March 28, 2025 • 64 mins
Discover the secrets of thriving fruit trees with Susan Poizner, founder of Orchard People and author of multiple books on fruit tree care. In this comprehensive conversation, Susan shares her remarkable journey from BBC journalist to fruit tree expert, sparked by a community orchard project that taught her valuable lessons through trial and error.
Susan reveals the often-misunderstood purpose of pruning – not merely for size control, but as the essential foundation for disease prevention and quality fruit production. She expertly breaks down the science behind why proper pruning creates a healthier environment within the tree canopy, preventing the damp, dark conditions that fungal diseases thrive in. You'll learn the crucial differences between winter pruning (which stimulates growth) and summer pruning (which controls size), plus how to choose between open center and central leader structures based on your local climate conditions.
Beyond pruning, Susan shares practical wisdom on combating common fruit tree challenges like apple maggot, codling moth, and canker. Her innovative solutions include dormant oil sprays, orchard socks for pest prevention, and proper cleanup practices that break disease cycles. You'll discover why soil preparation matters tremendously and how annual compost application supports tree health from the roots up.
Most fascinating is Susan's insight that truly healthy trees naturally repel pests and diseases. By understanding and working with your trees' natural biology, you can create resilient fruit trees that produce abundantly with minimal intervention.
Whether you're an experienced orchardist or planning your first fruit tree, this episode provides the essential knowledge to form a successful partnership with these generous plants that can provide beauty and bounty for decades to come. Ready to transform your relationship with fruit trees? This conversation is your perfect starting point.
You can find out more about Susan and all her resources here:
If there is any topic you would like covered in future episodes, please let me know.
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Until next week
Happy gardening
John
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:13):
how's it going, everybody, and welcome to
episode 269 of master my gardenpodcast.
Now, as I said last week, we'regoing to be chatting all things
fruit trees this week and to dothat I'm too delighted to be
joined by sus Poisoner, andSusan is the educator.
She talks all things fruittrees on the orchard people.
So she has written severalbooks on fruit tree care and she
(00:34):
has a recent book which we'llchat about, and she runs online
courses on pruning fruit treesand general fruit tree care.
So this is going to be a prettydeep topic of you know looking
after fruit trees.
So we've going to be a prettydeep topic of you know looking
after fruit trees.
So we've spoke many times on thepodcast about creating orchards
, about picking and choosingcorrect varieties.
We've recommended certainvarieties.
(00:55):
So now we're going to, Isuppose, a slightly different
angle on it, which is theaftercare of fruit trees.
It's a hugely important piecebecause planting the fruit tree
is one part of ensuring that youhave healthy fruit down the
line.
The second part of it is theaftercare, particularly the
pruning as you go through thevarious years.
(01:16):
So, susan, you're very, verywelcome to Master my Garden
podcast.
Speaker 2 (01:20):
Thank you so much for having me.
Speaker 1 (01:22):
Thank you so much for having me.
So lots all of your workcenters around fruit trees.
So we have, as I said, we havefruit tree care books.
We have the YouTube channel,the Orchard People.
We have a monthly podcast oncare for fruit trees, and so you
(01:42):
do your online courses,training both home owners,
arborists all about fruit treecreation.
So you're going into this in avery, very deep level.
So tell us a little bit aboutthe backstory of the Archer
People before we get into how weactually do this and care for
our fruit trees.
Speaker 2 (02:01):
John.
It's a crazy and very funnystory, I think, because most of
my life I did not do anygardening, nothing.
I was a journalist.
I worked for the BBC WorldService.
I used to live in the UK doingRussian language educational
programs.
I don't know how I came to this, but I do.
So go back to Russian, how Icame to this, but I do Russian,
(02:30):
russian, russian, yeah, russianeducational radio programs to
this.
But I guess what happened was Ilived in the UK for many years
and I came back to Toronto to myparents were aging, it was time
and I was not married at thattime.
And I came back and I met myhusband, cliff, here, and Cliff
is from Trinidad Originally, youknow, when he left, when he was
(02:54):
nine.
And so in Trinidad, john, youjust like throw a seed down in a
tree grows and you get mangoesright, you know like whatever,
or avocados, he remembersgrowing avocados.
So he moved in with me and I hada backyard and he's like, oh,
this is a good backyard, can Iplant something?
Like let's plant something.
And I'm like, oh, no, no, no,no, no, I know what's going to
(03:15):
happen.
You're going to go all out,you're going to plant everything
and I'm going to have to takecare of it.
And I don't do that.
So anyways, long story short,he I said, okay, fine, you can
do like five tomato plants.
And I left the house and I comeback, the entire garden is
planted up with God knowseverything.
But I fell in love withgardening, so much so that I got
(03:39):
a little diverted.
I signed up for a landscapedesign course to try and like
just to understand more aboutplants and about design, and
during that course I realizedthere was one thing that
captivated me, and that wastrees.
Because, like I love vegetables, I love growing veggies and
flowers, but trees are likethese beings.
(04:01):
They come back year after yearLike they're there.
They're there.
It's not like a zucchini plantat come back year after year
Like they're there.
They're there.
It's not like a zucchini plant.
At the end of the season, youdig it out and you, you know,
throw it in the compost.
So these trees?
I started to look at trees onthe street so differently and
then it just dawned on me thatthere are fruit trees, that they
don't just look beautiful,shade our communities, clean our
(04:22):
air, but they also feed us.
These are the most generousbeings ever and they can live up
to like over 100 years.
And I was fascinated.
Long story short, I ended upstarting a community orchard in
my local park and planted thesetrees, and at that point I was
an organic gardener.
(04:43):
I kind of knew what I was doingand I thought that the fruit
trees would be easy and please,john, don't laugh, because
they're so not easy and Iplanted these trees.
The whole community was looking.
This had to be a success.
Some people didn't even wantthis project.
So I knew I had to bemeticulous.
And then the trees got sick,and then they weren't growing
well, well, and then the fruitwasn't good and I had to go and
(05:04):
use my journalistic skills tofigure out what was going wrong.
And how do I take care of thesetrees?
What is the minimum I need todo to keep these trees healthy
and productive?
So that started my journey.
Speaker 1 (05:16):
Wow, that's an interesting story.
Just go back to communitygarden.
You created a community fruitgarden.
How many trees are we talkinghere?
Is this a big?
Is this big garden?
Is it?
Speaker 2 (05:28):
the park is not huge.
Um, it's more of a parkette.
But the original plan that Iworked on with my city
councillor and our parksupervisor was to have, I think
it was, 28 or 34 trees.
Um, there was a communityuprising a petition against
having a fruit farm in the park,and so we went through all the
(05:51):
process of, you know,negotiating whatever.
In the end, we were allowed toplant, I think 14 or 18 trees.
To be honest, I don't countanymore because I think about 15
years ago, well, the agreementwas blah, blah, blah.
I don't know how many trees wehave.
We have as many as we have.
We've got apricots, we've gotapples, we've got Asian pears,
(06:12):
we have plums, service berries,all sorts of good stuff there.
Speaker 1 (06:17):
Yeah, super, the community gardens that allow
fruit trees in.
It's a win-win across so manylevels, because fruit trees in
the, in the flowering stage, canbe extremely beautiful.
So you're, you're ticking thatbox.
Obviously from the, from thepoint of view of biodiversity
(06:39):
you know, flower again usefulfor your pollinators and so on
and they are a fruit tree isvery, very beautiful and it's
it's filling the like.
We've spoke on the podcast overthe last couple of weeks about
trees in urban environments,particularly from the point of
view of shade water.
You're slowing down water andall of those things, but fruit
(07:02):
trees will do that and give theextra benefit of having some
food available from them.
So they really are.
It's not something that'sadapted very much here in
Ireland yet, but it's somethingthat I really hope does, because
it's doing exactly what allother trees do, plus the extra
bonus on the end of it.
So it's great.
Speaker 2 (07:22):
So I'm going to inject here a little warning.
So people used to talk to melike you know, you're the fruit
tree lady.
You love fruit trees and I dolove fruit trees, but I don't
believe in planting themwilly-nilly.
So I think it's great to plantfruit trees, I think our project
is incredible and othercommunity orchard projects are
(07:44):
incredible.
Fruit trees I think our projectis incredible and other
community orchard projects areincredible.
But you can only be successfulwith fruit trees if you care for
them.
So when I first started doingfruit tree care education, there
was one line I was teachingpeople.
I thought if I can teach peoplethis one thing, I am successful
.
Because it was just it.
People were oblivious.
And the one line is fruit treesneed hands-on care.
(08:07):
So if people can understandthat then they can plant fruit
trees, because then they'll say,okay, what's the hands-on care
they need?
Of course they need mulching.
That's fine.
But without correct feeding,pruning, pest and disease
protection they can be verymessy.
And the worst part is if youhave a messy, unhealthy fruit
(08:31):
tree in your backyard andsomebody else is lovingly caring
for their fruit tree a fewyards over or even a few blocks
over the pest and diseaseproblems that your trees attract
will affect everybody.
So it is like having a baby.
It's time commitment, right,it's a lifetime commitment.
(08:54):
And it's like I don't havebabies, but I'm sure if I did, I
would get a book saying how doyou care for this baby, like,
how do you change a diaper, howdo you help them and nurture
them?
Right.
And fruit trees are verysimilar.
So that's why I find itinteresting that you say, oh my
gosh, you've got this huge bodyof work all around fruit trees
(09:14):
and it's true, and I keepgetting deeper and deeper into
it Because they are theseincredibly beautiful but complex
beings.
Then there's so much more tolearn.
Saying that there is a minimumthat you can learn in order to
grow healthy and productivefruit trees.
Speaker 1 (09:30):
You don't have to go deep into the, the weeds, like I
have yeah, so yeah, I supposethat's that's something that I
like to convey on the podcast.
So it's, we talk a lot about,about growing, growing food on
the podcast, and obviously fruittrees have come up a lot
because, as you said, they're ayear-on-year really good source
(09:52):
of food, so long as you get thebasic care principles right.
So let's talk about those basiccare principles.
We, as you said, you have a bigbody of work.
There is levels to all of this,but let's, let's talk about, as
you said, the minimum, theminimum that somebody needs to
care for fruit trees, and maybewe'll get into the individual
pruning and so on.
Speaker 2 (10:12):
It's funny because we were growing our fruit trees in
a public park and in the publicpark we were told no sprays,
like certainly no toxic sprays,no pesticides, no fungicides.
And I'm like, oh, that's fine,I want to grow organically, not
knowing that fruit trees justthey are a magnet for certain
(10:36):
diseases.
Each tree has a finite numberof diseases it can get, like the
diseases that apple trees getaren't the same as the ones that
plum trees get.
But what I did learn after ayear, a few years of, you know,
getting confused, I brought inpeople to teach us and the first
(10:57):
and most important thing that Ilearned was pruning.
The reason is pruning.
People think, oh, it's just tomake your tree smaller, so that
when your tree is, you know, oldand it's too high, you just cut
it a little bit.
And that's maybe one goal ofpruning, but not the main goal.
The main goal of pruning is tokeep your tree healthy and
(11:20):
productive, so healthy in termsof preventing disease.
Wow, how does pruning preventdisease?
That was the first thing I hadto get my head around.
And the second thing is howwould cutting off branches make
my tree more productive andproduce better quality fruit?
So let's go into each of those.
How does pruning make your treehealthier?
(11:43):
How does it make it moreresistant to disease?
Well, I like to talk about aircirculation.
If your fruit tree has a wholetangle of branches that once
they leaf out they're alltightly, you know, curled up
together, all the branches andthe leaves are touching each
other.
Then when it rains and you guyslive in a rainy climate, I'm
(12:05):
sure rainier than us when itrains, fungal spores hang out in
the canopy.
They love it.
It's dark, it's damp andthey're like this is heaven, I
love being in this tree and thenyou get fungal diseases, like
rust, which you get in applesand pears.
(12:27):
Basically, I think 80% of allthe diseases that fruit trees
get are fungal diseases 80%.
Okay.
So that's what happens when thecanopy is crowded.
But if you start to selectivelyremove branches not trim them at
the edges and like, do a circlearound your tree to make it
look like a lollipop, not that,but remove entire branches from
(12:50):
the inside of your tree you'reopening it up for air
circulation.
And if there's good aircirculation, then the air blows
in and dries out the canopy.
And to make it even better, ifyou prune correctly, and not
only is there good aircirculation, but there's also
sunlight penetration.
The sun will dry the canopy too.
(13:11):
So with correct pruning you aretaking out a whole bunch of
potential problems.
So let's talk about fruitproduction.
Why would correct pruning helpyour tree produce better quality
fruit?
Well, let's think about you.
Okay, you wake up in themorning, you've got 10 jobs to
(13:34):
do.
If you do all 10 jobs, you aregoing to be running around all
day.
You're going to be exhaustedand you probably won't do each
job really really well.
But if you say you know what,today I'm going to focus on just
seven jobs and the other threeI'll save till tomorrow, you'll
have time to do them better.
(13:55):
It's the same thing with fruittrees.
They have a finite amount ofenergy, especially in the early
spring when they're doing awhole bunch of work they're
opening their buds, they aremaking blossoms, they're
creating fruit.
So at that time of year, ifthey have a whole bunch of
branches to feed with energyfrom their root system, then
(14:16):
each branch will get a littlebit of energy.
It'll grow a teeny tiny bit,maybe more than a bit or
whatever, and it'll have someenergy for fruit, but not a lot.
But if you selectively removesome of those branches, then all
of a sudden, the remainingbranches get more energy, they
can grow longer, they can bestronger and they can produce
(14:38):
better quality fruit.
There's some more nuances there, but that is the broad.
Speaker 1 (14:43):
That is just an easy way to look at why pruning helps
so much and why it is thecornerstone of how you care for
your fruit trees way of puttingit, especially on the disease
(15:07):
part, because you're right inthat a lot of people view
pruning as the shaping of thetree, which it it is to a
certain extent, but if you'vechosen the right rootstock and
so on, that's not really true.
You should be, you should beworking with something that's
suitable for your garden anyway.
So then it comes down to fruitproduction, which, again, you
know, most people know about,but yeah, that's something I
knew.
But to have it pointed out likethat is is really good.
(15:29):
So by doing correct pruningyou're opening, opening up and
not allowing, I suppose, havensfor, for fungal diseases.
That's.
It's very well put.
Speaker 2 (15:40):
Thank you, thank you, and I have to explain this a
lot, and so I kind of think ofbecause it's so counterintuitive
.
It's like once I was teaching Iwent to Virginia in the States
to teach some arborists aboutpruning and for some bizarre
reason they wanted me to do thepruning demo before teaching
people why you do this pruning.
(16:00):
So there's all these arboristsstanding around and I'm like
starting to demo by pruning avery young tree, like I was a
young apricot or some peach orsomething and I go in with my
hand pruners and I'mdemonstrating, I'm explaining
how I'm going to take off anentire branch, like this tree
has maybe 10 branches, and I goin and I'm cutting off one of
these young, healthy branches.
(16:30):
One of the arborists almostpulled me back to stop me.
She said don't do that, it's ahealthy branch.
Why are you doing that?
And that's the other mindblowing thing about pruning you
are taking beautiful, healthybranches and you're cutting them
off and throwing them away.
So there's just a bit of achange in mindset.
Speaker 1 (16:41):
That's necessary bit of a change in mindset that's
necessary, yeah.
So when you know the how-topart of pruning, what are so?
Obviously we're looking to openup the center, so what and how
do we go about pruning?
Speaker 2 (17:01):
say, a two, three-year-old apple tree, for
example.
Well, here's then.
This is the thing.
Now there's two structures.
One structure is what youdiscussed, which may be popular
over there, and it's the opencenter.
So your tree ends up lookinglike a goblet or a cup and
there's no central branch in themiddle.
And then there's a secondarystructure which is called
central leader, where you haveone branch in the middle and
(17:22):
you're creating a sort ofChristmas tree shape.
There's pros and cons for bothof those.
They are both very fruitful.
You're producing fruit.
Central leader can be a littlebit sturdier in a windy climate,
whereas open center gets theselong branches that in a wind,
(17:43):
like a heavy wind, the branchescan easily break and then,
whoops, you've lost a whole.
You know it's a whole big dealwith with, uh, central leader
it's sturdier.
But now you say how would youprune a two or three year old
apple tree?
Let's take it back ultimately,john, and if you've been talking
about rootstocks, you'veprobably been talking
(18:04):
encouraging people to plant bareroot trees which are not in a
pot, which are very young.
So the ideal way is to pruneyour fruit tree the first time
you prune.
It is on the day you plant yourbare root tree the very day.
So you plant the bare root treein the ground, you water it in
(18:26):
and you make something called awhip cut.
So your tree a bare root treethat's young just looks like a
stick or a branch with roots.
There's no side branches, andthat's ideal.
That's what you want theyoungest tree possible.
Because it's like sculpting.
You're sculpting your perfectstructure for a tree.
So you do your whip cut.
You probably are cutting offthe top third of the tree at
(18:50):
least, and often you are cuttingit up to oh goodness, I'm going
to say in inches.
Let's say you'll cut it at 34inches off the ground, not sure,
okay.
So then what you're doing is,by removing the top of that whip
, you are removing the hormones.
They are called auxin hormones.
(19:11):
Auxin hormones make it go uphigher and higher.
They pull the tips higher andhigher.
But what happens is, when youcut off those auxin hormones, it
gives the side buds anopportunity to flourish, right,
because that auxin is verydomineering.
It's like you, side buds, youdon't do much.
I'm gonna lead here.
Once you get rid of the auxins,the side buds start opening up
(19:35):
and you start getting sidebranches, and so what you would
do is that year.
So you do your whip cut in yearone and in year two you choose
your scaffold branches, yourside branches, out of the
options the tree gives you.
You're not going to keep anyside branches that are below
your knee because that's too lowfor fruit.
(19:55):
Okay, depending on whichstructure you're using, you are
going to choose and let's talkabout open center.
You will choose to choose, andlet's talk about open center.
You will choose three to fivescaffold branches near the top
they should be a couple ofinches apart, maybe you know so
that it just keeps it moresturdy and each of those
(20:15):
branches will go in a differentdirection.
So if there's four of them, itcould be one goes north, one
goes south, one goes east, onegoes west, but they all have to
be in a different direction, not, you know, three, four of them
on one side and one on the other, and those you will nurture to
become your structure.
So the problem is, if peoplewait until year two or three,
(20:38):
you've missed the opportunity tosculpt your tree into the ideal
structure.
You can still prune it, and youshould, but now, once the tree
is older, what I tell people todo is learn how to do the
structure and then adapt it toyour tree.
So sometimes you can take anestablished tree and look at it
(21:01):
and say, okay, I can make thisinto a central leader tree.
This is how.
But even if you can't, once youunderstand all the science
behind pruning, you can look atany tree, even like a
20-year-old tree that's beenneglected, and slowly renovate
it so that it is a healthy andproductive tree.
I'll just throw one more thingin.
(21:23):
If you're pruning an older treetree, I'll just say one, throw
one more thing in.
If you're pruning an older treeany like older than three, four
years old, you can only pruneoff 25% of the canopy.
So let's say you buy my bookFruit Tree Pruning it's called
Fruit Tree Pruning, the scienceand art of cultivating healthy
fruit trees.
You buy my book and you read it.
Then you're looking at yourtree and say, okay, I can make
(21:46):
that shape, I can do do this.
But if you do it all in oneyear it'll freak out your tree.
You have to do it slowly.
So 25 of you know, correctingthe structure one year and then
wait for it to grow and then thenext year do another 25 and in
four years you're going to havethe perfect structure and a
really healthy tree thatproduces great fruit.
Speaker 1 (22:06):
Yeah, that's interesting and loads, loads in
there.
I've got to go back to yourvery, your very original point.
It's funny the goblet styleopen center pruning is the most
popular here, is the mostpopular here.
And it's interesting that yousay it's less suited to a windy
(22:26):
climate because we are, andincreasingly so, we're getting a
lot of wind.
Well, we've always had wind,but recently we've been getting
quite storm-like conditions, um,on a more regular basis.
So it would seem, then, thatyou know the, the amount of
fruit trees that are in, thatyou know that open center are
(22:50):
not ideally suited to thechanging climate.
So maybe we'll just delve alittle bit further into the,
into the center.
Speaker 2 (22:56):
Yeah, let me.
Yeah, well, let's okay.
So I love that you made thatpoint and thank you so much for
sharing that with me.
The benefit of the goblet ofthe open center structure is
another thing that you guys have, which is a really wet climate.
You can't do better at keepingthe canopy dry than that open
(23:19):
center shape.
That's why your growers theredo that shape and I guess
they're willing, or at leastmaybe you say the wind is
getting worse and worse, somaybe they were willing to put
up with the wind.
You know, if you have to, ifyou've only got one backyard
tree, there are ways that youcan support long branches with.
You know, wooden setups I'm notmuch of a woodworker, but yes,
(23:43):
so that's interesting.
So on the one hand, it's sogreat for the open canopy, is
great for wet climates, but nowlet's talk about windy climates.
So here's what happens withcentral leader.
You have this one central trunkthat turns into the top branch,
one central trunk that turnsinto the top branch, and you
(24:10):
have, let's say, two or three Icall them platforms on it.
So you're doing the whip cut inyear one, but each year you
select, let's say, four branchesin different directions north,
south, east, west, but theleader With open center, you're
getting rid of the leader.
There's no leader.
Then you let the leader go up alittle bit further, so you've
(24:30):
got the first platform.
It's at, let's say, knee height.
You let your leader go upfurther and, let's say, at my
waist height I can have platformtwo, another four, let's say
four branches going in slightlydifferent directions so they're
not shading the ones below it.
Then, finally, if I want thethird platform, it can be at my
(24:50):
shoulders.
And this is just.
It depends on the rootstock.
You have the size of the tree,the vigor of the tree.
The idea is there that you haveabout two feet of open space
between platforms where thetrunk is clean, there's no
branches.
If anything pops up, you'resnipping it off.
Even rubbing it off with thetree is young.
You could take your finger.
(25:11):
You can rub off the littleshoots if they're in the wrong
place.
Now, why does this structure?
Why is it so strong?
Because you get more branchesand they're shorter.
Each time you head back orshorten a branch, you are again.
That branch has limited amountof energy.
(25:32):
So you are shortening thebranch to fit into your triangle
shape.
Because you have three platforms.
The top platform is sort ofsmaller than the middle one and
the middle one is smaller thanthe bottom one.
So it's like a triangle andeach time you shorten a branch
to fit into that structure,there is more energy in the
remaining buds and the branch isable to thicken up more.
(25:55):
It just has more energy foreverything, for fruit, for
thickening up, which is calledsecondary tree growth.
So you get this kind of likestout little, strong, little
muscular tree.
So I'm tall and willowy, right,I'm kind of tall, I got long
arms, I got long legs.
My husband is sort of shorterand he's like he's got lots of
(26:19):
strength right and it's becauseof his structure's got shorter
branches.
He's got shorter arms butstronger, uh, you know, upper
body, shorter legs.
So that's the differencebetween open center and central
leader.
Speaker 1 (26:36):
Yeah, yeah, it strikes me.
So, yeah, that makes sense.
Now that the the reason like weare a very wet place on and I,
yeah, I guess it comes to abalance and act, which one is
worse?
And I would say the damp iscertainly, certainly whiter.
They're all gone for the goblet, the goblet style pruning, I
(26:58):
think from a back, a backyardperspective, which most of the
listeners are, you know.
Uh, I think the goblet styleprobably suits better as well,
because in my head I'm thinkingat at maturity, it's a lot
smaller in terms of height tomanage, I would imagine.
Am I correct, that's?
Speaker 2 (27:16):
interesting because chair, like, for instance,
cherry trees oh my god, they getbig, you know, um.
And and also the time of yearis important when you prune in
order to reduce size, and we cantalk about that.
That makes a big difference.
But there's some trees like,yeah, like I, like your point,
um, I guess, if you want to keepit, I would love.
(27:41):
If I lived in ireland I woulddo an experiment and if I had
enough space, I would experimentwith some central leader trees,
because they do.
They are also good for aircirculation, but I suppose you
know, because it has platforms,even though these branches don't
exactly they shouldn't shadeeach other out.
(28:01):
Maybe it would retain a littlebit more moisture.
Yeah, it's like you say you,you have to pick one, the lesser
evil and decide which one to gofor.
But yeah, if you are, if yourconcern is and it should be the
the next thing that we shouldprobably talk about is how do
(28:21):
you keep a tree smaller?
And it has to do with the timeof year that you prune.
So, for instance, we talked alittle bit about the energy of a
fruit tree in the winter.
So the winter the fruit treehas energy in its root systems.
The previous year it had leaves.
(28:42):
It made lots of energy throughphotosynthesis and in the fall,
when you see the leaf colorchanges, that's because it's
pulling the energy out of theleaves and putting it in the
roots so it stores.
It's like a little pantry.
Over the winter You've got allyour goodies in your root system
and then the spring comes andthat's when that energy comes up
and it powers the growth of thebuds and the blossoms in the
(29:03):
fruit.
Energy comes up and it powersthe growth of the buds and the
blossoms in the fruit.
So that's why I explainedearlier that if you remove let's
say you have 10 branches if youremove three of those branches,
each of the remaining brancheswill be longer and stronger.
So winter pruning stimulatesgrowth.
It makes a small.
If you plant a young tree andyou want it to grow faster and
(29:23):
bigger, that's a good time to doit.
But if you take a cherry treethat is already too big and
you're like, okay, I'm going todo some winter pruning on this
tree, what's going to happen?
The cherry tree has big rootswith lots of energy and you're
removing some branches to createyour structure, or even you
know if you're making it into alollipop, whatever you're doing
(29:45):
with it, you know trimmingaround the edge or whatever
you're doing.
You don't know what you'redoing.
Let's say, what's going tohappen is it's going to
stimulate even more growthbecause it's got all this energy
in its root system.
It's winter and it'll havefewer buds, fewer branches, so
each branch will grow more.
But here's what happens If youwait.
(30:07):
So you let the season start,you let the cherry tree or which
it can be, a big old apple treeor anything bring up the energy
and power, growth of blossomsand even fruit.
You let it do its thing'srunning a marathon, it's just
running, running, running,running.
And then, after blossom time,after the petal falls, petals
(30:33):
fall, then you start pruning.
It doesn't have as much energyto bounce back.
It's already used up its energy.
With this marathon you'recutting off the energy you.
You're cutting off brancheswith, you know, spent blossoms
and baby fruitlets even on it.
With our cherry trees inparticular, because here we get
cherries in the beginning ofJuly, it's not too late to prune
(30:57):
them.
So we take because our treesare big despite all the pruning
we take our pole pruners and weremove entire branches, knowing
that they're not part of ourstructure with the cherries on
them, so that we can get thehigh up cherries and we share it
with the community.
We have a lot of fun.
But at that point the tree isnot going to grow bigger and
bigger for two reasons.
(31:18):
One, it doesn't have lots ofenergy in the root system to
power that.
It's now making energy out ofthe leaves.
But the second thing is hormoneshave shifted.
The auxin hormones that makebranches longer were active in
the winter At this point.
Auxin hormones, they're not soactive.
But there's I think it's calledcytokinins, I'm probably not
(31:39):
pronouncing it right there'shormones that become active in
the summer that tell the treehey, this is a good time to put
energy towards buds for fruitfor next year.
So essentially, when you prunein the summer, the energy is
going to go to fruit production.
So everything we're doing, john, with our tree is a partnership
(32:01):
.
We are working with it, withthe science, so that we
understand it, so we can havewhat everybody wants.
Even the tree wants to behealthy and productive.
It wants to fulfill its purpose, um, so we're working together,
knowing and understanding howthe trees work, to have a
healthy tree and, uh, qualityharvest yeah, man, that makes
(32:22):
sense.
Speaker 1 (32:23):
they sense, I suppose , as we head for the end of
March here what, and we maybelook at the.
So cherries we do grow here,but they typically they're in
certain parts of the country orthey're undercover.
And what are most popular fruittrees here, I guess, are apples
(32:44):
, as you would expect, plums,certainly popular as well, and
pears to a certain extent, andagain that can be quite regional
.
They do better in certain partsof the country.
So, looking at the main treetypes of fruit here, ideal
(33:04):
pruning periods for those three.
Speaker 2 (33:08):
Brilliant, that's so brilliant.
Okay, plums are very much likecherries.
Often not always.
Sometimes they have these long,swooping branches that just
want to be open center.
The way they grow, sometimesdepending on the cultivar,
depending on the rootstock,whatever they grow to, the open
(33:30):
center structure Plums everyonethat I've ever worked with are
vigorous.
So that means that in the firstthree years of formative
pruning it's called formativepruning in the first three years
you probably will winter pruneit because you want it to create
a structure quickly.
So you know, in my book Ioutline the stages each year.
(33:51):
What you do Stage one is yearone is whip cut.
What you do year two and yearthree.
So you create the structure inthe winter in the first three
years.
After that, once it reaches thesize you want it to reach, then
you summer prune.
We love pruning in our park.
It is the funnest thing that wedo.
It is such a wonderfulinteractive thing.
(34:13):
I went to the park and Ithought, man, we have like zero
to winter prune now Nothing,hardly anything.
And so here I've got this teamof people, everybody's going to
have a hand pruner, everybodywants to do the formative
pruning, which is the funnestpart, and there's like only
cleanup pruning to do, andthat's mostly in the summer.
So here we're going to allstand around three trees and say
(34:36):
, okay, what cuts will we make,and then it'll take five minutes
, it'll be done.
So the older trees use summerprune Okay, and not.
The older trees use summerprune okay, and not on a rainy
day, by the way.
You keep it dry, because againfungal diseases can go in those
cuts.
So apples, similar apples,mostly the ones that we grow
here, except for certain diseaseresistant varieties, are pretty
(34:59):
slow growing for the firstthree to five years.
We winter prune the first threeyears.
We years, we winter prune thefirst three years.
We're creating the structureand the way we did it because we
didn't really know what we weredoing at first.
It maybe took five years tocreate the structure.
After that you look and see howbranchy is this tree.
If it's got a million branchesand sort of water sprouts
(35:20):
sticking up for upward, you knowsprouts on all the branches
summer prune.
There's too many branches.
You want to keep that openstructure, summer prune.
And then we were talking aboutpears.
Pears are similar to apples inthat they can be slow growing.
Some pears are interesting,like Asian pears.
(35:44):
They don't really need a lot ofpruning sometimes.
Sometimes they just don't growa lot of branches.
They keep growing spurs like afruiting spurs.
We've got an Asian pear in ourpark and, yeah, I mean it could
use a little prettying up, butin terms of air circulation it's
perfect.
Speaker 1 (36:02):
so, yeah, that's what I would do for those three okay
, so we're looking three to fiveyears winter pruning and then
summer pruning after that, onceyou have the formative shape in
place.
Speaker 2 (36:13):
Exactly, unless you again are looking at let's say,
there was a windstorm and you'relooking at a tree and it lost a
bunch of branches and you thinkwe need some new scaffold
branches to grow from the tree.
Then you may want a winterprune because you want to spur
vigorous growth.
So once you know the science,you can adapt it to the tree
(36:35):
yeah, makes sense.
Speaker 1 (36:36):
I gotta take a step back.
We spoke a lot about fungaldiseases.
Um, here in ireland it is allpretty much fungal diseases as
well, and the one that causesthe most problems and I'm sure
it's the same for you guys iscanker.
Is that, I suppose, the mostprominent disease or the most
troublesome disease that you see?
Speaker 2 (36:56):
Canker we have, and often it's a symptom of
different fungal diseases.
Sometimes it can be bacterialas well, depending on what the
tree is.
Yes, so canker like.
The amazing thing is, once youknow how to prune correctly, how
to remove a branch safely sothat it heals properly.
You can't just hack offbranches.
(37:17):
You have to leave the collarand you may have done a podcast
on this but you have to cut justpast this sort of.
It looks like a littleturtleneck around the base of
any branch.
You have to leave that littleround circle protruding bit and
then you cut it and then it canheal.
(37:39):
So the important thing withcanker is you need to remove it
when you see it Not on a rainyday, but when it's a dry day.
You go out, you see some cankeron a branch.
It can be oozing goop, it canlook hard and crispy and black.
And if you decide you want toremove the whole branch, you can
(38:02):
do that.
But if you just want to shortenthe branch, make sure you cut a
couple of inches before you seethe canker and don't put the
branch in your compost pile.
Get it off the site, put it ina bag, because how do things
spread the pathogen.
Even if it's sitting beside thetree and the branch is no
longer alive, that pathogen willjust blow around.
So canker you have to remove.
(38:24):
As you see, if it's on thetrunk of the tree and this has
happened with us before onvarious trees if it's young tree
you're probably going to haveto throw out the whole tree.
But if it's an older tree youcan actually take a box cutter
like a box cutting knife, put asheet down around the bottom of
the tree.
Put a sheet down around thebottom of the tree and cut a
(38:49):
circle around the infected areaso that the circle only includes
clean, like healthy tissue andyou're scraping out all of the
bark and the dead or sick tissueunderneath it, scraping that
out onto the sheet so it doesn'tgo into the soil and right down
to the heartwood, to that hardpart of the tree that would be
like you know people would useto make things with right and so
(39:12):
by carving that out.
Then what I would do is takesomething like garden sulfur and
spray some garden sulfur, someantifungal organic spray, in
there and the trees can heal.
The trees that have had cankerthat we've had to take down
completely are those that havecanker all over the place.
It's in the trunk, it's out ofevery branch, it's already gone
(39:34):
through the entire system of thetree and in that case, my
friend, you have to take downthe whole tree in order to
protect the rest of your trees.
Mm-hmm, you know.
So we have to be detached.
You know, we talked earlierabout community orchard projects
and people come to me and say,well, we want to dedicate a tree
to people who pay for the tree.
(39:56):
And I'm thinking, maybe don'tdo that.
Can you imagine?
You know the John Jones treeand it's sick all the time.
You know it's sick all the time.
And then finally it's likesorry, john, we got to cut down
your tree.
We'll plant another one in yourname.
And it's like, yeah, no, maybenot.
So don't personalize them inthat way though.
We love our trees Like I'm soattached to them, but if I have
(40:17):
to cut them down, I will.
Speaker 1 (40:26):
Yeah, for the greater good of the rest of the trees
makes sense.
Yes, yeah, I planted some appletrees well, some apples, plums,
pears a couple years ago andlast, last year, one of the
trees got canker in just toomany places and it just had to
go.
And yeah, it's you prefer if itdidn't, but that's just the way
.
In order to make sure the restof them stayed healthy, it has
to go yeah, exactly yeah, um,then, in terms of in terms of
(40:49):
pests.
So again, pruning is going tohelp in terms of pests.
But, and to be fair, and Imight just look at the kind of
the most common examples hereagain, we have the apple moth
and the plum moth, which youknow, they're probably, again,
the most troublesome things interms of pests.
(41:09):
Obviously we have some issueswith birds as well.
At at the stage where the fruitis is ripe, the birds are
watching it just as eagerly asthe, as the homeowner is, and if
you don't get there on time youcould find that they're gone
overnight.
But I think apple moth and plummoth are the two that cause the
most problems here.
Any kind of good tips aroundthose?
Speaker 2 (41:30):
Yeah, so here we call them, and I think it's the same
insect, more or less, wherewe've got apple maggot and
codling moth.
Speaker 1 (41:39):
Codling moth yeah.
Speaker 2 (41:40):
Codling moth.
So we've got those two, and forplum, it's plum corculio.
Speaker 1 (41:47):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (41:47):
So, okay, apple mug and codling moth are somewhat
easier to deal with in the sensethat.
Well, let me backtrack.
I'm just trying to think.
When you understand the lifecycle of the insect, so when you
understand where it lays itseggs, where it lives, does it
(42:10):
live in the soil?
Does it live in the bark?
One thing we know about manypests is they hide over winter
in the cracks and crevices ofthe tree and they lay their eggs
there of the tree and they laytheir eggs there.
So the first thing that we tryto always do is to give our
trees a dormant oil spray.
(42:31):
Here we use something calledlime sulfur mixed with dormant
oil.
It's a kit.
You buy lime sulfur and dormantoil, but everywhere you go you
can get some sort of dormant oiland what you do is, before the
buds open probably too late foryou guys now it's about time for
that here Before the buds open,when the temperature is
(42:53):
slightly above freezing, youspray the tree with this oil and
coat the tree.
You put it in all the cracksand crevices, but you coat the
entire tree and hopefully you'rekeeping your trees nice and
compact.
So you can do this and itsmothers overwintering insects
that are inside there.
So that takes care of a wholebunch of insects.
Now, sadly, I don't think applemaggot and codling moth are
(43:18):
amongst them, but there'll beother ones that you'll get rid
of in that, for apple maggot andcodling moth need to know that
these insects though the, the.
They lay their eggs under theskin of the baby fruit.
So you think your tree isperfect.
They're out there laying theireggs and then you start to see
oozing goop coming from yourlittle apples on the tree and
(43:41):
you're like, oh, that doesn'tlook good.
Sure, doesn't look good,because as that fruit grows, the
egg inside hatches and it turnsinto a maggot or a worm and it
destroys your fruit.
So one way you can stop that isif you see a fruitlet that is
infected, that's oozing goop youpull it off.
(44:03):
You don't put it in yourcompost, you put in a bag, you
take it off the site, you put itin municipal garbage, whatever,
okay, rubbish, get rid of it,okay.
But it's even better to preventthat from happening in the first
place, and a trick that Ilearned because we weren't
allowed to do sprays issomething called orchard socks.
(44:23):
They're also called maggotbarriers, john, I don't know if
women do this, but if men dothis too.
But when you are trying onwomen's shoes, you go to the
shoe store and if you're wearinglike sandals, they're like ew,
don't put your shoe, your foot,you're in the shoe.
Here's a try on sock and it's alittle nylon.
You slip it on your, your footand then you put your foot in
(44:45):
the shoe just to keep everythinga little clean.
Um, so these orchard socks areessentially try on socks.
You can even get them on amazonor whatever they're called try
on socks.
So what you do is you go outwhen the fruit is just about the
size of like, uh, like an inchin diameter or something or less
(45:06):
, and you slip these littlesockets on the apple and tie up
the top.
So they're nylon, so theystretch.
As the fruitlet grows, thenylon stretches and it prevents
those insects from laying theireggs under the skin of the fruit
.
We have done that for 15 years.
(45:27):
We've done experiments with itwhere because it takes time, you
know we get the crew out we puton as many socks as we can on
the fruitlets.
The fruitlets that are covered99% clean.
The ones that aren't coveredget the apple maggot or coddling
moth problems.
So it works, but it's timeconsuming, but it works and you
(45:53):
can at least do some of yourfruit like that.
And then the final thing whichwe don't do, and I don't know if
you guys have access to itthere is a spray called kaolin
clay.
It is just clay, it's calledsurround in the States and you
can spray your tree.
You follow the instructions andit makes the fruit sort of
(46:13):
scratchy so that when theinsects land it's uncomfortable,
they don't want to be there,and then they go and do
something else.
And the final tactic for thoseguys is traps.
And the final tactic for thoseguys is traps, traps.
You get a sticky trap and youget a coddling moth allure so it
smells like certain hormones.
(46:34):
It attracts the male insectswho come to smell this nice
smell of girls basically, andthen they land in the trap which
is like the shape of a diamond,and they get stuck and they die
.
So the women, the women, thegirl insects are flying around
(46:54):
with nobody to meet with, sothey don't have eggs, so they
don't have babies.
And final tip Okay, I knowthat's a lot of tips, but the
final tip is in the fall, whenyou've got fallen fruit around
the tree and diseased leavesaround the tree.
Clean everything upmeticulously, do not put it in
the compost, Put it in a bag,get it off the site, put it in
(47:15):
municipal rubbish, whatever andyou're getting rid of the
pathogens from next year.
You're getting rid of thepathogens from next year.
You're getting rid of thefungal spores.
You're getting rid of any wormsthat are inside those apples
that will just overwinter andcome back full force next year
even more, more and more.
So.
The more you ignore things, theworse they get from year to
(47:37):
year.
Things do not go away on theirown.
Speaker 1 (47:40):
Yeah, I think that's a really good point for anyone
listening, because disease hereis definitely the, I suppose,
the biggest struggle that peoplehave when it comes to fruit
trees.
But what you've just talkedabout is exactly what you said
at the start that it's importantto view this as not necessarily
(48:00):
difficult, but continuous careof the tree.
Not necessarily difficult, butcontinuous care of the tree.
And so every year you do alittle bit.
You know pruning husbandry interms of cleaning up the area,
taking away the fruit treatmentsand every year, by doing a
little bit, your tree is gettingstronger, your tree is getting
more resilient as you go along,and while you'll always have to
(48:23):
do a little bit, once you getthat establishment right, it
leads to successful fruiting foryears to come.
No-transcript.
Speaker 2 (48:37):
That's very well said .
That is so very well saidBecause it doesn't have to be a
full-time job.
It's once you know what to do,you just do it Like again with
the parent situation.
I mean, I guess parents justget used to feeding their kids
three times a day.
They don't forget to feed theirkids three times a day, right,
they don't forget to put theirkids to bed, or you know.
(48:59):
And then the kids get older andthey get more self-sufficient.
Fruit trees also get moreself-sufficient, as you were
saying.
They get healthier with thiscare, so that they are more
resilient.
I did a podcast my podcast awhile back, an interview with an
entomologist who has discoveredthat healthy trees are not of
interest to fruit tree pests.
(49:21):
So you asked about the plumcorculio and that is a really,
really tricky one.
I can't give you as easysolutions for that one, but
saying that the healthier yourtree is, the less interesting it
is for all of these pests.
Again, with children in theplayground, the big bully.
(49:42):
The big bully doesn't pick onthe strong kid that's
self-confident, that you knowdoesn't have a problem.
It's like what's wrong with you.
The bully picks on the onethat's a little weaker, a little
insecure, not super confident,and it's in terms of fruit trees
and other plants.
What it is is.
A healthy tree has a lot ofsweetness in it, in the leaves
(50:08):
and whatever.
It's almost too sweet.
So the insect they can't digestit.
They like weak trees.
The weak trees exude somethingthat they know.
This is the one to target.
Trees exude something that theyknow.
This is the one to target.
So everything I teach in my youknow online courses and in my
(50:29):
books is about how to get, bringup your trees so that they're
the strong, confident ones, sothat they are resilient in the
face of climate change, in theface of pests, in the face of
diseases.
Just like we need to beresilient in this world, you
know, we want our trees to beresilient too.
Speaker 1 (50:43):
That's brilliant, because that is something that
gets repeated, probably on amonthly basis on the podcast.
You know, healthy plants ingeneral, whether we're talking
about roses, whether we'retalking about vegetables,
whether we're talking aboutfruit trees, healthy plants are
100%.
You mentioned having anentonomous on who was able to
(51:05):
show you specifically inrelation to fruit trees, but
it's true of all plants, of all,as I say, roses, vegetables,
whatever the healthier the plant, the less susceptible they are
to any disease or any pest.
That's going so.
That's.
That's good that you've, youknow, emphasized that and that
there is some kind of proofthere as well.
Speaker 2 (51:24):
There is proof, it's amazing.
And his expertise.
He was talking about fruittrees, but his expertise is all
plants, I think all edibleplants, and so people might want
to listen to that podcastbecause he is brilliant.
At some point I've written awhole bunch of books, but at
some point I want to do a bookon pests and diseases, and boy
will I be featuring the sciencearound that because it is
(51:48):
fascinating.
Speaker 1 (51:49):
Yeah, we speak a lot about soil health.
In relation to soil health,translating to a healthy plant,
how do you see soil health, orwhat role do you see that soil
health has in fruit trees?
Because, again, it may seem topeople fruit tree, it's up above
the ground that there isn't ahuge connection between the two.
(52:10):
You know maybe less so thanthere is when you're growing
your vegetables or whatever, butit is still key and what you
know in terms of your garden,your fruit trees, what do you do
to encourage soil health?
Oh, first of all, I got to tellyou, you know, in terms of your
garden, your fruit trees, whatdo you do to encourage soil
health?
Speaker 2 (52:23):
Oh, first of all, I got to tell you you know it
sounds like I'm smart now or Iknew nothing.
You know, I really knew nothingwhen I started and I'm only
smart because I interview smartpeople I'm not really smart, but
when I was astonished when Ifirst learned that people who
grow orchards spend three yearspreparing the soil we had this
(52:44):
park that was like, hey, let'splant some fruit trees there.
I hadn't even dug a hole to seewhat the quality of the soil
looked like.
I was like sure we can plantfruit trees here.
And it's terrible.
Really compact soil, right.
But what professional growerswill do is they decide where
they find the site.
It's got to be full sun.
They will test the soil to seethe quality of the soil.
(53:07):
They will plant cover cropsrepeatedly and add organic
matter and then till it in, andthey do this for three years and
then they plant their trees.
Now saying that most homeownersaren't going to do that, and
rightly so.
Hopefully their gardens areokay.
But even if you can amend thesoil six months before you can
(53:30):
plant the tree, or a year orwhatever, just start thinking
about where that tree is goingto go just like you would be
preparing the bedroom for thenewborn baby, you know, painting
the walls or doing whatever youknow, having a baby carriage or
whatever you do.
So preparing the soil inadvance, even if the minimum I
would do now is, if you wantyou've said, susan, I want to
(53:52):
plant an apple tree in mybackyard I'd say, okay, first
thing, before you buy the tree,go, dig a hole in the area that
you plant your tree.
Is there 12 inches of goodquality soil, well-drained, nice
soil?
If it looks a little bit tooheavy, add some compost, give it
some time.
Maybe do a little cover crop ofclover or something.
Let's just get it a little bitready for the fruit tree.
(54:15):
The next thing I would say is,every year in the spring, say is
every year in the spring, I doit before, if possible, before
the tree leaves out, put down alayer of compost, two inches of
compost, around the roots of thetree, knowing that the feeder
(54:37):
roots of the tree the little,tiny, little fresh roots they're
the ones that take in water andnutrition.
They're going to be at theouter edge of the canopy, not
really close to the trunk, somulching just two inches around
the trunk is not going to do thetrick.
You want to have a beautifulbig mulch circle, always
extending it so that it goestowards the edge of the canopy.
(54:57):
And people are like, what Areyou kidding?
And I'm absolutely not kidding,that's what I do.
I keep it all clean up untilthe edge of the canopy if
possible.
So every spring you give thetree compost.
Here's why I told you that inthe winter the tree has energy
in its root system.
Once that energy is used up, itneeds new energy.
(55:20):
So if you put compost aroundthose roots, it will start to
break down.
By that root energy is burnt upand it will feed the tree and
then the tree will have leavesand it will feed itself
(55:41):
important with compost.
And if you want, you can putwood chips on top of that.
Wood chips break down slower.
So I would always put twoinches of compost first or one
inch of rotted or compostedmanure.
That's another option.
So those are the main soilhealth things that I can tell
you about.
In my book Grow Fruit TreesFast, I talk about how you can
use holistic sprays just dilutedmolasses, essentially to feed
(56:02):
your tree and how that feeds thesoil.
It's a little bit of ascientific thing which I think
probably your listeners aregetting a little tired of
science.
But there's so many things youcan do to help the soil, but I
think I gave you some of thebasic ones, yeah yeah, and it's
something we talk a lot about onthe podcast anyway.
Speaker 1 (56:22):
So I'm sure that they , you know they, they get the
gist of it.
Um, but it is, it is true thathealthy, healthy soil, healthy
plants, healthy plant, lessdisease, so it's it's all
connected and it's important tobe aware of that before we we
chat about your podcast, yourbook and your youtube channel.
I have a question.
Uh, it's a question from my owngarden.
(56:43):
I was gifted a family plum tree, so it has three different
varieties on it and I'm sure youdon't love these, but I was
gifted it.
So tell me, how would I goabout pruning that?
Because obviously I knew youwere going to say that Obviously
, there's the pruning that wewould have for a plum tree,
(57:05):
which is one plum tree on onerootstock, but this is three
plum trees on one rootstock.
Any recommendations?
I've looked at it the lastlittle while and I'm struggling
to get my head around how I'mactually going to prune this
tree.
Speaker 2 (57:18):
And it's such a challenge.
Like I learned to graft laterand I loved grafting and I love
multi fruit trees.
If you create them yourself,like I love the idea of having a
backyard tree like, let's say,a backyard apple tree and, once
it's a little bit mature,grafting on new branches.
And when you graft on those newbranches with different types
(57:39):
of fruit, you can have an appletree that has apples that ripen
in late August, apples thatripen in September, apples that
ripen in October.
You can have loads of differenttypes of apples on one mature
tree.
What you would do in that caseis you would use paint to
signify which are your graftedbranches so you don't
(58:00):
accidentally cut them off whenyou're pruning.
You need to know which are yourimportant branches.
Not a bad idea to do it withyour young multi-plum tree as
well, because as it gets olderit's going to have more branches
.
You need to know which are yourmain branches.
The problem with those that, theproblem here is that somebody
has created the structure foryou that you can't change,
(58:21):
because so I would look at amultifruit tree and the one
question I would ask is how canI improve air circulation
without removing any of thosebranches.
Those branches have to stay.
So if you see sprouts comingfrom the trunk, you know I'd
(58:42):
mentioned to you that withcentral leader you want clean
trunk in between your platforms.
You want two feet of cleantrunk so you can rub off sprouts
as they pop up, or snip themoff if they're already branches.
You can.
If you find one of your mainfruiting branches is getting a
bit heavy, you would still takeoff water sprouts.
(59:05):
Upward branches, you know onesthat don't produce fruit.
You can head it back so you canshorten the branch to thicken
it up a bit, to make it stronger, because that branch has to
stay right.
So there are certain thingsthat you can do.
What you can't do is sculpt theperfect fruit bearing structure
because it's already given youthe structure.
(59:26):
But you certainly can keep it.
You know good clean aircirculation as best you can.
Speaker 1 (59:32):
Yeah, yeah, for sure, because, as I say, I've looked
at it on numerous days and I'mstruggling to figure out what we
have to go at it, but, yeah, ithas to be done soon anyway.
So, yeah, so we mentioned books.
You've mentioned a couple ofthem as we chatted there.
So you've written is it fourbooks on fruit trees?
So tell us about those, justthe names of them, and are they
(59:55):
all still in publication?
And so on.
Speaker 2 (59:58):
Absolutely so.
My first one is called GrowingUrban Orchards and that talks
about my experience starting acommunity orchard and I said to
you that tells you the minimumyou need to know in order to
grow fruit trees successfully.
I've got one just here besideme, I've got Grow Fruit Trees
Fast and I like that bookbecause, again, this goes into
(01:00:19):
more depth but you can read itin an hour.
So if you're thinking ofplanting a fruit tree, get this,
read it first so you know whatyou need to do.
And if you have a fruit treethat you're baffled by, get this
.
Read this so you know what youneed to do.
So that's a quick read for busypeople, but you'll read it from
front to back.
You know in an hour and you'llknow what to do.
(01:00:41):
The third book is Fruit TreeGrafting for Everyone how to
cultivate or how to create yourown fruit trees.
I can't remember the subtitleand that was teaching me how to
do grafting and demystifying itand making it fun, which it is,
and then my.
You know I'm so excited.
The new book is called FruitTree Pruning the Science and Art
(01:01:04):
of Cultivating Healthy FruitTrees and it talks about
everything we've talked about inthe show, plus a lot more about
the science of pruning.
My goal there is to empower you.
Whatever tree you have, afterreading that book, you'll know
how to take care of it and pruneit.
So, in addition to that, I havemy podcast and it's on any
podcatcher and it's calledOrchard People and, like I said,
(01:01:26):
I interviewed these amazingexperts.
This is my continuing education.
I get to find any expert thatI'm interested in learning from
and I get to find out and learnfrom them.
And if you guys want to come ona ride and enjoy it with me,
then please tune into that.
And then, finally, if peopleare interested in my online
(01:01:48):
courses, you can find them atorchardpeoplecom.
And homeowners take them.
Anybody who wants to mastergardeners take them.
Arborists take them.
You can even get continuingeducation credits for arborists
and professional gardeners.
So, yeah, I've got lots ofresources and I've got articles
and all sorts of stuff.
And finally, oh my goodness,the YouTube channel is a lot of
(01:02:08):
fun.
A few years ago, I started todo all my podcasts in video
format because they're sointeresting, these people that
I'm interviewing and I cut in,we edit in pictures to bring it
all to life.
It's not just two peopletalking, so those are a lot of
fun too.
So it's the Orchard PeopleYouTube channel.
Speaker 1 (01:02:31):
So, yeah, it's been really interesting chat.
There's so much there, lots ofvery good information, deep
information, but also veryunderstandable information.
So thank you very, very muchfor coming on.
Mastermind Garden Podcast.
Speaker 2 (01:02:45):
Thank you so much, John, for having me.
You are really fun to chat with.
Speaker 1 (01:02:49):
So that's been this week's episode.
Huge thanks to Susan for comingon.
That was really.
Yes, there's some very goodstuff there.
Like we've said it before,healthy plants equals less
disease, and that's reallyimportant, and I think Susan
reinforced that there.
And there's great informationaround the pruning.
So, again, here in Ireland alot of us think of pruning as
just trying to keep something inshape, but you look at it from
(01:03:11):
a different angle, an angle of,you know, creating a healthier
plant, and that's really whereyou're coming at it from.
So it's not from the point ofview of keeping it in check or
keeping it in shape.
It's about creating a healthytree that will produce for you
for years and years to come.
So, yeah, loads of greatinformation there.
You can check out Susan'spodcast, her YouTube channel,
(01:03:32):
her books and all of the otherresources, online courses and so
on.
I'll put the link in the shownotes for anyone that wants to
check any of those out.
And that's been this week'sepisode.
Thanks for listening and untilthe next time, happy gardening,
thank you.
how's it going, everybody, and welcome to
episode 269 of master my gardenpodcast.
Now, as I said last week, we'regoing to be chatting all things
fruit trees this week and to dothat I'm too delighted to be
joined by sus Poisoner, andSusan is the educator.
She talks all things fruittrees on the orchard people.
So she has written severalbooks on fruit tree care and she
(00:34):
has a recent book which we'llchat about, and she runs online
courses on pruning fruit treesand general fruit tree care.
So this is going to be a prettydeep topic of you know looking
after fruit trees.
So we've going to be a prettydeep topic of you know looking
after fruit trees.
So we've spoke many times on thepodcast about creating orchards
, about picking and choosingcorrect varieties.
We've recommended certainvarieties.
(00:55):
So now we're going to, Isuppose, a slightly different
angle on it, which is theaftercare of fruit trees.
It's a hugely important piecebecause planting the fruit tree
is one part of ensuring that youhave healthy fruit down the
line.
The second part of it is theaftercare, particularly the
pruning as you go through thevarious years.
(01:16):
So, susan, you're very, verywelcome to Master my Garden
podcast.
Speaker 2 (01:20):
Thank you so much for having me.
Speaker 1 (01:22):
Thank you so much for having me.
So lots all of your workcenters around fruit trees.
So we have, as I said, we havefruit tree care books.
We have the YouTube channel,the Orchard People.
We have a monthly podcast oncare for fruit trees, and so you
(01:42):
do your online courses,training both home owners,
arborists all about fruit treecreation.
So you're going into this in avery, very deep level.
So tell us a little bit aboutthe backstory of the Archer
People before we get into how weactually do this and care for
our fruit trees.
Speaker 2 (02:01):
John.
It's a crazy and very funnystory, I think, because most of
my life I did not do anygardening, nothing.
I was a journalist.
I worked for the BBC WorldService.
I used to live in the UK doingRussian language educational
programs.
I don't know how I came to this, but I do.
So go back to Russian, how Icame to this, but I do Russian,
(02:30):
russian, russian, yeah, russianeducational radio programs to
this.
But I guess what happened was Ilived in the UK for many years
and I came back to Toronto to myparents were aging, it was time
and I was not married at thattime.
And I came back and I met myhusband, cliff, here, and Cliff
is from Trinidad Originally, youknow, when he left, when he was
(02:54):
nine.
And so in Trinidad, john, youjust like throw a seed down in a
tree grows and you get mangoesright, you know like whatever,
or avocados, he remembersgrowing avocados.
So he moved in with me and I hada backyard and he's like, oh,
this is a good backyard, can Iplant something?
Like let's plant something.
And I'm like, oh, no, no, no,no, no, I know what's going to
(03:15):
happen.
You're going to go all out,you're going to plant everything
and I'm going to have to takecare of it.
And I don't do that.
So anyways, long story short,he I said, okay, fine, you can
do like five tomato plants.
And I left the house and I comeback, the entire garden is
planted up with God knowseverything.
But I fell in love withgardening, so much so that I got
(03:39):
a little diverted.
I signed up for a landscapedesign course to try and like
just to understand more aboutplants and about design, and
during that course I realizedthere was one thing that
captivated me, and that wastrees.
Because, like I love vegetables, I love growing veggies and
flowers, but trees are likethese beings.
(04:01):
They come back year after yearLike they're there.
They're there.
It's not like a zucchini plantat come back year after year
Like they're there.
They're there.
It's not like a zucchini plant.
At the end of the season, youdig it out and you, you know,
throw it in the compost.
So these trees?
I started to look at trees onthe street so differently and
then it just dawned on me thatthere are fruit trees, that they
don't just look beautiful,shade our communities, clean our
(04:22):
air, but they also feed us.
These are the most generousbeings ever and they can live up
to like over 100 years.
And I was fascinated.
Long story short, I ended upstarting a community orchard in
my local park and planted thesetrees, and at that point I was
an organic gardener.
(04:43):
I kind of knew what I was doingand I thought that the fruit
trees would be easy and please,john, don't laugh, because
they're so not easy and Iplanted these trees.
The whole community was looking.
This had to be a success.
Some people didn't even wantthis project.
So I knew I had to bemeticulous.
And then the trees got sick,and then they weren't growing
well, well, and then the fruitwasn't good and I had to go and
(05:04):
use my journalistic skills tofigure out what was going wrong.
And how do I take care of thesetrees?
What is the minimum I need todo to keep these trees healthy
and productive?
So that started my journey.
Speaker 1 (05:16):
Wow, that's an interesting story.
Just go back to communitygarden.
You created a community fruitgarden.
How many trees are we talkinghere?
Is this a big?
Is this big garden?
Is it?
Speaker 2 (05:28):
the park is not huge.
Um, it's more of a parkette.
But the original plan that Iworked on with my city
councillor and our parksupervisor was to have, I think
it was, 28 or 34 trees.
Um, there was a communityuprising a petition against
having a fruit farm in the park,and so we went through all the
(05:51):
process of, you know,negotiating whatever.
In the end, we were allowed toplant, I think 14 or 18 trees.
To be honest, I don't countanymore because I think about 15
years ago, well, the agreementwas blah, blah, blah.
I don't know how many trees wehave.
We have as many as we have.
We've got apricots, we've gotapples, we've got Asian pears,
(06:12):
we have plums, service berries,all sorts of good stuff there.
Speaker 1 (06:17):
Yeah, super, the community gardens that allow
fruit trees in.
It's a win-win across so manylevels, because fruit trees in
the, in the flowering stage, canbe extremely beautiful.
So you're, you're ticking thatbox.
Obviously from the, from thepoint of view of biodiversity
(06:39):
you know, flower again usefulfor your pollinators and so on
and they are a fruit tree isvery, very beautiful and it's
it's filling the like.
We've spoke on the podcast overthe last couple of weeks about
trees in urban environments,particularly from the point of
view of shade water.
You're slowing down water andall of those things, but fruit
(07:02):
trees will do that and give theextra benefit of having some
food available from them.
So they really are.
It's not something that'sadapted very much here in
Ireland yet, but it's somethingthat I really hope does, because
it's doing exactly what allother trees do, plus the extra
bonus on the end of it.
So it's great.
Speaker 2 (07:22):
So I'm going to inject here a little warning.
So people used to talk to melike you know, you're the fruit
tree lady.
You love fruit trees and I dolove fruit trees, but I don't
believe in planting themwilly-nilly.
So I think it's great to plantfruit trees, I think our project
is incredible and othercommunity orchard projects are
(07:44):
incredible.
Fruit trees I think our projectis incredible and other
community orchard projects areincredible.
But you can only be successfulwith fruit trees if you care for
them.
So when I first started doingfruit tree care education, there
was one line I was teachingpeople.
I thought if I can teach peoplethis one thing, I am successful
.
Because it was just it.
People were oblivious.
And the one line is fruit treesneed hands-on care.
(08:07):
So if people can understandthat then they can plant fruit
trees, because then they'll say,okay, what's the hands-on care
they need?
Of course they need mulching.
That's fine.
But without correct feeding,pruning, pest and disease
protection they can be verymessy.
And the worst part is if youhave a messy, unhealthy fruit
(08:31):
tree in your backyard andsomebody else is lovingly caring
for their fruit tree a fewyards over or even a few blocks
over the pest and diseaseproblems that your trees attract
will affect everybody.
So it is like having a baby.
It's time commitment, right,it's a lifetime commitment.
(08:54):
And it's like I don't havebabies, but I'm sure if I did, I
would get a book saying how doyou care for this baby, like,
how do you change a diaper, howdo you help them and nurture
them?
Right.
And fruit trees are verysimilar.
So that's why I find itinteresting that you say, oh my
gosh, you've got this huge bodyof work all around fruit trees
(09:14):
and it's true, and I keepgetting deeper and deeper into
it Because they are theseincredibly beautiful but complex
beings.
Then there's so much more tolearn.
Saying that there is a minimumthat you can learn in order to
grow healthy and productivefruit trees.
Speaker 1 (09:30):
You don't have to go deep into the, the weeds, like I
have yeah, so yeah, I supposethat's that's something that I
like to convey on the podcast.
So it's, we talk a lot about,about growing, growing food on
the podcast, and obviously fruittrees have come up a lot
because, as you said, they're ayear-on-year really good source
(09:52):
of food, so long as you get thebasic care principles right.
So let's talk about those basiccare principles.
We, as you said, you have a bigbody of work.
There is levels to all of this,but let's, let's talk about, as
you said, the minimum, theminimum that somebody needs to
care for fruit trees, and maybewe'll get into the individual
pruning and so on.
Speaker 2 (10:12):
It's funny because we were growing our fruit trees in
a public park and in the publicpark we were told no sprays,
like certainly no toxic sprays,no pesticides, no fungicides.
And I'm like, oh, that's fine,I want to grow organically, not
knowing that fruit trees justthey are a magnet for certain
(10:36):
diseases.
Each tree has a finite numberof diseases it can get, like the
diseases that apple trees getaren't the same as the ones that
plum trees get.
But what I did learn after ayear, a few years of, you know,
getting confused, I brought inpeople to teach us and the first
(10:57):
and most important thing that Ilearned was pruning.
The reason is pruning.
People think, oh, it's just tomake your tree smaller, so that
when your tree is, you know, oldand it's too high, you just cut
it a little bit.
And that's maybe one goal ofpruning, but not the main goal.
The main goal of pruning is tokeep your tree healthy and
(11:20):
productive, so healthy in termsof preventing disease.
Wow, how does pruning preventdisease?
That was the first thing I hadto get my head around.
And the second thing is howwould cutting off branches make
my tree more productive andproduce better quality fruit?
So let's go into each of those.
How does pruning make your treehealthier?
(11:43):
How does it make it moreresistant to disease?
Well, I like to talk about aircirculation.
If your fruit tree has a wholetangle of branches that once
they leaf out they're alltightly, you know, curled up
together, all the branches andthe leaves are touching each
other.
Then when it rains and you guyslive in a rainy climate, I'm
(12:05):
sure rainier than us when itrains, fungal spores hang out in
the canopy.
They love it.
It's dark, it's damp andthey're like this is heaven, I
love being in this tree and thenyou get fungal diseases, like
rust, which you get in applesand pears.
(12:27):
Basically, I think 80% of allthe diseases that fruit trees
get are fungal diseases 80%.
Okay.
So that's what happens when thecanopy is crowded.
But if you start to selectivelyremove branches not trim them at
the edges and like, do a circlearound your tree to make it
look like a lollipop, not that,but remove entire branches from
(12:50):
the inside of your tree you'reopening it up for air
circulation.
And if there's good aircirculation, then the air blows
in and dries out the canopy.
And to make it even better, ifyou prune correctly, and not
only is there good aircirculation, but there's also
sunlight penetration.
The sun will dry the canopy too.
(13:11):
So with correct pruning you aretaking out a whole bunch of
potential problems.
So let's talk about fruitproduction.
Why would correct pruning helpyour tree produce better quality
fruit?
Well, let's think about you.
Okay, you wake up in themorning, you've got 10 jobs to
(13:34):
do.
If you do all 10 jobs, you aregoing to be running around all
day.
You're going to be exhaustedand you probably won't do each
job really really well.
But if you say you know what,today I'm going to focus on just
seven jobs and the other threeI'll save till tomorrow, you'll
have time to do them better.
(13:55):
It's the same thing with fruittrees.
They have a finite amount ofenergy, especially in the early
spring when they're doing awhole bunch of work they're
opening their buds, they aremaking blossoms, they're
creating fruit.
So at that time of year, ifthey have a whole bunch of
branches to feed with energyfrom their root system, then
(14:16):
each branch will get a littlebit of energy.
It'll grow a teeny tiny bit,maybe more than a bit or
whatever, and it'll have someenergy for fruit, but not a lot.
But if you selectively removesome of those branches, then all
of a sudden, the remainingbranches get more energy, they
can grow longer, they can bestronger and they can produce
(14:38):
better quality fruit.
There's some more nuances there, but that is the broad.
Speaker 1 (14:43):
That is just an easy way to look at why pruning helps
so much and why it is thecornerstone of how you care for
your fruit trees way of puttingit, especially on the disease
(15:07):
part, because you're right inthat a lot of people view
pruning as the shaping of thetree, which it it is to a
certain extent, but if you'vechosen the right rootstock and
so on, that's not really true.
You should be, you should beworking with something that's
suitable for your garden anyway.
So then it comes down to fruitproduction, which, again, you
know, most people know about,but yeah, that's something I
knew.
But to have it pointed out likethat is is really good.
(15:29):
So by doing correct pruningyou're opening, opening up and
not allowing, I suppose, havensfor, for fungal diseases.
That's.
It's very well put.
Speaker 2 (15:40):
Thank you, thank you, and I have to explain this a
lot, and so I kind of think ofbecause it's so counterintuitive
.
It's like once I was teaching Iwent to Virginia in the States
to teach some arborists aboutpruning and for some bizarre
reason they wanted me to do thepruning demo before teaching
people why you do this pruning.
(16:00):
So there's all these arboristsstanding around and I'm like
starting to demo by pruning avery young tree, like I was a
young apricot or some peach orsomething and I go in with my
hand pruners and I'mdemonstrating, I'm explaining
how I'm going to take off anentire branch, like this tree
has maybe 10 branches, and I goin and I'm cutting off one of
these young, healthy branches.
(16:30):
One of the arborists almostpulled me back to stop me.
She said don't do that, it's ahealthy branch.
Why are you doing that?
And that's the other mindblowing thing about pruning you
are taking beautiful, healthybranches and you're cutting them
off and throwing them away.
So there's just a bit of achange in mindset.
Speaker 1 (16:41):
That's necessary bit of a change in mindset that's
necessary, yeah.
So when you know the how-topart of pruning, what are so?
Obviously we're looking to openup the center, so what and how
do we go about pruning?
Speaker 2 (17:01):
say, a two, three-year-old apple tree, for
example.
Well, here's then.
This is the thing.
Now there's two structures.
One structure is what youdiscussed, which may be popular
over there, and it's the opencenter.
So your tree ends up lookinglike a goblet or a cup and
there's no central branch in themiddle.
And then there's a secondarystructure which is called
central leader, where you haveone branch in the middle and
(17:22):
you're creating a sort ofChristmas tree shape.
There's pros and cons for bothof those.
They are both very fruitful.
You're producing fruit.
Central leader can be a littlebit sturdier in a windy climate,
whereas open center gets theselong branches that in a wind,
(17:43):
like a heavy wind, the branchescan easily break and then,
whoops, you've lost a whole.
You know it's a whole big dealwith with, uh, central leader
it's sturdier.
But now you say how would youprune a two or three year old
apple tree?
Let's take it back ultimately,john, and if you've been talking
about rootstocks, you'veprobably been talking
(18:04):
encouraging people to plant bareroot trees which are not in a
pot, which are very young.
So the ideal way is to pruneyour fruit tree the first time
you prune.
It is on the day you plant yourbare root tree the very day.
So you plant the bare root treein the ground, you water it in
(18:26):
and you make something called awhip cut.
So your tree a bare root treethat's young just looks like a
stick or a branch with roots.
There's no side branches, andthat's ideal.
That's what you want theyoungest tree possible.
Because it's like sculpting.
You're sculpting your perfectstructure for a tree.
So you do your whip cut.
You probably are cutting offthe top third of the tree at
(18:50):
least, and often you are cuttingit up to oh goodness, I'm going
to say in inches.
Let's say you'll cut it at 34inches off the ground, not sure,
okay.
So then what you're doing is,by removing the top of that whip
, you are removing the hormones.
They are called auxin hormones.
(19:11):
Auxin hormones make it go uphigher and higher.
They pull the tips higher andhigher.
But what happens is, when youcut off those auxin hormones, it
gives the side buds anopportunity to flourish, right,
because that auxin is verydomineering.
It's like you, side buds, youdon't do much.
I'm gonna lead here.
Once you get rid of the auxins,the side buds start opening up
(19:35):
and you start getting sidebranches, and so what you would
do is that year.
So you do your whip cut in yearone and in year two you choose
your scaffold branches, yourside branches, out of the
options the tree gives you.
You're not going to keep anyside branches that are below
your knee because that's too lowfor fruit.
(19:55):
Okay, depending on whichstructure you're using, you are
going to choose and let's talkabout open center.
You will choose to choose, andlet's talk about open center.
You will choose three to fivescaffold branches near the top
they should be a couple ofinches apart, maybe you know so
that it just keeps it moresturdy and each of those
(20:15):
branches will go in a differentdirection.
So if there's four of them, itcould be one goes north, one
goes south, one goes east, onegoes west, but they all have to
be in a different direction, not, you know, three, four of them
on one side and one on the other, and those you will nurture to
become your structure.
So the problem is, if peoplewait until year two or three,
(20:38):
you've missed the opportunity tosculpt your tree into the ideal
structure.
You can still prune it, and youshould, but now, once the tree
is older, what I tell people todo is learn how to do the
structure and then adapt it toyour tree.
So sometimes you can take anestablished tree and look at it
(21:01):
and say, okay, I can make thisinto a central leader tree.
This is how.
But even if you can't, once youunderstand all the science
behind pruning, you can look atany tree, even like a
20-year-old tree that's beenneglected, and slowly renovate
it so that it is a healthy andproductive tree.
I'll just throw one more thingin.
(21:23):
If you're pruning an older treetree, I'll just say one, throw
one more thing in.
If you're pruning an older treeany like older than three, four
years old, you can only pruneoff 25% of the canopy.
So let's say you buy my bookFruit Tree Pruning it's called
Fruit Tree Pruning, the scienceand art of cultivating healthy
fruit trees.
You buy my book and you read it.
Then you're looking at yourtree and say, okay, I can make
(21:46):
that shape, I can do do this.
But if you do it all in oneyear it'll freak out your tree.
You have to do it slowly.
So 25 of you know, correctingthe structure one year and then
wait for it to grow and then thenext year do another 25 and in
four years you're going to havethe perfect structure and a
really healthy tree thatproduces great fruit.
Speaker 1 (22:06):
Yeah, that's interesting and loads, loads in
there.
I've got to go back to yourvery, your very original point.
It's funny the goblet styleopen center pruning is the most
popular here, is the mostpopular here.
And it's interesting that yousay it's less suited to a windy
(22:26):
climate because we are, andincreasingly so, we're getting a
lot of wind.
Well, we've always had wind,but recently we've been getting
quite storm-like conditions, um,on a more regular basis.
So it would seem, then, thatyou know the, the amount of
fruit trees that are in, thatyou know that open center are
(22:50):
not ideally suited to thechanging climate.
So maybe we'll just delve alittle bit further into the,
into the center.
Speaker 2 (22:56):
Yeah, let me.
Yeah, well, let's okay.
So I love that you made thatpoint and thank you so much for
sharing that with me.
The benefit of the goblet ofthe open center structure is
another thing that you guys have, which is a really wet climate.
You can't do better at keepingthe canopy dry than that open
(23:19):
center shape.
That's why your growers theredo that shape and I guess
they're willing, or at leastmaybe you say the wind is
getting worse and worse, somaybe they were willing to put
up with the wind.
You know, if you have to, ifyou've only got one backyard
tree, there are ways that youcan support long branches with.
You know, wooden setups I'm notmuch of a woodworker, but yes,
(23:43):
so that's interesting.
So on the one hand, it's sogreat for the open canopy, is
great for wet climates, but nowlet's talk about windy climates.
So here's what happens withcentral leader.
You have this one central trunkthat turns into the top branch,
one central trunk that turnsinto the top branch, and you
(24:10):
have, let's say, two or three Icall them platforms on it.
So you're doing the whip cut inyear one, but each year you
select, let's say, four branchesin different directions north,
south, east, west, but theleader With open center, you're
getting rid of the leader.
There's no leader.
Then you let the leader go up alittle bit further, so you've
(24:30):
got the first platform.
It's at, let's say, knee height.
You let your leader go upfurther and, let's say, at my
waist height I can have platformtwo, another four, let's say
four branches going in slightlydifferent directions so they're
not shading the ones below it.
Then, finally, if I want thethird platform, it can be at my
(24:50):
shoulders.
And this is just.
It depends on the rootstock.
You have the size of the tree,the vigor of the tree.
The idea is there that you haveabout two feet of open space
between platforms where thetrunk is clean, there's no
branches.
If anything pops up, you'resnipping it off.
Even rubbing it off with thetree is young.
You could take your finger.
(25:11):
You can rub off the littleshoots if they're in the wrong
place.
Now, why does this structure?
Why is it so strong?
Because you get more branchesand they're shorter.
Each time you head back orshorten a branch, you are again.
That branch has limited amountof energy.
(25:32):
So you are shortening thebranch to fit into your triangle
shape.
Because you have three platforms.
The top platform is sort ofsmaller than the middle one and
the middle one is smaller thanthe bottom one.
So it's like a triangle andeach time you shorten a branch
to fit into that structure,there is more energy in the
remaining buds and the branch isable to thicken up more.
(25:55):
It just has more energy foreverything, for fruit, for
thickening up, which is calledsecondary tree growth.
So you get this kind of likestout little, strong, little
muscular tree.
So I'm tall and willowy, right,I'm kind of tall, I got long
arms, I got long legs.
My husband is sort of shorterand he's like he's got lots of
(26:19):
strength right and it's becauseof his structure's got shorter
branches.
He's got shorter arms butstronger, uh, you know, upper
body, shorter legs.
So that's the differencebetween open center and central
leader.
Speaker 1 (26:36):
Yeah, yeah, it strikes me.
So, yeah, that makes sense.
Now that the the reason like weare a very wet place on and I,
yeah, I guess it comes to abalance and act, which one is
worse?
And I would say the damp iscertainly, certainly whiter.
They're all gone for the goblet, the goblet style pruning, I
(26:58):
think from a back, a backyardperspective, which most of the
listeners are, you know.
Uh, I think the goblet styleprobably suits better as well,
because in my head I'm thinkingat at maturity, it's a lot
smaller in terms of height tomanage, I would imagine.
Am I correct, that's?
Speaker 2 (27:16):
interesting because chair, like, for instance,
cherry trees oh my god, they getbig, you know, um.
And and also the time of yearis important when you prune in
order to reduce size, and we cantalk about that.
That makes a big difference.
But there's some trees like,yeah, like I, like your point,
um, I guess, if you want to keepit, I would love.
(27:41):
If I lived in ireland I woulddo an experiment and if I had
enough space, I would experimentwith some central leader trees,
because they do.
They are also good for aircirculation, but I suppose you
know, because it has platforms,even though these branches don't
exactly they shouldn't shadeeach other out.
(28:01):
Maybe it would retain a littlebit more moisture.
Yeah, it's like you say you,you have to pick one, the lesser
evil and decide which one to gofor.
But yeah, if you are, if yourconcern is and it should be the
the next thing that we shouldprobably talk about is how do
(28:21):
you keep a tree smaller?
And it has to do with the timeof year that you prune.
So, for instance, we talked alittle bit about the energy of a
fruit tree in the winter.
So the winter the fruit treehas energy in its root systems.
The previous year it had leaves.
(28:42):
It made lots of energy throughphotosynthesis and in the fall,
when you see the leaf colorchanges, that's because it's
pulling the energy out of theleaves and putting it in the
roots so it stores.
It's like a little pantry.
Over the winter You've got allyour goodies in your root system
and then the spring comes andthat's when that energy comes up
and it powers the growth of thebuds and the blossoms in the
(29:03):
fruit.
Energy comes up and it powersthe growth of the buds and the
blossoms in the fruit.
So that's why I explainedearlier that if you remove let's
say you have 10 branches if youremove three of those branches,
each of the remaining brancheswill be longer and stronger.
So winter pruning stimulatesgrowth.
It makes a small.
If you plant a young tree andyou want it to grow faster and
(29:23):
bigger, that's a good time to doit.
But if you take a cherry treethat is already too big and
you're like, okay, I'm going todo some winter pruning on this
tree, what's going to happen?
The cherry tree has big rootswith lots of energy and you're
removing some branches to createyour structure, or even you
know if you're making it into alollipop, whatever you're doing
(29:45):
with it, you know trimmingaround the edge or whatever
you're doing.
You don't know what you'redoing.
Let's say, what's going tohappen is it's going to
stimulate even more growthbecause it's got all this energy
in its root system.
It's winter and it'll havefewer buds, fewer branches, so
each branch will grow more.
But here's what happens If youwait.
(30:07):
So you let the season start,you let the cherry tree or which
it can be, a big old apple treeor anything bring up the energy
and power, growth of blossomsand even fruit.
You let it do its thing'srunning a marathon, it's just
running, running, running,running.
And then, after blossom time,after the petal falls, petals
(30:33):
fall, then you start pruning.
It doesn't have as much energyto bounce back.
It's already used up its energy.
With this marathon you'recutting off the energy you.
You're cutting off brancheswith, you know, spent blossoms
and baby fruitlets even on it.
With our cherry trees inparticular, because here we get
cherries in the beginning ofJuly, it's not too late to prune
(30:57):
them.
So we take because our treesare big despite all the pruning
we take our pole pruners and weremove entire branches, knowing
that they're not part of ourstructure with the cherries on
them, so that we can get thehigh up cherries and we share it
with the community.
We have a lot of fun.
But at that point the tree isnot going to grow bigger and
bigger for two reasons.
(31:18):
One, it doesn't have lots ofenergy in the root system to
power that.
It's now making energy out ofthe leaves.
But the second thing is hormoneshave shifted.
The auxin hormones that makebranches longer were active in
the winter At this point.
Auxin hormones, they're not soactive.
But there's I think it's calledcytokinins, I'm probably not
(31:39):
pronouncing it right there'shormones that become active in
the summer that tell the treehey, this is a good time to put
energy towards buds for fruitfor next year.
So essentially, when you prunein the summer, the energy is
going to go to fruit production.
So everything we're doing, john, with our tree is a partnership
(32:01):
.
We are working with it, withthe science, so that we
understand it, so we can havewhat everybody wants.
Even the tree wants to behealthy and productive.
It wants to fulfill its purpose, um, so we're working together,
knowing and understanding howthe trees work, to have a
healthy tree and, uh, qualityharvest yeah, man, that makes
(32:22):
sense.
Speaker 1 (32:23):
they sense, I suppose , as we head for the end of
March here what, and we maybelook at the.
So cherries we do grow here,but they typically they're in
certain parts of the country orthey're undercover.
And what are most popular fruittrees here, I guess, are apples
(32:44):
, as you would expect, plums,certainly popular as well, and
pears to a certain extent, andagain that can be quite regional
.
They do better in certain partsof the country.
So, looking at the main treetypes of fruit here, ideal
(33:04):
pruning periods for those three.
Speaker 2 (33:08):
Brilliant, that's so brilliant.
Okay, plums are very much likecherries.
Often not always.
Sometimes they have these long,swooping branches that just
want to be open center.
The way they grow, sometimesdepending on the cultivar,
depending on the rootstock,whatever they grow to, the open
(33:30):
center structure Plums everyonethat I've ever worked with are
vigorous.
So that means that in the firstthree years of formative
pruning it's called formativepruning in the first three years
you probably will winter pruneit because you want it to create
a structure quickly.
So you know, in my book Ioutline the stages each year.
(33:51):
What you do Stage one is yearone is whip cut.
What you do year two and yearthree.
So you create the structure inthe winter in the first three
years.
After that, once it reaches thesize you want it to reach, then
you summer prune.
We love pruning in our park.
It is the funnest thing that wedo.
It is such a wonderfulinteractive thing.
(34:13):
I went to the park and Ithought, man, we have like zero
to winter prune now Nothing,hardly anything.
And so here I've got this teamof people, everybody's going to
have a hand pruner, everybodywants to do the formative
pruning, which is the funnestpart, and there's like only
cleanup pruning to do, andthat's mostly in the summer.
So here we're going to allstand around three trees and say
(34:36):
, okay, what cuts will we make,and then it'll take five minutes
, it'll be done.
So the older trees use summerprune Okay, and not.
The older trees use summerprune okay, and not on a rainy
day, by the way.
You keep it dry, because againfungal diseases can go in those
cuts.
So apples, similar apples,mostly the ones that we grow
here, except for certain diseaseresistant varieties, are pretty
(34:59):
slow growing for the firstthree to five years.
We winter prune the first threeyears.
We years, we winter prune thefirst three years.
We're creating the structureand the way we did it because we
didn't really know what we weredoing at first.
It maybe took five years tocreate the structure.
After that you look and see howbranchy is this tree.
If it's got a million branchesand sort of water sprouts
(35:20):
sticking up for upward, you knowsprouts on all the branches
summer prune.
There's too many branches.
You want to keep that openstructure, summer prune.
And then we were talking aboutpears.
Pears are similar to apples inthat they can be slow growing.
Some pears are interesting,like Asian pears.
(35:44):
They don't really need a lot ofpruning sometimes.
Sometimes they just don't growa lot of branches.
They keep growing spurs like afruiting spurs.
We've got an Asian pear in ourpark and, yeah, I mean it could
use a little prettying up, butin terms of air circulation it's
perfect.
Speaker 1 (36:02):
so, yeah, that's what I would do for those three okay
, so we're looking three to fiveyears winter pruning and then
summer pruning after that, onceyou have the formative shape in
place.
Speaker 2 (36:13):
Exactly, unless you again are looking at let's say,
there was a windstorm and you'relooking at a tree and it lost a
bunch of branches and you thinkwe need some new scaffold
branches to grow from the tree.
Then you may want a winterprune because you want to spur
vigorous growth.
So once you know the science,you can adapt it to the tree
(36:35):
yeah, makes sense.
Speaker 1 (36:36):
I gotta take a step back.
We spoke a lot about fungaldiseases.
Um, here in ireland it is allpretty much fungal diseases as
well, and the one that causesthe most problems and I'm sure
it's the same for you guys iscanker.
Is that, I suppose, the mostprominent disease or the most
troublesome disease that you see?
Speaker 2 (36:56):
Canker we have, and often it's a symptom of
different fungal diseases.
Sometimes it can be bacterialas well, depending on what the
tree is.
Yes, so canker like.
The amazing thing is, once youknow how to prune correctly, how
to remove a branch safely sothat it heals properly.
You can't just hack offbranches.
(37:17):
You have to leave the collarand you may have done a podcast
on this but you have to cut justpast this sort of.
It looks like a littleturtleneck around the base of
any branch.
You have to leave that littleround circle protruding bit and
then you cut it and then it canheal.
(37:39):
So the important thing withcanker is you need to remove it
when you see it Not on a rainyday, but when it's a dry day.
You go out, you see some cankeron a branch.
It can be oozing goop, it canlook hard and crispy and black.
And if you decide you want toremove the whole branch, you can
(38:02):
do that.
But if you just want to shortenthe branch, make sure you cut a
couple of inches before you seethe canker and don't put the
branch in your compost pile.
Get it off the site, put it ina bag, because how do things
spread the pathogen.
Even if it's sitting beside thetree and the branch is no
longer alive, that pathogen willjust blow around.
So canker you have to remove.
(38:24):
As you see, if it's on thetrunk of the tree and this has
happened with us before onvarious trees if it's young tree
you're probably going to haveto throw out the whole tree.
But if it's an older tree youcan actually take a box cutter
like a box cutting knife, put asheet down around the bottom of
the tree.
Put a sheet down around thebottom of the tree and cut a
(38:49):
circle around the infected areaso that the circle only includes
clean, like healthy tissue andyou're scraping out all of the
bark and the dead or sick tissueunderneath it, scraping that
out onto the sheet so it doesn'tgo into the soil and right down
to the heartwood, to that hardpart of the tree that would be
like you know people would useto make things with right and so
(39:12):
by carving that out.
Then what I would do is takesomething like garden sulfur and
spray some garden sulfur, someantifungal organic spray, in
there and the trees can heal.
The trees that have had cankerthat we've had to take down
completely are those that havecanker all over the place.
It's in the trunk, it's out ofevery branch, it's already gone
(39:34):
through the entire system of thetree and in that case, my
friend, you have to take downthe whole tree in order to
protect the rest of your trees.
Mm-hmm, you know.
So we have to be detached.
You know, we talked earlierabout community orchard projects
and people come to me and say,well, we want to dedicate a tree
to people who pay for the tree.
(39:56):
And I'm thinking, maybe don'tdo that.
Can you imagine?
You know the John Jones treeand it's sick all the time.
You know it's sick all the time.
And then finally it's likesorry, john, we got to cut down
your tree.
We'll plant another one in yourname.
And it's like, yeah, no, maybenot.
So don't personalize them inthat way though.
We love our trees Like I'm soattached to them, but if I have
(40:17):
to cut them down, I will.
Speaker 1 (40:26):
Yeah, for the greater good of the rest of the trees
makes sense.
Yes, yeah, I planted some appletrees well, some apples, plums,
pears a couple years ago andlast, last year, one of the
trees got canker in just toomany places and it just had to
go.
And yeah, it's you prefer if itdidn't, but that's just the way
.
In order to make sure the restof them stayed healthy, it has
to go yeah, exactly yeah, um,then, in terms of in terms of
(40:49):
pests.
So again, pruning is going tohelp in terms of pests.
But, and to be fair, and Imight just look at the kind of
the most common examples hereagain, we have the apple moth
and the plum moth, which youknow, they're probably, again,
the most troublesome things interms of pests.
(41:09):
Obviously we have some issueswith birds as well.
At at the stage where the fruitis is ripe, the birds are
watching it just as eagerly asthe, as the homeowner is, and if
you don't get there on time youcould find that they're gone
overnight.
But I think apple moth and plummoth are the two that cause the
most problems here.
Any kind of good tips aroundthose?
Speaker 2 (41:30):
Yeah, so here we call them, and I think it's the same
insect, more or less, wherewe've got apple maggot and
codling moth.
Speaker 1 (41:39):
Codling moth yeah.
Speaker 2 (41:40):
Codling moth.
So we've got those two, and forplum, it's plum corculio.
Speaker 1 (41:47):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (41:47):
So, okay, apple mug and codling moth are somewhat
easier to deal with in the sensethat.
Well, let me backtrack.
I'm just trying to think.
When you understand the lifecycle of the insect, so when you
understand where it lays itseggs, where it lives, does it
(42:10):
live in the soil?
Does it live in the bark?
One thing we know about manypests is they hide over winter
in the cracks and crevices ofthe tree and they lay their eggs
there of the tree and they laytheir eggs there.
So the first thing that we tryto always do is to give our
trees a dormant oil spray.
(42:31):
Here we use something calledlime sulfur mixed with dormant
oil.
It's a kit.
You buy lime sulfur and dormantoil, but everywhere you go you
can get some sort of dormant oiland what you do is, before the
buds open probably too late foryou guys now it's about time for
that here Before the buds open,when the temperature is
(42:53):
slightly above freezing, youspray the tree with this oil and
coat the tree.
You put it in all the cracksand crevices, but you coat the
entire tree and hopefully you'rekeeping your trees nice and
compact.
So you can do this and itsmothers overwintering insects
that are inside there.
So that takes care of a wholebunch of insects.
Now, sadly, I don't think applemaggot and codling moth are
(43:18):
amongst them, but there'll beother ones that you'll get rid
of in that, for apple maggot andcodling moth need to know that
these insects though the, the.
They lay their eggs under theskin of the baby fruit.
So you think your tree isperfect.
They're out there laying theireggs and then you start to see
oozing goop coming from yourlittle apples on the tree and
(43:41):
you're like, oh, that doesn'tlook good.
Sure, doesn't look good,because as that fruit grows, the
egg inside hatches and it turnsinto a maggot or a worm and it
destroys your fruit.
So one way you can stop that isif you see a fruitlet that is
infected, that's oozing goop youpull it off.
(44:03):
You don't put it in yourcompost, you put in a bag, you
take it off the site, you put itin municipal garbage, whatever,
okay, rubbish, get rid of it,okay.
But it's even better to preventthat from happening in the first
place, and a trick that Ilearned because we weren't
allowed to do sprays issomething called orchard socks.
(44:23):
They're also called maggotbarriers, john, I don't know if
women do this, but if men dothis too.
But when you are trying onwomen's shoes, you go to the
shoe store and if you're wearinglike sandals, they're like ew,
don't put your shoe, your foot,you're in the shoe.
Here's a try on sock and it's alittle nylon.
You slip it on your, your footand then you put your foot in
(44:45):
the shoe just to keep everythinga little clean.
Um, so these orchard socks areessentially try on socks.
You can even get them on amazonor whatever they're called try
on socks.
So what you do is you go outwhen the fruit is just about the
size of like, uh, like an inchin diameter or something or less
(45:06):
, and you slip these littlesockets on the apple and tie up
the top.
So they're nylon, so theystretch.
As the fruitlet grows, thenylon stretches and it prevents
those insects from laying theireggs under the skin of the fruit
.
We have done that for 15 years.
(45:27):
We've done experiments with itwhere because it takes time, you
know we get the crew out we puton as many socks as we can on
the fruitlets.
The fruitlets that are covered99% clean.
The ones that aren't coveredget the apple maggot or coddling
moth problems.
So it works, but it's timeconsuming, but it works and you
(45:53):
can at least do some of yourfruit like that.
And then the final thing whichwe don't do, and I don't know if
you guys have access to itthere is a spray called kaolin
clay.
It is just clay, it's calledsurround in the States and you
can spray your tree.
You follow the instructions andit makes the fruit sort of
(46:13):
scratchy so that when theinsects land it's uncomfortable,
they don't want to be there,and then they go and do
something else.
And the final tactic for thoseguys is traps.
And the final tactic for thoseguys is traps, traps.
You get a sticky trap and youget a coddling moth allure so it
smells like certain hormones.
(46:34):
It attracts the male insectswho come to smell this nice
smell of girls basically, andthen they land in the trap which
is like the shape of a diamond,and they get stuck and they die
.
So the women, the women, thegirl insects are flying around
(46:54):
with nobody to meet with, sothey don't have eggs, so they
don't have babies.
And final tip Okay, I knowthat's a lot of tips, but the
final tip is in the fall, whenyou've got fallen fruit around
the tree and diseased leavesaround the tree.
Clean everything upmeticulously, do not put it in
the compost, Put it in a bag,get it off the site, put it in
(47:15):
municipal rubbish, whatever andyou're getting rid of the
pathogens from next year.
You're getting rid of thepathogens from next year.
You're getting rid of thefungal spores.
You're getting rid of any wormsthat are inside those apples
that will just overwinter andcome back full force next year
even more, more and more.
So.
The more you ignore things, theworse they get from year to
(47:37):
year.
Things do not go away on theirown.
Speaker 1 (47:40):
Yeah, I think that's a really good point for anyone
listening, because disease hereis definitely the, I suppose,
the biggest struggle that peoplehave when it comes to fruit
trees.
But what you've just talkedabout is exactly what you said
at the start that it's importantto view this as not necessarily
(48:00):
difficult, but continuous careof the tree.
Not necessarily difficult, butcontinuous care of the tree.
And so every year you do alittle bit.
You know pruning husbandry interms of cleaning up the area,
taking away the fruit treatmentsand every year, by doing a
little bit, your tree is gettingstronger, your tree is getting
more resilient as you go along,and while you'll always have to
(48:23):
do a little bit, once you getthat establishment right, it
leads to successful fruiting foryears to come.
No-transcript.
Speaker 2 (48:37):
That's very well said .
That is so very well saidBecause it doesn't have to be a
full-time job.
It's once you know what to do,you just do it Like again with
the parent situation.
I mean, I guess parents justget used to feeding their kids
three times a day.
They don't forget to feed theirkids three times a day, right,
they don't forget to put theirkids to bed, or you know.
(48:59):
And then the kids get older andthey get more self-sufficient.
Fruit trees also get moreself-sufficient, as you were
saying.
They get healthier with thiscare, so that they are more
resilient.
I did a podcast my podcast awhile back, an interview with an
entomologist who has discoveredthat healthy trees are not of
interest to fruit tree pests.
(49:21):
So you asked about the plumcorculio and that is a really,
really tricky one.
I can't give you as easysolutions for that one, but
saying that the healthier yourtree is, the less interesting it
is for all of these pests.
Again, with children in theplayground, the big bully.
(49:42):
The big bully doesn't pick onthe strong kid that's
self-confident, that you knowdoesn't have a problem.
It's like what's wrong with you.
The bully picks on the onethat's a little weaker, a little
insecure, not super confident,and it's in terms of fruit trees
and other plants.
What it is is.
A healthy tree has a lot ofsweetness in it, in the leaves
(50:08):
and whatever.
It's almost too sweet.
So the insect they can't digestit.
They like weak trees.
The weak trees exude somethingthat they know.
This is the one to target.
Trees exude something that theyknow.
This is the one to target.
So everything I teach in my youknow online courses and in my
(50:29):
books is about how to get, bringup your trees so that they're
the strong, confident ones, sothat they are resilient in the
face of climate change, in theface of pests, in the face of
diseases.
Just like we need to beresilient in this world, you
know, we want our trees to beresilient too.
Speaker 1 (50:43):
That's brilliant, because that is something that
gets repeated, probably on amonthly basis on the podcast.
You know, healthy plants ingeneral, whether we're talking
about roses, whether we'retalking about vegetables,
whether we're talking aboutfruit trees, healthy plants are
100%.
You mentioned having anentonomous on who was able to
(51:05):
show you specifically inrelation to fruit trees, but
it's true of all plants, of all,as I say, roses, vegetables,
whatever the healthier the plant, the less susceptible they are
to any disease or any pest.
That's going so.
That's.
That's good that you've, youknow, emphasized that and that
there is some kind of proofthere as well.
Speaker 2 (51:24):
There is proof, it's amazing.
And his expertise.
He was talking about fruittrees, but his expertise is all
plants, I think all edibleplants, and so people might want
to listen to that podcastbecause he is brilliant.
At some point I've written awhole bunch of books, but at
some point I want to do a bookon pests and diseases, and boy
will I be featuring the sciencearound that because it is
(51:48):
fascinating.
Speaker 1 (51:49):
Yeah, we speak a lot about soil health.
In relation to soil health,translating to a healthy plant,
how do you see soil health, orwhat role do you see that soil
health has in fruit trees?
Because, again, it may seem topeople fruit tree, it's up above
the ground that there isn't ahuge connection between the two.
(52:10):
You know maybe less so thanthere is when you're growing
your vegetables or whatever, butit is still key and what you
know in terms of your garden,your fruit trees, what do you do
to encourage soil health?
Oh, first of all, I got to tellyou, you know, in terms of your
garden, your fruit trees, whatdo you do to encourage soil
health?
Speaker 2 (52:23):
Oh, first of all, I got to tell you you know it
sounds like I'm smart now or Iknew nothing.
You know, I really knew nothingwhen I started and I'm only
smart because I interview smartpeople I'm not really smart, but
when I was astonished when Ifirst learned that people who
grow orchards spend three yearspreparing the soil we had this
(52:44):
park that was like, hey, let'splant some fruit trees there.
I hadn't even dug a hole to seewhat the quality of the soil
looked like.
I was like sure we can plantfruit trees here.
And it's terrible.
Really compact soil, right.
But what professional growerswill do is they decide where
they find the site.
It's got to be full sun.
They will test the soil to seethe quality of the soil.
(53:07):
They will plant cover cropsrepeatedly and add organic
matter and then till it in, andthey do this for three years and
then they plant their trees.
Now saying that most homeownersaren't going to do that, and
rightly so.
Hopefully their gardens areokay.
But even if you can amend thesoil six months before you can
(53:30):
plant the tree, or a year orwhatever, just start thinking
about where that tree is goingto go just like you would be
preparing the bedroom for thenewborn baby, you know, painting
the walls or doing whatever youknow, having a baby carriage or
whatever you do.
So preparing the soil inadvance, even if the minimum I
would do now is, if you wantyou've said, susan, I want to
(53:52):
plant an apple tree in mybackyard I'd say, okay, first
thing, before you buy the tree,go, dig a hole in the area that
you plant your tree.
Is there 12 inches of goodquality soil, well-drained, nice
soil?
If it looks a little bit tooheavy, add some compost, give it
some time.
Maybe do a little cover crop ofclover or something.
Let's just get it a little bitready for the fruit tree.
(54:15):
The next thing I would say is,every year in the spring, say is
every year in the spring, I doit before, if possible, before
the tree leaves out, put down alayer of compost, two inches of
compost, around the roots of thetree, knowing that the feeder
(54:37):
roots of the tree the little,tiny, little fresh roots they're
the ones that take in water andnutrition.
They're going to be at theouter edge of the canopy, not
really close to the trunk, somulching just two inches around
the trunk is not going to do thetrick.
You want to have a beautifulbig mulch circle, always
extending it so that it goestowards the edge of the canopy.
(54:57):
And people are like, what Areyou kidding?
And I'm absolutely not kidding,that's what I do.
I keep it all clean up untilthe edge of the canopy if
possible.
So every spring you give thetree compost.
Here's why I told you that inthe winter the tree has energy
in its root system.
Once that energy is used up, itneeds new energy.
(55:20):
So if you put compost aroundthose roots, it will start to
break down.
By that root energy is burnt upand it will feed the tree and
then the tree will have leavesand it will feed itself
(55:41):
important with compost.
And if you want, you can putwood chips on top of that.
Wood chips break down slower.
So I would always put twoinches of compost first or one
inch of rotted or compostedmanure.
That's another option.
So those are the main soilhealth things that I can tell
you about.
In my book Grow Fruit TreesFast, I talk about how you can
use holistic sprays just dilutedmolasses, essentially to feed
(56:02):
your tree and how that feeds thesoil.
It's a little bit of ascientific thing which I think
probably your listeners aregetting a little tired of
science.
But there's so many things youcan do to help the soil, but I
think I gave you some of thebasic ones, yeah yeah, and it's
something we talk a lot about onthe podcast anyway.
Speaker 1 (56:22):
So I'm sure that they , you know they, they get the
gist of it.
Um, but it is, it is true thathealthy, healthy soil, healthy
plants, healthy plant, lessdisease, so it's it's all
connected and it's important tobe aware of that before we we
chat about your podcast, yourbook and your youtube channel.
I have a question.
Uh, it's a question from my owngarden.
(56:43):
I was gifted a family plum tree, so it has three different
varieties on it and I'm sure youdon't love these, but I was
gifted it.
So tell me, how would I goabout pruning that?
Because obviously I knew youwere going to say that Obviously
, there's the pruning that wewould have for a plum tree,
(57:05):
which is one plum tree on onerootstock, but this is three
plum trees on one rootstock.
Any recommendations?
I've looked at it the lastlittle while and I'm struggling
to get my head around how I'mactually going to prune this
tree.
Speaker 2 (57:18):
And it's such a challenge.
Like I learned to graft laterand I loved grafting and I love
multi fruit trees.
If you create them yourself,like I love the idea of having a
backyard tree like, let's say,a backyard apple tree and, once
it's a little bit mature,grafting on new branches.
And when you graft on those newbranches with different types
(57:39):
of fruit, you can have an appletree that has apples that ripen
in late August, apples thatripen in September, apples that
ripen in October.
You can have loads of differenttypes of apples on one mature
tree.
What you would do in that caseis you would use paint to
signify which are your graftedbranches so you don't
(58:00):
accidentally cut them off whenyou're pruning.
You need to know which are yourimportant branches.
Not a bad idea to do it withyour young multi-plum tree as
well, because as it gets olderit's going to have more branches
.
You need to know which are yourmain branches.
The problem with those that, theproblem here is that somebody
has created the structure foryou that you can't change,
(58:21):
because so I would look at amultifruit tree and the one
question I would ask is how canI improve air circulation
without removing any of thosebranches.
Those branches have to stay.
So if you see sprouts comingfrom the trunk, you know I'd
(58:42):
mentioned to you that withcentral leader you want clean
trunk in between your platforms.
You want two feet of cleantrunk so you can rub off sprouts
as they pop up, or snip themoff if they're already branches.
You can.
If you find one of your mainfruiting branches is getting a
bit heavy, you would still takeoff water sprouts.
(59:05):
Upward branches, you know onesthat don't produce fruit.
You can head it back so you canshorten the branch to thicken
it up a bit, to make it stronger, because that branch has to
stay right.
So there are certain thingsthat you can do.
What you can't do is sculpt theperfect fruit bearing structure
because it's already given youthe structure.
(59:26):
But you certainly can keep it.
You know good clean aircirculation as best you can.
Speaker 1 (59:32):
Yeah, yeah, for sure, because, as I say, I've looked
at it on numerous days and I'mstruggling to figure out what we
have to go at it, but, yeah, ithas to be done soon anyway.
So, yeah, so we mentioned books.
You've mentioned a couple ofthem as we chatted there.
So you've written is it fourbooks on fruit trees?
So tell us about those, justthe names of them, and are they
(59:55):
all still in publication?
And so on.
Speaker 2 (59:58):
Absolutely so.
My first one is called GrowingUrban Orchards and that talks
about my experience starting acommunity orchard and I said to
you that tells you the minimumyou need to know in order to
grow fruit trees successfully.
I've got one just here besideme, I've got Grow Fruit Trees
Fast and I like that bookbecause, again, this goes into
(01:00:19):
more depth but you can read itin an hour.
So if you're thinking ofplanting a fruit tree, get this,
read it first so you know whatyou need to do.
And if you have a fruit treethat you're baffled by, get this
.
Read this so you know what youneed to do.
So that's a quick read for busypeople, but you'll read it from
front to back.
You know in an hour and you'llknow what to do.
(01:00:41):
The third book is Fruit TreeGrafting for Everyone how to
cultivate or how to create yourown fruit trees.
I can't remember the subtitleand that was teaching me how to
do grafting and demystifying itand making it fun, which it is,
and then my.
You know I'm so excited.
The new book is called FruitTree Pruning the Science and Art
(01:01:04):
of Cultivating Healthy FruitTrees and it talks about
everything we've talked about inthe show, plus a lot more about
the science of pruning.
My goal there is to empower you.
Whatever tree you have, afterreading that book, you'll know
how to take care of it and pruneit.
So, in addition to that, I havemy podcast and it's on any
podcatcher and it's calledOrchard People and, like I said,
(01:01:26):
I interviewed these amazingexperts.
This is my continuing education.
I get to find any expert thatI'm interested in learning from
and I get to find out and learnfrom them.
And if you guys want to come ona ride and enjoy it with me,
then please tune into that.
And then, finally, if peopleare interested in my online
(01:01:48):
courses, you can find them atorchardpeoplecom.
And homeowners take them.
Anybody who wants to mastergardeners take them.
Arborists take them.
You can even get continuingeducation credits for arborists
and professional gardeners.
So, yeah, I've got lots ofresources and I've got articles
and all sorts of stuff.
And finally, oh my goodness,the YouTube channel is a lot of
(01:02:08):
fun.
A few years ago, I started todo all my podcasts in video
format because they're sointeresting, these people that
I'm interviewing and I cut in,we edit in pictures to bring it
all to life.
It's not just two peopletalking, so those are a lot of
fun too.
So it's the Orchard PeopleYouTube channel.
Speaker 1 (01:02:31):
So, yeah, it's been really interesting chat.
There's so much there, lots ofvery good information, deep
information, but also veryunderstandable information.
So thank you very, very muchfor coming on.
Mastermind Garden Podcast.
Speaker 2 (01:02:45):
Thank you so much, John, for having me.
You are really fun to chat with.
Speaker 1 (01:02:49):
So that's been this week's episode.
Huge thanks to Susan for comingon.
That was really.
Yes, there's some very goodstuff there.
Like we've said it before,healthy plants equals less
disease, and that's reallyimportant, and I think Susan
reinforced that there.
And there's great informationaround the pruning.
So, again, here in Ireland alot of us think of pruning as
just trying to keep something inshape, but you look at it from
(01:03:11):
a different angle, an angle of,you know, creating a healthier
plant, and that's really whereyou're coming at it from.
So it's not from the point ofview of keeping it in check or
keeping it in shape.
It's about creating a healthytree that will produce for you
for years and years to come.
So, yeah, loads of greatinformation there.
You can check out Susan'spodcast, her YouTube channel,
(01:03:32):
her books and all of the otherresources, online courses and so
on.
I'll put the link in the shownotes for anyone that wants to
check any of those out.
And that's been this week'sepisode.
Thanks for listening and untilthe next time, happy gardening,
thank you.
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