Empower Your Therapeutic Journey: Recognize and Prevent Therapy Abuse

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Unlock the secrets to a safe and empowering therapeutic journey with insights from Bernadine Fox, an award-winning mental health advocate with over 30 years of experience. We promise you'll learn not just how to find the right therapist, but also how to spot and avoid the red flags of therapy abuse. Navigate the complexities of therapist-client relationships with clarity and confidence, as we explore crucial strategies for verifying therapist credentials, setting clear goals and boundaries, and protecting yourself from exploitation.

Peel back the layers on the hidden dynamics of therapy abuse and exploitation, as Bernadine and I explore the chilling reality of how some therapists manipulate their clients through unethical power dynamics. Through a compelling discussion of the grooming, exploitation, and termination phases, we expose the tactics of love bombing, financial manipulation, and emotional control. We shine a light on the parallels between therapy abuse and other forms of exploitation, advocating for a trauma-informed approach to empower survivors and prevent further harm.

In our quest to guide you towards a healthy therapeutic experience, we delve into the profound challenges faced by survivors of therapy abuse, such as regaining trust and navigating new therapeutic relationships. We discuss the importance of structured therapy, regular assessments, and accountability, all while emphasizing the significance of supportive networks for those who have endured misconduct. Armed with resources and actionable advice, you'll be prepared to make informed decisions and advocate for a therapeutic environment that prioritizes your well-being and healing.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hello everyone.
This is your host, Keri Logan,at Master the Upper Rooms, and I
have a special guest today, andthe guest that I have today is
someone that I probably neverthought I would meet or learn
about or talk to, but she's heretoday to share some really
important information, or atleast I feel, and I hope you

(00:20):
would feel as well, is veryimportant.
So her name is Bernadine Fox,and she is an award-winning
mental health advocate with over30 years of experience, and has
become a voice for those whoare unable to speak about the
traumas they have suffered intheir therapeutic relationships.
Fox is an author of Coming toVoice, surviving an Abusive

(00:45):
Therapist and Volunteers.
She has an organization thatsupports victims of therapy
abuse worldwide and she is alsothe producer, slash host, of
Re-Threading Madness.
It's one of Canadians only onradio program about mental

(01:06):
health, which you know supportsthe global audience.
And today we are going to learnabout the red flags.
We're going to learn whatquestions to ask, what to look
for and also how to find thebest fit.
If you are seeking therapybecause if all of you have
listened to me, I always talkabout talk go to a therapist, go

(01:27):
to a therapist, go to a coach.
She'll even share informationabout coaches, which I was like,
oh no.
So there's so much wonderfulstuff she's going to share today
and I'm excited to have herwith me, so thank you so much
for having me.

Speaker 2 (01:50):
Thank you so much for having me.
I, I um, it's an importanttopic and I appreciate you
putting time in your schedulefor us to talk about this.
I just want to clarify onething, and that is that tell the
therapy exploitation link linethat does support survivors of
therapy abuse and exploitationis not my organization.
There is a whole group of uswho volunteer to provide support
and resources and networkingabilities to people who've gone

(02:11):
through this so that they arenot struggling alone.

Speaker 1 (02:14):
So, and it's all free , so no, thank you for sharing
that that it's all free Cause alot of people.
Sometimes they're like I can'tafford, you know, to do this.
Who do I talk to?

Speaker 2 (02:25):
Exactly, exactly.
So one of the things I wantedto start out talking about is
how to find a therapist, becausewe're kind of given these vague
sort of you have to go totherapy if you have a problem
and just go there and trust yourtherapist and tell them
whatever your issue is and andthey will help you that and you
need to find the right fit andyou need to find somebody with

(02:48):
appropriate boundaries.
The problem is that, as clientsof mental health services, we
are not given the parameters ofwhat that even looks like.
We were not told what ethicalboundaries are, and so we're
really at the mercy of ourtherapist to tell us and inform
us what those are and what's agood boundary and where not to

(03:10):
transgress and where not to goin that therapy because it will
ruin your therapeuticrelationship.
So good therapists whichthere's many of them out there
will hold those boundaries.
They will maintain it becausethey know that that is your
healing envelope, so to speak,that you need that structure to
be able to heal within, and theyhold it and they maintain it

(03:33):
and they're rigorous inmaintaining it.
A bad therapist will use thefact that clients don't know and
will come up with their ownboundaries and their own ideas
about what is okay and what'snot okay, and teaching the
client that it is okay to dowhatever because in some ways it
benefits them.
And what we're finding withtherapy abuse and exploitation

(03:54):
is the exploitation alwaysbenefits the therapist.
So, just to go back in terms ofhow to find a therapist, one of
the things to do is to kind offigure out what it is you want
out of therapy and and you don'tnecessarily, if you can't
figure it out, that's okay too.
That's that that may be thething you start working with in
the therapist, in withtherapists, in terms of what you

(04:15):
want to do.
So, in terms of finding atherapist, one of the things
several things that you want toknow is you want to know where
the professional went to school.
You want to know what degreeand certificate they have.
You want to know where they'reregistered Are they a part of a
college or an association or alicensing board?

(04:36):
And you want to know how longthey're working They've been
working in that, working in thatand maybe even some information
about their therapy modality,because there are very many
different kinds of ways thattherapists work and provide
therapy to their clients.
Once you have all thatinformation.
You can, and it's a good thingto do it right at the start

(04:59):
because it will avoid all kindsof issues.
If you're working with somebodywho, say, is a social worker
who lives in, works inCalifornia, they are licensed by
the Board of Behavioral Scienceand you can go to their website
, you can plug in their name andyou can check has this person
ever been disciplined foranything?
Do they still hold a license?

(05:20):
Are they still okay to work?
And that just is just a check.
It's sort of like checking outyour mechanic with anybody else
you know that has taken theircar there.
You just sort of a way of checkand whether or not that person
is an ethical therapist.
When you're ready to take thenext step, you can talk to the

(05:43):
therapist about your goals, andthese are good things to do
because it gives you ameasurement and a sort of a way
of seeing where your therapy isgoing.
It's really hard for clientswhen you go to a therapist and
you just go in and you talk andit's never set up what your goal
is, how much time you're goingto be there, what you know how
and how you're going to getthere.

(06:04):
So that gives you an idea ofwhat your therapy is going to
look like and it gives you somecontrol over where you're going
and how you're how you're doingthat.
So you also want to ask themabout their boundaries and this
will give you an idea of youknow where.
You know.
Do they accept calls late atnight?

(06:26):
Do they?
Will they answer an email?
All of those things areimportant for you to know so
that you can adhere to whattheir boundaries are and it's
not a surprise later on.
Or you can talk about I have aproblem with that boundary.
It's because of this and thetherapist can talk about it and
you guys can figure out and knowwhy that boundary is there and

(06:46):
what it's important for.
Lots of people want to givegifts to their therapist and of
course that's one of those grayareas.
You know.
Some people say it can't beover a certain monetary value,
but and it does seem benign youknow why can't I give a gift to
my therapist?
Talking to your therapist willhelp you know why that is an
important thing to do.

(07:07):
The other thing you can do,once you know where they're
licensed, is you can actually goonline and pull their ethical
guidelines that they've agreedto and adhered to, so you know.
So part of what we're finding,like I said before, is clients
enter therapy and they don'tknow what the ethical guidelines
are, and so if you have a copyof them, you're going to know
and you're going to know whenyour therapist transgresses that

(07:30):
boundary.
The reason that's important andwhy we suggest people do this is
because once the grooming andexploitation start, it's really
hard to kind of navigate yourway out of that.
But if you're already gettingan idea that this person has
transgressed this guideline orthat one, then you've got a
heads up that something's wrongin your therapy and you can talk

(07:53):
about it, talking with thetherapist that says you know, I
know that this is an ethicalguideline you have to follow,
but you're not following it.
So why is that?
Those kinds of conversationscan actually alert an abusive
therapist who is intent onexploiting their clients that
they don't want to exploit you,because you know, you know
what's going on, so it may infact save you down the line.

(08:15):
So we want to talk about andagain I'm going to say again,
it's really important for us tosay that there are a lot of good
therapists out there.
In the work that I do, I canfall into feeling like they are
all bad, because I see it overand over and over and I hear it

(08:38):
over and over and the ways thatabusive therapists abuse their
clients and exploit them is sopredictable.
It's like there's a playbookout there and so that can make
you feel like you know there areway too many out there, that
all of them are bad.
But it's truly not true.

(08:58):
There are lots of goodtherapists.
So let's start by looking atwhat is therapy, abuse and
exploitation and please, youknow, interrupt me if you feel I
haven't answered or somethingconfusing.

Speaker 1 (09:13):
I did want to throw one thing out there for people,
because I'm a therapist as wella clinical certified
hypnotherapist and when I renewevery year my certification well
, they stopped after 20 yearsthey're like no, you're in here
Every time.
I would renew.
They would give me the code ofconduct literally printed out,

(09:37):
and when you see a therapist,you can ask for that.
I'd like a copy of your code ofconduct.
I even made a YouTube videowhen I started getting more
popular and I read out here's mycode of conduct.
I even put on my website thecode of conduct for people to
see, because I was being askedto do things that I felt was

(10:00):
immoral and unethical.
It's like no, I'm not going todo this.
So they are literally given adocument that they should have
on display or on hand, or evenframed up on their wall.
This is the code of conduct ofwhat they should and what they

(10:20):
can do.
So I do fully agree with that.
The hard part, too, is I lovedwhen you were talking about
boundaries.
Boundaries are for our safetyand our security, and when
people grow up in a toxic homeenvironment, there are no
boundaries.
So for them I would really saylearn about boundaries, educate

(10:46):
yourself about boundaries, learnto start to set your own
boundaries, because when you, ifyou, fall into the trap of
meeting, let's say, the wrongtherapist.
They're going to know rightaway.
You don't know what boundariesare and that's how they can take
advantage of you and manipulateyou, because you haven't

(11:07):
established them for yourselfand with others already.
And that's probably a lot oftimes.
Why people go to therapy isthey're dealing with people that
push their boundaries andtrigger them.
Yeah, and it's so true that somany people have been
traumatized in childhood.

Speaker 2 (11:20):
Yeah, and it's so true that so many people have
been traumatized in childhood.
Basically are sitting ducks, inmy opinion, to these people
because they really don't know,and when that therapist starts
pushing those boundaries andstarting to exploit them, that
can end up feeling really normal, because that was their child.
That's what they grew up with,and so it's really hard for them

(11:42):
to identify what's going on inthis.

Speaker 1 (11:52):
I had a conversation with a lady just today and when
she was explaining what it waslike growing up for her, I said
that becomes the norm for youand it's not normal.
So someone that did not, wasn'traised in a dysfunctional home
environment, goes in your house.
They're going to be like whoaeveryone's yelling at each other
, calling each other names.
You know in, you know, baitingthem, insulting them,

(12:14):
undermining them, stonewallingthem.
They'll be like this is crazymaking, but that's the norm,
yeah yeah, exactly.

Speaker 2 (12:25):
So let me talk a little bit about what therapy
abuse and exploitation is.
There is a whole sort ofcontinuum of harm that can
happen in therapy, and so atherapist could be having a bad
day and say the wrong thing andsay something that harms their
client.
That is not what we're talkingabout here.
We are talking about a verylike I said, it's almost a

(12:46):
playbook a very particular formof trauma that happens in
therapy and therapy abuse andexploitation happens when an
abusive therapist misuses thepower and authority they have in
the therapeutic relationship togroom clients to accept being
exploited and then they misuseit again at the end of the

(13:07):
relationship and theserelationships always end, I
don't care where on thecontinuum they are, they always
end and they always end in a waythat is not to the benefit of
the victim, and they misuse thatpower and authority again to
ensure that their victim issilenced and discredited.
And I think one of the thingsthat we, even therapists,

(13:28):
sometimes don't fully understandI'm sure you do is the level of
power and authority they haveover their client.
There are some who think, oh no, no, I don't have any power, I
follow the client.
The client is complete control.
But the truth is is that yourclient is reading you like a
book and is figuring out whatyou want them to do and is doing
what you want, and so nottaking responsibility for that

(13:51):
power and authority can causeharm.
These people know when theywent to school and were told in
that first class which I'mhearing is what happens I
haven't been to school fortherapy is that this is
transference and you don'tmisuse transference.
This is what you do with it.
They are going.
These people are going.
I can use that.
I can use the fact that theyare falling in love with me and

(14:13):
have sexual feelings for me andthen they exploit that and move
with it.
So therapy abuse can includeall manner of things.
I'm going to talk a bit about afew of them and, like I said, I
call it TAE because therapyabuse and exploitation is a
mouthful.
So TAE is a very specific formof trauma.

(14:37):
Victims will experience harmduring the grooming phase, which
can include things like lovebombing and over-the-top
compliments.
They will experience harmduring the exploitation phase,
which is when the client isasked to do things for the
therapist anything from walkingtheir dog to having sex and when
the relationship terminates andthe abusive therapist then

(14:58):
fears disclosure for theircrimes and in 21 states in the
US it is a crime to have sexwith your client.
They will attack the client andthere is harm in that as well.
And it's important to rememberthat abusive therapists have
been trained on, like any goodtherapist has, on human behavior
the mind, what motivates how tohow to do those things.

(15:19):
So, whereas a perpetrator ofsexual abuse of a child, sexual
abuse or spousal battery mightuse physical harm to control
their victims when things areerupting, a therapist will use
emotional harm and I will getmore into that and of course,
they're very well equipped to beable to use that emotional harm

(15:39):
if they've been doing therapywith somebody who has revealed
all their secrets andvulnerabilities to them.
That termination phase is oneof the hardest parts for people
because they went from lovebombing, where their therapist
seemed to love them and thinkthey're special, and to a
situation Devaluing yeah, oh mygod.
It is on par with narcissisticabuse, where you have this love

(16:04):
bombing and then you'rediscarded.
So there's three distinct phasesof therapy abuse and
exploitation and, as I just said, they're grooming, exploitation
and termination.
In the grooming phase you canthink of grooming as that.
It's anything that enables theexploitation to occur.
So it can include calling thevictim special, which if you

(16:27):
know about child sexual abuse,that's going to hearken back to
what offenders say to theirvictims all the time.
You are my special person.
I like you more than any otherone of my clients.
They might give gifts, theymight create a sense of
financial indebtedness.
Create a sense of financialindebtedness, they might push
the boundaries around, touch andthey will encourage the victim

(16:49):
to feel responsible for theperpetrator's well-being.
Now, this is nothing new,because we know this happens in
child sexual abuse.
We know this happens in spousalbattery where the offenders are
saying if you go to the police,I will end up in jail.
So there's this whole groomingaround making sure the victim
takes care of the perpetrator Inthe exploitation phase once

(17:13):
it's moved out of grooming,although everything kind of
meshes in.
We have four different specifictypes of exploitation.
One is financial.
So in that situation we havepeople who have been giving huge
gifts to their therapist.
So I'm not talking about thecard they made or the little

(17:35):
picture they painted.
I shouldn't say little picturethey painted, because some
people are artists and theycreate amazing things.
I'm talking about cars andvacations and thousands of
dollars of Christmas bonuses.
And you know, we have one womanwho ultimately it was hundreds

(17:58):
of thousands of dollars that shewas exploited for.
It's terrible, it really isterrible was exploited for it's
terrible, it really is terrible.
Borrowing money from yourclient, using your client's
credit to purchase a business ora property, together there's
physical exploitation and thatis it's kind of a misnamed in

(18:22):
some ways, but I'm not reallysure how else to define it.
It's sort of when the therapistuses their client as their
gopher.
They walk the dog, they cleanthe car, they go and pick up
errands, they take care of theirmom, they take care of their
kids, they clean their house,they clean their office, they
paint their office, yada, yada.
They do all theiradministrative work Because they

(18:44):
know they're a people pleaser.
That may be true, but they'vealso been groomed, and so you
know.
I think that one of the thingswe misunderstand is that this
can happen to anybody.
So we have a whole host ofprofessionals who've gone
through their own training,who've gone through their own
education about ethicalboundaries, who have been

(19:07):
exploited by their own therapist.
And it's a particularly hardthing for them because they
berate themselves with how didthis happen?
I should have known better, butthe abusive therapist uses that
.
You know we can transgress thisboundary because you're special
, you're different, you're aprofessional.
We can handle this, we can movewith this.

(19:27):
And the truth is is that thatrelationship between therapist
and client, the power imbalance,is so significant that up here
our College of Physicians andSurgeons says it's the
equivalent of parent-child.
Surgeon says it's theequivalent of parent-child.
You know.
So it doesn't matter where youare, what profession you are or

(19:52):
how smart you were when youwalked into therapy, because of
that power imbalance you can begroomed and exploited.
So this is why shows like thisare important is to give us
knowledge.
You can.
You know, hopefully somebodywill hear this and when that

(20:12):
might start happening to them,they can go no, okay, I'm out of
here, I'll go find somebodyelse.
So the therapist eventually hasturned the session around so
that the client comes in, paystheir money for their session
and then sits and listens to thetherapist talk about their
problems, and that can go on foryears.

(20:42):
So there's other ways thatemotional exploitation happens,
but that's the one that's themost clear example of it.
And of course there's sexualexploitation and we all kind of
you know.
Anybody who's paying attentionto the news knows about human
trafficking, knows about whatsexual exploitation is.
Here you have a situation whereyou know the therapist the
abusive therapist is pushing theboundaries of touch.
It's incorporating sexualcontent into the therapeutic

(21:03):
sessions and of course that getsa little mucky because of
course your sex life is a partof your therapy session.
It's a part of moving forwardand there's things that
therapists need to ask.
An abusive therapist will startexploiting it.
They'll start pushing thesessions back to their sexual
contact all the way.
So touch talking about it,they'll share their own sex life

(21:26):
, they'll talk about theproblems they're having in their
marriage around their sex lifeand they will.
Ultimately, the final part ofthat, of course, is sexual
intercourse and of course one ofthe things that doesn't really
fit in all of that is the client, who has been exploited to the
point where they have been ropedinto a committed relationship,

(21:49):
whether it's a partnershipthat's committed or a marriage.
That's when things start to geteven muckier, because then
people start to think thatmarriage sanitizes what's
happened, and nothing could befarther from the truth.
That person is still a victimand they are basically being
trapped into a legalrelationship at that point,

(22:26):
ongoing sexual relationship withsomebody that is making you do
that, but doing it throughemotional coercion.
And we have our popular TVscripts and movies that use it
as a part of the script, butthen don't really.
They misrepresent the impact onthe victim.
And so there's this idea thatit's a romantic relationship and
that it's like any otherromantic relationship and the

(22:49):
victim doesn't get harmed in anymore capacity than that, and
that's just simply not true.
It's not a romance, it's not amarriage, it's not an affair.
This person isn't your lover,this is your rapist who is
trapping you in a sexualactivity that you may not even
want.
So many times people say Idon't even know how this
happened, I wasn't evenattracted to him, I would never

(23:12):
have slept with him, but it'sbecause of the power and
authority and basically beingexploited in that way.

Speaker 1 (23:20):
Well, I, never Hold on a sec, I never touch my my
clients.
The only time I have touched aclient is when I'm doing like
past life regression or I'mdoing anchoring, and I will tell
them in advance are youcomfortable with me touching
your foot, your right foot?
Are you comfortable with that,Are you?

(23:42):
And you know, and this is thepurpose of why I would do that,
I, I, I let them know ahead oftime and if they say no, then I
tell them okay, well, here'sanother way we can anchor it.
When I say this, I'm going towant you to do this with your
hand or do this Right.
That's something I thinkanybody going to see a therapist

(24:03):
should say I'm not comfortablebeing touched, Period, that's my
boundary.
If you're going to do work whereyou have to touch me, you need
to talk to me about that firstand I get to decide if I'm
comfortable with that, because,as you know, there's many
different modalities a personcan take.

(24:24):
They don't have to take onethat you actually physically
touch a client Right exactly,and all kinds of things can
happen without having touch.

Speaker 2 (24:35):
Now we have to be very careful about the concept
of consent because in thissituation we have abusive
therapists who are coercingconsent out of their clients.
The biggest, most famous caseup here in Vancouver, bc, is
Professor Tyhurst, who wasactually the dean of our major
university here, the Universityof BC.
He was the dean of psychiatry.

(24:56):
He was seeing patients and hewas getting them to sign master
slave contracts so that he couldsexually do whatever he wanted
to.
So it gives us a really sort ofclear thing that says just
getting consent isn'tnecessarily enough.
Yes, it doesn't always mean yes, which makes this all kind of
mucky and people just go.

(25:18):
But we just got to no means no,how does yes might mean no, I
mean yeah, it is hard.
It does take a sophisticatedattitude towards it and one of
the things I tell people is thatjust because something is on
the checklist of what happens,you have to take it all in
context.
So you touching somebody's footand getting consent for that

(25:40):
does not mean you're exploitingthem.
It's a whole sort of packagethat goes on in there.
So thank you for bringing thatup.
It's a very important part onin there.
So thank you for bringing thatup.
It's a very important part.
The next thing that happens andthis happens in any abusive
relationship.
Hopefully it terminates rightand we hope that for the victim.
So the therapeutic relationshipthat's built on such an

(26:01):
enormous imbalance of power inmy opinion can never be equal.
It doesn't matter if you marry,it doesn't matter if you have
kids, it doesn't matter.
That relationship's foundationis on that imbalance of power
and it doesn't change, it islifelong.
And that again is alsosupported by the college and
other people who know this topicis that this is not something

(26:22):
that gets undone.
Once you are a therapist, youare that person's therapist and
it doesn't change.
But when it starts to terminate, abusive therapists who fear
exposure of their transgressionswill again misuse that power
and authority.
They have to either silencetheir victim and or discredit

(26:43):
them.
So as I go through, see, let memake sure.
So let's talk about silencing.
One of the things that they dois they will ask the victim to
get rid of all their taxmessages or all their photos or
anything gifts that they gavethem, anything that is evidence
of that transgression.
And if the client goes alongwith that and agrees not to say

(27:18):
anything, which lots do, becausethey don't understand.
They think this is just tabooand they're not recognizing the
harm yet.
And so lots of them will goalong violence that they have to
start pushing the person to dothat.
So in that they will startusing threats of I'm going to
tell your secrets that you toldme in therapy, or pushing on

(27:41):
their vulnerabilities, and ifthat doesn't work, they'll go
all out and they will stalk theperson.
They will excuse me.
They have been known to callauthorities on them and claim
that they are a harm tothemselves or others.
So they end up getting pickedup and committed and thereby

(28:02):
discredited.
They've been known to changenotes in the file.
I was just going to go there.
There you go.
So change notes in the file andcall them borderline, because
borderline unfortunately has astigma and people don't believe
people who are borderline, andthey, you know you couple that
with abandoning somebody.

(28:22):
You've said I'm never going toleave you, I'm the only person
that can help you, you are themost amazing thing, and then
suddenly I hate you and go awayand don't ever talk to me again.
You've got abandonment issuescoming up and then you tweak the
borderline.
It's just.
It makes it really easy forthem to discredit their client
that's trying to get away fromthe harm.

Speaker 1 (28:45):
So what I would tell people is if they ask you to do
that to get rid of the evidence,do screenshots, do screenshots
of it, and then you can deleteit and be like okay, I deleted
all our emails, but in realityyou really didn't.
Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2 (29:03):
Screenshots.
One of the things that kind ofgives us a hint into the
diabolical nature of theseabusers is that they will
actually set up covert ways ofcommunicating with their client.
So they set up an email addressand they send emails back and
forth via draft.

(29:24):
So nothing goes out, nothingcomes in, it's all drafts.
And so what happens is both ofthem can sign into the account.
They can read what the otherperson wrote to them, but if
anything is going, if theabusive therapist feels at risk,
they can simply delete theaccount, and there's no evidence

(29:45):
that that happened.
Same with Google Docs.
I've heard it being happeningwith Google Docs.
They share a Google Doc fileand they can write things back
and forth to each other, and ifthere is a risk that they're
going to be disclosed on, theyjust simply delete the Google
Doc.

Speaker 1 (30:01):
Well, you can.
Some people don't know this.
Also, if you're on a PC, youcan hit print screen and you can
literally I mean, that'sactually what I did.
You know what I did with your,the calling card that you had,
is it was too long for me toactually get the whole image
without, so I did print screenhere, print screen there, so I

(30:25):
got all the information, but youcan't.
And then it goes into thepicture folder on your computer,
into screenshots.
Yeah, and that's another way.
If you're worried, you canprotect yourself.
Yeah, they can delete it, butyou still have the evidence.

Speaker 2 (30:44):
Yeah, we do do a lot of work with people about what
is evidence and how to collectthat evidence so that it is able
to be used as evidence.
So red flags let's talk alittle bit about what red flags
are and they're kind of sort ofrepeating, in some ways, the

(31:08):
stuff we've talked about, butit's important to reiterate it.
So a red flag around thegrooming process is daily
contact.
Therapists will give theirphone number.
They say call me anytime.
They'll call their client.
They'll send memes, they sendtexts, or they have sessions or
they have two or three sessionsin.
You know a week Now.

(31:28):
Two or three sessions a youknow a week Now.
Two or three sessions a weekisn't necessarily a bad thing.
They also will set up thissession to be at the last
session of the day and we saythat on the checklist.
But of course we also have tosay is every therapist has a
last session of the day.
Just because you are in thatplace doesn't mean that that's a
bad thing.
They do it because they arewanting to be able to extend the

(31:53):
session.
And also there's a point ifthey're working in an office,
there's a point at which peoplein the office go home and so,
therefore, they are alone withtheir client in that place.
They will break theconfidentiality of other clients
with you.
For me, as an abuse survivormyself, I did all the

(32:13):
administration work for mytherapist and so I ended up
knowing all of her clients.
I knew who all of them were andI knew because of that what
their issues were and what theywere working on in therapy All
of those things I should notknow.
They will do a lot of lovebombing and, like I talked about
before, they will call theirclients special.

(32:34):
You're different, you'reamazing, you're so incredible.
You do such great work.
And they do that to kind of youkind of get taken off guard if
somebody really really likes you, right, so they'll set
themselves up as the only personwho can help that client.
So no one else will understandyou.

(32:55):
No one else can help you.
I'm the only one willing to.
You know, do these things orrisk my own practice to give you
what you need, and often thatis around things like having sex
.
Actually, that's one of thethings that they'll do.
They've said is that this iswhat you needed of.
That's one of the things thatthey'll do, they've said is that
this is what you needed.
It's a part of your treatment,but the ethical guidelines say I
can't do that.
But I'm willing to take thatrisk, risk my practice, to give

(33:19):
you what you need so you canheal.
Um, and of course the poorclient has no idea that that is
absolutely, completely not okay.
They will isolate their victimsso that any friends or family
that are around them they areseparating them from that.
And we see that as well inchild sexual trauma and we see

(33:40):
that in spousal battering, whereabusers will isolate their
victims.
Often, when people finallyfigure out, hey, this is not
okay, what's happening is notokay, they look around and they
literally have no one left.
Everybody has been estrangedfrom them.
They'll foster dependency.

(34:03):
And we go back to that dailycontact.
If you have daily contact withyour therapist, every issue you
have in your life you arerunning by them and so at some
point you no longer makedecisions on your own.
You wait to talk to yourtherapist and what do you think?
And they will create dependencyaround.

(34:23):
Well, I'll give you anotherexample.
If your client, if a client,comes into therapy and says
nobody has ever loved me andthere are people out there who
have never felt love in theirwhole lives and they feel
unlovable because of it.
The therapist can work with you.
I'm sure you know this.
You can work with that personto understand that feeling, to

(34:47):
move through that feeling, tocome through it someplace on the
other side.
The lazy way of doing that isto understand that feeling, to
move through that feeling, tocome through it someplace on the
other side.
The lazy way of doing that isto say oh, no, no, no, I love
you, I care about you, and thenit's not dealt with, it's not
worked on, and so the personstill has that feeling, they
still feel like that, but theydon't feel like they can talk
about it and they don't feellike and they're absolutely

(35:09):
dependent on that person whosaid I love you because that's
the only person now that's everloved them.
So they create dependency in avariety of ways until the person
is so dependent on that personfor almost everything.
So they are their social life,they are the, the only person
they know.
They're the person they go toto make decisions, they are the

(35:30):
person that gives them anemotional relationship of any
kind.
And when the therapist feelsthis is how it works is when the
therapist feels at risk andpulls away or shuts the door,
that person is left all alonewith nobody, feeling completely
abandoned and unable, with nolife skills, to figure it out,

(35:51):
because the therapist didn'tteach them life skills in there.
They'll do a lot of pushing theboundaries around physical
contact, so they'll put a handon the leg and the next time
they put it up a little higherand a little higher and a little
higher, just to kind of pushand see how far they can go.
They'll do a lot of stuffaround secrets, um, and and I've

(36:11):
seen examples where they'veactually tested the, the client,
to see whether or not they willkeep a secret, um and they'll
do a lot of oversharing ofpersonal information.
All we have to do is look at um, um, stockholm syndrome and I
know some people think thatthat's not a real thing but in
Stockholm, yeah, stockholmsyndrome the offender, the

(36:35):
person that's doing the thing toyou, is telling you a lot of
personal information about them.
This is my child and this iswhat happened.
This is why I'm here.
You know I didn't want to behere.
And what happens in that is youdevelop in your client a sense
of responsibility for thewell-being of the abusive
therapist, and that is what theyuse on the tail end to try and

(36:57):
keep people from talking.
So I think I already wentthrough exploitation and what
that looks like.
So you financial, physical,emotional and sexual
exploitation.
And always remember thegrooming is there to make the
exploitation possible.
It grooms the client to acceptthe exploitation On the tail end

(37:21):
.
Therapy abuse survivors I'msorry.
Abusive therapists act likeevery other offender we know.
So we want to believe thattherapists have come into this
profession to do good and mostof them are that they would not

(37:43):
purposely harm somebody, harmsomebody.
But when you're talking aboutan abusive therapist, you're
already talking about somebodywho is not in that realm, is not
working on the same plane asthe good therapist.
They are like every otheroffender and one of the things
that's true for me is that I wasthere when rape victims were

(38:05):
being recognized and changeswere made in court to protect
them and you couldn't talk aboutthe length of their skirt or
their sexual history anymore toget the offender off.
You know, I was there when childsexual abuse was being
recognized and people weregetting it that when children
disclosed, you believed them,you didn't send them back home

(38:26):
to their abusers and we weregetting help for those people.
Um, I was there when spousalbatteries, so you know, was
being recognized and we start,we created transition houses for
women to get away and ways forthem to get away.
I was there when humantrafficking finally was being um
dealt with in canada.
I don't know about the states,but in canada they they at one
point thought, and this we'retalking early 90s.

(38:46):
They were saying, oh no,speaking finally was being dealt
with in Canada.
I don't know about the States,but in Canada they at one point
thought, and this we're talkingearly 90s.
They were saying, oh no, no,that doesn't happen here.
That was the police, the Me Toomovement.
You know all of these things,the clergy abuse, all of those
things I have lived through andI can tell you the abusive
therapist is an offender justlike every other offender in any

(39:11):
one of those things.
So if you know about trauma andyou're trauma informed and you
understand the offender and thevictim in any form of trauma,
you will understand therapy,abuse and exploitation, because
it is exactly the same thing.
So when abusive therapists areabout to get caught and they
can't get their victim to getrid of everything and they can't

(39:31):
get them to be quiet and shutup, then what they will do is
they will go into what iscommonly known as DARBO, which
is deny, attack and reverse thevictim and offender roles
initially try and, like I said,use the grooming.

(39:51):
Or they may, you know, respondto a licensing board thing
saying I never did anything likethis.
She wanted to have a sexualrelationship with me and I said
no, and so she's just mad at mebecause I won't sleep with her.
They will, and if that doesn'twork, they'll attack.
So it goes from um well, evenin that one there's an attack,
right, but they will also, uh,set up, uh ways of using

(40:13):
emotional abuse.
They will threaten to tell yoursecrets.
They will use all the thingsthey know that will trigger you
to trigger you into one of theworst emotional places you can
ever imagine being as a personon this planet.

Speaker 1 (40:26):
Um, and if all you're doing to submission is really
what they're doing to get you tocomply and to submit and and a
lot of people do.

Speaker 2 (40:35):
A lot of people say I , I don't know, I don't think I
can cope with them tellingpeople my secrets.
I don't know where they thinktheir therapist can tell those
secrets.
I'm I haven't really quitefigured that out.

Speaker 1 (40:49):
But they serious because it goes against their
code of conduct.
They're not allowed to sharethat stuff outside the office
space.
They're not.

Speaker 2 (41:00):
No, they're not yeah.

Speaker 1 (41:02):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (41:04):
But they can go to the police and say I'm worried
about my client.
They can do things that makeyou feel very, very vulnerable
and feeling know the things theway the therapist groomed them

(41:32):
and made them feel special, youknow, move through the
exploitation where they feelsome people have called it
feeling like the only thing Iwas ever good for in my life was
sex, and they proved it, youknow right through to the
termination place where they'rebeing discarded.
Basically, there's a lot ofemotional damage that goes along
with that, and there's also alot of physical damage.

(41:53):
It's one of the things thatwe're starting to recognize is
that, in the same way, stress inthe body will cause physical
damage for anybody.
This situation is so stressfuland hard on people to get
through that they are alsohaving the same kind of physical
reaction.
So so one of them is stressseizures.

(42:13):
We started to hear victimstalking about how, all of a
sudden, they were havingseizures that they'd never had
before so also a psychologicalabuse, because they're totally
manipulated, absolutely so.
I just want to give a rundown,because we really have this idea
and we can go back to say rapeand there were.

(42:35):
The uneducated perspective backthen was that it wasn't rape,
you just agreed to it.
And now you changed your mind.
Right, there was some idea thatyou consented, you went along
with this and there was no harm.
Therapy abuse and exploitationis incredibly damaging and there
is an assumption of lack ofharm because of how it's

(42:55):
misrepresented in popularculture and because in lots of
ways, even therapists are nottrained on the damage that
happens to a survivor of therapyabuse and exploitation.
So I just want to run throughsome of them.
One of the most common one isprofound anxiety and panic
attacks.
So I'm not talking about, youknow, just feeling a little

(43:17):
anxious.
I'm talking overwhelminganxiety that you go through 24-7
for weeks at a time that'spunctuated with panic attacks,
the inability to eat or sleep,stress seizures, which I talked
about, of course, chronicpost-traumatic stress disorder
and Stockholm syndrome, whichboth of those things complicate

(43:39):
how somebody is presenting tothe world Stockholm syndrome.
We have survivors often who willgo to a board.
They hear that their therapistis being investigated and they
will go to the board and lie andwork to help that person, not
have to be held accountable forwhat they did to another client.

(44:01):
Dysregulation which impacts ontheir ability to work or
function and consequently leavesthem at risk for losing their
job, their housing and sometimestheir children.
The inability to trust is a bigone and the betrayal in this is
so profound that that inabilityto trust is going to impact on

(44:26):
all their relationships to trustis going to impact on all their
relationships, so as they'retrying to build relationships
back with their family orfriends or even their children,
it is impacted by a tremendousfear of trusting.
And that is also true forsubsequent therapists, even just
going into another therapistwho may very well be a good

(44:48):
therapist, because they use someof the same techniques and the
office is set up in the same wayand a lot of stuff in therapy
becomes very, very triggeringfor them.

Speaker 1 (44:59):
I wanted to throw one thing in there and this
actually popped in my mind andthis might spare some people is
when I took my daughter to childcare.
I did independent you knowpeople that weren't in a
facility and she got hurt.
She literally got hurt and I'msorry and I learned the hard way

(45:24):
.
Literally the hard way toprotect her was get her in a
facility, an organization,because the emails are through
that organization.
They have to follow theguidelines of that clinic.
So I'm what I'm kind ofsuggesting is don't go private
practice.
Go for a place that hasmultiple therapists and one

(45:47):
organization, you know, and askthe question of how long is the
session going to be.
Is it 45 minutes, you know?
Is it 50 minutes, what is thecutoff, and how.
You do see other therapists inthe office.
I think that's a safer way togo about it.
So, like with my daughter, Ihad to put her in preschool and

(46:08):
I knew she'd be and she was.
She was a lot safer.
Everyone was held accountable.
The state investigated it, youknow, did all.
They had all those protocolsthey had to follow.
So and I did want sometime,cause I know there's so much we
got to share, how you weresharing with me about when a
therapist loses her license,they go into coaching, and that

(46:32):
was a shock.
I was like no, yeah.

Speaker 2 (46:35):
Yeah, and then what's terrible?
We're, we're seeing how whathappens when they lose their
license.
We have somebody who simplybecame a sex therapist because
it's regulated.
You know we need to, you knowwe there.
I live in a province wheretherapists and counselors are
not regulated and so you canthrow up a shingle, call

(47:00):
yourself a counselor, charge 150bucks an hour with absolutely
no training whatsoever and nooversight by anybody.
So we also have a level wherepeople are it's true for my
therapist where you are aprofessional and you join a

(47:20):
professional association andthey vet you and they give you
some credibility as aprofessional because of that,
because you are a member there.
But the problem with that is isthat when you make a complaint
to that organization, becauseit's a nonprofit association,
they can only work with theirmembers, so all the abusive

(47:43):
therapist has to do is resigntheir membership and the
investigation closes and it'sdone, it's gone, wow.
So there's all these littleloopholes that happen, and
becoming a coach is one of them,unfortunately, because I think
there are, like therapists, alot of really good therapists
out there.

(48:03):
One of the other things victimsoften have to face is victim
blaming, where their friendstell them they're a horrible
person for what they did that'sawful.
Tell them they're a horribleperson for what they did that's
awful, you know.
Or they get victimized by aninstitution where they're not
being recognized for what theyare.
They're being told they had aromantic relationship and they

(48:24):
consented to all of this and sothey shouldn't be coming to them
for a complaint.
All of that stuff.
When you add all of it up, youadd up what happened to them in
therapy and then what happens tothem after therapy and what
they're dealing with it, itbrings that person to an
untenable position where theyare at a greater risk many, many

(48:48):
times greater risk of suicidethan any other victim population
.
And so we are often dealingwith people who feel very
suicidal, who are and who can'tgo to see a therapist because
that's the person who hurt them,and so they're very isolated
and very alone, which why?
What makes what TEL does very,very important?

(49:09):
In that they are a free serviceand they do a lot of ongoing
support with people in thatsituation.
So the victim will experienceboth emotional and physical
damage from therapy abuse.

Speaker 1 (49:25):
so and they'll be afraid to, you know, and that
can create fear to when theyactually do need therapy later
on.
They're afraid to share,they're they're afraid, they're
so guarded, and that's.

Speaker 2 (49:42):
Not only that, they can't trust a therapist oh, I
know they have a hard time evenpicking up the phone and calling
and saying are you takingclients?
Because they no longer trustthe profession.
So it makes it very, verydifficult and one of the things

(50:02):
that I think has happened overthe years like TAL, has been
around for 40 years In the last10 years, of course, social
media has exploded.
We have all kinds of platforms.
We have all kinds of ways forsurvivors to find each other, to
talk to each other, to providesupport for each other, and that
has changed this issue.

(50:23):
We're starting to get a senseof just how often it happens and
people are coming from all overthe globe.
This is not a North Americanthing.
We have people from Mexico andGermany and the UK and Norway
and Romania and New Zealand andAustralia.
So this is an issue thathappens all across the globe and

(50:43):
it makes sense because if youhave somebody who's willing to
abuse power to get what theywant and what they need, they're
going to do it, whether they'rea therapist or the guy down the
street, if they've got thatpower.
So so one of the things I wantto talk about is what to do if
you've experienced this, becauseit is possible that you have
listeners who's gotten to thispoint in the show and you go oh

(51:06):
crap, that happened to me, um,and and and or it's happening to
my friend or someone.
I know, absolutely, absolutely.
So I just want to talk a littlebit about what people can do if
this has happened to them orsomebody they love.
The first thing is to recognizethat you are not alone.

(51:26):
There are services out therefor you.
They may not be next door inyour city, but they do exist and
you can access them.
So there are Facebook groupsand there are subreddit groups
and organizations like TAL.
There's also Advocate Web andthere's a couple other websites
that you can get to.
You can find those by using thehashtag therapy abuse all one

(51:49):
word and, of course, facebookgroups and subreddits, even the
organization like TEL.
We aren't therapists there, butit does offer peer support, and
peer support is a known thingthat provides a lot of healing
opportunities for people andhelps people get through things
so that they can stay stable andmove on with their lives.

(52:12):
If they can't see a therapist,they can stay stable and move on
with their lives if they can'tsee a therapist.
So you can also look to find apeer support worker, somebody
who's also gone through it,whose function and job is to
specifically help you getthrough it using their own lived
experience and or supportgroups.
I don't want to tout my ownhorn here, but I do run a

(52:33):
support group and it's actuallythe only support group I know
for survivors at this point.
It's online, so it's accessibleto anybody across the world.
Read, if you're a reader.
If not, get Audible or makeyour computer read it to you.

(52:53):
A reader?
Um, if not, get audible or makeyour computer read it to you,
yeah, um, there's a lot ofwritten material out there and
there are books out there.
Um, I, I can speak for tellbecause I volunteer at tell and
they have an entire website fullof essays and papers, a free
ebook with chapters fromfirst-hand accounts from
survivors, but also chaptersfrom lawyers and other people,

(53:18):
therapists in the industry.
So it's a very complete set oftypes of resources.
So podcasts, written material,books, etc.
So do a lot of reading, learnabout this thing and you will
find yourself in those pages andbe able to locate.

(53:40):
You know where you fit intherapy, abuse and exploitation.
So the I just want to go, oh.
Oh, the other thing, sorry.

Speaker 1 (53:56):
Well, let me explain one thing while you're looking
for that.
Yes, I, just to let people know, I've done therapy before for
myself, because I experiencedPTSD and when I went to a
therapist I did ask you know, doyou have your code of contact?
What?
What is the protocol?
They're supposed to hand thatto you.

(54:17):
I asked what it?
You know you're going to do atreatment assessment.
Okay, then give me.
Tell me what that treatmentassessment is.
How long do you project thattreatment assessment is?
What things do I need toachieve you?
know, like when it goes to PTSD.
It was.
You know dislike in activities,you know insomnia, trouble

(54:41):
sleeping, flashbacks.
You know they go over thatwhole criteria with you and
setting those goals.
So if anyone wants to know thisis how therapy should be, this
is.
You know what the goals is.
This is what we're going towork on.
How many sessions do you thinkit's going to be?
It's going to?
You know, I never, ever, getemail.

(55:03):
I mean, I sometimes get emailswhere it's like we need to
cancel this appointment orreschedule, but I do not get
personal emails.
I have never gotten personaltext messages.
I've never gotten her personal.
You know email or tech or cellphone, anything offered, any of

(55:23):
that.
You got to call into the office, call into the office and you
know schedule, all that stuffand all appointments are about
50 minutes and then it ends andso it's really having more.
I'd say structure and stabilityis what anyone wants to look for
.
When it goes to finding, I'dsay, a therapist is like what is

(55:50):
your protocol Right?
You know, like you said, howmany years in business have you?
You know, been and and andsometimes I've, you know, I've,
I've asked you know like, well,what, what is your success rate,
whatever it is they're you knowworking on, and you can flat
out tell them I'm notcomfortable with this, this,

(56:10):
this and this set yourboundaries.
I'm not comfortable withpersonal touch.
I don't want your personal youknow email account or personal
cell phone number.
I will call the office, right?
No, literally you're the onethat's in.
That's the thing is.
You're the one in control.
You're the one that reallyshould have the position of

(56:31):
power, not them, because you'rethe one getting the help.

Speaker 2 (56:35):
Yeah, so it should be , but unfortunately there's no
way to change that powerstructure.
Unfortunately, you've got oneperson exposing all their
secrets and telling all theirstuff and the other person just
receiving it, and it's not anequal relationship.
It never becomes one.
One of the things that alsohappens is people come out of

(56:56):
this very afraid.
Oh, of course.
So when we say you can make acomplaint to a licensing board
or a regulatory body, you canget a civil case going.
You can, you know, go to thepolice and report this.
In the 21 states where it's acrime to have sex with your
client, you can go to the policeand report it to the police.

(57:17):
But all of that is very, veryterrifying and it takes a long
time for people to be able toactually do that.
They need to work through a lotto be able to get there.
But those are the three thingsyou can do.
If you have experienced this,it's your own complaint to
whatever regulatory body theywere a part of.
If they are in Batman BC,there's people who there's no

(57:39):
place to complain to a civilcase or a criminal case.
And then, going back to whatyou were saying, I know somebody
who.
It was an interesting questionbecause the question was OK.
I keep hearing everybody comehere and say that you know, they
got to the end of their therapyand their therapist did
termination with them and sentthem on their way and they got

(58:01):
to get out of therapy.
I've been in therapy for 20years.
They said you know what's wrongwith me, that that doesn't
happen.
And she couldn't identify whatthe goals were why she was there
.
It was just like she had gonefor 20 years and the therapist
had done whatever and she justassumed that she couldn't leave
unless the therapist said it wasokay.

(58:23):
And that happens over and overand that kind of therapy leaves
people feeling not in control oftheir lives.
They don't know what's wrongwith them, they don't know why
they're going, they don't knowwhat they're supposed to be
working on and they'recompletely dependent on that
person every week to tell themyou did good or whatever.

(58:45):
So it's.
It's.

Speaker 1 (58:47):
That's not the way to do therapy either well, the
standard protocol is in threemonths or six months you do an
assessment review.
Where are you?
You ask them the same checklistlist questions how is your
sleeping?
Are you engaging in any hobbies?
You know you go over the thingsyou're struggling with and you

(59:08):
rate them from a scale of one to10.
Where are you at?
And you compare notes and youhave an annual review, literally
when it gets to the year end.
Let's go over your goals, let'sgo where you're at.
If you're not having that,there's something wrong.
There's something wrong.
There's something.
I tell everyone that because Ihave met people that have been

(59:30):
in therapy, like you said, for10 years, 15 years.
I have a conversation with themand in 15 minutes, I nailed met
people that have been intherapy, like you said, for 10
years, 15 years.
I have a conversation with themand in 15 minutes I nailed them
like that Right, and I'm likethis is your issue, this is what
you should be doing, this isthe homework you should have,
these are the tools you shouldbe working on and they're like
wow, my therapist never saidanything like that and I said,

(59:51):
well, then you're just venting.
Yes, go there, you vent, youvent or you listen to their
issues and then they're like oh,great conversation and you
leave.
They're not giving you homework, they're not giving you tools.
If they don't, they suck.

Speaker 2 (01:00:08):
Yeah, yeah, I agree with you.
So the only other thing Ireally want people to know is
that you may feel alone in thisand physically you may be alone,
but there is a wholecommunities out here of
survivors now who've gonethrough this, who are going to
understand.
If your friends and familydon't know how to understand
this, there are people out therethat can and that you can heal

(01:00:31):
from it.
It does feel like you'll neverbe the same and you may not be
the same, but you will get to aplace where you are okay.
And again just saying, mosttherapists are good and we just
need to start figuring out a wayto weed out the bad ones and
start making sure that thisprofession stays safe for its
clients.

Speaker 1 (01:00:51):
So all right, well, and that it holds its integrity.
Because I I mean, I was I wasshocked, but then, at the same
time, not shocked because in inmy business, I've heard horror
stories about hypnotherapiststhat I was just like, are you
kidding me?
Ouch.
And it's just there, you, wegot to ask the right questions

(01:01:17):
and kind of it's like have onefoot in and one foot out,
because you get to decide ifthey're the right fit for you.
And so that's why I tell people, even when they call me and
they want to work with me, I'mlike you need to still shop
around.
I want you to find the rightfit for you.

(01:01:37):
It might be me, it might not beme, but that's okay.
It's all about you forming arapport and a relationship with
this person, because you'regoing to talk about personal
stuff and you want to make surethat you trust them, you feel
safe, and these are.
And I even tell people ask themthese questions.

(01:01:57):
If they're not going to answerthese questions for you, like
I'm answering, then that's a redflag.
Yeah, I want to ask thesespecific questions and you know,
because it's all about yoursafety, your security, your
peace of mind your safety, yoursecurity, your peace of mind,

(01:02:17):
yeah, and you moving forward.

Speaker 2 (01:02:18):
It's.
This is your therapy process,right, and so it really is
something that clients need toneed to be able to own, and
that's not necessarily going tochange that power imbalance, but
it is going to give yousomething to bounce against.
Whether you know, whether ornot, is this a good therapy
process for me or not?

Speaker 1 (01:02:38):
And see if they offer like a free consultation over
the phone so you don't have tophysically be in the office.
You could have a checklist.
These are the questions I wantto ask you.
Can you email me a copy of yourcode of conduct, or is your
code of conduct up on yourwebsite?
You know you can ask all thesequestions without physically

(01:03:01):
being there.
You can even say can we do it?
You know like a Zoom meetingwhere it's just 15 minutes of me
asking.

Speaker 2 (01:03:09):
you know a series of questions asking you know, a
series of questions.
I really love the idea that youhave your code of conduct on
your website.
I just think that that is.
That is excellent, the onlything that I've ever found with
therapists here and I'm not anexpert on it but there was a
psychiatrist who had a note onhis wall that said I'm with the

(01:03:30):
College of Physicians andSurgeons and if you have a
complaint, this is where you go.
But it was just a little tinything on the side, you know, it
wasn't something he handed outto people that they could take
away with them.
And another therapist that saidI'm on RCC and I'm registered
with the BCACC and right, youknow those kinds of things, but
is really rare to have thathappen here.

(01:03:53):
This is very, very rare.
The other thing that we'refinding and I really want to
talk about that I miss saying isthat we have up here this and I
know it happens everywhere tosome degree but in the code of
conduct there's this idea thatyou can wait two years.
So if you terminate with aclient two years later, you can

(01:04:14):
have an intimate relationshipwith them.
And I'm currently on a crusadeto get that thrown out, because
we're finding over and over andover abusive therapists using
that as a loophole.
So, for instance, I justinterviewed a guy yesterday
whose therapist saw him forthree months and then said okay,
I'm going to fire you because Iwant to develop a relationship

(01:04:36):
with you outside of therapy.
So I'm firing you, and the nextday they went out for coffee
and had sex.
So there's this way.
They're basically using it.
So we have abusive therapistswho are going pro bono and so
there's no financial record thatthey were being paid.
They will throw out medicalnotes to you know, get rid of

(01:05:00):
evidence that it was within thetwo years.
We have situations where abusivetherapists will just hold
somebody on hold and in limbofor that two and a half years.
So they're still talking tothem, they're still having
conversations on the phone,they're still doing therapy, but
they wait that two years toengage in a sexual relationship.

(01:05:22):
So they didn't actually quittherapy, they didn't give up any
power and control.
They just extended this thingout in such a way that it made
it look like they had done thetwo years.
So we have we need to get ridof it.
We know that when you're atherapist, you're the therapist
and that's a lifelong thing,there shouldn't be a two-year or

(01:05:43):
three-year interval between endof therapy and the beginning of
an intimate relationship.
And, as I say, you know thereare billions of people in the
planet.
You don't need one.
You know it.
It's not necessary.
Um, and if you're soulmates,you kind of screwed up in this
life and you have to redo it inthe next one because it's not

(01:06:04):
okay, it'll never be okay soyeah, anyway so where can people
find you?

Speaker 1 (01:06:13):
I I mean just tell us all the links, websites, you
know all this stuff because it'sit's important, it's vital.
Yes, I will create a blog postso I will have all that in there
.
But some people like say, in anemergency, right now, is like
no, I need this now.

Speaker 2 (01:06:33):
So yeah, that's okay.
So the best thing they can do,the easiest thing they can do,
is Google my name, which isBernadine Fox, b-e-r-n-a-d-i-n-e
, last name Fox F-O-X.
Like the animal, I'm fairlyfindable on Google and and, of

(01:06:53):
course, on google um and um.
And of course, there's thecoming to voiceca website, which
includes all kinds ofinformation.
You can also find me onlinktree slash bernadine fox.
You can find my radio show.
It's called rethreading madness.
It's all one word rethreadingmadnessca.
There's a website.
You can find all the all theradio shows up as podcasts,

(01:07:16):
wherever you stream your podcastfrom.
You can also contact TEL, whichis the Therapy Exploitation
Linkline Long name, but theirwebsite is called
therapyabuseorg and so all ofthose things will get you to me.

(01:07:39):
I'm fairly visible and outthere and easily accessible, so
and I will make sure you haveall of that as well so that you
can put that up on your blog.
Thank you, thank you for doingthis.
It's a very, very, very, veryimportant topic and if we can do
these things and just oneperson I always hate this
comment, I always think it'soverused.
But honestly, if one personsitting in therapy going I don't

(01:08:03):
think you should be doing thatand leaves and avoids the harm,
we may have saved a life, quitefrankly.
So thank you.

Speaker 1 (01:08:13):
Yeah, we may have saved a life, quite frankly.
So thank you.
Yeah, no, you you have, becauseI had a really good friend.
That was, you know, she I don'twant to call it abuse, but it
to me it was unethical is shewould go to this therapist and
vent and vent and vent and getall worked up and the therapist

(01:08:34):
wouldn't give her any tools andwould say, oh, that was a great
session, you got a lot off yourchest, and she would leave and
be irritated.
And her husband was the onethat told me about it.
He's like I hate her therapist.
She goes to the therapist, shebrings out all this painful
stuff, gets her so worked up andthen she lets her go and then

(01:08:57):
she comes home and she's mad andshe's irritable and she didn't
give her tools to or solutionsto calm down.
How can you think about thisdifferently?
Shift your perspective.
He's like I ended up becomingthe therapist in the household
and she was paying for thistherapy.
Yeah, I had to tell you knowthe husband she needs a

(01:09:19):
different therapist.

Speaker 2 (01:09:21):
You know, this is interesting, that therapists do
that.
I got into a place, aftergetting away from my abusive
therapist that where I cried.
I just I cried at the drop of ahat and and I spent months and
months and months cried at thedrop of a hat, and and I spent
months and months and monthscrying at the drop of a hat.
And so I went to therapythinking the therapist was going
to help me, and I cried throughthe entire hour for seven

(01:09:42):
visits.
I even said to her you have tohelp me stop crying, because I
can do this at home.
I don't need to come here anddo this.
And she didn't.
And after seven visits I thoughtI need to spend my money
elsewhere, because this, this,I'm not.
I wasn't processing anything, Iwasn't, nothing was changing.
It wasn't like I needed a goodcry.

(01:10:02):
I'd had a good cry for threemonths or so already.
I needed to get out of my bodyand out of my feelings and and
be able to do something otherthan cry.
So it is really important to tokind of always sort of check in
with yourself Is this therapy,you know, going the way I need
it to go?
Is this healthy for me?

(01:10:23):
Am I getting somewhere?
Am I getting something out ofthat and then bounce it off with
your friends, you know, don'tyeah?

Speaker 1 (01:10:30):
No.
I hear you, because I rememberworking with this one guy that
went in and he was strugglingwith alcohol and went in and out
of treatment, in and out oftreatment, and he'd been with
the same counselor, um, for ayear and I'm like, dude, is she
giving you any tools, is shegiving you any resources?

(01:10:51):
Like, what has she done?
He's like like, oh no, we justtalk and I just wanted to just
bang my head against the wall.
That's not helping you.
She needs to get to the rootcore of why are you drinking?
What's triggering you to drink?
Is it the people you're around?
You know?
She needs to get in depth andthen give you the tools you need

(01:11:12):
to cope with those situationsof when you want to have it.
You don't want to end up intreatment over and over and over
.
It's it's a vicious cycle andthat just infuriated me.

Speaker 2 (01:11:25):
So the therapist job is to lose their job.
Right, that is your job is tobecome unnecessary.
When, yeah, doing what you'redescribing, um, you don't.
There's no way you can becomeunnecessary because that's where
the person does their ventingor they're talking or whatever

(01:11:45):
um, but there's no movement inthat, unless unless that person
um does get a lot out of talkingand does their own work to move
, and people do do that.
I mean, you know I always tellpeople the therapist isn't
healing you, you are doing thehealing.
The therapist's job is to bringtheir training and skill and

(01:12:08):
observation to you and yourissues and, you know, offer that
to you where you need it tomove ahead.
That's their job.

Speaker 1 (01:12:17):
So yeah, because I've always said I'm the tour guide,
you're the one taking thejourney.
Yeah, you're the one that's gotto do the work.
I can give you as manysuggestions and do this and that
, but I can't force you to do it.
And if you're not congruentwith some of the suggestions,
well then let's find somethingelse.
Yeah, and I loved how you didshare.

(01:12:39):
You cried for those sevensessions and realized I'm not
getting anywhere.
I could do this at home.

Speaker 2 (01:12:48):
I was doing it at home.

Speaker 1 (01:12:50):
Yeah, and that's people got to realize that if
you're not, if you've been withyour therapist for a certain
period of time, they're notgiving you solutions, they're
not giving you homework, they'renot holding you accountable,
they're not trying to figure out.
Is it something internally youknow how you talk to yourself or
self-sabotage?

(01:13:10):
Is it external, like a familymember, your boss, a co-worker?
You've got to get to the rootof it, or else you're just on
that hamster wheel just spinning, spinning.
Yeah, yes, treatment shouldstop.
I always tell my clients Idon't want to sign you up for
five or six or so many sessions.
I want to get it done in theyou.

(01:13:32):
You know, from point A to pointB let's fix this.
Let's do it now.

Speaker 2 (01:13:37):
That's cool.
That's a way to do it.
Thank you.

Speaker 1 (01:13:40):
Yeah, oh, thank you.
I'm just like yes, thank you,thank you, thank you.

Speaker 2 (01:13:46):
You're welcome at this.

Speaker 1 (01:13:47):
I really appreciate the time that you've taken to
get this and I I appreciateeverything that you're doing
because I was, I was kind of, Iwas, I was shocked, I, I was
surprised, and so I want tothank you for reaching out to me
about this and and wanting tobe on on on this show.
I really, really thank you.
So thank you, burton deanyou're welcome.