome listen to stuff and attend
live.
I would imagine, though,there's two things that come to
my mind is modifications that weneed to be mindful of for
(33:31):
people under going, eitherduring or after, cancer is would
be radiation as well assurgical incisions.
Sure, what would yourrecommendations be on that for,
say, say, somebody's goingthrough radiation?
Yeah, what's the role ofmassage and exercise in that
regards?
Meaghan (33:50):
radiation.
So generally you will haveradiation over a extended period
of time.
So people often get ready likedo four weeks of daily radiation
treatment for, say that per se.
That's often a usualprescription that they get, and
so tissue can get super fragile.
It looks like they have a superawful sunburn in the radiated
(34:14):
areas and it can stay that wayfor a few weeks after radiation
treatment has ended.
And so changes you would needto make if you're treating that
person is, if it's veryuncomfortable for them, you just
avoid that area.
For massage, however, they areoften told to use like a
specific lotion to keep thingshydrated.
(34:34):
So I, when I have worked withbreast cancer patients that have
had radiated skin, I've oftenjust very gently massaged their
specific lotion onto their skinin that area.
And then, specific to breastcancer patients, because they
get radiation in the chest andarmpit area, it can get quite
(34:56):
tight or they are uncomfortablemoving their limb.
Any sort of work on range ofmotion exercises which can be
done on the table as a massagetherapist, helping with passive
range of motion within a, withinpain tolerance, or if you're an
exercise professional, you canprescribe, you can suggest doing
range of motion exercises.
(35:16):
It can be very simple just likeflexion and extension, move
them in whatever move movementthey are comfortable doing and
to show them that it's okay tomove as well yeah, that's
important.
Eric (35:33):
So often in musculoskeletal care human care,
human is a hurt care there'sthis fear of damage or there's a
fear of doing more harm.
And in my experiences andprobably in yours as well and it
sounds like in your experiencesours probably are very similar
(35:57):
is that just simple movement,simple exercises, can be the
most powerful.
It doesn't need to be anythingcrazy, and we see that all the
time in our profession, don't wePeople just don't feel
comfortable getting peoplemoving or giving them exercise.
And because we have this maybeit's in our head, maybe it's
(36:19):
cultural, maybe it's societal, Idon't know, maybe it's just
what patients expect, but weonly touch people is this idea
that so many of us have but fiveminutes of range of motion,
maybe a little bit of resistedrange of motion or giving
someone permission to move, canbe so powerful?
It's within our scope ofpractice?
(36:40):
Yeah, and most places someplaces in the states I don't
think there is.
I think some places in thestates you can't do any movement
stuff, but most peoplelistening are probably you can
get someone to do some activeand passive range of motion.
Yeah, yeah, for sure.
Encourage them to exercise withthe exercise stuff.
Now would you?
Now, obviously this is veryperson dependent, but when
(37:03):
you're talking about exercise,you're not talking about cause.
There's this connotation you'llhave with exercises like
involves weights and exercise.
What do you mean, mean by it?
How would you define exercisefor this population?
What would that look like?
Meaghan (37:15):
good question.
In the webinar, we mostly talkabout exercise as like range of
motion, movements or simpleanything that brings you joy,
and I think that is the mostimportant.
So after surgery, range ofmotion I feel like getting back.
(37:36):
Range of motion is superimportant and something you can
work on right away.
All the research on cancer andexercise is based on moderate
intensity exercise.
So most of the studies are havepeople going for a brisk walk
as their moderate intensityexercise.
So that's as simple as it canbe.
(37:58):
It doesn't have to becomplicated, like you don't need
to be going to a CrossFitworkout or to be doing hot yoga
or anything that feel would feeltoo intense.
However, if that is what youenjoy, then maybe that's what
you want to do.
For me, when I had my firstbreast cancer surgery, I was in
the gym three days after surgerybecause that's what made me
(38:22):
feel good.
I felt at home at the gym.
I felt like I could do my rangeof motion exercises at the gym
and that felt really good for mebecause I love going to the gym
.
But for someone else that couldbe just going for a walk in the
woods for half an hour, and allthis the science all says you
for moderate intensity exerciseyou need only 150 minutes a week
(38:45):
for to prevent cancer or toextend your life if you have
terminal cancer, or to preventreoccurrence.
So 150 minutes is not long in aweek that's two and a half hours
a week yeah, yeah, 30, 30minutes, five days yeah, and you
take two days off exactly butyou don't have to yeah, exactly,
(39:10):
and that, and yes, I thinkexercise can be what you want it
to be, if you're, if yourpatient is going through cancer
treatment, I think, and you wantto keep them moving or get them
moving.
It needs, you need to.
Just communication needs to bethe big thing.
What do they like to do, whatdo they hate doing?
Because you're not going totell them to do what they hate
doing.
Eric (39:30):
Yeah, Especially during probably the most stressful time
of their life.
Most people don't like it whenyou give them a sheet and say do
these exercises 10 times, threetimes a day or whatever.
That's totally useless for mostpeople and not meaningful.
No-transcript.
(40:00):
It could be dance, it could beyoga, it could be hiking, it
could be doing push-ups andsit-ups on the floor or whatever
you feel like you can do, couldbe doing push-ups and sit-ups
on the floor or whatever youfeel like you, you can do.
yeah, and when you say themoderate intensity and correct
me if I'm wrong that's usuallyat the level where you can still
have a conversation that'sright.
Meaghan (40:17):
Yeah, yeah, like you're , you feel your heart rate and
your breathing rate increasing,but you could still.
If you're walking with a friend, you could still carry on a
conversation but maybe bebreathing a bit heavy.
Yeah, I think, maybe if you arelike a heart rate person, it's
like a zone two heart rate.
Lower end of zone two, I think,is moderate intensity.
Eric (40:40):
And then if you're into more intense exercise.
Meaghan (40:44):
you only need 75 minutes oh is that right?
Eric (40:47):
Yeah, intense exercise a week to have cancer benefits oh,
I should put the soccer bootsback on, yeah get moving play
once a week.
Okay, I'm done that's it, yeahjust kidding, doesn't work that
way, but yeah, that's great.
Well, that's great, megan,thanks for that.
You provided a good synopsis ofkind of some of the key things
(41:11):
you'll be talking about, and Iknow you go into more detail in
your presentation.
It should be good.
If I remember correctly, Ibelieve yours is the second to
last presentation on the day, soI believe 1 pm Pacific time.
For anybody that wants to takeMegan's course, it's available
on my website, thecebecom slashcourses.
You can get it from there andOctober 5th hopefully people can
(41:37):
attend and for anyone that isgoing to attend live, it is
recorded.
So if you can't make it live,you will have access to it
afterwards.
But if you have any questions,there will be a short Q&A as
well.
Megan will be available for youfor that.
Meaghan (41:52):
Yeah, ask me I'm.
I have an open book.
Ask me anything perfect.
Eric (41:55):
Well, thanks, megan for being here and you have a good
day and we will connect soonyeah, see you in october thank
you for listening.
Please subscribe on yourfavorite podcast network so you
can be notified of futureepisodes.
If you enjoyed this episode,please and share it to your
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A full listing of myself-directed live courses,
(42:15):
blogs, resources and podcastepisodes can be found on my
website, thecebecom.
If you would like to connectwith me directly, I can be
reached through my website, orplease send me a DM through
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This can be done by clicking onthe support button or heading
(42:36):
over to buymeacoffeecom.
Slash helloob.
Thanks for being here and Ihope you enjoyed this episode.
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